Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×10 “Road Trip”
Warning: If you have not seen tonight’s episode, “Road Trip,” then beware spoilers ahead!
Summary: The episode opens with a long awaited Bob Seger song, “The Famous Final Scene.” The song plays as we see Dean mourn for Kevin and destroy the bunker living room in his rage. The episode centers around Dean and Castiel trying to catch up to Gadreel, who has taken possession of Sam and Dean’s car. To save Sam, they enlist the aid of Crowley, who is known for his angel torture techniques. Meanwhile, Gadreel is sent on a kill mission by Metatron, including the killing of Thaddeus, the now Lestat style angel rock star who had been the prison guard to Gadreel and his friend, Abner, in heaven’s Newgate prison. Gadreel kills Thaddeus and then Metatron sends him to kill a human, who turns out to be the human vessel of Abner. Abner is hppy after the fall. He’s found a family. He’s out of prison. In other words, he’s the perfect victim to show how bad Gadreel is.
Crowley agrees to help with Sam for his freedom. They track Gadreel through Crowley’s connections with the DMV (not really but it was funny in my head). Dean finds Gadreel after he’s killed his old torture buddy, Abner. Castiel does his thing and knocks Gadreel out. In a non-descript torture chamber, Crowley gets to work trying to get Sam to come out (hehehe) but Gadreel has had more than a few millennia to withstand the gnat bites of Crowley’s machinations. Dean gets emotional over the torture, which showcases Ackles’s tear capacity. After realizing that the good old torture method wasn’t going to work, Crowley and Castiel play rock, paper, scissors to determine who gets to possess Sam. Okay, maybe not. Apparently Castiel can outright steal an angel’s grace but still is polite enough to wait for permission to possess a human. Crowley, of course, has no such qualms and jumps into Sam like an Olympic diver off the cliffs of Dover. Crowley gets in and disrupts Sam’s episode of Ghouls, Cheerleaders, and Dean for an important message: You are being possessed by the most evil angel ever. Yes, even more evil than Lucifer and we know how you still miss Luci. Sam is skeptical at first but then Stargate guy shows up and Sam goes Battlestar Galatica back. Eventually, Sam ejects both Gadreel and Crowley.
Dean lets Crowley go (as promised) while he, Sam, and Castiel hightail it out of Dodge before Abaddon shows up with her kinky leather. Crowley meets up with Abaddon and reveals that the true allegory of the demon storyline is actually a commentary on the current political situation of the US. Vote Crowley over Angry Gingers!
The episode ends with Castiel staring woefully on as Sam and Dean part ways once again as Dean continues his self-loathing and Sam is still trying to figure out how to count the many people who have moved in and out of his body. At this point, he’s got more evictions than a NYC slumlord.
What I Liked:
1. Sheppard is always a treat to watch. So witty. So refreshing.
2. Gadreel’s finally gone from Sam but one hopes that he gets his tattoo back before the for rent sign goes up again.
3. Bob Seger song!!!!!!!! Yes!!
What I Didn’t Like:
Does it really matter?
Theories of the Week:
1. I think that Crowley may have felt the effects of his humanity and now wants to be a Winchester sidekick. (Not really – Crowley is so gonna win Hell back.)
2. I think Castiel will have to be careful not to fall into the trap he fell into in season six with regards to fixing heaven. Gadreel provides a good mirror as to what happened to Castiel.
3. I think Dean will get the Gadreel kill.
Please share your feelings, theories, and thoughts below.
Welcome back from hiatus, show.
Hands down, best episode of the season!!
Gadreel, Feathered Castiel, #Supernatural and #ProfoundBond trended WORLDWIDE. It was an amazing night for everybody.
Hands down, best episode of the season!!
Gadreel, Feathered Castiel, #Supernatural and #ProfoundBond trended WORLDWIDE. It was an amazing night for everybody.
Best episode so far. It was raw emotion and terrible acts. Torture for a noble cause- even Dean needs a distraction.Every character had a significant role which played to each actors’ strength. The script was brilliant. Dabb was at his raunchiest with Crowley and Sam. The dialogue was so fast, I need to re listen. The road trip has just begun. Let’s call it a competition for who rides shot gun with Dean.My worry is that now Sam will be in the bunker healing while Dean hunts Gadreel until there is a reason to reunite. Is this Sam’s Purgatory of sorts while Dean goes off in the Impala? Clearly. Mr. SHeppart owns this episode.
Best episode so far. It was raw emotion and terrible acts. Torture for a noble cause- even Dean needs a distraction.Every character had a significant role which played to each actors’ strength. The script was brilliant. Dabb was at his raunchiest with Crowley and Sam. The dialogue was so fast, I need to re listen. The road trip has just begun. Let’s call it a competition for who rides shot gun with Dean.My worry is that now Sam will be in the bunker healing while Dean hunts Gadreel until there is a reason to reunite. Is this Sam’s Purgatory of sorts while Dean goes off in the Impala? Clearly. Mr. SHeppart owns this episode.
I think angel possession runs a little deeper than being polite. It seems to be a part of the “factory settings,” it’s an order/prime directive that can not be disobeyed.
I think angel possession runs a little deeper than being polite. It seems to be a part of the “factory settings,” it’s an order/prime directive that can not be disobeyed.
Fastest hour ever and so much packed in the hour. Amazing. Sam and Dean, love them together and love them apart, specially when it does something good for the story. And it did. And nothing felt wrong or jaded. Even the split up of Sam and Dean at the end, was done with realism, better communication and sorrow and anger in the right place and as it should be. Time is needed apart, even as we know they belong together… Loved Crowley. Always have. And Castiel! Back and better and with some kick in him.
Fastest hour ever and so much packed in the hour. Amazing. Sam and Dean, love them together and love them apart, specially when it does something good for the story. And it did. And nothing felt wrong or jaded. Even the split up of Sam and Dean at the end, was done with realism, better communication and sorrow and anger in the right place and as it should be. Time is needed apart, even as we know they belong together… Loved Crowley. Always have. And Castiel! Back and better and with some kick in him.
Fun review – sounds like there was a whole other level of entertainment going on in your head during the episode. DMV! And I love the slumlord line.
Great episode! Fast pace, exquisite performances, music, cinematography, everything! You are right – Crowley is always fun to watch. I need to learn not to take a big gulp of water when he is on the screen though – I sprayed it all over the living room when he called Dean and Cas Laverne and Shirley. So glad that Sam is free of his boarder now, great to watch Dean try to deal with the effects of his mistakes. It will be interesting to see if Cas is able to help Sam deal with what has happened – and then if Sam is the one that helps Dean accept it and move on. Reminds me of the beginning of season 5 when Dean was mad, but ultimately helped his brother get past his mistake. Ultimately, they know the only thing they can depend on is family – the John lesson that stuck. The Crowley/Abaddon battle should be fun to watch. And, I am so ready for Metatron to be dead.
Cannot wait to re-watch it tomorrow night on demand to see all those things I know I missed the first time. Isn’t it nice our show is back?
Fun review – sounds like there was a whole other level of entertainment going on in your head during the episode. DMV! And I love the slumlord line.
Great episode! Fast pace, exquisite performances, music, cinematography, everything! You are right – Crowley is always fun to watch. I need to learn not to take a big gulp of water when he is on the screen though – I sprayed it all over the living room when he called Dean and Cas Laverne and Shirley. So glad that Sam is free of his boarder now, great to watch Dean try to deal with the effects of his mistakes. It will be interesting to see if Cas is able to help Sam deal with what has happened – and then if Sam is the one that helps Dean accept it and move on. Reminds me of the beginning of season 5 when Dean was mad, but ultimately helped his brother get past his mistake. Ultimately, they know the only thing they can depend on is family – the John lesson that stuck. The Crowley/Abaddon battle should be fun to watch. And, I am so ready for Metatron to be dead.
Cannot wait to re-watch it tomorrow night on demand to see all those things I know I missed the first time. Isn’t it nice our show is back?
GRACE232 Of course I don’t know where you live but here the CW does not come on DEMAND. I hate it but I taped it on my VCR. Stop laughing….
This felt like old SPN to me. Did not think I would be back but this was HANDS DOWN THE BEST EPISODE THIS SEASON. JMO 😉
My favorites were all here CAS, CROWLEY, SAM and DEAN [my badass boo] Story strong, pacing just right. NOW for the re-run…..yeyyyyy
GRACE232 Of course I don’t know where you live but here the CW does not come on DEMAND. I hate it but I taped it on my VCR. Stop laughing….
This felt like old SPN to me. Did not think I would be back but this was HANDS DOWN THE BEST EPISODE THIS SEASON. JMO 😉
My favorites were all here CAS, CROWLEY, SAM and DEAN [my badass boo] Story strong, pacing just right. NOW for the re-run…..yeyyyyy
LOVED it! Love, love and loved it some more. I am just in awe what the writers come up with to make me gasp. It is unprecedented how a show can keep surprising us after 9 years. Cast and crew hit a homerun for sure. Oh my breaking heart!
LOVED it! Love, love and loved it some more. I am just in awe what the writers come up with to make me gasp. It is unprecedented how a show can keep surprising us after 9 years. Cast and crew hit a homerun for sure. Oh my breaking heart!
[quote name=”NOLANOLA”]GRACE232 Of course I don’t know where you live but here the CW does not come on DEMAND. I hate it but I taped it on my VCR. Stop laughing….
This felt like old SPN to me. Did not think I would be back but this was HANDS DOWN THE BEST EPISODE THIS SEASON. JMO 😉
My favorites were all here CAS, CROWLEY, SAM and DEAN [my badass boo] Story strong, pacing just right. NOW for the re-run…..yeyyyyy[/quote]
You know the CW puts the episode up on their website the next day, right?
[quote]GRACE232 Of course I don’t know where you live but here the CW does not come on DEMAND. I hate it but I taped it on my VCR. Stop laughing….
This felt like old SPN to me. Did not think I would be back but this was HANDS DOWN THE BEST EPISODE THIS SEASON. JMO 😉
My favorites were all here CAS, CROWLEY, SAM and DEAN [my badass boo] Story strong, pacing just right. NOW for the re-run…..yeyyyyy[/quote]
You know the CW puts the episode up on their website the next day, right?
First off, I can’t say how much I loved this episode. I do agree it’s probably the best of the season so far.
Anyone want to help decipher the Sam and Dean conversation at the end? What did Sam mean about “But don’t go thinking it’s the problem because it’s not.”
Dean: Alright, let me hear it.
Sam: What do you want me to say? I’m pissed? Okay I am, I’m pissed. You lied to me – again.
Dean: I didn’t have a choice.
Sam: I was ready to die Dean.
Dean: I know. But I wouldn’t let you, because that’s not in me.
Sam: So what, you decide to trick me into being possessed by some…psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what. I was willing to die. And now…Kevin.
Dean: No, that is not on you. Kevin’s blood is on my hands. And that ain’t ever getting clean. I’ll burn for that. I will. But I’ll find Gadreel and I will end that son of a bitch. But I’ll do it alone.
Sam: What’s that supposed to mean?
Dean: Come on man, can’t you see, I’m poison. People get close to me they get killed, or worse. I tell myself I help more people than I hurt and I tell myself that I’m doing it all for the right reasons and I believe that. But I can’t — I won’t drag anyone anybody into the muck with me – not anymore.
Sam: Go. I’m not going to stop you. (Dean goes to leave). But don’t go thinking that’s the problem because it’s not.
Dean: What’s that supposed to mean?
Sam: Just go.
First off, I can’t say how much I loved this episode. I do agree it’s probably the best of the season so far.
Anyone want to help decipher the Sam and Dean conversation at the end? What did Sam mean about “But don’t go thinking it’s the problem because it’s not.”
Dean: Alright, let me hear it.
Sam: What do you want me to say? I’m pissed? Okay I am, I’m pissed. You lied to me – again.
Dean: I didn’t have a choice.
Sam: I was ready to die Dean.
Dean: I know. But I wouldn’t let you, because that’s not in me.
Sam: So what, you decide to trick me into being possessed by some…psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what. I was willing to die. And now…Kevin.
Dean: No, that is not on you. Kevin’s blood is on my hands. And that ain’t ever getting clean. I’ll burn for that. I will. But I’ll find Gadreel and I will end that son of a bitch. But I’ll do it alone.
