Let’s Discuss: Is Supernatural Season Nine Winning You Over or Driving You Away?
We’ve had over a week now to absorb the shocked events of “Holy Terror,” and I’ve been thinking about ways to kick off discussions about season nine so far. I got a chance to share my opinions in the Screenfad Midseason Roundtable, but I was hoping to open up a lively forum for all of you to share, especially when opinions vary so widely.
I got this email from Ripley2Win that shares her passionate thoughts after seeing the midseason finale. She’s struggling with “Supernatural” right now, but at the same time history and loyalty over what the show has done for her has kept her around. Still, she’d like to see some change. Is there any way to drive that change?
The words below were quite thought provoking to me, and reflect what I read from several fans. The complaints aren’t the same, but I do wonder, what drives your satisfaction and loyalty? Is season nine inspiring you, pushing you away, or testing your loyalty? Below are Ripley2Win’s thoughts:
**************************************************
An open letter to Jared and his “friends” who live tweeted during “Holy Terror”:
The Road so far: I am a retired woman within spitting distance of 60 and this is my story.
I was channel surfing in 2006 and watched the last ten minutes of 2.1. Jeffrey Dean Morgan’s scruffy, sexy face caught my eye. The younger brother seemed a tall shaggy headed Muppet with a surly attitude. The older brother was a cute “boy” in hospital pajamas. When they killed the sexy Dad I happily turned the channel.
Fast forward to the end of season 3 and I randomly saw those boys again. Again there was a death but this time, the show killed the older brother. What the hell?!
A total of 20 minutes of “Supernatural” over the years convinced me of three things. 1) The show runners were sick puppies who really like killing characters. 2) Both Jared/Jensen & Sam/Dean had matured. 3) I HAD to find out IF they would show more of Dean’s stay in hell. Like a moth to a flame I had seen the light and flew straight to it.
The first full episode I watched was “Lazarus Rising.” The invisible force trying to communicate with Dean intrigued me. I had no idea what to expect when Dean and Bobby summoned Castiel. I certainly did not expect the angel to hold up a mirror to Dean’s soul in just one piece of dialogue. “You don’t think you deserve to be saved.”
That was the moment the angel moved from an intellectual understanding of Dean to an emotional understanding of his charge. That one sentence changed me into a dedicated viewer. The addition of Castiel helped me fall in love with the entire “Supernatural” universe.
My introduction to more characters was deep and positive. I simply adored Bobby and Pamela. Later I learned to cherish Gabriel and Ellen and Rufus and Balthazar and the younger versions of John and Mary. And especially Dean, . . . a man whose deeply loving nature buried behind a mask of macho posturing. I was astounded by Jensen’s acting skills from the moment Dean screamed in hell. I’m still impressed how well he handles even the worst of their scripts.
My connection to Sam, however, started badly with 4.1 because Sam seem weak and easily led astray. I was wrong about Sam because I didn’t know any back story on him. Since then I have developed a deep appreciation for both Sam and Jared. Over the years, Jared’s talent exceeded his height. The show, however, has written Sam consistently very poorly. Every year (including season 9) seems to be a rehash of something is wrong with Sammy.
My attraction to “Supernatural” is based on “the sum is greater than its parts.” No single part is more important than any other part. But I’ve noticed that certain things that attract other fans of this show don’t impress me as strongly. I don’t worship the brotherly bond, the Impala or Sam’s long hair. I am a Bigger Picture kind of fan.
When almost every character was killed off in the 7th season I came close to leaving “Supernatural.” The SPN universe had been dismantled and replaced with nothing. The overall plot and fans were wandering in the dark. I became angry with how depressing the show had become. Anger helped me remember something my Dad used to say when I griped. “If you think you can do it better, DO IT.”
I made myself a promise: I would learn how to write. That’s how I have spent the last couple of years. I am the primary caregiver to my elderly mother with post stroke progressive dementia. When she sleeps I write. I started with writing fanfics. Yes, they were flawed but I learned two things: it is easy for me to come up with story ideas and that I really like writing dialogue. Now my focus is completely on my own original works (two novels, a screenplay and two possible TV series – I may be a petite lady but I think big). “Supernatural” was the catalyst for crucial personal decisions as well as maintaining my sanity during period of being a caregiver..
I owe “Supernatural” a huge personal debt and I repay it by continuing to watch. I discuss the flaws of the ONLY show I watch on TV because I want this show to survive. More than that – I want it to thrive. I want “Supernatural” to continue as long as it wants to run.
Yes, “Supernatural” has made questionable choices, especially this season. The subject of sex, dubious consent and rape have been handled badly in this year. The episode with April is a stunning example of this. Person A (human April) was possessed by by a Person B (the reaper) and had sex without her consent. A+B=rape. Person B (the reaper) lied to Person C (Castiel) in order to have sex and gain their trust in order to torture & kill Person C. B+C=dubious consent on the part of Castiel. The Frat Boy cheers by Dean about sex with the Reaper at the end of 9.03 was a maggot filled cherry on a fallen cake. I was left with the same feeling about the bar scene with Sam, Dean and Cas. It seemed out of character for Cas to have fond memories of the woman who only bedded him in order to torture and kill him.
I criticize this show because I care. I refuse to let anyone , including The Powers That Be, show writers, SPN family or hate tweeters/bloggers, tell me that I any less of a fan because I question things, like consent issues in 9.03, queer-baiting, etc. I don’t want to change the opinion of any other “Supernatural” fan but I refuse to sit down, shut up or get out.
I am in this fandom to stay but Season 9 is making it harder and harder to do that.
Specifically addressed to Jared and “friends” who were live tweeting: I know that you have no power over scripts. My growing difficulties with the way “Supernatural” is going is not meant in any way putting down any of you. My question to you is this: How can a fan feel heard by The Powers That Be? How can “Supernatural” improve with TPTB only hearing the “you’re wonderful” comments?
***********************************************
So, let’s discuss. What do you think of Ripley2Win’s words? Do they describe your mixed feelings, or is your story different? How is season nine impacting you so far? Is your love of Supernatural waning? Is there anyway to get TPTB to filter through the fan noise and see some of the issues?
I’m having quite a few struggles with “Supernatural” and the fandom in general these days myself. Depending on how these discussions go, I might share my thoughts as well. But for now, I’d like to read about yours. Remember, these topics can get fiery at times, so just keep in mind our rules when commenting. Don’t attack another poster for their opinion. Show respect. But your opinion is important too. Please share!
Okay, let’s discuss…
Alice Jester is the founder, editor-in-chief, head writer, programmer, web designer, site administrator, marketer, and moderator for The Winchester Family Business. She is a 30 year IT applications and database expert with a penchant for creative and freelance writing in her spare (ha!!) time. That’s on top of being a wife, mother of two active kids, and four loving (aka needy) pets.
Season 9 started in a strong and interesting way ! Showing us what is going on in Sam’s mind and how he feels about himself and his sacrifices ! Then we had a series of beautiful , heartbreaking brother moments when Dean show to his brother , himself and us that ” There ain’t no Dean , if there ain’t no Sam ” ! It was the perfect opening and the idea of an angel possessing the boy with demon blood was interesting enough to keep me on board !
But as the weeks went on , the focus shifted from Winchesters and went on Angels and their war that became too complicated and boring ! I know this is the main story line of this season and we have to watch it till the episode 23 , but as a regular fan , i can’t relate to that story and angels battles and how Sam and Dean have to minimum effecting part in it ! Once again They have to sit aside and watch how Castiel is going to mess things up this time and how that will affect the balance of the world !
So in short version , i was hopeful and happy about Season 9 at first , but know , i think the writes have lost the clue and don’t know how write something new that doesn’t include , Castiel making mistakes and Winchester boys paying the prices !!!
Season 9 started in a strong and interesting way ! Showing us what is going on in Sam’s mind and how he feels about himself and his sacrifices ! Then we had a series of beautiful , heartbreaking brother moments when Dean show to his brother , himself and us that ” There ain’t no Dean , if there ain’t no Sam ” ! It was the perfect opening and the idea of an angel possessing the boy with demon blood was interesting enough to keep me on board !
But as the weeks went on , the focus shifted from Winchesters and went on Angels and their war that became too complicated and boring ! I know this is the main story line of this season and we have to watch it till the episode 23 , but as a regular fan , i can’t relate to that story and angels battles and how Sam and Dean have to minimum effecting part in it ! Once again They have to sit aside and watch how Castiel is going to mess things up this time and how that will affect the balance of the world !
So in short version , i was hopeful and happy about Season 9 at first , but know , i think the writes have lost the clue and don’t know how write something new that doesn’t include , Castiel making mistakes and Winchester boys paying the prices !!!
Will preface this with a little backstory:
I started watching Supernatural during the midseason break of season 5. At the time I had been looking for a Buffy replacement (a show I had recently marathoned and loved), and I’d previously written Supernatural off as “some stupid CW prettyboy show”. But one of my buddies recommended it because of the cool lore and the monster hunting and the sweet car and the music, so I dove right in and burned through 4 and a half seasons in a couple weeks, just in time to keep up with the live airing.
I’m primarily a fan of the first 3 seasons, and a fan of Sam, so you can probably already guess where this is going. I was done with angels by the end of season 5. I’m still done. I’m done with the lack of respect for the lore (look at how they butchered reapers in season 8 and 9 – and for what!?). I’m tired of rehashing issues that have already been resolved for the characters (was there really any need to bring John back into it, to shit on his character some more for daddy issues we’ve already dealt with?). I’m tired of Sam and Dean being forced into conflicts where they can barely do anything, and instead have to rely on a bunch of superpowered side characters to do the heavy lifting. I’m tired of Sam and Dean being made to look stupid just to serve the plot. I’m tired of Sam and Dean lying to each other for no good goddamned reason just to create some forced drama – the same drama that we’ve been dealing with SINCE SEASON FOUR. Can’t these guys grow up? It would be way, way more interesting to watch a team of badasses who are on the same page with each other going up against dangerous threats than a couple guys who keep crying because their feelings got hurt.
Mainly, I’m tried of Sam never getting to be his own goddamn character. He’s just a plot point these days. He’s soulless or he’s possessed or he’s hallucinating or he’s sick, and we rarely if ever get more than about five minutes of insight into how Sam thinks and feels about all this. It’s all about how Dean feels about it, and how Dean deals with it, and this isn’t a knock against Dean – I love the guy – it’s just that the writers ALWAYS focus on Dean’s emotional reactions to everything even if the bad shit is happening to Sam.
Hey writers, can you for once let Sam be Sam? Can you have him and Dean be on the same page and go kick some monster ass? Can you let Sam have friends and not fade into the background any time Dean talks with a side character? Can you show us what Sam thinks from time to time? Maybe – and this is a novel idea – have some bad thing happen to Dean that doesn’t involve Sam getting possessed/de-souled/sick/hallucinating/etc, and then let Sam help Dean out of that situation.
Oh, and also:
KEEP TRACK OF YOUR DAMN LORE.
Stop retconning stuff and making the monsters worse. You ruined reapers. You’re neutering angels just like you neutered demons. If you’re trying to write a story and you have to completely change a monster to get it to work for the story, you should maybe use a different damn monster. There is so much mythology and folklore to draw from – it’s not that hard to spend ten minutes on wikipedia until you find something to adapt.
Man, I love this show, I love the characters of Sam and Dean, but it is so goddamn frustrating to watch. Every time I think I’m going to quit, there’s one good episode that comes out of a string of bad ones that makes me think things might get better. But I’m getting the impression now that by the time Supernatural really ends, I’m going to be left pretending it got cancelled after season 3.
Will preface this with a little backstory:
I started watching Supernatural during the midseason break of season 5. At the time I had been looking for a Buffy replacement (a show I had recently marathoned and loved), and I’d previously written Supernatural off as “some stupid CW prettyboy show”. But one of my buddies recommended it because of the cool lore and the monster hunting and the sweet car and the music, so I dove right in and burned through 4 and a half seasons in a couple weeks, just in time to keep up with the live airing.
I’m primarily a fan of the first 3 seasons, and a fan of Sam, so you can probably already guess where this is going. I was done with angels by the end of season 5. I’m still done. I’m done with the lack of respect for the lore (look at how they butchered reapers in season 8 and 9 – and for what!?). I’m tired of rehashing issues that have already been resolved for the characters (was there really any need to bring John back into it, to shit on his character some more for daddy issues we’ve already dealt with?). I’m tired of Sam and Dean being forced into conflicts where they can barely do anything, and instead have to rely on a bunch of superpowered side characters to do the heavy lifting. I’m tired of Sam and Dean being made to look stupid just to serve the plot. I’m tired of Sam and Dean lying to each other for no good goddamned reason just to create some forced drama – the same drama that we’ve been dealing with SINCE SEASON FOUR. Can’t these guys grow up? It would be way, way more interesting to watch a team of badasses who are on the same page with each other going up against dangerous threats than a couple guys who keep crying because their feelings got hurt.
Mainly, I’m tried of Sam never getting to be his own goddamn character. He’s just a plot point these days. He’s soulless or he’s possessed or he’s hallucinating or he’s sick, and we rarely if ever get more than about five minutes of insight into how Sam thinks and feels about all this. It’s all about how Dean feels about it, and how Dean deals with it, and this isn’t a knock against Dean – I love the guy – it’s just that the writers ALWAYS focus on Dean’s emotional reactions to everything even if the bad shit is happening to Sam.
Hey writers, can you for once let Sam be Sam? Can you have him and Dean be on the same page and go kick some monster ass? Can you let Sam have friends and not fade into the background any time Dean talks with a side character? Can you show us what Sam thinks from time to time? Maybe – and this is a novel idea – have some bad thing happen to Dean that doesn’t involve Sam getting possessed/de-souled/sick/hallucinating/etc, and then let Sam help Dean out of that situation.
Oh, and also:
KEEP TRACK OF YOUR DAMN LORE.
Stop retconning stuff and making the monsters worse. You ruined reapers. You’re neutering angels just like you neutered demons. If you’re trying to write a story and you have to completely change a monster to get it to work for the story, you should maybe use a different damn monster. There is so much mythology and folklore to draw from – it’s not that hard to spend ten minutes on wikipedia until you find something to adapt.
Man, I love this show, I love the characters of Sam and Dean, but it is so goddamn frustrating to watch. Every time I think I’m going to quit, there’s one good episode that comes out of a string of bad ones that makes me think things might get better. But I’m getting the impression now that by the time Supernatural really ends, I’m going to be left pretending it got cancelled after season 3.
@2 Wendigo :
PREACH! On this you and I are in complete agreement. I do love his show but the handling of Sam is starting to irks me. Ive often argued that we have never met the real Sam, a Sam without illness or demon blood or addiction.I don’t like how its always Dean who gets to interract with all the side characters more and Sam is always alone, although his relationship with Sheriff Mills is a step in the right direction and I enjoyed his interraction with Dorothy a lot. I too used to complain about how we never get Sam’s thoughts and feelings about what’s happening to him made expressly clear or rather in small snippets of dialogue that if you blink, you miss. He does say what he thinks and feels but not very often like he did in season one thru three.I too would love to see Sam successfully save Dean from …something and not be wrong all the time no matter what decision he makes. I love Dean but I still like the way hes suffering for his decisions this season. Hes always been able to skate by making decisions for Sam and the whole world and now there’s consequences and that has made this season very exciting for me but once again something is wrong with Sam. I am glad however that when they do these things to Sam it generally rises organically out of previous episodes and there are repercussions. I was almost ready to give up on season seven for the same reasons you did but then they’d do something like Plucky Pennywhistle and Id be satisfied enough to keep going. The beginning of this season feels a little bland to me but at least isn’t awful as the start of season eight in which none of the plot points raised in seven were dealt with and the Amelia Flashbacks Crisis occurred which ruined episodes that I would have loved otherwise and will never watch again.
Imactually liking this season but until Holy Terror I was becoming very impatient at their handling of the main stories this season and my attention was about to wander but once again Holy Terror has sucked me back in. I’m committed now.
@2 Wendigo :
PREACH! On this you and I are in complete agreement. I do love his show but the handling of Sam is starting to irks me. Ive often argued that we have never met the real Sam, a Sam without illness or demon blood or addiction.I don’t like how its always Dean who gets to interract with all the side characters more and Sam is always alone, although his relationship with Sheriff Mills is a step in the right direction and I enjoyed his interraction with Dorothy a lot. I too used to complain about how we never get Sam’s thoughts and feelings about what’s happening to him made expressly clear or rather in small snippets of dialogue that if you blink, you miss. He does say what he thinks and feels but not very often like he did in season one thru three.I too would love to see Sam successfully save Dean from …something and not be wrong all the time no matter what decision he makes. I love Dean but I still like the way hes suffering for his decisions this season. Hes always been able to skate by making decisions for Sam and the whole world and now there’s consequences and that has made this season very exciting for me but once again something is wrong with Sam. I am glad however that when they do these things to Sam it generally rises organically out of previous episodes and there are repercussions. I was almost ready to give up on season seven for the same reasons you did but then they’d do something like Plucky Pennywhistle and Id be satisfied enough to keep going. The beginning of this season feels a little bland to me but at least isn’t awful as the start of season eight in which none of the plot points raised in seven were dealt with and the Amelia Flashbacks Crisis occurred which ruined episodes that I would have loved otherwise and will never watch again.
Imactually liking this season but until Holy Terror I was becoming very impatient at their handling of the main stories this season and my attention was about to wander but once again Holy Terror has sucked me back in. I’m committed now.
I personally think that “Ripley2Win’s” is over reacting, not more or less. To talk about “rape”? I’ve seen worse reality scenes in tv like in the serie 24, Califonication or these awefull reality shows, btw we have them also in Germany just embarrassing.
Here in Germany there are also some fans disapointed.
Imo its more the lack of logical understanding, they only want to see sugar cupcated Winchesttiel brotherly angel love, no intellectual challenges. I asked some in our German fangroup, why they were disapointed, the main response was “they can’t say why”. Then I asked is it the angel story? Answer “yea..” Then I asked again, why? Answer “it’s to complex” My reaction O_O ohh…
I’m totally satisfied!
Surly there could bee more Sam “insight” but the season isn’t over yet.
And the angel war, brilliant!! We have a classical theme that is still en vogue just think about the gang wars in LA “Blood vs Crips”, it’s the same. One gang wants to get the hole territory that means war. Thats the big picture. Then we have the old fraction that wants everything as it was, like the grand old italian mafia beautiful storyline for Crowly vs Abaddon, and naturally they are standing on the side and waiting to see who is going to win in the “Blood & Crips war” so i the end they can make an offer that nobody can refuse.
And the brothers. Well they are the tragical “casualty” in this war. But also the ones who from the begining started the chaos. Now they have to deal with the consequenses. But how are they going to deal with it? Thats the other grand storyline.
Because if Dean would have ignored the angel Castiel, Castiel wouldn’t have got the idea of a “free will” therefore wouldn’t have acted on himself. No civil war in heaven, no soul collecting, no Crowley deal, no Sam saving from hell without soul, no Leviathans, no angel / demon tablets, no remorse, no Metatron, no fallen angels, no trials, no comatose Sam, no Dean / Ezkiel interaction, and so on.
The first thing you lern in history study, behind all is a plain and simple motive and the law / principles of cause and effect.
For example throw a stone into the water, the stone is gone but you can still see the waves.
Now if you haven’t seen the stone what caused the effect of the waves?
Now that we are going to find out next year.
Imo the screenwritters have done a beautiful job, even after 81/2 they still know how to tell a classical story in a modern but supernatural context, just awesome!
Surly there are some critcal issues, but for the most part I can’t complain.
love and greetz from Berlin
I personally think that “Ripley2Win’s” is over reacting, not more or less. To talk about “rape”? I’ve seen worse reality scenes in tv like in the serie 24, Califonication or these awefull reality shows, btw we have them also in Germany just embarrassing.
Here in Germany there are also some fans disapointed.
Imo its more the lack of logical understanding, they only want to see sugar cupcated Winchesttiel brotherly angel love, no intellectual challenges. I asked some in our German fangroup, why they were disapointed, the main response was “they can’t say why”. Then I asked is it the angel story? Answer “yea..” Then I asked again, why? Answer “it’s to complex” My reaction O_O ohh…
I’m totally satisfied!
Surly there could bee more Sam “insight” but the season isn’t over yet.
And the angel war, brilliant!! We have a classical theme that is still en vogue just think about the gang wars in LA “Blood vs Crips”, it’s the same. One gang wants to get the hole territory that means war. Thats the big picture. Then we have the old fraction that wants everything as it was, like the grand old italian mafia beautiful storyline for Crowly vs Abaddon, and naturally they are standing on the side and waiting to see who is going to win in the “Blood & Crips war” so i the end they can make an offer that nobody can refuse.
And the brothers. Well they are the tragical “casualty” in this war. But also the ones who from the begining started the chaos. Now they have to deal with the consequenses. But how are they going to deal with it? Thats the other grand storyline.
Because if Dean would have ignored the angel Castiel, Castiel wouldn’t have got the idea of a “free will” therefore wouldn’t have acted on himself. No civil war in heaven, no soul collecting, no Crowley deal, no Sam saving from hell without soul, no Leviathans, no angel / demon tablets, no remorse, no Metatron, no fallen angels, no trials, no comatose Sam, no Dean / Ezkiel interaction, and so on.
The first thing you lern in history study, behind all is a plain and simple motive and the law / principles of cause and effect.
For example throw a stone into the water, the stone is gone but you can still see the waves.
Now if you haven’t seen the stone what caused the effect of the waves?
Now that we are going to find out next year.
Imo the screenwritters have done a beautiful job, even after 81/2 they still know how to tell a classical story in a modern but supernatural context, just awesome!
Surly there are some critcal issues, but for the most part I can’t complain.
love and greetz from Berlin
I think there is just too much discussion going on at this point.
Everone wants things to go as they see them, so let’s quickly look at what the show is about.
x
It was planned as a father and two brothers out for revenge against the being that killed their wife/mother. Because of this, the children were brought up in a life where they learned to hunt the supernatural.
Their father died and they were left on their own, bound and co-dependent on one another because of the overwhelmingness of the life they lead, having practically only each other to communicate with and depend on.
They were a team, and although their characters were very different, each brother had his space and his role was respected by the writers.
The show was the story of their adventures on the road in a car that was regarded by both as their home on wheels.
x
The gradual introduction of other characters has had the consequence of pushing the brothers into the back ground and handing over their skills, research, smarts, knowledge of lore etc.,to others, with the emphasis now being placed on keeping the brothers at odds with one another, for so called ‘dramatic effect’.
x
For me the show should go back to its roots. The chemistry between the J’s carried the show then, and it’s still the only thing that does.
It’s a pity the current writers don’t seem to understand that, concentrating their attention on any and all secondary characters and so watering down the show into an aimless sit com; something that is completely alien to the original theme of the show.
In Changing Channels the sit-com sketch made us laugh ,but it seems it foreshadowed what would come.
x
Sure we might still get a good brother scene or a sentimental flash-back moment, but the heart of the show, i.e. the brothers and especially Sam have been pushed into the back ground.
At this moment we don’t even know if he is alive any more!
x
I still watch, but only for Sam and Dean and I will accompany them to the end, however that goes down.
All the rest including the continuous disrespect and ret-conning of canon I will ignore completely.
As for any social issues; this is not the show where those are at the forefront, so i see no problems with that.
I have certainly never been offended by what has happened on the show; what offends me is the shoddy way the two leads Sam and Dean are treated.
I think there is just too much discussion going on at this point.
Everone wants things to go as they see them, so let’s quickly look at what the show is about.
x
It was planned as a father and two brothers out for revenge against the being that killed their wife/mother. Because of this, the children were brought up in a life where they learned to hunt the supernatural.
Their father died and they were left on their own, bound and co-dependent on one another because of the overwhelmingness of the life they lead, having practically only each other to communicate with and depend on.
They were a team, and although their characters were very different, each brother had his space and his role was respected by the writers.
The show was the story of their adventures on the road in a car that was regarded by both as their home on wheels.
x
The gradual introduction of other characters has had the consequence of pushing the brothers into the back ground and handing over their skills, research, smarts, knowledge of lore etc.,to others, with the emphasis now being placed on keeping the brothers at odds with one another, for so called ‘dramatic effect’.
x
For me the show should go back to its roots. The chemistry between the J’s carried the show then, and it’s still the only thing that does.
It’s a pity the current writers don’t seem to understand that, concentrating their attention on any and all secondary characters and so watering down the show into an aimless sit com; something that is completely alien to the original theme of the show.
In Changing Channels the sit-com sketch made us laugh ,but it seems it foreshadowed what would come.
x
Sure we might still get a good brother scene or a sentimental flash-back moment, but the heart of the show, i.e. the brothers and especially Sam have been pushed into the back ground.
At this moment we don’t even know if he is alive any more!
x
I still watch, but only for Sam and Dean and I will accompany them to the end, however that goes down.
All the rest including the continuous disrespect and ret-conning of canon I will ignore completely.
As for any social issues; this is not the show where those are at the forefront, so i see no problems with that.
I have certainly never been offended by what has happened on the show; what offends me is the shoddy way the two leads Sam and Dean are treated.
Omg… I had no idea that I would ramble so long that this would take up all the space given… so I will break it in two. part 1-
What a hot topic! This scares me a little because I have seen a lot of debating lately on the subject of Sam and Dean and the direction of the show. Some of it gets a little heated. lol. I am what may be termed a new comer to the show. I watched Season One all those years ago, but then I had another baby and got in some financial trouble so I lost track of the boys. I always wanted to watch, but never seemed to remember it was on. (Oh, the horror!!) My friend Leta kept posting pictures and quotes from the show on her FB page. I was once again intrigued. It took me two weeks to watch eight Seasons… I was completely hooked and in love with two Winchesters. Maybe it’s that it is still new to me, maybe if I had been watching it for eight long years I would be disenchanted… I don’t know. But honestly, I am not sure where all the disappointment is coming from. I LOVE THIS SHOW!!
My favorite character is Sam, but I do not “dislike”Dean. I love them both, it’s their relationship that makes the show so special. Yeah, Dean is always saving Sammy….. that’s what he does. Since Day one when he carried him out of the burning house.
Has Sam disappeared as a character? That is an interesting question. I have a hard time seeing it.. again, I watched the shows so quickly. I have just finished Season 4 for the 2nd time and am moving on to 5, these are my favorite seasons because Sam is the main focus and I love Jared’s acting to bring out Sammy’s hurts, fears, and insecurities. Swan Song is my favorite episode ever. I have never cried so hard over a show. 😥
Season 6, dealing with Sammy’s hallucinations. I hear fans saying that Sam’s opinion was missing? Huh? What about all the shots of him and Lucifer talking? What about the asylum? Maybe I will notice more when I rewatch.
Season 7&8. Do I have to talk about Season 7/8? I choose to ignore it, pretend they do not not exist.. yeah, there were some good episodes but mostly it sucked… just bad. Sam not looking for Dean. WTF!? yeah, right…. his lackluster relationship that we were suppose to believe he was so in love with this woman (A woman so unimportant I can’t even remember her name!)… but they didn’t give us any insight about it at all. Now here I can maybe see the no Sam POV. I just could not fathom his relationship. No chemistry or just not enough of the Sammy feels? I will admit to giggling like a twelve year old over the references to Dick though… 😛 what can I say. I HATED the leviatnan arch. And they killed Bobby! Damn, idgits wth?
End of Season Eight. Sam. Sigh….. I think I am going to skip to the end of the season to rewatch it. I go over it in my mind… The trials, Sam’s pain, physical and emotional. Is his POV missing? Do we see how he is coping?? I know he was determined and felt like he “had” to do them. My mind is always stuck on the finale and his heartbreaking tears. I died a little over those tears. 😥 Jared was awesome in that scene.
And that brings me to boys tears. Do Sam and Dean cry too much? A big fat no here. Crap. Dean cries because his brother died! Because his friend, and someone he Felt responsible for died (Kevin). He should be upset! It’s not like he’s bawling like a big baby. He can still be a man and shed a few tears. Matter of fact it is one of the reasons I love Dean. He’s big macho with the ladies, sarcastic, tries to hide his feelings most of the time.. but we get to see the moments when he can’t suppress them. He’s usually alone, and something awful just happened. With all he’s gone through, more than your average dude I would say, he deserves to shed a few tears now and then. Sam is a little more emotional. He’s just that type of guy. He has always been that type of guy. He likes to talk about things. He usually has no problem sharing (sometimes he gets a little obtuse, but who wouldn’t want to hide the fact that they’re addicted to demon blood). I love the feels from the boys. The emotional connection they have, transfers off the screen to me. If it was just a show about two bad ass men driving around killing monsters, it would not have lasted so long.
Sam is a bit broken. He’s always felt like he’s different. And yeah, maybe the writers do play on this. I mean, even I was upset that he was possessed again! Didn’t this just happen with Lucifer? And trust me… I want my Sam back!! However, I get it. Jared is excellent at switching roles. His movement from one character to another is fluid and graceful. The writers play on this strength. As Lucifer he was cocky, uncaring. He was flat, emotionless, except when angry and hateful. So different than Sam and you could see this in their portrayal. Man, in Swan Song.. when Sam beats Lucifer down and comes back… what a scene!
Omg… I had no idea that I would ramble so long that this would take up all the space given… so I will break it in two. part 1-
What a hot topic! This scares me a little because I have seen a lot of debating lately on the subject of Sam and Dean and the direction of the show. Some of it gets a little heated. lol. I am what may be termed a new comer to the show. I watched Season One all those years ago, but then I had another baby and got in some financial trouble so I lost track of the boys. I always wanted to watch, but never seemed to remember it was on. (Oh, the horror!!) My friend Leta kept posting pictures and quotes from the show on her FB page. I was once again intrigued. It took me two weeks to watch eight Seasons… I was completely hooked and in love with two Winchesters. Maybe it’s that it is still new to me, maybe if I had been watching it for eight long years I would be disenchanted… I don’t know. But honestly, I am not sure where all the disappointment is coming from. I LOVE THIS SHOW!!
My favorite character is Sam, but I do not “dislike”Dean. I love them both, it’s their relationship that makes the show so special. Yeah, Dean is always saving Sammy….. that’s what he does. Since Day one when he carried him out of the burning house.
Has Sam disappeared as a character? That is an interesting question. I have a hard time seeing it.. again, I watched the shows so quickly. I have just finished Season 4 for the 2nd time and am moving on to 5, these are my favorite seasons because Sam is the main focus and I love Jared’s acting to bring out Sammy’s hurts, fears, and insecurities. Swan Song is my favorite episode ever. I have never cried so hard over a show. 😥
Season 6, dealing with Sammy’s hallucinations. I hear fans saying that Sam’s opinion was missing? Huh? What about all the shots of him and Lucifer talking? What about the asylum? Maybe I will notice more when I rewatch.
Season 7&8. Do I have to talk about Season 7/8? I choose to ignore it, pretend they do not not exist.. yeah, there were some good episodes but mostly it sucked… just bad. Sam not looking for Dean. WTF!? yeah, right…. his lackluster relationship that we were suppose to believe he was so in love with this woman (A woman so unimportant I can’t even remember her name!)… but they didn’t give us any insight about it at all. Now here I can maybe see the no Sam POV. I just could not fathom his relationship. No chemistry or just not enough of the Sammy feels? I will admit to giggling like a twelve year old over the references to Dick though… 😛 what can I say. I HATED the leviatnan arch. And they killed Bobby! Damn, idgits wth?
End of Season Eight. Sam. Sigh….. I think I am going to skip to the end of the season to rewatch it. I go over it in my mind… The trials, Sam’s pain, physical and emotional. Is his POV missing? Do we see how he is coping?? I know he was determined and felt like he “had” to do them. My mind is always stuck on the finale and his heartbreaking tears. I died a little over those tears. 😥 Jared was awesome in that scene.
And that brings me to boys tears. Do Sam and Dean cry too much? A big fat no here. Crap. Dean cries because his brother died! Because his friend, and someone he Felt responsible for died (Kevin). He should be upset! It’s not like he’s bawling like a big baby. He can still be a man and shed a few tears. Matter of fact it is one of the reasons I love Dean. He’s big macho with the ladies, sarcastic, tries to hide his feelings most of the time.. but we get to see the moments when he can’t suppress them. He’s usually alone, and something awful just happened. With all he’s gone through, more than your average dude I would say, he deserves to shed a few tears now and then. Sam is a little more emotional. He’s just that type of guy. He has always been that type of guy. He likes to talk about things. He usually has no problem sharing (sometimes he gets a little obtuse, but who wouldn’t want to hide the fact that they’re addicted to demon blood). I love the feels from the boys. The emotional connection they have, transfers off the screen to me. If it was just a show about two bad ass men driving around killing monsters, it would not have lasted so long.
Sam is a bit broken. He’s always felt like he’s different. And yeah, maybe the writers do play on this. I mean, even I was upset that he was possessed again! Didn’t this just happen with Lucifer? And trust me… I want my Sam back!! However, I get it. Jared is excellent at switching roles. His movement from one character to another is fluid and graceful. The writers play on this strength. As Lucifer he was cocky, uncaring. He was flat, emotionless, except when angry and hateful. So different than Sam and you could see this in their portrayal. Man, in Swan Song.. when Sam beats Lucifer down and comes back… what a scene!
Part 2- For anyone who is still reading my craziness-
Now here in Season 9, Gadreel is more like Sam. He’s broken and scared. The difference is that Gadreel is more of a wimp, or a push-over. Jared’s portrayal of Gadreel as a spineless, monkey boy/ angel is awesome. Sam may be hurting, he may feel bad for his past, but he still doesn’t let anyone push him around and tell him what to do, not even Dean. He is his own man. While I do like these scenes and think Jared is an awesome actor… I do want Sam back and hope the writers don’t play around.
Dean and Sam…. Dean can be a condescending ass. He’s self-righteous, over protective, judgmental, and may have a bit of a God complex. And that’s okay!! I have said before that Dean is more like a father to Sam than a brother. He is the one that raised Sam, not John. (Whom I hate, btw) In this role he was forced to play, Dean loved/ loves Sam too much. He had Sam on a pedestal and in some ways still does. In Season 4 Sam fell off the pedestal and man did Dean take it hard.
On the other hand, Sam knows he can never live up to his brothers expectations. No matter how hard he tries. He even mentions this when talking to Dean about Ruby and why he went to her… to get away from Dean’s expectations for a while. I have seen this repeatedly through out all the seasons. It’s still happening now… why are some of us shocked?
Was Dean suppose to change? People don’t change. Dean will always try to make decisions for his brother. Dean will always think he knows best. He’s the father figure. This pisses Sam off. just like it pisses anyone off who’s parent interferes in their lives. Sam is forgiving though. He understands all of it. This was shown in “Bad Boys” Sam again realizes that Dean gave up his childhood to be there for him. I think Sam is the stronger of the two because of this. I guess me seeing Dean in the “fatherly” role helps me understand why he sometimes treats Sam badly. He really does piss me off at times. lol.
Wow.. have a gone on a tangent here?
I get so involved with these characters… I haven’t even begun to discuss Castiel or the angels. I will say that I do agree with wendigo on the angel lore. I hate what the show has done to the angels. All of them are evil? Really? All they want to do is kill each other? What?! There have only been like, what, 5 decent angels on this show. Good grief. And where is God? He’s just gone… :-* I understand that the show may find it difficult to write him in. He’s [i]God.[/i] But if you’re going to play with Angels and Heaven, you better bring in the big man. Personally, I would like God to show up, smite all the idiot angels, throw Metatron in a cage, zap Gadreel and set everything right. Then we can get away from the angel war that I care nothing about. Cas could be in good graces again, and the boys can find something else to fight. Something they can deal with together.
I have went in so many directions here. But if I can sit here and write on and on about Supernatural and the boys, I believe I am still all in. If I was tired of it, or disenchanted, I probably wouldn’t waste my breath. I am ready for January, still sitting on edge about what is next and looking forward to Season 10!!
Part 2- For anyone who is still reading my craziness-
Now here in Season 9, Gadreel is more like Sam. He’s broken and scared. The difference is that Gadreel is more of a wimp, or a push-over. Jared’s portrayal of Gadreel as a spineless, monkey boy/ angel is awesome. Sam may be hurting, he may feel bad for his past, but he still doesn’t let anyone push him around and tell him what to do, not even Dean. He is his own man. While I do like these scenes and think Jared is an awesome actor… I do want Sam back and hope the writers don’t play around.
Dean and Sam…. Dean can be a condescending ass. He’s self-righteous, over protective, judgmental, and may have a bit of a God complex. And that’s okay!! I have said before that Dean is more like a father to Sam than a brother. He is the one that raised Sam, not John. (Whom I hate, btw) In this role he was forced to play, Dean loved/ loves Sam too much. He had Sam on a pedestal and in some ways still does. In Season 4 Sam fell off the pedestal and man did Dean take it hard.
On the other hand, Sam knows he can never live up to his brothers expectations. No matter how hard he tries. He even mentions this when talking to Dean about Ruby and why he went to her… to get away from Dean’s expectations for a while. I have seen this repeatedly through out all the seasons. It’s still happening now… why are some of us shocked?
Was Dean suppose to change? People don’t change. Dean will always try to make decisions for his brother. Dean will always think he knows best. He’s the father figure. This pisses Sam off. just like it pisses anyone off who’s parent interferes in their lives. Sam is forgiving though. He understands all of it. This was shown in “Bad Boys” Sam again realizes that Dean gave up his childhood to be there for him. I think Sam is the stronger of the two because of this. I guess me seeing Dean in the “fatherly” role helps me understand why he sometimes treats Sam badly. He really does piss me off at times. lol.
Wow.. have a gone on a tangent here?
I get so involved with these characters… I haven’t even begun to discuss Castiel or the angels. I will say that I do agree with wendigo on the angel lore. I hate what the show has done to the angels. All of them are evil? Really? All they want to do is kill each other? What?! There have only been like, what, 5 decent angels on this show. Good grief. And where is God? He’s just gone… :-* I understand that the show may find it difficult to write him in. He’s [i]God.[/i] But if you’re going to play with Angels and Heaven, you better bring in the big man. Personally, I would like God to show up, smite all the idiot angels, throw Metatron in a cage, zap Gadreel and set everything right. Then we can get away from the angel war that I care nothing about. Cas could be in good graces again, and the boys can find something else to fight. Something they can deal with together.
