It was hard to choose a banner picture for this episode. Was the episode about the appearance of Gavin, and all the far reaching implications of Crowley having a son? There was certainly a lot of time spent on the development of this new character. Alternately, was the episode about killing Abaddon? This was a highly touted climax to the season-long war for Hell's domain about which Sam and Dean were supposedly very worried.  Maybe the episode was about the angel war. After all, we were shown Castiel's new headquarters, and witnessed angel defections both for (Gadreel) and against Castiel and the "good guys". So what were we, the viewers, supposed to take away from this show?

Nightsky


Despite of, or maybe because of, the overcrowded story that was packed into "King of the Damned", I have my suspicions that it may just end up being a pivotal episode in the overall, long term storyline that is the basis of the entire Supernatural series. Like a land slide of rocks that suddenly redirects the course of a mighty river into splintered, unexpected directions, this episode dramatically and abruptly changed the landscape of the Supernatural universe.

First, it shockingly gave Crowley a family. Given that a central theme of the entire show is the importance of family, I cannot believe this is an inconsequential development. Will having a tie to humanity affect Crowley’s future actions?  Further, with Crowley’s humanity strengthened by his addiction to human blood, he actually cares about this family member, as evidenced by him taking steps to save Gavin from torture and certain death on a doomed voyage, then repeatedly giving him fatherly advice.
Crowley Gavin
The scene of father and son sitting by a fire reading the newspaper at first seemed completely out of the moment to me, and in fact was entirely contrary to what was supposed to be happening in the rest of the episode. Yet, maybe its purpose was to foreshadow a longer, more normal relationship which was not part of this family’s past.

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The second thing in this episode that could have a permanent, long lasting effect on the series was that the laws of time were broken. In Sam’s own words, “The lore all says the same thing—you change any one thing in the past, the ripple effect impacts everything that follows. You don’t bend that rule, okay? You don’t.  We’ll take him back to the bunker, figure out the spell. That’s the way it’s got to be.” Crowley’s emotional decision to keep Gavin alive, in the present time, opens up a Pandora’s Box of possibilities for every single Supernatural myth arc. The writers could go back and change any past event simply by linking it somehow to Gavin. I shudder to consider that the Winchester’s whole lives might be erased by some “ripple effect” in time. Could we be headed toward them not needing to be hunters at all? Maybe their lives stay white picket fence and apple pie because 1) Gavin’s death doesn’t pain his dad back in Scotland, so 2)Crowley never sells his soul (do you really accept that Crowley sold his soul for “a few more inches of willy?” I don’t. I’m sure we have not heard the real reason he sold his soul. He is honorable and sentimental after all), and then he 3)never becomes a demon which 4)changes the history of Hell somehow….etc.

Other significant season 9 plot developments that were crammed into this episode?

·         A Knight of Hell, Crowley’s rival for control of Hell, was killed.

·         Castiel learned that he had a traitor in his ranks and Team Free Will learns that Metatron has an “elite secret squad”. These spies will later be revealed to be the kamikaze angels.

·         Through conversations with Sam, Castiel decides to approach Gadreel about being a double agent or defecting. This is the beginning of the new stream that leads to Gadreel’s redemption, him saving Cas’ life and angels being able to return to Heaven.

No
·         Dean reveals his thoughts about being the bearer of the Blade and takes a stand to keep it with him rather than stash it until it is needed. Dean’s simple “No” to Sam’s request to bury the Blade is an unmistakable indicator to Sam of Dean’s chosen and now inescapable path.

There is no doubt that this episode was a critical game-changer in several current and future myth arcs for the show. Whether or not it skillfully delivered these changes is a matter for debate (as you will read from our other reviewers!). Still, the fact remains that the entire storyline was and could still yet be completely altered. The motto of this episode: The ground we are all standing on is treacherous and we need to beware of falling rocks.  

Nate Winchester

(live tweets from the show)

·         "it's open warfare [on angels]" -Too bad we've only been shown it in like... 1 episode.

·         I wonder... Devil Trap a bullet, shoot Abaddon, dismember her and drop the body in vat of holy water.

·         And Crowley's son gives us a clue how we should be watching this episode (lots of drinking)

9.21 sigil 0065
·         DO NOT USE TIME TRAVEL! You are never that prepared, Carver years.

·         IT'S HARPER! Love him, wish that actor got more work. [i.e. Ezra]

·         It's the same alley where they trapped Gadreel and Castiel had his mind trip... angels should really stop walking down there.

·         And the talking extra kind of looks like he's dressed like Malcolm Reynolds... my fanfic bone is getting all kinds of love.

·         I admit, I like the "dramatic approach" [echoing footsteps] of Castiel. 

·         "I needed to do something." ...What? WHAT? are you going to do? What happens if you don't?

·         All the demons are dressed in fine suits, all the angels dressed in regular clothes. Metaphor?

·         Where are Abaddon & Crowley in Metatron's story? Why angel v angel and not old fashioned angel v demon?

·         "How did you" "I know..." "No I mean, why didn't you kill me in the past & stop my rise?"

·          I mean Bobby brought Gavin's ghost back once, why can't Abaddon just grab his spirit and torture it?

·         Abaddon time travels: drops off note to herself: "Be the demon Crowley makes a deal with, hold his contract."

·         I need to make a gif of Gavin... this scene of him really does express the audience after S9.

SPN 0466
·         My only problem with this interrogation scene is you can't tell what was planned or what's clues to Dean & Sam's minds.

·         Hmm... when did Dean switch out his father's leather jacket for the new Carhartt one?

·         It is funny how Dean keeps donning jackets that my father has in his closet.

·         "I'm the King of hell." With Gavin's accent they should have launched into Monty Python in that scene.

·         The editing is kind of all over this episode too. The viewer kind of feels like a pinball bouncing between two shows.

·         Did they ever solve or establish who killed Harper?

·         "He didn't possess me." ...No I'm pretty sure that was possession. Man the writers are trying to retcon their own season.

·         Since when did Crowley gain Metatron "download knowledge" ability?

·         I like Mark Sheppard & all but I kind of wish they killed him & let Gavin have a S10 arc of learning to be a prince.

promo003
·         I'm going to watch this Castiel/Gad scene a 2nd time just to see if anything's actually said in it. 

·         Yeah, twice through, Cas & Gad manage to say practically nothing.

·         Seriously. "It will be worse under Metatron". What will, Cas? How do you know?

promo002
·         For being all "no more killing", Cas didn't try that hard to not kill in that fight. 

·         "Hey a gun! Well I'll just throw this away. Not like I'll need it against humans or anything."

·         So Metatron has a spy in Cas' "camp". But he made Cas be a leader previously & was typing it up and all...

·         I can't believe that after all this season, Sam actually TRUSTED Dean just now.

MoC 1262
·         Hey, the MoC is actually starting to DO something.

·         Jedi'ing the Blade is something I've been waiting for the MoC to do FOR AWHILE NOW.

DeanKillingBlow
·         Remember when Abaddon was all loving the future & using tech? Where's her knife-proof vest now? the gun she just used?

·         "We're not killing you Crowley." WHY? WHY AREN'T YOU KILLING HIM? I THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO KILL HIM!! I THOUGHT CROWLEY WAS DEAD AFTER ABADDON? WHY AREN'T YOU STABBING HIM???

·         "No one breaks the rules like you two-" THEY DON'T BREAK THE RULES OF TIME TRAVEL!

·         I'd laugh so hard if next episode it turns out Crowley isn't the king because of time paradox.

WorriedSam4
·         Is Sam mad at Dean about ditching him or mad at himself for actually believing his brother?

·         Dean: "She could have bargained her way out." Like Crowley just did... wait, what???

·         Huh... where was "Bloodlines"?  That doesn't get to show up in the replays? XD

Just… what is there left to say?  You don’t, do NOT bring time travel into a story unless you have a very clear plan for the implication and rules.  Otherwise…
Rewatch 9.21 Cartoon

Why pick up Gavin?  Why not wipe out Crowley now?  Why not leave note for your past self to stop Crowley’s rise?  Why not wipe out the Winchester line now?  Why not just wipe out the line of the woman Cain falls in love with so he never turns on you guys and kills all the knights?  Then you have allies and Dean has no MoC to bother you with.

Then we have Sam believes Dean for… reasons.

Castiel says he has to fight Metatron and that Metatron has bad plans because… reasons.  We don’t even get a logical moment of Castiel saying something like, “I’ve played God. It doesn’t matter how good your intentions start…”  What has Metatron done?  Kicked the angels out of heaven?  He didn’t go on a killing spree like Godstiel did.  He’s not running around on earth meting out vengeance.  Ok, so they say he screwed up the veil – except when he didn’t (Charlie).  Sure he killed Kevin but it’s not like he can’t bring the kid back once his plans were finished.

Look, I don’t mind Metatron being a villain, but SHOW him being a villain!  But that’s the scene this season: We’re going to tell you one thing, then show something else on screen.  Like Castiel saying he wants to not kill other angels, then have him stab a bunch on screen instead of restraining them somehow or vampiring out their grace and mortalizing them.  Or you have Cas complaining about a spy, when in a previous episode we saw Metatron typing up Castiel’s actions on the typewriter. (is he recording actions? Influencing actions? They never tell us)  How do they know Metatron didn’t just pop in, gank the dude, and then leave?  WHY ARE YOU LETTING CROWLEY LIVE?  YOU SAID AFTER METATRON HE’S NEXT!  HE’S RIGHT THERE!  HELPLESS!  STAB THE F**** ALREADY!  WHY AREN’T YOU GUYS STABBING HIM???