Sam: What’s that supposed to mean?
Dean: Come on man, can’t you see, I’m poison. People get close to me they get killed, or worse. I tell myself I help more people than I hurt and I tell myself that I’m doing it all for the right reasons and I believe that. But I can’t — I won’t drag anyone anybody into the muck with me – not anymore.
Sam: Go. I’m not going to stop you. (Dean goes to leave). But don’t go thinking that’s the problem because it’s not.
Dean: What’s that supposed to mean?
Sam: Just go.
Alice, THANK YOU. I thought I would be the only one that did a “huh” at what Sam said. I just tweeted out that exact quote!
Alice, THANK YOU. I thought I would be the only one that did a “huh” at what Sam said. I just tweeted out that exact quote!
Outstanding episode! The best I’ve seen in a long time. I actually can’t wait to rewatch it and I’ve only felt hat a few times in the last few years. I am thinking that Sam’s final comments to Dean mean that the idea that Dean feels he is “poison” is not the problem they need to overcome. I think it will boil down to trust and more importantly respect for Sam’s wishes.
Outstanding episode! The best I’ve seen in a long time. I actually can’t wait to rewatch it and I’ve only felt hat a few times in the last few years. I am thinking that Sam’s final comments to Dean mean that the idea that Dean feels he is “poison” is not the problem they need to overcome. I think it will boil down to trust and more importantly respect for Sam’s wishes.
You had me at Poughkeepsie, Team. It was a marvelous episode!
Wow! That was great! Funniest moment: Cas’s car! An Angel of The Lord traveling in a pimpmobile! LOL! I knew they’d get Gadreel out of Sam but that was as uncomfortable as watching Crowley torture poor Samandriel but worse because it was Sam! Not even worried about Sam and Dean because they won’t drag that out long! they’re not idiots! But it was odd seeing Dean leave on his own with Sam and Cas watching him go. Went right back to what Crowley said early last season about those close to Dean dying bloody though so thought that was smart, if not heartbreaking to watch. Can’t wait to see the inevitable showdown between Crowley and Abaddon!
Wow! That was great! Funniest moment: Cas’s car! An Angel of The Lord traveling in a pimpmobile! LOL! I knew they’d get Gadreel out of Sam but that was as uncomfortable as watching Crowley torture poor Samandriel but worse because it was Sam! Not even worried about Sam and Dean because they won’t drag that out long! they’re not idiots! But it was odd seeing Dean leave on his own with Sam and Cas watching him go. Went right back to what Crowley said early last season about those close to Dean dying bloody though so thought that was smart, if not heartbreaking to watch. Can’t wait to see the inevitable showdown between Crowley and Abaddon!
Grace 232 I totally forgot about the Luverne and Shirley quote! Crowley has the best nicknames!
Grace 232 I totally forgot about the Luverne and Shirley quote! Crowley has the best nicknames!
One last thing and it’s not the same as it was then but with Sam and Cas being together at the end and Dean working with Crowley next week it was almost a mirror of season 4 with Sam with a demon and Dean with an angel. Not the same by any means as now they both know Crowley and Cas very well but couldn’t help but notice the irony.
One last thing and it’s not the same as it was then but with Sam and Cas being together at the end and Dean working with Crowley next week it was almost a mirror of season 4 with Sam with a demon and Dean with an angel. Not the same by any means as now they both know Crowley and Cas very well but couldn’t help but notice the irony.
I enjoyed the episode too, although personally I felt the first half was a bit slow-moving. But once they got Sam/Gadreel, the second half was intense and pretty awesome!!
I know some people might grumble that the boys are separating YET again, but to me, one thing that crossed my mind as they had that final conversation was that they really seemed to be LISTENING to each other. And that, for me, made it more understandable that they would spend some time apart. We all know that won’t last for long anyway! 😉
I enjoyed the episode too, although personally I felt the first half was a bit slow-moving. But once they got Sam/Gadreel, the second half was intense and pretty awesome!!
I know some people might grumble that the boys are separating YET again, but to me, one thing that crossed my mind as they had that final conversation was that they really seemed to be LISTENING to each other. And that, for me, made it more understandable that they would spend some time apart. We all know that won’t last for long anyway! 😉
Listening to what Sam said-he was ready to die, no other persons hurt, no retake on death-but Dean could not let Sam die because of what Dean is about. I think that Dean feels really guilty over Kevin’s death but Sam is saying that Dean does not listen to Sams wishes but only does what Dean needs to do for Dean-for his beliefs and his fears. I think Dean wants to get off “easy” by taking the death of Kevin as his guilt/vengeance trip. But I think Sam does not blame Dean for that but for not giving Sam his due-to respect his wishes whether it is to die or to live. Because Dean could not let Sam have his death, Sam became possessed by a “psycho angel”, Kevin died and Dean made another deal with Crowley. I love the Dean character but he seems to be getting even needier of Sam. After all they have been through, he is still not able to let Sam go, still willing to make deals to keep him alive. I think Sam is seeing how much the deals Dean makes causes pain, suffering and death.
Geez, this show is just great-such depth of emotion on a weekly basis. Wow, just great.
Listening to what Sam said-he was ready to die, no other persons hurt, no retake on death-but Dean could not let Sam die because of what Dean is about. I think that Dean feels really guilty over Kevin’s death but Sam is saying that Dean does not listen to Sams wishes but only does what Dean needs to do for Dean-for his beliefs and his fears. I think Dean wants to get off “easy” by taking the death of Kevin as his guilt/vengeance trip. But I think Sam does not blame Dean for that but for not giving Sam his due-to respect his wishes whether it is to die or to live. Because Dean could not let Sam have his death, Sam became possessed by a “psycho angel”, Kevin died and Dean made another deal with Crowley. I love the Dean character but he seems to be getting even needier of Sam. After all they have been through, he is still not able to let Sam go, still willing to make deals to keep him alive. I think Sam is seeing how much the deals Dean makes causes pain, suffering and death.
Geez, this show is just great-such depth of emotion on a weekly basis. Wow, just great.
For #9 alice
This is what I think at the moment, I probably change my mind after re-watch.
I think, here, Sam is the one playing a mature brother. He’s not the-runaway-Sam anymore, which I like because previously he was always depicted as someone who runs away when facing problems. I think besides guilt Dean is also a little bit ashamed because Kevin died because of him. He only saw accusation in Sam’s eyes because that’s what Dean wants to see (remember Dean’s self depreciating tendency). It doesn’t mean that Sam really accuses Dean. So, Dean can’t face Sam while the guilt of Kevin’s death still burdens him. Dean needs to make amends or atone or revenge or whatever to ease the guilt inside him.
But Sam is now trying to be understanding. He let Dean go to do his revenge, to do what Dean knows how to do to ease the guilt in his heart. When Dean said that he’s poison, That’s NOT what Sam means when he let Dean go. Sam doesn’t let Dean go because he’s agree with Dean’s assessment of himself.
” … But don’t go thinking that’s [b]the problem[/b]…” The problem refers to this line …
[i]Dean: Come on man, can’t you see, I’m poison. People get close to me they get killed, or worse. I tell myself I help more people than I hurt and I tell myself that I’m doing it all for the right reasons and I believe that. But I can’t — I won’t drag anyone anybody into the muck with me – not anymore. [/i]
Because at some point in his life, the lowest of the low Sam thought of the same thing about him. It’s one of the reason why he left hunting and go to Stanford. Not the only reason but one of the main reason. Young Sam always thinks that they’ll stay safe if they don’t do looking for monster.
But that’s not the reason why Sam let Dean go. I still hold on to Sam’s speech to Dean at “Trial and Error”. How Sam, after all this time, still think highly of his big brother. The hero worship has probably diminished but he still look up at Dean somehow, still proud of being Dean Winchester’s little brother. Yet, Dean’s main problem is [b]he can’t let go[/b]. He can’t let go of his anger, can’t let go of his hung ups, can’t let go of his resentment for Sam’s past transgressions, can’t let go of his guilt, can’t let go of the hunting life and most of all he can’t let go of Sam. ( I hope Dean won’t let go of Sam because that means we’ll still have a show. I have a theory that since Dean owns so little in life, what little Dean has, Dean keeps for eternity. He will fight to keep them to the last breath. It’s endearing in some way but also hazardous.)
So, that’s what I think Sam meant by saying “But don’t go thinking that’s the problem because it’s not.” The problem is not because Dean is poison but because Dean can’t let go. I think Sam needs to talk to Dean about this. They need to sit together and just talk and with straightforward dialog please.
What do you think guys?
For #9 alice
This is what I think at the moment, I probably change my mind after re-watch.
I think, here, Sam is the one playing a mature brother. He’s not the-runaway-Sam anymore, which I like because previously he was always depicted as someone who runs away when facing problems. I think besides guilt Dean is also a little bit ashamed because Kevin died because of him. He only saw accusation in Sam’s eyes because that’s what Dean wants to see (remember Dean’s self depreciating tendency). It doesn’t mean that Sam really accuses Dean. So, Dean can’t face Sam while the guilt of Kevin’s death still burdens him. Dean needs to make amends or atone or revenge or whatever to ease the guilt inside him.
But Sam is now trying to be understanding. He let Dean go to do his revenge, to do what Dean knows how to do to ease the guilt in his heart. When Dean said that he’s poison, That’s NOT what Sam means when he let Dean go. Sam doesn’t let Dean go because he’s agree with Dean’s assessment of himself.
” … But don’t go thinking that’s [b]the problem[/b]…” The problem refers to this line …
[i]Dean: Come on man, can’t you see, I’m poison. People get close to me they get killed, or worse. I tell myself I help more people than I hurt and I tell myself that I’m doing it all for the right reasons and I believe that. But I can’t — I won’t drag anyone anybody into the muck with me – not anymore. [/i]
Because at some point in his life, the lowest of the low Sam thought of the same thing about him. It’s one of the reason why he left hunting and go to Stanford. Not the only reason but one of the main reason. Young Sam always thinks that they’ll stay safe if they don’t do looking for monster.
But that’s not the reason why Sam let Dean go. I still hold on to Sam’s speech to Dean at “Trial and Error”. How Sam, after all this time, still think highly of his big brother. The hero worship has probably diminished but he still look up at Dean somehow, still proud of being Dean Winchester’s little brother. Yet, Dean’s main problem is [b]he can’t let go[/b]. He can’t let go of his anger, can’t let go of his hung ups, can’t let go of his resentment for Sam’s past transgressions, can’t let go of his guilt, can’t let go of the hunting life and most of all he can’t let go of Sam. ( I hope Dean won’t let go of Sam because that means we’ll still have a show. I have a theory that since Dean owns so little in life, what little Dean has, Dean keeps for eternity. He will fight to keep them to the last breath. It’s endearing in some way but also hazardous.)
So, that’s what I think Sam meant by saying “But don’t go thinking that’s the problem because it’s not.” The problem is not because Dean is poison but because Dean can’t let go. I think Sam needs to talk to Dean about this. They need to sit together and just talk and with straightforward dialog please.
What do you think guys?
ALICE, EireneS, has my thoughts EXACTLY. I am a Dean girl but HE NEVER LEARNS and as kaj said just CANT LET GO.
I think DEAN KNOWS what Sam is referring to and CAS understands too. Cas did not seem as stumbling naïve and awkward as before. I am a Cass girl also but STOPPED buying into the act a long time ago. After all he has been on/around EARTH since the BEGINNING OF MAN.
As I have said I am ill and this is my entertainment and company and I am glad I have HOPE again. We shall see how it all pans out but I thought I might read WFB but NOT participate. Peek every once in a while. I did not check at ALL during the break because of my ANGER STAGE of Grief I still feel for Kevin.
Alas I am A RIDE OR DIE FAN of SUPERNATURAL 😛
ALICE, EireneS, has my thoughts EXACTLY. I am a Dean girl but HE NEVER LEARNS and as kaj said just CANT LET GO.
I think DEAN KNOWS what Sam is referring to and CAS understands too. Cas did not seem as stumbling naïve and awkward as before. I am a Cass girl also but STOPPED buying into the act a long time ago. After all he has been on/around EARTH since the BEGINNING OF MAN.
