The Mechanic From A Family of Mechanics
Heroic Man of Secrets
Or
Dammit John! What the hell did you know?!
What did you know John? How much? When did you begin to suspect? At what point did the first dribbles of suspicion and information make it to your hyper paranoid, intelligent and terrified mind? These questions, and more, are questions I doubt the show I love will EVER answer for me. But they haunt me more than any other strayed away plot point.
And ever since ‘Swan Song’, another unanswered question has wandered into my mind. Did part of John’s unease and drive come from a warrior’s gut feeling of being hunted? Sammy was being hunted. He was being pursued and watched early on in his childhood. Teachers, acquaintances, girlfriends and who knows who or what else watched. Did John’s senses pick up on this? Could it have played upon his obsession even more? His fear of Sam going away to college, where he would be alone and unsafe, very well could only stem from John’s single minded grief. But could it have also been an unknown and unknowable intuition of true danger for his youngest? Either way, if it were simple paranoia or a deep seated suspicion, I would like to point out that John, in this, was right. He was so very wrong in so much else, but in fearing for Sam, he was spot on.
For nearly four years he didn’t call his youngest, he didn’t knock on his door; leave a note, a voicemail…nothing. Instead he chose to drive by once in a while (stalk much John?) and brag about him when possible. All the while he was doing this, he did not give a portion of this fatherly attention to his eldest. He did not only make a wrong action, he lived wrong on that action for four years. Wrong piling upon wrong.
Give the man credit, he certainly knew how to wreak havoc.
“Our dad could.”
I have given his actions a lot of thought. Why did John act as he did? Why did he separate himself from Dean with no word? Why did he keep contact with the boys so minimal? Why did he claim protection while sending them on dangerous hunting missions? I tried my best to step into his boots, with the little we do know, think his thoughts, and reason his reasons.
How frightening, how terrifying, how panic inducing would it be to find out that your worst fears were minimal when compared to the truth? His fear is a reason I believe John went haring off without Dean. Not a fear of Dean being physically hurt, but a much worse fear. He did not want to pass on his own newly found terror to his eldest.
John was well aware of the bond between his sons. He was witness to its development after all. In the way he emphasized the importance of family, he was a part of its forming. He knew his boys, very well. We, as viewers, rarely have seen John with Sam and Dean, especially their younger selves. In the role we see on screen he is either gone, leaving or angry. But I look to the silences and unfilled blanks. This is the man who drove them for miles as they played or squabbled in the seats of the Impala. He taught them how to shoot a gun/crossbow, knife fight, use their fists, drive a car, run a con, make fake IDs, impersonate various professionals, lie to the cops, read a map, conduct research, recognizance, how to remain invisible to the system, get past alarm systems, and cover their tracks. He also taught an appreciation for classic rock, probably spent hours with Dean under the hood of the Impala, how to shave, how to not clean a motel room, find a derelict building to squat in, got them their first drink, gave them THE TALK about the birds and the bees, familial loyalty, reverence for Mary and a willingness to sacrifice for strangers. My point, he spent a whole lot of time with his sons, not just apart from them. Granted, the majority of this time was spent turning them into Hunters, but he was around them enough to know and understand how important they were to each other.
And knowing that bond, I believe he did not want to ruin it.
“He said that I might have to kill you Sammy.”
John somehow came to the conclusion that his baby boy may need to be killed. For the safety of mankind. Can you imagine having that piece of knowledge riding around in your head?
No really. Imagine it. Are you a parent? Or if not a parent, think of someone you love. Love more than yourself. Now try, just try to think of how it would be, to become utterly convinced that that loved one might have to be put down.
So John has kicked over this ugly stone and now has a suspicion in his mind, and he has a choice. Does he go back to Dean, faithful, obedient Dean, and look him in the eye? No, no he does not. How could he? How could he possibly tell his eldest this piece of knowledge? Hide it from him then? Dean followed orders, but John was well aware of Dean’s intelligence. If John let him in on the trail, Dean probably would have started putting two and two together. The fear and suspicion John felt, while hating to feel it, is something that he would not want Dean to know. How could he possibly contaminate the bond between his boys? So instead he split. He found the trail of Yellow Eyes. He needed to find the demon and the entire truth about the plans for his son Sam. He needed to stop things before they got worse.
Filled with revenge, fear, and a protective need to shield his sons, John went solo. He was not primarily protecting his sons from danger. He was protecting them from knowledge that could drive a wedge between them. But unbeknownst to him, Sam was having visions, DemonBrady lay in wait, and Jessica was scheduled to die.
