I have to get this out of the way right off the bat - the first half of “About A Boy” was flawless! Dylan Everett’s performance was simply outstanding. His portrayal of TeenDean was completely convincing, with mannerisms, voice inflections and facial expressions that perfectly reflected Jensen’s interpretation of Dean. Jared’s interactions with Dylan, or rather Sam’s interactions with TeenDean, were equally noteworthy.

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Every time I take Jared or Jensen’s superb performances for granted, they do something to remind me how much attention they pay to every line, every scene, every day.

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It might be sacrilege to say this, but I believe that Jared’s very best performances often occur in scenes that don’t include Jensen. It’s as if Jared notches it up a bit (which is saying something by itself) because he knows he has to carry the scene. His sincere acceptance of Dylan sold Dean’s transformation, and Jared’s initial reactions to seeing and accepting TeenDean were hilarious!

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Jared has excellent comedic timing! As far as I’m concerned, their partnership stole the show.

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Redemption

The episode started out very strong. The music that followed the flashback montage was engaging, fitting and prophetic:

Ashes, the Rain and I by The James Gang (Joe Walsh)

Sometimes I sit and I stare at the rain
Isn't rain filled with sorrow?
Wonder if I'll see my home again
Will it be dry tomorrow?

Time passes softly and I'm a day older
But still I'm living days gone by
Ashes to ashes, the rain's turning colder
Finding tomorrow, the ashes, the rain & I

-          Joe Walsh - Ashes The Rain And I Lyrics | MetroLyrics

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Dean is lost, worried and scared. He’s trying to find a way to push through the fear and despair to fight for tomorrow. Perhaps he is longing for “days gone by”? Curious, since he would soon be 14 years old again. This was perfect music to set the tone of the story and the subsequent poignant conversation between the brothers:
Sam: Look, I know you’re worried about the Mark.

Dean: Yes, Sam, I am. Between what I did with Charlie…

Sam: Charlie forgave you. How about you forgive yourself?

Dean: Because I’m not exactly batting 1000 here, you know?

Sam: Yeah, I do know that, but staying locked up in here, sitting on the ground, reading the same lore books over and over again – it’s not helping you. You need to get back in the game, for your own good. You can beat this, Dean.

Dean: You really believe that?

Sam: Yeah, you’re damn right I believe that.
Sam has more faith in Dean than Dean has in himself.

That has always been the case, though.  In “Point of No Return”, when Dean gave up hope and surrendered to the apocalypse, Sam’s unwavering belief in his older brother gave Dean a reason to continue fighting. Dean confessed he only found his will because he didn’t want to let Sam down. How many times in the past few weeks has Sam again been the reassuring voice? “You can do this. We can do this.” was the closing line in “There’s No Place Like Home”. In “About A Boy”, when Dean’s faith in himself was so low that he was afraid to even leave his room, Sam told him “You’re damn right I believe [you can beat this]”. The anecdote about Sam believing in the Easter bunny established a life-long pattern of Sam holding out hope against reason. He has always seen “the light at the end of the tunnel”. He has always kept them going with his faith. Dean again heard and felt Sam’s undying faith and, using the hope that Sam offered, Dean picked himself up off the metaphorical floor and found the strength to face down the MoC again. At the bar, Dean said “Screw it. I’m going to believe in myself”. That’s not quite forgiving himself, but maybe it’s a start.

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At our lowest points in life, it often takes someone believing in us to keep us going. We know we’ve brought ruin upon ourselves and we’ve hurt people we love. We’re afraid to move in any direction because we’ve chosen the wrong direction so many times we believe that’s all we’re capable of doing anymore. Dean is in that place and Sam is giving him the steadfast love and support he needs.

A moment in “Theres No Place Like Home” really struck me last week. I didn’t comment on it at the time because it wasn’t immediately relevant to the story. Remember when Charlie and Dean were talking at the end of their ordeal? Dean was embarrassed and ashamed of himself, but Charlie wanted to forgive him. Dean, clearly horrified by what he had done, apologized to Charlie. That was a very important and powerful conversation, but what was interesting to me was that Sam kept his distance the whole time. I was struck how Sam recognized that, as an adult, Dean needed to take responsibility for what he had done. Sam didn’t try to make excuses for Dean’s actions, or jump in to make Dean feel better, saying “it wasn’t you, it was the Mark”. Sam respected Dean enough to let Dean own whatever he was feeling at that moment, even if those feelings were shame and sorrow. Sam was present for support, but he didn’t interfere with either Dean or Charlie expressing what they felt. He gave them the space and the time they needed to process their emotions. Sam’s wisdom and emotional maturity in that moment was striking. His presence gave both of them support and strength because they knew he understood and would help if asked, but he respected that they needed to work this out for themselves.

Even though it hasn’t yet been specifically referenced, Sam’s empathy to Dean may be grounded by his own memories of what it is like to be fighting for your life, battling guilt, low self-esteem and insurmountable odds against an evil that wants your soul. The turning point for Sam happened in “Swan Song”, when Dean was simply present for Sam, as Sam battled Satan. Dean kept repeating, I’m here. I’m not going to leave you.” Dean wouldn’t abandon Sam, assuring him they were together until the end. Dean didn’t say “I believe in you”. He didn’t say “You can do this. Keep fighting.” He simply said I’m here. I’m not going anywhere. You are not alone. Dean’s role in their brotherhood is being present. He may not always know what to do, but he knows how to show up, ready for action. Sam’s part of the partnership is believing they can prevail together. He has enough faith for both of them.

Monsters...and their Families

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As Sam and TeenDean drove back to the witch’s cottage, TeenDean admitted that he was tempted to stay young in order to avoid the return of the Mark.  His words betrayed the enormity of the battle he was fighting and revealed how he views himself:
Dean: “If it’s between being a psycho, rage monster/borderline demon or a teenager… "
Sam: "Really?"

Dean’s self-identification as a “monster” reiterates this season’s study of humans as monsters, and their families’ fight to save them from succumbing to the overwhelming temptations and power of the supernatural. The unwavering support from his family is helping Dean find the strength to survive the supernatural force overtaking him.

The MoC…and Redemption

I mentioned that I considered the first half of the episode to be flawless. I was completely mesmerized by the acting, the story and its messages up to the point when the mismatched brothers found the witch’s cottage. I’ll admit that I wasn’t crazy about the choice to use the Hansel and Gretel fable.

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It felt a little outlandish and perilously close to being a “Once Upon A Time” or “Grimm” storyline. A generic witch with a modus operandi of killing children could have been dispatched to chase Rowena. That would have been more consistent with Supernatural’s dark, serious, testosterone-laced hunting tone. Still, Adam Glass gets points for tying the hunt into an ancient “urban legend” i.e. fable, and we previously had a story about fairy tales that come to life, so there was a precedent for this premise within the series. Considering it would be hard to be completely dark when asked to accept a body swap, fountain of youth assertion, the fable plot line got a pass based on artistic license and Supernatural’s creative history.

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Where the story lost me was when Sam’s move to escape was completely ineffective, and 14 year old Dean had to save them all. I was infuriated. I mean really livid. I would have been fine if Sam would have used his back pocket knife to kill Hansel. Then being overpowered by the witch (which was reasonable considering her age and power) would have given Dean the time he needed to grab the kitchen knife, the hex bag (from Hansel’s corpse), and shove the witch in the proverbial oven. Each brother would have had an equal part in the rescue and the outcome would have been the same.  Why would the writers portray Sam as utterly incompetent and less capable than a teenager?

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My reaction surprised me, because I don’t keep track of how many times Sam gets knocked unconscious, or how many times Dean gets tied up. I don’t get defensive or possessive of one brother over the other, but this lit me up like a firecracker and completely pulled me out of the story. I was so appalled at Sam’s treatment that I broke the ending down into its individual components to consider why it would have been written this way. First, my proposed alternate ending would have been viable, so Sam’s uselessness has now, officially, become a chronic problem. Next, Dean couldn’t stay young for obvious reasons. Even within the story, TeenDean would not have been capable of physically overpowering the witch. He, Sam and Tina would all have become stew and Dean’s ideal solution to the Mark would have simply ended his life, so there was no choice but to return Dean to adulthood.  Now the last part. Dean saved Sam. That was intentional. Why was it so important for Dean to sacrifice himself to save Sam…again? The importance of this outcome was noticeably reiterated in Sam’s epilogue:  
Dean: “Look I know what you’re going say, OK? But you were in deep and..."

Sam: “I know, you saved me, and you saved Tina. You pulled a ‘Dean Winchester’. Thank you."

Dean: “Anytime.”

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Sam went so far as to name the act of sacrificing yourself to save others against impossible odds a “Dean Winchester”.  If we are dispassionately looking for clues to what’s important, then my attention is drawn to elevating this outcome to being so common, in character and expected that it’s given a label. Dean would do anything, anything for his brother. He gave up his chance to be rid of the MoC, and to get a clean slate, a virgin liver and a second chance on life for his brother. Last season he risked sacrificing his brother’s love in order to save his brother’s life. The conversation in the bar about how he spent his childhood caring for Sam just reminded us how much of Dean’s life has been defined by taking care of his brother. Why was it so important to make the climax of this story revolve around this point?  I have to conclude that this is adding weight to a long history of choices that will be relevant to the climax of the season.

I have theorized that Dean forgiving himself is the only way he will control the mark. His self-hatred and rage fuel the mark, so only acceptance and self-compassion will neutralize it, or cut off its fuel source. Cain’s promise to Colette to stop killing motivated him to live a solitary, quiet, peaceful life. Similarly, following Dean’s attack on Charlie and her challenge to “prove” his repentance, Dean also withdrew from society. He locked himself up in his room, apart even from Sam. It is unclear if this would have worked in the long term for Dean, though. Sam certainly didn’t think so. Charlie was not the center of Dean’s life, as Colette was to Cain. Only something happening to Sam would parallel the trauma experienced by Cain. Is the key to Dean’s total redemption then, i.e. getting rid of the Mark, an apology to Sam and a request for forgiveness? I think that would certainly help and might neutralize the Mark’s power, and, like Cain, allow Dean to live a prolonged period of time, as long as Dean stayed away from the temptations of violence. In other words, Dean could probably peacefully co-exist with the Mark if he retired and took up beekeeping.

What must Dean do to remove the Mark entirely, though?  Cain wasn’t able to get rid of the Mark, despite trying everything including killing himself. He never asked for Abel’s forgiveness, though, nor did he ever feel he made the wrong decision in killing Abel. Maybe Cain still bears the Mark because he still bears the “sin” of his brother’s death. The climax of Cain’s life was killing his brother. That was what made him a demon. Could the climax of the Mark, which is patterned and named after Cain, be again causing someone to kill their brother? Is the Mark’s “curse” more than just escalating violence? Could the Mark’s express purpose be to cause a brother to kill a brother? If so, then the climax of Dean’s struggle with the MoC will be the Mark trying to force Dean to kill Sam. Njspnfan theorized in a “Threads” commentary that perhaps the Mark’s curse would only be broken by its bearer having the strength, presence of mind and will to stop himself from killing his brother.

I think this episode’s emphasis on Sam’s undying faith and being the center of Dean’s life supports this theory. Bookdal and I had a long conversation in which she pointed out all the parallels between Sam’s "Swan Song" and Dean’s Mark of Cain. Pure evil, in the form of Lucifer, had successfully gained possession of Sam’s soul. It was driving him to mercilessly beat Dean to death. Lucifer’s hold over Sam was broken, though, by Dean sticking by his brother to the end. Sam is now doing the same for Dean. He has professed his faith in Dean repeatedly.
Sam: “look, man, do I wish the mark was gone? Yes, Of course. Absolutely I do but I wanted you back and now here you are and you didn’t hulk out so I’ll take the win. As for the rest of it, the Mark, everything else, we’ll figure it out. We always do.”

Dean: "Damn right."

Sam’s hope is getting through to Dean. Dean believes in himself again, because saving Sam reminded him of who he was and enabled him to do the two things he lives to do – save people and take care of Sam. The message of this episode was that Sam wanted Dean back, with all his flaws and the MoC and whatever other baggage Dean has (i.e. Sam has forgiven Dean?); and that Dean’s first priority, even above himself, is protecting Sam.

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When Dean defended his choice to Sam, he didn’t say “I had to save the girl”, or “I had to kill the witch” or “I had to finish the job”. He specifically said, “you were in deep”. Dean’s first and strongest instinct will always be to save Sam. That, that, is why time after time the message is being driven home that Dean must always save Sam. In the end, that instinct will break the curse. In “Swan Song”, Sam regained control of himself, in essence was saved, by Dean’s presence at the pit. Equally, I now believe that Dean will regain his soul because of Sam’s faith in him. Until his last breath, Sam will keep saying “I believe in you. You can beat this Dean.” The story will come full circle, and Sam will save Dean.

So…

In the end, I have decided that “About A Boy” was ok because I believe it further established how Dean is going to get rid of the Mark. I will hold onto the breathtaking performance of TeenDean, the hilarious and convincing reactions of Sam, the touching revelations of what Dean thinks of himself, and the melting expressions of honesty and mutual support between the brothers.

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For so very long, I have waited for them to be honest with each other. Sam admitted he wanted Dean back. Dean asked for and then accepted his brother’s faith in him….and I’m fairly certain on rewatch, I saw Sam kill Hansel. ; ).

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I’ll take the win.

Curiosities

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Dean: “I’m back Baby”…but was he really? He liked Taylor Swift! He let teen pop music play in the Impala! More than a heresy – maybe that was a sign that Dean can change. I have a much larger theory that the song and the constant presence of teenagers this season is a targeted redirection of the show to a younger demographic, but I’ll leave that story for another day.

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When Dean downed the shot of whiskey at the bar, we heard the telltale heartbeat that usually indicates the Mark is rearing up. Dean immediately clutched his arm, as if drinking weakened him and gave the Mark strength. Alcohol is a vice but I haven’t before observed that all vices bring Dean closer to being a demon. It was a nod to Dean’s attempted puritanism last week to control the Mark, and I appreciate the continuity, but I didn't previously interpret vices as tools of the Mark. I presumed self-restraint was the point, not the vices themselves. Should we revise our MoC traits, then? Theories?

So, what do you think of Sam’s eternal hope and Dean’s eternal protection combining to defeat the Mark? Do you think forgiveness is the key, or will it come down to the final battle between brothers? Was that the moral of this fable for you?

Comments  

NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-05 21:35
You prolific little witch. WELL DONE cher :D:);)
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 10:48
Thanks so much! I always worry when I go all out on a theory. I promised myself I wouldn't look at comments last night after I posted the article (around 8pm my time) so I could gear down before going to bed...but I had to peek! I saw your comment and was able to relax for the night! Thanks for reading it so quickly and letting me know you liked it!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-02-05 21:56
nightsky,

I have been saying this for months now....:D glad you see it too.;)
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 10:52
I know we've bounced around the idea that the Cain/Abel story meant a possible Dean/Sam showdown, but had you speculated what would break the curse? I would be happy to share the credit if I missed that! I'd love the company on this ship I've sailed!
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2015-02-05 22:42
Once again, I enjoyed reading how you put things together. I saw Sam's believing in the Easter bunny in much the same way. He has always been a man of faith. He believed because Dean said it was true so he was really holding onto faith in Dean.
On the other hand, I did not find as much enjoyment in the first part of the episode as you did. Although teen-Dean was great, I so enjoy J2 that when it's not one or the other it just doesn't seem right, and 15 minutes of just teenagers was a bit much.
And, yes, Sam being the head-trauma case in distress is getting a bit old now, but at least he wasn't tied up: bondage can be interesting but it's so one sided.
Thanks!
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-06 07:30
Quote:
I saw Sam's believing in the Easter bunny in much the same way. He has always been a man of faith. He believed because Dean said it was true so he was really holding onto faith in Dean.
I hope that that was not the intention of the scene because to me it would come across as further ruining the memory and the meaning of Sam having given the amulet to Dean.

3.08 A Very Supernatural Christmas

Sam: But Dad said the monsters under my bed weren’t real.
Dean: That’s ’cause he had already checked under there. But yeah, they’re real. Almost everything’s real.
Sam: Is Santa real?
Dean: (Smiles, shakes his head) No.

Sam: Here, take this.
Dean: No. No, that’s for Dad.
Sam: Dad lied to me. I want you to have it.


PS. Thank you for replying to my question earlier. :)
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2015-02-06 14:12
I absolutely see your point. I chose to see it as a representation of Sam's faith, but I also need to make assumptions about the story surrounding it. Say Dean felt bad that he spoiled Santa and therefore decided to lie about the E.Bunny. This is certainly not OOC for Dean, as he obviously lied a lot to Sam (according to AG he even lied about getting lost on a hunt and thought nothing of it). I'm not saying I like having to wiggle around the canon to try to figure things out and feel ok with them, but so long as I can make some logical sense out of it, I will try. And, I am aware that not everyone agrees with my wiggles.

Honestly Sam's faith in Dean mirrors Dean's faith in his father - It's just there, even at times when it shouldn't be. I think there are a number of ways to see this and one is just that the writers wanted a funny anecdote (like the Grand Canyon) and threw in a bunny tale. Sure, it goes against the "Sam never had a childhood" story but it's funny. It is likely we'll never hear of it again (like the Grand Canyon) which would be fine with me.
It could also be that this "faith" in Dean or late belief in big bunnies has a purpose in the larger story. However, I'm not holding my breath.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-06 19:04
Dean didn’t try to indulge Sam when he told Sam the truth that Christmas Eve even if it had been easier to lie that something good like Santa is real too to offset having to tell his little brother that almost all of the bad things are real.

10x12 - About a Boy

Sam: --- --- You can beat this, Dean.
Dean: Do you really believe that?
Sam: Yeah, you're damn right I believe that.
Dean: You know, you also believed in the Easter Bunny till you were 12.
Sam: No, I didn't. Look, I was 11.
Dean: And a half.
Sam: And a half. Right. --- ---


The context of the scene and Dean’s tone gives me the impression that Sam had wanted to believe in something as fantastical as the Easter Bunny even though Dean hadn’t been encouraging him and Sam hadn’t been a little kid anymore.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 10:54
Quote:
15 minutes of just teenagers was a bit much.
I'm seeing more and more evidence this season that the show is trying to court a younger audience. I am considering doing an article just on this topic (during some hiatus!).
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-02-06 18:30
My husband doesn't comment here but I asked him to write his opinion about the last scene.

