At “Death’s Door”, A Death Too Far
Sera Gamble can write a brilliant episode and she did with this one. Unfortunately, Sera also kills the characters off and she did that here too.
There was a movie in 1977 called A Bridge Too Far which was an adaptation of the novel by the same name; it was about a World War II military operation by the Allied troops; the operation failed. The book/movie title comes from a comment made by one of the generals (allegedly) in which he suggested, while the plan was being formulated, that they may be ‘going a bridge too far.’ For me, Supernatural (and by proxy, Sera Gamble) has gone a death too far.
I’m going to discuss this episode itself as well as what it shows me about the state of Supernatural. The episode is beautiful, the only flaws are in the ‘real time’ interactions between Dean and Sam for they tell the tale only too well of why it is dangerous and, for me, fatal that this show has decided to shrink its universe down to two characters only.
For a swan song for Jim Beaver this episode delivers! (I don’t even *need* to say that Jim Beaver delivers but oh, how he does!!!!)
I love that we had so much insight into how Bobby came to be, filling in so many blanks of his childhood, why perhaps he clashed with John as he did (not just in this episode but also as in how we first met him in Devil’s Trap), why the death of his wife has even deeper grief for him, “We never got to get past this.” Oh, the agony! We got to spend time with Bobby and Rufus (how I miss you, Rufus!) and I so enjoy the interplay of those two characters. (Need I even say Rufus’ death last season was pointless and unnecessary? No, I’m sure I don’t, some will agree with me, some won’t; however, I stand by my initial thoughts after his death, there was no point in it. Rufus died simply because Supernatural kills off characters.)
I love the memories of Bobby in his interactions with Sam and Dean, teaching Dean to play catch, listening to the brotherly bickering over movie night and the snacks…sob!!!!!
I find it distinctly poignant to realize that Bobby’s memories of Sam and Dean are clearly the memories from years in the past. There is a lightness to both Sam and Dean in those scenes that to me states loud and clear that those events in no way occurred after Sam’s return from hell, for there was no lightness and joy in Season 6 for either brother. I also do not believe that those memories could have occurred in Season 5 and find it doubtful that they occurred during Season 4 either. To me this is symptomatic of how dark, depressing and desolate Supernatural has become. And here is where I turn my thoughts to what this episode means for the state of Supernatural.
Do I believe Bobby is dead? Yes, wholeheartedly (and sorrowfully) I believe Bobby is dead. I believe the first inkling of Bobby’s death was in the destruction of Bobby’s house (never properly lamented) to the desperation and suicidal moment with Dean’s phone call (never properly acknowledged or built upon) to Bobby’s lame attempt (lame because of writing, not the character or the actor) to get Sam and Dean individually to ‘better’ places. This was all ways for the character to be seen as loosing everything and ‘putting things in order’ (ie Sam and Dean.)
In seasons past Supernatural had writers (of which Sera was one of them) that knew how to get at the core of the emotional issues and bring them out in beautiful ways, sometimes through humor, sometimes through gore, sometimes through chick/flick moments. For far too long however this show has decided to take the path of least resistance and simply bury the issues down, sweep them aside, gloss over them or simply pretend they never happened. Bobby’s house burns down, no worries, Sheriff Mills plays clean up for an episode and Bobby has all his books stashed at Rufus’ old hideout. Never mind that Bobby’s house was where he grew up, where he was married, where he killed his wife, where he met the Winchesters, where they at times lived…it was due a memorial in some manner; at least a few passing words. Nope, pretend it never was. Same thing with Dean’s near suicidal phone call to Bobby at the end of Episode 7.02; Dean gets a pat on the cheek and all is well.
Sam’s wall fell (thanks to Cas), let’s just gloss over that. A few moments of true brilliance but then, because the writers set themselves up for this epic fail of a storyline back when they planned (?) season 6, we’re all left with the occasional glimpse of a slightly wilted Sam pressing on his scarred palm. I was never a fan of the storyline because it could only ever be this awful upon execution. Sam never should have stayed in hell for multiple reasons: SPN writes its own rules on heaven and hell, thus it simply should have been God/Chuck delivering Sam from Lucifer’s cage, not a ‘confident’ Castiel, horrible retconning of all it took to break Lucifer from the box in the first place. I’d have rather explored the idea that a fully intact Sam decided to leave Dean to the apple pie life only to return when he realized the hunt was coming for Dean. That conflict would not have been great but I believe it would have come from the heart of Sam yearning for his brother to have some normalcy, as misplaced as allowing Dean to grieve Sam’s death would be it would have played better (to me) than this debacle.