And when Jess did die, on the ceiling as Mary did, that would have been a huge signal of confirmation. Yellow Eyes was after Sam. No way was that coincidence. The thing John feared was true. But as he told Missouri in “Home”, he evidently did not yet know the entire truth and must have felt desperate to find it.
“Saving people. Hunting things. The family business!”
John had his life turned upside down when a monster invaded his home. And being the sweet sensitive man he was, though later tried not to be, it may be he saw ‘civilians’ as who he used to be. He needed to protect them because no one had protected him. (This is of course separate from his issues of guilt that doubtless surrounded Mary’s death.) John raised Sam and Dean so that they were infused with a marrow deep instinct and need to protect others. Considering everything they are willing to do for strangers, it was core in their upbringing and comes as naturally as breathing. (I still remember my sense of shock during ‘Hammer of the Gods’ when the boys first impulse was to save the poor saps in the freezer. I’d forgotten all about them!)
And I think we all remember Dean’s conversation with John’s grave in ‘What is and What Should Never Be.’ That seems to sum up John’s education of his children quite well. “Them first.” Revenge and self sacrifice were apparently very high on John’s list of life rules.
But that still doesn’t explain how John, the man who taught the importance of family, would be willing to consider the murder of his son.
I again reference Sam to learn about his father. Sam has been known to look at the bigger picture. So I assume John would do that as well. Now again my mind is asking how much John knew, but it HAD to be a lot for him to consider killing Sam to be an option. The big picture must have loomed large.
But still, the mind screams “This is Sammy??” How dare he, that bastard!
“You know the truth, right? About Sammy? And the other children?”
“Yeah. I’ve known for a while.”
So let’s break this big picture down to a personal level. What if it was your town hit by an earthquake? What if your family died in a strange and unnatural disaster? What if you found out that it never would have happened if a young man had not accidentally let Lucifer out of his cage? How many people have died because of the wrong decisions made by Sam?
When I think of it in that light, I find myself reconsidering. Especially since, (and please remember, I’m pretending this universe is real) I wouldn’t actually know the Winchesters or anything about them. So one of their lives against the lives of those I love? I think I’d vote to kill the boy off. Sorry Sam.
And John, seeing a big picture, had to weigh the lives of those unknown sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, wives, husbands, loved ones, against the life of his son. I doubt that John knew the Apocalyptic end game. But he did see a tide of death if he couldn’t save Sam. His was a logical mind. It follows that considering murdering his son came from a logical conclusion. A painful one. I cannot imagine how it must have hurt him to come to that conclusion. And that conclusion led to three choices. Spill Sam’s blood. Watch the blood of many be spilled. Save Sam.
“I mean, come on you can’t, you can’t leave me here alone with dad, we’ll kill each other, you know that.”
This one was the hardest yet for me to find any empathy for. How the hell could John say that to Dean? Seriously? Seriously?! Dammit John! WHY would you do that?? WHY?? It was cruel beyond measure.
It took me a long time to come to peace with John over this one. It was those words of Sam’s to Dean as he lay in a coma “..we’ll kill each other…” and my mind slowed down. Wait a minute. Wait just one minute.
John knew of the bond between the brothers. He loved both of his sons, and he also knew, just as Sam knew, that he and his youngest did not get along. We see Dean wandering the halls of the hospital, hunting the Reaper. We see Sam desperately searching for an answer. And we see John, thinking.
There was his eldest, dying in a hospital bed. There was his youngest, railing against him. There was the something he knew. That day in the hospital, I believe John was not only contemplating the loss of one son, but of both. John knew, he knew, that he couldn’t save Sam. And I think he was right.
Let’s play the ‘what if’ game. (Granted, a rather dangerous and infinitely ended game. But bear with me.) What if John did not make the deal? Dean would have either died and gone with Tessa, or died and become a spirit. What followed wouldn’t be too difficult to imagine. Yellow Eyes would have continued priming his ‘favorite’. Considering the flexibility both heaven and hell have displayed while manipulating destiny, the highlights of Sam’s road probably would not have changed that much. I’d bet the Devils Gate would have still been opened, allowing Lillith and the others out. Ruby would have shown up in one form or another, only instead of a strong brother bond to try to worm her way between, she would have had ripe pickings in the already fractured relationship between John and Sam. Ruby was a Master at manipulation. Man I hate her but she was good. A real talent. How long would it have taken her to coax Sam away from his Father? Not long I think. Not with Sam grieving for Dean. Not with John grieving for Dean. Not with those two men being as similar as they were. I think they would have clashed and clashed hard.
