WFB Deja Vu Review – Supernatural 9.03 “I’m No Angel”
Welcome to the second installment in our new series, The Winchester Family Business Deja Vu Review! This all began when we were live tweeting the rerun of Supernatural’s 9.01 “I Think I’m Going to Like it Here”. As we watched the story unfold, we collectively realized that we were understanding so much more about characters’ motivations and plot developments given we knew how the season’s storylines all played out! We thought it would be fun to jointly rewatch the entire season, this time viewing it with the wisdom of hindsight. So each week during hiatus, random members of the WFB writing team will join together to rewatch Supernatural’s entire string of season 9 episodes, in order. We will share with you our insights, hopefully highlighting the hidden meanings in dialogue and actions that we may have missed the first time but can now identify as they are slowly revealed in each plot line.
Having all the WFB reviewers in one place should be a truly unique experience. Some see canon while others see clues. Some focus on deeply symbolic meanings while others focus on uncovering mysteries. We may offer the same observations or we may have entirely opposite views, but that by itself should be revealing!
Even if your TV network doesn’t have the same rerun schedule, you can still watch your own recordings or on-line streaming. Many fans have a rewatch ritual during the off-season anyway, so we are suggesting that we all experience the season over again together. If you missed last night’s show, rewatch 9.03 then come back and read our ramblings, then let us know what you saw the second time around!
Nightsky
Overall: If you ignore the reaper/angel canon upset, this was a very strong, important episode. It was full of detailed information that advanced several plot lines and conveyed significant changes in all three major characters. Misha’s, Jensen’s and Jared’s performances were all outstanding. They are always brilliant, of course, but I was particularly struck by how skillfully they highlighted the subtle shifts in their characters. Misha had more of a lead role than usual, and he carried the story beautifully showing Castiel’s empathy and a believable evolution from powerful, overconfident angel to humble, vulnerable human. Jared’s instant transformations between Sam and Ezekiel were spell-binding. Jensen’s facial expressions, portraying both inner conflict as well as the lighter, more puckish side of Dean, were the centerpiece of several scenes.
This episode was full of classic lines…
Dean: I’m gonna get whiplash.
Castiel: What Sheep?
April: “You look like you’ve been to Hell and back.
Cas: A few times.
Castiel: You lied.
Dean: I did. I do that.
…and crucial lines that moved storylines through pivotal changes:
“Some of you [reapers] have taken your skill set to a whole new level.” Was that acknowledging that the reapers were doing something other than their real job?
“Vanity. I thought I was more important, more effective than I am. Thought I could fix everything.” A key line from Castiel about his acceptance of humility. A decisive moment in his redemption.
“If my grace was the key to empowering the spell, I may be the key to countering it.” I forgot that it was Cas himself who said that!
Random Thoughts:
· The street’s sound effects, showing an overwhelmed and lost Castiel, spoke to me. The sounds reached inside of me and recalled memories of how I have felt in similar situations. They made that scene.
· I forgot how much I disliked Bartholomew and his female lieutenant. I had the same visceral reaction to Bart as I did to Dick Roman, who made my skin crawl every time his face appeared on my TV screen.
· First time through I didn’t notice that the angel(s) Bartholomew summoned came in from two different windows. That really looked like he was trying to fit TWO angels into that poor girl. Never heard of that in canon so either VFX made a slight error (which I don’t believe), or Bart was trying to explode that vessel.
· I wish I had Sam’s on line search skills. He always finds things so much faster than I do. Like 1 click and he gets exactly what he is looking for – articles, graphics, statistics. Does that happen to anyone else? Seriously. Am I the only one that gets huge Google ad lists, then irrelevant links, then 12 pages of stuff to sort through??
· I loved that Castiel sought refuge in a church. That always made a great deal of sense to me. I also loved how the woman in the church talked to Castiel. She took the time to say a few words to help him feel better. She felt so much peace with her faith and was willing to express her beliefs to someone in need. People rarely, rarely open themselves up like that.
· Smart Boys. I like smart boys (when they knew they were being watched/followed by that reaper guy.)
· Also like Sam in his Pink shirt. A lot. Very distracting.
· I liked April. Her interactions with Castiel were so sweet. Too bad she turned out to be creepy.
· “Bounty hunters are like delta force reapers.”
· I was very uncomfortable with the pleasure Dean took in torturing and killing that reaper.
· Bartholomew was Naomi’s protégé. Forgot that too.
· So killer reaper doesn’t allow April to coexist in her own body. Another good point for Gadreel’s consideration of Sam.
· Dean didn’t ask Gadreel to heal/resurrect Cas. Gadreel did it on his own, out of compassion. Cas returned the favor in the finale. Full circle again.
· I found it interesting that learning Bartholomew was massing a force was a turning point for Gadreel. He suddenly felt threatened. I guess unorganized angels didn’t bother him as much. His ultimatum to Dean was more a statement of fact as he saw it rather than a veiled threat. I do believe he would have left to protect himself, leaving Sam to die. I didn’t know it the first time through, but this was a peek into Gadreel’s selfishness, not some hidden agenda of power.
· I am still devastated every time Dean tells Castiel that he had to leave the bunker. Cas’ disappointment and hurt slay me.
Bardicvoice
Overall: Eugenie & Brad are my LEAST favorite Supernatural writers. I cringe every single time I see their names on a script. Most of their stories focus on characters other than Sam and Dean, and they have a frustrating tendency simply to make monsters whatever they need or want them to be to suit their particular story – hence reapers suddenly taking physical human bodies, going rogue, being ubiquitously visible, becoming a subset of angels, and having convenient back doors into Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory; and witches having spells to (temporarily) incapacitate Leviathan, sharing moral and sexual codes across ethical and philosophical divides, and congregating in secret jazz clubs. Say WHAT? Sorry; they simply don’t make any logical sense and I wish they’d go write for shows that better fit their sensibilities, like The Vampire Diaries or The Originals. I love Bob Singer dearly, but I resent his wife and her writing partner working on the show! Sorry, but that’s the truth.
Random Thoughts:
· I hadn’t noticed the first time through that Castiel actually had a toothbrush in hand as he walked to the toilet in the homeless shelter! Wonder what he used it for, since he obviously didn’t use it to brush his teeth … 😀
· I was irritated by the whole “exploding vessel” thing. In the past, angels seemed able to tell whether humans were of vessel bloodlines or not: witness Castiel courting Jimmy in The Rapture flashbacks and explaining why he could inhabit Jimmy’s daughter Claire, or Lucifer seducing poor Nick in Lucifer Rising. Did Bartholomew summon two angels to occupy one vessel? (The angelic light came streaming into the girl through two different windows, after all.) Saying “Not all who are willing are designed to contain Heaven’s grace” didn’t quite cover it.
· The absolute best parts of this episode for me were Castiel’s observations on the human state, including that he had found that people with the least to give are often the most generous, and that there was more to humanity than just survival – that humans looked for purpose and had to not be defeated by anger, despair, or hedonism. That realization made this bout with humanity a significant departure from the bitter, despairing, depowered-angel stoner Cas of 2014 we saw in The End. And the single best scene of the episode for me was Castiel’s confrontation with the praying woman in the church.
Cas: Humans – so fragile. I never – never realized how fragile until recently.
Woman: I guess that’s why we pray. You get dealt such a bad hand sometimes. You need something stronger than yourself.Cas: That’s a wonderful idea. But – What if you were to find out that no one is listening? That God pretty much left, that Heaven had gone out of business? What would you do?
Woman: But that’s not possible.
Cas: I think it’s completely possible.
Woman: You’re missing the point. It’s not possible – because I have my faith.
Cas: But when I tell you the truth …
Woman: Your truth; not mine. Your lack of faith doesn’t cancel what I believe. That’s not how it works. I think you might feel better if you tried it my way. Someone is listening.
