I want to talk about "Rock And A Hard Place."  Specifically, I want to talk about the things I found hugely problematic. But before I do that, I want to make it clear that these are my opinions and my interpretations of what we were presented on the show. If you don't agree with my interpretation, that's fine. If you enjoyed the episode, that's fine. We are all entitled to our own opinions and interpretations of the material the show presents to us.

I was extremely disappointed with this episode. There are some horribly shady things Dean does, some consent issues, and lazy stereotyping of women. It's even more disappointing coming from a female writer, someone you would think could be more nuanced in her treatment of women in the episode. Even the villain, Vesta, who was grossly misrepresented historically in this episode, was a woman-hater.

The treatment of the chastity group

Chastity isn't for everyone. Hell, it isn't for me. But you know what? It is a perfectly valid choice for many people. The show had a chance to treat this topic with dignity and respect. Instead, they reverted to stereotypes.  There was the shrew, the bitch, the fat girl, and the hottie. They displayed cartoonish behavior: the shrew has no sense of humor; the fat girl steals cookies; the bitch is, well, a bitch. These women aren't presented as people. They're presented as things to laugh at, there for our amusement. No nuance. No subtlety. And as soon as some hot guy starts talking about sex, they're all hot and bothered. The show was basically saying that if you choose not to have sex, you're wrong. If you choose not to have sex, we are free to ridicule you. That's boring and predictable. That's insulting to people who do choose chastity. That's also lazy writing.

Dean and Suzy

This is the big one for me and the area where the show really dropped the ball as far as I am concerned. From basically the minute Dean saw Suzy, he decided that he wanted to sleep with her, to make her break her vow. That's sleezy. She's in a chastity group, the leader of said group, actually. But she's hot, so that HAS to be a mistake, right? Surely she should be having sex because she's hot!

But okay, whatever, Dean likes sex, so if he sees a pretty woman, he wants to have sex with her. Fine. I can handle that. I won't begrudge Dean finding comfort where he can because he lives a hard life, even if I do think he's being sleezy and not respecting Suzy's choice.

So he wants to have sex with her. Harmless as long as he doesn't, oh, lie to her about his intentions so she allows him to come home with her. Oops, my bad. That's exactly what he does!  Dean says he wants more reading material about chastity, wants to protect Suzy from whatever is making virgins disappear. And the protection thing is a valid concern. Virgins are disappearing. Notice that no one seems worried about the fat girl or the bitch getting home safely, though. No, Suzy is the one most worthy of Dean's attention because she is the most fuckable to Dean. So what the show is basically saying is that your worth as a woman is based on how fuckable you are to men. Just look at the camerawork. Suzy is made to look extra attractive compared to the rest of the women in the group.

Whatever, so Dean has a legitimate reason to head home with Suzy. Except then he goes and ruins that legitimacy by basically telling Sam the only reason he's going home with her is to sleep with her.  He's all wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more with Sam, and that is so slimy.  He’s treating her like an object.  Remember that Suzy has no idea that this is why Dean wants to accompany her home.  As far as she's concerned, he wants more information on the group and to protect her.

They head to Suzy's place, and Dean ends up alone, so he starts snooping around. Sleezy! She isn't a suspect in the case, and at this point in the episode they know all they need to know about her in relation to the monster, so there is no reason for Dean to be rifling through her drawers. So of course he finds the porns and realizes that's where he recognizes Suzy from and now he's really excited about the prospect of sleeping with her. Okay, fine. Lots of people have fantasies about sleeping with porn stars. And as show has repeatedly shown us, Dean is really into porn.

Now Suzy comes back and sees that Dean has found the movies she starred in, and she tells Dean off for snooping around her house. Ha ha, of course she doesn't. Now, some of you may be questioning why she kept copies of the movies in the first place. Well, to serve the plot. But really, sometimes people keep mementos to remind themselves of what they left behind, to remind themselves of what they don't want to fall back into, or to remind themselves of how far they've come. I think that's what these are for Suzy. She keeps them hidden away in a drawer, there to remind herself of what she's trying to leave behind.

Suzy then tells Dean off and kicks him out of her apartment for snooping around. PSYCH! What she does do is tell him she is embarrassed by the movies, that she's trying to start a new life for herself and leave the porn star behind. So then Dean tells her he understands, because if anyone knows about people wanting to start over, start a new life and try to better themselves, it's Dean. I mean, just the episode before this, we learned that Dean thrived at the boys home when he was given a chance to step out of the hunting life and live a normal one. So he totally gets it and respects her choice.

Ahahahahahahahaha, no he doesn't! No, what Dean does is tell Suzy he's a big fan (creepy) and that she was one of the good dreams (point to Dean for trying to tell her, albeit awkwardly, that she doesn't have to be ashamed of her past). Suzy is still unsure. Can't imagine why! So what does Dean do to convince her to have sex with him? Start quoting one of her Casa Erotica porns. That doesn't even make sense. Someone tells you they are ashamed of a movie and you then quote that movie at them? Then he goes further and starts role playing the porn. At which point Suzy FINALLY tells Dean he is being disrespectful at best and totally creepy at worst and kicks him out of her apartment since he now has the reading materials he came for and she is safely home.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no she doesn't! Dean's brutally awkward and horrible porn pick-up lines somehow WORK, and Suzy does a 180 and starts playing along and then sexy times happen. Set to cringeworthy mariachi music. So Dean gets his wish and has sex with Suzy.

Let's stop here for a minute because I want to really focus on how disgusting I find this setup. Let's take Dean out of the equation. Let's just take a look at this scenario without the benefit of knowing who Dean is and knowing that he is a good guy at heart.

Let's say you have a friend who used to be a sex worker. Let's say she worked in porn. Now said friend has decided to quit porn and start over, and as part of this she has decided to be chaste.  As part of this new life, she becomes the leader of a chastity group. Some members of the group go missing, which is weird, but your friend isn't too worried about it. She meets a guy at her chastity group who is good-looking, seems nice. It's his first meeting and your friend is the group leader, so when he says he wants more materials about the group, your friend lets him come home with her and invites him in. At this point in the story, I'm asking my friend why she let him in.  She could have easily told him to wait in the lobby of the building while she went to get the stuff he wanted. And if he was concerned about about her protection, well, she had made it home safely. He should have been satisfied. But she let him in because he was there and he seemed trustworthy. Then she tells you that she caught him snooping through her drawers and he found the porns she used to star in. She tells him that's not who she is anymore, and he talks about what a big fan he is and uses that information to try and get her to sleep with him.

What would you want your friend to do in this situation? Strange man in her apartment, he's bigger and stronger than her, and now he's found out her biggest secret, has confessed he's a fan, and is trying to use the knowledge to get your friend to sleep with him. Your friend has told this stranger that she isn't in porn anymore, that she wants to leave that life behind her. But he doesn't listen. At this point, I am hoping that my friend tries one more time to get rid of this person and if she can't then she gets out of the room and calls the police!

Really think about how you would react if this happened to a friend or happened to you. I would be horrified if this happened to someone I know.

Now, in the end, Suzy did say yes to sex. She consented. But did she really? Dean worked and worked and persuaded her. Is persuaded consent really full consent?  Dean just found out Suzy's deepest secret, one that she had been trying to hide, and he used it to get Suzy to sleep with him. That's reprehensible. That isn't the Dean I know. This show has a history with consent issues going all the way back to season 1 and demonic possession against one's will. This season is all about consent issues, what with Ezekiel inhabiting Sam's body by dubious consent, Castiel sleeping with April under false pretenses, and now Suzy and Dean. So far their track record hasn't been good with these issues. Castiel's encounter is laughed off, Suzy is never heard from again. Time will tell as to what happens when Sam finds out about Ezekiel.

After the fact, Suzy said she missed sex. But then later in the episode, she says she wasn't as strong as she thought she was and seemed to regret her decision. I'm really glad we got more focus on Suzy later in the episode so we know how that situation was resolved, so Suzy wasn't just some conquest for Dean and she had some depth. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, nope, we never heard from her again after her line about not being strong enough.

Am I mad that Dean had sex? No. He's allowed to have sex and to want to have sex. Am I livid about how said sex was presented? Absolutely. Apart from making Dean look like a complete and utter asshole, it was extremely disrespectful to Suzy and her character. This setup was lazy writing and COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY! You want to get Dean into a sex scene with a former porn star? Fine. I'll show you exactly how to do that, show, as I rewrite the whole setup. Ready? Here we go.

************

Dean approaches Sam after the group meeting.

Dean: Find out anything?

Sam: Nothing we don't already know.

Dean: All right, I'm gonna see if I can't get a list of the group's members from Suzy. I'd like to know how many people we need to worry about.

Sam: That's a good idea. I'll go meet back up with Jody and do some more research.

Dean: Okay. Man, it really is a shame about Suzy.

Sam: What do you mean?

*Dean waggles his eyebrows and gives his brother a look.*  She's hot, dude!

Sam: *bitchface* Dean, she's off limits. Besides, we're in the middle of a case.

Dean: Yeah, yeah. I get it. Don't get your panties in a bunch. I'll behave.

Sam: Whatever. I'll see you back at the motel.

Dean goes back to Suzy's house, doesn't act like a dick. He still snoops around when she's out of the room and finds the porns.

Suzy: What are you doing?

Dean: Um, nothing? I'm sorry, but, uh, this is you, right? Man, I am a huge fan!

Suzy: Yeah, that was me, but I don't do that anymore. I moved, changed my name, got a new job. I'm starting over. I don't want to talk about it.

Dean: Yeah, no, I get that. I do. *chuckles to himself*

Suzy: What?

Dean: It's just...man, you in these movies. It was one of the few good things in my life sometimes, you know? I mean, you were something special. To a lot of people, not just me. Seems like a shame to run away from that.

Dean smiles at Suzy, she starts to warm up to him. She comes closer.

Suzy: I do miss it sometimes. Not the porn. But sex. The connection with another person, even just for a night.

Dean: Yeah? I mean, yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean.

They both step closer, and now they're in each other's space.

Suzy: You know what I miss most of all?

Dean: What?

Suzy leans in to whisper her next line into Dean's ear.

Suzy: Someone's hands everywhere, tracing every inch of my body. Think you can help me with that, Dean?

Dean: Hell yeah.

They kiss and then sex scene.
************

That took me 20 minutes. And I’m an amateur, as you can clearly see. But look! I'm not pissed at Dean for being a sleezy asshole! Dean gave Suzy an out instead of pushing until she gave in! She's the one who took it to the next level! Dean still got to sleep with his porn star and I don't feel like I need a Silkwood shower from watching this on my TV screen!

Again, I want to reiterate that this is my interpretation for the events in this episode. But the fact that we even have to have this discussion means that this was a poorly written setup and scene. The fact that it was written by one of the staff's female writers makes it even more disappointing. At this point, I wish I could pretend I had never seen this episode that's how angry I am about it. "Supernatural" is better than this. Now they need to prove it to me.


Comments  

Juni Moon
# Juni Moon 2013-12-01 14:57
Well said, Ardeospina and double points for re-writing the script still sexy but smarter.
Juni Moon
# Juni Moon 2013-12-01 14:57
Well said, Ardeospina and double points for re-writing the script still sexy but smarter.
StarMinion
# StarMinion 2013-12-01 15:36
Thank you for this review and spelling out so very clearly the many troublesome aspects about it. A darn shame the writers seemed to drop the ball in this episode. =/ This was the hardest episode for me to get through ever and I felt embarrassed watching it. My favorite show shouldn't make me feel that way. =/
StarMinion
# StarMinion 2013-12-01 15:36
Thank you for this review and spelling out so very clearly the many troublesome aspects about it. A darn shame the writers seemed to drop the ball in this episode. =/ This was the hardest episode for me to get through ever and I felt embarrassed watching it. My favorite show shouldn't make me feel that way. =/
Luciano
# Luciano 2013-12-01 15:37
From Alice - Gee Luciano, you just don't know how to take a warning, do you? How you totally treat our "show respect" rule like it was garbage. I have given you multiple warnings and yet you still come here every week and spew disrespect. I'm not sure if you remember, but my last warning said if you did it again, you were banned.

Congrats Luciano - you are officially banned from the Winchester Family Business. You are not allowed to post here again. I'm blacklisting your IP from our commenting system.
Luciano
# Luciano 2013-12-01 15:37
From Alice - Gee Luciano, you just don't know how to take a warning, do you? How you totally treat our "show respect" rule like it was garbage. I have given you multiple warnings and yet you still come here every week and spew disrespect. I'm not sure if you remember, but my last warning said if you did it again, you were banned.

Congrats Luciano - you are officially banned from the Winchester Family Business. You are not allowed to post here again. I'm blacklisting your IP from our commenting system.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-01 15:38
Thank you for writing this: I was truly upset by Dean's portrayal in this episode, and it really put me aback. I've always connected strongly to Dean, flaws and all, but this episode was a major disconnect for me.

