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Sammy’s going darkside, Sammy’s going darkside…

No, you didn’t see it?  Oh, there are clues. If you squint.  Remember all the way back in “Supernatural” season three when Sam was frantic over saving Dean and ultimately couldn’t?  Remember four months later in season four, after drowning his sorrows in booze for a chunk of the summer, he’s teamed up with Ruby and channelling his inner darkside for some demon smoking mojo?  Remember how Dean at this time, at the end of season three anyway, accepted his fate? 

Welcome “Supernatural” Season Ten:  The Redux. 

The similarities are noticeable.  Okay, there is one HUGE difference.  Seasons three and four were exciting, well plotted, gave us lots of little tasty nuggets along the way to feast on, satisfying our appetites for most of the season.  The MOTW adventures moved at a brisk pace all while shockingly tying into the season arc.  “The Things They Carried” was well plotted, brought back the old school horror that this show used to have, but honestly, it could have played out in about 15 minutes.  I spent a lot of my hour, as I have most of the last two seasons, on my laptop reading emails, checking twitter for comments, and what do you know, I didn’t miss a beat.  Gee, I miss those days of the totally engrossing hour.   


At least this episode had a few scenes that had me holding my breath.  I’m not sure why it worked, but Dean electrocuting Cole was pretty damned intense.  Overall, I really like Cole.  It was a bit contrived that the MOTW just happened to be Cole’s best friend, but I did like the military link.  It made sense why Cole would be involved.  Obviously he’s still trying to get a handle on this whole supernatural/monsters are real thing, but I still wish to see him be a hunter.   Soldiers make the perfect hunters, and anyone who can keep begging for an electrocution like that has the badass criteria that’s so required in the job description.  Then again I don’t want to see Cole hunt either, because that means his wife and kid would have to die.  

I liked the mystery in this one too.  The Khan Worm on steroids!  It’s evolved!  Sometimes you just have to figure out how to kill the monster despite not knowing what you’re up against.  I love that the electrocution didn’t work and Dean and Cole were able to work on a solution together.  Dean and Cole together make a damn good team.  I’m very pleased the experience brought closure to Cole over Dean killing his dad.   He finally accepted that it probably wasn’t his dadan thank goodness that’s over.   So, this goes two ways for Cole.  He lives with this acceptance and moves on, or his family skewers in a demon fueled fire and he has a new occupation.  

Dean is clearly in “I want to work” mode, no doubt reeling from his recent ordeal with Cain.  Sure, we didn’t see the ramifications much.  There was hope that he’d be edgy, uptight, experiencing some very bad signs that he’s done something awful, or anything that would push his arc further.  Unfortunately, we’ve got a complacent Dean who’s decided to give up and in Castiel’s words, “wait for the inevitable blast wave.”  That seems to be a favorite fallback for these writers for both Sam and Dean in a hopeless situation.  I don’t know why some of his worry couldn’t have come out during his experience with Cole.  That seems like it would have been the best time. 

Yes, there were the parallels between Cole fighting his monster within and Dean fighting his.  Luckily it wasn’t too heavy handed, but it got there at times.  They both are tough, and Cole’s triumph seems to give hope that Dean will come out on top of his own monster within struggle.  But how about this, Cole and Kit’s friendship, aka the parallel to Sam and Dean’s relationship,  suffered a big blow when Sam had to kill Kit.  So if Dean comes out on top, does this mean Sam doesn’t?  Or does that mean Sam is going to be the one to kill Dean?  Which outcome do you think was the foreshadowing?  Perhaps both?  You see, I’m thinking they’re setting up Sam for a fall, not Dean.  

I know, I did kind of leave you all hanging earlier in the review in regards to Sam.  So what clues are out there?  There’s the obvious one, he’s clearly not giving up the hunt for a solution to the Mark of Cain.  Seriously though, Sam’s idea of digging into the Mark of Cain is still relegated to online searches?  Even I’ve exhausted searches for complex subjects on Google in one afternoon.  If the MOL doesn’t have it, or online, why isn’t he in some dank archive, or better yet the old hidden library at the Campbell family compound, spending sleepless nights poring over information?  Online is just a fudging waste of time and he knows it.  I think Sammy is desperate.  

It’s the little things though and as usual with Sam you have to watch closely since he internalizes everything.  The frustration at the beginning when he was given 10 minutes to get ready to go on the road with Dean when he was clearly in the middle of “secret” research.  The abandoned search on his phone in the car and the bitter silence as Dean gave him the “don’t bother the ugly end is inevitable” speech.  We know that silence is Sam speak for, ‘I’M NOT LISTENING, LA, LA, LA, LA…”  but the frustration and despair on his face told the inner story.  He’s angry and frantic and barely holding it together.  The end is the most obvious though.  Not being able to save Kit, that ate away on his already raw mentality of not being able to save Dean.  He fears something horrible is going to happen to his brother.  There have been lots of situations where Sam hasn’t been able to save someone, but this one hit him hard.  Something ain’t right with the boy.

Then there’s the history of the entire show.  This episode reminded me a lot of season three’s “Bedtime Stories.”  Sam was pretty unhinged in that one, the frustration of being unable to save Dean eating away at him.  While Dean casually hinted to Sam that he let him go, Sam bitterly replied, “Is that what you want me to do Dean?  Just let you go?”  He wasn’t going to do that then, and he isn’t going to do that now.   The only thing missing here was Sam didn’t go and kill a crossroads demon at the end out of frustration.  Given the very drawn out plot lines this season, we’ll likely see something like that around episode 21 and 22.  Next season (I jest!  Or do I?).

Need more evidence?  Look at your present day writing team.  They’ll all about the shoutouts and parallels to seasons prior.  After all, it’s clever, right?  Ooh, ooh, let’s do what season three Sam was supposed to do, but wasn’t able to because of the writer’s strike.  Except, we’ll drag this out over two 23 episode seasons because we are out of material!  People won’t see it coming!  Actually, as weak as the plotting and lack clues are, especially the growing number of filler episodes we’ve been getting, we probably won’t. 

s10e15 60

As far as Dean is concerned, Sam will never stop.  He will always fight, always find a way to save his brother or die trying.  He will do this at great sacrifice to his well being.  Dean is the same way with Sam.  The more desperate he gets, the more dangerous things he will do.  We got that message in episode 1 of this season!  We’ve been speculating on the Discussion Page that perhaps Sam will turn to dark magic.  Whatever he does, it’ll be stupid, reckless, very risky and dammit, I hope awesome.  Please TPTB, make it awesome.  Throw this longtime but incredibly bored fan a bone.  

The Red Headed Monster

There’s been a lot of talk of “Supernatural” catering more to the younger viewers now but most of the youngsters I know (I am the mother of two teenagers) have very short attention spans.  How is this agonizingly slow pace keeping them interested?  How are character based stories winning them over?  I swear they’re fast forwarding through most of it and sharing squee on Twitter because it’s more fun.   Please honestly, anyone under 17 please give me the finer details of what you saw in this episode other than “Sam and Dean killed a monster and Cole was there cause he’s cool.”  I’m a very focused adult and that’s all I can say about it.  

Filler episodes have become more of the norm over recent seasons and it’s just hard to get excited about a filler episode.  It takes away the idea of “appointment television.”  Last night’s series low ratings seemed to indicate that, although in fairness “Supernatural went against a massive, hot monster in “Empire.”  Heck, if I was caught up with that show, I would have watched it live too.  

Remember back season four?  It was a brilliant and slow build up to the ultimate revelation that Sam’s powers were pushing him into some very dangerous territory.  The clues were all there, fed to us in one very enticing trail of breadcrumbs (hmm, breadcrumbs…).  In season ten, watch Sam crinkle his lips and forehead!  Watch him silently do nothing while Dean lectures him!  That’s going to push him over the edge and he’ll do  something awful to save Dean!  As for Dean, we’ll watch him go darkside and there’s nothing we can do to stop it.  I get that it’s hard to be original anymore considering the extraordinary amount of ground the series has already covered, but it can be done.   

All of S10 has had the right idea on paper.  Dean is in peril (since the demon thing didn’t work out) and Sam grows frantic trying to save him.  But the execution and engagement factor has just been horrible.  There’s no meat in these MOTW plots or season long story arcs, save for the previous “The Executioner’s Song” and this episode failed to capitalize on the momentum from that.  We certainly aren’t getting enticing nuances that something is up and building toward a mind blowing finish.  If anything big happens to either Sam or Dean at this point, episode 16 and counting, it’s going to come across as random.  I have a feeling they’re going to pull a “surprise” on us in one episode and then tell us that was the clever plan all along.  It’ll be Carver’s episode too, because the weight of pulling everything together always seems to fall on him.  

I keep going back and forth on the grade for this one, but since I like Cole and I’m feeling charitable, I give “The Things They Carried” a B-.  That could easily be a C+ tomorrow or next week, but I’ll stick with the slightly higher grade for now.  Next episode, more filler.  Next week, I decide it might be time to catch up on “Empire”.  It may not be sci-fi, but it’s showing everyone what appointment television is all about.  


Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-19 23:25
Alice, I agree with your point about teenage viewers. My 16 year old daughter was the one who got me started on SPN, a year and a half ago. It was her favorite show and she was totally obsessed with it, reading about it online and wishing desperately that she could go to a Con. Well, the 2nd half of Season 9 followed by this season have put a big dent in her feelings for the show. She hated how the boys were at odds for the whole second half of last year, and she finds this year to be mostly unexciting, if not downright boring. She's hanging in there but it's no longer her favorite show. It has dropped a number of spots in her rankings. She still loves the Js and Misha, but she's not feeling the love for SPN that she used to.
# st50 2015-03-20 15:27
My daughters also got me started watching - several years ago. Neither of them has watched the last several seasons. i'm the one who can't seem to let go. Whatever they're trying, it is not working for the younger viewers, imho.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 15:37
Did they stop watching because they got busy with other things or did they not like the show anymore? What was the last season they watched? And I can't let go either, not sure why.
# st50 2015-03-20 15:43
They didn't like it any more. (Believe me, if they enjoy a show, they find ways to fit it into their schedules)
They both watched through season 6, and a few episodes of season 7, but they really weren't enjoying it. Once I told them about 8.01, they never looked in again. (Which probably means they're both a whole lot smarter than I am)
# LACYSOS 2015-03-20 00:42
Dear Alice, I sincerely hope you're right. Last night's episode was not bad but yeah. it could have been told in 15 minutes. I'm having the same problem with the MOC. I watched the first hour of Empire and then switched to Supernatural for the sake of ratings (recorded both). SPN writers could learn something from Empire. They have a large cast and every character has an interesting storyline. They weave those storylines, twists & turns, so brilliantly, seamlessly, while SPN continues to fumble around with the MOC SL since 9x11. I already gave up on Sam ever doing anything even remotely exciting or interesting. So yeah, I hope you're right.
I do believe if they're setting someone up for a fall it will be Sam, for sure.
# Ginger 2015-03-20 01:17
Oh, Alice, I feel your pain.

I laughed at your Internet research remarks. While I was watching the episode, I wondered if the Winchesters ever heard of the Vatican and, since Fan Favorite Charlie is in Italy, maybe she could bebop over there and learn something useful.

I liked the episode as a standard stand-alone MotW episode, because Klein remembered this was a horror show and she wrote a genre episode. It was also very much another episode about a support character. Dean was nothing more than a facilitator to Cole coming to accept that his father was a monster and that's why Dean killed him. Dean just did his job. Sam was sympathetic and empathic with Rick's wife, but he wasn't a smart hunter. He learned Dean might die; that he might lose Dean, but Dean can't die, so either Sam will save Dean or Dean will save himself.

I won't even rate the episodes anymore. The show is no longer worth the bother.
# nicknicknicknick 2015-03-20 03:47
I sometimes wonder if it's worth coming here to read and comment on reviews anymore because even the positive ones are so laden with snark that it's depressing. Yes, the show has lost its luster. Yes, it's no longer as captivating as it once was. No, it probably won't get better, not after a decade, and probably not with Carver still at the helm. But how does continually bringing this up in reviews, and then comparing the show to fresh, younger, hipper, first-year programs, help? The other thing is, is there ANY way for these reviews to reach the eyes and ears of the writers/produce rs? Is it ethical to tweet/FB them direct to say "here's what we think, check this article out"? When people bring these issues up in conventions, they get shut down... so what are the options? If there aren't any, if there's little to no way to present fan views directly to TPTB, then isn't it just an exercise in negativity... or at least, futility?

Yes, I acknowledge that these forums are a good way to vent, but... I don't know, isn't it easier just to say "This is the way the show is now, I'm just going to enjoy it (or at least accept it) for what it is"? When I read comments by fans saying "I won't even rate the episodes anymore, the show is no longer worth the bother", then my response, sadly, is: "So don't bother." (Sorry, Ginger, just using this as an example, I'm NOT attacking you, I'm just pointing out that fan responses can serve as a trigger, just as I'm sure my response here will, in turn.) It makes me, the fervent viewer, casual reader and frequent site visitor, irritated, which is not the reaction I'd want from a 'fan site'.

I don't mean to be rude here, I truly don't; it's just that there's so much regurgitated disdain over aspects of the show that it makes it off-putting for those of us who still enjoy it and are entertained, and are less put off by the things that aren't working. I understand that this space is a safe space for those who are unhappy with the show, but it makes it an exhausting space for those who are still happy (or happy-ish).

That all said, I know how these sites work. Everyone is entitled to an opinion (so I hope I'm entitled to mine). Rather than expect the fans to change, I'll just stop coming here.... akin to how, rather than expecting the show to change, people could just move on from it, or accept it for the way it is.

Thank you, WFB, for the happier years.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 07:59
As an unhappy viewer, I've been wondering the same thing you brought up. What if there was a twitter campaign with the hashtag "give Sam a plot" or "move the story forward": is there a way that could reach TPTB? I don't have twitter so I don't know how it works exactly. The problem with any organized campaign like that is that, obviously, TPTB think they're doing a fine job. I assume they're not going home every night thinking "wow, this episode stinks." And any type of organized strategy might just get their backs up in a screw you sort of way. Furthermore, I don't know what percent of fans is unhappy. The fans who don't care for Sam are probably thrilled, and many fans might, like you, be willing to wait and hope for better things. So in the meantime I will stick it out, hope for better times ahead and continue to vent. One question I had after reading your comment- what have people brought up at Cons exactly, and who has shut them down? The Js?
# sylvia37 2015-03-20 08:04
I've wondered the same thing, but my worry is that it will get back to Jared and I would hate for him to feel burdened by it. He's doing his job to the best of his ability and he shouldn't have to worry about how we feel about the writing or how we perceive it. As much as I would like for some things to change, I would hate for Jared to think we don't like HIM or what he's doing.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 08:43
That is the one constant isn't it? Jared and Jensen and the hardwork they put in day in and day out, in spite of crappy, lazy, mediocre, fantastic, stellar writing - whatever it is they give it their all!

Funny thing is, for all our griping or praising or comments or rants - it's all pretty much a moot point now since they are pretty close to a wrap of this season. I'm frustrated with the fillers too. It seems like back in the days of yore that they actually tied in more to the mytharc or prevalent storyline at hand. They weren't just a showcase for a particlar writers fave character or stupid idea, they actually made sense and moved the storyline along. As far as losing ratings to Empire? It's their own damn fault. All it would've taken is a shirtless Dean in the cabin with a shirtless Cole as a bonus (and Hell Sam could've run in, tripped and his shirt could've then ripped off...) and Shirtless Dean would be the #1 trend... Idjits.
# eilf 2015-03-20 12:03
I remember at one con (I would think it was for Season 4 or 5) Jared was totally stoked to know what the fans thought of the previous episode (he was doing a breakfast panel with Misha for some reason) he REALLY wanted to talk about the plot and the big reveal, and how much drama was involved. And the audience were enthusiastic and shouted their approval.

And then someone asked a question and Jared was all ready to have a discussion ... and it was about pranks, or Jared's hair or what his favorite pokemon was or something similar. He was clearly disappointed but changed the subject with good grace. I have an idea that that particular breakfast panel ended up with him doing pushups or something.

Anyway after that they seemed to realise that the con audience don't really want to talk about the intricacies of the show. I am sure they (J2) would if they got the chance. Considering how much money people spend on the cons they should be entitled to ask about whatever interests them. In fairness it isn't entirely the best format to discuss the show. But apart from the audience booing shipping questions (which are not storyline related anyway since no ship is canon) and booing when a question is really rude and insulting (which they are occasionally) people don't get shut down really as far as I can see.
# E 2015-03-20 13:46
Hey eilf… It is my understanding that after the "PETA" incident that happened at at con years ago that all questions at cons are vetted. It often appears that maybe the fans aren't that interested in asking complex character or plot questions when I really think any questions that might be considered "controversial" are in fact squashed. I am not totally sure on this, but I think this is the case. IMO if fans had a completely free forum to ask whatever they wanted they would, probably to the point that there would be a brawl amongst the fans! Occasionally a controversial question will leak through, but we've seen the reaction to those by both con audiences and the J's alike, and those people are shut down pretty quickly. I remember at one con maybe 2 years ago a young woman tried to ask a question about Dean's sexual orientation and after a fairly negative look from Jensen and a lot of hissing and booing from the audience, Clif suddenly appeared and the girl and her question where gone. I didn't think her question was that big of a deal, but apparently what she asked was a "no, no" in today's con environment and they shut her down tout-suite.
# eilf 2015-03-20 14:35
I don't think they vet the questions all that much TBH - I know people who have been to the breakfast panel and I am pretty sure those questions aren't vetted. The girl who asked the (what appeared to everyone including Jensen to be) destiel question was actively looking for trouble since there had been a lot of annoyance over the ignoring of storyline in favor of shipping just prior to that - maybe an incident the previous day?
In the afternoon panel they might be vetted but I think the complex questions just get too complicated to ask. They know they aren't going to get an answer to any question that implies favoritism to one character over another, or being critical of the writers, so they don't bother asking. And the guys aren't going to give away spoilers. The last time there was a serious discussion of the brothers at a con was the middle of last season, Jensen answered it and he backed up the current party line about which brother has always been more there for his brother (still bitter about that). So I don't see that questions don't get through, I just don't always appreciate or agree with the answers.

I would love to see more actual depth to the panels and fewer musical interludes, but since I don't have the money to go to a con I can't really complain about what I get ;)
# E 2015-03-20 15:01
I guess I just find it highly improbable that absolutely NO ONE has asked about the lack of Sam story line… I mean it's going on to year three and he's basically had nothing of his own to do or say. I just don't think it's realistic to assume that no one would ask that question; I mean there have to be at least a FEW Sam fans at a con, I mean there are thousands of fans. If I ever went to a con I'd be asking that line of questions every chance I got to anyone who'd let me, unless of course the questions are vetted, which given the absolutely hell raising Jensen made after the PETA question, I would be surprised if they are not. I would be especially surprised to find that fans that get into the small meet and greats aren't completely prepped beforehand as to what they can and can't do and can and can't say.
# cheryl42 2015-03-20 15:10
Didn't someone ask Carver a while back when he was giving interviews about Sam's story or lack of? I thought I remember he gave kind of a snippy reply and said his story was coming. That seemed like months ago. If Sam is going to go down a dark road at some point he better get going. I do know they intend on extending the MOC story into next season. So maybe the cliffhanger will be whatever it is that Sam does and next season will be the consequences. Maybe?
# percysowner 2015-03-20 15:23
Sam is probably going to down a road so dark that we, the audience, will be unable to see it. Instead we will see Crowley and Rowena and Cas and Claire (or Hannah or random other angel or something). Sam will come back from his dark road and no one will notice he had left. They will scold him for not bringing Dean pie.
# E 2015-03-20 15:37
Ugh… well, I guess I'd better just give up on anything for Sam. Carver clearly doesn't like his character and has no interest in him and neither do the writers. I simply isn't going to change. Dean is the only brother who matters. The shippers are happy because Sam is a non-entity making it easier for them to indulge in their fantasy and the Sam haters are ecstatic because its all Dean all the time even when his story is going absolutely no where.
# st50 2015-03-20 15:21
I would be especially surprised to find that fans that get into the small meet and greats aren't completely prepped beforehand as to what they can and can't do and can and can't say.
They are not "prepped", E. And while I have never asked a question at the panels, I haven't seen any "vetting" going on, either. In fact, at one recent con, there was a question asked of Colin Ford that left the entire audience speechless.

If there was a way to do it privately, I'd have more to say on the issue.
# E 2015-03-20 15:45
So I take it that you've been to a meet and great. I am sure that was great fun. I do find it strange that there are no ground rules at all, especially in a charged atmosphere like that, but if you say so, I believe you. So, where are all the decent questions I wonder? Why hasn't anyone questions the lack of canon, or the lack of story for Sam or the far that the DD story was seriously shortchanged and is currently going absolutely nowhere? Why aren't the questions being discussed here asked there?