I won’t even go into the mess of the Amy storyline but to say that the writers should have had Sam and Dean work together (with Dean only laid up with broken ribs for goodness sake, that would be slightly more believable) and Sam be totally truthful about letting Amy go and Dean being entirely honest and saying he trusted Sam and actually do it…TRUST. End of Amy, she’s out living with her son with fair warning that the Winchesters (Sam in particular) are watching. They let the witches live just a few weeks later, why not Amy?
The writers have found their niche in setting up ridiculous tension between the brothers and never truly clearing the air. I love Bobby and know that his attempts to get the brothers to be closer and heal would have been much better handled were they handled as they had been in the past. Bobby of all people knows that Sam and Dean are each other’s strength. Rather than counseling Sam to take care of himself and not worry about Dean he should have supported Sam’s concern for Dean. I know from experience when I am in despair and hurting I find healing and comfort when I can look past my own problems and help someone else in need. I’m comforted by being able to be useful and the sharing of pain truly does ease mine own. Also, Bobby, rather than shouting at Dean in anger telling him to ‘find a reason’ to get in the fight he should have known that Dean is always reached best when it is a near chick/flick moment. We saw such moments in AHBL II in the salvage yard, as well as in DALDOM when he thanks Dean for saving him from the dream root nightmare and again in The Curious Case of Dean Winchester when Dean opens up to Bobby about how important Bobby is to them…Bobby knows that deep down Dean like the gentle emotional moments and in those he responds.
Similarly the writers need to stop blocking Sam’s attempts but rather push through and have Sam actually be able to reach Dean; this would require the writers to also alter their writing for Dean and have him not so walled off and blocking and denying Sam’s every attempt. Sam reached Dean in “Everybody Loves A Clown” and “Croatoan” by being honest about his own pain and earnest in his desire to help Dean – we’ve not seen that in a long time.
“Death’s Door” showed such a contrast between Sam and Dean, Bobby’s memories of the boys are warm, sweet, tender, happy memories. Contrast those to what was shown in the hospital as the brothers barely looked at each other, were on opposite sides of the room at times, had Dean walking away in his helplessness and anger and Sam sitting down in his agony and hallucinations. Sera can say that the brothers are ‘tighter, stronger, more in step than they have been in a long time’ until the cows come home; it does not translate to what is shown on screen.
Supernatural (Sera) killed off Bobby Singer. Why? Because she can. Because she thinks it’s great drama. Because the Winchesters are up against the worst possible evil there is. Sorry, Sera, it’s one death too far. The brothers are now alone in the world just like in Season 1 but this time there is no hunt for Bobby like there was for John; because Bobby is dead. There’s no purpose, kill the thing that killed mom, because the Leviathans can’t be killed (and frankly the Leviathans can’t kill Sam and Dean either or they would have done so already, so they aren’t even that scary). I’d stay with the show even with the silly Leviathan story, but you killed Bobby simply because you could.
Sorry, Sera, it’s one death too far.
I couldn’t agree more. Great review.I can’t see the purpose in having Bobby gone, either. He was a great mirror of reality and a grounding influence on Sam and Dean. I didn’t want to believe they’d kill him, but looking back on all the clues, I think they have (or SHE has).
Bobby got his one-on-one moment with each “son” in the van. Whether we like the way it was written or not. I have conflicting views on that, but he got his moments. Then he told Dick he was old and near his end and why not just kill him. Then we have a few father-son moments with Bobby and the boys and him actually referring to them as “his boys”. Then we had the final memory the reaper allowed and Bobby’s final word- “idjits”. I think it’s pretty clear they wrapped him up with a pretty ribbon and are sending him off. I sooo wish it weren’t so.
I agree it would be more meaningful to have the guys together in this as opposed to being on opposite sides of the room, but here I think is the set-up for each self-destructing. Perhaps they’ll realize they have a choice to support eachother and not implode with Dean’s anger and Sam’s sadness and hallucinations,. I believe that is what the writers are setting up. Otherwise, why the brimming over anger we saw from Dean, and the continued references to the “Denver Scramble” of Sam’s mind?
Personally, I think the brothers could have been “tighter, stronger, and more instep” with Bobby as a catalyst for that change. He had been shown to be insightful with them from time to time. Sera threw out a big opportunity here. She chose to kill another beloved character instead of working out the path that Bobby could have taken to facilitate the boys working out their issues. And, sadly, I believe you are right; she chose to kill him because she could.