That was a brilliant statement of the importance and value of faith to the human spirit. At the same time, however, it also pointed up the danger of faith, because it is so easy for people to tune out and deny the truth of anything that seemingly contradicts whatever they believe in. Human faith in differing cultural or religious precepts and absolutes underlies a depressing amount of both historical and contemporary conflict, and no one can reason with faith to demonstrate that what someone believes is not in step with reality. Think about that for a while in light of whatever you believe.
· Dean being clueless about the significance of “Clarence” still bugs me. Come ON, writers; how much television did Dean watch in motel rooms? How could he possibly have escaped the Christmas blitz of It’s A Wonderful Life? And if he did, why wouldn’t he have raised an eyebrow when Meg called Castiel Clarence all those earlier times? Duh!
· I loved Castiel on the street being overwhelmed by sensory input – sounds, smells, and sights – including things (like jiggling female breasts) that triggered human hormonal impulses he wasn’t equipped to understand. Don Painchaud and his sound crew did a particularly fantastic job on the all-enveloping sound design for those street scenes in the episode.
· I will NEVER be able to accept what Leming & Buckner did to Reapers, starting with Taxi Driver. Sorry. Bad, bad, BAD decisions, in my opinion. For a refresher on why this simply doesn’t work for me at all, see https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/supernatural-university/18268-supernatural-university-sowing-changes-reaping-confusion
· Dean torturing the Reaper Maurice left a bad taste. Whatever happened to Dean’s humanity and his reluctance to torture? There wasn’t any hesitation at all, just business – and with reapers having been converted into angels to have physical bodies, that meant Dean torturing and killing a human vessel with no remorse whatsoever. Okay, so his concern for Castiel overrode other concerns, but – so totally? That just didn’t feel right to me.
· Castiel being introduced to the joy of sex was fun. Angels in the show were always presented as being nonsexual, non-gendered beings in their own true forms, and from what we saw, most of them remained disinterested in and unaffected by the human hormonal responses of their vessel bodies – hence Dean’s frequent “junkless” insults to Uriel and Zachariah, and Castiel’s long-standing sexual innocence. Gabriel and Balthazar, however, demonstrated that angels could appreciate and even be seduced by sensuality if they opened themselves to experiencing the sensations of their human vessel bodies rather than holding themselves angelically aloof and maintaining focus on their mission. Castiel now has a new frame of reference not only to deal with fully sexual humans like Dean, but also to understand angels who embraced human sensuality.
· Now we know that Gadreel’s insistence on Castiel leaving the bunker wasn’t due simply to his fear that the ex-angel would realize an angel had taken up residence in Sam; Gadreel had to fear that Cas, who knew Ezekiel and had vouched for him to Dean, would realize the angel inhabiting Sam wasn’t Zeke at all. Dean accepting his insufficient “logic” about the danger Castiel posed still irks me, but Gadreel’s fear is much clearer than it was before we knew he wasn’t Ezekiel.
Bookdal
Random Thoughts:
· Castiel’s humanity is really about humbling himself and being able to reemerge as a potential great leader – it’s part of his redemption arc.
· Sam is still set dressing rather than a CHARACTER.
· Vessels and consent. So much hate.
· Church scene is the reading rule for the season – Your lack of faith does not impede my faith. It can be applied across the board, even to Dean, whose faith in brotherhood seemed different than Sam’s, at least until the season finale.
· Both Crowley and Castiel have to deal with humanity inside them this season – forcing audience to see the monstrous as human.
· Gadreel/Ezekiel has humanity – the saving of Castiel indicates that.
· Tessa’s death as a reaper makes sense in this context of the episode. It’s an interesting parallel.
· Metatron kind of parallels Bartholomew. This corruption of faith w/religiosity (and a commentary on fandom, in my opinion).
Gerry
Overall: My biggest takeaway from this episode is how much the canon fails irritate me. They’re so unnecessary and take me out of the story every time. I can’t get into the story when I know reapers were not angels in previous seasons and there’s no good reason they are now. That piece of storytelling is going to haunt the show and not in a good old fashioned scary way. Boo!
Random Thoughts:
· I did like Cas’s exploration of humanity. Cas was created with more inborn empathy than other angels, which I think is why he has always kept faith with his mission to care for humanity. In a way, it’s his real grace. In this episode, he learned more about the minutiae of human life, the microcosm, which just reinforced the need for him to return to the macrocosm as an angel. The church scene was lovely, as he tries to tell the praying woman his truth about heaven being a political nightmare of selfish dicks, and she told him her truth instead. Her faith doesn’t depend on facts; it depends on belief. That has both good and worrying aspects, but I think Cas took it to mean his mission had meaning whether God ever returned or Metatron took over heaven. Humanity needs someone to listen and care, and Cas has always been good at that. I think the talk convinced Cas he needs to be an angel, not human.
· I liked the way Dean’s slide into lies was begun because he cares for others. His choice about “Ezekiel” had its selfish aspects, but his choice to use the angel in this episode was made to protect Cas. Unfortunately, that ability to use others to help accomplish a goal, however worthy, is exactly why he needs Sam in his life, tempering the harsh side. We get to see that harsh side in this episode as Dean tortures the reaper for information. Shades of DemonDean to come.
Nate
Random Thoughts:
· 9.03… this was the beginning of the end for this season.
· They really should have let Misha run longer with the “discovering humanity” (again) plot.
· Still don’t get why angels killed priests. Should haven’t had too.
· I bet this “faction” stuff is going to be a major plot point later! /sarcasm
· Sometimes I wish Sam was aware of Gadreel, & we could have had some hilarious back & forth between the 3.
· I liked Buddy Boyle, he should have taken out Metatron in the finale.
· Buddy didn’t have his eyes burned out by looking @ pure angel. That should have been a clue they were weakening.
· “One day I’m going to die… again.” -What Castiel should have said.
· Cas doesn’t have his grace but he still pulls his sword out of hammer space?
· Bart really wants Cas dead. No way he could be a fan or old friend or something? /sarcasm
· Ok, 1 shot of Cas experiencing physical desire, +1 to show. I missed that on 1st watch.
· I can’t believe they never had Cas look at an angel statue & go, “That doesn’t look like me.”
· “Never realized how fragile.” Because whoever remembers S5? lol
· Geez I hate the “relativism” in this church scene. Don’t use Christianity in your work if you know nothing about it.
· “Taken your [reaper] skillset to a whole new level” Yeah, but we’ll never SEE any of it.
· Seriously, why bring in a reaper? He does NOTHING any random angel or a regular human PI couldn’t do. #ragerising
· Funny how Dean can fast forwarded the podcast to EXACTLY the exposition they need.
· And now the high point of the episode. Really hot April.
· When did April get possessed? Why did she spend all day in that shop while Cas was RIGHT outside? I mean it would have been funny had she come out and he was gone. “Awww man.”
· “We’re like delta force reapers. That’s why we’re WORSE at our job than normal reapers!”
· What IF they had left Naomi alive instead of inventing Bart? You wouldn’t have had to change anything.
· Had April been a normal girl, THAT would have been a twist.
· “Reaper for rent after him” So… what about the other one? That was after him via Winchester? NOTHING MAKES SENSE
· “I got lucky” means I spotted you & you didn’t run away for a whole day!
· “Alright let’s go after the stabby girl one at a time…”
· “Sammy you can do magic!” #mst3kPodPeople
· Dean is a HORRIFIC liar. Can’t believe Sam didn’t see it.
· “Castiel cannot stay here” THEN WHY DIDN’T YOU SAY SOMETHING ON THE RIDE BACK TO THE BUNKER?
· Yep, Cas in bunker remains most pointless scene in the season.
***
Your turn! Agree or disagree? Did you see something we missed? What do you think of this episode now?
