Why I Ship (And Why It Shouldn’t Matter)
Castiel is my favorite character, and I ship Destiel. There are many reasons I do this. I ship them because it adds to my enjoyment of the show. I ship them because it increases my desire to engage in fandom. I ship them because I like the idea of two badass male characters having a relationship without it changing their badassery one bit. I ship them because they are both really, really good-looking and it’s hot. I ship them because I can. I ship them because a lot of very talented fanfic writers have created stories that I love reading. I ship them because there are other people out there who ship them, too, and it’s fun discussing our ship together. I ship them because I adore reading between the lines for any snippet of possible romance the show gives me. I ship them because it keeps me engaged and invested in the show. I ship them because it makes me happy. But mostly I ship them because I want these two wonderful, flawed characters to find something beautiful together amidst the broken wreckage of their lives.
In the nearly four years that I have written for this website, I have never once talked about the fact that I ship Destiel. Hell, usually I try to remain as neutral as I can when discussing the show so that it doesn’t seem like I am playing favorites, though I don’t think I’ve always done a good job of that. This isn’t because I am ashamed of my Destiel shipping or that I am scared of being attacked for liking a certain character over another. No, the reason I don’t usually talk about this sort of thing is because it shouldn’t matter to anyone but me.
It shouldn’t matter to anyone but me.
I don’t care if you, reader, ship Wincest or Sassy or no one or Megstiel or Dean/Pie. I don’t care if you hate Castiel or you hate Sam or you hate Dean or you hate any character who isn’t named Winchester. I don’t care if you hate me for loving my ship. Because to be perfectly frank, what you love or hate or desire or want plays absolutely no part in my enjoyment of the show. None. I may not agree with your opinions, and I may not share your ship or your non-shipping, but I respect your right to your own opinion. I respect your right to enjoy the show how you want to enjoy it. Being angry at you for liking something I don’t is like being angry at you for eating a doughnut when I am on a diet.
I even respect your right to voice your opinions when you disagree. To a point, of course. Don’t like an episode or a character or a plot? Fine. Write a blog post or a comment on a forum or Tweet about it. Rant on Tumblr or on Facebook or on LiveJournal. Write a fanfic where you have control over every aspect of the story. Have a civil conversation with people who don’t share your opinions.
But don’t tell someone else they are wrong for disagreeing with you. Don’t tell someone else their ship is wrong. Don’t make fun of someone for liking a character you don’t like. Don’t tell someone their personal reading of the show is invalid because you don’t see what they see. Don’t Tweet the writers or producers of the show and tell them how they should be doing their jobs. Don’t leave a nasty comment on a blog post. Don’t say rude things about an actor or to an actor because you don’t like the character they portray. Don’t go into a Twitter or Tumblr tag, especially during cons, and make disrespectful comments. Don’t repeat the same argument over and over and over for months. Because that? That does impact how I enjoy the show. That does impact how others enjoy the show. That can be bullying. That can be hurtful. And that is unacceptable.
We call ourselves the SPNFamily, but we don’t treat each other like family. We don’t respect each other even when we disagree. We don’t have each other’s backs. Our mouths say we’re a family while our hands push each other to the ground. It’s petty. It’s ridiculous. It’s beneath us.
I’m not saying you have to agree with everyone in fandom or like everyone in fandom. I’m not saying to keep quiet when you don’t like something that happens on the show or in fandom. I’m suggesting that maybe it’s time to stop caring so much about what other people think, what other people like, and just let them be. Let them find enjoyment as they see fit as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. It’s time to stop being so angry all the time.
Well said, Ardeospina.
Perfect.
I say, as a non-shipper, (and not to imply that you need my approval) go ahead and enjoy your ship.
It doesn’t have any impact on me, or how I enjoy the show.
Here’s to learning to understand and accept each other, without bullying.
Cheers.
this is lovely, thank you for writing it – i agree, it shouldn’t matter and if that’s your thing, more power to you. just don’t bully. love your message.
Thank you. As a shipper I completely agree and I’m glad you said this.
“But mostly I ship them because I want these two wonderful, flawed characters to find something beautiful together amidst the broken wreckage of their lives.”
I have no problem with anybody shipping anybody, we are all different, we all like different things. My only problem is I don’t understand why this can’t be just a wonderful, beautiful, loving friendship? A sexual relationship doesn’t necessarily make it anymore special . Sometimes just the opposite.
I’m just trying to understand why a sexual relationship makes it more ‘Loving’ than a friendship.
Love is love, right?
I’m a non-shipper, but I respect your right to ship. 8)
Beautifully said, Thank you. “But mostly I ship them because I want these two wonderful, flawed characters to find something beautiful together amidst the broken wreckage of their lives” is probably why most of us who do, do so. And it’s not a judgement on the type of love..a true connected friendship is just as valid [not that these characters have that since they don’t seem to be able to communicate to each other]. For me it is another layer of connection on top of (not to add value to) friendship that some of us long to see, and don’t feel is an invalid direction for these characters. It may not make their relationship better, that isn’t the point. Its more about the characters deserving the option of exploring it.
Ardeospina, thanks! No argument here at all. I have no problem with people fantasizing about whatever or whomever they want to on a TV show. Write about it, sing about it, create visual art about it, it’s all cool with me. It is harmless and fun. Some might not be my cup of tea, so what?
I agree it crosses the line when fans are rude and disrespectful to each other and to the people involved in the making of the show. That is a general statement that includes all areas of the fandom whether is involves shipping, tweeting (or emailing)your displeasure about the shows direction or just making or replying to a comment. Everyone is capable of making a point without resorting to snarky, rude or disrespectful language. Why don’t we? I don’t get it. It immediately alienates the people we are trying to communicate with.
[quote]”But mostly I ship them because I want these two wonderful, flawed characters to find something beautiful together amidst the broken wreckage of their lives.”
I have no problem with anybody shipping anybody, we are all different, we all like different things. My only problem is I don’t understand why this can’t be just a wonderful, beautiful, loving friendship? A sexual relationship doesn’t necessarily make it anymore special . Sometimes just the opposite.
I’m just trying to understand why a sexual relationship makes it more ‘Loving’ than a friendship.
Love is love, right?[/quote]
Because people tend to identify with fictional characters and like to see them fullfil the things they are either missing in their own lives or things they value above all else. Why do you think most movies include at least one romantic storyline in their plot? Aragorn and Arwen are a fine example: while Arwen served as a minor character in the books, her role in the movies was much more emphasised. Peter Jackson even commented on that fact and how it was basically expected of him to portray a central romance in his story. Romance attracts viewers, and not without reason.
I think love does not equal love, actually. Romantic love goes so much deeper than friendship simply because there is nothing casual about it.
It is not because it is ‘sexual’, it is because it’s love and everything that comes along with it. Love means trust, emotions, vulnerability, honesty. It means connection on a very basic level and – especially if it is done right – it lets you be part of it quite intimately.
That would be my answer to your question. Not specific to D/C obviously, but to shipping in general.
I’m reasonably new to all things Supernatural and being a part of a fan community. My daughter and I playfully argue over shipping but I never realized there was so much real animosity over it. Is most of the nastiness confined to electronic media?
A Supernatural Convention is coming to my area in the spring and I wanted to take my daughter. I don’t want it to be like a middle school lunch room- divided into different warring factions. Are Supernatural Conventions a truly positive experience or should I prepare myself for a bumpy ride?
I have no problem with shipping (fandom is awesome!) but I just want people to leave the writers/showrunners alone about it. Why do certain people need canon to validate their ships? That is what fandom is for, where we can do anything we want. I think it’s when people break the fourth wall and try and take it into the “must be canon!” sphere is when a lot of people who either do not ship that ship or don’t ship it all get annoyed and/or defensive.
[quote]
A Supernatural Convention is coming to my area in the spring and I wanted to take my daughter. I don’t want it to be like a middle school lunch room- divided into different warring factions. Are Supernatural Conventions a truly positive experience or should I prepare myself for a bumpy ride?[/quote]
Hi mary9930,
I’ll tackle your question, since I’m still “on a high” from my convention experience in Dallas. It most definitely was NOT a “bumpy ride”. I met some lovely people – including some who were shippers (Destiel mostly) and they were all extremely polite ladies.
I know from youtube that there’ve been awkward questions at cons over the years, but I didn’t experience that at all.
Based on my experience, I’d suggest you go ahead – be prepared to meet some really nice people from all aspects of fandom, and enjoy the con!
Thanks for this, Ardeospina. I’m going to say upfront: I don’t comment here as a rule, and don’t read here very often either tbh. That’s because as a Casfan – and D/C shipper in particular – I don’t feel welcome here. I feel looked down on as a shipper even by the people here who write about Cas, who seem to feel their insight is somehow superior because they don’t ship D/C. I feel sad that even you have felt you needed to keep your ship a secret.
As a viewer, I’m happy with the Dean-Cas bond as is. I also would throw a block party if the relationship progressed to something more. And I don’t think it would change the show that much… this is The CW: we’re hardly likely to see boy parts being rubbed together at 9pm on a Tuesday. That said, I am under no illusions about how likely D/C is to go canon – I highly doubt it. But that doesn’t mean that what D/C shippers see is solely our imagination filling in blanks. The people who run the show have admitted to “teasing” something more.
What really bothers me as a fan is that aside from our ship, the canon Dean-Cas bond is belittled at every turn by other people in this fandom who also constantly tweet for what they want. Can that be made clear? Because I think there seems to be a failure to recognize that it isn’t only D/C shippers who are doing that and doing it very aggressively – “fans” who hate Cas and his friendship with Dean (and who also freely admit that they despise Misha) constantly tweet asking for Cas to be removed from the show, and for Misha to be fired. And often those fans are operating a shipping agenda too – they just disguise it with brothers-only rhetoric. D/C fans also are being harassed on Twitter: I can’t even enjoy fan tweets from Misha’s Con panels without one particular “fan” insulting Misha and using the Con hashtag.
Are people not widely aware of this? Do the people who are calling out D/C fans for their tweets not see all those other tweets from fans who want the show to be just the brothers even though the showrunner has made clear it isn’t that any more? Do they not see the comments at online articles telling us our favorite – and an important canon friendship – don’t matter, and that we don’t matter as fans? I don’t care who people ship. So why do so many people want to deny me the right to ship what I want to, and the right to love Cas better than I love Dean and Sam? That’s my right. And it doesn’t make me a “lesser” fan.
Casfans do matter, and so do D/C shippers. And there is room in this fandom for people to enjoy whatever aspects of this show appeal to them, and favor whatever character and ship appeal to them, without them having to make it into the nasty war it has become.
The show isn’t going to go back to what it was. Maybe people should just accept and enjoy what it has become, since it is clear that the Js are very happy about it.
Thank you for writing this. I think this is exactly what I wanted to say but wasn’t sure how to. So thanks for that.
I want everyone to be able to enjoy the show in their own way and respect everyone else for doing the same. I don’t care how anyone else enjoys the show because I know how I enjoy it—and it’s right for me. How someone else enjoys it is up to them and to fight about it is just counterproductive.
So thank you for writing this brilliant post. You said what so many of us have to be thinking but not sure how to say.
I think it is more about civility than any particular faction of the fandom. Respect for each other and the people who create SPN.
Very well said. It really comes down to the basic principle of live and let live. How I interact with the show, love, hate, ship or not is only important to me, and only affects me and the same goes for everyone else who is part of the SPN fandom.
Love this post and agree with the sentiments. People all have the right to ship what they want. People see different things in the show. It’s only when fans insist that view be validated by others that readings become problematic–and its not the reading itself that’s problematic.
And KateB you are right that there are many ways of being rude and intolerant in the fandom and no one group is immune.
Ardeospina’s list of “don’ts” is a great list for us all.
Why can’t we just celebrate a platonic relationship?
Why can you just accept that this Dean and Castiel has a romantic element to it that many people respond to?
These are two sides to the same coin and that coin is called interpretation.
You view it as platonic. I view it as platonic with potential to be romantic.
Neither is correct or more important than the other.
Yet lately, the idea that a fan wants a queer relationship is shamed because “How dare you overlook a beautiful platonic relationship” as though platonic m/m relationships are in danger of being extinct!
In reality, when it concerns all of fiction – media AND literature – for every queer relationship (for every ROMANTIC m/m bond) you have *THOUSANDS* of heterosexual relationships (including *THOUSANDS* of platonic m/m relationships).
So let’s stop playing that card – the card that tries to force fans into feeling sorry for the “platonic bond” that is going extinct when nothing could be farther from the truth.
From, tumblr:
“not every show needs queer characters”
well not every show needs 25 straight white carbon copies of the same characters from every other show ever aired in the history of television yet here we are with ten thousand of you on tv and one of me if I’m lucky
how dare you eat a feast, throw me a bone while I’m starving, and then tell me to be happy that I’m finally equal to you you spoiled entitled brat
[quote][quote]
A Supernatural Convention is coming to my area in the spring and I wanted to take my daughter. I don’t want it to be like a middle school lunch room- divided into different warring factions. Are Supernatural Conventions a truly positive experience or should I prepare myself for a bumpy ride?[/quote]
Hi mary9930,
I’ll tackle your question, since I’m still “on a high” from my convention experience in Dallas. It most definitely was NOT a “bumpy ride”. I met some lovely people – including some who were shippers (Destiel mostly) and they were all extremely polite ladies.