I can only hope that now they steer the ship toward some meaningful, and possibly emotional, healing and stability for these two. I would have loved to see Bobby be a part of that. Jim would have delivered beautifully, as he did in this last ep and always has. I am saddened to see him leave.
Oh yes, I know it’s cheating, but I think from Jim’s social media that he is at home and that J2 are in Vancouver, as they put out the “pantsless” “please vote” video! So apparently, they are there filming and Jim isn’t.
As much as I don’t want to I haveto agree that Bobby is dead. Similar to ‘fanoftheboyz’, I think Jim’s Twitter posts are very revealing, especially when he said that this is the first full episode his daughter has watched. It would make sense that he let her watch his last episode. If true, I think it is a mistake. He has become as much a part of the show as Sam and Dean. I will miss him and his interactions with them.
Great review!! Yes, I survived Castiel’s death because the angelic storyline became boring and it was high time to end it.
But Bobby? He was the only one solid point in the show.
Because Sera can…
I have faith he isn’t a goner yet, elle2. I appreciate where you are coming from though, as always you articulate very well in your review. I hope the show keeps him alive. I could only see it fitting to truly end a character as beloved and special as Bobby if we were approaching the final episode of the series. I don’t think this is the end though.
Sorry Elle, but I strongly feel that until we know Bobby’s fate – and at the moment we don’t – you should not be criticising sera for killing him ‘just because she can’. I’m not denying that there have been needless character deaths in the past; Rufus definitely, Balthazar, maybe Gabriel. But others that really meant something like Ellen and Jo, John.
If Bobby IS dead then I’ll be torn over which list to put him on; needless or meaningful. It was a wonderful, moving and fitting send off. However I don’t want to lose him and I don’t think the boys should have to lose him. BUT we do not yet know what will happen to Bobby. Yes it looks grim, but if it was definite it wouldn’t have been a cliffhanger. So I find your preemptive criticism of Sera – whose writing here was IMO absolutely outstanding – pretty unfair.
On your comments about the bleakness, and the fact that the boys are a bit closed off from each other – I agree. But I think it is a believable aspect of where are and what they have been through. And actually I thought they did, quietly, support each other in the ep. Again, until we see how they deal with aftermath of losing Bobby (if they do) it is hard to judge.
I sense some bitterness infusing your review which I just don’t share. I am loving s7. For me it is the best the show has been since s5, and FAR more enjoyable than s4 which I found much bleaker than this season.
I totally agree with you,Geordiegirl1967. I’m loving S7 and think it’s great. I put it up there with S1 which is my favorite.
Elle2, I also feel that this review, while written well, is filled with bitterness which I don’t share. Characters and actors return all the time to Supernatural. As it was reported tonight, Misha Collins is returning for 3 episodes. That’s certainly great news. I don’t really care if he returns as Castiel or another character as I know that Misha is a great actor who can bring such life to any character that he plays.
Bearing that in mind, who’s to say that Bobby is dead! If he’s not physically alive to interact with the boys, this can still be accomplished through flashbacks, etc. (although I will be sad if he does die) So, he will never be truly gone, just like Ellen and Jo and other great characters that have appeared on Supernatural.
Plus Jim Beaver just tweeted this tonight:
Just because someone doesn’t like the idea of someone dying doesn’t mean someone DID. Settle down! 😉
So Keep the Faith!
I agree with you and Geordiegirl. We don’t really know yet if he is dead, and on SPN, the dead have a habit of coming back…hello Rufus! And although I like your reviews Elle2, I felt sadness while reading it. Sadness because I feel bad that such a fan of the show feels so let down. I am loving season 7 and I have great hope for the rest of it.
Characters and actors returns to SPN all the time is nowadays used as a crutch and excuse to placate the fans really. Just because characters can come back doesn’t make it okay to kill them off in the first place. It doesn’t change that it happens. And honestly, the whole Cas/Misha returning thing was something they needed to do after the crappy exit they gave him. But even a return isn’t permanent and it certainly doesn’t mean some epic storyline. The show nowadays is simply killing off characters because it can, just so Sam and Dean can be alone and have their story and that’s sad because I for one am really not interested in just seeing Sam and Dean running around, it’s those side characters whose interactions that brings something great to watch, and new layers for the boys. When you take all that away, the show is simply left with nothing and nowhere to go.