As I have said I am ill and this is my entertainment and company and I am glad I have HOPE again. We shall see how it all pans out but I thought I might read WFB but NOT participate. Peek every once in a while. I did not check at ALL during the break because of my ANGER STAGE of Grief I still feel for Kevin.
Alas I am A RIDE OR DIE FAN of SUPERNATURAL 😛
mick–thank you dear yes I know about on-line re-watching but they have commercials 😮
mick–thank you dear yes I know about on-line re-watching but they have commercials 😮
I really enjoyed this epsiode. It felt real to me and everything felt earned. Dean really concerns me with this revenge business.
Yes, I think Gadreel deserves some stabby time. I think the real Gadreel is finally showing his true face, that he spent so long in prison he adjusted his POV to a victim and that what he is doing is heroic so he can continue doing bad stuff.
BUT……if Dean kills Gadreel then Dean has to kill another human being to get his revenge. Is revenge really worth it? Would Kevin WANT that? Maybe he needs to rememebr what he told Sam at the end of season 3.
And whast with Metronons hit list? A tortureer/prison guard, a prophet and a screw up Angel.
Does anyone see any connection? It occurs to me that Metranon may have orchestrated all this for a very specfic reason. What if Metranon needs Dean to kill Gadreel……a fallen rightous man kills a fallen Angel….. is this justaposing Sam and Lilith and season 4? To what ends?
Metranon loves his stories but as we all know all good stories need conflict…they need internal as well as external conflict.
Sam and Castiel need to figure this out and get to Dean and stop it. Me thinks Sam has the answer in his head…Crolwy did say Sam has all off the memories of what GAdreel did.
Also…Castiel felt a little off…more angry and fighty. Maybe the alien grace is influencing him?
I really enjoyed this epsiode. It felt real to me and everything felt earned. Dean really concerns me with this revenge business.
Yes, I think Gadreel deserves some stabby time. I think the real Gadreel is finally showing his true face, that he spent so long in prison he adjusted his POV to a victim and that what he is doing is heroic so he can continue doing bad stuff.
BUT……if Dean kills Gadreel then Dean has to kill another human being to get his revenge. Is revenge really worth it? Would Kevin WANT that? Maybe he needs to rememebr what he told Sam at the end of season 3.
And whast with Metronons hit list? A tortureer/prison guard, a prophet and a screw up Angel.
Does anyone see any connection? It occurs to me that Metranon may have orchestrated all this for a very specfic reason. What if Metranon needs Dean to kill Gadreel……a fallen rightous man kills a fallen Angel….. is this justaposing Sam and Lilith and season 4? To what ends?
Metranon loves his stories but as we all know all good stories need conflict…they need internal as well as external conflict.
Sam and Castiel need to figure this out and get to Dean and stop it. Me thinks Sam has the answer in his head…Crolwy did say Sam has all off the memories of what GAdreel did.
Also…Castiel felt a little off…more angry and fighty. Maybe the alien grace is influencing him?
Great episode! I was worried that there would be an easy and quick fix to the Gadreel situation, that it would not feel earned, but the way the episode went, it felt like a significant struggle to get Sam back; that they had to work to do so and that it wasn’t an easy task (unlike Sam going into Hell, for example). The fallout from the whole situation was just touched upon in this episode, so I have hopes that we will get to see how this has effected all of the characters in episodes to come. I really liked this one and will probably watch it again, which is rare for me.
Great episode! I was worried that there would be an easy and quick fix to the Gadreel situation, that it would not feel earned, but the way the episode went, it felt like a significant struggle to get Sam back; that they had to work to do so and that it wasn’t an easy task (unlike Sam going into Hell, for example). The fallout from the whole situation was just touched upon in this episode, so I have hopes that we will get to see how this has effected all of the characters in episodes to come. I really liked this one and will probably watch it again, which is rare for me.
i really enjoyed it as well. can’t go wrong with a bob seger song. i love crowley. i think i want that in a tshirt. he’s by far the best antagonist this show has had and that’s in a long line of awesome antagonists. i believed him when he told dean he was sorry about kevin’s death. kevin really was crowley’s favorite toy to play with. if crowley wanted a dead kevin, he’d have done it long ago. i also believe that crowley has a soft spot for sam, and i felt that long before sam’s blood entered crowley’s body. but i do believe that crowley, like it or not will end up being the king of hell with a bit of a conscience 😆 . i’m all for that. abbadon as cool as she is, has to go.
i thought jared and jensen did an awesome job last night. of course that’s pretty much par for the course. poor sam, he should charge rent. sure hope he remembers to get tattooed again…that’s been apart of him for six years now.
so glad that tahmoh is back. i still haven’t counted gadreel out just yet…metatron is playing him like a fiddle, but i just don’t think he sees it yet. gad is still too set on the idea of redemption to see that metatron is actually corrupting him…maybe that’s part of the plan..metatron is up to something and i think it requires another spell…he’s a weasel, but he’s brilliant. i like metatron , can’t help it. i liked zachariah too. just one of those characters you love to hate.
i liked how they had sam respond. i knew in my heart and i think i’ve said it, that sam will be understanding. he’ll be upset, but he’ll understand. i got that very feeling at the end. at first i didn’t get the ending, i had to rewatch the ep again. but i think i got it. at least how i see it. sam’s comment ” if you thinks that’s a bad thing, it’s not”, i totally believe with all my heart that he was referring to dean’s comment about believing he was doing the right thing. that’s what he felt wasn’t a bad thing, not the fact, like i think dean thought sam meant, that dean should go off on his own. that that wasn’t a bad thing. sam couldn’t really go with dean as he’s not well enough. sam needed to deal with everything, as he knew dean needs to deal with stuff as well. if anyone understands guilt it’s sam. i though the end was a bit reminiscent of good god yall. when sam told dean he needed to walk away and dean agreed.
i’m excited that sam and cas will have some real bonding time. that’s a long time coming. i really think in addition to their part of the story, i think cas will give sam some perspective. i don’t think he’ll jump to dean’s defense in as much as i think his perspective will be more of the bond that these two share and what that has meant not only to them but to the world. i just think that cas’ words will have sam seek out dean sooner than later. jmo of course, but can’t wait to find out for sure.
i really enjoyed it as well. can’t go wrong with a bob seger song. i love crowley. i think i want that in a tshirt. he’s by far the best antagonist this show has had and that’s in a long line of awesome antagonists. i believed him when he told dean he was sorry about kevin’s death. kevin really was crowley’s favorite toy to play with. if crowley wanted a dead kevin, he’d have done it long ago. i also believe that crowley has a soft spot for sam, and i felt that long before sam’s blood entered crowley’s body. but i do believe that crowley, like it or not will end up being the king of hell with a bit of a conscience 😆 . i’m all for that. abbadon as cool as she is, has to go.
i thought jared and jensen did an awesome job last night. of course that’s pretty much par for the course. poor sam, he should charge rent. sure hope he remembers to get tattooed again…that’s been apart of him for six years now.
so glad that tahmoh is back. i still haven’t counted gadreel out just yet…metatron is playing him like a fiddle, but i just don’t think he sees it yet. gad is still too set on the idea of redemption to see that metatron is actually corrupting him…maybe that’s part of the plan..metatron is up to something and i think it requires another spell…he’s a weasel, but he’s brilliant. i like metatron , can’t help it. i liked zachariah too. just one of those characters you love to hate.
i liked how they had sam respond. i knew in my heart and i think i’ve said it, that sam will be understanding. he’ll be upset, but he’ll understand. i got that very feeling at the end. at first i didn’t get the ending, i had to rewatch the ep again. but i think i got it. at least how i see it. sam’s comment ” if you thinks that’s a bad thing, it’s not”, i totally believe with all my heart that he was referring to dean’s comment about believing he was doing the right thing. that’s what he felt wasn’t a bad thing, not the fact, like i think dean thought sam meant, that dean should go off on his own. that that wasn’t a bad thing. sam couldn’t really go with dean as he’s not well enough. sam needed to deal with everything, as he knew dean needs to deal with stuff as well. if anyone understands guilt it’s sam. i though the end was a bit reminiscent of good god yall. when sam told dean he needed to walk away and dean agreed.
i’m excited that sam and cas will have some real bonding time. that’s a long time coming. i really think in addition to their part of the story, i think cas will give sam some perspective. i don’t think he’ll jump to dean’s defense in as much as i think his perspective will be more of the bond that these two share and what that has meant not only to them but to the world. i just think that cas’ words will have sam seek out dean sooner than later. jmo of course, but can’t wait to find out for sure.
Alice –
I think the dialogue indicated that Sam was angry about being lied to, that he wasn’t agreeing with Dean’s assertion that he’s poison or shouldn’t be around. I think Sam was letting Dean have his guilt and work through it, but to me it meant that he expected that they would come back together. It was very reminiscent of the beginning of Season 5 when Sam walked away, at least that’s how I read it.
-Linda (bookdal)
Alice –
I think the dialogue indicated that Sam was angry about being lied to, that he wasn’t agreeing with Dean’s assertion that he’s poison or shouldn’t be around. I think Sam was letting Dean have his guilt and work through it, but to me it meant that he expected that they would come back together. It was very reminiscent of the beginning of Season 5 when Sam walked away, at least that’s how I read it.
-Linda (bookdal)
Great episode, I absolutely agree. And finally, Bob Seger! Sheesh, it only took nine years! 😀 I don’t really have much else to add to what everyone has said before. I need to do a couple of rewatches to get all the nuances.
I’m so happy Crowley is back out there doing what he does best, aggravating the hell (pun intended) out of everybody. And I know that having the brothers apart is always hard, but it sure gives us great angst. I’m so loving this season! 🙂
Great episode, I absolutely agree. And finally, Bob Seger! Sheesh, it only took nine years! 😀 I don’t really have much else to add to what everyone has said before. I need to do a couple of rewatches to get all the nuances.
I’m so happy Crowley is back out there doing what he does best, aggravating the hell (pun intended) out of everybody. And I know that having the brothers apart is always hard, but it sure gives us great angst. I’m so loving this season! 🙂
[quote name=”Sylvie”]Great episode, I absolutely agree. And finally, Bob Seger! Sheesh, it only took nine years! 😀 [/quote]
Hi Sylvie, Wasn’t it only 6 years for Bob Seger? I think Beautiful Loser was used in the opening montage of season 6’s Exile on Main Street. 😀
[quote]Great episode, I absolutely agree. And finally, Bob Seger! Sheesh, it only took nine years! 😀 [/quote]
Hi Sylvie, Wasn’t it only 6 years for Bob Seger? I think Beautiful Loser was used in the opening montage of season 6’s Exile on Main Street. 😀
[quote name=”E”][quote name=”Sylvie”]Great episode, I absolutely agree. And finally, Bob Seger! Sheesh, it only took nine years! 😀 [/quote]
Hi Sylvie, Wasn’t it only 6 years for Bob Seger? I think Beautiful Loser was used in the opening montage of season 6’s Exile on Main Street. :D[/quote]
and don’t forget Katmandu from last year…
[quote][quote]Great episode, I absolutely agree. And finally, Bob Seger! Sheesh, it only took nine years! 😀 [/quote]
Hi Sylvie, Wasn’t it only 6 years for Bob Seger? I think Beautiful Loser was used in the opening montage of season 6’s Exile on Main Street. :D[/quote]
and don’t forget Katmandu from last year…
I hope what Sam meant is that Dean needs to learn that other people have the right to make their own choices.
I hope what Sam meant is that Dean needs to learn that other people have the right to make their own choices.
Great episode and great performances all around, particularly Jensen and Jared. I liked Sam’s reaction/interaction with Dean at the end of the episode; it showed some character growth/maturity and wasn’t the same old thing between the brothers. They both need a little time apart to, as they say, “process” things.
A demon possessing the same vessel as a bound angel? Didn’t see that one coming – very clever twist. And Sam was pretty bad ass evicting Gadreel.
Think I saw amyh mention this earlier in the comments but Castiel’s reactions are a little more aggressive than in the past; maybe a side effect of having another angel’s grace?
So great to have Crowley out of the dungeon and back, though he definitely was affected by the almost-cure/human blood. Always knew he had a soft spot for Moose. Crowley campaigning for King of Hell – a kinder, gentler King – . Looking forward to more scenes with Crowley and Abaddon.