Quote:
I think the episode ending in Shake it Off is a symbol of change in Dean's attitude. Being transformed to a teenager without the mark obviously affected Dean in positive way. Yet he sacrificed his youth to save other people. I think this means that Dean has done what Charlie and Sam told him to do; he forgave himself.
So, he saw the song as "positive energy" and not heavy rock and roll that he usually listens. And also Teen!Dean heard it in the buss and liked it. Hell, even I like some music from my teenage days that I would not probably like if I heard it for the first time now. I see him loosening up a bit. ;)

In any case I saw that scene hilarious and Sam's face was huuuuuge WTF. :D

- Lilah
DeansRaven
# DeansRaven 2015-02-06 00:59
I think the thing that has been most commonly and consistently forgotten in all of this is what Cain himself said about killing Abel. His brother had been tainted, corrupted by Lucifer, and Cain killed Abel to save his soul from Hell, ultimately. He killed his brother out of love, to protect him.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-06 01:22
We ARE the only one's who remember. Thanks for saying it.:)
Lena
# Lena 2015-02-06 05:46
That's the version Cain told Dean. We don't know if it's true. And besides there is absolutley no justification for murder because it's supposedly "out of love". The whole "out of love" and "to protect" concept in the context of murder is horrible in my eyes.
amyh
# amyh 2015-02-06 12:48
Why is Able becoming Lucifers lapdog so much worse then Caine becoming a demon and Lucifers #1 killer? This really doesn't track.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 00:16
Yes, exactly. If you take Cain's story at face value he just looks like a gullible idiot. And if you think he is not telling the truth then he WANTED to kill his brother and he needed an excuse. It resulted in him causing WAY more damage than Abel possibiy could have - and for what? How come Lucifer has the keys of heaven? How does Cain know where Abel ended up? CROWLEY could be Abel if Lucifer lied and actually sent Abel to hell and Abel turned demon and worked his way up the ranks. The story has to be nonsense. Either way it doesn't look good.

Or a different angle:
If you look at the transcript:
Quote:
Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in hell. Lucifer accepted... As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier of Hell -- a knight.
Cain did all of it. Lucifer just whispered in his ear. Both inventing the problem and the solution. I asked how come Lucifer had the ability to make a deal to send Abel to heaven. He DIDN'T. Abel hadn't done anything wrong, so when Cain killed him his soul went to heaven automatically. Lucifer told Cain it was a deal but it was just the natural course of events - and it proves that Abel wasn't corrupted.
I wonder does Cain realize now that he was fooled all those years ago?
kaj
# kaj 2015-02-08 02:54
Hi, I'm interested with your theory. So, maybe there another story behind that. Maybe Abel was really talking to God but Lucifer whispered in his ear that Abel is actually talking to him and was being corrupted by him. It was actually Cain who was corrupted but his version is not out of malice, not because he's jealous of Abel but because he's too naive to see Lucifer's machinations. Road to Hell is paved by good intention and all that. In this context I'm referring Cain's situation like Sam in season 4. Sam thought he's helping Dean, avenging what had happened to his big brother in Hell by killing Lilith. In doing so, he listened to Ruby's lies and blind of her machinations. So what, now Sam = Cain , Dean = Abel ? That's a curious thought. All the while we all referring Cain to Dean because of their similarities in personality.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-08 13:35
Hi Kaj, well I think that it has already been pretty much concluded that in Season 4 Sam did a whole lot of stuff because he thought he was doing the right thing because Ruby (Lucifer's lieutenant) was whispering in his ear. She, and Castiel's bosses through Castiel (and in the end Castiel himself) and Lilith also fooled everyone else - all of them working towards Sam's destruction. So yes it was a similar situation but on top of that it was also a giant conspiracy. I don't think the parallel is as tight as it is in the current storyline.
If there is a direct comparison to be made (and considering that JC (!) seems to believe that there is a BC and AD to the show with year 1 of AD being the start of Season 8 it would be surprising if he went back to the 'old testament' for a comparative storyline.) it really has to be the Cain storyline I think, and that makes it Dean believing he needs to take on the mark (because of reasons) and then as it slowly drives him mad and back to being a demon again (and who doesn't believe that that is where the story is going?) someone, maybe Crowley, maybe Cain, maybe even his own monsters which we have seen already in the first cure, is going to drive him to trying to kill his brother.
If there is some reason and parallel for the Colette story (which I sort of hope there isn't) then it ought to be Castiel as the brother he tries to kill for presumed villainy and Sam, shown as the soulmate we already know he is in canon, who stops him / brings him back.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-06 07:34
Quote:
His brother had been tainted, corrupted by Lucifer, and Cain killed Abel to save his soul from Hell, ultimately. He killed his brother out of love, to protect him.
Cain said, “Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in hell. Lucifer accepted... As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier of Hell -- a knight.”

Abel hadn’t been corrupted. In Cain’s opinion, Abel was gonna become Lucifer’s pet. So Cain killed his brother because Cain couldn’t bear the situation. I don’t think that Cain had the right to rule over Abel’s life and death.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 08:57
How did I not see your reply before I posted just the same thing? :P It isn't like it is far away or anything...
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2015-02-06 09:02
I have to take exception to the statement that he killed his brother to protect him. How is that protecting him? He had no right to make that decision for someone else. If a family member of yours was going down the path to drugs, would it be okay for you to kill them? I find this statement awful in the extreme. No one has the right to dictate how someone else lives their lives as long as they are only hurting themselves and no one else.
Dean did the same thing to Sam by tricking him into possession. It was something he had no right to do.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-07 05:47
And we're taking Cain's word on this, the Father of Murder? Not the most trustworthy of sources if you ask me.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-06 05:14
On my second watch of this episode I absolutely loved it. I do agree somewhat about Sam being rendered a damsel in distress again but I think after the mess Dean made of Charlie's (and Claire's) rescue he really needed to make this save. I think he needed to feel like the hero/hunter he was before the Mark. And he was an adult Dean (with magic expanding pants) when he killed Hansel and the witch. Dean's confidence has taken a big hit. Sam's faith in him is one thing but Dean needs to have that faith as well. That was my take anyway. Dean will always choose Sam over himself every time we know that but I never get tired of seeing it (guilty pleasure).
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 10:59
Quote:
after the mess Dean made of Charlie's (and Claire's) rescue he really needed to make this save.
That's a good point. Dean "saving the day" is probably exactly what he needed and significantly added to his uplifted confidence and mood at the end. It may have been bad luck that Adam's episode was inserted after a series of episodes where Sam got knocked out or tied up. The white board in the writer's room needs a chart where they keep track and even it up a bit! (I volunteer!)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-06 13:01
I volunteer you too.:)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-02-06 15:14
Perhaps sam wasnt as bad off as he made it seem, maybe sam too thought that dean needed the save...just saying;)
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-02-06 15:27
So Sam was willing to let Tina die, Sam die and Dean die just to bolster Dean's self-esteem? He lay around on the the floor while Hansel beat Dean to within an inch of Dean's life knowing that at the time Dean didn't have the Hex bag and therefore was allowing a 14 year old to fight a grown man who was twice his weight and several inches taller? He did noting so he could force Dean to to grab the hex bag and return to an adult which meant Dean is subject to the MOC again and become controlled by supernatural forces? What you are describing isn't helping Dean, it's being psychotic and frankly evil. I mean yes, now we can all say that from here on out it is Sam's fault Dean has the MOC and any evil Dean does is on Sam because Sam is a wimp, a bad hunter and a completely useless on a hunt. But saying Sam deliberately let the situation happen is stretching it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-06 15:52
I think Sugar was kidding.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-02-06 15:58
If I misunderstood I apologize.
Lena
# Lena 2015-02-06 06:05
Nightsky,

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said about this episode, especially about the parallels to "Point of no Return" and "Swan Song" and your thoughts of how Dean maybe can get rid of the mark. Unlike you I didn't get infuriated when Sam once again was knocked out, but that's because I'm already numb and resigned in that regard (and that is sad in itself), because otherwise I would have to scream nearly each episode about what had happened to the formerley "second best hunter in the world" :(:(:(

Thanks for your great article and for sharing your thoughts with us.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 11:00
You're welcome!
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-06 06:50
Quote:
Is the key to Dean’s total redemption then, i.e. getting rid of the Mark, an apology to Sam and a request for forgiveness? I think that would certainly help and might neutralize the Mark’s power, and, like Cain, allow Dean to live a prolonged period of time, as long as Dean stayed away from the temptations of violence. In other words, Dean could probably peacefully co-exist with the Mark if he retired and took up beekeeping.
Sorry I have to disagree with you on that one. Asking Sam's forgiveness after having obviously beating himself up about everything will do nothing to show Dean has accepted himself as it will not mean he has truly forgiven himself and moved on. It will just show that he still views his self worth through the prism of others and not that he is willing to grab hold of a possible second chance. Like it or not that is what low self worth kind of does for you. To fix hers, Tina had to leave after finding out she was stuck in a 14 year old body, so say asking her three ex husbands for forgiveness or paying off her debt wouldn't have worked for her.

It didn't work when Charlie forgave him it won't work if he asks Sam too.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 12:41
I agree with you in one regard - Sam's forgiveness will not change Dean's mind about himself. Everyone's opinion of themselves has to come from within, but it is still greatly influenced by the opinion of those around us. Part of the real 12-step program to rebuild lives after an addiction is to take responsibility for any harm you may have caused, ask forgiveness and make reparations before moving on. I think Dean would only be able to say "I couldn't make any other decision. I still don't know that I would do things differently, but I sincerely regret all the pain it cause you, Kevin, etc." That would at least be acknowledging that there was a down side to keeping Sam alive.
Sam's forgiveness will, though, let Dean know that Sam understands Dean's actions and that he isn't mad at Dean anymore. The only conversation we've seen about the whole possession decision was that fiasco in the bunker kitchen. Was that when Sam said that Dean did it so he wouldn't have to be alone? Sam couldn't allow himself to believe at that time that Dean also did it to save Sam's life because Dean believes Sam is worth saving. With Sam's admission now that he wanted Dean back, and with him having to live however many weeks or months believing Dean was dead, I think Sam is ready to accept that Dean's motivations were more complex than simple fear of being alone. Dean is the only one who can forgive himself and move on, but knowing he hasn't irreparably damaged his relationship with Sam will go a long way to reducing the size of the lump he has to swallow.
Prix68
# Prix68 2015-02-06 08:11
I agree with Fazzie on this point. Dean must forgive himself. That is what Sam said to Dean when he was in his room. Charlie forgave him so he needed to forgive himself. Retiring and becoming a beekeeper!? That would certainly be an end to the show that I never considered before. Lol.

Colette knew who Cain was and did and still loved him unconditionally and had faith in his ability to change and control the MOC. Sam is in essence doing the same for Dean. Cain wanted Abbadon killed but had promised Colette he wouldn't do it so he got his revenge for Abbadon killing Colette by giving the mark to Dean who would do the job for him. Technically keeping his promise.

While I understand the unhappiness of people with Sam's characterizatio n since JC took over (I don't care for it myself) I don't think the solution is for Dean to apologize to Sam and ask for forgiveness. The solution is better writing that shows Sam being stronger and more competent, as he was portrayed in the beginning of the episode and the end after Tina got on the bus. At this point Sam's faith in Dean and belief they can solve the problem is all that is holding Dean together. Even though Sam must surely have his doubts about Dean, he is using his strength of character and his faith in both himself and Dean to keep them both going. JMO.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-06 10:01
Hello, thankyou for agreeing with me.

I agree with you about Colette and Cain, it was acceptance of who he was made him able to accept the darkness within himself and I think that is kind of what Dean has to do, accept his own nature as his own and not as something to fear and he can then forgive himself. Because there are points where I think that he doesn't feel he can accept himself because everyone he cares about has told him at some point that they aren't happy about what he has done to save them so to him they are saying they don't accept him as he is, so there is something wrong with him. I'm not saying he is right but that is the way it comes across to him and would play into his self esteem issues.

Maybe that is going to be what Sam can do support wise at some point, not tell Dean to forgive himself (even though I got Sam's frustration) but to tell Dean explicitly that he accepts and relies on his brother as is, that Dean is the Dean he needs not some perfect version that Dean tries to force himself to be. I'm saying that because for Sam to even put on the front of believing in the Easter Bunny until 11, someone had to hide those eggs and I'm guessing it wasn't John. But that wasn't really Dean's job, but he probably needed to do it because it gave him as much self worth to see Sam happy hunting those eggs as much as having Sam say that marshmallow mix and mac and cheese was exotic even if he thought it was rank. But he is still in someways being relied on to do it, not just for Sam but for Cas too. He pulled a Dean WInchester for Sam because Sam needed and who still does Cas go to fix things - Dean. He asked Dean to talk to Claire after Dean killed Randy even though common sense tells you Dean would be the last person Claire would want to talk to.

Sam himself kind of half said it, that he wanted Dean back, not teenage Dean but his Dean. Even though teenage Dean would be free of the mark which in some ways would allow Dean a second chance at things, Sam wanted Dean back.

It is half way there as saying he accepts Dean as he is and I think will do more good than Dean apologising to Dean as it would give Sam more of a POV and storyline than simply being there to 'forgive' Dean.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 12:50
Very well said!
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 12:47
Quote:
While I understand the unhappiness of people with Sam's characterization since JC took over (I don't care for it myself) I don't think the solution is for Dean to apologize to Sam and ask for forgiveness. The solution is better writing that shows Sam being stronger and more competent
I see these as two separate things. The writing about Sam really has to improve, no matter what happens to Dean's storyline. Sam was a great hunter. This latest nonsense is insulting. That's Sam's character arc. Separately, Dean's arc will show character growth for Dean if he sees there were down sides to his actions and he forgives himself for what happened.
Prix68
# Prix68 2015-02-06 14:37
I was actually trying to say something similar but I guess I wasn't clear. A lot of comments believe that if Dean apologizes and asks for forgiveness from Sam for the possession by Gadreel, that that will help him control the MOC. I think what Dean is feeling now is guilt over what the MOC has and is making him do, not over the posession. Dean already stated in "The Purge" speech that he may regret and feel guilt that things went sideways in ways he didn't foresee but he won't apologize for keeping Sam alive. We were left in the finale with Sam seeming to have moved past the posession as well. That the show never explored this more or gave Dean the chance to fully apologize or Sam to express how that effected him was poor writing for both characters but especially Sam. My point is the show seems to have moved past that. Sam seems to have moved past that in the show. The poor writing for Sam IS a separate issue and I believe JC feels the possession issue was solved in the finale last year. He sees the boys as being in a good place in their relationship this year. What I believe Sam was telling Dean was to forgive himself for not being able to control the mark by himself. Not being strong enough to do it alone and that he, Sam, was there to help and had faith that together they could solve this.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-06 15:16
I get what you are saying. I too think that JC feels like a lot of the possession issue is over with, however I think a lot of the audience (as seen by the comments here) don't. Also the MOC was taken in response to Dean being low after what happened so really isn't.

But saying that he said the boys were in a good place at the end of season 8 but the beginning of season 9 with a Sam willing to die after saying he'd try to live kind of brings that really into question. Were the boys truly on the same page?

Personnally, I think that if Dean apologises for anything right now before getting to a point of self acceptance then the apology will mean nothing, he won't be forgiving himself and moving on he will be asking permission to function in Sam's world while holding on to his pain and nothing will have matured in the relationship. Also if Dean apologises and Sam says nothing about what he said in the purge speech after slowly acting like he has reached some understanding of Dean's actions then JC will be openly saying he is paying fanservice which will kill the story and cut the legs out of any growth Sam has gotten this season about being a supportive brother.
Prix68
# Prix68 2015-02-06 16:18
Unfortunately I think JC and the writers are patting themselves on the back and thinking they are doing a super job. They have respectable ratings and an early renewal for S11. I don't think at this point they feel the pressure to change any of the dynamics in the show. JC just seems to go in whatever direction he feels like.at the moment. I read an interview where when JC was asked if he had a plan for where the DD sl was going when he wrote it he actually said no, but not knowing what to do with it wasn't going to stop him from writing it. Doing something that epic to a major character I would think would involve some more thought then that from the showrunner. So, I'm guessing that the possession sl has been left behind and he considers it over as far as Sam and Dean are concerned. That's how it seems to me this season, at least. Even if the show ends next year, JC has the win for keeping it going for 4 more years.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 17:50
I get it now. I agree.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 08:10
I agree that JC is going in whatever fancy he wants but I think there is also a large element of him thinking things are settled and they aren't in the audience's mind. But even though it maybe a somewhat realistic job considering the nature of the boys a wouldn't say it is a super one in terms of audience.

Take season 8, he said the boys are on the same page - sure Dean says and proves that Sam over everything is his stone one as he leaves Cas to talk Sam down, Sam lets go of the trials but in the next episode he is willing to die and people complain about Dean allowing the possession. Well Dean has just reinforced everything he said at the end of season 8 but there is a slight disconnect with Sam being prepared to die and then saying yes to Dean. The only closure we got was - a 'I lied'. Sure Dean accepted that but for everyone watching they want a bit more.

But as you said a 4 year run is a huge win for any showrunner so he can be content at that. Though have you noticed that the CW has renewed almost all shows this year.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-07 12:08
...and "I lied" was not in the script! Jared added it because he said he knew fans neede that closure!
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 12:40
Wasn't the line originally something along the lines of Sam saying that he thought he would have been alright with Dean dying but on seeing it he wasn't?

If so and they had kept that it would have gone down like a lead balloon.
PradiseHeat
# PradiseHeat 2015-02-07 17:08
Actually I think the line was something like 'I dont know this would happen' which IMO would have been better as it tied in more with where Sam is now. Sam now realizes how far he himself would go to save Dean, he isnt the Sam of seasons past where he saw the bigger picture and would let Dean go if it meant saving more people. He is now at a point where his thinking is aligned with Dean's-they pick each other over everything no matter the cost/consequenc es. The 'I lied' line changed the story to not make sense for me.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-08 12:44
Yes that whole end to the seasons storyline was a damp squib to me. It didn't seem to make much sense since all it did was have Sam say out loud stuff we knew since the pilot - Sam knows that there is a bigger picture to save the world but when push comes to shove, for Sam, Dean comes first. You can leave out all of Season 8 and all of Season 9 and there is absolutely no surprise to Sam saying he would do anything to save Dean. You can listen to Sam talking in the Purge and know what he is saying and that it isn't contradicted by the finale. If the show had started with its pilot in Season 8 then there might be some sense of a story being told satisfyingly ... possibly ... but it didn't and so here we are with 'I lied' being a 'quote of the season' for Season 9. :o
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 15:22
This x2000!
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-02-06 08:24
Very nice review. I agree for the most part. We all understand why Dean had to choose to save Sam because he obviously couldn't stay a teenager, for multiple reasons. But I stated in one of the previous reviews that it would have been so simple to end up in the same place without having Sam be the damsel in distress. Sam could have been the one who managed to get the hex bag after being knocked down, but NOT incapacitated, and he and Dean could have a silent conversation across the room about him changing back to adult Dean, which I'm sure Dylan and Jared could have pulled off with no problem, before Sam tossing the bag to him or something like that. Same result, no weak looking hunter Sam having to be saved by teenage Dean. Them making the decision together. My only hope, as you said, is that they are leading to something GOOD with all this. I'm all for Dean seeking forgiveness and forgiving himself and coming out on the other side of this as a healthier person, but if all Sam ends up doing is standing around cheerleading and on the end of Dean's knife or having to be saved again and again to get the point across, then I really wont be happy.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-06 08:52
NightSky - wow - I was quoted in Alice's review as well; time to quit while ahead :)

Nice review and spin on the episode; I won't comment again on the episode, though I did enjoy it more after watching it again. But I do like where you're going with this thread/theory, and agree with the parallels drawn between faith, this story arc, and Swan Song.