Sam and Dean may be the center of the story but why have their world be so claustrophobic? And even if characters come and go, all we ever gonna see are some token 5 min return like we saw with Ellen and Jo, it will never be some full return, and it’s not enough.
Spot on. Really. You summed everything up perfectly and explained exactly how we all feel about it. I do believe that they killed him because they could. Because it made drama. Im curious to see where the show will go. Theyve lost eveyrone. They boys are completely alone now and up against a pointless monster that cant be destroyed. I dont see any real point to this season in terms of overall storyline and Im worried that if it gets picked up for another, what will they do then? I dont want it to turn all X-Files on us.
Yeah!
I’m torn over the idea that Bobby is dead. After watching the short clips for the Jan. 6th episode they just don’t ring true for an episode that would follow such a profound death. The guys look okay and when Sam asks Dean “so, what’s the plan” Dean’s response is “not die.” That doesn’t seem like Dean is riding the razor’s edge after Bobby’s death. I fully agree this is “a death too far”. I’m tired of this step being used and irritated that it was Bobby.
Perhaps, if he isn’t killed off there is a possibilty that Jim isn’t in Vancouver filming right now because Bobby is in a coma or maybe a rehab facilty for brain injuries. Maybe, they aren’t going for the miracle fix or the death route. Imagine if the brain damage is such that he doesn’t remember the boys,”his boys” that could open up some growth for the boys, too. They still have the connection but Bobby’s doesn’t, but there is the hope it could be regained some day. Or, perhaps, they plan to make new ones with Bobby.
I just can’t wrap my mind around the fact they won’t be able to revive Bobby in the ER and get him to surgery. I don’t want a quick fix but I don’t want him dead either. Plus, based on the random clips shown for ep 11 — I can’t believe the episode looks so non-mourning, the guys look okay despite the fact Sam is getting munched by what appears to be a vamp chick and Dean looks like he’s gone back in time. It’s confusing. If Bobby is dead then the follow-up episode appears to be doing a disservice to his death and Sam and Dean’s grief process. Of course, sweeping under the rug does seem to be the way of SPN, as of late.
If Bobby is dead and Sera put out the kill order then I will be irritated, as there are plenty of other options rather than to dump yet another great loss in the boys lap, like another death. There are other fertile options out there. Hope springs eternal that Bobby is revived, but unless any major spoilers leak before Jan. 6th we’ll just have to wait.
I was so upset by Bobby’s death. I truly wish it had not happened. But in the world of storytelling that is magic that I should mourn so much over a fictional character..that I feel he is real. And sadly death is real. I will keep watching Supernatural while I care so much. The most important part of Supernatural is Sam and Dean’s story. Like Bobby I care about Sam and Dean. And care that they learn how to live their own lives side by side as two adults who love each other. The reason they cannot stay in the same room when they are both upset like they were in this episode is the overwhelming responsibility and co-dependence they both experience. Amazingly written. I work with trauma victims and people suffering grief and so many loving families are separated at such times. And Sam and Dean have had a lifetime of trauma. They each reflect trauma through different lenses too. Of which I am also so impressed with the writer’s work. 9not to mention the actor’s 😉 But it can be healed. So besides loving the telling of a supernatural story that is kick-ass and complex but not, and never, descending into the extraneous puzzles that x-files did sometimes (though I watched that till the end cause i needed to just know!) I watch because I care about Sam and Dean…and I also have an inkling that Bobby will not leave their lives.
I believe that Bobby is dead, but that he said no to the reaper in order to be able to “stick around” and help his boys. The numbers – they could indeed be coordinates, or they could be some kind of combination to a lock or a keypad type locked door – probably in Roman’s stronghold.
Regarding Sam’s hand rubbing in the hospital, he cold also have been rubbing it just hoping against hope that the whole scene was a hallucination. Both characters were spot on, in the writing and the acting.
Man, it’s going to be a long wait until January. Oh and Dean likes licorice and Sammy likes peanut butter and banana sandwiches? How did we know know this?!
I think saying Sam & Dean are only eye candy is being insulting to Jared & Jensen’s acting skills. I don’t think people watch the show just to see good looking guys kicking ass. Season one was about two brothers, and the show will always be about two brothers. Would I like to see all the characters that were killed off still on the show? You bet. But I will continue watching for the core of the story…the Winchesters. And check out the poll at Bubbytv, most people think that Bobby will live. Maybe that’ll cheer you up a little.
Anyway, I hope I wasn’t too harsh, not my intention.