I have went in so many directions here. But if I can sit here and write on and on about Supernatural and the boys, I believe I am still all in. If I was tired of it, or disenchanted, I probably wouldn’t waste my breath. I am ready for January, still sitting on edge about what is next and looking forward to Season 10!!
Ripley2Win eloquently described my primary disappointment and frustration with this current season especially the troubling way the consent issues were handled in regards to a reaper possessing an innocent women and tricking Castiel into having sex before torturing and murdering him. The way the characters laughed and joked about the situation afterwards disturbed me as there was nothing funny about the situation, and the fact the this pair of writers treated it that way in both 9×03 and 9×09 has me looking forward to any future episodes they write with a certain amount of dread and trepidation. My sincere hope, because I want to continue to watch and enjoy this show, is some of this constructive criticism makes it way back to the writers, so they can learn from their mistakes and give us better quality episodes on the future. Twitter, with its character limitations, is a frustrating medium in which to convey such criticisms, however unfortunately, it is the only direct line we have to writing staff.
I do think fans who are unhappy with elements of the show have the right to express that unhappiness. The Supernatural fandom is particularly fractured. You have various groups of Sam fans, Dean fans, Cas fans, shippers and non-shippers alike who all watch this show for different reasons and will have different concerns. Speaking in a general sense, we are all different people who have a wide range of varying life experiences and perceptions, so what may be upsetting and troubling to some fans may be enjoyed by another.
What comes down to is this: We all have the right as fans to express our enjoyment AND our frustration to the TPTB. Am I going to agree with everything my fellow fans praise or criticize? No, but do I think they have the right to say it? Yes. Do some fans cross the line when it comes to calling the writers names and being rude to them? Yes. One can express disappointment with the show without resorting to name calling and insults. Because we love this show and the characters so much, sometimes our passion makes it hard for us to remain civil to the writers and our fellow fans. It’s something we all need to strive to do, however, if we want the fandom to be a better place. I also think criticism is more likely to be taken seriously when it’s presented in a thoughtful, polite manner.
The writers for the show work hard, so I’m sure they enjoy the praise they receive from fans, but I do hope they consider some of the complaints as well. I think we all want the writers to continue to ask themselves: “How can I improve on what I did? How can I further hone my craft, so I can deliver an even better script than I did last time?” All good writers, all serious writers should want constructive criticism rather than nothing but praise. I sincerely hope *those* are the types of writers we have working for Supernatural rather than the type who believe they can do no wrong and are only in it for the paycheck and ego stroking.
It’s also important to remember that a TV show isn’t just an art form but also a business. If the show isn’t profitable for a network, it will get cancelled. Supernatural right now is doing very well in the ratings, but it behooves them to not become complacent and try to address issues that could potentially lead to an erosion and lack of retention in the fanbase down the line. Season 9 has disappointed me and others in a number of ways. The disturbing sex issues aside, I think the pacing has been poor with too many gimmicky filler episodes slowing down its momentum and making us feel too disconnected from the greater myth arc.
However, I do think it has the potential to turn around and pick up in the second half. The upcoming episodes dealing with the fallout of the 9×09 events and delving more deeply it angel/demon conflict, and hopefully more Team Free Will interaction as I love that dynamic, all give me cautious optimism about the future despite my current misgivings. I’m still deeply invested in the story of Castiel, Dean and Sam, and I want to find out what happens to them. Here’s hoping for the best and that season 9 wraps up with an exciting bang that has us all squealing with excitement for season 10.
Ripley2Win eloquently described my primary disappointment and frustration with this current season especially the troubling way the consent issues were handled in regards to a reaper possessing an innocent women and tricking Castiel into having sex before torturing and murdering him. The way the characters laughed and joked about the situation afterwards disturbed me as there was nothing funny about the situation, and the fact the this pair of writers treated it that way in both 9×03 and 9×09 has me looking forward to any future episodes they write with a certain amount of dread and trepidation. My sincere hope, because I want to continue to watch and enjoy this show, is some of this constructive criticism makes it way back to the writers, so they can learn from their mistakes and give us better quality episodes on the future. Twitter, with its character limitations, is a frustrating medium in which to convey such criticisms, however unfortunately, it is the only direct line we have to writing staff.
I do think fans who are unhappy with elements of the show have the right to express that unhappiness. The Supernatural fandom is particularly fractured. You have various groups of Sam fans, Dean fans, Cas fans, shippers and non-shippers alike who all watch this show for different reasons and will have different concerns. Speaking in a general sense, we are all different people who have a wide range of varying life experiences and perceptions, so what may be upsetting and troubling to some fans may be enjoyed by another.
What comes down to is this: We all have the right as fans to express our enjoyment AND our frustration to the TPTB. Am I going to agree with everything my fellow fans praise or criticize? No, but do I think they have the right to say it? Yes. Do some fans cross the line when it comes to calling the writers names and being rude to them? Yes. One can express disappointment with the show without resorting to name calling and insults. Because we love this show and the characters so much, sometimes our passion makes it hard for us to remain civil to the writers and our fellow fans. It’s something we all need to strive to do, however, if we want the fandom to be a better place. I also think criticism is more likely to be taken seriously when it’s presented in a thoughtful, polite manner.
The writers for the show work hard, so I’m sure they enjoy the praise they receive from fans, but I do hope they consider some of the complaints as well. I think we all want the writers to continue to ask themselves: “How can I improve on what I did? How can I further hone my craft, so I can deliver an even better script than I did last time?” All good writers, all serious writers should want constructive criticism rather than nothing but praise. I sincerely hope *those* are the types of writers we have working for Supernatural rather than the type who believe they can do no wrong and are only in it for the paycheck and ego stroking.
It’s also important to remember that a TV show isn’t just an art form but also a business. If the show isn’t profitable for a network, it will get cancelled. Supernatural right now is doing very well in the ratings, but it behooves them to not become complacent and try to address issues that could potentially lead to an erosion and lack of retention in the fanbase down the line. Season 9 has disappointed me and others in a number of ways. The disturbing sex issues aside, I think the pacing has been poor with too many gimmicky filler episodes slowing down its momentum and making us feel too disconnected from the greater myth arc.
However, I do think it has the potential to turn around and pick up in the second half. The upcoming episodes dealing with the fallout of the 9×09 events and delving more deeply it angel/demon conflict, and hopefully more Team Free Will interaction as I love that dynamic, all give me cautious optimism about the future despite my current misgivings. I’m still deeply invested in the story of Castiel, Dean and Sam, and I want to find out what happens to them. Here’s hoping for the best and that season 9 wraps up with an exciting bang that has us all squealing with excitement for season 10.
I have stated my opinions on the site loudly and often (sorry, guys!) but since Alice has so nicely given us a spot to collect them, I’ll add them again! 😉
I have loved, and watched over and over and over seasons 1 through 7. I can not bring myself yet to rewatch season 8. Not once.
The show very nearly lost me in the first half of season 8. The character that I had understood and related to the most had suddenly vanished over the summer hiatus. Where was Sam? Who was this person who quietly grieved without making an attempt to find his brother? Without any clear explanation at all, my favourite character was suddenly a foreign entity. Was this another “Something’s wrong with Sam” plot? Body swap? Possession? Um.. apparently not. Just a totally different reaction from any we’d seen from Sam, that was never justified.
There was some truly awesome possibilities with the plot for Dean that somehow got lost in my anger about Sam – and then seemed to just be dropped. There are still an awful lot of unanswered questions about Purgatory and Benny.
The back half of season 8 was a bit of an improvement… not because Sam was doing the trials, but because he was allowed to speak about what he was going through. And Dean was there to hear it. WOW did Jared, Jensen and Mark KILL those scenes (and my heart with them). I had great hopes that this would lead to further reconciliation – reconciliation that had looked to be impossible earlier in the year.
Suddenly – Season 9 – all my hopes were dashed. We’ve had some really great emotional scenes from Jensen, proving what an incredible actor he is, BUT not only are the brothers not talking, not reconciling, but Sam is actually not!Sam! Again! (And again, some incredible stuff from Jared!)
Even with the glimpses of Sam that we’ve had, I have to wonder whether they can be taken as true or as manipulated. When Sam was happy, was he happy or did Gadreel make him feel that way to fool Dean?
I watch this show for the interaction (relationship, if you will) between the brothers. I don’t give a damn about Cas or the angels. I like supporting characters who support – not suddenly become the main focus or the hero of the day.
If this article goes anywhere – my bottom line message to TPTB would be this. USE the incredible talent of the two guys. THEY are what the show needs to focus on. THEIR chemistry. STOP trying to find conflict between the brothers. STOP hiding Sam behind afflictions and secondary characters. START allowing the brothers to truly mend their relationship and START allowing them to work together as a team once again.
Thank you.
ETA: I’m not even going to mention the canon destroying things in season 8 and 9. Hey, PTB. WE take it seriously. PLEASE treat canon with more care.
I have stated my opinions on the site loudly and often (sorry, guys!) but since Alice has so nicely given us a spot to collect them, I’ll add them again! 😉
I have loved, and watched over and over and over seasons 1 through 7. I can not bring myself yet to rewatch season 8. Not once.
The show very nearly lost me in the first half of season 8. The character that I had understood and related to the most had suddenly vanished over the summer hiatus. Where was Sam? Who was this person who quietly grieved without making an attempt to find his brother? Without any clear explanation at all, my favourite character was suddenly a foreign entity. Was this another “Something’s wrong with Sam” plot? Body swap? Possession? Um.. apparently not. Just a totally different reaction from any we’d seen from Sam, that was never justified.
There was some truly awesome possibilities with the plot for Dean that somehow got lost in my anger about Sam – and then seemed to just be dropped. There are still an awful lot of unanswered questions about Purgatory and Benny.
The back half of season 8 was a bit of an improvement… not because Sam was doing the trials, but because he was allowed to speak about what he was going through. And Dean was there to hear it. WOW did Jared, Jensen and Mark KILL those scenes (and my heart with them). I had great hopes that this would lead to further reconciliation – reconciliation that had looked to be impossible earlier in the year.
Suddenly – Season 9 – all my hopes were dashed. We’ve had some really great emotional scenes from Jensen, proving what an incredible actor he is, BUT not only are the brothers not talking, not reconciling, but Sam is actually not!Sam! Again! (And again, some incredible stuff from Jared!)
Even with the glimpses of Sam that we’ve had, I have to wonder whether they can be taken as true or as manipulated. When Sam was happy, was he happy or did Gadreel make him feel that way to fool Dean?
I watch this show for the interaction (relationship, if you will) between the brothers. I don’t give a damn about Cas or the angels. I like supporting characters who support – not suddenly become the main focus or the hero of the day.
If this article goes anywhere – my bottom line message to TPTB would be this. USE the incredible talent of the two guys. THEY are what the show needs to focus on. THEIR chemistry. STOP trying to find conflict between the brothers. STOP hiding Sam behind afflictions and secondary characters. START allowing the brothers to truly mend their relationship and START allowing them to work together as a team once again.
Thank you.
ETA: I’m not even going to mention the canon destroying things in season 8 and 9. Hey, PTB. WE take it seriously. PLEASE treat canon with more care.
I started watching SPN beginning with the Pilot. The concept of a road trip on the back roads of America, classic rock, and a vintage muscle car peaked by interest. This was my first step into the sci-fi and horror genre, and I taking it because I was fed up with Hollywood social engineering movies. I wasn’t overly thrilled, but the two leads kept me interested and when I got to “Faith,” I thought, “Wow. This show has potential.”
I all but gave up on the show under SG’s direction, but when Carver was announced as the new showrunner, I was thrilled. By the end of S8, I had again decided to give it up. “Sacrifice,” though made me curious enough to start again with S9.
So far, I am satisfied with S9. I don’t like everything the show does, I’m not cracked up with the number of one-off’s in a row that we see, and I hate the unrealistic recurring characters (**cough Charlie cough** and Garth) but I like the story. I like that the angel war appears to me to be running in the background, while Sam’s story is focused on Dean, and Dean’s story is Sam’s story. Yes, I said it. I think Sam has the story and we are seeing that story through Dean’s emotions. I’m happy with that and I’m very happy that it is not another season of ‘what’s wrong with Sam.’
This isn’t the best season of SPN ever, but there is a lot of potential and it is a vast improvement over the last three years. Besides…we still have SPN nine years later and I think ten, if not more, is on track. How lucky is that, to have ten years of the Winchester boys!
I started watching SPN beginning with the Pilot. The concept of a road trip on the back roads of America, classic rock, and a vintage muscle car peaked by interest. This was my first step into the sci-fi and horror genre, and I taking it because I was fed up with Hollywood social engineering movies. I wasn’t overly thrilled, but the two leads kept me interested and when I got to “Faith,” I thought, “Wow. This show has potential.”
I all but gave up on the show under SG’s direction, but when Carver was announced as the new showrunner, I was thrilled. By the end of S8, I had again decided to give it up. “Sacrifice,” though made me curious enough to start again with S9.
So far, I am satisfied with S9. I don’t like everything the show does, I’m not cracked up with the number of one-off’s in a row that we see, and I hate the unrealistic recurring characters (**cough Charlie cough** and Garth) but I like the story. I like that the angel war appears to me to be running in the background, while Sam’s story is focused on Dean, and Dean’s story is Sam’s story. Yes, I said it. I think Sam has the story and we are seeing that story through Dean’s emotions. I’m happy with that and I’m very happy that it is not another season of ‘what’s wrong with Sam.’
This isn’t the best season of SPN ever, but there is a lot of potential and it is a vast improvement over the last three years. Besides…we still have SPN nine years later and I think ten, if not more, is on track. How lucky is that, to have ten years of the Winchester boys!
I definitely agree with the writer of the letter. She’s describing the same reaction and emotions that I have seen the overwhelming majority of people I follow, including those in the media, express all season long. Expectations for season 9 were very high, but the season has been very disappointing. There have been some good episodes. I’d say 9×01, 9×04, 9×06 and 9×09 were the strongest episodes. 9×03, 9×05 and 9×08 were the weakest. The rest were somewhere in between. It’s hard to point out which fans are unhappiest. Going into the season, Dean fans seemed the most outspoken about how disappointed they had been last season by the trials arc being given to Sam. I didn’t believe these fans would be given anything MORE to complain about but I was wrong. Immediately the season kickstarted with Dean violating his brother’s right to consent. He then spent the first half of the season lying and pushing away everyone that was close to him. He went back to being a womanizer, but fell a level even lower by coming across as creepy and uncaring – something that Dean had never been. Then of course his lies led to Kevin’s death. I can’t see how any Dean fan would be pleased with his current storyline. Then we have Sam fans who I haven’t seen as vocal but speaking as a Sam fan myself I can tell you that this season is yet another ‘what is wrong with sammy’ storyline where his character is sacrificed and he becomes a plot device. This season doesn’t offer anything new. We’ve seen Sam not be himself in practically half of the series. He’s been sick with demon blood, he’s lost his soul, he’s been on the verge of losing his mind, and now he’s simply gone because an angel is possessing him. Sam is one of the only characters who gets erased by the story he is supposed to be driving almost every season. Then we have Castiel fans who are more of a mix bag because some of them had high hopes for the human story arc and others never wanted that to begin with. What I have seen is that those who were excited about seeing Cas be human are now expressing disappointment. The most common criticism I have seen is that the human story had so much potential for Castiel and yet that potential was squandered that the season turned Cas into a caricature of Dean, into booze and women, and sacrificed in the process what made him unique. As far as fans more interested in relationships, I’ve seen diffferent reactions too. Those invested in the brothers bond are scratching their heads wondering how much of a bond can be explored when Sam is gone most of the time or constantly being interrupted by Ezekiel. Then there is Dean lying to Sam. Again. And there is Sam being dumbed down to keep him in the dark about what is going on. The brother’s bond has been one big lie this season. Even the line “There ain’t no me without you” came from Ezekiel, not Dean. Lastly we have fans of the relationship between Dean and Castiel, who were notably the most excited going into the new season since season 8 gave them a lot to be happy about. This new season seems to have shattered every expectation and dream they had for the season. It’s hard to hold out hope when Dean and Castiel aren’t even allowed to be in close proximity to one another. Where the season starts with Cas far away from Dean and then their paths finally cross and Dean throws him out of the bunker. Apparent too admid the loss of this close bond was how fast the writers were to hook up both Dean and Cas with other love interests. Reapers, bad dates, first loves, and porn stars is a good way to put it all in a nutshell. Fans of Dean and Cas can’t help but question why this kind of romantic story, without much substance, has been allowed to overshadow the deep love between Dean and Cas that has organically formed over half a decade but now has it’s flame nearly extinguished. And this is just touching at the tip of the ice berg of criticism I’ve seen from all kinds of fans, and this is not even touching upon the problematic social issues of consent, racism, sexism that SPN continues to have and which is increasingly upsetting more and more fans. But is the season a lost cause? I would say no. I would say that the writers are lucky to have such great ratings but they shouldn’t let that lull them into a false sense of comfort. Ratings don’t always reflect the fandom pulse. Fans are loyal. Fans are standing by the show. But they are on very shaky ground. I know this is a lot of criticism, but fans like myself put this out because they want these issues addressed and they want the show to do better. It has done better in the past and we don’t want to give up all hope for this season. I sincerely hope that as easy as it is to ignore all the criticism and just take in all the praise that someone from TPTB is paying attention to what is upsetting fans and is doing something about it. Thank you for the article. 🙂
I definitely agree with the writer of the letter. She’s describing the same reaction and emotions that I have seen the overwhelming majority of people I follow, including those in the media, express all season long. Expectations for season 9 were very high, but the season has been very disappointing. There have been some good episodes. I’d say 9×01, 9×04, 9×06 and 9×09 were the strongest episodes. 9×03, 9×05 and 9×08 were the weakest. The rest were somewhere in between. It’s hard to point out which fans are unhappiest. Going into the season, Dean fans seemed the most outspoken about how disappointed they had been last season by the trials arc being given to Sam. I didn’t believe these fans would be given anything MORE to complain about but I was wrong. Immediately the season kickstarted with Dean violating his brother’s right to consent. He then spent the first half of the season lying and pushing away everyone that was close to him. He went back to being a womanizer, but fell a level even lower by coming across as creepy and uncaring – something that Dean had never been. Then of course his lies led to Kevin’s death. I can’t see how any Dean fan would be pleased with his current storyline. Then we have Sam fans who I haven’t seen as vocal but speaking as a Sam fan myself I can tell you that this season is yet another ‘what is wrong with sammy’ storyline where his character is sacrificed and he becomes a plot device. This season doesn’t offer anything new. We’ve seen Sam not be himself in practically half of the series. He’s been sick with demon blood, he’s lost his soul, he’s been on the verge of losing his mind, and now he’s simply gone because an angel is possessing him. Sam is one of the only characters who gets erased by the story he is supposed to be driving almost every season. Then we have Castiel fans who are more of a mix bag because some of them had high hopes for the human story arc and others never wanted that to begin with. What I have seen is that those who were excited about seeing Cas be human are now expressing disappointment. The most common criticism I have seen is that the human story had so much potential for Castiel and yet that potential was squandered that the season turned Cas into a caricature of Dean, into booze and women, and sacrificed in the process what made him unique. As far as fans more interested in relationships, I’ve seen diffferent reactions too. Those invested in the brothers bond are scratching their heads wondering how much of a bond can be explored when Sam is gone most of the time or constantly being interrupted by Ezekiel. Then there is Dean lying to Sam. Again. And there is Sam being dumbed down to keep him in the dark about what is going on. The brother’s bond has been one big lie this season. Even the line “There ain’t no me without you” came from Ezekiel, not Dean. Lastly we have fans of the relationship between Dean and Castiel, who were notably the most excited going into the new season since season 8 gave them a lot to be happy about. This new season seems to have shattered every expectation and dream they had for the season. It’s hard to hold out hope when Dean and Castiel aren’t even allowed to be in close proximity to one another. Where the season starts with Cas far away from Dean and then their paths finally cross and Dean throws him out of the bunker. Apparent too admid the loss of this close bond was how fast the writers were to hook up both Dean and Cas with other love interests. Reapers, bad dates, first loves, and porn stars is a good way to put it all in a nutshell. Fans of Dean and Cas can’t help but question why this kind of romantic story, without much substance, has been allowed to overshadow the deep love between Dean and Cas that has organically formed over half a decade but now has it’s flame nearly extinguished. And this is just touching at the tip of the ice berg of criticism I’ve seen from all kinds of fans, and this is not even touching upon the problematic social issues of consent, racism, sexism that SPN continues to have and which is increasingly upsetting more and more fans. But is the season a lost cause? I would say no. I would say that the writers are lucky to have such great ratings but they shouldn’t let that lull them into a false sense of comfort. Ratings don’t always reflect the fandom pulse. Fans are loyal. Fans are standing by the show. But they are on very shaky ground. I know this is a lot of criticism, but fans like myself put this out because they want these issues addressed and they want the show to do better. It has done better in the past and we don’t want to give up all hope for this season. I sincerely hope that as easy as it is to ignore all the criticism and just take in all the praise that someone from TPTB is paying attention to what is upsetting fans and is doing something about it. Thank you for the article. 🙂
Wow the comments section here is exactly why TPTB should stick to their guns and put out the show they envision. How could they possibly come up with a show that is going to satisfy every fanfic or head cannon. What would happen if a small but vocal group was able to influence the storyline. Would every fan be happy then. I’d have to guess no. These message boards are a great place to vent or praise the show but the fans are all over the place in what they want. How could the showrunners possibly put together a show that will cater to every fans needs. It would be an incoherent mess. Haven’t the fans always been upset with what is happening to their favorite character. I know some fans will like the season, some will hate it, some will choose to move on and some will stick with it complaining to the bitter end. It seems to be the nature of fans of any show, especially one that is in it’s 9th season to want the story they want told. I know that this is a thread to vent frustrations with the show but I can’t imagine that fans will have much influence over what the showrunners have planned. It may work for some and not for others. That may end up killing the show or not we will have to see. I would just hate to see a small group of fans start a campaign to end the show if the story doesn’t go their way.
Wow the comments section here is exactly why TPTB should stick to their guns and put out the show they envision. How could they possibly come up with a show that is going to satisfy every fanfic or head cannon. What would happen if a small but vocal group was able to influence the storyline. Would every fan be happy then. I’d have to guess no. These message boards are a great place to vent or praise the show but the fans are all over the place in what they want. How could the showrunners possibly put together a show that will cater to every fans needs. It would be an incoherent mess. Haven’t the fans always been upset with what is happening to their favorite character. I know some fans will like the season, some will hate it, some will choose to move on and some will stick with it complaining to the bitter end. It seems to be the nature of fans of any show, especially one that is in it’s 9th season to want the story they want told. I know that this is a thread to vent frustrations with the show but I can’t imagine that fans will have much influence over what the showrunners have planned. It may work for some and not for others. That may end up killing the show or not we will have to see. I would just hate to see a small group of fans start a campaign to end the show if the story doesn’t go their way.
I saw this tweeted and came to comment, but JFC what is the point. It’s just the usual Cas hate.
I saw this tweeted and came to comment, but JFC what is the point. It’s just the usual Cas hate.
I hope we get more Team Free Will moments and even though Sam’s not my favorite, I like him and I’d like to actually see him this season. You know, instead of Zeke all the time. Yeah that’d be nice. I wish the show was more respectful towards women and everyone who’s not white.
My major concern would be having more Castiel but most importantly make the most of his storyline, i feel like human!cas could have been a million times better than it was. Being human doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not dignified and a ‘soldier of god’. The only episodes i felt Cas was 100% himself were 9.01 and 9.06. Considering Robert Berens (who wrote 9.06) is new, I’d say he’s done an incredible job but i’m sorry the other writers are having trouble in giving continuity to what they started.
So:
– less disrespect towards women & other cultures/ethnicity
– more in-character Cas and Dean (it’s getting to a point where i’m deeply disliking my fave characters)
– MORE SAM (we’ve practically had more Cas than Sam this season. It’s always Zeke.)
– more creativity PLEASE, there’s so much potential in this season’s arch and much of it has been awfully wasted in trivial stuff that add nothing to character development
– and of course, more of my fave character (still, hopefully) Cas
I hope we get more Team Free Will moments and even though Sam’s not my favorite, I like him and I’d like to actually see him this season. You know, instead of Zeke all the time. Yeah that’d be nice. I wish the show was more respectful towards women and everyone who’s not white.
My major concern would be having more Castiel but most importantly make the most of his storyline, i feel like human!cas could have been a million times better than it was. Being human doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not dignified and a ‘soldier of god’. The only episodes i felt Cas was 100% himself were 9.01 and 9.06. Considering Robert Berens (who wrote 9.06) is new, I’d say he’s done an incredible job but i’m sorry the other writers are having trouble in giving continuity to what they started.
So:
– less disrespect towards women & other cultures/ethnicity
– more in-character Cas and Dean (it’s getting to a point where i’m deeply disliking my fave characters)
– MORE SAM (we’ve practically had more Cas than Sam this season. It’s always Zeke.)
– more creativity PLEASE, there’s so much potential in this season’s arch and much of it has been awfully wasted in trivial stuff that add nothing to character development
– and of course, more of my fave character (still, hopefully) Cas
THIS!
[quote name=”StarMinion”]Ripley2Win eloquently described my primary disappointment and frustration with this current season especially the troubling way the consent issues were handled in regards to a reaper possessing an innocent women and tricking Castiel into having sex before torturing and murdering him. The way the characters laughed and joked about the situation afterwards disturbed me as there was nothing funny about the situation, and the fact the this pair of writers treated it that way in both 9×03 and 9×09 has me looking forward to any future episodes they write with a certain amount of dread and trepidation. My sincere hope, because I want to continue to watch and enjoy this show, is some of this constructive criticism makes it way back to the writers, so they can learn from their mistakes and give us better quality episodes on the future. Twitter, with its character limitations, is a frustrating medium in which to convey such criticisms, however unfortunately, it is the only direct line we have to writing staff.
I do think fans who are unhappy with elements of the show have the right to express that unhappiness. The Supernatural fandom is particularly fractured. You have various groups of Sam fans, Dean fans, Cas fans, shippers and non-shippers alike who all watch this show for different reasons and will have different concerns. Speaking in a general sense, we are all different people who have a wide range of varying life experiences and perceptions, so what may be upsetting and troubling to some fans may be enjoyed by another.
What comes down to is this: We all have the right as fans to express our enjoyment AND our frustration to the TPTB. Am I going to agree with everything my fellow fans praise or criticize? No, but do I think they have the right to say it? Yes. Do some fans cross the line when it comes to calling the writers names and being rude to them? Yes. One can express disappointment with the show without resorting to name calling and insults. Because we love this show and the characters so much, sometimes our passion makes it hard for us to remain civil to the writers and our fellow fans. It’s something we all need to strive to do, however, if we want the fandom to be a better place. I also think criticism is more likely to be taken seriously when it’s presented in a thoughtful, polite manner.
The writers for the show work hard, so I’m sure they enjoy the praise they receive from fans, but I do hope they consider some of the complaints as well. I think we all want the writers to continue to ask themselves: “How can I improve on what I did? How can I further hone my craft, so I can deliver an even better script than I did last time?” All good writers, all serious writers should want constructive criticism rather than nothing but praise. I sincerely hope *those* are the types of writers we have working for Supernatural rather than the type who believe they can do no wrong and are only in it for the paycheck and ego stroking.
It’s also important to remember that a TV show isn’t just an art form but also a business. If the show isn’t profitable for a network, it will get cancelled. Supernatural right now is doing very well in the ratings, but it behooves them to not become complacent and try to address issues that could potentially lead to an erosion and lack of retention in the fanbase down the line. Season 9 has disappointed me and others in a number of ways. The disturbing sex issues aside, I think the pacing has been poor with too many gimmicky filler episodes slowing down its momentum and making us feel too disconnected from the greater myth arc.
However, I do think it has the potential to turn around and pick up in the second half. The upcoming episodes dealing with the fallout of the 9×09 events and delving more deeply it angel/demon conflict, and hopefully more Team Free Will interaction as I love that dynamic, all give me cautious optimism about the future despite my current misgivings. I’m still deeply invested in the story of Castiel, Dean and Sam, and I want to find out what happens to them. Here’s hoping for the best and that season 9 wraps up with an exciting bang that has us all squealing with excitement for season 10.[/quote]
THIS!
[quote]Ripley2Win eloquently described my primary disappointment and frustration with this current season especially the troubling way the consent issues were handled in regards to a reaper possessing an innocent women and tricking Castiel into having sex before torturing and murdering him. The way the characters laughed and joked about the situation afterwards disturbed me as there was nothing funny about the situation, and the fact the this pair of writers treated it that way in both 9×03 and 9×09 has me looking forward to any future episodes they write with a certain amount of dread and trepidation. My sincere hope, because I want to continue to watch and enjoy this show, is some of this constructive criticism makes it way back to the writers, so they can learn from their mistakes and give us better quality episodes on the future. Twitter, with its character limitations, is a frustrating medium in which to convey such criticisms, however unfortunately, it is the only direct line we have to writing staff.
I do think fans who are unhappy with elements of the show have the right to express that unhappiness. The Supernatural fandom is particularly fractured. You have various groups of Sam fans, Dean fans, Cas fans, shippers and non-shippers alike who all watch this show for different reasons and will have different concerns. Speaking in a general sense, we are all different people who have a wide range of varying life experiences and perceptions, so what may be upsetting and troubling to some fans may be enjoyed by another.
What comes down to is this: We all have the right as fans to express our enjoyment AND our frustration to the TPTB. Am I going to agree with everything my fellow fans praise or criticize? No, but do I think they have the right to say it? Yes. Do some fans cross the line when it comes to calling the writers names and being rude to them? Yes. One can express disappointment with the show without resorting to name calling and insults. Because we love this show and the characters so much, sometimes our passion makes it hard for us to remain civil to the writers and our fellow fans. It’s something we all need to strive to do, however, if we want the fandom to be a better place. I also think criticism is more likely to be taken seriously when it’s presented in a thoughtful, polite manner.
The writers for the show work hard, so I’m sure they enjoy the praise they receive from fans, but I do hope they consider some of the complaints as well. I think we all want the writers to continue to ask themselves: “How can I improve on what I did? How can I further hone my craft, so I can deliver an even better script than I did last time?” All good writers, all serious writers should want constructive criticism rather than nothing but praise. I sincerely hope *those* are the types of writers we have working for Supernatural rather than the type who believe they can do no wrong and are only in it for the paycheck and ego stroking.
It’s also important to remember that a TV show isn’t just an art form but also a business. If the show isn’t profitable for a network, it will get cancelled. Supernatural right now is doing very well in the ratings, but it behooves them to not become complacent and try to address issues that could potentially lead to an erosion and lack of retention in the fanbase down the line. Season 9 has disappointed me and others in a number of ways. The disturbing sex issues aside, I think the pacing has been poor with too many gimmicky filler episodes slowing down its momentum and making us feel too disconnected from the greater myth arc.
However, I do think it has the potential to turn around and pick up in the second half. The upcoming episodes dealing with the fallout of the 9×09 events and delving more deeply it angel/demon conflict, and hopefully more Team Free Will interaction as I love that dynamic, all give me cautious optimism about the future despite my current misgivings. I’m still deeply invested in the story of Castiel, Dean and Sam, and I want to find out what happens to them. Here’s hoping for the best and that season 9 wraps up with an exciting bang that has us all squealing with excitement for season 10.[/quote]
[quote name=”Clare”]I saw this tweeted and came to comment, but JFC what is the point. It’s just the usual Cas hate.[/quote]
You may interpret it as Cas hate. I interpret it as saying what I want, which is what this article is for. I don’t hate Cas… I simply feel his story arc should have ended awhile ago, and that, for me, the story of the angel war is unappealing.
If you want more for Cas, then this is the place to say so. Please do.
[quote]I saw this tweeted and came to comment, but JFC what is the point. It’s just the usual Cas hate.[/quote]
You may interpret it as Cas hate. I interpret it as saying what I want, which is what this article is for. I don’t hate Cas… I simply feel his story arc should have ended awhile ago, and that, for me, the story of the angel war is unappealing.
If you want more for Cas, then this is the place to say so. Please do.
I was so excited after 8×23… what a fantastic cliffhanger and what a great set-up for something that could have been really exciting and epic, as Team Free Will stood united against the worst Heaven and Hell had to offer.
But nope, and I really question some of the writing choices this season, the absolute nadir for me being a sexual encounter in 9×03 that was non-con, that ended in torture and death for both parties, and that resulted in two lol!noncon dudebro high-5 moments that were in such poor taste. And while it’s true that the writing team responsible for both episodes are widely considered to be among the weaker contributors to SPN, those scripts must surely have been greenlit by the showrunner.
I also have issues with the poor continuity – it seems that nobody is making much (if any) effort to maintain it. Where is the through line that should be ensuring the characters act in ways that are informed by their past experiences? With canon dismissed as “minutiae” by one of the main writing team, it’s no wonder characterization is all over the place. Who is Sam? I’ve forgotten, and my assumption at this point is that most of the writers have never bothered to find out by watching earlier seasons of the show. What is pace, as we bounce from extreme pathos and/or high drama to Dean making eyes at a poodle? Now we’re in a situation that must surely permanently change the brothers and their relationship*, and… strap in for Garth! And the Ghostfacers!
*The one hope I have is that this season’s storyline is intended to salt and burn this utterly toxic codependency for once and for all, to get the brothers back to a place where they have agency and a degree of independence, and are hunting together because they want to and they enjoy each other’s company. Yes I do very firmly believe this show can survive and thrive on a healthy, functional bro-bond – instead of the sheer misery that has now resulted in the death of their friend as well as led to total stagnation in the main character arcs, given that we’re essentially watching the fourth iteration of the exact same storyline. And I am beyond bored of it. After 9×01 there was a Tumblr post about 80-y-o Dean creaking to the nearest crossroads in his power wheelchair and making a deal to bring back 76-y-o Sam, who had died of old age. And obviously that will never happen in the show, but it sums up my feelings about how tediously repetitive the central relationship has become for me. So sue me: I watch for Cas, who – as far as I’m concerned – is the only remotely interesting character left on the show, even if the writing for him also varies wildly in quality.
I was so excited after 8×23… what a fantastic cliffhanger and what a great set-up for something that could have been really exciting and epic, as Team Free Will stood united against the worst Heaven and Hell had to offer.
But nope, and I really question some of the writing choices this season, the absolute nadir for me being a sexual encounter in 9×03 that was non-con, that ended in torture and death for both parties, and that resulted in two lol!noncon dudebro high-5 moments that were in such poor taste. And while it’s true that the writing team responsible for both episodes are widely considered to be among the weaker contributors to SPN, those scripts must surely have been greenlit by the showrunner.
I also have issues with the poor continuity – it seems that nobody is making much (if any) effort to maintain it. Where is the through line that should be ensuring the characters act in ways that are informed by their past experiences? With canon dismissed as “minutiae” by one of the main writing team, it’s no wonder characterization is all over the place. Who is Sam? I’ve forgotten, and my assumption at this point is that most of the writers have never bothered to find out by watching earlier seasons of the show. What is pace, as we bounce from extreme pathos and/or high drama to Dean making eyes at a poodle? Now we’re in a situation that must surely permanently change the brothers and their relationship*, and… strap in for Garth! And the Ghostfacers!
*The one hope I have is that this season’s storyline is intended to salt and burn this utterly toxic codependency for once and for all, to get the brothers back to a place where they have agency and a degree of independence, and are hunting together because they want to and they enjoy each other’s company. Yes I do very firmly believe this show can survive and thrive on a healthy, functional bro-bond – instead of the sheer misery that has now resulted in the death of their friend as well as led to total stagnation in the main character arcs, given that we’re essentially watching the fourth iteration of the exact same storyline. And I am beyond bored of it. After 9×01 there was a Tumblr post about 80-y-o Dean creaking to the nearest crossroads in his power wheelchair and making a deal to bring back 76-y-o Sam, who had died of old age. And obviously that will never happen in the show, but it sums up my feelings about how tediously repetitive the central relationship has become for me. So sue me: I watch for Cas, who – as far as I’m concerned – is the only remotely interesting character left on the show, even if the writing for him also varies wildly in quality.
From std50: “You may interpret it as Cas hate. I interpret it as saying what I want, which is what this article is for. I don’t hate Cas… I simply feel his story arc should have ended awhile ago, and that, for me, the story of the angel war is unappealing.
If you want more for Cas, then this is the place to say so. Please do.” (Sorry, I somehow messed up the quoting part.)
I’ll state my feelings on Cas. I, too, think his story was over in S4. Since then, I do like the Dean/Cas scenes, but will say that no matter how TPTB push Misha/Cas, I consider him a support character and always will. I don’t enjoy the Cas-centric episodes at all. I thought his whole ‘feeling human emotions’ scenes were boring, not funny, and slowed down the episodes.
I really don’t like Cas as a third cast member, but others do, so I can FF through them unless he is with Sam or Dean. That said, I’ll take Cas over Charlie and Garth any time. I hate those characters.
Why do I have to log in every time I post???
From std50: “You may interpret it as Cas hate. I interpret it as saying what I want, which is what this article is for. I don’t hate Cas… I simply feel his story arc should have ended awhile ago, and that, for me, the story of the angel war is unappealing.
If you want more for Cas, then this is the place to say so. Please do.” (Sorry, I somehow messed up the quoting part.)
I’ll state my feelings on Cas. I, too, think his story was over in S4. Since then, I do like the Dean/Cas scenes, but will say that no matter how TPTB push Misha/Cas, I consider him a support character and always will. I don’t enjoy the Cas-centric episodes at all. I thought his whole ‘feeling human emotions’ scenes were boring, not funny, and slowed down the episodes.
I really don’t like Cas as a third cast member, but others do, so I can FF through them unless he is with Sam or Dean. That said, I’ll take Cas over Charlie and Garth any time. I hate those characters.
Why do I have to log in every time I post???