So there is John, knowing Dean is dying and knowing there is no clean way to fix things. And there is John, knowing that there is no way he’ll be able to save Sam. So he makes a decision, takes the Colt, and gives Yellow Eyes a call. He did not go down to that basement with the intent of selling his soul. That was not the plan. But desperate times…and John decided to exchange his soul to save Dean, and the hope of saving Sam.
“With what?”
“There’s something else that I want, as much as that gun. Maybe more.”
But still, none of that excuses what John next did to Dean. No, no excuses at all. But I asked myself what I would have said and came up against a brick wall.
John suddenly finds himself with very little time left to live. He has what, perhaps an hour, before he will be in hell. For eternity. To never again hope to see Mary. To never again see his boys. To never have a chance to exact vengeance. To die. To suffer. To become a hell tortured soul.
Soak it in John. But don’t panic. You can’t panic yet, because you can’t let your sons know. And besides, you can’t leave Dean completely in the dark. No, a message has to be passed on to look out for Sammy. But how to say it? How to express it without obliterating the bond between them?
He had very little time to phrase those words. Trudge up the stairs, maybe sit for a few minutes in the stair well, tuck the Colt behind his belt, find Dean’s room, see that he is alive, say goodbye to Sam, say goodbye to Dean and then…and then lay a burden on Dean like none other. Walk out of the room, clear the tears from eyes, face the Demon, lay down the Colt and die. Welcome to hell John Winchester. They have been waiting for you.
One quick side note. John basically walked into hell. He walked to the gates of hell for love of his sons. John, you stubborn, stupid, magnificent bastard.
What John told Dean was inexcusable. But, (and I almost hate putting that ‘but’ in) he was a bit preoccupied at the time. There were some heavy things on his mind. Terror and panic must have screamed and scrabbled at the edges of his sanity. All he had to cling to was the love he had for his sons, his old habits of doing things alone, and keeping his secrets. The three combined into the messy stewpot of instructions he left for Dean.
Just one more opinion on this incident. While John’s deal was for his sons in many ways, in one way I think it was just as selfish as Dean’s deal. John was tired. John was running. He could not handle the idea of killing Sam. He could not handle the idea of outliving Dean. It was too much, so he passed the baton to Dean. He gave up, rolled over and died. Hell was preferable to a world without his sons. See, he knew, he knew better than anyone, that Dean was the better man. He allowed himself this cowardice, knowing his son would finish what needed to be finished.
great article very insightful.
An oldie but a goodie! A terrific article about a very unique, driven and misunderstood man who loved his sons and unfortunately never had the chance to show them just how much.
Great article and character study. One of my favorite things about this show is the fact that all the characters are so flawed and so raw and so human. Many shows try to make their main characters into caricatures giving them pronounced good and bad traits. Supernatural is brave enough to show these men and all their facets.; some more attractive than others, but all real, human, and relatable.
At times it can be hard to watch their struggles with each other, the terrible choices they must make and trying to battle their own demons. But, it is the feelings the writing and acting evoke in the audience, that are a testament to how beautifully brought to life the Winchesters are.
This article was as good the second time around as it was the first time I read it, and it’s hugely relevant in light of how John has been portrayed in recent seasons.
John is probably one of the most polarising characters on SPN in that viewers either seem to love him or loathe him (much like his sons!). I’m one of those who (thinks she….) can understand the decisions he made to try and keep his family together and safe. His focus was to keep his family alive, and I think the longer he hunted and the more he learned about Sam and about Mary’s past, the more convinced he became that what he was doing was the only thing to do. ‘Better to be alive and unhappy than dead’ is an attitude that all three Winchesters have, and have shown via their various familial situations over the years.
Part of me feels that the longer he went on, it became more about protecting his family from what was coming, than avenging Mary’s death mainly because (in my cynical mind) I find it unrealistic that a coerced relationship would inspire that level of obsession.
Everyone has their issues about certain parts of the show and things they’d like to see happen. I’m one of those who’d love some, not necessarily closure, but some level of peace in relation to John and his relationship with his sons. There has never been a consensus with them because when Sam was at odds with his father, Dean idolised the guy. By the time Sam found peace with John, Dean had turned against him. Both boys are their fathers sons. (Is that even grammatically correct? Stupid tired brain.) While they might have inherited some of his worst traits, they also epitomise some of his best. Hopefully they will, at some stage, get to a stage where they are happy enough with who they are to realise that.