Not from Dean; from the writing team. I can't SEE that as Dean. Dean is a charmer, but he has never been the cartoonish perv they wrote him as within this episode, save in "Tall Tales" which was meant to be a gross exaggeration, and twisted all of the characters about.

I would have had no problems with the scene if it had gone as you've suggested; my problem isn't Dean having sex, my problem is that this season seems to have put us in a land of tasteless juvenile jokes, problematic concepts, and butchered characterizatio n of everyone.

No one is coming out of this season looking good: I don't see the promised "character development" that was lauded at Comic Con and all through the hiatus after season 8.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-01 15:38
Thank you for writing this: I was truly upset by Dean's portrayal in this episode, and it really put me aback. I've always connected strongly to Dean, flaws and all, but this episode was a major disconnect for me.

Not from Dean; from the writing team. I can't SEE that as Dean. Dean is a charmer, but he has never been the cartoonish perv they wrote him as within this episode, save in "Tall Tales" which was meant to be a gross exaggeration, and twisted all of the characters about.

I would have had no problems with the scene if it had gone as you've suggested; my problem isn't Dean having sex, my problem is that this season seems to have put us in a land of tasteless juvenile jokes, problematic concepts, and butchered characterizatio n of everyone.

No one is coming out of this season looking good: I don't see the promised "character development" that was lauded at Comic Con and all through the hiatus after season 8.
From Italy
# From Italy 2013-12-01 15:48
I really do agree. I couldn't say it better. I had issues with this episode and I found that your interpretation fits to my feelings. I'm so sad about the whole chastity group thing. Supernatural is able to get deeper in things and avoid banality. Sorry for this slide...
From Italy
# From Italy 2013-12-01 15:48
I really do agree. I couldn't say it better. I had issues with this episode and I found that your interpretation fits to my feelings. I'm so sad about the whole chastity group thing. Supernatural is able to get deeper in things and avoid banality. Sorry for this slide...
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-12-01 15:57
I guess you could look at it that way. I just saw Dean being Dean. When has he ever treated a woman, he was trying to pick up, any other way? Remember when he was a talent scout? Or worked for the agency? Or the F.B.I. rebel (who doesn't follow the rules)? I could go on; but really, what would be the point. He is always on the move. So when he gets a chance, he is always putting the moves ON someone. I guess that type isn't for everyone. So you are more than welcome to hate that type. I love it. With how he looks, wow! When I was younger; it would have worked on me to. Now granted, he won her over pretty easy. But, look at him!!
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-12-01 15:57
I guess you could look at it that way. I just saw Dean being Dean. When has he ever treated a woman, he was trying to pick up, any other way? Remember when he was a talent scout? Or worked for the agency? Or the F.B.I. rebel (who doesn't follow the rules)? I could go on; but really, what would be the point. He is always on the move. So when he gets a chance, he is always putting the moves ON someone. I guess that type isn't for everyone. So you are more than welcome to hate that type. I love it. With how he looks, wow! When I was younger; it would have worked on me to. Now granted, he won her over pretty easy. But, look at him!!
Nathy
# Nathy 2013-12-01 16:01
I wish I hadn't watched this episode, to be honest. It was offensive in so many levels that everytime I read someone defending it, I feel ashamed.
I don't have any problems with Dean having sex at all - go for it, man - I have problems with HOW it was presented and all the consent issues. I've read someone saying that "we're focusing only on the problems and hey, it's just a show and we should leave our political and social opinions behind and enjoy it" and I'm asking myself how am I going to do it? I need to be two different people, leaving my personal experiences and everything else and pretend that the "A + writing" doesn't affect me?

I don't have problems with sex at all and I think it's admirable to abstain from sex - I can't do it but I know people who do and please, they're far from being like the girls that were represented on the chastity group - and Supernatural has a history of mocking virgins for no reason. Really, should we laugh at it?

I'm glad to see that so many people have found it offensive and it wasn't just me (I had friends mad at me because I've ruined their episode), however, given Adam Glass' lack of understanding of constructive criticism, in a while we'll see tweets stating how those who found the episode offensive as a bunch of haters. It's too sad.
Nathy
# Nathy 2013-12-01 16:01
I wish I hadn't watched this episode, to be honest. It was offensive in so many levels that everytime I read someone defending it, I feel ashamed.
I don't have any problems with Dean having sex at all - go for it, man - I have problems with HOW it was presented and all the consent issues. I've read someone saying that "we're focusing only on the problems and hey, it's just a show and we should leave our political and social opinions behind and enjoy it" and I'm asking myself how am I going to do it? I need to be two different people, leaving my personal experiences and everything else and pretend that the "A + writing" doesn't affect me?

I don't have problems with sex at all and I think it's admirable to abstain from sex - I can't do it but I know people who do and please, they're far from being like the girls that were represented on the chastity group - and Supernatural has a history of mocking virgins for no reason. Really, should we laugh at it?

I'm glad to see that so many people have found it offensive and it wasn't just me (I had friends mad at me because I've ruined their episode), however, given Adam Glass' lack of understanding of constructive criticism, in a while we'll see tweets stating how those who found the episode offensive as a bunch of haters. It's too sad.
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-01 16:07
Yeah, Dean did try to have sex with her, but when he tries to make his move he ends up praying with her. Really, Suzy is actually the one to initiated the flirting with him, once Dean finds the videos he goes pervy fanboy (which is totally in character), and tells her how she's the good memories and all that, that's when she makes the first move - just look at Ackles' face it goes from normal to an "oh, shit is really happening."
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-01 16:07
Yeah, Dean did try to have sex with her, but when he tries to make his move he ends up praying with her. Really, Suzy is actually the one to initiated the flirting with him, once Dean finds the videos he goes pervy fanboy (which is totally in character), and tells her how she's the good memories and all that, that's when she makes the first move - just look at Ackles' face it goes from normal to an "oh, shit is really happening."
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2013-12-01 16:10
Hallelujah, Ardeospina.

You are really, REALLY speaking my language, girl.
This is 'exactly' the reason that I hated this episode with the passion of the thousand suns and I can honestly say, this episode is the worst episode of the entire series for me, honest to God. And it's too freaking bad since there were some great parts, like Sam and Jody and the end scene, but they were all grossly over shadowed by the a-hole that was DW in those couple of scenes. I'm just gutted.

This is NOT the Dean Winchester I know and love. It is not. And yet it was, it's canon now, thanks to the woman(!) writer who penned this one.
I'm so dissapointed and disgusted at the way Dean was treated here.

I'm hoping against hope there initially was something more in that "seduction scene" that then got cut, but will be available on the DVD or something, because if the script was like this from the jump?? Hell no.

Thank you for voicing your opinion. It's been a bit depressing reading only positive reviews when I feel the complete opposite about this episode. I truly wish I could enjoy this episode like so many do, but I can't help the way I feel about it and the way they treated Dean's character was really shitty, to put it mildly.

Epic fail, Show. Epic fail, J. Klein.

Now I'm going to pretend that this episode never existed and I can guarantee this one will never get a rewatch from me.


Thanks Arde.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2013-12-01 16:10
Hallelujah, Ardeospina.

You are really, REALLY speaking my language, girl.
This is 'exactly' the reason that I hated this episode with the passion of the thousand suns and I can honestly say, this episode is the worst episode of the entire series for me, honest to God. And it's too freaking bad since there were some great parts, like Sam and Jody and the end scene, but they were all grossly over shadowed by the a-hole that was DW in those couple of scenes. I'm just gutted.

This is NOT the Dean Winchester I know and love. It is not. And yet it was, it's canon now, thanks to the woman(!) writer who penned this one.
I'm so dissapointed and disgusted at the way Dean was treated here.

I'm hoping against hope there initially was something more in that "seduction scene" that then got cut, but will be available on the DVD or something, because if the script was like this from the jump?? Hell no.

Thank you for voicing your opinion. It's been a bit depressing reading only positive reviews when I feel the complete opposite about this episode. I truly wish I could enjoy this episode like so many do, but I can't help the way I feel about it and the way they treated Dean's character was really shitty, to put it mildly.

Epic fail, Show. Epic fail, J. Klein.

Now I'm going to pretend that this episode never existed and I can guarantee this one will never get a rewatch from me.


Thanks Arde.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-12-01 16:11
You have made me consider this episode in a whole different way than the way I saw it. I saw Suzy attracted to Dean from the beginning, and there were levels of flirting going on for both of them. And, they both enjoyed themselves and neither seemed to be regretting it in the afterglow. Also - I may make decisions about my personal life - but I am an adult and have the right to change my mind about those decisions and I would consider it patronizing for someone to decide that I was being abused, treated badly, etc., because someone gave me another option or presented a temptation. I do not believe we women are fragile flowers to be protected from temptation. Just my feelings.

As to the stereotypes of the women in the group - maybe so, although I belong to a book club, work in an office with six people (4 guys and 2 women), am on a board with 3 other women, and have 3 best friends (women) that I hang out with a lot. And, upon meeting the members of each of those groups for the first time, I bet a stranger would see those stereotypes in each member of the group. (I will not share which I would be). Once they got to know us, they would see each person has many dimensions, but first impressions tend to be one dimensional and lead to stereotypes. So - did not bug me in the show since I understand it takes time to get to know people and one meeting just shows the superficial.

Anyway, your analysis made me rethink the episode. And, while I am still not as disturbed by it as you, I understand how you saw it differently and I am really sorry this was such an upsetting episode for you and others.

Finally, I agree with you totally on 2 things - glad Dean got that sexual connection (been a long time for him) and your re-write was excellently done. I would have been as happy with that and others would not have been upset. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and making us all think and consider these issues.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-12-01 16:11
You have made me consider this episode in a whole different way than the way I saw it. I saw Suzy attracted to Dean from the beginning, and there were levels of flirting going on for both of them. And, they both enjoyed themselves and neither seemed to be regretting it in the afterglow. Also - I may make decisions about my personal life - but I am an adult and have the right to change my mind about those decisions and I would consider it patronizing for someone to decide that I was being abused, treated badly, etc., because someone gave me another option or presented a temptation. I do not believe we women are fragile flowers to be protected from temptation. Just my feelings.

As to the stereotypes of the women in the group - maybe so, although I belong to a book club, work in an office with six people (4 guys and 2 women), am on a board with 3 other women, and have 3 best friends (women) that I hang out with a lot. And, upon meeting the members of each of those groups for the first time, I bet a stranger would see those stereotypes in each member of the group. (I will not share which I would be). Once they got to know us, they would see each person has many dimensions, but first impressions tend to be one dimensional and lead to stereotypes. So - did not bug me in the show since I understand it takes time to get to know people and one meeting just shows the superficial.

Anyway, your analysis made me rethink the episode. And, while I am still not as disturbed by it as you, I understand how you saw it differently and I am really sorry this was such an upsetting episode for you and others.

Finally, I agree with you totally on 2 things - glad Dean got that sexual connection (been a long time for him) and your re-write was excellently done. I would have been as happy with that and others would not have been upset. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and making us all think and consider these issues.
Kate B
# Kate B 2013-12-01 16:13
Kudos to you. As far as I'm concerned the Dean scenes in this episode don't even exist, it was such appalling writing.
Kate B
# Kate B 2013-12-01 16:13
Kudos to you. As far as I'm concerned the Dean scenes in this episode don't even exist, it was such appalling writing.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-01 16:15
My take on the whole Dean/Suzy scene was that at the group session Dean thought he recognized Suzy. He went to talk to her and she invites him home to get some "books". I thought that Dean thought that was cover story for let's go to my place. Dean's cover right back was "it's dangerous let me walk you home". When they get there she takes off her top, he lights a candle, he thinks he is being seduced. But as soon as she dumps a bunch of books in his arms he backs right off. When he finds the porn he becomes fanboy telling her that she shouldn't be ashamed of her past. And I agree with Mick she made the first move. My problem with the whole scene is that he turned off his phone while he was on a case with his damaged brother and Jody Mills. A little unprofessional there Dean!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-01 16:15
My take on the whole Dean/Suzy scene was that at the group session Dean thought he recognized Suzy. He went to talk to her and she invites him home to get some "books". I thought that Dean thought that was cover story for let's go to my place. Dean's cover right back was "it's dangerous let me walk you home". When they get there she takes off her top, he lights a candle, he thinks he is being seduced. But as soon as she dumps a bunch of books in his arms he backs right off. When he finds the porn he becomes fanboy telling her that she shouldn't be ashamed of her past. And I agree with Mick she made the first move. My problem with the whole scene is that he turned off his phone while he was on a case with his damaged brother and Jody Mills. A little unprofessional there Dean!
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-12-01 16:18
WOW just WOW!!! Like you said, it's just your interpretation but I have to say I don't go along with any of it. I thought it was a typical Dean scenario and he didn't snoop, the drawer was open, he noticed the DVDs when he was answering his phone. He didn't ask to see books, Suzy volunteered some she had at home. I don't think he was disrespecting her, he was admiring her work, and she did make the first move. If she didn't want it to go that way, she held all the cards and could have turned that around at any given time but she didn't. The way I see it (interpret your scene) is you just turned Suzy back into the porn star that she was trying to deny she was. JMO ;-)
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-12-01 16:18
WOW just WOW!!! Like you said, it's just your interpretation but I have to say I don't go along with any of it. I thought it was a typical Dean scenario and he didn't snoop, the drawer was open, he noticed the DVDs when he was answering his phone. He didn't ask to see books, Suzy volunteered some she had at home. I don't think he was disrespecting her, he was admiring her work, and she did make the first move. If she didn't want it to go that way, she held all the cards and could have turned that around at any given time but she didn't. The way I see it (interpret your scene) is you just turned Suzy back into the porn star that she was trying to deny she was. JMO ;-)
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-01 16:19
I am a staunch Dean fan but I really, really did not like that scene or even the episode that much. Sam and Jody big "YAY" from me. The rest was just OK for me. This was the Dean of earlier seasons to me. The never-miss-an-o pportunity Dean and that's fine. That was part of who he was. But in later seasons he had mellowed somewhat from the constant horndog state and gained some maturity. I have no problem with him (or Sam) having sex. Hell no. The circumstances were, as written, slimy to me for the reasons you illustrated. That scene, humorously intended or not, just left a bad taste. I felt current Dean would have been a little more sympathetic to her situation. Not that he wouldn't have given it a shot! :-)

