I’ve got to be honest. This episode left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Going into the episode I was expecting a bit of comic relief after last week’s awesome drama-fest. But what I got instead was a whole lot of awkward tension. There was some comedy, but not enough to relieve that awful tension.

I love Garth’s character. He has a way of bringing perspective to things. In past episodes the writers have used him to help Sam and Dean sort through their differences. So when I saw Garth in the preview for this episode I expected that was the plan again. But that didn’t really happen. Sure, Garth reinforced the importance of love and family no matter the circumstances. And that’s always been important to Sam and Dean but the lesson wasn’t quite enough to gloss over their current situation. Something I’m both sad and happy about.

I don’t want the writers to take the easy way out with this one. The decisions made by both Sam and Dean have real, raw emotion behind them and Garth swooping in to fix it all would have felt very unearned. Still I can’t help but feel tortured over this strange in-between thing they’ve got going on.

Their conversation at the end of the episode was particularly difficult to stomach.

Sam: “Well something’s broken here, Dean.”
Dean: “I’m not saying that it’s not. I think we just think need to put a couple W’s on the board and we can get past all this.”
Sam: “I don’t think so. No, I wish. But we don’t see things the same way anymore. Our roles in this whole thing. Back in the church, talking me out of boarding up Hell. Or tricking me into letting Gadriel possess me, I can’t trust you. Not the way I thought I could. Not the way I should be able to.”
Dean: “Ok, look. Whatever happened, we’re family ok?”
Sam: “You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all. Like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family.”
Dean: “So what, we’re not family now?”
Sam: “I’m saying, you wanna work? Let’s work. If you wanna be brothers, well, those are my terms.”

I wouldn’t deny that something is definitely broken between these brothers. Trust has been lost, and I understand that. But there is one thing that sticks out that I can’t reconcile; the conversation in the church. Is Sam watching the same show I am? When I watched that episode, I saw a heartfelt, emotional conversation between Sam and Dean. I saw significant emotional healing. Things that had been weighing on Sam’s heart for years were finally lifted. And yes, I saw Dean begging and pleading with Sam not to sacrifice himself. But at the end of the day, Sam made the decision to stop the final trial. So why pin that on Dean? If it’s something he regrets I think he needs to take some of that responsibility for it. I’m totally on board with him being upset with Dean for tricking him into angel possession. Even though I understand Dean’s reasoning, it was a definite violation of trust. But the church is a different story. To be fair, I may be more upset about this than is really justified. It’s just that I absolutely adored that church scene. For me, it was the most emotionally riveting scene since the “stone number one” speech back in season seven. It really tugged at my heart strings and Sam’s comments in this episode have cheapened that moment for me. Using that conversation as part of his basis to distrust Dean makes no sense to me considering that is the most honest either of them has been with each other. Ok, I think I’m beating a dead horse. But am I the only one who was feeling this way?

Either way, Sam and Dean are back hunting together for now. The arrangement is less than ideal, but at least they’re talking, right? I can only hope that some of that tension will ease and they can slowly grow back into their relationship. I don’t know how long I can handle a strictly professional relationship. I’m gonna need some heart-to-heart’s in or around the Impala, and I’m gonna need them soon.

promo002
Now that I’ve gone on and on about the more emotional aspect of the episode, let’s talk about the monster of the week. Am I the only one who was a bit underwhelmed by this storyline? The concept was very interesting; a cult pack of werewolves secretly divided over their opinion of the human race. One half hoping to peacefully coexist with humans while the other half prefers to eliminate the human race. That’s interesting stuff. But unfortunately, the story was lacking in execution for me. I’m not even sure I can pinpoint where it went wrong. It could be that I felt no real connection to any of the werewolf characters. It could also be that I found the threat of human extinction to be not all that threatening. That’s a lot of people to bite.

I was also a little disappointed that the writers didn’t really dig into this realization that werewolves can be born rather than bitten. That’s a serious shift in the lore. Werewolf lore has changed a lot over the seasons. The last episode that dealt with these guys introduced the idea of generations. The closer the werewolf is to the alpha, the more control they have over their cravings and shapeshifting. But the idea that someone can be born a werewolf is a new concept that I would have been interested in learning more about.

All in all, this episode wasn’t bad but the shadow of last week’s superb episode certainly wasn’t doing it any favors. My biggest takeaway from this episode was just how much healing really needs to happen between Sam and Dean to get them back to where they need to be. It’s gonna be a long road, people.

As usual there are some quotes and moments worth mentioning.

Sam: “He’s a Skinny, Ichabod-Crane-looking kind of guy.”

Dean: “I’m gone for two weeks and you’re like an episode of teen mom.”

I was happy that Dean and Sam were able to talk about the mark of Cain. Leave it to Sam to notice it immediately. I was happy for the real concern he seemed to show. And he seems to be the only one who cares what that mark will mean for Dean. Besides us, of course!

I loved the scene where Dean tried to tell Sam that the surveillance cameras were a dead end and Sam was right there waiting for him. Come on, man. He’s not that stupid.

Garth: “This is Dean. He could start a fight in an empty house but deep down inside he’s just a big old teddy bear. And Sam here. Sam can be a bit insecure at times but for good reason, bless his heart.”

Garth: “You come in here guns waving, the jaw lines and the hair, it’s intimidating.”
This is how I feel at every con. Minus the guns, of course.

9.12 Dinner
That dinner scene was so gross and funny. It’s not often that Dean is grossed out enough to keep him from eating red meat.

Rev. Jim “The road to revenge is a dark and lonely one. And that hole in the pit of your stomach, you never fill it, ever.”
Amen Rev. Jim. But unfortunately that statement is going to fall on deaf ears.

Garth: “I found it, love and a family. Who cares where it comes from?”

Garth: “First Kevin, now this.”
Dean: “Hey, Kevin. That’s on me. I’m the one that pulled him into all this. I’m the one that should have been there to protect him.”
Garth: “Well, I guess there’s enough of that blame to go around then.”

Dean: “Besides, somebody’s gotta live to tell this damn story someday. Who better than you?”
I hate when Sam and Dean talk about dying for good.

Dean: “Now, shut up and come here.”
Garth: “Really?”
Dean: “Hurry up before I change my mind.”

Dean: “Listen, that night that we went our separate ways…”
Sam: “You mean the night that you split?”
Dean: “Fair enough. I was messed up, man. Kevin was dead and I...I don’t know what I was.”
Sam: “Ok.”
Dean: “Hell, maybe I still don't. But you know I took a piece of you in the process and for that..Somebody changed the playbook, man. What’s right is wrong, and what’s wrong is more wrong. I just know that when, when we rode together…”
Sam: “We split the crappiness.”

Next week Sam and Dean go undercover as weight loss experts. I have a feeling this could be Sam’s missed calling in life.