Nightsky – these articles are fun, I hope you and your fellow reviewers find the time to continue them during hellatus…..
I liked the exploration of Castiel’s “human” story in this episode and that was about it. Interesting how the leaders of heaven and hell have now been touched by humanity, particularly Sam and Dean. To paraphrase Crowley, heaven and hell have been “Winchestered”
On the canon issues, I see some reviewers blaming the writing team but I’m putting the blame squarely on Jeremy Carver’s shoulders. Isn’t it the job of a showrunner to deal with these kind of things and to at least review the scripts, beyond running them thru spell check?
Was a little confused later in the season; Bart wanted Castiel dead in this episode, but wanted to work with him later in the season? Go figure.
I give up on the reaper crap; shouldn’t have to spend so much time trying to create plausible explanations for things (head canon); I thought that was the job of the writers? Someone get back to me when they decide what a reaper is supposed to be. Maybe next season it will turn out reapers aren’t angels but rather a werewolf cult called The Maw of Fenris.
Zeke’s insistence that either Castiel leaves or he leaves didn’t make much sense until we find out he’s Gadreel later in the season. It made perfect sense that he didn’t say anything in the car because if Zeke popped out in front of Castiel, Castiel would have recognized that it wasn’t Zeke (which many commenters on this site had guessed very early on).
Nate is right, Dean is a terrible liar. If the old saying “liar, liar, pants on fire” were true, Dean’s pants would have spontaneously combusted in this episode.
Bart never specifically said in the episode he wanted Cas dead, he hired reapers to find him and that’s all the info we got. April’s torture of him was more for information.
Mick – what do you think Bartholomew meant when he told the nameless woman angel “you will find this mad man, and you will destroy him, do you understand?”
Drat, NJSPNfan just beat me to it. I looked up the transcript in google cache.
“No. I’m very dangerous. Now you will find this madman, and you will destroy him. Do you understand?”
Although a followup line of “But destroy him gently. Not so rough. I’d like him to survive your destroying.” would have been hilarious.
Njspnfan,
Thanks for the feedback about this new series. It really helps us to know how it is being received!
Regarding your comments on the canon inconsistencies, I am undecided as to who’s job it should be to watch out for errors or even deliberate departures from the past. I certainly agree that Jeremy has ultimate responsibility, but as a writer myself (no comparison but just saying), I feel the writer should be doing all their own research. The story is also run past the entire writing team in their meetings. How hard would it be to have an intern or an assistant specifically look for things like this? I know they are all cranking these stories out at break neck speed, so that’s why I would think they could make it the job of a lower level helper. Right now my feeling is that their process is at fault (and Jeremy establishes the process). I’m not upset by this, it’s just a curious gap that could be fixed.
Hey I’ll do that job, and nightsky will be my reference that I have a good head for canon. 😉
Well since the reaper canon doesn’t bother me and it never did, adding more dimensions never took me out of the story. In re-watching these episodes I am finding that I enjoy them more the second (or 3rd) time around. Especially with the season completed the episodes are more cohesive to me. At least so far. I am also re-watching the entire series from S1 and I find I have enjoyed the last 4 seasons just as much as the first 5.
I really didn’t see Sam as fading into the background as much as some viewers did. He seemed to be just as important as Dean in this episode while in control or not. I really loved Jared’s portrayal of two characters almost at once. He really pulled it off perfectly.
And probably Gadreel wasn’t too concerned about Castiel in the bunker until it became clear that he intended to stay and that Sam wanted him to stay. That was always my take on that scene.
I loved how Castiel discovered that even though humans were fragile and mortal they still had so much compassion for others in need. It was a lesson I thought in what the true mission for angels was. To protect and serve humanity.
I know these two writers are the least favorite for some fans but I thought this was a solid episode that I will watch again.
Thank you for these re-reviews they are fun to read.
cheryl142:
Thanks for the feedback! It helps us to know what people think of this new series of articles.
I am one of the people who really liked this episode. I can overlook canon failures, so that issue didn’t bother me. I also felt Jared was a significant part of the show. I specifically say Jared, though, as opposed to Sam, since I enjoy watching Jared switch between Sam and Ezekiel. The acting and change in characterization fascinates me. Sam’s part time presence also makes sense to me in relationship to the Zeke storyline. I thought Misha/Cas and Jensen/Dean were so strong with their stories as well that I count this as one of the better episodes (for me).
I enjoy reading these group reviews of previous episodes. Thanks for doing them! Please keep doing them!
And, I ,too, greatly dislike the canon failures. It’s grating, almost painful. I see it as both lazy and disrespectful.
I am grateful that the amazing cast and crew are able to elevate any material they have to work with…
Booklady, Thanks for the feedback about this new series. It really helps us to know how many readers like our new idea!
So I take it you are with Bardicvoice and Nate in the reaper controversy! 😉
Thanks again for doing these group reviews & encouraging me to rewatch with hindsight of a complete season. The scene with Castiel & the woman in the church is one of my all time favorites. It reminds me of the end of the Faith episode. Also, I find myself coming to terms with Gadreel. I had such hope for him. When he didn’t turn out to be who I thought he was, I had a hard time accepting any of his good points. It was kind of like realizing your hero isn’t perfect, just another flawed human. Or angel in this instance 🙂
Mary9930, Thanks for the positive feedback about this new series. I’m honestly just about as excited for these rewatches as I was the first time around. I find I can watch for fun versus trying to absorb the storyline’s shocking developments, and it’s so much fun doing together!
I also liked the church scene. The show is really hard on religion. They trash God and faith so often that it was refreshing to hear someone express a positive perspective on their beliefs. I felt that was exactly what Castiel needed to hear to have part of his faith restored.
I love these group reviews! It’s great to get the additional insight into the episodes after viewing them for the second (or third or fourth) time around. If you cover all of the episodes as they re-air, these articles should keep us going for a good while. Nate, I’d love for you to expand on the reasons for your dislike of this episode.. any chance that you’ll flesh your opinions out into a full length article?
Hmmm… will this do for you?
http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/2013/11/17/how-im-no-angel-could-have-been-divine/
I wrote it much earlier in the season and now after S9 concluded… I think I stand by it even better.
If there’s more you’re curious about, just ask I’ll try explaining more.
Ah! Yes… I see what you mean. Actually, your scenario not only makes more sense than what we got, but it also sounded and felt like more of a traditional Supernatural episode. They should hire you as a writer. 😀
Hah, you are too kind. 😉
Though if you want to see if I was writing SPN… http://spnverse.wordpress.com/ Also later this year bookdal & I will be releasing our stories for the big bang fan fic event.
Just to tease a bit, I’ve read Nate’s fic and it is superb!! I am so excited for it to be published!
Re-watch brings always new things into perspective. Like me when I have watched all nine seasons and started from season one there is a lot of things in the past that they reflect in later seasons. Even from specific episodes. Some make you laugh and some make you cry and some make you just let out “Oh man!”. In season nine at least from past half the boys didn’t talk so much and when I have watched now the first three seasons their talks reflect a lot to season nine. In a way a ghost talk that was not said.
I’m no angel was a nice episode to deepen Cas. It almost felt like “Woah, that is just what Cas would do when turned into a human” and it was nice to watch. Rogue reapers don’t bother me either and on canon I see it sometimes subjective. My memory might fail me on these but I think it has not been clearly said what reapers are or death. Death is powerful so what is he? Even I cling into clear things when it seems “Hey! That’s not right…” But with reapers I just see that we get to know them more as Winchester does. If we had a clear book about these it would be more clear.