Thanks Ardeospina for your thoughts.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-01 16:19
I am a staunch Dean fan but I really, really did not like that scene or even the episode that much. Sam and Jody big "YAY" from me. The rest was just OK for me. This was the Dean of earlier seasons to me. The never-miss-an-o pportunity Dean and that's fine. That was part of who he was. But in later seasons he had mellowed somewhat from the constant horndog state and gained some maturity. I have no problem with him (or Sam) having sex. Hell no. The circumstances were, as written, slimy to me for the reasons you illustrated. That scene, humorously intended or not, just left a bad taste. I felt current Dean would have been a little more sympathetic to her situation. Not that he wouldn't have given it a shot! :-)

Thanks Ardeospina for your thoughts.
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-01 16:20
Also, there is pretty much no difference to the version of the scene you wrote and the version in the episode. It pretty much hits the same beats, Dean goes fanboy, Suzy warms up to him, she starts the flirtation and BAM!

I must have watched a different episode from everyone else.
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-01 16:20
Also, there is pretty much no difference to the version of the scene you wrote and the version in the episode. It pretty much hits the same beats, Dean goes fanboy, Suzy warms up to him, she starts the flirtation and BAM!

I must have watched a different episode from everyone else.
tigerlily2
# tigerlily2 2013-12-01 16:55
You pretty much stated how I felt about those scenes. I hate it when they make a character I love a skeevy creep. Horrendous characterizatio n for the sake of a few cheap laughs. I'm with Kate B, I'm mind wiping myself of the Dean parts of this one. Where's Ezekiel when you need him? ;)
tigerlily2
# tigerlily2 2013-12-01 16:55
You pretty much stated how I felt about those scenes. I hate it when they make a character I love a skeevy creep. Horrendous characterizatio n for the sake of a few cheap laughs. I'm with Kate B, I'm mind wiping myself of the Dean parts of this one. Where's Ezekiel when you need him? ;)
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-12-01 16:59
I agree! The boys are definitely not monks, although Sam usually sticks to girls he really develops feelings for (unless he doesn't have a soul), so Dean getting some isn't necessarily a big deal for me. However, it bothered me that he seemed pretty disrespectful of her life choices and ignored that just to have sex, even if it was with a porn star he's always crushed on. Maybe if they'd waited until they'd gotten free and she was the one who came onto him it wouldn't have bothered me so much but I thought he'd matured more than that.

And while chastity was not my way (boyfriends and now married so not with anyone and everyone either, mind you) I always respected friends and others wishes to remain chaste so the group was pretty one-dimensional . And coming from a woman writer it was pretty disappointing. She did write Jody well (which is good, don't mess with Jody) but I'm surprised no one thought to say something. Eh, theylet Best Friend with Benefits slip by too so guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

I dunno, Dean's got a lot on his plate right now with the whole Sam/Ezekiel situation and Cas as well so maybe I can let it slide just this once. Won't be rewatching the ep ever again that's for sure.
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-12-01 16:59
I agree! The boys are definitely not monks, although Sam usually sticks to girls he really develops feelings for (unless he doesn't have a soul), so Dean getting some isn't necessarily a big deal for me. However, it bothered me that he seemed pretty disrespectful of her life choices and ignored that just to have sex, even if it was with a porn star he's always crushed on. Maybe if they'd waited until they'd gotten free and she was the one who came onto him it wouldn't have bothered me so much but I thought he'd matured more than that.

And while chastity was not my way (boyfriends and now married so not with anyone and everyone either, mind you) I always respected friends and others wishes to remain chaste so the group was pretty one-dimensional . And coming from a woman writer it was pretty disappointing. She did write Jody well (which is good, don't mess with Jody) but I'm surprised no one thought to say something. Eh, theylet Best Friend with Benefits slip by too so guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

I dunno, Dean's got a lot on his plate right now with the whole Sam/Ezekiel situation and Cas as well so maybe I can let it slide just this once. Won't be rewatching the ep ever again that's for sure.
TC
# TC 2013-12-01 17:01
Thank you so much for restoring my faith in this website! I read the other two reviews posted here which did not even acknowledge the problems with this episode and could not come up with one legitimate reason to not look at the ugly side. That would be highly unfair to the fans. But now I see the plan was to balance opinions - like a thumbs up/thumbs down.
Not that every one must agree, but refusal to look at how others may have perceive 9.08 - whether because of its mocking of religious groups, its misogyny, or its cultural misappropriatio n - demeans the fandom. Refusal to acknowledge when a show we all love hits sour notes also minimizes it when it hits those soulful tones that shake us all to the core.
While I am one who thinks it has been too long since Dean has had sex, I didn't want it done like this, with him uncharacteristi cally not taking his brother's calls during a case (It's never been like that. He has always put concern for Sam first.) or by reverting to a Dean that was alluded to but only seen in S3. I thought having his daughter killed in front of him was a pretty good reason to be leery of shallow hookups.
Anyway - thank you, Ardeospina, for not falling prey to blinders that don't allow you to see when things aren't great. Let's hope the show finds its focus or some way to tie all these disjointed episodes (some good, some problematic) together to make them make sense.
TC
# TC 2013-12-01 17:01
Thank you so much for restoring my faith in this website! I read the other two reviews posted here which did not even acknowledge the problems with this episode and could not come up with one legitimate reason to not look at the ugly side. That would be highly unfair to the fans. But now I see the plan was to balance opinions - like a thumbs up/thumbs down.
Not that every one must agree, but refusal to look at how others may have perceive 9.08 - whether because of its mocking of religious groups, its misogyny, or its cultural misappropriatio n - demeans the fandom. Refusal to acknowledge when a show we all love hits sour notes also minimizes it when it hits those soulful tones that shake us all to the core.
While I am one who thinks it has been too long since Dean has had sex, I didn't want it done like this, with him uncharacteristi cally not taking his brother's calls during a case (It's never been like that. He has always put concern for Sam first.) or by reverting to a Dean that was alluded to but only seen in S3. I thought having his daughter killed in front of him was a pretty good reason to be leery of shallow hookups.
Anyway - thank you, Ardeospina, for not falling prey to blinders that don't allow you to see when things aren't great. Let's hope the show finds its focus or some way to tie all these disjointed episodes (some good, some problematic) together to make them make sense.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-01 18:00
Quoting Mick:
Also, there is pretty much no difference to the version of the scene you wrote and the version in the episode. It pretty much hits the same beats, Dean goes fanboy, Suzy warms up to him, she starts the flirtation and BAM!

I must have watched a different episode from everyone else.


Agreed.. I watched this again and didn't see a lack of consent on Suzy's part in any way, shape, or form. The scene was cheesy and played for laughs, and Dean wasn't exactly looking for a long term relationship, but if Suzy had said no, IMO that would have been the end of it.

But, as always, I enjoy reading these reviews and the comments; this scene certainly was divisive.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-01 18:00
Quote:
Also, there is pretty much no difference to the version of the scene you wrote and the version in the episode. It pretty much hits the same beats, Dean goes fanboy, Suzy warms up to him, she starts the flirtation and BAM!

I must have watched a different episode from everyone else.
Agreed.. I watched this again and didn't see a lack of consent on Suzy's part in any way, shape, or form. The scene was cheesy and played for laughs, and Dean wasn't exactly looking for a long term relationship, but if Suzy had said no, IMO that would have been the end of it.

But, as always, I enjoy reading these reviews and the comments; this scene certainly was divisive.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-12-01 18:29
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this review.
I mentioned on another thread that I was very upset with this upset. I found myself rolling my eyes a lot and at one point shaking my fist and yelling at my TV but could not for the life of me articulate why I was so pissed at this episode. Thank you for spelling out why I found myself shaking my fist at the shows depiction of women who wont put out.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-12-01 18:29
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this review.
I mentioned on another thread that I was very upset with this upset. I found myself rolling my eyes a lot and at one point shaking my fist and yelling at my TV but could not for the life of me articulate why I was so pissed at this episode. Thank you for spelling out why I found myself shaking my fist at the shows depiction of women who wont put out.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-01 18:31
I have to agree with the people who took this as two consenting adults who enjoyed some sex. Susie definitely gave Dean the come on when she said "you're near me now" and It's not my definition of forced when she jumped up and threw her legs around his waist when they kissed. Susie gave a pretty passionate kiss goodbye as well and I thought it was cute when Dean said he missed the sex already.

Was the chastity group a stereotype? Yup. But it was all done tongue in cheek. In actuality, Dean is often played as the stereotypical sleazy good looking bad boy but no one is upset about that!

Also you completely forgot Dean saying he was sure he recognized her and him picking up on her knowing a lot about the rest of the group.

I'm sorry you and other people saw this as something sleazy and anti women but as a woman, myself, I laughed and enjoyed it for the fun I think it was meant to be.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-01 18:31
I have to agree with the people who took this as two consenting adults who enjoyed some sex. Susie definitely gave Dean the come on when she said "you're near me now" and It's not my definition of forced when she jumped up and threw her legs around his waist when they kissed. Susie gave a pretty passionate kiss goodbye as well and I thought it was cute when Dean said he missed the sex already.

Was the chastity group a stereotype? Yup. But it was all done tongue in cheek. In actuality, Dean is often played as the stereotypical sleazy good looking bad boy but no one is upset about that!

Also you completely forgot Dean saying he was sure he recognized her and him picking up on her knowing a lot about the rest of the group.

I'm sorry you and other people saw this as something sleazy and anti women but as a woman, myself, I laughed and enjoyed it for the fun I think it was meant to be.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-12-01 18:34
@20: Sorry. I meant. "upset at this episode".

This is the worst epi. this season.Right up there with Mans Best Friend with Benefits, Red Sky and Bugs.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-12-01 18:34
@20: Sorry. I meant. "upset at this episode".

This is the worst epi. this season.Right up there with Mans Best Friend with Benefits, Red Sky and Bugs.
Ripley2win
# Ripley2win 2013-12-01 18:47
Hey! I have learned to like Bugs! But I will Never watch this episode again. Yes, she consented but under continual verbal pressure from Dean.
Ripley2win
# Ripley2win 2013-12-01 18:47
Hey! I have learned to like Bugs! But I will Never watch this episode again. Yes, she consented but under continual verbal pressure from Dean.
E
# E 2013-12-01 18:56
I don't know. I get what you are saying here, and I can completely see why many fans might be offended here, but it just didn't really bother me all that much. I certainly wasn't offended on the level that you are offended. Was Dean a horn dog? Yes. Was he a predator preying on innocent females and coercing them into having sex with them? No, not to me anyway. I guess its true that Dean went with Suzy under false pretenses, but we've seen that from Dean many, many times, so what makes this time more worthy of complaining about than all the others? And maybe he was being a bit of a sleaze, but I never felt one time that Suzy wasn't in control of the situation or that she was coerced into anything, in fact she initiated the final get together. I found Dean willing to back off and not push on numerous occasions while he was with her. He was the only one that was not offended by her background; clearly she was, and basically figured that everyone she knew would be as well. As a matter of fact Dean seemed to be the only one NOT judging her by her background. Also, Suzy wasn't the point of the episode, so I don't need to see chapter and verse about Suzy and her feelings of inadequacy and her conflict with her background spelled out in minute detail for no reason. I only want to see as much about a character like Suzy as she can reflect on either Sam or Dean. She is living a lie and so is Dean, I think her purpose was to show that Dean needs to face his lies the way she ended up facing hers and that there will be consequences to her and his actions, but that being untruthful about everything is not the answer to dealing with their respective pasts. We've seen Suzy come to this conclusion, so when will Dean?
E
# E 2013-12-01 18:56
I don't know. I get what you are saying here, and I can completely see why many fans might be offended here, but it just didn't really bother me all that much. I certainly wasn't offended on the level that you are offended. Was Dean a horn dog? Yes. Was he a predator preying on innocent females and coercing them into having sex with them? No, not to me anyway. I guess its true that Dean went with Suzy under false pretenses, but we've seen that from Dean many, many times, so what makes this time more worthy of complaining about than all the others? And maybe he was being a bit of a sleaze, but I never felt one time that Suzy wasn't in control of the situation or that she was coerced into anything, in fact she initiated the final get together. I found Dean willing to back off and not push on numerous occasions while he was with her. He was the only one that was not offended by her background; clearly she was, and basically figured that everyone she knew would be as well. As a matter of fact Dean seemed to be the only one NOT judging her by her background. Also, Suzy wasn't the point of the episode, so I don't need to see chapter and verse about Suzy and her feelings of inadequacy and her conflict with her background spelled out in minute detail for no reason. I only want to see as much about a character like Suzy as she can reflect on either Sam or Dean. She is living a lie and so is Dean, I think her purpose was to show that Dean needs to face his lies the way she ended up facing hers and that there will be consequences to her and his actions, but that being untruthful about everything is not the answer to dealing with their respective pasts. We've seen Suzy come to this conclusion, so when will Dean?
Ripley2win
# Ripley2win 2013-12-01 18:57
Whoops! I hit the wrong key and sent the post before it was finished.