Comments  

njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-29 19:03
Nice review, Sofia. I viewed Sam's statement about being talked out of finishing the trials at the church more a result of the guilt he's carrying over Kevin's death. Yes, technically it wasn't his fault but Kevin died at his (possessed) hands; if he had finished the trials, Kevin would probably still be alive, Abaddon and Crowley and company locked up in hell, and the SPN universe would be less crappy, minus Sam of course. That, in addition to being tricked into being possessed by a psycho angel would also make Sam question Dean's motives for asking him to stop the trials. But, given the way Sam's character is written (or underwritten), I can certainly understand other views on this.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-29 19:03
Nice review, Sofia. I viewed Sam's statement about being talked out of finishing the trials at the church more a result of the guilt he's carrying over Kevin's death. Yes, technically it wasn't his fault but Kevin died at his (possessed) hands; if he had finished the trials, Kevin would probably still be alive, Abaddon and Crowley and company locked up in hell, and the SPN universe would be less crappy, minus Sam of course. That, in addition to being tricked into being possessed by a psycho angel would also make Sam question Dean's motives for asking him to stop the trials. But, given the way Sam's character is written (or underwritten), I can certainly understand other views on this.
M
# M 2014-01-29 19:10
i see what you mean about the church scene. i kind of get the feeling that sam now feels like it was emotional manipulation? I don't think it was, but i can see sam thinking that at this point. Who knows though, i could be completely off. It will be interesting to see their new dynamic.
M
# M 2014-01-29 19:10
i see what you mean about the church scene. i kind of get the feeling that sam now feels like it was emotional manipulation? I don't think it was, but i can see sam thinking that at this point. Who knows though, i could be completely off. It will be interesting to see their new dynamic.
Arad
# Arad 2014-01-29 19:31
I agree Sophia. The church scene for me was one of the finest moments of season 8 which seemed to reconcile so much of the tension of that season - so why bring it up now? It can only be in the wake of Kevin's death for which both Winchesters seem desperate to take the credit! All in all I felt the whole thing was pretty lacklustre - and just when I was getting to like Adam Glass (I thought bad boys was brilliant: true to character, honest, subtle and beautifully understated).
Arad
# Arad 2014-01-29 19:31
I agree Sophia. The church scene for me was one of the finest moments of season 8 which seemed to reconcile so much of the tension of that season - so why bring it up now? It can only be in the wake of Kevin's death for which both Winchesters seem desperate to take the credit! All in all I felt the whole thing was pretty lacklustre - and just when I was getting to like Adam Glass (I thought bad boys was brilliant: true to character, honest, subtle and beautifully understated).
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-29 19:44
If Sam had closed the gates of hell, Kevin would still be dead because he was killed by angels. Metatron to be exact. It had nothing to do with demons. Sooner or later, no matter where Kevin was, Metatron would have found a way to do it.

Apparently Sam has decided that everything that has ever gone wrong is because of his family, which would be mostly Dean, I guess. This really puts a damper on Sam's speech at the end of Sacrifice and on what the brother bond really was all these years. IMO

Anyway, nice review Sophia.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-29 19:44
If Sam had closed the gates of hell, Kevin would still be dead because he was killed by angels. Metatron to be exact. It had nothing to do with demons. Sooner or later, no matter where Kevin was, Metatron would have found a way to do it.

Apparently Sam has decided that everything that has ever gone wrong is because of his family, which would be mostly Dean, I guess. This really puts a damper on Sam's speech at the end of Sacrifice and on what the brother bond really was all these years. IMO

Anyway, nice review Sophia.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-29 20:08
This episode left me with more than a bad taste. When it ended, I felt all of the potential and interesting possibilities that were brought up with First Born were swept off the table and left as a big puddle on the writers' room floor. IMO, the episode completely muddled the story that was going on.

Glass twitted he introduced new monster myth because it was needed after nine years. The problem, though, is that it wasn't clear what that new mythology is. Does the moon have nothing to do with a werewolf's basic nature now? Werewolves can be born or made, and I guess the born ones have more control over their basic werewolf nature than the bitten ones...and I am not sure about how the generational thing works but, apparently, if unconditional love is found, all will be okay...I think.

What exactly is Sam mad about? That Dean didn't let him die? That Dean made a decision for him that he didn't want? That Gadreel killed Kevin using Sam's meatsuit? Is Sam's goal still going after Gadreel? Given the confusion over exactly why Sam is mad at Dean, I can't even speculate, and I don't have a clue what Sam's "terms" even involve?

I have no idea anymore what Dean's goal is. Is he still going to go after Abaddon? Is he going to join Sam in going after Gadreel? Does Dean still think he is 'poison,' or is that mindset put aside now because it is more important to stick with family, and how will the new rules play into that.

What exactly is the story this season? Angel war? Demon war? Both wars? Brother reconciliation?

Once the audience is able to determine what the story is, what role will Cas and Crowley play in that? What role with the Winchesters have in the story? Is their story the A-plot or the B-plot? Is this another neck-jerking change of direction like last season?

I really have no clue now.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-29 20:08
This episode left me with more than a bad taste. When it ended, I felt all of the potential and interesting possibilities that were brought up with First Born were swept off the table and left as a big puddle on the writers' room floor. IMO, the episode completely muddled the story that was going on.

Glass twitted he introduced new monster myth because it was needed after nine years. The problem, though, is that it wasn't clear what that new mythology is. Does the moon have nothing to do with a werewolf's basic nature now? Werewolves can be born or made, and I guess the born ones have more control over their basic werewolf nature than the bitten ones...and I am not sure about how the generational thing works but, apparently, if unconditional love is found, all will be okay...I think.

What exactly is Sam mad about? That Dean didn't let him die? That Dean made a decision for him that he didn't want? That Gadreel killed Kevin using Sam's meatsuit? Is Sam's goal still going after Gadreel? Given the confusion over exactly why Sam is mad at Dean, I can't even speculate, and I don't have a clue what Sam's "terms" even involve?

I have no idea anymore what Dean's goal is. Is he still going to go after Abaddon? Is he going to join Sam in going after Gadreel? Does Dean still think he is 'poison,' or is that mindset put aside now because it is more important to stick with family, and how will the new rules play into that.

What exactly is the story this season? Angel war? Demon war? Both wars? Brother reconciliation?

Once the audience is able to determine what the story is, what role will Cas and Crowley play in that? What role with the Winchesters have in the story? Is their story the A-plot or the B-plot? Is this another neck-jerking change of direction like last season?