My problems with this season are very similar to a few other commenters on here. I had extremely high hopes for season 9 after “Sacrifice”, but it seems they’ve squandered a lot of the opportunities that came with that cliffhanger ending.
I was very excited for human!Cas, in a show like SPN where one of the main themes is the power of the human spirit, I was hoping for a deeper exploration of what it means to be human. Instead they reduced the entire human experience to biology. We eat, sleep, go to the bathroom, and have sex. That’s it, according to the show. Well, that’s pretty boring, I mean, my cats do the same things! They were onto something with the scene in 9.03 where Cas was in the church speaking to that woman about faith, but that apparently was boring to the writing team.
In regards to the brothers, I was very interested to see how Sam would recover from the effects of the trials, needless to say, this Zeke storyline leaves a lot to be desired. Namely Sam. I feel he’s barely been here all season, and how are we to know if he even has? It might have been Zeke all along! As for Dean, I was hoping he’d get to play a bigger part in the mytharc, but so far he’s just been reduced to lying and taking care of Sam. Not too interesting, IMO.
However, the letter really hit the nail on the head for my major problems with S9. Episode 3 was disgusting in how it handled the consent issues with April. I also hated the treatment of Suzie’s character in 9.08. Some of the writers just can’t seem to turn in a script unless it has at least one sexist remark somewhere in it. Also, I understand the stories were supposed to parallel the consent issues that arose when Dean let Zeke possess Sam, but issues such as those should be handled much more delicately than they were. I’m not saying SPN should become some sort of activist show, dedicated to eradicating misogyny and the like from the face of the earth, but I do at least expect them not to play into some of the more problematic aspects of American culture. (Like congratulating your buddy on getting laid when said activity came under dubious origins, and ended in torture and death)
Problematic as this season might be so far, I love this show, I love Sam and Dean and Cas, and I want to see them beat the bad guys and save the world, so I’m not going to give up on the show yet. I can only hope that once Sam is free from Zeke/Gadreel, that the storyline can pick back up, and we can see the boys taking on the fallen angel factions, Abaddon, Crowley, and whatever else may come.
My problems with this season are very similar to a few other commenters on here. I had extremely high hopes for season 9 after “Sacrifice”, but it seems they’ve squandered a lot of the opportunities that came with that cliffhanger ending.
I was very excited for human!Cas, in a show like SPN where one of the main themes is the power of the human spirit, I was hoping for a deeper exploration of what it means to be human. Instead they reduced the entire human experience to biology. We eat, sleep, go to the bathroom, and have sex. That’s it, according to the show. Well, that’s pretty boring, I mean, my cats do the same things! They were onto something with the scene in 9.03 where Cas was in the church speaking to that woman about faith, but that apparently was boring to the writing team.
In regards to the brothers, I was very interested to see how Sam would recover from the effects of the trials, needless to say, this Zeke storyline leaves a lot to be desired. Namely Sam. I feel he’s barely been here all season, and how are we to know if he even has? It might have been Zeke all along! As for Dean, I was hoping he’d get to play a bigger part in the mytharc, but so far he’s just been reduced to lying and taking care of Sam. Not too interesting, IMO.
However, the letter really hit the nail on the head for my major problems with S9. Episode 3 was disgusting in how it handled the consent issues with April. I also hated the treatment of Suzie’s character in 9.08. Some of the writers just can’t seem to turn in a script unless it has at least one sexist remark somewhere in it. Also, I understand the stories were supposed to parallel the consent issues that arose when Dean let Zeke possess Sam, but issues such as those should be handled much more delicately than they were. I’m not saying SPN should become some sort of activist show, dedicated to eradicating misogyny and the like from the face of the earth, but I do at least expect them not to play into some of the more problematic aspects of American culture. (Like congratulating your buddy on getting laid when said activity came under dubious origins, and ended in torture and death)
Problematic as this season might be so far, I love this show, I love Sam and Dean and Cas, and I want to see them beat the bad guys and save the world, so I’m not going to give up on the show yet. I can only hope that once Sam is free from Zeke/Gadreel, that the storyline can pick back up, and we can see the boys taking on the fallen angel factions, Abaddon, Crowley, and whatever else may come.
My POV is that I am in til the end, mainly because I like to enjoy the things I like and perhaps let go of what I don’t like. I will never understand the whole demon blood arc for Sam, but I still enjoy the show, the actor’s chemistry and a whole bunch of little things. There are always episodes that I could have done without in each season and there are always some things that are left unfinished that I think about but will never be answered.
But, I look for what I enjoy: the way Dean says “Sam”‘ the painful things they do or say to each other (as siblings do), the things that make me laugh or cry, the things that relate to my perspective, the beauty of these men and more important, the talent that leaves me in awe.
Is it perfect? By no means. But, it is still, and has been for years, the best show on television. It is oddly relatable considering the subject. I get angry at these two, I am happy or sad for them, I even have wishes for them. So when something happens that makes no sense, I pull back and try to see what I love and almost every episode has given me something (Bitten would be the exception) to enjoy.
Like everyone, I don’t mind discussion or respectful criticisms, I do that myself. I can pick apart the inconsistencies with the best of them. And yet, when done, I can smile and enjoy or angst over what follows. So No, show is not driving me away at all. I am filled with hope and anxiety for what is to come, and if it is not what I imagined, I have hope that I will enjoy the surprise.
My POV is that I am in til the end, mainly because I like to enjoy the things I like and perhaps let go of what I don’t like. I will never understand the whole demon blood arc for Sam, but I still enjoy the show, the actor’s chemistry and a whole bunch of little things. There are always episodes that I could have done without in each season and there are always some things that are left unfinished that I think about but will never be answered.
But, I look for what I enjoy: the way Dean says “Sam”‘ the painful things they do or say to each other (as siblings do), the things that make me laugh or cry, the things that relate to my perspective, the beauty of these men and more important, the talent that leaves me in awe.
Is it perfect? By no means. But, it is still, and has been for years, the best show on television. It is oddly relatable considering the subject. I get angry at these two, I am happy or sad for them, I even have wishes for them. So when something happens that makes no sense, I pull back and try to see what I love and almost every episode has given me something (Bitten would be the exception) to enjoy.
Like everyone, I don’t mind discussion or respectful criticisms, I do that myself. I can pick apart the inconsistencies with the best of them. And yet, when done, I can smile and enjoy or angst over what follows. So No, show is not driving me away at all. I am filled with hope and anxiety for what is to come, and if it is not what I imagined, I have hope that I will enjoy the surprise.
ThisOldBag @20- I tend to agree with your comment. You view things much like I do! Maybe it is because I am an “old bag” too. 😉
****************
As for myself I really don’t mind reading constructive respectful criticism of the show or any of the characters. The characters are not perfect nor is the show. You should be able to say you dislike a character without it being labeled “hate”!
I am in it for the long haul. There are few shows I even bother to watch anymore because of my schedule and because most of them bore me. This show makes me happy, sad, angry, frustrated and other emotions but it doesn’t bore me. I cherish the earlier seasons but I find many things to still love about the show. Not the least of which are Jared and Jensen who continue to delight and amaze me with their performances. They have not lost an iota of their love and enthusiasm for the show, and if for nothing else, I will be in it till the end!
ThisOldBag @20- I tend to agree with your comment. You view things much like I do! Maybe it is because I am an “old bag” too. 😉
****************
As for myself I really don’t mind reading constructive respectful criticism of the show or any of the characters. The characters are not perfect nor is the show. You should be able to say you dislike a character without it being labeled “hate”!
I am in it for the long haul. There are few shows I even bother to watch anymore because of my schedule and because most of them bore me. This show makes me happy, sad, angry, frustrated and other emotions but it doesn’t bore me. I cherish the earlier seasons but I find many things to still love about the show. Not the least of which are Jared and Jensen who continue to delight and amaze me with their performances. They have not lost an iota of their love and enthusiasm for the show, and if for nothing else, I will be in it till the end!
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Wow the comments section here is exactly why TPTB should stick to their guns and put out the show they envision. How could they possibly come up with a show that is going to satisfy every fanfic or head cannon. [/quote]
May I just say AMEN. I’m only along for the ride. I think it’s wonderful that fans feel such ownership of the show but it’s not American Idol.
[quote]Wow the comments section here is exactly why TPTB should stick to their guns and put out the show they envision. How could they possibly come up with a show that is going to satisfy every fanfic or head cannon. [/quote]
May I just say AMEN. I’m only along for the ride. I think it’s wonderful that fans feel such ownership of the show but it’s not American Idol.
I’ve been a huge SPN fan since the Pilot. I loved Season 1, when the boys were on the back roads in the Impala, in crappy motel rooms, and we could tell Dean was worried about Sammy just by the way he looked at him. I would love for the show to get that feeling back.
But the writers need to write the show. The fans should not think writing the show is their job.
I love Sam and Dean. I love Jared and Jensen. I am having trouble envisioning life without them. I do not want this show to end! I want Sam and Dean to surprise me with SPN stories every week for a long long time!
I’ve been a huge SPN fan since the Pilot. I loved Season 1, when the boys were on the back roads in the Impala, in crappy motel rooms, and we could tell Dean was worried about Sammy just by the way he looked at him. I would love for the show to get that feeling back.
But the writers need to write the show. The fans should not think writing the show is their job.
I love Sam and Dean. I love Jared and Jensen. I am having trouble envisioning life without them. I do not want this show to end! I want Sam and Dean to surprise me with SPN stories every week for a long long time!
[quote name=”mary9930″][quote name=”cheryl42″]Wow the comments section here is exactly why TPTB should stick to their guns and put out the show they envision. How could they possibly come up with a show that is going to satisfy every fanfic or head cannon. [/quote]
May I just say AMEN. I’m only along for the ride. I think it’s wonderful that fans feel such ownership of the show but it’s not American Idol.[/quote]
I agree that I don’t want the show to whimsically follow every fans wishes. That would be ridiculous.
However, fans saying what works for them, what doesn’t, and what they would like to see does NOT imply that they feel “ownership” of the plot.
It is “my show” in that it is the only one I – without fail – sit down to watch live, and, for the majority of episodes, repeat watch. As a fanatic, I feel within my rights to discuss what I like and what I don’t. As should every other fan. Even those along for the ride should feel free to respectfully critique, imo.
[quote][quote]Wow the comments section here is exactly why TPTB should stick to their guns and put out the show they envision. How could they possibly come up with a show that is going to satisfy every fanfic or head cannon. [/quote]
May I just say AMEN. I’m only along for the ride. I think it’s wonderful that fans feel such ownership of the show but it’s not American Idol.[/quote]
I agree that I don’t want the show to whimsically follow every fans wishes. That would be ridiculous.
However, fans saying what works for them, what doesn’t, and what they would like to see does NOT imply that they feel “ownership” of the plot.
It is “my show” in that it is the only one I – without fail – sit down to watch live, and, for the majority of episodes, repeat watch. As a fanatic, I feel within my rights to discuss what I like and what I don’t. As should every other fan. Even those along for the ride should feel free to respectfully critique, imo.
Alice, I am worried about your comment, “I’m having quite a few struggles with “Supernatural” and the fandom in general these days myself.” I tend to worry about you anyway, because I am a mother hen.
The fandom: There are several posters here that I hold dear to my heart. (I worry about them too.) The rest of the time I have to remember that on-line fans are definitely a minority when the viewers number approximately 2 million. I hope I got that number right.
That means there are tons of fans that are out there enjoying the show without thinking about it so hard that they become overly critical! I was just [i]shocked[/i] into being a new person when I discovered SPN “fan” sites. I had no idea feelings were so overly strong. I had no idea about a lot of subjects about which posters felt so strongly!
So it makes me happy to think that the majority of the fans are not online and therefore are not broadcasting complaints. 😉
Alice, I am worried about your comment, “I’m having quite a few struggles with “Supernatural” and the fandom in general these days myself.” I tend to worry about you anyway, because I am a mother hen.
The fandom: There are several posters here that I hold dear to my heart. (I worry about them too.) The rest of the time I have to remember that on-line fans are definitely a minority when the viewers number approximately 2 million. I hope I got that number right.
That means there are tons of fans that are out there enjoying the show without thinking about it so hard that they become overly critical! I was just [i]shocked[/i] into being a new person when I discovered SPN “fan” sites. I had no idea feelings were so overly strong. I had no idea about a lot of subjects about which posters felt so strongly!
So it makes me happy to think that the majority of the fans are not online and therefore are not broadcasting complaints. 😉
First, congrats to Ripley2Win for finding something she likes (writing) and pursuing that talent. Good for you, Ripley2Win – and I am thrilled to hear that the show helped you discover your talent. To be honest, I did not have the same concern about the Cas/April hook up. He had no way of knowing she was possessed when she willingly made love to him – and I like that he has a good memory of at least part of his first time, even though she turned out to be evil – and I thought Cas being able to talk a bit about it with his buddy, Dean was nice. I understand why you are offended – I am just not by that. I see it differently, but respect your feelings.
Second, the show:
I have watched the show since the pilot. I have never missed an episode. Most shows do not keep my interest for a whole season (cough, Revolution, cough), let alone nine! My favorite seasons are still the first 3. The brothers putting family first, being badass guys raised to be warriors who still could have fun. The brother dynamic from the first episode when they jostled each other aside doing research in the library, Dean teasing Sam for being a geek and Sam rolling his eyes at Dean hitting on women – all the while appreciating each other and having the other’s back, no matter what. That great chemistry between the two leads, playing men of honor who always try to save people – this is the heart of the show to me.
Each season, there have been a couple shows I have liked less than others – but honestly only a couple a season. And, there have been a couple storylines I have liked less than others (The Amelia story never worked for me). However, at the end of each season, I have re-watched the entire season – and every time, I still loved the show by the end. Example – hated soulless Sam when I initially watched those 10 episodes. Watching the whole season, though, I enjoyed the episodes (although, I do note that when picking my favorite episodes for the series, those episodes never make the list).
As to season 9 so far – I am really enjoying it. I have liked the brothers working together, the monster of the week stories, and the set up for the second half with the angels, Crowley and Abaddon has me eager to see what is next. And of course, eager to see Sam kick out that angel and the brothers take on the world together. There have been a few things here and there I did not like, but I never know how much they will bug me in the long run until I re-watch the whole season. For instance, it bugs me when the brothers are the ones knocked aside and getting saved by characters like Charlie and Jodi. Nothing against them – and like them in an episode here and there – but the brothers are badass and I prefer they do the slaying of the bad guys. Again, though, in the scheme of things, not sure how much that will matter in context of whole season.
I look forward to seeing where the writers take us next. The 2 brothers, warriors, putting family first, taking on all comers, saving people. Sign me up to watch that. Wherever the rest of the season goes, I will stay with them if that dynamic is there.
First, congrats to Ripley2Win for finding something she likes (writing) and pursuing that talent. Good for you, Ripley2Win – and I am thrilled to hear that the show helped you discover your talent. To be honest, I did not have the same concern about the Cas/April hook up. He had no way of knowing she was possessed when she willingly made love to him – and I like that he has a good memory of at least part of his first time, even though she turned out to be evil – and I thought Cas being able to talk a bit about it with his buddy, Dean was nice. I understand why you are offended – I am just not by that. I see it differently, but respect your feelings.
Second, the show:
I have watched the show since the pilot. I have never missed an episode. Most shows do not keep my interest for a whole season (cough, Revolution, cough), let alone nine! My favorite seasons are still the first 3. The brothers putting family first, being badass guys raised to be warriors who still could have fun. The brother dynamic from the first episode when they jostled each other aside doing research in the library, Dean teasing Sam for being a geek and Sam rolling his eyes at Dean hitting on women – all the while appreciating each other and having the other’s back, no matter what. That great chemistry between the two leads, playing men of honor who always try to save people – this is the heart of the show to me.
Each season, there have been a couple shows I have liked less than others – but honestly only a couple a season. And, there have been a couple storylines I have liked less than others (The Amelia story never worked for me). However, at the end of each season, I have re-watched the entire season – and every time, I still loved the show by the end. Example – hated soulless Sam when I initially watched those 10 episodes. Watching the whole season, though, I enjoyed the episodes (although, I do note that when picking my favorite episodes for the series, those episodes never make the list).
As to season 9 so far – I am really enjoying it. I have liked the brothers working together, the monster of the week stories, and the set up for the second half with the angels, Crowley and Abaddon has me eager to see what is next. And of course, eager to see Sam kick out that angel and the brothers take on the world together. There have been a few things here and there I did not like, but I never know how much they will bug me in the long run until I re-watch the whole season. For instance, it bugs me when the brothers are the ones knocked aside and getting saved by characters like Charlie and Jodi. Nothing against them – and like them in an episode here and there – but the brothers are badass and I prefer they do the slaying of the bad guys. Again, though, in the scheme of things, not sure how much that will matter in context of whole season.
I look forward to seeing where the writers take us next. The 2 brothers, warriors, putting family first, taking on all comers, saving people. Sign me up to watch that. Wherever the rest of the season goes, I will stay with them if that dynamic is there.
To help me, MY REVIEWS of S9 ep1-9:
“I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here” Jeremy Carver started off with one of the best premieres. Not much to say other than after this, everyone was STOKED for S9. Not a ton of “should Dean have done that?” comments yet as I think everyone was buzzing over this start for a week. 4/4.
“Devil May Care” lots of good Abaddon, but the last showdown scenes were a bit sloppy, however her scene with Dean is worth 2 stars alone. Great Sam/Zeke transformation scene, cool idea about Demon list from Crowley. Overall, this was solid with a few misses, but was moving S9 story forward. 3/4.
“I’m No Angel” Fandom buzz took a big hit. TONS of comments about the Reaper possession, Cas’s 1st time, and the overall mess these writers are. I won’t get into the “rape” of the human possessed, because no one has ever mentioned the human inside as demons are murdering left and right, we know the humans inside (who usually die anyway) go through unspeakable hell. GOOD things, I like Cas getting a tattoo, all of Cas’s scenes as a homeless human were excellent and sad. I also like the shock of the end, Cas having to leave, but would have liked to see a bit more of that conversation and him actually going. Did he walk away, get a ride from Dean, take a bus? 2.5/4.
“Slumber Party” Complaints: Charlie never got the “Angel PC” up and running, an idea that was never mentioned again. Other than the boys updating Charlie on what’s gone down, this did not move S9 story forward. I loved everything else. Charlie is in a favorite character on any TV show, I like Robbie Thompson’s ep. 4 “something different” mentality (again, I loved “Bitten”). I also liked the “Oz” spin, not easy to fold into the SPN world, but Robbie did it. 3.5/4
“Dog Dean Afternoon” I did not like the snarky animals, I know most did. Hated most of the voices. Jensen was as good as ever. For me, once the voices started, this turned into slapstick, but I wanted the ep to be less so. What if there were NO voices at all? We only saw Dean react to the voices he heard? Personally I think that make have worked better. I loved the Sam/Zeke change towards the end, and LOVE Chef Leo eating the animals for their traits. I love when the show takes twisted, creepy turns like that. Again we have no advance of S9 story2.5/4
“Heaven Can’t Wait” Alice had mentioned before this ep among others did not advance S9 story, but I disagree. I was hoping this is what S9 would be full of. This is a MOTW story, but the “M” is an Angel. We got excellent Cas story, an interesting Angel “M”, I loved the story flipping between Dean/Cas, and Sam/Kevin/Crowley in the MOL. THIS should have been typical S9 stuff. With so many Angels on Earth, why not have them be the “M” when doing MOTW eps? Crowley’s blood injection at the end was a great shocker I feel was not later addresses as it should have been, and the last scene with Cas returning to work, doing his thing, then going to the window and looking up to Heaven was perfect. Kudos new writer Rob Spera for giving us what I wanted to see as typical in S9. 3.5/4.
“Bad Boys” Loved this story. Young Dean was perfect. Sonny I would love to see return. TONS of divided fandom and heated discussions, and no real S9 movement forward, but I am in the camp of I love flashbacks. We’ve seen it before? Not IMO, as we saw Dean was 100% committed to his life at that young age, even if he got a Club Med 2 month free membership. I don’t have any different feeling of John Winchester, this was not out of character for him IMO. 3.5/4.
“Rock and a Hard Place” I love Jody, period. I was not offended in the least with the Dean sex. My favorite throw away moment of the season is here, when the thirsty girl licks/drinks the blood running down her hand, and other girl sees it and has a perfect, shocked reaction. TWISTED and great! Rather than a Vesta, why could the “M” not be an Angel who does not like non-virgins or something like that? A lot of this ep fell flat for me, but I loved the ending. 2/4.
“Holy Terror” WOW, these writers came through! I believe because of the noise after “I’m No Angel” TPTB helped tweak this script. Maybe a few misses here and there, but I fully enjoyed everything from start to finish, and the ending….I have not been shocked to the point of yelling and covering my mouth in so long, and was speechless for 10 minutes on my couch before I could move. 4/4.
To help me, MY REVIEWS of S9 ep1-9:
“I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here” Jeremy Carver started off with one of the best premieres. Not much to say other than after this, everyone was STOKED for S9. Not a ton of “should Dean have done that?” comments yet as I think everyone was buzzing over this start for a week. 4/4.
“Devil May Care” lots of good Abaddon, but the last showdown scenes were a bit sloppy, however her scene with Dean is worth 2 stars alone. Great Sam/Zeke transformation scene, cool idea about Demon list from Crowley. Overall, this was solid with a few misses, but was moving S9 story forward. 3/4.
“I’m No Angel” Fandom buzz took a big hit. TONS of comments about the Reaper possession, Cas’s 1st time, and the overall mess these writers are. I won’t get into the “rape” of the human possessed, because no one has ever mentioned the human inside as demons are murdering left and right, we know the humans inside (who usually die anyway) go through unspeakable hell. GOOD things, I like Cas getting a tattoo, all of Cas’s scenes as a homeless human were excellent and sad. I also like the shock of the end, Cas having to leave, but would have liked to see a bit more of that conversation and him actually going. Did he walk away, get a ride from Dean, take a bus? 2.5/4.
“Slumber Party” Complaints: Charlie never got the “Angel PC” up and running, an idea that was never mentioned again. Other than the boys updating Charlie on what’s gone down, this did not move S9 story forward. I loved everything else. Charlie is in a favorite character on any TV show, I like Robbie Thompson’s ep. 4 “something different” mentality (again, I loved “Bitten”). I also liked the “Oz” spin, not easy to fold into the SPN world, but Robbie did it. 3.5/4
“Dog Dean Afternoon” I did not like the snarky animals, I know most did. Hated most of the voices. Jensen was as good as ever. For me, once the voices started, this turned into slapstick, but I wanted the ep to be less so. What if there were NO voices at all? We only saw Dean react to the voices he heard? Personally I think that make have worked better. I loved the Sam/Zeke change towards the end, and LOVE Chef Leo eating the animals for their traits. I love when the show takes twisted, creepy turns like that. Again we have no advance of S9 story2.5/4
“Heaven Can’t Wait” Alice had mentioned before this ep among others did not advance S9 story, but I disagree. I was hoping this is what S9 would be full of. This is a MOTW story, but the “M” is an Angel. We got excellent Cas story, an interesting Angel “M”, I loved the story flipping between Dean/Cas, and Sam/Kevin/Crowley in the MOL. THIS should have been typical S9 stuff. With so many Angels on Earth, why not have them be the “M” when doing MOTW eps? Crowley’s blood injection at the end was a great shocker I feel was not later addresses as it should have been, and the last scene with Cas returning to work, doing his thing, then going to the window and looking up to Heaven was perfect. Kudos new writer Rob Spera for giving us what I wanted to see as typical in S9. 3.5/4.
“Bad Boys” Loved this story. Young Dean was perfect. Sonny I would love to see return. TONS of divided fandom and heated discussions, and no real S9 movement forward, but I am in the camp of I love flashbacks. We’ve seen it before? Not IMO, as we saw Dean was 100% committed to his life at that young age, even if he got a Club Med 2 month free membership. I don’t have any different feeling of John Winchester, this was not out of character for him IMO. 3.5/4.
“Rock and a Hard Place” I love Jody, period. I was not offended in the least with the Dean sex. My favorite throw away moment of the season is here, when the thirsty girl licks/drinks the blood running down her hand, and other girl sees it and has a perfect, shocked reaction. TWISTED and great! Rather than a Vesta, why could the “M” not be an Angel who does not like non-virgins or something like that? A lot of this ep fell flat for me, but I loved the ending. 2/4.
“Holy Terror” WOW, these writers came through! I believe because of the noise after “I’m No Angel” TPTB helped tweak this script. Maybe a few misses here and there, but I fully enjoyed everything from start to finish, and the ending….I have not been shocked to the point of yelling and covering my mouth in so long, and was speechless for 10 minutes on my couch before I could move. 4/4.
[quote name=”Nate”]…CONT…quote]
Average of the first 9 eps is 3.16, so a “B” average. When I adjust for the overall Season, I add things like the greatness that Jared and Jensen are, the top-notch production values, Men of Letters getting move screen time, return of Charlie and Jody. But I subtract for far too little Cas, Crowley, Kevin, NO Garth, no follow up on things like the Angel PC tracker and Crowley blood stealing, and too many MOTW that all but halt finding out what should be an Earth Gone Wild with Angels roaming, going to war, some not having a clue what they are doing there, not sure how to deal with humans or maybe what is right or wrong. How about Angels that hate humans because of God’s love and their jealously of that? I can think of so many interesting things going on as a result of Angels falling and Crowley’s (the King of Hell!) aftermath…..why can’t the writers? Heaven is EMPTY…..and we see a case of talking dogs? Come on.
Fandom seems to be particular vicious this season. Maybe we’re getting cranky in our old age? ? I kid of course, but it has gotten to the point where it’s no fun to post personal opinions, to have them attacked, over and over again. I love conversation and sharing opinions, but some posts get heated to where it’s ridiculous. There is a lot of passion here, it will happen.
I hope the rest of the Season (we still have 60% of it left) focuses more on the Angels falling, Cas, Crowley, we see Garth again, and overall focuses mostly on the S9 stuff and less on MOTW. When we do get MOTW, have it somehow pertain to Angels or have some forward movement on the S9 arc.
Like others mentioned here, I will be with the show until the end. Wouldn’t it be great if Revolution was cancelled, and Eric and Ben came back for a final S10, along with Jeremy Carver too?
[quote]…CONT…quote]
Average of the first 9 eps is 3.16, so a “B” average. When I adjust for the overall Season, I add things like the greatness that Jared and Jensen are, the top-notch production values, Men of Letters getting move screen time, return of Charlie and Jody. But I subtract for far too little Cas, Crowley, Kevin, NO Garth, no follow up on things like the Angel PC tracker and Crowley blood stealing, and too many MOTW that all but halt finding out what should be an Earth Gone Wild with Angels roaming, going to war, some not having a clue what they are doing there, not sure how to deal with humans or maybe what is right or wrong. How about Angels that hate humans because of God’s love and their jealously of that? I can think of so many interesting things going on as a result of Angels falling and Crowley’s (the King of Hell!) aftermath…..why can’t the writers? Heaven is EMPTY…..and we see a case of talking dogs? Come on.
Fandom seems to be particular vicious this season. Maybe we’re getting cranky in our old age? ? I kid of course, but it has gotten to the point where it’s no fun to post personal opinions, to have them attacked, over and over again. I love conversation and sharing opinions, but some posts get heated to where it’s ridiculous. There is a lot of passion here, it will happen.
I hope the rest of the Season (we still have 60% of it left) focuses more on the Angels falling, Cas, Crowley, we see Garth again, and overall focuses mostly on the S9 stuff and less on MOTW. When we do get MOTW, have it somehow pertain to Angels or have some forward movement on the S9 arc.
Like others mentioned here, I will be with the show until the end. Wouldn’t it be great if Revolution was cancelled, and Eric and Ben came back for a final S10, along with Jeremy Carver too?
@ st50 #24,
Sorry if you thought my comment meant that I don’t want you or any other fans to critique the show. Bring it on! This site is an ideal forum to discuss likes & dislikes about the show. I hope fans never stop feeling it is their show and wanting it to be the best it can be. My point is that I don’t want the fans to be able to control the direction of the show. As cheryl42 mentioned we have different opinions about it and I don’t want it up for a vote.
@ st50 #24,
Sorry if you thought my comment meant that I don’t want you or any other fans to critique the show. Bring it on! This site is an ideal forum to discuss likes & dislikes about the show. I hope fans never stop feeling it is their show and wanting it to be the best it can be. My point is that I don’t want the fans to be able to control the direction of the show. As cheryl42 mentioned we have different opinions about it and I don’t want it up for a vote.
#24st50 That is why it is so wonderful that we have websites like this one to come to and discuss the show. I too am a little worried that Alice is giving up on the show and this website. It is the only place that is a safe haven to discuss the show without being attacked by the other posters. You may not agree with my point of view but I never feel disrespected for voicing it. I am with the show to the end (S15?). I would be sad if there wasn’t a fun safe place to read reviews, make comments and read the well thought out articulate responses from the posters here. There are very few, if any other websites like this one. I hope that the season improves for those who are disappointed so far.
#24st50 That is why it is so wonderful that we have websites like this one to come to and discuss the show. I too am a little worried that Alice is giving up on the show and this website. It is the only place that is a safe haven to discuss the show without being attacked by the other posters. You may not agree with my point of view but I never feel disrespected for voicing it. I am with the show to the end (S15?). I would be sad if there wasn’t a fun safe place to read reviews, make comments and read the well thought out articulate responses from the posters here. There are very few, if any other websites like this one. I hope that the season improves for those who are disappointed so far.
My 2 cents without reading anyone else, only the main article.
[quote]I made myself a promise: I would learn how to write. That’s how I have spent the last couple of years. I am the primary caregiver to my elderly mother with post stroke progressive dementia. When she sleeps I write. I started with writing fanfics. Yes, they were flawed but I learned two things: it is easy for me to come up with story ideas and that I really like writing dialogue. Now my focus is completely on my own original works (two novels, a screenplay and two possible TV series – I may be a petite lady but I think big). “Supernatural” was the catalyst for crucial personal decisions as well as maintaining my sanity during period of being a caregiver.. [/quote]
Rock on! That’s why I try to explain to people when I do my own [url=http://spnverse.wordpress.com/]fanfictions[/url] or “[url=https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/129-season-nine/18191-how-i-m-no-angel-could-have-been-divine]how it could have beens[/url]”. I don’t even think they have to try that hard just… a little more.
[quote]I criticize this show because I care. I refuse to let anyone , including The Powers That Be, show writers, SPN family or hate tweeters/bloggers, tell me that I any less of a fan because I question things, like consent issues in 9.03, queer-baiting, etc. I don’t want to change the opinion of any other “Supernatural” fan but I refuse to sit down, shut up or get out.[/quote]
It used to be a joke that with Star Trek, odd number movies suck (etc). With SPN I’m starting to think it’s a “rule of 3”. If the season is a multiple of 3, it’s not going to be good (previously seen as seasons 3 & 6). Indeed I think there’s a lot of parallels between this season and S6. This one is at least better than S6 but I don’t think it’s yet surpassed S3 and they’ll need to put more work in to get there.
TPTB have to remember that this isn’t a new series. There is a history and canon to it so they need to take a step back, a deep breath, and let the weight of the past be a benefit to their writing and a challenge to improve the same rather than a problem to just shove out of the way into a ditch.
My 2 cents without reading anyone else, only the main article.
[quote]I made myself a promise: I would learn how to write. That’s how I have spent the last couple of years. I am the primary caregiver to my elderly mother with post stroke progressive dementia. When she sleeps I write. I started with writing fanfics. Yes, they were flawed but I learned two things: it is easy for me to come up with story ideas and that I really like writing dialogue. Now my focus is completely on my own original works (two novels, a screenplay and two possible TV series – I may be a petite lady but I think big). “Supernatural” was the catalyst for crucial personal decisions as well as maintaining my sanity during period of being a caregiver.. [/quote]
Rock on! That’s why I try to explain to people when I do my own fanfictions ([url]http://spnverse.wordpress.com/[/url]) or “how it could have beens ([url]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/129-season-nine/18191-how-i-m-no-angel-could-have-been-divine[/url])”. I don’t even think they have to try that hard just… a little more.
[quote]I criticize this show because I care. I refuse to let anyone , including The Powers That Be, show writers, SPN family or hate tweeters/bloggers, tell me that I any less of a fan because I question things, like consent issues in 9.03, queer-baiting, etc. I don’t want to change the opinion of any other “Supernatural” fan but I refuse to sit down, shut up or get out.[/quote]
It used to be a joke that with Star Trek, odd number movies suck (etc). With SPN I’m starting to think it’s a “rule of 3”. If the season is a multiple of 3, it’s not going to be good (previously seen as seasons 3 & 6). Indeed I think there’s a lot of parallels between this season and S6. This one is at least better than S6 but I don’t think it’s yet surpassed S3 and they’ll need to put more work in to get there.
TPTB have to remember that this isn’t a new series. There is a history and canon to it so they need to take a step back, a deep breath, and let the weight of the past be a benefit to their writing and a challenge to improve the same rather than a problem to just shove out of the way into a ditch.
I only found SPN midway through Season 5. I got hooked soon after. Naturally there are few eps each year that aren’t quite up to speed for me, but it’s expected in any TV show, esp one that is 9 years old now.
Season 9 is quite good, I think. But I watch to watch and enjoy the boys and the power, fun, emotion, etc of the show. I don’t let inconsistencies bother me (heck, a lot of times they go right over my head, haha), because then I focus too much on that and not enough on the SHOW as a whole.
I found out pretty quickly that rabid fandom associated with SPN and that part of that wasn’t for me…mainly the constant bickering that went on (and still does) about who has the best storyline…Sam vs Dean girls…I don’t understand all of that really, but I respect each person’s decision to feel as they must about the show they love. And now I tend to avoid a lot of those boards, etc that seem to only care about the negative and fighting.
I tend to be a positive thinker in general and my thoughts are that this show wont be on forever. That it’s lasted this long is a darned miracle. I want to enjoy every second of it while I can so I don’t regret it once the ride is over.
There is good and bad in every season. Flaws and perfection. But this show has proven again in this Season 9 that it can still make me think and care and wonder at the characters and their stories.
I certainly don’t agree with every direction the showrunners and writers have gone, but this show more than anything else on TV, takes chances and it dares you to follow along and keep giving a crap about these 2 guys year after year.
Anyway…love the conversation here as always, from everyone. Looking forward to January and the return of SPN!
I only found SPN midway through Season 5. I got hooked soon after. Naturally there are few eps each year that aren’t quite up to speed for me, but it’s expected in any TV show, esp one that is 9 years old now.
Season 9 is quite good, I think. But I watch to watch and enjoy the boys and the power, fun, emotion, etc of the show. I don’t let inconsistencies bother me (heck, a lot of times they go right over my head, haha), because then I focus too much on that and not enough on the SHOW as a whole.
I found out pretty quickly that rabid fandom associated with SPN and that part of that wasn’t for me…mainly the constant bickering that went on (and still does) about who has the best storyline…Sam vs Dean girls…I don’t understand all of that really, but I respect each person’s decision to feel as they must about the show they love. And now I tend to avoid a lot of those boards, etc that seem to only care about the negative and fighting.
I tend to be a positive thinker in general and my thoughts are that this show wont be on forever. That it’s lasted this long is a darned miracle. I want to enjoy every second of it while I can so I don’t regret it once the ride is over.
There is good and bad in every season. Flaws and perfection. But this show has proven again in this Season 9 that it can still make me think and care and wonder at the characters and their stories.
I certainly don’t agree with every direction the showrunners and writers have gone, but this show more than anything else on TV, takes chances and it dares you to follow along and keep giving a crap about these 2 guys year after year.
Anyway…love the conversation here as always, from everyone. Looking forward to January and the return of SPN!
#32hinkid my sister is a brand new fan as is her whole family. I told her to avoid fansites like the plague. 🙂
#32hinkid my sister is a brand new fan as is her whole family. I told her to avoid fansites like the plague. 🙂
quote from Grace 232
I have watched the show since the pilot. I have never missed an episode. Most shows do not keep my interest for a whole season (cough, Revolution, cough), let alone nine! My favorite seasons are still the first 3. The brothers putting family first, being badass guys raised to be warriors who still could have fun. The brother dynamic from the first episode when they jostled each other aside doing research in the library, Dean teasing Sam for being a geek and Sam rolling his eyes at Dean hitting on women – all the while appreciating each other and having the other’s back, no matter what. That great chemistry between the two leads, playing men of honor who always try to save people – this is the heart of the show to me. unquote
This, this is why I love the show. This is why I love Dean and Sam. This is the relationship, the unhealthy relationship, the relationship I would love to have had with a sibling!
This is the ONLY show I will never miss watching live! The only characters I emotionally care about. This is all due to the incredibly talented J & J who have continually brought their very best to this show for 8 1/2 years now. I love Sam and Dean as if they were my own boys or grandsons. And because of learning about my favourite boys, I have also loved and will continue to love Jared and Jensen. They are both awesome men!
All that doesn’t mean I am in love with every episode produced. That does apply to every episode from the Pilot up to and including “Lazarus Rising”. The first 3 seasons embodied, for me, the perfect series I’ve been waiting for for the last 50 years. I never tire of watching any of those episodes again and again. (even Bugs, Rte 666 and Red Sky). Loved, each and every one of them.
Not so, for season 4. Still an enjoyable season, but heart breaking in the schism with the brothers. I was so disappointed when in the very first episode, Sam lied to Dean’s face and kept Ruby and his powers a secret from him. I longed for them to be again on the same page, with the same loving and teasing companionship they had before Hell.
Heartbreaking to lose Ellen and Jo, but what an emotional episode for all involved. “And then There were None” disappointed me greatly as all of my boys (including Bobby) killed characters not deserving of it, and showed not a smidge of regret! Even though they were not themselves at the time, I would have expected SOME emotional regret. Dean killed his cousin Gwen and it didn’t seem to bother him. Bobby killed his long time partner and friend and then seemed to forget about it. Sam killed his grandfather who was possessed, but demanded that no one hurt Dean when Dean was possessed.???? To this day in my rewatches I have to skip that one if I’m in a depressed mood.