In season one in Faith they called death an angel of death and that they have many different variations in stories. So on my case I have always thought them as “an angel race”. That has well, different powers? So going between hell and heaven is a possibility. And them knowing backdoor to purgatory? Some of them being rogues? Maybe Death is little bit like god and half way he maybe has stopped caring also what happens. Mostly my point is that I might be wrong or right. Others the same as nothing has been put as total fact. I mean, how could Azazel posses a reaper? Are they beings/Angels that has essence? As we remember Anna took also form of her vessel so later with Tessa. Maybe she did too? Maybe she was fond of that vessel. My thinking and memory might have holes but the main point from this memory lane that reapers didn’t bother me in this episode. 😀
Bart and the angels on the other hand. I can tell you that that might have been the least liked part. Don’t know about the split angel essence but I think Bart saw Cas as a threat this part of the season. The bloodlines were also part of the vessels at least with Sam and Dean and Cas but I think angels were pretty desperate to find vessels after they fell so all goes. Some explode and some last a bit and some more. Maybe it is still a blood thing. That is also matter how you see it. And the later when he wanted Cas to join him. Well, things had changed quite a bit. Shift in war strategy?
Ugh, torturing scenes always make me flinch but I saw it also that Dean needed to find Cas and fast as he was in danger. The end justifies the means? I think that acting was branded on Dean this season. And Gadreel did save Cas without asking. I have always thought that he knew that Dean and Sam wanted it and he wanted to help and do it. (Until Metatron happened) but “Zeke’s” fear is definitely clearer when you have seen whole season.
The ending I didn’t like in an emotional way. It wasn’t bad but poor Cas. How he was and what he had already learned about humanity I think he really wanted to stay with the guys. Hopeful and happy and then… Well, Zeke and Dean happened. Credit to Misha to play heartbroken by not saying even one word.
Sorry about the pondering and long comment. I guess my re-watch with not only this episode but earlier seasons make me think stuff too much. Anyway, your re-watch reviews are looking nice already. Many that I know has looked it in a new way when they know what will happen.
– Lilah
Lilah, I agree that I can find logic that reconciles the “before” and the “after” canon about the reapers. I haven’t gone back to look, but I have been distracted by the big deal made earlier about how to kill reapers. Alastair had to trap them then kill them how? Death’s scythe was one way. I really have to go back and rewatch that ep to be sure what was said before.
[quote]The bloodlines were also part of the vessels at least with Sam and Dean and Cas but I think angels were pretty desperate to find vessels after they fell so all goes.[/quote]
I can go with that logic too.
[quote] I have always thought that he knew that Dean and Sam wanted it and he wanted to help and do it. (Until Metatron happened) [/quote]
I have always been a little troubled by how quickly and completely Gadreel changed to accommodate Metatron. He killed his best friend of millennia! He mass murdered. Yes, Castiel was completely duped by Metatron, but Castiel didn’t go so far. I guess he compromised his values in that he killed the half angel (I’m not going to look up how to spell it!) so maybe Gadreel was just more gullible? Gadreel’s conversion over to Metatron was used to reflect and reinforce Castiel’s mistake.
True Nightsky, I wished actually that there would be clear manual to canon. I know that when you think of it and when nothing has been said as fact we can also reason a lot why this is that and so on. If somethings were totally clear I would be okay about it. At this moment all are right because it is not known what is wrong. If that makes at all sense. 😀
And the fast shift with Gadreel… I don’t know. If you remember how Castiel was at start and the other angels. I think a human would have actually called Metatron on his bs. Be more careful and take what he said with grain of salt… All that makes people human. But as Gadreel was an Angel. Perfect example I think was how literal and not thinking himself was when Metatron asked him to wait a second and he did. Literally. And what Meta said after that: “You are sucha angel sometimes.” And I think that is the point. Gad saw Meta’s mission the real mission. First he had doubts and he didn’t feel good about killing Kevin nor his friend. But even his friend said to him that to get what you really want means sacrifices.
That got the other angel killed but it was almost permission to Gad that he was doing the “right” thing and what he had to.
Conclusion is: Angel’s take stuff way too literally but at least they seem to learn like people in the hard way in the end. 😉
Sorry about the babbling. It’s pretty late atm.
– Lilah
Oh, and forgot to add about how to kill reapers what you asked. That it needed the ritual with Alastair and two reapers. I think this can also seen in many different angles. First, it was in the early seasons so angels were little unknown to men and demons still. And the ritual and trapping them were more to break the seal if I remember correctly. Otherwise on that point only angels could kill angels with the angel blade and I don’t think angel’s let that crucial information out to anyone.
Later though like Ruby’s demon blade and the angel blade came possession to their enemies and as the story advances so does the information what we learn and at the same time the demons/Winchesters/add any character learns. So demons could also not know reapers are angels (if it is so) but it doesn’t prevent the ritual be one that can kill reapers/reaper angels. Maybe it doesn’t even effect other angels because it has been targeted to angels of death.
My re-watch is actually still heading to that episode so if I am not remembering something correctly it might be that. I actually think it is nice people remember all these kinds of stuff from the show. It just makes people think. Well, it at least does me. 🙂
– Lilah
I’m just going to repost what me and some other users already compiled on the TV tropes thread when someone asked how do we know angels & reapers aren’t the same. Not sure how much is relevant to your post (I’m without my glasses right now so it’s hard to read) but maybe some of it is…
[b]Me[/b]:
Well here’s the most obvious ones:
[list]
Reaper true form ([url]”http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=23&pid=42848#top_display_media”[/url])
Angel true form ([url]”http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/images/1/15/AngelPossesstion.jpg”[/url])
[/list]
And of course the entirity of episodes like 2.01 ([url]”http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=2.01_In_My_Time_of_Dying”[/url]) and 4.15 ([url]”http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=4.15_Death_Takes_a_Holiday”[/url]). Let’s have fun listing! Off the top of my head…
Why are the reaper traps and angel traps different? Why can reapers be controlled and angels can’t? Why can reapers be possessed and angels can’t? How threatening is Death to God if the former has to rent workers from the latter? When first meeting Castiel, Bobby decorates the room ([url]”http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=61&pid=20238#top_display_media”[/url]) with “everything he knows”. He has to know about things that deal with reapers, so why isn’t Castiel stopped by the room? How were reapers taken into a building completely warded against angels in 4.15? In 4.15, why take the scythe of Death (who may not be happy you did) when you can just borrow Lucifer’s sword to kill reapers? Why not just set up some holy fire? How lucky is it that Tessa found a compatible vessel (AND it said yes) that looked JUST like all the other times she’s seen Dean without a vessel? If reapers are now “fallen” like other angels, how is anybody dying in the world? Shouldn’t there be a rash of immortality everywhere as reapers find themselves unable to get to where they’re needed? Why can reapers track someone despite angel wardings put on them? Why do reapers have to take life & health from one person to heal another but angels can heal somebody outright? Why didn’t Sue-Ann use the reaper to restore her husband’s sight? (epi 1.12)
[b]Lightysnake[/b]:
Why could Alistair kill Reapers in a ritual sacrifice when he had no fucking idea how to kill Angels?
[b]moekou[/b]:
Not only that, but reapers have been in the show since Season 1. Tessa was introduced in the very first episode of Season 2. There were detailed documentations on Reapers in John’s hunting journal. Reapers were a well-known existence.