I really have no clue now.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-01-29 20:14
It's not just you. I agree with everything you said. Underwhelmed by the MoW and really disappoined in the brother's talk - or maybe just tired of the constant pain. SPN is supposed to be my happy place!
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-01-29 20:14
It's not just you. I agree with everything you said. Underwhelmed by the MoW and really disappoined in the brother's talk - or maybe just tired of the constant pain. SPN is supposed to be my happy place!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-29 20:24
I would assume that if Sam had finished the trials he would be dead. Gadreel would not have possessed him and killed Kevin. With Kevin in the bunker it would have been difficult for another angel to have killed him. That is my take on the conversation. It was kind of like Dean bringing up being soulless as an example of Sam's betrayal. It was something that hurt Dean whether it made sense or not. Sam feels that if he had died he would not have been responsible for Kevin's death. Yes Kevin might still be dead but it was an act that affected Sam emotionally (especially with his history of being possessed).
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-29 20:24
I would assume that if Sam had finished the trials he would be dead. Gadreel would not have possessed him and killed Kevin. With Kevin in the bunker it would have been difficult for another angel to have killed him. That is my take on the conversation. It was kind of like Dean bringing up being soulless as an example of Sam's betrayal. It was something that hurt Dean whether it made sense or not. Sam feels that if he had died he would not have been responsible for Kevin's death. Yes Kevin might still be dead but it was an act that affected Sam emotionally (especially with his history of being possessed).
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2014-01-29 20:30
Sophia, I also had to question Sam's thinking when it came to the church scene (or the writers). I guess he feels manipulated by Dean, still. Or maybe he's so angry at Dean now he's confused. Didn't Dean act rather mean and impulsive in this episode? He was just so sinister acting that I was thinking the mark was affecting him. Maybe it's just the beard.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2014-01-29 20:30
Sophia, I also had to question Sam's thinking when it came to the church scene (or the writers). I guess he feels manipulated by Dean, still. Or maybe he's so angry at Dean now he's confused. Didn't Dean act rather mean and impulsive in this episode? He was just so sinister acting that I was thinking the mark was affecting him. Maybe it's just the beard.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-01-29 21:33
I still don't get all of the extreme Sam bashimg going on. I prefer to see that conversation in a positive light. Sam putting his foot down and demanding to be treated like a grown man instead of a child who cant make his own decisions. Its not the one act that has dissolved his trust in Dean. Its all of them. Dean keeps doing it. I understand why and so does Sam but its still rather galling to have someone making decisions for your well being when you are an adult and everytime they do (every time Sam lives) someone else dies (seemingly in place of him.) That's not how it actually is but that is the way he would see it. I se it as leaving the door open for Dean to come back and be family but hes going to do it on Sam terms and those terms are treating him like a grown man and an equal. And I agree. I cant think of a single member of my own family that I would allow to make choices for me because they know better and I'm thoroughly baffled at the fan reaction to Sam. Saying he should just get over it and stop being mean to Dean. This isn't about meanness. Its not about hurt. Its about trust. C 'mon right there in the episode Dean lies to Sam and because Sam knows how he is he thoroughly anticipated Dean doing it (which I thought hilarious, btw.)

I think people need to calm down and quit hating on Sam and try to see it from his point of view even if its difficult and I'm glad that you, Sofia, are at least trying to do that.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-01-29 21:33
I still don't get all of the extreme Sam bashimg going on. I prefer to see that conversation in a positive light. Sam putting his foot down and demanding to be treated like a grown man instead of a child who cant make his own decisions. Its not the one act that has dissolved his trust in Dean. Its all of them. Dean keeps doing it. I understand why and so does Sam but its still rather galling to have someone making decisions for your well being when you are an adult and everytime they do (every time Sam lives) someone else dies (seemingly in place of him.) That's not how it actually is but that is the way he would see it. I se it as leaving the door open for Dean to come back and be family but hes going to do it on Sam terms and those terms are treating him like a grown man and an equal. And I agree. I cant think of a single member of my own family that I would allow to make choices for me because they know better and I'm thoroughly baffled at the fan reaction to Sam. Saying he should just get over it and stop being mean to Dean. This isn't about meanness. Its not about hurt. Its about trust. C 'mon right there in the episode Dean lies to Sam and because Sam knows how he is he thoroughly anticipated Dean doing it (which I thought hilarious, btw.)

I think people need to calm down and quit hating on Sam and try to see it from his point of view even if its difficult and I'm glad that you, Sofia, are at least trying to do that.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-29 21:40
The way I see it. At the church dean finally enabled Sam to understand that dean didn't view his brother as a failure and he did trust in him. This is all Sam ever really wanted from dean. Dean finally let Sam know that he believes in him. Then Sam learns that dean has overridden what would've been SAMs last decision. He learns his brother tricked him into saying yes...but the worst thing dean has done was lie about it to Sam for months. Dean looked Sam right in the face and asked..would I lie? He let Sam believe he was all wrong. That something was wrong with him. And why? Well we get that dean was acting on fear. But I think Sam believes that dean didn't mean what he said at the church. That dean doesn't trust in Sam, because after the speech in the church, dean's first official act is lying to Sam. If I am Sam I would think the same thing, that dean didn't really trust me, he just said what he said so I would stop the trials. So now Sam can't trust what dean says. I understand where Sam is coming from. If dean can't be honest with Sam Sam has to wonder why. Dean has to earn SAMs trust again. The way to do that is to work at the relationship and not just pulling the we're family card as if it was a get out of jail free card. Sam was saying at the end of the ep you want to work let's work, but if you want to be brothers......w e'll they have to work at that too. Just because they are family, it doesn't mean they can screw up and not deal with the real issues. It doesn't work and that's what Sam was saying when he said that dean used that as an excuse for a cure all. Everything that went wrong between them, they never dealt with the true issues. They swept it under the rug in the guise of we are family. But then they have been stuck in that vicious cycle. Sam is stopping that. He's saying to dean that the family card isn't going to cut it any longer. They have to fix what's broken by dealing with it. Sam took the first step at the end of this ep and I am proud of him for it. It might be hard to watch, but it's the only way for both boys to start dealing and begin healing.

Jmo of course
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-29 21:40
The way I see it. At the church dean finally enabled Sam to understand that dean didn't view his brother as a failure and he did trust in him. This is all Sam ever really wanted from dean. Dean finally let Sam know that he believes in him. Then Sam learns that dean has overridden what would've been SAMs last decision. He learns his brother tricked him into saying yes...but the worst thing dean has done was lie about it to Sam for months. Dean looked Sam right in the face and asked..would I lie? He let Sam believe he was all wrong. That something was wrong with him. And why? Well we get that dean was acting on fear. But I think Sam believes that dean didn't mean what he said at the church. That dean doesn't trust in Sam, because after the speech in the church, dean's first official act is lying to Sam. If I am Sam I would think the same thing, that dean didn't really trust me, he just said what he said so I would stop the trials. So now Sam can't trust what dean says. I understand where Sam is coming from. If dean can't be honest with Sam Sam has to wonder why. Dean has to earn SAMs trust again. The way to do that is to work at the relationship and not just pulling the we're family card as if it was a get out of jail free card. Sam was saying at the end of the ep you want to work let's work, but if you want to be brothers......w e'll they have to work at that too. Just because they are family, it doesn't mean they can screw up and not deal with the real issues. It doesn't work and that's what Sam was saying when he said that dean used that as an excuse for a cure all. Everything that went wrong between them, they never dealt with the true issues. They swept it under the rug in the guise of we are family. But then they have been stuck in that vicious cycle. Sam is stopping that. He's saying to dean that the family card isn't going to cut it any longer. They have to fix what's broken by dealing with it. Sam took the first step at the end of this ep and I am proud of him for it. It might be hard to watch, but it's the only way for both boys to start dealing and begin healing.

Jmo of course
Puck
# Puck 2014-01-29 21:44
Nice write up Sophia.

Quoting Daisymae:
Sophia, I also had to question Sam's thinking when it came to the church scene (or the writers). I guess he feels manipulated by Dean, still. Or maybe he's so angry at Dean now he's confused. Didn't Dean act rather mean and impulsive in this episode? He was just so sinister acting that I was thinking the mark was affecting him.


M, Ikeke, nappi--I think that's it exactly. Sam was so out of it at the church he's questioning if Dean talked him out of finishing the trials truly out of love or just to keep from being alone. Then allow his body to be possessed, when so many have already possessed it? Double the trouble...and pain...dealt to a guy who already felt like he had never lived up to his family's expectations or still being treated like an unruly teen after standing up to Lucifer and locking him back in the box. Wouldn't you be angry?