I will probably never get to a con. It's not that I can't get to one physically, the Jersey Con is very close to where I live (although I'd have to take mass transit which is a monumental PITA!) and I could probably get a general ticket for one day and afford at least that much. But I'm not a con type…. I don't have that much interest in the crowds (funny, cause I live in NYC! I avoid Times Square like its crawling with plague) or the mayhem or hysteria. It's just not my scene. I watch the con videos and I love them, but don't have much interest in the live event.
# st50 2015-03-20 15:56
Crowds aren't for me, either - nor for my Con friends, honestly, but we enjoy the weekend. The cons are actually a lot of fun - because the panelists make it fun.
Ground rules (as I recall) for the meet N greets are basically be polite, don't hog their time, stay in your seat... that kind of thing. The atmosphere there is NOT charged at all. They feel warm and friendly.
I will say that I have heard these issues raised and questions asked in one meet and greet (not by me or my friends) - respectfully, of course. But more than that, I can't say.

During the panels, there are simply HUGE lines of people to ask questions (I've seen the lines extend the full length of the auditorium and curve around the back- on both sides). Very few people actually get to ask anything of the Js - and the people who get up seem to be more focussed on having the boys attention on them for as long as they can manage, rather than having any actual discussions about the show. I've heard a few interesting questions, but not many, it's true.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 15:47
I guess I'm feeling very nosy because I REALLY want to know what you're referring to. What could they have asked Colin that was so outrageous? Please maybe just a little tiny hint:)
# st50 2015-03-20 16:02

FYI, In the first few seconds of the video, Colin was talking about Jared.
# E 2015-03-20 16:07
Geez…. how rude. No wonder Jared feels insecure about Sam so much of the time. And to spread her hate around a con and to dump it all over Colin Ford? Maybe the questions SHOULD be vetted if some fans can't exercise more self control than that.
# percysowner 2015-03-20 16:05
Already coverd
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 16:24
Thank you both for posting that but I'm kind of sorry I watched it because it pissed me off. I find it extremely ironic that the questioner referred to Sam as bitchy- talk about the pot calling the kettle black. And the way she prefaced her question by trumpeting her status as a Dean fan as though she's defending Dean's honor. Poor Colin, but he handled it like a class act.
# E 2015-03-20 16:41
And it really seems that this is the attitude that is informing the writers at the moment. Even Jensen thinks Sam is selfish! And unless fans who think otherwise SAY something, nothing will change. Poor Jared, he's such a sweet, kind hearted man, I am sure this kind of thing must get to him… how could it not?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 15:45
Did Jensen really say that? I'm disappointed because as far as I know Jared is always very complimentary about Dean. Maybe the brainwashing has been complete and even Jared feels that Sam is a disappointment to Dean. Wow is that a disheartening thought.
# eilf 2015-03-20 21:28
So I have to say. I didn't like him doing that, partly because I didn't agree with it, and partly it was disappointing (both at the con and on Winchester Bros). However I really believe that he was having a tough time of it and had character bleed and that was what was going on there. And I have never seen it happen before which is why it was so out-of-left-fie ld for me.

But I don't think it is fair to just give that side of the story, I have also seen a Tumblr post (so I am not giving away anyone's secrets) someone who posted a pretty detailed report for both of J2's M&G (which you are NOT allowed do) at a recent con and that person asked both of them a question about the other one - and Jensen apparently used up a huge proportion of his time with a long and detailed description of how impressed he is with Jared's skills as an actor, and how he has developed over the years (considering how young he was when he started on the show) He was really very complimentary. So I think we should just put the other thing down to an off-week - pity though.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 21:52
I agree it could've been an off-week or character bleed, but it makes me wonder. I would never doubt how much Jensen cares for Jared, but if Jensen truly feels that way about Sam (and of course that would result mostly from how Sam is now being written) maybe it affects his acting choices. Dean has acted pretty distant from Sam this entire season. It just seems really off to me. So maybe that's partly a result of how Jensen views Sam. Just theorizing, maybe Dean acts that way because of the MOC. But there is not the same closeness and protectiveness that Dean has pretty consistently shown towards Sam.
# eilf 2015-03-20 22:19
It is like they want to show that Dean is not Dean but they aren't willing to go there so it is all guesswork for us. I think that since a) Dean has really not addressed any of the things he has done (which he ought to address instead of burying his head in the sand) since the beginning of season 9 and b) he is going darkside with the MOC, and c) he really is ramping up to killing Sam - since that IS the geas the mark places on people, it would look too odd for them to be all huggy and buddies, so Dean basically has to be more distant and Jensen play him that way. Also Dean being all close and affectionate with the statue (with very active acting-eyes) they are forcing Sam to be would look kinda weird. :P
I just saw a thing where Jensen said they are playing the brother stuff in quiet affectionate ways with pats on the shoulder and stuff like that, but I dunno where that is in the episodes?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 22:41
I haven't noticed any of that either. Maybe I sneezed and missed it. Your reasons for the distance between them make sense, but it's killing me. It's been over a year since they really seemed like brothers to me. This season better end with the mother of all bro hugs; highly unlikely, I know. BTW, I loved your referring to Sam as a statue (with very active acting eyes, no less). I should start noting all the various descriptions of Sam's role this year. I myself have referred to him as a coat rack, and I've heard him referred to as wallpaper, a potted plant (wait, that might also have been me!) Lurch (oops, that was me too) and various other things. We should have a contest and people can vote on the best description of Sam.
# percysowner 2015-03-20 22:49
I used sexy lamp ("http://sjwiki .org/wiki/Sexy_ lamp_test")
# eilf 2015-03-20 22:56
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 23:09
OK, that's more accurate than any of mine because even standing there silently he's pretty damn sexy- certainly sexier than a coat rack or Lurch. You won the first round: Percysowner 1, samandean 0.
# E 2015-03-21 07:16
I've used "guest towels."
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 09:41
I really like that one because the "sexy" is implied. It took a minute to sink in and then I remembered guest towels are strictly decorative. Nice one E! Extra points for subtlety.
# E 2015-03-21 10:04
# sylvia37 2015-03-21 00:07
Dean actually slaps Jared on the arm during their BM moment at the end of the episode when he tells Sam he shouldn't feel guilty about Kit. Go back and look at it.
# E 2015-03-21 07:15
That makes sense eilf… I just wish that they would be more obvious about it. Dean doesn't seem distant because of the Mark to me, he just seems like the Dean we've been getting since season 8; impatient, a bit cool, no sense of humor, dictatorial. I can find no difference in him from the way he's been since 9x11 when he first took on the Mark even though that was supposed to be some kind of defining moment. The pacing on this is ridiculous. Now, after a momentous event like Dean killing Cain, Dean, once again seems completely unfazed, completely in control, basically his normal old self; I'm not sure why he thinks he is doomed, he seems just fine to me, he can go on indefinitely to a ripe old age the way he is now. There was one teeny, tiny little moment when Dean first opened the water bottle in front of a very dehydrated Cole, gave him a seemingly cool look and said "sorry" that I wondered for about .3 seconds if that was Dean being a bit cruel because of the Mark, but it was gone so fast that I put it down to me reaching, me trying to find ANYTHING to show that he even has the Mark, and that he might be experiencing some effects from killing Cain, but I dismissed that blip of a moment as being me reading into things, rather than something planned by TPTB because it wasn't clear.

And if they wanted to show distance between the brothers then they need to SHOW it from both sides. But to do that then they'd have to have Sam respond to things, react to the distance and maybe even seem oh, I don't know…. hurt by it? But they don't seem willing to do that because that would mean that they have to write from Sam's perspective. I find it funny, that in an episode with anvils flying about that there wasn't something more obvious subtext regarding the mark going on.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 09:45
It's funny you mention the water because when he did that I remarked to my son that it was both cruel and foolish. It's like waving the red towel in front of a raging bull. A bull who he hadn't bothered to tie up. So maybe the writer was actually being subtle and showing that the MOC is making Dean meaner and almost eager for a battle.
# E 2015-03-21 10:15
A bit too subtle IMO to be anything worth noting, especially in an episode dripping with heavy handed obviousness. They really don't have to do much more to make it clear; maybe have Jensen smile a bit, relish the water a bit, drink slowly, lick his lips etc.. have Cole notice and wonder… etc.. then have him forget about it because of his struggle. Like they did with Soulless Sam when he watched Dean get turned; that awful snarling smirk…..and I was like "Is Sam SMILING! Holy Crap!" It was clear something was up without us knowing what that something was. Here we actually know that the something is, so it would be in their best interest to let us see it. But as eilf says, the writers are so busy protecting the sanctity of Saint Dean that they can't bring themselves to do anything that could be seen as being negative or cruel with him even though he has an evil entity attached to him and that negativeness can be mitigated later by Dean's endless supply of guilt. That's why this whole MoC thing doesn't work, it can't work because the writers can't write it and still have Dean be the untouchable hero/saint at the same time, so we get watered down Demon Dean who was an absolute joke, and now we get supposedly spiraling down Dean who shows no signs at all that he's any different than before.
# percysowner 2015-03-21 10:35
The scene was ambiguous. It could have been Dean being sadistic, which is what I thought at the time. But after reading the review. I remembered that the point of the sweat lodge was to make the worm look for host with more water in him, so Dean drinking the water in front of Cole could also be seen as waving a treat in front of a dog, or a carrot in front of a donkey, something to get the worm to leave Cole and go for the guy with the water. It would have been nice for some clarification and frankly, only Jensen looking like he was enjoying the way seeing the water affected Cole gave any indication that the Mark could be coming into play.
# lala2 2015-03-20 23:26
As far as I know, both Jared and Jensen called Sam selfish. Neither actor liked the way Sam acted last year.
# eilf 2015-03-21 00:03
I would like to to see quotes on that Lala, where did you see that? Jared was happy with the arc a lot of the way through the season. He started to emphasize that Sam needed a brother-saving win towards the end of the season when the writers chickened out on the posession storyline but that isn't the same thing as not liking the way Sam acted.

And honestly how anyone (even Jared) could say it is SAM who acted badly last season still manages to blow my mind. Not only by the normal rules of reasonable behavior but also by Dean's own rules. It wasn't Sam who 1) made a deal with an angel 2) had his brother possessed 3) made a deal with a demon 4) got involved in supernatural powers without finding out what was behind them 5) had his brother tortured and was going to have him killed if that was what it took 6) turned into a monster.
All of those are things Dean doesn't approve of. ALL of them.
Sam said some acid home-truths to Dean, the sort of things and worse Dean has said to Sam, AFTER Dean had done all but #6 above. That was it.
If it were the other way round we would be calling this scenario (WORSE than) season 4.
# lala2 2015-03-21 14:13
From everything I read last year, Jared did not appear to be happy w/the writing for Sam or the story, in general. Here is an article - TV Guide Article (" supernatural-se ason9-finale-sp oilers-jared-pa dalecki-1082061 /") - where Jared says Sam did a lot of things that upset Jared in S9. Plus, at the JIB convention last year, someone reported back a bunch of quotes from Jared where Jared said he didn't like it when the brothers fought (which is a change from how he used to feel) and that he wanted Sam to be there for Dean more than he has in the past. I also read another interview from him in the last year where he didn't seem happy w/the story. I'm not as good as finding these articles as others :)

Now, I know a lot of Sam girls (and by Sam girl I mean someone who prefers Sam over the other characters) loved his speeches in ST and TP, but as a bi-bro fan (someone who truly loves them both Sam and Dean equally), I thought those speeches were needlessly harsh and cruel. Everything Sam said could have been said in a less harsh way, a way that would not have been so easily misunderstood. And, I know Sam said “same circumstances,” but the show, the actors, and the characters all disregarded that part of the comment. Sam's comment was universally - on the show at least - understood to mean Sam wouldn’t save Dean period. An interview w/JA confirmed this, and JP seemed to have interpreted the words the same way, which is why he changed the line in the finale from "I didn't know this would happen"
to "I lied."

In short, everything I read last year seemed to show that JP didn’t like those speeches and didn’t like the tension/conflic t btw the brothers. I, personally, think if the writing were tighter and had given Sam more POV on his feelings, Jared might not have had issues playing the conflict. He may feel like he doesn’t understand the conflict so it’s harder to play. At the end, I wasn't sure what upset Sam. Was it the possession? Was it Kevin's death? Who knows? The writing was not clear. I just know I felt like Sam was thrown under the bus w/those speeches.

I also think Jared is sick of Sam's loyalty to Dean always being questioned!
# Sharon 2015-03-21 14:30
Which is why we have ended up with the Sam we have this season. Jared or Jensen can see it how ever they like if both or either believe Sam is either selfish or wrong or his reaction should of been more in line with the co-dependent idea of the brothers relationship that is their right. I only know how I felt about last season and how abuse of Sam has become standard storytelling on the show and even when he is the one at the wrong end of decision like the one Dean made last season he still emerges as the brother who has to 'prove' himself.

I suppose Sam's speech in the Purge did not affect me as much has others was because Dean has come out with equally nasty words that alot took on face value and decided that it was either provoked or Sam's actions had 'asked' for it. The fuss over the Purge was not something I could ever go along with and it came across as a tad hypocritical.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 16:15
It's true that Dean has said MANY more harsh things to Sam than Sam has to Dean. From "you're a monster" to "I can never trust you again" to 'Benny has been a better brother" etc. But there's never any blowback about that or subsequent apologies from Dean. I guess the writers think Dean is always justified when he's being cruel.
# Sharon 2015-03-21 16:30
And that makes a whole big problem and a near impossible situation for Sam on the show and within the brothers relationship that was very self evident in the writing and reaction to his infamous words in the Purge.
# lala2 2015-03-21 16:33
I, personally, hated Dean's speech in that cursed penny episode b/c it was OOC and illogical. Dean really blames Sam for being soulless when that WAS OUT OF SAM'S CONTROL?!?!?! Really? And then Carver goes and has Dean reiterate all that nonsense again in the S8 finale! Ugh . . . . that speech bothered me quite a bit. I do recall people ranting about it, but those rants didn't last as long as the rants re: Sam last year, but they also didn't have Dean repeating his rant episode after episode or declaring they weren't brothers . . . . ugh . . . these writers always go too far w/Sam, IMO. I attribute that to a genuine lack of concern w/how Sam is perceived. That's JMO though. YMMV.
# eilf 2015-03-21 20:27
# lala2 2015-03-21 16:34
Double post.
# lala2 2015-03-21 16:29
Sharon, I think the Sam we're seeing this year is the result of a regime that doesn't understand Sam and doesn't know his voice so they simply can't write for him. I honestly don't think this regime knows how to do it. Kripke wasn't always good at it, but others on his team could write for Sam. Carver, on the other hand, seems clueless about Sam. I base that on his S8 decision for Sam. If he knew anything about Sam, he would have know that Sam would have looked for Dean. Sam is an incredibly strong character as was evidenced by his decision to take on his Hell memories and the entirety of S7. I don't think Dean's disappearance would have broken Sam, but if it had, a good writer would have told us that story.

But S8 aside, Sam is w/o the mytharc in S10 so this team has no clue what to do w/him. They don't know how to write for him, which was evidenced - to me at least - by the inarticulate way Sam "expressed" himself last year w/r/t the possession. I can honestly say it was never clear to me WHY Sam was upset, and I know some may say, "Well, Lala, he was upset b/c Dean allowed something to possess him," . . . okay, but that was never made clear. I always thought Sam would have used Dean's refusal to be turned into a zombie in S3 as a good analogy to his own situation in S9. Sam used to be a pretty articulate guy but last year it was all vague, harsh comments and then it was dropped. Instead of focusing on the possession, some writer decided to let Sam indict Dean's whole character. It was overly harsh and way too much. I hated that speech as much as I hated Dean's speech in that cursed penny episode in S8.

This year, Sam is in the supportive role. That role does not have to be passive or boring, but since these writers don't understand Sam and can't write for him, we're getting passive, wallpaper, "Jared may as well be home w/his wife and kids" Sam.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 16:11
Thanks for that article lala. I remember reading that Jared was very nervous about the Season 8 plot where he didn't look for Dean, and with good reason as it turns out. He never got to explain that to Dean sufficiently in a way that would allow Dean or the fans to understand and accept that EXTREMELY uncharacteristi c action by Sam. But like the loyal person he is he never really criticized the decision, and his payback was an even worse plot twist in Season 9. You're right that the writers never allowed Sam to articulate the many compelling reasons why what Dean had done had violated Sam's trust and control over his own body. Instead, all of his speeches to Dean were calculated by the writers to make him look like an ungrateful a-hole. I know most people thought his speech in TP was particularly harsh, but if you look at the full context it doesn't seem as bad. Dean has just told Sam in a very aggressive way that he would do the same thing again, ie "screw you, I don't care how you feel about what I did to you." And I don't know why everyone ignores the "same circumstances." That said, I agree that there were at least 500 ways to write that speech that would have portrayed Sam's POV sympathetically . The reason Jared now minds brotherly conflict is that it is ALWAYS depicted in a way that puts Dean in a sympathetic light and Sam in a terrible light. Also, I love to hear from bi-bro fans who agree with the lamentable treatment of Sam by the show. It confirms that my feelings about this are not the rantings of a Sam-obsessed loon. Because I'm as close to being bi-bro as you can be, without actually being bi-bro- if that makes sense.
# lala2 2015-03-21 17:06
You're welcome :-)

Jared is not stupid. He knows the show, the fans, and his character. He knew the S8 story wouldn't go over well w/o a good explanation, so I'm not surprised he was nervous. I'm sure he read the scripts and thought, "Okay . . . this is not gonna be pretty." I felt so bad for Jared that year b/c he kept having to answer the question of why Sam didn't look for Dean over and over again. What was he supposed to say? He was never given a real reason so he just had to make up stuff. I never held it against Sam b/c I love him, but those who already hate the character just used his not looking as further "evidence" that Sam doesn't love Dean as much as Dean loves Sam. I hate that crap b/c it isn't true. I think that's why Jared was so excited for this season. At the end of last year, he was going around talking about Sam saving Dean and that he really hoped they would let Sam show his love for Dean in that manner (i.e., saving Dean) as Dean has done for Sam so many times. I wonder how he feels now. IMO, he has been screwed over again by this regime.

I confess to honestly forgetting Sam said "same circumstances." Haha! My bi-bro loving heart was broken after TP. I absolutely hated, detested, and despised every word of that speech. I think that's why I forgot that line. The entire speech was just so harsh to me that I was left reeling from it. Ha! I was pretty devastated (not really but you know what I mean :)) after that episode. I remember ranting on other boards (not here of course) after that episode about how I didn't care anymore if the brothers split up. In fact, I would have been happy if they had split up after that episode.

And I must say I didn't interpret Dean's declaration that he would do it again as a "screw you," but more as a "of course, I would do what I had to save your life." Because the show went above and beyond in explaining Dean's actions in the S9 premiere (unlike anything they have EVER done w/poor Sam), I felt I had a really good understanding of why Dean did what he did. I did not view it as a selfish action. He was desperate. It was understandable to me. Sam stopped the trials to live. Gadreel told him Sam's body was dying. He visited Sam's mind and saw that Sam was giving up (not in a suicidal way but in an inevitable way). He vetted Gadreel or Zeke as best he could have. If Sam died, then he may as well have completed the trials. I never really saw it as Dean imposing his will on Sam. He was just desperate and made a decision. Was it his decision to make? No, but do I think he is an evil, awful, selfish, horrible brother for doing what he did? No, I don't. Do I think he should have told Sam sooner that Gadreel/Zeke was possessing him and then let Sam make his own decision about whether the possession would continue? Yes.

Like I said, I like both brothers equally so I usually see both their POVs. I knew Sam would be upset, and I was fine w/him being upset. I just wish the writers had gotten together and decided on the reason for him being upset so they would all be on the same page and it wouldn't come off so "wishy-washy." In the Garth episode, Dean basically declared himself as the problem and went to leave, but Sam tells him to not leave thinking that was the problem b/c it wasn't. Okay, but in TP, Sam basically says Dean is the problem so what did he mean in ST? Huh? What? I honestly felt like Sam was speaking in riddles last year. Haha!

Oh, and you are definitely not a "Sam-obsessed loon." On other boards, I've been accused of being a "Sam Stan" or not really liking Dean b/c I complain a lot about the writing for Sam. And that's b/c the writing for Sam is pretty bad, IMO. I have far more complaints re: Sam when it comes to the writing than w/Dean.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 17:24
Actually, I thought one of the few things the writers let Sam explain was "that's not the problem." Dean had said that he was leaving because he was poison and didn't want to drag anyone through the muck with him, and Sam responded with his line about the problem. Then in TP conversation, right after Dean says he'd do it again I said to my daughter "and THAT's the problem" and lo and behold Sam echoed me. My daughter was very impressed with my ESP. So I understood Sam to mean that in his view the problem wasn't that all of Dean's actions and choices turn out bad because Dean is poison, but rather that even knowing what Dean now does about the terrible consequences of his possession decision, he'd still do it again. Of course the writers didn't let Sam express until the finale why that would have felt like a slap in the face to Sam- because he's the one waking up at night seeing his hands killing Kevin. But essentially I agree that Sam is never allowed to explain his actions/feeling s in a meaningful and sympathetic way.
# lala2 2015-03-21 19:08
I must admit that I have only watched those episodes once when they originally aired so I can't recall the specific dialogue. I guess I'd have to watch them again to see how I feel now, but I have no desire to do so. Haha! My sister got me the DVDs for Christmas but I have yet to open them. A fresh look could provide a new perspective though.