It saddens me that over the years; John’s role in his son’s life has been diminished and twisted to advance other characters. It bothers me that he has been replaced in his son’s, and the shows, estimation so easily by Bobby. It’s strange that the limited John that we actually got to see, whether it be young John or hot (sorry older) John was a far cry from the man he’s been made out to be in recent years. Maybe it was just the spark that the three actors had when they were working together but you (or I….) always got the sense that on-screen John loved his sons but when he’s written about in his absence, Sam and Dean almost seem like an inconvenience to him. I dunno….. It bugs me but hey, while there are articles such as this out there to address the equation that is John, I’m happy.
On an aside, I’m surprised that you that you didn’t make profound comment on how infernally hot the guy is (cos he really, really is) but hey, I can live with that. More for me!!
Thanks Naismith (and Alice for the repost).
While I totally agree about him being hot (how could I not), I never really cared that much for him from season 1 and almost completely wrote in off in season 2 for telling Dean he might have to kill Sam, which was cruel to both sons. In some ways though I have soften towards him slightly in 4 and 5, maybe because the show was hard on him. I always thought he did he best though, I just wasn’t that impressed with his best.
I really enjoy this article though and will try to give him another chance when I rewatch.
Hi Naismith.
A really fascinating article on the matriarch of the Winchester household.
I’m on the side of those fans who love John, warts and all. He was nowhere near perfect or at times even decent but he sure did love those sons of his and did what he did out of love. I agree that the biggest sign of his goodness was how good his boys grew up to be. Both different in their ways but both good, well intending people who save others.
And John is a lot like Sam, which is another thing I love about him. I loved his obsessive streak just as I love Sams obsessiveness, I like men that are driven, it can be a good thing just as it can be a bad, bad thing. And both those men have shown both sides of that coin and it’s been a very interesting (and polarizing) aspect of both characters. And has made them very human as much as controversial.
I’ve always been fascinated by how they are so ‘real’ in this kind of unreal universe. Their world is gritty and dusty and they wear the same clothes over and over, their blue collar, on the road- lifestyle is so tangiable yet unattainable but still, real. I really like what the creators and all did and do to pull this of week by week.
And like Tim above, I’m upset over the treatment John W. has been getting in the late years. I’d love if they’d throw in little good bits about him too, not just the bad. I’m not saying they should put him on a pedestal but I’d like the boys to acknowledge that he was their father, he did love them and that he did something right. Also, this constant ‘Bobby is their father’ -stint which has been going on for some years and even been emphasized by making John look bad has actually made me resent Bobby more than John. I don’t like anyone else taking his place. I can also be quite obsessive about my Winchester boys 🙂
But in the end of the day, I believe what you wrote above. He was a good man put into an impossible situation and he did what he did to make his family safe. He was a bastard yet a desperate man with a broken heart. A man driven but determined. A man who loved his family and a man who died for his family. If the boys ever get to see him again (and they better!!), they should do to him what Ellen did to Dean in Good Good Y’All: slap the hell out of him and then give him the biggest hug. He has earned both. Then they can grab a beer and share watery eyed glances of proudness and pretend not to notice while sharing a few laughs. And then Mary’d bring them freshbaked pie on the porch. In the sun set. And be at peace.
Oh, sorry, caught in the moment for a minute there 🙂
But yeah, a great article for a great man. Thanks.
Crap. A PATRIARCH was meant, not a matriarch. John Winchester is definitely NOT a woman.
[quote] John Winchester is definitely NOT a woman.[/quote] Unless, of course, he just wanted to break free, huh Supernarttu….
Shut up Tim 😆
Hey, which one do you think is which?
[img]http://www.jouwpagina.nl/fotos/queen_uwstart_nl/queen%2013.JPG[/img]
I’m thinking, left to right, Adam, Sam, John and Dean.
😀 My god! I think you’re right!
– Adam would look just as pissy since he’s dead and never got to wrestle with his brothers.
– Sam with his Venus De Milo -pose would wear curlers with that shaggyhair of his.
– John would do the vacuuming being the über-Winchester household matriarch (with an M this time).
– Dean just looks very cool and rock’n’roll 😆
Seriously, I can’t believe I didn’t see it before.
There’s Adam with the little blondey head up on him wearing a school uniform because he’s the youngest so he’s still in school.
Sam, the tallest, dressed in silk like the princess he is. And it [i]has[/i] to be him because he’s the only Winchester who puts that much effort into his hair. (Forget everything I previously said I wanted to see in season 8. The [i]only[/i] thing I want next season is for Sam and Dean to open the trunk of the Impala and there, lying amongst the bottles of holy water and machetes and shotguns and piranhas and lightsabres we see….. Sam’s ghd)
Next up is John, the only Winchester masculine enough to rock the baby pink and leather look, and, as we can see here, the founding father of Winchester facial hair. (And look at the manly authority he’s showing by the way he’s handling that vacuum cleaner. Grrrrr.)