Dean is always impulsive--it's what got us into this mess to start off--even back to season 2. Mean? No. Sarcastic? Damn straight. Out of his comfort zone? Hell yeah! It's a valid point to wonder what the Mark is doing to him, but honestly this seemed like a compassionate Dean--or at least all of it he could come up with while being weighed down by guilt, grief, and knowing how much his only flesh-and-blood family hates his guts right now. Sure, it was more pushing Sam away, but Dean didn't want his brother to get hurt more being around him on the case. Clearly, Dean is still thinking of himself as "poison," but he seems to have a much better grasp on things than last week.
Puck
# Puck 2014-01-29 21:44
Nice write up Sophia.

Quote:
Sophia, I also had to question Sam's thinking when it came to the church scene (or the writers). I guess he feels manipulated by Dean, still. Or maybe he's so angry at Dean now he's confused. Didn't Dean act rather mean and impulsive in this episode? He was just so sinister acting that I was thinking the mark was affecting him.
M, Ikeke, nappi--I think that's it exactly. Sam was so out of it at the church he's questioning if Dean talked him out of finishing the trials truly out of love or just to keep from being alone. Then allow his body to be possessed, when so many have already possessed it? Double the trouble...and pain...dealt to a guy who already felt like he had never lived up to his family's expectations or still being treated like an unruly teen after standing up to Lucifer and locking him back in the box. Wouldn't you be angry?

Dean is always impulsive--it's what got us into this mess to start off--even back to season 2. Mean? No. Sarcastic? Damn straight. Out of his comfort zone? Hell yeah! It's a valid point to wonder what the Mark is doing to him, but honestly this seemed like a compassionate Dean--or at least all of it he could come up with while being weighed down by guilt, grief, and knowing how much his only flesh-and-blood family hates his guts right now. Sure, it was more pushing Sam away, but Dean didn't want his brother to get hurt more being around him on the case. Clearly, Dean is still thinking of himself as "poison," but he seems to have a much better grasp on things than last week.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-01-29 21:53
I respectfully disagree with you about this. I think it hurts like hell, but it is necessary to go through the current Sam and Dean situation. I've also seen a lot of criticism of Sam on Twitter and I'm personally astounded by this.

We all spoke about Dean's impossible choice at the beginning of the year; we knew it was wrong but we were glad he saved Sam. We also knew that Sam would be pissed... and now that he is, people are upset with him. Why?

Yes, Dean is in a dark place. I feel incredibly sad for him. But what makes you think Sam isn't in a dark place too? He told Death that he couldn't face being responsible for anyone else being hurt because of him. And now he knows about Kevin. We all know it wasn't his fault that Kevin died, but that doesn't mean it's not a heavy burden for Sam.

I also don't think the scene in the church is diminished. I think it's the key to how Sam is feeling right now.

Imagine going through that final trial, emotionally baring yourself to your brother, telling him that it hurts that his brother trusted an angel and a vampire over him... to then be convinced by your brother that this isn't true... that he trusts him... that going forward they can fight this battle together.

Fast forward several months and Sam suddenly has all those memories flooding back from the 'lost' time when he was possessed by Gadreel - to realize that Dean never gave him a choice, to realize how often Dean lied to him during that period (remember the scene in the car when Dean said 'trust me' about Sam's lost time).

I agree that Dean made the only choice he could to save Sam (and I love him for it), but he could've tried to tell Sam about it as soon as Sam was conscious again. He could've laid out all the facts - that Sam lets the angel stay to heal him or he evicts him and dies. That would've been trusting Sam to make the right decision.

Did I want Sam to explain how he is feeling to Dean? Of course I did. There was a pause before he said "Those are my terms" - I think he wanted to say more but he couldn't. Or he wants Dean to figure it out. I don't know. But to judge Sam for having a very human reaction - when we all predicted he would be rightly pissed - is incredibly harsh.

I also don't think Sam can see beyond his own grief YET, to even comprehend how badly Dean is coping. I believe Sam will come to understand why Dean did what he did, but he's not there yet. And, I for one, totally understand that it will take more time and more talking.

Just my humble opinion :-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-01-29 21:53
I respectfully disagree with you about this. I think it hurts like hell, but it is necessary to go through the current Sam and Dean situation. I've also seen a lot of criticism of Sam on Twitter and I'm personally astounded by this.

We all spoke about Dean's impossible choice at the beginning of the year; we knew it was wrong but we were glad he saved Sam. We also knew that Sam would be pissed... and now that he is, people are upset with him. Why?

Yes, Dean is in a dark place. I feel incredibly sad for him. But what makes you think Sam isn't in a dark place too? He told Death that he couldn't face being responsible for anyone else being hurt because of him. And now he knows about Kevin. We all know it wasn't his fault that Kevin died, but that doesn't mean it's not a heavy burden for Sam.

I also don't think the scene in the church is diminished. I think it's the key to how Sam is feeling right now.

Imagine going through that final trial, emotionally baring yourself to your brother, telling him that it hurts that his brother trusted an angel and a vampire over him... to then be convinced by your brother that this isn't true... that he trusts him... that going forward they can fight this battle together.

Fast forward several months and Sam suddenly has all those memories flooding back from the 'lost' time when he was possessed by Gadreel - to realize that Dean never gave him a choice, to realize how often Dean lied to him during that period (remember the scene in the car when Dean said 'trust me' about Sam's lost time).

I agree that Dean made the only choice he could to save Sam (and I love him for it), but he could've tried to tell Sam about it as soon as Sam was conscious again. He could've laid out all the facts - that Sam lets the angel stay to heal him or he evicts him and dies. That would've been trusting Sam to make the right decision.

Did I want Sam to explain how he is feeling to Dean? Of course I did. There was a pause before he said "Those are my terms" - I think he wanted to say more but he couldn't. Or he wants Dean to figure it out. I don't know. But to judge Sam for having a very human reaction - when we all predicted he would be rightly pissed - is incredibly harsh.

I also don't think Sam can see beyond his own grief YET, to even comprehend how badly Dean is coping. I believe Sam will come to understand why Dean did what he did, but he's not there yet. And, I for one, totally understand that it will take more time and more talking.

Just my humble opinion :-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-29 22:18
Amen kg spn, amen....thanks for that :-)
And a big amen to you as we'll ikeke ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-29 22:18
Amen kg spn, amen....thanks for that :-)
And a big amen to you as we'll ikeke ;-)
GwenT
# GwenT 2014-01-29 22:27
#12 KG_SPN - I totally get and agree with everything you wrote. Well said.
For me, the episode wasn't fantastic, but it still held my interest. It's difficult to see the brothers at odds (again), but I have faith that everything will work out eventually. I can only hope it doesn't take too long for a reconciliation.
At the top of my wish list ... DEAN being knocked unconscious and tied up somewhere, and SAM bursting in to save him. Wouldn't that be great?
GwenT
# GwenT 2014-01-29 22:27
#12 KG_SPN - I totally get and agree with everything you wrote. Well said.
For me, the episode wasn't fantastic, but it still held my interest. It's difficult to see the brothers at odds (again), but I have faith that everything will work out eventually. I can only hope it doesn't take too long for a reconciliation.
At the top of my wish list ... DEAN being knocked unconscious and tied up somewhere, and SAM bursting in to save him. Wouldn't that be great?
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-29 22:50
In the speech in Sacifice Dean never mentions "trust." What Dean says is he puts Sam above everything else, even other's lives. He actually mentions killing Benny to save Sam as proof of his devotion to Sam. So I don't know how this has become interpreted as Dean saying anything different then what he has always said or going forward doing anything differently then he always has. Dean is nothing if not consistent about his devotion to Sam.