Thanks for giving me your take on those speeches. I wish they had been a bit clearer and more structured. Sam was right to be angry but the sympathetic view was completely w/Dean, which was odd.
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 04:21
I guess I'd have to watch them again to see how I feel now
If you ever decide to do sympathy in advance.
# lala2 2015-03-22 09:30
LOL :)
# eilf 2015-03-21 20:25
Yes but you are ignoring a couple of points. I am sorry you feel that only a Samgirl would take into account the validity of the 'same circumstances line. And I don't agree that it is 'universally understood' it might be universally understood by a few people but not by everyone ... it is important to know who Sam is and why he does things but, and so the conversation in TP was not that unreasonable from Sam's point of view. And there was a fair amount of truth in it.

the show may be ignoring the line but the actors were not at the time. Things changed.

Sam's anger was not insurmountable. Sam was hurt and angry. What he said was actually said very gently and quietly, it was just determined, he felt he needed to get through to Dean because Dean wasn't listening. He wasn't really listening in Sacrifice either and the was clear to Sam too. Dean is just not used to having SAM tell him he is wrong.

Jared discussed the situation at a con - at that stage he believed, as many people did (and still do) that what what Dean did was wrong and was being portrayed as such. Sam gave Dean several weeks to admit he had done something wrong and it was Dean who wouldn't back down. Dean who wouldn't admit that his brother is his equal and not his possession. Jared specifically refers to the 'same circumstances' clause - which includes all the things I listed I think. Sam was basically saying he would never have broken all the rules Dean lived by the way Dean had. It was NOT unreasonable. Dean has said worse things to Sam.

Jared got his character shafted. They changed the rules of the entire thing because they bailed on the storyline. By the end of the season there were stupid Destiel baiting storylines, really stupid offshoot show episodes and everyone was telling Sam he was wrong to stand up for his rights as an individual (either directly or indirectly in anvil storylines) Jared HAD to backtrack, what he was under the impression the story was it turns out it wasn't.

In the meantime Jensen is getting overloaded by too much work and by a feeling that he 'no longer liked Dean'. Why would he feel like that if it is Sam who is supposed to be the ungrateful one.

My touchstone on this is always the question of 'how would this be judged if Sam did it?
If Sam had Dean possessed? We know how Dean feels about possession even though it rarely happens to him. We know that he feels Sam being possessed should result in Sam getting hit in the face afterwards
If Sam lied to Dean about the possesseion What do we know about Deans opinion of Sam lying to him?
If Kevin had been killed because of something Sam did? Wouldn't that be a stick to beat Sam with?
If Sam had worked with an angel (not Castiel) - Dean detests angels.
If Sam had made a deal with a demon? (let's ask Dean about how he feels about Ruby. Its been about a dozen episodes since he last had a go about that).
If Sam had gotten a brother killing irremovable mark just because Dean was pissed at him.

I wonder who would be calling Dean harsh if he called Sam selfish and self centered and uninterested in what Dean wanted. (Oh wait, after all that, Dean got to do that AS WELL.) How many seasons before Dean stopped mentioning it either seriously or as a joke every other week?

There are different ruies for Sam and Dean, there always have been, Sam gets absolutely no leeway and Dean doesn't get judged no matter what, and to be truly bi-bro would be to call the writers on it.

I am sick of Sam's loyalty to Dean always being questioned too but it is more the fandom doing it than the show IMO.
# lala2 2015-03-21 23:14
Wow . . . you completely misunderstood my posts.

First, I never said only Sam girls heard "same circumstances" or considered it valid. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I simply said I forgot he said it. I genuinely did not remember he said it until someone reminded me of it later. I was only speaking about myself and no one else. I never re-watched the episode so when speaking about it, I would usually just go w/the initial reaction I had when I saw the episode, which was, "Wow. So Sam wouldn't save Dean and doesn't want to be brothers?!?! Why are they throwing him under the bus again this year?" Someone over on pointed out the "same circumstances," which I admit didn't change my opinion too much at the time b/c I was far too upset w/the crap (IMO) writing for Sam, and I still thought the rest of the speeches were pretty harsh. Do I think Sam had a valid reason to be upset? Sure. Do I think the show actually gave voice to that reason? No, I do not. Sam's speeches were focused on Dean instead of on Sam, how Sam felt, what Sam was going through, and why Sam was so upset. And b/c it was such a harsh indictment of Dean as a person, many viewers, incl. myself, didn't care for the speeches. That's just my opinion. I do not feel I'm ignoring anything. I'm just giving my perspective on it.

And, second, I qualified my "universally understood" statement by saying I was referring to the show (i.e., the characters). I am not talking about the fans. Sam's speech was understood by Dean to mean he wouldn't save Dean period. The writers never had Sam correct that misbelief so it became the belief on the show. That was a writing flaw. A similar thing happened in S8 when Dean and everyone kept harping on Sam not "saving" Dean when Sam clearly said he thought Dean had died. But back to S9, that's why we had multiple scenes of Dean being hurt and then looking surprised that Sam was there to help him. In my mind, that was the point of that line in the finale . . . to clear up any confusion about whether Sam would actually save Dean.

I actually don't disagree w/a lot of what you're saying here. I know if the S9 premiere had played out the same way w/the positions reversed, I would have understood Sam. Those who hate Sam would have just hated him more but it's a waste of time - IMO - to argue w/those people. They hate Sam for breathing and existing on the show. He can do no right for them except this year when he is practically non-existent but I digress. I agree that Sam's loyalty is always being questioned. I agree that if the story had been in reverse, we likely wouldn't have gotten a lengthy explanation for Sam's actions b/c of the focus would have been on Dean in his coma. I agree that Sam frequently gets the shaft when it comes to POV and writing.

Where we disagree is on the fallout of the possession. I don't think it was handled well. That is my opinion. I didn't like Sam's speeches. I thought they were unnecessarily cruel and OTT. They didn't hit at the heart of the issue IMO. I didn't agree w/Sam's "home truths" b/c I don't see Dean in the harsh way he described.

But I am not trying to fight w/you or upset people on this board. I usually lurk and keep my opinions to myself so I will get back to doing that :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-22 09:25
Please don't go back to lurking lala. I enjoy hearing the bi-bro perspective on things and I agree with most of your analysis.
# E 2015-03-22 19:38
Me too lala… you know how much I love when you de-lurk!
# eilf 2015-03-21 20:29
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 15:43
I'm sorry, but as a relatively new fan I don't know about the PETA incident, but I suddenly have a burning desire to know. Please share with the class.
# E 2015-03-20 16:20
Hi… It was at the Vancouver Con in 2009. A very rude fan asked Jared about his support of PETA as one of his preferred charities. She then went on to spout off all sorts of criticisms of him for his support of a charity that was actually euthanizing animals (like they have a choice in that) and how that charity was so awful. You can still find the videos out there online. Jared was clearly stunned, and seemed quite hurt. Jensen was openly annoyed and tried to move the questions on and shut the speaker down, but Jared actually answered her in a great way by basically saying "it's too bad you feel the need to criticize someone else's charitable works" or something to that effect. He was a real gentleman about it but still put her in her place as well. Then after that panel, apparently Jensen went back stage and went ballistic on the Con crew asking why she wasn't removed or had her mic taken away etc.. Its after this is when I though that they wanted to know what questioners were going to ask ahead of time. It also could be the reason that they went from having a microphone roving the seated crowd to the lines up to a single mic that they have now. It's easier to escort an unruly fan away from a microphone at the edge of the stage then to try to get to them in the middle of a huge auditorium of seats. Anyway Jensen was enormously upset for Jared's sake which is the only bright moment in this otherwise ugly event.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 16:41
I'll try to find the videos. But your example is one reason why I'm not sure I'd ever go to a Con even if I could afford it. When I watch the videos it often seems very entertaining, especially when the Js go off on tangents or start feeding off each other and getting crazier and crazier. But most of the questions (at least in the videos) seem to be silly or just weirdly emotional. I love that the Js are so supportive and welcoming of their fans, but when questioners start crying I always feel like they're wasting time and preventing others from getting to ask their questions. I sometimes think I'd find the experience more annoying than fun. Although I'd love to be proved wrong someday!
# njspnfan 2015-03-20 17:56
Youtube to the rescue - here's the YouTube video if you are interested
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 18:28
Thank you for doing the work for me! I was literally just about to google it but I scrolled through the comments first and saw your post. Jared really handled it well. But even before that question he seemed kind of subdued compared to other Con videos I've seen.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-03-20 18:50
Oh believe me I have a growing list of questions concerning the show, not questions like "Who would you have a man crush on". I understand your point of "Considering how much money they spend on the cons they should be entitled to ask whatever interests them", but there is always a part of me that is annoyed at such questions. Its much easier on you Americans to get the chance to ask your questions relating to the show to J2, but for me in the UK? One chance per year and sadly not getting the chance this year.

In my dream world I'd have the chance to talk to J2 alone with 100% chance I'd talk about the plots, characters etc (okay maybe 1% of it would be about Jared's hair XD). I came into this show for the characters not the hunky guys. In fact if it wasn't for the anime I'd never have discovered, let alone watched the live action.

Okay I'm done. Sorry for rambling.
# eilf 2015-03-20 19:47
Oh you know what I would like. I would like for Robbie Thompson to be stuck beside me on an airplane, wouldn't I bend his ear! ;) He drives me nuts because he is actually a good-ish writer and he uses his power for evil (hyperbole, but also true).

I wasn't really trying to negate your argument, I just meant that though the chance to ask questions gets sadly abused/wasted the entire con experience with flights and accomodations and the whole pallaver seems to cost a humongous amount of money and honestly you couldn't get me to one of those microphones so I personally shouldn't complain that my question doesn't get answered ;)

Apparently the experience of having them both look at you is a bit like deer-in-headlig hts - it is absolutely ridiculous that two perfectly ordinary (and that's a compliment) people should be that excessively good-looking - so possibly people get distracted...

Anyway, while I live in America, and there is a con 6 hours drive from me in New Jersey *waves at E* I am actually not American, I am from near your part of the world :D so 'hi, fellow next-door islander'

Actually the con in Boston would be nearer for me now that I think about it .... plots ....

Why shouldn't you ramble? It's still wintertime, what else is there to do except gossip?
# E 2015-03-20 22:35
Hi eilf! *waves back!* You wouldn't happen to live in Maine would you? I grew up there!
# eilf 2015-03-20 22:59
Hi E, no I am in Vermont, Maine is supposed to be pretty but with large tracts of nowt but trees?
# E 2015-03-21 07:21
Nowt but trees for sure! :p:p The whole upper 2/3rds of the state. Pretty much everything north and west…. it gives the word "rural" a whole new context! Vermont is beautiful too, I've been there many times.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 12:22
Can I visit you in your dream world? I promise I'd only ask substantive questions!
# njspnfan 2015-03-20 08:01
nicknicknicknic k - I will try to respond to your question on why this gets brought up in a lot of articles. This isn't children's sports, where you don't keep score and everybody's a winner. You get judged on your work product, your results. If people aren't held to higher standards, you end up with the mess that is Season 10 Supernatural (or just about any sitcom on TV nowadays). They are capable of better work and this appears to be one of the few avenues to remind them of that, especially when the writers spend a good part of their time on social media, soaking in the accolades from the sycophants, instead of spending time on plot development and good writing.

I'm happy for you that you are enjoying the season but, to flip your argument around, why would another's negative opinion of an episode affect your enjoyment? I've liked some episodes that have been generally panned in the reviews, and disliked some episodes that are viewed favorably by the majority of fans. In both cases, I still enjoy reading the reviews and comments to see what others have to say.
# Prix68 2015-03-20 10:20
So let me get this straight, people who praise the show on social media are mindless yes men, because in your opinion the writers are not doing their jobs properly and can only learn to do better when brought to heel by better, more critical commenters like yourself on social media like fan sites? Did I interpret your remarks correctly?
# njspnfan 2015-03-20 10:46
Thank you for your dose of self-righteous indignation and, no, you did not interpret my comments correctly but are, of course, free to interpret them as you wish. From my experience, the Supernatural writers on twitter and other social media platforms do not take kindly to any sort of criticism whatsoever, constructive or otherwise, and only want to see positive feedback.
# Prix68 2015-03-20 11:23
You are welcome. Aparently, it's not just SPN writers who don't take kindly to any sort of criticism. :)
# njspnfan 2015-03-20 11:32
on the contrary, i am perfectly fine with criticism, constructive or otherwise ;)
# Alice 2015-03-21 00:48
Prix, that was hardly a fair interpretation. I usually like what you have to say, but this was just a mean attack. You've gone and put words into njspnfan's mouth. Please keep comments like this to yourself in the future. Thank you.
# Sylvie 2015-03-20 08:19
I get where you're coming from. I don't expect SPN to be as great in season 10 as it was in season 3, but I still very much enjoy it, so it does sadden me a little when I read negative reviews. But everyone is entitled to their opinions, negative, positive or middle of the road. When I want to feel good about SPN reviews I check in to a different site, doesn't mean I'm not checking out this one also. WFB was my very first Internet site about SPN and it introduced me to the cons, so I'm sticking around come Hell or high water! :P
# spnlit 2015-03-20 15:14
What other site do you check out to augment your reading on reviews or to get a different perspective?
Chloé Marino
# Chloé Marino 2015-03-20 10:37
Thanks for saying that. I think that i'm only going to come to the website to get the news about the show. I love reading reviews of shows, but reading those just makes me sad now. I still enjoy the show for what it is, and anyway my opinion on the show is at odds with most fans (I really liked season 7 and 8, what can I say). I jut feel back for the crew working its ass off and getting so much hate, and for years now. I get why Kripke and Gamble left.
# Alice 2015-03-20 11:08
I do accept that my tone is often negative anymore (although I gave a very positive review of The Executioner's Song), but I've never held back in my criticism of this show and I've been reviewing Supernatural since season three. It's okay if you don't like my reviews, but we have numerous reviewers on this site and most are much more upbeat and happier than I. Don't discount a whole site because of one overly opinionated red head! You can skip my reviews and I wouldn't be offended one bit. But for me to not call it as I see it wouldn't be true to who I've always been as a TV critic.

As a confession, the only reason I continue to review Supernatural is because there are a lot of people out there seven seasons later still interested in what I have to say. I have stats to prove it. Maybe they agree, or perhaps I've just become a habit. I personally feel my reviews have gotten too repetitive, but it's not like Supernatural is challenging me with their narrative. I'm not happy writing negative reviews, that's for sure, but as long as there's still interest, I'll keep going and I'll keep sharing my honest reaction.

Don't worry, the crew and cast aren't feeling the hate. I've met many of them. Fans in this fandom have always had big opinions and they know it. They go out to Vancouver con every year and feel the love and that's the most sincere interaction they have with the fans. I highly doubt one review is bringing them down.
# nicknicknicknick 2015-03-20 12:47
Thanks for the replies, everyone. Alice, thank you, I hope you didn't feel any offense about my comment. (And yes, obviously I'm still here, after my dramatic goodbye speech.) :) Maybe it's just me - reading negative reactions to something I found enjoyable puts a dampener on my enthusiasm, as much as (as njspnfan says) it really shouldn't. But I'm sure there would be others who feel the same. Maybe it's a psychology thing - when you feel positive but encounter negativity, the end result is a pull towards negativity. But if you're already negative (say, the unhappy viewer) and you encounter positivity, you either remain negative or feel more positive. Either way, there is more of a dampening effect for the positive viewer than for the negative. That's how I see it at least. If that makes any sense. And if it doesn't, then you can lump me in with certain SPN writers. :P :P

Regarding the questioning being shut down during cons, I believe there was a report not too long ago about someone asking the producers how, if they could, they would go back and fix their mistakes in Season 9. I'll go and do some digging about and see if I can find a link - does anyone know what I'm referring to?

At the very least, I'm glad to be able to stimulate some discussion here. :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 14:41
I just read a summary of Jensen's Meet and Greet at VegasCon and when, in response to a Q about Demon Dean he started talking about how he would have liked for it to last longer, he cut himself off and remarked that there were writers in the room. I assumed he meant SPN writers. Maybe he doesn't want to offend them, or maybe he knows they don't respond well to criticism.
# sylvia37 2015-03-20 16:41
If you are looking for reviews that are usually positive and have positive comments on them, then you should check out Fangasm ("fangasmtheboo /"). They are pretty consistent in their enjoyment of the show and although they occasionally may speak of something they didn't like, it's always in a positive manner.
# Alice 2015-03-21 01:07
I was at that con! It was Vancouver con, and someone asked the panel of producers about fixing the issues with the season nine storyline. They shut down this person, pretty much saying that the ratings speak otherwise. They weren't open to the criticism at all, yet one of the producers (I believe it was Russ Hamilton) did ask for specific examples. When she gave one (I think it was too many storylines), the fans booed her out of the room. Adam Glass went on to say that they are telling the stories that they want to tell now and they can't please all fans. It was an atrocity and it really made the writers/produce rs look delusional. That's because they are. The show makes oodles of money now and ratings don't matter. They can tell whatever story they want. Yet critically, the show is not even relevant anymore. Even several of my long time blogger/critic friends have given up on the show. It's sad.

I do agree, I compare to much to seasons of old. It doesn't have to be that good. But I write for other shows too (The 100, The Originals, Arrow) and they all put way better attention into their plotting, quality of work and just storylines that add up and make sense. So do other genre shows like Person of Interest and most anything on cable. They aren't perfect, but they're putting in a much better effort. I realize shows in season ten go into maintenance mode, but it still sucks when you're a long time fan that watches the current staff totally decimate everything that used to make this show great and really not care.

I'm ranting though. No offense taken nicknicknicknic k. I'm pleased to see some are happy. Here's the link to our con report at that Vancouver con BTW for the producer's panel:
# eilf 2015-03-21 01:18
I watched the first few episodes of Sleepy Hollow, Alice and I could have cried at the thought of what the SPN actors could have done with writing and a storyline as good as it was, it was light and funny and complex. There were multiple characters, some were POC and some were women! (There is such a neat special effect too with someone's eyes filled with smoke (you have to see it, it's clever) ).

I fell behind and I don't have a TV so I haven't been able to watch it since. Now I get that SH is Fox and has loads more money. But you don't need money for dialogue - and that is what SPN is sorely in need of.
# nicknicknicknick 2015-03-21 13:34
Ahhh but the second season of SH received some terrible criticism from fans and critics alike which resulted in a drop in viewership and overall ratings, so much so that for a while there nobody knew if it was going to be renewed or canceled (it just very recently got renewed, but not after the showrunner stepped down and a replacement was found). You can read all about it here:

I was/am an SH fan as well, so when I look at what's just happened in its second season, I get a bit of a sense of gratitude - things can go south pretty quicky, as in Sleepy's case, while we SPN lovers have had multiple solid years of high-quality episodes before the decline.
# Alice 2015-03-23 00:00
Agreed, the second season of SH was really bad. However, they have a chance for a turn around with a third season renewal and a new show runner. The bad news, it looks like Fox wants the show to go with more standalone stories.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 17:24
Alice, please add me to the number of fans who is interested in what you have to say. While I usually agree with your opinions, even when I don't I find them insightful and entertaining.
# Bevie 2015-03-20 16:39
nicknicknicknic k -I couldn't agree with you more. The joy I used to feel coming here is now more dread of what I'm going to see and usually, with the exception of a few reviewers (really really miss 'sweetondean', always an uplift even with the not so great episodes) and a very few commenters, mostly kills the enthusiasm to linger here long.

Even stating how depressing it is sometimes the happy commenters are weighted down by the negative opinions and made to
feel as if somehow they are inferior because they blindly love a show that in their opinions has sadly departed from the sheer brilliance of its beginnings. Sigh! Reminds me of the long ago days reading the comments at "TVWP". And "TVWP" sent me here
and it was wonderful to find a spot where so many others had love for the show as I had. So thank you for 6 1/2 happy years here!

For me, I'm so grateful to still have it after 10 long years and that it is still my favourite head and shoulders over any other I've ever
followed. And I've been following for more than 50 years now.

By the way, I thought the episode was great, give it an A-, and thought Travis, Jensen and Jared did a great job. Hope Cole will
return and that they don't kill him off. That Khan worm thing was utterly disgusting!!:p Great effects! And the few folks I know who watch the show, liked it as well. But then they are never looking at a Supernatural fan site as they are working people with not much
time to waste, unlike me who is retired and have all the time in the world to indulge in fan stuff.