Nothing, NOTHING makes a lick of sense in this episode.  The more you try to think about ANY part of it, the stupider it gets.  Nobody acts in character, they only do what the plot requires.  The ONLY thing that salvages it would be that Metatron’s typewriter is controlling everyone’s actions.  In which case, ok, now I’m down with him dying since he’s such a suck-ass writer.  What does it say when the best explanation for the episode is that we’re not watching Sam & Dean, we’re just watching puppets?

And when the audience thinking is the worst thing for a writer, that’s a sign of a hack right there.

Gerry Weaver

My takeaway: I think Eugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner improved their batting average this season in terms of quality. Unfortunately, this episode is pretty close to a strike out. “King of the Damned” highlights most of the issues of the season without providing many highlights. Even the much anticipated Dean/Abbadon fight to the death is a bust, and with those two actors, that took some doing.

AngryAbaddon
Abbadon as a whole was badly handled this season. She started out all badass and sexy, purring innuendo-laden threats into Dean’s ear like a boss—and then pretty much disappeared as any kind of real threat. The best scene she has with Crowley is the one discussing Gavin’s brainpower shortcomings (“You must be angels!”). But her final fight with Dean relies more on cheesy special effects than raw chemistry between the actors. And the actors have chemistry. This scene should have had the power of Dean and Alastair, or failing that, even Dean and Zachariah. Instead, the scene is a windtunnel-driven posy bit of ridiculousness and a terrible send off for the Queen.

DeanDropsBlade
Jensen came through in the aftermath of this weak fight, as Dean loses control and beats Abbadon’s dead body, showing the impact of the Mark of Cain. I liked that only Sam can penetrate his haze of rage.

There is some good stuff to be found. I appreciated the ambiguity on why Dean hides Crowley’s warning from Sam. Dean tells Sam he knew the Mark of Cain would give him the power to beat Abbadon, so he didn’t need his brother’s back up. He then reveals he still feels the need to protect his brother when he tells Sam the only thing that could have stopped him is Abbadon capturing Sam and using him as leverage. And that makes sense, as only Sam’s voice gets through to Dean when the Mark of Cain takes over.

SPN 1543
But Dean is not reaching out to Sam with this explanation. He’s coldly analytical, explaining he was finding a way to remove his feelings for Sam as a potential obstacle to his success. I was especially struck by this undercurrent because of the way the writers  in general this season seem to be  characterizing Dean’s feelings for Sam as selfish and the cause of terrible events. The Dean who will save his brother’s life at the expense of the big goal is taking heavy criticism in the writers’ room.

Yet this Dean who does the opposite is not sympathetic. He’s chilling, in the way Soulless Sam was chilling when he allowed Dean to get turned into a vampire to help the mission. Being able to divorce himself from his ties that bind is not turning Dean into a more authentic hero. It’s turning him into a monster.

That was the message we saw in “The End” as well. Breaking that family bond takes away a source of strength for Sam and Dean, because even though they can be manipulated through it or just make some poor decisions based on emotion, the bond still grounds them. Here, Dean feels the strength he’s getting from the Mark of Cain and feels a sense of clarity of purpose. But he’s blind to the way he’s losing himself.

I hope we see more exploration next season on that tension between the personal and the mission. Eric Kripke played with that dichotomy a lot in the first five seasons, and he ended up showing that family ties, in all the various ways we make them, are the foundation for the big picture values.  Dean’s love for Sam and refusal to leave him helped stop the Apocalypse, not the colt. This season, Dean’s love for Sam led to decisions that hurt his brother and damaged the bond. But the Dean who does not feel that love and is coldly analytical about his strategy is much scarier—to us and I think to Sam.

Other thoughts I had about the episode:

·         If your name is not Ben Edlund, do not write meta. It takes a light and skillful touch to get it right. These writers do not get it right.

SPN 1473
·         Why do Sam and Dean not kill Crowley? I can fanwank that it’s because Dean feels a kinship with the demon he’s not prepared to tell Sam, so he finds a convincing explanation to keep Crowley alive. But if so, why didn’t we see this conversation?

·         The set up for Gavin to cause a time paradox next season is pretty clear. I guess it’s a nice option to have in the writers’ back pockets, but I’d prefer not mucking about in the story’s past and causing dissonance.

******
What do you think was the most important thing that happened in this episode? Did you like it more or less this time around? What did you make of this week's use of time-travel? Gavin' appearance? Dean's brutality? Crowley's compassion? Gadreel's second-thoughts? Castiel's leadership and army? Abaddon's death? Or maybe you want to talk about the extra dressed like Malcolm Reynolds (BTW, he was the angel in red who taunted Ezra!) Dealer's Choice!

Comments  

cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-10 17:09
I didn't care for this episode the first time around and found it a little better the second time. I have my S9 DVD's now so it will be interesting to watch the whole season without breaks and see if that improves the story telling and pacing. The big fight between Dean and Abaddon was about as cheesy as I have seen on this show. I agree these two had such amazing chemistry, such a wasted opportunity. Very disappointing if Abaddon is truly dead (it really did look that way though). Again Gadreel's story was the most interesting part of the whole episode besides the brother conversation at the end. His story arc is the most clearly mapped out of any character. His attitude while talking to Castiel was how "he" was going to end up being the hero but not if he betrayed Metatron. It was all about honor with Gadreel. The wheels started to turn when it dawned on him what it really meant to be the hero. Something he found out in the end.
I do think Gavin is going to have to be a factor at some point. Time travel is a favorite topic with the show so I am sure Gavin will have to be resolved at some point. And Abaddon did kill the other guy in the past, he was going to die soon anyway but does that count? Maybe going back and killing Gavin sets the course of future events back on track and the Winchesters story ends up being very different.
All in all one of the more disappointing episodes of the season.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-09-10 17:39
This episode was so very disappointing and maddening, from it's complete disrespect and disregard for canon and consistency, to the cheesy and anticlimatic showdown between Abaddon and Dean. I'm starting to think Carver is doing this intentionally as a big "FU" to the fans that care about this stuff.

So Abaddon learned the same time travel spell that Henry used. All she needed was "My blood, an angel feather, tears of a dragon, a pinch of the sands of time..." and the power of her soul. Blood (of a MacLeod) leading to blood? A soul? I think Abaddon comes up a little short on both counts. This isn't even a silly slip up like the Grand Canyon thing - that's excusable given the time lapsed between S2 and S8. As Time Goes By happened in S8!

If Gavin MacLeod lives, no signet ring for Rufus to find and no Gavin ghost for Bobby to summon in S6 Weekend at Bobby's. Just a hunch but some people are going to show up in S10 as a result of the change in the time line, maybe even some old familiar faces?

The entire angel war continued to be a big bore; most of the action took place off the screen - by the way, the angel anarchist Malachi, the one Bartholomew was so worried about, was killed off screen by Gadreel.

Then, there was the conversation between Sam and Castiel, laying the groundwork for Gadreel's redemption arc, as well as dismissing the seriousness of Sam's possession. And, for the record Sam, yes, you were possessed. If you want to talk about "shared housing", post an ad on AirBNB.

And then there was THE showdown between Abaddon and Dean. That was just awful - I actually laughed out loud during the rewatch last night. Very cheesy with the wind effects, the over-reliance on VFx, and Abaddon hanging mid-air. Abaddon deserved a more regal death. I get that she wasn't the real "big bad" this season (just as Eve wasn't in S7) but they took no advantage of the great chemistry that Abaddon and Dean showed earlier in the season; such a wasted opportunity.

Why the hell didn't they kill Crowley when they had the chance? Absolultely no explanation given.

And then there's Dean not telling Sam about Crowley and "Poughkeepsie", then the conversation in the Impala. I had flashbacks to S4 when Sam pulled the same crap - I'm the only one that can kill Lilith, blah blah blah... Dean showing the same arrogance and hubris that Sam did in S4. I do think Sam has learned the lesson that they're better off working together - when is Dean going to remember that?

Some of the scenes with Gavin, Crowley, and Abaddon were funny, and Crowley's torture line was one of the highlights of the season.