Killing Bobby was not needed. Not for dramatic effect or for the story line. That was Sera Gamble’s biggest blunder ever, and she had written some great episodes before. It was NOT necessary!!
I have not seen myself the so-called sexual, racial, John bashing or gay-bashing that others see. I’ve seen none of that.
I am tired of the crappy angels and their crappy wars. I would like for Dean and Sam to have a little control of their lives. I would wish for Sam to be himself and healthy for once in the last 6 seasons.
I would wish Sam could be looking out for Dean for a change and perhaps save his brother for once.
I would wish for them not to be pulled hither and yon by outside forces they can’t control.
I was loving season 9 right up to the end of “Holy Terror” when Kevin was killed merely for shock value.The guilt for Dean is an unbearable hurt for me. Why he isn’t going to eat his gun is the question the writers will have to answer. I’m hoping Cas can bring Kevin back, but don’t believe they will go that way. 🙁
Even with my complaints, no matter what hell the writers put my boys through, I will stick with them and never desert this amazing show!
quote from Grace 232
I have watched the show since the pilot. I have never missed an episode. Most shows do not keep my interest for a whole season (cough, Revolution, cough), let alone nine! My favorite seasons are still the first 3. The brothers putting family first, being badass guys raised to be warriors who still could have fun. The brother dynamic from the first episode when they jostled each other aside doing research in the library, Dean teasing Sam for being a geek and Sam rolling his eyes at Dean hitting on women – all the while appreciating each other and having the other’s back, no matter what. That great chemistry between the two leads, playing men of honor who always try to save people – this is the heart of the show to me. unquote
This, this is why I love the show. This is why I love Dean and Sam. This is the relationship, the unhealthy relationship, the relationship I would love to have had with a sibling!
This is the ONLY show I will never miss watching live! The only characters I emotionally care about. This is all due to the incredibly talented J & J who have continually brought their very best to this show for 8 1/2 years now. I love Sam and Dean as if they were my own boys or grandsons. And because of learning about my favourite boys, I have also loved and will continue to love Jared and Jensen. They are both awesome men!
All that doesn’t mean I am in love with every episode produced. That does apply to every episode from the Pilot up to and including “Lazarus Rising”. The first 3 seasons embodied, for me, the perfect series I’ve been waiting for for the last 50 years. I never tire of watching any of those episodes again and again. (even Bugs, Rte 666 and Red Sky). Loved, each and every one of them.
Not so, for season 4. Still an enjoyable season, but heart breaking in the schism with the brothers. I was so disappointed when in the very first episode, Sam lied to Dean’s face and kept Ruby and his powers a secret from him. I longed for them to be again on the same page, with the same loving and teasing companionship they had before Hell.
Heartbreaking to lose Ellen and Jo, but what an emotional episode for all involved. “And then There were None” disappointed me greatly as all of my boys (including Bobby) killed characters not deserving of it, and showed not a smidge of regret! Even though they were not themselves at the time, I would have expected SOME emotional regret. Dean killed his cousin Gwen and it didn’t seem to bother him. Bobby killed his long time partner and friend and then seemed to forget about it. Sam killed his grandfather who was possessed, but demanded that no one hurt Dean when Dean was possessed.???? To this day in my rewatches I have to skip that one if I’m in a depressed mood.
Killing Bobby was not needed. Not for dramatic effect or for the story line. That was Sera Gamble’s biggest blunder ever, and she had written some great episodes before. It was NOT necessary!!
I have not seen myself the so-called sexual, racial, John bashing or gay-bashing that others see. I’ve seen none of that.
I am tired of the crappy angels and their crappy wars. I would like for Dean and Sam to have a little control of their lives. I would wish for Sam to be himself and healthy for once in the last 6 seasons.
I would wish Sam could be looking out for Dean for a change and perhaps save his brother for once.
I would wish for them not to be pulled hither and yon by outside forces they can’t control.
I was loving season 9 right up to the end of “Holy Terror” when Kevin was killed merely for shock value.The guilt for Dean is an unbearable hurt for me. Why he isn’t going to eat his gun is the question the writers will have to answer. I’m hoping Cas can bring Kevin back, but don’t believe they will go that way. 🙁
Even with my complaints, no matter what hell the writers put my boys through, I will stick with them and never desert this amazing show!
Great discussion going here everyone! I’m really enjoying these responses. They are so varied, and every one of them has a valid point.
Ginger – Why do you have to keep logging in? Because our server sucks. This site ever since the season premiere is being run on what I call it’s own “angelic pacemaker.” We’ve had to run some creative caching to keep the site running during crashes (which is often). The login functions are super flaky right now. We will be switching servers again soon and I’ll go back to trying to fix the login stuff. So bear with me for now! I feel the same pain.
As for anyone concerned that I would give up on Supernatural or this website, never. I will admit, someday this site will be merged with TV For The Rest of Us, but that won’t change much of what you see here. Only the front page would change (and maybe a new template).
My dissatisfaction with Supernatural season nine has a lot to do with the fact it’s following the same pattern as season seven. Very strong start, and then it fizzled with weak characterization and story telling that just doesn’t gel from one week to the next. However, I do like the angels and demons, it’s just that their arcs aren’t very well done at all. I realize it’s season nine and the show should be on auto pilot by now but geez! Considering I’m reviewing a lot of other shows at TV For The Rest of Us that are on fire, Supernatural is disappointing me with the autopilot mentality.
This fandom is exhausting me too. Most of you here have been wonderful, but the fans are getting too splintered and I get a lot of crap on all sides because we aren’t something people think we should be. Which is kind of like being a writer on the show, no? I’m trying to chill and do my own thing. Which is exactly what the writers should be doing.
Except, the writers should be open to some feedback. Of course they can’t take on all the suggestions and should stay true to their vision, but fan comments can help with tweaks as the season moves along. Think about it, we got the brotherly bonding back because they listened to us. That helps. Maybe they’ll focus a bit more on plotting as well. I’m sure they know they are on borrowed time too. After season 10 (yes there will be a 10) everything become questionable. I’m not saying it will be the end, but it goes year to year after that.
Great discussion going here everyone! I’m really enjoying these responses. They are so varied, and every one of them has a valid point.
Ginger – Why do you have to keep logging in? Because our server sucks. This site ever since the season premiere is being run on what I call it’s own “angelic pacemaker.” We’ve had to run some creative caching to keep the site running during crashes (which is often). The login functions are super flaky right now. We will be switching servers again soon and I’ll go back to trying to fix the login stuff. So bear with me for now! I feel the same pain.
As for anyone concerned that I would give up on Supernatural or this website, never. I will admit, someday this site will be merged with TV For The Rest of Us, but that won’t change much of what you see here. Only the front page would change (and maybe a new template).
My dissatisfaction with Supernatural season nine has a lot to do with the fact it’s following the same pattern as season seven. Very strong start, and then it fizzled with weak characterization and story telling that just doesn’t gel from one week to the next. However, I do like the angels and demons, it’s just that their arcs aren’t very well done at all. I realize it’s season nine and the show should be on auto pilot by now but geez! Considering I’m reviewing a lot of other shows at TV For The Rest of Us that are on fire, Supernatural is disappointing me with the autopilot mentality.
This fandom is exhausting me too. Most of you here have been wonderful, but the fans are getting too splintered and I get a lot of crap on all sides because we aren’t something people think we should be. Which is kind of like being a writer on the show, no? I’m trying to chill and do my own thing. Which is exactly what the writers should be doing.
Except, the writers should be open to some feedback. Of course they can’t take on all the suggestions and should stay true to their vision, but fan comments can help with tweaks as the season moves along. Think about it, we got the brotherly bonding back because they listened to us. That helps. Maybe they’ll focus a bit more on plotting as well. I’m sure they know they are on borrowed time too. After season 10 (yes there will be a 10) everything become questionable. I’m not saying it will be the end, but it goes year to year after that.
I’m a relative newbie to the show. While having saw an episode here and there, I got hooked while home sick watching a TNT Supernatural Halloween marathon in October 2012. While the marathon did bounce around from season to season, they did run some episodes in order, part of the one of the earlier season arcs, and that’s what got me hooked. I then started playing catchup – watching the reruns on TNT, while watching new S8 episodes, and also catching up on early season episodes on Amazon streaming. My head was spinning keeping track of 3 storylines at a time.
Other than Season 7, there really hasn’t been a season I didn’t enjoy. And even that had some very great standalone episodes, it was just really depressing, somewhat disjointed, and the Leviathans weren’t that interesting.
Overall, I’ve been happy with Season 9. As no season is perfect, my complaints would be with the pacing of the main story arc. Most of the MOTW/standalone episodes have been good but I wish they’d get on with it already, or intersperse the MOTW/Arc episodes a little better. The other issue is something Ripley2Win mentioned – “something is wrong with Sam again”; was hoping we’d get to see the real Sam Winchester this season but, that being said, happy with the way the Sam/Zeke/Gadreel angelic possession and the twists/turns are playing out.
This is the only SPN discussion site I participate in; did run across some others but they get nasty and mean spirited, so I avoid them. Yes, there are complaints from Sam fans, Dean fans, and the “Canon-istas” but, for the most part everyone is civil here and I enjoy reading the reviews and comments.
I’m a relative newbie to the show. While having saw an episode here and there, I got hooked while home sick watching a TNT Supernatural Halloween marathon in October 2012. While the marathon did bounce around from season to season, they did run some episodes in order, part of the one of the earlier season arcs, and that’s what got me hooked. I then started playing catchup – watching the reruns on TNT, while watching new S8 episodes, and also catching up on early season episodes on Amazon streaming. My head was spinning keeping track of 3 storylines at a time.
Other than Season 7, there really hasn’t been a season I didn’t enjoy. And even that had some very great standalone episodes, it was just really depressing, somewhat disjointed, and the Leviathans weren’t that interesting.
Overall, I’ve been happy with Season 9. As no season is perfect, my complaints would be with the pacing of the main story arc. Most of the MOTW/standalone episodes have been good but I wish they’d get on with it already, or intersperse the MOTW/Arc episodes a little better. The other issue is something Ripley2Win mentioned – “something is wrong with Sam again”; was hoping we’d get to see the real Sam Winchester this season but, that being said, happy with the way the Sam/Zeke/Gadreel angelic possession and the twists/turns are playing out.
This is the only SPN discussion site I participate in; did run across some others but they get nasty and mean spirited, so I avoid them. Yes, there are complaints from Sam fans, Dean fans, and the “Canon-istas” but, for the most part everyone is civil here and I enjoy reading the reviews and comments.
#29 mary9930 & #30 cheryl42
I appreciate that. Your comments were fine, it was just something that I felt I wanted to say.
Having had my say, I think I’ll go back to promoting some wine drinking. We did that.. what was it last year? year before? when a bunch of us here were having issues with the show…. Ended up being quite a party!
Always better to relax, have a nice glass of wine, admire the pretty ( 😳 ) and enjoy the company of people with a common interest than to fight about it all!
I’m uncorking the bottle now… anyone interested in a glass with me?? 8)
#29 mary9930 & #30 cheryl42
I appreciate that. Your comments were fine, it was just something that I felt I wanted to say.
Having had my say, I think I’ll go back to promoting some wine drinking. We did that.. what was it last year? year before? when a bunch of us here were having issues with the show…. Ended up being quite a party!
Always better to relax, have a nice glass of wine, admire the pretty ( 😳 ) and enjoy the company of people with a common interest than to fight about it all!
I’m uncorking the bottle now… anyone interested in a glass with me?? 8)
[quote name=”st50″]#29 mary9930 & #30 cheryl42
I appreciate that. Your comments were fine, it was just something that I felt I wanted to say.
Having had my say, I think I’ll go back to promoting some wine drinking. We did that.. what was it last year? year before? when a bunch of us here were having issues with the show…. Ended up being quite a party!
Always better to relax, have a nice glass of wine, admire the pretty ( 😳 ) and enjoy the company of people with a common interest than to fight about it all!
I’m uncorking the bottle now… anyone interested in a glass with me?? 8)[/quote]
Me! Me, I will 😛 I think it would help! I had 2 goes at posting a comment about the show today and they both got lost into the void (not a site problem, they just seemed jinxed) So … for me, season 9 so far is waaayyy better than season 8 (apart from a couple of episodes that fell flat) and is showing signs of maybe being up there with the very excellent Season 6 8) I am willing to wait and see what happens …
[quote]#29 mary9930 & #30 cheryl42
I appreciate that. Your comments were fine, it was just something that I felt I wanted to say.
Having had my say, I think I’ll go back to promoting some wine drinking. We did that.. what was it last year? year before? when a bunch of us here were having issues with the show…. Ended up being quite a party!
Always better to relax, have a nice glass of wine, admire the pretty ( 😳 ) and enjoy the company of people with a common interest than to fight about it all!
I’m uncorking the bottle now… anyone interested in a glass with me?? 8)[/quote]
Me! Me, I will 😛 I think it would help! I had 2 goes at posting a comment about the show today and they both got lost into the void (not a site problem, they just seemed jinxed) So … for me, season 9 so far is waaayyy better than season 8 (apart from a couple of episodes that fell flat) and is showing signs of maybe being up there with the very excellent Season 6 8) I am willing to wait and see what happens …
I’m a very new Supernatural fan. I only just started watching this past summer, July 2013 in a mad marathon of epic proportion via Netflix. I was hooked by episode 3, Season 1. Holy crackers! Lock, stock and barrel.
My kids warned me not to get too into the fandom, the tumbler, the fanfic, the shipping, but honestly, I love it, even when some of it makes me go ‘what?’. I adore the passion from everyone, whether you agree with my view of the show or not. We all have various and different opinions, but the important thing is to share those feels without attacking one another. That disturbs me more than any difficulty I may have with the show. I’ve found such a wonderful sense of family and belonging here that I would hate to see that torn apart by relatively small and niggling differences of opinion.
As for the show, I’m still in a state of shock over how much I enjoy it, how emotional I get about it and over how incredibly amazing Jared and Jensen are. It’s really because of them and their passion for what they do that stops me from worrying too much about how the show is going to turn out. I trust them. I trust their judgement. They aren’t just a pair of pretty boy actors here. They are invested in it as much as we are, if not more. They’ve stated numerous times, publicly, how protective of these characters they are. I feel the show is completely safe from going too far off the rails in their hands.
And I don’t think that it has. I don’t see Season 9 as having some of the issues that others have. The rape issue came as a shock to me, but I respect those who saw it that way. I didn’t like Cas’ first time all that much, not because of any possession issues, but because his first time turned out to be with one of the enemy! I’ve asked myself a couple of times why they couldn’t have had her possessed by the reaper after the fact, the morning after (however reaper possession works), which would have made a much more poignant, bittersweet moment for Cas. But you know, we all can’t get what we want, so I live with those moments that I don’t feel are quite right for the ones that are over the top perfection.
I’m so looking forward to digging into the rest of the Season, watching it with family and fellow SPNfamily and live tweeting with Jared. What fun! I’m looking forward to Sam being back as Sam, because right along with Dean, I miss him immensely. I hope Sam understands, somehow, why Dean did all that he did and I hope Dean finds himself again, because man, he is lost and it is killing me.
I know this show is going to rip my heart out, and stomp all over it, before putting it all back together again. What an incredible ride it is.
Hopefully, we can all enjoy it, with all it’s faults and moments of perfection, with just as much passion, while being careful of one another’s feelings. Hugs to us all.
Passing the flask…
I’m a very new Supernatural fan. I only just started watching this past summer, July 2013 in a mad marathon of epic proportion via Netflix. I was hooked by episode 3, Season 1. Holy crackers! Lock, stock and barrel.
My kids warned me not to get too into the fandom, the tumbler, the fanfic, the shipping, but honestly, I love it, even when some of it makes me go ‘what?’. I adore the passion from everyone, whether you agree with my view of the show or not. We all have various and different opinions, but the important thing is to share those feels without attacking one another. That disturbs me more than any difficulty I may have with the show. I’ve found such a wonderful sense of family and belonging here that I would hate to see that torn apart by relatively small and niggling differences of opinion.
As for the show, I’m still in a state of shock over how much I enjoy it, how emotional I get about it and over how incredibly amazing Jared and Jensen are. It’s really because of them and their passion for what they do that stops me from worrying too much about how the show is going to turn out. I trust them. I trust their judgement. They aren’t just a pair of pretty boy actors here. They are invested in it as much as we are, if not more. They’ve stated numerous times, publicly, how protective of these characters they are. I feel the show is completely safe from going too far off the rails in their hands.
And I don’t think that it has. I don’t see Season 9 as having some of the issues that others have. The rape issue came as a shock to me, but I respect those who saw it that way. I didn’t like Cas’ first time all that much, not because of any possession issues, but because his first time turned out to be with one of the enemy! I’ve asked myself a couple of times why they couldn’t have had her possessed by the reaper after the fact, the morning after (however reaper possession works), which would have made a much more poignant, bittersweet moment for Cas. But you know, we all can’t get what we want, so I live with those moments that I don’t feel are quite right for the ones that are over the top perfection.
I’m so looking forward to digging into the rest of the Season, watching it with family and fellow SPNfamily and live tweeting with Jared. What fun! I’m looking forward to Sam being back as Sam, because right along with Dean, I miss him immensely. I hope Sam understands, somehow, why Dean did all that he did and I hope Dean finds himself again, because man, he is lost and it is killing me.
I know this show is going to rip my heart out, and stomp all over it, before putting it all back together again. What an incredible ride it is.
Hopefully, we can all enjoy it, with all it’s faults and moments of perfection, with just as much passion, while being careful of one another’s feelings. Hugs to us all.
Passing the flask…
[quote name=”DeanColt45″]
As for the show, I’m still in a state of shock over how much I enjoy it, how emotional I get about it and over how incredibly amazing Jared and Jensen are. It’s really because of them and their passion for what they do that stops me from worrying too much about how the show is going to turn out. I trust them. I trust their judgement. They aren’t just a pair of pretty boy actors here. They are invested in it as much as we are, if not more. They’ve stated numerous times, publicly, how protective of these characters they are. I feel the show is completely safe from going too far off the rails in their hands.
.[/quote]
My second attempt at a comment (that went on a hunting trip and hasn’t been home in a few days) was exactly this! I agree with you completely 🙂 As long as the guys are invested there is reasonable evidence that things are good. Jared and Jensen as miner’s canaries…
[quote]
As for the show, I’m still in a state of shock over how much I enjoy it, how emotional I get about it and over how incredibly amazing Jared and Jensen are. It’s really because of them and their passion for what they do that stops me from worrying too much about how the show is going to turn out. I trust them. I trust their judgement. They aren’t just a pair of pretty boy actors here. They are invested in it as much as we are, if not more. They’ve stated numerous times, publicly, how protective of these characters they are. I feel the show is completely safe from going too far off the rails in their hands.
.[/quote]
My second attempt at a comment (that went on a hunting trip and hasn’t been home in a few days) was exactly this! I agree with you completely 🙂 As long as the guys are invested there is reasonable evidence that things are good. Jared and Jensen as miner’s canaries…
I can’t seem to get back to the first page of posts, so I hope I’m not retreading territory here…
I came to Supernatural late, started watching while S6 was airing. For some time, Netflix kept showing it as something I might like, but I stayed away because the description made it sound like it was a show about a couple of hot guys killing things, plus so many things on the CW are mostly about the pretty…didn’t really sound like my cup of tea. But Netflix was persistent and eventually I caved, if nothing else I could say I gave it a try and then Netflix could leave me be. So, I got the first season one disk at a time.
The first season didn’t grab me and make me devoted, but it had some interesting themes, the mullet rock touched my inner music geek and there were these two guys that “brought it” in every episode. Mostly, I thought season one was a bunch of fairly overdone B horror movie cliches, but something struck a cord with me, so I kept watching.
After I finished season one, I wasn’t sure I wanted to continue, then “In My Time Of Dying” came along. I couldn’t stop now, just when things were getting good. Season two was the clincher for me, I realized after “What Is And What Should Never Be” I was in it. Supernatural went to the top of my Netflix queue. It took me a couple of months, but I finally got caught up and started watching season seven in real time.
I liked all the seasons, for the most part–yes that includes season seven. There are always a couple of episodes I try to forget, but mostly I was satisfied, that is until season eight. It seemed the show didn’t know what it wanted to be anymore–characters, cannon and story lines were all over the place–I just didn’t know what to make of it. Somewhere midway through last season I thought I was going to have to give it up, but I just couldn’t seem to. I’ve never had this problem before, when a show disappoints me I just move on. Supernatural had some kind of crazy hold on me.
Season nine, for me, hasn’t really inspired me. There have been a few things I liked and a lot of things I didn’t and I would say there’s only been one episode that I liked start to finish (not that it didn’t have a few problems), the rest are just there. But I still keep watching–I finally realized I was in it til the end–no matter what they choose to do on the show, I will watch it.
I’ve begun to think that some of the problems with the show seem to be that TPTB are trying so hard to please everyone that the story seems to get fractured and has lost focus. I love that this show is so accessible to its audience–it makes us feel like we all a part of it–but I also think it is what is pulling the show down.
So, this is my very long way of saying, I guess I don’t really wish I had TPTB ears. I don’t really want to see everything I say I like every week–that would be boring–I’d rather be surprised with something I have never thought of before. However, I do wish they would do better. So much of Supernatural feels only on the surface lately and I used to think it dug deeper and sometimes was so very witty.
Basically, I have no suggestions or answers, I just want to enjoy the show again. Wow, seems like I didn’t need all those words to get here.
I can’t seem to get back to the first page of posts, so I hope I’m not retreading territory here…
I came to Supernatural late, started watching while S6 was airing. For some time, Netflix kept showing it as something I might like, but I stayed away because the description made it sound like it was a show about a couple of hot guys killing things, plus so many things on the CW are mostly about the pretty…didn’t really sound like my cup of tea. But Netflix was persistent and eventually I caved, if nothing else I could say I gave it a try and then Netflix could leave me be. So, I got the first season one disk at a time.
The first season didn’t grab me and make me devoted, but it had some interesting themes, the mullet rock touched my inner music geek and there were these two guys that “brought it” in every episode. Mostly, I thought season one was a bunch of fairly overdone B horror movie cliches, but something struck a cord with me, so I kept watching.
After I finished season one, I wasn’t sure I wanted to continue, then “In My Time Of Dying” came along. I couldn’t stop now, just when things were getting good. Season two was the clincher for me, I realized after “What Is And What Should Never Be” I was in it. Supernatural went to the top of my Netflix queue. It took me a couple of months, but I finally got caught up and started watching season seven in real time.
I liked all the seasons, for the most part–yes that includes season seven. There are always a couple of episodes I try to forget, but mostly I was satisfied, that is until season eight. It seemed the show didn’t know what it wanted to be anymore–characters, cannon and story lines were all over the place–I just didn’t know what to make of it. Somewhere midway through last season I thought I was going to have to give it up, but I just couldn’t seem to. I’ve never had this problem before, when a show disappoints me I just move on. Supernatural had some kind of crazy hold on me.
Season nine, for me, hasn’t really inspired me. There have been a few things I liked and a lot of things I didn’t and I would say there’s only been one episode that I liked start to finish (not that it didn’t have a few problems), the rest are just there. But I still keep watching–I finally realized I was in it til the end–no matter what they choose to do on the show, I will watch it.
I’ve begun to think that some of the problems with the show seem to be that TPTB are trying so hard to please everyone that the story seems to get fractured and has lost focus. I love that this show is so accessible to its audience–it makes us feel like we all a part of it–but I also think it is what is pulling the show down.
So, this is my very long way of saying, I guess I don’t really wish I had TPTB ears. I don’t really want to see everything I say I like every week–that would be boring–I’d rather be surprised with something I have never thought of before. However, I do wish they would do better. So much of Supernatural feels only on the surface lately and I used to think it dug deeper and sometimes was so very witty.
Basically, I have no suggestions or answers, I just want to enjoy the show again. Wow, seems like I didn’t need all those words to get here.
I had to stop reading the comments on the first page – as it’s way too much negativity FOR ME to cope with about a show that I’ve loved since day 1. Each to their own (I’m not criticizing anyone else for their thoughts) but I would like to inject some positive comments to this thread.
The title of this article asks a question that I can’t answer. The show is neither winning me over nor driving me away, because Supernatural grabbed hold of me in Season 1, episode 1, and has never let go. Some episodes have been pure brilliance, some have had a few problems. But I have always found things to enjoy about every single episode.
If I’m being super-critical and looking back at the seasons, I do think the show lost its way a bit during season 7 (and TPTB have admitted they wrote themselves into a corner with the leviathan arc). It did become quite bleak and it’s my least favourite season. But I still enjoyed it and it introduced a couple of characters that I love, especially Charlie.
Season 8 and season 9 have been much stronger under Jeremy Carver and I believe he has re-instilled some the feel of earlier seasons.
In regard to Jared & Jensen carrying the show – which was mentioned in one of the comments – and the desire to get back to just Sam & Dean (on the road, hunting monsters). I honestly don’t think it’s possible because the actors themselves require more time off than they did in the past.
My understanding was that, in these later years under Jeremy Carver, there was always the intention of re-populating the show with recurring characters to take the pressure off Jared & Jensen. I’ve said it many times before I’d rather have a little less Sam & Dean now, than to lose Supernatural completely.
So, I’m going to remain here in my Supernatural bubble of happiness – and continue to enjoy all the twists and turns that season 9 is providing me 😀
I had to stop reading the comments on the first page – as it’s way too much negativity FOR ME to cope with about a show that I’ve loved since day 1. Each to their own (I’m not criticizing anyone else for their thoughts) but I would like to inject some positive comments to this thread.
The title of this article asks a question that I can’t answer. The show is neither winning me over nor driving me away, because Supernatural grabbed hold of me in Season 1, episode 1, and has never let go. Some episodes have been pure brilliance, some have had a few problems. But I have always found things to enjoy about every single episode.
If I’m being super-critical and looking back at the seasons, I do think the show lost its way a bit during season 7 (and TPTB have admitted they wrote themselves into a corner with the leviathan arc). It did become quite bleak and it’s my least favourite season. But I still enjoyed it and it introduced a couple of characters that I love, especially Charlie.
Season 8 and season 9 have been much stronger under Jeremy Carver and I believe he has re-instilled some the feel of earlier seasons.
In regard to Jared & Jensen carrying the show – which was mentioned in one of the comments – and the desire to get back to just Sam & Dean (on the road, hunting monsters). I honestly don’t think it’s possible because the actors themselves require more time off than they did in the past.
My understanding was that, in these later years under Jeremy Carver, there was always the intention of re-populating the show with recurring characters to take the pressure off Jared & Jensen. I’ve said it many times before I’d rather have a little less Sam & Dean now, than to lose Supernatural completely.
So, I’m going to remain here in my Supernatural bubble of happiness – and continue to enjoy all the twists and turns that season 9 is providing me 😀
I’m with you, KG_SPN. I’m in a Supernatural bubble of happiness too.
I love Show. I have watched it from the Pilot. Since SPN moved to Thursdays in S1, I have never missed an original air date for an episode. (Early on, I used to watch the replays on Sundays instead of the original airing on Tuesdays)
Is it perfect? Of course not. Nothing is 100% perfect. But as far as I’m concerned, Supernatural is 97% perfect with a +/-2 margin of error. I’m happy because I choose to focus on the 95-99% rather than the 1-5%.
I haven’t liked everything. Hell, I’m still pissed that they killed John Winchester. I hated Bella. I’m still annoyed that Cas sucking the crazy out of Sam was the end of that Lucifer SL. I still think that the Old Navy Mannequins were creepier and scarier than the ones in THAT episode.
I used to enjoy discussing what I really like and what I don’t like as much about episodes. Not any more. Mostly because its nearly impossible to do it. Its very hard to find any kind of discussion that doesn’t become shrill with people grinding an axe about a character, a story-line, a social cause.
I just like watching my show. Half the stuff that people complain about online — I don’t even get it. I just don’t see it.
I’ve enjoyed every season of Supernatural. I will continue to enjoy this and every season that we get to spend with the Winchester boys.
I’m with you, KG_SPN. I’m in a Supernatural bubble of happiness too.
I love Show. I have watched it from the Pilot. Since SPN moved to Thursdays in S1, I have never missed an original air date for an episode. (Early on, I used to watch the replays on Sundays instead of the original airing on Tuesdays)
Is it perfect? Of course not. Nothing is 100% perfect. But as far as I’m concerned, Supernatural is 97% perfect with a +/-2 margin of error. I’m happy because I choose to focus on the 95-99% rather than the 1-5%.
I haven’t liked everything. Hell, I’m still pissed that they killed John Winchester. I hated Bella. I’m still annoyed that Cas sucking the crazy out of Sam was the end of that Lucifer SL. I still think that the Old Navy Mannequins were creepier and scarier than the ones in THAT episode.
I used to enjoy discussing what I really like and what I don’t like as much about episodes. Not any more. Mostly because its nearly impossible to do it. Its very hard to find any kind of discussion that doesn’t become shrill with people grinding an axe about a character, a story-line, a social cause.
I just like watching my show. Half the stuff that people complain about online — I don’t even get it. I just don’t see it.
I’ve enjoyed every season of Supernatural. I will continue to enjoy this and every season that we get to spend with the Winchester boys.
[quote name=”Melanie”]I’ve enjoyed every season of Supernatural. I will continue to enjoy this and every season that we get to spend with the Winchester boys.[/quote]
Exactly. I’m also acutely aware that we are in the twilight of Supernatural’s years. All too soon this wonderful show will come to its conclusion, Jared and Jensen will move on to new projects, and we’ll be left with the only story we have (whether we like it or not).
So I plan to make the most of every single (probably tumultuous) minute that we have left with ‘our boys’. 😥
[quote]I’ve enjoyed every season of Supernatural. I will continue to enjoy this and every season that we get to spend with the Winchester boys.[/quote]
Exactly. I’m also acutely aware that we are in the twilight of Supernatural’s years. All too soon this wonderful show will come to its conclusion, Jared and Jensen will move on to new projects, and we’ll be left with the only story we have (whether we like it or not).
So I plan to make the most of every single (probably tumultuous) minute that we have left with ‘our boys’. 😥
SPN is the same as it’s always been for me, fun/entertaining television. Is it perfect, no, you could probably go through every season (yes, even the Kripke ones) and one or a few things could have been done better.
I’ve had no problems following the story lines, or with characterization (yes I’m one of the few who thought Sam no looking for Dean made sense), the show is as good as it has always been,
SPN is the same as it’s always been for me, fun/entertaining television. Is it perfect, no, you could probably go through every season (yes, even the Kripke ones) and one or a few things could have been done better.
I’ve had no problems following the story lines, or with characterization (yes I’m one of the few who thought Sam no looking for Dean made sense), the show is as good as it has always been,
I think Ripley2Win is on the money, echoing well my own feelings re: SPN, not just this season but in general. I’ve had roller coaster affair with SPN and not just since Cas came along and stole my heart. Season 3 already saw my enthusiasm waning but as a fan from the get go I hung in there and was kinda born again with Lazarus Rising.
Some longer held general concerns feel more acute this far on in the show. Now my issue is not just that Cas is too sparingly afforded quality, progressive screentime – because I can make that complaint for San & Dean also. In fact I’d say of the three, Cas has in fact been given most development from his original conception. Although I’d argue not always favourably or to best effect. Sam & Dean suffer in their own way. Season after season of ample opportunity for promising character growth within that unique brotherly bond, yet effectively locked into their static, growing ever staler, even crippling codependency.
Potentially enriching storylines with a host of support characters are perpetually doomed and chopped off at the ankles. Cas has survived by virtue of having developing planetary classification character mass and a popular gravity of his own. But even when he is onscreen, it’s rarely shared effectively with Sam and/or Dean, often still reduced to providing light relief. I’d hoped with Misha a S9 regular and a much anticipated human!Cas storyline, it would be opportunity to delineate a more emotionally nuanced drama for him. So for me that made the hasty, shallow sexual focus and dub-con elements to it not only distasteful but bitterly disappointing. Sex regardless of it’s context, treated in an off hand, humorous manner. Ergo consent, torture and death casually brushed aside. The same reason I found the chastity!lolz escapade in 9×08 so off colour. Not merely because Dean had a casual encounter, but the manner in which it was couched and it’s execution. It felt horribly OOC and way off pace for S9 Dean. Sam, Dean and Cas have all suffered on this score. Besides the character discordance, the heavily jocular tone of the season (so far) effectively robs these situations of any gravitas, consequence or impact. It’s hard to connect with an emotionally wrought, high drama torture and death scene one moment, only to shrug it all off with dudebro sex!lolz the next. Any wonder on this show death or the threat of it struggles to raise the dramatic stakes..much.
I’m speaking as a long in the tooth fan from S1, who started watching for Sam & Dean and stayed for Cas. But it would make no difference if I were a newly minted fan from Tumblr, who discovered SPN for love of Team Free Will and Dean/Cas. Polite, matter of fact critique of Show running/writing is not partisan nor does it equate hate, quite the contrary. Of course people will have preferences and are free to not care for certain story lines/characters, even Sam or Dean, and they are still a ‘true fan’. But disingenuously dismissing wider concerns that go beyond fandom factions as ‘crazy hateful shippers’. Straw man arguments that continually spin Cas (fans) as the perpetual, problematic bad guy. Insisting for the nth time that SPN needs to go back to being just about the bros and all will be well. As if if there hasn’t always been heated Sam vs Dean arguments in this fandom, even before Dad appeared or Cas raised his halo and a hunter. Or that S1-3 didn’t have wobbly writing or bum episodes. This becomes less about individual perspective or preference and more problematical fan erasure.
I don’t think it’s any coincidence that I’ve seen an increasing number of fans shifting away from SPN in the space of only half a season. There are fans like myself, who hang on in there for love of the characters and actors. But it’s that long standing affection and investment that means we care enough for the product to speak our minds about quality control.
I think Ripley2Win is on the money, echoing well my own feelings re: SPN, not just this season but in general. I’ve had roller coaster affair with SPN and not just since Cas came along and stole my heart. Season 3 already saw my enthusiasm waning but as a fan from the get go I hung in there and was kinda born again with Lazarus Rising.
Some longer held general concerns feel more acute this far on in the show. Now my issue is not just that Cas is too sparingly afforded quality, progressive screentime – because I can make that complaint for San & Dean also. In fact I’d say of the three, Cas has in fact been given most development from his original conception. Although I’d argue not always favourably or to best effect. Sam & Dean suffer in their own way. Season after season of ample opportunity for promising character growth within that unique brotherly bond, yet effectively locked into their static, growing ever staler, even crippling codependency.
Potentially enriching storylines with a host of support characters are perpetually doomed and chopped off at the ankles. Cas has survived by virtue of having developing planetary classification character mass and a popular gravity of his own. But even when he is onscreen, it’s rarely shared effectively with Sam and/or Dean, often still reduced to providing light relief. I’d hoped with Misha a S9 regular and a much anticipated human!Cas storyline, it would be opportunity to delineate a more emotionally nuanced drama for him. So for me that made the hasty, shallow sexual focus and dub-con elements to it not only distasteful but bitterly disappointing. Sex regardless of it’s context, treated in an off hand, humorous manner. Ergo consent, torture and death casually brushed aside. The same reason I found the chastity!lolz escapade in 9×08 so off colour. Not merely because Dean had a casual encounter, but the manner in which it was couched and it’s execution. It felt horribly OOC and way off pace for S9 Dean. Sam, Dean and Cas have all suffered on this score. Besides the character discordance, the heavily jocular tone of the season (so far) effectively robs these situations of any gravitas, consequence or impact. It’s hard to connect with an emotionally wrought, high drama torture and death scene one moment, only to shrug it all off with dudebro sex!lolz the next. Any wonder on this show death or the threat of it struggles to raise the dramatic stakes..much.
I’m speaking as a long in the tooth fan from S1, who started watching for Sam & Dean and stayed for Cas. But it would make no difference if I were a newly minted fan from Tumblr, who discovered SPN for love of Team Free Will and Dean/Cas. Polite, matter of fact critique of Show running/writing is not partisan nor does it equate hate, quite the contrary. Of course people will have preferences and are free to not care for certain story lines/characters, even Sam or Dean, and they are still a ‘true fan’. But disingenuously dismissing wider concerns that go beyond fandom factions as ‘crazy hateful shippers’. Straw man arguments that continually spin Cas (fans) as the perpetual, problematic bad guy. Insisting for the nth time that SPN needs to go back to being just about the bros and all will be well. As if if there hasn’t always been heated Sam vs Dean arguments in this fandom, even before Dad appeared or Cas raised his halo and a hunter. Or that S1-3 didn’t have wobbly writing or bum episodes. This becomes less about individual perspective or preference and more problematical fan erasure.
I don’t think it’s any coincidence that I’ve seen an increasing number of fans shifting away from SPN in the space of only half a season. There are fans like myself, who hang on in there for love of the characters and actors. But it’s that long standing affection and investment that means we care enough for the product to speak our minds about quality control.
According to me season 9 is going really well. The balance between the brother’s storyline and the angel storyline is being chalked out really well. Though the focus remains still on the brothers and growing tension between them with the angels screwing them but the writers are also weaving the angel storyline in the best way possible. What remains a point of concern for me are certain inconsistencies in the storyline that affects the mytharc formed over the years and there are only two writers responsible for that (*cough* Eugenie Ross Leming and Brad Buckner *cough* ) who have the habit of messing up with myth. But other than that I am excited for this season and can’t wait for 14th January. 😀 😆 😉
According to me season 9 is going really well. The balance between the brother’s storyline and the angel storyline is being chalked out really well. Though the focus remains still on the brothers and growing tension between them with the angels screwing them but the writers are also weaving the angel storyline in the best way possible. What remains a point of concern for me are certain inconsistencies in the storyline that affects the mytharc formed over the years and there are only two writers responsible for that (*cough* Eugenie Ross Leming and Brad Buckner *cough* ) who have the habit of messing up with myth. But other than that I am excited for this season and can’t wait for 14th January. 😀 😆 😉
If we actually get Sam back and Jeremy decides who Sam is and starts focusing on that Sam . Then I will know wether season 9 is just like other seasons and even more Sam disappears or it elevates itself above that and starts restoring Sam to the person he has a right to be.
And a pov to match.