As nicknicknicknic k says - everyone is entitled to an opinion (so I hope I'm entitled to mine). Though I won't stop coming here
just yet as there are still positive reviews to be read once in a while and news to keep up with. And I remember what a sheer
pleasure it used to be.
# CollectiveHunch66 2015-03-20 07:14
Nicknicknicknic k: you've nailed it, for me. Further, the writers/produce rs, et al. own the show. It's their creative endeavor. TV programs are not crowd-sourced.
# Sharon 2015-03-20 07:43
But they are also a product that is being put out there for people to see whether it is TV or a Book or a Film . Creatively SPN is dour and IMO indifferent to Sam and for me my viewship was badly damaged from last season but at the end of the day it is down to the individual to decide if what is being presented is either good , bad, middling or ok.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 08:06
True, but they do sometimes listen to Fan opinions. I believe the fan hatred Bella and some of the women in the early years was a factor in writing them out of the show. If the tide of opinion turns against the show then their choice could come to artistic integrity vs. cancellation. (And I use the term "artistic" loosely).
# percysowner 2015-03-20 10:20
I think it may have been a little more complicated than that. They didn't want Bella in the first place. Kripke wanted Ruby the CW said we think you should add another woman. So they did. They didn't exactly write Bella in a way that made fans love her. The boys were always losing to her, making them look less intelligent, which was not a thing in season three. They left in her shooting Sam at a time where Sam had such bad luck that it was killing everyone who had lost the Rabbit's Foot. So fan reaction was bad. Kripke and Co. go to the CW and say "What can we do? We love the character. You were right to tell us to include her even though she didn't fit in. But those mean, mean fans won't accept her. We need to write her off." And the character the only envisioned as a one shot gets booted.
# njspnfan 2015-03-20 10:48
yep, probably wasn't a good idea to have her shoot Sam :):):)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 14:46
You are probably right about that, but I wonder if they would have kept those characters around longer if they'd proved wildly popular. I think Cas was not supposed to be a long term character but the great fan response to him played a role in keeping him around for as long as it's been. And that's despite the fact that they don't know what to do with him any longer. If he were not as popular I think they would have long since killed him off for good.
# eilf 2015-03-20 11:24
But the tide of opinion is 'yes great, give Dean the MOC*, can we have some Sam too?' I don't really see that that is an artistic integrity v cancellation argument. Honestly if the randomness of the writing and lack of coherent story with no payoff continues .... well there are worse things that can happen to a show (and people's careers) than getting cancelled.

If we stop lobbying to get Sam back, then Jared will be left in the unenviable situation of only having the ACTUAL 'haters' (I don't consider criticism of a storyline to be 'hating' - people are inclined to throw that word around when describing concrit), the ones who just fundamentally dislike Sam (and Jared), commenting on his role in the show. Have a look around at commentary on other sites.

At least this way he is getting some critical feedback that is about his character on the show (and pointing out that we want more of him) and not complimenting his hair (or body). Jared is first and foremost an actor (as is Jensen). Physical compliments would not be all that welcome if that is all the non-hating response they are getting for their role.

I have been thinking that the large group of non-online viewers who have been so faithful to the show for the brothers (both of them) would just get fed up with all this and go find something else to watch. The trend in the ratings this season seem to be backing up that theory somewhat (though I do get that, as Alice outlined above, there are a couple of really good reasons why the ratings might have been as bad as they apparently were for this episode which have nothing to do with the show).

Personally I liked Bella, I thought she was sassy and funny.

*just realised that should have said 'arc' not 'MOC' ah well, better 13 hours late than never
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 15:11
My reference to artistic integrity was in response to the views in some comments that since this is the writers' creative endeavor we shouldn't expect our vocal unhappiness to result in them changing their direction. But I agree with Sharon that the show is a product like anything else. They write/ televise it because people want to watch it. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. They're not genius artists toiling away in obscurity for the sheer joy of creating. When new Coke came out people hated it and were very loud about their hatred, so it was yanked from the market pretty darn fast for a product they'd invested a lot of money in. Sure, the haters just could have stopped buying it and it eventually would have been yanked anyway. But they wanted their old Coke back and sure enough they got it. So there's nothing wrong or improper about voicing our displeasure to TPTB and hoping they'll listen. We could just stop watching and if ratings dropped enough eventually they would cancel the show. But like those Coke drinkers I would rather complain and maybe get back the product I loved than just stifle my criticism because it infringes on their creative license. Just as I suspect that the very vocal Cas fans are the primary reason he's been kept around so long even though the writers no longer know what to do with him. I truly believe they would have killed him off by now exceot for the sizable contingent of Cas lovers. And eilf, I like the idea that Jared knows of the Sam/brother fans who love his character and his acting and want to see more of it. One reason I love this site is because I had seen some ugly anti-Sam and anti-Jared comments in many other forums and that is not the case with this site.
Also, I actually enjoyed Bella as well, but I did feel they let her best the boys too often.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-20 16:57
The trouble is and I think most know that even Kripke got a lot of criticism in his time. At least what I have heard and read. Aaanyway, it was not right to Kripke and it is not right against anyone. Not even these writers. It always turns to "All the writers" even if there is Berens etc etc that actually make marvelous episodes. It is always generalizing to whole group. There is you know "my side, your side, my side, your side" - Stark, Farscape (Guess what series I have been watching... Dammit Stark...), and that means for example you want the criticism of Sam etc to be heard by the writers, but that would mean they should also listen to those that want Sam off the show. This is extreme example but truth. (I am totally against the second sample btw)

What I want and would ask them to change is not more important than someone else that would ask just the opposite. We want Sam's point of view! Nono, we want Sam away! Dean needs a mytharc! No, Dean sucks, toss him out! Who needs Castiel? I hate Crowley! Ugh, change the music! I don't like the scenery... Yeah, the story sucks! And we would end up on a black screen and nothing to see. Everyone would have gotten what they wanted and thought that would be right to the show. But is it right to the show? That is the main question.

These are extremist samples and not my opinions at all so don't bite my head off. ;) Hopefully I am getting my point across though. I mean I like one brother better than the other, but I also like the other one, the stories and the show and I have liked season 10 better than 6-9. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Not in any character nor the story. I have liked every separate MotW episode and even this one. If you remember season one I can't count how many episodes actually were MotW episodes where the main arc "Dad was missing" was said in one sentence and that was it or the brothers talked one conversation about what to do (BM scene). Otherwise it was just hunting. I really don't see the handling much more different than then. But as it is not on topic of Alice's review I don't dwell on that more.

But what I can do is giving Lilah's husband's view of the episode "The Things They Carried" VOL 2!

When Cole met the brothers he still had some of his bitterness left of his father being killed by Dean but as the episode progressed he really started to see what the Winchesters are up against all the time.

And the jokes! It was awesome when Cole called Sam and Dean "The Machete Brothers"! And see my wife squirm because of the worm. I liked the horror and the worm as a monster.

Cole has an influence on the brothers as he got them not to kill Kit and try to save him instead, and later Cole too.

In my opinion this season has been the best of any; the slow progress of the Mark of Cain, the lack of knowledge what's up next and Winchesters going on at weird cases again. I really like not knowing.
- D.K.

My husband don't favor any of the characters, doesn't know about the writers nor their names. He knows the actors name mostly because of me and also he doesn't like the show because I like it but because he truly does like it. He also really hates Rowena. That is the only quibble he has. I am giving her a chance though like I said. He also will never check online stuff like I do and never will. I guess he is my anchor to the untouched watching experience. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

PS. I apologize beforehand of any miss constructed phrases or words I may have used. I just wanted to give my take on the writer issue and so this was not directly to you Samanddean than about the issue, so this was in general and not to you - you... You know. :P
PPS. Sorry about the off topic Alice
PPPS. I made him do it AlyCat!
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 17:23
Yes, you definitely got your point across! Black screen indeed!!! We do give the writers a lot of Hell, thats for sure. I love the Hubsters observations! Machete brothers! See, Cole isn't afraid to stand toe to toe with them and I love it! PPPS: Thank you!!!
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-20 18:48
Well he is a man so he watches the show very differently than me and I like his intake. I mean ohmegard! He doesn't look the boys "that way" ;)
And the blood and the worm he liked too that made me squeal and cover my eyes. I am not proud of that but when you have hemophobia and total disgust to everything that crawls under the skin... Yes, my reaction was just. It seems Supernatural has not made me immune for seeing blood...
And he totally loved the Machete brothers and even designed a poster about it...

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 19:23
A poster! How cool! He's a keeper!!!!! Will we get to see said artwork?
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-20 20:06
Maaaybe, I will post it if and when he gets it finished. Just need to see where... Maybe in the fan art discussion page.

To Be continued. ;)

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 23:46
Thanks! Keep me (us) advised!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 17:57
Lilah I could never be offended by the respectful way you disagreed with me. But just as respectfully (I hope) I will respond to a few of your remarks. Of course the writers could not and should not change the direction of the show at every shift in fan opinions. But where there is a pretty solid contingent of fans who are particularly happy or unhappy about the direction of the show or a particular plot or arc, it would behoove TPTB (sorry, I love the word "behoove") to take notice. Especially when what is making these viewers unhappy is a major shift in the nature of the show. Because at its core this has always been a show about 2 brothers and now it appears to many of us to be a show about one brother and his silent, somewhat dimwitted younger brother- OK I'm exaggerating a little. And Kripke himself has acknowledged that they DO take into account fan gripes and favorites. I will try to find where I read that. I firmly believe that Cas would no longer be on this show except that TPTB fear the "inevitable blast wave" that would ensue if they killed him off. They don't know what to do with him and they keep him around because he is a fan favorite. I truly believe that. And that decision makes sense for them. If they do something that loses them a big chunk of viewers, it's bye bye SPN. In every season and many episodes there have been stories, scenes, characters that I wasn't thrilled with, but the good far outweighed the bad, and bottom line, I still had the brothers front and center, mostly equally involved in the plots and episodes. And there are still things I enjoy in many of the episodes. But the bottom line is that the very thing that totally captivated me about this show- that focus on both brothers- seems largely absent lately. While I am a Sam fan, I would be just as unhappy if Dean was being largely ignored or poorly/uncharac teristically written in most of the episodes. Because as I said, I'm all about the brothers. I am glad that you and your hubby are loving the show this year. There have been a small handful of episodes that I enjoyed very much. But to me the show currently seems very different than the show I fell in love with. As I said in my post, I think it's better to bitch about it but hang in there and hope our voices are heard. If the unhappy fans are large enough in number and simply give up on the show, there will be no more SPN. So you should be thrilled that we malcontents are continuing to watch while we kvetch. See, I've now convinced you that you should be GRATEFUL for our unhappy comments, right? I do enjoy your very enthusiastic reviews and I keep hoping it will be contagious, but apparently I have an awesome immune system. Whew, that went on for longer than I anticipated. Oops, one more point- my daughter is a Dean girl (but loves both brothers) and even she is not loving the show this year and last year.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-20 18:42
Phew, sorry, I am mostly tipsy toeing nowadays and that is why I am very cautious to apologize in advance if I say something that the other might take offence to and usually I don't want to get in involved these discussions for same reasons. Mostly because I know I have a very different view of the matter and that has not mostly end well for my part. Thank you for the nice reply. :)

And we fans are many sorts. I think you can't count with two hands how different fans there are for Dean, Sam etc. It is not flowers and rainbows trying to remain neutral in the middle and well defend everything and everyone on the show at the same time. I even like Sam's hair and I seem to be on minority of that... :D

I don't really try to infect my "happy thoughts" to other viewers than trying to talk anything and everything about the show. It is a fact that most of the time you can't really change how people feel nor what they think.

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 19:18
Lilah - You don't have to apologize for your opinions. You also shouldn't agonize over how you say something. It's exhausting!!! If someones going to take offense, they are going to take offense. The points you bring up are valid. When it comes to TPTB I think they hear but I don't think it matters all that much. Where I think they unfortunately did listen and got tired of it, was the constant hue and cry for Destiel to become canon. Yeah, Destiels got exactly what they wanted - not. Season 9 was so light on Dean and Cas it was a shame. I love seeing Jensen and Misha play off each other and I felt cheated of that I didn't get to see them together like before. How much of this was a direct result of the "voices being heard" - I dunno. But if THIS is an example of fan influence on the show? No thanks. I think Jensen even made a comment at a con regarding the lack of Dean/Cas was because the show just didn't want to deal with it or something similar to that. Anyway juzt wanted to say thanks for the posts you make, I always enjoy your comments!
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-20 19:35
Yeah, I wouldn't like to loose Cas either. The trio has good chemistry (and have fun on set) and by chemistry I mean I like TFW and how it works. I won't make guesses if the situation has affected or not nor use words from Jensen nor anyone else because I hate the witch hunt that some of them cause surrounding tumblr, twitter, news sites etc. All I can say that loosing anyone on TFW would make me very sad. I mean we lost Bobby already from it (I know he wasn't in the original TFW but he belonged to it) and that stung big time.

I have been way too chatty already and made long posts that is not like me. Maybe it is the weekend talking... :)

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 23:53
But it's nice chatting with you and I do understand your discretion.

Did you see the twitter post that Ruth (Rowena) posted about Jensens gummy bears? It's cute, if you haven't you should take a quick peek!

In about 5 seconds I'm seriously going to consider dropping the formalities of proper punctuation. It's annoying to type it on this small keypad. So if my posts start looking like a garbled mess no one can make out just remember it's not me, it's your reading comprehension!! !
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-21 06:42
I did, that was pretty sweet because of reasons. ;)

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 19:57
I agree that nobody should have to apologize in advance for their remarks, but I must say I'm trying extra hard to avoid any offense in my comments after the brouhaha that will not be named. But what I was wondering is if you remember when/where Jensen made that comment. I take it he didn't mean TPTB were minimizing Dean/Cas time out of spite, but rather to avoid any baiting accusations? I think that's kind of a different situation than the "where's Sam" issue, but it makes me wonder what social media gets their attention the most. That sound you hear is the gears slowly turning in my head as I puzzle out how I can catch their attention.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-20 20:13
Well, what seemed to have caused uproar was and image in twitter where he and Misha (not even Dean and Cas) saw a beautiful sunset and decided to take pictures from it. Both posted them on twitter. Anyway it seems that is not allowed because they got jumped because those two images and from different sides. That is the most resent.

This is the video. Jensen is also joking a little bit but he also sounds serious. It is a con clip:

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 22:23
Thanks Lilah. I don't know how everyone can find these videos so quickly. But it's very helpful!
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 00:22
All the brouhaha was so ridiculous. The Wincest people were upset because they felt Jensen was giving a shout out to the Destiels and I think the Destiels were upset (some) because they felt he was baiting them? The people that believe Jensen and Jared are together were upset that he would do that to Jared and on and on and on it went. It was a beautiful sunset with some really cool shots. Now why couldn't they all have just given it a rest? Poor Jensen is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't - no wonder he said he doesn't care if people judge him anymore
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 10:00
Wow, that isn't even the brouhaha I was referring to. When did all of this happen? I don't really go on other sites much because I know from my daughter that there is a fair amount of craziness/uglin ess. But holy crap! All that over a sunset?
# eilf 2015-03-21 10:56
Hi Samandean10. Regarding the picture; welcome to the SPN fandom, there are t-shirts...

Regarding the brouhaha (I believe that) you are talking about, and only since you mentioned it. None of that had anything to do with you at all! You are actually among the newest people at the moment and since you weren't being any more than very politely opinionated none of it was on you, you didn't do anything wrong. You really shouldn't allow yourself to be made responsible for any of it. You will find that sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, so don't borrow trouble ;)
I am trying to be as plain as possible here since there are sensitivities and no more than yourself I don't want it to set off again - it is basically 'don't mention the war' but I can't communicate with you any other way than on here.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 11:07
You make a good point. But did you at least like the Harry Potter reference?
# eilf 2015-03-21 12:06
You have lost me on the HP ref I am afraid :P
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 12:29
I guess I should've written "the brouhaha that MUST not be named" which refers to Voldemort. Maybe you're not a HP fan? Or maybe I should just slink away in embarrassment for my too obscure reference.:(
# eilf 2015-03-21 12:42
He, sorry, no, (huge HP fan). I just missed it :D
# eilf 2015-03-21 00:47
an image in twitter where he and Misha (not even Dean and Cas) saw a beautiful sunset and decided to take pictures from it.
Heh Lilah, you do know, don't you, that 'Cockles' has people who take it even more seriously than Destiel?

Jensen and Misha decided to do some muckstirring as a spur of the moment thing because they were bored and the sunset was pretty. The way the tweet is phrased makes that clear. "Just enjoying another manly moment on the set of #SupernaturaI" and Misha's response: " just one of many, many manly moments."
I am sure they both thought it was funny - and it was, if the whole thing wasn't so fraught, and hadn't been just about FINALLY put to rest after Ep 200. It was clearly intended to do exactly what it did to all 4 groups of RP and character shippers. Jensen has now made himself fair game for endless shipping questions (Misha has too, but Misha has no problem playing into this). Which is, for some of the people, why they were annoyed - Jensen makes out that he is bothered by the shipping questions, and then he plays into it.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-21 05:04
Or maybe they did it because it was a nice sunset and I don't know for fun? I don't search conspiracies where there aren't any in my opinion. My point was more that people jump to gun even if there is no reason to and that would mean all the actors would need to stop giving interviews, do anything in public and having fun is a big crime because people don't seem to get humor. I have seen this many times happen to stuff which is humor or should be regarded as such. And until I see the named duo saying clearly in a sentence they allow that I will see it the way I see it now.

I will see things also in "What if it was me" point of view. I am married and if I would decide to take same kind of a picture with my friend because of a lovely sunset, write a humor text to it and because of that I would get loads of inappropriate responses to a picture that were meant to be fun. I am not a celebrity but I have a mentality "Do to others like you would want others do to you" celebrity or no celebrity. So sorry, don't see it your way at all and yeah unlike Jensen and Misha I wouldn't be so gracious and I would block the people who would write those kind of answers to the pictures.

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 05:32
Amen. And all those various groups who are all so self righteously upset or offended, would be so whether the text was there or not. Then to get so wound up various persons (besides carrying on with the prerequisite renting of clothing and gnashing of teeth) had to threaten to disrupt Vegas Con...threaten to leave fandom forever because their disgust with Jensen was so great... I'm sure he'll miss you. Over a few pictures. People seriously need to get a life. There really is no excuse, I don't care who or what you ship. These people don't owe us anything. They probably recognized the potential ****storm it was most likely going to cause and said SCREW IT, we're going to post it anyway! OMG in Heaven, how dare they think for themselves. Those inconsiderate, lowlife , fandom teasing jerks!
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 05:36
And now Jensen has made himself FAIR GAME because of it. Overentitled fandom much?
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-21 06:50
Aly, you really should make yourself have login information/rea l username that I can just click on your newest comment to see it. :D

Oh, and Eilf as I didn't want to go only to that band wagon I put "different sides" because it is not only some people from the ship you mention that jumped them. And I think the C word is pretty horrid like Deanmon... heh :)

- Lilah
# eilf 2015-03-21 09:05
My goodness ladies the three of us agree on something! --> The over-entitledne ss of shippers... The world might end ;)
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-21 09:21
Heaven forbid! ;)

- Lilah
# sylvia37 2015-03-21 10:14
God, I was reading all of that brouhaha on Tumblr and all I could think was, seriously? This is what you've spent hundreds of dollars for? To harass one of the actors with ship questions because he posted a picture from BHTS for the FANS of the show. Some parts of this fandom make me crazy.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 11:10
What is BHTS?
# eilf 2015-03-21 12:09
behind the scenes
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 19:13
Preaching to the choir! You have to feel for the crap Jensen in particular has to put up with.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 00:11
All I remember is that it was from a con video but I have no idea which one. I couldn't even hazard a guess.

I did read somewhere on another board that during a meet and greet Jared said (and this isn't verbatim) that the reason for so many scenes where Sam is tied up (and also when he's unconcious?) is because even after he had cast/sling removed he still had to be careful with his arm so hopefully for all the Samgirls who weren't aware and just thought it lazy writing or Jared/Sam hate, this will help make them feel better? And no, I don't know what M&G either. I love when people can link sources so I can read for myself but I don't have anymore info to provide in either case.
# eilf 2015-03-21 01:33
I don't think anyone thinks that the writers hate either Sam or Jared. They think that the writers are not capable of thinking of more than one character at a time. They previously gave Jared some pretty good stuff to play with, it is Sam they are hopeless at writing for. It would be more complimentary to the writers to think that they were doing all this deliberately, they just haven't noticed, this is not a good reflection on them at all.
The Sam is knocked out / unconscious trope has been going on way longer than this season and it is only this season that Jared has had a bad arm.
I haven't seen nor heard of the M&G you mention, I would be interested in that too.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 05:49
Well it looks like Jared himself must not have had a problem with it prior to as he didn't reference past seasons only the present one, so in his mind he must think it has been an obvious recurring happenstance for Sam since he hurt himself IRL. So I can't believe my eyes when I read that Carver has it out for Jared, Car
# eilf 2015-03-21 09:08
Jared has mentioned a few times about Sam getting tied up an excessive amount. He used to talk about both brothers then just Sam as the statistics moved that way (There are statistics ....)
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 09:26
Hey what can I say? Not everybody can be as big as a BAMF as Dean is... ;)

When did the stats start leaning that way? Gambles or Carvers reign?
# eilf 2015-03-21 09:33
Except that Sam is, and was, and it is part of canon. So this is dumb. It is principally under Carver - who has been in charge for 2.5 canon ignoring seasons now. Jared hurt his arm in May.