I know from youtube that there’ve been awkward questions at cons over the years, but I didn’t experience that at all.
Based on my experience, I’d suggest you go ahead – be prepared to meet some really nice people from all aspects of fandom, and enjoy the con![/quote]
I too had a blast at Dallas Con. You will meet people from all walks of life, old and young. Feel free to talk to total strangers standing in line and sitting around you. Everyone is there for the same reason…. Our love for the great show which is Supernatural. If there was any wank, I didn’t see it or hear it.
As far as shipping goes, I love a good romance as much as the next person. I really don’t care which characters are involved but I will say as far as Supernatural goes I prefer Destiel over Wincest. The way I see it, most fanfic/shippings are written so AU that for me its like reading a story about people who just happen to have the same names and situations as the Characters on the show but are just different enough. Eventually they become sort of an amalgam of the actors and characters they play and I guess that just makes it easier for me to accept it.
As for why must fans tweet the writers about Destiel? Well, let me ask you this: Why must they STOP tweeting the writers? Because you want them to stop? Because you disagree with them? Because you are insecure that their tweets may actually affect the writers? These questions feel very selfish to me. It’s all about what the person wants the writers to see and not what the writers want to see in their feeds. Moreover, fans tend to tweet the writers about all sorts of things. From, “When are you bringing the Samulet back?” to “Why doesn’t Sam have any friends?” to “Dean needs a mytharc!” to “Bring back Benny!” and “Add more Charlie!” and so on and so forth. Fans put input about what they like and what they want to see every single day. Yet the only people who get singled out and are shippers. The excuse is that we should tweet the writers, but says who? Fans who dislike Destiel? The writers on Twitter are not children. They are adults.They have often told fans “Take this conversation off my feed,” in a polite manner; and often in a more aggressive manner, “Get off my cloud!”. If the tweets Destiel shippers send bother the writers, they will take care of it. But instead of accepting this, certain fans try to take it into their own hands to police and patrol the feeds. People literally stalk and harass users who send tweets. They answer back to the fans, call them names, and make fun of them tweeting the writers about their ship. How this kind of cyber-bullying is accepted but mere tweets about ships are disapproved is really mind-blogging. It seems that being vocal about Destiel is “bad” but doing everything in your power to shame, bully and harass Destiel shippers is “okay”.
Very well written Ardeospina. I am not a shipper and personally don’t understand it but that doesn’t mean it is wrong or that I’m against it. I really don’t have an opinion at all as long as people keep it friendly and don’t start the trash talking and bullying that I have seen recently here. We are all entitled to watch what we want and enjoy it how we want. I think that is call “Free Will”. Gee don’t the guys refer to that once or twice throughout the show? 🙂
You also brought up a very good point about everyone calling themselves part of the SPNFamily but then turn on each other at the drop of a hat. I don’t see that as family actions and certainly does not fit into the dynamics of this show. 🙁
Mary9930 a comment about cons. I went to my first one this year in Vegas and had a wonderful experience. I took my grandson who is just as big a fan as I (thanks to me of course) and unfortunately that is where that one uncomfortable question was brought up that riled Jensen a bit but it all got handled very well and from what I understand, that person even got to explain and apologize to Clif to relay to the boys. Our first experience at a con was nothing but wonderful and the people are very friendly and helpful there so please don’t shy away and miss a great opportunity for you and your daughter. I am going to the DC one and the Vancon one next year and hope to make new friends there. 😆
Thank you for this article. A lot of the recent negativity and judgemental attitudes has started to turn people off from the show. No matter what you do or don’t ship,the constant anger and hatred is bad thing.
Real families have disagreements, different likes and dislikes and thats okay. It’s normal, even healthy. Our differences are what make us unique and that uniqueness should be celebrated and encouraged.
[quote]I have no problem with shipping (fandom is awesome!) but I just want people to leave the writers/showrunners alone about it. Why do certain people need canon to validate their ships? That is what fandom is for, where we can do anything we want. I think it’s when people break the fourth wall and try and take it into the “must be canon!” sphere is when a lot of people who either do not ship that ship or don’t ship it all get annoyed and/or defensive.[/quote]
This comment screams to me of the biggest problem and cause of animosity when it comes to shipping: the jarring, opposite end of the spectrum way that people actually view Destiel. There are people like you, who see this ship as something completely fandom-created, and that because of this, it should forever stay in fanfiction and the world of fandom only. And then there are people who think that that notion is ridiculous, because it’s no longer just a fandom thing when the writers and creators are purposefully writing it into the show, and dropping little “hints,” as Jim Michaels put it. If the showrunners ignored this ship, then yes, it would simply be a fanon ship, with no chance of ever happening. But when shippers are teased, that’s like giving them a message that it’s not really so far-fetched after all. And that gives them hope. And when there’s hope, when there’s hints dropped, then many people start getting behind the idea. MANY. It draws attention, and people start cheering for it. People are start rooting for it. People start saying, “Wow, YES, this would be AMAZING if you actually went there.” But for the ones who are not picking up on these hints, it’s baffling and confusing. In other words, for some people, the fact that it’s possible is as clear as day, and for others, it goes completely over their heads and they see nothing there.
What we need to remember is that ultimately, it is up to the writers. So, if people want to campaign for their ship to happen, if they want to express how much they love it, then I really see no harm in it. The only time it starts becoming a problem is when shippers and nonshippers start arguing with each other, because that is never, ever going to solve anything. Nonshippers can never make the shippers “unsee” what it is that they think is so blatantly there, and shippers will probably never convince a nonshipper that there is something romantic going on if they are convinced there isn’t. So, we should all just live and let live, and if the shippers want to keep expressing their love to the powers that be, they should be able to. They are allowed to want it to go canon, they are allowed to wish it with all their heart, and their reasons are many and their own.
[quote]Thanks for this, Ardeospina. I’m going to say upfront: I don’t comment here as a rule, and don’t read here very often either tbh. That’s because as a Casfan – and D/C shipper in particular – I don’t feel welcome here. I feel looked down on as a shipper even by the people here who write about Cas, who seem to feel their insight is somehow superior because they don’t ship D/C. I feel sad that even you have felt you needed to keep your ship a secret.
As a viewer, I’m happy with the Dean-Cas bond as is. I also would throw a block party if the relationship progressed to something more. And I don’t think it would change the show that much… this is The CW: we’re hardly likely to see boy parts being rubbed together at 9pm on a Tuesday. That said, I am under no illusions about how likely D/C is to go canon – I highly doubt it. But that doesn’t mean that what D/C shippers see is solely our imagination filling in blanks. The people who run the show have admitted to “teasing” something more.
What really bothers me as a fan is that aside from our ship, the canon Dean-Cas bond is belittled at every turn by other people in this fandom who also constantly tweet for what they want. Can that be made clear? Because I think there seems to be a failure to recognize that it isn’t only D/C shippers who are doing that and doing it very aggressively – “fans” who hate Cas and his friendship with Dean (and who also freely admit that they despise Misha) constantly tweet asking for Cas to be removed from the show, and for Misha to be fired. And often those fans are operating a shipping agenda too – they just disguise it with brothers-only rhetoric. D/C fans also are being harassed on Twitter: I can’t even enjoy fan tweets from Misha’s Con panels without one particular “fan” insulting Misha and using the Con hashtag.
Are people not widely aware of this? Do the people who are calling out D/C fans for their tweets not see all those other tweets from fans who want the show to be just the brothers even though the showrunner has made clear it isn’t that any more? Do they not see the comments at online articles telling us our favorite – and an important canon friendship – don’t matter, and that we don’t matter as fans? I don’t care who people ship. So why do so many people want to deny me the right to ship what I want to, and the right to love Cas better than I love Dean and Sam? That’s my right. And it doesn’t make me a “lesser” fan.
Casfans do matter, and so do D/C shippers. And there is room in this fandom for people to enjoy whatever aspects of this show appeal to them, and favor whatever character and ship appeal to them, without them having to make it into the nasty war it has become.
The show isn’t going to go back to what it was. Maybe people should just accept and enjoy what it has become, since it is clear that the Js are very happy about it.[/quote]
Yes Yes Yes and Yes. I’ve all but abandoned another fan site because of all the Bashing between Deangirls and Samgirls, Casfans and whomever else the factions have deemed unacceptable. Diversity is the spice of life. Being different and liking something different is not wrong and no one should be shamed or made to feel unworthy for who they like or don’t like. What is written on the show is Canon. Like it or not it is what it is and we just need to accept it and go on. There have been many parts I haven’t liked in the 9 seasons I’ve been watching and many many more that I have loved. I don’t condemn people or think that they are less of a fan for liking or hating the parts that I liked or didn’t like. To each their own. Makes me wonder how they deal with a difference of opinion in R/L.
Someone asked above why it should matter if it’s sexual love – and another person asked why it matters if it’s canon. To me both matter, because U.S. broadcast TV has been so very averse to ever, gawd forbid, having a lead male character fall in love with another male character. And this show has so clearly gone there without actually going there — if they pull the punch now it’s only about appeasing advertisers. They’ve established this season is about ‘who do you love?’ and I fully expect that by the time S9 ends, Dean will say/show it to both Castiel and his brother. I will hold that hope until the second the writers let me down, lol…..
I can only repeat what my predecessors said so far: Thank you very much for writing this! I’m sure this is the way the absolute majority of us fans is seeing it.
It doesn’t matter who you ship and even if you doesn’t ship at all, this show was made for us and if we’re not happy how it’s developping, we could just stop watching it. But the fact they keep continue the show is because WE love it and WE don’t want it to come to an end. So I really hope, for our beloved spn family, that we stop bullying each other.
Everybody should feel free to Interpret their show as they want to.
Again, thank you for writing this!
Well spoken, my friend.
And happy shipping! While I’m not generally a shipper for all the reasons I stated elsewhere, it’s bullying and incivility I have a problem with, not people enjoying shipping.
We all need all the joy we can find in this world, wherever we can find it. And we need to NOT cause each other pain.
[quote]It seems that being vocal about Destiel is “bad” but doing everything in your power to shame, bully and harass Destiel shippers is “okay”.[/quote]
Applauds.
I can only rationalize this by assuming that people aren’t aware that this is going on, and that the person who wrote the anti-shipping article here also isn’t aware of it.
I lite-ship a myriad pairings, but as a creative in the professional fields, I very much chafe at ANY quadrant of fandom trying to coerce the show’s staff to bend to their wishes. And by coerce, I mean employing bully tactics, insults, pointed articles about ‘queer baiting’, the assertion that any homoerotic subtext (deliberate or unintentional) is a cardinal sin unless it will eventually lead to the Real McCoy — that kind of stuff. (Anyone ever heard of “positive reinforcement”?)
Okay, so. Imagine this: you’re a writer. You’ve created this world, this intellectual property. You have a certain vision of this world, certain hopes. You get something of a following. Then those followers start telling you what they want to read, how they want it written. And there are many different opinions hitting your email, daily. [i]Hourly[/i]. Frequently conflicting. What do you do?
Do you try to please everybody? (Which, btw, you can not. No surprise there.) Do you scrap your creative control? Do you stay true to your vision and risk losing fans? WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
This is why shipping should stay in fandom. We [i]can[/i] bend the world to our own specifications! We can squee merrily with our like-minded friends. Yes, of course we can tweet show staff if they’re on the Twitter thing and tell them how awesome something is or how fantastic it’d be if ‘x’ happens.
But we know it isn’t all sunshine and lollipops. There is a LOT of misbehavior from shippers and non-shippers alike. No pairing is excluded. The best thing we can do is remember that there is a HUMAN BEING on the other end of keyboard (whether they’re a fan or staff or both), and we behave like civilized folk, treat each other with respect. NO BLAME.
[b]Set the good example[/b]. Eventually, things will change if we’re committed to improving them. But nothing will change if we keep placing blame, don’t take responsibility, and act like we’re always the injured party. We find what we look for, and if we look for slights? Well, guess what: we’ll find them.
Ship and let ship. Or don’t ship. But be kind, regardless. It won’t kill ya.
“I’m not saying you have to agree with everyone in fandom or like everyone in fandom. I’m not saying to keep quiet when you don’t like something that happens on the show or in fandom. I’m suggesting that maybe it’s time to stop caring so much about what other people think, what other people like, and just let them be. Let them find enjoyment as they see fit as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. It’s time to stop being so angry all the time.”
This was beautiful. Thank you for such a well written article on this subject.
[quote][quote]It seems that being vocal about Destiel is “bad” but doing everything in your power to shame, bully and harass Destiel shippers is “okay”.[/quote]
Applauds.
I can only rationalize this by assuming that people aren’t aware that this is going on, and that the person who wrote the anti-shipping article here also isn’t aware of it.[/quote]
There’s bad behavior on both sides. Period. It is not only the Destielers that are “persecuted”. ALL shippers experience it. Non-shippers experience it. Hell, anyone in a fandom experiences it! The author of the anti-shipping article has been in fandom long enough to have seen it all. Be leaders. Act with civility. Show the rest of fandom how dignified D/C shippers can be; that’s your best defense.
I can’t help but view the aggressive shippers and associated with it as their attempts at seeking narcissistic supply. Thank you for the reminder that shipping is, essentially, headcanon and fun when everyone knows they are discussing headcanon(s).