Up to this week, I thought there might be a redemption arc for Gadreel but not so sure now – what a dick, though he is being played by the master manipulator Metatron.
Can’t wait for next week’s episode – Dean and Crowley on a road trip.
Great episode and great performances all around, particularly Jensen and Jared. I liked Sam’s reaction/interaction with Dean at the end of the episode; it showed some character growth/maturity and wasn’t the same old thing between the brothers. They both need a little time apart to, as they say, “process” things.
A demon possessing the same vessel as a bound angel? Didn’t see that one coming – very clever twist. And Sam was pretty bad ass evicting Gadreel.
Think I saw amyh mention this earlier in the comments but Castiel’s reactions are a little more aggressive than in the past; maybe a side effect of having another angel’s grace?
So great to have Crowley out of the dungeon and back, though he definitely was affected by the almost-cure/human blood. Always knew he had a soft spot for Moose. Crowley campaigning for King of Hell – a kinder, gentler King – . Looking forward to more scenes with Crowley and Abaddon.
Up to this week, I thought there might be a redemption arc for Gadreel but not so sure now – what a dick, though he is being played by the master manipulator Metatron.
Can’t wait for next week’s episode – Dean and Crowley on a road trip.
Crowley is similar to a head of state and Abaddon is a terrorist who can’t make deals or be trusted in any way. Crowley will win Hell back. I don’t know what Sam meant at the end so I have to watch again. So glad the show is back and Kevin RIP. I miss your cute little face.
Crowley is similar to a head of state and Abaddon is a terrorist who can’t make deals or be trusted in any way. Crowley will win Hell back. I don’t know what Sam meant at the end so I have to watch again. So glad the show is back and Kevin RIP. I miss your cute little face.
[quote name=”kaj”]For #9 alice
This is what I think at the moment, I probably change my mind after re-watch.
I think, here, Sam is the one playing a mature brother. He’s not the-runaway-Sam anymore, which I like because previously he was always depicted as someone who runs away when facing problems. I think besides guilt Dean is also a little bit ashamed because Kevin died because of him. He only saw accusation in Sam’s eyes because that’s what Dean wants to see (remember Dean’s self depreciating tendency). It doesn’t mean that Sam really accuses Dean. So, Dean can’t face Sam while the guilt of Kevin’s death still burdens him. Dean needs to make amends or atone or revenge or whatever to ease the guilt inside him.
But Sam is now trying to be understanding. He let Dean go to do his revenge, to do what Dean knows how to do to ease the guilt in his heart. When Dean said that he’s poison, That’s NOT what Sam means when he let Dean go. Sam doesn’t let Dean go because he’s agree with Dean’s assessment of himself.
” … But don’t go thinking that’s [b]the problem[/b]…” The problem refers to this line …
[i]Dean: Come on man, can’t you see, I’m poison. People get close to me they get killed, or worse. I tell myself I help more people than I hurt and I tell myself that I’m doing it all for the right reasons and I believe that. But I can’t — I won’t drag anyone anybody into the muck with me – not anymore. [/i]
Because at some point in his life, the lowest of the low Sam thought of the same thing about him. It’s one of the reason why he left hunting and go to Stanford. Not the only reason but one of the main reason. Young Sam always thinks that they’ll stay safe if they don’t do looking for monster.
But that’s not the reason why Sam let Dean go. I still hold on to Sam’s speech to Dean at “Trial and Error”. How Sam, after all this time, still think highly of his big brother. The hero worship has probably diminished but he still look up at Dean somehow, still proud of being Dean Winchester’s little brother. Yet, Dean’s main problem is [b]he can’t let go[/b]. He can’t let go of his anger, can’t let go of his hung ups, can’t let go of his resentment for Sam’s past transgressions, can’t let go of his guilt, can’t let go of the hunting life and most of all he can’t let go of Sam. ( I hope Dean won’t let go of Sam because that means we’ll still have a show. I have a theory that since Dean owns so little in life, what little Dean has, Dean keeps for eternity. He will fight to keep them to the last breath. It’s endearing in some way but also hazardous.)
So, that’s what I think Sam meant by saying “But don’t go thinking that’s the problem because it’s not.” The problem is not because Dean is poison but because Dean can’t let go. I think Sam needs to talk to Dean about this. They need to sit together and just talk and with straightforward dialog please.
What do you think guys?[/quote]
I totally agree…..this is exactly what I meant in my post…thanks for saying it so much better than I did…next time I won’t post before work…no time for editing
[quote]For #9 alice
This is what I think at the moment, I probably change my mind after re-watch.
I think, here, Sam is the one playing a mature brother. He’s not the-runaway-Sam anymore, which I like because previously he was always depicted as someone who runs away when facing problems. I think besides guilt Dean is also a little bit ashamed because Kevin died because of him. He only saw accusation in Sam’s eyes because that’s what Dean wants to see (remember Dean’s self depreciating tendency). It doesn’t mean that Sam really accuses Dean. So, Dean can’t face Sam while the guilt of Kevin’s death still burdens him. Dean needs to make amends or atone or revenge or whatever to ease the guilt inside him.
But Sam is now trying to be understanding. He let Dean go to do his revenge, to do what Dean knows how to do to ease the guilt in his heart. When Dean said that he’s poison, That’s NOT what Sam means when he let Dean go. Sam doesn’t let Dean go because he’s agree with Dean’s assessment of himself.
” … But don’t go thinking that’s [b]the problem[/b]…” The problem refers to this line …
[i]Dean: Come on man, can’t you see, I’m poison. People get close to me they get killed, or worse. I tell myself I help more people than I hurt and I tell myself that I’m doing it all for the right reasons and I believe that. But I can’t — I won’t drag anyone anybody into the muck with me – not anymore. [/i]
Because at some point in his life, the lowest of the low Sam thought of the same thing about him. It’s one of the reason why he left hunting and go to Stanford. Not the only reason but one of the main reason. Young Sam always thinks that they’ll stay safe if they don’t do looking for monster.
But that’s not the reason why Sam let Dean go. I still hold on to Sam’s speech to Dean at “Trial and Error”. How Sam, after all this time, still think highly of his big brother. The hero worship has probably diminished but he still look up at Dean somehow, still proud of being Dean Winchester’s little brother. Yet, Dean’s main problem is [b]he can’t let go[/b]. He can’t let go of his anger, can’t let go of his hung ups, can’t let go of his resentment for Sam’s past transgressions, can’t let go of his guilt, can’t let go of the hunting life and most of all he can’t let go of Sam. ( I hope Dean won’t let go of Sam because that means we’ll still have a show. I have a theory that since Dean owns so little in life, what little Dean has, Dean keeps for eternity. He will fight to keep them to the last breath. It’s endearing in some way but also hazardous.)
So, that’s what I think Sam meant by saying “But don’t go thinking that’s the problem because it’s not.” The problem is not because Dean is poison but because Dean can’t let go. I think Sam needs to talk to Dean about this. They need to sit together and just talk and with straightforward dialog please.
What do you think guys?[/quote]
I totally agree…..this is exactly what I meant in my post…thanks for saying it so much better than I did…next time I won’t post before work…no time for editing
[quote name=”nappi815″] I totally agree…..this is exactly what I meant in my post…thanks for saying it so much better than I did…next time I won’t post before work…no time for editing[/quote]
Agreed, Sam’s outlook/perspective has both changed and matured. I don’t think him telling Dean will help matters – Dean’s gonna have to figure it out for himself. This is not to say Dean is not mature, it goes back to his fear of abandonment (among other things).
[quote] I totally agree…..this is exactly what I meant in my post…thanks for saying it so much better than I did…next time I won’t post before work…no time for editing[/quote]
Agreed, Sam’s outlook/perspective has both changed and matured. I don’t think him telling Dean will help matters – Dean’s gonna have to figure it out for himself. This is not to say Dean is not mature, it goes back to his fear of abandonment (among other things).
[quote name=”nightsky”]Alice, THANK YOU. I thought I would be the only one that did a “huh” at what Sam said. I just tweeted out that exact quote![/quote]
Thank you both-a friend and I were watching it and we did a double take at that line, like “should there be a comma after go, like ‘just don’t go, thinking that’s the problem, cause it’s not’ or was it ‘just don’t go thinking that’s the problem, cause it’s not'” (once we sorted out the double negatives). Either way, it works, it’s just the second one probably is less likely to be Sam’s speech patterns. 🙂
And kaj, I think you are spot on with your interpretation of that quote-I also think it’s interesting that several of us perked up at those particular lines.
Besides that, I LOVED this episode-I adore Crowley and Sam, I love that Crowley finally calls him Sam consistently, and I think the rift between the boys is perfectly natural and expected. I don’t think it will last long-Sam seemed more upset-exhausted by everything then he did furious.
I also love the glimpses of humanity we are seeing in Cas and Crowley;Cas was completely irrational when he blamed Gadriel for everything bad that had happened, and Crowley’s reaction to Kevin’s death was much less snarky then I expected. Yes, he antagonized Dean a bit with it, but I believe he was genuinely saddened by Kevin’s death.
I’m curious as to the clip for next week’s show where Dean is telling Crowley “you are about as far away from family as it is possible to be.” First, what prompted that conversation, and second, on a strictly physical level, does Sam or Dean’s blood in Crowley somehow connect them? That’s pure wild speculation, but this is the “Let’s Speculate” thread. 🙂
[quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”E”][quote name=”Sylvie”]Great episode, I absolutely agree. And finally, Bob Seger! Sheesh, it only took nine years! 😀 [/quote]
Hi Sylvie, Wasn’t it only 6 years for Bob Seger? I think Beautiful Loser was used in the opening montage of season 6’s Exile on Main Street. :D[/quote]
and don’t forget Katmandu from last year…[/quote]
Actually, they used a Seger song in the first season. It was in nightmare,during the scene when max’s father was killed in the garage.
[quote][quote][quote]Great episode, I absolutely agree. And finally, Bob Seger! Sheesh, it only took nine years! 😀 [/quote]
Hi Sylvie, Wasn’t it only 6 years for Bob Seger? I think Beautiful Loser was used in the opening montage of season 6’s Exile on Main Street. :D[/quote]
and don’t forget Katmandu from last year…[/quote]
Actually, they used a Seger song in the first season. It was in nightmare,during the scene when max’s father was killed in the garage.
[quote]Hi Sylvie, Wasn’t it only 6 years for Bob Seger? I think Beautiful Loser was used in the opening montage of season 6’s Exile on Main Street. 😀 [/quote] 😳 Am I red in the face. I thought about it while I was having my lunch! So yes, not the first time for Bob Seger, and yes there was Katmandu last year. So let me put it this way, not enough Bob Seger IMO. 😉
[quote]Hi Sylvie, Wasn’t it only 6 years for Bob Seger? I think Beautiful Loser was used in the opening montage of season 6’s Exile on Main Street. 😀 [/quote] 😳 Am I red in the face. I thought about it while I was having my lunch! So yes, not the first time for Bob Seger, and yes there was Katmandu last year. So let me put it this way, not enough Bob Seger IMO. 😉
[quote name=”amyh”]Does anyone see any connection? It occurs to me that Metranon may have orchestrated all this for a very specfic reason. What if Metranon needs Dean to kill Gadreel……a fallen rightous man kills a fallen Angel….. is this justaposing Sam and Lilith and season 4? To what ends? [/quote]
That is an interesting thought….
[quote]Does anyone see any connection? It occurs to me that Metranon may have orchestrated all this for a very specfic reason. What if Metranon needs Dean to kill Gadreel……a fallen rightous man kills a fallen Angel….. is this justaposing Sam and Lilith and season 4? To what ends? [/quote]
That is an interesting thought….
I loved it, probably the best episode of the season and thank God we got Sam back.
This episode made me think about Dean’s issues a lot. I think that he’s been mired in massive guilt and self-loathing ever since he tortured innocent souls in Hell, so much so that he can’t see the forest for the trees anymore. I think that Dean feels guilty about everything under the sun as a shield against really looking at his behaviour and the things he really should feel guilty about. There’s also a sort of helplessness about him (I’m a monster, I’m poison, everybody around me gets hurt) like he’s not in control at all and is unable to change and be better.