When Castiel was introduced in Season 4, everyone was in disbelief that angels existed, and a big deal was made about how they have not appeared in the last two millenniums. Nobody knew about what to do against them because it was such a new force out of nowhere to them.
guess it’s all how you view it. I don’t really have any complaints regarding the angel stuff, cas or reapers because the way I see it, they’re just filler. the real story being told here, the true big bads are in fact sam and dean themselves…or at least their inner demons, their monsters. episodes like this, for me, are simply back story and a chance for jared and Jensen to get some well deserved days off. 😉 to tell you the truth, I really don’t pay much attention to the angel stuff at all, it’s a good time to get a snack or run off the the bathroom:D. as far as canon goes, I don’t really pay much mind to it unless it specifically affects sam and dean. I don’t see expansion on the reaper lore to be such a big deal. show never really went into that great a detail regarding them. and given my belief that God likes variety, as there are so many flavors of people, it isn’t much of a stretch to think he created a variety of angels. it’s also not so unexpected that angels would have different factions, different jobs, different skills and that some may even go their own way instead of following God’s intent. we’ve seen angels for quite some time now taking advantage of the fact that their father is seemingly gone.
as far as sam goes, he’s never been a mere plot point in my eyes. as a matter of fact, given that this story seems to be focusing on dean’s monster as well as sam’s, i’d say sam is the key player in this story. It seems to me, for the last two seasons now, sam has most definitely been front and center, just as much as dean has been, given how their issues intertwine with ea. other. as I believe carver has decided to tell the sam and dean story, and have them finally face their own demons, it seems to me, that if one watches the progress of s8 and s9 with a different perspective, it’s clear that the story has been leading to dean’s monster finally taking over in the literal sense. not only that, but it’s in fact dean who did it to himself. look at how it all happened.
dean goes to purgatory where he’s free to kill without guilt. there is no gray, it’s all very black and white and pure, as dean admitted to sam. dean didn’t have sam with him, so dean was in a sense free. dean relates to benny the same way sam related to Madison. sam wanted to save Madison because he felt they were alike. he wanted to save her. dean could relate to benny because they too were alike. benny was a human who became a monster, a killer. dean believes himself to be a killer, a human who can be a monster. this is what I believe to be dean’s inner demon. his lack of worth, his self loathing and his belief that he is at heart a killer. this is the monster he has to face and conquer as this is the monster who has influenced most of dean’s negative behavior, especially towards his brother. dean’s anger at sam for the whole first half of s8 didn’t really make sense to me. sam explained to dean that he thought he was dead, he believed he and cas died in the explosion. sam explained to dean that he drove for months just wandering. we know from what he told Amelia, that he imploded and ran. we learned from hunter heroici that sam was living in a fantasy, running from reality, which, when he was ready and able knew wasn’t his real life. dean didn’t listen to sam when he told him that she had nothing to do with him not hunting. he’d stopped months before. dean decided anyway that sam left him in purgatory and thus he was resentful of sam and he was cruel for a very long time. but after watching this season, it makes sense to me now. I think that dean was angry at sam not because dean hated purgatory, but because dean didn’t hate purgatory. I believe that dean found contentment in purgatory and he felt comfortable there, kind of like when he was in prison in folsom blues. because his inner monster was free in purgatory. he could kill without guilt. sam wasn’t there to keep dean more human. benny allowed dean to kill without those worried glances that sam usually gives when dean freaks him out. benny has no conscience and dean’s monster liked that.
when dean comes out of purgatory, his inner monster is still strong. he still kills with ease, without concern. it’s only after spending time with sam that dean eventually keeps the monster at bay, but not that well. because every time benny called on dean it was to kill and dean and benny together could kill without guilt or remorse. why else not tell sam? why keep benny from sam? there was no reason. sam wouldn’t hurt benny if he’d gotten to know him, not without cause. dean’s inner monster wanted benny for himself, because benny is like him, a monster who kills without remorse. there was more though. if you pay attention, dean kept on sam, digging at him, in sc claiming that sam left him in purgatory, benny was more of a brother…blah blah …then we learn in the next eppy that it was dean who was feeling guilty for leaving cas behind. think about it. once dean got out, he could’ve gone to sam to try to figure out a way to rescue cas, but he didn’t. he did nothing. he got benny (his monster cohort) out, but the angel got left behind. the only other person besides sam who might be able to keep dean human. so I think dean’s inner monster is again at work. dean’s inner demon is doing everything it can to take over the human part of dean and it thought it had sam beat. dean sending that text, dick move and sure to push sam away for good. it pushed sam into giving dean an ultimatum. dean knew he crossed the line there. he was angry, but he also knew that he went too far. sam…the one that keeps dean human. sam, the only one that I believe will be able to help dean beat his monster. when it came down to a choice between benny and sam, it was a no brainer. dean had to cut benny loose. while the monster in him was angry at sam in torn and frayed for making dean cut loose the only other character who dean can be free to kill with, the human part of dean, the part of him who loves his brother, who fights for those who can’t fight for themselves, this part of dean knew that benny would be his downfall. he had to let him go. and when he did, dean was pretty much back to his normal self again.
the second half of the season seemed to have dean trying to make up for the first half. it had him declaring the trials be his job and his alone. sam seemed to think dean had some kind of suicide wish, but now i’m thinking more along the lines that dean was trying to escape his dark side.
dean’s monster fed into sam’s. all the while that dean was deflecting his own anger at himself onto his brother, sam goes on believing that he’s nothing but a failure to his brother. it feeds into his feeling of unworthiness and he’d rather die than disappoint his brother.
dean’s saving sam, pushing him to the point of extreme measures, regardless of any consequences, stems from not only his love for his brother, but from his need for his brother, as we learned back in devil’s trap..he needs them more than they need him. it’s dean’s view of himself that feeds into his need to have sam with him at all time; dean’s belief that he’s a killer, his lack of trust in himself, his self loathing. he told sam once that taking care of him was a part of who he is. it’s the good part of him. it’s the light to his darkness. dean doesn’t trust in himself to be alone because I don’t believe he likes who he is. I think he thinks that sam is the reason for his goodness if that makes any sense.
in s9 dean is at risk of losing what he believes to be the best part of who he is. sam is his humanity so as dean/zeke said.. “there aint no me if there aint no you”. again caver is continuing the story regarding dean’s monster..his lifelong issue which has plagued him since childhood. so now dean has pretty much isolated himself. he tricked his brother and is currently lying to him. he knows and feels guilty about all of this because it goes against everything sam would want. dean has no one to talk to about it. so we start to see his inner monster gain strength again. dean is technically alone and bearing the weight of a lot of guilt. he knows sam will be upset with him, which is something dean doesn’t seem to handle very well. dean is beginning to lose himself to his dark monster, so it makes sense that it would show in subtle ways in how he treats others, especially in how he kills. see his monster has been dormant for a little while, but now with sam seemingly out of the way, as dean has isolated himself from sam, this monster is beginning to stir again. the longer dean lies, the more the monster stirs. when sam thinks he’s going crazy and it’s more than dean can bear, yet dean still remains silent, the stronger this monster becomes. finally it’s set free….. kevin dies. sam learns the truth. it’s not pretty. instead of dean facing sam, he does something worse than sam would ever do…the monster within tastes victory and once dean seals the deal by taking the moc…it’s literally only a matter of time that deans’ inner monster becomes in fact a literal walking, talking, killing, being.
all of this could’ve been avoided of course had dean just trusted enough in his brother to tell him the truth. of course dean would’ve felt sam’s wrath. but it would’ve passed. but you see, I think the monster in dean didn’t want that…because if dean had faced the consequences with sam, and had come face to face with why he did it, then what happened would’ve have. if sam had been more open about his nightmares and his guilt then more than likely what came to pass wouldn’t have.
I think this story is way more fun and believe it or not more realistic. the Winchesters very rarely open up and confide about their deepest fears and their own lack of self worth. I think the boys having to face their issues/fears this way makes perfect sense.