Well said – and thank you. 🙂
Ardeospina, great article. Though I don’t ship anyone on this show and don’t really see the D/C stuff, I was an avid Mulder/Scully shipper and I can understand the pull. And there is obviously nothing wrong with it and it can do all the things you listed. I think where most shipper and non-shippers can find common ground is in the fact that civility towards each other, and especially towards the people who make the show, is key. And I’m sure the largest majority of shippers for Destiel or whoever as well as non-shippers with other desires, are just that. The number of people who are crossing lines are probably an extremely low percentage, unfortunately that is who stands out.
That’s why I wish the writers would make the twitter a one way street or at least with limited access, because few people can have to great of an impact when bombarding the writers. Even if the result is just that the writer leaves twitter altogether or comes away with a negative impression of the entire fandom.
[quote][quote]It seems that being vocal about Destiel is “bad” but doing everything in your power to shame, bully and harass Destiel shippers is “okay”.[/quote]
Applauds.
I can only rationalize this by assuming that people aren’t aware that this is going on, and that the person who wrote the anti-shipping article here also isn’t aware of it.[/quote]
I think people are aware there is rudeness going on from all quarters. None of it is OK. Having a particular read on a show should not prevent conversation and hopefully enjoyable conversation.
People are also aware there are articles, posts and tweets labeling writers and actors as homophobic and queerbaiters if their ship does not become canon. There are also articles, posts and tweets bashing actors perceived to come between ships, be it Jared or Misha. The show’s writers have expressed how hurtful it is to read this stuff. There is a difference between being vocal and being aggressive and it’s that line these articles are pinpointing, not shipping itself.
Yep. We all bring our own stuff to this show, see it through our own experiences and enjoy it for our own reasons. I know many people don’t agree with my sometimes, starry-eyed view of Supernatural and that’s perfectly cool – as long as they aren’t rude about it.
Same goes for shipping. I know shippers and non-shippers a like. I don’t care what blows someone’s hair back, as long as they don’t care what blows back mine.
It all comes down to respect, pure and simple.
As long as someone doesn’t tell me I’m wrong for feeling how I feel, I’m cool with it. That’s the bottom line.
I don’t ship (unless shipping Dean and Me is a recognised ship? Then I ship like a crazy woman!), but I get it and I’m never going to tell someone they are wrong for feeling their feels however they do.
This show is for us all. Fans need to be able to enjoy it how they like and give everyone else the same chance.
I love the passion of this fandom and the creative energy that drives it and we should never forget that essentially, we are all here for the same basic reason… We love this damn show!
I don’t ship on SPN but I do on other shows. Lost Girl has so many ships that my eyes glaze over. It makes me happy. I don’t think people should ever feel bad for shipping any pair. It’s all fantasy and it’s all fun. Ship, ship away!
[quote]I have no problem with shipping (fandom is awesome!) but I just want people to leave the writers/showrunners alone about it. Why do certain people need canon to validate their ships? That is what fandom is for, where we can do anything we want. I think it’s when people break the fourth wall and try and take it into the “must be canon!” sphere is when a lot of people who either do not ship that ship or don’t ship it all get annoyed and/or defensive.[/quote]
This comment right here expresses my view on the matter quite precisely (and it also explains why I plead guilty to sometimes hating on *some* Destiel shippers, who act as stated above).
I hope this is okay to do. I posted this comment on the other shipping article and I’m lazy and it’s late, and i’m old and wearing purple, so I just copied and pasted it here…………..
Wow! I meant to spend my couple free hours reading fanfic because, as someone said, we have some awesome writers in this fandom. Instead, I spent my time reading both shipping articles and all the comments. Again, wow! I don’t usually comment because most of you who do comment are excellent writers yourselves (as a reading of all the comments once again shows!), which is very intimidating! I’m commenting now because of that very thing! This fandom has many many bright, passionate, courageous, creative, etc etc, people in it! I am amazed how many of these same bright, etc, people have lost the FUN (well, fun along with a lot of heart ache!) in loving the Show! Or at least that’s how it seems to me.
I too have seen the hate and bullying on twitter and other social media, and it breaks my heart. Where did we lose sight of, IMO, what the basic message of the Show is? Caring for one another! Fighting for each other! Protecting each other! Saving people…….
The two articles were great and I agreed with most that was written. I enjoy reading fanfic of all kinds and am a both brothers kind of gal, so I don’t have a bias against any group! I wish we could call a redo, especially the last several months.
WE ALL NEED TO LIGHTEN UP!!!!! That was my grandma voice, said firmly with love!!
thank you for this article!
and the keyword is : respect.
Wow, my second post. I didn’t realize I was so moved by this topic.
I generally have no problem with views or opinions or beliefs of anyone’s choices and decisions.
BUT…….(hypothetical of course)
Don’t invite me to lunch and proceed to launch a verbal attack at me when it becomes apparent we may not agree on a subject.
Either you do or you don’t ship fictional TV charactors. We can still enjoy lunch while discussing the latest episode. A comment can be made, not be agreed with, politely answered and the converstaion moved on.
Why, more often than not, does it turn into; you need to believe the way I do, see what I see, read into what I believe is right there and not between the lines or open to interpretation? Then get mad, resort to name calling, get hositle and defensive, ruin lunch, cause a scene and storm off?
Disgreeing on a subject, no matter how controversial, does not necessarily mean you are putting down that person or attempting to stomp out their enjoyment or entertainment of what they believe.
[quote]I mean employing bully tactics, insults, pointed articles about ‘queer baiting’, the assertion that any homoerotic subtext (deliberate or unintentional) is a cardinal sin unless it will eventually lead to the Real McCoy — that kind of stuff.[/quote]
I’m interested: what are your feelings about the bullying tactics being used by Cas and D/C haters against Casfans? And what do you think of the bombardment of the writers by fans who are hiding their pro-Wincest agenda behind the cloak of “just the brothers”? That is coercion too and it seems like a lot of people commenting here are skirting around that. Just because a tweet doesn’t call for Wincest to be made canon doesn’t mean there isn’t a shipping agenda at work in those tweets.
[quote]
This comment right here expresses my view on the matter quite precisely (and it also explains why I plead guilty to sometimes hating on *some* Destiel shippers, who act as stated above).[/quote]
I’m interested n how you feel about the fans tweeting Cas/Misha hate, and using “just the brothers” rhetoric to hide their pro-Wincest agenda? You’re singling out D/C shippers here, but D/C shippers aren’t the only fans who are constantly harassing the writers.
[quote][quote]I mean employing bully tactics, insults, pointed articles about ‘queer baiting’, the assertion that any homoerotic subtext (deliberate or unintentional) is a cardinal sin unless it will eventually lead to the Real McCoy — that kind of stuff.[/quote]
I’m interested: what are your feelings about the bullying tactics being used by Cas and D/C haters against Casfans? And what do you think of the bombardment of the writers by fans who are hiding their pro-Wincest agenda behind the cloak of “just the brothers”? That is coercion too and it seems like a lot of people commenting here are skirting around that. Just because a tweet doesn’t call for Wincest to be made canon doesn’t mean there isn’t a shipping agenda at work in those tweets.[/quote]
I’m not Quickreaver, so I apologize for jumping in. I think anyone bombarding the writers over and over with an agenda is in rude territory, whether it’s promoting destiel, wincest, shipping, no shipping, myth arc for Dean, or consent issues for Sam. That doesn’t mean people are wrong to hold any of those opinions; it’s the shouting and the underlying assumption of entitlement to the direction of the story that’s the issue. Bombardment isn’t conversation, no matter who’s doing it. This is a classic case of two wrongs do not make a right.
There’s also a difference between writing tweets supporting a storyline someone would like to see and calling people really damaging and hurtful names if they won’t validate someone’s head canon. The second choice, as Adam Glass pointed out, is very hurtful to the people involved.
Thank you so much for this post. And no one should ever be made to feel ashamed for their fantasies. I don’t ship, I never have, but I do have a healthy imagination and I love my fantasies and I do sometimes use my favorite characters in them, they’re just not with eachother. I don’t care what anyone thinks of them, they’re mine and harm no one.
I don’t understand bully’s (or bigots for that matter) I guess I wasn’t raised like that. I love having writers and production folks on social media, I find them fascinating and fun. But I never ask them to clarify or insist on anything (it’s their story) and it saddens me when anyone is bullied or derided for the stories in their head. We are nothing without imagination, but we are even less if we strip others of theirs.
Very well written, Ardeospina. Your article and Bardicvoice’s (also beautifully written) complement each other, in my opinion.
I believe in the live and let live premise. I calls for freedom but also respect for each other. Everybody is entitled their opinion and reading of a show and, for me, it is fun to read about all of them, even if I don’t agree. Actually, the fun for me is when I am surprised by a reading I never thought about, that makes me rewatch an episode (ok, it is one more excuse to do so!). That is why I, for the first time with Supernatural, searched for discussion forums of the show.
The only thing that bothers me a bit is when fans start to advocate for something to happen in the show in order to fulfill a social or political agenda, as, for example, when Destiel fans justify the ship because the queer community needs more representation on tv. If you want Destiel because you love the thought of them both together, fine! But don’t turn the show into a political statement of social rights. We can advocate for new shows to be created with this purpose.
What attracted me so much to Supernatural is how it doesn’t fall into the typical horror show stereotype – there is evil that is all, irredeemable evil and end up defeated by the good guys – or to any stereotype whatsoever. Or when it tries to make a moral statement on some issue (Ugh! I’m utterly bored by this kind of movie/ tv show).
I love the show because there are no absolute truths about anything. Love can destroy the world but it can also save it in the end. No decision made by the main characters of the show is all right or all wrong (Sam, Dean, Cas, Bobby, John…). Demons are bad, but they were also victims, twisted by Lucifer and, apparently, can be cured, and not everyone that goes to Hell is bad. Angels were show as corrupt and prideful, but also can be good. Death is not a baddie and good part of the fandom love him, if God may exist or not or the part He plays is unknown and/or debatable. Monsters can be good or bad – depend on their choice or strength. They can also be victims. Even Lucifer can be seen in not all bad light.
Also, the heroes in the show gathers the best human qualities, but have the most unnerving flaws, and are killers. Not to mention the relationship between the brothers, that I’m certain psychiatrists from everywhere would condemn as toxic and unhealthy, but one that most fans, even with this notion, love it so much that wouldn’t want to change it to be less close and loving.
And the beauty of it (for me, at least) is that the show just expose the situations, but doesn’t try to answer what is the right path to follow and it doesn’t try to appease the ones that don’t like the way it portrays the characters or the situations. That is why we debate them so much.
That’s why I love the show and that is where I wouldn’t like it to change and start to pick sides on anything, including the Destiel ship. I prefer it to remain open to interpretation, as everything in this show works. And I especially wouldn’t like it to start fulfilling a political agenda or shove a moral statement down my throat.
thank you for this article! i am a (secret) destiel shipper who agrees 100% with everything you’ve written. and i believe there is bullying/hate on both sides of the argument; shippers and non-shippers alike act awful sometimes, and it’s unfair to put all the blame on the side you dislike the most…
Thank you so much. I felt very upset that someone was trying to tell me I can’t ship characters on a show. I love shipping. I ship on shows I care about. The others, the shows where I don’t ship, I just watch. I don’t really care as much. But when I care, I ship. So don’t tell me I can’t ship my favorite characters Dean and Cas.
For me shipping adds that extra flair. It adds passion and commitment. It adds to my show enjoyment. It’s why I was willing to vote endlessly for Supernatural to be on TV Guides’ cover, to win a People’s Choice award and for Dean and Cas to win every poll they are in. I love shipping. So stop telling me I can’t ship. I have shipped Spock/Kirk, Scarecrow and Mrs. King, Buffy/Spike, Logan/Veronica, Bones/Booth and above all Dean/Cas.
And shipping is NOT bullying. I find the very comparison to be ludicrous. And there are certain members of the SPN family who are cruel and horrible to anyone who doesn’t agree with their mentality. It is that group of so called “fans” who are ruining Supernatural with their toxic hatred. I wish everyone would just love who they love. Ship who they ship. And respect everyone else. This fandom really needs a love-in.
So thank you for a lovely article and for taking the time to speak so eloquently for so many of us.
Thank you for this eloquent post!
As you and others in the comments have pointed out, what matters is our own enjoyment in what the characters and the show mean to us. So I’m fine with ignoring a great deal of fandom wank, I don’t care what people ship or don’t ship, or that fans are here for whatever reasons they want to focus on. It takes all kinds of fans to make a fandom.
However, there are ongoing issues that have been impossible to ignore, and it’s gotten worse instead of better, noisier instead of any greater acceptance.
Castiel fans, and Dean/Castiel fans–even when it’s just asking for more Dean and Cas scenes, or being excited over them, not only specifically “destiel” that’s attacked–have been, and continue to be, belittled, insulted, trolled, bashed, condescended to, and patronized. Stop focusing on the wrong thing! That’s not what the show’s about! OMG you all hate Sam, why do you keep squeeing over the angel! Don’t you know what the show is really about?! You are not a real fan! Destiel fans are fake fans! All of this is hostile gatekeeping, it’s very entitled, and isn’t doing the show or the fandom any favors.