And last but not least there’s Dean, wearing a jacket (um, coat….. What? It’s winter in the photo) that has become synonymous with his name. And if you squint he’s wearing something around his neck which is probably the amulet. (You see, he didn’t dump it. He’s just hasn’t been wearing it for the past 2 ½ years because it clashes with his outfit.) Plus, in that photo he’s a bit of a painted whore so it’s definitely him!
Wow, this is one rare Winchester family photo. It’ll go for a freaking fortune on eBay.
Txs for the redo. I never saw it.Just joined the age of comptr’s in 2010!
**”John was well aware of the bond between his sons. He was witness to its development after all. In the way he emphasized the importance of family, he was a part of its forming. He knew his boys, very well. We, as viewers, rarely have seen John with Sam and Dean, especially their younger selves. In the role we see on screen he is either gone, leaving or angry. But I look to the silences and unfilled blanks. This is the man who drove them for miles as they played or squabbled in the seats of the Impala. He taught them how to shoot a gun/crossbow, knife fight, use their fists, drive a car, run a con, make fake IDs, impersonate various professionals, lie to the cops, read a map, conduct research, recognizance, how to remain invisible to the system, get past alarm systems, and cover their tracks. He also taught an appreciation for classic rock, probably spent hours with Dean under the hood of the Impala, how to shave, how to not clean a motel room, find a derelict building to squat in, got them their first drink, gave them THE TALK about the birds and the bees, familial loyalty, reverence for Mary and a willingness to sacrifice for strangers. My point, he spent a whole lot of time with his sons, not just apart from them. Granted, the majority of this time was spent turning them into Hunters, but he was around them enough to know and understand how important they were to each other. “**
My fav part. Cool to think of thoses times with the 3 of them. Guess I relate, being a single Mom with 2 boys. I put the bikes together. I went to the football games. I (unfortunately for my boys) had the “sex” talk. I was no John Winchester, that’s for sure!!
I’ve never really been a John fan, so I really enjoyed this perspective and insights. While it didn’t vastly change my view of him, it did provide a clearer understanding of a complex character. I especially liked the idea that he could never leave that warrior’s view behind after Mary died because he was always on the front lines. I’d never really thought about him from that POV, so hopefully when I rewatch those early episodes I can more fully appreciate him.
Though I always saw himself as liking Dean more, maybe because he and Sam were closer in personality.
I geuss I’ll never understand is the third option John (and Dean) never chose. To talk to Sam about what he (they) knew. They didn’t trust in the boy (man) that they raised. Time and time again we all say hat a good man Sam is…a man who puts others before himself.
And yet his father didn;t trust sam with the truth…after all knowledge is power. and Sam could have prepared himself for a fight against evil
Sam did what John (and Dean) never trusted Sam to do that rainy night in Cold Oak. he said no to Azazel. he said no to evil and he turned his back on it. He stayed true to himself, his humanity.
Why couldn’t JOhn have trusted Sam? Trusted the goodness inside his son to prevail? Instead he alientated his son and made Sam doubt his families love, dount his place in his family.
I’ve often wondered why John didn’t give that last message to Sam as opposed to Dean. It did bother me that their focus was on ‘saving Sam’ as opposed to trusting Sam to save himself. Did John fully trust Sam? No, I don’t think did, neither did Dean. That’s not a slight against the guy, it’s just realistic thinking. The four years away from them, the idea that he never seemed to ‘fit’ the hunting life, the fact that he had run away before and that he wasn’t of the same mindset as them ie if it’s evil, kill it, must have all preyed on John’s and Dean’s mind. Add to that, much of their hidden fears about Sam were being realised in front of their eyes via the visions and (telekinetic) powers so there’s a part of me that thinks they believed that Sam would go evil. It might have been a fleeting though and they might have readily dismissed it but the thought [i]was[/i] there. And the thing is, no matter how much you trust your son/brother, and no matter how determined Sam was to [i]not[/i] turn, the tide of evil, if it sets its sights on you, is nigh on impossible to hold back. All the Winchesters knew that.