On a happy note, got my S9 Blu-Ray DVD's today so time to rewatch the gag reel and mockumentary; that will cheer me up after this dreadful episode.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2014-09-11 07:11
Minor correction, but Weekend at Bobby's and Eve were both S6. ;)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-09-11 07:42
sorry... typo on my part.
spnlit
# spnlit 2014-09-11 14:46
I agree with ALL your comments njspnfan. Enjoyed the addition of Gavin to the story and his intro to the 21 st century was funny. Not sure how they are going to clean up the mess of his being alive and effect on past storylines (Bobby). Abaddon's killing scene was cringe worthy because of the script and made the characters look ridiculous. The rest of my thoughts on this episode are tied to the whole season. For me Season 9 was THE worst. It was the writing. Even if all the Season 9 eps remained the same we could have had more depth, insight, and action in sync with who Sam and Dean had become. It was like everything happened because it needed to for the end result and remained ambiguous, boring or worse ridiculous. We did not get why or how and it all lacked heart and soul. No reflection on the acting. For instance, in this episode, the writers need Sam to be out of the way so Dean can kill Abaddon alone. They could not think of anything better than Crowley saw demons in the basement- go there Sam. Sam would not be that stupid to go. His brother has the MOC and is going to kill the last knight somewhere in large hotel and Sam says oh okay I will go to the basement. This is part of the whole unbelievable Sam is stupid in season 9..... Another example is Sam's limited concern and little action towards Dean obtaining the MOC! Then Sam is needed to be on board with Gadreel helping to bring down Metatron so the writers give us Sam's line of "shared housing" in this ep and later "hey Dean Gadreel is our friend." Really? Okay but how did Sam get there? Where is the bridge from Sam's season long (understandable ) feelings of anger and betrayal and nightmares of Kevin' death. The writers want Crowley alive so he can have his own storyline in season 10..... so in this episode our brother heroes who have the weapon to kill Crowley and Crowley completely disabled do not kill him despite every evil thing he has ever done. WHY? No reason. That was way too much to swallow. If they wanted Crowley alive then he should have escaped and taken off with Gavin. This goes along with my whole problem with Dean hanging with and trusting Crowley all season. After all Crowley did, and after all Dean went through and fought against and said about trusting demons....after everything he and Sam have learned.... we end up with Crowley- Dean relationship, MOC, killing Abaddon, and then demon dean. It lacks credibility. Looking forward to all around heart and soul redemption for Sam and Dean in Season 10. I have DVD 1-8. Do not want season 9. Hey njspnfan is season 9 worth buying for the extras?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-09-11 20:04
Yes, I think the S9 DVDs are worth it just for the extras; watched the gag reel, some excellent background material on the building of the Men of Letters bunker, and the mockumentary is really funny. There's a lot of other stuff too, outtakes, audio commentaries - hope to watch them this weekend.
Vince
# Vince 2014-09-10 18:17
"1) Gavin’s death doesn’t pain his dad back in Scotland, so 2)Crowley never sells his soul (do you really accept that Crowley sold his soul for “a few more inches of willy?” I don’t. I’m sure we have not heard the real reason he sold his soul. He is honorable and sentimental after all), and then he 3)never becomes a demon which 4)changes the history of Hell somehow….etc. "

This doesn't track, since Gavin says in the episode, "He looked nothing like you, and I buried him." There are two ways I can see Gavin's presence affecting things, well one it doesn't. Gavin was always meant to travel forward in time, it's where he learns what Crowley made his deal for, and then for some reason is sent back and dies like usual. And if that's not the case, you can maybe tie Gavin being in the future to why Bobby ends up in Hell, no ghost Gavin, no leverage for Bobby.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-10 21:52
here I go with the complete opposite opinion of most everyone else. I liked it. :D I admit it, i'm pretty easy to please and I really don't pay too much never mind to every detail. if it's blatant yes, of course I notice...but for the most part I guess I don't really examine every detail of an eppy...

I loved sam in this eppy for starters. smart sam is one of my favorite sam's .....oh so sexy:D;) I actually don't mind when the writers go meta in regards to the fandom...and to be honest, I didn't think the boys said anything that wasn't true. I took no offense....I actually laughed.... then again...easy to please;) I didn't really think the writers were taking potshots regarding how fans feel about jared and Jensen or anyone they hold dear to their heart....I took it more as the writers pointing out that what the fans think they know and often complain about....well they don't know all they think...and no matter how much criticism is thrown at the writers or anyone else, the writers still tell their story the way they want to...many opinions are out there and for the most part, the writers don't know who it is that's complaining... hey, no matter what the true meaning....I wasn't offended and i kind of think that they do have a point. ;)

in regards to sam's speech to cas....I had no problem with it whatsoever. time had passed and sam was in a different head space then he was a few months ago. cas was pretty specific with the type of questions he was asking sam. while sam had lost control in the end, for most of the time, sam was sam. he was in control. it wasn't total possession the whole time...so for the most part, it was two entities sharing the same space. in no way did sam condone it...but he was able to put it in perspective.
sam never felt threatened by gad. if he had then i think sam might have noticed that he was, in fact, possessed. he saw him as being more misunderstood than threatening. after all i guess sam could feel gad as much as gad could feel sam. hen again, in the next breath he stated that he was wrong because he killed kevin....but based on the look on cas' face, cas didn't believe sam to be wrong. cas believes that gad isn't a threat and that he's in fact being manipulated.... the read he got from sam enabled cas to reach out to gad.

this is also the episode in which we see sam beginning to understand that the blade is doing something to dean, changing him. sam isn't even thinking about the moc which i find totally understandable. dean's behavior prior to touching the blade is nothing new to sam. there was no reason for sam to be suspicious because dean wasn't doing anything different or unusual. it wasn't until sam witnessed dean touching the blade that he became concerned. sam connects dean's behavior to the blade, not the moc. for sam, because he's totally in the dark in regards to how dean is feeling, it's the blade that is his focus. it's the blade that is dean's enemy. i feel as though this is the eppy that sam forgot about his own pain and hurt and started focusing on dean.....I loved it. :) I think the moc is a story for s10 and perhaps beyond. ;)

as for abaddon's death....I didn't find it anticlimactic. I don't think her death was what we were supposed to be focusing on...I think we were supposed to be focusing on dean....so I can understand why abbadon's death was downplayed. it wasn't about her destruction.... it was about dean's....his decent into darkness....dea n Winchester, the "king of the damned"....Crow ley might wear the title...but I think we are meant to see that it's dean who is really the king of the damned....being damned himself. :( i'm not sure what was supposed to happen in regards to abbadon's death. I think she died in a way that suited her....her arrogance and the basic mistake that all spn villains make was her undoing.....und erestimating the Winchesters.... .she thought she was more powerful than dean and she found out the hard way that she wasn't.....

now the first time I saw this I knew Crowley was an ingenius bastard.....but on rewatch....wow! what a set up...abbadon never had a chance...:D

Crowley: let's not forget, knowing what we know now post dybim, he knew what was happening to dean. he knew what dean would become, whether dean died or not. Crowley tested dean in mlh...he knew that dean wouldn't betray him. so all the while abbadon thought she had Crowley by the short and curlies.....he was playing her. he let her believe she was in control, but it was all an illusion.
first off, abbadon thinking that Crowley had humanity and actually cared about his son. I don't think so. I think that Crowley wanted abaddon to believe that he cared about gavin, that she had him where she wanted him, but I think Crowley had her where he wanted her. he uses his addiction towards his advantage...see mingly weak, but I don't think that's the case at all. I think he played at caring about gavin to give abbadon false confidence...I also believe that Crowley kept gavin alive for nefarious reasons that we will eventually learn about.

Crowley never had anything to worry about. first off I think he knew that dean would defeat abbadon, because Crowley knows what's happening to dean. he knows the power of the blade. even if dean had failed at killing abaddon, Crowley wins.....if dean kills abbadon...all is good and he's king of hell with a future demon buddy who he thinks he's besties with. if dean failed and died trying to kill abaddon, dean would've turned into a demon....a demon with the blade and still would've killed abbadon....Crow ley gets his demon buddy all the sooner.....it was a win win for Crowley the entire time and he knew it....he just sat back and enjoyed the show....which he would've done bullet in him or not.....he's a genius.....an evil genius.

i walked away from this episode with a grin. i enjoyed the ep and everyone in it. i wasn't even bothered by dean's speech to sam in the car....the way i saw it, dean pretty much wanted to handle this alone. he didn't want sam to screw up the mission. dean needed to do what he needed to do and sam was an obstacle....tha t sounded quite cold i know...and it was....but and this is important....an d this is the part of dean that i think sam will be able to reach....to save him...underneat h all that i'm gonna do what i gotta do crap, the reason he didn't want sam there was because he could be used by abbadon....so as much as the darkness was taking over....sam still mattered enough to dean to be an obstacle. it's because he loves sam....i don't even think that dean being a demon could eradicate that love, it'll try to suffocate it, but it won't eradicate it. i think he's going to be able to be saved because of it. i think that's the unbreakable bond carver spoke of....i look forward to seeing it thrive in the coming season.
Vince
# Vince 2014-09-10 22:35
Abaddon's death is probably the most climatic one a villain has had on the show. Azazel just stands around waiting for Dean to shoot him, Ruby gets stabbed in the gut, Lilith wanted to die, Dick Roman stood there as he got alone through the neck, Alastair was pinned to wall while Sam used his psychic powers, Sam does a nose dive into the cage. So really Abaddon is the only big bad that has actually put up a fight, some people may not have felt it was epic enough, but in comparison to the other deaths, Abaddon actually did fight back.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2014-09-11 07:10
By what measure?

Azazel had both brothers pinned (like Abaddon did to dean), took away the Colt (hmm.. maybe she should have done that) until he got jumped by John Winchester's ghost giving Dean enough time to get the gun back and fire.

Lucifer exploded Castiel, broke Bobby's neck and was wailing on Dean's face up until Sam took control and then jumped in.

Dick Roman involved a multi-pronged attack into a location as well as a back and forth deception game.

Abaddon: Walk in, grunt a lot, she stops trying, stab her.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-11 16:04
Let's see. King of the Damned Final fight. Abaddon goes to the past, captures Crowley's son. Prison's both. Crowley calls boys to get the blade, they are attacked by the hell hound. Crowley warns Dean which Abaddon doesn't notice. She thinks she can win but she falls. Actually the main fight against Abaddon lasted LONGER than the one and one confrontation of any of the big bads you mentioned. The whole episode build up from the start to the finish as the last battle.