There’s hate tweeted to the writers, actors, and production staff, Misha bashing, Cas hate, Destiel hate, Destiel fan bashing, Castiel fan bashing. There are also fans who don’t hate anything, but seem to be always on the spot when it’s time to hammer away yet again about how terrible destiel shippers are. And not one word about all that hate and squee-shaming.
So it’s fine to talk about how all factions need to own their behavior, but I’m pointing out that a) Dean/Cas fandom is actually quite self-policing and shippers already try to set examples and encourage good behavior and b) we’re trolled and bashed and criticized for squeeing about “the wrong things.” and there is a (small) faction that outright can’t stand that fans who fall outside the “brothers are all that matter” viewpoint even exist, let alone are letting tptb know how they enjoy the show. And it seems even show and writer bashing and telling tptb how to do their jobs and what their own show is about is fine when it comes from a certain sector, but the moment anyone else has any concrit or is upset about anything, the claws and self-righteousness and ‘true fan” politics come out.
I don’t personally care about being considered a “real fan” but this wank is disruptive, and it’s an attempt to disrupt. I wish fans were more accepting of how diverse SPN fandom is, and could enjoy their cuppa without raging about what fans at the next table are enjoying, which does go for everyone, but I wish more fans would own certain behaviors as well.
I’m not a huge fan of this website, to be honest, especially following the events/article last week and all the ill feelings it generated in the Dean/Cas fandom. It was the type of article that cemented the stigma that WFB website is anti-Castiel and anti-Dean/Cas. Those of us in that part of the fandom like to steer clear of this website.
Imagine my shock when this article came up.
It’s well-written and echos the sentiments of those “on the front line.” We all face this hate every day, along with the bullying and the meanness. And like you said, in the end, shipping shouldn’t matter to anyone but me. Because really? It’s no one else’s business.
Thank you for writing this article.
[quote]
I don’t ship (unless shipping Dean and Me is a recognised ship? Then I ship like a crazy woman!), [/quote]
I’m part of this ship! As long as this “Me” is “Me”, not “You”! 😀 😆 😛
Please, don’t hate me for that! (just kidding, of course!)
[quote]Act with civility. Show the rest of fandom how dignified D/C shippers can be; that’s your best defense.[/quote]
Actually, it isn’t, since this is already going on, in fact D/C fandom spends a lot of energy arguing with itself about it, and meanwhile the central, underlying spark for the anti-destiel wank in my experience is resentment that anyone is excited about anything outside a narrow “two brothers are what matter” mindset. It’s considered unseemly to show too much interest in characters who aren’t Sam or Dean, let alone talk about the tension between Dean/Cas and discuss why this pairing could go canon. But Cas isn’t the only supporting character who gets bashed or Dean and Cas the only supporting relationship that gets targeted.
Also only so much fans can take before they stand up and say stop it, this is hurtful, and it seems every time Destiel fans point it out, we get accused of being bullies (???!), and lectured on how to behave, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
It seems to me the comment section here is similar to situations I have seen elsewhere where there’s a passing mention of different subsets of fans doing wrong yet then a person goes on to make sure to specifically, and at length, complain about the sins of only one subset. No surprise that it is some Dean/Cas fans catching the flak.
#43 Gerry Why didn’t you mention the incident where some justdabrudders/wincesters kept tweeting at Robbie Thompson denigrating Cas and his role in Supernatural? This conversation included hateful comments about Misha Collins as well. Robbie had to tell them he disagreed with them and to take their conversation out of his timeline.
Adam Glass also told people who hate on Misha to get off his cloud.
Is it okay to be hurtful to Misha? Is it okay to badmouth him to people he works with and is friends with?
People talk a good game about respect here, but I think the silence about those tweets speak volumes. There’s this tacit approval of fans who attack Cas, Dean/Cas fans, and Misha.
I had more to say, but why bother? Many posters advocating peace and reason seem to be merely saying the show needs to proceed in the manner they want it to. Will they still be reasonable if it doesn’t?
People who doubt the bullying that constantly occurs in SPN fandom should check out this tumblr:
http://spnantibullying.tumblr.com/
It has many documented instances of bullying and bad behavior by fans, documented with screencaps.
Perhaps if the ‘just the brothers’ fans were as serious about anti-bullying as they are about ‘anti-Cas’ these things wouldn’t happen.
By not talking at all about the bullying done by Bro-fans and tin-hatters, there is a sense that many (including this website) tacitly approve it.
[quote][quote]Act with civility. Show the rest of fandom how dignified D/C shippers can be; that’s your best defense.[/quote]
Actually, it isn’t, since this is already going on, in fact D/C fandom spends a lot of energy arguing with itself about it, and meanwhile the central, underlying spark for the anti-destiel wank in my experience is resentment that anyone is excited about anything outside a narrow “two brothers are what matter” mindset. It’s considered unseemly to show too much interest in characters who aren’t Sam or Dean, let alone talk about the tension between Dean/Cas and discuss why this pairing could go canon. But Cas isn’t the only supporting character who gets bashed or Dean and Cas the only supporting relationship that gets targeted.
Also only so much fans can take before they stand up and say stop it, this is hurtful, and it seems every time Destiel fans point it out, we get accused of being bullies (???!), and lectured on how to behave, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.[/quote]
Stooping to the level of bad behavior is seldom, if ever, a good solution. Regardless of ship (or non-ship), if a fan bullies another fan or staff member/actor, it shouldn’t be encouraged or rationalized away. PERIOD.This goes for EVERYONE, whether they ship Destiel or Wincest or Charlie/collectables. Hyperbolic statements like “every time [i]this happens[/i] then [i]this happens[/i]” is not only inaccurate, it paints a generalized and biased picture of events.
A little about myself: I’m a Sam!girl but I’m not ‘anti’ any character. Fact is, I dig pretty much all the characters. I read some D/C as long as the tale doesn’t insult or marginalize Sammy. So I’ve been witness to some serious Sam/Jared bashing in my day, but do I engage in a negative fashion? NO. Because 1.) confronting zealotry will never end well; if I get the sense the person doing the bashing won’t be civil, any discourse will fail unless you agree 200% with them and 2.) I firmly believe we teach people how to treat us. That’s not to say we can force ANYONE to behave the way we want them to, but there’s a fair amount of truth to the whole “you get what you give” concept. Likewise, you find what you look for. For pete’s sake, unfollow and defriend the fans who rub you the wrong way! Don’t get hooked on the drama. DO NOT ENGAGE.
I still maintain that being a good role model by displaying non-aggressive behavior is the best remedy. I have three kids, and I guarantee that they respond better to positive reinforcement than negative.
So to my experience, it IS the better choice to act with civility. Try it; you might find that folks respond differently to you!
[quote][quote]I mean employing bully tactics, insults, pointed articles about ‘queer baiting’, the assertion that any homoerotic subtext (deliberate or unintentional) is a cardinal sin unless it will eventually lead to the Real McCoy — that kind of stuff.[/quote]
I’m interested: what are your feelings about the bullying tactics being used by Cas and D/C haters against Casfans? And what do you think of the bombardment of the writers by fans who are hiding their pro-Wincest agenda behind the cloak of “just the brothers”? That is coercion too and it seems like a lot of people commenting here are skirting around that. Just because a tweet doesn’t call for Wincest to be made canon doesn’t mean there isn’t a shipping agenda at work in those tweets.[/quote]
I’ve gone on-record many times in this article and BardicVoice’s to state that NO BULLYING IS GOOD. I don’t give a goodly damn about anyone’s agenda–Destiel, Wincest or otherwise–as long as it’s kept to fandom and does not attempt to dictate to the writers how they should do their job, how they should create. Tweeting them stuff like “Hey, I really loved that scene between Cas and Dean you wrote!” is a great way to get your point across w/o kicking a hornet’s nest. Kill ’em with kindness; you’ll get LOTS further!
[quote]It seems to me the comment section here is similar to situations I have seen elsewhere where there’s a passing mention of different subsets of fans doing wrong yet then a person goes on to make sure to specifically, and at length, complain about the sins of only one subset. No surprise that it is some Dean/Cas fans catching the flak.
#43 Gerry Why didn’t you mention the incident where some justdabrudders/wincesters kept tweeting at Robbie Thompson denigrating Cas and his role in Supernatural? This conversation included hateful comments about Misha Collins as well. Robbie had to tell them he disagreed with them and to take their conversation out of his timeline.
Adam Glass also told people who hate on Misha to get off his cloud.
Is it okay to be hurtful to Misha? Is it okay to badmouth him to people he works with and is friends with?
People talk a good game about respect here, but I think the silence about those tweets speak volumes. There’s this tacit approval of fans who attack Cas, Dean/Cas fans, and Misha.
[/quote]
Hi rmb, I’ve posted quite a lot, so it’s no surprise if some of my comments get lost. I do think tweeting or posting hate about an actor is rude and should stop, I know it has happened about Misha and I know the writers don’t appreciate reading it. That’s why I said above:
“There are also articles, posts and tweets bashing actors perceived to come between ships, be it Jared or Misha. The show’s writers have expressed how hurtful it is to read this stuff. There is a difference between being vocal and being aggressive and it’s that line these articles are pinpointing, not shipping itself.”
Misha has had some awful posted about him, Jared has had some awful stuff posted about him and now Jensen is getting some awful stuff posted about him. I think it’s all rude.
But as to why I mention calling the writers and/or actors homophobes and queerbaiters as being very concerning, it’s because those terms are very serious labels, which besides shutting any possibility of conversation, may actually hurt the people being labelled. It’s a step up from arguing in favor of a ship. I feel just as strongly when some posters argue against destiel using homophobic terms. So far, I haven’t noticed anyone posting or tweeting that to writers, but it occasionally comes up in fandom and I react against it when I read it. There’s nothing wrong with shipping, but there is with slapping hurtful labels on people as a way to argue a point. And again, that applies to all quarters.
[quote]People who doubt the bullying that constantly occurs in SPN fandom should check out this tumblr:
http://spnantibullying.tumblr.com/
It has many documented instances of bullying and bad behavior by fans, documented with screencaps.
Perhaps if the ‘just the brothers’ fans were as serious about anti-bullying as they are about ‘anti-Cas’ these things wouldn’t happen.
By not talking at all about the bullying done by Bro-fans and tin-hatters, there is a sense that many (including this website) tacitly approve it.[/quote]
No one doubts that bullying happens. These past two opinion pieces are actually dealing with the [i]concepts[/i] of shipping (or not shipping) as opposed to singling out any particular group. Let’s not make it a tit-for-tat fest.
“Many posters advocating peace and reason seem to be merely saying the show needs to proceed in the manner they want it to. Will they still be reasonable if it doesn’t?”
AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE.
Many of the people who I have seen stand up and claim they want peace don’t actually mean it. What they mean is that they want their point of view to be the accepted “TRUTH” in the fandom and anyone who offers a dissenting perspective will automatically be cast as being “problematic.”
In the same vein, the writers are only to be PROTECTED from fans, when the fans discuss issues they dislike. If fans tweet the writers about Destiel, for instance, this automatically galvanizes a small faction of fans to go on the defense and try to get these fans off the writers timeline. Yet this same faction of fans is NEVER present – and I have checked – when the same writers receive actual hatred aimed at characters or actors that they dislike. When the writers themselves receive so much hate about Misha, for instance, that they have to actually tell fans to leave their timeline, the fans defending and protecting the writers against “evil shippers” are no where to be seen.
The lack of consistency between when it’s necessary to protect the writers and when it’s okay to slam the writers because “they won’t fire Misha!” or “they made Castiel a series regular” or “They added an I LOVE YOU line to an episode” is ridiculous.
There is a lack of genuine desire to provide a SAFE, WELCOMING, and PROTECTED environment for all fans, and that is the problem.
This “only bros matter” propaganda is one of the most ridiculous agenda-ridden ideas I’ve seen circulated in the fandom, and it is consistently used as a vehicle to invalidate and undermine the points of views and opinions of other fans. If you don’t love Dean and Sam only then you don’t matter. That is what some fans insist on selling.
And this kind of mentality that puts more value on some fans over another group of fan is exactly what leads to harassment being overlooked and many times condoned. Because the “lesser fans” don’t really matter and they can get a beating all year long and no one cares.
The imbalance needs to stop.
And the “bros-only” propaganda aimed at devaluing fans needs to stop.
Someone brought up a point I’ve thought about, why engage with the haters/bullies even by just reading their post/tweets/blogs after you realize what their agenda is? Every time someone engages with them you are giving them what they really want, an audience for their views.
I get that you want to counter the hate and support whatever or whoever the hate is directed towards, but you are not going to get them (the bullies) to see your point of view, they are not going to suddenly “see the light” and change their ways.
To my way of thinking the only way to minimize their effect is to minimize their exposure. Don’t RT their hate filled tweet, don’t re-blog their bullying posts even with the addition of a counter point. All they see is that even more people have been exposed to their POV. Block/report/ignore that to me would be much more effective in silencing them than any reasoned argument you can make against them.
quickreaver-“Likewise, you find what you look for. For pete’s sake, unfollow and defriend the fans who rub you the wrong way! Don’t get hooked on the drama. DO NOT ENGAGE”
Oh boy do I agree with this. I see so many shippers purposefully seeking out the other ship’s opinion and then upsetting themselves. Self inflicted wounds I say. I don’t know if it’s because we all love the angst ridden show and we crave more angst so we go looking for it. Then they interpret that they’ve actually been attacked because they’ve run into opposition, Well why are you treading in waters that are not safe for you? Avoid them if you can’t handle reading anti-(your) ship viewpoints.