Knowing Dean, as Sam surely does, Sam stopped doing the trials and later said yes to Dean's plan on not dying without question. In both instances Sam could have chosen to make his own decision and not done what Dean wanted him to do. So Sam decides to let Dean make the decision and then blames him completely when the decision goes south. Sam is always waffling about what he wants. Dean is always willing to jump in with both feet and worry about consequences later.

Like Ginger I'm confused about what story we are being told. I was very interested after "First Born" to see where the MoC took the story but that seems to have been dropped along with finding Gadreel. Sam and Dean are working together but not as family. How does that work or even make sense? What are the terms of this new arrangement and did Dean even agree to them? I think I would rather have them apart then together like this.

Do the writers actually know what happens in previous episodes? It seems like each writer is telling their own story and not necessarily connecting to previous ones. And apparently Jeremy Carver, like God, has left the building and is allowing the free will of the different writers to control the direction of the show. As a devoted fan I feel like I'm the one being manipulated.

Alice feel free to delete my rant as negative and bitchy but it sure feels good to say it anyway.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-29 22:50
In the speech in Sacifice Dean never mentions "trust." What Dean says is he puts Sam above everything else, even other's lives. He actually mentions killing Benny to save Sam as proof of his devotion to Sam. So I don't know how this has become interpreted as Dean saying anything different then what he has always said or going forward doing anything differently then he always has. Dean is nothing if not consistent about his devotion to Sam.

Knowing Dean, as Sam surely does, Sam stopped doing the trials and later said yes to Dean's plan on not dying without question. In both instances Sam could have chosen to make his own decision and not done what Dean wanted him to do. So Sam decides to let Dean make the decision and then blames him completely when the decision goes south. Sam is always waffling about what he wants. Dean is always willing to jump in with both feet and worry about consequences later.

Like Ginger I'm confused about what story we are being told. I was very interested after "First Born" to see where the MoC took the story but that seems to have been dropped along with finding Gadreel. Sam and Dean are working together but not as family. How does that work or even make sense? What are the terms of this new arrangement and did Dean even agree to them? I think I would rather have them apart then together like this.

Do the writers actually know what happens in previous episodes? It seems like each writer is telling their own story and not necessarily connecting to previous ones. And apparently Jeremy Carver, like God, has left the building and is allowing the free will of the different writers to control the direction of the show. As a devoted fan I feel like I'm the one being manipulated.

Alice feel free to delete my rant as negative and bitchy but it sure feels good to say it anyway.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-01-29 23:12
I'm going to try to respond to you Prix68

Quote:
In the speech in Sacifice Dean never mentions "trust."
Dean didn't mention trust, but he was responding to Sam who did talk about Dean trusting a vampire and an angel over him... and Dean replied that it wasn't like that. So Sam would've taken this to mean that Dean does trust him - and yet he didn't at the beginning of this season. Hence Sam now not believing Dean (that's my opinion).

Quote:
I was very interested after "First Born" to see where the MoC took the story but that seems to have been dropped along with finding Gadreel.
Every season has standalone episodes. It doesn't mean they've dropped the ongoing story. Crowley is off looking for the blade; Castiel is looking for Metatron. This is the formula SPN has used quite successfully every season and I doubt it will ever change.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I love the work that Jeremy Carver has done since taking over as show-runner. Is it perfect? No. But, for me, Supernatural is one of the most compelling programs on TV :-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-01-29 23:12
I'm going to try to respond to you Prix68

Quote:
In the speech in Sacifice Dean never mentions "trust."
Dean didn't mention trust, but he was responding to Sam who did talk about Dean trusting a vampire and an angel over him... and Dean replied that it wasn't like that. So Sam would've taken this to mean that Dean does trust him - and yet he didn't at the beginning of this season. Hence Sam now not believing Dean (that's my opinion).

Quote:
I was very interested after "First Born" to see where the MoC took the story but that seems to have been dropped along with finding Gadreel.
Every season has standalone episodes. It doesn't mean they've dropped the ongoing story. Crowley is off looking for the blade; Castiel is looking for Metatron. This is the formula SPN has used quite successfully every season and I doubt it will ever change.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I love the work that Jeremy Carver has done since taking over as show-runner. Is it perfect? No. But, for me, Supernatural is one of the most compelling programs on TV :-)
alice
# alice 2014-01-29 23:26
Ikeke35 - Extreme Sam bashing? Where? On Twitter? I do agree, it's bad there, but the tone here on this site has been alright. I've been reading through comments and where a couple of comments may have crossed a line, I don't see anything extreme.

If there are any comments here that anyone think are offensive, please report them to the administrator. I'll look into it. But this episode has pushed some buttons, so I'm trying to allow honest discussions while keeping the peace.

I do get the frustrations. I have a few, but just watch your wording where it sounds like character bashing. We really don't want that because it gets people upset. Now, if you want to say the writers are making a certain character look bad, I'll allow that.
Alice
# Alice 2014-01-29 23:26
Ikeke35 - Extreme Sam bashing? Where? On Twitter? I do agree, it's bad there, but the tone here on this site has been alright. I've been reading through comments and where a couple of comments may have crossed a line, I don't see anything extreme.

If there are any comments here that anyone think are offensive, please report them to the administrator. I'll look into it. But this episode has pushed some buttons, so I'm trying to allow honest discussions while keeping the peace.

I do get the frustrations. I have a few, but just watch your wording where it sounds like character bashing. We really don't want that because it gets people upset. Now, if you want to say the writers are making a certain character look bad, I'll allow that.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-01-30 03:02
I would be just curious to what brothers relationship people want ?. Do we have one where Dean has full autonomy over everything which is what we have pretty much anyway or a true brothers relationship where Sam is allowed a voice .

Was Sam so far from the truth in that speech ? did he not have any bases for his position ? or was it he said anything to Dean at all ? . Does he say nothing and the status quo in the relationship continues in the same way , with nothing changing and Dean continues to do what he deems he has the right to do where Sam is concerned and Sam accepts it because it what Dean does.

But again this was a typical SPN episode where Sam was concerned so maybe it was not one for me.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-01-30 03:02
I would be just curious to what brothers relationship people want ?. Do we have one where Dean has full autonomy over everything which is what we have pretty much anyway or a true brothers relationship where Sam is allowed a voice .

Was Sam so far from the truth in that speech ? did he not have any bases for his position ? or was it he said anything to Dean at all ? . Does he say nothing and the status quo in the relationship continues in the same way , with nothing changing and Dean continues to do what he deems he has the right to do where Sam is concerned and Sam accepts it because it what Dean does.