If we actually get Sam back and Jeremy decides who Sam is and starts focusing on that Sam . Then I will know wether season 9 is just like other seasons and even more Sam disappears or it elevates itself above that and starts restoring Sam to the person he has a right to be.
And a pov to match.
[quote name=”saumya”]According to me season 9 is going really well. The balance between the brother’s storyline and the angel storyline is being chalked out really well. Though the focus remains still on the brothers and growing tension between them with the angels screwing them but the writers are also weaving the angel storyline in the best way possible. What remains a point of concern for me are certain inconsistencies in the storyline that affects the mytharc formed over the years and there are only two writers responsible for that (*cough* Eugenie Ross Leming and Brad Buckner *cough* ) who have the habit of messing up with myth. But other than that I am excited for this season and can’t wait for 14th January. 😀 😆 ;-)[/quote]
Whether people like it or not, the show has had a seasonal structure from season 4 on. First three or four set the mythology of the season and then they do bunch of stand alones, and then and back and forth. Season 9 is nothing new, so I’m not fully getting the complaints.
[quote]According to me season 9 is going really well. The balance between the brother’s storyline and the angel storyline is being chalked out really well. Though the focus remains still on the brothers and growing tension between them with the angels screwing them but the writers are also weaving the angel storyline in the best way possible. What remains a point of concern for me are certain inconsistencies in the storyline that affects the mytharc formed over the years and there are only two writers responsible for that (*cough* Eugenie Ross Leming and Brad Buckner *cough* ) who have the habit of messing up with myth. But other than that I am excited for this season and can’t wait for 14th January. 😀 😆 ;-)[/quote]
Whether people like it or not, the show has had a seasonal structure from season 4 on. First three or four set the mythology of the season and then they do bunch of stand alones, and then and back and forth. Season 9 is nothing new, so I’m not fully getting the complaints.
I have watched SPN since season one. However, I never watched entirely for the bros, only (I loved other aspects of the show and other characters), and I truly love Cas. In fact, I love Dean, Sam, AND Cas; team free will. What truly disturbs me about season nine is how out-of-character, characters, are being written. Plus, the sometimes disregarding of canon and history (errors in the writing). Dean has been basically reduced to a plot device, this season, to carry the Sam story; being portrayed as a liar, sleeze bag, and partly responsible (through his trick in getting Sam possessed) for the death of Kevin. The human Cas story line, which could have been fascinating, was reduced by the writers to Cas being basically treated like a teenager chasing after women, bragging about it in a bar, and seemingly being unable to do anything right in the area of hunting (even THOUGH Cas, human or not, was once a WARRIOR of God; a SOLDIER and had millions of years of knowledge). I am relieved that Cas is once again an angel, since hopefully that will allow the character to regain his dignity. Is season nine “winning me over”? No. Is season nine “driving me away”? No. Right now I am caught in the middle. I have been disturbed by the problems I mentioned above, but I am still holding out hope that the series’s writers will unite in the second half of the season and we’ll see more continuity in the story lines and characters acting more, in character. That we’ll see Gadreel OUT of Sam and we’ll be back to some good Team Free Will action, again.
I have watched SPN since season one. However, I never watched entirely for the bros, only (I loved other aspects of the show and other characters), and I truly love Cas. In fact, I love Dean, Sam, AND Cas; team free will. What truly disturbs me about season nine is how out-of-character, characters, are being written. Plus, the sometimes disregarding of canon and history (errors in the writing). Dean has been basically reduced to a plot device, this season, to carry the Sam story; being portrayed as a liar, sleeze bag, and partly responsible (through his trick in getting Sam possessed) for the death of Kevin. The human Cas story line, which could have been fascinating, was reduced by the writers to Cas being basically treated like a teenager chasing after women, bragging about it in a bar, and seemingly being unable to do anything right in the area of hunting (even THOUGH Cas, human or not, was once a WARRIOR of God; a SOLDIER and had millions of years of knowledge). I am relieved that Cas is once again an angel, since hopefully that will allow the character to regain his dignity. Is season nine “winning me over”? No. Is season nine “driving me away”? No. Right now I am caught in the middle. I have been disturbed by the problems I mentioned above, but I am still holding out hope that the series’s writers will unite in the second half of the season and we’ll see more continuity in the story lines and characters acting more, in character. That we’ll see Gadreel OUT of Sam and we’ll be back to some good Team Free Will action, again.
Team Free Will that was ok in season 5 but there is not a TFW now and in truth there never really has been and when one has not even got agency over his life it is a weird title to still give the 3 of them.
I would not put Dean down as a plot device and certainly not this year , he is the one driving everything that is happening and will get serious focus from the fallout from [b]Holy Terror[/b] while Sam is somewhere or if it is Sam ? .
Team Free Will that was ok in season 5 but there is not a TFW now and in truth there never really has been and when one has not even got agency over his life it is a weird title to still give the 3 of them.
I would not put Dean down as a plot device and certainly not this year , he is the one driving everything that is happening and will get serious focus from the fallout from [b]Holy Terror[/b] while Sam is somewhere or if it is Sam ? .
All in all, I am in a team of happy fans. Season 9 hasn’t disappointed me at all. The best ep IMO is I’m gonna like it here. It was like an overture giving the note to the whole thing, and so beautifully composed! The theme of “inevitable” sounded strongly, and then we could watch and witness the roads Sam and Dean going on and on in opposite directions, heading each to his own inevitable choice. Carver is a brilliant writer!
But I still share some of the issues people have with the season. Don’t know if I can generalize and classify these problems here, somebody has to:-)
1. Bad boys – too many of them, and neither is really convincing. Still miss Naomi, she at least had method ( didn’t work though) and tools. Don’t want to see the brothers being their worst problem like in the first half of S8. I think we need a new big bad with power and a clever plan. Let him kidnap Dean and Sam be the one who would take his brother by the scruff of his neck and drag him out of trouble for a change.
2. Women – always first nice, then horrible,”Aha, you didn’t expect, and now I’m gonna bite you!” I’d like to see some normal women like Elly from Trial and Error, or that Elisabeth, Benny’s great-grand something. The actress was given a few scenes to play and managed to show the true to life character and geniune emotion. Give me one of these good, working girls, let them interact with the heroes, and don’t kill them please!
3 – canon. When I first came here I was astonished to see how much importance people give to canon in a fantastic show. Canon of a TV show – sounded to me as funny as, for example, “a divine art of cookery”. As the time passed I learnt to understand that being guardians of logic and consistency is really a noble trade. Only the most trusted are entitled to keep the gates of the sacred garden from a creeping evil. I’m afraid, though, that the task is impossible as it was for one failure of an angel.
4 – mythology. For me, this is a matter of major importance, and I wish somebody in the writing room devoted some time to it and sorted it out at last. Respecting both Gamble and Carter as remarkably talented writers I can’t help but see that neither of them is not interested in this aspect of the show. But it is where huge possibilities lie! OK, this is a theme for another thread…
5 – cliches. I heard that when they were shooting a fight in one future episode it took nine hours. Can’t wait to see the scene – at last something diffrent than jumping and knocking against the wall. There have been too many such things lately, and I beg those in charge – beware of banalities and repetitions. Allow the boys to do something new, allow/them to be active – fight and climb, ride a horse or a bike, swim, whatever! Without detriment to the drama, of course.
The number of viewers is rising this season, so is the volume of bitter criticism. Is there a relation here?:-)
show.
All in all, I am in a team of happy fans. Season 9 hasn’t disappointed me at all. The best ep IMO is I’m gonna like it here. It was like an overture giving the note to the whole thing, and so beautifully composed! The theme of “inevitable” sounded strongly, and then we could watch and witness the roads Sam and Dean going on and on in opposite directions, heading each to his own inevitable choice. Carver is a brilliant writer!
But I still share some of the issues people have with the season. Don’t know if I can generalize and classify these problems here, somebody has to:-)
1. Bad boys – too many of them, and neither is really convincing. Still miss Naomi, she at least had method ( didn’t work though) and tools. Don’t want to see the brothers being their worst problem like in the first half of S8. I think we need a new big bad with power and a clever plan. Let him kidnap Dean and Sam be the one who would take his brother by the scruff of his neck and drag him out of trouble for a change.
2. Women – always first nice, then horrible,”Aha, you didn’t expect, and now I’m gonna bite you!” I’d like to see some normal women like Elly from Trial and Error, or that Elisabeth, Benny’s great-grand something. The actress was given a few scenes to play and managed to show the true to life character and geniune emotion. Give me one of these good, working girls, let them interact with the heroes, and don’t kill them please!
3 – canon. When I first came here I was astonished to see how much importance people give to canon in a fantastic show. Canon of a TV show – sounded to me as funny as, for example, “a divine art of cookery”. As the time passed I learnt to understand that being guardians of logic and consistency is really a noble trade. Only the most trusted are entitled to keep the gates of the sacred garden from a creeping evil. I’m afraid, though, that the task is impossible as it was for one failure of an angel.
4 – mythology. For me, this is a matter of major importance, and I wish somebody in the writing room devoted some time to it and sorted it out at last. Respecting both Gamble and Carter as remarkably talented writers I can’t help but see that neither of them is not interested in this aspect of the show. But it is where huge possibilities lie! OK, this is a theme for another thread…
5 – cliches. I heard that when they were shooting a fight in one future episode it took nine hours. Can’t wait to see the scene – at last something diffrent than jumping and knocking against the wall. There have been too many such things lately, and I beg those in charge – beware of banalities and repetitions. Allow the boys to do something new, allow/them to be active – fight and climb, ride a horse or a bike, swim, whatever! Without detriment to the drama, of course.
The number of viewers is rising this season, so is the volume of bitter criticism. Is there a relation here?:-)
show.
I like season 9. But then again, I’ve liked every season. I watch Supernatural because I love this show, and because I want to enjoy myself. And I find something to like in every episode.
Sometimes, story plots or other issues are not adressed as extensively as others on the show, but there are always hints in the story, things to think about. That’s the nice thing about discussing the show: it gives you food for thought, and when I think about many things afterwards, they actually make sense.
The consent issues many people have problems with (and for me, the biggest issue here is actually Sam’s posession by Gadreel) have been part of the show almost since day 1, and at least since Sam was posessed by Meg on season 2 we saw firsthand what happens when another entity takes hold of your body. This show is called Supernatural, after all, and not everything that happens in it is all sunshine and puppies… And maybe those issues could be adressed more, or better, but they are, and will always be, a part of this show.
I think Sam and Dean have hit rock bottom right now – Sam has, once again, lost his own agency (or, sadly, that was something he never really had), is posessed by Gadreel and probably bound and gagged in some dark corner of his mind, and Dean is consumed by guilt because of his decisions – and as f***ed up as those decisions might be, and as bad as it is that he didn’t take Sam’s choices into consideration (and Dean knows that his decisions were selfish, according to his words to Timmy in “Bad Boys”), in Dean’s mind, he had to make them in order to save Sam. And I’m actually happy and thankful that he did, because I don’t want Sam to die either! And I just don’t see how giving up and dying could be considered a good and healthy option for anyone (and not only for Sam)…
So they are both in a very dark place right now, but in my opinion, this is an outcome that makes sense, considering what they had to endure since the very first episode of the show. It makes sense that their torment results to depression, and withdrawal, and panic, and wrong choices.
Those two boys are really f***ed up, but I love them and I love their story. And I am sure that they’ll find a way to get past this dark stretch, and find themselves in a better place when they overcome this. I love their broderly bond, and as unhealthy their codependence might be, I think it always helps them to survive. And I have faith in Sam and Dean to make it in the end.
Oh, and by the way: the only thing I really want after the hellatus is having Sammy back!
I like season 9. But then again, I’ve liked every season. I watch Supernatural because I love this show, and because I want to enjoy myself. And I find something to like in every episode.
Sometimes, story plots or other issues are not adressed as extensively as others on the show, but there are always hints in the story, things to think about. That’s the nice thing about discussing the show: it gives you food for thought, and when I think about many things afterwards, they actually make sense.
The consent issues many people have problems with (and for me, the biggest issue here is actually Sam’s posession by Gadreel) have been part of the show almost since day 1, and at least since Sam was posessed by Meg on season 2 we saw firsthand what happens when another entity takes hold of your body. This show is called Supernatural, after all, and not everything that happens in it is all sunshine and puppies… And maybe those issues could be adressed more, or better, but they are, and will always be, a part of this show.
I think Sam and Dean have hit rock bottom right now – Sam has, once again, lost his own agency (or, sadly, that was something he never really had), is posessed by Gadreel and probably bound and gagged in some dark corner of his mind, and Dean is consumed by guilt because of his decisions – and as f***ed up as those decisions might be, and as bad as it is that he didn’t take Sam’s choices into consideration (and Dean knows that his decisions were selfish, according to his words to Timmy in “Bad Boys”), in Dean’s mind, he had to make them in order to save Sam. And I’m actually happy and thankful that he did, because I don’t want Sam to die either! And I just don’t see how giving up and dying could be considered a good and healthy option for anyone (and not only for Sam)…
So they are both in a very dark place right now, but in my opinion, this is an outcome that makes sense, considering what they had to endure since the very first episode of the show. It makes sense that their torment results to depression, and withdrawal, and panic, and wrong choices.
Those two boys are really f***ed up, but I love them and I love their story. And I am sure that they’ll find a way to get past this dark stretch, and find themselves in a better place when they overcome this. I love their broderly bond, and as unhealthy their codependence might be, I think it always helps them to survive. And I have faith in Sam and Dean to make it in the end.
Oh, and by the way: the only thing I really want after the hellatus is having Sammy back!
Count me in with those who are thoroughly enjoying S9. There have been a few episodes I’ve not liked as much but overall I’ve enjoyed the first half of this season much, much more than the first half of S8 (in fact I had given up watching the show by the Christmas break last year).
I’m loving all the brotherly stuff this year. As usual, Sam and Dean are breaking my heart. Those poor, poor boys. I, mostly, watch for Sam and Dean and their crazy, messed up relationship and I am loving the brotherly drama and angst this year. I’m looking forward to Crowley’s storyline kicking up into gear too.
However I am a bit worried about what comes next. I have everything crossed that when we get Sam back we will also get to see how Sam is affected by what has happened, not just how it has affected Dean. I want equal Sam and Dean POV/insight. Also I have everything crossed that we don’t see another Castiel quick fix for Sam when we eventually get Sam back (if, that is, Sam is still being held together by duct tape or whatever it is he’s being held together with). All I want for Christmas is Sammy back but if Father Christmas could also throw in a sackful of Sam POV then I’ll put out a whole plateful of mince pies for him along with the brandy. 😆
I have been watching since The Pilot and while I have been seriously cheesed off by a lot of things on Show – e.g John being killed off, Castiel’s quick fix for Sam in S7, Sam POV or rather the lack of – I still seem to adore the show and Sam and Dean. Even when I stopped watching last season I didn’t stay away for too long and I was still coming here to read the reviews of the episodes I missed. I’ve been watching since The Pilot, I couldn’t cut those ties completely. 😆 I know that I’ll be watching until the credits roll on the very last episode.
Count me in with those who are thoroughly enjoying S9. There have been a few episodes I’ve not liked as much but overall I’ve enjoyed the first half of this season much, much more than the first half of S8 (in fact I had given up watching the show by the Christmas break last year).
I’m loving all the brotherly stuff this year. As usual, Sam and Dean are breaking my heart. Those poor, poor boys. I, mostly, watch for Sam and Dean and their crazy, messed up relationship and I am loving the brotherly drama and angst this year. I’m looking forward to Crowley’s storyline kicking up into gear too.
However I am a bit worried about what comes next. I have everything crossed that when we get Sam back we will also get to see how Sam is affected by what has happened, not just how it has affected Dean. I want equal Sam and Dean POV/insight. Also I have everything crossed that we don’t see another Castiel quick fix for Sam when we eventually get Sam back (if, that is, Sam is still being held together by duct tape or whatever it is he’s being held together with). All I want for Christmas is Sammy back but if Father Christmas could also throw in a sackful of Sam POV then I’ll put out a whole plateful of mince pies for him along with the brandy. 😆
I have been watching since The Pilot and while I have been seriously cheesed off by a lot of things on Show – e.g John being killed off, Castiel’s quick fix for Sam in S7, Sam POV or rather the lack of – I still seem to adore the show and Sam and Dean. Even when I stopped watching last season I didn’t stay away for too long and I was still coming here to read the reviews of the episodes I missed. I’ve been watching since The Pilot, I couldn’t cut those ties completely. 😆 I know that I’ll be watching until the credits roll on the very last episode.
[quote name=”Sharon”]If we actually get Sam back and Jeremy decides who Sam is and starts focusing on that Sam . Then I will know wether season 9 is just like other seasons and even more Sam disappears or it elevates itself above that and starts restoring Sam to the person he has a right to be.
And a pov to match.[/quote]
[quote name=”Sharon”]If we actually get Sam back and Jeremy decides who Sam is and starts focusing on that Sam . Then I will know wether season 9 is just like other seasons and even more Sam disappears or it elevates itself above that and starts restoring Sam to the person he has a right to be.
And a pov to match.[/quote]
I agree with this. When you truely think abou it; Sams’ story needs Dean to be told; but it doesn’t need Sam to be told.
Whereupon…Deans story needs Dean for it to be told but Deans story doesn’t need Sam to be told.
Sam NEEDS a POV, he needs far more attention to hsi thoughts and feelings…and he needs to be able to connect with other charectors for more then one vague scene every ten episodes. And these other charectors need to learn about Sam from SAM himself…not Dean and certainly not becuse they read some stupid books on the internet.
If the writers can’t be bothered to bring Sam out of the shadows and give him POV, and more insight then they may as well kill him off for good. Its obvious Sam isn’t needed for the brothers bond. In tghe Beginning and The End showed us Sam isn’t needed…just Deans memory.
Kill Sam off and give Jared a new charector to play ….it should be simply enough to do as they do this EVERY SINGLE YEAR so they can get rid of Sam anyway. OR start giving Sam the attention he has every right to. I know this means the writers and caerver will have to actucally THINK about who Sam is as a charector and his motiovations and his OWN love for Deanb
But this fan thinks Sam is worth it. And I hope Carver thinks this too and is willing to put the effort into Sam. Though Sam’s possession and porobably eradication by Gadreel may point to the thought he doesn’t think Sam is worth his time and effort.
[quote]If we actually get Sam back and Jeremy decides who Sam is and starts focusing on that Sam . Then I will know wether season 9 is just like other seasons and even more Sam disappears or it elevates itself above that and starts restoring Sam to the person he has a right to be.
And a pov to match.[/quote]
[quote]If we actually get Sam back and Jeremy decides who Sam is and starts focusing on that Sam . Then I will know wether season 9 is just like other seasons and even more Sam disappears or it elevates itself above that and starts restoring Sam to the person he has a right to be.
And a pov to match.[/quote]
I agree with this. When you truely think abou it; Sams’ story needs Dean to be told; but it doesn’t need Sam to be told.
Whereupon…Deans story needs Dean for it to be told but Deans story doesn’t need Sam to be told.
Sam NEEDS a POV, he needs far more attention to hsi thoughts and feelings…and he needs to be able to connect with other charectors for more then one vague scene every ten episodes. And these other charectors need to learn about Sam from SAM himself…not Dean and certainly not becuse they read some stupid books on the internet.
If the writers can’t be bothered to bring Sam out of the shadows and give him POV, and more insight then they may as well kill him off for good. Its obvious Sam isn’t needed for the brothers bond. In tghe Beginning and The End showed us Sam isn’t needed…just Deans memory.
Kill Sam off and give Jared a new charector to play ….it should be simply enough to do as they do this EVERY SINGLE YEAR so they can get rid of Sam anyway. OR start giving Sam the attention he has every right to. I know this means the writers and caerver will have to actucally THINK about who Sam is as a charector and his motiovations and his OWN love for Deanb
But this fan thinks Sam is worth it. And I hope Carver thinks this too and is willing to put the effort into Sam. Though Sam’s possession and porobably eradication by Gadreel may point to the thought he doesn’t think Sam is worth his time and effort.
Suddenly – Season 9 – all my hopes were dashed. We’ve had some really great emotional scenes from Jensen, proving what an incredible actor he is, BUT not only are the brothers not talking, not reconciling, but Sam is actually not!Sam! Again! (And again, some incredible stuff from Jared!)
Even with the glimpses of Sam that we’ve had, I have to wonder whether they can be taken as true or as manipulated. When Sam was happy, was he happy or did Gadreel make him feel that way to fool Dean?
I watch this show for the interaction (relationship, if you will) between the brothers. I don’t give a damn about Cas or the angels. I like supporting characters who support – not suddenly become the main focus or the hero of the day.
If this article goes anywhere – my bottom line message to TPTB would be this. USE the incredible talent of the two guys. THEY are what the show needs to focus on. THEIR chemistry. STOP trying to find conflict between the brothers. STOP hiding Sam behind afflictions and secondary characters. START allowing the brothers to truly mend their relationship and START allowing them to work together as a team once again.
Thank you.
ETA: I’m not even going to mention the canon destroying things in season 8 and 9. Hey, PTB. WE take it seriously. PLEASE treat canon with more care.[/quote]
Thank you so much. Anything i said…I thiknk i was trying to say…you said what was in my heart…my very soul. so thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Suddenly – Season 9 – all my hopes were dashed. We’ve had some really great emotional scenes from Jensen, proving what an incredible actor he is, BUT not only are the brothers not talking, not reconciling, but Sam is actually not!Sam! Again! (And again, some incredible stuff from Jared!)
Even with the glimpses of Sam that we’ve had, I have to wonder whether they can be taken as true or as manipulated. When Sam was happy, was he happy or did Gadreel make him feel that way to fool Dean?
I watch this show for the interaction (relationship, if you will) between the brothers. I don’t give a damn about Cas or the angels. I like supporting characters who support – not suddenly become the main focus or the hero of the day.
If this article goes anywhere – my bottom line message to TPTB would be this. USE the incredible talent of the two guys. THEY are what the show needs to focus on. THEIR chemistry. STOP trying to find conflict between the brothers. STOP hiding Sam behind afflictions and secondary characters. START allowing the brothers to truly mend their relationship and START allowing them to work together as a team once again.
Thank you.
ETA: I’m not even going to mention the canon destroying things in season 8 and 9. Hey, PTB. WE take it seriously. PLEASE treat canon with more care.[/quote]
Thank you so much. Anything i said…I thiknk i was trying to say…you said what was in my heart…my very soul. so thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]#32hinkid my sister is a brand new fan as is her whole family. I told her to avoid fansites like the plague. :-)[/quote]
Good idea! Actually, the best idea EVER! I wish I had had someone to tell me that a few years back, ha!
[quote]#32hinkid my sister is a brand new fan as is her whole family. I told her to avoid fansites like the plague. :-)[/quote]
Good idea! Actually, the best idea EVER! I wish I had had someone to tell me that a few years back, ha!
I’m more invested in season 9 than I was in season 8. There are hints of goodness. I really enjoyed Bad Boys though it was a a blatent rip off of the film Mama. I raged during seasons 6 & 7, then finally came to terms with show. It’s never going to be as good as it was under Kripke. It was his baby and now we’re left with the babysitters. Of course they care but not the same way a creator cares and without that breed of oversight SPN is more of a Saturday morning kids show and less thoughtful drama.
Re canon issues. As a Doctor Who fan (show has been on for decades) I’m ok with changing canon amd de/re-canoning plots and characters. The writers want to write new stories and being strict with canon doesn’t allow that. Plus SPN has never been good with sticking to canon. When Bobby wad first introduced Sam didn’t even know him and Dean barely did. By season 7 he pretty much fostered them. A major canon shift over seasons.
I still adore show and “have” to see how it all ends the quality has nosed dived post-Kripke.
I’m more invested in season 9 than I was in season 8. There are hints of goodness. I really enjoyed Bad Boys though it was a a blatent rip off of the film Mama. I raged during seasons 6 & 7, then finally came to terms with show. It’s never going to be as good as it was under Kripke. It was his baby and now we’re left with the babysitters. Of course they care but not the same way a creator cares and without that breed of oversight SPN is more of a Saturday morning kids show and less thoughtful drama.
Re canon issues. As a Doctor Who fan (show has been on for decades) I’m ok with changing canon amd de/re-canoning plots and characters. The writers want to write new stories and being strict with canon doesn’t allow that. Plus SPN has never been good with sticking to canon. When Bobby wad first introduced Sam didn’t even know him and Dean barely did. By season 7 he pretty much fostered them. A major canon shift over seasons.
I still adore show and “have” to see how it all ends the quality has nosed dived post-Kripke.
SPN is always my diamond. Waiting for a new episode every week tortures me and I find that season 9 is awesome !
SPN is always my diamond. Waiting for a new episode every week tortures me and I find that season 9 is awesome !
I’ve never been invested in a show like I am with supernatural. I have always had shows I liked,and still do, but if I missed an episode, oh well, no big deal. I’d never bought DVD’s of shows cause I don’t do repeats. Now I own 8 DVDs and they’re all Supernatural. I certainly never went on websites about shows and read other peoples comments and reviews and a lot of times I still wish I didn’t. That may be my New Years’ resolution.
I think Jensen Ackles is an exceptional actor. It’s not just that he’s good looking, although he certainly is, but that with just a look or gesture he can convey so much more then just the words he’s saying. I love the character he has created and as long as he’s on SPN I’ll be watching.
I’ve never been invested in a show like I am with supernatural. I have always had shows I liked,and still do, but if I missed an episode, oh well, no big deal. I’d never bought DVD’s of shows cause I don’t do repeats. Now I own 8 DVDs and they’re all Supernatural. I certainly never went on websites about shows and read other peoples comments and reviews and a lot of times I still wish I didn’t. That may be my New Years’ resolution.
I think Jensen Ackles is an exceptional actor. It’s not just that he’s good looking, although he certainly is, but that with just a look or gesture he can convey so much more then just the words he’s saying. I love the character he has created and as long as he’s on SPN I’ll be watching.
It’s hard for me to answer the question in the title. First although I have loved Supernatural for a long time, I have had some issues with it, mostly going back to season 4, and some farther than that. I completely understand why people had issues with the April sex storyline. April as a possessed person was raped, IMHO, and Cas’s participation was pretty non-consensual, but I long ago realized that if I am in any way going to be able to enjoy Supernatural I have to turn off my feminist outlook and take it for what it is. The same goes for any hope of a decent representation of ethnic and racial minorities. Kevin was pretty much a red-shirt from the moment he came on and being Asian didn’t give them a reason to change that evaluation. The Apocalypse story in season five made me a little nuts what with it being very obviously the Christian Apocalypse and Hammer of the Gods made it clear that other religions, even those still being practiced would be portrayed as less than the Judeo-Christian one. So I have tried to ignore those issues. Man’s Best Friend, With Benefits was such a nadir on sexual and racial issues that I can’t even flinch at April having sex while possessed.
For me the problem with season nine, if there is one, is that it is not doing much to address my issues with certain set patterns in the show. Sam still remains a total enigma with no POV, no friends and still living a life he has repeatedly stated he does not want. When he makes a controversial decision like not looking for Dean last season we get no look as to how he coped with Dean’s death. With Dean, when he makes a controversial or flat out wrong (IMHO) decision we get repeated, and detailed views of why he made it and how it affects him. When Sam finds out he has been violated with Dean’s help, we don’t even see him react, we see the reaction that the angel that violated him decides to PORTRAY as being Sam’s, partly to make sure Dean is thrown off kilter. But again, this has been the pattern since season four and although I wish each year that the writers will change it, I honestly don’t expect that to happen.
I do find the canon switches to be disheartening. Yes, no one explicitly stated that Reapers don’t take vessels just as no one said Death was a straight arrow tough as nails boss who wouldn’t tolerate Reapers going rouge. Yes, the fact that up until now Reapers have been beings of spirit doesn’t mean that suddenly wanting physical things so they can be bribed is a retcon. It just makes no sense to me. But I try to ignore the parts that make the least sense to me. I will say that canon suddenly becoming malleable is actually one of the things that is making me rethink Supernatural. Much like Sam not looking for Dean I can live with the sudden changes, I just want a couple of lines with someone, anyone asking how they missed these facts or explaining why things changed.
I do have issues with the mytharc storyline. I was pretty well DONE with the angels a long time ago. I could buy the fallout of the derailed Apocalypse causing the heavenly wars in season six. But starting with season eight I lost all interest. Naomi and her CIAngels never really went anywhere IMHO. What was she trying to accomplish with Cas? Why did she want the Angel Tablets? Why was she torturing angels? It just didn’t jell for me. Metatron is an interesting idea of the scribe deciding to take more power, but in the end we just have more angels that I don’t know or care about running around the world. They don’t have anything to do with Sam and Dean particularly. Other than a few anemic attempts to kill Cas they don’t have anything to do with him. Gadreel has a relationship with Sam and Dean, but since he’s hiding from the rest of the angels, I don’t see any point to roving bands of angels.
I did like Cas’s foray into being human. I’m not a Cas fan, but I can take non-comic relief Cas over comic relief Cas, or fish out of water Cas, or well any Cas except season four and season six (I liked Cas the villain).
Basically Supernatural is losing it’s luster for me. I may stick with it until the end, or I may wander away. Having no other scripted show that I care about against it keeps it on my live viewing queue but it could fall off. I am happy for those still enjoying it, but I’m slowly losing interest.
It’s hard for me to answer the question in the title. First although I have loved Supernatural for a long time, I have had some issues with it, mostly going back to season 4, and some farther than that. I completely understand why people had issues with the April sex storyline. April as a possessed person was raped, IMHO, and Cas’s participation was pretty non-consensual, but I long ago realized that if I am in any way going to be able to enjoy Supernatural I have to turn off my feminist outlook and take it for what it is. The same goes for any hope of a decent representation of ethnic and racial minorities. Kevin was pretty much a red-shirt from the moment he came on and being Asian didn’t give them a reason to change that evaluation. The Apocalypse story in season five made me a little nuts what with it being very obviously the Christian Apocalypse and Hammer of the Gods made it clear that other religions, even those still being practiced would be portrayed as less than the Judeo-Christian one. So I have tried to ignore those issues. Man’s Best Friend, With Benefits was such a nadir on sexual and racial issues that I can’t even flinch at April having sex while possessed.
For me the problem with season nine, if there is one, is that it is not doing much to address my issues with certain set patterns in the show. Sam still remains a total enigma with no POV, no friends and still living a life he has repeatedly stated he does not want. When he makes a controversial decision like not looking for Dean last season we get no look as to how he coped with Dean’s death. With Dean, when he makes a controversial or flat out wrong (IMHO) decision we get repeated, and detailed views of why he made it and how it affects him. When Sam finds out he has been violated with Dean’s help, we don’t even see him react, we see the reaction that the angel that violated him decides to PORTRAY as being Sam’s, partly to make sure Dean is thrown off kilter. But again, this has been the pattern since season four and although I wish each year that the writers will change it, I honestly don’t expect that to happen.
I do find the canon switches to be disheartening. Yes, no one explicitly stated that Reapers don’t take vessels just as no one said Death was a straight arrow tough as nails boss who wouldn’t tolerate Reapers going rouge. Yes, the fact that up until now Reapers have been beings of spirit doesn’t mean that suddenly wanting physical things so they can be bribed is a retcon. It just makes no sense to me. But I try to ignore the parts that make the least sense to me. I will say that canon suddenly becoming malleable is actually one of the things that is making me rethink Supernatural. Much like Sam not looking for Dean I can live with the sudden changes, I just want a couple of lines with someone, anyone asking how they missed these facts or explaining why things changed.
I do have issues with the mytharc storyline. I was pretty well DONE with the angels a long time ago. I could buy the fallout of the derailed Apocalypse causing the heavenly wars in season six. But starting with season eight I lost all interest. Naomi and her CIAngels never really went anywhere IMHO. What was she trying to accomplish with Cas? Why did she want the Angel Tablets? Why was she torturing angels? It just didn’t jell for me. Metatron is an interesting idea of the scribe deciding to take more power, but in the end we just have more angels that I don’t know or care about running around the world. They don’t have anything to do with Sam and Dean particularly. Other than a few anemic attempts to kill Cas they don’t have anything to do with him. Gadreel has a relationship with Sam and Dean, but since he’s hiding from the rest of the angels, I don’t see any point to roving bands of angels.
I did like Cas’s foray into being human. I’m not a Cas fan, but I can take non-comic relief Cas over comic relief Cas, or fish out of water Cas, or well any Cas except season four and season six (I liked Cas the villain).
Basically Supernatural is losing it’s luster for me. I may stick with it until the end, or I may wander away. Having no other scripted show that I care about against it keeps it on my live viewing queue but it could fall off. I am happy for those still enjoying it, but I’m slowly losing interest.
I’m just curious, having read about some people’s problems with this season. I wasn’t following any Supernatural websites during the first six seasons, so I’d like to know if the episode Swap Meat got a similar reaction to the April/Castiel non-consensual storyline of this season.
It seems to me that Supernatural has never shied away from this – as possession has been a theme throughout and so many terrible things happen when a person is possessed (including rape & murder). Remember the women who gave birth to Jesse, the Antichrist child? What she went through must’ve been horrendous.
In Swap Meat, Sam’s body was used without his consent by a teenager who picked up a woman in the bar. I often wondered if Sam ever knew about that part of his body swap nightmare. Did people have the same response back then?
And note, both of these episodes were in the Kripke years.
I can understand why it upsets people but I don’t watch Supernatural as being a show for dealing with real-life issues (even though they do occasionally tackle them). This show, for me, is a fantasy. It’s an escape… and it’s not set in any reality that I know… although sometimes I tend to forget that 😉
I should add that the one part of the show that I do think is based in reality is the theme of ‘family’ and I think this is why the relationship between the brothers resonates with so many people. But, the rest – the monsters, demons, angels, possessions, spells, magic, etc – all fall into the category of ‘fantasy’.
I’m just curious, having read about some people’s problems with this season. I wasn’t following any Supernatural websites during the first six seasons, so I’d like to know if the episode Swap Meat got a similar reaction to the April/Castiel non-consensual storyline of this season.
It seems to me that Supernatural has never shied away from this – as possession has been a theme throughout and so many terrible things happen when a person is possessed (including rape & murder). Remember the women who gave birth to Jesse, the Antichrist child? What she went through must’ve been horrendous.
In Swap Meat, Sam’s body was used without his consent by a teenager who picked up a woman in the bar. I often wondered if Sam ever knew about that part of his body swap nightmare. Did people have the same response back then?
And note, both of these episodes were in the Kripke years.
I can understand why it upsets people but I don’t watch Supernatural as being a show for dealing with real-life issues (even though they do occasionally tackle them). This show, for me, is a fantasy. It’s an escape… and it’s not set in any reality that I know… although sometimes I tend to forget that 😉
I should add that the one part of the show that I do think is based in reality is the theme of ‘family’ and I think this is why the relationship between the brothers resonates with so many people. But, the rest – the monsters, demons, angels, possessions, spells, magic, etc – all fall into the category of ‘fantasy’.
#62 KG_SPN I didn’t follow any websites until S7 and was wondering myself, today, what comments might have been made in earlier seasons and were they like the ones today.
I was really surprised at the negative outcry about Dean hooking up with Suzy and the feeling that he was sleezy and had forced sex on her. Not something I thought at all. Also the racism because they spoke Spanish.
What then was the reaction when Sam had sex with a demon inhabiting a dead girl’s body and then drinking her blood? Also a Kripke year.
I see this show as an excellent fantasy show with lots of drama, emotion and comedy and I don’t really care to elevate to something with a deeper meaning.
#62 KG_SPN I didn’t follow any websites until S7 and was wondering myself, today, what comments might have been made in earlier seasons and were they like the ones today.
I was really surprised at the negative outcry about Dean hooking up with Suzy and the feeling that he was sleezy and had forced sex on her. Not something I thought at all. Also the racism because they spoke Spanish.
What then was the reaction when Sam had sex with a demon inhabiting a dead girl’s body and then drinking her blood? Also a Kripke year.
I see this show as an excellent fantasy show with lots of drama, emotion and comedy and I don’t really care to elevate to something with a deeper meaning.
[quote] I wasn’t following any Supernatural websites during the first six seasons, so I’d like to know if the episode Swap Meat got a similar reaction to the April/Castiel non-consensual storyline of this season. [/quote]
Swap Meat didn’t deal with it at all. I’m not sure Sam had any idea what Gary did with his body and I don’t remember Dean telling him. Dean was originally approving about Sam “getting some” so that may have been why there wasn’t much of a fuss in fandom.
[quote]What then was the reaction when Sam had sex with a demon inhabiting a dead girl’s body and then drinking her blood? Also a Kripke year.[/quote]
First you have to know that it took Sera Gamble to push the point that if Ruby was inhabiting a live girl it WOULD be rape and Sam would be a rapist. NONE of the male writers gave it a thought. SG pushed for the taking over of a dead meat suit. Before that was revealed, Sam WAS being called a rapist. It was never really pointed out that having sex with a highly inebriated, suicidal person is definitely dubious consent bordering on non-con. After it was revealed he was only called a necrophiliac. And yes vampire was one of the nicer terms when the blood drinking came up. So no, Kripke was absolutely NO better with issues of consent due to demon possession. As to why the outrage was less, maybe because the story was more compelling. Maybe because it was because it hadn’t happened before so people didn’t think about it in depth. maybe it was because in both other cases the victim was Sam and no one really cared if he was raped.
As to the woman who gave birth to the Antichrist after being possessed by a demon was shown to be traumatized. The term rape was never used, but it was portrayed as affecting her badly. By that time SG had made her stand about a possessed person having sex being rape and had blown her wad keeping Sam from being a rapist the previous season, so the fact that it was shown to be a bad thing may have been as good as they were going to do.
[quote] I wasn’t following any Supernatural websites during the first six seasons, so I’d like to know if the episode Swap Meat got a similar reaction to the April/Castiel non-consensual storyline of this season. [/quote]
Swap Meat didn’t deal with it at all. I’m not sure Sam had any idea what Gary did with his body and I don’t remember Dean telling him. Dean was originally approving about Sam “getting some” so that may have been why there wasn’t much of a fuss in fandom.