Dean shoots Azazel with the Colt. Probably shorter scene than the Abaddon kill. This doesn't mean it wasn't cool.
They confronted Dick like once that close and it was over in five seconds, BOOM dead. Stick to the neck is not climatic. (I hated Leviathan's anyway)
Sam takes over Lucifer. Probably as long as the Abaddon fight. Can't remember the minutes. I agree though that Sam taking over Lucifer and Chuck telling the story of the Impala was awesome.

My point is. Abaddon fight was different. I saw she underestimated Dean and that cost her her life. I liked it as it was but I would say it might have had little bit too much wind. :D

- Lilah

PS: I liked the episode. Forgot to mention that.
Vince
# Vince 2014-09-11 18:47
Yeah, but in the end they weren't really "fights" Like I said, with the exception of Lilith, everyone else stood around and waited to die. I mean Azazel had enough time to zap away before being shot, he did it before in season 1, and Dick Roman stands around and lets himself get stabbed not once, but twice. Abaddon may have been using telekinesis, but she still put up more of a fight than anyone else. Lucifer wasn't a fight, he killed some people and wailed on Dean for a bit. There was a fight in Sam's body for control, but that was visualized by a montage.
E
# E 2014-09-11 19:47
How did Abbadon NOT stand around waiting to die?… She stood there FOREVER, like a sitting duck with a big sign on her forehead head saying "Kill Me, I won't stop you." The Abbadon fight was totally lame, probably the lamest one in the series. The special effects with her hanging in the air for eternity while Dean stabbed her over and over again in super slo-mo with and all that wind and pyrotechnics? The smell of cheese was strong on that one. At least the other fights mentioned were actual physical altercations that were somewhat grounded in reality with punches thrown; here it was…. "I'll overpower you with my mind!" "No you won't!" ridiculousness. Even the Metatron fight was better. Basically, it looked like a fight scene from some lesser show like Charmed where all the action was in the camera work, lighting, and special effects because no one on screen could actually pull off a fight scene believably. We all know that Jensen can fight, but it sure didn't look like it in that scene. I think it was supposed to be "epic" but to me it just looked preposterous, and wasn't even close to the gritty and more realistic confrontations we are used to seeing on this show.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-11 20:59
Well in all fairness she didn't exactly stand around. Wasn't she sitting most of the time waiting for Dean to show up with the only thing in the universe that could kill her. Her evil plan was to wait until he showed up with the weapon and then hope to defeat him? Why not a sneak attack? She was a Knight, she had plans, she was collecting souls, building an army, you know strategizing like a Queen who has survived for centuries. This was the best plan she could come up with? Sit and wait and then when it looked like she was going to be defeated after all stand there and let Dean kill her. That was why I thought she couldn't really be dead. But sadly I think she is and it was a silly way for a great character to go.
Sam's fight in the church was far more intense, special affects were great and it was a far more believable. Although I guess she wasn't dead just her meat suit.
E
# E 2014-09-12 06:34
Heh! She did mostly sit didn't she. I guess that I just can't understand a wily, formidable big bad, who has shown that she's perfectly willing to bug out of any situation that even remotely looks dangerous to her (when the angels showed up in the second episode… she took one look and scrammed) just standing (or sitting :p) around waiting for someone to show up with the only weapon on earth that could kill her. Why did she invite that confrontation when she could have worked to get the blade away from Dean using one of her MANY minions? Why was she so passive here when she hasn't been passive ever? Why did they have her sitting around facilitating her own death? Too much confidence? Possibly.. but it didn't read like overconfidence to me, it read like, "we want this 'cool' scene with slo-mo and wind and we'll have Abbadon act completely contradictory to every other time we saw her, so we can have our cool scene." There was a LOT of this kind of thinking this season with Dean and the MoC and the center of it. The story concept was awesome in theory, but the execution? Humph, not so awesome. When you bend your characters, have them behave OOC and not explain themselves properly or do inexplicable things like sit around while the weapon of your death heads your way, all in furtherance of the plot, then you are going to run into problems, especially with a show whose characters are as well defined as these characters are. Dean was OOC, Sam was so OOC as to be incomprehensibl e and it was all done so that Dean would end up a demon. They could have achieved that end in any one of a thousand ways this season and still managed to have the boys be the boys, the villains be villainous, but they didn't. Gadreel was the only character to have a fully realized, logical and significant plot this season, and was the only character to behaving in a consistent and comprehensible way….. it's too bad they couldn't have achieved that for their leads.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-12 07:28
I've noticed a pattern by every villain.....san s one...that ended in their demise....ea. and every one of them were so arrogant and self assured and had no doubts that they had enough power to succeed with their plans....each and every one of them, including Lucifer himself, all underestimated the Winchesters. every single villain the Winchesters have faced met their demise because ea. one was pretty much a megalomaniac ....and this was their undoing. there are quite a few here who cannot understand why abbadon didn't "bug out"....I really think the answer is quite easy and not so hard to comprehend....p ride and arrogance....sh e wasn't afraid because she was convinced she would win. she wasn't about to let a Winchester succeed. like I said, pride and arrogance. it's how Lucifer ended up in the cage. it's how dick roman ended up vaporized. it's how yellow eyes ended up with a bullet in his heart.

as for Crowley still being alive, well he's the only one so far who hasn't underestimated the Winchesters. he's full of pride and arrogance, don't get me wrong and in the end it will most likely be his undoing...but Crowley has learned from all the others mistakes and has used that to his advantage....he 's managed to stay a step ahead of the Winchesters and it was only luck that he didn't end up human..or maybe it wasn't...all I know is Crowley is more than he seems and he seemed pretty sure that dean would succeed in killing abaddon...like I noted, this was a win/win for Crowley either way it went down. either way, dean would've ended up a demon all the sooner.

as for sam, I didn't really think he acted ooc. look dean did the unthinkable to sam, something dean has never done before, something sam never expected dean would ever do...so it stands to reason that sam's reaction would be "new" because this was new to him...as it was done to him by his own brother. i think sam's reaction to dean made perfect sense, given that he was so conflicted and hurt and angry and the one person he needed to talk to about all of it wanted to bury it under the rug and simply hope sam's anger and hurt goes away. dean's inability to face what he'd done, walk away and turn it around so he himself plays the victim...it's all been done before, so that really wasn't ooc.

as for the specific episode...well i really didn't see anyone acting ooc. at first i was like, wait a sec...sam is intelligent enough to figure out how to handle ezra, but he falls for dean's lie.....and then i thought about it....and i was like...yes...i could see it. i could see that happening....sa m trying to trust in dean again, wanting to ...that's not so hard to understand at all....giving dean the benefit of the doubt...isn't that the road to healing what's wrong between them...isn't that a step in the process of trying to regain a brotherly relationship... .i saw it as sam trying....and how sam's faith in his brother is stronger than even sam realizes. not to mention it was a believable lie. it's really not that hard to believe that sam would believe that abaddon would have demons backing her up. he seemed conflicted but even the possibility that demons were around....he had to check it out....and dean knew this about sam and used it against him. not the first time dean took his knowledge of his brother and used it against him by the way...just saying;)....it didn't take long for sam to realize that dean sent him on a wild goose chase....and he did arrive upstairs in time to help if dean needed it....my guess is that the significance of this scene was for sam to realize that dean didn't need help ....actually scratch that....it's the scene in which sam realizes his brother actually does need help...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-12 11:15
I agree with you about Gadreel. His was the most well plotted story of the season.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-12 13:24
Quote:
it was two entities sharing the same space.
That was Sam's body as in only Sam's .Gadreel was a tenant wait he was not even that he was illegal occupant.If we go by the part of your comment i have quoted then every possession is that i.e two entities sharing the same space and it should be okay right?The part I quoted was an absolute shitty thing the writers had Sam say.Quote:
but he was able to put it in perspective.
sam never felt threatened by gad.
When he was possessed he did not know about Gad.Now he knows.Sam was not threatened it was others who were.Sam was angry for what his (not which is shared it is only Sam's) body was used to do.Now Gad's out who is going to suffer consequences of that.It was Sam's body which killed not Gad's.
amyh
# amyh 2014-09-11 18:32
The abaddon adn Dean final 'battle' looked and felt more like a photo shoot from Americas next top model then an epic battle. I actually expected to hear Tyra Banks telling both actors to "smize".