I am grateful for your article because I was beginning to feel totally out of place on this board. It's just that I can't hand wave away the problems with this episode and Dean's sleazy and out of character actions (and with this entire season really). I don't have time to leave a well thought out post at the moment,, but I will try to soon.
Ripley2win
# Ripley2win 2013-12-01 18:57
Whoops! I hit the wrong key and sent the post before it was finished.

I am grateful for your article because I was beginning to feel totally out of place on this board. It's just that I can't hand wave away the problems with this episode and Dean's sleazy and out of character actions (and with this entire season really). I don't have time to leave a well thought out post at the moment,, but I will try to soon.
Simpatico
# Simpatico 2013-12-01 19:48
I agree with Prix68, I wasn't offended. Now we are supposed to be offended about consenting adults engaging in sex? As well as regard Castiel as taking advantage of a woman when he didn't know a reaper had possessed April Kelly. I fail to see the logic. If anything Cas was the victim of an assassin who wanted a little ass.
Simpatico
# Simpatico 2013-12-01 19:48
I agree with Prix68, I wasn't offended. Now we are supposed to be offended about consenting adults engaging in sex? As well as regard Castiel as taking advantage of a woman when he didn't know a reaper had possessed April Kelly. I fail to see the logic. If anything Cas was the victim of an assassin who wanted a little ass.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-01 20:04
Quote:
I agree with Prix68, I wasn't offended. Now we are supposed to be offended about consenting adults engaging in sex? As well as regard Castiel as taking advantage of a woman when he didn't know a reaper had possessed April Kelly. I fail to see the logic. If anything Cas was the victim of an assassin who wanted a little ass.
Although I was not particularly offended by this episode, I totally understand those who were and I see no reason to criticize those who do. Ardeospina made a pretty compelling case as to why this episode offended her. When I think about all the things she discussed here, I feel a certain amount of discomfort about this episode.

As to Cas and April. I don't think anyone is blaming Cas, but if people got all in a huff about Sam and Ruby and possession issues, then I do think it's fair to note that the real April was violated when the Reaper had sex with Cas.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-01 20:04
Quote:
I agree with Prix68, I wasn't offended. Now we are supposed to be offended about consenting adults engaging in sex? As well as regard Castiel as taking advantage of a woman when he didn't know a reaper had possessed April Kelly. I fail to see the logic. If anything Cas was the victim of an assassin who wanted a little ass.
Although I was not particularly offended by this episode, I totally understand those who were and I see no reason to criticize those who do. Ardeospina made a pretty compelling case as to why this episode offended her. When I think about all the things she discussed here, I feel a certain amount of discomfort about this episode.

As to Cas and April. I don't think anyone is blaming Cas, but if people got all in a huff about Sam and Ruby and possession issues, then I do think it's fair to note that the real April was violated when the Reaper had sex with Cas.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-01 20:09
I personally am not highly offended just disappointed. I think the Dean of S9 would have respected her decision to abstain from sex ,whatever her reasons. I don't need a backstory or details. Just because he had a porno fantasy and she went for it doesn't make it OK IMO that he full court pressed her to do something that she had pledged not to do at some point. Two consenting adults sure, but was it a good decision? What if she was abstaining from alcohol and Dean urged her to drink and she went for it? It just felt wrong to me. I don't think the Dean I know would be so dismissive of her wishes just to live out his fantasy.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-01 20:09
I personally am not highly offended just disappointed. I think the Dean of S9 would have respected her decision to abstain from sex ,whatever her reasons. I don't need a backstory or details. Just because he had a porno fantasy and she went for it doesn't make it OK IMO that he full court pressed her to do something that she had pledged not to do at some point. Two consenting adults sure, but was it a good decision? What if she was abstaining from alcohol and Dean urged her to drink and she went for it? It just felt wrong to me. I don't think the Dean I know would be so dismissive of her wishes just to live out his fantasy.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-01 20:17
Quoting Simpatico:
I agree with Prix68, I wasn't offended. Now we are supposed to be offended about consenting adults engaging in sex? As well as regard Castiel as taking advantage of a woman when he didn't know a reaper had possessed April Kelly. I fail to see the logic. If anything Cas was the victim of an assassin who wanted a little ass.


No, you hit that nail on the head. Castiel's virginity was taken under false pretenses; a reaper who intended to murder him slept with him first for information and in order to hurt him.

She slept with him as a precursor to torture and murder. Castiel's consent, in that case, was uninformed consent. Which makes it not consent at all.

Meanwhile, you have April Kelley. As Eugenie/Brad have recreated Reapers to be like angels, vessels and all, the use of a vessel to do that meant that the vessel, April herself, was also nonconsenting for that activity.

This is not something new to the show. Actually, if you look back to Season 5, Sarah Gamble was the one to make the stand in the writer's room for consent; prior to having one of the "boys" sleep with a nonconsenting individual, they established Ruby's as an empty vessel.

So this is something that SEVERAL of these writers remember being a big issue even then.

Now, let's move this along to the commentary about Dean again.

When Jo gave her "Self Respect" line in AAH, Dean respected it. Could he have probably said "No, but really. Last night on earth. You've wanted to get with me for seasons" and she might have gone with it? Yeah. He didn't.

Kali; she expressed her disinterest. Dean walked away.

Nancy, in JIB. He didn't turn to the virgin in the room and ask her if she wanted a ride in order to disqualify her.

Dean is completely charming and incredibly attractive. He has NEVER stooped to this level in order to get a woman to sleep with him. He's never had to, and I don't think he would do it. Giving a false name and profession is part and parcel to what he is, and as he's often on cases you don't drop your real name anywhere particularly when you're. . . well, either a mass murderer, legally dead, hunted, or reknown by things you're hunting at any given time.

He gives a line that establishes him for their consideration, one night only, but he's pretty straightforward about what he's after.

He told Sam before he left he wanted to hit that.

When he was 'praying beside her' oh so caringly, he was surprised and bored/irritated /flabbergasted that his clear plan (lighting the candles was a bit of a tip) was being waylaid.

She left the room, he went snooping.

She expressed that she left that past behind, and he quoted lines from something she regrets at her.

They sleep together, and are taken, and she expresses regret and guilt and that perhaps they deserved to be there. That God put them there for it.

Her last comments are how she wasn't 'strong' enough to resist.

I'm sorry, but neither Susie nor Dean come out well in this narrative; because the writing was pretty atrocious and the message was terrible.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-01 20:17
Quote:
I agree with Prix68, I wasn't offended. Now we are supposed to be offended about consenting adults engaging in sex? As well as regard Castiel as taking advantage of a woman when he didn't know a reaper had possessed April Kelly. I fail to see the logic. If anything Cas was the victim of an assassin who wanted a little ass.
No, you hit that nail on the head. Castiel's virginity was taken under false pretenses; a reaper who intended to murder him slept with him first for information and in order to hurt him.

She slept with him as a precursor to torture and murder. Castiel's consent, in that case, was uninformed consent. Which makes it not consent at all.

Meanwhile, you have April Kelley. As Eugenie/Brad have recreated Reapers to be like angels, vessels and all, the use of a vessel to do that meant that the vessel, April herself, was also nonconsenting for that activity.

This is not something new to the show. Actually, if you look back to Season 5, Sarah Gamble was the one to make the stand in the writer's room for consent; prior to having one of the "boys" sleep with a nonconsenting individual, they established Ruby's as an empty vessel.

So this is something that SEVERAL of these writers remember being a big issue even then.

Now, let's move this along to the commentary about Dean again.

When Jo gave her "Self Respect" line in AAH, Dean respected it. Could he have probably said "No, but really. Last night on earth. You've wanted to get with me for seasons" and she might have gone with it? Yeah. He didn't.

Kali; she expressed her disinterest. Dean walked away.

Nancy, in JIB. He didn't turn to the virgin in the room and ask her if she wanted a ride in order to disqualify her.

Dean is completely charming and incredibly attractive. He has NEVER stooped to this level in order to get a woman to sleep with him. He's never had to, and I don't think he would do it. Giving a false name and profession is part and parcel to what he is, and as he's often on cases you don't drop your real name anywhere particularly when you're. . . well, either a mass murderer, legally dead, hunted, or reknown by things you're hunting at any given time.

He gives a line that establishes him for their consideration, one night only, but he's pretty straightforward about what he's after.

He told Sam before he left he wanted to hit that.

When he was 'praying beside her' oh so caringly, he was surprised and bored/irritated /flabbergasted that his clear plan (lighting the candles was a bit of a tip) was being waylaid.

She left the room, he went snooping.

She expressed that she left that past behind, and he quoted lines from something she regrets at her.

They sleep together, and are taken, and she expresses regret and guilt and that perhaps they deserved to be there. That God put them there for it.

Her last comments are how she wasn't 'strong' enough to resist.

I'm sorry, but neither Susie nor Dean come out well in this narrative; because the writing was pretty atrocious and the message was terrible.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-01 20:30
From my point of view I just thought that Dean actually DID understand the difference between reality and porn. I thought he was a grownup.

Suzy didn't do anything unwillingly, but then Suzy just wasn't a real person, she was a doll.

Once they got to the agreeing they both wanted sex bit there really wasn't so much of an issue, but the run up to it was just really extremely creepy and as Ardeospina put it a guy who genuinely seemed to think that his porn fantasies had come true would have been unlikely to take 'no' for an answer in that situation. Lucky girl that she got Dean.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-01 20:30
From my point of view I just thought that Dean actually DID understand the difference between reality and porn. I thought he was a grownup.

Suzy didn't do anything unwillingly, but then Suzy just wasn't a real person, she was a doll.