But again this was a typical SPN episode where Sam was concerned so maybe it was not one for me.
sofia
# sofia 2014-01-30 08:22
Quoting Arad:
I agree Sophia. The church scene for me was one of the finest moments of season 8 which seemed to reconcile so much of the tension of that season - so why bring it up now? It can only be in the wake of Kevin's death for which both Winchesters seem desperate to take the credit! All in all I felt the whole thing was pretty lacklustre - and just when I was getting to like Adam Glass (I thought bad boys was brilliant: true to character, honest, subtle and beautifully understated).


Yeah, it seems to be the consensus that Sam is speaking out of guilt for Kevin's death. I guess that makes sense since he is determined to be at fault for it.

I'm gonna give Adam Glass a pass on this one. Everyone writes a less-than-perfe ct episode every now and then. And let's be honest, I'd rather watch a lackluster episode of Supernatural than just about anything else.
sofia
# sofia 2014-01-30 08:22
Quote:
I agree Sophia. The church scene for me was one of the finest moments of season 8 which seemed to reconcile so much of the tension of that season - so why bring it up now? It can only be in the wake of Kevin's death for which both Winchesters seem desperate to take the credit! All in all I felt the whole thing was pretty lacklustre - and just when I was getting to like Adam Glass (I thought bad boys was brilliant: true to character, honest, subtle and beautifully understated).
Yeah, it seems to be the consensus that Sam is speaking out of guilt for Kevin's death. I guess that makes sense since he is determined to be at fault for it.

I'm gonna give Adam Glass a pass on this one. Everyone writes a less-than-perfe ct episode every now and then. And let's be honest, I'd rather watch a lackluster episode of Supernatural than just about anything else.
sofia
# sofia 2014-01-30 08:25
Quoting Daisymae:
Sophia, I also had to question Sam's thinking when it came to the church scene (or the writers). I guess he feels manipulated by Dean, still. Or maybe he's so angry at Dean now he's confused. Didn't Dean act rather mean and impulsive in this episode? He was just so sinister acting that I was thinking the mark was affecting him. Maybe it's just the beard.


LOL! "Maybe it's just the beard". But it's true. The beard threw me for a loop.
sofia
# sofia 2014-01-30 08:25
Quote:
Sophia, I also had to question Sam's thinking when it came to the church scene (or the writers). I guess he feels manipulated by Dean, still. Or maybe he's so angry at Dean now he's confused. Didn't Dean act rather mean and impulsive in this episode? He was just so sinister acting that I was thinking the mark was affecting him. Maybe it's just the beard.
LOL! "Maybe it's just the beard". But it's true. The beard threw me for a loop.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-30 09:47
Sharon - I believe Sam has every right to have a voice but he needs to have it in making the decision not blaming Dean after the decision is made. My problem with the brother troubles this season in particular is that Dean had to choose to have Sam live at all costs because the show is about two brothers. Dean really had no right choice there. Same with the lies. It feels like the myth arc the last two seasons has really been about pitting the two brothers against each other and not the bad guys. In the earlier seasons the differences between the brothers seemed real and valid not constructed to get a rise out of fans.

I thought the premise of the show was two brothers standing together to fight evil. Now most of the monsters are shown more sympathetically then the brothers. Sam now has no real point of view or it is so cryptic it could mean anything. Dean is always the needy dependent brother whose every motive is suspect. Dean is right when he said what used to be right is wrong and what is wrong is more wrong. That describes the show for me lately.

We could have every bit of the suspense and drama in the show without the brothers constantly fighting each other in a hurtful way. I don't blame Sam, I don't blame Dean, I blame the writers and I fear that with the increased ratings they are going to think this is a winning formula. Think of the comments on this site alone. Most are about defending either Sam or Dean or trying to defend both. Shouldn't it be about how they are going to tackle the bad guys not each other?

What relationship do I want? I want them them to value the bond they have over the mistakes they've made. I would have liked Sam to say that he understood that Dean made a desperate decision under difficult circumstances that went sideways and that maybe he would have done the same thing in Dean's place. I want Dean to admit that he wasn't considering the future consequences because he always acts first and worries about consequences latter and that was wrong and dangerous. I would have liked Sam to say he was still pissed at Dean for the lying and angel possession but Dean was his brother and he loved him more and they had both made some mistakes in the past but what mattered is that they learn from them and move forward. I want Sam to save Dean's life and Dean to save Sam's life. I want Sam to stop getting hit in the head and I want Dean to stop being so needy where Sam is concerned. Garth was right when he said there is enough guilt to go around. I want Sam and Dean to stop piling it on each other. I want the writers to stop pitting Sam and Dean against each other in major ways. I don't want a season long arc of brother against brother. I don't want the family business to be about two brothers who are constantly at odds stuck together in a car causing more damage then good. I want what I felt in the early days to still be there. I'm so very done with the blame game and the rehashing of old wounds. What is done is done and can't be undone so move on. That's what I personally want.

Just a side note. Actually Dean does listen to Sam's decisions as he did this week when Sam told him to slow down on ganking Garth and all of the family and do things right.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-30 09:47
Sharon - I believe Sam has every right to have a voice but he needs to have it in making the decision not blaming Dean after the decision is made. My problem with the brother troubles this season in particular is that Dean had to choose to have Sam live at all costs because the show is about two brothers. Dean really had no right choice there. Same with the lies. It feels like the myth arc the last two seasons has really been about pitting the two brothers against each other and not the bad guys. In the earlier seasons the differences between the brothers seemed real and valid not constructed to get a rise out of fans.

I thought the premise of the show was two brothers standing together to fight evil. Now most of the monsters are shown more sympathetically then the brothers. Sam now has no real point of view or it is so cryptic it could mean anything. Dean is always the needy dependent brother whose every motive is suspect. Dean is right when he said what used to be right is wrong and what is wrong is more wrong. That describes the show for me lately.

We could have every bit of the suspense and drama in the show without the brothers constantly fighting each other in a hurtful way. I don't blame Sam, I don't blame Dean, I blame the writers and I fear that with the increased ratings they are going to think this is a winning formula. Think of the comments on this site alone. Most are about defending either Sam or Dean or trying to defend both. Shouldn't it be about how they are going to tackle the bad guys not each other?

What relationship do I want? I want them them to value the bond they have over the mistakes they've made. I would have liked Sam to say that he understood that Dean made a desperate decision under difficult circumstances that went sideways and that maybe he would have done the same thing in Dean's place. I want Dean to admit that he wasn't considering the future consequences because he always acts first and worries about consequences latter and that was wrong and dangerous. I would have liked Sam to say he was still pissed at Dean for the lying and angel possession but Dean was his brother and he loved him more and they had both made some mistakes in the past but what mattered is that they learn from them and move forward. I want Sam to save Dean's life and Dean to save Sam's life. I want Sam to stop getting hit in the head and I want Dean to stop being so needy where Sam is concerned. Garth was right when he said there is enough guilt to go around. I want Sam and Dean to stop piling it on each other. I want the writers to stop pitting Sam and Dean against each other in major ways. I don't want a season long arc of brother against brother. I don't want the family business to be about two brothers who are constantly at odds stuck together in a car causing more damage then good. I want what I felt in the early days to still be there. I'm so very done with the blame game and the rehashing of old wounds. What is done is done and can't be undone so move on. That's what I personally want.