and regarding Dean sending Sam to the basement,,,,nap pi said this: he didn't want sam there was because he could be used by abbadon. I will never understand this....if its true then Sand Dean should not be hunting together....AT ALL. Because just being together...work ing together Sam could easiy be used against Dean. Or vice versa. So then the obvious solution would be for the brothers to go their seperate ways...that way...Dean doesn't have to worry about Sam being used against him....cause you know, Sam isn't a smart badass hunter in his own right...he would freeze up like a little girl...not be proactive....an d have a recorded exiorseism on his phone or something else up his sleeve.
E
# E 2014-09-11 20:08
I agree amyh… the whole "I was trying to protect you, so I sent you to the basement" argument doesn't ring true to me, not for normal Dean and especially not for MoC Dean. He said he didn't want Sam to be used against him, but to me he was really saying that he was afraid Sam would just get in the way and mess up his kill. Dean was strong by this point, probably as strong as ever was going to be (soon after the Mark began to have a detrimental effect and was making him ill). He was filled with self-confidence and hubris; he said in a later episode "I am the only one who can do this." That's what I think Dean was thinking and feeling, that compared to him with the Mark that Sam was weak and would get in the way and be a liability. I got no sense that Dean was worried about Sam's safety at all, he seemed more annoyed than anything, wishing both Sam and Cas would just shut up and let him get on with it. And quite frankly, that attitude goes more accurately with the themes of addiction from this season and season 6 as well as the call backs to season 4. At that time, no one assumed that Sam was trying to "protect" Dean when he was addicted to demon blood and wanted to take on Lilith on his own, they basically saw it for what it was, a brother out of control and not listening to reason. So now that the shoe is on the other brother, I am not sure why Dean is seen as being "protective" when clearly the MoC is making him overconfident and guilty of the same self centeredness that affected Sam in season 4.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-11 20:53
the way I've always seen it....dean brought sam back into the life. A very big part of that is because, for dean, in his head it was bringing them together as a family, like because sam went to college they weren't a family anymore....this of course isn't a healthy attitude because it's not true in the slightest. my point is that dean wants/needs sam with him. he knows the life is a dangerous one, but his need for sam trumps everything else....so all that dean can do is protect him....keep sam safe. he has often claimed that he wants sam to have normal, but yet dean got angry with sam because he stopped hunting and for awhile had normal. sam thought dean was dead....dean wasn't so in his head, he's alive so sam should be hunting...becau se hunting is what connects them...brings them together as a family...and if sam's not hunting....but dean is ok with sam having normal when he's dead...like really dead....it's really messed up...

my point is that even though as e has stated....dean was filled with self confidence and hubris and it was really about feeding his addiction, none of that takes away from the fact that dean loves his brother. dean's dying words is evidence of that. the same could be true of sam back then as well when he was addicted to demon blood....even when sam proclaimed he was the only one who could kill Lilith...I never doubted for a moment that sam stopped loving his brother.....his words to ruby about hoping dean would forgive him is evidence of that....

I guess what i'm trying to point out is that no matter what dean did or said to sam to try to get rid of him so dean can do what he needed to do...what the blade needed him to do.....there was never any doubt in my mind that dean lost love for his brother. after all it was sam's words that could still reach dean....e, I agree that dean saw sam as an obstacle....but I guess the way I see it....dean doesn't see sam as an obstacle because sam is an incapable hunter....dean saw sam as an obstacle, because she could use sam against dean....and I truly believe that if abbadon had a knife at sam's throat and was about to kill him if dean didn't stand down....I guess I believe in dean enough to trust that he would've stood down....

hey, that's just me.;) oh and e....just so you know....I actually did believe that sam was trying to protect dean...even when he was at his most overconfident.. ..especially when he told ruby that it was better this way....dean should stay as far away from me as possible....see ....always the love..... no different now then it was then. ;)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-12 17:25
let me be clear as to what i meant. the reason i feel sam referred to it as shared housing is because he remained in control. he said it. "i was still me." gadreel didn't do what the other angels had done to their vessels or what demons do, which is take over completely. sam recollects moments where he felt he lost time. he thought there was something wrong with him. but they were moments, not a prolonged amount of time. so for most of the duration that gad was inside sam, sam was in control of his own body. it wasn't until gad met up with metatron that he started to take control of sam. up until that point, he did not. so when sam remembers everything, he remembers all of it...the moments when gad took over and the reasons...after all, he knows what gad knows.

i don't condone the possession. i'm not making light of what was done to sam or the betrayal he rightfully feels. but when cas asked those specific questions regarding gad, to get a better read on him based on what sam is telling him, truth be told, gad did in fact start off by helping sam....he did start off by keeping his word...when sam regained his memories of the time gad spent inside him....what sam remembers is that gad wasn't a threatening presence ...he remembers having control of his own body for most of the time...he remembers the circumstances in which he didn't have control....and given all that he remembers, sam is able to put in perspective your normal possession vs. what gad had done at the beginning.

if you recall, after sam told cas about gad, he said in the next breath that he "obviously made a mistake" ..."he did kill kevin"....so for sam, what he initially thought and felt regarding gad..ended up for sam a misjudgment of gad's character.....b ut for cas, he doesn't believe that to be the case. cas is basing decision on sam's original feelings.

i think sam's feelings regarding the possession and gad are vital to his ability to forgive his brother....but not only that, sam's ability to see gad in less than threatening light enables sam to give gad his chance at making things right. this is in fact necessary in the fight against metatron and opening up heaven.

i don't think that possession of any kind is right. i don't condone it......but i can see where the writers were trying to make sam come from, to allow the story to play out as they wanted it to.... i don't think sam has been belittled...i don't think his feelings regarding that situation has been forgotten or dropped....i believe that as a part of the healing process, dean will come to understand how wrong he was in doing what he did and he will come to understand sam's pov. i don't think sam trying to see the silver lining in this dark cloud is a bad thing....i think it's a way to help him....not only help him forgive, but help him to start feeling less like the victim....and start taking control again.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-12 17:39
Even when Gadreel had gone over to the dark side with Metatron he still didn't harm Sam. He threatened to but he didn't. He had him tucked away safe and in a happy dream. Sam in this episode told what it felt like to him. He wasn't being manipulated into doing things he didn't want to do until Gadreel went with Metatron. As bad as the possession was it was Dean's lies that were the worst part for Sam. My tired argument is if Dean had been straight with Sam maybe Kevin would still be alive. Maybe Sam agrees to the possession because it was also healing an injured angel.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-12 20:30
I think I agree....which goes even further and ties into the whole trust thing. which is why sam poses the notion to dean...."you didn't save me for me, you saved me for you". i found the conversation in the purge to be sam reaching out to dean.....beggin g the question...what is the upside to me being alive? i really feel like he wanted dean to tell him he saved him for him...because he mattered. because then the speech in the church would ring true for sam.....but dean's response was: are you kidding me...you and me fighting the good fight.....while the answer in dean's head was telling sam how much sam means to him and how much he wants sam in his life....i believe the way sam saw it was dean wanting sam around so dean had someone to hunt with....this belief negates all that dean says in the church....becau se he didn't trust in sam.. if he had trusted in sam, then dean would've told him the truth long ago.....

at least that's how i perceive sam's reaction. ;)
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-09-12 23:54
I agree with you on why Sam asked what the up side of his being alive was. I also think Dean has often acted as if the only reason for Sam to be alive is for Dean. When he sold his soul in AHBL, he didn't talk about how Sam was only 23, and was smart, and had only had a few years of living the life he wanted and Dean wanted him to have all that. Dean talked about Sam being his job, about how John always told him to look after Sam. The whole speech was about Dean and about Dean still following John's orders, not about Sam at all. Then when Sam asks Dean what is the good of Sam being alive, all Dean can come up with is so Sam can hunt with Dean, something Sam has repeatedly said doesn't make him happy. Again, there was nothing about why SAM was of value outside of being Dean's sidekick. When Sam took on the Trials he told Dean that Dean should live, not because he made Sam's life better but because Dean is more than a grunt, because he is a genius and a good man. The focus is on Dean and his value outside of how he fits into Sam's life.

The other thing that doesn't get mentioned is that Sam is asking what the upside of being alive is. That is a pretty suicidal attitude. But Dean is too involved on feeling hurt that Sam won't just up and forgive him without even hearing an apology that Sam's pain gets completely ignored and dismissed, by Dean and by fans. We hear how awful Sam is in that speech, but no one notes that Dean could not care less that the brother he saw willing to go with Death, the brother he had to trick into staying alive doesn't think he has anything to live for.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-13 01:27
percy,

just so you know.....sam's pain has never for one second been ignored/dismiss ed by me....as you well know my from verbose posts, I am one of those who has quite often pointed out sam's feelings....and I never thought what sam said in that speech or any speech this season was awful. I don't mean to step on any toes here, but it's my humble opinion that sam telling dean that in the same circumstances, he wouldn't do the same(possession ) doesn't come close to being as cruel as when dean told sam that benny was more of a brother than he's ever been, which was soon followed by sending sam that vile text to just further convince sam what he already believed to be so....that dean truly meant what he said in sc and that he, in fact, did not need the coin to say it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-13 03:42
Quote:
often pointed out sam's feelings
Does not matter if the show does not make an effort.Quote:
he wouldn't do the same(possession) doesn't come close to being as cruel as when dean told sam that benny was more of a brother than he's ever been
looks like we do not agree on many things.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-13 08:45
I thought the show did make the effort...I just think that with dean, it was more right in your face, and with sam it was more subtle. I guess I've always seen the way they deal with sam a bit more subtle because he is a different personality.... but I always knew when sam was hurting and I always understood his actions. sometimes it what's not said that is louder than anything that is.