I find it pretty easy to be drama free in fandom. I don’t chastise people when they are happy with the characters and when they are mad at the characters. It’s their own reading of the show. I don’t even hate when people have really wild ideas like the example upthread that Jensen is homophobic. I don’t agree with it at all but if fans are speculating amongst themselves who really cares. The next step, the step where things like this are shoved at the creators is what I take issue with.
d-I’ve seen this site labeled as anti-Sam and anti-Dean as well. I don’t think that is rare claim that only Cass fans can say. People are very sensitive/over protective of the fictional characters.
I do envy people that ship on the show. I don’t see any of the popular ships. I did love Dean/Ellen scenes and Crowley/Cass scenes are fantastic as well. But as I haven’t seen artwork or fanvids that would push me towards shipping I remain shipper free after 9 years.
[quote]Let’s not make it a tit-for-tat fest.[/quote]
Did you miss the part where fans took the first article to be part of a very shaming, anti-destiel viewpoint in the fandom? And that it led to yet another round of why destiel fans suck?
It seems to be that people cite the “let’s not make it tit for tat” whenever anyone dares point out the anti-destiel behavior, but it’s always open season on reprimanding and shaming the shippers. Whether you intended to or not, your comment is a shut-down attempt on issues that need discussion. No one has said destiel fandom is blameless, or that every faction can’t do better.
Thank you everyone for participating in a calm, rational discussion! I think this is a serious problem in the fandom. I tend to go out of my way to promote respect and to try to further a positive environment to all because I think it is very important to the overall enjoyment of this fantastic show.
It makes me very happy to see this kind of discussion happening!
As I am typing this, I realize that it really shouldn’t matter what my views are for the show. That’s so not the point!
There are fans that, for whatever reason, tend to rile up other fans. For example, let’s say an angry Destiel fan makes an impulsive post. Other fans may see this and attribute the misguided sentiment to an entire side of the fandom! And the same could be said for angry Cas haters, wincest shippers, etc.
I know I’ve seen MANY posts defending Sam against the rabid Sam-hating Destiel shippers, but… in all the positivity I’ve seen for “team free will” and “support all the characters” from Dean/Cas fans, I’ve never seen a truly Sam-hating post.
There are guilty parties everywhere and I think we all need to take responsibility and focus on promoting a positive environment and not giving the negative/hurtful comments attention.
Once again, THANK YOU to everyone that is helping promote the positive side of the fandom, no matter what your opinions on the writing/characters/relationships. I believe the majority of the fandom to be kind, reasonable people that might have (occasionally) been drawn into a fight they didn’t want to be in.
Respect, my friends!
[quote]Tweeting them stuff like “Hey, I really loved that scene between Cas and Dean you wrote!” is a great way to get your point across w/o kicking a hornet’s nest. Kill ’em with kindness; you’ll get LOTS further![/quote]
Hey thanks for your response. Thing is, that many of us are tweeting that kind of message to the writers. But the people who systematically bully D/C fans still single out fans who do that. They still barge into those tweets and harass us. This is not something that can be killed with kindness – it has been going on for years now, and like the poster above (Dot) I’m getting sick and tired of it.
[quote]No one doubts that bullying happens. These past two opinion pieces are actually dealing with the concepts of shipping (or not shipping) as opposed to singling out any particular group. Let’s not make it a tit-for-tat fest.[/quote]
But to this: No. No. No. This is you silencing people who are trying to make this public at a forum where a lot of the fans who are doing this bullying read. This is you enabling those bullies. The attempts to just brush us off at this article and the other one are part of this problem. Bullying should be brought out into the open, not hidden.
[quote] This “only bros matter” propaganda is one of the most ridiculous agenda-ridden ideas I’ve seen circulated in the fandom, and it is consistently used as a vehicle to invalidate and undermine the points of views and opinions of other fans. If you don’t love Dean and Sam only then you don’t matter. That is what some fans insist on selling.
And this kind of mentality that puts more value on some fans over another group of fan is exactly what leads to harassment being overlooked and many times condoned. Because the “lesser fans” don’t really matter and they can get a beating all year long and no one cares.
The imbalance needs to stop.
And the “bros-only” propaganda aimed at devaluing fans needs to stop.[/quote]
I agree so much with this.
Okay, let me start off by saying that I have been a Supernatural fan for a very long time. And the bullying that I have witnessed against Destiel shippers, and the way that it always, ALWAYS gets turned around on them is pretty standard in this fandom, and it’s a pretty disgusting thing to witness.
First of all, if there’s one thing I know, it’s that Destiel shippers keep their love for Destiel between them and the writers/powers that be. Destiel fans do not seek out Wincest shippers to fight with, they do not find their comments on articles and make a point of telling them how stupid and deluded they are. In other words, Destiel fans, have very much enjoyed their ship in their own bubble, and have invited the showrunner and writers into that bubble to enjoy the ship with them. This is the main goal of Destiel shippers…to love Dean/Cas and pass it along. And is there anything wrong with that? No. No, there isn’t.
The only time, and I mean the ONLY time, I see Destiel shippers start getting aggressive and loud is when the ship is being attacked with hate, and they feel the need to defend themselves. When people are called deluded, stupid, seeing something that isn’t there, and basically completely belittled for something they care deeply about? Then yes…people will get defensive and very loud. They will try and “drown out” the hatred by screaming louder than the haters. It becomes a competition of who can yell the loudest. This may come off as being obnoxious, as trying to force something down the writers’s throat, when really, it’s not that at all. You see, in any article that’s ever been written which shines a POSITIVE light on Destiel, the response always starts off wonderful at first! Destiel shippers enjoy themselves and the comments are happy, and all seems right in the world. Destiel shippers are happily allowed to live in their bubble…for a time. But the haters come. The haters ALWAYS come. And I’ll never understand it. I’ll never understand why anti-Destiel fans actively seek out articles that talk about Destiel positively. You know the saying, if you have nothing nice to say, don’t say anything at all? What I don’t get is why Destiel fans can let Wincest shippers and non-shippers live in their bubbles, and enjoy the show the way they want, but it can’t be the other way around? Why?
What’s worse is that people hate Destiel SO much that things are completely made up about them! For instance, a rumor was started that they were sending hate to the actress playing April, Shannon Lucio. Shannon just tweeted this yesterday: “I don’t know what people are talking about shippers being mean because so far, you #SPN fans are freaking awesome!”
I find it so sad that there is so much hatred that people want to make them look as bad as they can…and for no other reason than them loving their ship and sending their love for it to the writers. I cannot comprehend it. I cannot fathom why anyone would try so hard to bring others down, when all they’re trying to do is show support for their ship. My only, ONLY guess is that they feel threatened that it might actually happen, and that scares them. Otherwise, they would never put so much time and energy into hating something. Normal people ignore the things they hate, want nothing to do with it, don’t want to read about it. But for those who obsess over it, they do so out of some bizarre internal panic. That’s what I think. I wish we could all get along, and let each other ship what we want. But that seems like it will never happen, not as long as Destiel shippers have hope, and there are those who would want to take that from them.
Nice article, and it’s exactly how I feel. 🙂 Thank you for being yet another voice advocating peace among the fandom.
[quote] I see so many shippers purposefully seeking out the other ship’s opinion and then upsetting themselves. Self inflicted wounds I say. [/quote]
I do not care what Cas haters say to each other. I simply do. Not. Care. And I don’t seek it out, because I have no desire to engage with them. It’s enough to see what they tweet to the writers, which frequently is indicative of a pathological hatred for Misha Collins that is really disturbing and totally unjustified. The bullying we are talking about is going on on the *writers’ timelines*. We are entitled to look at what is being tweeted to the writers and if we see Cas and Misha hate, we are entitled to counter that. Also, we don’t engage – the problem here is that we can’t tweet Cas love to the writers without brothers-only fans tweeting back insults. The bullying also goes on in the Con hashtags, and we are entitled to be able to check the Con hashtags without seeing Misha hate.
I’m sorry, I’m sure I’m coming over as really strident but these people are ruining the fandom, and many of them are regulars at this website. The Intentional? unintentional?) attempts to shut down those of us who are trying to highlight it are rather frustrating.
Geena & Kates B. I agree. Anti-Dean/Cass shippers shouldn’t comment on articles just to down the ship. It’s at best petty. But I’m a little confused as I wasn’t pointing to just to those shippers who seek out anti viewpoints and get themselves upset. Rabid Wincest shippers do the same obviously. Do we need to make that point over and over? We all get that.
Dot-why are you following people like that on your timeline or tumblr or wherever you’re seeing it? Rob’s point was spot on. Don’t follow people like that if it upsets you.
I’m feeling like this site is now getting attacked and labeled as a shipping hating site from some of these comments. I don’t get it.
[quote]
I do not care what Cas haters say to each other. I simply do. Not. Care. And I don’t seek it out, because I have no desire to engage with them. It’s enough to see what they tweet to the writers, which frequently is indicative of a pathological hatred for Misha Collins that is really disturbing and totally unjustified. The bullying we are talking about is going on on the *writers’ timelines*. We are entitled to look at what is being tweeted to the writers and if we see Cas and Misha hate, we are entitled to counter that. Also, we don’t engage – the problem here is that we can’t tweet Cas love to the writers without brothers-only fans tweeting back insults. The bullying also goes on in the Con hashtags, and we are entitled to be able to check the Con hashtags without seeing Misha hate.
I’m sorry, I’m sure I’m coming over as really strident but these people are ruining the fandom, and many of them are regulars at this website. The Intentional? unintentional?) attempts to shut down those of us who are trying to highlight it are rather frustrating.[/quote]
I think the point of the articles is strive for civil interactions. There are rude and uncalled for posts from all points of the spectrum. I’ve seen dreadful stuff about each of the three leads, not just Misha, and the writers get lots of rude or demanding tweets from all corners. They’ve addressed some of them.
We’ll make more change if we decide to be the change.
[quote]Geena & Kates B. I agree. Anti-Dean/Cass shippers shouldn’t comment on articles just to down the ship. It’s at best petty. But I’m a little confused as I wasn’t pointing to just to those shippers who seek out anti viewpoints and get themselves upset. Rabid Wincest shippers do the same obviously. Do we need to make that point over and over? We all get that.
Dot-why are you following people like that on your timeline or tumblr or wherever you’re seeing it? Rob’s point was spot on. Don’t follow people like that if it upsets you.
I’m feeling like this site is now getting attacked and labeled as a shipping hating site from some of these comments. I don’t get it.[/quote]
Hear hear, FirstBorn. I’m not a regular to this site, but I caught wind of the opinion pieces discussing bullying and shipping (which have unfortunately become intertwined) in the fandom, and I popped over to take part in the discussion. WOW. Were my eyes opened.
I have never butted heads with D/C shippers. Some of my dear fandom friends love the pairing! I, personally, do not engage in shipping wars and consequentially, my tumblr/twitter/LJ feeds are relatively peaceful but I have seem examples of ALL manner of bullying that spans ALL corners of fandom. To my eyes, the Destielers are no more persecuted than the Wincesters than … whomever.
This is my reality. It’s not anyone else’s reality. And I will not admit any one shipping group is any more abused than another because I can’t vouch for it!
Interestingly — or NOT — I’m starting to feel bullied by some posters here who refuse to allow me to have my beliefs. I’m being told I’m wrong for disagreeing. Huh.
[quote]
But to this: No. No. No. This is you silencing people who are trying to make this public at a forum where a lot of the fans who are doing this bullying read. This is you enabling those bullies. The attempts to just brush us off at this article and the other one are part of this problem. Bullying should be brought out into the open, not hidden.[/quote]
No, Kate, this is me seeing the forest for the trees. This is me addressing what the REAL problem is, and that’s rudeness and intolerance on all sides. Not the specific persecution of people who happen to ship Destiel. I have no clue who reads/posts stuff here at WFB; that’s not where I’m coming from, in the least. Just to be clear.
[quote][quote]Let’s not make it a tit-for-tat fest.[/quote]
Did you miss the part where fans took the first article to be part of a very shaming, anti-destiel viewpoint in the fandom? And that it led to yet another round of why destiel fans suck?
It seems to be that people cite the “let’s not make it tit for tat” whenever anyone dares point out the anti-destiel behavior, but it’s always open season on reprimanding and shaming the shippers. Whether you intended to or not, your comment is a shut-down attempt on issues that need discussion. No one has said destiel fandom is blameless, or that every faction can’t do better.[/quote]
It may seem that way to you, Dot, because you’re evidently emotionally sunburnt towards anything shipping-related. You see slight where none was intended. The issues raised by this op-ed is NOT “Destielers are egregious abused”; the issue is we can all ship or not ship whomever we wish but if we behave respectfully to each other and the staff, we can make forward strides and ALL enjoy fandom.
[quote] these people are ruining the fandom, and many of them are regulars at this website.[/quote]
As a regular at this site I am not even going to dignify this comment about the posters here with a response other than highlighting it.
In defense of the site itself it gets abuse from all sides because it tries to be as evenhanded as possible and doesn’t allow hating on any character and especially not on actors. I congratulate ALL of the writers for bringing us their perspectives about the show while maintaining an overview of the show itself.