I think that Sam’s quote at the end meant that he understood Dean in a way that Dean doesn’t understand himself yet. Kevin didn’t die by Sam’s hand because Dean is “poison”. Kevin died because Dean made wrong choices in his need to save Sam at all costs. Thing is, Sam didn’t need saving. He was dying, had accepted it and was going on to Heaven.
Dean is really screwed up and I don’t know where Sam is going to start. He doesn’t seem to even realise how wrong he was to let Sam be possessed. He feels it was necessary. He didn’t even apologize!
Dean needs to take a hard look at himself and acknowledge he was wrong, apologize, and promise he’s never override Sam’s wishes again in the future. I don’t know how else the trust can ever be restored between the two.
As for Sam, I LOVED HIM. I cheered when he had his boots on Gadreel’s throat and wanted to hug him at the end. The poor guy has been through so much, yet I have a feeling he’ll be the strong one in the next few episodes and will help Dean, like in season 5 when Dean was going to say yes to Michael.
The only problem with all of this is that it feels like old territory to me. I thought that the whole season 5 was about Dean letting Sam “grow up” and make his own decisions, finally letting him go.
I loved it, probably the best episode of the season and thank God we got Sam back.
This episode made me think about Dean’s issues a lot. I think that he’s been mired in massive guilt and self-loathing ever since he tortured innocent souls in Hell, so much so that he can’t see the forest for the trees anymore. I think that Dean feels guilty about everything under the sun as a shield against really looking at his behaviour and the things he really should feel guilty about. There’s also a sort of helplessness about him (I’m a monster, I’m poison, everybody around me gets hurt) like he’s not in control at all and is unable to change and be better.
I think that Sam’s quote at the end meant that he understood Dean in a way that Dean doesn’t understand himself yet. Kevin didn’t die by Sam’s hand because Dean is “poison”. Kevin died because Dean made wrong choices in his need to save Sam at all costs. Thing is, Sam didn’t need saving. He was dying, had accepted it and was going on to Heaven.
Dean is really screwed up and I don’t know where Sam is going to start. He doesn’t seem to even realise how wrong he was to let Sam be possessed. He feels it was necessary. He didn’t even apologize!
Dean needs to take a hard look at himself and acknowledge he was wrong, apologize, and promise he’s never override Sam’s wishes again in the future. I don’t know how else the trust can ever be restored between the two.
As for Sam, I LOVED HIM. I cheered when he had his boots on Gadreel’s throat and wanted to hug him at the end. The poor guy has been through so much, yet I have a feeling he’ll be the strong one in the next few episodes and will help Dean, like in season 5 when Dean was going to say yes to Michael.
The only problem with all of this is that it feels like old territory to me. I thought that the whole season 5 was about Dean letting Sam “grow up” and make his own decisions, finally letting him go.
When oh when did Dean torture INNOCENT SOULS in HELL…….
He was upset because he TORTURED period. As one should be. There is to much of that on all tv and media. JMO
When oh when did Dean torture INNOCENT SOULS in HELL…….
He was upset because he TORTURED period. As one should be. There is to much of that on all tv and media. JMO
yes, Nolanola, you’re right. I made a mistake. Dean tortured souls in Hell, and they weren’t innocent. And he felt enormously guilty about it, so much so that he’s never forgiven himself. Maybe that’s why he was so hard on Sam and Cas in Season 5 and beyond. He can’t forgive himself so he doesn’t forgive others either.
yes, Nolanola, you’re right. I made a mistake. Dean tortured souls in Hell, and they weren’t innocent. And he felt enormously guilty about it, so much so that he’s never forgiven himself. Maybe that’s why he was so hard on Sam and Cas in Season 5 and beyond. He can’t forgive himself so he doesn’t forgive others either.
I loved this episode. It was so great seeing Jared, Jensen, Mark and Misha sharing the screen. The chemistry is amazing.
I also loved the character development. Crowley’s humanity. I do believe he was shocked and saddened to hear about Kevin, despite Castiel’s comment. And he actually comforted Sam when he was trying to help him evict Gadreel.
That scene was heartbreaking when Sam took on Gadreel’s memories. Seeing Kevin die and hearing Sam’s voice break when he asked Crowley if he killed Kevin 😥
But the humanity has rubbed off on Crowley. He was actually comforting Sam… and calling him Sam, not moose. Wonders will never cease! I think that was my favourite scene of the episode.
Others have also mentioned the change in Castiel and I like the theory that perhaps he is a bit different because of the other angel’s grace. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Like Dean, I found it very difficult to watch as Crowley worked on Gadreel. Sam was still there, somewhere – and no doubt he remembers now.
The ending was so emotional – I understand what Sam was saying. He lets Dean go but not because he believes what Dean just told him. I don’t think he agrees with that at all. But Dean lied to him and didn’t allow Sam to make his own choice. I think that’s what upset Sam.
I suspect it will be Sam who reaches out to Dean after he has had time to process it all.
And I can’t wait until next week. Crowley & Dean, Castiel & Sam. It’s not something we’ve seen a lot of before 🙂
I loved this episode. It was so great seeing Jared, Jensen, Mark and Misha sharing the screen. The chemistry is amazing.
I also loved the character development. Crowley’s humanity. I do believe he was shocked and saddened to hear about Kevin, despite Castiel’s comment. And he actually comforted Sam when he was trying to help him evict Gadreel.
That scene was heartbreaking when Sam took on Gadreel’s memories. Seeing Kevin die and hearing Sam’s voice break when he asked Crowley if he killed Kevin 😥
But the humanity has rubbed off on Crowley. He was actually comforting Sam… and calling him Sam, not moose. Wonders will never cease! I think that was my favourite scene of the episode.
Others have also mentioned the change in Castiel and I like the theory that perhaps he is a bit different because of the other angel’s grace. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Like Dean, I found it very difficult to watch as Crowley worked on Gadreel. Sam was still there, somewhere – and no doubt he remembers now.
The ending was so emotional – I understand what Sam was saying. He lets Dean go but not because he believes what Dean just told him. I don’t think he agrees with that at all. But Dean lied to him and didn’t allow Sam to make his own choice. I think that’s what upset Sam.
I suspect it will be Sam who reaches out to Dean after he has had time to process it all.
And I can’t wait until next week. Crowley & Dean, Castiel & Sam. It’s not something we’ve seen a lot of before 🙂
Loved the episode! Those guys knock it out of the park every week.
Here’s a thought. I haven’t done a re-watch yet so I’m going by (sometimes sketchy) memory, but… Dean, Crowley, and Castiel walked from the MOL bunker to Castiel’s car on their way to find Gadreel. Does that mean Crowley now knows where the bunker is?
Loved the episode! Those guys knock it out of the park every week.
Here’s a thought. I haven’t done a re-watch yet so I’m going by (sometimes sketchy) memory, but… Dean, Crowley, and Castiel walked from the MOL bunker to Castiel’s car on their way to find Gadreel. Does that mean Crowley now knows where the bunker is?
I’m not sure if Cas being a bit different has to do with having another angels grace but maybe from being human for a while. Carver said he’s a slightly changed angel (paraphrasing mind you) because of his brief stint as a human so maybe he’ll be a bit more emotional than we’re used to.
I am, as you are KG_SPN looking forward to seeing some Sam and Cas bonding. It’s something I wish they’d done a long time ago.,I don’t want it to take away from Dean and Cas, or especially, Dean and Sam but for an episode it will be interesting to say the least!
I’m not sure if Cas being a bit different has to do with having another angels grace but maybe from being human for a while. Carver said he’s a slightly changed angel (paraphrasing mind you) because of his brief stint as a human so maybe he’ll be a bit more emotional than we’re used to.
I am, as you are KG_SPN looking forward to seeing some Sam and Cas bonding. It’s something I wish they’d done a long time ago.,I don’t want it to take away from Dean and Cas, or especially, Dean and Sam but for an episode it will be interesting to say the least!
I agree with Kaj as well.
Sam sees that Dean cannot let go and he needs him to, BUT I don’t think that Dean can give that to him, no matter how much Sam wants it. As Dean said, It’s not in him to let Sam go. He cannot do it. Can. Not. Do. It.
As he’s often said, Dean is fine with dying himself. It’s part of being a hunter; part of the life. He believes it is his destiny to die doing the work of a hunter. But he cannot let Sam die.
I think there are two reasons for Dean’s inability to let Sam go –
1. Dean’s life has been marked by loss from a very early age – his mother, his home, the life he knew, even his father wasn’t the father he had before – so Dean clings tightly to what little he does have – Baby and Sam. Remember that Dean only sought out Sam at Stanford after he’d lost contact with their father for a while. I think he has to have that connection to the few people he loves and when he doesn’t have it, he’s adrift, lost, bereft, and life is no longer worth living. He’s been peace-maker for his family because it is essential to his sense of well-being. It is who he is. Jensen’s dream may have been that Dean continued on without Sam, but I don’t see that happening. If Sam were ever truly, really gone, Dean would be, too. He tried living without Sam and it didn’t work. If Dean doesn’t have Sam, he sees himself with nothing. He might go on existing, but he’d be a shell of a man. Not really living.
2. Dean was told from a very early age that Sam is his responsibility. And, Dean owns that responsibility. If Sam dies then Dean has failed. Even if Sam wants to die, is at peace with dying, Dean will never be okay with it. If there is a way for Dean to make a deal, say a spell, reverse time, whatever it takes, Dean is going to do it. The way I see it, Sam will only ever be truly dead if Dean dies first.
I don’t know that there is anything Sam would be able to say to change Dean’s outlook because it isn’t really about Sam, it’s about Dean. It’s not that Dean doesn’t trust Sam or see him as an adult, it’s that Dean cannot let go of one of the few precious treasures he has in his loss-filled life. If harmony is going to exist between the brothers on this issue, then I think Sam is going to have to be the one who understands Dean’s problem and accepts it. I very much doubt that Sam will be able to change it – no matter how many heart-to-heart talks he has with Dean, no matter what Dean may promise. Dean will never let go of Sam, he’ll die first.
I agree with Kaj as well.
Sam sees that Dean cannot let go and he needs him to, BUT I don’t think that Dean can give that to him, no matter how much Sam wants it. As Dean said, It’s not in him to let Sam go. He cannot do it. Can. Not. Do. It.
As he’s often said, Dean is fine with dying himself. It’s part of being a hunter; part of the life. He believes it is his destiny to die doing the work of a hunter. But he cannot let Sam die.
I think there are two reasons for Dean’s inability to let Sam go –
1. Dean’s life has been marked by loss from a very early age – his mother, his home, the life he knew, even his father wasn’t the father he had before – so Dean clings tightly to what little he does have – Baby and Sam. Remember that Dean only sought out Sam at Stanford after he’d lost contact with their father for a while. I think he has to have that connection to the few people he loves and when he doesn’t have it, he’s adrift, lost, bereft, and life is no longer worth living. He’s been peace-maker for his family because it is essential to his sense of well-being. It is who he is. Jensen’s dream may have been that Dean continued on without Sam, but I don’t see that happening. If Sam were ever truly, really gone, Dean would be, too. He tried living without Sam and it didn’t work. If Dean doesn’t have Sam, he sees himself with nothing. He might go on existing, but he’d be a shell of a man. Not really living.
2. Dean was told from a very early age that Sam is his responsibility. And, Dean owns that responsibility. If Sam dies then Dean has failed. Even if Sam wants to die, is at peace with dying, Dean will never be okay with it. If there is a way for Dean to make a deal, say a spell, reverse time, whatever it takes, Dean is going to do it. The way I see it, Sam will only ever be truly dead if Dean dies first.
I don’t know that there is anything Sam would be able to say to change Dean’s outlook because it isn’t really about Sam, it’s about Dean. It’s not that Dean doesn’t trust Sam or see him as an adult, it’s that Dean cannot let go of one of the few precious treasures he has in his loss-filled life. If harmony is going to exist between the brothers on this issue, then I think Sam is going to have to be the one who understands Dean’s problem and accepts it. I very much doubt that Sam will be able to change it – no matter how many heart-to-heart talks he has with Dean, no matter what Dean may promise. Dean will never let go of Sam, he’ll die first.