I believe s10 will be the season of change and acceptance. the rebuilding of their relationship is about to begin and they will come out stronger. it’s time for these two to relate as the men they are today. it’s long past due that they start seeing how important they are not only to the world, but to ea. other. it’s long overdue that they actually start liking and trusting in themselves. I think we are getting close….carry on my wayward son, there will be peace when you are done….maybe it’s not about finding peace when they die, maybe just maybe it’s about finding an inner peace. when they are done loathing themselves and finally start liking who they are…there will be peace….and maybe they won’t cry no more. ……then we can have a few more seasons of the kickass, monster killing, lady loving, brother bantering, but always full of brotherly love Winchesters that we’ve been waiting for. ;):D
Thanks for this article, I’m really appreciating these “hindsight reviews”
I also wanted to take this opportunity to say thank you to all the reviewers and especially Alice for keeping this site running! I don’t comment much but I visit pretty much daily and I read everything that that gets posted. I really appreciate all of the effort that goes into this site.
Lynx, It is so good to hear from you! I am glad you like this new series. We are experimenting so it is good to hear the feedback!
Thank you also for your words of appreciation for the site. Alice has a full time job yet she works on WFB at night to keep us all talking! Great feedback and happy readers are her reward! The writers also love the interaction with fellow fans. Even if the “silent majority” doesn’t comment regularly, it helps us to know that there are a lot of people reading and enjoying our work!
Ok, let me see if I can explain the reaper problem in a way everyone can grasp by way of analogy…
Imagine you’re watching something with Superman. We all know Superman, right? He flies, he’s fast, and he’s strong, etc.
In an episode/movie/comic issue (however you’re getting the story) you see a scene where a scientist tells Supes: “You’re powers are growing beyond what we thought were the limits.” (or something to that effect)
Suddenly! there is an emergency! Maybe a mine explosion or a factory mishap. Superman is told: “You have to get there as soon as possible, or hundreds of people are going to die!”
Scene: Superman is riding a bus to the emergency.
…
That’s it. He’s in full uniform. By the time he gets to the accident, most people have died. We’re told nothing else. The issue/show/movie/whatever is by all appearances serious and not a spoof or comedy outing. We’re not told that he’s evil or that there’s some kind of problem with him, nor is there ever any further clarification. All you were told and shown was Superman riding on a bus.
That’s the reaper problem. Besides the fact that they’re not needed (we see them do nothing that an ordinary human or angel couldn’t do, you could edit out all mentions of “reapers” in the episode and change nothing), what we’re shown and told is so illogical from a story standpoint that you CANNOT make any semblance of working head canon. Often just using what is in this single episode, much less the rest of the series.
Ok that really didn’t clear it up at all. What I think you are saying is that supernatural creatures have to have a logical reason to be in a show about Supernatural creatures? With what we have been told about reapers throughout the history of the show I don’t understand the analogy with Superman. And I guess you are right they are such a minor character there really is no reason for them to be used in any capacity. So what I think you mean is that any supernatural creature could perform the duties of the current incarnation of the reapers. Or it doesn’t have to be any supernatural creature it could be Sam or Jody performing those tasks since supernatural powers aren’t required. I’m pretty sure I am getting your meaning way wrong and honestly I am one that just doesn’t get the big deal with reapers. And really honestly I want to understand because many fans have a problem with it. Having just watched S1 (again) I tried to pay particular attention to Faith when we got our first small explanation of reapers. There was discussion about what they were but not what they weren’t. In S2 ep 1 of course we had Tessa possessed by Azazel (yellow eyes) that wasn’t possible I assume until then. Am I correct that they didn’t show up again until S4? Alistair was able to kidnap and kill one reaper and was about to kill Tessa with a spell. That wasn’t possible I assume until then. And then Dean wanted to contact Death so he summoned Tessa. Had we ever seen a reaper being summoned before? I don’t remember. But was that always possible? Then was it Taxi Driver that it all hit the fan? Because we were introduced to rogue reapers that could possess people that was a step too far I guess? And then we found out that reapers were in fact angels. So I am one who thinks that adding to the reaper lore has been done since the beginning of the show. And really until I started reading how that adding to reaper lore had ruined the show irreparably for many fans I didn’t realize what a huge deal it was. I just can’t wrap my head around it for some reason and I don’t think I’m an idiot so I really want to understand.
To Cheryl, *waves hand* These are not the reapers we are looking for. 😉
🙂 😀 :p 😉 Now that was funny!
Cheryl you are definitely not an idiot. I’m with you…I have no idea why reapers are such a big deal and I definitely don’t understand what the big deal is on expanding the lore on it. besides there’s bigger fish than that….what I find most frustrating is when the writers give us a significant piece of information regarding the story and here I am waiting for them to expand on that and it gets dropped. for example last season: dear dead don returns from out of the blue at the same approximate time that “they” give benny the exact location of the portal out of purgatory. given sam told dean he drove around for months before he hit the dog, then i’m going to conclude that sam was with Amelia for approximately 9 months, maybe 10. dean met benny pretty early on it seems when benny informed dean that he could get him out of purgatory. as fate would have it, it took pretty much 10 months before benny conveniently is told the exact location of the portal. then both Winchesters end up at the same place pretty much at the same time. so who were “they”? it’s a pretty important aspect of the story that we were given and yet, it was dropped…..now stuff like that frustrates me….:p
Honestly I think it got dropped because it wasn’t working. Not just for the fans but I don’t think the writers/showrunners were happy with it not to mention Jared. I also I think they really wanted to get to the MOL/trials storyline so Amelia/Don/Benny had to go. It’s too bad because all the speculation went nowhere.
now that doesn’t make sense to me. trust me I get and was glad that Amelia and benny had to go. I mean their purpose was served. seriously though, it would’ve taken about one minute of dialogue, from either metatron or Crowley in one of their usual diatribes to confess that they were the ones who got dean out in the first place. I just feel that would’ve made a lot more sense and given the fandom a lot more credit, than to think we’d never question these circumstances and just blindly accept that the timing of both boy’s release from their own “purgatorys” was simply one lucky coincidence.
a little part of me still hopes that that tidbit of info will be revisited…hey we can all dream right. 😉
Oh I agree it’s just this show has a history of dropping storylines (special children) that aren’t working never to be mentioned again. But who knows maybe in some future episode we’ll find out. 🙂
Huh, nested comments went all pear shape. Guess I’ll do blockquotes then.
[quote]With what we have been told about reapers throughout the history of the show I don’t understand the analogy with Superman.[/quote]
We are told certain things about reapers. One thing, for example (which has been there since the beginning) is that they are invisible except to those near death and certain “afterlife” creatures (angels & demons definitely). You know what’s a big help when trying to follow a target? BEING INVISIBLE! So we have a scene where Bart mentions that rogue reapers “have taken your skill set to a whole new level…” then we see said example of a rogue reaper NOT using a BASIC skill we’ve seen reapers possess since day 1. The audience is clearly told one thing, then shown something completely contradicting it. That’s bad writing PERIOD, full stop, no excuses.
[quote]And I guess you are right they are such a minor character there really is no reason for them to be used in any capacity. So what I think you mean is that any supernatural creature could perform the duties of the current incarnation of the reapers. Or it doesn’t have to be any supernatural creature it could be Sam or Jody performing those tasks since supernatural powers aren’t required.[/quote]
Not that they don’t need to be used, but that there’s no reason for them in this particular instance of this episode and their scenes. It’s called verisimilitude, it’s about plot and it’s about story.
[quote]I’m pretty sure I am getting your meaning way wrong and honestly I am one that just doesn’t get the big deal with reapers. And really honestly I want to understand because many fans have a problem with it. Having just watched S1 (again) I tried to pay particular attention to Faith when we got our first small explanation of reapers. There was discussion about what they were but not what they weren’t. In S2 ep 1 of course we had Tessa possessed by Azazel (yellow eyes) that wasn’t possible I assume until then.[/quote]
See, that’s an example of a good retcon. Later on, in S6, when we see the power of souls demonstrated by Castiel (for example), those earlier scenes make MORE sense now. Why Azazel mentions that demons can’t just rez people (“red tape” and all). Ah but then we can figure out that when a deal is made, demons are given the power of a soul that allows things to be bent. Bad retcons cause earlier scenes to be worse. Example: How can we take Death’s threat to kill God someday as serious (S5) when God’s servants can so easily kill Death’s (S8-9)?