Actually even under Carvers reign it has been mentioned:

Sam: Um...We need to think. Dean, what do we know of that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?

I don't know -- you?

Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 10:07
It isn't just that he's tied up a lot. It's that they have him looking so weak/inept as a fighter that he constantly needs his bacon saved by all and sundry- Dean, Charlie, Dean, Donna, Cas, Dean and on and on. He really was badass for many seasons. Apparently that year with Amelia sapped him of all his fighting skills.
# E 2015-03-21 10:31
I agree, Sam has been shown to be a BAMF many, many times over the years. He's a good tactician and a man with a lot of brute strength, he's also flexible and quick. And Jared can outrun Jensen (see season 1's Dead in the Water) and he can carry Jensen as well (See the outtake from Taxi Driver.. it's quite funny). Now though, we've seen both Sam and Dean take a hit and then Dean jumps right back up (this past episode) and Sam continue to flounder around on the floor, totally incapacitated. In About a Boy, Sam takes one hit from the witch and goes down, completely out of it, while teeny, tiny little teenage Dean who weighs about 112 pounds gets flung, punched, smashed up against a wall repeatedly by the 300lb Hansel and still manages to take him out all alone while Sam flops around on the floor. It's ridiculous.. (although that's AG, who has no trouble at all making Sam look ridiculous, and he does so repeatedly). The past 2.5 years have been the absolute worst when it comes to this, but Sam has been knocked out roughly 3 times more than Dean during the course of the series. And there ARE statistics…. yes, someone actually counted.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 11:18
I almost can't type this because I'm laughing really hard at this part:

In About a Boy, Sam takes one hit from the witch and goes down, completely out of it, while teeny, tiny little teenage Dean who weighs about 112 pounds gets flung, punched, smashed up against a wall repeatedly by the 300lb Hansel and still manages to take him out all alone while Sam flops around on the floor.

(Darn it, I still can't figure out how to quote things from other posts) I especially love the alliteration of "teeny, tiny teenage Dean." Keep 'em coming E. I usually get at least one good, long laugh out of your comments.
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 10:27
In S8 Jared broke his rib part way through the season. I remember reading an interview where Jared said he really couldn't do very many action scenes because of the injury but that it kind of fit in with the trial illness. I think Jared is hurt a lot. So that could be the reason at least in the last few years he hasn't been as much of an action star. S9 is kind of a blur but I can't remember Sam being tied up or knocked out as many times as he has this season. Even after Jared got his arm out of the sling he couldn't do fight scenes for a long time. In order for Sam to be in the scene at all and not look stupid for just standing around doing nothing they had to knock him out or tie him up. I'm sure it was frustrating for Jared as well as the fans.
# eilf 2015-03-20 20:14
I have to tell you I love "I keep hoping it will be contagious, but apparently I have an awesome immune system" that is the best quote today!

I also (and this is not a reflection on you at all Lilah, just I agree with SamanDean in general on this) love "[other commenters] should be thrilled that we malcontents are continuing to watch while we kvetch" - it is true but getting less so I fear. Just imagine what the ratings would be like if they were writing to include the unhappy 50% of the viewers! (in an unconnected point 83.5 % of statistics are made up on the spot).
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-20 20:40
It's all right but you actually found my weak spot. I don't understand ratings. Like at all or how they work. But yeah, of course I would wish Supernatural have as much viewers as possible and it and the actors have gotten lower credit than they should have had in the long run. Hopefully things will get better on the view point you and others have but for some nothing is enough. And those come from different sides and shapes. And for them there is nothing they can do. I know I am lucky on how I watch the show or in some cases unlucky too.

My hope is for a new monster that steals souls or something and there is no blood nor any kind of worms needed. Like ever. :D

- Lilah
# eilf 2015-03-20 22:04
My upstairs neighbours are throwing furniture - I might call the cops on 'em .... ok where was I .... for Supernatural, at this stage, ratings are just a way of keeping score. TV shows need a minimum of 100 episodes so that they can be sold into syndication and 200 is even better, it means that SPN is basically paying for itself (I think - Alice knows all this stuff way better than I do) and then some.

Their ratings would have to totally bottom out before it would get cancelled at this stage, they may have moved it once too often possibly, but the viewers have always followed the show before, they may have just not realised this time that it moved mid-season, and the other thing that messed with the ratings was a new show having its finale at the same time.

At this stage they (the people planning the seasons) could either be doing imaginative stuff, or real intense story stuff, or writing for the characters instead of playing with tropes, or filling in holes in the storylines, or tying up threads, or they could just be waiting out the clock. They seem to be going with the last one. It is a terrible shame. And I don't at all agree with other people's idea that it is the writers' 'sandbox'. Season 1-3 of a show is the creators sandbox - they mess around with it to see what works (if they get enough time to do so). They put creative thinking into it, and when the formula stops working, they come up with a new formula if necessary. But to get rid of a formula that was working just fine and doing ... whatever it is they think they are doing now .... makes zero sense, I would like one of them to explain it to me.

A show with (potentially) as intricate and enormous a history and 'bible' as Supernatural is, and has, shouldn't be full of holes like it is now. This is why any spin-off is never going to work - the entire universe is being held together by J2s charisma and loyalty - and the loyalty of a good few other people running the show in Vancouver, and the hard-core (kvetching) viewers (and a few happy ones too).
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 00:26
Not even the cute as a button Teen Khan Worm Part Deux??? How heartless are you woman?!?
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-21 05:06
*Squahes the teen Khan worm while repeating ewewewwwww* :D

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 05:51
Define "squashes"
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-21 06:53
With a boot! I am not touching that thing. :D

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-22 10:46
Yeah, a broom wouldn't be very effective. But you'd have to think twice cause you are going to have to clean that mess off your footwear. Maybe Raid? Of course you would need industrial strength and who keeps that just lying around in their house... You could cover it with a cup or pan, capturing it and then just throw it outside like I do any creepy crawlies that invade my space... but that wouldn't work because it is a Teenage Khan Worm and they never want to leave home so it would just turn right back around and be back on your doorstep before you knew it...Nah, boot it is!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 22:27
You know what they say: figures don't lie, but liars figure. Not that I'm saying you're lying eilf. In fact I'd say you're grossly underestimating the unhappy. I'd peg it at 85% and my momma didn't raise no liar!;)
# eilf 2015-03-20 23:12
Your momma done good. I would never make up statistics! How dare you (not at all except you were) insinuate that I would! ;)
# anonymousN 2015-03-20 18:06
that means for example you want the criticism of Sam etc to be heard by the writers, but that would mean they should also listen to those that want Sam off the show.
This frankly does not make any sense.The jump of wanting a criticism to be heard not accepted just heard and wanting a character off the show does not reflect on one another.If a poistive criticism is made so will there be people who make negative ones.There are people aho say that without Sam the show will go on but there never have been fans who have said the same to DeanQuote:
What I want and would ask them to change is not more important than someone else that would ask just the opposite.
Who has said this?Quote:
And we would end up on a black screen and nothing to see.
Again this does not make sense so we wanting something automatically means there will be blank screens because the writers are at our beck and call? yeah ok whatever.Quote:
But is it right to the show? That is the main question.
Who decides this.The positive pollys or the debbie downers or is it the writers.We comment here ,this is a place made to comment,to gush,to vent ,to voice our concers our praise our criticisms our joy.there will be both .so this oh the negative comments just seems pointless (not just you)Quote:
These are extremist samples and not my opinions at all so don't bite my head off.
will comments disagreeing with you may be seen as biting your head off?Quote:
I mean I like one brother better than the other, but I also like the other one,
I like Sam I wish I liked dean as much as I liked him in the first five seasons.Quote:
Otherwise it was just hunting. I really don't see the handling much more different than then.
here you dicount one major fact while making this statement .that is that was season 1 the season which had to establish the tone of the show..what it actually was.Now it does not have to do that.Quote:
He also really hates Rowena.
This is the only thing I agree with.
# anonymousN 2015-03-20 18:11
The trouble is and I think most know that even Kripke got a lot of criticism in his time.
I do not find anything wrong in this.
# anonymousN 2015-03-20 18:11
repeated comment
# paladinteacher 2015-03-21 17:59
Hey, Farscape reference! I looooooove Farscape! It was actually the show that got me to check out fan sites and online reviews. I spent a whole summer reading reviews and looking for news while fans tried to rescue the show from its uncerimonius cancellation. My personal nerdvana would be for Ben Browder to guest on Supernatural. (He did a guest appearance on Arrow.) Are you new to the show or doing a rewatch?

Sorry, I know that this is totally off the topic of Supernatural.;)
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-21 19:39
I have watched Farscape long ago for the first time but I missed a lot of episodes and then Netflix came and I finally could watch all the episodes in a row.
BTW, I got really ticked of the last episode. I mean really? End like that and in the big words of "To be continued" and they canceled it. I mean what the heck... I remember there is a tv movie or something to end it in a better way but if the same would happen to Supernatural I swear I would probably send a bomb to whoever was responsible. :D

And yeah. few days ago I finished it. :)

- Lilah
# eilf 2015-03-20 20:44
And eilf, I like the idea that Jared knows of the Sam/brother fans who love his character and his acting and want to see more of it. One reason I love this site is because I had seen some ugly anti-Sam and anti-Jared comments in many other forums and that is not the case with this site.
Me too, supporting the guy is the main reason I am hanging on at this stage. I never in my life saw someone be so sort of 'ok this is me, no bull, I want to like you, talk to me' on an ongoing basis and have it so completely thrown in his face so often.

For example one time on twitter someone had made a pretty nice SPN poster with all the episode titles on it. Jared saw it and in a tweet went 'oh! that's gorgeous, I want one!' The girls response was 'well I will tell you where you can buy it'. I mean he wasn't actually asking for one, but what an ungracious response, to a guy who has just given you nearly 2 million people worth of advertising, go back into her tweets, it is pretty clear what her affiliation was, and how pleased she would have been to snub him (and how much Jensen and Misha wouldn't have appreciated her snubbing him). Like it was worth it to her to snub him. Fandom has some pretty mean people - they are really mean to Misha too, and to Jensen over specific things (all of which are unfair and unreasonable), but Jensen is lucky enough to not get this continuous general low-grade nastiness. I really don't understand it. Jared is entirely aware of it too - the actor who plays Garth mentioned it one time.

Ack, it brings out the protective Momma in me (even though I am not actually old enough to be his Momma).
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 22:58
I feel like a teenage girl because I've spent way too much time today asking posters "who said that" and "where did you read that." But I can't help it, I have to ask when did DJ Qualls say that? It makes me really sad for Jared. Has there been this anti-Jared contingent right from the start? I just cannot account for it. What is the basis for most of this hostility?
# eilf 2015-03-21 00:22
Well it is too too dodgy a topic to comment on the hassle Jared got in the first three seasons. Also I wasn't watching the show back then. But as far as I am aware he has been getting it since very early on. I did see a con in England from a REALLY early season where a fan asked Jensen (while Jared was standing right there) whether he would consider doing the show alone? Jensen's response was along the lines of 'Jared is standing right here! Can't you see him? No I wouldn't'
Since season 4, the season that gave us Castiel, ... well the reason for that is also too dangerous to comment on (and too 'you gotta want to see it' also) :P Twitter keeps an eye on this site you know ...
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 02:19
What is the basis for most of this hostility?
I think because he got to play the character of Sam and his name appearing first.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 10:20
Have people really griped about his name coming first? I was under the impression that his name is first because he was more well known than Jensen when the show began.
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 10:47
yes.they did.I only noticed this after i read about this.I thought out of the two major characters Jared comes first alphabetically ,but then I did not try to find whether this was the reason.So my thinking maybe wrong.
The comments on internet about Jared were horrible.
# E 2015-03-21 12:38
Jared was hired first so I thought it was because of that….?

The people who react to that kind of thing are either 14 years old or have a 14 year olds mentality. They are best ignored. Before twitter, tumbler, Facebook, they would have been doing all of their hysterical screeching to each other at home in private and the rest of us wouldn't be subjected to it, and the actor's wouldn't either.
# lala2 2015-03-21 00:02
What did DJ Qualls say? I've heard about all kinds of nasty things people have said to Jared, and it always makes me feel sad for him b/c he seems sensitive and very aware of criticism. And knowing what we now know about him, that makes it even sadder! Poor guy!
# eilf 2015-03-21 00:23
DJ Qualls mentioned at a convention that he had been upset at some really nasty commentary some half-wit on Twitter was giving him over his appearance. He mentioned it to Jared and Jared told him not to take it to heart and showed him a selection of twitter feeds that are just dedicating to hating him personally.

Not that I spend my entire life on Youtube watching these videos ... nope ... (seen em all now so i have run out)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 10:18
Did you ever see those "mean tweet" segments on Jimmy Kimmel? They have the celebrities reading the mean tweets they've received about themselves, and mostly they're laughing as they read them because they're so mean and out there that it's funny. And it's not surprising (but also not excusable) that certain celebrities are disliked- some of them almost seem to court it. But Jared has always seemed like this big, friendly, sweet puppy. It must really hurt to read the nasty comments because he has to be wondering what he ever did to deserve it. God, do I hope he also gets lots of love from his fans. I wish he would come to this site to see how passionate the Sam/Jared/broth er fans are.
# sylvia37 2015-03-21 10:23
It's a good thing that those of us who love Sam (and Jared) try to make up for all of that nastiness in spades. I participated in a fan letter writing campaign that was being given to him at one of the cons by someone on Tumblr. She go ALOT of responses and gave him a book full of love from us.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 11:22
That is fantastic. You submitted them online and then she typed them up?
# sylvia37 2015-03-21 12:15
Yes. We uploaded our letters to her Tumbler and she put them all in a scrap book for him. She gave us some guidelines, like maximum word amounts and things, but it was just fan letters to Jared to show how much we love and appreciate him and Sam.
# E 2015-03-21 12:40
maybe we should do something similar about Sam's story line.. indicate how much we'd like him to have one, our suggestions for one and then send it to the writers; I mean they seem incapable of coming up with something on their own, maybe we could give them a hand. ;)
# lala2 2015-03-21 14:41
Bullies have always fascinated me in way. If I don't like someone, I don't spend time on their social media sites bugging them just like I didn't bother people I didn't like in elementary school and HS. I find it so odd that others do that. Those people must have no life to waste time making Twitter accounts to hate on an actor! Why not spend their time loving the actors they love?

A soap actor I like had a great comment on his Instagram. Someone must have commented that they were "un-following him," and he said, "Telling me you're un-following me is like a stranger coming up to you at a party and saying, 'I'm leaving.' " Haha! I thought that was a great analogy. I'm just glad Jared is not taking that crap to heart anymore as it could be very depressing for him.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 16:32
But that's because you're a mature, nice person. In the pre-internet days, people who were bullies in elementary and HS didn't have the same forum for bullying people once they were out in the real world. If they wanted jobs and the ability to function in society they had to restrain their bully instincts. Now, however, they can unleash their worst tendencies and bully people anonymously all day long online. Often I'll start reading the comments to a news article online and I usually have to quickly stop because the trolls are out in force with their ugliness. It could be a happy, moving article about some person doing a great, worthy thing, and even then the comments will deteriorate into vicious remarks. It's downright depressing.
# eilf 2015-03-21 01:08
my cloned post has stopped being a clone now but I have forgotten what I was going to say so .... please ignore this.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 08:45
It is their creative sandbox.
# anonymousN 2015-03-20 07:34
people could just move on from it, or accept it for the way it is.
or they can criticize the show for its lacking aspects and still watch it or like me can visit this site hoping to hear something promising to take up the show or there are many kinds of people.I am not happy with the show other people are.That is just how it is.I have accepted it.
# njspnfan 2015-03-20 07:42
By Season 10 standards, I gave this a B/B-; it was a good MOTW episode and it was a nice change from the usual vampire/werewol f/shapeshifter monsters. Seemed odd that Dean was showing no ill effects from his confrontation with Cain; the characterizatio n of MoC Dean has made about much sense as Season 7's broken-wall Sam; we get one visual clue when something is wrong; Broken-wall Sam used to grab his hand, MoC Dean grabs his forearm. However, in all fairness, Broken-wall Sam used to also do the frightened stare in to space to mix things up. Ahhhh.... those were the days.

As far as Sam going darkside to save Dean, sure, why not. Sam has been stripped of just about any recognizable traits and is a blank slate at this point. However, I would be surprised if both the brothers went darkside but, then again, it would give Dean a justifiable reason for killing Sam. I will throw one possibility out there - in one of last season's Threads articles by Nightsky, I had speculated that maybe Dean was not the target of Crowley's plans, what it it were Sam, or Sam and Dean, having them both go dark?
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 08:59
No ill effects from the Cain confrontation, you say? Well do take in to consideration Dean did sleep for four days... Ha!

That's the first time I've ever heard of the idea of Crowley wanting both to go darkside. Interesting. Also interesting is the idea of them both going seriously dark without Crowleys influence by seasons end.

You know what I would like to see is one damn episode written without all these damned anvils! I swear the writers probably have some kind of ongoing bet or office pool as to who can cram the highest number into their episode. I can just picture them all giving themselves pats on the backs for their self proclaimed creative genius! Or if we can't have an episode without, then how about we limit them to a reasonable number? I swear there are times when you almost feel like you are mentally dodging them left and right! We're not a stupid fandom, they aren't always necessary. Im surprised we dont see a flashing arrow on screen pointing them out when they appear lest the writers think we might overlook one! I jest. Kinda.
# percysowner 2015-03-20 12:44
I do like the idea that Crowley's point was to get to Sam or both Sam and Dean. At least it would have Sam's blood being what was used to cure Crowley as somewhat relevant as opposed to Crowley deciding that Dean is the Winchester he's interested in now. At least it would be different.
# E 2015-03-20 15:10
I've made the same comment several times. I'd love to learn that Crowley was at least in part trying to get back at Sam by taking Dean from him in retaliation for Sam forcing the demon cure on him in season 8. That would be awesome and a great tie-in to earlier canon and at least ONE thing that Sam has done that shows that he's still relevant. Still, if that is the way they've gone, they've done a piss poor job of it. In order to lay the ground work of a conspiracy you need to indicate in some way that there is a conspiracy at work… and they haven't. Crowley has become all but irrelevant in season 10; to suddenly go back to him now and say "look, he's been working on this all along only you didn't know it!" is poor plotting. I mean, it can't come seemingly out of the blue like that or it looses all of its punch. Id' love to think Crowley has been plotting, and using his mother as much as she's been using him, to get back at the Winchesters, but I'd like to have seen some evidence of that before now.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 13:09
Yes, remember in Blade Runners when Crowley seemed to be desperately trying to befriend Sam? I thought that related to Sam's blood being used to cure him and I thought they would follow up on that angle. But nope, when next we see Crowley it's about trying to ensnare Dean and ultimately turn him into his demon bestie. The Sam/Crowley connection was another thing that the writers teased and then totally dropped.
# E 2015-03-22 00:02
Yes, along with why Sam didn't look for Dean, and what ultimately happened with Sam's demon blood, and the angel grace thing… good ideas all, but requiring a writer who might be interested in fleshing it out. But no, the lions share of writers are too interested in doing nothing interesting at all with Dean, which is why we get no Sam and a microscopic look at Dean doing nothing.
# spnlit 2015-03-20 16:16
I enjoyed this episode for the full watch. It was a dark, creepy, interesting MOTW episode and it gave Cole, a likable character some closure on his father's death and further understanding of hunters/ monsters. The criticism I do have is the lack of continuation of the devastation Dean seemed to experience by his encounter with and killing of Cain in the last ep -Executioner's Song (the masterpiece). I agree it did seem odd that Dean was showing no ill effects from his confrontation with Cain. Sam was convinced and so was I that Dean was not okay; that he crossed a line of mental, perhaps human debilitation. It also seemed like we took some giant step backwards that lacked credibility for Dean to be just accepting his fate and Sam remaining silent and hiding his internet research.
I think Crowley's original plan was to have an evil playmate/ right hand man in Dean but with recent events (Dean not returning the blade and the advent of Mommy Dearest) he may now turn and twist his sights to destroying Dean and Sam.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-03-20 19:09
I don't know... both going darkside? Not my cup of tea. It doesn't seem balanced. One goes evil whilst the other struggles emotionally. Our emotions are in constant flux, keeping us interested, excited and feeling sorry for the one brother. If both went darkside it would feel empty I guess. You'd be excited yes, but that would grow stale as there's no change to the flow. Am I making sense? Its a bit tough putting it into words.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-20 08:52
Actually, at the Fangasm:

There is bits and pieces of Jensen's and Jared's meet and greet. Very mild teasing spoiler. Anyway, if you like to check it out. There was nice questions and answers. Anyway, it is the boys mindstate about season 10.