I see that you are disappointed, Venus Doom, and I understand your reasons, but I’d like to offer this: I think this show has one major asset it has always had reason to be proud of: the fabulous acting.
Over the last years we’ve continuously witnessed Jensen and Jared grow in their craft, supported by other talented actors.
That they are handsome, yes, does not hurt, but pretty faces alone would not have brought the show to a seventh season. And even though some material in the scripts might not have been top-notch, Jensen and Jared (and others) have been able to deliver Emmy-worthy performances more than once.
And I’m very happy about that. Cheers, Jas
Sorry VD but my overwhelming response when I read your post was ‘Oh for goodness sake!!’
We know Cas is coming back, and we don’t know that Bobby is dead. Yet you want to grieve for them and are questionning the future of SPN? Why? Bobby is a supporting character (much as I love him) as was Cas. I think the show would be crazy to permanently kill Bobby, but we don’t know that they have. And I haven’t missed Cas at all. He was a good character who played an important role for 2 or 3 seasons, but the show worked fine before he came, and has worked fine since he left. While ever Sam and Dean are there SPN is there. It is their story.
I had issues with the first (soulless Sam) half of s6, but since LaV I have really enjoyed the show. S7 is, for me, as good as s3 and 5, better than s1 and s6, and FAR FAR better than s4 (which I hated). Only s2 comes higher up my league table.
Sorry you are disenchanted, but if it is because you think Bobby and Cas are dead I strongly suspect you have no reason to worry.
Geordiegirl1967, my overwhelming response when I read your post was that you’ve just epitomised why it’s become so damn difficult for those who have reservations or worries about a particular storyline to post their opinions.
And I’m sorry but while you may not agree with what Venus Doom has to say, that doesn’t give you the right to condemn it. Venus Doom believes that Bobby is dead. She’s not the only one. She should be entitled to mourn and react to that in whichever way she wants. You might not believe Bobby is dead. Others do. You didn’t miss Castiel when he was gone. Others did. You are very happy with this season; others aren’t. It’s just a pity that those who have these worries and concerns cannot express them without the verbal equivalent of an eye-roll.
[quote]Geordiegirl1967, my overwhelming response when I read your post was that you’ve just epitomised why it’s become so damn difficult for those who have reservations or worries about a particular storyline to post their opinions.
And I’m sorry but while you may not agree with what Venus Doom has to say, that doesn’t give you the right to condemn it. Venus Doom believes that Bobby is dead. She’s not the only one. She should be entitled to mourn and react to that in whichever way she wants. You might not believe Bobby is dead. Others do. You didn’t miss Castiel when he was gone. Others did. You are very happy with this season; others aren’t. It’s just a pity that those who have these worries and concerns cannot express them without the verbal equivalent of an eye-roll.[/quote]
People are entitled to their opinions, and my views on Cas, s7 etc are just that – my opinions. I don’t presume to insist everyone shares them. My ‘eyeroll’ was simply about VDs statement that said basically ‘now that Bobby and Cas are dead there is no future for SPN’. My point was – and this is a FACT not an opinion – we don’t know yet what has happened to Bobby or Cas. That isn’t me suffering from wishful thinking. If Bobby is definitely dead as a doornail, never coming back, totally gone then what exactly was the cliffhanger? What is it that we are supposed to spend Xmas wondering about? I’m not saying Bobby isn’t dead. I’m saying we don’t know. Ditto with Cas. Someone could just as easily have said after Unforgiven ‘now that Sam has lost his mind and permanently gone insane because his wall has broken I am never watching the show again’, or after AHBL1 ‘they have killed Sam. That is it I am done’ or after Caged Heat ‘I am so p***d off they have killed Crowley. He was a great character’. This is SPN. Nothing is final. We have seen people properly (ie not just in flashbacks or AUs) return from; being dead for 30+ years (Samuel), Hell (Sam and Dean), a severed spinal chord and 24 hours or more dead as a dodo (Sam), being eaten by ghouls (Adam), being paralysed (Bobby), having a broken neck (Bobby), being exploded (Cas) etc etc etc. So a bit of brain damage, a flatline on a heart monitor and an insistent Reaper are hardly definitive proof of the end on this show. So my eyeroll was not because I think VD should agree with me on Cas or s6 or whatever. If was because they were reacting to something we do not know has happened. If it is as they fear, and Cas and Bobby are both dead, never to return – then by all means have this reaction then, and stop watching. But for now WE DON”T KNOW. So that was my point to VD, which I think was clear when I said “Sorry you are disenchanted, but if it is because you think Bobby and Cas are dead I strongly suspect you have no reason to worry”
But we are not robots Geordiegirl1967, we are people. We have fears, and emotions. We worry and we ponder. No, it is not a fact that Bobby is dead. It is not a fact that the Castiel we knew is dead but it is a possibility, a very strong possibility. And like you said, if we knew he was dead there’d be no point speculating. However, if we knew he was [i]alive[/i] then equally there would be no point speculating, and that wouldn’t be a cliffhanger either. Wouldn’t it be a very boring Christmas if it was a case of ‘Oh look, Bobby is not dead yet. Let’s not worry or talk about it until we know for certain what is happening.’