Cain and Abel - we've only got his side of the story. He is, after all, the Father of Murder and there's no one left to refute his version of events. If Cain's version is true, maybe Abel could have resisted Lucifer; we'll never know. Ultimately, it was Cain's lack of faith in Abel, his brother, that led him to take the actions he did. This is why I'm hoping they do introduce Abel at some point in the second half of S10; to get the whole story.

As far as apologies go, I think it's going to ultimately boil down to Dean having to truly forgive himself. Sam has already forgiven him, and already knows Dean is sorry for everything that transpired after the angel possession (except for the part about saving Sam).

This all ties in to the Free Will vs. Destiny theme that has played out over the course of Supernatural. Michael and Lucifer. Cain and Abel. Dean and Sam Winchester. God had Michael, the older brother, cast Lucifer, the younger brother, in to hell; what if Michael had some faith in Lucifer and told God no instead? Would things have played out differently? The Apocalype - Michael stated it was his destiny to kill Lucifer; Sam and Dean had other plans. Cain, the older brother, made a deal with Lucifer and killed Abel, the younger brother, to "save him". What if Cain said no and showed some faith in Abel instead?

Finally, as far as faith goes, the younger brother Sam's faith in Dean has been unwavering. The same cannot be said for the older brother Dean's faith in Sam. Maybe this is part of the maturing brother's relationship that Jeremy Carver has discussed, Dean ultimately showing the same faith in Sam that Sam has in Dean?

On a completely different tangent, I had DVR'd, and was rewatching some episodes from S8 recently (gotta love those TNT marathons). Was watching Goodbye Stranger, with Dean cataloging some items in the MoL bunker. One of the items turned out to be the key to Oz; the other item they took the time to mention was the "Spear of Destiny". This is significant in Christianity; it's the name of the lance that pierced the side of Jesus during the Crucifixion. It seemed odd that they took the time to mention this and wonder if this will play a factor in the story at some point?
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-02-06 10:10
I think what nightsky is saying, hope nightsky its ok to speak out for you and by all means if i got it wrong, please let me know, what i believe she and i are saying is that say ing the actual words to sam for what dean has done would enable him to forgive himself...we all seem to agree that sam has long since forgiven dean. The basic problem here is his inability thus far to forgive himself. We all know he is sorry, thats a given...but still dean carries the burden...what nightsky is saying and i totally agree is that if dean can say the words to sam...actually look him in the eye and tell him how sorry he is, even though sam knows it and probably doesntt need dean to say it....dean needs to say it for himself...sAyin g it would release the guilt and anger he holds.....the problem is dean cannot let go.....he buries all the crap...he needs to start unleashing all that hes buried so he can move passed it....the apology isnt for sam as much as it is for dean. Of course dean needs to forgive himself...but he needs to start somewhere...he needs to take that step and i believe that an im sorry is that step...because it will enable dean to not only free himself of his guilt, but come to terms with his own inner monster and why he goes to the extremes he does in the first place.....baby steps:D


Look if you are a smoker and you want to stop..you take steps to stopping.nsome might wean off cigarettes slowly cutting down on how many they smoke. Some might smoke e cigarettes. Some chew gum or suck lollipops...or even take the step to not walk to the counter to buy them. Same thing with wanting to stop drinking...its easy to say i will stop...but steps need to be taken to totally free yourself from taking a drink. Its easy to say. I will forgive myself..but its not easy to do...everyone will do something to make it easier to do that....they wiil apologize or make gestures or tell someone to take a swing..bottom line is a step has to be taken in order to be able to forgive oneself.;)
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-06 10:35
I get completely what you are saying that Dean needs to let go and verbalising things may help. But what I'm trying to say and admit it might be in a cack handed way is that until Dean has a degree of self acceptance then verbalising a sorry to Sam is more likely just going to be another exercise in self flagellation for Dean rather than being actually therapeutically helpful to him. He'd be just paying lip service to letting go than actually doing it. Because as we know Sam has forgiven him as much as Dean is sorry.

Further down the line maybe it would be helpful to him but at the moment I think he is far from the point where verbalising he is sorry is actually going to do anything but be detrimental to him because he would putting more emphasis on Sam forgiving him than actually Dean getting to the point of him actually moving on. I think that is the point of having them openingly show Dean apologising and Charlie forgive him but Dean not forgiving himself. He knows she is okay with him with regard to what has happened or as much as she can be, he's said it as much to let her know he feels guilty as to let her let go, but in his head he can't let go.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 12:57
I absolutely agree that Dean isn't yet ready to forgive himself. I'm hoping that's the character growth we'll see this season, though. We are only half way through the episodes!
E
# E 2015-02-06 22:31
Quote:
I get completely what you are saying that Dean needs to let go and verbalising things may help. But what I'm trying to say and admit it might be in a cack handed way is that until Dean has a degree of self acceptance then verbalising a sorry to Sam is more likely just going to be another exercise in self flagellation for Dean rather than being actually therapeutically helpful to him. He'd be just paying lip service to letting go than actually doing it. Because as we know Sam has forgiven him as much as Dean is sorry.

Further down the line maybe it would be helpful to him but at the moment I think he is far from the point where verbalising he is sorry is actually going to do anything but be detrimental to him because he would putting more emphasis on Sam forgiving him than actually Dean getting to the point of him actually moving on. I think that is the point of having them openingly show Dean apologising and Charlie forgive him but Dean not forgiving himself. He knows she is okay with him with regard to what has happened or as much as she can be, he's said it as much to let her know he feels guilty as to let her let go, but in his head he can't let go.
So, an apology is for the person who should do the apologizing? It's not for the person who was wronged? It's therapy for the perpetrator? And where does the victim fall in all this? I don't really care if Dean is "ready" to apologize or if it will increase his self-flagellati on. He should do it because that is what SAM deserves. It doesn't matter if Sam has forgiven Dean, Dean should feel compelled to apologize because that is what you do when you cause another person harm or pain (and the possession caused both). In just the last episode Dean apologized to Charlie and then stated that he did not forgive himself for what he did to her, so clearly he wan't ready to apologize to her either, and yet he did it because it was right and he understood that Charlie deserved that consideration weather Dean himself was ready or not. Doesn't Sam deserve at least as much? How can Dean ever accept himself and forgive himself before he asks those he's wronged for forgiveness FIRST? You don't forgive yourself then ask those you've wronged to forgive you, its the reverse, you acknowledge that things you've done have caused pain, ask for forgiveness for that pain and THEN hope that the forgiveness (freely given by both Charlie and Sam) goes towards the last and hardest step of forgiving yourself. IMO Dean will NEVER be able to move ahead, forgive himself, defeat the mark until he apologizes to Sam and asks for forgiveness even if he already knows that Sam's forgiveness is already there.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-02-06 23:13
Hey, I just wish someone would have told Sam in season five that all he had to do was forgive himself for going with Ruby and it would be sunshine and roses from there on out. But no, he had to prove himself to Dean. He said he was sorry. He said he was wrong, He said he would change it all if he could. He jumped into the damned Cage to make up for his mistakes. And when he came back and said he figured he paid his dues the board went NUTS about how he hadn't said sorry enough and how dare he just get over it? Heck, Dean continued to blame Sam through the end of season eight and somehow Sam forgiving himself, even after everything to make amends he did wasn't good enough for Dean. Maybe someone needs to send Sam a message that he's finally really off the hook.
E
# E 2015-02-06 23:48
Heh! Good point Percy's. Sam got it wrong. He didn't need to apologize or grovel or atone for the entirety of season 5 and then essentially kill himself by jumping into the pit, he just had to "forgive himself." What a fool he was to waste so much time making amends, being sorry and asking for forgiveness that was basically never given; he should have just told Dean that he did the right thing and that he'd let Lucifer out of the cage again if he had the chance and that he'd already forgiven himself for it and was moving on.
Prix68
# Prix68 2015-02-07 07:30
Dean didn't blame Sam for starting the apocalypse, he blamed Sam for trusting Ruby more then him and part of that was because of the phone message left by Dean and changed by Ruby that was never discussed by either brother. Dean defended Sam to that girl hunter as well in S8. I wasn't on the boards back then but if people were that callous and nasty then they were wrong. Dean didn't want Sam to jump into the pit but he was convinced by both Bobby and Sam to let it happen. Dean was wrong not to defend Sam when demon possessed Bobby made that horrible speech to Sam in the room and wrong to bring up the trust issue later at the hospital. If Dean should have ever apologized for anything it was that because he was so very wrong and so very hurtful and a really bad brother at that moment. That episode broke my heart and we never really have gotten any resolution and damned if they don't keep bringing it up. So I get your bitterness.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-07 07:54
Hi Prix68 - not looking to start an argument but Dean has on multiple occasions blamed Sam for this - two instances come to mind -

5.5 Fallen Idols, Dean talking to someone (probably Bobby) on the phone
Dean - "Yeah, Abraham Lincoln and James Dean, can you believe that? ...Why so kill-crazy? Ah, maybe the apocalypse has got 'em all hot and bothered. Yeah, well, we all know whose fault that is. ...Well I'm sorry, but it's true."

8.23 - Sacrifice, Sam getting ready to enter the confessional to "purify" his blood, and Sam not knowing where to start.
Dean - "All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, killing Lilith, letting Lucifer out, losing your soul, not looking for me when I went to Purgatory:

I don't think Dean, deep down, really believes that, but he did say it on a couple of occasions.

And I disagree with Dean not coming to Sam's defense when possessed Bobby gave him that verbal tongue lashing. Sam needed to own up and take responsibility, be an adult, and having his older brother come to his defense would not have helped.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-02-07 08:03
I will add that although Dean was willing to tell Tracy she shouldn't be mad at Sam basically because "we all make mistakes". He definitely didn't say, "Sam wasn't the only one to let Lucifer out". Even if you say it wasn't the time for him to go into detail then, he could have at least reiterated TO SAM that Sam wasn't alone in starting the Apocalypse and taken his share of the blame. Instead, he continues to do things that make it hard for Sam to "forgive himself".
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-07 11:17
Quote:
I don't think Dean, deep down, really believes that, but he did say it on a couple of occasions.
I’d like to think so but the evidence points to Dean not having come to terms with the role Sam played in the apocalypse getting started.

8.06 Southern Comfort

Garth: A spectre is an avenging ghost. It, uh – it possesses you and finds out whatever betrayals you're feeling and forces you to act on them.

Dean: Well, let's go through some of Sammy's greatest hits. Drinking demon blood, check. Being in cahoots with Ruby. Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you're doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren't mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!
Sam: All right. You said it. We've both played a little fast and loose.
Dean: Yeah, I might have lied, but I never once betrayed you. I never once left you to die. And for what, a girl? You left me to die for a girl?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-07 13:44
I think that reference about being betrayed had more to do with Sam not looking for Dean while he was in purgatory, not his role in the apocalypse. But again, that's just my interpretation.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-07 14:36
Maybe Dean doesn’t feel like Sam betrayed him by letting Lucifer out since that was more about Sam mistakenly thinking that he was stopping the last seal from being broken. But the steps Sam took to get there (working with Ruby, drinking demon blood) feel like betrayals to Dean.

8.23 Sacrifice shows that Dean hasn’t let Sam completely off the hook for the part Sam played in the apocalypse being started.
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-07 23:31
To be honest, any type of reference to Southern Comfort doesn't win me over, only because it was written by a writer that most of the time has gotten Sam and Dean characterizatio n wrong than right. That episode easily fell on the wrong side. It's really hard to dig up examples from season seven on, because the writers just haven't paid that careful attention to continuity, theme, mytharc, world building, etc. They write what they write to self service their own stories and get that fan girl squee. Even Carver has had some slip ups. He wrote the brilliant "Sacrifice" and then blew it all apart the very next episode (9.01). I just think the writers don't give a damn anymore. So, not to deflate your argument, because I do get your point, but maybe the issue here is more due to poor writing than anything.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-08 12:52
He tweeted yesterday his list of his favorites of his episodes and Southern Comfort is 5 on the list. This is the person who might end up as showrunner ... I don't think his episodes would bother me so much if I didn't know how close he is to being the guy who makes the decisions. :(
I do like Mommy Dearest and Mother's Little Helper (though also Misha's directing in that adds to it hugely) so it isn't all bad I guess.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-08 13:00
Alice - Honestly listening to J. Carver speak makes you question if the man even knows what planet he's on!!! Jensen made a joking observation at a recent con about nobody knowing what Jeremy means when he talks (or something to that effect). :) He must be a genius or something otherwise I don't see how the dude is capable of not only showrunning Supernatural but when it was still on, Being Human. Maybe his brain functions at such an astounding speed and level that we mere mortals could never comprehend! ;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-08 13:13
Uh Oh. Multiple postings again...

Oh and I'd like to second that comment over- you-know-who probably becoming the next showrunner..... . :(
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-08 17:41
Honestly public speaking and interviews are not his strong point that's for sure. Sera and Eric were much more adept at that sort of thing. Every time Jeremy opens his mouth something falls out that sets people off.
E
# E 2015-02-08 18:18
Do you think he's doing it on purpose? Eric Kripke was well known for messing with the fans. The introduction of Gen as Sam's new girlfriend Kristy rather than as the new Ruby in season 4 was initially a very deliberate "lets screw with the fans" moment that Eric admitted tickled him to no end. His direct quote was "I want to see how mad they (the fans) get." If JC IS doing it on purpose, he doesn't have the finesse of Erik Kripke, the cool slickness of Sera Gamble nor the mad hatter quality of Ben Edlund.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-08 19:00
No he definitely does not E. I don't think he is even smart about it. He uses a lot of clichés and really says nothing. He tends to build things up that don't really pan out as presented. I think his time would be better served if he stayed in the writers room and cranked out a few more episodes a year.:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-08 21:39
Amen Padaleski!!!!! :)
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 08:25
Problem is that we don't write the show so your statement that Dean won't move on till he apologises to Sam doesn't matter it is up to what Singer and JC say.
E
# E 2015-02-07 09:54
What has "that's how the writers choose to write it" got to do with what Dean needs to do in order to be a decent human being? It's irrelevant. You can scapegoat the writers if you like, it doesn't change that to me, Dean needs to apologize and I won't be able to truly respect him again until he does, writers or no writers. Sam deserves no less IMO. Dean apologized to Charlie and that's a good start. Its hardest to apologize to those that mean the most to us and Sam means to most to Dean, so I understand that this is probably the hardest part for Dean. He still needs to do it, as Sam did for an entire year in season 5 and again in season 6 as well for being soulless which wasn't even his fault. It doesn't matter that Sam has already forgiven Dean, that is what Sam does, always. Dean needs to do it because it's right and decent.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 10:32
Dean and Sam are fictional characters whose actions are solely dictated by the people who are writing the show, so it kind of does change things as if they don't want to address things that would make you respect Dean then it won't happen.

We've had Dean obviously beat himself up last season so we know he is sorry that is probably what we are going to get and for me saying sorry will not drive story without Dean address his personal issues first as it won't allow him to move on as shown by him and Charlie.

But with respect saying Dean needs to apologise to be a decent human being where as Sam always forgives Dean and apologised an entire year is heading means this is going towards Dean v Sam territory which is not where I want to go so probably best to end this now.
E
# E 2015-02-08 18:27
Sam and Dean are fictional characters?! Next you'll tell me that there's no such thing as unicorns. :P All joking aside… we were discussing Sam and Dean in real world terms and the real world consequences of actions taken. First it was about how Sam's actions made Dean feel in season 5; he was understandably betrayed and let Sam know it. Then when we turned to how Sam felt betrayed in season 9 by Dean, all of a sudden it's "that's how the writers wrote it." What's true for Sam is true for Dean, well at least for me it is. If we are going to discuss what the boys do in real world terms then we must do so equally and not use "that's how the writers wrote it" as an out. With Sam we have the hind sight of 20/20 and a storyline that has been resolved. We are in the middle of Dean's so speculation on his actions is fare game.

For me, Dean must be willing to see that his actions may have caused another person pain, that in turn will make him sorry (at least for the pain part if not for the saving Sam part) and then hopefully he'll want to apologize because it's the right thing to do. THEN he can hopefully use that forgiveness (which is already there, Sam forgave him at the end of last season) to find how to forgive himself and live with himself. For me, the self realization does not come first, it is a long process by which the transgressions must be dealt with as part of the processes of self realization, not the other way around. Apologizing to Sam will be tough for Dean, but not as tough as it will be for Dean to forgive himself…. that will come last. Any way that's my opinion, and it probably isn't' going to change. :)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-08 22:16
Well said E!
E
# E 2015-02-09 03:33
:D:D
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-07 13:55
Hi Sugarhi15 (still getting used to the name you're using the post now :) ) - I just don't think people are going to get the type of apology they are looking for. The brothers really don't communicate that way; Dean already knows Sam forgives him, Dean needs to forgive himself. I think Dean will end up making his atonement/"apol ogy" thru his deeds and actions. Going back to what Carver said about the brother's relationship having to mature, I think Sam is a lot further along on that front; it hasn't always been clearly written but it's there. Dean's got a way to go on that front, but has someone to help him along the way. While there have been plenty of complaints about the way Sam is being written, one positive is the way he's being portrayed this season in his interactions with Dean; he is being steadfast, supportive, calm; not confrontational or in his face about everything that's going on, taking on the role of big brother.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 15:33
Great points. Exactly this. Actions speak louder than words, talk is cheap... Dean is making his apology thru deeds/actions, that is true to his character. Sam understands this and thats why a verbal apology - while fandom would like to see/hear -isn't really necessary and is so unlikely to happen. Everything changed that monent Sam held a dying Dean in his arms.
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-07 23:39
I agree completely njspnfan! I swear I've been reading the apology complaint for years. Even Kripke wouldn't deal with that because it's not a guy thing to do. They know. Both brothers have dealt with extreme guilt at one point or another that's torn them apart. Going by what we're given with the story (whether we like it or not), Dean needs to learn to forgive himself and even like himself. Until he does, he's a mess. The question now is, how does will it play out? It often doesn't go the way people hope or think.

As for Sam, I love how supportive and steadfast he's been with Dean. It's been great to see. I just wish he had more to do and had a plot to go a lot with that faith in his brother. Supportive brother alone has been kind of a snoozefest.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-08 09:04
Quote:
I swear I've been reading the apology complaint for years. Even Kripke wouldn't deal with that because it's not a guy thing to do.
Sometimes it was called for.

4.22 Lucifer Rising

Written by: Eric Kripke
Directed by: Eric Kripke

Dean (leaving a message to Sam): Hey, it's me. Uh... (clears throat) Look, I'll just get right to it. I'm still pissed... and I owe you a serious beatdown. But... I shouldn't have said what I said. You know, I'm not Dad. We're brothers. You know, we're family. And, uh... no matter how bad it gets, that doesn't change. Sammy, I'm sorry.