Once they got to the agreeing they both wanted sex bit there really wasn't so much of an issue, but the run up to it was just really extremely creepy and as Ardeospina put it a guy who genuinely seemed to think that his porn fantasies had come true would have been unlikely to take 'no' for an answer in that situation. Lucky girl that she got Dean.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-12-01 20:40
i didn't see dean as sleazy at all. i just saw him as his sometimes conceited self. i love dean , but he is a little conceited at times. like when he first meets up with lisa. he goes through memory lane and decides to knock on the door of some girl he had sex with like 8 yrs earlier without even considering that she might have a husband. he assumed that she would take one look at him and just have sex with him, simply because he shows up at her front door , u always found that to be kind of conceited. now with suzy, i mean sam did make a comment about her being the chastity leader and not hitting on that...and dean totally ignored what sam said and i believe he actually said something to the effect 'we'll see about that". it's obvious dean has his own agenda ....so in all honesty, while i don't think dean was being a sleezeball, i do think he gave absolutely little to no regard to her status and believed without a shadow of a doubt that he could change her mind...it seemed more like a conquest for him...but then in the apartment, when he actually was handed the books and she asked him to pray, i think he realized that she was really upset and he did start to back away from his original idea of having sex with her. that of course didn't last very long once he found the discs. when he realized who she was, and how much he idolized her and then she started to reciprocate,... .well it's not the first time dean's had sex with an actress....he did after all do the deed with tara benchley in hollywood babylon....and come on, if the chance ever came that someone you idolized was willing to be initmate with you....wouldn't you take that chance?

guess it didn't really bother me. i figured dean should have a little fun because it's all gonna be pretty crappy for him from this moment on...at least for awhile. so i just considered this dean's last hurrah...
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-12-01 20:40
i didn't see dean as sleazy at all. i just saw him as his sometimes conceited self. i love dean , but he is a little conceited at times. like when he first meets up with lisa. he goes through memory lane and decides to knock on the door of some girl he had sex with like 8 yrs earlier without even considering that she might have a husband. he assumed that she would take one look at him and just have sex with him, simply because he shows up at her front door , u always found that to be kind of conceited. now with suzy, i mean sam did make a comment about her being the chastity leader and not hitting on that...and dean totally ignored what sam said and i believe he actually said something to the effect 'we'll see about that". it's obvious dean has his own agenda ....so in all honesty, while i don't think dean was being a sleezeball, i do think he gave absolutely little to no regard to her status and believed without a shadow of a doubt that he could change her mind...it seemed more like a conquest for him...but then in the apartment, when he actually was handed the books and she asked him to pray, i think he realized that she was really upset and he did start to back away from his original idea of having sex with her. that of course didn't last very long once he found the discs. when he realized who she was, and how much he idolized her and then she started to reciprocate,... .well it's not the first time dean's had sex with an actress....he did after all do the deed with tara benchley in hollywood babylon....and come on, if the chance ever came that someone you idolized was willing to be initmate with you....wouldn't you take that chance?

guess it didn't really bother me. i figured dean should have a little fun because it's all gonna be pretty crappy for him from this moment on...at least for awhile. so i just considered this dean's last hurrah...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-01 20:49
Really? Do you think that Dean would have forced himself on an unwilling woman? Again my take was that Dean thought Suzy was talking code in front of the group. When he got to her place she continued to behave in what he thought was a seductive manner taking off her top. When she obviously wasn't going where he thought it was going he did back down until he found the porn. But even still he seemed more of a fan until she started to play along. But I do have enough faith in tptb that they would never let Dean rape a woman.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-01 20:49
Really? Do you think that Dean would have forced himself on an unwilling woman? Again my take was that Dean thought Suzy was talking code in front of the group. When he got to her place she continued to behave in what he thought was a seductive manner taking off her top. When she obviously wasn't going where he thought it was going he did back down until he found the porn. But even still he seemed more of a fan until she started to play along. But I do have enough faith in tptb that they would never let Dean rape a woman.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-01 21:16
Quoting cheryl42:
Really? Do you think that Dean would have forced himself on an unwilling woman? [...] But I do have enough faith in tptb that they would never let Dean rape a woman.


We have already had established by TPTB that they didn't think though the consent issues of Castiel/April well enough; Robbie's tweet serves to prove that.

He was asked of Castiel/April, which as I discuss above is a consent issue on BOTH sides, "Was the noncon nature intentional, if so, why was that no addressed?"

His response:


Robbie Thompson
@rthompson1138
@OwlsGoldberg wasn't intentional-- sorry #supernatural
7:09pm · 12 Nov 13 · web


So, are we talking about Dean physically forcing himself onto a woman? No. We're not. Actually, you won't find Ardeospina accusing him of "rape" anywhere in that article.

What you see if her pointing out the ongoing issues this season with not putting significant consideration into the writing to see these significantly problematic aspects of consent.

This is particularly concerning because this is a season revolving HEAVILY around consent; but merely consent to be "an angel condom."

When it comes to the sex scenes this season, both of them have involved problematic consent issues that are the fault of the WRITING, and could easily have been remedied. Much as Ardeospina wrote in her revisionist script, I've seen alternate versions of 9x03 that would have dealt with the consent issues there. . . and still have had Cas get laid.

So it's not a matter of "SEX BAD!" It's a matter of "the writing is bad and failing to consider issues that were under consideration in the past, and that the past narrative has illustrated ARE important."
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-01 21:16
Really? Do you think that Dean would have forced himself on an unwilling woman? [...] But I do have enough faith in tptb that they would never let Dean rape a woman.

We have already had established by TPTB that they didn't think though the consent issues of Castiel/April well enough; Robbie's tweet serves to prove that.

He was asked of Castiel/April, which as I discuss above is a consent issue on BOTH sides, "Was the noncon nature intentional, if so, why was that no addressed?"

His response:


Robbie Thompson
@rthompson1138
@OwlsGoldberg wasn't intentional-- sorry #supernatural
7:09pm · 12 Nov 13 · web


So, are we talking about Dean physically forcing himself onto a woman? No. We're not. Actually, you won't find Ardeospina accusing him of "rape" anywhere in that article.

What you see if her pointing out the ongoing issues this season with not putting significant consideration into the writing to see these significantly problematic aspects of consent.

This is particularly concerning because this is a season revolving HEAVILY around consent; but merely consent to be "an angel condom."

When it comes to the sex scenes this season, both of them have involved problematic consent issues that are the fault of the WRITING, and could easily have been remedied. Much as Ardeospina wrote in her revisionist script, I've seen alternate versions of 9x03 that would have dealt with the consent issues there. . . and still have had Cas get laid.

So it's not a matter of "SEX BAD!" It's a matter of "the writing is bad and failing to consider issues that were under consideration in the past, and that the past narrative has illustrated ARE important."
Wynne88
# Wynne88 2013-12-01 21:18
Dean has consistently been depicted as a guy who enjoys casual sex, but I've never minded that because he seemed to take a very simple, uncomplicated delight in it. Enjoying sex doesn't make it sleazy; but Dean's facial expressions and verbal inflections in this encounter really did. If they had just toned down the leers, it would have made it a little better.
Wynne88
# Wynne88 2013-12-01 21:18
Dean has consistently been depicted as a guy who enjoys casual sex, but I've never minded that because he seemed to take a very simple, uncomplicated delight in it. Enjoying sex doesn't make it sleazy; but Dean's facial expressions and verbal inflections in this encounter really did. If they had just toned down the leers, it would have made it a little better.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-01 21:30
Quoting cheryl42:
Really? Do you think that Dean would have forced himself on an unwilling woman? Again my take was that Dean thought Suzy was talking code in front of the group. When he got to her place she continued to behave in what he thought was a seductive manner taking off her top. When she obviously wasn't going where he thought it was going he did back down until he found the porn. But even still he seemed more of a fan until she started to play along. But I do have enough faith in tptb that they would never let Dean rape a woman.


Are you asking me do I think that? (since I was the last person before your post to mention it - maybe you don't mean my comment) I thought I was pretty clear. Of course I don't think that, in any other situation Dean has always been pretty respectful, or at least left the girls happy.
Dean is Dean, I don't judge him for it, and I don't judge the girls who have heard the 'talent scout' lines 500 times before and gone along with him anyway, and I don't judge the girls that don't think about it at all before they fall into bed with him. And if someone wants to work in the porn industry then I don't care about that either.

I am saying that the blurring of the lines between reality and porn also blurs the lines between consent and consent not being required/import ant (since the entire purpose of porn is that the people in it are there to have sex, no discussion about that, just bad dialogue - I am still half convinced the whole thing was a porn parody if such a thing is actually possible). I am talking about what someone might take away as the message from this scenario - which, honestly, if anyone is getting their cues on how to behave from tv shows, then there is not much hope for them, but anyway ...

In this scenario because it is Dean we know that the girl is safe and if she isn't interested then that will be ok with him. But I don't in any way believe that she was leading him on, and in fact (to me) the idea that he had any reason to think that makes the writing of the entire scenario even less believable. The only even slightly believable thing about Suzy was that she seemed to not have gone to the opposite extreme having left the porn wold behind. She wasn't all ponytails and dowdy clothes. She was a woman comfortable with her choices and apparently wanting to share her decisions with other people. She seemed to be a grownup, Dean didn't, and he seemed to pull her down to that level and that is not the Dean I know or like.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-01 21:30
Quote:
Really? Do you think that Dean would have forced himself on an unwilling woman? Again my take was that Dean thought Suzy was talking code in front of the group. When he got to her place she continued to behave in what he thought was a seductive manner taking off her top. When she obviously wasn't going where he thought it was going he did back down until he found the porn. But even still he seemed more of a fan until she started to play along. But I do have enough faith in tptb that they would never let Dean rape a woman.
Are you asking me do I think that? (since I was the last person before your post to mention it - maybe you don't mean my comment) I thought I was pretty clear. Of course I don't think that, in any other situation Dean has always been pretty respectful, or at least left the girls happy.
Dean is Dean, I don't judge him for it, and I don't judge the girls who have heard the 'talent scout' lines 500 times before and gone along with him anyway, and I don't judge the girls that don't think about it at all before they fall into bed with him. And if someone wants to work in the porn industry then I don't care about that either.

I am saying that the blurring of the lines between reality and porn also blurs the lines between consent and consent not being required/import ant (since the entire purpose of porn is that the people in it are there to have sex, no discussion about that, just bad dialogue - I am still half convinced the whole thing was a porn parody if such a thing is actually possible). I am talking about what someone might take away as the message from this scenario - which, honestly, if anyone is getting their cues on how to behave from tv shows, then there is not much hope for them, but anyway ...

In this scenario because it is Dean we know that the girl is safe and if she isn't interested then that will be ok with him. But I don't in any way believe that she was leading him on, and in fact (to me) the idea that he had any reason to think that makes the writing of the entire scenario even less believable. The only even slightly believable thing about Suzy was that she seemed to not have gone to the opposite extreme having left the porn wold behind. She wasn't all ponytails and dowdy clothes. She was a woman comfortable with her choices and apparently wanting to share her decisions with other people. She seemed to be a grownup, Dean didn't, and he seemed to pull her down to that level and that is not the Dean I know or like.
Winchesters_Impala30
# Winchesters_Impala30 2013-12-02 00:01
PERFECT ARTICLE! I cannot tell you how absolutely disgusted I was with 9x08. Dean has always been into sex and women but I've never found him creepy, sleazy and scary. You hit the nail on the head as to why I felt this way. It was just the set-up of the episode, how Dean literally targeted someone who had put herself out there as NOT wanting to have sex. This woman took a vow and was actually a leader in this group and yet none of that stopped Dean from LYING to her, getting her to INVITE him into her home under false pretenses, SNOOPING around her stuff, and then confronting her about a past that she was trying to leave behind. The simple fact is that the episode could have been written very differently, with Suzy being given more power and dimension over what happened. With Dean not lying and not being a creep and not coming across as a total sleaze ball. I can guarantee you, if you told someone the set-up to the Dean/Suzy sex scene and replaced Dean and just said "ugly middle age man" or something and people would be predicting the scene would have ended up as rape. Did Dean rape Suzy? No, she consented. But would she have consented had Dean not accosted her at her home, exposed her past, and lied his way into her home? I believe she would have said no under different circumstances and been stronger. Just because she doesn't regret the sex or enjoyed the sex doesn't mean she fully consented to the sex. It's like men who take advantage of women after bad break-ups or when they are at a very low period. It's not rape but it's as close as close to dubious consent as it goes. And for this being Dean Winchester, someone we're supposed to look at as a hero? That characterizatio n is awful and I cannot believe that a woman actually wrote this piece of garbage. Compounding the matter further is the treatment of other women in the chastity group and how two dimensional they all became. Even Jodie Mills who as written better still assaulted a girl and didn't show any kind of remorse because of course the woman she was attacking was just a two dimensional character who deserved to get her face bashed in? With female writers like this on SPN, no wonder the show doesn't stand a chance with women's issues. These writers just don't understand how problematic their writing is and that is troubling in so many ways.
Winchesters_Impala30
# Winchesters_Impala30 2013-12-02 00:01
PERFECT ARTICLE! I cannot tell you how absolutely disgusted I was with 9x08. Dean has always been into sex and women but I've never found him creepy, sleazy and scary. You hit the nail on the head as to why I felt this way. It was just the set-up of the episode, how Dean literally targeted someone who had put herself out there as NOT wanting to have sex. This woman took a vow and was actually a leader in this group and yet none of that stopped Dean from LYING to her, getting her to INVITE him into her home under false pretenses, SNOOPING around her stuff, and then confronting her about a past that she was trying to leave behind. The simple fact is that the episode could have been written very differently, with Suzy being given more power and dimension over what happened. With Dean not lying and not being a creep and not coming across as a total sleaze ball. I can guarantee you, if you told someone the set-up to the Dean/Suzy sex scene and replaced Dean and just said "ugly middle age man" or something and people would be predicting the scene would have ended up as rape. Did Dean rape Suzy? No, she consented. But would she have consented had Dean not accosted her at her home, exposed her past, and lied his way into her home? I believe she would have said no under different circumstances and been stronger. Just because she doesn't regret the sex or enjoyed the sex doesn't mean she fully consented to the sex. It's like men who take advantage of women after bad break-ups or when they are at a very low period. It's not rape but it's as close as close to dubious consent as it goes. And for this being Dean Winchester, someone we're supposed to look at as a hero? That characterizatio n is awful and I cannot believe that a woman actually wrote this piece of garbage. Compounding the matter further is the treatment of other women in the chastity group and how two dimensional they all became. Even Jodie Mills who as written better still assaulted a girl and didn't show any kind of remorse because of course the woman she was attacking was just a two dimensional character who deserved to get her face bashed in? With female writers like this on SPN, no wonder the show doesn't stand a chance with women's issues. These writers just don't understand how problematic their writing is and that is troubling in so many ways.
TheHandsomeOne
# TheHandsomeOne 2013-12-02 01:06
Dude, seriously? Another Destiel fangirl pissed that Dean had sex, much less with a woman? Oh, for shame!