And taking that ethos into account, would the same criteria not also apply in relation to Sam and Dean. Sam is in a very precarious position. He’s in hell in his head and now with Bobby’s possible demise, his reality is also hell. His mind is on the verge of going but it hasn’t gone yet so what’s the point in worrying about it?
Or Dean? Having lost Castiel, Ben and Lisa and now maybe Bobby, Dean is on a tightrope of emotions, possibly on the verge of snapping and doing something crazy like strapping his brother into the car and driving off a cliff or making a deal or losing a part of himself in his quest for revenge but shur, he hasn’t done it [i]yet[/i], so there’s no point worrying about it. Good God, if we only talked about fact on these sites, they’d have to shut down the internet!
[quote]So that was my point to VD, which I think was clear when I said “Sorry you are disenchanted, but if it is because you think Bobby and Cas are dead I strongly suspect you have no reason to worry”[/quote]
With all due respect, but when the [i]writers[/i] of the show come out and say there is no reason to worry, then I won’t worry. (Oh God, you’re not a writer on the show, are you??)
And Geordiegirl1967, I’m not saying we should all agree with each other’s opinions (I don’t think anyone would want the world to be that dull), just that it’d be nice if differing opinions could be treated with the same courtesy and respect as we would wish our own to be treated.
There have been such a plethera of posts (in response to this episode and through out season seven) containing ‘reservations and worries’ about virtually ALL storylines that I can’t imagine it being very difficult at all for people who feel that way to post them.
I didn’t read Geordiegirl’s post as ‘condemning’ Venus Doom’s opinion. Disagreeing with it, yes. Supporting her reasons for disagreeing with it, also yes.
And I don’t know, but to me, the verbal equivalent of an eyeroll, as you called it, is pretty tame compared to the bitterness and vitriol with which some of those ‘worries and concerns’ are being expressed throught fandom.
If people do find it difficult to express their ‘worries and reservations’ I would have to say, it is no less difficult for those who have a positive view of the show to post their joys and delights for fear of being shouted down.
Alice does a great job keeping this site civil and these days, my god it can’t be easy. I don’t see that any lines were crossed here, but its not my job to moderate.
I feel that this is one of those fansites where opinions are not shouted down. Debated, yes. Not agreed with, often. Shouted down, no. I don’t know what it is like throughout the rest of fandom because I made a conscious decision to not venture outside here again.
Yes, there is bitterness and vitriol expressed but from what I can see, this is expressed in relation to news, reveals etc. That is to be expected. This is an impassioned fandom and with so many things going on, not everyone will react to news the same way. However, I’ve seen little to no vitriol being posted in relation to a posters opinion (though perhaps I’m not looking in the right place) on this site.
It’s probable that I am overly sensitive to comments like this but I know how I would feel if someone replied to a comment of mine with an ‘Oh, for goodness sake’, a remark that I would interpret as being dismissive of what I posted. This was most probably not your (Geordiegirl1967s) intent but that is how I interpreted it. And to be honest, I’d rather someone gave me one hundred reasons as to why they think I’m wrong than someone being dismissive of my opinion. (Nine times out of ten my opinion might not be worth reading, but I still wouldn’t like to hear that).
That being said, Geordiegirl1967 (and Mel), if you feel aggrieved or took offense at what I posted, apologies. Your positive attitude is certainly an admirable one and one that will hopefully carry the fearful among us through the harrowing wait on Bobby’s life or death situation. I do wish I had your faith, to be honest.
I appreciate that on SPN no-one truly dies but unfortunately, for every Sam, Dean and Castiel there is a John, Jessica, Ellen, Jo and Rufus, all characters who stayed dead when they died (except in dreams, hallucinations, alternate realities, or as spirits and I’m not counting that as ‘alive’).