I completely disagree Booklady.
Dean can change. It’s called character growth. For him to say that it’s wired in his DNA to take care of Sam or than the can’t let Sam go or “there’s no me if there’s no you” is taking the easy way out. Sam’s problems in season 4 stemmed from his issues too, issues with control, feeling like a freak, being broken without his brother. He could have said that he was poison, that he couldn’t change because he was tainted with demon blood, etc., but he COULD change, and he did.
If Dean doesn’t work on himself and change his behaviour, if he doesn’t learn to treat Sam like a separate individual with his own wants and desires, they can’t stay together. It would be totally unfair to Sam.
I completely disagree Booklady.
Dean can change. It’s called character growth. For him to say that it’s wired in his DNA to take care of Sam or than the can’t let Sam go or “there’s no me if there’s no you” is taking the easy way out. Sam’s problems in season 4 stemmed from his issues too, issues with control, feeling like a freak, being broken without his brother. He could have said that he was poison, that he couldn’t change because he was tainted with demon blood, etc., but he COULD change, and he did.
If Dean doesn’t work on himself and change his behaviour, if he doesn’t learn to treat Sam like a separate individual with his own wants and desires, they can’t stay together. It would be totally unfair to Sam.
@41 – Ahhh… at least we’re on a Spec Thread now.
Possibly my second to last post was in response to a conversation about the “warding” of the bunker. And although I refrained from posting details of my analysis, I honestly felt rather like I’d spoiled myself. Cross my heart, I’m not spoiled… but I suspect the bunker’s days might be numbered.
Initially, as I recall, the place had an aura of being Sam’s and Dean’s secret hideout. But I’m starting to feel like this season is going out of its way to change that. As far as presumed good guys are concerned, Kevin, Charlie, Dorothy and Cas know where the bunker is. Sure, Kevin’s dead… but this is Supernatural… there’s “always” an afterlife and there are spells, rogue reapers and Ouija boards for making contact with folks in their afterlives. Sure the gals are in Oz and perhaps it’s unlikely we’ll see Dorothy again. But to some extent, just the Team adding up so many numbers might matter here, and Charlie seems likely to return. She could be followed, or captured and tortured. Cas? He’s been duped in the past… betrayed the fellas. Add in that fans are currently wondering if bad/foreign grace might make all not-right with him. And that’s just the “good guys.” The Wicked Witch has been in the bunker and afterlife rules may apply there as well. Gadreel knows where the bunker is. He’s seemingly not to be trusted. Crowley knows where the bunker is – and his occasional Mr. Softie flare ups notwithstanding… his loyalty isn’t beyond question. And then there’s his phone call to Abbaddon. The guys have used regular phones to hone in on locations. How do we know magical “phone calls” can’t also be traced? Additionally, while Cas did kill the Kevorkian angel, there’s every chance he wasn’t one of a kind. How do we know the bunker’s warding includes “emanations of pain”?
Way… way too many characters either definitely know the location of “the safe house” or can be anticipated might be able to find it.
Oh wait… here’s one or two more possibilities: Since Kevin died, was he reaped? We’ve recently debated whether or not reaper functions and Death’s functions are non-overlapping. So, minimally, the supernatural agent of Kevin’s death was present… which… ah… has me musing on some of this episode’s dialog. 😮 But I digress. And possibly a reaper stopped by the place as well, unless s/he caught up with Kevin away from the bunker somehow. Elsewise, keep an eye out for Kevin to show up as a ghost. But would that be too soon after GhostBobby?
Anyway, I’ll wager that what may prompt the fellas to reunite is the realization that the bunker isn’t a safe hideout anymore.
PS – Any dead MoL (or monsters) who have been to the bunker? Afterlife rules apply there too – Above and beyond any live MoL stragglers who had visiting privileges (LOL).
PPS – Almost forgot – If all that wasn’t enough there’s the question of whether Dean can ever step foot in there again for any length of time. Remember, after the tragedy of the Pilot, Home was a place Dean swore he’d never go back to.
I agree to a point BookLady … Dean will do whatever he has to to protect Sam and after Sam, his friends, and he will try anything to keep Sam alive but he did let Sam go once. At the end of Season 5 when it was the last play they had to stop Lucifer he let Sam open up the cage and jump in … maybe he just can’t bear the thought of doing that again?
I agree to a point BookLady … Dean will do whatever he has to to protect Sam and after Sam, his friends, and he will try anything to keep Sam alive but he did let Sam go once. At the end of Season 5 when it was the last play they had to stop Lucifer he let Sam open up the cage and jump in … maybe he just can’t bear the thought of doing that again?
[quote name=”JuliaG”]I completely disagree Booklady.
Dean can change. It’s called character growth. For him to say that it’s wired in his DNA to take care of Sam or than the can’t let Sam go or “there’s no me if there’s no you” is taking the easy way out. Sam’s problems in season 4 stemmed from his issues too, issues with control, feeling like a freak, being broken without his brother. He could have said that he was poison, that he couldn’t change because he was tainted with demon blood, etc., but he COULD change, and he did.
If Dean doesn’t work on himself and change his behaviour, if he doesn’t learn to treat Sam like a separate individual with his own wants and desires, they can’t stay together. It would be totally unfair to Sam.[/quote]
Exactly! He just has to want to change. It’s not on Sam to adjust his whole just because Dean has problems. Sam has a right to live his own life the way he wants to. That’s what Dean needs to accept. I don’t see how they can be brothers and equals unless Dean makes that change.
[quote]I completely disagree Booklady.
Dean can change. It’s called character growth. For him to say that it’s wired in his DNA to take care of Sam or than the can’t let Sam go or “there’s no me if there’s no you” is taking the easy way out. Sam’s problems in season 4 stemmed from his issues too, issues with control, feeling like a freak, being broken without his brother. He could have said that he was poison, that he couldn’t change because he was tainted with demon blood, etc., but he COULD change, and he did.
If Dean doesn’t work on himself and change his behaviour, if he doesn’t learn to treat Sam like a separate individual with his own wants and desires, they can’t stay together. It would be totally unfair to Sam.[/quote]
Exactly! He just has to want to change. It’s not on Sam to adjust his whole just because Dean has problems. Sam has a right to live his own life the way he wants to. That’s what Dean needs to accept. I don’t see how they can be brothers and equals unless Dean makes that change.
[quote name=”GwenT”]Loved the episode! Those guys knock it out of the park every week.
Here’s a thought. I haven’t done a re-watch yet so I’m going by (sometimes sketchy) memory, but… Dean, Crowley, and Castiel walked from the MOL bunker to Castiel’s car on their way to find Gadreel. Does that mean Crowley now knows where the bunker is?[/quote]
They had hooded him on the way in; just guessing they did the same on the way out. But… Gadreel knows the location.
[quote]Loved the episode! Those guys knock it out of the park every week.
Here’s a thought. I haven’t done a re-watch yet so I’m going by (sometimes sketchy) memory, but… Dean, Crowley, and Castiel walked from the MOL bunker to Castiel’s car on their way to find Gadreel. Does that mean Crowley now knows where the bunker is?[/quote]
They had hooded him on the way in; just guessing they did the same on the way out. But… Gadreel knows the location.
First, Dean had no reason to believe that the angel possessing Sam, though not Ezekiel, was a threat to Kevin. We knew about Metatron but Dean didn’t and Kevin and the possessing angel had been in the bunker together for months with no bad consequences. Also the possessing angel had saved Cas, without being asked and Charlie when asked. As Dean saw it at the time, the problem was getting Sam unpossessed so the angel couldn’t leave in Sam’s body.
Second, it is really hard for Dean to know if Sam really was willing to die because he says different things at different times. At the end of S8 he was ready to die and then at Dean’s urging “let it go.” He’s a hunter and then he’s not.
Third, Sam is well aware of the lengths Dean will go to save him and yet when Dean said he had a plan Sam did not insist on knowing the plan and approving it before he said yes to the plan. So part of him must have wanted to live, whatever the plan was.
Dean is guilty of lying to keep Sam healing in the angel. He is guilty of trusting the wrong person (angel). He is guilty of never giving up on the people he loves. He is not responsible for Kevin being dead. I’m sure Metatron would have found a way to do that regardless. Dean was only part of the domino effect that Metatron started when he booted the angels out of heaven by duping Cas.
Dean is always Dean and just because he feels guilty and responsible doesn’t mean he is. Sam is a grown man and can leave Dean anytime he wants to and make all his own decisions but chooses not to. That’s on Sam. Dean offered him that choice again in S8 with no hard feelings.
Is Dean immature, selfish, crazy and everything else that has been said about him this season? Not to me. He’s Dean Winchester, badass hunter, loyal friend and
loving overprotective brother who never quits or gives up. He a human being making the best decisions he can when no decision will be totally right in very difficult circumstances and trying to set things right when he can. I hope he never changes.
I realize I see things differently then most people and that is fine by me and I definitely don’t want to start a big brouhaha about this but do feel I have a right to express my own opinions as well. While the brother conflicts do make for good drama, I think that the writers are walking a fine line by doing it over and over. Eventually it will make the brother’s special bond unbelievable and not have the ring of truth to it and will cost us what was so unique and special about the show.
First, Dean had no reason to believe that the angel possessing Sam, though not Ezekiel, was a threat to Kevin. We knew about Metatron but Dean didn’t and Kevin and the possessing angel had been in the bunker together for months with no bad consequences. Also the possessing angel had saved Cas, without being asked and Charlie when asked. As Dean saw it at the time, the problem was getting Sam unpossessed so the angel couldn’t leave in Sam’s body.
Second, it is really hard for Dean to know if Sam really was willing to die because he says different things at different times. At the end of S8 he was ready to die and then at Dean’s urging “let it go.” He’s a hunter and then he’s not.
Third, Sam is well aware of the lengths Dean will go to save him and yet when Dean said he had a plan Sam did not insist on knowing the plan and approving it before he said yes to the plan. So part of him must have wanted to live, whatever the plan was.
Dean is guilty of lying to keep Sam healing in the angel. He is guilty of trusting the wrong person (angel). He is guilty of never giving up on the people he loves. He is not responsible for Kevin being dead. I’m sure Metatron would have found a way to do that regardless. Dean was only part of the domino effect that Metatron started when he booted the angels out of heaven by duping Cas.
Dean is always Dean and just because he feels guilty and responsible doesn’t mean he is. Sam is a grown man and can leave Dean anytime he wants to and make all his own decisions but chooses not to. That’s on Sam. Dean offered him that choice again in S8 with no hard feelings.
Is Dean immature, selfish, crazy and everything else that has been said about him this season? Not to me. He’s Dean Winchester, badass hunter, loyal friend and
loving overprotective brother who never quits or gives up. He a human being making the best decisions he can when no decision will be totally right in very difficult circumstances and trying to set things right when he can. I hope he never changes.
I realize I see things differently then most people and that is fine by me and I definitely don’t want to start a big brouhaha about this but do feel I have a right to express my own opinions as well. While the brother conflicts do make for good drama, I think that the writers are walking a fine line by doing it over and over. Eventually it will make the brother’s special bond unbelievable and not have the ring of truth to it and will cost us what was so unique and special about the show.
Re Crowley:
[quote name=”njspnfan”]They had hooded him on the way in; just guessing they did the same on the way out.[/quote]
Sam found his way back to Lenore’s nest.
[quote name=”Prix68″] While the brother conflicts do make for good drama, I think that the writers are walking a fine line by doing it over and over. Eventually it will make the brother’s special bond unbelievable and not have the ring of truth to it and will cost us what was so unique and special about the show.[/quote]
Perhaps. After all, what’s true in theory and what’s practicable isn’t always the same. But if writers write in order to share their point of view and sometimes even to “campaign”, perhaps it’s incumbent {grin} on the audience to change their perception of what a “brothers’ special bond” ought to look like. All the moreso for fans who push hard for the personal growth of the characters. Change the people, change the relationship – and change often involves periods of strife.
Gosh i love this show! What a great ride this episode was!
I was just reading something on another subject that hit a chord regarding Sam & Dean.