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-20 09:06
Thanks LK. jumping over to check it out right now!
# E 2015-03-20 14:17
The thing that is bothering me the most about some of the groundwork that TPTB seem to be laying is that somehow Sam might end up killing Dean when he goes "dark side" or whatever. But in season 9 Carver himself clearly indicated that death only makes Dean a demon. They themselves set it up this way. If somehow Sam finds a way to "kill" Dean I am going to be seriously pissed off. I know canon means next to nothing to these writers, but can't they even manage to follow their own recent canon? I've said this before and I'll say it again. I don't want to see Dean kill Sam and I don't want to see Sam kill Dean because I think it would permanently destroy the equilibrium between the brothers and create a scenario in which the offending brother could probably never recover. And the way things are currently being written, if Sam kills Dean his character will be destroyed for all eternity. So many fans hate Sam enough already without that kind of blow to him. And since the writers can't be bothered to show Sam's side of things, what would the repercussions be? Dean revived and criticizing Sam for all eternity for killing him and absolutely nothing from Sam on what the toll on him was? Yeah.. that's about the way this would go.
# percysowner 2015-03-20 14:43
I think Dean's character could survive killing Sam. We have been given an incredibly sympathetic look at why Dean took the Mark and it has been made clear that it's the Mark not Dean when he goes off. I agree Sam killing Dean can't be walked back from. We have so little emotional context for Sam that it would end up being mean Sam who didn't try hard enough to save Dean and only did dark things because he wanted to kill Dean and he's arrogant. I suppose they could have it go like when Sam stabbed Cas or when they shot Lucifer with the Colt i.e. it just doesn't work so the audience doesn't have the emotional ramifications. But if Sam kills Dean, the character is going to be impossible to rehabilitate for most fans.
# E 2015-03-20 15:23
I agree, I think that Dean could maybe recover from killing Sam better than the other way around. I've seen plenty of comments already stating that if Dean killed Sam it would be "for his own good" and that Dean would have "no choice." I find it odd that an otherwise normal essentially moral and law abiding person could justify murder in such a way, even for a fictional character, but there we have it. If Sam killed Dean, he would be crucified; those that merely tolerate Sam would be so put off by that that they'd become Sam haters, and those that already hate Sam? Well… who knows what they'd do. But, since Jared was fairly vocal about Sam being unhelpful to Dean in season 10, I don't think he'd go for it honestly… or at least I hope he wouldn't.

I had a thought about how I'd like to see this go: I'd like to see Sam find a loop hole in the whole MoC/First Blade thing. Maybe Sam finds out, through witchcraft or through a seance or through Metatron that if the blade is satisfied while the Mark is denied that the curse can be broken? The Blade wants brothers blood and the Mark needs a brother's death. So maybe the curse can be broken if Sam takes his own life with the blade. That way the blade gets brother's blood, but the Mark is denied the brother's kill thus breaking the curse. Cain could't break the curse because he'd killed his brother with the blade. But Sam is still alive, so maybe he can save Dean in this way. I think its a great solution to what is going on… allows Sam a win (that he deserves), shows Dean that Sam is indeed willing to go to the ends of the earth for him (although why Dean needs that kind of confirmation is BEYOND me) and makes it so that neither brother has to kill the other. What do you think?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 15:57
I LOVE your idea but I see one problem. You need the mark for the blade to work. So unless Dean is unconscious or restrained and Sam puts the blade in Dean's hand and uses his own hand to guide it into killing Sam, I don't see how it would work. Actually I like the idea of Sam compelling a restrained Dean to do it. Sam makes the ultimate sacrifice to save Dean- very appealing. And Dean would have done it against his will, so it's not really fratricide. But how would they bring Sam back? Unless it comes back to the veil issue. Either your idea or the witchcraft idea presents very intriguing possibilities.
# E 2015-03-20 16:30
So unless Dean is unconscious or restrained and Sam puts the blade in Dean's hand and uses his own hand to guide it into killing Sam, I don't see how it would work. Actually I like the idea of Sam compelling a restrained Dean to do it. Sam makes the ultimate sacrifice to save Dean- very appealing.
Absolutely. They confront one another, Dean fights off the killing urge, goes to lower the weapon (you know, because it's Sam, he succeeds in succeeding where Cain fails) and then Sam grabs his arm and kills himself! Oh… the angst, the horror! It would be exquisite. And of course this is after Sam has set up the spell or trials or whatever that allows him to break the curse of the MoC by satisfying the blade's blood lust and denying the mark of fratricide. Oooo, could the writers possible come up with the same scenario? It would be all kinds of awesome. And Sam has never been dead over a hiatus, and Dean has been twice. So that would be nice too.

Geez, when did we go from dreading one of the boys death to remarking on whose turn it was? :P
# percysowner 2015-03-20 16:52
I like this.
# sylvia37 2015-03-20 16:59
That's a pretty awesome scenario. I would love to see Sam making the ultimate sacrifice like that. And I have no idea when I decided it was okay for Sam to die just to prove himself. Geez, this show is really skewing my morals. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 18:09
Sign me up too. I LOVE, LOVE it. Unless of course they decide to leave Sam dead/in the veil. That would make it much easier to exclude him from every episode. Unless there's a whole Sam-in-the-veil arc where he teams up with Kevin to .... hmm, let me think about it and get back to you. Also, I don't know how you do the quote thing, but I really liked "And Sam has never been dead over a hiatus and Dean has been twice." That made me laugh. Also, Dean is winning the "who's died more competition" so it's Sam's turn to bite the dust.
# njspnfan 2015-03-20 17:23
You need the mark for the blade to work
That's Season 9 canon. New season, new rules :D:D:D:D:D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-20 18:10
Sad, but true.
# lala2 2015-03-21 00:07
I agree. Dean could definitely survive killing Sam. Sam, however, would not survive (in the fandom) killing Dean.
# spnlit 2015-03-20 18:43
I agree 100% I would never accept one brother killing the other under any circumstances. It would destroy the premise of the show and the characters.
# E 2015-03-21 10:35
Actually, wasn't the premise of the show that one day Dean would have to kill Sam? John thought so, Sam thought so too…. that was an assumption for the first five seasons. And Dean did contemplate it on several occasions, when Sam was detoxing then again while Sam was Soulless.
# sylvia37 2015-03-21 12:20
Actually, I think Kripke's original thoughts for the show was that Sam would eventually go darkside and there would be a showdown between the brother's where Dean would have to kill him. I don't remember where I read that. I assume he changed his mind about Sam going completely dark over the course of the five years. I don't know.
# JuliaG 2015-03-20 20:01
Couldn't Dean be killed with the Blade though, the one he gave to Cas?
# percysowner 2015-03-20 20:12
Except the big point last year, when they got the blade to kill Abaddon was that the Blade won't work without the Mark and the Mark brings the person who wears it back as a demon.
# E 2015-03-21 10:36
Only if the person killing him also had the Mark.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-03-20 17:24
Oh yes yes yes! I agree with your intuition that Sam may go darkside. It feels so obvious with the hints dotted in the episode, and similar in how Sam's behavior is becoming to past seasons. You spoke about how Sam went off the rails with Ruby but remember Mystery spot? After Dean died for the last time in that episode Sam went noticeably cold and ruthless. I can't recall it too well but I found it darker than his journey without Ruby after Dean's S3 finale death.

The Khan worm! My favourite monster. I'm glad electrocution didn't work and as you said had to figure out how to kill it on the spot.

When you mention why is Sam still going online and not some secret library I think he's very close to doing the latter. As you said he's desperate that he's still pouring over information they've exhausted. He's close to breaking into unhealthy obsession I reckon, and his clarity will become swiftly clouded as he goes down a dark path.

Oh my gosh I totally forgot about the original S3 Sam plot line. He was supposed to go dark side and pull Dean out of hell right? Yes! I can see more than ever this could happen! By that I mean going darkside.

So please dear writers of SPN, hear my plea! Let Sam go dark side and even have his powers return. None of this drinking demon blood. Let him loose himself to the siren calls of his demon side and make him a surprise villain! Well okay, just for a few episodes like Demon Dean was. I know a lot of fans wouldn't like a pure evil Sam for long. Though I sure do. The purer the character the more exciting and interesting his fall is. But more emotional as they return to their good side.
# eilf 2015-03-20 23:40
Here's an interesting thought I just saw on Tumblr. I don't know what it might mean any more than they do though:
At the beginning of the season Dean tried to kill Sam with a hammer. Sam was going to just stand there and let him rather than kill his brother, even though his brother was a demon at the time. Sam got away, cured Dean, who didn't make, and still hasn't really made, any attempt to make up to him for any of it. And then Sam went out and bought food for Dean.
At the beginning of the season Cole came very close to kneecapping Sam - and threatened to kill him - with a hammer. Sam refused to help Cole capture his brother - even though he was a demon at the time - and was going to let him do it. Sam got away. We have seen Cole a couple of times since, and Cole has made no effort to make amends with Sam - and Sam went out and brought food for Cole as well.


Sam is awesome and more forgiving than anyone in the universe?

Stockholm Syndrome? (that was Travis's take on that story, but honestly I think it was a guest actor looking at his particular story arc, saying 'well it makes no freaking sense for him to just ignore what my character did, I am going to have to invent something to make it work ... um Stockholm Syndrome' - Jared made what seemed like a a rather jaundiced reference to that theory in a tweet)

The writers don't know who Sam is and what he can do?

Anyone have any theory on why they used such similar scenarios? Because it appears to imply that whatever the situation is with Sam and Cole is the same as with Sam and Dean.
# E 2015-03-21 00:00
Huh… interesting. I'd love to think that TPTB are attempting to show some kind of subtext somewhere that will later mean something. That used to be a huge part of how Supernatural worked with these juicy little tid-bits and seemingly random moment interwoven in interesting ways into the fabric of the overall story. Still, that would mean that Carver has some kind of well-thought out plan in mind and that he's in the process of executing that plan… and I just can't believe that. He's said on multiple occasions that he often throws things at the wall to see "what sticks." He's not that good at overall long term story construction, or long term story reveals or at pacing. I guess we can hope.

And what do you mean that Jared gave a "jaundiced" reference? What did he say?
# eilf 2015-03-21 01:48
Well I guess can't say that it WAS jaundiced, he just wangled it into a series of tweets randomly, as randomly as Travis coming up with the theory in the first place?

Uh-oh.... @TravisAaronWad e waiting outside for us?... Can't be good :) #SupernaturaI
@jarpad but you and @JensenAckles are so handsome
@TravisAaronWad e @JensenAckles haha. That's just the Stockholm Syndrome talkin! #SupernaturaI

I can't imagine that Jared is too impressed really with the theory. Especially as we all know damn well that the writers didn't think about it at all, never mind do something subtle, that will have a callback (like I am asking about in my original point, but in reality I know that those similarities also very likely mean nothing). But the Stockholm thing will just be left with this really disturbing thought, that comes across as just a weakness in Sam. In a show that is more and more coming down on the side of 'might is right' and is less and less about nuance and character depth.
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 03:57
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 06:03
Yeah, I don't know what to even say to that either...
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-21 07:06
The boys were tweeting back and forth jokingly and humorously... At least I read it like that. And again it is just them having fun while tweeting?
Travis were actually while they were filming watching a ball game with J2 as he posted picture about that.

Maybe you know... They are just being guys and acting like it. Pulling each others leg so to speak? :P

I don't know... Maybe my big brother influence is a disturbance in the force...

- Lilah
# eilf 2015-03-21 12:58
I am not saying they weren't joking Lilah, I actually am well aware of the difference between the characters and the actors. And the difference between a joke on Twitter and a real referene on the show. I am just saying that it was an odd thing to mention. For both Jared and Travis. Everything about it is odd, including the idea of having one episode where one character finally gives Sam a PTSD response that he has never had before no matter how badly treated he was. And it is not a typical concept for THIS show. Where the guys are made of india rubber and bounce back from all injuries with a quip.

Nightsky would call it a thread ...
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 10:41
I found travis's interpretation sickening.
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 12:19
Here are the tweets from Jared's twitter acct. Jared made the Stockholm comment to Jensen and Travis teasing them about the electrocution scene.
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 16:26
Cheryl I do not know whether the twitter comments were a reaction to the interview or the other way around.But I read the interview first.
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 17:28
The interview was sometime before the episode. Jared's tweets were during the episode. He and Travis were tweeting at each other. I don't know if that makes a difference.
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 04:59
I just like to know how the events occured.Whether travis or jared were the originator of the idea is another reason.
# eilf 2015-03-21 12:21
Cheryl AnonN isn't referring to the tweets - the reference is to an article interview with Travis.
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 14:59
Oh sorry. I thought it was Jared's comment.
Ok I just read the article. It sounded to me like that was how he as a military person survived his experience so he used it to interpret his relationship with Sam for the role. It seemed like Jared was having some fun with it while he was live tweeting.
# eilf 2015-03-21 12:26
# eilf 2015-03-21 12:26
Me too. I wonder though, why did they include the beating and torture of Sam in the 'then' when Cole only felt the need to apologise for nearly taking (demon)Dean out of the equation? In an episode about how if you are a monster you need to be put down but friends and family are to be protected at all costs?

Honestly I feel that that would be a fair question for a convention if anyone felt like asking.

I would have written that episode with Sam in the hot room with Cole, and Dean unable to save a monster - it would have matched their personalities way more correctly, and the storyline for the season too - to the extent that I found myself watching the episode as if Sam and Dean have done a body-swap and that is Sam talking someone down, curing them, fighting them to a standstill and Dean making the harder choice of saving a woman by shooting the monster. Also putting Sam in charge of Cole's wellbeing and not taking advantage of it, it would have been infinitely more intense! Talk about a wasted opportunity! Dean has no beef with Cole at all, so it was just 'the job' for him. And it hadn't really anything to do with Jared's shoulder - they could have stunted in that scene, it was short enough.

It was odd, but if you watch it that way then at the end SAM has hope that a monster can be saved (and everyone gets closure from not only the start of the season but to the flashback at the START of the episode!) and Dean feels that the monster he is becoming can not, giving him more reason to do all this 'you can't save me Sam, I am going to fight it as long as I can (and then kill you.)

And damn but the 'Sammy' references were visible.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 13:22
While I like your version of the episode, since it makes sense in the context of what Sam and Dean are each dealing with now (and dammit Sam should have gotten to electrocute Cole as payback for the torture), I thought that they wrote the scene with Dean saving Cole and Sam failing to save Kit to set up the "desperate Sam" scenario, since now he will presumably do something shady to save Dean. But the version the writer went with requires us to accept that Sam was so distraught about not being able to save Kit, who he didn't know from Adam!, that he now realizes he must save Dean at all costs. As though Sam wasn't ALREADY determined to save Dean by any means necessary.
# eilf 2015-03-21 13:44
Yes it wasn't that I was trying to turn the episode around I was just listening to the script and thinking 'this character would say that to THIS character, why bother with telling that one?'

I am getting sort of interested in the Stockholm thing now that I have looked it up. I mean it doesn't really make sense between Sam and Cole because it is a long term gradual thing. And it also doesn't inherently involve torture. Look it up yourself and see how else it could be applied to the show? Specifically to season 9, I better not say anything else on the subject ...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 16:47
I'm actually somewhat familiar with it because I used to work in the Crim Justice system so I've always been fascinated by all things criminal. Clearly Travis isn't that knowledgeable because the syndrome would never result from a brief kidnapping in which the victim was brutally tortured. I assume Travis said it because he too is puzzled by Sam's magnanimity in pretending it never happened and treating Cole so nicely. After only being on the show a handful of times Travis already perceives the writing deficiencies. But, like a typically loyal SPN cast member, he tries to frame it in a positive way. I have to admit, though, I'm not entirely sure where you're going with you're last remark, though I have my suspicions.
# njspnfan 2015-03-21 14:06
The actor's interpretation of capture-bonding or Stockholm Syndrome is just plain wrong.
# eilf 2015-03-21 14:27
well if there is anything to it I suppose we will find out. Unless they change their minds. Again.
# MK 2015-03-22 08:07
While the tweets might have just been a bit of banter between the two actors, I think there is a lot of merit in the Stockholm Syndrome idea as relates to Sam, and not just with Cole but also with other characters. Sam has always shown empathy and sympathy towards those who have done him wrong. For example, he worked with Meg after Meg possessed him, he reached out to help Castiel after Castiel shattered the wall in his head, he empathized with John, he called Gadreel a friend, all he does is forgive and forget when Dean's actions or words hurt him or worse. While a lot of this might just be that Sam is that good of a person (or that unrealistically written), I think a lot of it is due to his crippling self worth (how can you have self worth when no one has ever had worth in you as an individual?) but also I think it's because Sam has never known any better. He has been a hunter pretty much his whole life when the expectation is that you put other peoples needs before your own. Sam was berated for wanting out of that life (and that is something that was introduced in season 1 and revisited in season 8). He is expected to get 'support' from a very small number of people, and that is hard when (a) that 'support' is anything but supportive and (b) it is often those people who are the ones hurting him. Even with Dean, despite his constant declarations of support and love etc for his brother, is usually anything but supportive and more often than not does him more harm than anything else. Sam is a pawn for Dean to get Dean what he wants (Sammy beside him, hunting), as he was with Lucifer (vessel), and Castiel (target) and Gadreel (vessel). So it shouldn't be a surprise that Cole didn't apologise to Sam or that Sam didn't look for one. Sam was simply the pawn that Cole used to get what he wanted. Sam didn't expect an apology, or any form of atonement, from Cole because he has rarely gotten that from those who wrong him.

I initially thought the apology to Dean was more surprising because that would be like Dean or John apologizing to YED. Characters on this show seem to get over things very quickly when Dean is the one they are ticked at!
# Jen 2015-03-21 02:54
To all reading above comments all valid - And no one is BASHING the show directly or indirectly. Thay see two very very good actors being exploited by a panel of writers who havn't been with the show from day one. J & J have been there since the beginning - They like us HUMBLE FANS. won't the show to keep going. They both almost cry when they think of Sam & dean's inevitable deaths. They both have continually said with good story lines thaey don't see why the show can't run another 10 yrs ?!