Gerry is doing an awesome job of articulating the message (by just making it over and over again) that this and Bardicvoice’s article have tried to put forward, while being roundly ignored except by people reinterpreting her (his?) point. Good for you Gerry you have more patience than anyone should be expected to have.
[quote]Dot-why are you following people like that on your timeline or tumblr or wherever you’re seeing it? Rob’s point was spot on. Don’t follow people like that if it upsets you. [/quote]
Sorry, I thought I’d been more clear in my original comment when I described my perspective. This is not from people I follow. I’ve tried as much as possible to place myself in my own warm and friendly bubble and have exercised ignore on tumblr and block on twitter.
There are tumblr hate accounts that do nothing but troll for destiel friendly posts and reblog to bash them. Misha friendly or destiel friendly tweets are attacked on convention hashtags. I can’t enjoy a convention without seeing Destiel or Misha hate or there being some sort of wank about how horrible all destiel fans are and I’m tired of the absolutist viewpoint that shippers=troublemakers and are always to blame when shippers have been treated with unconscionable rudeness and lack of respect from fans who claim to be better fans.
The hate is taken to the people who make the show and to the actors. This is beyond not affecting us just by ignoring. Tweets calling for Castiel’s death at Dean’s hand, or dictating that the writers had better stay focused on the brothers because that’s all that matters. They’ve bashed Misha to the writers. There’s been a number of tweets asking why he hasn’t been fired yet.
My main point: this is affecting things regarding participation in fandom in general, in shared spaces. This is beyond people’s personal dislike of a character or ship. Add to that the aggressive True Fan gatekeeping rhetoric. The end result is an unwelcoming environment, while people keep wondering why we’re annoyed and why we feel unwelcome. If we protest against the aggressive hostility, we’re accused of being troublemakers.
Some non-engagement and not letting it provoke reaction isn’t a bad idea however (because it is designed to provoke, to make others uncomfortable, in the hopes of making them go away).
Thank you for the good article. I’m a Destiel shipper myself, and I have been told that I’m not a true fan, that I hate Sam, that I haven’t watched seasons 1-3, that I should leave because I don’t get the show. I see hate on tumblr and on twitter (with the same people tweeting the writers their despise of Cas/Misha/Destiel) every day. I’m in a lot of fandoms and SPN is the only one that does not feel safe. Destiel shippers are far from perfect, but the kind of things some ‘true fans’ say is just unbelievable. I thought, when I was new to the fandom, that we really were like a family. Reality was a huge disappointment.
[quote]It may seem that way to you, Dot, because you’re evidently emotionally sunburnt towards anything shipping-related. You see slight where none was intended. The issues raised by this op-ed is NOT “Destielers are egregious abused”; the issue is we can all ship or not ship whomever we wish but if we behave respectfully to each other and the staff, we can make forward strides and ALL enjoy fandom.[/quote]
If the point is we can all ship or not ship whoever we wish, then the things I’m commenting about are directly relevant. I am not being given respect and courtesy to ship whatever I want, and the right to interpret canon. No one is trying to force destiel on anybody. The writers will make it canon if they feel it’s the story they’re ready to tell.
You also just used the classic “you’re too emotionally involved to see this clearly” as a counter-argument. I’m going to disengage now, and will continue on fandoming however is best for me. Thank you for the civil discussion!
[quote][quote]
I’m sorry, I’m sure I’m coming over as really strident but these people are ruining the fandom, and many of them are regulars at this website. The Intentional? unintentional?) attempts to shut down those of us who are trying to highlight it are rather frustrating.[/quote]
I’m sorry, I’ve been reading the articles and comments in this site for some time now, and I don’t remember reading Cas, and even less, Misha hate in here, unlike in some other sites, that I stopped reading for this reason.
I only read people disagreeing with some Cas atitudes, but the same goes for Sam, Dean or any other character of the show. This is not hate – it’s just an opinion.
Personally, I am not a Destiel shipper, nor I ship any other ship. But still, I LOVE Cas, I LOVE Dean and Cas dynamic and look foward to every interection between them. I also have the utmost respect for Misha as an actor and as a person. I’m very grateful for what he brings to the show.
So, I’m lost to what your view of Cas and Misha hate in this site is.
[quote]This is me addressing what the REAL problem is, and that’s rudeness and intolerance on all sides. [/quote]
But you’re expecting us to just to bite our tongues and shut up about it, and that’s shutting us down. I’m sorry – it may not be intentional, but that’s how it’s coming over.
You wouldn’t even know about the rudeness and intolerance and bullying that is going on if we hadn’t come here and mentioned it. And the minute we did, we were essentially jumped on and told to be quiet.
[quote][quote] these people are ruining the fandom, and many of them are regulars at this website.[/quote]
As a regular at this site I am not even going to dignify this comment about the posters here with a response other than highlighting it.
In defense of the site itself it gets abuse from all sides because it tries to be as evenhanded as possible and doesn’t allow hating on any character and especially not on actors. I congratulate ALL of the writers for bringing us their perspectives about the show while maintaining an overview of the show itself.
Gerry is doing an awesome job of articulating the message (by just making it over and over again) that this and Bardicvoice’s article have tried to put forward, while being roundly ignored except by people reinterpreting her (his?) point. Good for you Gerry you have more patience than anyone should be expected to have.[/quote]
Ditto!
[quote]I’m lost to what your view of Cas and Misha hate in this site is.[/quote]
Oh I’m sorry: I wasn’t very clear on that. They don’t post their hate here, and I’m 100% confident that if they did it would be dealt with and they would be told to stop. What I meant was that I have seen some of the people who flood the writers and Misha with Misha hate listed in the comments here on the few times I’ve read articles here.
[quote][quote]I’m lost to what your view of Cas and Misha hate in this site is.[/quote]
Oh I’m sorry: I wasn’t very clear on that. They don’t post their hate here, and I’m 100% confident that if they did it would be dealt with and they would be told to stop. What I meant was that I have seen some of the people who flood the writers and Misha with Misha hate listed in the comments here on the few times I’ve read articles here.[/quote]
As a Jared/Sam fan I have seen enough hate in all spheres of social media to last me a life time it is not something unique to just Misha . As for what others may or may not do else where that is not for me to comment on . Speaking for myself I am really not bothered if someone ship’s two ham sandwiches together as long has they dont try to hurt or impose it on others.
[quote][quote]This is me addressing what the REAL problem is, and that’s rudeness and intolerance on all sides. [/quote]
But you’re expecting us to just to bite our tongues and shut up about it, and that’s shutting us down. I’m sorry – it may not be intentional, but that’s how it’s coming over.
You wouldn’t even know about the rudeness and intolerance and bullying that is going on if we hadn’t come here and mentioned it. And the minute we did, we were essentially jumped on and told to be quiet.[/quote]
I think there’s a difference between being asked to stay on-topic and being “shut down.” I know; it’s not cool to feel marginalized or feel like you’re being judged or made fun of. I totally get that! Heck, simply [i]admitting[/i] that I’m in the SPN fandom often garners me ‘looks’. But the above article isn’t talking about Destielers being specifically picked-on, and what’s more, you’ve made claims (that I’ve not seen evidence of) that this site harbors anti-Destiel sentiments: “I’m sorry, I’m sure I’m coming over as really strident but these people are ruining the fandom, and many of them are regulars at this website. The Intentional? unintentional?) attempts to shut down those of us who are trying to highlight it are rather frustrating.”
It’s very frustrating to me that you seem to want to place blame and highlight negativity. It’s been said time and again that hurtful comments have been exchanged all ’round in fandom, and [i]that’s[/i] really the important part … not who said what to whom. As a unit, we need to stop blaming and let folks ship (or not ship) where they may. I, personally, don’t attack Destielers. I have been a critic of dragging political issues into shipping, but that’s it. I do respect that you’re feeling hurt, and I still maintain that leading by positive behavior is the best solution. And agreeing to disagree, sometimes!
[quote]The thing is, that many of us are tweeting that kind of message to the writers. But the people who systematically bully D/C fans still single out fans who do that. They still barge into those tweets and harass us. This is not something that can be killed with kindness – it has been going on for years now, [/quote]
This. A few weeks ago Robbie Thompson was on Twitter answering fan questions so I tweeted him that I hope Cas comes to live in the bunker where it’s safe. A few seconds later someone I’d never interacted with before, who I’d never followed tweeted me what a horrible, horrible idea this was and how Cas should be as far away from the brothers as possible. I came to find out she is extremely anti-Cas, anti-Misha and anti-Destiel so I blocked her from ever replying to me again. However the fact that she thought it was okay to go after a perfect stranger for having a different opinion spoke volumes to me. I didn’t seek her out, I didn’t engage with her; I tweeted my support of something to Robbie and she decided to butt in aggressively with her unwanted/unasked for opinion. And unfortunately this happens quite a lot.
Even when the writers say over and over again they love Cas or don’t mind tweets about Destiel, someone is there to butt in how it’s not appropriate. Well if the people involved with the show don’t mind them/actively answer them, what is the real issue? Is it really “inappropriate” if the people in charge are fine with it? And how many times do the people in charge need to SAY they are fine with it before it sinks into the heads of the people who’d rather they weren’t?
It’s hard to kill someone with kindness and only interact with the writers when the minute you say anything pro-Castiel, pro-Misha or pro-Destiel, or even pro-Dean someone is waiting in the wings to attack you.
In any case though I agree with the sentiment of this article. People should be allowed to ship whatever they please and not get bashed for it. Unfortunately that day might only ever come when SPN is off the air…and then like years later.
I want to clarify something from my earlier post.
I opined that perhaps the best way to deal with the haters/bullies is to just not engage them, I did in no way intend that to mean if you choose to engage them you are somehow in the wrong. This is my opinion and the way that I tend to deal with situations of this nature. As with all opinions it is neither right or wrong nor is it any more or less valid than someone else’s opinion.
I respect everyone’s right to express their opinion as long as its done in a calm, reasonable and respectful way.
Edited by Alice – I’m not allowing this. For one, the comment you quoted was already handled in a civil manner by the person the comment went to, Dot. She and quickreaver handled the whole thing like adults. Your attack here is not tolerated and uncalled for.
No one is censoring your ship. No one is patronizing you for promoting a ship and no one here is allowed to attack you for it. So please, tone down your anger and try to give more constructive comments.
[quote]”Many posters advocating peace and reason seem to be merely saying the show needs to proceed in the manner they want it to. Will they still be reasonable if it doesn’t?”
AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE.
Many of the people who I have seen stand up and claim they want peace don’t actually mean it. What they mean is that they want their point of view to be the accepted “TRUTH” in the fandom and anyone who offers a dissenting perspective will automatically be cast as being “problematic.”
In the same vein, the writers are only to be PROTECTED from fans, when the fans discuss issues they dislike. If fans tweet the writers about Destiel, for instance, this automatically galvanizes a small faction of fans to go on the defense and try to get these fans off the writers timeline. Yet this same faction of fans is NEVER present – and I have checked – when the same writers receive actual hatred aimed at characters or actors that they dislike. When the writers themselves receive so much hate about Misha, for instance, that they have to actually tell fans to leave their timeline, the fans defending and protecting the writers against “evil shippers” are no where to be seen.
The lack of consistency between when it’s necessary to protect the writers and when it’s okay to slam the writers because “they won’t fire Misha!” or “they made Castiel a series regular” or “They added an I LOVE YOU line to an episode” is ridiculous.
There is a lack of genuine desire to provide a SAFE, WELCOMING, and PROTECTED environment for all fans, and that is the problem.
This “only bros matter” propaganda is one of the most ridiculous agenda-ridden ideas I’ve seen circulated in the fandom, and it is consistently used as a vehicle to invalidate and undermine the points of views and opinions of other fans. If you don’t love Dean and Sam only then you don’t matter. That is what some fans insist on selling.
And this kind of mentality that puts more value on some fans over another group of fan is exactly what leads to harassment being overlooked and many times condoned. Because the “lesser fans” don’t really matter and they can get a beating all year long and no one cares.
The imbalance needs to stop.
And the “bros-only” propaganda aimed at devaluing fans needs to stop.[/quote]
I think that is exactly what these articles are trying to convey to EVERYONE – that bullying and rudeness is unacceptable, regardless of who is doing it. We can spend weeks complaining about this group or that group but in the end it is our own individual actions that we need to police.
[quote][quote]This is me addressing what the REAL problem is, and that’s rudeness and intolerance on all sides. [/quote]
But you’re expecting us to just to bite our tongues and shut up about it, and that’s shutting us down. I’m sorry – it may not be intentional, but that’s how it’s coming over.
You wouldn’t even know about the rudeness and intolerance and bullying that is going on if we hadn’t come here and mentioned it. And the minute we did, we were essentially jumped on and told to be quiet.[/quote]
If anyone was expected to bite their tongues and shut up about it these articles would never have been written. Civil debate is always welcome here – the key word being ‘civil’.
Wow Ardeospina this article is just perfect. Thank you so so much for saying these things.
I think everything you wrote is super important that fandom needs to remember, especially when we so often take it outside of the internet and into the ‘real world’.
I will admit that I am definitely one who believes the show is all about the brothers. Other characters add to the show but for me only those two are integral to the show. I like Cas a lot but i think the show would be fine without him. That is not bashing. Just as if you said D/C were the only pivotal characters it wouldn’t be bullying. Stating your opinions or desires for the show is not the issue.