At the convent:

Sam (to Dean): I'm sorry.

Maybe the current writers think that something like the possession wasn’t such a big deal because the desired end result was achieved i.e. Sam alive.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-09 05:23
Supportive Brother alone can be a snoozefest Alice and don't think it is going to always be that way, but I am sorry a lot of Dean fans got told to essentially suck it up when they complained of that in season 8 and now we get a lot of Sam fans really complaining when Sam is put in a similar role.

Personally I think season 10 Sam has been the most personally proactive Sam we've seen in a long time. He's getting personal relationships with those that are usually Dean adjacent. He's more of a person than he has been for a long time rather than be a plot device which when he is stuck in plots he kind of falls into.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-06 10:24
Quote:
dean needs to say it for himself...sAying it would release the guilt and anger he holds
Yes I agree
Attie
# Attie 2015-02-06 10:54
I don't think anyone expects, or realistically ever expected, Dean to apologise or try to atone for anything he has done. It was suggested at the start of this year that he would because that's what people do when they knowingly hurt others. It's not only done because it's the decent thing to do but it shows that you think enough of, and have respect enough for, the person you hurt to want to acknowledge them. The problem is that Dean has no intention of changing what he does. Dean intentionally does things that he knows are wrong, that he knows that Sam would never want him to do but he keeps on doing them anyway because it always gets him exactly what he wants. Why would he want to change that? He has already told Sam that he'd have him possessed again so any 'apology' from Dean would be absolutely worthless. The benefit of the 'self forgiveness' course of action that he's taking is that the next time he does the same thing all he needs to do is 'self forgive' again, and the path will be clear for him to do it again and again.
If Dean is truly sorry (and that's a big if) then he'll want to change his behaviour because it's this behaviour that always affects other people. He won't just self pity about it for seasons on end before he decides to forgive himself. (Easiest path to redemption ever!). However, Dean changing his behaviour means there's a chance he'll have to sacrifice what he wants, and Dean won't do that.
amyh
# amyh 2015-02-06 13:09
The biggest problem with all this Sam feeling self worth is he finds his self worth in saving Sam. In order to do this Sam has to be saved...i.e. knocked out, unconcious, possessed...et. etc. But....thing is...what if the writers actually wrote Sam true to charector? By that i mean as the intellegent, word class hunter he is supposed to be. Does this mean Dean will never find self worth/defeat the MOC if Sam can handle himself in a hunt; be the strong, capable bad ass we all know he is and can be?

Which brings to thought. When Sam is seperated from Dean he is exactly the hunter he should be. Intellegent, bad ass, thinks on his feet. he saves people, kills stuff and doesn't get knocked out. Sam is a better, stronger hunter apart from Dean. So Is Sam dropping the ball purposefully and letting himself get taken out of the fight so Dean can feel good about himself and feel needed?

That would be insane but more beleivable then Sam being an inefective hunter who needs to be saved constantly.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-02-06 14:42
What an interesting thought. At the beginning of the season, right up until the last few episodes, it appeared that Sam was being relatively competent even after Dean was cured. It even looked like he was taking the lead a bit. So what changed? I agree that Sam is a different person when he's interacting with others as opposed to Dean. But isn't that true of a lot of us? We're one person when we're with people we don't know or friends then we are with out family? Family makes you feel like the child you were no matter how grown up you may be. So maybe subconsciously, Sam reverts a bit. Or it could just be crappy writing. ;)
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-08 10:47
I think in all honesty is just the way they are writing him and with Adam's episodes I tend to not be a fan of how he portray's Sam whether it is adult Sam or young Sam.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 15:41
Prix68 - Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Dean is never going to apologize for the possession and if he were to do so it would so ring hollow. Dean obviously feels guilt and regret over having to use the possession as a means to an end and for everything that resulted because of it but he would never apologize for saving Sammys life and yes, I do believe he would do it again the same way. To him there is no other choice. If there is a way, he is going to find it or use it. That's just Dean. I have also thought that this season Sam has moved on from the possession as well. I think Sam got over it the moment he held his dying brother in his arms, knowing that none of it mattered at that point. Then miracle of miracles, Deans a demon, Sam cures him and the brothers get a supernatural do-over. They both realize how fortunate they are. Now they are both fighting the MOC both together and in their own ways. I do think Dean needs to learn to forgive himself as well as accepting forgiveness from others. Some people have a hard time accepting a complment, let alone forgiveness and they haven't lived a Winchesters life. :)
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-06 15:56
If Dean apologies (and only after he gets some self acceptance/wort h, not just accepting forgiveness from others) he should be doing so for purely the affects of the possession on Sam, not for the possession itself. Because as you said I think that Dean felt he never had any other choice. If he does anything before that it will just be reinforcing his codependency problems which got him into taking the mark in the first place.

Though with regards to apologises the problem isn't that the boys haven't moved on from it, it is us that haven't moved on from it. Samfans want an apology for the possession and Dean fans want it for the purge.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-06 19:09
Quote:
If Dean apologies (and only after he gets some self acceptance/worth, not just accepting forgiveness from others) he should be doing so for purely the affects of the possession on Sam, not for the possession itself. Because as you said I think that Dean felt he never had any other choice.
Why shouldn’t Dean acknowledge to Sam that tricking Sam into being possessed and keeping it a secret for about six months was wrong in and of itself?

Dean felt that it was the only way but apologizing only for the consequences of the possession seems strange to me since some of them weren’t under Dean’s control whereas he made the initial decision to allow an angel in Sam.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-07 03:01
I do not want a apology for the possession I want Sam to have a genuine recognition that nobody including Dean can just do what they like when it comes to his mind , body or spirit and not blame the victim in the writing and literally give him no pov. As for The Purge the reaction to that sums up my problem last year to what the fandom thought was the worst of the two, and then how the writers subsequently had Dean react coming out with snarky comments made it look like mean words was the problem when it was not. Considering the 'mean spirited' words Dean has said to Sam in the past the Purge was not unique it,s uniqueness was only in it was Sam saying it not Dean. And if had been Dean would half the fuss of been made ?.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 08:33
There are two problems with your argument to my mind.

Firstly no-one on this thread writes the show and so far it looks like for JC it is sorted and second if you have Sam wants genuine recognition about the possession there is also something they need to address with regard to his side of the codependency and I'm going to say it and get crucified for it. He said yes. Dean didn't stick a hand up Sam's backside like a puppet and make him mouth the words. Sure Dean should have come clean, oh God yes he should. But Sam didn't ask what was the plan and he has to ask himself if he was so comfortable about dying why he did that. Was it complete trust in Dean or was there some small part of him glad Dean turned up with a plan that meant he didn't have to die.

For me those are two different things and it would be interesting to examine as it would give us an insight in to Sam's mind, IF Dean attempted to apologise for any of it which I still say means nothing if it happens and Dean hasn't gotten to a point of self acceptance.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 09:21
Sam said yes because Dean said it would destroy Dean if Sam died. it was 'there ain't no me if there ain't no you' that made Sam agree. Sam did not want to agree, he had just been promised peace. The expression on his face as he looks to Death is heartbreaking if you care about Sam's existence and suffering at all.
Sam in that moment gave up the chance to be at peace. He was hurt afterwards to discover this sacrifice on his part immediately led to him being manipulated into something he would not have wanted and the death of his friend at his hands. He also felt that Dean could acknowledge all that. Hence the things he said in the Purge, which were valid points from the perspective of Sam at that moment and as someone said no worse than the things that Dean says to him when Dean is feeling hurt.
No Dean should not apologise until he realises what he did that was wrong. That would not be sincere, and it wouldn't solve the MOC problem. Dean needs to learn WHAT it is of the things he did that are things he should not do to another grown adult who has free will.
As for the writers, no they aren't great because they aren't (apparently) writing a coherent storyline that ties together all the things that happen in the episodes, just the ones that suit at a given time. There is a thing called 'death of the author' however where a story has points that a writer includes that the audience interpret. It seems like somewhat of a cop-out to me as an idea but I think the point is that if a photographer takes a photo of a tiny bit of landscape, it doesn't matter if he can only see the closeup of a flower, the car that is about to hit him is still there ;) (of course sometimes a photographer will add a fake magical creature to the closeup and claim it is a real picture but that is the opposite end of the argument) It is vaild to include all canon even if it doesn't suit the writers to remember it happened.
I am sorry if my reply makes you feel crucified, it is not my intention.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 10:44
No you didn't crucify me. Your view of Sam saying yes is valid and is also something that Sam should address but again as again I think Sam needs to address this just like the other options as it would feed into his side of the codependency. But this will quickly fall into the whole Sam v Dean argument.

Also JC keeps saying Sam is going to have to examine the declarations he made as he finds himself in similar positions to Dean, so we will have to see where that goes.

As for the death of author, hadn't heard of that before. I'll have to look it up.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-07 11:30
Quote:
and second if you have Sam wants genuine recognition about the possession there is also something they need to address with regard to his side of the codependency and I'm going to say it and get crucified for it. He said yes. Dean didn't stick a hand up Sam's backside like a puppet and make him mouth the words. Sure Dean should have come clean, oh God yes he should. But Sam didn't ask what was the plan and he has to ask himself if he was so comfortable about dying why he did that. Was it complete trust in Dean or was there some small part of him glad Dean turned up with a plan that meant he didn't have to die.
Sam already said, “The whole reason I stopped doing the trials was not to die,” when he came to the realization that he was in a coma and dying. In the end, he was ready to go with Death because he couldn’t come up with a plan that wouldn’t involve making a deal.

Dean/Gadreel: Sam, listen to me. I made you a promise in that church. You and me, come whatever. Well, hell, if this ain't whatever... But you got to let me in, man. You got to let me help. There ain't no me if there ain't no you.
Sam: What do I do?
Dean/Gadreel: Is that a yes?
Sam: Yes.
Dean/Gadreel: Come on.


Is that not Sam asking about the plan? Dean/Gadreel sidestepped it by offering a counter question. So Sam said yes to Dean like Gadreel and Dean had predicted. Thus, Gadreel possessed Sam immediately.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 12:44
Asking 'what do I do?' isn't really asking what a plan is, it is asking what do you do within the plan to me.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-07 12:58
Quote:
it is asking what do you do within the plan to me.
Dean did not tell him what that was.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 16:14
He didn't ask what the plan was when asked if that is a yes. Sam has a mouth he could of, couldn't he?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-07 23:10
Quote:
Sam has a mouth he could of, couldn't he?
That is why he asked what should he do?Now if Dean goes for deception..that is dean's fault.Dean did not answer Sam's question.why?De an had a mouth just a deceiving one that is all.
E
# E 2015-02-08 18:30
He did, he said "what do I do," that is Sam asking for clarification. Dean did not answer that question because he knew he couldn't answer that question. If he did Sam probably would have given him an unequivocal NO and gone with Death. Dean couldn't take the chance and so he diverted to "Is that a yes." The moment he did that, Sam was tricked.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-08 21:40
I'm not taking sides on this issue really but I do think that question wasn't 'what's the plan?' I think it was more " what do I do?"....now or next. Sam placed his trust in Dean. Now having said that I agree Sam was duped. I think we may disagree on Dean's motivation. Fair. I think he was panicked and desperate, doesn't make it right however. He did not set out to deceive Sam but his fear of losing him pushed him , with Gadreels prodding, to trick Sam and go against what he knew would be Sam's wishes. Not good. Doesn't excuse Dean.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-02-08 22:16
I can and do sympathize with Dean's initial decision to get Sam to say yes to Gadreel. He was panicked and there wasn't any time for him to come up with a better solution. Dean knew it was wrong and knew Sam would say no, but in the heat of the moment his actions were understandable. What I find impossible to defend is his refusal to let Sam know what was going on. Even worse was his agreeing that Gadreel should wipe Sam's mind of what happened whenever it was needed to keep Sam in the dark. Sam did want to live so Dean using extraordinary measures at first was fine. But Sam had every right to know what was happening to his own body and decide if he was willing to continue to use those measures. The fact that Sam probably would have rejected using Gadreel to heal himself isn't a good excuse for Dean to withhold information. People have the right to decide that a life saving measure of any sort is one they don't want to use. Sam was sane, and able to decide how he wanted to live his life. If he was repulsed by being possessed then he had the right to decide if he dying was a better option. Dean's initial decision was wrong, but understandable. His continued deception was unforgivable, IMHO. That doesn't mean Sam won't forgive him, but keeping Sam from finding out about Gadreel was the real sin, for me.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-08 22:44
I wasn't talking about the aftermath in my post just my interpretation of that particular question that Sam asked. Regarding the aftermath I do think that Gadreel blackmailed Dean into silence a few times by threatening Sam's life. I think Dean's instinct was to come clean and he felt bad about the deception but he kept compounding things by buying into what Gad was selling with disastrous consequences. I'll just leave it at that.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-09 02:36
This!
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-09 05:40
Quote:
Regarding the aftermath I do think that Gadreel blackmailed Dean into silence a few times by threatening Sam's life.
I disagree because along the way Dean started to trust Gadreel. Gadreel only reminded Dean that Sam could eject him at any time. I believe that the sunk cost fallacy influenced Dean to continue to keep the possession a secret from Sam even after Sam started to feel awful about himself because of the effect the possession had on him. Of course the most important reason was Dean being afraid that Sam would rather die than continue being possessed (Dean wanted to think of the possession as an angel healing Sam from the inside).
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-09 23:23
I didn't say Dean knew he was being blackmailed. I actually don't think that Dean trusted Gadreel completely. He took the word of Cas that this was an angel to be trusted (not that smart I admit). In my mind it was about keeping Sam alive until he was healed. I think that was his primary goal and having Gad be ejected by Sam was not an option he would risk. Dean wanted to think that Gadreel was healing Sam because that seemed to be what was happening. I also think he absolutely knew he would face Sam's wrath when he found out. Dean made horrible judgment calls. This is not a defense of Dean's actions. Just my attempt to see it from Dean's perspective not that I agree with it. I have always tried to do the same with Sam and Cas.
E
# E 2015-02-09 07:55
Hi Leah, I know we aren't going to agree on this, but when Sam said "what do I do" for me that is a request for more information, a request for Dean to explain what he wants Sam to do because he wants to know what Dean's plan is at that point. Had Dean answered the "what do I do" question with "you have to let an angel in Sammy, he'll heal you, save your life, please do it for me" then I could see Sam having made an in formed decision regarding what Dean was about to do. But A) Dean probably didn't have enough time, although that's debatable and B) he couldn't risk Sam saying no to what he had planned, so he diverted the question, essentially hiding what he was asking Sam to do with another question which was "Is that a yes?" He needed the actual word 'yes' and realized that he could get Sam to say 'yes' right at that moment, even if Sam at that point had no knowledge of what he was saying 'yes' to. IMO Sam's "what do I do" was a clear attempt to get more information out of Dean and Dean didn't give it. People can argue that Sam should have said "what's the plan" "what do you have in mind" or any other sort of phrase seeking more information, but really that's just semantics. Just because the exact words "what's the plan" weren't used it seems like many fans are trying to dismiss the entire situation in its entirety, which not only gives Dean an out, it also puts the burden of what was done to Sam onto Sam. "What do I do" is Sam clearly seeking information about Dean's plan and then Dean did not answer that question. That is when the trickery happened. And because Dean still couldn't be sure that Sam would accept what Dean had done in the months afterwards, Dean perpetuated the lie. That's my view anyway. :D
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-09 23:39
:) I always enjoy reading your take E. Yes we don't agree on this one. If you just isolate the sentence it is not a 'read between the lines' thing for me. It is Sam thinking there was a valid plan and trusting Dean to tell him "what do I do" next. Of course Dean should have explained it all to Sam. But events accelerated to the last few seconds of Sam's life and Sam was tricked into saying "yes" as soon as possible. There is no denying that! There is no right or wrong to our interpretations . I like to hear them all even if I happened to have seen it differently.
E
# E 2015-02-10 06:50
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then…like always! For me, there is no reading between the lines. "what do I do" is a clear request for MORE information on it's face, not between the lines. Dean is the one who did not answer; Dean is the one who took that moment to distract with another question to achieve the actual word "yes" although he had not, in that moment, told Sam what the "yes" was going to to be used for. And IMO he couldn't because he couldn't risk Sam knowing "what do I have to do" because of the threat that Sam might say no. So for me, in that moment, Dean withheld vital information which mean Sam could not make an informed decision.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-08 23:43
Quote:
I'm not taking sides on this issue really but I do think that question wasn't 'what's the plan?' I think it was more " what do I do"....now or next.
I agree.My point is it is still a question.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-09 00:12
I'm not exactly sure what you mean but I did see your post above. I will agree they both have mouths :D I just don't think deception was what Dean had in mind when he sat by Sam's bed probably all night. I don't think Dean had deception in mind when he prayed for help. The end result was deception yes. A few seconds as Sam was dying made him deceive Sam because time was running out. I can't think Dean was vile for that anonymous, sorry. He handled the events after poorly, still not intending to deceive but feeling if he didn't keep quiet Sam would end up dying by rejecting Gadreel. I know we and others will never see eye to eye on this. That's ok.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-09 02:01
Quote:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean
That is to be expected ..I was not clear to what I was referring.:DQuote:
I don't think Dean had deception in mind when he prayed for help. The end result was deception yes. A few seconds as Sam was dying made him deceive Sam because time was running out. I can't think Dean was vile for that anonymous
I agree with you.
I do not think Dean is vile.Dean has done a mistake and I expect him to apologize.Dean and Sam are the leading characters of the show...so ,that is why i expect him to acknowledge that it was wrong of him (along with gadreel) to twist sam's words and not answering Sam's question about what he should do.
All other grieviences I have it is to do with the writers not with Dean.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-09 02:04
Nicely said, Leah!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-09 02:53
Quote:
Sam placed his trust in Dean.
But he asked for what to do..he did not say he will do whatever Dean says.This a simple play of words by Gaddean tag team.and as you said sam was duped.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-09 07:10
I did anonymousN I DO think he was tricked. Dean did betray that trust. I only differ in that I don't think he set out to deceive. The question in question is not asking for clarification IMO. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have been offered. Or the onus was on Sam in any way. I just think the writers intention was to show Dean making a very bad judgment call under duress.
E
# E 2015-02-09 08:40
I agree with this. And I think Dean knows he made a bad call and hopefully he regrets the trickery and the fall out. I don't think he'll ever be able to think that he did the wrong thing though, not ultimately because Sam is alive. I wish there was a better balance to this somehow. And not to beat a dead horse or anything, this in a nutshell is why an apology is so important to me. Dean needs to apologize to Sam. I know the writers have said its not "a guy thing" but Sam apologized for season 4 (pretty much for all of season 5) to Dean and Cas and Bobby and everyone. For it not being a "guy thing" Sam's done pretty well when it comes to apologies. Now Dean has apologized to Charlie. It's a start.. he needs to go further, "guy thing" or no "guy thing."
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2015-02-10 08:29
But Dean did say that he tricked Sam. Those words actually came out of his mouth. I don't know what episode it was, but he actually used those words so doesn't that make it canon?
E
# E 2015-02-10 08:39
I think you're right… maybe it was The Purge of the other ep where they had their fight in the kitchen. So many fans seem to be trying to mitigate Dean's guilt by blaming Sam (at least in part) for the possession that I think we've all forgotten that Dean also thinks he tricked Sam and pretty much said as much, and that deep down he knows what he did was wrong. Otherwise his taking on the Mark as punishment doesn't make a lick of sense.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-10 10:49
It was in the store room....Dean: I tricked you. It seemed like the only way.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-09 05:47
I don't take it as clarification as much as 'what do you want me to do'

See I always remember what my mum used to say to me when I was little -

'Would you jump off a cliff if your pal told you it was a good idea?'