I did see sam's hurt and pain in every episode. I could see how lost and alone sam was as he stood alone on that bridge, watching his brother walk away from him. I heard sam's agonizing plea when he begged cas to extract the grace so that he could do just one thing right. I could see and feel how alone sam felt even when dean was standing right next to him. my heart broke when sam told dean they were broken and damaged. I understood how sam was feeling when he explained to dean that he wished he could sweep it all away but he couldn't this time. I was proud of him when he told dean that the " because we're family" isn't a cure all for all that's gone wrong between them. I understood sam was reaching out to dean, when he said if he wants to work....fine we'll work, but if he wants to be brothers...well then.....I think sam made it perfectly clear in the purge that he longed for dean to acknowledge how he was feeling and understand his pain. I totally understood sam when he was reaching out to him, pleading with him to give him a valid reason for the upside to him being alive.... I saw the pain on sam's face as though he was standing in a spotlight, when dean's response to him was that it was to fight the good fight together....I heard in sam's voice the agony when he told dean that he saved him for himself, because he didn't want to be alone....and I heard the defeat in sam's voice after dean didn't deny what sam said, but changed the subject, declaring that in the same situation sam would do the same thing....and sam telling him, in the same circumstances he wouldn't....(.a nd he was referring to possession, not saving him, as has been illustrated by show many times post this conversation). I saw that sam was in pain and agony in captives when he was with mrs tran and when he met up with kevin. I did see and feel sam's guilt streaming from his every pore. I saw the emotional toll it took on him when he ran off to his room before kevin even made it to the top of the stairs...and I saw the conflict on sam's face before he opened the door to his room. I heard sam when he told ed that secrets ruin relationships, trust me. every episode when sam was emotionally distant with dean, I knew it was because he was hurting. I recognize, given sam's past with jess and all the victims when he was soulless, that sam couldn't just bounce back from this experience. he just can't so easily get over the fact that his hands killed kevin. he felt responsible then and it stands to reason that he would feel responsible now. And it isn't only because I know sam, but because I saw it on show. If sam had been alright then we would've gone back to our usual sam and dean. Show demonstrated sam's hurt by the very fact that he was still emotionally separate from his brother. yet, show also illustrated sam's love for his brother. it showed sam's patience with his brother. show did in fact show sam's hope that dean would finally acknowledge sam's pain...this is illustrated not only by sam's actual saves...but by having sam stay. I've seen so many posts ask why the boys are even together and I always thought that question was so very obvious....it's because of love. sam never stopped loving dean and he made that quite clear by never giving up and walking away. it's this strength of character that I've always admired in sam Winchester. when sam did start to see what the blade was doing to his brother, well I thought show demonstrated sam's love quite clearly. then we got to the finale, and we actually got to hear, what I think quite a few fans already knew regarding how sam was feeling. i think show impressed upon us all by having sam show up at that trailer making sure that he was at his brother's side, no matter what happened between them, regardless of any and all misconceptions, one thing remains true and clear...there's nothing that dean could do that could stop sam from loving him and keeping him from his side...unless of course he get's sucker punched:D, but I hope you see what i'm getting at.

it's my opinion that dean's self pity has been so glaringly obvious, like a spotlight in one's eyes, that one might be blinded to show actually showing sam's feelings, because it wasn't as glaring...but that doesn't mean it wasn't evident. and in all honesty I don't think it was like a hidden picture in those highlight magazines....it was there the whole time. it was shown the whole time. it's my feeling that one just had to notice.

note: while I agree that "shared housing" wasn't the best way to have sam express how he felt regarding gad possessing him to cas at that moment....I do get where the writer was coming from. I do get that it was so cas could take his chances with gad.....but I still don't think that it makes any less of sam's feelings and I do not think that this is a conversation that won't be brought up again in s10....

so yes ....I guess we can say we disagree on many things....but that's what makes the conversations so interesting. ;)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-13 14:05
Quote:
subtle because he is a different personality
But the show runners are not.The show has two main characters.If they cannot do a better job they are at fault.Quote:
I did see sam's hurt and pain in every episode.
Did you see Sam waking up from nightmares.I sure did not.Quote:
I heard sam's agonizing plea when he begged cas to extract the grace so that he could do just one thing right.
the only thing he did wrong was trust Dean.Quote:
I do not think that this is a conversation that won't be brought up again in s10....
While I find your optimism refreshing and am secretly hoping you are right ...I dont share the trust you have with TPTB.Wanted an episode with dealt with Sam's feelings about the possession..no Dean's feeling,no anyone else's feelings. other characters have got it so why not Sam?I am tired of listening to the excuse about subtle and overt.Sam was ready to Deal with Gadreel but what do we have next Sam running an errand for Dean.
Sorry to say but I feel the writers have failed Sam.
There were two dialogues which I found horrible
One was Sam's "shared housing " comment and The fact that they had Sam say it.and if it was FOR Cas then it makes even horrible.While they refused to have Sam voice it FOR Sam they imediately have it ready for Cas.
The second one being Dean's "I am proud of us".It did not make any sense coming from Dean.If Sam had said it it would have made some sense but it was all wrong coming from Dean.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-13 20:57
i know i didn't see sam waking from nightmares, and i'm not just saying this......but i did in fact assume he was having them. given that sam had nightmares for months after jess died, and he didn't even kill her...but he did feel guilty and responsible .....i actually did assume that killing kevin would be something that he couldn't simply erase from his head. so yes, i assumed he was having nightmares over it. based on what I've seen from sam in the past, and based on his continued anger in the present. i do agree that it would've been better for us to have seen it, and i can only guess as to why carver wanted to save that reveal til the end....
but in all fairness, subtlety regarding sam even occurred during the kripke years.....as early as the first season....i mean it wasn't until devil's trap that it was revealed that sam had been shopping for rings for jess..that he wanted to marry her....which in retrospect went a long way to understanding why sam was so desperate to find her killer. we finally learned in a season finale reveal what how sam was really feeling....
and seriously...i could count on one hand how many times during the kripke years that sam had a true heart to heart with dean, which he in fact initiated. how many roadside conversations did we have during those years? and how many of them had sam confessing something? once...once sam demanded dean stop the car...it was in metamorphosis.. ..and how many times did we hear a roadside confession from dean to sam? lots.... funny as much as dean does bury stuff, he's just as open about what he's feeling, when he feels it. we never not know what's going on with dean....and this dates back all the way to the beginning of the series. the only time we get to hear anything from sam is if he's drunk (playthings), scared(houses of the holy), emotionally/phy sically deteriorated(sa crifice) or suffering from an extremely high fever(the great escapist).....o ther than on those occasions....sa m pretty much keeps his pain to himself. he internalizes it and it becomes a part of who he is....and we don't know get to hear from him how despondent he is, how he sees himself until 8 yrs later.

now are the writers that incapable? i don't know that they are...i always got the impression that they were restricted on what they can write. i base that on the second half of s8....the first half of season 8, for me, was chuck awful...i spent most of the time angry and disliking dean and the other time i spent trying to get fans to understand where sam was coming from, and what i believed to be really going on....not an easy task...and you say....well if they wrote it the way they should've, i wouldn't have had to take on this task....but the more i watched, the more i paid attention, the more i understood the intent of the writers and where they were taking the story....and though i still don't like the first half of s8, i don't see the writers as incapable of representing sam and dean....because the second half of the season, i loved. and i felt the second half of the season, we got much more insight into both boys and the boys felt like the boys again. so it dawned on me that these writers can write for the boys fairly and equally when they are allowed to.....when the story calls for it.....but if the story calls for misunderstandin g and misconception.. ..i did see the writers as capable. i mean, they're not all in the same league as the kripke writing crew was...there are a few writers who could use a good binge watch....but for the most part, unlike most i know, but i didn't see the writers as not being able to write for one character vs the other....based on the knowledge that there are deleted scenes that have been written that had more of sam expressing his feelings, i'd say that the writers were capable of giving us more show and less tell, but somebody didn't want it.
look i'm not trying to sway you to my way of thinking....i'm just offering another outlook. i'm not going to take shots at the writers when i'm not there to truly know what's being discussed between them and carver and singer.....but this i do know.....there have been episodes in s8, the second half of s8, that were really well written and not just by ben e. so i know that the writing team is totally capable of writing sam and dean the way most of us like to see them act with ea. other....i think when sam and dean don't behave the way we want them too, its easy to lay the blame on bad storytelling instead of coming to terms that the story is intentionally being told this way....that carver has a vision and no matter how much the fans complain about this or that, in the end, it's his story to tell.....

as fans we have a choice....we can trust in the show runner and the story he's telling. we can wait for the final result before we condemn the writers and carver. we can focus and appreciate the positive and not nitpick and dissect everything we see as negative....or we can spend the hour finding fault with every aspect of the show and never truly appreciate the true genius of everyone involved in creating this incredible story about two amazing and flawed brothers.

i choose the former. ;)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-14 01:36
That is the thing .I syill do not understand why they did not show Sam's nightmares.I am not telling they had to make Dean aware just us.In Kripke era it was much much better and since the demons were behind Sam and not Dean it worked 85% of the times..but now it is Dean who the supernatural is behind so why not show about Sam?
It does not matter what carver and co talk or that some scenes were deleted (srprise surprise mostly Sam scenes) It is what they show on Tv matters.It was never about the story they were telling it was about how the reveals were made.
As far as your last para goes it can be also seen as being extra lenient on the writers and knowing where they faltered and in that case i am in the latter.;)
Oh and I appreciated true genious during the Kripke era I just don't see it now.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-14 08:23
i have my own theory for that. and most likely you will not see it this way, but i'll share it with you anyway. ;) first let me just tell you that i too think kripke a genius. I will be forever grateful to this man for giving us this show. I will be forever thankful to him for choosing jared and Jensen to fulfill the roles of these two amazingly flawed brothers. I will be forever impressed with his scripts, his direction and everything else he's done in connection with this show.

that being said, when eric did introduce us to the boys, he didn't introduce us to boy scouts....he introduced us to heroes....but seriously messed up and somewhat flawed heroes. these flaws were introduced and somewhat touched on, but in my opinion, under kripkes realm, never resolved. when sera took over, i found she did a good job continuing with kripke's vision, while still installing her own vision. sera never resolved any of the boys issues. the boys still basically are emotionally messed up individuals stuck in the same routine.