The five steps to changing your life
1-You have to hit your breaking point
2-You have to understand that the process will be a slow one
3-You must be willing to change
4-You must question your lifelong beliefs
5-You must accept that the process is dynamic and will never end
Even tho this was from a Cracked writer, it is essentially accurate, at least in my own experience. Especially the last; understanding that just because you understand your motivations, doesn’t make them magically go away. Most of us are constantly fighting our own impulses, especially those motivated by lifelong (from childhood) beliefs.
Both Boys appear to have hit that #1 spot. What happens next, in TV land, will not likely include the detailed psychology here, but they both will need to question, attempt to change, accept and then be willing to work on it and move forward. But it will not, nor should it be easy. 🙂
Gosh i love this show! What a great ride this episode was!
I was just reading something on another subject that hit a chord regarding Sam & Dean.
The five steps to changing your life
1-You have to hit your breaking point
2-You have to understand that the process will be a slow one
3-You must be willing to change
4-You must question your lifelong beliefs
5-You must accept that the process is dynamic and will never end
Even tho this was from a Cracked writer, it is essentially accurate, at least in my own experience. Especially the last; understanding that just because you understand your motivations, doesn’t make them magically go away. Most of us are constantly fighting our own impulses, especially those motivated by lifelong (from childhood) beliefs.
Both Boys appear to have hit that #1 spot. What happens next, in TV land, will not likely include the detailed psychology here, but they both will need to question, attempt to change, accept and then be willing to work on it and move forward. But it will not, nor should it be easy. 🙂
[quote name=”BookLady”]I agree with Kaj as well.
Sam sees that Dean cannot let go and he needs him to, BUT I don’t think that Dean can give that to him, no matter how much Sam wants it. As Dean said, It’s not in him to let Sam go. He cannot do it. Can. Not. Do. It.
As he’s often said, Dean is fine with dying himself. It’s part of being a hunter; part of the life. He believes it is his destiny to die doing the work of a hunter. But he cannot let Sam die.
So basically you are telling us the only way Sam can have agency over his own life and to be treated with respect and eqaulity is for Dean to die?
As a Samgirl i wont root for Dean to die .. i can’t. I’d rather Sam and Dean part company for good…even if it meant the end of the show.
[quote]I agree with Kaj as well.
Sam sees that Dean cannot let go and he needs him to, BUT I don’t think that Dean can give that to him, no matter how much Sam wants it. As Dean said, It’s not in him to let Sam go. He cannot do it. Can. Not. Do. It.
As he’s often said, Dean is fine with dying himself. It’s part of being a hunter; part of the life. He believes it is his destiny to die doing the work of a hunter. But he cannot let Sam die.
So basically you are telling us the only way Sam can have agency over his own life and to be treated with respect and eqaulity is for Dean to die?
As a Samgirl i wont root for Dean to die .. i can’t. I’d rather Sam and Dean part company for good…even if it meant the end of the show.
Well, kaj’s post wasn’t short {grin}
Early on I was ready to say “tell me about it” but… the rest…???
I was thinking about the last line from Sam. When Dean said he as going after Gadreel alone, the look on Sam’s face was incredulous. I think when Sam said “don’t think that’s the problem cause it’s not” I think he meant once again you (Dean) are going to shoulder the responsibility alone. Again Dean is not going to turn to his brother for help to carry the load. Maybe that is the growth (or part of it) that Dean needs to have, that he does not have to take on the responsibility of the world alone. That is what Sam thinks he is there for. I think Sam was too weak and hurt (and angry) to get into it with Dean right then. I thought that was the point of Sacrafice. Sam wants to be his own person yes but I think he wants to be the trusted brother also.
I was thinking about the last line from Sam. When Dean said he as going after Gadreel alone, the look on Sam’s face was incredulous. I think when Sam said “don’t think that’s the problem cause it’s not” I think he meant once again you (Dean) are going to shoulder the responsibility alone. Again Dean is not going to turn to his brother for help to carry the load. Maybe that is the growth (or part of it) that Dean needs to have, that he does not have to take on the responsibility of the world alone. That is what Sam thinks he is there for. I think Sam was too weak and hurt (and angry) to get into it with Dean right then. I thought that was the point of Sacrafice. Sam wants to be his own person yes but I think he wants to be the trusted brother also.
#55 cheryl42 From your lips to the writers ears. I like that path to togetherness and better understanding.
#55 cheryl42 From your lips to the writers ears. I like that path to togetherness and better understanding.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]I was thinking about the last line from Sam. When Dean said he as going after Gadreel alone, the look on Sam’s face was incredulous. I think when Sam said “don’t think that’s the problem cause it’s not” I think he meant once again you (Dean) are going to shoulder the responsibility alone. Again Dean is not going to turn to his brother for help to carry the load. Maybe that is the growth (or part of it) that Dean needs to have, that he does not have to take on the responsibility of the world alone. That is what Sam thinks he is there for. I think Sam was too weak and hurt (and angry) to get into it with Dean right then. I thought that was the point of Sacrafice. Sam wants to be his own person yes but I think he wants to be the trusted brother also.[/quote]
Amen to that. In my opinion, Dean’s main problem is his inalbilty to trust the people who really matter, first and foremost Sam. That is I believe what Sam was referring to.
On a different subject, since this is a speculation thread, I would like to submit two theories :
1. Gadreel killed Abner’s vessel, but not Abner himself.
During their conversation in the bar, Metatron scolded Gadreel for taking his instructions too litterally and not killing Dean when he had the chance. Later, Gadreel told Dean that he had let him live, and didn’t smite him despite having the opportunity to do so and knowing that Metatron wanted Dean dead. In Abner’s case, Gadreel was given the name of Alexander Sarver, not the name of the angel he was hosting. If Gadreel used loopholes in Metatron’s instructions to spare Dean, wouldn’t he do the same for his best (and only) friend?
There is also the fact that Gadreel and Abner sat down and had a nice long chat while facing each other. Later, Dean found Alexander Sarver’s body with his throat sliced and Gadreel washing his hands. Why would Gadreel kill Abner by slicing his throat if he could have been quicker and cleaner about it by simply stabbing him with an angel blade? If Gadreel used the demon-killing knife, Abner could have escaped. It seems like Gadreel deliberately found a way to kill Alexander Sarver without killing Abner too.
2. The Metatron-Gadreel collaboration is going to end badly
Metatron was already unimpressed by Gadreel’s failure to kill Dean when he had a chance. Now, Gadreel has missed yet another opportunity to kill Dean, gotten himself captured without putting up much of a fight and lost Sam as a vessel. Not a great performance for a second-in-command. If Gadreel didn’t kill Abner, that would make it even worse.
On the other hand, Metatron has kept demanding proof of Gadreel’s loyalty without doing much to earn it. Expecting him to kill his one and only friend certainly wasn’t the way to do it. There is also Gadreel’s lack of “iniative” and enthousiasm for his duties as a hitman – expect when killing Thaddeus, but he was a special case. In Sam’s mind, Gadreel said he was going to be a hero who led the angels back to Heaven. That doesn’t sound like someone who is content to remain Metatron’s sidekick.
To me, it doesn’t look like Gadreel and Metatron are going to keep working together for long – it’s a matter of who will turn against the other first.
I might be completely off the mark, but these are the thoughts that came to me while watching the episode.
What do you think?
[quote]I was thinking about the last line from Sam. When Dean said he as going after Gadreel alone, the look on Sam’s face was incredulous. I think when Sam said “don’t think that’s the problem cause it’s not” I think he meant once again you (Dean) are going to shoulder the responsibility alone. Again Dean is not going to turn to his brother for help to carry the load. Maybe that is the growth (or part of it) that Dean needs to have, that he does not have to take on the responsibility of the world alone. That is what Sam thinks he is there for. I think Sam was too weak and hurt (and angry) to get into it with Dean right then. I thought that was the point of Sacrafice. Sam wants to be his own person yes but I think he wants to be the trusted brother also.[/quote]
Amen to that. In my opinion, Dean’s main problem is his inalbilty to trust the people who really matter, first and foremost Sam. That is I believe what Sam was referring to.
On a different subject, since this is a speculation thread, I would like to submit two theories :
1. Gadreel killed Abner’s vessel, but not Abner himself.
During their conversation in the bar, Metatron scolded Gadreel for taking his instructions too litterally and not killing Dean when he had the chance. Later, Gadreel told Dean that he had let him live, and didn’t smite him despite having the opportunity to do so and knowing that Metatron wanted Dean dead. In Abner’s case, Gadreel was given the name of Alexander Sarver, not the name of the angel he was hosting. If Gadreel used loopholes in Metatron’s instructions to spare Dean, wouldn’t he do the same for his best (and only) friend?
There is also the fact that Gadreel and Abner sat down and had a nice long chat while facing each other. Later, Dean found Alexander Sarver’s body with his throat sliced and Gadreel washing his hands. Why would Gadreel kill Abner by slicing his throat if he could have been quicker and cleaner about it by simply stabbing him with an angel blade? If Gadreel used the demon-killing knife, Abner could have escaped. It seems like Gadreel deliberately found a way to kill Alexander Sarver without killing Abner too.
2. The Metatron-Gadreel collaboration is going to end badly
Metatron was already unimpressed by Gadreel’s failure to kill Dean when he had a chance. Now, Gadreel has missed yet another opportunity to kill Dean, gotten himself captured without putting up much of a fight and lost Sam as a vessel. Not a great performance for a second-in-command. If Gadreel didn’t kill Abner, that would make it even worse.
On the other hand, Metatron has kept demanding proof of Gadreel’s loyalty without doing much to earn it. Expecting him to kill his one and only friend certainly wasn’t the way to do it. There is also Gadreel’s lack of “iniative” and enthousiasm for his duties as a hitman – expect when killing Thaddeus, but he was a special case. In Sam’s mind, Gadreel said he was going to be a hero who led the angels back to Heaven. That doesn’t sound like someone who is content to remain Metatron’s sidekick.
To me, it doesn’t look like Gadreel and Metatron are going to keep working together for long – it’s a matter of who will turn against the other first.
I might be completely off the mark, but these are the thoughts that came to me while watching the episode.
What do you think?
[quote name=”Cat”]On a different subject, since this is a speculation thread, I would like to submit two theories :
1. Gadreel killed Abner’s vessel, but not Abner himself.
During their conversation in the bar, Metatron scolded Gadreel for taking his instructions too litterally and not killing Dean when he had the chance. Later, Gadreel told Dean that he had let him live, and didn’t smite him despite having the opportunity to do so and knowing that Metatron wanted Dean dead. In Abner’s case, Gadreel was given the name of Alexander Sarver, not the name of the angel he was hosting. If Gadreel used loopholes in Metatron’s instructions to spare Dean, wouldn’t he do the same for his best (and only) friend?
There is also the fact that Gadreel and Abner sat down and had a nice long chat while facing each other. Later, Dean found Alexander Sarver’s body with his throat sliced and Gadreel washing his hands. Why would Gadreel kill Abner by slicing his throat if he could have been quicker and cleaner about it by simply stabbing him with an angel blade? If Gadreel used the demon-killing knife, Abner could have escaped. It seems like Gadreel deliberately found a way to kill Alexander Sarver without killing Abner too.
2. The Metatron-Gadreel collaboration is going to end badly
Metatron was already unimpressed by Gadreel’s failure to kill Dean when he had a chance. Now, Gadreel has missed yet another opportunity to kill Dean, gotten himself captured without putting up much of a fight and lost Sam as a vessel. Not a great performance for a second-in-command. If Gadreel didn’t kill Abner, that would make it even worse.
On the other hand, Metatron has kept demanding proof of Gadreel’s loyalty without doing much to earn it. Expecting him to kill his one and only friend certainly wasn’t the way to do it. There is also Gadreel’s lack of “iniative” and enthousiasm for his duties as a hitman – expect when killing Thaddeus, but he was a special case. In Sam’s mind, Gadreel said he was going to be a hero who led the angels back to Heaven. That doesn’t sound like someone who is content to remain Metatron’s sidekick.
To me, it doesn’t look like Gadreel and Metatron are going to keep working together for long – it’s a matter of who will turn against the other first.
I might be completely off the mark, but these are the thoughts that came to me while watching the episode.