[quote]What then was the reaction when Sam had sex with a demon inhabiting a dead girl’s body and then drinking her blood? Also a Kripke year.[/quote]
First you have to know that it took Sera Gamble to push the point that if Ruby was inhabiting a live girl it WOULD be rape and Sam would be a rapist. NONE of the male writers gave it a thought. SG pushed for the taking over of a dead meat suit. Before that was revealed, Sam WAS being called a rapist. It was never really pointed out that having sex with a highly inebriated, suicidal person is definitely dubious consent bordering on non-con. After it was revealed he was only called a necrophiliac. And yes vampire was one of the nicer terms when the blood drinking came up. So no, Kripke was absolutely NO better with issues of consent due to demon possession. As to why the outrage was less, maybe because the story was more compelling. Maybe because it was because it hadn’t happened before so people didn’t think about it in depth. maybe it was because in both other cases the victim was Sam and no one really cared if he was raped.
As to the woman who gave birth to the Antichrist after being possessed by a demon was shown to be traumatized. The term rape was never used, but it was portrayed as affecting her badly. By that time SG had made her stand about a possessed person having sex being rape and had blown her wad keeping Sam from being a rapist the previous season, so the fact that it was shown to be a bad thing may have been as good as they were going to do.
[quote name=”Prix68″]I see this show as an excellent fantasy show with lots of drama, emotion and comedy and I don’t really care to elevate to something with a deeper meaning.[/quote]
Yes, that sums up nicely how I see the show too 🙂
[quote]I see this show as an excellent fantasy show with lots of drama, emotion and comedy and I don’t really care to elevate to something with a deeper meaning.[/quote]
Yes, that sums up nicely how I see the show too 🙂
The jury is out on s9 for me. Everything depends on how the real Sam reacts to finding out about the decision Dean made. After the ridiculous, ooc debacle in s8 of Sam not looking for Dean my already stretched thin patience for pointless bro angst almost broke. I have never been closer to giving up on the show than I was in early s8. In fact after the truly dreadful Citizen Cane I almost didn’t come back after the Christmas break. So if Sam reacts in the way we have been led to believe he will; furious with Dean, outraged, ‘get out of my sight’ furious that leads to an extended period of estrangement / them working separately etc then I will be seriously dissatisfied. If however Sam reacts how I think he would and should ie unhappy but understanding and not at all angry with Dean, then I will be OK with s9 so far.
I really feel like s9 has kept me detached and in limbo. I am finding it hard to emotionally engage with it because there is this question over whether Sam is really Sam, because every exchange between D&S feels like it has an audience that is spoiling their normal chemistry, and because there is this huge secret.
It also has not done a good job of pacing. I am OK with MOTW, but you have to take a few mins out of each one to move the myth arc along a little, rather than just mentioning / repeating where we are with it as they have. Every ep has had a reminder scene that Zeke is in Sam and Dean feels bad. Yes we know. Move on already!!
As for the gender politics, racial issues etc I really don’t care. SPN is not representative of real life. Women don’t get possessed by demons in the real world. The usual rules don’t apply. So I can’t get worked up about MBFWB or the lady Cas slept with (who btw he didn’t know was possessed so why was sleeping with her wrong?)
What has disappointed me has been the complete lack of brotherly moments and real emotional kick this year so far. The only ones I can think of were seeing young Dean’s face when he saw Sam in the car, fraught Dean in the hospital (although Sam was unconscious) and Kevin being killed. The rest has left me curiously cold.
But I am not unhappy, I am just biding my time and reserving judgement. I won’t know how I feel about the Samekiel story until I see Sam’s response. Fingers crossed the writers will surprise us and give us a mature, understanding reaction.
The jury is out on s9 for me. Everything depends on how the real Sam reacts to finding out about the decision Dean made. After the ridiculous, ooc debacle in s8 of Sam not looking for Dean my already stretched thin patience for pointless bro angst almost broke. I have never been closer to giving up on the show than I was in early s8. In fact after the truly dreadful Citizen Cane I almost didn’t come back after the Christmas break. So if Sam reacts in the way we have been led to believe he will; furious with Dean, outraged, ‘get out of my sight’ furious that leads to an extended period of estrangement / them working separately etc then I will be seriously dissatisfied. If however Sam reacts how I think he would and should ie unhappy but understanding and not at all angry with Dean, then I will be OK with s9 so far.
I really feel like s9 has kept me detached and in limbo. I am finding it hard to emotionally engage with it because there is this question over whether Sam is really Sam, because every exchange between D&S feels like it has an audience that is spoiling their normal chemistry, and because there is this huge secret.
It also has not done a good job of pacing. I am OK with MOTW, but you have to take a few mins out of each one to move the myth arc along a little, rather than just mentioning / repeating where we are with it as they have. Every ep has had a reminder scene that Zeke is in Sam and Dean feels bad. Yes we know. Move on already!!
As for the gender politics, racial issues etc I really don’t care. SPN is not representative of real life. Women don’t get possessed by demons in the real world. The usual rules don’t apply. So I can’t get worked up about MBFWB or the lady Cas slept with (who btw he didn’t know was possessed so why was sleeping with her wrong?)
What has disappointed me has been the complete lack of brotherly moments and real emotional kick this year so far. The only ones I can think of were seeing young Dean’s face when he saw Sam in the car, fraught Dean in the hospital (although Sam was unconscious) and Kevin being killed. The rest has left me curiously cold.
But I am not unhappy, I am just biding my time and reserving judgement. I won’t know how I feel about the Samekiel story until I see Sam’s response. Fingers crossed the writers will surprise us and give us a mature, understanding reaction.
I honestly do not think in this situation angst is going to be avoided . This was not just anything ordinary Dean did to ‘save’ Sam or the fact Dean used the situation . And the fact Sam will have to process Kevin’s death by his hands.
As I stated before Sam should be allowed the reaction he needs in this and that reaction is done for Sam.
I honestly do not think in this situation angst is going to be avoided . This was not just anything ordinary Dean did to ‘save’ Sam or the fact Dean used the situation . And the fact Sam will have to process Kevin’s death by his hands.
As I stated before Sam should be allowed the reaction he needs in this and that reaction is done for Sam.
[quote name=”Sharon”]I honestly do not think in this situation angst is going to be avoided . This was not just anything ordinary Dean did to ‘save’ Sam or the fact Dean used the situation . And the fact Sam will have to process Kevin’s death by his hands.
As I stated before Sam should be allowed the reaction he needs in this and that reaction is done for Sam.[/quote]
I agree that Sam needs to have his reaction. But that reaction should be in character, and should show growth in their relationship not regression. How many times have they said to each other ‘no more secrets’, ‘all is forgiven’, ‘clean slate’ etc only for the writers to throw them back into the same, repetitive, stupid patterns of anger, storming off, coming back together but without ever resolving anything? Plus Sam is still feeling the guilt over not looking for Dean. Let’s leave to one side how utterly moronic, ooc, and unfair on the character of Sam that story was. It happened and he feels bad about it. So if ANY opportunity to save Dean came up now, regardless of the price, I feel Sam would take it. So he should be understanding of the position Dean was in in that hospital.
If we get a rinse and repeat of Amy, Benny, (even going back to Scarecrow) I will be extremely disappointed. Particularly as these days those kinds of excuses to have them apart for a while just look like transparent attempts to give the Js some time off rather than genuine dramatic, character-driven decisions.
[quote]I honestly do not think in this situation angst is going to be avoided . This was not just anything ordinary Dean did to ‘save’ Sam or the fact Dean used the situation . And the fact Sam will have to process Kevin’s death by his hands.
As I stated before Sam should be allowed the reaction he needs in this and that reaction is done for Sam.[/quote]
I agree that Sam needs to have his reaction. But that reaction should be in character, and should show growth in their relationship not regression. How many times have they said to each other ‘no more secrets’, ‘all is forgiven’, ‘clean slate’ etc only for the writers to throw them back into the same, repetitive, stupid patterns of anger, storming off, coming back together but without ever resolving anything? Plus Sam is still feeling the guilt over not looking for Dean. Let’s leave to one side how utterly moronic, ooc, and unfair on the character of Sam that story was. It happened and he feels bad about it. So if ANY opportunity to save Dean came up now, regardless of the price, I feel Sam would take it. So he should be understanding of the position Dean was in in that hospital.
If we get a rinse and repeat of Amy, Benny, (even going back to Scarecrow) I will be extremely disappointed. Particularly as these days those kinds of excuses to have them apart for a while just look like transparent attempts to give the Js some time off rather than genuine dramatic, character-driven decisions.
[quote name=”Geordiegirl1967″][quote .[/quote]
Plus Sam is still feeling the guilt over not looking for Dean. Let’s leave to one side how utterly moronic, ooc, and unfair on the character of Sam that story was. It happened and he feels bad about it. So if ANY opportunity to save Dean came up now, regardless of the price, I feel Sam would take it. So he should be understanding of the position Dean was in in that hospital. [/quote]
Actually, I have been formulating a completely different take on this point lately. I was incredibly vocal at the start of season 8 about how OOC I felt the ‘Not Looking’ story line was, how much I hated it, how unsympathetic it made Sam look etc, etc… but now, in light of the events of this season… the ‘Saving Sam at any and all costs’ story we are getting this year and how awful the consequences of this decision have turned out to be, I am beginning to see where Carver is going with the whole thing.. or at least where I think he’s going. This saving each other at all costs, as death has said on any number of occasions, “disturbs the natural order” and essentially creates chaos in it’s wake. I am wondering if the boys are getting schooled, for lack of a better term. They shouldn’t be saving each other at any and all costs, it’s destructive, it disturbs the natural order, it creates chaos and other people suffer. All the way back in season 3’s Mystery Spot we got this dialog exchange between the trickster and Sam: (Written by JC BTW… :-* )
TRICKSTER
True. But that don’t mean I should. Sam, there’s a lesson here that I’ve been trying to drill into that freakish Cro-Magnon skull of yours.
SAM
Lesson? What lesson?
TRICKSTER
This obsession to save Dean? The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other? Nothing good comes out of it. Just blood and pain. Dean’s your weakness. And the bad guys know it, too. It’s gonna be the death of you, Sam. Sometimes you just gotta let people go.
It took a few seasons, but it seems that Sam has learned this lesson; that sometimes the price of their love for one another is too high in the grand scheme of things and its become a price that he’s not willing to pay as evidenced by his not looking for Dean at the start of season 8. As he said, he thought Dean was dead and maybe that was better in the long run than making a risky deal for his return. Maybe Dean is now in the process of learning that lesson for himself too. His words to Timmy in Bad Boys may be part of his growing understanding of this idea and that maybe it even applies to him and Sam.
DEAN
She’s a ghost. Timmy, because she can’t move on, she’s going crazy. Okay? You got to let her go. You’ll be okay.
SAM gasps in pain.
DEAN (continues)
Listen to me. Sometimes you got to do what’s best for you, even if it’s gonna hurt the ones you love.
So, no I don’t think that Sam would take any opportunity to save Dean at the expense of others; I think he has already proven that he won’t, and his conversation with Death in 9×1 further proves that he doesn’t want himself saved at all costs either, that sometimes the price is just too high. Dean needs to learn this as well IMO, that his love for his brother does not mean he should let others suffer for it, which is what is happening now and frankly which is what always happens when these two go down that road. I think maybe JC is trying to break the brothers of their completely destructive co-dependency on one another and creating for them a better sense of independence and self and hopeful a new relationship a stronger one that understands that there are limits; lord knows they need it! For me, this won’t mean that they don’t love one another any more or won’t fight for one another with everything that they have, it just means that they won’t end up destroying the world or make earth shattering deals that puts everyone else at risk for the sake of the other any more. Death will have some meaning on this show once again perhaps. If that’s where JC is headed, what needs to happen now, IMO, is that the brothers need to say so. Once the dust settles from the current awfulness, Sam needs to say… “See? This is why I let you go last year, this right here…we have to stop doing this kind of thing.” If that happens (maybe I won’t hold my breath 😆 ) I could maybe even believe in the ‘not looking’ storyline and understand why they decided to write Sam in that way, and why they are writing Dean in the way that they are writing him now.
[quote][quote]
Plus Sam is still feeling the guilt over not looking for Dean. Let’s leave to one side how utterly moronic, ooc, and unfair on the character of Sam that story was. It happened and he feels bad about it. So if ANY opportunity to save Dean came up now, regardless of the price, I feel Sam would take it. So he should be understanding of the position Dean was in in that hospital. [/quote]
Actually, I have been formulating a completely different take on this point lately. I was incredibly vocal at the start of season 8 about how OOC I felt the ‘Not Looking’ story line was, how much I hated it, how unsympathetic it made Sam look etc, etc… but now, in light of the events of this season… the ‘Saving Sam at any and all costs’ story we are getting this year and how awful the consequences of this decision have turned out to be, I am beginning to see where Carver is going with the whole thing.. or at least where I think he’s going. This saving each other at all costs, as death has said on any number of occasions, “disturbs the natural order” and essentially creates chaos in it’s wake. I am wondering if the boys are getting schooled, for lack of a better term. They shouldn’t be saving each other at any and all costs, it’s destructive, it disturbs the natural order, it creates chaos and other people suffer. All the way back in season 3’s Mystery Spot we got this dialog exchange between the trickster and Sam: (Written by JC BTW… :-* )
TRICKSTER
True. But that don’t mean I should. Sam, there’s a lesson here that I’ve been trying to drill into that freakish Cro-Magnon skull of yours.
SAM
Lesson? What lesson?
TRICKSTER
This obsession to save Dean? The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other? Nothing good comes out of it. Just blood and pain. Dean’s your weakness. And the bad guys know it, too. It’s gonna be the death of you, Sam. Sometimes you just gotta let people go.
It took a few seasons, but it seems that Sam has learned this lesson; that sometimes the price of their love for one another is too high in the grand scheme of things and its become a price that he’s not willing to pay as evidenced by his not looking for Dean at the start of season 8. As he said, he thought Dean was dead and maybe that was better in the long run than making a risky deal for his return. Maybe Dean is now in the process of learning that lesson for himself too. His words to Timmy in Bad Boys may be part of his growing understanding of this idea and that maybe it even applies to him and Sam.
DEAN
She’s a ghost. Timmy, because she can’t move on, she’s going crazy. Okay? You got to let her go. You’ll be okay.
SAM gasps in pain.
DEAN (continues)
Listen to me. Sometimes you got to do what’s best for you, even if it’s gonna hurt the ones you love.
So, no I don’t think that Sam would take any opportunity to save Dean at the expense of others; I think he has already proven that he won’t, and his conversation with Death in 9×1 further proves that he doesn’t want himself saved at all costs either, that sometimes the price is just too high. Dean needs to learn this as well IMO, that his love for his brother does not mean he should let others suffer for it, which is what is happening now and frankly which is what always happens when these two go down that road. I think maybe JC is trying to break the brothers of their completely destructive co-dependency on one another and creating for them a better sense of independence and self and hopeful a new relationship a stronger one that understands that there are limits; lord knows they need it! For me, this won’t mean that they don’t love one another any more or won’t fight for one another with everything that they have, it just means that they won’t end up destroying the world or make earth shattering deals that puts everyone else at risk for the sake of the other any more. Death will have some meaning on this show once again perhaps. If that’s where JC is headed, what needs to happen now, IMO, is that the brothers need to say so. Once the dust settles from the current awfulness, Sam needs to say… “See? This is why I let you go last year, this right here…we have to stop doing this kind of thing.” If that happens (maybe I won’t hold my breath 😆 ) I could maybe even believe in the ‘not looking’ storyline and understand why they decided to write Sam in that way, and why they are writing Dean in the way that they are writing him now.
Crap! Messed up the quote part AGAIN. The first little paragraph is a quite of Geordiegirl1967’s post #68. 😳
Crap! Messed up the quote part AGAIN. The first little paragraph is a quite of Geordiegirl1967’s post #68. 😳
[quote name=”Geordiegirl1967″][quote name=”Sharon”]I honestly do not think in this situation angst is going to be avoided . This was not just anything ordinary Dean did to ‘save’ Sam or the fact Dean used the situation . And the fact Sam will have to process Kevin’s death by his hands.
As I stated before Sam should be allowed the reaction he needs in this and that reaction is done for Sam.[/quote]
I agree that Sam needs to have his reaction. But that reaction should be in character, and should show growth in their relationship not regression. How many times have they said to each other ‘no more secrets’, ‘all is forgiven’, ‘clean slate’ etc only for the writers to throw them back into the same, repetitive, stupid patterns of anger, storming off, coming back together but without ever resolving anything? Plus Sam is still feeling the guilt over not looking for Dean. Let’s leave to one side how utterly moronic, ooc, and unfair on the character of Sam that story was. It happened and he feels bad about it. So if ANY opportunity to save Dean came up now, regardless of the price, I feel Sam would take it. So he should be understanding of the position Dean was in in that hospital.
If we get a rinse and repeat of Amy, Benny, (even going back to Scarecrow) I will be extremely disappointed. Particularly as these days those kinds of excuses to have them apart for a while just look like transparent attempts to give the Js some time off rather than genuine dramatic, character-driven decisions.[/quote]
I understand you not wanting a lather, rinse, repeat of former reactions to Dean’s lies. The thing is TO ME Sam understanding why Dean did what he did IS lather, rinse, repeat. With Amy Sam was mad an entire week, then Dean told him he was being a bitch and Sam told Dean that Dean was right and end of story. Sam’s anger over Benny burned out pretty quickly as well. He didn’t leave Dean because of Benny, he left because Dean sent him a fake message from Amelia, something Dean didn’t apologize for and Sam waved off. Scarecrow wasn’t anger on Sam’s part so much as Sam wanting to take one course of action and Dean wanting to take another. For once, I would like Dean to be deal with long term ramifications of his actions. Sam understanding and forgiving just gives Dean license to say “Hey I beat myself up, so now you shouldn’t” and learn nothing.
I’m truly not expecting Sam to be angry in the ways he has been in the past. I honestly don’t know how Sam will react. Last season Sam was suicidal because he felt he always let Dean down and that Dean not only didn’t trust him, but turned to supernatural creatures above Sam, all while rejecting Sam because of his demon blood addiction and Sam turning to a supernatural creature. I hope Sam at least talks about the fact that Dean, yet again, decided that Sam can’t be trusted and that all those supportive words at the church (none of which said Dean trusted Sam or was sorry for the hurt he caused) meant less than nothing. How does Sam cope knowing his brother doesn’t trust him to make even the most basic decisions about his life? How does he feel about Dean being willing to turn him into an angel condom by tricking him, something even Lucifer didn’t do? Has Sam lessened depression been based on the fact that he thinks Dean finally believes in him? If that is the case, what does Sam feel about himself now? He gave up closing the Gates of Hell for Dean only for Dean to violate his wishes and then to continue the violation by not giving him a say in the matter. He may still be dying if Gad has done as poor a job as Vesta indicated. How does Sam react to the possibility that he is going to die because of the trial while not accomplishing a damned thing?
Then there is the case of Gad. If Dean finds out Sam can’t live without Gad’s possession will he help Sam evict him or will he go with letting Gad stay under Dean’s supervision? Demons can do a lot when a deal is made, but those deals usually involve souls and souls have power. Can a deal to let Crowley go give him enough power to expel Gad?
I have seen rumors that Sam and Dean will be apart. Is that because Sam leaves or is it because they can’t get Gad out and Gad is gadding about (bad joke, I know) with Sam’s body doing whatever Metatron wants in an attempt to gain respect?
The pattern I don’t want to see repeated is Sam forgives quickly and then Dean continues to beat Sam over the head with all of Sam’s failures. Dean needs to learn to give Sam autonomy and that taking that away from Sam has real consequences that he can’t just blow off.
[quote][quote]I honestly do not think in this situation angst is going to be avoided . This was not just anything ordinary Dean did to ‘save’ Sam or the fact Dean used the situation . And the fact Sam will have to process Kevin’s death by his hands.
As I stated before Sam should be allowed the reaction he needs in this and that reaction is done for Sam.[/quote]
I agree that Sam needs to have his reaction. But that reaction should be in character, and should show growth in their relationship not regression. How many times have they said to each other ‘no more secrets’, ‘all is forgiven’, ‘clean slate’ etc only for the writers to throw them back into the same, repetitive, stupid patterns of anger, storming off, coming back together but without ever resolving anything? Plus Sam is still feeling the guilt over not looking for Dean. Let’s leave to one side how utterly moronic, ooc, and unfair on the character of Sam that story was. It happened and he feels bad about it. So if ANY opportunity to save Dean came up now, regardless of the price, I feel Sam would take it. So he should be understanding of the position Dean was in in that hospital.
If we get a rinse and repeat of Amy, Benny, (even going back to Scarecrow) I will be extremely disappointed. Particularly as these days those kinds of excuses to have them apart for a while just look like transparent attempts to give the Js some time off rather than genuine dramatic, character-driven decisions.[/quote]
I understand you not wanting a lather, rinse, repeat of former reactions to Dean’s lies. The thing is TO ME Sam understanding why Dean did what he did IS lather, rinse, repeat. With Amy Sam was mad an entire week, then Dean told him he was being a bitch and Sam told Dean that Dean was right and end of story. Sam’s anger over Benny burned out pretty quickly as well. He didn’t leave Dean because of Benny, he left because Dean sent him a fake message from Amelia, something Dean didn’t apologize for and Sam waved off. Scarecrow wasn’t anger on Sam’s part so much as Sam wanting to take one course of action and Dean wanting to take another. For once, I would like Dean to be deal with long term ramifications of his actions. Sam understanding and forgiving just gives Dean license to say “Hey I beat myself up, so now you shouldn’t” and learn nothing.
I’m truly not expecting Sam to be angry in the ways he has been in the past. I honestly don’t know how Sam will react. Last season Sam was suicidal because he felt he always let Dean down and that Dean not only didn’t trust him, but turned to supernatural creatures above Sam, all while rejecting Sam because of his demon blood addiction and Sam turning to a supernatural creature. I hope Sam at least talks about the fact that Dean, yet again, decided that Sam can’t be trusted and that all those supportive words at the church (none of which said Dean trusted Sam or was sorry for the hurt he caused) meant less than nothing. How does Sam cope knowing his brother doesn’t trust him to make even the most basic decisions about his life? How does he feel about Dean being willing to turn him into an angel condom by tricking him, something even Lucifer didn’t do? Has Sam lessened depression been based on the fact that he thinks Dean finally believes in him? If that is the case, what does Sam feel about himself now? He gave up closing the Gates of Hell for Dean only for Dean to violate his wishes and then to continue the violation by not giving him a say in the matter. He may still be dying if Gad has done as poor a job as Vesta indicated. How does Sam react to the possibility that he is going to die because of the trial while not accomplishing a damned thing?
Then there is the case of Gad. If Dean finds out Sam can’t live without Gad’s possession will he help Sam evict him or will he go with letting Gad stay under Dean’s supervision? Demons can do a lot when a deal is made, but those deals usually involve souls and souls have power. Can a deal to let Crowley go give him enough power to expel Gad?
I have seen rumors that Sam and Dean will be apart. Is that because Sam leaves or is it because they can’t get Gad out and Gad is gadding about (bad joke, I know) with Sam’s body doing whatever Metatron wants in an attempt to gain respect?
The pattern I don’t want to see repeated is Sam forgives quickly and then Dean continues to beat Sam over the head with all of Sam’s failures. Dean needs to learn to give Sam autonomy and that taking that away from Sam has real consequences that he can’t just blow off.
I haven’t read all the comments yet but per usual, I’m of 2 minds about this. Oh the one hand I agree with Alice this season started off so well but most of the episodes have left me feeling meh. Not hating. Not loving. I loved the premiere and the mid season finale. But most of the others left me with a meh feeling. I loved moments but have no real desire to watch again. (I did really enjoy Bad Boys but they definitely should have left his age at 14 and made the monster John lied about hunting a Wendigo or pretty much anything but a ruguru-so it takes me out of the episode when I rewatched).
But positive first, I thought Dean tricking Sam into saying yes to Gadreel was amazing and really paid off in this last episode. I loved this for many reason. It’s a fantastic idea that to me fits completely with where the character was at a that moment. I love how squicky it was. Dean since S6 has been inevitably been always in the right. It would like they were taking his character some place dark and interesting and then the would pull back and reveal he was right all along. I don’t see how they can possible do that here. Kevin is dead and Sam is controlled by a rogue angel. And I can’t help feeling FINALLY. I like moral struggles. Plus it makes the story, character and show more interesting when it’s iffy if someone is doing the right thing. Or even more so when a character does something truly wrong and yet we can understand why even while seeing the bad path that they are on. Like Sam in S4. Or Cas in S6. And I like that it is making Dean question himself. Too often with Dean things been so black and white. Someone was good or bad. Wrong or right. In his others actions, but he held himself to that same high standard. I think Sam’s confession at the end of Sacrifice that he always let Dean down, made Dean start questioning things but doing this despite knowing that it wasn’t what Sam wanted, despite knowing that he was risking Sam’s control over himself and despite not knowing what all the consequences could be, he did it anyway. Because he couldn’t let his brother go. LOVED LOVED LOVED IT! And despite Kevin’s death (and the somewhat questionable technique of Cas getting grace) I loved this last episode. I thought it gave a HUGE payoff to the setup of the first episode.
Other things I loved this season (I’m sure I’m missing some but I have felt the huge desire to rewatch that I normally do-Plus BUSY): Loved Abbadon. Definitely ranks up there with Crowley as a good bad villain.
I liked them touching on the consequences of Sam’s action from S4-but there wasn’t really any payoff.
I liked the first few scenes of Cas as a human, especially him in the church talking to the woman about faith-LOVED THAT.
Love Charlie and thought the episode was fun-but not fantastic. I did really like the brief talk with Sam about his room.
Dean as a kid and his questioning hunting but once again choosing to return because of Sam.
Adored Jody Mills, always have, always will. and the sex talk was funny.
I think Jared as Gadreel and Sam has been amazing. And Jensen has been playing walking that worried guilty line fantastically. And that last scene just about killed me. And Mark Osric and Misha have been wonderful. I especially like the scenes between Sam, Kevin and Crowley.
I liked that the risk this year seemed to be thought out and planned with an end in mind(hopefully).
And since they are obviously not going to fix the Sam thing from last year I like that it was at least dropped, so I can TRY to pretend it never happened.
I haven’t read all the comments yet but per usual, I’m of 2 minds about this. Oh the one hand I agree with Alice this season started off so well but most of the episodes have left me feeling meh. Not hating. Not loving. I loved the premiere and the mid season finale. But most of the others left me with a meh feeling. I loved moments but have no real desire to watch again. (I did really enjoy Bad Boys but they definitely should have left his age at 14 and made the monster John lied about hunting a Wendigo or pretty much anything but a ruguru-so it takes me out of the episode when I rewatched).
But positive first, I thought Dean tricking Sam into saying yes to Gadreel was amazing and really paid off in this last episode. I loved this for many reason. It’s a fantastic idea that to me fits completely with where the character was at a that moment. I love how squicky it was. Dean since S6 has been inevitably been always in the right. It would like they were taking his character some place dark and interesting and then the would pull back and reveal he was right all along. I don’t see how they can possible do that here. Kevin is dead and Sam is controlled by a rogue angel. And I can’t help feeling FINALLY. I like moral struggles. Plus it makes the story, character and show more interesting when it’s iffy if someone is doing the right thing. Or even more so when a character does something truly wrong and yet we can understand why even while seeing the bad path that they are on. Like Sam in S4. Or Cas in S6. And I like that it is making Dean question himself. Too often with Dean things been so black and white. Someone was good or bad. Wrong or right. In his others actions, but he held himself to that same high standard. I think Sam’s confession at the end of Sacrifice that he always let Dean down, made Dean start questioning things but doing this despite knowing that it wasn’t what Sam wanted, despite knowing that he was risking Sam’s control over himself and despite not knowing what all the consequences could be, he did it anyway. Because he couldn’t let his brother go. LOVED LOVED LOVED IT! And despite Kevin’s death (and the somewhat questionable technique of Cas getting grace) I loved this last episode. I thought it gave a HUGE payoff to the setup of the first episode.
Other things I loved this season (I’m sure I’m missing some but I have felt the huge desire to rewatch that I normally do-Plus BUSY): Loved Abbadon. Definitely ranks up there with Crowley as a good bad villain.
I liked them touching on the consequences of Sam’s action from S4-but there wasn’t really any payoff.
I liked the first few scenes of Cas as a human, especially him in the church talking to the woman about faith-LOVED THAT.
Love Charlie and thought the episode was fun-but not fantastic. I did really like the brief talk with Sam about his room.
Dean as a kid and his questioning hunting but once again choosing to return because of Sam.
Adored Jody Mills, always have, always will. and the sex talk was funny.
I think Jared as Gadreel and Sam has been amazing. And Jensen has been playing walking that worried guilty line fantastically. And that last scene just about killed me. And Mark Osric and Misha have been wonderful. I especially like the scenes between Sam, Kevin and Crowley.
I liked that the risk this year seemed to be thought out and planned with an end in mind(hopefully).
And since they are obviously not going to fix the Sam thing from last year I like that it was at least dropped, so I can TRY to pretend it never happened.
[quote name=”E”][quote name=”Geordiegirl1967″][quote .[/quote]
Plus Sam is still feeling the guilt over not looking for Dean. Let’s leave to one side how utterly moronic, ooc, and unfair on the character of Sam that story was. It happened and he feels bad about it. So if ANY opportunity to save Dean came up now, regardless of the price, I feel Sam would take it. So he should be understanding of the position Dean was in in that hospital. [/quote]
Actually, I have been formulating a completely different take on this point lately. I was incredibly vocal at the start of season 8 about how OOC I felt the ‘Not Looking’ story line was, how much I hated it, how unsympathetic it made Sam look etc, etc… but now, in light of the events of this season… the ‘Saving Sam at any and all costs’ story we are getting this year and how awful the consequences of this decision have turned out to be, I am beginning to see where Carver is going with the whole thing.. or at least where I think he’s going. This saving each other at all costs, as death has said on any number of occasions, “disturbs the natural order” and essentially creates chaos in it’s wake. I am wondering if the boys are getting schooled, for lack of a better term. They shouldn’t be saving each other at any and all costs, it’s destructive, it disturbs the natural order, it creates chaos and other people suffer. All the way back in season 3’s Mystery Spot we got this dialog exchange between the trickster and Sam: (Written by JC BTW… :-* )
TRICKSTER
True. But that don’t mean I should. Sam, there’s a lesson here that I’ve been trying to drill into that freakish Cro-Magnon skull of yours.
SAM
Lesson? What lesson?
TRICKSTER
This obsession to save Dean? The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other? Nothing good comes out of it. Just blood and pain. Dean’s your weakness. And the bad guys know it, too. It’s gonna be the death of you, Sam. Sometimes you just gotta let people go.
It took a few seasons, but it seems that Sam has learned this lesson; that sometimes the price of their love for one another is too high in the grand scheme of things and its become a price that he’s not willing to pay as evidenced by his not looking for Dean at the start of season 8. As he said, he thought Dean was dead and maybe that was better in the long run than making a risky deal for his return. Maybe Dean is now in the process of learning that lesson for himself too. His words to Timmy in Bad Boys may be part of his growing understanding of this idea and that maybe it even applies to him and Sam.
DEAN
She’s a ghost. Timmy, because she can’t move on, she’s going crazy. Okay? You got to let her go. You’ll be okay.
SAM gasps in pain.
DEAN (continues)
Listen to me. Sometimes you got to do what’s best for you, even if it’s gonna hurt the ones you love.
So, no I don’t think that Sam would take any opportunity to save Dean at the expense of others; I think he has already proven that he won’t, and his conversation with Death in 9×1 further proves that he doesn’t want himself saved at all costs either, that sometimes the price is just too high. Dean needs to learn this as well IMO, that his love for his brother does not mean he should let others suffer for it, which is what is happening now and frankly which is what always happens when these two go down that road. I think maybe JC is trying to break the brothers of their completely destructive co-dependency on one another and creating for them a better sense of independence and self and hopeful a new relationship a stronger one that understands that there are limits; lord knows they need it! For me, this won’t mean that they don’t love one another any more or won’t fight for one another with everything that they have, it just means that they won’t end up destroying the world or make earth shattering deals that puts everyone else at risk for the sake of the other any more. Death will have some meaning on this show once again perhaps. If that’s where JC is headed, what needs to happen now, IMO, is that the brothers need to say so. Once the dust settles from the current awfulness, Sam needs to say… “See? This is why I let you go last year, this right here…we have to stop doing this kind of thing.” If that happens (maybe I won’t hold my breath 😆 ) I could maybe even believe in the ‘not looking’ storyline and understand why they decided to write Sam in that way, and why they are writing Dean in the way that they are writing him now.[/quote]
Thank you E This has been screaming in my head since the beginning of S8 This is why Sam chose to let Dean go. I do believe that JC is trying to break the cycle of sacrificing all for each other. If Gad hadn’t killed Kevin I think Sam would have bought the store room confession. But now-yikes-I can’t imagine how they are going to resolve this.
[quote][quote][quote]
Plus Sam is still feeling the guilt over not looking for Dean. Let’s leave to one side how utterly moronic, ooc, and unfair on the character of Sam that story was. It happened and he feels bad about it. So if ANY opportunity to save Dean came up now, regardless of the price, I feel Sam would take it. So he should be understanding of the position Dean was in in that hospital. [/quote]
Actually, I have been formulating a completely different take on this point lately. I was incredibly vocal at the start of season 8 about how OOC I felt the ‘Not Looking’ story line was, how much I hated it, how unsympathetic it made Sam look etc, etc… but now, in light of the events of this season… the ‘Saving Sam at any and all costs’ story we are getting this year and how awful the consequences of this decision have turned out to be, I am beginning to see where Carver is going with the whole thing.. or at least where I think he’s going. This saving each other at all costs, as death has said on any number of occasions, “disturbs the natural order” and essentially creates chaos in it’s wake. I am wondering if the boys are getting schooled, for lack of a better term. They shouldn’t be saving each other at any and all costs, it’s destructive, it disturbs the natural order, it creates chaos and other people suffer. All the way back in season 3’s Mystery Spot we got this dialog exchange between the trickster and Sam: (Written by JC BTW… :-* )
TRICKSTER
True. But that don’t mean I should. Sam, there’s a lesson here that I’ve been trying to drill into that freakish Cro-Magnon skull of yours.
SAM
Lesson? What lesson?
TRICKSTER
This obsession to save Dean? The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other? Nothing good comes out of it. Just blood and pain. Dean’s your weakness. And the bad guys know it, too. It’s gonna be the death of you, Sam. Sometimes you just gotta let people go.
It took a few seasons, but it seems that Sam has learned this lesson; that sometimes the price of their love for one another is too high in the grand scheme of things and its become a price that he’s not willing to pay as evidenced by his not looking for Dean at the start of season 8. As he said, he thought Dean was dead and maybe that was better in the long run than making a risky deal for his return. Maybe Dean is now in the process of learning that lesson for himself too. His words to Timmy in Bad Boys may be part of his growing understanding of this idea and that maybe it even applies to him and Sam.
DEAN
She’s a ghost. Timmy, because she can’t move on, she’s going crazy. Okay? You got to let her go. You’ll be okay.
SAM gasps in pain.
DEAN (continues)
Listen to me. Sometimes you got to do what’s best for you, even if it’s gonna hurt the ones you love.
So, no I don’t think that Sam would take any opportunity to save Dean at the expense of others; I think he has already proven that he won’t, and his conversation with Death in 9×1 further proves that he doesn’t want himself saved at all costs either, that sometimes the price is just too high. Dean needs to learn this as well IMO, that his love for his brother does not mean he should let others suffer for it, which is what is happening now and frankly which is what always happens when these two go down that road. I think maybe JC is trying to break the brothers of their completely destructive co-dependency on one another and creating for them a better sense of independence and self and hopeful a new relationship a stronger one that understands that there are limits; lord knows they need it! For me, this won’t mean that they don’t love one another any more or won’t fight for one another with everything that they have, it just means that they won’t end up destroying the world or make earth shattering deals that puts everyone else at risk for the sake of the other any more. Death will have some meaning on this show once again perhaps. If that’s where JC is headed, what needs to happen now, IMO, is that the brothers need to say so. Once the dust settles from the current awfulness, Sam needs to say… “See? This is why I let you go last year, this right here…we have to stop doing this kind of thing.” If that happens (maybe I won’t hold my breath 😆 ) I could maybe even believe in the ‘not looking’ storyline and understand why they decided to write Sam in that way, and why they are writing Dean in the way that they are writing him now.[/quote]
Thank you E This has been screaming in my head since the beginning of S8 This is why Sam chose to let Dean go. I do believe that JC is trying to break the cycle of sacrificing all for each other. If Gad hadn’t killed Kevin I think Sam would have bought the store room confession. But now-yikes-I can’t imagine how they are going to resolve this.
@ #69 E, what an interesting take on things. I would be happy if that’s what Carver’s planning but I won’t be upset if it’s not. Wouldn’t that mean that Dean shouldn’t have stopped Sam from closing the gates of hell and/or Sam shouldn’t have listened to Dean and closed them anyway? I would sell my soul to Crowley for the brotherly dialogue in Sacrifice. 🙂 I love all the grey area in this show particularly since fans tend to have widely varying opinions about it. You might be ok with Dean trying to save Sam at all cost but also ok with Sam not looking for Dean. Or not like either story line. Or be upset by one and love the other story line. They shouldn’t save each other at all costs but we may have different ideas about where to draw the line.
@ #69 E, what an interesting take on things. I would be happy if that’s what Carver’s planning but I won’t be upset if it’s not. Wouldn’t that mean that Dean shouldn’t have stopped Sam from closing the gates of hell and/or Sam shouldn’t have listened to Dean and closed them anyway? I would sell my soul to Crowley for the brotherly dialogue in Sacrifice. 🙂 I love all the grey area in this show particularly since fans tend to have widely varying opinions about it. You might be ok with Dean trying to save Sam at all cost but also ok with Sam not looking for Dean. Or not like either story line. Or be upset by one and love the other story line. They shouldn’t save each other at all costs but we may have different ideas about where to draw the line.