carver, who was part of kripke's writing team then took over. his scripts were amazing and character driven and he managed to focus on the boys flaws. as far as carver goes....i still think he's holding onto to kripke's basic formula...the Winchesters and their incredible love for ea. other...the brotherly bond. but i feel that carver has his own vision as well. based on what I've seen, carver's goal is to bring these boys out of the dysfunctional relationship they have and create a newer, more mature one based on mutual understanding and acceptance of who they are. but most of all, to start seeing themselves with love instead of self hatred. both boys share this flaw of self loathing. it's this flaw in both of them that have led to all the misconceptions they have in regards to how the other sees them.

carver has been focusing on both of these boys flaws in his storytelling. dean sees himself as nothing but a grunt. a killer. nobody hates him more than he hates himself. this belief has been the cause of most of the angst between the boys. sam sees himself as unworthy of saving. he sees himself as a monster, a freak. he believes his brother sees him as a failure and a disappointment and never has or will trust in him because of it. because of sam's low opinion of himself, he keeps all his pain inside. he doesn't defend himself when dean or bobby jump to conclusions. he lets himself be punished. he lets the misperception go on. this has been a major flaw of sam's for sometime now.

both boys flaws have been focused on these last two seasons. of course it would've been so simple to show sam's nightmares....b ut i believe the reason they weren't is to illustrate sam's flaw. if he had just let dean have it from the start instead of internalizing all that pain. instead of falling into the same old wrong idea that dean doesn't really trust in him because he's unworthy. if sam had been able to overcome his inner monster then, though things wouldn't have changed for dean, at least the boys might have been in less self agony.

i think the story went the way it did because it's both of the boys flaws that brought them here. this is what i believe carver wants to change and this is the way i believe he chose to do it. now you can choose to believe me naïve, or lenient if you want, it's your prerogative and it doesn't hurt my feelings...

but the way i see it...i choose to see myself as optimistic that what i believe is in fact the truth. I will keep my faith in the writers and carver until this storyline is complete. I will hold off on complaining until i feel the need to. if i end up being wrong then i will gladly admit that i was too lenient all this time....but if the story turns out like i believe it will, then i will have wasted no time focusing on the negative and be grateful that i always appreciated the positive..
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-14 09:49
Quote:
but i believe the reason they weren't is to illustrate sam's flaw.
Quote:
this has been a major flaw of sam's for sometime now.
If so (the second quote)why not show Sam's nightmares.Not showing Sam's nightmares does not illustrate Sam's flaw but not telling it to Dean with the intent of having Dean know the repurcussions will illustrate that.Quote:
now you can choose to believe me naïve, or lenient if you want,
The same way you can choose to believe I nitpick everything we see as negative I will assure you it does not hurt me.Quote:
but the way i see it...i choose to see myself as optimistic that what i believe is in fact the truth. I will keep my faith in the writers and carver until this storyline is complete. I will hold off on complaining until i feel the need to. if i end up being wrong then i will gladly admit that i was too lenient all this time....but if the story turns out like i believe it will, then i will have wasted no time focusing on the negative and be grateful that i always appreciated the positive..
I do not mind as its your prerogative.:)
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-09-13 00:09
This brings up one of my big issues with the way the story is told. When Dean gets hurt it is portrayed as the worst thing ever. We got an entire half of season 8 with Dean being all hurt because Sam thought he was dead and didn't try to save him. Then he brings it back up in the season 8 finale, just so we all know what a failure Sam is. Then Dean does something that is knowingly against everything Sam would want. He takes away control of Sam's body. He agrees that wiping Sam's mind is a good idea whenever he and Gadreel think it is convenient. He says he wants Sam healed and Gadreel gone ASAP then keeps asking Gadreel to bring people back from the dead, knowing that it means Sam will be possessed longer than would otherwise be necessary. The sh*t hits the fan, Sam finds out and suddenly it was no worse than shared housing. Dean ORDERS Sam to just forget that his body killed Kevin, because God Forbid we see anyone not named Dean in pain. Sam gets zero chance to discuss what it really felt like to wake up and not know what day it was, to realize that he had memories planted in his mind that never happened, just to cover Dean's deception. No, the storytelling immediately moves back to poor Dean and Sam and his feelings are dismissed as "it wasn't that bad" I'm really hitting a wall with the constant, season after season examination of Dean's epic manpain, while Sam gets no POV, no sympathy not even a look at the fact that anything bad has happened to him. It's like the hallucinating 24/7 in season 7, it isn't considered important enough to even mention, if the pain is Sam's. Heck if something happens to Sam we have to be reassured that it wasn't painful at all and let's get back to feeling sorry for Dean.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-13 14:25
I'm sorry I don't know which post you are replying to so I'll take a swing at this. I absolutely do not disagree with anything you say. I think my only point was about Gadreel and his intentions. Not about the possession or "shared housing". Castiel was asking Sam if he felt threatened by Gadreel. He was trying to get a read on Gadreel not on how Sam was dealing with the possession (now wouldn't that have been a nice scene). He wanted to know if Gadreel was a good angel being manipulated like he had been or an evil angel out for his own gains. Turns out it was a little of both but that was the only point I was trying to make.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-09-13 00:09
This brings up one of my big issues with the way the story is told. When Dean gets hurt it is portrayed as the worst thing ever. We got an entire half of season 8 with Dean being all hurt because Sam thought he was dead and didn't try to save him. Then he brings it back up in the season 8 finale, just so we all know what a failure Sam is. Then Dean does something that is knowingly against everything Sam would want. He takes away control of Sam's body. He agrees that wiping Sam's mind is a good idea whenever he and Gadreel think it is convenient. He says he wants Sam healed and Gadreel gone ASAP then keeps asking Gadreel to bring people back from the dead, knowing that it means Sam will be possessed longer than would otherwise be necessary. The sh*t hits the fan, Sam finds out and suddenly it was no worse than shared housing. Dean ORDERS Sam to just forget that his body killed Kevin, because God Forbid we see anyone not named Dean in pain. Sam gets zero chance to discuss what it really felt like to wake up and not know what day it was, to realize that he had memories planted in his mind that never happened, just to cover Dean's deception. No, the storytelling immediately moves back to poor Dean and Sam and his feelings are dismissed as "it wasn't that bad" I'm really hitting a wall with the constant, season after season examination of Dean's epic manpain, while Sam gets no POV, no sympathy not even a look at the fact that anything bad has happened to him. It's like the hallucinating 24/7 in season 7, it isn't considered important enough to even mention, if the pain is Sam's. Heck if something happens to Sam we have to be reassured that it wasn't painful at all and let's get back to feeling sorry for Dean.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-13 03:39
Quote:
He had him tucked away safe and in a happy dream.
This is wrong.He only had sam's conscious tucked away in a safe and happy dream while Sam's life was actually a sucky and horrible reality.Quote:
He wasn't being manipulated into doing things he didn't want to do until Gadreel went with Metatron.
Actually he was.Quote:
My tired argument is if Dean had been straight with Sam maybe Kevin would still be alive.
Mine is if Dean had been straight with Kevin maybe Kevin would still be alive.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-13 04:36
Well until Gadreel was coerced by Metatron to join him Gadreel didn't manipulate Sam into doing anything against his will that harmed Sam or anyone else. There were missing chunks of time and slowly Sam began to feel that something was wrong with him but the only time Gadreel took over other than talking to Dean was to heal the dead or save Sam's life. Evidently Gadreel wasn't lying about Sam not being healed yet since Castiel had to continue healing him after Sam expelled the angel. Off hand I can't think of anything else Gadreel forced Sam's body to do. My point was that Gadreel didn't do anything to harm Sam. After agreeing to go with Metatron of course all of that changed. But even then Gadreel didn't harm Sam. He did have Sam (or Sam's consciousness if you like) safely (and by safely I mean so that Sam wouldn't see what he was being forced to do) away in a happy dream. Which of course made things all that more shocking to Sam when he regained control. And having Dean walk away on the bridge probably hurt Sam more than anything Gadreel did to him.
I think we are saying the same thing, if Dean had been straight with Sam Kevin might still be alive. Sam may have even gone along with the "shared housing", since it is in Sam's nature to help others, if he had known that he was helping an injured angel vouched for by Castiel.
E
# E 2014-09-13 08:20
Quote:
Well until Gadreel was coerced by Metatron to join him Gadreel didn't manipulate Sam into doing anything against his will that harmed Sam or anyone else.
How was Sam not coerced or manipulated or not forced to do anything against his will when he was used as the instrument of death for 3 soldiers, Abner, Thaddeus, April and Kevin? How was he not further coerced when he was shoved to the background every time Dean called Gadreel up to use him to save Cas and Charlie? How as Sam not damaged each time Gadreel took him over forcibly and then wiped his mind clean? Was Sam consulted during any of the times that he was used to save or kill? No, he wasn't, and to my mind that is using him against his will, manipulating him and traumatizing him. Just because Sam didn't always feel the direct effects of these actions does not mean that he will not feel the end result of being used. I am sure, given the choice that Sam would not have participated in ANY of the 7+ murders that he committed while Gadreel was riding around in him… to me, that's being manipulated continually and that's hurting others against his will, something that Sam expressed as his dying wish to never happen to him again.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-13 10:35
in all fairness, Cheryl did say "until metatron coerced gad...but I think it was more like manipulated gad...that at that point gad/sam hadn't hurt anyone.