The problem comes from one of us trying to force our views on other fans or writers. An opinion being in the minority or not being represented on the show, does not mean the view is being persecuted. It simply means that that is in the minority or not represented on the show. That’s it. Such as, as I stated I hated they didn’t explain Sam’s action at the beginning of last season. It ruined the season for me. But the majority of people seem to love the season and thought it was the best since S5. Does that make me persecuted? Of course not. If things had continued in that vain I would have been very upset and stopped watching the show. What I didn’t do is take to twitter to try to express why it upset me so much in 140 characters and send it to the writers. As much as I might have been tempted to. It simply isn’t the forum to try to express complex ideas. And that is the problem. The most you can really do on twitter is emote or strip a statement of all nuance or subtly. So the tweets often become emotion filled tantrums. I’ll admit to not paying much attention to tweets or tumblr. So I don’t usually notice until someone like Adam Glass tweets how upset he is over being accused of queer baiting and who knows what else. And how he doesn’t appreciate the same being said about his friends and writers.
There is no excuse for that. None. Regardless of what’s said by who first. We have no control over what other tweets, only our own. If there are people who are attacking all Destiel tweets than that is equally wrong. But putting the writers in the middle of a inter fandom bickering is just rude and accomplishes nothing. There is a time and a place to debate subjects. I would enjoy debating the merits of my view (I just enjoy debating in general). And would welcome hearing any civil POV, even though I doubt either of our views would change but the discussion could still be illuminating. (though it probably ought to be on a more appropriate thread) But accusing everyone who doesn’t agree with you of bullying is extremely unproductive.
[quote][quote]Dot-why are you following people like that on your timeline or tumblr or wherever you’re seeing it? Rob’s point was spot on. Don’t follow people like that if it upsets you. [/quote]
Sorry, I thought I’d been more clear in my original comment when I described my perspective. This is not from people I follow. I’ve tried as much as possible to place myself in my own warm and friendly bubble and have exercised ignore on tumblr and block on twitter.
There are tumblr hate accounts that do nothing but troll for destiel friendly posts and reblog to bash them. Misha friendly or destiel friendly tweets are attacked on convention hashtags. I can’t enjoy a convention without seeing Destiel or Misha hate or there being some sort of wank about how horrible all destiel fans are and I’m tired of the absolutist viewpoint that shippers=troublemakers and are always to blame when shippers have been treated with unconscionable rudeness and lack of respect from fans who claim to be better fans.
The hate is taken to the people who make the show and to the actors. This is beyond not affecting us just by ignoring. Tweets calling for Castiel’s death at Dean’s hand, or dictating that the writers had better stay focused on the brothers because that’s all that matters. They’ve bashed Misha to the writers. There’s been a number of tweets asking why he hasn’t been fired yet.
My main point: this is affecting things regarding participation in fandom in general, in shared spaces. This is beyond people’s personal dislike of a character or ship. Add to that the aggressive True Fan gatekeeping rhetoric. The end result is an unwelcoming environment, while people keep wondering why we’re annoyed and why we feel unwelcome. If we protest against the aggressive hostility, we’re accused of being troublemakers.
Some non-engagement and not letting it provoke reaction isn’t a bad idea however (because it is designed to provoke, to make others uncomfortable, in the hopes of making them go away).[/quote]
I guess I just have a different temperament. I have friends on Twitter that hate my TVD ship and my favorite character. I’m not a fan or their favorite either. It doesn’t negatively affect our interactions at all. I can’t imagine internalizing their hatred for a fictional character or ship. It seems that the people complaining constantly about seeing hate want to see hate everywhere.
I actually have the SPN hashtag muted on my TL because I don’t want to read the same stuff over and over again. I think Tumblr has a similar feature but I’m not positive about that since I don’t have a Tumblr.
[quote]There is a time and a place to debate subjects. I would enjoy debating the merits of my view (I just enjoy debating in general). And would welcome hearing any civil POV, even though I doubt either of our views would change but the discussion could still be illuminating. (though it probably ought to be on a more appropriate thread) But accusing everyone who doesn’t agree with you of bullying is extremely unproductive.[/quote]
Briefly, I just wanted to say (as compared with yours) I have quite different opinions about the show, but I also very much appreciate the way you wrote your comment. Thank you for being respectful!
I enjoy a good debate, in an appropriate situation, and I’d say you’re just the type of person I’d love to discuss our differing opinions with (I’m easy to find on tumblr or twitter, if you’re similarly interested). I do hope we can help cultivate this type of atmosphere for discussions within the fandom.
Hi everyone! Great article Ardeospina.
I’ve always taken the view that I don’t mind what other people think or do or if they see a show or any piece of work for that matter differently than I do. I’ve always figured that there’s no need to be bothered by whatever(ahem) float’s a person’s boat.
I’m not generally a shipper by nature, preferring to stay within the canon of what’s presented to me, but I’ve read many wonderful, well-written fanfictions (not from SPN though, cause I’m still wading through the stuff without any ships! There’s just so damn many of them!) from other fandoms that contain popular ships that I might not necessarily support.
One thing that does tend to make me see a little bit of red is the word ‘should’, especially when used in the context of fans saying this is how things should be or should’ve happened, etc. I know it more or less comes down to arguing semantics really, but I’ve always thought the better way to put stuff like that would be to say “This is what I wanted to happen” or “This is what I wished X had said”, something like that. Saying this is how things should be, somehow seems to connote that you have the right to dictate what should and should happen, who people should and shouldn’t like, and that’s never sit well with me. Naturally, every fan has the right to say when they didn’t like anything, but to me, that doesn’t mean you have the right to tell someone you think “they did it wrong.”
First, I just want to say that I am glad this article was posted, as it makes things feel more balanced now than it would have if it had just been the one on non-shipping, by itself. I know I am not the only one who felt that piece smacked a bit of condescension, and it makes me feel much better seeing both viewpoints represented and discussed side-by-side.
[quote]Hi everyone! Great article Ardeospina.
I’ve always taken the view that I don’t mind what other people think or do or if they see a show or any piece of work for that matter differently than I do. I’ve always figured that there’s no need to be bothered by whatever(ahem) float’s a person’s boat.
I’m not generally a shipper by nature, preferring to stay within the canon of what’s presented to me, but I’ve read many wonderful, well-written fanfictions (not from SPN though, cause I’m still wading through the stuff without any ships! There’s just so damn many of them!) from other fandoms that contain popular ships that I might not necessarily support.
One thing that does tend to make me see a little bit of red is the word ‘should’, especially when used in the context of fans saying this is how things should be or should’ve happened, etc. I know it more or less comes down to arguing semantics really, but I’ve always thought the better way to put stuff like that would be to say “This is what I wanted to happen” or “This is what I wished X had said”, something like that. Saying this is how things should be, somehow seems to connote that you have the right to dictate what should and should happen, who people should and shouldn’t like, and that’s never sit well with me. Naturally, every fan has the right to say when they didn’t like anything, but to me, that doesn’t mean you have the right to tell someone you think “they did it wrong.”[/quote]
Haha, you sound like my kind of person 😉 I end up arguing semantics with people all the time….I am all for freedom of speech and accepting others opinions, but I often thing that, if people were more conscientious about *what* they are saying and *how* they are saying it, especially on the internet where there is no tonal indicator and things can easily be misconstrued, that it would go a long way in diminishing certain arguments. Unfortunately, the instinct for most people is to blame the person who has misinterpreted their statement, rather than taking the responsibility on themselves and acknowledging that they could have said it better and trying to clarify their true intent.
I know I have often been rubbed the wrong way by certain turns of phrase. “If this happens, *insert character here* will be ruined” is one that I have harped on about at length, since it’s often used in conjunction with arbitrary actions and can carry some really loaded moral implications that may or may not have been intended and can certainly come across as offensive or hurtful in the eyes of others.
[quote]The problem comes from one of us trying to force our views on other fans or writers. An opinion being in the minority or not being represented on the show, does not mean the view is being persecuted. I’ll admit to not paying much attention to tweets or tumblr. So I don’t usually notice until someone like Adam Glass tweets how upset he is over being accused of queer baiting and who knows what else. And how he doesn’t appreciate the same being said about his friends and writers.
There is no excuse for that. None. .[/quote]
Amen to that. It’s one thing to say I did or did not like what was on the show. It’s another to harass a writer and tell him he is morally compromised if he doesn’t fulfill your ship.
Not only was I shocked to hear about those tweets from Adam Glass- I’ll never understand how people think that offending the man so DEEPly- will lead to him wanting to do them favors.
[quote] It seems that the people complaining constantly about seeing hate want to see hate everywhere.[/quote]
I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding you but are you suggesting we’re making all of this up? Are you suggesting that when a Misha-hater barges into a conversation we might be having on Twitter to inform us that Misha Collins as a c***t, or to tell the writers he should be fired, we are seeing the hate in that tweet because we “want” to? I
If you are, I would suggest to you that a tweet describing Misha as a c***t and/or calling for him to be fired is in fact a hate tweet.
Wow! And I thought the other shipping article thread was getting heated.
As a new fan who isn’t on twitter or as deeply engaged in the online community as many here seem to be, I’m certainly learning a lot. In the thoughtful articles and comments, I’m seeing the positive side of SPN fandom, the depth of intelligence and creativity and passion I’ve noticed before. But I’m also seeing the negative side, and it’s pretty scary. I very much hope the antagonism within the fandom can be reduced.
So, as a neophyte who loves Sam and Dean and Cas, and doesn’t ship any pairing in particular but enjoys various ships in fan fiction, here are my reactions (for what they’re worth).
1) There are a lot of very strongly worded comments in these threads in defense of Destiel and Cas and Misha, which really confused me because I don’t see anything in the articles that singles out Destiel fans for criticism and very little in the comments. However, I gather from what the D/C posters are saying that any suggestion that fans not talk to the show runners about what they would like to see on the show is interpreted by some Destiel fans as an attack on them.
2) Bardicvoice and some of the comment posters have eloquently expressed their view that fan pressure on a show’s creators can have a detrimental effect on the quality of the show. Their arguments are certainly worth pondering. Those who are not persuaded can respectfully disagree, and have a right (it’s a free speech issue, it seems to me) to continue communicating their preferences to the show runners — whatever those preferences may be — so long as they express themselves in a civil manner. I agree it is definitely NOT civil to imply the show runners are haters and homophobes unless they do as asked.
Ardeospina wrote, “I’m suggesting that maybe it’s time to stop caring so much about what other people think, what other people like, and just let them be. Let them find enjoyment as they see fit as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. It’s time to stop being so angry all the time.”
I very much agree. Each person has a responsibility to treat others with respect and civility. Each person also has a responsibility to recognize her own power and freedom, because the less threatened you feel, the easier it is to treat others well.
[quote]
As a new fan who isn’t on twitter or as deeply engaged in the online community as many here seem to be, I’m certainly learning a lot. [/quote]
If you read the comments from Cas and Destiel fans properly, you will see that the majority of us are deeply upset by bullying and by insulting tweets sent to us and to Misha by fans who identify as bro-only fans. The other article singled out “shippers” (read: Destiel fans) as having an aggressive agenda on Twitter while barely referencing the fact Wincesters are doing exactly the same thing when it comes to tweeting the writers. The person who wrote the other article is friends with those Wincesters, so hardly unbiased.
If you aren’t very active in online fandom then I think that might be why you aren’t fully informed about the bullying that’s going on.
Edited by Alice – Enough. This comment was reported to the moderator, and I’m editing. Elaina did nothing to earn this ire. Please simmer down if you want to post here. No one here is attacking Destiel shippers.
[quote]Wow! And I thought the other shipping article thread was getting heated.
As a new fan who isn’t on twitter or as deeply engaged in the online community as many here seem to be, I’m certainly learning a lot. In the thoughtful articles and comments, I’m seeing the positive side of SPN fandom, the depth of intelligence and creativity and passion I’ve noticed before. But I’m also seeing the negative side, and it’s pretty scary. I very much hope the antagonism within the fandom can be reduced.
So, as a neophyte who loves Sam and Dean and Cas, and doesn’t ship any pairing in particular but enjoys various ships in fan fiction, here are my reactions (for what they’re worth).
1) There are a lot of very strongly worded comments in these threads in defense of Destiel and Cas and Misha, which really confused me because I don’t see anything in the articles that singles out Destiel fans for criticism and very little in the comments. However, I gather from what the D/C posters are saying that any suggestion that fans not talk to the show runners about what they would like to see on the show is interpreted by some Destiel fans as an attack on them.
2) Bardicvoice and some of the comment posters have eloquently expressed their view that fan pressure on a show’s creators can have a detrimental effect on the quality of the show. Their arguments are certainly worth pondering. Those who are not persuaded can respectfully disagree, and have a right (it’s a free speech issue, it seems to me) to continue communicating their preferences to the show runners — whatever those preferences may be — so long as they express themselves in a civil manner. I agree it is definitely NOT civil to imply the show runners are haters and homophobes unless they do as asked.
Ardeospina wrote, “I’m suggesting that maybe it’s time to stop caring so much about what other people think, what other people like, and just let them be. Let them find enjoyment as they see fit as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. It’s time to stop being so angry all the time.”