Now the more negative post.
My view of the show is completely different from that of Ripley2win, but I do feel the same frustrations as with the show, especially the last 2 seasons. I though I’m strongly opposed to tweeting angry messages to the writers and crew. As I’ve said before there is not enough room to do much more than emote a singular idea. That is not particularly helpful to anyone. But if the staff (esp. writers) only hear the wonderful comments or negative emoting than what is going to be their impression of fans satisfaction of a show I deeply love. Don’t the reasonable fans who aren’t exactly happy deserve to have their voice heard? Perhaps not. I’m honestly not sure. I think back to the last 3 seasons of X-Files (and the 2nd movie for that matter). There were still so many things I loved and episodes I adored but I they started to let things slip more and more. Sure the first 5 season had bad episodes. But it always felt like a one-off not a pattern. Starting even in S6 there were a couple episode that felt like everyone just wasn’t as invested. Even more with S7. Don’t even get me started on S9.
The thing with SPN I just never really got that impression before S7 but especially S8. And even more so this year. Sure they had bad episodes every season. It was just random episodes and nothing in those “bad” episodes usually reflected on the quality as a whole. But now it just seems like they just “gave up” on certain aspects of the show
these last 2 years. It seems they decided that canon was becoming too complicated and messing with the story they wanted to tell so they just ignored it and created new aspects to creatures or new aspect to the characters. Which might be fine if they actually bother to sell those additions. But they just present like this is the way it is. And on a new show that isn’t a problem. The writers are setting the rules. But on an established show with characters and episodes that have been (over)analyzed and discussed and discussed again. Or with a fan base that has seen episodes 50 times and knows that Dean didn’t know what a ruguru was in S4, but now he and his father use it as an excuse when he was 16 (though I will continue to think of him as 14 because that works SOOO much better). Not one person cast or crew caught that? It was such a small thing but it will bother me and take me out of the scene every single time I watch it. At least that was just one scene. The Reaper lore butchering pretty much ruins that whole episode (or all the past reaper episodes because the 2 don’t match.). But by far the worst offense is the not bothering to explain Sam’s thought process last year. It was just like they said been there/done that with the Dean returning angst thing. So let’s skip. Who cares that the brother’s bond is the heart of the heart of show -not just in my opinion but in what the writer’s themselves have said. That it in some ways irreparably damages Sam’s character. And for that matter Dean’s, now he not part of an unyielding dual bond. He’s this massively needy guy who completely dependent on a guy that can easily move past his death. Which they’ve proven once again this year. Which I will give them credit that Dean not being able to let go is seem to be an actual plot line. And though I’m not sure I’m going to like where it’s going. It is at least explained and being picked up. Unlike Sam’s last year. Where nothing was given, let alone any explanatory scenes. It feels like the writers don’t REALLY respect the show. Like it. Like writing for it-sure. But actually respect it and take it seriously-no.
Now the more negative post.
My view of the show is completely different from that of Ripley2win, but I do feel the same frustrations as with the show, especially the last 2 seasons. I though I’m strongly opposed to tweeting angry messages to the writers and crew. As I’ve said before there is not enough room to do much more than emote a singular idea. That is not particularly helpful to anyone. But if the staff (esp. writers) only hear the wonderful comments or negative emoting than what is going to be their impression of fans satisfaction of a show I deeply love. Don’t the reasonable fans who aren’t exactly happy deserve to have their voice heard? Perhaps not. I’m honestly not sure. I think back to the last 3 seasons of X-Files (and the 2nd movie for that matter). There were still so many things I loved and episodes I adored but I they started to let things slip more and more. Sure the first 5 season had bad episodes. But it always felt like a one-off not a pattern. Starting even in S6 there were a couple episode that felt like everyone just wasn’t as invested. Even more with S7. Don’t even get me started on S9.
The thing with SPN I just never really got that impression before S7 but especially S8. And even more so this year. Sure they had bad episodes every season. It was just random episodes and nothing in those “bad” episodes usually reflected on the quality as a whole. But now it just seems like they just “gave up” on certain aspects of the show
these last 2 years. It seems they decided that canon was becoming too complicated and messing with the story they wanted to tell so they just ignored it and created new aspects to creatures or new aspect to the characters. Which might be fine if they actually bother to sell those additions. But they just present like this is the way it is. And on a new show that isn’t a problem. The writers are setting the rules. But on an established show with characters and episodes that have been (over)analyzed and discussed and discussed again. Or with a fan base that has seen episodes 50 times and knows that Dean didn’t know what a ruguru was in S4, but now he and his father use it as an excuse when he was 16 (though I will continue to think of him as 14 because that works SOOO much better). Not one person cast or crew caught that? It was such a small thing but it will bother me and take me out of the scene every single time I watch it. At least that was just one scene. The Reaper lore butchering pretty much ruins that whole episode (or all the past reaper episodes because the 2 don’t match.). But by far the worst offense is the not bothering to explain Sam’s thought process last year. It was just like they said been there/done that with the Dean returning angst thing. So let’s skip. Who cares that the brother’s bond is the heart of the heart of show -not just in my opinion but in what the writer’s themselves have said. That it in some ways irreparably damages Sam’s character. And for that matter Dean’s, now he not part of an unyielding dual bond. He’s this massively needy guy who completely dependent on a guy that can easily move past his death. Which they’ve proven once again this year. Which I will give them credit that Dean not being able to let go is seem to be an actual plot line. And though I’m not sure I’m going to like where it’s going. It is at least explained and being picked up. Unlike Sam’s last year. Where nothing was given, let alone any explanatory scenes. It feels like the writers don’t REALLY respect the show. Like it. Like writing for it-sure. But actually respect it and take it seriously-no.
I remember having a debate with someone on the Bi or bromance thread where the other poster said. They should just make Dean bi because it would get ratings and be groundbreaking and because of the show was in its 8th year so what did it matter that it didn’t fit the character or the show in many people opinions. This feels like the attitude that they are taking sometimes -that what does it matter -it’s not Shakespeare. Which of course it’s not but it’s also not The Love Boat or (inserted bad cheesy TV here). It on track to be one of those shows that only gets more popular when it goes off the air. But how a show ends matter and recently I get the impression I’m going to be “apologizing” for the last seasons of SPN the same I have for X-Files anytime I recommend it to someone. Like the Dog Dean Afternoon, instead really selling the premise within the story, they put a all the classic out-there episodes up that had ZERO to do with this episode. Basically saying-get ready for a [i]wacky[/i] one, folks. So using its past triumphs to sell this one. They didn’t do that before. Yes if it related they would show the previous ones. Such as on The Real Ghostbusters they showed The Monster at the End of the Book. The great. But what does the giant teddybear and Changing Channels have to do with this episode-nothing. So to me it just look like they were coming out and saying we couldn’t be bothered to ACTUAL sell this within the episode. But remember you bought that other stuff-now buy this, ‘kay. So that bothers me ten times more than the Bugs or Route 666 because yes they didn’t work but at least I didn’t feel like they were using my loyalty against me and they everyone was actually trying.
I will say I never get the impression Jared or Jensen or really most of the ACTORS are half-assing it or that they don’t respect the show. And that goes for all the crew up in Canada if anything the quality of most of the work has gotten better, but (well I do think SOMEONE ought to have caught that ruguru thing it would have been so easy to fix, they need fangirl onset to catch this stuff!) But the writers….
I’m hoping that it’s one of those seasons that looks better on rewatches-season 8 doesn’t even have that hope.
I remember having a debate with someone on the Bi or bromance thread where the other poster said. They should just make Dean bi because it would get ratings and be groundbreaking and because of the show was in its 8th year so what did it matter that it didn’t fit the character or the show in many people opinions. This feels like the attitude that they are taking sometimes -that what does it matter -it’s not Shakespeare. Which of course it’s not but it’s also not The Love Boat or (inserted bad cheesy TV here). It on track to be one of those shows that only gets more popular when it goes off the air. But how a show ends matter and recently I get the impression I’m going to be “apologizing” for the last seasons of SPN the same I have for X-Files anytime I recommend it to someone. Like the Dog Dean Afternoon, instead really selling the premise within the story, they put a all the classic out-there episodes up that had ZERO to do with this episode. Basically saying-get ready for a [i]wacky[/i] one, folks. So using its past triumphs to sell this one. They didn’t do that before. Yes if it related they would show the previous ones. Such as on The Real Ghostbusters they showed The Monster at the End of the Book. The great. But what does the giant teddybear and Changing Channels have to do with this episode-nothing. So to me it just look like they were coming out and saying we couldn’t be bothered to ACTUAL sell this within the episode. But remember you bought that other stuff-now buy this, ‘kay. So that bothers me ten times more than the Bugs or Route 666 because yes they didn’t work but at least I didn’t feel like they were using my loyalty against me and they everyone was actually trying.
I will say I never get the impression Jared or Jensen or really most of the ACTORS are half-assing it or that they don’t respect the show. And that goes for all the crew up in Canada if anything the quality of most of the work has gotten better, but (well I do think SOMEONE ought to have caught that ruguru thing it would have been so easy to fix, they need fangirl onset to catch this stuff!) But the writers….
I’m hoping that it’s one of those seasons that looks better on rewatches-season 8 doesn’t even have that hope.
Cheryl and E, First HI!, I will only forgive them for the Sam non-POV during that missing time if they give him one. If it turns out that they delayed showing us how Sam came to his decision that Dean was dead and not to look further and not to trying any extraordinary means of finding out, and end up doing now in flashbacks or something, then I will send them a truckload of mea culpa’s but if they just do something like. Sam see saying,”See Dean this is why I didn’t look for you.” I will want to strangle them. Because they’ve shown us episode after episode of Dean struggling with his decision and even. But we got jack with Sam and to me that was the much more incomprehensible one.
And I’m not sure about the healthy non-codependent relationship either. It sounds good in theory but I’m afraid it won’t be the show I signed for and/or be incredible dull. Their co-dependency has brought some of the best moments of the show so I’m a very nervous about losing it but if it’s done well I would prefer that to stagnation of character growth, I guess. Though, I’ll admit, I don’t have much faith in there ability to pull it off and keep the show on track, I still feel very badly burned after last season.
Cheryl and E, First HI!, I will only forgive them for the Sam non-POV during that missing time if they give him one. If it turns out that they delayed showing us how Sam came to his decision that Dean was dead and not to look further and not to trying any extraordinary means of finding out, and end up doing now in flashbacks or something, then I will send them a truckload of mea culpa’s but if they just do something like. Sam see saying,”See Dean this is why I didn’t look for you.” I will want to strangle them. Because they’ve shown us episode after episode of Dean struggling with his decision and even. But we got jack with Sam and to me that was the much more incomprehensible one.
And I’m not sure about the healthy non-codependent relationship either. It sounds good in theory but I’m afraid it won’t be the show I signed for and/or be incredible dull. Their co-dependency has brought some of the best moments of the show so I’m a very nervous about losing it but if it’s done well I would prefer that to stagnation of character growth, I guess. Though, I’ll admit, I don’t have much faith in there ability to pull it off and keep the show on track, I still feel very badly burned after last season.
[quote name=”KELLY”]
And I’m not sure about the healthy non-codependent relationship either. It sounds good in theory but I’m afraid it won’t be the show I signed for and/or be incredible dull. Their co-dependency has brought some of the best moments of the show so I’m a very nervous about losing it ….. I still feel very badly burned after last season.[/quote]
I totally agree. I have no interest in them hammering home a message that they shouldn’t save each other at all costs. That co-dependency has always been the heart of the show, and it saved the world in s5. I don’t want them learning the lesson that Sam was right in s8, and Dean was wrong in s9. IMO it is completely the other way around.
[quote]
And I’m not sure about the healthy non-codependent relationship either. It sounds good in theory but I’m afraid it won’t be the show I signed for and/or be incredible dull. Their co-dependency has brought some of the best moments of the show so I’m a very nervous about losing it ….. I still feel very badly burned after last season.[/quote]
I totally agree. I have no interest in them hammering home a message that they shouldn’t save each other at all costs. That co-dependency has always been the heart of the show, and it saved the world in s5. I don’t want them learning the lesson that Sam was right in s8, and Dean was wrong in s9. IMO it is completely the other way around.
@66 I disagree. I don’t think that, if the opportunity arises, Sam would do whatever it takes to save Dean, regardless of the price. That sort of thinking is what has brought them and the world to the brink time and again. The promise that Sam and Dean made to not look for each other, regardless of how illogical some feel it is, regardless of whether or not Dean meant it, was made by them both for a reason; to stop the destructive pattern of behaviour they were both guilty of.
That Sam feels guilt for not looking for Dean is irrelevant. That was exacerbated by Dean’s reaction and because, at no stage was he allowed to justify his decision so that Dean could understand it. As a result of that, Sam’s decision was worth no more than how much Dean considered Sam let him down. I also certainly do not think that, if a similar situation arises (ie he thinks Dean is dead), Sam should do whatever he can to save him from here on in, regardless of the price because Sam doesn’t work that way. He knows how these things work; the more they risk to save each other the more it costs everyone else. Dean knows it too, that’s why the promise was made, and it’s why Dean’s reaction in season 8 was so hard to take because it showed no acceptance in why Sam did what he did, despite sharing a similar mindset when the promise was made.
The thing is, if Sam did look for Dean and managed to bring him back and it did end up costing lives, then what are the odds Dean would be telling Sam that he shouldn’t have brought him back, that he should have kept the promise, that he should have listened to Dean. We saw how Dean reacted back in season 4 when he thought Sam made a deal to bring him back so why should we assume he’d react differently if Sam did similar now? I feel Sam really needs to forget about doing what he thinks Dean wants him to do and do what he (Sam) thinks is the right thing to do.
This is where the contrast between what Sam did at the end of 7.23 and what Dean did in 9.01 comes into play. Sam has always been aware that it is often necessary to sacrifice small in order to win big. He knows that you have to (sometimes deliberately) lose a battle or two in order to win a war or that you can win by just not fighting. We have seen this back over the years, ie when he considered sacrificing Nancy in [i]Jus in Bello[/i], when he killed the possessed nurse in [i]Lucifer Rising[/i] and when he made the deal with Death in 9.01 to ensure that the damning mistakes of the past would not be repeated again.
Like it or not, what Sam did (or did not do) when Dean was in Purgatory was in the best interests of the masses and is this not what is important? Sam thought Dean was dead, so he didn’t try to bring him back. The consequence of that was… there were none. Oh, Dean was pissed off at Sam but that’s nothing new. However, there were no innocent lives lost, no second Apocalypse, no angels falling, no things worse off than they were before. The same can’t be said for Dean, the consequences of whose decisions are bad and getting worse.
Sam will be able to relate to the position that Dean was in (he has been there on more than one occasion), and he will understand why Dean did what he did, (because that is what Sam does; understand). However, I certainly hope that he will be allowed to express his feelings of anger or disappointment or hurt or betrayal before it is swept aside under the inevitable tidal wave of ‘I did what I had to do’.
@66 I disagree. I don’t think that, if the opportunity arises, Sam would do whatever it takes to save Dean, regardless of the price. That sort of thinking is what has brought them and the world to the brink time and again. The promise that Sam and Dean made to not look for each other, regardless of how illogical some feel it is, regardless of whether or not Dean meant it, was made by them both for a reason; to stop the destructive pattern of behaviour they were both guilty of.
That Sam feels guilt for not looking for Dean is irrelevant. That was exacerbated by Dean’s reaction and because, at no stage was he allowed to justify his decision so that Dean could understand it. As a result of that, Sam’s decision was worth no more than how much Dean considered Sam let him down. I also certainly do not think that, if a similar situation arises (ie he thinks Dean is dead), Sam should do whatever he can to save him from here on in, regardless of the price because Sam doesn’t work that way. He knows how these things work; the more they risk to save each other the more it costs everyone else. Dean knows it too, that’s why the promise was made, and it’s why Dean’s reaction in season 8 was so hard to take because it showed no acceptance in why Sam did what he did, despite sharing a similar mindset when the promise was made.
The thing is, if Sam did look for Dean and managed to bring him back and it did end up costing lives, then what are the odds Dean would be telling Sam that he shouldn’t have brought him back, that he should have kept the promise, that he should have listened to Dean. We saw how Dean reacted back in season 4 when he thought Sam made a deal to bring him back so why should we assume he’d react differently if Sam did similar now? I feel Sam really needs to forget about doing what he thinks Dean wants him to do and do what he (Sam) thinks is the right thing to do.
This is where the contrast between what Sam did at the end of 7.23 and what Dean did in 9.01 comes into play. Sam has always been aware that it is often necessary to sacrifice small in order to win big. He knows that you have to (sometimes deliberately) lose a battle or two in order to win a war or that you can win by just not fighting. We have seen this back over the years, ie when he considered sacrificing Nancy in [i]Jus in Bello[/i], when he killed the possessed nurse in [i]Lucifer Rising[/i] and when he made the deal with Death in 9.01 to ensure that the damning mistakes of the past would not be repeated again.
Like it or not, what Sam did (or did not do) when Dean was in Purgatory was in the best interests of the masses and is this not what is important? Sam thought Dean was dead, so he didn’t try to bring him back. The consequence of that was… there were none. Oh, Dean was pissed off at Sam but that’s nothing new. However, there were no innocent lives lost, no second Apocalypse, no angels falling, no things worse off than they were before. The same can’t be said for Dean, the consequences of whose decisions are bad and getting worse.
Sam will be able to relate to the position that Dean was in (he has been there on more than one occasion), and he will understand why Dean did what he did, (because that is what Sam does; understand). However, I certainly hope that he will be allowed to express his feelings of anger or disappointment or hurt or betrayal before it is swept aside under the inevitable tidal wave of ‘I did what I had to do’.
[quote name=”mary9930″]@ #69 E, what an interesting take on things. I would be happy if that’s what Carver’s planning but I won’t be upset if it’s not. Wouldn’t that mean that Dean shouldn’t have stopped Sam from closing the gates of hell and/or Sam shouldn’t have listened to Dean and closed them anyway? I would sell my soul to Crowley for the brotherly dialogue in Sacrifice. 🙂 I love all the grey area in this show particularly since fans tend to have widely varying opinions about it. You might be ok with Dean trying to save Sam at all cost but also ok with Sam not looking for Dean. Or not like either story line. Or be upset by one and love the other story line. They shouldn’t save each other at all costs but we may have different ideas about where to draw the line.[/quote]
Hi mary9930, yeah, I guess that DOES mean that Dean should have let Sam go. But I don’t think that means Sam would have died though. That’s the basic argument for this scenario… if Dean hadn’t have done what he did Sam would be dead and there would be no show… etc.. but for me, that’s not what would have happened. In season 8, Sam decided to let Dean go, and look, he’s not dead so I have every reason to believe that if Dean had let Sam go in this season something could have been figured out to save him without putting the rest of the world, or at least cute little profits who were like the lamb to slaughter, at risk. I mean, it’s a show… they can do what they want and if they aren’t’ ready for either guy to die then they won’t not do it no matter what scenario they set up. They won’t kill off either guy until he end (if even then) but the lesson to be learned is still there, a lesson of sacrifice that we’ve been hearing about since the start of season 2 and one that predates the show in canon, and Dean still needs to learn that lesson, and I think (unless they do something drastic), that Sam already has. I’m just speculating, but thought that this is an opportunity for TPTB to wrap last years events into this years events in a satisfying way. I think it was nappi815 or njspnfan who speculated about there being a three year arc and it just got me thinking…. 😆
[quote]@ #69 E, what an interesting take on things. I would be happy if that’s what Carver’s planning but I won’t be upset if it’s not. Wouldn’t that mean that Dean shouldn’t have stopped Sam from closing the gates of hell and/or Sam shouldn’t have listened to Dean and closed them anyway? I would sell my soul to Crowley for the brotherly dialogue in Sacrifice. 🙂 I love all the grey area in this show particularly since fans tend to have widely varying opinions about it. You might be ok with Dean trying to save Sam at all cost but also ok with Sam not looking for Dean. Or not like either story line. Or be upset by one and love the other story line. They shouldn’t save each other at all costs but we may have different ideas about where to draw the line.[/quote]
Hi mary9930, yeah, I guess that DOES mean that Dean should have let Sam go. But I don’t think that means Sam would have died though. That’s the basic argument for this scenario… if Dean hadn’t have done what he did Sam would be dead and there would be no show… etc.. but for me, that’s not what would have happened. In season 8, Sam decided to let Dean go, and look, he’s not dead so I have every reason to believe that if Dean had let Sam go in this season something could have been figured out to save him without putting the rest of the world, or at least cute little profits who were like the lamb to slaughter, at risk. I mean, it’s a show… they can do what they want and if they aren’t’ ready for either guy to die then they won’t not do it no matter what scenario they set up. They won’t kill off either guy until he end (if even then) but the lesson to be learned is still there, a lesson of sacrifice that we’ve been hearing about since the start of season 2 and one that predates the show in canon, and Dean still needs to learn that lesson, and I think (unless they do something drastic), that Sam already has. I’m just speculating, but thought that this is an opportunity for TPTB to wrap last years events into this years events in a satisfying way. I think it was nappi815 or njspnfan who speculated about there being a three year arc and it just got me thinking…. 😆
[quote name=”KELLY”]Cheryl and E, First HI!, I will only forgive them for the Sam non-POV during that missing time if they give him one. If it turns out that they delayed showing us how Sam came to his decision that Dean was dead and not to look further and not to trying any extraordinary means of finding out, and end up doing now in flashbacks or something, then I will send them a truckload of mea culpa’s but if they just do something like. Sam see saying,”See Dean this is why I didn’t look for you.” I will want to strangle them. Because they’ve shown us episode after episode of Dean struggling with his decision and even. But we got jack with Sam and to me that was the much more incomprehensible one.
And I’m not sure about the healthy non-codependent relationship either. It sounds good in theory but I’m afraid it won’t be the show I signed for and/or be incredible dull. Their co-dependency has brought some of the best moments of the show so I’m a very nervous about losing it but if it’s done well I would prefer that to stagnation of character growth, I guess. Though, I’ll admit, I don’t have much faith in there ability to pull it off and keep the show on track, I still feel very badly burned after last season.[/quote]
Kelly!!! Hi! Long time!
Yes, I can understand your reservations about the season and the brother’s relationship… absolutely. But, something has to change. Back in the early seasons, the brother’s fighting for one another didn’t wreak so much havoc on the rest of the world; that began at the end of season 3 when Dean’s demon deal came to fruition, or more accurately in season 4, when Sam’s actions based on what happened in season 3 let Lucifer loose on the world. Since then, every time they have sacrificed themselves for one another it has had devastating repercussions. At that time, Sam in particular, realized that the decisions they were making were having lasting damaging repercussions outside the sphere of just the brothers and that it needs to stop. Despite how much I love their brotherhood, that needs to change IMO or the Family Business has no meaning. They will still love one another, fight for one another, do everything in their power to save one another, but they won’t sacrifice for one another any more by making shady deals. And I guess I am one fan who does want to find out that Sam was right in season 8 and Dean was wrong in season 9. What he’s done is understandable but wrong. Why is Kevin’s life worth less than Sam’s? It has come down to that. And Dean didn’t sacrifice himself for Sam he sacrificed Sam for Sam and that is wrong on so many levels and I feel that yes, Dean needs to see that. They can still love one another, be soul mates without jeopardizing everyone around them with the repercussion of their actions. Its not all or nothing, its just different. We can’t go back to the way they were at the start of the show, because they aren’t those people any more, that’s life.
I’m with you on the Sam POV though, absolutely. And would I like more than “see this is why I didn’t look for you” well, of course I would, that was just a quick comment for the purposes of getting my point across, but the idea behind it is what I am driving at. There is a golden opportunity for the PTB to flesh out lots of what Sam was thinking at the start of season 8, and finally Dean might be in a better position to hear it because of recent events and a dead profit. There is a great opportunity to really move things forward (whether they do it or not remains to be seen) and I am pretty happy currently with the way things are going!
[quote]Cheryl and E, First HI!, I will only forgive them for the Sam non-POV during that missing time if they give him one. If it turns out that they delayed showing us how Sam came to his decision that Dean was dead and not to look further and not to trying any extraordinary means of finding out, and end up doing now in flashbacks or something, then I will send them a truckload of mea culpa’s but if they just do something like. Sam see saying,”See Dean this is why I didn’t look for you.” I will want to strangle them. Because they’ve shown us episode after episode of Dean struggling with his decision and even. But we got jack with Sam and to me that was the much more incomprehensible one.
And I’m not sure about the healthy non-codependent relationship either. It sounds good in theory but I’m afraid it won’t be the show I signed for and/or be incredible dull. Their co-dependency has brought some of the best moments of the show so I’m a very nervous about losing it but if it’s done well I would prefer that to stagnation of character growth, I guess. Though, I’ll admit, I don’t have much faith in there ability to pull it off and keep the show on track, I still feel very badly burned after last season.[/quote]
Kelly!!! Hi! Long time!
Yes, I can understand your reservations about the season and the brother’s relationship… absolutely. But, something has to change. Back in the early seasons, the brother’s fighting for one another didn’t wreak so much havoc on the rest of the world; that began at the end of season 3 when Dean’s demon deal came to fruition, or more accurately in season 4, when Sam’s actions based on what happened in season 3 let Lucifer loose on the world. Since then, every time they have sacrificed themselves for one another it has had devastating repercussions. At that time, Sam in particular, realized that the decisions they were making were having lasting damaging repercussions outside the sphere of just the brothers and that it needs to stop. Despite how much I love their brotherhood, that needs to change IMO or the Family Business has no meaning. They will still love one another, fight for one another, do everything in their power to save one another, but they won’t sacrifice for one another any more by making shady deals. And I guess I am one fan who does want to find out that Sam was right in season 8 and Dean was wrong in season 9. What he’s done is understandable but wrong. Why is Kevin’s life worth less than Sam’s? It has come down to that. And Dean didn’t sacrifice himself for Sam he sacrificed Sam for Sam and that is wrong on so many levels and I feel that yes, Dean needs to see that. They can still love one another, be soul mates without jeopardizing everyone around them with the repercussion of their actions. Its not all or nothing, its just different. We can’t go back to the way they were at the start of the show, because they aren’t those people any more, that’s life.
I’m with you on the Sam POV though, absolutely. And would I like more than “see this is why I didn’t look for you” well, of course I would, that was just a quick comment for the purposes of getting my point across, but the idea behind it is what I am driving at. There is a golden opportunity for the PTB to flesh out lots of what Sam was thinking at the start of season 8, and finally Dean might be in a better position to hear it because of recent events and a dead profit. There is a great opportunity to really move things forward (whether they do it or not remains to be seen) and I am pretty happy currently with the way things are going!
Hi Kelly I agree with E here about the relationship between the boys. Hopefully the writers will quit putting them in no win situations with the resolution of this season’s arc. I don’t think we will get a revisit of season 8 and Sam’s decision. It was a story line that didn’t work and I can’t see how their can ever be a solution that will be satisfactory to everyone. If you didn’t get Jared’s portrayal of his character and his heartbreak in the way that Sam always express’ himself I don’t know how further explanation is going to help. It would have been nice if the story had been told a different way but it wasn’t and I don’t know how the story could be retold now. Right now I want to see how Dean handles Sam’s hurt and anger. That is the only thing I want to see handled absolutely correctly. I don’t care really about what happens to the angels and demons. I want to see how Deans decisions are handled. I trust that TPTB have a good story for us the rest of the season (we are only on E9 after all). I do believe that the people who put this show together love the show as much or more than we do. I really believe they are trying to put out a product that the fans will enjoy. Some stories work and some don’t. I’m with E I’m pretty happy with the season so far.
Hi Kelly I agree with E here about the relationship between the boys. Hopefully the writers will quit putting them in no win situations with the resolution of this season’s arc. I don’t think we will get a revisit of season 8 and Sam’s decision. It was a story line that didn’t work and I can’t see how their can ever be a solution that will be satisfactory to everyone. If you didn’t get Jared’s portrayal of his character and his heartbreak in the way that Sam always express’ himself I don’t know how further explanation is going to help. It would have been nice if the story had been told a different way but it wasn’t and I don’t know how the story could be retold now. Right now I want to see how Dean handles Sam’s hurt and anger. That is the only thing I want to see handled absolutely correctly. I don’t care really about what happens to the angels and demons. I want to see how Deans decisions are handled. I trust that TPTB have a good story for us the rest of the season (we are only on E9 after all). I do believe that the people who put this show together love the show as much or more than we do. I really believe they are trying to put out a product that the fans will enjoy. Some stories work and some don’t. I’m with E I’m pretty happy with the season so far.
I could be wrong, but…I thought the reaper said she killed April and took her place. I thought the reaper was not possessing April (have we ever heard anything about reapers possessing people before?) but was simply using her form–there was no essence of April there any more.
Trust me, I am the first to call out books, movies, etc. on questionable sex scenes (I still find ‘Season 7 Time for a Wedding’ horrifying and unforgivable.) but in this case I thought the only consent issue was that Cas did not know who he was actually sleeping with.
Again, I could be wrong, but what was the evidence suggesting that April was still around when the reaper met Cas?
I could be wrong, but…I thought the reaper said she killed April and took her place. I thought the reaper was not possessing April (have we ever heard anything about reapers possessing people before?) but was simply using her form–there was no essence of April there any more.
Trust me, I am the first to call out books, movies, etc. on questionable sex scenes (I still find ‘Season 7 Time for a Wedding’ horrifying and unforgivable.) but in this case I thought the only consent issue was that Cas did not know who he was actually sleeping with.
Again, I could be wrong, but what was the evidence suggesting that April was still around when the reaper met Cas?
HI E! Sorry I may have come off grumpy yesterday. I didn’t mean to imply that I you were saying that is what they should do as far as Sam saying, “See Dean this is why I didn’t look for you.” I was saying more that my true fear is that is EXACTLY what they are going to do. In the last few season I’ve only seen one pay-off equal to the build up and that was this one with Gadreel. That was almost perfect. Or if the payoff for SC was Sacrifice than that would be comparable. But I think it was supposed to be payoff for the whole Sam debacle and I just didn’t in any way satisfactory. I’ll admit if I could find a way to to my bitterness from last season out of the equation, I would probably be squeeing and speculating to high heaven because, despite my other issues with this season, the first and last episode were damn near perfect. But I felt like I used up my allotment of faith last season, especially when it comes to Sam. I was SO sure there was going to be more to the story and was devastated to find that was all we ever going to get. So I can see them saying we can just round this out a bit more and have Sam say that is why he didn’t look and once again Sam’s not going to get a voice or even a chance to say why this hurt him so much. It’s going to be about the consequences of Dean’s actions, rather than Sam getting a chance to express his anger on what Dean did to HIM. Which is my main problem with last season. No viewpoint or voice.
Like if we had started this season with Gadreel already in possession of Sam and all Dean would say is I did what I had to do. No build up. No motivation. Just Dean saying he tricked Sam into saying yes. Although honestly that is still more understandable even on the face of it, because you would KNOW it had to be to save Sam that is completely within Dean’s nature-so guessing would be pretty easy but it would still not be good. With Sam we have never been told why he concluded Dean died and why didn’t bother to look to make sure and that goes completely AGAINST everything we know about Sam. So we most definitely DID need to be shown, IMO. I know I beating a dead horsed Sorry. I honestly try not to but I don’t think I can get past it but I will try not to bring it up so much.
As far as, them sacrificing themselves for each other. I am torn. I agree something has to change or the characters or the show stagnates or becomes repetitive. I don’t want to see them make the same mistakes over and over again. But I keep thinking of S7 when they seem more like friendly business partners than these deeply-connected brothers. Or of last season when Sam (see I can’t help myself) seemed to get over Dean’s death so easily.
If one has to go on without the other I guess I at least want to see some devastation. So I’m for finding out Sam was right last season and Dean was wrong this one. EXCEPT I was to SEE them coming to that decision. I want to see Sam talking to Jody how he thinks he must be dead because he’s called every number a dozen times and has prayed to Cas with no response. And that he could magical means but it meant using dark magic and he’s fear that he’s going down a destructive path again. And what if Dean is in Heaven and happy and he pulls him out. I want to SEE them make the decision NOT to do whatever it takes and feel the guilt and heartbreak over it. Not see them a year later, living a some cranky chick and pretty much totally fine. And I will stop talking about it now. I WILL! Really! Yeah. Um. You brought it up. Or someone brought it up, right? Or maybe just I brought it up? It was brought up that’s my point.
Aren’t you glad to talk to me again E? HA!
HI E! Sorry I may have come off grumpy yesterday. I didn’t mean to imply that I you were saying that is what they should do as far as Sam saying, “See Dean this is why I didn’t look for you.” I was saying more that my true fear is that is EXACTLY what they are going to do. In the last few season I’ve only seen one pay-off equal to the build up and that was this one with Gadreel. That was almost perfect. Or if the payoff for SC was Sacrifice than that would be comparable. But I think it was supposed to be payoff for the whole Sam debacle and I just didn’t in any way satisfactory. I’ll admit if I could find a way to to my bitterness from last season out of the equation, I would probably be squeeing and speculating to high heaven because, despite my other issues with this season, the first and last episode were damn near perfect. But I felt like I used up my allotment of faith last season, especially when it comes to Sam. I was SO sure there was going to be more to the story and was devastated to find that was all we ever going to get. So I can see them saying we can just round this out a bit more and have Sam say that is why he didn’t look and once again Sam’s not going to get a voice or even a chance to say why this hurt him so much. It’s going to be about the consequences of Dean’s actions, rather than Sam getting a chance to express his anger on what Dean did to HIM. Which is my main problem with last season. No viewpoint or voice.
Like if we had started this season with Gadreel already in possession of Sam and all Dean would say is I did what I had to do. No build up. No motivation. Just Dean saying he tricked Sam into saying yes. Although honestly that is still more understandable even on the face of it, because you would KNOW it had to be to save Sam that is completely within Dean’s nature-so guessing would be pretty easy but it would still not be good. With Sam we have never been told why he concluded Dean died and why didn’t bother to look to make sure and that goes completely AGAINST everything we know about Sam. So we most definitely DID need to be shown, IMO. I know I beating a dead horsed Sorry. I honestly try not to but I don’t think I can get past it but I will try not to bring it up so much.
As far as, them sacrificing themselves for each other. I am torn. I agree something has to change or the characters or the show stagnates or becomes repetitive. I don’t want to see them make the same mistakes over and over again. But I keep thinking of S7 when they seem more like friendly business partners than these deeply-connected brothers. Or of last season when Sam (see I can’t help myself) seemed to get over Dean’s death so easily.
If one has to go on without the other I guess I at least want to see some devastation. So I’m for finding out Sam was right last season and Dean was wrong this one. EXCEPT I was to SEE them coming to that decision. I want to see Sam talking to Jody how he thinks he must be dead because he’s called every number a dozen times and has prayed to Cas with no response. And that he could magical means but it meant using dark magic and he’s fear that he’s going down a destructive path again. And what if Dean is in Heaven and happy and he pulls him out. I want to SEE them make the decision NOT to do whatever it takes and feel the guilt and heartbreak over it. Not see them a year later, living a some cranky chick and pretty much totally fine. And I will stop talking about it now. I WILL! Really! Yeah. Um. You brought it up. Or someone brought it up, right? Or maybe just I brought it up? It was brought up that’s my point.
Aren’t you glad to talk to me again E? HA!
I just want to make a general comment. I hope it is OK to put it here. People are becoming reluctant to make comments lately because they are being labeled “negative” or “nauseating” or a “buzzkill” and other similar things. This is because some people have issues with the show. Just because someone is happy with the show does not make it alright to judge those who have problems with it. The unhappy people have just as much right to air how they feel as the happy folks. I myself am fairly happy with the show. I don’t always agree with some of the comments and if so, I will post a response. However I would not ever presume to judge anyone’s right to be unhappy if that is how they feel, and as long as it isn’t rude or disrespectful, they should be able to post any opinion without being called names. People should be able to vent if the article asks if S9 is “winning you over or driving you away” a response to either of these questions is valid and should be respected. Disageement is fair. Telling someone they are being too “negative” is not IMHO.
I just want to make a general comment. I hope it is OK to put it here. People are becoming reluctant to make comments lately because they are being labeled “negative” or “nauseating” or a “buzzkill” and other similar things. This is because some people have issues with the show. Just because someone is happy with the show does not make it alright to judge those who have problems with it. The unhappy people have just as much right to air how they feel as the happy folks. I myself am fairly happy with the show. I don’t always agree with some of the comments and if so, I will post a response. However I would not ever presume to judge anyone’s right to be unhappy if that is how they feel, and as long as it isn’t rude or disrespectful, they should be able to post any opinion without being called names. People should be able to vent if the article asks if S9 is “winning you over or driving you away” a response to either of these questions is valid and should be respected. Disageement is fair. Telling someone they are being too “negative” is not IMHO.
#84 Kelly, you made me laugh. Your thoughts, and your thinking process, are a lot like mine. 😀
And Leah – You go, girl. 🙂
#84 Kelly, you made me laugh. Your thoughts, and your thinking process, are a lot like mine. 😀
And Leah – You go, girl. 🙂
[quote name=”percysowner”]It’s hard for me to answer the question in the title. First although I have loved Supernatural for a long time, I have had some issues with it, mostly going back to season 4, and some farther than that. I completely understand why people had issues with the April sex storyline. April as a possessed person was raped, IMHO, and Cas’s participation was pretty non-consensual, but I long ago realized that if I am in any way going to be able to enjoy Supernatural I have to turn off my feminist outlook and take it for what it is. The same goes for any hope of a decent representation of ethnic and racial minorities. Kevin was pretty much a red-shirt from the moment he came on and being Asian didn’t give them a reason to change that evaluation. The Apocalypse story in season five made me a little nuts what with it being very obviously the Christian Apocalypse and Hammer of the Gods made it clear that other religions, even those still being practiced would be portrayed as less than the Judeo-Christian one. So I have tried to ignore those issues. Man’s Best Friend, With Benefits was such a nadir on sexual and racial issues that I can’t even flinch at April having sex while possessed.