[quote]Am I correct that they didn’t show up again until S4? Alistair was able to kidnap and kill one reaper and was about to kill Tessa with a spell. That wasn’t possible I assume until then.[/quote]
No, he was about to kill Tessa with the Scythe of Death Himself, the one thing so powerful it is hinted at being able to kill anything (conceptually it would also be the thing to kill God) with a spell being a part of opening the seal.
[quote]And then Dean wanted to contact Death so he summoned Tessa. Had we ever seen a reaper being summoned before? I don’t remember.[/quote]
Have we seen a summoning spell performed on screen? Depends on how you count the S5 episode “All hell breaks loose.” But a summoning obviously must have been performed in the S1 episode where reapers first appeared.
I don’t know how to do quotes so I hope this makes sense:
Reapers need to be corporeal in order to interact with those not near death?
Ok if not reapers what then? What other supernatural creature would have worked better? And wouldn’t that creature have also been a plot device to help find Castiel?
I thought that God was going to be reaped by Death not his reapers. So what difference does it make who can kill who. And as someone pointed out to me reapers aren’t killing anyone they are escorting those already dead through the veil. Unless you go by S1 then reapers-can give and take life. But later Tessa didn’t seem to be able to pardon Dean until she was possessed. And then only Death/Dean was killing not Tessa. It is a merry-go-round that doesn’t seem to have any solution other than your own personal point of view.
How did Alistair kidnap/immobilize Tessa if not by a spell? Are demons stronger than reapers? After all Azazel possessed Tessa with help from who, Death? If so why…why would Death care about Dean?
But since we don’t know how the reaper was summoned in S1 how can we know how they are being manipulated/used/expanded on now?
You see my problem, nothing about reapers was explicitly spelled out. And you yourself have made assumptions and connected dots that were not shown. I am not trying to argue but it just doesn’t make sense that reaper lore cannot be expanded period. Honestly though I do appreciate your attempts to clarify it for me.
There is a quote button on the comment box here. It’s the one with the ” symbol.
[quote]Reapers need to be corporeal in order to interact with those not near death?[/quote]
Interact like getting tortured and stabbed by the Winchesters? Why would a reaper want that? And actually reapers have to be able to interact in some manner with the living, otherwise the S1 episode “Faith” makes NO sense at all.
[quote]Ok if not reapers what then? What other supernatural creature would have worked better? And wouldn’t that creature have also been a plot device to help find Castiel?[/quote]
Any of them would have been fine had they at least kept the rules consistent. (Werewolf or Vampire bounty hunters! Using their sense of smell!) I would have just kept the agents as other angels and used the hunt for Castiel as a way for the angels to explore their new situation, vulnerabilities, and the world. They started it with Castiel’s kidnapper in episode 9.01, they should have kept running with it.
[quote]I thought that God was going to be reaped by Death not his reapers. So what difference does it make who can kill who.[/quote]
Basic logic: How in the world is Death going to accomplish the job when his underlings are no better than the other underlings.
[quote]And as someone pointed out to me reapers aren’t killing anyone they are escorting those already dead through the veil.[/quote]
Except when a reaper for an area was incapacitated in S4 “Death takes a Holiday”, everyone in a town stopped dying. Even in Tessa’s first appearance Dean’s body was only “near death” (and not actually “dying”) until Tessa’s reaper form messed with it.
[quote]Unless you go by S1 then reapers-can give and take life. But later Tessa didn’t seem to be able to pardon Dean until she was possessed.[/quote]
You are confusing “unable” with “unwilling”. Also notice that once the deal is made, Dean is just rendered “not dead”, he still has to spend time in the hospital and heal up the old fashioned way, unlike every other time angels heal/rez someone where their injuries are completely (or at least, a lot of them) removed.
[quote]And then only Death/Dean was killing not Tessa.[/quote]
Just as an experienced employee will supervise a new employee. Think of it this way: Around 150,000 people die every day, that’s 6,250 people every hour, or 104.1666… people every second. And that is OUR world (in the SPN world, the rate is probably even higher, especially if you’re a guest star) Yet we never see time stop so Dean can run around killing 100+ people in 1 second. We never even see him teleport all over the world (guess there’s no casualties in some war zones?) which would mean that if Death is the only one who kills, for one day the world had a wide rash of immortality (yet that didn’t make the news like the world wide meteor shower of S8 finale or the surprise eclipse like S6 finale). Heck how can pestilence cause anyone to die in Davenport, Iowa (like the old lady in his care) in episode 5.21 when we later see that same episode that Death is bound and located in Chicago?
[quote]It is a merry-go-round that doesn’t seem to have any solution other than your own personal point of view.[/quote]
Then why bother with writers? Why bother with plot or story? Just grab your own pictures of Jared & Jensen and make up whatever show you want. Like, Sam and Dean aren’t actually brothers, in my own personal point of view. Bobby actually becomes Azazel (in my own personal point of view). All of the story have actually been the fevered imagings of an autistic kid (in my own personal point of view). etc etc This all “has no solution” because the last few seasons of writers are hacks who couldn’t care less about canon.
[quote]How did Alistair kidnap/immobilize Tessa if not by a spell?[/quote]
Are you calling the symbols drawn on floors “spells” then? Because they did have that in the episode.
[quote]Are demons stronger than reapers?[/quote]
If you get enough demons together they might overpower a reaper (it was a group that took Tessa).
[quote]After all Azazel possessed Tessa with help from who, Death? If so why…why would Death care about Dean?[/quote]
No, he possessed Tessa with “help” from the power of John’s soul. Hence: a deal. And why “deals” are so often called “selling your soul”.
[quote]But since we don’t know how the reaper was summoned in S1 how can we know how they are being manipulated/used/expanded on now?[/quote]
What? You think Bart just summoned up a reaper and made it corporeal to hunt the Winchesters because… why? He wanted the reaper to fail? Ken’s rule of plot holes: “if a viewer is forced to construct (or attempt to construct) an elaborate framework of suppositions in order to cover over some hole in a film’s plot, then somebody on the production side of things hasn’t been doing their job.”
[quote]You see my problem, nothing about reapers was explicitly spelled out.[/quote]
…By that logic nothing about ANYTHING in this show has been explicitly spelled out.
[quote]And you yourself have made assumptions and connected dots that were not shown.[/quote]
In some places (well, just the Azazel possessing Tessa scene actually), otherwise everything else is explicitly shown or told in the show.
[quote]I am not trying to argue but it just doesn’t make sense that reaper lore cannot be expanded period. Honestly though I do appreciate your attempts to clarify it for me.[/quote]
ARGH, nobody’s saying reaper lore cannot be expanded, “period”. What we’re saying is that when it is expanded the expansion must be logically consistent with what was before, AND within the story itself. Which is why there was very little objection to tweaks & expansions to reapers up until “Taxi Driver”. A simple line of “if you go rogue, you lose Death’s protection and more things can off you” would paper over a lot of problems (instead of “oh you’re more powerful than before!”) and be consistent with the earlier world building. And having a reaper NOT be invisible when there is EVERY reason within the story for he/she/it to BE invisible (or like Superman riding a bus when he has every story, logic, and motivational reason to fly) is inconsistent with the story itself. It. Is. Bad. Writing.
I know you are losing your patience with me but I can argue the other side of each of your points. The reapers are a hot button issue with many fans that I just can’t wrap my head around (it’s like getting hit on the side of my head with a cotton ball, I’m sure you’d like to use a baseball bat :). It just won’t go in). I’ll only answer a few of your points and then you should probably just chalk me up to a lost cause.