'Well, if you do and you break your leg don't you come crying to me or go blame anyone else but yourself because it was your own damn fault.'

'Doesn't matter if you trusted him, you jumped, you knew it could happen you are as much to blame for it happening.'

'Why? You knew breaking a leg could happen, you knew that worse could happen, you didn't check it wasn't going to happen so don't you go blame him as he didn't push you off the damn thing or say he was going to hurt anyone to make you. And it doesn't matter if you did it not to hurt his feelings, you did it and didn't stop yourself and you could of. You would have done and no asked because you didn't want someone to tell you it could happen so don't complain if you've got a broken leg, because you know damn better to jump off a cliff because someone TOLD you too.'

See to me because Sam knew that there maybe a price and Dean didn't physically force a yes out of him. Yes Gadreel could have been more deceiving when he asked is that a 'yes' but there was a split second when Sam still could have said 'wait a minute' and that to me is the difference, there was no wait an minute. The aftermath sure Dean was wrong but the saying yes part Sam could have asked what the plan was.

And yes my mother was a hard woman.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-09 08:15
It is like you ask your friend "what do i do" and then she says "jump off the cliff'.Now the decision is yours .If you want to you are free to if not that is your decision.In life we want many things but it always the cost of the said thing and whether we find it acceptable or not.The thing is your friend told you the truth that she wants you to jump off the cliff.and as your mother said it will be your fault.
If your friend said I want you near the 100 km mark (which is at the bottom of the hill) where she is at.
Your friend knows you don't like to have broken limbs but there is no her without you,She knows your conversation with your mother where you said you do not like broken limbs but she just wants you with her.She is desperate.
She has to convnce you as you have said to your mother that there are things you do not want as a price for getting down to the 100 km mark.
So you ask her "what do I do"
She says "is that a yes"
You say "yes"
Next minute you are falling down the cliff because you have been possessed by a ghost who just wanted an yes to possess you.What your friend did not tell you was she had plans of getting you possessed as the price for having you down there with her.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-09 09:29
Quote:
If your friend said I want you near the 100 km mark (which is at the bottom of the hill) where she is at.
Your friend knows you don't like to have broken limbs but there is no her without you,She knows your conversation with your mother where you said you do not like broken limbs but she just wants you with her.She is desperate.
Yes my friend is desperate but my friend hasn't pushed me or threatened to kill a puppy to get me down there by jumping off the cliff. I still know the pitfalls that broken bones are a possibility and I could have asked 'do you know if there is a path down to you?'

That was the point, if I know that there are possible bad consequences, my friend being desperate or not I can't pretend I didn't. That being said I can't really complain if I get hurt when I had the freewill and ability not to jump and understood there maybe bad consequences if I did.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-09 09:45
Quote:
I could have asked 'do you know if there is a path down to you?'
No , You asked your friend how to get down .Your friend if she had told you "You get possessed by a ghost and the ghost will jump with you she will also heal you on the way ." Now it can go two ways.You think that being possessed by a ghost is a steep price to pay or you go along with what you have to do.You decide whether the price you are going to pay is worth not your friend.And if she is your true friend she will tell you this.Quote:
That being said I can't really complain if I get hurt when I had the freewill and ability not to jump and understood there maybe bad consequences if I did.
Yes I agree YOU can't.because your friend told you that you have jump.i.e she told you what you had to do.not the plan just what you had to do.Quote:
I still know the pitfalls that broken bones are a possibility and I could have asked 'do you know if there is a path down to you?
Broken bones are not a possibilty if there is a path.So to know that you are asking your friend what you have to do.Maybe your friend tells you that they are getting a helicopter to airlift you, what you have to do is just wait.maybe she will tell you to trust her and just wait and not tell you about the airlift part. Who knows it is your friend who has to furnish that information.The n you decide whether you will do it or not.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-09 11:24
Quote:
No , You asked your friend how to get down .Your friend if she had told you "You get possessed by a ghost and the ghost will jump with you she will also heal you on the way ." Now it can go two ways.You think that being possessed by a ghost is a steep price to pay or you go along with what you have to do.You decide whether the price you are going to pay is worth not your friend.And if she is your true friend she will tell you this.
Then I can't complain. I also can't complain if I also know that there is no way to jump without getting broken bones without something major I may not like. My friend being my true friend also knows I have the brains to know this as well. She told me I had to jump, she knows I have the brains to know that means consequences and to ask what the consequences are.

Yes my friend putting me in that situation is bad but you have admit that if you have brains you have to take some responsibility about making the decision to jump because no-one but you is going to take that final decision to do so and nothing is stopping you trying to get all the facts about what will happen if you do and asking 'what do I do?' isn't asking for all the facts, it is not truly looking before you leap.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-09 12:08
Quote:
I also can't complain if I also know that there is no way to jump without getting broken bones without something major I may not like.
Yes If you know that and that is why you asked your friend what you have to do .Now if your friend tells you that you have to jump and you go through with it then yes you have no brains.But your friend has not told you that only way to get down is by breaking your bones then your friend is not your true friend and your brain is there because you were not saying yed to jumping.Quote:
you have admit that if you have brains you have to take some responsibility
i admit to no such thing .If you were possessed by a ghost and that possession is what led to your jumping then no i do not admit to even 1% of you ask of me to admit.If your possession was done by decepyion then i would not even dream of blaming you or expect you to take responsibility .Quote:
asking 'what do I do?' isn't asking for all the facts,
Yes,It is asking what you have to do.That is what is asked not the plan but what he has to do.I did not say that he asked for the plan.Dean did not tell him what he had to do and by the same token the friend did not tell what you had to do so your friend as well as Dean are at fault
E
# E 2015-02-09 23:41
Quote:
Would you jump off a cliff if your pal told you it was a good idea?'
'Well, if you do and you break your leg don't you come crying to me or go blame anyone else but yourself because it was your own damn fault.'
'Doesn't matter if you trusted him, you jumped, you knew it could happen you are as much to blame for it happening.'
I do remember this old adage, my mom used to say it too. Maybe its something all moms say to their kids. However, as far as Sam and Dean are concerned this really doesn't apply. In the adage, the person jumps off the bridge knowing full well that is what they are about to do and they do it anyway to appease their friend. With Sam and Dean, Sam was basically standing on the edge of the bridge blindfolded and bound. Then Dean tells him, "just step forward Sammy, I need you to do it: there's no me if there's no you. Do it for me." And Sam, trusting his brother, steps forward. Sam had no knowledge of a beige or a jump or that he might fall. His brother said trust me, and Sam having zero reason to not trust Dean, trusted in him the way he always does. Only this time Dean lead Sam right off the edge of a bridge. You can't blame the victim if the victim has no knowledge of the danger they are in. And you can argue that Sam should have been suspicious or expected something if you like, but since there has been no precedence for that on the show, Sam had no reason. He assumed his big brother would take care of him, and not hurt him as he always has in the past. Sam took a leap off the bridge in blind faith in his brother and ended up with two broken legs for his troubles.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-09 02:16
And does anybody think either Dean or Gadreel was going to give Sam a chance to say 'no' even as people seem to think that the onus was on Sam in this to ask for details of their plan .
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-09 05:59
But Sam would have asked, the deception would have been clearer.

Without that there is the argument that Sam is willingly giving away his agency because he knew that something bad was possible, Dean has gone to stupid dangerous lengths before to save him, he was talking to head Death about preventing stupid dangerous things being done to save him, where as Sam asking details and being lied to his his agency definitely being taken from him.

It's grey areas, yes but it is there.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-09 10:18
Again I do not see how it is appropiate to put the onus on Sam in that situation. The possession was on Dean and Gadreel not on Sam's knowledge of whether Dean would go to the lengths to save him , Dean was well aware of how considering his past how Sam would feel about another entity using him.

The focus seems to of become more about what Sam should of done in that moment rather than what was actually being done .
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-09 11:24
A couple of points I thought I would throw out:
Dean hasn't said once to Sam "hey you know you could have said no. It really is on you for trusting me knowing what lengths I'll go to".
Dean, knowing that Sam would never agree to the plan knew he would have to use Sam's trust in him in order for the deception to work.
This conversation in Sam's head came on the heels of that moment in the church when Dean told Sam (at least as how Sam interpreted the moment) that he trusted him above all others, which is what Sam was begging for. And of course what Dean was saying in that moment is that he would put Sam above all others no matter the price i.e. killing Benny, not closing the gates of hell so that others won't die ( and Dean has made reference to that fact in later episodes).
Also this moment was a set up for the journey we are on now. It was the moment that set Dean on his path to the MOC. Dean had to do something so horrible to Sam (and ultimately to Kevin) to drive him to do something so reckless that he is paying for it in the worst possible way (at least as far as Dean is concerned).
It's not blame that I would put on Dean. It was a desperate situation and there were no options. Dean went with the best case scenario as far as he could see and it backfired just as the writers had planned.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-09 11:26
Sorry Sharon this wasn't supposed to be a reply to you. I don't know why it was put here.....
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-09 11:43
I agree with everything you are saying, just putting another perspective to it as well. Trust or not did Dean or Gadreel really get asked what is the plan by Sam and I kind of think not really.

With that being the case what does that mean to Sam. Dean going on the path to the mark makes sense because as he once said even unemployment was his fault but that isn't my question could Sam have asked for details after going on to Headdeath about not wanting people to go to extrodinary lengths to bring him back and I kind of think he could have.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-09 13:40
Well I think that was the point of the conversation in the Purge. Sam said he can't trust Dean "not the way I thought I could". That is what the writers boiled it down to. Sam trusted Dean and Dean betrayed that trust. Which further set Dean on his path of destruction. As far as the conversation with Death (who I do believe was there to reap Sam since no other reaper showed up) time was up. Sam had no more time than Dean had. It was a yes or no question. That was the intention of the writing of that scene. Everyone was out of time, even Sam.
E
# E 2015-02-09 23:53
Very good point Cheryl… we can argue all day long if Sam was betrayed or if he should have asked for clarification (implying that the possession was Sam's own fault), but clearly THE SHOW feels that Sam was tricked. That much is clear, which is a miracle given how little of Sam we get these days. So it appears that the show has answered this conundrum for us. Dean has to be/feel guilty or the whole MoC thing doesn't even work; he would have had no reason to go punish himself had his actions been on the up and up.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-10 00:17
That is SPN 101 E .:) All these scenarios get set up to make one brother or the other feel guilt, shame, or anger then of course they never really DISCUSS anything leading to even more anger, guilt, shame, and poor decision making which results in the angst you are so fond of.
E
# E 2015-02-10 06:57
Heh… that is SO true Leah… :p. Although the angst that I loved in seasons 4 and 5 and even season 6 has turned sour for me, because of the total lack of Sam POV since the start of season 8. It's hard to enjoy any angst when basically of it's mine over terrible story telling. *sigh*
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-09 13:32
Exactly. The only thing I slightly differ on is that if Dean had had the time to explain the entire plan (and who knows how much time he really did have left because Sams body was shutting down), as well as the fact that it meant angelic possession - I think Sam would have agreed. Laid out it did make sense and I think Sam would've recognized it. Even tho it involved possession, I think Dean was making the assumption based on Sams (and his) past histories that he would never agree to be possessed but who knows? Hell, they do crazy Hail Mary insane last minute crap all the time. Especially Dean and no one knows that better than Sam and this isn't the first time either one of them blindly followed the others plan. But Sam loves his brother and was acting on that trust/bond that ultimately Dean was acting in Sammys best interest i.e. to keep Sam alive and get him out of their predicament. True Dean/Zeke or Zeke/Dean didn't go into details but once he was presented with the chance that big bro might have found a way, Sam took that leap of faith. He didn't really want to die, it was more that he didn't see a way out. Once Dean indicated that he did, it gave Sam the hope he needed. It was actually a good option. That is if it had been as Gadreel had proposed and that he wasn't an angel with issues that Metatron could exploit for his evil plans and that once Sam was healed that he would leave as promised....
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-09 13:46
I do agree with that point, Sam may have gone along with the plan. If Dean had said here is an angel vouched for by Castiel that is willing to heal you please give him a chance to save you, Sam might have agreed. Even after the possession as they were leaving the hospital if Dean had come clean Sam might have agreed. But that wasn't the set up. Dean had to feel so guilty about what he had done (and it kept piling up on him throughout the first half of S9) that he made a reckless decision that set up the second half of the S9 and into S10. It was a deliberate storyline for Dean, Sam had to trust him and Dean needed to deceive Sam otherwise the story would have been different.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-09 13:57
Agreed!

What is up with these double posts??? I apologize. Maybe it happens whenever people are replying at the same time?
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-09 15:16
Everyone (not just AlyCat22), I just reloaded the entire page of comments and the double posts were all gone. It might be the commenting system trying to keep up with the speed of your replies! When you hit "reply" or "post", please be patient and give the system time to respond. It you hit the button again, it might double post. The other night (when Alice had to delete dozens of multiple posts), it was absolutely a system problem. I think she sorted that out last night BTS. She'll keep looking into it if it keeps happening.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2015-02-10 05:36
Hi everyone. Interesting discussion. Just thought I'd put my two-cents in, and here seemed like a good place.
To me, the moment Sam initially said yes, that was him trusting Dean, and taking a leap of faith that Dean wouldn't have done something he would disagree with strongly (like a crossroads deal or angel possession) to save his life. Didn't ask for the plan because he thought he wouldn't need to. So in a way (and I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth or anything), to me saying that the onus should have been on Sam to ask what the plan is, is to say that he should've trusted Dean less in that moment. So it was really a matter of trust more than anything else.
After he was possessed was where I felt the main problem was. I can understand Dean making a split-second decision while he was running out of time and his brother's life was on the line. But after Gadreel had possessed Sam and he was up and about, Dean still didn't explain to him what was going on. He simply assumed Sam would say no, kick Gad to the curb and possibly drop down dead. Thing is, he never gave Sam to chance to agree or disagree either way. Sam might well have said OK to it, even if just for Dean's sake. But Dean never gave him that chance and effectively took away his agency in that situation. And strangely enough, it's that decision that indirectly leads to him accepting the Mark from Cain, who, if we take his story at face value, did more or less exactly the same thing to Abel. He assumed that because Abel was talking to Lucifer, he'd become his plaything. He didn't consider that Abel might have caught on, that there might have been a point he'd say no, or be willing to die himself if it came to a choice of that or becoming Lucifer's pet. Instead, he made the decision for Abel, which, unfortunately as we all know, meant having to kill his own brother to ensure Abel's salvation.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-10 10:29
I agree with what you are saying. My point is that the Show is telling a story that is taking Dean down a certain path. If Dean had come clean to Sam we would be watching a different story being told. The scenario we were given was a deliberate plot to get us and Dean to the point we are now.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-09 13:33
Exactly. The only thing I slightly differ on is that if Dean had had the time to explain the entire plan (and who knows how much time he really did have left because Sams body was shutting down), as well as the fact that it meant angelic possession - I think Sam would have agreed. Laid out it did make sense and I think Sam would've recognized it. Even tho it involved possession, I think Dean was making the assumption based on Sams (and his) past histories that he would never agree to be possessed but who knows? Hell, they do crazy Hail Mary insane last minute crap all the time. Especially Dean and no one knows that better than Sam and this isn't the first time either one of them blindly followed the others plan. But Sam loves his brother and was acting on that trust/bond that ultimately Dean was acting in Sammys best interest i.e. to keep Sam alive and get him out of their predicament. True Dean/Zeke or Zeke/Dean didn't go into details but once he was presented with the chance that big bro might have found a way, Sam took that leap of faith. He didn't really want to die, it was more that he didn't see a way out. Once Dean indicated that he did, it gave Sam the hope he needed. It was actually a good option. That is if it had been as Gadreel had proposed and that he wasn't an angel with issues that Metatron could exploit for his evil plans and that once Sam was healed that he would leave as promised....
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-07 13:03
Quote:
Asking 'what do I do?' isn't really asking what a plan is, it is asking what do you do within the plan to me.
How does that make a real difference?

Sam’s role in the plan was to become possessed by an angel so that’s why he had to be tricked into playing his part.

Quote:
But Sam didn't ask what was the plan
So Sam should have spelled it out by saying, “What is the plan?”? How come Sam asking “What do I do?” isn’t enough?
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 13:13
There is a real difference as it would be just asking what is his part in the plan and him not considering the whole thing.

I know what Sam's role in the plan was, but that doesn't stop him asking what the plan was when asked if that was a yes.

As for spelling it out, it is like saying Dean was blaming Sam for the apocalypse in Southern Comfort even though he never mentioned Lucifer. Why is mentioning Ruby enough to say that Dean is blaming Sam for the apocalypse? IS Dean, no he isn't, he's mentioned Ruby not Lucifer. So if Sam isn't asking about the whole plan, he isn't asking about the plan.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-07 13:53
I see it as Sam asking what comes next so in essence he is asking about the plan. But Dean/Gadreel couldn’t let it go that far so they countered the question by prompting Sam to say yes.

Quote:
As for spelling it out, it is like saying Dean was blaming Sam for the apocalypse in Southern Comfort even though he never mentioned Lucifer. Why is mentioning Ruby enough to say that Dean is blaming Sam for the apocalypse?
I’m not saying that Dean thinks that the apocalypse is on Sam but clearly Dean has not been able to get past Sam having played a part in Lucifer getting free.

Dean brings up virtually the same issues later when he is fully in control of himself.

8.23 Sacrifice

Dean: Ruby, killing Lilith, letting Lucifer out, losing your soul, not looking for me when I went to Purgatory

Deep down, Dean feels betrayed by Sam (8.06 Southern Comfort) and he can readily come up with a list of sins that he feels Sam could confess to (8.23 Sacrifice).
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 15:40
And didn't Dean also include a girl that it turned out wasn't an ex of Sam's but his?

So is it the things he is holding Sam accountable for or he started and list of the things involving Sam that he also holds himself accountable for and kept going?
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-07 19:16
Quote:
or he started and list of the things involving Sam that he also holds himself accountable for and kept going?
It doesn’t seem to be the case because Sam being with Ruby, drinking demon blood, going soulless and not looking for Dean when Dean went to Purgatory made Dean feel betrayed.