The problem here is ( my opinion ) are the boys as unhappy as us - if so - are they being pressured to except things the way they are !? We don't know what goes on behind the scenes we don't know what their contracts are, we basically only know what were told. I'm gonna get hammered for my next comment but here goes :(:( I do surf the net I do look for anything regarding SPN and some of the sites Ive been to or some sites that look proffesional are down right STUPID - the fans are so young and say the dumbest things they don't care about story, canon, how the show was 10 yrs ago. They are more interested in sex, clothless, actors, I would love to get to see a bit more skin - come on both boys are gorgeous (where appropriete) ( I didn't get A for spelling sorry ) Like in the steamy hot cabin !!!!
But in all honesty how many shows can you watch that has two sexy guys, who DON'T NEED TO TAKE THEIR CLOTHES OFF. to prove they can act !!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. WFB your sister site on face book can a generel question be asked on there - something like a poll The question could be asked in a ambiguous (I checked the spelling LOL ) way or is there rules & regulations for this. Love to all fans LETS GET SOME POSTIVE VIBES TOGETHER FOR A HAPPY FUTURE FOR OUR SWEET SAM & DEAN XXXOOO :):):):)
# Jen 2015-03-21 03:35
Hi Guys me again LOL Read that article - Meet & Greet Tidbits S10 getting darker mmmmmm. We never did see any story back up on Sam after S9 It was all about Deanmon & Castiel Maybe SAM isn't Sam ????
And all will be revealed maybe this is why they arn't focusing on Sam and his story line at the moment because they don't won't us to pick up on anything HEEEEEEEEEEHEEE EEE
Just trying to lighten the load Sorry PS Maybe Sam likes hammers LOL I'm going sorry I'm going to curl up in a corner and cry My poor Sam :(:(:(
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 10:37
I read that article and was very sad.The line where they mention charlie had me seething.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 11:26
You and me both! I was kind of hoping she'd stay in Oz, and now she's actually going to be instrumental in saving Dean? I guess Sam is just too stupid to figure it out on his own.
# njspnfan 2015-03-21 13:40
Mary Sue to the rescue !!!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 13:47
I do not keep track of writers but I think she is thompson's or some guy's? insert.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 16:59
Yes she is Thompson's little pet. I know I'm in the minority but I find Charlie incredibly annoying. She was OK in her first appearance but she has gotten on my nerves every other time, although I kind of liked Dark Charlie. Suddenly she's not just a computer genius, but she's smarter than everyone about everything. But wait, that's not all! She's apparently even a better fighter than Sam! I don't know why being dark would automatically make you a kick ass fighter, but when you're Charlie the magic just happens. She easily whupped everyone until her final fight with Dean. I actually groaned when she said she would go look up that book in Italy. And now she's back to possibly do what dumb ole Sam couldn't- save Dean. If that is how it unfolds I might actually cry. Unless the episode ends with Dean killing her. Then it would be worth it (almost). If Thompson only enjoyed writing Sam one tenth as much as he enjoys writing Charlie.
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 17:40
This has nothing to do with this episode but finally watched the charlie one.The sceen where she pushes the lady to Sam and then Dean chases her to the hallway where they have a fight and after the fight ended Sam is still asking the lady is she okay.Shouldn't he have gone to help Dean?Why did it take him so long?Do the writers even know how rediculous the series of event was.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 17:47
Your version makes too much sense and would have deprived the viewers of Charlie's leglock around Dean's neck.
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 03:56
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 18:04
I think at that point Sam thought Dean could easily handle Charlie. Sam stayed with the congress? woman to get the information as to why Charlie was there.
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 03:56
Sorry Cheryl tried to see it your way.Did not make sense.He too one sentence of information.
# cheryl42 2015-03-22 19:36
I am not sure what you are referring to. Do you mean Sam only needed one sentence of information? He needed to know the name and why she wanted the bank statements from a woman who had been held a knife point and beaten. It might have taken a few moments. Dean's little tussle with Charlie only lasted a few moments as well. Like I said I am sure Sam thought that Dean Winchester could take on 90lb Charlie (who they had no reason to think would turn on them) without his help. But everyone interprets the show in their own way this was just mine.
# anonymousN 2015-03-23 03:42
What I mean is they have seen how ruthless and cruel Charlie was.It was the threat which had run away....they even where not sure it was Charlie.He only asked her one question and he got one statement answer .It did not take such less time for Dean and Charlie fight .That Dean had to go out to see charlie go off and sam was not there.Sam was even not there when good Charlie said "whatsup bitches". Rather then give Sam a screen exit they forgot about Sam in that scene.
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 18:01
I think Charlie will be around for awhile. Jared and Jensen love her as well. She is also one of those side characters that take some off the burden off the guys. Robbie is the one who introduced Charlie so he writes for her when the season calls for her character to appear. I think he writes the brothers really well too.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 19:15
I've resigned myself to her continued presence on the show. But when I think of the terrific women that have been killed off- like Ellen and Pamela and even Sara- I don't think Charlie can hold a candle to them. And I'm tired of her being constantly portrayed as the greatest genius since Einstein, especially when Thompson dumbs down Sam to emphasize Charlie's brilliance. Thompson might be a good writer, but I don't think he does that much better than the others at including Sam in his episodes. But reasonable minds can differ!
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 19:57
I liked Slash Fiction and Time after Time (Sam and Jodie). He also wrote Goodbye Stranger and First Born I loved the Sam and Cas scenes as well as Dean, Crowley and Cain. I think he does ensemble pretty well. Pac Man Fever had some good Sam insight, even though it was a Charlie episode there was a lot of foretelling for Sam and Dean. Yes he wrote Metafiction but that was in the back half of a very disjointed S9 that was trying to find it's way after the disaster that was Bloodlines. Everyone was struggling then. And I know I was one of the few that really liked Bitten. I enjoy his writing but Robert Berens is taking the #1 spot for me.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 21:24
Thank you for reminding me about some of those earlier episodes. I liked some of them very much and some included Sam POV. I guess what bothers me about the Charlie eps- well, aside from Charlie herself- is that like all of the other writers Thompson simply cannot conceive of anyone liking Sam more than Dean. On paper, the Charlie who first appeared on SPN seemed to have more in common with Sam. Both are very smart, and Sam is no slouch with computers either. And Charlie seems of a more intellectual nature, like Sam. But suddenly in the LARPing episode Charlie and Dean are besties and by Pac Man she loves Dean and they have a nice soul-baring interaction. Even in Fan Fiction, which I liked very much, Dean has the nice interlude with Marie, who is actually a Sam girl. This leads me
to believe that like all of the other writers, Thompson simply prefers writing Dean. Although I will concede that based on the episodes you listed it is not as glaring as with the other writers. I once thought that based on Time After Time and A Rock and A Hard Place Jody was being groomed as Sam's special friend but that has not transpired. BTW, I loved leviathan Sam and Dean a lot. Their conversation in the diner complaining about their respective bodies was hilarious.
# cheryl42 2015-03-21 21:39
Ah but Pac Man gave us the surprise hug....:)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-21 22:30
Honestly that was my favorite part of the ep. It was so unexpected but so heartfelt. One of the best hugs of the series.
# cheryl42 2015-03-22 02:06
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 06:38
Ah but Pac Man gave us the surprise hug....:)
Sorry cheryl but that hug did not satisfy me as it did not lead to anything.
# cheryl42 2015-03-22 19:25
I guess we all watch the episodes in our own way. I loved the spontaneous moment of that hug. It was genuine. Whether it lead anywhere or not didn't really matter to me. I just loved the hug for what it was right then.
# leah 2015-03-22 15:59
I loved that hug Cheryl. Hug don't need to lead to anything. This was spontaneous and said a lot in that moment.:)
# anonymousN 2015-03-23 04:21
@ Leah and Cheryl
There were five hugs in the episode.The first two were greeting by Charlie.The next two were Dean comforting Charlie and Sam sending off her which was nothing special as it did not show any thing special between them,,the lat one between Dean and Charlie showed that their relationship was closer and that was not surprising.I would definitely like to know which hug you guys were specifically referring to because i would like to know why it was surprising.The first one she hugged them both..the second on sam hugged her not the other way around.I would like to give the context of my comments..there is dearth of Sam only or sam centric/Dean interacting guest stars even jody who appeared this season did not give that Sam cetred view. The two nerds geeks or whatever (I do not know which term ) i.e frank and Charlie were both somehow more closer to Dean.I can think of no character now who is Sam far as asking why charlie? she is the only one who has potential of being that.The same episode which you guys have mentioned is the one where she credits Dean for saving the world and Sam...I do not even want to mention it as it sickens me.

But I do definitely want to know what was so special about the hug and what that hug said...
# cheryl42 2015-03-23 16:14
Oh my goodness.....Th e Hug....the beautiful spontaneous hug that Dean gave Sam at the end of the episode. Sam started to apologize for disobeying Dean's orders to stay at the bunker and heal up from the second trial and almost getting himself and others killed (he did save everyone in the end though). Dean after seeing his worst nightmare in his dream state of Sam dead in the hospital was so relieved that Sam was still there and they could still fight together to save him gave Sam the best brother hug of the entire series (well maybe Lazarus Rising was better). That hug.... the last hug
# anonymousN 2015-03-24 03:12
That was the sixth hug which I missed.*embarrased*
It was just that since I was speaking about Charlie and how Sam was dumbed down I more focused on the hugs given by charlie or to Charlie.While I do understand and have seen how much the fans enjoy those hugs...It has ceased to mean anything to me after season 7.But yes Sam was definitely surprised.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-24 06:53
That was a great hug!!! Loved how Sam was so taken by surprise! Great scene by Jared and Jensen!!!
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 03:53
On paper, the Charlie who first appeared on SPN seemed to have more in common with Sam. Both are very smart, and Sam is no slouch with computers either. And Charlie seems of a more intellectual nature, like Sam. But suddenly in the LARPing episode Charlie and Dean are besties and by Pac Man she loves Dean and they have a nice soul-baring interaction. Even in Fan Fiction, which I liked very much, Dean has the nice interlude with Marie, who is actually a Sam girl.
This is the problem I see.But these are the norm in Charlie present/centric episodes.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-22 10:52
Did you know that the couple sitting down from LeviSam and LeviDean is Jensens Sister and Brother-In-Law? Also the lady sitting in the back booth is S.E. Hinton?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-22 20:36
I did know about SE Hinton but I didn't know about Jensen's family. In fact I didn't know Jensen had a sister. I'll have to look for them next time I watch that ep.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-23 00:23
I think she (Mackenzie) also appeared in the same episode Jensens dad did. The one Jensen directed about the Mayan guy that ate hearts(?) to continue to live. His Brother In Law, Gino (Danneels brother) and her niece were in the Crowleys throne room scene several eps back. The one Jensen directed. Mark Shepards son Max was also in that shot. I love BTS stuff.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-23 19:33
Where do you find this kind of info?
# AlyCat22 2015-03-24 06:49
No one spot. Con videos, Twitter accounts. S.E. Hinton set report. Interviews with Jensen and/or Jared. M&G reports... Different places. I didnt know the one about Jareds parents. I'm confused as to what scene they were in? I kinda take things with a grain of salt unless I hear or read it from J2 or family, friends, crew, directors. For cool bts stuff I periodically check twitter accounts of the directors, stunt guys, crew members, guest actors... I'm sure there are many other sources I'm not aware of. :)
# E 2015-03-24 11:35
It's in Pac Man Fever…. when the two boys find the dead body, poke it with a stick and it explodes all over them. Sam, Dean and Charlie come to investigate and there is a crowd gathered gawking at the scene. Jared indicated on his twitter (I think) that his parents were there on set and the director let them stay and be filmed in the scene.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-24 12:48
Now I remember! Thanks!
# E 2015-03-23 23:46
Oh… and Jared's parents where among the spectators looking at the body that exploded in that Sam Charlie dream episode. Heh!
# AlyCat22 2015-03-23 00:11
Yay Robbie B!!!!
# cheryl42 2015-03-23 18:41
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-23 19:32
I think she was referring to your shout out to Berens as your favorite writer. But I guess I shouldn't speak for AlyCat
# cheryl42 2015-03-23 19:47
Oops....duh..I couldn't figure out who RB was. Depending on the moment and if I reminisce too much I go back and forth. However really for the brothers Carver is the best of the group. He just doesn't write enough. EK and SG wrote a lot more scripts than Carver. Very disappointing.
# E 2015-03-23 23:56
Sorry Cheryl, I don't find that Carver writes Sam any better than any of the other writers, especially not lately. Isn't Carver the one who told us in a single sentence that Sam had been having nightmares, but could't be bothered to show us that? Isn't Carver the one in season 9 who summed up a years worth of destructive brother fighting in "I lied" and "I'm proud of us" ? It's just the absolute worst, trite kind of writing… and he considered that a "resolution." Furthermore it's Carver who's letting the other writers continually drop the ball where Sam is concerned; I mean, he's the show runner. Kripke used to dictate to the other writers what the focus and content of the episodes needed to be to establish continuity, canon, flow, pacing and character development. Carver clearly isn't doing that; he's allowing AG to make a fool of Sam continuously to prop up Dean; he's allowing Robbie Thompson to make BOTH brother's look dumb to prop up his pet character Charlie, and allowing Ross-Leming/ Bruckner to absolutely trash canon right and left when it suits them, so that the world Kripke built is nearly unrecognizable and the established rules of the hunting world are basically shot. So, IMO opinion Carver isn't the best of the bunch writing wise, he's merely mediocre and a crummy show runner to boot. I have no idea where the man who wrote AVSNC and Mystery Spot went, but perhaps without the guiding force of Kripke behind his scripts he really isn't all that good anymore.
# cheryl42 2015-03-24 00:43
I really wasn't referring to Carver as a showrunner but as a writer. It is true that he often leaves himself with way to much to do in wrapping up the season finales (although I loved Sacrifice). That is why I would like to see him write more during the season. I think it would keep him and the other writers focused on where he wants the story to go. As you mentioned he wrote some of the best brother episodes in the history of the show. I think he gets the brothers very well he just leaves the writing to others. And according to Jared there was a lot of dialog written for the season finale of S9 but he (Jared) suggested that it be cut down to just one line. I would like to know what all of the dialog was. Maybe there was a lot of exposition there that would have clarified the season better for some fans. I don't know. All I know is that I really enjoy his scripts for the most part.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-23 00:10
Yeah I think he does too. Charlie is okay dialed down. If he could just get over his MarySue compulsions as well as stop writing entire episodes to showcase only her then I think she'd be fine. That's not saying I want her back but if we are stuck with her at least make her tolerable!
# cheryl42 2015-03-23 18:47
I get it you don't like Charlie. Lots of fans do. Probably more than don't. My only problem with Charlie is that RT does write the brothers better than the other writers so every episode dedicated to Charlie is another one that RT doesn't write for the brothers. He does do a good job of intertwining their story into the Charlie episodes but I would like to see him write solely (and it looks like he is going to this season) for Sam and Dean.
# cheryl42 2015-03-23 18:49
I can't edit because I can't log in. With the exception of Carver who is almost a guest writer at this point RT writes the brothers better than the others.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-22 10:22
Wait. You think you are in the MINORITY because you find Charlie incredibly annoying?!? I'd say we are the majority. We just keep getting how super special, beloved and great Charlies character is shoved down our collective throats by the writer and TPTB. I don't think most people are buying what they are selling anymore than we thought it was a good decision to keep Coles age where it is. No offense, Travis - we love you but all it would've taken is for the writer to tweak that script and it would've made more sense.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-22 20:41
Wow, I'm honestly but pleasantly surprised. It had seemed to me that after every Charlie ep most fans are thrilled to have her back. And I think I've even seen her described more than once as a "fan favorite." Did you always find her annoying? I truly thought my Charlie bashing would get some argument. And I feel slightly guilty for rooting for yet another woman to get killed off, but to me she is usually like nails on a blackboard.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-23 00:04
Never crazy about her - she was ok in her initial episode, I kinda liked her in the larping and the djinn ep but she completely lost me with the first Oz episode. If RT didn't have to write her so stupidly she wouldn't be half as annoying. I hate the dumbing down of the Winchesters whenever she is around, how she's always the best and the brightest... Marysues are annoying in general but she abuses that privilege. This last episode with the DarkCharlie singlehandedly winning the War on Oz? No, just no. When Sam sent her to Rome for the Book of the Dead I wanted to crawl into a corner and weep. If they play down her character when she returns then I'd be cool with it - that is when she is actually likeable. Do you hear us Robbie!!!
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 08:20
No, I think you have it right. This fandom wants to read way too much into simple tweets, pictures, glances... and then there are those that act like they are psychic and can tell what the J's are thinking, the people obsessed with where they are at at any given moment, and then the really creepy ones that state that Jared and Jensen are gay lovers and that they know what positions are preferred and by which. Ugh. Oh, and their wifes are beards.
# Fazzie 2015-03-21 09:45
Alice, I understand your frustration about the execution.

Season 3 and season 4 Sam's actions made sense, even when he was angry at Dean. This time on paper they seem to make sense but after watching half a season of Dean having the mark and Sam holding onto his anger more than being desperate to get it off Dean after seeing its affect on his brother means we have a big disconnect especially after watching seasons 3 and 4.

It is like there is another half of a message in the last episode that was geared towards Sam as much as the monsters within was geared towards Dean. On paper the wife of the first solider did everything right, she went to the VA, thought it was PTSD but she obviously also had a little baby to focus on. She tried to get him help but her focus was elsewhere so was kind of thought once they decided on a label he'd sort himself out and she'd just prod every once in a while when she did her stuff. But it was really the wrong type of help for him, so the guy ended up in such a bad place he killed someone and ended himself. It isn't saying it is her fault but just how her things affected him too and that I think ties into Sam's supposed storyline. Sam, who for two seasons, focused on his stuff much more than really dealing (not seeing) dealing with Dean's issues until Dean got skewered in front of him. That isn't saying Sam was wrong to not deal with his own stuff it is saying that in truth he wasn't actually really helping Dean in a way that would work because his focus was elsewhere.

Dean's thing about trying to comfort Sam about Kit's death with 'you do the right thing and sometimes the guy still dies' felt more about what happens when on paper you do everything right for the person and in turn yourself but end up not giving the right help at the right time then realising that it maybe to late to do anything because when you could you didn't really do what was needed.

That is the best I can take away from this. The affect isn't helped when you also having Dean stow his anger and act and play nurse to Sam in the trials and take Sam's anger after getting the mark in season 9 and then being able to help Cole in a way that worked.
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 10:36
(Edited by Alice. I think you're focusing too much on single words and phrases and not the overall meaning. This was not an attack on Sam at all and she wasn't praising Dean either).
# Fazzie 2015-03-21 11:33
AnonymousN, I'm viewing this from Sam's POV.

(Edited by Alice, only because I removed AnonymousN's comment).

Sam's focus for the past two seasons wasn't fully on his brother being screwed up for many reasons, But long and short of it Dean wasn't right and Sam knew it and he wasn't able to fully put down what he was focusing on to deal with it. As you put it him focusing on himself while Dean was slowly and obviously breaking in front of him.

Now Dean is saying he is past help and are you saying Sam wouldn't be looking back and regretting that it has gotten to the point where his brother seems content just to keep going before going nuts? Like Sam wouldn't have any regrets how he has handled things - any human being would, especially in the light that he has seen the person breaking put their stuff down to make sure that he got help for worked in the past.

Just like that wife obviously did while cradling that baby. Because as she said while her husband obviously had something major wrong with him, she thought her husband had 'just' been suffering from PTSD after he came back from a place he went to only to serve his country and do what he thought was right to ensure she and the child would live in a safer world.
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 12:32
AnonymousN, I'm viewing this from Sam's POV.
The first three quotes from your comment have nothing to do with Sam POV.Quote:
So don't turn this into people victimising Sam so you have to say Dean is bad.
I did not say Dean is bad.What I said was dean was not a nursemaid and he did not take Sam's anger .Also I wanted Dean to want to help himself as in have hope.These are not telling Dean is bad.If you think so I cannot do anything about that.Quote:
But long and short of it Dean wasn't right and Sam knew it and he wasn't able to fully put down what he was focusing on to deal with it.
Because the issues sam was dealing was not minor ones.If so then the same can be said about Dean .That he did not focus on Sam's issues and went away with Crowley .Quote:
As you put it him focusing on himself while Dean was slowly and obviously breaking in front of him.
Not in front of him he was with crowley.Quote:
Sam wouldn't be looking back and regretting
I dont see a reason for Sam to look back and regret.Sam was just depossessed..Dean did not wait for a day even an hour .He left him with Cas and he went with Crowley.So your assertion that somehow Sam could see Dean breaking and he did not do a thing does not jive with what was shown.Moreover the fact that Dean did not do anything FOR Sam when Sam was obviously traumatized speaks volumes about the blindening shame he was feeling. I did not write this part of the story.Quote:
put their stuff down to make sure that he got help for worked in the past.
By using your own standards Not in season4, 5 ,not when Sam was obviously traumatized with being possessed.

(Edited by Alice - I've read over Fazzie's comments very carefully. I see no idealizing of Dean at all. No, Fazzie doesn't praise Sam like you wish, but isn't praising Dean either. The rest of your comment is well stated, so I'll leave that intact).
# Fazzie 2015-03-21 12:54
(Edited by Alice - removing since I addressed this in the prior edit).
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 13:19
# Fazzie 2015-03-21 14:16
Well it seems you do.

I agreed with Alice that there is a disconnect between season 10 Sam and how he reacted when desperately trying to help Dean in previous seasons considering the Sam and Dean relationship in seasons 8 and 9, then I mention that the take away from this episode for Sam is a parallel with the wife of the first solider and why I think that. But your response seems to be that Dean was at fault for his own situation and Sam shouldn't feel guilty at all or really do anything as it is up to Dean to do that and Sam had been busy dealing with how he felt which I didn't find fault in Sam also focusing on.

That is a lot of Dean hating to come out defending Sam.
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 15:10
Well it seems you do
seeming and being are two different things.Quote:
But your response seems to be that Dean was at fault for his own situation
Rather than be with Sam when he was recovering from the possession he ran away with crowley.I did not write this the show has shown this.Then the show must hate Dean.I am just saying about what was shown on the show.Quote:
really do anything
I did not say this.what I said was Dean should want to help himself and I stand by it .He has to regain his hope that he can help himself..have trust in himself that maybe he is strong enough..that there is a way.whatever sam does Dean has to believe himself Sam cannot do that for him.If you want to see it as Dean hate then so be it.But the things that you said happend have not happened I have quoted specifically about the points I have disagreed with you.
That is a lot of Dean hating to come out defending Sam.
If you write my comments then definitely that is lot of hate.But lucky for me you are not.
# Fazzie 2015-03-21 15:45
I'm not writing your comments, I am reading them and it is coming out as you don't like that I'm saying Sam maybe thinking that if he made some choices differently earlier, Dean maybe more willing to fight now. That isn't saying Sam is at fault for anything or Dean has been perfect but according to you it is seeing how you have to pull out Dean did 'x' and Dean did 'y' while Sam was dispossessed. Sam wasn't just dispossessed when he admit he was lying when he said those things in the purge because he was angry. He wasn't just dispossessed when he suggested they keep the blade and pull it out for the big bads after watching Dean go postal on Abaddon's corpse.

Did he have a right to be angry, yes, was possibly keeping the blade on hand for the worst of the worst a good idea, yes. Where those actions actually helpful for Sam in dealing with the Dean in front of him - not so much. Does that make either brother a bad person - no. Does that mean Sam wishes if he had time to go back he would possibly do things differently, probably yes. Does that tie into the desperation that Alice talked about now, yes it does. Does Sam feel bad because he has seen in the past Dean put aside his issues such as left over anger of not being looked for and feeling like a grunt to offer to be the Rudy hobbit and make sure Sam is as comfortable as he could be during the trials while he was angry and even when Dean stopped him from coming with he got there to see his brother stabbed infront of him? And one of the last things his brother asked before he died was about him thinking Sam was okay with Dean dying.