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
TheHandsomeOne
# TheHandsomeOne 2013-12-02 01:06
Dude, seriously? Another Destiel fangirl pissed that Dean had sex, much less with a woman? Oh, for shame!

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-02 01:10
Quoting TheHandsomeOne:
Dude, seriously? Another Destiel fangirl pissed that Dean had sex, much less with a woman? Oh, for shame!

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.


So... You aren't going to address the article at all, then, I take it. Just insult the author, and dismiss the concerns raised by many fans.

To borrow your phrase.

"Dude, seriously?"
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-02 01:10
Quote:
Dude, seriously? Another Destiel fangirl pissed that Dean had sex, much less with a woman? Oh, for shame!

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
So... You aren't going to address the article at all, then, I take it. Just insult the author, and dismiss the concerns raised by many fans.

To borrow your phrase.

"Dude, seriously?"
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-02 02:53
Sorry eilf not that was not directed at you just a general comment. Some posters seem to be suggesting that Dean essentially raped Suzy. I saw something completely different. I do try to watch these episodes in the spirit in which it was written. I doubt very much it this was the writers intent for the viewers to think that Dean would force himself on an unwilling woman.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-02 02:53
Sorry eilf not that was not directed at you just a general comment. Some posters seem to be suggesting that Dean essentially raped Suzy. I saw something completely different. I do try to watch these episodes in the spirit in which it was written. I doubt very much it this was the writers intent for the viewers to think that Dean would force himself on an unwilling woman.
TheHandsomeOne
# TheHandsomeOne 2013-12-02 03:09
I would, but I'm laughing too hard. Each time Dean show's even a passing interest in a member of the opposite sex, oh the outrage!

What people tend to forget is that Dean is a cad, a hound, and ultimately, a man. He isn't a bra-burning feminist, he is a Casanova who hunts monsters, and in no way does that insult women as people are suggesting.
TheHandsomeOne
# TheHandsomeOne 2013-12-02 03:09
I would, but I'm laughing too hard. Each time Dean show's even a passing interest in a member of the opposite sex, oh the outrage!

What people tend to forget is that Dean is a cad, a hound, and ultimately, a man. He isn't a bra-burning feminist, he is a Casanova who hunts monsters, and in no way does that insult women as people are suggesting.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-02 05:00
Judging from all the different reaction's from the Dean and Suzy interaction. Then obviously it was not as clear cut as perhaps the writer intended.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-02 05:00
Judging from all the different reaction's from the Dean and Suzy interaction. Then obviously it was not as clear cut as perhaps the writer intended.
Aro
# Aro 2013-12-02 07:00
Ardeospina Quote:
That took me 20 minutes. And I’m an amateur, as you can clearly see. But look! I'm not pissed at Dean for being a sleezy asshole! Dean gave Suzy an out instead of pushing until she gave in! She's the one who took it to the next level! Dean still got to sleep with his porn star and I don't feel like I need a Silkwood shower from watching this on my TV screen!
I'm sorry but I see no difference to the version of the scene you wrote and the version in the show.
And just for the record, Suzy was the one who took it to the next level in the episode, with the line "Well you are now (near to me)".
Aro
# Aro 2013-12-02 07:00
Ardeospina Quote:
That took me 20 minutes. And I’m an amateur, as you can clearly see. But look! I'm not pissed at Dean for being a sleezy asshole! Dean gave Suzy an out instead of pushing until she gave in! She's the one who took it to the next level! Dean still got to sleep with his porn star and I don't feel like I need a Silkwood shower from watching this on my TV screen!
I'm sorry but I see no difference to the version of the scene you wrote and the version in the show.
And just for the record, Suzy was the one who took it to the next level in the episode, with the line "Well you are now (near to me)".
ME
# ME 2013-12-02 09:09
I would not say I was exactly offended by this presentation, but I did think that Dean was a bit out of character here. It's not the first time the show has had me going "ew" in regards to sex. There were a couple of episodes in season four where 30-year-old Dean was ogling teenage cheerleaders and then the mental patient in season five and etc. I did see Dean's jazzed-to-be-ge tting-in-Suzy's -pants behavior in the church to be a bit predatory--it was like it was a challenge for him since she had taken the vow. but I can also see that Dean could have read into her comments as an invitation. Nobody's saying that Dean forced her to have sex, but I have a hard time believing that he has to work this hard to get some. I was actually happy that Dean got some carnal action, just didn't think the lead up was right. His little overshare was great though and this is how I usually think of Dean--sex just feel right--not this business of needing the challenge.

Dean's a horn dog, I get it and it's one of the thing I love about him. It's just I expect more from Supernatural. This season and most of last have been so on the surface and I miss the days the dug a little deeper.
ME
# ME 2013-12-02 09:09
I would not say I was exactly offended by this presentation, but I did think that Dean was a bit out of character here. It's not the first time the show has had me going "ew" in regards to sex. There were a couple of episodes in season four where 30-year-old Dean was ogling teenage cheerleaders and then the mental patient in season five and etc. I did see Dean's jazzed-to-be-ge tting-in-Suzy's -pants behavior in the church to be a bit predatory--it was like it was a challenge for him since she had taken the vow. but I can also see that Dean could have read into her comments as an invitation. Nobody's saying that Dean forced her to have sex, but I have a hard time believing that he has to work this hard to get some. I was actually happy that Dean got some carnal action, just didn't think the lead up was right. His little overshare was great though and this is how I usually think of Dean--sex just feel right--not this business of needing the challenge.

Dean's a horn dog, I get it and it's one of the thing I love about him. It's just I expect more from Supernatural. This season and most of last have been so on the surface and I miss the days the dug a little deeper.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-02 09:38
I really think that this episode was supposed to be a parody of a cheesy porn movie. If you've ever watched one they kind of all have the same silly story. And Dean and Suzy were punished for their "sins" and cast into "hell". Otherwise Sam wouldn't have found them and Jody wouldn't have been able to vanquish the evil foe. Maybe Jenny Klein knew this would cause controversy and conversation maybe she was just writing a parody. I guess it is all in your own interpretation.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-02 09:38
I really think that this episode was supposed to be a parody of a cheesy porn movie. If you've ever watched one they kind of all have the same silly story. And Dean and Suzy were punished for their "sins" and cast into "hell". Otherwise Sam wouldn't have found them and Jody wouldn't have been able to vanquish the evil foe. Maybe Jenny Klein knew this would cause controversy and conversation maybe she was just writing a parody. I guess it is all in your own interpretation.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-02 11:51
Quoting cheryl42:
Sorry eilf not that was not directed at you just a general comment. Some posters seem to be suggesting that Dean essentially raped Suzy. I saw something completely different. I do try to watch these episodes in the spirit in which it was written. I doubt very much it this was the writers intent for the viewers to think that Dean would force himself on an unwilling woman.

No problem cheryl, :-) I just wouldn't like anyone to think that I had that opinion. Mind you I realize looking back that I used the word 'reality' to describe the world of SPN without any intention of irony ... :P
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-02 11:51
Quote:
Sorry eilf not that was not directed at you just a general comment. Some posters seem to be suggesting that Dean essentially raped Suzy. I saw something completely different. I do try to watch these episodes in the spirit in which it was written. I doubt very much it this was the writers intent for the viewers to think that Dean would force himself on an unwilling woman.
No problem cheryl, :-) I just wouldn't like anyone to think that I had that opinion. Mind you I realize looking back that I used the word 'reality' to describe the world of SPN without any intention of irony ... :P
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 12:32
Quoting percysowner:
I do think it's fair to note that the real April was violated when the Reaper had sex with Cas.


I agree, and it's another reason why I found that lol!dubcon moment at the end of 9x03 as repellent as Dean's sleaziness in this episode. No one seemed to care about the real April.
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 12:32
Quote:
I do think it's fair to note that the real April was violated when the Reaper had sex with Cas.
I agree, and it's another reason why I found that lol!dubcon moment at the end of 9x03 as repellent as Dean's sleaziness in this episode. No one seemed to care about the real April.
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 12:37
Quoting TheHandsomeOne:
Dude, seriously? Another Destiel fangirl pissed that Dean had sex, much less with a woman? Oh, for shame!

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.


Another Cas hater whitewashing abysmal writing because it was just-da-bruddas episode.

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 12:37
Quote:
Dude, seriously? Another Destiel fangirl pissed that Dean had sex, much less with a woman? Oh, for shame!

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
Another Cas hater whitewashing abysmal writing because it was just-da-bruddas episode.

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-02 13:10
Quoting Dawn:
Quoting TheHandsomeOne:
Dude, seriously? Another Destiel fangirl pissed that Dean had sex, much less with a woman? Oh, for shame!

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.


Another Cas hater whitewashing abysmal writing because it was just-da-bruddas episode.

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.


I think both generalizations are inappropriate. Many posters here and at other boards have expressed their dismay at this episode and not all or even most of them have been Destielers or Cas haters.

I'm someone who is less than fond of Cas and although I wasn't offended by this episode, I really do see the arguments for offense. I'm of the opinion that Supernatural has handled certain aspects of sex badly for years. MBFWB springs to mind as well as Lucky totally getting off the hook for watching his "owner" bath, shower, dress and then curl up next to her while she thought he was a dog. Both of those episodes have left me with the idea that "at least we avoided hints of bestiality" and "oh good the creepy voyeur multiple murderer isn't being let go and portrayed as a poor lonely doggy woggy". And I'm not happy that I have had my expectations come to this level.

This is a pretty controversial episode. To me that says that something fell apart in the writing. I do have some issue with the Dean's pursuit of Suzy. If Suzy was an ex stripper who became a nun and counseled a chastity group, I think most viewers would have been unhappy with Dean 1) Bringing up her past and 2) making any move. The fact that she did make a commitment based on belief and past experience shouldn't be given less weight because she is Protestant instead of Catholic. OTOH, if the writers had been better this could have been a look at how Dean, having violated Sam's consent about Zeke is now more willing to push consent issues with everyone. I can see a vague through line with his manipulative (IMHO) speech to Kevin keeping him in the bunker to his denigrating Cas's new job so Cas would drop everything to help Dean NOW as opposed to cleaning up the rest room to here. Sadly I DON'T think this was the intent. I think it was supposed to be funny and cute and for many people it wasn't even a swing and a miss, but truly offensive. I was originally on the swing and a miss train because frankly this episode didn't do much for me. In any case I think the writing needed to be more explicit either by having the sexual encounter be less ambiguous as to Suzy and her desires or more explicit that Dean is starting to overlook boundaries as his complicity with Zeke possessing Sam continues.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-02 13:10
Quote:
Quote:
Dude, seriously? Another Destiel fangirl pissed that Dean had sex, much less with a woman? Oh, for shame!

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
Another Cas hater whitewashing abysmal writing because it was just-da-bruddas episode.

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
I think both generalizations are inappropriate. Many posters here and at other boards have expressed their dismay at this episode and not all or even most of them have been Destielers or Cas haters.

I'm someone who is less than fond of Cas and although I wasn't offended by this episode, I really do see the arguments for offense. I'm of the opinion that Supernatural has handled certain aspects of sex badly for years. MBFWB springs to mind as well as Lucky totally getting off the hook for watching his "owner" bath, shower, dress and then curl up next to her while she thought he was a dog. Both of those episodes have left me with the idea that "at least we avoided hints of bestiality" and "oh good the creepy voyeur multiple murderer isn't being let go and portrayed as a poor lonely doggy woggy". And I'm not happy that I have had my expectations come to this level.

This is a pretty controversial episode. To me that says that something fell apart in the writing. I do have some issue with the Dean's pursuit of Suzy. If Suzy was an ex stripper who became a nun and counseled a chastity group, I think most viewers would have been unhappy with Dean 1) Bringing up her past and 2) making any move. The fact that she did make a commitment based on belief and past experience shouldn't be given less weight because she is Protestant instead of Catholic. OTOH, if the writers had been better this could have been a look at how Dean, having violated Sam's consent about Zeke is now more willing to push consent issues with everyone. I can see a vague through line with his manipulative (IMHO) speech to Kevin keeping him in the bunker to his denigrating Cas's new job so Cas would drop everything to help Dean NOW as opposed to cleaning up the rest room to here. Sadly I DON'T think this was the intent. I think it was supposed to be funny and cute and for many people it wasn't even a swing and a miss, but truly offensive. I was originally on the swing and a miss train because frankly this episode didn't do much for me. In any case I think the writing needed to be more explicit either by having the sexual encounter be less ambiguous as to Suzy and her desires or more explicit that Dean is starting to overlook boundaries as his complicity with Zeke possessing Sam continues.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-02 13:52
Quoting percysowner:
I think both generalizations are inappropriate. Many posters here and at other boards have expressed their dismay at this episode and not all or even most of them have been Destielers or Cas haters.