I very much agree. Each person has a responsibility to treat others with respect and civility. Each person also has a responsibility to recognize her own power and freedom, because the less threatened you feel, the easier it is to treat others well.[/quote]
Welcome, Elaina! I don’t think you need to be intimately acquainted with on-line goings-on to either be a member of fandom or get the gist of what these articles are about. We all create our own fandom experiences, from shipping to participating in events to being the casual watcher. There really needn’t be animosity; it just depends upon who you ‘follow’ or ‘friend’, and what sorts of interactions you engage in. It’s actually pretty easy to avoid the fracas.
I agree; there’s no civility to name-calling and bullying. Hopefully, we can stop the sorts of interactions that result in insecurity and hurt feelings. It’s up to us to be good examples!
# 95 Maria, you seem to completely miss the point of most of these comments as well as the articles. It is not about who is doing the bullying or who is getting bullied!! It is about changing the atmosphere so that EVERYONE can be treated with respect. No one, either in the articles or the vast majority of the comments, has pointed fingers! We ALL need to work on this.
I’ve had complaints, so I’m gonna start editing. From now on, here are the ground rules.
– We get it. There’s bullying going on out there. I’m never, ever going to defend the actions of what some fans out there do on Twitter and Tumblr and such. It’s a bad situation and I sympathize.
HOWEVER, there has rarely if ever been bullying here, and I’m seeing a lot of uncalled for push back from people that doesn’t belong here. Destiel shippers, Wincest shippers, etc, no one was attacked here. So quit reading between the lines and picking fights where there are none to be picked.
Do not attack other posters. That is rule one here. I’m editing such comments that go along that line right away. No warnings.
QUIT being pissed off. I’m just going to say it. It’s a TV show. We love it, we obsess, but it’s a TV show. Remember, you’re dealing with real people here. We are not angry people on this site.
I have regular posters, people who come here on a regular basis to think of here. They’re the ones that don’t appreciate all this bickering, and they’re the ones I’m going to protect.
Thank you.
[quote][quote] It seems that the people complaining constantly about seeing hate want to see hate everywhere.[/quote]
I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding you but are you suggesting we’re making all of this up? Are you suggesting that when a Misha-hater barges into a conversation we might be having on Twitter to inform us that Misha Collins as a c***t, or to tell the writers he should be fired, we are seeing the hate in that tweet because we “want” to? I
If you are, I would suggest to you that a tweet describing Misha as a c***t and/or calling for him to be fired is in fact a hate tweet.[/quote]
No, that’s not my intention at all. I’ve been in the fandom since season 5 and what I’ve observed is that some fans (not one group in particular) seem to seek out comments to get upset about. Fans that constantly talk about hate 24/7 can be just as annoying as reading the hate. And they’re actively seeking it out.
As I said before my temperament is different so I don’t get upset by most viewpoints. But if I were sensitive to comments that would upset me I would avoid them. I know many fans loathe the TWOP message boards yet they read them all the time and react. I just don’t get this. That’s what I meant by fans complaining about hate actively seeking the hate out. It’s political in a way I guess. It would be like me reading right wing websites when I know that’s not my political leaning. I could read them, have grievances, and complain 24/7 about them but what would that accomplish for me. I don’t know but I think some fans enjoy doing just that-finding things to be wounded about.
quickreaver-Yes! You’ve summed up what I was trying to say. We can create our own fandom experience. Yes, seeing some things can be annoying but it doesn’t have to ruin our experience unless we let it.
Dean and Cas will NEVER be gay. Girls like you are obsessed and they give the impression that the only thing they like in the show is Destiel or Wincest. It pisses us guys off especially. I feel like Im alone in saying it but i know so many people who don’t watch the show because of you girls who stay ranting about gay sex
Maria wrote: “If you read the comments from Cas and Destiel fans properly, you will see that the majority of us are deeply upset by bullying and by insulting tweets sent to us and to Misha by fans who identify as bro-only fans.”
I do see that in the comments, and I’m very sorry that nasty remarks are being directed toward Destiel fans and Misha. But I’m trying to understand how that relates to the articles posted on this site, which appear to me to be advocating for less obsession and greater civility all around. The only connection I can see is that the articles argue against communicating shipping preferences to the show runners, and some D/C fans seem to take that as directed specifically against them. Your comment appears to confirm that:
“The other article singled out “shippers” (read: Destiel fans)”
As to the accusation that Bardicvoice is friends with aggressive Wincesters on Twitter, I have no way of judging what’s happening on Twitter. All I have to go on is the actual content of her article, and I am unable to perceive any antagonism toward Destiel shippers in particular.
You are completely right, I kind of ship destiel I’m not head over heels about it If Cas makes out with a girl i’m fine with it, if he makes out with a dude, i’m fine with it. I totally see your point. You have so much reason in this, it’s not even funny.
[quote]
Briefly, I just wanted to say (as compared with yours) I have quite different opinions about the show, but I also very much appreciate the way you wrote your comment. Thank you for being respectful!
I enjoy a good debate, in an appropriate situation, and I’d say you’re just the type of person I’d love to discuss our differing opinions with (I’m easy to find on tumblr or twitter, if you’re similarly interested). I do hope we can help cultivate this type of atmosphere for discussions within the fandom.[/quote]
Sorry for taking so long to reply. I been busy and then I got distracted by other SPN related things. I would be happy to discuss and debate your POV. The Let’s Discuss threads are pretty open on WFB as long as you stay within their basically guidelines. Which are basically just respecting the show, the characters and the others posters. Negative is fine. Just not bashing. (sorry if you already knew that).
The Dean Bromance or Bi (found in archives) thread might be appropriate if you want to discuss Destiel. Though it is VERY long and I’ve posted A LOT on there. 🙂 Or the What’s now for Castiel if you just want to discuss his role on the show. I am pretty busy right now so please don’t be offended by a delayed response.
Oh deary me, WHAT has happened to SPN? Is this normal for the beginning of a season? I have just gone onto a few sites and it just seems to be a massive global Dean Hate tsunami going on. I have read some Dean supporters begging Jensen to leave the show, I have seen Castiel haters begging the PTB to kick him off the show… and I am not even on twitter or tumbler? I think it is called. What is all this anxiety about exactly? I just want Dean to act like Dean but hey I LOVE the show anyway. I have been a lurker for about a year now and I have never seen it this bad. WOW!!
[quote]Oh deary me, WHAT has happened to SPN? Is this normal for the beginning of a season? I have just gone onto a few sites and it just seems to be a massive global Dean Hate tsunami going on. I have read some Dean supporters begging Jensen to leave the show, I have seen Castiel haters begging the PTB to kick him off the show… and I am not even on twitter or tumbler? I think it is called. What is all this anxiety about exactly? I just want Dean to act like Dean but hey I LOVE the show anyway. I have been a lurker for about a year now and I have never seen it this bad. WOW!![/quote]
I have my own theories about what’s going on in fandom but this isn’t a good place to air them! (I keep that stuff private, for good reason.) but I do think it’s interesting that you’ve noticed rampant Dean hate because I’ve seen almost none, and I’ve certainly seen no pleas for Jensen to leave the show. This really just goes to show how varied the fandom experience is, from person to person, and backs up my belief that we create our own fanworld. We tend to find what we look for.
@106 Quickreaver: I would love hear your theories on what’s up with fandom. Please feel free to discuss them here! You won’t be shot down I promise, as long as you observe the ethical rules. I don’t think I have ever seen such a menacing cat amongst such a menacing bunch of pidgins before!!
[quote]@106 Quickreaver: I would love hear your theories on what’s up with fandom. Please feel free to discuss them here! You won’t be shot down I promise, as long as you observe the ethical rules. I don’t think I have ever seen such a menacing cat amongst such a menacing bunch of pidgins before!![/quote]
I would love to read that too! Every opinion, put in a respectuful way, is welcome.
Oh, man, Ale and Kaz, I dunno! It’s gonna be taken offensively no matter how I couch it, I’m afraid. I’ll try to put it in non-specific terms, I guess.
First off, I totally agree that everyone should ship whom they want. If you don’t wanna ship? Hey, that’s great too. I think it’s kinda awful for our ships, however, to be foisted upon the folks running the show. It’s cool to tweet “I love seeing X and Y together!” but it is NOT cool to lob attacks: “If you don’t get X and Y together then you’re (insert slur here).” The latter happens, other fans get protective and defensive and equally uncouth, and it all blows up into bickering.
It’s the way of the internet. Hyperbole, misinterpretation, sometimes stuff just gets plain made-up with no basis in fact, opinion is taken as truth, and then we forget that there’s an actual person at the other end of the keyboard.
Additionally, I’m a huge proponent of letting a creator create the property they want or need to. I’m an illustrator by trade; I work with art directors all the time and must balance my own drive to do a good, honest job with the needs of the client. This goes doubly so for a television show. It doesn’t matter how emotionally invested any quarter of fandom is in any particular ship, if said plot point doesn’t work for the show (for whatever reason, be it controversy or theme or network opinion or simply the storyline itself), then it probably won’t happen. Now, I won’t say it could NEVER happen, because a TV show isn’t like a play; television is a living medium. It’s not all pre-written and just waiting to be performed. An entire season isn’t set in stone and then simply told.
I love discussing stuff, but when there’s too much emotional investment going on, things can flare up so fast. There’s also a lot of “you will never convince me otherwise” happening. At which point, conversation is undoable unless everyone’s just typing agreement back and forth.
I couldn’t even begin to tell you why the SPN fandom is so fiery! But that’s a little bit of why I love it. So much zeal! We relate to these characters so hard, it’s sometimes difficult to separate the needs of the show from our own emotional needs. And that might be the crux of it.
Have I bored the dickens out of everyone yet? 😉
[quote]Oh, man, Ale and Kaz, I dunno! It’s gonna be taken offensively no matter how I couch it, I’m afraid. I’ll try to put it in non-specific terms, I guess.
First off, I totally agree that everyone should ship whom they want. If you don’t wanna ship? Hey, that’s great too. I think it’s kinda awful for our ships, however, to be foisted upon the folks running the show. It’s cool to tweet “I love seeing X and Y together!” but it is NOT cool to lob attacks: “If you don’t get X and Y together then you’re (insert slur here).” The latter happens, other fans get protective and defensive and equally uncouth, and it all blows up into bickering.
It’s the way of the internet. Hyperbole, misinterpretation, sometimes stuff just gets plain made-up with no basis in fact, opinion is taken as truth, and then we forget that there’s an actual person at the other end of the keyboard.
Additionally, I’m a huge proponent of letting a creator create the property they want or need to. I’m an illustrator by trade; I work with art directors all the time and must balance my own drive to do a good, honest job with the needs of the client. This goes doubly so for a television show. It doesn’t matter how emotionally invested any quarter of fandom is in any particular ship, if said plot point doesn’t work for the show (for whatever reason, be it controversy or theme or network opinion or simply the storyline itself), then it probably won’t happen. Now, I won’t say it could NEVER happen, because a TV show isn’t like a play; television is a living medium. It’s not all pre-written and just waiting to be performed. An entire season isn’t set in stone and then simply told.
I love discussing stuff, but when there’s too much emotional investment going on, things can flare up so fast. There’s also a lot of “you will never convince me otherwise” happening. At which point, conversation is undoable unless everyone’s just typing agreement back and forth.
I couldn’t even begin to tell you why the SPN fandom is so fiery! But that’s a little bit of why I love it. So much zeal! We relate to these characters so hard, it’s sometimes difficult to separate the needs of the show from our own emotional needs. And that might be the crux of it.
Have I bored the dickens out of everyone yet? ;)[/quote]
quickreaver, I agree with everything you said. Especially this:
“We relate to these characters so hard, it’s sometimes difficult to separate the needs of the show from our own emotional needs. And that might be the crux of it.”
I tend to have a problem with that. When I was a teen (about a couple of decades ago), I used to get so envolved with the stories in books that my mother got concerned sometimes, since I so frequently went to be bed late at night sobbing uncontrolaby, if something tragic I didn’t want to happen, happen.
With time, I learned to control myself. After all, you have to focus in your life and on your loved ones – it is in this world that you can make a difference. The rest is just a sweet escape.
Nevertheless, I don’t know what I will do if Sam and Dean die at the end. It will be the worst thing for me. I guess I will need a couple days off to regroup.
Thanks for posting your thoughts!
@ Quickreaver @ Ale
I agree ship to your hearts content! Never knew what the word meant until my daughter told me (she used to ship Merther until the show ended, she was 14 at the time, and still feels the pain of her two fav characters not being together, poor Merlin is still waiting for Arthur). So yes, I actually enjoy it for the fans when I see a scene that has Dean looking at Cas or vice versa! I suppose you can say I ship the brotherhood bond. I feel the vast majority of shippers are respectful and not in your face, however what amazes me is the small dedicated shippers who tweet and expect the show to include [i]their[/i] fantasies. I just don’t understand this for 2 reasons. At the time an episode airs, they are filming what about 7 or 8 episodes in advance, so how can the show possibly include feedback from fans from an episode that aired so long ago. So when Cas was kicked out of the bunker (sob, howl, wail) J2’s were filming I think it was episode 9 or something? If the reactions to something that happened 7 episodes before influenced future episodes, the story would make no sense, so I don’t know what some shippers are expecting? The second reason I don’t get it is that the few dedicated tweeting shippers wanting to have the show go in a certain direction that was never intended in the first place. It just seems to futile to me.