However, I also believe that much of John’s decision to say it to Dean as opposed to Sam was based on the ‘Save him’ aspect of the conversation. John knew that Dean would do everything in his power to save Sam, and Sam would listen [i]to[/i] him and work [i]with[/i] him in relation to it. I think that a big worry of John’s would be that if Sam got the message first then Sam wouldn’t be too concerned about ‘saving’; he’s go straight to the ‘killing’ to ensure that he would [i]never[/i] turn. If Dean knew first then he wouldn’t let that happen. I think that saying it to Dean as opposed to Sam was the only way to ensure that Sam might have a chance.
[quote]I geuss I’ll never understand is the third option John (and Dean) never chose. To talk to Sam about what he (they) knew. They didn’t trust in the boy (man) that they raised. Time and time again we all say hat a good man Sam is…a man who puts others before himself.
And yet his father didn;t trust sam with the truth…after all knowledge is power. and Sam could have prepared himself for a fight against evil
Sam did what John (and Dean) never trusted Sam to do that rainy night in Cold Oak. he said no to Azazel. he said no to evil and he turned his back on it. He stayed true to himself, his humanity.
Why couldn’t JOhn have trusted Sam? Trusted the goodness inside his son to prevail? Instead he alientated his son and made Sam doubt his families love, dount his place in his family.[/quote]
I’ve often wondered this myself. I think it was a huge mistake on John’s part to not trust Sam with the truth. Believing his father didn’t love him made him question everything John said to him and made him angry.
I love this article. I hadn’t happened to see it before. I have always adored John, flaws and all because flaws and all he obviously did something right or his boys wouldn’t have turned out so damn well.
I especially like the reasoning that John knew that HE couldn’t ‘save’ Sam. But that maybe Dean could. But John needed Dean to KNOW that Sam needed to be saved. The terrible message that he left with Dean did the job. And John was right. Dean did save Sam (ok its kinda been a work in progress, but he did it)
You know, if Dean had died, if John and Sam had been left alone, what do you bet that John would have said yes to Michael? And Michael & Samifer would have had their knock down apocolypse.
I think (in response to the poster above) that even if John had tried to talk to Sam about it at the time, Sam wasn’t ready to hear it, wouldn’t have responded well to John and it might well have made things worse by driving him even further away from the family.
Also from a purely practical standpoint — there wouldn’t have been much of a story if Sam didn’t take the journey. 😉
Oh wow. Thanks for the repost Alice!
@roslyn- Thank you
@Rmoats8621- In agreement and thanks!
@buffsgirl-That’s one of my favorite things about the show as well. Great show all around.
@Tim the Enchanter-Thank you, again. It would be awesome to get some sort of restart of the love between the boys and John. I also felt somewhat bummed at the recent bombardment against John. While I love Bobby (forever and forever love Bobby) Bobby played his own very important role. John was the Father and Bobby is the other Father. One doesn’t take the place of the other. I’ve never seen Bobby as taking John’s place…that’s impossible. Bobby is Bobby. Anyway, I would love to see some peace made with John.
And I am incredibly aware of the hotness of John the Elder? Thing is, John’s so hot that going on about it is simple redundancy. 😆
@Kelly-His best was not perfect, true. But his best still gave out some pretty awesome (and tall) results. He was tragically flawed.
@Supernarttu- Obsessive…yes. Yes indeed. Often harmful but oh so wonderful!
I agree, the reality of the characters is awesome! I believe it is the grounding of the people that make the Show so great. Without them, it would be just another hour of TV.
You’re quite right. John DOES NOT belong on a pedestal. But we are in agreement, he had much good going for him.
I’ve never compared Bobby to John or been upset that he has been put in the father figure role. They boys needed him there. I’m happy to have him there. Bobby filled a role that John didn’t or wouldn’t or couldn’t. I see him more as the mentor or as their godfather or uncle; John is irreplaceable. But that’s just my opinion. ?
@PENNY JAIME-Welcome to the computer age? Glad you enjoyed.
And big congrats on being ‘not a John Winchester’. As much as I love the guy, that is a good thing!
@KELLY- And this, this right here is one of the main reasons I wrote the article. I’m not looking for John converts, I totally get why folk dislike him. But as a way for another aspect to be appreciated. So YAY??
Funnily enough, I also have always seen him liking Dean more. He certainly trusted him more than he trusted Sam. Love now, John certainly loved both of them.
@Amy- This third option honestly did not occur to me when writing the article. Frankly, I don’t think that it would have occurred to John either. And if I have to be completely honest, I’m not so sure if Sam could have handled it all that well. Remember, even though Sam was/is an exceptional person, he was only 22. And his anger issues and obstinacy had not yet been smoothed with experience and time. As his father (and older brother) giving that knowledge to a (in his eyes) child would have seemed insane. And even if/though Sam could have handled it, it was their belief that it wouldn’t have been a good idea. Right or wrong, it’s what they believed. And I have to respect that.