I'm someone who is less than fond of Cas and although I wasn't offended by this episode, I really do see the arguments for offense. I'm of the opinion that Supernatural has handled certain aspects of sex badly for years. MBFWB springs to mind as well as Lucky totally getting off the hook for watching his "owner" bath, shower, dress and then curl up next to her while she thought he was a dog. Both of those episodes have left me with the idea that "at least we avoided hints of bestiality" and "oh good the creepy voyeur multiple murderer isn't being let go and portrayed as a poor lonely doggy woggy". And I'm not happy that I have had my expectations come to this level.

This is a pretty controversial episode. To me that says that something fell apart in the writing. I do have some issue with the Dean's pursuit of Suzy. If Suzy was an ex stripper who became a nun and counseled a chastity group, I think most viewers would have been unhappy with Dean 1) Bringing up her past and 2) making any move. The fact that she did make a commitment based on belief and past experience shouldn't be given less weight because she is Protestant instead of Catholic. OTOH, if the writers had been better this could have been a look at how Dean, having violated Sam's consent about Zeke is now more willing to push consent issues with everyone. I can see a vague through line with his manipulative (IMHO) speech to Kevin keeping him in the bunker to his denigrating Cas's new job so Cas would drop everything to help Dean NOW as opposed to cleaning up the rest room to here. Sadly I DON'T think this was the intent. I think it was supposed to be funny and cute and for many people it wasn't even a swing and a miss, but truly offensive. I was originally on the swing and a miss train because frankly this episode didn't do much for me. In any case I think the writing needed to be more explicit either by having the sexual encounter be less ambiguous as to Suzy and her desires or more explicit that Dean is starting to overlook boundaries as his complicity with Zeke possessing Sam continues.


Very well said, and thank you! I think a lot of the problems this season for many fans are that these problematic script choices, like Man's Best Friend, like Lucky, etc are now coloring the boys themselves.

It's easier I think for us to cringe but then ignore these things in one-off characters, but these writing choices reflect on Dean and Castiel now, and in a season that is already difficult to watch because of Dean struggling with consent issues about Sam and Ezekiel, it's off putting.

Thank you for being respectful of the opinions and concerns of others, even if you don't fully share them. I appreciate it. It feels like people who WERE bothered by it are being criticized for voicing that.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-02 13:52
Quote:
I think both generalizations are inappropriate. Many posters here and at other boards have expressed their dismay at this episode and not all or even most of them have been Destielers or Cas haters.

I'm someone who is less than fond of Cas and although I wasn't offended by this episode, I really do see the arguments for offense. I'm of the opinion that Supernatural has handled certain aspects of sex badly for years. MBFWB springs to mind as well as Lucky totally getting off the hook for watching his "owner" bath, shower, dress and then curl up next to her while she thought he was a dog. Both of those episodes have left me with the idea that "at least we avoided hints of bestiality" and "oh good the creepy voyeur multiple murderer isn't being let go and portrayed as a poor lonely doggy woggy". And I'm not happy that I have had my expectations come to this level.

This is a pretty controversial episode. To me that says that something fell apart in the writing. I do have some issue with the Dean's pursuit of Suzy. If Suzy was an ex stripper who became a nun and counseled a chastity group, I think most viewers would have been unhappy with Dean 1) Bringing up her past and 2) making any move. The fact that she did make a commitment based on belief and past experience shouldn't be given less weight because she is Protestant instead of Catholic. OTOH, if the writers had been better this could have been a look at how Dean, having violated Sam's consent about Zeke is now more willing to push consent issues with everyone. I can see a vague through line with his manipulative (IMHO) speech to Kevin keeping him in the bunker to his denigrating Cas's new job so Cas would drop everything to help Dean NOW as opposed to cleaning up the rest room to here. Sadly I DON'T think this was the intent. I think it was supposed to be funny and cute and for many people it wasn't even a swing and a miss, but truly offensive. I was originally on the swing and a miss train because frankly this episode didn't do much for me. In any case I think the writing needed to be more explicit either by having the sexual encounter be less ambiguous as to Suzy and her desires or more explicit that Dean is starting to overlook boundaries as his complicity with Zeke possessing Sam continues.
Very well said, and thank you! I think a lot of the problems this season for many fans are that these problematic script choices, like Man's Best Friend, like Lucky, etc are now coloring the boys themselves.

It's easier I think for us to cringe but then ignore these things in one-off characters, but these writing choices reflect on Dean and Castiel now, and in a season that is already difficult to watch because of Dean struggling with consent issues about Sam and Ezekiel, it's off putting.

Thank you for being respectful of the opinions and concerns of others, even if you don't fully share them. I appreciate it. It feels like people who WERE bothered by it are being criticized for voicing that.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-12-02 15:27
Quote:
My take on the whole Dean/Suzy scene was that at the group session Dean thought he recognized Suzy. He went to talk to her and she invites him home to get some "books". I thought that Dean thought that was cover story for let's go to my place. Dean's cover right back was "it's dangerous let me walk you home". When they get there she takes off her top, he lights a candle, he thinks he is being seduced. But as soon as she dumps a bunch of books in his arms he backs right off. When he finds the porn he becomes fanboy telling her that she shouldn't be ashamed of her past. And I agree with Mick she made the first move. My problem with the whole scene is that he turned off his phone while he was on a case with his damaged brother and Jody Mills. A little unprofessional there Dean!
I'm with you on this one Cheryl, that's the way I understood it. He clearly thought that Suzy inviting him home to get books was code for sex. I love Dean, but when it comes to his downstairs brain, it takes over for good ol' common sense. :lol:
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-12-02 15:27
Quote:
My take on the whole Dean/Suzy scene was that at the group session Dean thought he recognized Suzy. He went to talk to her and she invites him home to get some "books". I thought that Dean thought that was cover story for let's go to my place. Dean's cover right back was "it's dangerous let me walk you home". When they get there she takes off her top, he lights a candle, he thinks he is being seduced. But as soon as she dumps a bunch of books in his arms he backs right off. When he finds the porn he becomes fanboy telling her that she shouldn't be ashamed of her past. And I agree with Mick she made the first move. My problem with the whole scene is that he turned off his phone while he was on a case with his damaged brother and Jody Mills. A little unprofessional there Dean!
I'm with you on this one Cheryl, that's the way I understood it. He clearly thought that Suzy inviting him home to get books was code for sex. I love Dean, but when it comes to his downstairs brain, it takes over for good ol' common sense. :lol:
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-02 15:48
:-) :D :lol:
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-02 15:48
:-) :D :lol:
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-02 16:16
Quoting Sylvie:
Quote:
My take on the whole Dean/Suzy scene was that at the group session Dean thought he recognized Suzy. He went to talk to her and she invites him home to get some "books". I thought that Dean thought that was cover story for let's go to my place. Dean's cover right back was "it's dangerous let me walk you home". When they get there she takes off her top, he lights a candle, he thinks he is being seduced. But as soon as she dumps a bunch of books in his arms he backs right off. When he finds the porn he becomes fanboy telling her that she shouldn't be ashamed of her past. And I agree with Mick she made the first move. My problem with the whole scene is that he turned off his phone while he was on a case with his damaged brother and Jody Mills. A little unprofessional there Dean!


I'm with you on this one Cheryl, that's the way I understood it. He clearly thought that Suzy inviting him home to get books was code for sex. I love Dean, but when it comes to his downstairs brain, it takes over for good ol' common sense. :lol:
I may be misremembering, but I thought she said she would go get them. He gave a spiel on needing to keep her safe, etc etc and invited HIMSELF over.

It didn't strike me as a "hey, c'mon back to my place" moment, consequently, particularly not when followed by her breaking down and asking him to pray with her, etc.

Again, we've clearly got multiple interpretations going on, but that's why I couldn't read that scene that way.
Emily Rose
# Emily Rose 2013-12-02 16:16
Quote:
Quote:
My take on the whole Dean/Suzy scene was that at the group session Dean thought he recognized Suzy. He went to talk to her and she invites him home to get some "books". I thought that Dean thought that was cover story for let's go to my place. Dean's cover right back was "it's dangerous let me walk you home". When they get there she takes off her top, he lights a candle, he thinks he is being seduced. But as soon as she dumps a bunch of books in his arms he backs right off. When he finds the porn he becomes fanboy telling her that she shouldn't be ashamed of her past. And I agree with Mick she made the first move. My problem with the whole scene is that he turned off his phone while he was on a case with his damaged brother and Jody Mills. A little unprofessional there Dean!
I'm with you on this one Cheryl, that's the way I understood it. He clearly thought that Suzy inviting him home to get books was code for sex. I love Dean, but when it comes to his downstairs brain, it takes over for good ol' common sense. :lol:
I may be misremembering, but I thought she said she would go get them. He gave a spiel on needing to keep her safe, etc etc and invited HIMSELF over.

It didn't strike me as a "hey, c'mon back to my place" moment, consequently, particularly not when followed by her breaking down and asking him to pray with her, etc.

Again, we've clearly got multiple interpretations going on, but that's why I couldn't read that scene that way.
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 16:45
Quoting percysowner:
Many posters here and at other boards have expressed their dismay at this episode and not all or even most of them have been Destielers


Oh yes, that was my point: to show up how ridiculous that other poster's statement was.

I agree with your final paragraph very much...
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 16:45
Quote:
Many posters here and at other boards have expressed their dismay at this episode and not all or even most of them have been Destielers
Oh yes, that was my point: to show up how ridiculous that other poster's statement was.

I agree with your final paragraph very much...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-02 17:08
Emily Rose I didn't remember it that way I will have to watch again. However when she asked Dean to pray with her you could see him back down. When she went to get more books Dean looked like he was trying to make a getaway until he found the DVD's. Then it definitely became consensual as she very definitely made the first move. Especially after he made her realize she had nothing to be ashamed of. Like I said I think it was a parody of a cheesy porn movie. It worked for some not for others.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-02 17:08
Emily Rose I didn't remember it that way I will have to watch again. However when she asked Dean to pray with her you could see him back down. When she went to get more books Dean looked like he was trying to make a getaway until he found the DVD's. Then it definitely became consensual as she very definitely made the first move. Especially after he made her realize she had nothing to be ashamed of. Like I said I think it was a parody of a cheesy porn movie. It worked for some not for others.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-12-02 17:37
Thank you, percysowner, for being so respectful of people's opinions. I don't require that anyone share my opinion about the show,as I love the exchange of ideas but please don't dismiss my critique by just calling me names.

I've visited a number of sites and what I've found is I'm not actually alone in my distaste for this episode and that there is a subset of fans out there who are willing to insult and criticize the other commenters, and the reviewers too, for their opinion. I read on one site, one of the commenters stating he would never read another review by that person again because he didn't appreciate being confronted with the feminist issues in the review. I understand if you don't see the issues stated in the review (a lot of men didn't see this episode as a problem, that's understandable) but there's no need to be insulting about it.

I found the episode distasteful to me for the same reasons I found MBFWB and All Dogs distasteful. I just felt yucky watching them and thought that none of the characters came off looking good in this episode. Not even Sheriff Jodi Mills.

As much as I love her (and I am crazy about her) I am a WoC who has issues with police brutality (and I can't divorce that side of myself from watching the show. More power to those who can, I guess) and watching her punch that woman in the nose and abuse her authority was very uncomfortable for me to watch. I just couldn't laugh at that.

I couldnt laugh at a lot of the things in this episode. The idea that chaste women are good subjects for ridicule, having Dean riffling through some woman's private belongings and then confronting her about it. (I have had that happen to me, it's not funny. I couldn't laugh at it).I don't blame the characters for any of this. I don't hate the show or any of the characters in the show. I blame the lazy writer who ,like Leming and Buckner, needs to be kept on a tight rein next time she does an episode.

When Supernatural is firing on all thrusters ,it is one of the best "anything" on television but it does have issues and calling those issues out is the job of the reviewers, who should be respected for doing so.

So, thank you.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-12-02 17:37
Thank you, percysowner, for being so respectful of people's opinions. I don't require that anyone share my opinion about the show,as I love the exchange of ideas but please don't dismiss my critique by just calling me names.

I've visited a number of sites and what I've found is I'm not actually alone in my distaste for this episode and that there is a subset of fans out there who are willing to insult and criticize the other commenters, and the reviewers too, for their opinion. I read on one site, one of the commenters stating he would never read another review by that person again because he didn't appreciate being confronted with the feminist issues in the review. I understand if you don't see the issues stated in the review (a lot of men didn't see this episode as a problem, that's understandable) but there's no need to be insulting about it.

I found the episode distasteful to me for the same reasons I found MBFWB and All Dogs distasteful. I just felt yucky watching them and thought that none of the characters came off looking good in this episode. Not even Sheriff Jodi Mills.