That leaves Sam killing Lilith and letting Lucifer out but Dean doesn’t feel accountable for those as was shown during season five. For instance:

5.22 Swan Song

Dean: If this is what you want... Is this really what you want?
Sam: I let him out. I got to put him back in.
Dean: Okay. That's it, then.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 15:40
And didn't Dean also include a girl that it turned out wasn't an ex of Sam's but his?

So is it the things he is holding Sam accountable for or he started and list of the things involving Sam that he also holds himself accountable for and kept going?
Attie
# Attie 2015-02-07 15:48
Or perhaps he's so used to blaming Sam for things that the more he thought about that incident with the girl the more he convinced himself it was Sam that did it. Hence his comment.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 16:16
That is taking things a bit too far and sounds like lets rubbish one brother to make the other look like an abused little mite.

A bit much
Attie
# Attie 2015-02-07 16:24
To you, maybe. And if it is 'rubbish' then you're also engaging in it with your 'things involving Sam thatDean holds himself accountable for', as if Dean is some poor persecuted mite.

However, there's been a lot of examples above of Dean holding Sam accountable for things that Dean was equally involved in. The incident with the girl obviously happened a long time ago. Why is it 'rubbish' that Dean might misremember something?
fazzie
# fazzie 2015-02-07 17:41
Attie there is a difference to accidental and delibrate, your remark is coming across as Dean deliberately blames Sam for everything and poor Sam puts up with it, mine's was Dean accidentally threw in the girl as he is also going through things he feels guilty about and Sam rightly called him on it.

If that is your intent then that is rubbishing one brother and making the other one look better
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-07 23:13
Edited by Alice - No, no, no. This is turning into a heated ambush of someone who is offering an opinion. The rest of this chain staring from this point is getting thrown out.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-08 00:38
Yes Alice but she should have kept her opinion about the show not the commentors.Who is she to say Dean is deliberately blaming Sam according to Attie.It might be what attie was insinuating (She said he was used to not that he was consciously doing that) but how is she so sure about that.Is she a mind reader?
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-08 02:34
No, it's a fine line. It sounds like Sam vs. Dean to me. Fazzie has a point and I'm allowing the conversation up to that point. She's asking for clarification. I'll allow Attie to offer a reply in defense.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-08 02:53
Quote:
It sounds like Sam vs. Dean to me.
I will wait for attie's reply.But Attie's previous two comments did not have sam vs Dean.If I misunderstood where the Sam vs Dean is I apologize.
Attie
# Attie 2015-02-08 03:31
I don't know who I should even reply to with this.

Fazzie, that was not Sam vs Dean. That was an alternative explanation to your one that Dean just got carried away with things that he holds himself accountable for. Does Dean hold Sam to account for things he had no role in or things that Dean had an equal role in? Yes. That'scanon. I'm sorry you didn't like the comment but that does not mean it's Sam vs Dean or I'm rubbishing one brother.

Alice, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to 'reply in defence'. I didn't realise I would have needed to defend myself when I posted a comment that didn't agree with another poster.

annonymousN, thanks for your support. It's unfortunate thats considered an 'ambush'. I think I've realised, like so many other posters, that posting here isn't worth it because the odds seem to be very unfairly stacked on one side. If you say something critical of Sam then it's a 'differing opinion' and that's welcomed. If you say something critical of Dean and it's 'Sam vs Dean' and that's not.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-08 11:55
Quote:
I think I've realised, like so many other posters, that posting here isn't worth it
Hi Attie, don't leave us! Mostly people do like to chat and discuss. I have found your points interesting!
E
# E 2015-02-08 14:31
Good rebuttal Attie… it's only sad that the reactive atmosphere around here has forced you to have to do so. It seems that there is not much in the way of constructive disagreement with respect any more. People are too quick to claim they are bing ambushed and persecuted for there to be much in the way of meaningful discussion about the episodes or the characters, and claims like that bring any kind of meaningful discourse to a screeching halt. I agree with eilf, I like your comments, they are insightful and respectful. Please continue to post as I like reading your insights.
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-09 00:17
Thank you Attie for clarifying. I'm sorry, defense may have been a word choice. It honestly did sound like Sam vs. Dean to me, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and explain. You did, and I'm happy with that.

To clarify, there's plenty of criticism of Dean on this board! Sam too. There's honestly ill tolerance on both sides which is why these threads get so explosive. A pro Dean fan sets off a pro Sam fan and vice versa on too many occasions. Sam vs. Dean by our definition means attacking one character to build up the other. That's what we don't tolerate here. I'm satisfied you didn't do that, so we're square.

I hope you do continue to post, but I understand the apprehension. Our biggest frustration is that we can't get more people to engage in the comments. No wonder. The responses are often downright nasty and many posters aren't welcoming to differing opinions. There's way too many people flying off the handle too quickly, assuming one word or phrase means this or that or someone doesn't like a poster because they have a particular leaning toward one character. I do understand a lot of that comes from the passion of being a fan, but it sucks when you just want to talk about the show in a calm and intelligent manner. Nightsky and I are trying desperately to restore these threads to that tone. It's always been an uphill battle though.

Thanks again and I hope to see you on other, more calmer threads.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-09 06:10
Attie it is just the way you stated it came across as cold and without balance so hence my Sam v Dean thing.

I'm not trying to chase you from this board or any board, we are just going to have to disagree on that interpretation of things.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 15:59
And the Easter Bunny thing? I'm putting that into the crap writing pile aka the "OMG! Isn't this a cool idea? I totes have to use it!!!" I also want to salt and burn that idiotic scene with a young Sam hanging out the window, playing with the jet. I dunno, in his defense maybe Sammy was just bored, I mean there isn't a whole lot of things to do in the back of the Impala with Dean gone (lost on a hunt?) and I sincerely doubt John was the kind of guy to play that license plate game...but ick. At least Edlund apologized for his Grand Canyon cannon buster!
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-08 00:21
I so agree. The attention to continuity is laughable at times. These writers are going for more cute that substance a lot of the time.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 16:13
Honestly Fazzie? Both Sam and Dean girls are going to have to stop holding their collective breaths on that one cause it ain't gonna happen. Both of these guys have moved on and are showing it in their actions rather than saying it. No chick flick monents, remember? I'd rather have it that way. Words are cheap. These are grown men, what the fans are pining for borders more on fan fiction. I'm good with it the way it is now. The brothers are closer than they have been for sometime and getting stronger each episode. How could you not go thru what they did - Deans death and demonic status and Sams experiencing the death, disappearance, reappearance as a demon and the consequential save and NOT want to move on? They have reconfirmed their love and commitment for one another, you can't get better than that.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-02-06 16:38
That is the problem, I think. It's the fans who can't move on. We couldn't move on from the stupid phone call in season 4, we couldn't move on from the damn amulet and now we can't move on from who needs to apologize to whom (:p). The guys are long past all of it, and we're still writing fanfic about it. Damn this show.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 08:36
Sorry it double posted and I can't work out how to delete.
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-08 00:26
Actually, I don't allow posts to be deleted. If you see a double post (which does happen thanks to little server hiccups here and there), just edit it with the worlds "double post". I'll usually unpublish it eventually. Thanks!
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 08:42
I completely agree that there are a lot of fans who need to get over themselves on this one, JC isn't helping on that score but it seems the fans are holding on more and more than the boys are. Hell it would probably close down so many boards if we all did :P

I kind of think self acceptance and apologises could bring them to a more healthy and smarter place, sure but as you said they are committed to each other more than they have been in a long time but it would also cut out any push in the story as they'd be more open and less likely to do stupid things to save the other and others around them as character growth would be done.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-07 08:51
With respect fans do not really need to get over anything. Whether it makes for uncomfortable reading or not.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-07 09:19
Click on the Report button - the poster is coming across as abrasive and condescending.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-02-07 09:09
I understand that we disagree on how we view this situation. I do not appreciate being told I need to "get over myself" for my views. Even if Carver came out and said it to the entire fandom, I would not feel that I need to not discuss how I feel about the characters and how the show is portraying various of their actions.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 12:48
Percy it was humour and I kind of included myself in the remark saying if 'we' all did the boards would close down.
Prix68
# Prix68 2015-02-09 07:11
With all due respect, this discussion started with Dean needing to forgive himself. Sam said Charlie forgave him and now he needed to forgive himself. Forgive himself for the things Dean has done while being a demon and having the MOC. That discussion verved off into Dean needing to apologize for the posession. The show seems to have dropped the possession sl in my opinion and I will be surprised if it is brought up again in the context of an apology by Dean to Sam. Yes, you are certainly free to dislike what the characters did and have done and discuss it but the show and Sam and Dean, in the context of the show, have moved on. Wanting the show to do something and discussing it and discussing what the show is actually showing us at this time are two different discussions. IMO. This is a threads discussion. We are supposed to be discussing where we think the show is taking us NOW. The possession has not been brought up this season. I believe JC feels he ended that sl in the season finale, whether we like it or not. We are stuck in a discussion loop that, if the show has moved on from, we can not solve but only feel frustration and anger about. That is what the bitterness thread is supposed to be for.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-09 14:27
Nicely said. The frustrations people feel are real and are there but it does appear the Show has moved on. If there ever is an apology from Dean, it's going to just be a general one as opposed to addressing specifics. Dean and Sam are showing their love, forgiveness and solidarity by their actions - at this point with all that they have both been thru, I doubt that either are keeping an "indiscretion scorecard", if you will. I think they both just feel blessed that they have survived last year as well as Deans demonic possession and are presenting a combined front to defeat the MOC and save Dean. They are in a more healthy place than they have ever been and its beautiful to see. Team Winchester for the win!
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-07 10:14
Quote:
Though with regards to apologises the problem isn't that the boys haven't moved on from it, it is us that haven't moved on from it. Samfans want an apology for the possession and Dean fans want it for the purge.

I completely agree that there are a lot of fans who need to get over themselves on this one, JC isn't helping on that score but it seems the fans are holding on more and more than the boys are. Hell it would probably close down so many boards if we all did :P
Well, the show is for us, correct? So if the viewers feel unsatisfied with how storylines were handled, the writers should rectify that the best they can. Something like a missing apology is not a plot hole per se, it can be fixed with character development.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-07 12:28
Actually that is a point that is up for debate within the industry. . Obviously the writers need to write something that will be watched enough to stay on the air, but they have repeatedly said they go where the story takes them. The writers are months ahead of what the audience sees, so they *can't* take our reaction to a storyline into account when they are advancing an arc.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 13:05
But Nightsky, the SPN writers came out very specifically this season and said that they pay attention to what the viewers want and write accordingly. They also said that they never have the season end planned at the beginning of a season. Other show-runners have very specifically said they don't write to order (Vampire Diaries showrunner). You don't have to follow any of their (SPNs) public media access - such as Twitter - for very long to see that they do get a narrative from various noisy groups that they either include or make nods to (see 'Fan Fiction'), with other points of viewbeing greeted by them in surprise.

They either need a better way of hearing the audience and writing for all of us or not writing to order at all (which would be my preference since they would then have to follow through on storylines instead of leaving some hanging while they pander to others). At the moment they have the worst of both worlds.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-07 13:18
Quote:
The writers are months ahead of what the audience sees, so they *can't* take our reaction to a storyline into account when they are advancing an arc.
Yes, season ten has already been written but this specific issue arose during season nine. So if it won’t be addressed in the upcoming episodes, it’s not because the writers were unable to do so due to the scriptwriting being so far ahead of the airing of the episodes.
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-08 00:39
And Jeremy Carver has a policy. They don't look back. I do suspect that anything that played out in season nine is done and they've moved on, even if the fans haven't.

I'm not saying if that policy is right or wrong, but think of it this way. Only one episode so far in recent memory has addressed constant fan complaints, "Fan Fiction." It was basically saying "we hear you" but that doesn't mean they're changing the story. I personally didn't like that the amulet ended up being dealt with in an episode mocking (and also saluting) extreme fans. I would have rather seen it come up with the brothers organically. But yes, this is a whole other topic of debate.
E
# E 2015-02-07 10:15
Quote:
I completely agree that there are a lot of fans who need to get over themselves on this one,
-edited-. Make an argument for your views, not an insult against other's views.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-07 12:21
I deleted the 1 line that was aimed at specific posters.
Attie
# Attie 2015-02-06 16:15
I'm just wondering. Sam is going to die at some stage. Whether it be from hunting (which Dean wants him to do) or old age, either way, Sam is going to die. So, what happens then? If he just going to have to accept that he will be brought back again and again because that's just who Dean is? Some people want Dean to keep the Mark of Cain, which means he can't die. Where does that leave Sam? At eternity of dying of old age and then being brought back to life because that's what Dean wants? Is he never going to get peace because Dean doesn't want that? He's never going to get to meet Jessica or his parents again because Dean won't let him die? And if Dean dies first then what does Sam do? Dean won't want to be brought back, but we saw how Dean reacted when Sam didn't bring him back.

The funniest thing about this is that, for all Dean says 'That's not who I am', he has always been okay with Sam dying, as long as he's the one who dictates the manner of Sam's death. Season 4, he was willing to let him die as long as he died human. Season 7, he was going to strap his beautiful mind brother into a car and drive him off a cliff. Season 9, expelling Gadreel despite knowing Sam wasn't fully healed. So does Dean get to control when Sam both lives and dies?
Amyh
# Amyh 2015-02-06 16:34
Dont forget Season 2 when Jake killed Sam. Sam died 1) human. 2) a Hero (refusing to kow tow to Azazel). And 2) he went down 'swinging'. (which according to Dean is the most honorable way to die)
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-06 20:21
Quote:
Whether it be from hunting (which Dean wants him to do) or old age, either way, Sam is going to die. So, what happens then? If he just going to have to accept that he will be brought back again and again because that's just who Dean is? Some people want Dean to keep the Mark of Cain, which means he can't die. Where does that leave Sam? At eternity of dying of old age and then being brought back to life because that's what Dean wants? Is he never going to get peace because Dean doesn't want that? He's never going to get to meet Jessica or his parents again because Dean won't let him die?
We tend to forget that this is, and is supposed to be, a horror series. Horror - where bad things happen to good people despite anything they can do to prevent them. Even more horrifying is that wrongdoing perpetrated by someone who means well. The reason we don't see the horror in the episodes any more is because it is no longer the monsters causing it.

Or, you know, there is no internal logic to the story and it doesn't really matter what Sam wants, or is, as long as he is alive and a passenger.

To be slightly more serious, if the Cain and Abel story ISN'T supposed to reflect the fact that on several occasions Dean has made the decision to (or at least pointed out the fact that he ought to) remove Sam's life because he (Dean) is afraid Sam is going evil (Metamorphosis, Road Trip and the Rapture to name three episodes) then I don't see the point of it.

Sadly it has gotten to the stage where I honestly don't know what the show's opinion IS on whether it is up to a brother to take it on himself to kill his brother simply for what a third party says he might do. I really don't. They could come down on the side of 'Cain was right to kill Abel because who knows what Abel might have done with his free will?' and a large segment of the audience would buy it because it is what we have been told all the way through the series: it is the right and the duty of the older brother to make the decisions for both of them.

Seems pretty horrifying to me.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 16:34
-edited- Dean will bring 95 year old Sam back and then aged Dean and Sam can continue on with the "Family Business" - maybe that can be the spin-off they are searching for! I can picture it now - "Supernatural - The Geriatric Years"
We still don't know for certain that Dean is immortal. No one has ever addressed it yet. Was Deans demonic self activated with the First Blade being placed in his hand? Without it would he have just stayed in a limbo state? What did Crowley say? What Dean was feeling was not death, but a new kind of life? Fortunately the Cain ep is coming up soon so hopefully we will all get the answers we crave! I hate/love this damn show!!!!! ;)
Attie
# Attie 2015-02-06 16:43
--edited--

Either Dean will let Sam die or he won't. Apparently it's not in him to let him die, until he decides to kill him. It seems that regardless of what the Mark of Cain does to Dean, it seems that Sam has no say over the manner of his death or life because Dean has decided that the decision is solely his.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 18:19
Attie, Since I removed the line that made AlyCat22's comment sound condescending, I also removed your line about taking exception to her tone.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 18:15
AlyCat22 - Your comment is very valid, but joking sarcasm sometimes sounds the same as biting sarcasm. I made a slight edit so your comment would come across as more respectful... and just humor, as you state below was your intention.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 16:38
Amyh - do you really think that Sam wouldn't have done the same for Dean in Season 2 if the roles were reversed?
amyh
# amyh 2015-02-06 16:49
Alycat22....my answer lies in Wishful Thinking. Remember what Sam told Dean when Dean tried to encourage Sam to use the coin? Or even in the Fairie epsisode. What did Souless tell Dean afterwards on why he didn't take the leprecauns offer. That has always been Sam's stance in using the Supernatural to get what one wants.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-06 19:16
Dean felt awful about his father having made a deal for him. Sam witnessed all of that so I don’t think that he would have been as cruel or thoughtless as to bring his brother back only for Dean to have to live the rest of his life without his family and knowing that both his brother and father were burning in Hell because of him.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 16:47
Sylvia37 - Exactly! I don't think I could enjoy the show as much as I do if I held onto all the past like a pet that has to be fed and nurtured all the time! Im thrilled that they have moved on to the extent that they have. Do I think everythings forgiven? No, theres probably remnants like Angel Grace leftover but they are only human. The way its going now, it demonstrates that they are indeed growing, dare I say maturing. I'm loving the new and improved Winchesters!
Prix68
# Prix68 2015-02-06 17:00
AlyCat22 - Me too. I hate it when Sam and Dean fight each other instead of the big bad.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 16:53
Not condescending - humor.

Far as the line - Dean won't let Sam die - if you want to look at it that way, but I don't. Once again that is dredging up the past. How do you know that now, based on what Sam has experienced, that he won't act exactly the same way as Dean going forward?
Attie
# Attie 2015-02-06 17:08
Just to let you know, your 'humor' comes across like you're just talking down to people you don't agree with.

Dean said that it wasn't in him to let Sam die. You might decide to look at that some other way. The 'past' was last season. Or is discussing anything before the last episode 'holding onto' things? -edited- it is not possible to have a proper discussion without referring to the past because the past is what shapes the characters and their actions in the present.

If Sam does decide to do the same thing that Dean did then it will be discussed then. -edited- It would be very interesting to see what Dean's reaction would be in that hypothetical future considering how negatively he reacted when Sam tried to bring him back (season 4) and didn't try to bring him back (season 8). -edited-
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 18:26
Attie, I edited the parts of your comment that sounded a lot like personal attacks on others. Debate is welcome but we require everyone's opinion to be respected.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 16:55
Amyh - That was then, this is now. I think we are seeing a whole different ball game...
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 17:00
Amyh - And did Sam not use the supernatural to find Dean and then cure him? Sam is not above using the supernatural if the situation calls for it. Just sayin.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-06 17:52
I thought Crowley told Sam where Dean was.
Shante
# Shante 2015-02-06 17:37
hello, i just wanted to say that i keep track of how many episodes Sam has been unconscious-goi ng back to S9-14 episodes so far.
leah
# leah 2015-02-06 17:48
Huh, I wonder how many times Dean has. I remember him getting knocked out and handcuffed to a radiator. No one seemed too concerned about brain damage then either.:)
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-02-06 17:50
That's depressing. It's almost a third of the episodes.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 18:27
How many S10 episodes?? I was just wondering about this!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-06 18:46
there's a Wiki page for that (courtesy of your truly)

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Unconscious

Overall count is Sam 67, Dean 37

I think the Season 10 count is Sam 4, Dean 2
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-06 19:05
Wow.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-02-06 17:45
Nice job and well thought out. I loved the episode, but...