What do you think?[/quote]
Wow… that’s an interesting possibility; he did slit his throat with an angel blade (taken earlier from Thaddeus). Easier and quicker just to stab someone. In earlier episodes, angels slit other angels throats to release or capture their grace (Metatron with Castiel in Sacrifice, Castiel taking Theo’s grace in the last episode).
I had given up on there being any possibility of a redemptive arc for Gadreel but now I’m not so sure. What did puzzle me was why he was so insistent on staying in Sam when he had a willing vessel in the bartender talking to Metatron (does Tahmoh’s character have a name or will he just be known as Gadreel). I know Sam was Lucifer’s vessel and is a very popular vessel (Meg, Lucifer, Crowley, Gadreel) – since Gadreel let Lucifer in to the Garden of Eden, and Cain was the son of Adam and Eve, just wondering if these stories are going to converge at some point.
[quote]On a different subject, since this is a speculation thread, I would like to submit two theories :
1. Gadreel killed Abner’s vessel, but not Abner himself.
During their conversation in the bar, Metatron scolded Gadreel for taking his instructions too litterally and not killing Dean when he had the chance. Later, Gadreel told Dean that he had let him live, and didn’t smite him despite having the opportunity to do so and knowing that Metatron wanted Dean dead. In Abner’s case, Gadreel was given the name of Alexander Sarver, not the name of the angel he was hosting. If Gadreel used loopholes in Metatron’s instructions to spare Dean, wouldn’t he do the same for his best (and only) friend?
There is also the fact that Gadreel and Abner sat down and had a nice long chat while facing each other. Later, Dean found Alexander Sarver’s body with his throat sliced and Gadreel washing his hands. Why would Gadreel kill Abner by slicing his throat if he could have been quicker and cleaner about it by simply stabbing him with an angel blade? If Gadreel used the demon-killing knife, Abner could have escaped. It seems like Gadreel deliberately found a way to kill Alexander Sarver without killing Abner too.
2. The Metatron-Gadreel collaboration is going to end badly
Metatron was already unimpressed by Gadreel’s failure to kill Dean when he had a chance. Now, Gadreel has missed yet another opportunity to kill Dean, gotten himself captured without putting up much of a fight and lost Sam as a vessel. Not a great performance for a second-in-command. If Gadreel didn’t kill Abner, that would make it even worse.
On the other hand, Metatron has kept demanding proof of Gadreel’s loyalty without doing much to earn it. Expecting him to kill his one and only friend certainly wasn’t the way to do it. There is also Gadreel’s lack of “iniative” and enthousiasm for his duties as a hitman – expect when killing Thaddeus, but he was a special case. In Sam’s mind, Gadreel said he was going to be a hero who led the angels back to Heaven. That doesn’t sound like someone who is content to remain Metatron’s sidekick.
To me, it doesn’t look like Gadreel and Metatron are going to keep working together for long – it’s a matter of who will turn against the other first.
I might be completely off the mark, but these are the thoughts that came to me while watching the episode.
What do you think?[/quote]
Wow… that’s an interesting possibility; he did slit his throat with an angel blade (taken earlier from Thaddeus). Easier and quicker just to stab someone. In earlier episodes, angels slit other angels throats to release or capture their grace (Metatron with Castiel in Sacrifice, Castiel taking Theo’s grace in the last episode).
I had given up on there being any possibility of a redemptive arc for Gadreel but now I’m not so sure. What did puzzle me was why he was so insistent on staying in Sam when he had a willing vessel in the bartender talking to Metatron (does Tahmoh’s character have a name or will he just be known as Gadreel). I know Sam was Lucifer’s vessel and is a very popular vessel (Meg, Lucifer, Crowley, Gadreel) – since Gadreel let Lucifer in to the Garden of Eden, and Cain was the son of Adam and Eve, just wondering if these stories are going to converge at some point.
Cat that would be a great twist to Gadreel’s story. What would he have done with Abner’s grace other than store it somewhere inside Sam? Yes I think Gadreel is going to be a much more complicated character. He seemed horrified that no angels were in heaven and he really didn’t want to kill anyone. He could have killed Sam also but instead he put him into a happy dream. I had also wondered about letting Lucifer into the garden. In some versions of Gadreels story Cain was the result of a union other than Adam and Eve. There sure is a lot more story to tell isn’t there.
Cat that would be a great twist to Gadreel’s story. What would he have done with Abner’s grace other than store it somewhere inside Sam? Yes I think Gadreel is going to be a much more complicated character. He seemed horrified that no angels were in heaven and he really didn’t want to kill anyone. He could have killed Sam also but instead he put him into a happy dream. I had also wondered about letting Lucifer into the garden. In some versions of Gadreels story Cain was the result of a union other than Adam and Eve. There sure is a lot more story to tell isn’t there.
Cat That is a great speculation. I also wondered why he cut Abner’s throat instead of the quicker angel blade stab to the heart. Great catch and theory! I’m also anxious to know how Cain is going to figure into this. This is a lot more interesting then the angel factions having a war.
Cat That is a great speculation. I also wondered why he cut Abner’s throat instead of the quicker angel blade stab to the heart. Great catch and theory! I’m also anxious to know how Cain is going to figure into this. This is a lot more interesting then the angel factions having a war.
Cat, maybe Abner’s grace is the one Cas is removing from Sam next week and not a bit of Gadriel left behind.
And whoever’s grace it is that Cas helps to remove, I have faith that the “permanent damage” that is mentioned in the synopsis for next week won’t be something that draws out sick!Sam-I think it will something like he won’t be able to remember something, for example, or something that will affect him in the future, like he won’t be able to carry on the Winchester line, should he ever hook up with a girl who doesn’t die prior to them trying to extend the Winchester line. 😉 In any case, my point is I think the writers will make the damage less of a hindrance for Sam.
Hello,
#44JuliaG- I, too, would like to see Dean grow as Sam has. Sam did let go of the guilt. He felt he’d done his time in Hell and was able to move on, but I haven’t seen Dean let go of any of his guilt. If anything, he seems to be gathering more all the time. I’d love to see him get to a place of peace, but I’m not sure I see it coming anytime soon. I’d be delighted to be wrong though.
#46 dashjo – I think with each loss he’s experienced, Dean has been more deeply hurt. His mother then his dad, then Sam, then Ash, Jo and Ellen, then Sam again then Bobby and now Kevin. Also he witnessed just this season, the death of Cas, Charlie and Kevin. He experienced them alone as Sam was not there to support him through them. Yes, some of them were of very short duration, but traumatic nonetheless. Poor, poor Dean. This season thus far has been very, very difficult for him!
#53 amyh – Just to be clear, I am not ever rooting for a beloved character to die. All their deaths are traumatic to any fan of the show and the death of either brother would be crushing. What I am trying to say is that, it is Dean’s character to protect his brother to the detriment of his own well-being, as he has shown us repeatedly. He values his brother as an adult, as an equal – that is not the issue. Just as he did with Charlie, if Dean can undo the death of one he loves, he will do it. Sam may see this action as an indication that Dean won’t let him make his own decisions about his life and death and he is right to an extent. I’d love for Dean to stop taking on the responsibility of the whole world. It must be so heavy! But for whatever reason, he does it time and again. And, if a character chooses not to be saved, he sees it as a personal failure if it is within his power to save them. Remember Cas in Purgatory? Dean has been the responsible one since he was a child; it’s who he is.
At some point, Dean may have to let Sam go, but only if there is no hope, no options, no last minute possibilities, but I don’t know that he’d be capable of giving Sam a hunter’s funeral – just in case.
Thanks to you all for reading my ramblings! And, these are just my opinions. Disagreement is expected as we all see this show through our own lenses of experience.
I’m just so glad the show is still on the air and doing so well in the ratings! Our guys looked great tonight at the Movie Critics Awards! Wouldn’t it be wonderful to see the cast and crew of Supernatural sitting at one of those tables?!
Hello,
#44JuliaG- I, too, would like to see Dean grow as Sam has. Sam did let go of the guilt. He felt he’d done his time in Hell and was able to move on, but I haven’t seen Dean let go of any of his guilt. If anything, he seems to be gathering more all the time. I’d love to see him get to a place of peace, but I’m not sure I see it coming anytime soon. I’d be delighted to be wrong though.
#46 dashjo – I think with each loss he’s experienced, Dean has been more deeply hurt. His mother then his dad, then Sam, then Ash, Jo and Ellen, then Sam again then Bobby and now Kevin. Also he witnessed just this season, the death of Cas, Charlie and Kevin. He experienced them alone as Sam was not there to support him through them. Yes, some of them were of very short duration, but traumatic nonetheless. Poor, poor Dean. This season thus far has been very, very difficult for him!
#53 amyh – Just to be clear, I am not ever rooting for a beloved character to die. All their deaths are traumatic to any fan of the show and the death of either brother would be crushing. What I am trying to say is that, it is Dean’s character to protect his brother to the detriment of his own well-being, as he has shown us repeatedly. He values his brother as an adult, as an equal – that is not the issue. Just as he did with Charlie, if Dean can undo the death of one he loves, he will do it. Sam may see this action as an indication that Dean won’t let him make his own decisions about his life and death and he is right to an extent. I’d love for Dean to stop taking on the responsibility of the whole world. It must be so heavy! But for whatever reason, he does it time and again. And, if a character chooses not to be saved, he sees it as a personal failure if it is within his power to save them. Remember Cas in Purgatory? Dean has been the responsible one since he was a child; it’s who he is.
At some point, Dean may have to let Sam go, but only if there is no hope, no options, no last minute possibilities, but I don’t know that he’d be capable of giving Sam a hunter’s funeral – just in case.
Thanks to you all for reading my ramblings! And, these are just my opinions. Disagreement is expected as we all see this show through our own lenses of experience.
I’m just so glad the show is still on the air and doing so well in the ratings! Our guys looked great tonight at the Movie Critics Awards! Wouldn’t it be wonderful to see the cast and crew of Supernatural sitting at one of those tables?!
@9 – Ah Alice, thanks for sharing. I think. Though that exchange between J/J was even more painful to read than it was to listen to. 🙂 I’m not sure, even yet, that the fellas really see the best laid paths, but I get the sense Sam, at least, is ready and willing to move forward.
You’re right, BookLady, he has has a rough time of it this season and I had almost forgotten about Cas and Charlie dying. Only because with Cas I didn’t panic because A) “Ezekiel” was there and B) since they signed Misha on to be a regular again I knew they wouldn’t kill Cas off three episodes in to the season. Plus, it’s not the first time Cas has died (what’s that four times now)? Although I did remember that last season Dean was willing to let Sam go and be with Amelia but Sam chose to help him shut the gates of Hell and figure out what was going on with Cas. Bit different though as he wasn’t letting him die just leave.
You’re right, BookLady, he has has a rough time of it this season and I had almost forgotten about Cas and Charlie dying. Only because with Cas I didn’t panic because A) “Ezekiel” was there and B) since they signed Misha on to be a regular again I knew they wouldn’t kill Cas off three episodes in to the season. Plus, it’s not the first time Cas has died (what’s that four times now)? Although I did remember that last season Dean was willing to let Sam go and be with Amelia but Sam chose to help him shut the gates of Hell and figure out what was going on with Cas. Bit different though as he wasn’t letting him die just leave.
Actually I just thought of something and thought it should go under this article since it’s speculation. It kinda bugged me (in a it just seemed odd sort of way) that during the scene that Crowley goes up to talk to NSA demon that she went on about Castiel. Now, Crowley saw the spell Metatron used to kick the angels out of Heaven and said its irreversible, which most of I think don’t really believe him, but since he was out of the loop he didn’t know that it was Cas’s grace that was used for the spell and that Cas being mojoed up again must mean it’s not his own. I just wonder if Crowley will try and make some play later using this information … anyone else agree?
Actually I just thought of something and thought it should go under this article since it’s speculation. It kinda bugged me (in a it just seemed odd sort of way) that during the scene that Crowley goes up to talk to NSA demon that she went on about Castiel. Now, Crowley saw the spell Metatron used to kick the angels out of Heaven and said its irreversible, which most of I think don’t really believe him, but since he was out of the loop he didn’t know that it was Cas’s grace that was used for the spell and that Cas being mojoed up again must mean it’s not his own. I just wonder if Crowley will try and make some play later using this information … anyone else agree?