As much as I love her (and I am crazy about her) I am a WoC who has issues with police brutality (and I can't divorce that side of myself from watching the show. More power to those who can, I guess) and watching her punch that woman in the nose and abuse her authority was very uncomfortable for me to watch. I just couldn't laugh at that.

I couldnt laugh at a lot of the things in this episode. The idea that chaste women are good subjects for ridicule, having Dean riffling through some woman's private belongings and then confronting her about it. (I have had that happen to me, it's not funny. I couldn't laugh at it).I don't blame the characters for any of this. I don't hate the show or any of the characters in the show. I blame the lazy writer who ,like Leming and Buckner, needs to be kept on a tight rein next time she does an episode.

When Supernatural is firing on all thrusters ,it is one of the best "anything" on television but it does have issues and calling those issues out is the job of the reviewers, who should be respected for doing so.

So, thank you.
TheHandsomeOne
# TheHandsomeOne 2013-12-02 20:25
Quoting Dawn:
Another Cas hater whitewashing abysmal writing because it was just-da-bruddas episode.

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.


Oh, I love me some Cas. I don't need to be a hater to laugh each time a bunch of rabid shippers flip out over the brothers acting on their heterosexual urges. If Dean had been doing this...

...Dean thrust Castiel against the wall, the heavy sound of their breathing echoing through the hall.

"Dean, this is wrong," Castiel urged, clinging helplessly to the elder Winchesters shoulders.

"But it feels so right," Dean mouthed against his lips, before turning the angel against the wall, pressing his...

...you would all be celebrating rather than screaming, "Rape, Rape!" We wouldn't be demanding the writers take a gender studies course. It says a lot about the media today, when a character engaging in genuine masculine behavior, expressing interest in a member of the opposite sex, and acting on it, is seen as creepy, inauthentic, and even morally wrong.
TheHandsomeOne
# TheHandsomeOne 2013-12-02 20:25
Quote:
Another Cas hater whitewashing abysmal writing because it was just-da-bruddas episode.

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
Oh, I love me some Cas. I don't need to be a hater to laugh each time a bunch of rabid shippers flip out over the brothers acting on their heterosexual urges. If Dean had been doing this...

...Dean thrust Castiel against the wall, the heavy sound of their breathing echoing through the hall.

"Dean, this is wrong," Castiel urged, clinging helplessly to the elder Winchesters shoulders.

"But it feels so right," Dean mouthed against his lips, before turning the angel against the wall, pressing his...

...you would all be celebrating rather than screaming, "Rape, Rape!" We wouldn't be demanding the writers take a gender studies course. It says a lot about the media today, when a character engaging in genuine masculine behavior, expressing interest in a member of the opposite sex, and acting on it, is seen as creepy, inauthentic, and even morally wrong.
Niamh
# Niamh 2013-12-02 22:50
Quoting TheHandsomeOne:
Quoting Dawn:
Another Cas hater whitewashing abysmal writing because it was just-da-bruddas episode.

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.


Oh, I love me some Cas. I don't need to be a hater to laugh each time a bunch of rabid shippers flip out over the brothers acting on their heterosexual urges. If Dean had been doing this...

...Dean thrust Castiel against the wall, the heavy sound of their breathing echoing through the hall.

"Dean, this is wrong," Castiel urged, clinging helplessly to the elder Winchesters shoulders.

"But it feels so right," Dean mouthed against his lips, before turning the angel against the wall, pressing his...

...you would all be celebrating rather than screaming, "Rape, Rape!" We wouldn't be demanding the writers take a gender studies course. It says a lot about the media today, when a character engaging in genuine masculine behavior, expressing interest in a member of the opposite sex, and acting on it, is seen as creepy, inauthentic, and even morally wrong.



Congratulations on bringing the tone of the conversation right down. You don't agree with the article fine. But deal with the points that were made, don't just hand wave it as shipping panic when there are plenty of articulate examples of why people were bothered by how the episode was handled. If you can't engage with the discussion in a mature way why not just hold off commenting until you have something interesting to say.

I don't ship at all Fyi and am not a fan of Castiel.

Dean's behaviour came across as skeevy to me, it was cringeworthy to watch and seemed out of character for someone who is all about the pleasure but with women who are always on the exact same page as him i.e. Looking to hook up!

I couldn't help but compare it to the sex addicts meeting in Blades of Glory which used similar stereotypes and a monologue etc. but managed to be funny as hell, because that's the point of the whole movie and the main character was just as much the butt of the joke. Dean wasn't part of the joke here so it came across as cruel humour at the expense of the chastity group....who were all female except for the guy who was already taken. The porn parody scene just didn't work for me and made Jensen look like a bad actor, which he clearly isn't.
Niamh
# Niamh 2013-12-02 22:50
Quote:
Quote:
Another Cas hater whitewashing abysmal writing because it was just-da-bruddas episode.

Nothing new to see here people, carry on.
Oh, I love me some Cas. I don't need to be a hater to laugh each time a bunch of rabid shippers flip out over the brothers acting on their heterosexual urges. If Dean had been doing this...

...Dean thrust Castiel against the wall, the heavy sound of their breathing echoing through the hall.

"Dean, this is wrong," Castiel urged, clinging helplessly to the elder Winchesters shoulders.

"But it feels so right," Dean mouthed against his lips, before turning the angel against the wall, pressing his...

...you would all be celebrating rather than screaming, "Rape, Rape!" We wouldn't be demanding the writers take a gender studies course. It says a lot about the media today, when a character engaging in genuine masculine behavior, expressing interest in a member of the opposite sex, and acting on it, is seen as creepy, inauthentic, and even morally wrong.
Congratulations on bringing the tone of the conversation right down. You don't agree with the article fine. But deal with the points that were made, don't just hand wave it as shipping panic when there are plenty of articulate examples of why people were bothered by how the episode was handled. If you can't engage with the discussion in a mature way why not just hold off commenting until you have something interesting to say.

I don't ship at all Fyi and am not a fan of Castiel.

Dean's behaviour came across as skeevy to me, it was cringeworthy to watch and seemed out of character for someone who is all about the pleasure but with women who are always on the exact same page as him i.e. Looking to hook up!

I couldn't help but compare it to the sex addicts meeting in Blades of Glory which used similar stereotypes and a monologue etc. but managed to be funny as hell, because that's the point of the whole movie and the main character was just as much the butt of the joke. Dean wasn't part of the joke here so it came across as cruel humour at the expense of the chastity group....who were all female except for the guy who was already taken. The porn parody scene just didn't work for me and made Jensen look like a bad actor, which he clearly isn't.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-12-04 00:00
Have you ever heard the staid line " Do you want to see My etchings?" No. Well clearly Dean has. She opened with Do you want to see my chastity books. He said sure. She said I don't live far. Why don't I get them now?. hint hint. He gentlemanly offers to walk her home. She invites him in. She talkes off sweater revealing a revealing top and bends over... she cries. They pray. He's overwhelmed by her star status and gushes. She responds. it turns to flirting and consensual sex. it was played for humor which was a bit weird under the circumstances. But come on Vesta was so over the top self-righteous as well as herself and the prudish church lady. Using born again values for humor is crass, but given Bart's set-up, it appears to be the theme for the season.
Honestly I think the spate of negative reviews on this site is out of character. In all honesty can you all say the negativity is not because Sam has no agency yet this season. He might as well be in a coma for all he has done. So yeah, everything that happens is on Dean.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-12-04 00:00
Have you ever heard the staid line " Do you want to see My etchings?" No. Well clearly Dean has. She opened with Do you want to see my chastity books. He said sure. She said I don't live far. Why don't I get them now?. hint hint. He gentlemanly offers to walk her home. She invites him in. She talkes off sweater revealing a revealing top and bends over... she cries. They pray. He's overwhelmed by her star status and gushes. She responds. it turns to flirting and consensual sex. it was played for humor which was a bit weird under the circumstances. But come on Vesta was so over the top self-righteous as well as herself and the prudish church lady. Using born again values for humor is crass, but given Bart's set-up, it appears to be the theme for the season.
Honestly I think the spate of negative reviews on this site is out of character. In all honesty can you all say the negativity is not because Sam has no agency yet this season. He might as well be in a coma for all he has done. So yeah, everything that happens is on Dean.
kaj
# kaj 2013-12-05 16:21
You know, now I officially dislike Jenny Klein's writing.
It's not a slander for the writer, it's just my opinion and I'm free to like, admire, hate or distaste someone's writing.

Last season she wrote a whiny and undesirable Amelia. This season all of her female characters doesn't have a character and just two-dimensional person with no depth. You'll think that Suzy as a teacher, the one who encourages and guides the others would fight harder against the seduction. Hell, she was crying just minutes before. The sex makes it fake. It was like watching a lead up to a bad porno movie.

The show tells a story about a priest who sleeps with one of the born-again virgin. That is so a porn movie material. So, It's okay if i also set up a porn movie plot using a nun as a character.

If it's a porno movie i will believe it more. Some people got off on the fantasy of banging a nun. So the movie starts with a very serene scene. A hot female porn actress dresses up as nun. Then a hot guy comes in, wants to repent but when he sees the pretty nun he seduces her instead. The nun resists him, of course, although halfheartedly because come on what bad porno movie without at least a little dub-con. But the nun give in just as easily because what do you expect from a porn actress dressing up as a nun. It's the main plot of the movie, that is to get to the sex scene.

All I saw in the whole Dean-Suzy interaction is a porn actress role playing as a hot chastity teacher who then sleep with her student. Perhaps the writer is writing a porn movie and we just confuses it with a supernatural show.

Have i seen a porn movie with plot like that? No and perhaps not yet because I know there are lots with similar set up. I am sure there is at least one with the plot above out there.

It's all fake. The motives, the characterizatio ns, the set up, the weak plot, the scene. Just a leading up scenes for the porn. Hell, I've visited enough fanfiction lands and there are several NC-17 rated fanfics with that plot.
kaj
# kaj 2013-12-05 16:21
You know, now I officially dislike Jenny Klein's writing.
It's not a slander for the writer, it's just my opinion and I'm free to like, admire, hate or distaste someone's writing.

Last season she wrote a whiny and undesirable Amelia. This season all of her female characters doesn't have a character and just two-dimensional person with no depth. You'll think that Suzy as a teacher, the one who encourages and guides the others would fight harder against the seduction. Hell, she was crying just minutes before. The sex makes it fake. It was like watching a lead up to a bad porno movie.

The show tells a story about a priest who sleeps with one of the born-again virgin. That is so a porn movie material. So, It's okay if i also set up a porn movie plot using a nun as a character.

If it's a porno movie i will believe it more. Some people got off on the fantasy of banging a nun. So the movie starts with a very serene scene. A hot female porn actress dresses up as nun. Then a hot guy comes in, wants to repent but when he sees the pretty nun he seduces her instead. The nun resists him, of course, although halfheartedly because come on what bad porno movie without at least a little dub-con. But the nun give in just as easily because what do you expect from a porn actress dressing up as a nun. It's the main plot of the movie, that is to get to the sex scene.

All I saw in the whole Dean-Suzy interaction is a porn actress role playing as a hot chastity teacher who then sleep with her student. Perhaps the writer is writing a porn movie and we just confuses it with a supernatural show.

Have i seen a porn movie with plot like that? No and perhaps not yet because I know there are lots with similar set up. I am sure there is at least one with the plot above out there.

It's all fake. The motives, the characterizatio ns, the set up, the weak plot, the scene. Just a leading up scenes for the porn. Hell, I've visited enough fanfiction lands and there are several NC-17 rated fanfics with that plot.
kaj
# kaj 2013-12-05 16:42
Quoting Emily Rose:


Very well said, and thank you! I think a lot of the problems this season for many fans are that these problematic script choices, like Man's Best Friend, like Lucky, etc are now coloring the boys themselves.


Thank you! Problematic script choice indeed. I don't blame the boys, it's the script that's weak and lazy. It can be written better or maybe that's actually the intention of this ep. Just like the Supernatural sitcom at season 5. Perhaps it'll be better if they just make the whole thing a porn movie parody from the beginning. Complete with the cheesy songs and plot. Like the animation episode last season. Or the black and white classic monster movie in season 4. Let's make this episode Supernatural Porn Episode. I can accept it if that's the case.
kaj
# kaj 2013-12-05 16:42
Quote:


Very well said, and thank you! I think a lot of the problems this season for many fans are that these problematic script choices, like Man's Best Friend, like Lucky, etc are now coloring the boys themselves.
Thank you! Problematic script choice indeed. I don't blame the boys, it's the script that's weak and lazy. It can be written better or maybe that's actually the intention of this ep. Just like the Supernatural sitcom at season 5. Perhaps it'll be better if they just make the whole thing a porn movie parody from the beginning. Complete with the cheesy songs and plot. Like the animation episode last season. Or the black and white classic monster movie in season 4. Let's make this episode Supernatural Porn Episode. I can accept it if that's the case.