I am sick of the steady string of teenagers. I am sure the network wants the show to go after younger viewers, but it's a little late in the game for that, I think. Besides, it's the loyal fanbase that sticks with the show. The teenagers they want are a fickle bunch; they will come and go depending on what their friends are doing that night, what movie might be on that they want to go to, who they can hook up with at the mall, and what other show may come along airing at the same time as SPN. Honestly, I am sick of seeing the teenagers paraded through the episodes and hope next season the writers move on from that.

Although Glass did a decent job tying in the Hansel and Gretal thing, I am not a fan of having episodes about children's fables (although I did like Bedtime Stories back in the day). Oz is way too far out there for me, and although this one was done better, I think I have seen enough of those.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 18:41
LilahKane - I overlooked your post from earlier where your husband made the observation about Dean. Very interesting. "Shake it Off" indeed. I loved that little smile Dean made and the expression Sam had on his face before they roared off in the Impala!!!!!! Great end for that episode!
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-02-06 19:05
Yeah, I put it up just a little while ago as Nightsky was talking about the use of teenagers.

My husband talks a lot with me about Supernatural and its episodes. He is not affected anything online so he says how he sees them. I wish I had a tape recorder to capture everything he says so I could add his quotes more often here. Anyway, he has also manly way of course to see things. We also have difference of opinions about it. He dislikes Rowena really bad and hopes Crowley ices her. I am giving the character a benefit of the doubt still etc. But he expresses what he likes/dislikes in calm and respectful manner and he is really into Supernatural. :D

The thing we agree on the most is that we hated Leviathans. ;)

- Lilah
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 18:50
Cheryl42 - Crowley did. I was referring to summoning the CRD to torture for info, or setting up Lesters deal not to mention the use of the "cure" itself? Not as drastic as bringing someone back to life but supernatural means all the same.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-06 20:19
Quote:
not to mention the use of the "cure" itself? Not as drastic as bringing someone back to life but supernatural means all the same.
It’s using supernatural means if making holy water or performing an exorcism is using supernatural means. The blood cure boils down to using purified blood (a priest can bless it or a confession will do) and little Latin. That’s not to say that keeping a demon trapped doesn’t require some knowledge about the supernatural.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-07 05:43
we are also forgetting one thing - Dean was a demon and either needed to be cured, or stopped.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 19:33
"Supernatural Quotes by LilahK's Husband" - Sounds good!!! Doooooooo it!!!!! :) Tell him it's a necessary experiment in gender studies of the supernatural. We could always use more input from the men! The fact that he isn't vested in it is even better. So we would have the best of both - unbiased observations and the male POV. ;)
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-07 10:01
VERY interesting, because my husband's few comments on the episode also included thinking that using "Shake It Off" was important! He specifically picked up on that! Coincidence that both husbands caught the same thing?

I find my husband's observations insightful, specifically because 90% of the episodes are written by men. I often think the writers' messages are interpreted the way they were intended by the male members of the audience. As women, we read entirely different and certainly additional motivations, meanings etc into the writing.

I succeeded in getting my husband to write one article to express the male point of view (it's in Nightsky's list of articles on ChiCon14). He's always asking me to post his POV for him but I keep telling him my 10 hrs / day on WFB don't need to be increased by now representing two people's opinions!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 19:43
And I hated the Leviathans so we three have that in common! I think the straw that broke the camels back on that supposed Big Bad for me was the one with the female Realtor. Instead of being this dark menance they went with that? Bleh. I did like how they portrayed them in Purgatory tho! Oh, and Dick Roman was about as scary as my High School Principal.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-02-06 19:52
High school principals are scary... :D

- Lilah
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-02-06 19:55
Oh! and even though I put a video also to Alice's article I thought I would add this also from one that makes great videos. It is a good one in relation to this episode and the discussion about it.

I would call this: The BEST parts of "About a boy".

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB2ePeHt2us[/video]

- Lilah
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-06 20:09
I LOVE that Lilah. Those scenes alone were worth watching the episode. :D
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-06 20:27
That is absolutely wonderful!! I laughed all the way through it!!:D
I'm going to see if I can find it on YouTube so I can post it to our video page!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 20:44
Very appropriate. Thanks Lilah!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 20:58
San - It's all comes down to knowledge of the supernatural and using such knowledge as they feel needs to be depending on the situation they find themselves in. Summoning demons, casting spells, sigils...they use the supernatural to get what they want on a regular basis. Sams not above making a deal to trade himself anymore than Dean ("I don't want 10 years, I don't want 1 year, I don't want candy..."). It all comes down to how desperate they are as to how far they will let that knowledge take them.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-06 21:14
Of course the Winchesters use their knowledge of the supernatural to their advantage. However, a demon deal or a magical coin that grants wishes and the like are not the same as using some of the tools of the trade such as curing a demon.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-07 01:01
Hmm, I am not so sure I buy that demon cures do not involve the supernatural. If you or I can't do it then I think it must be considered supernatural means. Demons supernatural by definition. Plus the tools of the trade often have supernatural properties. Maybe I don't understand your point.

I came on in the middle of a conversation so I withdraw my question. I just thought you were talking about what was supernatural "means". I see now that there is a larger argument.:)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-07 05:45
agree San.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 21:41
How do you figure? It all comes under the heading of "supernatural" - good or bad. Neither Sam or Dean are above using either if the situation calls for it. Both have attempted to sell oneself for the other. Dean was successful, Sam was not. Not for lack of trying or desire but because the CRD's were told not to deal. If they had then Dean would be topside, Sam tormented in Hell in Dean's place. So in spite of the fact that Dean would've been the surviving brother who would've suffered the loss and have to live with the knowledge of his brother in Hell, Sam still made the attempt. So Sam has shown in the past that he hasn't been above using the supernatural to get what he wants (as Amyh had stated in her earlier post). Whether either would make a CRD now? No. But if there were some other viable supernatural means? Mayyyyybeeee.
SanSummer1
# SanSummer1 2015-02-06 22:07
You really don’t see that there is a fundamental difference between making a deal with a demon, an angel, a fairy or some other supernatural entity vs. utilizing the knowledge of how to cure a demon by injecting purified blood?
E
# E 2015-02-06 23:02
I get ya San… of course there's a difference. It's probably best to just move on. This point is going nowhere fast. :D:D
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-06 22:54
Yes, but it still all comes under the heading of supernatural. I'm lost. I don't even know what your point is anymore? Amyh had just made the statement that Sam is above using supernatural means to get what he wants. My point was that neither Sam or Dean are.
E
# E 2015-02-06 23:40
Quote:
The anecdote about Sam believing in the Easter bunny established a life-long pattern of Sam holding out hope against reason. He has always seen “the light at the end of the tunnel”. He has always kept them going with his faith
Ah, nightsky you are far more generous than I am. It's not that I disagree so much as I think you are giving the writer far too much credit here. I only wish that your interpretation was true. Actually, I would have been really on board with the whole "Sam has always had faith in Dean" idea had the Easter Bunny situation felt like anything other than the mean spirited mockery of Sam as a child that it was; he's done it before. AG has shown child Sam in a bad light in several episodes… as a clueless rube with a toy airplane and now as an immature 11 year old who can't even deduce reality without the help of his oh so wise older brother. It's well known that AG fantasizes himself as Teen Dean. He even tweeted the following (rather nauseatingly, self serving) tweets:

"The story Dean tells really happened to me. #Royal motel 101 things to do with Macaroni and cheese. #supernatural"
and
"Pulled a Dean Winchester. Put it on my grave. #supernatural"
and
"Talk about going out in a blaze of glory. Dean kicks ass. #Supernatural"
and
"I put #TeenDean right up there with Henry Winchester and Abaddon as my favorite contributions to #Supernatural -"

I find the last one particularly irritating because it makes it sound like AG came up with Dean as a character all on his own. He's preoccupied to an alarming degree and has no issue with making Sam look like a fool to further his love affair with all things Dean. It's creepy.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 00:03
I was thinking it was more like with all the crappiness surrounding their lives it was the one good supernatural thing to believe in. Maybe it wasn't real but maybe he wanted to hold on to the possibility that it was so that at least not all supernatural things had to be bad, otherwise it's all pretty dismal and depressing. If I were young and in that situation, I know I would hope that out of all those creatures, beings, whatever that at the very least one of them didn't want to eat my face off. Santa Claus was already nixed, what's left? Leprechaun? No thanks. Tooth Fairy? He's no fun. Easter Bunny at least brings you candy and sounds relatively harmless. So it's either that in my mind or it's just crappy writing with no ill intent.

Off topic - I watched Friday 13th yesterday and be still my racing heart. Jared was drop dead gorgeous in that. The tight T shirt alone and then they had to have him riding a motorcycle. Why they never presented him that way on Supernatural? The hair alone was worth the price of admission! I loved him with slight bangs.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 01:25
Leah - You popped in on a middle of a conversation/la rger argument which I myself have lost track of and am having difficulty understanding/f ollowing so don't feel bad. But what you said you were kinda picking up on my point. So thanks for trying to offer some clarification, I wasn't getting my thoughts across in a coherent way. :)
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 14:51
Alycat there is a reply button down the side of each thread, you might be losing track of your replies and where the discussion is because you start a new thread with each response. Just letting you know.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 15:16
Thanks Eilf! I thought since I post as a guest that that option wasn't there for me! Makes things a lot easier!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 12:10
Fazzie - Thanks for your comments. Sorry that you are getting a negative response. I understand what you were saying, you just made the mistake of not wording it in an acceptable way. In fairness I don't think Fazzie meant that phrase to come across quite the way it did. Fazzie was just agreeing with me not trying to incite all of fandom nor trying to dictate how you watch or what you say.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 12:38
njspnfan - In regards to your post about the Spear of Destiny... I had made a previous post quite awhile ago talking about the same thing and nobody seemed to think it was important!!!!! WHAT? THE SPEAR?!? What did Dean call it? 'God's Little Toothpick' - HOW can that not be important somewhere down the line. I can see the third item - that little box being a throwaway, and I figured we'd eventually find out what the carved item was (tho if anyone had told me then that it was the Key to Oz, I would've known to just skip that episode - soooo not a favorite), but the Spear? Wow. So, foreshadowing? How can they bring up such a heavy duty religious artifact and not address it eventually? Who knows what powers it may hold? Will it be instrumental in the fight against the MOC? Counteract the effect? So I've just been waiting patiently to see when Show will bring it up again and in what way. Heck, they could've told Cas that they had it - I'm sure he would know something! Where do you think they might go with it?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-02-07 14:07
Alycat22 - To be honest, I didn't pay much attention the first time around; but after the one artifact turned out to be the key to Oz, I started thinking, why would they make special mention of this? Especially given that it is a very important thing in many Christian religions. I think you're right - it's going to be a factor somewhere down the road but no clue on how, what, or when.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 13:08
Nightsky - I just read it! Smart and a Supernatural fan that embraces your love for the show too? He's definitely a keeper!!! Great article. This just makes me want to hear his input even more now!!!

"Deep Supernatural Thoughts by Impalafan" Yaaaaasssssss!!!!!!!!!

(That was an old SNL reference in case no one caught it - remember "Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey"???)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 13:37
I'm sorry but I don't understand all this foot stomping. The Show is the Shows to write. Why does anyone think TPTB, the Showrunner or the Writer's should have to bend to what the fans want? I don't want to watch a show dictated by the fans - what a mess that would be. If Show was so hepped up as to what we like/dislike do you think we would still be stuck with the Nepotism Duo? Don't you think Cas would've taken up permanent residence in the MOL bunker? Dean would be on an apology tour. God forbid that the guys would be expressing more feelings, wearing their emotions on their sleeves... It's because of the fans nonsense that we don't get the interaction between Cas and Dean that we once enjoyed. It's their sandbox, not ours. The only people that they have to listen to is the CW. If the network wants to see more teenager to appeal to a target demographic then like it or not, that's what we are going to see. As entertaining as it all is for us, it's still a business. For whatever amount that there may be at this point? I'd rather see less fan influence example being writers on Twitter... Yes, its important that we like what we see because they need viewership but that doesnt mean we should dictate the show. We might not like some of the things done to our characters but if we are looking for a 180 or even a revisit to the grievance... but if it doesn't fit their storyline it isn't going to happen.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-07 13:56
I would refrain from the foot stomping remark. Personally I am not interested in whose sandbox it is any product regardless is open to scrutiny and I have never hidden my feelings over how Sam is treated.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 14:11
I stand by my foot stomping remark. It is a figure of speech. I'm not dictating to you how you phrase your sentences, please allow me the same courtesy. If that is how I view fandom at this time in general, it is my right to say so. And I do, so I said so. My view does not have to coincide with yours. Obviously we all have our own opinions. It's exhausting having to worry about how a simple word or phrase may set off a poster here. Once again if I ever intend to make such a post, it would not be ambiguous. But I haven't intentionally done so nor do I intend to. My posts arent targeted to specific individuals - if you think you see yourself represented in my post, thats not something I can control. I have to think that if I were a Sam girl that I wouldn't be under all this scrutiny...
Prix68
# Prix68 2015-02-07 14:25
A point well stated AlyCat22!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 15:14
Thank you!
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-07 14:35
You can stand by your rematk as much as you like as I will stand by mine. I did not see myself in your remark as I do not consider what I say as foot stomping but was merely pointing out how I see things it was hardly a ranting post . I would say that to anybody so with respect do not bring into I am a Dean girl so therefore I am being singled out. It was not a comment that deserves that kind of treatment.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-02-07 14:47
Edited by Alice. You are just causing trouble with this comment. Stick to the topic.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-02-07 14:39
AlyCat - very well put.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 15:14
Thank you!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-07 15:26
Quote:
I have to think that if I were a Sam girl that I wouldn't be under all this scrutiny
believe me it wouldn't matter. If you present an opposing POV you are going to get a discussion with evidence, direct quotes, intentions and emotions. This isn't a Sam girl vs Dean girl issue. I, as a Sam girl but also a brother fan will get a healthy argument if someone disagrees with what I post. If I can defend my position I will. If I can't I will concede or agree to disagree and move on. But if I continue to argue the point I know I will get an argument. It doesn't matter which brother I favor.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 15:50
No problem. The scrutiny I am referring to is over my chosen use of a phrase. Everything else as you pointed out is to be expected and fair game. I'm not arguing or debating a post, I was responding to someone telling me to refrain from my remark. I explained where I was coming from and asked for the same courtesy and I'm sorry, no offense meant but I do see more Dean supporters called out. Agree to disagree. Maybe it's less obvious when a poster is agreeing with, supporting what is being said, but it's there.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-02-07 16:19
Well as I said if you argue a point I don't care which side you are on you are going to get a debate. A few months ago I was engaged in a pretty heated debate that lasted several days over the episode Bad Boys (an episode I really liked-yes Sam girl). It didn't matter which brother I favored. But I knew if I continued to argue the point I was going to get an argument and I did. I don't always agree or support everything that other fans post. But I do respect that they have a POV and have every right to express that POV no matter how many times they express it. If I disagree and feel the need to express my disagreement I know going in that I will get a debate. If I feel persecuted for my opinions I have a report feature that I can use. Like I said....Sam girl.....But I will defend Dean to the death.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-07 16:45
Well said.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 16:50
Edited by Alice. I think you totally misunderstood Cheryl42's post. She was just saying that people that don't agree with a post get vocal here, whether you are a Sam girl or a Dean girl. I'm removing the rest of this chain because it's not relevant to the topic.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-07 17:06
Edited by Alice. Wow, this is a pretty serious glitch. I won't even allow me to remove all the duplicates through the front end. I'll have to get it by editing the database. No problem, you did nothing wrong.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-07 17:08
The poster in question is me and while I appreciate you think what I said some how stepped on your rights. The 'phrase' in question was a unnecessary one as some might not like their views as seen as stomping their feet. If you feel the need to use that phrase by then all means do however do not paint it as though I am some sort of bad guy who infringed on you as either a Dean girl or poster.

As I do not wish to turn this into a bigger thing than it started out then I will not comment on this futher .
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 17:19
Giggle. Sorry for laughing Sharon but the timing of that particular glitch was pretty funny, considering your last line :D

*fingers crossed it doesn't happen to me*

*hits reply*
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-02-07 17:47
I know honestly it so embarrassing all I did was hit the reply button and it seems to of gone nuts.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 16:02
This is very well put Cheryl. And after all that is the point of discussions.

I do think there is a difference between people discussing their opinions about the show while not agreeing with someone else's opinions (or as a result of seeing a post by someone that they don't agree with), versus making comments about their opinion of other posters opinions, which is unlikely to go down well.

Sometimes it is hard to remember there is a difference, but there is.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 16:18
Edited by Alice - No, again I think we have a misunderstandin g. Elf wasn't calling you out AlyCat22. She was clearly replying to Cheryl42.

Eilf's overall point, which I do agree with, is that there seems to be this nasty habit by many people on this thread (not to mention others) that people aren't keeping their posts focused on the topic at hand. They're getting into bitter debates about post tone and misinterpretati ons of wording and then a whole debate breaks out on people's posst and the context of those posts rather than sticking with the original discussion topic.

I'll set some guidelines, and this is for everyone. Unless a post is a direct reply to you, don't assume someone is talking about you. The post clearly says who the reply is to, so try not to get involved in someone else's comments to another poster unless you are specifically called out. I would prefer at this point everyone stay on topic, not call out other posters or discuss their behavior. I especially don't like calling someone a Sam girl or Dean girl and that is a violation of our rules. The fact is, no matter what our preference, we all have to get along on this board and all types are welcome to post. Some of the comments may rub the wrong way, but whoever doesn't agree with a post should give a respectful rebuttal. I know that isn't always happening, but that is what we expect.

If you do have questions about the expected behavior on this board AlyCat22, feel free to send me an email. We can discuss offline.
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 16:50
Edited by Alice - I'm just removing this whole chain because it's not relevant to the discussion. I edited the posts above this one too, so this was a reply to a changed post. I support what you're saying, but perhaps we've just had a giant misunderstandin g here as well as some weird technical glitches.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-07 16:27
Hi Cheryl, I couldn't agree more. I am a Dean leaning bro fan as you know. I think the key here is HOW someone responds. We all get our feathers ruffled. But to keep arguing the same point post after post is just counter productive. Why the combative tone, it's not necessary? You can argue a point without being condescending to the other posters. Even if you disagree you can at least try and empathize with how people feel. I think there needs to be a lot more of agree to disagree and move on!!! I come to the site lately and see this type of thing every day, it is getting so tedious. Not the opinions, the sniping.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 18:27
Edited by Alice - LEAH was conversing with Cheryl42. The reply here isn't relevant to the topic.
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-08 00:59
This comment was reported, but I'm allowing it, if anything because AlyCat22 makes one very good point.