Just a side note. Actually Dean does listen to Sam's decisions as he did this week when Sam told him to slow down on ganking Garth and all of the family and do things right.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 10:05
i get sam 's doubt of dean right now and i totally get why adam glass brought up the trials. really take a moment to think about sam's speech to dean in sacrifice. he said to dean "what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again?, who are you going to turn to instead of me, another angel? another, another vampire? do you have any idea what it's like to watch your brother......th en dean cuts sam off. "wait is that what you really think, because it's never been like that ever".....right there, dean was reassuring sam that he never trusted anyone over him. he convinced sam that he in fact came first. dean didn't see sam as a failure. it's sam's belief in dean's words that convinced him to stop the trials. sam finally believed that dean trusted him and didn't see him as failure sam sees himself to be. then sam learns that dean has been lying to him since that night. he was tricked into saying yes to gadreel and then dean continued to lie to sam. dean let him believe there was something wrong inside him. that it was just him and not the trials. still dean didn't tell sam the truth. then when sam does learn the truth, well for the life of me i can't understand why it's so hard to understand why he would doubt dean at the church. of course he's going to believe that dean doesn't truly trust him, sam's going to think that dean simply said those things so that dean wouldn't be alone? can you not see where sam is coming from? his thinking is that if dean truly trusted in him as he claimed, then why did he find the need to lie to him, for so very long? for sam , dean gives him words of reassurance and then dean's first act since those words are tricking him and lying to him. not for nothing, but of course sam is doubting dean's words. dean hasn't showed any true belief in sam, by lying to him, for sam, those words from dean don't ring true.
now we the audience know the lies came from fear. we all know dean did mean what he said at that church, but really what's sam supposed to believe? dean hasn't showed any faith in him at all.
i don't think glass diminished what was said at the church at all. as a matter of fact, i think it's more of a point that sam was trying to make to dean. sam questions dean's words because of dean's lying to sam. by dean lying, dean hasn't shown sam any real trust, so sam is reverting back to his beliefs before the trial, that dean doesn't really trust in him and still views sam as someone who's always failed him.

sam is in need of proof that that isn't the case. he needs to believe dean's words were true, but to do that, dean needs to earn sam's trust again. he needs to show sam that he does in fact believe in him and trust in him. sweeping everything under the rug, going back to their normal routine of just working and waiting it out isn't going to fix what's wrong. it's just going to continue that vicious cycle. no, sam is saying that they will work together because their working relationship isn't the problem, but if they are going to be brothers, then they have to work at it. that was sam's point to dean , and the we're family card can't fix what's wrong. they have to deal with their issues with ea. other to fix what's wrong.

although sam was hurt and angry and didn't get into it with dean at that moment, sam got into baby without hesitation. he went with his brother when he could've turned around and got in that awesome car he was driving and rode away. but sam loves dean and wants to fix what's wrong. he took the first step in doing just that.



jmo of course.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 10:05
i get sam 's doubt of dean right now and i totally get why adam glass brought up the trials. really take a moment to think about sam's speech to dean in sacrifice. he said to dean "what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again?, who are you going to turn to instead of me, another angel? another, another vampire? do you have any idea what it's like to watch your brother......th en dean cuts sam off. "wait is that what you really think, because it's never been like that ever".....right there, dean was reassuring sam that he never trusted anyone over him. he convinced sam that he in fact came first. dean didn't see sam as a failure. it's sam's belief in dean's words that convinced him to stop the trials. sam finally believed that dean trusted him and didn't see him as failure sam sees himself to be. then sam learns that dean has been lying to him since that night. he was tricked into saying yes to gadreel and then dean continued to lie to sam. dean let him believe there was something wrong inside him. that it was just him and not the trials. still dean didn't tell sam the truth. then when sam does learn the truth, well for the life of me i can't understand why it's so hard to understand why he would doubt dean at the church. of course he's going to believe that dean doesn't truly trust him, sam's going to think that dean simply said those things so that dean wouldn't be alone? can you not see where sam is coming from? his thinking is that if dean truly trusted in him as he claimed, then why did he find the need to lie to him, for so very long? for sam , dean gives him words of reassurance and then dean's first act since those words are tricking him and lying to him. not for nothing, but of course sam is doubting dean's words. dean hasn't showed any true belief in sam, by lying to him, for sam, those words from dean don't ring true.
now we the audience know the lies came from fear. we all know dean did mean what he said at that church, but really what's sam supposed to believe? dean hasn't showed any faith in him at all.
i don't think glass diminished what was said at the church at all. as a matter of fact, i think it's more of a point that sam was trying to make to dean. sam questions dean's words because of dean's lying to sam. by dean lying, dean hasn't shown sam any real trust, so sam is reverting back to his beliefs before the trial, that dean doesn't really trust in him and still views sam as someone who's always failed him.

sam is in need of proof that that isn't the case. he needs to believe dean's words were true, but to do that, dean needs to earn sam's trust again. he needs to show sam that he does in fact believe in him and trust in him. sweeping everything under the rug, going back to their normal routine of just working and waiting it out isn't going to fix what's wrong. it's just going to continue that vicious cycle. no, sam is saying that they will work together because their working relationship isn't the problem, but if they are going to be brothers, then they have to work at it. that was sam's point to dean , and the we're family card can't fix what's wrong. they have to deal with their issues with ea. other to fix what's wrong.

although sam was hurt and angry and didn't get into it with dean at that moment, sam got into baby without hesitation. he went with his brother when he could've turned around and got in that awesome car he was driving and rode away. but sam loves dean and wants to fix what's wrong. he took the first step in doing just that.



jmo of course.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-30 11:13
Quoting Sharon:
I would be just curious to what brothers relationship people want ?. Do we have one where Dean has full autonomy over everything which is what we have pretty much anyway or a true brothers relationship where Sam is allowed a voice .

Was Sam so far from the truth in that speech ? did he not have any bases for his position ? or was it he said anything to Dean at all ? . Does he say nothing and the status quo in the relationship continues in the same way , with nothing changing and Dean continues to do what he deems he has the right to do where Sam is concerned and Sam accepts it because it what Dean does.

But again this was a typical SPN episode where Sam was concerned so maybe it was not one for me.

I don't know what kind of relation "people" want,but I think the Sam we got this episode was perfect.I like this Sam who is not possessed,de-so uled etc.He did not mince his words said what he wanted to say and well overall a win for me.This episode was good I hope they build on it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-30 11:13
Quote:
I would be just curious to what brothers relationship people want ?. Do we have one where Dean has full autonomy over everything which is what we have pretty much anyway or a true brothers relationship where Sam is allowed a voice .

Was Sam so far from the truth in that speech ? did he not have any bases for his position ? or was it he said anything to Dean at all ? . Does he say nothing and the status quo in the relationship continues in the same way , with nothing changing and Dean continues to do what he deems he has the right to do where Sam is concerned and Sam accepts it because it what Dean does.

But again this was a typical SPN episode where Sam was concerned so maybe it was not one for me.
I don't know what kind of relation "people" want,but I think the Sam we got this episode was perfect.I like this Sam who is not possessed,de-so uled etc.He did not mince his words said what he wanted to say and well overall a win for me.This episode was good I hope they build on it.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-01-30 14:16
Quoting anonymousN:
Quoting Sharon:
I would be just curious to what brothers relationship people want ?. Do we have one where Dean has full autonomy over everything which is what we have pretty much anyway or a true brothers relationship where Sam is allowed a voice .