For me the problem with season nine, if there is one, is that it is not doing much to address my issues with certain set patterns in the show. Sam still remains a total enigma with no POV, no friends and still living a life he has repeatedly stated he does not want. When he makes a controversial decision like not looking for Dean last season we get no look as to how he coped with Dean’s death. With Dean, when he makes a controversial or flat out wrong (IMHO) decision we get repeated, and detailed views of why he made it and how it affects him. When Sam finds out he has been violated with Dean’s help, we don’t even see him react, we see the reaction that the angel that violated him decides to PORTRAY as being Sam’s, partly to make sure Dean is thrown off kilter. But again, this has been the pattern since season four and although I wish each year that the writers will change it, I honestly don’t expect that to happen.
I do find the canon switches to be disheartening. Yes, no one explicitly stated that Reapers don’t take vessels just as no one said Death was a straight arrow tough as nails boss who wouldn’t tolerate Reapers going rouge. Yes, the fact that up until now Reapers have been beings of spirit doesn’t mean that suddenly wanting physical things so they can be bribed is a retcon. It just makes no sense to me. But I try to ignore the parts that make the least sense to me. I will say that canon suddenly becoming malleable is actually one of the things that is making me rethink Supernatural. Much like Sam not looking for Dean I can live with the sudden changes, I just want a couple of lines with someone, anyone asking how they missed these facts or explaining why things changed.
I do have issues with the mytharc storyline. I was pretty well DONE with the angels a long time ago. I could buy the fallout of the derailed Apocalypse causing the heavenly wars in season six. But starting with season eight I lost all interest. Naomi and her CIAngels never really went anywhere IMHO. What was she trying to accomplish with Cas? Why did she want the Angel Tablets? Why was she torturing angels? It just didn’t jell for me. Metatron is an interesting idea of the scribe deciding to take more power, but in the end we just have more angels that I don’t know or care about running around the world. They don’t have anything to do with Sam and Dean particularly. Other than a few anemic attempts to kill Cas they don’t have anything to do with him. Gadreel has a relationship with Sam and Dean, but since he’s hiding from the rest of the angels, I don’t see any point to roving bands of angels.
I did like Cas’s foray into being human. I’m not a Cas fan, but I can take non-comic relief Cas over comic relief Cas, or fish out of water Cas, or well any Cas except season four and season six (I liked Cas the villain).
Basically Supernatural is losing it’s luster for me. I may stick with it until the end, or I may wander away. Having no other scripted show that I care about against it keeps it on my live viewing queue but it could fall off. I am happy for those still enjoying it, but I’m slowly losing interest.[/quote]
This comment sums up my feeling exactly. As Sam’s POV has become less and less, my interest in the show has followed suit.
Now in S9 we don’t have Sam at all. If he is given no POV for the rest of the season or allowed to feel angry or hurt over what has been done to him without his consent, that will most likely do it for me.
[quote]It’s hard for me to answer the question in the title. First although I have loved Supernatural for a long time, I have had some issues with it, mostly going back to season 4, and some farther than that. I completely understand why people had issues with the April sex storyline. April as a possessed person was raped, IMHO, and Cas’s participation was pretty non-consensual, but I long ago realized that if I am in any way going to be able to enjoy Supernatural I have to turn off my feminist outlook and take it for what it is. The same goes for any hope of a decent representation of ethnic and racial minorities. Kevin was pretty much a red-shirt from the moment he came on and being Asian didn’t give them a reason to change that evaluation. The Apocalypse story in season five made me a little nuts what with it being very obviously the Christian Apocalypse and Hammer of the Gods made it clear that other religions, even those still being practiced would be portrayed as less than the Judeo-Christian one. So I have tried to ignore those issues. Man’s Best Friend, With Benefits was such a nadir on sexual and racial issues that I can’t even flinch at April having sex while possessed.
For me the problem with season nine, if there is one, is that it is not doing much to address my issues with certain set patterns in the show. Sam still remains a total enigma with no POV, no friends and still living a life he has repeatedly stated he does not want. When he makes a controversial decision like not looking for Dean last season we get no look as to how he coped with Dean’s death. With Dean, when he makes a controversial or flat out wrong (IMHO) decision we get repeated, and detailed views of why he made it and how it affects him. When Sam finds out he has been violated with Dean’s help, we don’t even see him react, we see the reaction that the angel that violated him decides to PORTRAY as being Sam’s, partly to make sure Dean is thrown off kilter. But again, this has been the pattern since season four and although I wish each year that the writers will change it, I honestly don’t expect that to happen.
I do find the canon switches to be disheartening. Yes, no one explicitly stated that Reapers don’t take vessels just as no one said Death was a straight arrow tough as nails boss who wouldn’t tolerate Reapers going rouge. Yes, the fact that up until now Reapers have been beings of spirit doesn’t mean that suddenly wanting physical things so they can be bribed is a retcon. It just makes no sense to me. But I try to ignore the parts that make the least sense to me. I will say that canon suddenly becoming malleable is actually one of the things that is making me rethink Supernatural. Much like Sam not looking for Dean I can live with the sudden changes, I just want a couple of lines with someone, anyone asking how they missed these facts or explaining why things changed.
I do have issues with the mytharc storyline. I was pretty well DONE with the angels a long time ago. I could buy the fallout of the derailed Apocalypse causing the heavenly wars in season six. But starting with season eight I lost all interest. Naomi and her CIAngels never really went anywhere IMHO. What was she trying to accomplish with Cas? Why did she want the Angel Tablets? Why was she torturing angels? It just didn’t jell for me. Metatron is an interesting idea of the scribe deciding to take more power, but in the end we just have more angels that I don’t know or care about running around the world. They don’t have anything to do with Sam and Dean particularly. Other than a few anemic attempts to kill Cas they don’t have anything to do with him. Gadreel has a relationship with Sam and Dean, but since he’s hiding from the rest of the angels, I don’t see any point to roving bands of angels.
I did like Cas’s foray into being human. I’m not a Cas fan, but I can take non-comic relief Cas over comic relief Cas, or fish out of water Cas, or well any Cas except season four and season six (I liked Cas the villain).
Basically Supernatural is losing it’s luster for me. I may stick with it until the end, or I may wander away. Having no other scripted show that I care about against it keeps it on my live viewing queue but it could fall off. I am happy for those still enjoying it, but I’m slowly losing interest.[/quote]
This comment sums up my feeling exactly. As Sam’s POV has become less and less, my interest in the show has followed suit.
Now in S9 we don’t have Sam at all. If he is given no POV for the rest of the season or allowed to feel angry or hurt over what has been done to him without his consent, that will most likely do it for me.
Hi Kelly, #84. I have to agree with you somewhat (just somewhat ?!?:eek: ) but I absolutely do see the disparity between how much attention that they have been giving Dean’s rationale for his decision regarding Sam this season (episodes and episodes of insight, not one iota of what he did and why he did it is ambiguous) and the complete LACK of insight into Sam last season. I have come to terms with it, but it really does seem lopsided. I am not sure how TPTB can look back on the two scenarios and considering them equally informative. That’s why I am hoping that some of the fall out from this years debacle will shed some light on last years because Sam needs to have his side of things fleshed out! Wouldn’t that be nice? Yeah… I’m not holding my breath either. 😆 😥
I am torn about the sacrificing as well.. I love that the boys will do anything for one another, will go to any lengths for one another, but I don’t at all like the direction that the sacrificing has gone in. The Winchester’s are supposed to “Save people and hunt things” but with the way things are now, people are in more danger of being collateral damage FROM them then they are likely to end up being saved BY them. Not good IMO; and I’ll say it again, since when is Sam (or Dean for that matter) more important than Kevin, or the soldiers that Zeke/Gad killed when getting rid of the demons they were inhabiting, or April’s vessel? Or Mrs. Tran or any of the people who’ve been causally killed off in the wake of what the Winchesters have been doing? When the sacrificing involved just Sam and Dean it was fine, but it now has far reaching repercussions that I feel that the boys must consider when making one of their shady deals for the others life. I really wonder if Dean knew the price of saving Sam if he would have done it anyway? It’s the same conundrum Sam had way back in Faith? Would he have saved Dean then if he’d known it would mean another’s life? Would he do the same now after The Cage and being soulless, and having his wall wrecked? I am not sure about Dean, but I think Sam’s answer would be “no” and to me, that is honorable. I am curious to see where Dean’s head is at when all of the dust settles… I mean, they’ll have to talk about this right? Maybe I won’t hold my breath on this one either! 😉
Hi Kelly, #84. I have to agree with you somewhat (just somewhat ?!?:eek: ) but I absolutely do see the disparity between how much attention that they have been giving Dean’s rationale for his decision regarding Sam this season (episodes and episodes of insight, not one iota of what he did and why he did it is ambiguous) and the complete LACK of insight into Sam last season. I have come to terms with it, but it really does seem lopsided. I am not sure how TPTB can look back on the two scenarios and considering them equally informative. That’s why I am hoping that some of the fall out from this years debacle will shed some light on last years because Sam needs to have his side of things fleshed out! Wouldn’t that be nice? Yeah… I’m not holding my breath either. 😆 😥
I am torn about the sacrificing as well.. I love that the boys will do anything for one another, will go to any lengths for one another, but I don’t at all like the direction that the sacrificing has gone in. The Winchester’s are supposed to “Save people and hunt things” but with the way things are now, people are in more danger of being collateral damage FROM them then they are likely to end up being saved BY them. Not good IMO; and I’ll say it again, since when is Sam (or Dean for that matter) more important than Kevin, or the soldiers that Zeke/Gad killed when getting rid of the demons they were inhabiting, or April’s vessel? Or Mrs. Tran or any of the people who’ve been causally killed off in the wake of what the Winchesters have been doing? When the sacrificing involved just Sam and Dean it was fine, but it now has far reaching repercussions that I feel that the boys must consider when making one of their shady deals for the others life. I really wonder if Dean knew the price of saving Sam if he would have done it anyway? It’s the same conundrum Sam had way back in Faith? Would he have saved Dean then if he’d known it would mean another’s life? Would he do the same now after The Cage and being soulless, and having his wall wrecked? I am not sure about Dean, but I think Sam’s answer would be “no” and to me, that is honorable. I am curious to see where Dean’s head is at when all of the dust settles… I mean, they’ll have to talk about this right? Maybe I won’t hold my breath on this one either! 😉
I think the main episodes that deal with the arc this season are great. I have some problems with the stand alone Episodes ;They feel like the new writers are attempting to satisfy some fan fantasies. Whatever.
But we’re at the break, not even half way through the 22(23?) episodes and I have felt that since mid last season, they have projected a storyline to have a potential wrap-up to the end of the series by the Tenth (Please, yes! and more) season.
I think the main episodes that deal with the arc this season are great. I have some problems with the stand alone Episodes ;They feel like the new writers are attempting to satisfy some fan fantasies. Whatever.
But we’re at the break, not even half way through the 22(23?) episodes and I have felt that since mid last season, they have projected a storyline to have a potential wrap-up to the end of the series by the Tenth (Please, yes! and more) season.
For what it’s worth, I think this season is much better than seasons 6, 7 or 8….although the S8 finale was excellent! However, I’m really getting tired of Sam not being Sam….I mean, how many times are we going to go there already? Not Sam because of demon blood, not Sam because of no soul, now not Sam because he’s being occupied by an Angel. I like Sam…..just Sam…..although when’s the last time we really saw him? Yes, I miss him.
I too think the killing of supporting characters has gone way too far. Who’s left? Garth? Charlie? Cass? They even took out the Impala for a while…..that move made me mad!! We know it’s all about Sam and Dean, you don’t have to kill everyone else off to prove it. I guess I’m still sour over Bobby…..that ticked me off too! I wish the writers would stop making me mad and start adding things to the show that intrigue me and make me truly want to watch the next episode for the possibilities.
It would be nice to have the boys be themselves and actually in-sinc with each other. It doesn’t have to be boring……clever writing would keep things interesting, but it has to start with a good story arc. I don’t know if the writers are struggling with that because they don’t know how many more seasons are on tap, but they should have a goal in mind and stick to it. EK started with a 5 year story arc, not knowing whether or not SN would go that far. I think that’s where seasons 6-8 floundered….no real arc. At least there is an arc this season, but I hope they don’t end it too soon or it may flop. I keep watching because I am invested in this show and love the J’s and the Impala. Sadly, I lost some of the love after season 5 ended, but I was again intrigued by last seasons finale. So far, things are getting better but still not as good as 1-5. I wish Eric was back full time to put the nostalgia and magic glitter back into the show.
For what it’s worth, I think this season is much better than seasons 6, 7 or 8….although the S8 finale was excellent! However, I’m really getting tired of Sam not being Sam….I mean, how many times are we going to go there already? Not Sam because of demon blood, not Sam because of no soul, now not Sam because he’s being occupied by an Angel. I like Sam…..just Sam…..although when’s the last time we really saw him? Yes, I miss him.
I too think the killing of supporting characters has gone way too far. Who’s left? Garth? Charlie? Cass? They even took out the Impala for a while…..that move made me mad!! We know it’s all about Sam and Dean, you don’t have to kill everyone else off to prove it. I guess I’m still sour over Bobby…..that ticked me off too! I wish the writers would stop making me mad and start adding things to the show that intrigue me and make me truly want to watch the next episode for the possibilities.
It would be nice to have the boys be themselves and actually in-sinc with each other. It doesn’t have to be boring……clever writing would keep things interesting, but it has to start with a good story arc. I don’t know if the writers are struggling with that because they don’t know how many more seasons are on tap, but they should have a goal in mind and stick to it. EK started with a 5 year story arc, not knowing whether or not SN would go that far. I think that’s where seasons 6-8 floundered….no real arc. At least there is an arc this season, but I hope they don’t end it too soon or it may flop. I keep watching because I am invested in this show and love the J’s and the Impala. Sadly, I lost some of the love after season 5 ended, but I was again intrigued by last seasons finale. So far, things are getting better but still not as good as 1-5. I wish Eric was back full time to put the nostalgia and magic glitter back into the show.
Angie E you bring up a good question that I have been wondering about. Every time I read “when was the last time we saw the real Sam” I ask myself have we ever seen just Sam. From S1 he was afflicted with some sort of supernatural power or infection or addiction or affliction or possession or whatever. When have we ever seen the real Sam? We found out that he was infected with demon blood which he became addicted to which eventually led to being soulless to being plagued with hell craziness, to the trials to now possession by anther crazy angel. So who is Sam really. I think that is why Sam told Dean that maybe it’s just him. He was afraid that he would never be just Sam. Does Sam even know himself what that is? Maybe that is why he wasn’t catching on to all the weird crap that has been happening to him. He just doesn’t know how it feels to be a normal human being.
I am invested in this show to the end. I have to find out if Sam ever finds out who he really is.
Angie E you bring up a good question that I have been wondering about. Every time I read “when was the last time we saw the real Sam” I ask myself have we ever seen just Sam. From S1 he was afflicted with some sort of supernatural power or infection or addiction or affliction or possession or whatever. When have we ever seen the real Sam? We found out that he was infected with demon blood which he became addicted to which eventually led to being soulless to being plagued with hell craziness, to the trials to now possession by anther crazy angel. So who is Sam really. I think that is why Sam told Dean that maybe it’s just him. He was afraid that he would never be just Sam. Does Sam even know himself what that is? Maybe that is why he wasn’t catching on to all the weird crap that has been happening to him. He just doesn’t know how it feels to be a normal human being.
I am invested in this show to the end. I have to find out if Sam ever finds out who he really is.
@E
Jared has spoken about Sam’s mindset after finding out the truth, he said that Sam as well as feeling like its his time questions if his life (thier lives) worth more than other peoples lives. A very important question and possible turning point in terms of the co-dependancy given that Kevin is dead as a direct result of Dean choosing to save Sam’s life consequences be damned at the same time as Sam was making a deal with Death that he would stay dead because he didnt want anyone to get hurt because of him/to save him.
@E
Jared has spoken about Sam’s mindset after finding out the truth, he said that Sam as well as feeling like its his time questions if his life (thier lives) worth more than other peoples lives. A very important question and possible turning point in terms of the co-dependancy given that Kevin is dead as a direct result of Dean choosing to save Sam’s life consequences be damned at the same time as Sam was making a deal with Death that he would stay dead because he didnt want anyone to get hurt because of him/to save him.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Angie E you bring up a good question that I have been wondering about. Every time I read “when was the last time we saw the real Sam” I ask myself have we ever seen just Sam. From S1 he was afflicted with some sort of supernatural power or infection or addiction or affliction or possession or whatever. When have we ever seen the real Sam? We found out that he was infected with demon blood which he became addicted to which eventually led to being soulless to being plagued with hell craziness, to the trials to now possession by anther crazy angel. So who is Sam really. I think that is why Sam told Dean that maybe it’s just him. He was afraid that he would never be just Sam. Does Sam even know himself what that is? Maybe that is why he wasn’t catching on to all the weird crap that has been happening to him. He just doesn’t know how it feels to be a normal human being.
I am invested in this show to the end. I have to find out if Sam ever finds out who he really is.[/quote]
Me too….but the question we should be asking is this…do the writers have ANY idea who Sam is? Based on thhe writers fall back of ‘somethng is wrong with Sam’ year after year…I would say the answer is No. And also based on the same criteria I would say the writers have no interest in finding out.
[quote]Angie E you bring up a good question that I have been wondering about. Every time I read “when was the last time we saw the real Sam” I ask myself have we ever seen just Sam. From S1 he was afflicted with some sort of supernatural power or infection or addiction or affliction or possession or whatever. When have we ever seen the real Sam? We found out that he was infected with demon blood which he became addicted to which eventually led to being soulless to being plagued with hell craziness, to the trials to now possession by anther crazy angel. So who is Sam really. I think that is why Sam told Dean that maybe it’s just him. He was afraid that he would never be just Sam. Does Sam even know himself what that is? Maybe that is why he wasn’t catching on to all the weird crap that has been happening to him. He just doesn’t know how it feels to be a normal human being.
I am invested in this show to the end. I have to find out if Sam ever finds out who he really is.[/quote]
Me too….but the question we should be asking is this…do the writers have ANY idea who Sam is? Based on thhe writers fall back of ‘somethng is wrong with Sam’ year after year…I would say the answer is No. And also based on the same criteria I would say the writers have no interest in finding out.
amyh Seems like that has been the question since the beginning of the series. Sam has been a mystery from the start. I don’t think the writers don’t care. I sincerely believe that everyone involved in the show care very much. I think in the end Sam will just be Sam. I would like to finally meet that person.
amyh Seems like that has been the question since the beginning of the series. Sam has been a mystery from the start. I don’t think the writers don’t care. I sincerely believe that everyone involved in the show care very much. I think in the end Sam will just be Sam. I would like to finally meet that person.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]amyh Seems like that has been the question since the beginning of the series. Sam has been a mystery from the start. I don’t think the writers don’t care. I sincerely believe that everyone involved in the show care very much. I think in the end Sam will just be Sam. I would like to finally meet that person.[/quote]
I’m in a very pessamistic mood so take this with a grain of salt. I’m sure we will find out 30 seconds before Sam dies for good. I say for good because apparently the entire series is How Dean is supposed to learn how to let Sam go. And of course that means Sam HAS to die. As much as I’d sell my soul to meet Sam…..i’d hate for Sam to have been a plot devise the entrie series…only becoming a person in the moments before his final and irrivocable death.
18 yr old Sam should have set his sights farther then Standford. Cambridge comes to mind.
[quote]amyh Seems like that has been the question since the beginning of the series. Sam has been a mystery from the start. I don’t think the writers don’t care. I sincerely believe that everyone involved in the show care very much. I think in the end Sam will just be Sam. I would like to finally meet that person.[/quote]
I’m in a very pessamistic mood so take this with a grain of salt. I’m sure we will find out 30 seconds before Sam dies for good. I say for good because apparently the entire series is How Dean is supposed to learn how to let Sam go. And of course that means Sam HAS to die. As much as I’d sell my soul to meet Sam…..i’d hate for Sam to have been a plot devise the entrie series…only becoming a person in the moments before his final and irrivocable death.
18 yr old Sam should have set his sights farther then Standford. Cambridge comes to mind.
[quote]
Angie E you bring up a good question that I have been wondering about. Every time I read “when was the last time we saw the real Sam” I ask myself have we ever seen just Sam. From S1 he was afflicted with some sort of supernatural power or infection or addiction or affliction or possession or whatever. When have we ever seen the real Sam? We found out that he was infected with demon blood which he became addicted to which eventually led to being soulless to being plagued with hell craziness, to the trials to now possession by anther crazy angel. So who is Sam really.[/quote]
I do think that Sam was Sam in seasons 1-3. The psychic visions didn’t make him not Sam. The demon blood inoculation didn’t make him no Sam, IMHO. Sam was the person who developed after being given the demon blood at six months old. Obviously Sam will never be the Sam who didn’t get demon blood, but Helen Keller was still Helen Keller even after she had the illness that left her blind and deaf.
Season three may be iffy because bringing Sam back may have changed him on some level, but I really don’t think it did. Being an addict changed him (as certain drugs do). I do think Sam was Sam in season five. Again recovering addicts are still the person they were, just with more baggage. I do agree that after Sam returned from the Cage a Sam who was totally himself, unaffected by supernatural beings is pretty absent. Perhaps until he took over the trials he was Sam, but since then he has absolutely not been only Sam.
I do hope at some time we get a Sam who is himself and who isn’t being told that by being himself he has disappointed, let down, betrayed Dean. Because I don’t think Sam didn’t look for Dean because he wasn’t himself, I think he didn’t look for Dean because he had learned from all the times he wasn’t himself. I also hope that at some point when Sam is actually himself he gets a voice about how he feels about all this, instead of how Dean feels about all this, with whatever is or has possessed Sam telling us what Sam thinks. Gad and Meg aren’t good enough for me.
[quote]
Angie E you bring up a good question that I have been wondering about. Every time I read “when was the last time we saw the real Sam” I ask myself have we ever seen just Sam. From S1 he was afflicted with some sort of supernatural power or infection or addiction or affliction or possession or whatever. When have we ever seen the real Sam? We found out that he was infected with demon blood which he became addicted to which eventually led to being soulless to being plagued with hell craziness, to the trials to now possession by anther crazy angel. So who is Sam really.[/quote]
I do think that Sam was Sam in seasons 1-3. The psychic visions didn’t make him not Sam. The demon blood inoculation didn’t make him no Sam, IMHO. Sam was the person who developed after being given the demon blood at six months old. Obviously Sam will never be the Sam who didn’t get demon blood, but Helen Keller was still Helen Keller even after she had the illness that left her blind and deaf.
Season three may be iffy because bringing Sam back may have changed him on some level, but I really don’t think it did. Being an addict changed him (as certain drugs do). I do think Sam was Sam in season five. Again recovering addicts are still the person they were, just with more baggage. I do agree that after Sam returned from the Cage a Sam who was totally himself, unaffected by supernatural beings is pretty absent. Perhaps until he took over the trials he was Sam, but since then he has absolutely not been only Sam.
I do hope at some time we get a Sam who is himself and who isn’t being told that by being himself he has disappointed, let down, betrayed Dean. Because I don’t think Sam didn’t look for Dean because he wasn’t himself, I think he didn’t look for Dean because he had learned from all the times he wasn’t himself. I also hope that at some point when Sam is actually himself he gets a voice about how he feels about all this, instead of how Dean feels about all this, with whatever is or has possessed Sam telling us what Sam thinks. Gad and Meg aren’t good enough for me.
I guess I was going with TGE when Sam said he always felt unclean even as a little kid and that he could never be the hero of the story. In TDYK he found out that he had been manipulated by demons his whole life. In season 5 he was still craving demon blood while being pursued by Lucifer. According to Lucifer he always felt different all his life which Sam didn’t argue with while being possessed by Lucifer. Even in Bloody Mary he knew that his visions meant something evil. I think that is why Sam has closed himself off more and more to other people. His greatest fear is that Dean thinks he is a freak or a monster Maybe that is why Sam felt could never be the brother that Dean deserved or could rely on. I was hoping that this season we were going to see a purified Sam who was just Sam but the season is still very young and I have great hope. Just something I have always wondered about.
I guess I was going with TGE when Sam said he always felt unclean even as a little kid and that he could never be the hero of the story. In TDYK he found out that he had been manipulated by demons his whole life. In season 5 he was still craving demon blood while being pursued by Lucifer. According to Lucifer he always felt different all his life which Sam didn’t argue with while being possessed by Lucifer. Even in Bloody Mary he knew that his visions meant something evil. I think that is why Sam has closed himself off more and more to other people. His greatest fear is that Dean thinks he is a freak or a monster Maybe that is why Sam felt could never be the brother that Dean deserved or could rely on. I was hoping that this season we were going to see a purified Sam who was just Sam but the season is still very young and I have great hope. Just something I have always wondered about.
amyh Well I hope that tptb like Jared a little more than that. I think that we will see more of who Sam is by the middle of the season once Gadreel is gone. It is only E9 there is lot more season to go. We got some really great insight to Sam’s character in TGE and Sacrifice I thought. I know it is not near enough for most. Hopefully the show will deliver for those that are not satisfied. Again I’m in till the end.
amyh Well I hope that tptb like Jared a little more than that. I think that we will see more of who Sam is by the middle of the season once Gadreel is gone. It is only E9 there is lot more season to go. We got some really great insight to Sam’s character in TGE and Sacrifice I thought. I know it is not near enough for most. Hopefully the show will deliver for those that are not satisfied. Again I’m in till the end.
I think Jared is liked by the writers….I’m not so sure about Sam.
Anyway….here’s food for thought. Will what happened with Gadreel and Kevin affect how Sam and Dean see the bunker? Will Dean continue to see it as home? Will Sam see this as another home that was destroyed? Will he blame himself if Dean stops seeing it as a home?
Also…if the writers are moving things to that future vision of Dean in 2014 then I really dont see a place for Sam in any group Dean leads. Think about it…no one else would be able to take Sam seriously as a hunter in his own right if they see Dean mother henning Sam.
I want to know Sam, see his POV, this thoughts and feelings. And I also want to see him being a hunter….killing evil, saving people. (not being the one needing saving) It feels …and I hate feeling this way…that the only way to get Sam – the person and the hunter – is if he is not around Dean.
I want my family business back.
I think Jared is liked by the writers….I’m not so sure about Sam.
Anyway….here’s food for thought. Will what happened with Gadreel and Kevin affect how Sam and Dean see the bunker? Will Dean continue to see it as home? Will Sam see this as another home that was destroyed? Will he blame himself if Dean stops seeing it as a home?
Also…if the writers are moving things to that future vision of Dean in 2014 then I really dont see a place for Sam in any group Dean leads. Think about it…no one else would be able to take Sam seriously as a hunter in his own right if they see Dean mother henning Sam.
I want to know Sam, see his POV, this thoughts and feelings. And I also want to see him being a hunter….killing evil, saving people. (not being the one needing saving) It feels …and I hate feeling this way…that the only way to get Sam – the person and the hunter – is if he is not around Dean.
I want my family business back.
I dont question if they like Jared. I question if they like/care about Sam.
A bigger question is who will Gadreel and the death of Kevin change the boys attitudes/views of the Bunker? Dean thinks its a home..will this change? Sam has refused to think of it as a home…until possible the Charlie oz episode. Will this cement for him how cursed he is that he cant have a home? Will he blame himself for destroying Deans home?
The writers apparently are heading for their 2014 version of The End. Does anyone see Sam having any kind of place there where Dean is leader? I mean how can anyone of these hardened soldiers following Dean take Sam serioiusly as a hunter/warrior in his own right (if he makes it out of Gadreel and not broken to pieces) if Dean mother hens him like normal?
I started watching SN becasue two brothers hunting evil and saving people. Not only do I want to know Sam but I want to see him be that Hunter again. You know one of the guys who hunt evil and saves innocent lives. I want the family business to be two brother hunting evil, saving people again.
It canty be that if there is always something wroing with Sam.
I dont question if they like Jared. I question if they like/care about Sam.
A bigger question is who will Gadreel and the death of Kevin change the boys attitudes/views of the Bunker? Dean thinks its a home..will this change? Sam has refused to think of it as a home…until possible the Charlie oz episode. Will this cement for him how cursed he is that he cant have a home? Will he blame himself for destroying Deans home?
The writers apparently are heading for their 2014 version of The End. Does anyone see Sam having any kind of place there where Dean is leader? I mean how can anyone of these hardened soldiers following Dean take Sam serioiusly as a hunter/warrior in his own right (if he makes it out of Gadreel and not broken to pieces) if Dean mother hens him like normal?
I started watching SN becasue two brothers hunting evil and saving people. Not only do I want to know Sam but I want to see him be that Hunter again. You know one of the guys who hunt evil and saves innocent lives. I want the family business to be two brother hunting evil, saving people again.
It canty be that if there is always something wroing with Sam.
amyh Well I think that Jared and Sam are pretty closely linked so I am confident that they also like Sam.
I also had the same thought about the Bunker. I don’t know how either one of them can look at it the same way as before. Dean because he let evil in ending an innocent life and Sam because once again he was (innocently) the cause of another innocent life lost. I don’t think that Sam will look at it as destroying Deans home as much as this is now the place where Kevin died.
If Sam is in one piece I can’t imagine any hunter wanting to take him on in a fair fight. Even Dean warned Benny not to underestimate his brother. So far in these first few episodes Sam is still hunting even though he is not at full speed. He is still by his brothers side.
The show has evolved and changed over the course of these last 9 years. As I have said before some story lines will work for some and not for others. I am still enjoying the ride From how the J’s sounded at BurCon it may be one more season and Sam and Dean will be gone for good.
amyh Well I think that Jared and Sam are pretty closely linked so I am confident that they also like Sam.
I also had the same thought about the Bunker. I don’t know how either one of them can look at it the same way as before. Dean because he let evil in ending an innocent life and Sam because once again he was (innocently) the cause of another innocent life lost. I don’t think that Sam will look at it as destroying Deans home as much as this is now the place where Kevin died.
If Sam is in one piece I can’t imagine any hunter wanting to take him on in a fair fight. Even Dean warned Benny not to underestimate his brother. So far in these first few episodes Sam is still hunting even though he is not at full speed. He is still by his brothers side.
The show has evolved and changed over the course of these last 9 years. As I have said before some story lines will work for some and not for others. I am still enjoying the ride From how the J’s sounded at BurCon it may be one more season and Sam and Dean will be gone for good.
E, sorry with being so long getting back. I think we actually are in PRETTY MUCH on the same page (whew!). Mostly just on accepting it. I just don’t think I will ever get over completely. And half-ass “fixes” will just infuriate me even more. Especially given the great job they are doing telling Dean’s POV-AGAIN. ARGGH!
As far as putting each other above others, I don’t know. It has always been a issue for them IMO. Such as with Sam in Faith, I always got the impression that he was relieve(even though he feel guilty for it) that he didn’t know that saving Dean meant someone else would die. I’m not saying he necessarily chosen to go ahead but I do think that he was glad that he didn’t have to make the choice. Now, I don’t know. I think it would depend on the circumstance, I can think of scenarios where Sam would choose Dean if it was him or someone else. Probably not in a situation like though.
Dean has always been okay with them risking there lives ( knowing that in most situations Sam can take care of himself) but not an out and out sacrifice, IMO. Though the writers said for the first time they choose to survive rather than sacrifice last season, but in S1 even Dean wouldn’t let Sam run into the house even if it meant killing the YED. And IMO the FIRST and only time Dean let Sam choose to sacrifice himself was in SS. BUT I don’t think they’ve always shown if it means RISKING Sam or risking an innocent he will, like it Benders.
Now this situation was completely different. He was risking Sam to save Sam. And I think the decision was made in a moment of panic, if he’d had known he was sacrificing Kevin I don’t believe he would have done (even for Sam). But he may have been willing to risk him too. So it might have come out the same.
E, sorry with being so long getting back. I think we actually are in PRETTY MUCH on the same page (whew!). Mostly just on accepting it. I just don’t think I will ever get over completely. And half-ass “fixes” will just infuriate me even more. Especially given the great job they are doing telling Dean’s POV-AGAIN. ARGGH!
As far as putting each other above others, I don’t know. It has always been a issue for them IMO. Such as with Sam in Faith, I always got the impression that he was relieve(even though he feel guilty for it) that he didn’t know that saving Dean meant someone else would die. I’m not saying he necessarily chosen to go ahead but I do think that he was glad that he didn’t have to make the choice. Now, I don’t know. I think it would depend on the circumstance, I can think of scenarios where Sam would choose Dean if it was him or someone else. Probably not in a situation like though.
Dean has always been okay with them risking there lives ( knowing that in most situations Sam can take care of himself) but not an out and out sacrifice, IMO. Though the writers said for the first time they choose to survive rather than sacrifice last season, but in S1 even Dean wouldn’t let Sam run into the house even if it meant killing the YED. And IMO the FIRST and only time Dean let Sam choose to sacrifice himself was in SS. BUT I don’t think they’ve always shown if it means RISKING Sam or risking an innocent he will, like it Benders.
Now this situation was completely different. He was risking Sam to save Sam. And I think the decision was made in a moment of panic, if he’d had known he was sacrificing Kevin I don’t believe he would have done (even for Sam). But he may have been willing to risk him too. So it might have come out the same.
In reply to cheryl42
Actually Kevin was not the first one killed in the bunker. Remember Slumber Party where Dorothy brings Wicked Witch to the bunker and as a result an innocent man is dead. One of these times when I think of poor dispensable Gwen from season 7 who was killed and not mourned over (unlike Rodger she wasn’t a friend.)
In reply to cheryl42
Actually Kevin was not the first one killed in the bunker. Remember Slumber Party where Dorothy brings Wicked Witch to the bunker and as a result an innocent man is dead. One of these times when I think of poor dispensable Gwen from season 7 who was killed and not mourned over (unlike Rodger she wasn’t a friend.)
That is true but Kevin was family. He is dead as a direct result of something that Dean did. He was supposed to be protected by Sam and Dean. Dean (and possibly Sam) watched Kevin die. Rodger was a MOL looking for adventure knowing it was dangerous. Kevin was ripped from his life and thrown into the chaos of the supernatural. That wasn’t the fault of Sam or Dean but he was brought to the Bunker so he would be safe. And I agree about Gwen that was an odd way to get rid of a character. Dean didn’t seem to care a whole lot that he killed her in cold blood.
That is true but Kevin was family. He is dead as a direct result of something that Dean did. He was supposed to be protected by Sam and Dean. Dean (and possibly Sam) watched Kevin die. Rodger was a MOL looking for adventure knowing it was dangerous. Kevin was ripped from his life and thrown into the chaos of the supernatural. That wasn’t the fault of Sam or Dean but he was brought to the Bunker so he would be safe. And I agree about Gwen that was an odd way to get rid of a character. Dean didn’t seem to care a whole lot that he killed her in cold blood.
I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching
I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching
[quote name=”anonymousN”]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.
[quote]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.
Double post sorry 🙂
Double post sorry 🙂
[quote name=”Sharon”][quote name=”anonymousN”]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.[/quote]
Could you please tell me where I can find this article.
[quote][quote]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.[/quote]
Could you please tell me where I can find this article.
[quote name=”anonymousN”][quote name=”Sharon”][quote name=”anonymousN”]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.[/quote]
Could you please tell me where I can find this article.[/quote]
You can go to Entertainment Weekly or easier Spoiler TV as the interview under Supernatural season 9 Latest from EW 🙂
[quote][quote][quote]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.[/quote]
Could you please tell me where I can find this article.[/quote]
You can go to Entertainment Weekly or easier Spoiler TV as the interview under Supernatural season 9 Latest from EW 🙂
[quote name=”Sharon”][quote name=”anonymousN”][quote name=”Sharon”][quote name=”anonymousN”]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.[/quote]
Could you please tell me where I can find this article.[/quote]
You can go to Entertainment Weekly or easier Spoiler TV as the interview under Supernatural season 9 Latest from EW :-)[/quote]
Thanks 🙂
[quote][quote][quote][quote]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.[/quote]
Could you please tell me where I can find this article.[/quote]
You can go to Entertainment Weekly or easier Spoiler TV as the interview under Supernatural season 9 Latest from EW :-)[/quote]
Thanks 🙂
[quote name=”Sharon”][quote name=”anonymousN”]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.[/quote]
I too felt the same.The interviewer also did not ask anything about Sam and Carver mentioned gadreel in Sam’s body.
[quote][quote]I am neither driven away nor won over.I am at the same place when season eight ended.Which is not bad but not good either.My complaints about the lack of Sam’s POV are still there so I am waiting and watching[/quote]
After reading Jeremy Carver’s latest interview . I am not sure where we are with Sam or if we even have Sam ?.[/quote]
I too felt the same.The interviewer also did not ask anything about Sam and Carver mentioned gadreel in Sam’s body.
I learned last season to never ever pay any attention to interviews by Jeremy Carver. He is a master at saying absolutely nothing helpful, but just enough to stir up the fans.
ETA: I haven’t read this interview, and I don’t intend to.
I learned last season to never ever pay any attention to interviews by Jeremy Carver. He is a master at saying absolutely nothing helpful, but just enough to stir up the fans.
ETA: I haven’t read this interview, and I don’t intend to.
[quote name=”st50″]I learned last season to never ever pay any attention to interviews by Jeremy Carver. He is a master at saying absolutely nothing helpful, but just enough to stir up the fans.
ETA: I haven’t read this interview, and I don’t intend to.[/quote]
Yeah, I got so frustrated with all interviews last season that I decided to stay away this season. I also have been avoiding all the previews because usually they give the entire episode away. Not sure that it has helped me enjoy the episodes better, but I find I am less disappointed than I was last season after hearing all the buzz about how great something was going to be that turned out to be crap.
[quote]I learned last season to never ever pay any attention to interviews by Jeremy Carver. He is a master at saying absolutely nothing helpful, but just enough to stir up the fans.
ETA: I haven’t read this interview, and I don’t intend to.[/quote]
Yeah, I got so frustrated with all interviews last season that I decided to stay away this season. I also have been avoiding all the previews because usually they give the entire episode away. Not sure that it has helped me enjoy the episodes better, but I find I am less disappointed than I was last season after hearing all the buzz about how great something was going to be that turned out to be crap.