As a moderator, I'M exhausted over how people tend to blow up over one word or phrase. It does set off people too easily and then suddenly I'm getting tons of reports and messages about disrespectful posters. I come to these threads, read, and don't understand what the big deal is or how things get escalated too far so fast. This particular thread blew up faster than Nightsky or I could possibly keep up. Come on, it's the weekend, we have lives.

Please, I implore everyone, take comments with a grain of salt and stick to your points. Heck, I might even make that a new rule. DO NOT get bent out of shape over one word or phrase. Stick to the context of the post.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 14:17
njspnfan - I think the reason I paid so close attention the first time was because they were cataloguing MOL artifacts and also because the writer had Dean specifically make a comment about that one item. The other two he just looked at, handled and sniffed. :) I loved that scene - it was kind of like Christmas morning watching him go thru the boxes, not knowing what they would have him find!!!
eilf
# eilf 2015-02-07 17:55
Hi Sharon Don't be embarrassed! It happens occasionally, it's just a site glitch
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-08 01:58
That was a pretty massive glitch! I had to go into the database to remove those records. That's serious. Maybe all this back and forth confused the server! But yes, Sharon did nothing wrong.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2015-02-07 18:28
LOVED THIS EPIDOSE FROM START TO FINISH. JAREDS FACIAL EXPRESSIONS MADE IT!

I HAVE A QUESTION FOR OUR SPN FAMILY HERE. MAYBE NOT THE RIGHT PLACE TO ASK, BUT HERE GOES. TO ANYONE WHO HAS GONE TO CONS & GOTTEN PHOTO OPS, AND AUTOGRAPHS. WHAT DO YOU DO WITH YOURS? I LOVE MINE, AND HUNG THEM UP. MY FAMILY THINKS IT IS A LITTLE CRAZY. MY SISTER SAID IT LOOKS LIKE A SHRINE. MY BROTHER-IN-LAW MADE A JOKE THAT IF JENSEN EVER COMES UP MISSING, HE WILL HAVE TO GIVE THE POLICE MY NAME. I SUPPOSE WITH IT ALL IN ONE PLACE; ALONG WITH ALL THE NOVELS, BOOKS, AND POP VINYLS, IT IS A LOT. SOOO, CAN I GET SOME HELP HERE. AM I OVERBOARD? OR JUST A NORMAL SUPERNATURAL FAN?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-07 18:45
If Jensen ever disappeared the list of fangirls to be interrogated would be endless!!! Lifes too short - if immersing yourself into the Supernatural fandom makes your happy - go for it! There are so many different avenues you can take to find enjoyment in. Boards, reviews, DVDs, music videos, Supernatural books, fan art, fan fiction... If I could afford to go to a con to meet those 2 gorgeous men, I'd do it in a heartbeat. As far as that picture goes? Display it because everytime you look at it you will think about all those good memories!!! Let that freak Supernatural flag fly!!!
Alice
# Alice 2015-02-08 02:09
Okay, now that all the comments have been moderated and glitches fixed, I'm issuing a VERY STERN warning. I'll bullet point it.

Stay on topic.
Do not get bent out of shape over one word or phrase. Do not belittle, berate, insult other posters because one word, one phrase, on sentence says something you do not like or "implies" something that isn't clearly stated.
Heated debate is perfectly okay, but stick to the topic.
Do not state in your posts that your comments would be better received if you were a Sam fan or if you were a Dean fan.
Do not call out other posters on their behavior in the comments. There's a report button guys if you don't like behavior.
NO ganging up on one poster because that person has an opinion that is not in agreement of yours. All opinions are relevant and welcome, even if it's unpopular to some on this board.
Stay on topic (I hope this one is getting across).
Check the replies. Make sure before you go off on a reply that the reply is actually to you. It does say clearly who's comment a reply is to.

Have doubts? Here are our rules: http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules

Thank you, keep calm and carry on.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-08 21:49
I want to thank everyone for commenting all weekend long! Sorry I couldn't stay with you the whole time (Alice relieved me after comment #126!) , but I just had to get some things done at home before it started all over again for the next episode! I know it also got heated a few times, but I really appreciate those of you who stuck with it! I love hearing everyone's opinions; we just have to find a way to respect and tolerate dissent (I know we are better than the politicians of all our respective countries!) SPN Family has to stick together! Anyway, 2 more days before next ep, so plenty of time to discuss still! Carry On Always!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-02-08 22:43
Nightsky. After "No Place Like Home" aired, there was a discussion about how some fans wanted Sam to save Dean. My posted thoughts remain the same: In order to overcome the MOC, Dean has to forgive himself and accept himself and he will only do this with Sam's unflagging faith in him. Sam is Dean's Collette. In "No Place Like Home " Dean started taking an active role in saving himself by "living the clean life". This was the start of the new set up which I think is perfect. Dean is his own worst enemy as we know. In order for him to be fully redeemed he needs to save himself. Not because he is all so wonderful/ perfect but because he is seriously flawed. He is self loathing and his self worth is dependent on who loves him.... and how much he can give of himself to those he loves (he is self- sacrificing. ) Although Dean does love others, Sam is his focal point... he needs Sam to love him and he will give anything and everything to Sam. This love is flawed because Dean does not yet love himself and it is desperate at times and dependent. That's what got Dean into this MOC mess. Dean loves Sam so much he saved him at all costs... (Sam's possession by Gadreel.... resulting ripple effect including Kevin's death). Sam thinks Dean went too far and tries to tell him this and by answering Dean truthfully that no he, Sam would not go that far to save Dean.. This is normal and it is because Sam is healthier. (Unfortunate for us and Sam that the writers did not make this easy to see). But Dean in his tunnel vision sees it as Sam not caring for him, so he turns to the MOC and kamikaze mission. If Sam now simply saves Dean or forgives Dean then Dean knows Sam loves him but he never gets to the part where he loves/ accepts himself. So Dean himself has to get into this fight, the fight for himself, against the MOC to fully overcome it. Dean needs to be a healthier person and break the cycle of hating himself. This of course will requires Sam's love and faith. Again, Sam is the center of Dean's universe and the MOC story. Sam searched for him, used people to find Dean, believed in his brother enough to face Deanmon with a broken arm.... brought Dean home, brought him back from the pit of darkness of Demonhood, forgave Dean for going darkside and almost killing him. Sam stands by Dean now 100%; no snide remarks just faith in him every day. So the start of Dean's active role in saving himself is listening to and emulating Sam! It is Sam's wisdom of telling Dean to take control and how does Dean start to do that? By acting like healthy Sam... eat right, abstain from alcohol, do the research. Why does Dean choose this starter path to self preservation .... because Dean does not know where to begin to save himself and he really turns the corner by acting like Sam. Dean has to help Save himself to get to redemption but Sam is essential .... he is now Dean's rock and guide. In this story "About a Boy" Dean took another step forward to overcoming the MOC. He chose to face up to his adult life as it is, by returning to be an adult..... again Sam is the catalyst, Sam was in deep. So we have Dean once again doing what he is wired to do, saving Sam and sacrificing himself (no easy way out by staying a teen ). He experienced this all again, the love for others (Sam) and self sacrifice. This time we have a big change. Sam's reaction is key... he calls it pulling a "Dean Winchester" Sam now completely ACCEPTS Dean for who he is , the older brother who will always self sacrifice to save Sam. With Sam's acceptance of who Dean is, may be Dean will also accept himself and forgive himself. Together their family brother bond.... on this new level will beat the MOC. How exactly I cannot predict; but Dean has to accept his whole self as Charlie did and move on to win this battle... with Sam of course.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2015-02-10 14:11
I don't really agree with your take on things.

First, I think that Sam has always accepted Dean's self-sacrificin g nature when it comes to him. That's why he didn't get all that angry with Dean when he sold his soul, even if it basically destroyed Sam, and that's also why he thanked Dean for getting his soul back even if Dean had to bargain with Death. What happened last year was Dean sacrificing SAM to keep him alive, not sacrificing himself. You said it yourself, that Sam would never do the same to Dean, and I hope that the show is not saying now that Sam would in fact to the same, because it was so very wrong and unhealthy.

Secondly, I understand your point about Dean believing in himself, but what about Sam's own self-esteem? He hates himself just as much as Dean and feels like he's let his brother down over and over. Saving Dean would do wonders for Sam, and it would be way more fun to watch, than stoic, passively supporting, boring Sam who has NO plot and NO character exploration right now. Heck, I'd take Demon blood Sam at this point.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-02-10 20:16
On review of what I wrote I realize that I was not clearly stating what I meant. I agree with your point that Sam for the most part has accepted Dean's self sacrificing nature. I still think Sam telling Dean that he pulled a "Dean Winchester" is a key move forward. By making that statement Sam was telling Dean I know who you are, you ARE who you are.... and its fine- all of it. It was encouraging. Dean has to find the strength to really fight for himself the way he does for others. I think Sam's self esteem has always been at a much healthier level. Sam had the guts to do things for himself like go to college and also tell his Dad what he thought. Sam likes life a little more than Dean. Sam took on the trials because as he said he would not be on a suicide mission and he sees a light at the end of the tunnel. I agree Sam does have regret about letting his brother down repeatedly because Dean acts like a Dad sometimes and Sam has stated that he looked up to Dean. This is the same way Dean feels like he has let down their Dad. I agree it would be good for Sam to save his brother. AND I think he is doing it. Sam searched for Dean, used people to find Dean, believed in his brother enough to face Demon Dean with a broken arm.... brought Dean home, brought him back from the pit of darkness of Demonhood with a blood cure, forgave Dean for going darkside and almost killing him. I get that the part you find boring is that Sam is standing by Dean now 100%; no snide remarks just faith in him every day. I do not see it at stoic and passive but rather strong and wise. But really, this is what Dean did through the different facets of Sam. I will agree that at times Dean was much more judgmental and Sam does not do that to Dean. They are two different people. This is Sam's way of not letting down his brother but being his rock guide.
BookLady
# BookLady 2015-02-09 00:07
Hello Nightsky,

First of all, you and Alice work really hard on on these boards as moderators - a big thank you for that!

Now onto my observation about Season 10 threads - have you noticed the recurring theme of Family - often set in contrast to our beloved Winchester family? First,we had Cole going down the same dark path as John Winchester, but then returning to a family who loved and needed him. Then, there was Kate and Tasha with Kate choosing to kill her sister, unlike our brothers who always work to save each other, no matter what. Then there was the family in Ask Jeeves who didn't like each other and didn't have any family loyalty unlike the boys. Then DarkCharlie avenged the wrong done to her family while in contrast the brothers worked to save the little sister they never wanted but love just the same. In the latest episode Dean and Tina compared notes about their crappy childhoods due to absent fathers, but while Dean has Sam to keep him in the present as an adult, she doesn't mind having a do over since she has no one, just ex-husbands and lots of debt. Of course, there's also Rowena, the mother no one wants, not even the King of Hell, and Castiel, trying to right his wrongs of depriving Claire of her father. Last, but not least, is Cain who didn't have enough faith in his brother Abel to resist the lures of Satan so instead he killed him and became a demon - if we believe his story. I'm thinking a good, honest heart-to-heart might have stopped it before it began. Just extending that thought - if in Swan Song, Dean's unwillingness to let his brother die out there alone and his love buttressed by Home as represented in the Impala was key to helping Sam overcome Lucifer and do what needed to be done - then perhaps Cain's biggest sin wasn't in killing his brother but in having so little faith in him, not going to him, not talking to him, trying to work alongside him, not giving him the chance to make the right decision and maybe That will be the deciding factor in Sam and Dean overcoming the Mark. If Abel was secure in his brother's love, would he have been listening to Lucifer's lies? Would he have been tempted into becoming Luci's pet? What is Cain not owning up to - jealousy, too much pride, not being a loving big brother, not believing in his brother, not having faith in him?

I'm also thinking that Cain is going to hold Dean to his promise of killing him which Dean is going to be unwilling to do so he'll make Dean decide - either Dean kills Cain with the First Blade or Cain will kill Sam. When is Cain's next episode?
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-02-09 15:00
Thank you Booklady for giving us credit for at least trying to moderate comments! ;)

Quote:
Then DarkCharlie avenged the wrong done to her family while in contrast the brothers worked to save the little sister they never wanted but love just the same. In the latest episode Dean and Tina compared notes about their crappy childhoods due to absent fathers, but while Dean has Sam to keep him in the present as an adult, she doesn't mind having a do over since she has no one
I've been following and writing about the family theme all season, but I have to admit that I missed these two references! Nice catch!

Quote:
perhaps Cain's biggest sin wasn't in killing his brother but in having so little faith in him, not going to him, not talking to him, trying to work alongside him, not giving him the chance to make the right decision and maybe That will be the deciding factor in Sam and Dean overcoming the Mark. If Abel was secure in his brother's love, would he have been listening to Lucifer's lies?
I like this interpretation too! I think we'll learn a lot more from the Cain episode, but I don't think we'll know the final breaking point until the cliff hanger finale! I don't offhand know when Cain shows up again. Check on our spoiler page? Or does anyone else know? I try not to look too far ahead because that might influence my interpretation of episodes and thus my review write-ups.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-02-09 15:13
Cain comes back next week in the last episode before the mini-Hellatus. That may mean a mini-cliffhange r. Whatever happens we will have to wait until March 18 and the switch to Wednesdays to see what happens next.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-02-09 15:54
I'm all for the Winchester brothers hunting down and killing all Hellatus, mini or otherwise! Where's Sam and Dean when you need them?
BookLady
# BookLady 2015-02-09 00:34
Another thought I just had - even if finding Cain is not all the Winchester brothers hope it to be -meaning they don't get their answers, maybe they can still come up with a plan. Sam is goal-oriented and he's likely to keep his eyes focused on that prize which is freeing his brother from the Mark so even if Dean is deluged by feelings of fear, loathing, murder and is not thinking clearly, Sam will be, I hope he's written that way. Perhaps he will be able to trick, goad, finagle some useful information out of Cain or even Metatron that they can use. Sam is the one who will be keeping it together so they can move forward and get rid of the Mark. He's going to be the key. Anyway, I hope the writers see that. Yes, Dean has to battle the Mark himself, but Sam will be the one who is instrumental in him winning that fight. This battle involves brothers at the center, demons and angels are on the outer edges as they should be. Supernatural is, after all, Sam and Dean's story.
BookLady
# BookLady 2015-02-09 23:27
And, don't forget Hansel was a brother willing to eat his sister!

Interesting re-write of the fairytale since in the original Grimm's tale, it was Gretel who saved herself and Hansel from being eaten by the witch.

I'd like to think all these comparisons to unfavorable families/siblin gs are on purpose and will play into the resolution of the MoC storyline, but, like Alice, I don't have lots of faith in in this current show runner. He is so full of bs that's difficult believing he has much of a plan. At all. Just my opinion.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-10 18:36
Hi E and Jo1027, I didn't think I could fit this below your responses to me. I NEVER said Dean didn't trick Sam or didn't deceive Sam. I specifically stated that he did. I also said that the onus on was NOT on Sam on all! Why does the fact that I disagree with the MEANING of the question "what do I do?" get turned around to say that I am implying Sam was at fault. I never said or implied any such thing here or in any comment I have ever made so please don't put words in my mouth. I said Dean didn't intend to deceive that day but ultimately DID in a prior post. Jo, you are responding to me like I said Sam wasn't tricked? Did you read my post or any of the ones upthread in this discussion? And E, have I ever laid the blame for any of this on on Sam? No! You responded to Jo who was taking me to task for not thinking Sam was tricked when I clearly said he was. My one and only point was I didn't think the sentence we are quibbling over meant "Dean, tell me all about your plan". That's all, no Sam blame whatsoever. Why would I blame Sam? He trusted Dean to implement this plan and was duped. I did say Dean didn't start (that day) out planning to deceive Sam and I think that's fair.
E
# E 2015-02-10 22:03
Hi Leah.. honestly I am not sure what you are talking about, I don't recall claiming that you thought Sam was at fault; many fans do, but I never claimed that you did. If you could point out in my posts where I said that about you, I'd appreciate your showing it to me. Secondly, I don't believe that I put words in your mouth at all… here is my direct quote to Jo.

Quote:
I think you're right… maybe it was The Purge of the other ep where they had their fight in the kitchen. So many fans seem to be trying to mitigate Dean's guilt by blaming Sam (at least in part) for the possession that I think we've all forgotten that Dean also thinks he tricked Sam and pretty much said as much, and that deep down he knows what he did was wrong. Otherwise his taking on the Mark as punishment doesn't make a lick of sense.
I don't see any reference to you or to things you've said or how what I said here is even connected to you specifically. I never said anything of the sort and was speaking in general terms given this incredibly long and ongoing discussion we've been having with MANY people. This was in response to Jo remembering that Dean actually did say to Sam "I tricked you." I'd forgotten that he'd actually said that and was responding to her post specifically on that one topic. All I ever said about your posts is that we are going to have to agree to disagree on the nature of Sam's statement "What do I have to do." That's it; no blame, no forcing words into your mouth, no accusations… nothing. I am sorry you got offended, but quite frankly, I am not sure how you came to the conclusions you've come to. I'm absolutely baffled!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-10 23:06
E, I have no idea why Jo1027 felt the need to reply to me as if I said Dean didn't trick Sam, then point out that Dean admitted it (which I knew and never disputed) and that it was now canon. I had no idea what brought that on. I was singled out for something I didn't even say. So that bothered me to start with and then you replied to HER and seemed to be in agreement with her and in your post added "so many fans seem to be trying to mitigate Deans guilt by blaming Sam" I thought it was all directed at me, due to our discussion about the "what do I do" thing and if that was a misunderstandin g, I do apologize. Sorry E.
E
# E 2015-02-11 09:09
Leah, The fact that Jo's initial comment was in reply to you never even crossed my mind, I never even noticed….. I wasn't deliberately making any kind of connection there, honestly. I was really just focused on the fact that Dean had said "I tricked you;" I'd completely forgotten that and my post was more of an "Oh yeah…" moment. It had nothing to do with you. I know you don't blame Sam, and never have blamed Sam for the possession. I was trying to keep my post general by saying "Some Fans" so that I wouldn't single any one poster out and offend them in that way. There are plenty of people on here that are tying to make Sam responsible, at least in part, for the possession but I never thought or intended to imply that I thought you were one of them. I was hoping more that Jo's remembering that Dean actually said the words "tricked" would bring this whole debate to a close.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-02-11 19:25
We're good E, I overreacted. I should know better than to make an assumption about a reply to a reply. My bad. :(
E
# E 2015-02-12 08:35
:D:p No Problemo