Plus, as much as I feel like a low down dirty dog for writing this, while Sam did say no to Azazel, he said yes to Ruby. He said yes to Ruby KNOWING his father’s warning. KNOWING that Azazel had had plans for him. KNOWING where his gifts and the blood came from.
I love Sam I love Sam I love Sam. But he chose a demon. He chose the path to end the world. So maybe John wasn’t wrong. Just sayin!
@Tim the Enchanter part II- In agreement. I think. My brain begins to burn out but yes, in agreement overall.
@Mel-Thank you!
Oh man….John as Michael against Sam as Lucifer??! I DID NOT need that heartbreak image! Eep!
I don’t know if John would have said yes. He had the stubbornness of Sam…even more so. Actually wait, you’re right, he probably would have said yes to Michael since he was able to look at the big picture! Oh my gosh?? Thank goodness it was Dean, wonderful, beautiful, lovely Dean!
I agree he loved both his boys and I’m sure it killed him to say that Dean. I’m just not sure Sam thinks his dad loved him. He already had doubts in season 1, but his dad reassured him. And what a week or so later, his dad tells Dean he might have to kill him.
I have to think that brought up all those old doubts. I think Sam had to wonder if his dad wasn’t so much worried about his safety as worried about what he’d become. And he put so much on poor Dean and when he couldn’t live up to it he became filled up self-doubt. OPT. LOL. I do get TOO caught up with the boys.
Oh man…it’s always difficult to think about the harm John did to the boys’ hearts. Just to be clear, I am not positing that John didn’t make some HUGE mistakes. He did. I am not trying to excuse his behavior and the wreck, wrack and ruin he left behind him. No arguement.
As for Sam…I don’t know what he believes about his dad. The scene in “The Song Remains the Same” shows Sam at peace with his dad. Because they were so much alike, I am choosing to believe that Sam has come to a place where he gets why his dad did what he did. Note, I am saying CHOOSE to believe since this show breaks my heart in so many different ways that I look for relief when I can find it.
I loved that scene. But Sam just said he understood why his father better now and knew he did the best he could. Sam said he loved him. But I was left speculating on what Sam thought his father felt about him. Which is fine because it gives me something to obsess over. HA!
I agree, I think TSRTS does show that Sam understands why his father did what he did. He did what he did BECAUSE he loved his sons. So heartbreaking that Young John, unknowing, thinks poorly of the boys’ father, isn’t it? John tells Sam that it wasn’t the life he wanted for him.
Abel to look at it from a distance, I think Sam understands.
Yes, it was wonderful, beautiful, lovely Dean because John so loved his sons that he sacrificed his life and soul for them.
(I posted from a different computer today as ‘Mel’ but it’s me!)
I think the really interesting question now that I wish the Show would address is ‘Where is John Winchester?’ We saw him get out of hell. In DSOTM we learned he’s not in Heaven. So where is he?
(Yeah, yeah, I know. He’s running a hotel in Florida under an assumed name.)
Agreed! Would love to see that addressed!
Wherever John is, I hope he is with Mary and completely, ignorantly happy of the tradgey of his sons’ lives.
I have a difficult time being mad at John cause he WAS so messed up but my sympathy STILL lies with Sam. Imagine it. Think of Dean at 9 adn his PERCEIVED thought that John was looking at him different after the striga incident. Now….there’s Sam who KNOWS John is looking at him all fisheyed. KNOWS and FEELS that his father is for some reason distincing himself from Sam.
ALL Sam has is his family and he is being pushed aside while John adn Dean are this unit who confer and talk to each other. Its no wonder Sam felt like a freak within his own family; that he never belonged. Cause John was waiting for something Sam had no clue about. in HOME he begged…BEGGED Missouri for answers and was rebuffed. No one he trusted…. John….Dean….Missouri would talk to him…be honest with him…tell him the truth.
is it any wonder that Evil was able to manipulate Sam? He was isolated and alone even amidst his family. People …random demons entered his life unknown to him adn John probably whispering in his ear, making him feel more isolated and alone, feeling as if his family didn’t love him,, he didn’t belong.
Imagine John telling him the truth, telling him to watch out. Telling Sam he beleived in him. Sam put all his trust in Dean when he was 8 because he was finally told the truth…a truth he should have heard from his father.
I’m sorry what warning did he know from John? ALL John said was Sam had to be killed or saved. Thats not information …thats nothing. Thats like saying it might rain today when ther eis no clouds in the sky.