Apart from the obvious bullet in the brain, plans to debride said brain, reaper on his shoulder and flatlining, I think that Bobby is at another serious disadvantage in that he is painfully human. There’s no angel or vessel get out of death free card for him. He is pure flesh and bone and is, as such, hugely vulnerable, hugely breakable, and unfortunately hugely killable. (Actually, I wonder what would happen to Sam and Dean is they died now.) Castiel is AWOL at present so that healing route is temporarily closed off. Crowley [i]could[/i] be called in but his favour’s always come with a high price, and as these deals have cost the brothers so much in the past, I would be hoping they don’t go down that route.
One other reason I am concerned about Bobby’s welfare is in relation to what physical state he would be in if he were to live. To expect him to be the 100% Bobby he was before he was shot I would find unrealistic (cos, y’know bullet in the brain and all that). I don’t think Bobby would want to put the boys in a situation where, if he was in a coma etc, they would not leave his side (and he knows they would not leave his side). To have the Winchesters stay by his bedside while the Leviathans wreaked havoc would be something I cannot see Bobby tolerating. He might not be a Winchester but that does not mean he is not as self-sacrificial as they are.
If the worst came to the worst and Bobby’s body dies but his spirit chooses to remain then there is a huge possibility that in time to come, Sam and Dean would have no option but to kill Bobby and Bobby knows what it’s like to kill someone you love, he’s done it twice. I could not, in a million years, see him wanting to inflict that kind of pain on the boys. He cares about them too much for that. So, I guess a question that needs to be considered is, are Bobby’s reasons for staying as weighty as his reasons for going?
Who know though, maybe Dr. Sexy might make an appearance and do some surgery with pliers and some dental floss and Bobby could be back on his feet by the weekend?
Anyway, Geordiegirl1967, I have deviated ever so slightly in the reason for my post, which was to apologise if I caused you offense. My sensitivity at that comment is my issue and not yours. Please keep flying the flag of hope high!
Thanks so much Mel..for all you have said. I am one of those folks who have found so much joy in the show and have sometimes been made to feel I was irrelevant. I am so glad to hear where others are and am so happy to read how much everyone cares, but I have hope that the caring does come out of loving this wonderful show. And yes…thank you to Alice for giving space to express my joy and hear from others.
Thanks for the support Mel and Joanne. It sometimes feels like it is harder to be a fan of SPN here and on other SPN sites than it is to be a harsh critic of it.
Tim – I took no offence at what you said, but I strongly feel that I didn’t cross any lines here. I stand by my ‘eye roll’ for EXACTLY the reason you yourself so eloquently expressed
[quote]No, it is not a fact that Bobby is dead. It is not a fact that the Castiel we knew is dead[/quote]
My impatience with VD was because he/she appeared to be saying that Bobby and Cas certainly are dead so they are going to stop watching (I’m paraphrasing). My response wasn’t to say ‘oh no he is not’, it was to say – as you have also done – that we DON’T KNOW so it is too soon to give up on the show for that reason.
I admit that I do get impatient with the constant moaning, nitpicking, negativity and impossible standards of some posters. I feel that all those who spend so much energy whinging will miss SPN when it is gone and maybe will look back and wish they had appreciated it more when it was here. However it is never my intention to insult anyone or be offensive, and I don’t think I was here.
As there are episodes in season 7 I do not like, I am possibly one of those ‘negative’, ‘moaning’, ‘nitpicking’ posters to which you refer.
Now, while I obviously have no say in which way you [i]choose[/i] to interpret my posts or any other post on here, I would appreciate it if you didn’t refer to my opinions, no matter how much you might disagree with them, as just ‘whinging’. I don’t feel I deserve it. Actually, I don’t feel [i]anyone’s[/i] opinion deserves to be referred to in such a way.
Thanks.
If we follow spoilers, and I’m not sure we’re suppose to be discussing spoilers here, then we know Misha is coming back, but we have no idea whether he’ll come back just to be killed off, or how much this character will resemble the old Cas. As for Bobby, he’s flatlining, his brain has been dying, and all of the memories that make Bobby Bobby are gone, so short of some supernatural intervention, I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he’s dead.
[quote]If we follow spoilers, and I’m not sure we’re suppose to be discussing spoilers here, then we know Misha is coming back[/quote]
I asked someone in another forum who had titled a thread ‘Cas is coming back’ to rename it as it was spoilery, and was shouted down because ‘everyone knows’. Didn’t bother me. I am the worst spoiler-seeker ever, but I thought others might mind. Since then I have realised that it is everywhere and no-one is bothering treating it as a spoiler.