Was Sam so far from the truth in that speech ? did he not have any bases for his position ? or was it he said anything to Dean at all ? . Does he say nothing and the status quo in the relationship continues in the same way , with nothing changing and Dean continues to do what he deems he has the right to do where Sam is concerned and Sam accepts it because it what Dean does.

But again this was a typical SPN episode where Sam was concerned so maybe it was not one for me.

I don't know what kind of relation "people" want,but I think the Sam we got this episode was perfect.I like this Sam who is not possessed,de-souled etc.He did not mince his words said what he wanted to say and well overall a win for me.This episode was good I hope they build on it.

I like this Sam, too. The problem with the brothers not talking to each other is due to Dean always cutting Sam off every time he wants to discuss something. Dean needs to rethink that if they are to be brothers again.
I'm sorry, but I have brothers and they do talk. Not in the same way women do, but they at least communicate with each other so that excuse doesn't float for me.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-01-30 14:16
Quote:
Quote:
I would be just curious to what brothers relationship people want ?. Do we have one where Dean has full autonomy over everything which is what we have pretty much anyway or a true brothers relationship where Sam is allowed a voice .

Was Sam so far from the truth in that speech ? did he not have any bases for his position ? or was it he said anything to Dean at all ? . Does he say nothing and the status quo in the relationship continues in the same way , with nothing changing and Dean continues to do what he deems he has the right to do where Sam is concerned and Sam accepts it because it what Dean does.

But again this was a typical SPN episode where Sam was concerned so maybe it was not one for me.
I don't know what kind of relation "people" want,but I think the Sam we got this episode was perfect.I like this Sam who is not possessed,de-souled etc.He did not mince his words said what he wanted to say and well overall a win for me.This episode was good I hope they build on it.
I like this Sam, too. The problem with the brothers not talking to each other is due to Dean always cutting Sam off every time he wants to discuss something. Dean needs to rethink that if they are to be brothers again.
I'm sorry, but I have brothers and they do talk. Not in the same way women do, but they at least communicate with each other so that excuse doesn't float for me.
E
# E 2014-01-30 22:49
nappi, KG_SPN and Ikeke35, I couldn't agree with you all more!!! Well said all of you. If someone avows to you that they put you above all others in their life and then turn around and immediately lie, manipulate and betray you… what are you supposed to think? Probably that the avowal of their love for you is also a lie; that's what I'd think anyway. I totally see where Sam is coming from, totally. Yes, it's harsh, I feel terrible for Dean, he's oozing pain from every pore at the moment. But the fact remains that he will continue to manipulate Sam and make decisions for him that are in Dean's best interests until Sam forces him to stop. In this very episode Dean lied to Sam to try and get him to not work the case because Dean thought that it would be too dangerous or that Sam would be better off back at the bunker… he's still trying to make decisions for Sam. Luckily Sam knows Dean's ways and was able to get around him pretty easily as far as the case goes. The problem they are working on now, the ones based on trust? Not so easy to get around. Sam needs to stick to his guns, IMO or things will never change. The conversation at the end of this episode was a continuation of the "go ahead and go, I won't stop you. But don't go thinking that's the problem, cause it's not" comment Sam made at the end of Road Trip. I think Sam was alluding to trust and equality issues at that time too and has now pretty much stated that their 'brotherhood' needs to change or they can't continue as brothers.

And I disagree with the idea that Kevin would probably still be dead even if Gadreel had never possessed Sam. How could Gadreel have managed to kill Kevin without the knowledge of the whereabouts of the bunker that Gadreel gleaned through possessing Sam? He wouldn't have even known what Kevin looked like or where to find him without the knowledge that he gained through Sam and by Dean leading him directly into the bunker. He wouldn't have been able to get to the tablets or have any information about what the tablets said without being able to use Sam as a spy. Perhaps Kevin could have been lured out of the bunker somehow and then killed anyway? Maybe…unlikely, but possible. But then it wouldn't have happened in the Winchester's own back yard, and carried out with critical information gained through the possession, and the deed done by Sam's own hand. The tablets as well would still be safe in the bunker, and its secrets could still have been figured out; Crowley could read portions of them after all. And had Kevin been lured away from the Bunker and killed elsewhere, the Winchesters would have felt bad about it, most assuredly, but they might not have felt so responsible; an emotion that is fueling both brothers at the moment. And because it's Sam's hand that did the deed, he knows the act could have been prevented had he completed the final trial and closed the gates of hell because he wouldn't have been around for Gadreel to possess him in the first place. No Sam, no possession, no dead Kevin.
E
# E 2014-01-30 22:49
nappi, KG_SPN and Ikeke35, I couldn't agree with you all more!!! Well said all of you. If someone avows to you that they put you above all others in their life and then turn around and immediately lie, manipulate and betray you… what are you supposed to think? Probably that the avowal of their love for you is also a lie; that's what I'd think anyway. I totally see where Sam is coming from, totally. Yes, it's harsh, I feel terrible for Dean, he's oozing pain from every pore at the moment. But the fact remains that he will continue to manipulate Sam and make decisions for him that are in Dean's best interests until Sam forces him to stop. In this very episode Dean lied to Sam to try and get him to not work the case because Dean thought that it would be too dangerous or that Sam would be better off back at the bunker… he's still trying to make decisions for Sam. Luckily Sam knows Dean's ways and was able to get around him pretty easily as far as the case goes. The problem they are working on now, the ones based on trust? Not so easy to get around. Sam needs to stick to his guns, IMO or things will never change. The conversation at the end of this episode was a continuation of the "go ahead and go, I won't stop you. But don't go thinking that's the problem, cause it's not" comment Sam made at the end of Road Trip. I think Sam was alluding to trust and equality issues at that time too and has now pretty much stated that their 'brotherhood' needs to change or they can't continue as brothers.

And I disagree with the idea that Kevin would probably still be dead even if Gadreel had never possessed Sam. How could Gadreel have managed to kill Kevin without the knowledge of the whereabouts of the bunker that Gadreel gleaned through possessing Sam? He wouldn't have even known what Kevin looked like or where to find him without the knowledge that he gained through Sam and by Dean leading him directly into the bunker. He wouldn't have been able to get to the tablets or have any information about what the tablets said without being able to use Sam as a spy. Perhaps Kevin could have been lured out of the bunker somehow and then killed anyway? Maybe…unlikely, but possible. But then it wouldn't have happened in the Winchester's own back yard, and carried out with critical information gained through the possession, and the deed done by Sam's own hand. The tablets as well would still be safe in the bunker, and its secrets could still have been figured out; Crowley could read portions of them after all. And had Kevin been lured away from the Bunker and killed elsewhere, the Winchesters would have felt bad about it, most assuredly, but they might not have felt so responsible; an emotion that is fueling both brothers at the moment. And because it's Sam's hand that did the deed, he knows the act could have been prevented had he completed the final trial and closed the gates of hell because he wouldn't have been around for Gadreel to possess him in the first place. No Sam, no possession, no dead Kevin.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-31 22:53
I agree E.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-31 22:53
I agree E.