Once Azazel was dead. His plans were dead….to everyone’s thinking Except Dean who automatically belived everything a demon or Angel said about Sam. And No…Sam didn’t choose a path KNOWING it would end the world. he chosse a path beleiving he was SAVING the world yet ENDING himself.
Sam made some terrifble terrible mistakes and bad choices but i think in a way it was very Odipadal. Everything John and Dean did to ‘save’ Sam actually fulfilled the Angels and demons plans for Sam.
Lucifer and the Angels needed Sam to feel ostriced….feel like he didn’t belong within his own family; that they didn’t love him or trust him. They needed him to feel isolated and alone.
and John and Dean did all that and more by not trusting Sam, by not TALKING to sam and including him in decision that affected HIS life. his very SOUL. They were as much puppet masters pulling Sam’s strings as the Angels and demons have been.
Everyone keeps saying how good a person Sam is. Well, honestly I think he is as good as he is DESPITE his family. Imagine how awesome he would be if he had ONE person in his life who showed him trust; who actually believed in him.
Now on the childhood I always have more sympathy for Dean, because Sam had him. And Dean often didn’t seem to have anybody to look after him and he was just a kid too.
But my heart breaks when I of what Sam thought we he found out what John said to Dean. (see above) But I don’t think you can say John and Dean (esp Dean) didn’t help him become them man he is.
Yup. Yup and yup.
Oh don’t get me wrong. My sympathies are with Sam. And with Dean. John did wrong by them. Everything I wrote was not meant as a defense of John Winchester. I love the guy, I am a John woman. But my love is not blind. The well known fact is that John made some major mistakes as a father. So all your points to that, I will not argue with.
In my defense though, I never said that Sam chose his path KNOWING it would end the world. He chose that path because he believed it was the right path. But he was wrong. Even with all his intelligence and knowledge and experience, he became blinded by the bigger picture. He was manipulated by evil using the knowlege at his disposal.
I can’t argue what Sam would have done if his father had given him full disclosure. That is a what if game that has too many variables for me to feel comfortable playing.
While I love Sam ever so much, I believe we will have to agree to disagree that Sam became who he was despite his family. There, there is such a large gulf of opposing beliefs that I doubt either of us could cross it. And, frankly, it would probably be counter productive to argue it since I found my hackles rising a little over your calling John and Dean puppet masters! 😉 😕 So I respectfully disagree and will back away since I have no wish to get into an emotional wrestling match, with a doubtlessly lovely stranger, over a TV show. 🙂
Oops. This last comment was meant as a reply to Amy.
[quote]Oh don’t get me wrong. My sympathies are with Sam. And with Dean.[/quote]
Oh I know. I could tell by the article. I’m not a John woman. But if it helps, before reading this I had trouble understanding how anyone could be one. LOL. Seeing him from your POV I kind of get it. I think we just didn’t get enough time with him for me to feel like a had a good grip on who he was. And the stuff we did get was often not pretty, but probably if he was more fully explored I would come to love him as much as you. I certainly love Sam who is supposed to be a lot like him.
I do think Sam had Dean but Dean couldnt be a panacea to everything. I think 8 yr old Sam finding John’s journal learning the truth the way he did . did hit him I believe and it changed alot of perceptions for him.
Often there are those who hold it against Sam for lying but he didnt just pick that up. He trusted his dad and he and Dean well they were the biggest largest influence’s in Sam’s life .It was a difficult situation from John downwards I think.
Ohhhhh! Like generational trauma! Good point.
How awesome would it be to be introduced to John’s family to see what those family dynamics looked like?
Awwww…. 😳 😳 8)
I’m feeling all warm and fuzzy!
Sending you whichever Winchester hugs you prefer. Or angelic. Or demonic…basically name your hug and it’s coming your way.
As a newby to the show I enjoy reading all of the insightful things posted. I especially liked this piece on John. Although I was only introduced to the show in the last 6 months by a friend I have already watched Seasons 1-6 twice! And I have all on DVD.
I could never understand my 20 something children buying DVD’s of TV shows before. Now I totally get it! One has to connect deeply and as a mother of sons this show touches my heart in a way I never thought a TV show could. It aches for them.
As a Domestic Violence social worker I see one parent families all the time coping with life. Especially in the face of violence. One can never know what it is like unless we walk in their shoes EVERY day. We all do the best we can with the knowledge and coping skills we have. (Sorry for the reality check). And unfortunately good choices are not always made.
Thanks again for all the great insight everyone.