Of course Sam is affected by that, he is going to have regrets about things and how they tie into things now and guess what, it gives Sam a POV something I desperately want Sam to have but just putting it back on Dean always robs Sam of that as he becomes a reactor monkey.

(Edited by Alice - I wouldn't say EVERY time Fazzie. I like reading your opinions, and lots of other people do too. Most of the time you aren't in this situation. But I agree, one shouldn't have to face such hostility over having an opinion and it happens more often that I would like. I say this to both Dean fans and Sam fans, remember on this site, we POLITELY agree to disagree.)
# anonymousN 2015-03-21 16:16
I'm saying Sam maybe thinking that if he made some choices differently earlier,
if it shown in the show that Sam is thinking this then I will agree with you .But as of now Sam's POV is a very rare event,Quote:
Dean did 'x' and Dean did 'y' while Sam was dispossessed.
1) depossessed not dispossessed. (2) Recently there was a commentor who said that we have to mention the mistakes made by Sam while discussing the actions made by Dean or else we would be at the risk of 'seeming' unbalanced.Quote:
Sam wasn't just dispossessed when he admit he was lying when he said those things in the purge because he was angry.
when did he say that .He said "I lied" about what? there were three to our answers given in this site by fans like us.Nothing concrete was shown in the show so your guess is as good as mine.Quote:
He wasn't just dispossessed when he suggested they keep the blade and pull it out for the big bads after watching Dean go postal on Abaddon's corpse.
The point you are making here is?Quote:
Where those actions actually helpful for Sam in dealing with the Dean in front of him - not so much.
did anyone know how to help Dean with Dean .No.

(Edited by Alice - Everyone here is allowed to share their opinion. Fazzie wasn't stating it as fact. 99% of our discussions here are opinion and she didn't say she was speaking for the writers. So I'm removing the snarky replies.)

Dean put aside his issues such as left over anger of not being looked for
Sam thought Dean was dead.Dean did not care about it Sam does not care about Dean's illusions.Quote:
feeling like a grunt to offer to be the Rudy hobbit
Dean's feelings .He has to get through them.Quote:
make sure Sam is as comfortable as he could be during the trials while he was angry and even when Dean stopped him from coming with he got there to see his brother stabbed infront of him?
and I appreciate Dean for thinking about Sam's comfort for change .He just had to leave Sam at pluckys for sam's comfort.poor Dean.Quote:
And one of the last things his brother asked before he died was about him thinking Sam was okay with Dean dying.
Sam gave Dean comfort by telling Dean that he lied ..when he never said that he was Okay with Dean dying in different conditions.That is Sam ..right there, Giving credence to Dean's warped understanding of Sam's words because Dean was dying.

(Edited - that was uncalled for)

It gives Sam a POV something I desperately want Sam tIf this is the POV that YOU want Sam to have I definitely do not want this to be the POV that is shown. (Edited by Alice - not relevant, or required). Quote:
it back on Dean always robs Sam of that as he becomes a reactor monkey.
No it does not>It makes Sam involved in Dean's decision to take on mark.When dean makes mistake Sam has to be a part..but when Lisa credited Dean and only Dean or when Charlie did the Same I saw no comment from your quarters about Sam's POV or that it was on Dean.Where was the balance then.
# Fazzie 2015-03-21 19:09
Right at the beginning of my comment I stated that the parallel of the vet's wife was to Sam as the one with the monsters within was for Dean.

That is balance - mentioning both have a parallel in the story.

When the wife said about thinking it was 'just' PTSD Sam looked sad and a little bit guilty and glanced at Dean, it IMO to show Sam could understand how exactly how she felt because he was feeling something akin to it. The bit a the end he said he felt crummy and Dean said about how even if you do everything right the guy still dies but that is just after he saved Cole by giving Cole help at at time when it would be effective and Sam couldn't do that for Kit.

That is me trying to balance out Sam's storyline with Dean's and if you are convinced I'm just slamming Sam for the fun of it I can't convince you otherwise. Because I'm not doing lets tear one a new one because someone said something that I don't like about the other one
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 20:36
You can't win here - save yourself the aggravation. :) The points you made were valid and well thought out.
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 03:45
Edited reply because I want to save myself some aggravation.
# Fazzie 2015-03-22 05:48

It is a weird sensation commenting on this site sometimes. Should have a rumble corner ;)
# Sharon 2015-03-22 06:08
Not really everybodys point's are valid .I know people want Sam to act a certain way and believe he has a point to prove where Dean is concerned because of last season and his reaction but I am not one of them.
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 06:36
he has a point to prove where Dean is concerned
Sam will always have point to prove for them.
# Fazzie 2015-03-22 06:49
Thanks Sharon.

See I don't want Sam prove a point, I just want follow through on things. Not just with him but Dean as well and it all to be logical.

I hate dropped lines and I hate the idea is the idea that some fans seem to have is that they can't do something with one as it means they are being mean to him and not being mean with the other. Because that isn't being logical and realisitc.

Both boys have said and done things, especially in the last two seasons that need to be followed through in the context of the situation while staying human beings. For me I have no problem with Sam being angry last season, however I do think that him holding onto his anger for so long while Dean is now where he is is going to cause him a load of regrets. Whether rightly or wrongly he is going to have those seeing how he is seeing his brother in trouble. He was an active participant in the brothers relationship being dodgy over the last two seasons and now one of them is facing oblivion. So Sam is going to have regrets.

Why do I say that - because it is a human thing to do. Also Jared said himself the reason Sam is getting desperate isn't just because he wants to save his brother, but he has seen in the past Dean put everything to save him and he wants to be able to do the same thing for Dean.

I kind of felt the look that he threw Dean after the wife admitted she 'just' thought her husband was suffering PTSD tied into his confession in season 8 - she felt she let her husband down by not doing more for him and Sam feels that with regard to the mark he is letting Dean down.

For me that isn't Sam trying to prove a point, him doing things to prove points while Dean is worried about going the same way as Caine doesn't make Sam a caring brother who wants to do what he can for his brother but cold hearted arrogant git because that means his own superiority would be more important to him than dealing with other people's suffering.

But does that make Dean an angel, god no. I'm the same with Dean, if he is doing things to prove points or score them then he is a cold hearted bastard. Also do I think he should he give up with regard to the mark, no. Should he have acted out and taken the mark, no. Should he, seeing he is in his 30's, acts like a little kid by nicking a bit of frosting off cake because he's been told he shouldn't take a piece, Good God no. Someone is going to get that slice and he's stuck his fingers in it.
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 06:58

For me that isn't Sam trying to prove a point,
A finds it as Sam proving point and B finds it as Sam not proving a point.What matters is whether Sam was proving a point or not.Someone finding it Sam proving a point does not make Sam arrogant coldhearted git or whatever.Sharon was talking about those people for whom Sam should always be proving himself To Dean.
# Sharon 2015-03-22 08:05
I am not talking about Sam but attitudes within the fandom and to a certain extent the writers room. It is all very well the situation being turned back on Sam and that the narrative of the show since season 8 as been Sam 'letting Dean down' which has carried through to where we are now but it is not one I can support any longer.

The show is too character bias too interested in the sympathetic Dean to truly give Sam the honest storytelling he needs. He was not the one that caused that situation last year but what came about esp after the Purge and Sam is that Dean became the victim which is not a true reflection .
# Fazzie 2015-03-22 08:28
Oh I agree the writers did a real number on Sam, a right royal one. Especially considering that it has come out that Jared put the 'I lied' in to soften the original line. But they also did a number on him in season 8.

For me it wasn't done to make Dean more sympathetic but because Carver has an agenda that never made sense to me. One minute Sam was supposed to be the mature one in season 8 then they down graded him to emotional toddler (I'm saying that for the death of Martin and Carver had Sam concentrate on the text and Dean hanging around with Benny rather than the death) and they never fully pulled him back in a way that actually makes sense in terms of story.

If Carver's arc was meant to be for two seasons Sam thought he was more mature than he thought he was and then realised he wasn't and rebuilt himself in terms of his relationship with his brother there has been piss poor execution of it in terms of what Sam is doing. And because of that I don't think that Dean is exactly more sympathetic but just more consistent in terms of writing we have a A to B to C to D linear storyline which ties into his emotional arc. Whereas Sam character wise we have A to B to A to F to three years ago to potty training to G to A to D to C.

But I have to accept that is now where we are whether I like it or not as my only other option is not watching.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-22 10:03
Logic certainly does not always prevail, that is for sure. ;)
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 03:44
That is balance - mentioning both have a parallel in the story.
Alice, I understand your frustration about the execution.

Season 3 and season 4 Sam's actions made sense, even when he was angry at Dean. This time on paper they seem to make sense but after watching half a season of Dean having the mark and Sam holding onto his anger more than being desperate to get it off Dean after seeing its affect on his brother means we have a big disconnect especially after watching seasons 3 and 4.
No mention of the wife.Ypu onl\y mention Sam when you have to say that he did not do something. (Edited by Alice, not relevant to discussion). Quote:
When the wife said about thinking it was 'just' PTSD
Because the wife did not know what was happening to her husband and in Sam's case Dean has not yet told about what Cain has told him.The wife like Sam is dealing with her husband withe facts that are available to her.What you are doing is seeing the things from the facts that are available to Dean and I am doing the same by including what Sam knows.As Sam can act only by the facts that Sam knows.You mentioned the wife i agree but no crdence was given to what she knows.You said she had other things to do so she did not see what was happening to her husband..but the fact is that she did the best for her husband with the facts that are available to her.She did not know about the kahn worm.By saying the wife did not see what was infront of her you are saying Sam did not see what was in front of him when actually the wife did not know about the khan worm and Dean has not yet told Sam about what Cain has said.(Edited by Alice, I will not allow any more heated exchange of words). Quote:
Because I'm not doing lets tear one a new one because someone said something that I don't like about the other one
So am I .But when you say things like Dean being nursemaid which does not have any basis on the show I will say they are false..not because I want to say Dean is bad because what you are saying is false.Funnily "Dean was not a nurse maid" does not make Dean bad. (Edited, your point is well stated, so I'm removing accusations of intentions that I don't think are there).
# Fazzie 2015-03-22 05:57
(Note from Alice - I'm editing some parts of here just to take some of the hostile tone out of the discussion. I'm editing everyone's post that way, so you're not being singled out. I do accept things got a bit heated and I'm not throwing blame on how it got started). Firstly with regard to the show - Did you watch the second half of season 8? Dean worrying about Sam falling apart and cooking, dunking him in the ice bath, the episode with Charlie about her letting go of her mum and he couldn't with Sam, while driving Sam up the wall when he mother henned him even and at the end how he could list all the things Sam could confess while he just looked after him while Sam was having problems standing up.

Short hand - Dean acting as nursemaid to Sam. (Edited)

Now the rest.

No mention of the wife.Ypu onl\y mention Sam when you have to say that he did not do something .I have read your comment .
Then you quote the part I mentioned the wife???? What, that makes no sense.

(Edited - I'm removing that part of the post you quoted, so it's been edited here too. What was said isn't relevant to the discussion.)
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 06:34
(Edited by Alice - I've warned you about tone and temper NUMEROUS times AnoymousN over the last year. It is very, very clear that someone disagrees with you here, and you're fueling hostility. You do have issues with disagreement. I'm not saying you alone are a guilty party in this discussion, but it always seems to happen with you. This is not an isolated incident. Please, "agree to disagree" when someone doesn't see things the way you do and be respectful in your rebuttals).

Firstly with regard to the show - Did you watch the second half of season 8? Dean worrying about Sam falling apart and cooking, dunking him in the ice bath,
I did and dean was not a nurse maid.You have a very exagerrated view of Dean's actions I do not.You have a weird way of putting Dean on a pedestal.

(Note from Alice - How is this putting Dean on a pedestal?? I agree with Fazzie, I thought Dean was a nursemaid, but that's only my opinion. If you don't agree that's perfectly okay, but throwing assumptions that this observation an attack on Sam and Dean is being made to look like a saint isn't fair at all. You've gotten the wrong impression).

Those are not actions of a nurse maid.So telling what Sam has to confess to is making Dean a nursemaid, dunking Sam in ice cold water ..brotherly..when Sam came out after sleeping Dean threw him a beer ...nice nurse maid you have there.I would be so glad to have been looked after by a nursemaid who would throw food and drinks at me...when my brother cannot standup and I support him I am the nursemaid and it is not a brotherly thing to do? Quote:
Short hand - Dean acting as nursemaid to Sam.
No.He was acting like a GOOD brother.

(Edited by Alice - I'm throwing the rest of the comment out because it's just exchanging insults at this point).
# anonymousN 2015-03-23 05:48
I thought Dean was a nursemaid,
If you say Dean was a nurse maid then yes I disagree with you because there is no basis for this in the show.This is what I mean as idealized where Dean helping Sam when he was sick somehow makes him a nursemaid.It is obvious that we disagree .
# Alice 2015-03-23 17:07
Fair enough. The opinion is allowed. The harsh attitude is not.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-21 20:16
(Edited by Alice - not relevant to discussion).
# anonymousN 2015-03-22 03:34
(Edited by Alice - you know the rules. Stay on topic).
# anonymousN 2015-03-23 05:40
# Alice 2015-03-23 01:53
It is like there is another half of a message in the last episode that was geared towards Sam as much as the monsters within was geared towards Dean. On paper the wife of the first solider did everything right, she went to the VA, thought it was PTSD but she obviously also had a little baby to focus on. She tried to get him help but her focus was elsewhere so was kind of thought once they decided on a label he'd sort himself out and she'd just prod every once in a while when she did her stuff. But it was really the wrong type of help for him, so the guy ended up in such a bad place he killed someone and ended himself. It isn't saying it is her fault but just how her things affected him too and that I think ties into Sam's supposed storyline. Sam, who for two seasons, focused on his stuff much more than really dealing (not seeing) dealing with Dean's issues until Dean got skewered in front of him. That isn't saying Sam was wrong to not deal with his own stuff it is saying that in truth he wasn't actually really helping Dean in a way that would work because his focus was elsewhere.
A very interesting observation here. That's one of the things that really, really bugged me about season nine. They made Sam look like a horrible jerk after finding out he was possessed and he didn't see his own brother's troubles until it was too late. I'd like to think season ten is Sam taking his second chance and running with it, but he's also going to extremes the other way. I think it's starting to consume him now. But yes, I didn't think of all the parallel between him and the wife. I do see that there as well now that you mention it. I definitely agree with the ending remark and what Dean was saying. I'm just not entirely convinced Sam is listening! It's all stinging too hard right now I think.

That is the best I can take away from this. The affect isn't helped when you also having Dean stow his anger and act and play nurse to Sam in the trials and take Sam's anger after getting the mark in season 9 and then being able to help Cole in a way that worked.
Yeah, there's too much history there to work into one interaction or discussion. Still, I don't know, I had hoped for more. Dean just seemed so indifferent. But that seems to be Dean's mode right now, and it'll probably change next week. It does bother me how so different Dean is shown each week. So one week it makes sense story wise, and any inconsistencies I have to chalk up to bad writing.
# anonymousN 2015-03-23 07:03
They made Sam look like a horrible jerk after finding out he was possessed and he didn't see his own brother's troubles until it was too late.
It was simply that Sam had his own issues to Deal .For me Sam at time was a person who was possessed and was lied to by the same brother ..who did not even stay to be there during the fall out.The show while did not focus on Sam's issues or his story it was there Sam's anger and justified anger.
I would like you to understand something this is not blaming Dean..but seeing the the episodes that followed after gadreel's possession it was how Sam was thinking.For me they did not make Sam look like a jerk..because sam is a person... a person who is affected by things done to him the betrayals he experienced...I would never expect Sam's trauma to be diminished.
I do know that you do not blame sam..but Sam being an horrible Jerk would only happen if Sam himself never had any issues with what was done to him..but Sam had his issues and they tied in with his whole life story from birth i.e abuse of his body without his consent or not fully disclosing facts.So I find Sam being cool to Dean a reaction to what Dean did to him and a justified reaction.

(Edited by Alice - stay on topic. If you have an issue with the admin's decision - and I do accept explanations - send me an email. It does not belong in the comments).
# Sharon 2015-03-23 15:14
''They made Sam look like a horrible jerk'' of course , maybe if Sam's trauma had actually mattered to Dean the writers and alot of the fandom then his reaction would not of been seen as unfair and being a 'horrible jerk'' for not seeing what Dean had done to himself by getting the MOC and appreciating what Dean had done for him.
But hey now he can make up for it and there can be harmony in the oh so wonderful brothers relationship .
# cheryl42 2015-03-23 15:56
Yeah I have to jump on that bandwagon too. How does Sam after finding out that Dean had him possessed, lied to him about it for months, kicks Gadreel out, comes to find that he has needles stuck in his brain after being tortured for hours, still dying from the trials, whisked away to a cold dark bridge, told by Dean to get pissed and get over it, left there by Dean to deal with the mess Dean has made, hooked up at a later date where Dean tries to push Sam away by trying to make Sam leave the case, express his hurt over what Dean did to him, have Dean sit in the bunker and tell Sam that Kevin's life was worth the sacrifice as long as Sam was alive and then finally after all that Sam quietly tells Dean no same circumstances no I would never do that to you Dean, I would never want you to feel the way I do right now knowing that my life was spared at the expense of Kevin, how does that make Sam a horrible jerk? Because the camera lingered on Dean's sad face?
As for the MOC Dean leaves Sam on the bridge to avenge Kevin but instead falls into the arms of Crowley. Off to go find the Father of Murder. No problem, no questions take on the MOC. No idea what it will do to him or anyone around him but hey Dean doesn't think things all the way through. So Sam and Dean hook back up. Sam never leaves Dean's side not ever not once. Sam runs in a panic whenever Dean calls out for help (this was the most amicable rift the brothers ever had) As Sam sees what the Mark reunited with the Blade is doing to Dean he tries to keep the Blade away from Dean. When that doesn't work he tries locking Dean up (that dungeon is way too easy to break out of). Sam then tracks Dean and his new bromance down and says you and me together. Which of course Dean has other plans and well we all know the rest. How is any of this Sam's fault? Carver said at the beginning of S9 the season was going to be driven by Dean's choices. And boy were his choices doozies. I think we were supposed to be shocked at what Dean had done not furious with the fact the Sam was hurt and angry (while still there for Dean every step of the way).
By the way not blaming Dean here at all it was the way I saw the story was being written. I think the writers were trying to soften what they thought might have gone too far with Dean's character with having a rift between the brothers. It muddied the waters too much and the second half of S9 was disjointed and rushed. It really didn't do either brother's story very much justice.
# Alice 2015-03-23 17:14
I guess it's because I moderated a lot of comments at that time. So many fans were outraged that Sam would do that! I read tons of complaints. So, it was my dig on the writers for stirring up that kind of controversy. Did I think Sam was in the wrong? Absolutely not. He had every right to lash out. But yeah, the writers so didn't help themselves with the rest of the season, did they?
# cheryl42 2015-03-23 19:53
Sorry I got on a bit of a roll there. Evidently I had something to say....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-23 17:37
Cheryl, that is an excellent analysis of why it is so wrong to fault Sam for anything that happened to Dean in the 2nd half of season 9. The terrible writing and overly solicitous attitude of the writers towards Dean somehow resulted in Sam being the bad guy. It confounds me that so many people think Sam was the ungrateful crappy brother and Dean was the poor victim who somehow bears NO BLAME for the horribly misguided choices he made. I agree with every word you said.
# Jo1027 2015-03-24 09:20
I agree with your post. I don't understand either why Sam is just supposed to stuff down his feelings and be a yes man to Dean. Sam has a right to feel how he feels and to express that. Sam was not responsible for Dean taking on the mark, that is all on Dean. I'm really angry that Sam got the short end of the story-telling again in season 9. This is a pattern that has been there since season 4 and by now is beyond frustrating.
I also don't want Sam to go dark or compromise his morals to save Dean. I'd rather Dean kill him then have him do that.
# debbab 2015-03-21 14:02
Does this episode seem to have more gore than usual. I know the opening usually has a splat of blood, but I actually had to turn away a bit when Kit drank the girl. Maybe it was just too Criminal Minds. The episode for me just had a return to the horror genre in a real serious way. You know, you look but you want to look away but you look. Kudos to makeup and special effects on this one.
# sylvia37 2015-03-21 14:08
I found it exceptionally gross this time. I thought the opening shot was so human as opposed to monstery(?) It was very disturbing and very graphic IMO.
# debbab 2015-03-21 14:08
Does this episode seem like there was more gore than usual? Yes, there is always a kill with a splat of blood at the beginning, but this one was elongated. Maybe it was a reminder that this is a horror genre show. I had to look away but continued to watch. The girl hanging upside down, drinking the blood. It just seemed like a reminder of what the category of the show is. Wanted to look away, but kept watching when the worm came up Cole's throat. The electrical shocks were tougher to watch than in season 6. What's your take on the gore level? Kudo to the makeup and SPX departments.