I doubt the reaper planned on being captured by Sam and Dean. And since he was corporeal maybe changing back in an instant wasn’t possible.
I just assumed that the reaper was used because angels couldn’t find Castiel. I don’t think Bart wanted the reaper to fail but I doubt that he cared.
Now see I missed the part where John’s soul was used in possessing Tessa. Since John was alive and his soul intact until Azazel took it how was it used? Was Dean’s soul used to save Sam? I know they sold their souls but I never understood that the demons actually used (how?) their souls to save the person who needed saving just that the souls were sold into hell in exchange.
Dean was alive and healed when Tessa/Azazel saved him. And when did she say she was unwilling to save Dean. Didn’t the doctor say all the injuries were gone and he couldn’t explain it?
Again it was never explained that multiple demons could over power a reaper it was just assumed by the fans.
As far as making up any show you like isn’t that what 99.9% of the fans do anyway. Most times I feel like I’m watching a different show than anyone else.
I’m not sure I get your argument that when Tessa said to Dean you kill/take them and then she escorted them. Even in “IMTOD” Dean said the reaper wasn’t killing them just taking them. If I misunderstood that point I apologize.
Were the reapers trying to kill anyone or just take the ones that were supposed to be dead in DTAH?
See what I mean, the way I look at the show is different than yours clearly. The assumptions and conclusions you come to are not the ones I have. I don’t think I am necessarily wrong but it sure doesn’t mean I’m right either just different. Again thank you for taking the time and if not myself maybe you cleared it up for others that were confused.
Weird, I thought I had posted a reply. Looks like it vanished into the ether.
[quote]I doubt the reaper planned on being captured by Sam and Dean. And since he was corporeal maybe changing back in an instant wasn’t possible.[/quote]
If I’m stalking a bear I don’t plan on it mauling me but I’m not going to dress in a hunting outfit consisting of raw steaks either. 😉
[quote]I just assumed that the reaper was used because angels couldn’t find Castiel. I don’t think Bart wanted the reaper to fail but I doubt that he cared.[/quote]
Yeah but the problem with your reply is that the reaper did nothing that any random angel couldn’t. Or to put it another way, “the angels couldn’t find Cas”? Well apparently neither could the reaper because he had to go hunt for Cas the old fashioned way. Again, sound out the plotline: “the angels couldn’t find Castiel so they hired a reaper that couldn’t find Castiel to go find Castiel”.
[quote]Now see I missed the part where John’s soul was used in possessing Tessa. Since John was alive and his soul intact until Azazel took it how was it used? Was Dean’s soul used to save Sam? I know they sold their souls but I never understood that the demons actually used (how?) their souls to save the person who needed saving just that the souls were sold into hell in exchange.
[/quote]
Like I said I will admit this is specifically speculation but:
1) It is lore (in our real world, conceptually in SPN too) that the soul enters and leaves a body through the mouth; that a person’s “breath” is tied to their being.
2) Later confirmed in SPN in episode 9.17 where we see the released souls all return to their home bodies via (that’s right) the mouth.
3) In episode 6.18 Cas explicitly uses a “portion” of Bobby’s soul to heal himself.
Therefore we could conclude that when a person makes a deal, the demons siphon off a portion of the person’s soul’s power to accomplish what normally can’t via the mouth. (hence why it seems that all deals in the show have to be “sealed with a kiss” – the demons aren’t sucking your tongue, but bits of your soul) Again, that’s just piecing together all the clues of the show.
[quote]Dean was alive and healed when Tessa/Azazel saved him. And when did she say she was unwilling to save Dean. Didn’t the doctor say all the injuries were gone and he couldn’t explain it?[/quote]
Why does Tessa have to “say” anything? Isn’t the very fact that we SEE that she’s NOT bringing him back to life a pretty clear indication? Though she does have this line: “It is for you. Dean. You’re not the first soldier I’ve plucked from the field. They all feel the same. They can’t leave. Victory hangs in the balance. But they’re wrong. The battle goes on without them.”
Also my speculation was that when Dean is healed at the end of the episode, we see scratches and injuries still on his face (I would be linking a lot of screenshots in this reply but I think it gets the comment flagged as spam so just check http://homeofthenutty.com/ if you don’t believe me). Anyway, in episode 4.05 Dean says: “Look at me. I came back from the furnace without any of my old scars, right? (listing off on his fingers) You know, bullet wounds, knife cuts, (holds up his spread hand, wiggles the fingers) None of the off-Angled fingers from all the breaks. I mean, my hide is as smooth as a baby’s bottom,” Like I said, Dean still has a scar on his face.
[quote]Again it was never explained that multiple demons could over power a reaper it was just assumed by the fans.[/quote]
Nope. Episode 4.15 (no screenshots of it but you can see it around the 24:30 mark) demonic smoke appears that’s too large to be any 1 singular demon (and yes, not even Crowley, Lilith or Azazel or any other big-shot was ever shown as “that much”).
[quote]I’m not sure I get your argument that when Tessa said to Dean you kill/take them and then she escorted them. Even in “IMTOD” Dean said the reaper wasn’t killing them just taking them. If I misunderstood that point I apologize.[/quote]
Except in episode 2.01 we see Dean, in a coma but alive, actually start dying when Tessa is near & touching ([url]”http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=23&pid=42848#top_display_media”[/url]) (see also the transcript). His body resumes “living” once ghost!Dean wrestles Tessa away and yes, before you ask, she flat out says that was her: “You didn’t give me much choice. You saw my true form and you flipped out. Kinda hurts a girl’s feelings. This was the only way I could get you to talk to me.”
[quote]Were the reapers trying to kill anyone or just take the ones that were supposed to be dead in DTAH?[/quote]
Reaper is “kidnapped” by demons, people that should die (like being shot in the heart) actually don’t.
[quote]See what I mean, the way I look at the show is different than yours clearly. The assumptions and conclusions you come to are not the ones I have. I don’t think I am necessarily wrong but it sure doesn’t mean I’m right either just different. Again thank you for taking the time and if not myself maybe you cleared it up for others that were confused.[/quote]
The problem is your assumptions and conclusions don’t cover or outright ignore things we have seen and been told on screen. So episode 1.12, we see a controlled reaper actually kill people. Again, 2.01, Dean “dies more” when Tessa touches him. Episode 5.21 we see people die when Death himself is explicitly bound and controlled elsewhere. You need to provide assumptions and conclusions which account for ALL of the data, not just the favorite bits. The idea of fanon and retcons is to make everything fit together. The show fails (and audience like me) pitch a fit when two things are revealed that require either a massive amount of invention on the part of the audience to harmonize or clash so much that one of the facts must not be true. With rogue reapers we either have to assume a whole story like, “angels in disguise like Gabriel was” or toss out an episode or two from either Kripke’s run or Carver’s. Considering how much more beloved Kripke is and that his episodes were generally seen as higher quality, you should at least not be surprised that fans opted to toss out Carver’s episodes
Sorry to poke my head in here. I am not particularly bothered by canon inconsistencies although I know many are. Furthermore I was told by a poster a few weeks ago that it’s fans like us who are responsible for the problem yada yada so I am fine with being on the sidelines here. 🙂 But I just wanted to again illustrate how we all see different things. Quoting Nate —“Example: How can we take Death’s threat to kill God someday as serious (S5) when God’s servants can so easily kill Death’s (S8-9)?”. See, I saw that whole scene as Death just bragging that he would outlive God. He said God ‘will die too’ and I will reap him. In the context of the conversation in which Death was talking about how very old he and God were it just makes more sense to me. He didn’t seem threatening, just matter of fact. I don’t equate reaping with killing. And how that would work anyway is another can of worms. Where does God go when reaped? I’ll leave you to it.;)
Edit: I meant this as a reply to Nate. Oops. All the same conversation I guess.
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