[quote]As for Bobby, he’s flatlining, his brain has been dying, and all of the memories that make Bobby Bobby are gone, so short of some supernatural intervention, I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he’s dead.[/quote]
If this was Gossip Girl I’d agree, but this is Supernatural, so a supernatural intervention would hardly be a shocker. In fact it is actually more likely than not. As I said above the show has a track record here. A severed spinal chord and being dead for over 24 hours, as Sam was in AHBL, would be considered by most to be pretty much doornail-dead, yet here he is. Ditto Samuel (dead for 30 years), Bobby, Dean, Adam, and others who were all resurrected from the dead by supernatural intervention.
So I stand by my view that WE DON’T KNOW about Bobby. In the real world, or if this was ER, then yes he is a goner. But it ain’t.
Disagree. The show went through a period with the angels when everyone important to the apocalypse storyline were being brought back by the angels, but for the most part side characters have stayed dead. If Bobby was critcal to fighting the Leviathan, and if there wasn’t so much build up to this – including two Bobby heavy episodes in a row before the winter break – then I might agree. Anyway, you say we don’t know if he’s dead. I say we kind of do. The rest is just denial.
With that said, futher down the road with a different storyline, he could be brought back, but for now he’s dead. No one know what future storylines will bring, but that doesn’t mean the OP can’t react to the current storyline.
[quote]Disagree. The show went through a period with the angels when everyone important to the apocalypse storyline were being brought back by the angels, but for the most part side characters have stayed dead. [/quote]
You mean like Sam stayed dead in AHBL? or Dean stayed dead in Lucifer Rising? or Bobby stayed paralsyed? Or Samuel stayed dead? or Sam’s soul wasn’t rescued despite that being supposedly impossible – essentially bringing the real Sam back to life? Of these, only Dean was brought back by angels. The rest were brought back by other means; crossroads deals, Crowley, or Death.
[quote]Anyway, you say we don’t know if he’s dead. I say we kind of do. The rest is just denial.
With that said, futher down the road with a different storyline, he could be brought back, but for now he’s dead. No one know what future storylines will bring, but that doesn’t mean the OP can’t react to the current storyline.[/quote]
Sorry, but we don’t know that Bobby is dead. We just don’t. This isn’t denial, it is a recognition of where the ep ended, and the way this show does things. I’m not saying he isn’t dead for now. I am saying that a) we don’t know that. If we do then I am curious what you think the cliff hanger ending of DD was. And b) even if he is, he can be brought back either straight away or at any point in the future. Nothing needs to permanent on this show, and as the examples I gave above demonstrate, lots of things that seemed permanent turned out not so much.
It’s your opinion that it’s unclear whether Bobby died. It’s my opinion that the show was pretty clear on that point. The cliffhanger now is whether he’ll go with the reaper or stick around as a spirit, and how Sam and Dean will react.
Last year’s mid-season finale wasn’t much of a cliffhanger either in that most people didn’t think Sam was really going to be a vegetable for the second half. They were just anxious to see the reunion and what Sam would be like when he woke up.
“WE DON’T KNOW about Bobby”
True dat. Hence the cliffhanger. 😉
I honestly do not know which way show is going to go with this.
On the one hand, Sera said the boys’ supports would be stripped away making them rely on each other. Bobby is a mighty big support. And maybe its true – they won’t get back to their strength (which is each other)unless there is no one else to depend on. So Bobby says ‘yes’ to the Reaper, walks into the light and leaves the devastated Winchesters behind to put themselves back together. I can see that happening.
On the other hand, at this point, with the set up for Dean’s depressed and suicidal mental state and Sam’s fragile psyche can the boys really withstand the loss of Bobby? Does the show truly intend to put them through it? Or is it really vicarious torture of the Winchesters and us, to be put right by some sort of a supernatural save – perhaps Death or Crowley or even God (doubt it) intervenes. I can see Crowley doing it – he needs the Winchesters to win against the Leviathans – and he could figure their chances are better with Bobby than without him (or he could still be PO’d about the whole soul thing and say “Sod ‘im!”)
I can see that happening – taking us to the brink like they have and then pulling us back – Show is populated by just that sort of magnificant bastards.
I just don’t know.
Or Show could do something else entirely that is somewhere in between. I think the intent is clearly to pull the support of Bobby away from Sam & Dean, but whether its permanent or temporary I just don’t know.
Seven years into the show and I can’t predict what they’ll do. Magnificient. Bastards.