I think that this was a risky subject undertaken by the writers and carver. It's one that needed to be written so very carefully and i'm afraid that some of the writing didn't do that so well. :( carver should've definitely written more than two eps this season...needle ss to say though:

it's really muddy waters here .

possession is wrong. or for the sake of argument, in this case, it was wrong for sam. dean should've never done it or at the very least, he should've been honest with sam from the go.
i get it though, dean couldn't let his little brother die. no parent ever wants to outlive their children...and dean still carries that parental role. dean can't imagine a world without sam in it.
dean goes against everything that sam would ever want...but not out of hate. though sometimes one can love too tightly...
dean once again doesn't look any further than the now, not even considering the consequences... well actually he did know there would be consequences, he just ignored them.
now you have the ultimate invasion of ones body and mind. an act that is seemingly the ultimate violation...and it is a violation...but and here's where it gets a little muddy, it wasn't just that ....gad saved sam. ahh, but sam was ready to die. yes he was. he had a mental battle with himself and had ultimately accepted he couldn't win...so if he's going out he's doing it his way....but here's the thing....dean/g ad offered sam a way out of dying...he could save him...sam at first hesitated...but in the end, he chose to live. he chose dean. the way dean did it was the use of trickery and deceit yes, but sam's love for his brother...his choice to want to live...dean's trickery didn't create that....that was already there.
now if i'm dean, and sam says yes when offered a way to survive, then i'm going to think I did the right thing because sam did say yes...so he did really want to live. so it's also this that justifies dean's actions. it doesn't but for dean it does.
now one can say that if dean had told sam the method in which he would save him, sam wouldn't have gone with dean, he would've chosen to die. that's what dean believes...but we don't really know that to be so. we don't know that sam wouldn't have said yes to possession if dean had been straight. based on what I saw from sam in s6 and his telling himself that he would never leave dean alone out there...I could easily believe that dean telling sam to stay because he loves him and cant do this without him would've been all that sam needed to agree to an angel inside of him. sam noted that he would've liked the choice...again for sam it's all about dean's trust.
so gad is inside sam now and he's keeping his word. he's healing him and he's off in some corner inside sam's body. the first time gad came out was to save sam. isn't that why he's in him in the first place? to keep him alive. gad saw himself doing the job he promised dean he would do. there was no malice. he went back into hiding after he did it. for gad, this was a start to his redemption. the second time he came out was to try to assure dean that he could trust him, that he did the right thing. dean's guilt was weighing down on him enough for gad to take notice. the third time dean called on gad to save Charlie. again...gad took over but to save a life both he and sam loved. I believe dean saw it as sam doing the same thing if he knew. assumption yes, but I think a good one. the other time gad took over was to save sam again...it was only for a second to heal his wound. then again to save cas...which again I think dean assumed sam would do if he knew gad was in him...and I think he would've too. again a good assumption on our part.
up to this point, had sam known gad was in him...would he have allowed gad to save his friends? I think sam would've. but here's the thing....sam didn't know. that is the dilemma.
what show seemed to illustrate, in thinman and to an extent in kotd and dybim, was that it was the secret/lies that hurt sam the most. if sam knew the truth, then he wouldn't be having nightmares over killing kevin. it stands to reason that at some point sam would've ejected gad and if gad didn't go, well then the boys would've found out the truth all the sooner. sam noted that gad and cas were the ones trying to help dean, dean pointed out that this was the angel that had you kill kevin....and sam replied, the angel you let in in the first place....dean trusted gad then, and because of it, sam is giving gad the benefit of the doubt now. to me that illustrates that sam understands dean's motivations. sam gets that dean was trying to save him...it shows that it's not so much the possession that's hurting him as much as it is the lies. I think this could've been written better, but it is what it is.
and i'm sorry if i'm speaking out of turn Cheryl, but from what I'm getting from her.....the way Cheryl and thinks some others see it, though the possession wasn't the right course of action, it was a desperate one made out of love and not hate...fear and not courage. a big brother looking out for his little brother, because that's always been a part of who he is. two sides of the same coin.
dean putting his trust in this angel was risky, but for dean necessary.
dean knew there would be consequences, but he didn't realize the extent would go further than sam's anger. something he was willing to deal with when the time came.
dean bore the guilt... he wanted to talk to sam...but his fear trumped his desire to come clean.
yes gad played a part in that ....but did he lie? gad needed to heal. he needed a safe place to hide. sam provided a safe haven. in the meantime he would heal sam. I do believe that gad would've kept his word. his need for redemption is strong and saving sam was an important step in that process. gad was just naïve to think that metatron offered him true redemption. the burden of guilt and shame can make one do things they wouldn't normally do. (dean Winchester anyone?)
gad believed he was doing good by saving sam and keeping him in the dark seemed necessary in order for him to save him. he saw it much like dean did....the way to save sam's life. once gad left, it wasn't like he had to deal with sam's anger.
so prior to metatron's manipulative influence....ga d was doing what he promised. he was saving sam, healing him. as noted, sam was being held together with duct tape and rubber bands.

kevin's death changed it all...but still as a result of the possession, sam still feels violated...gad knows all his thoughts and feelings...he's been intruded upon and I think that's part of sam's anger. I think sams' hurt comes from the lying. His pain, his guilt

had kevin not died by sam's hands....would sam still feel the same? well imho, yes and no.
yes sam would've been pissed at dean. he would've been hurt, he would've been angry and he would've still most likely believed that dean didn't trust him.
but had kevin not died by sam's hands, then I really do believe that sam wouldn't have been able to stand his ground when it came to dean. I think he would've eventually just swept it under the rug just like dean wanted and he would've gone on internalizing all that pain once again and fallen back into the same trap of believing how dean doesn't trust him and never will. kevin's death may seem like a tragedy and just that....but everything happens for a reason..... it's kevin's death that ultimately brought the boys where they are now...and where they will end up...and I believe where they end up is much better than where they've been....with a stronger bond. a new understanding and acceptance of themselves and ea. other. a new mature brotherly relationship based on mutual trust and equality. tragedy or no, this wouldn't have happened without the loss of kevin.
so possession of sam....was it really so black and white....
for some yes. for others no. for the Winchesters.... .well that I think we'll find out soon enough. ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-09-13 12:17
Quoting Nappi :

"and i'm sorry if i'm speaking out of turn Cheryl, but from what I'm getting from her.....the way Cheryl and thinks some others see it, though the possession wasn't the right course of action, it was a desperate one made out of love and not hate...fear and not courage. a big brother looking out for his little brother, because that's always been a part of who he is. two sides of the same coin.
dean putting his trust in this angel was risky, but for dean necessary.
dean knew there would be consequences, but he didn't realize the extent would go further than sam's anger. something he was willing to deal with when the time came.
dean bore the guilt... he wanted to talk to sam...but his fear trumped his desire to come clean."

Yes, exactly. Not black and white. This show usually excels at that. The writing, as of late, hasn't always been really great at making that clear. One or the other or both brothers come off badly as opposed to letting us see the inner turmoils they are going through and why they made some of the decisions they did. I am on the same page as Cheryl here. Thanks. Also thanks for being ultimately positive about the show and where this is headed, your posts are always appreciated. :)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-13 13:04
:) you're welcome. thanks for reading them.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-13 10:42
My point was that before Gadreel was coerced by Metatron he didn't interfere with Sam other than to talk to Dean or save Sam or someone who had just died. After Metatron was a different story although Gadreel still didn't harm Sam. That I think is what the conversation between Sam and Castiel was about. Cas wanted to find out if Gadreel felt threatening to Sam. He wanted to make sure that Gad was just misguided and not truly evil. I was trying to make a point about Gadreel not about the violation of Sam's body.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-13 08:43
Quote:
I think we are saying the same thing, if Dean had been straight with Sam Kevin might still be alive.
No,since Gadreel was telling Dean that informing Sam about his possession was a no no he should have told Kevin atleast when he knew it was gadreel not ezekiel.
Gadreel possessing sam itself was against his will .I think we differ in seeing whether the possession without permission is harmful or not.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-13 10:54
The point I was making was that if Dean had told Sam regardless of what Gadreel was telling Dean that he was being healed by a fallen angel and one that was injured Sam could have had the choice to either eject the angel or accept him. If Sam had accepted Gadreel then he would have been aware that the lapses of time were when the angel took over and he could have maybe taken action since Gadreel was too weak to stay in Sam's body. Kevin lives because Kevin would have been aware as well.
The whole point I'm trying to make is about Gadreel and his intentions. Which is what Cas wanted to know. Did Sam feel threatened. And since Gadreel didn't harm Sam at any point during the "shared housing" Cas took a chance that Gad was misguided and being manipulated as he was by Metatron.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-09-13 11:21
Gadreel caused no direct harm to Sam, and partially healed him, but did threaten to rip Sam to shreds when Dean and Castiel captured him, and did not go willingly when Sam tried to eject him. He also listened in on Sam and Dean's conversations. What I had trouble understanding was why he didn't just leave Sam? He already had another willing vessel in the bartender played by Tahmoh. Was it out of a sense of duty, keeping his promise to Dean to heal Sam while he healed himself? Was it to hide from the other angels as he initially told Dean? Was it his attempt at redemption, doing the right thing? Was it something about Sam as a vessel? After all, Sam was the chosen vessel for Lucifer.

That being said, Gadreel's story is, as they say, complicated. He ultimately did the right thing and redeemed himself, but left a trail of destruction along the way, the worst of which was killing Kevin. So, in this whole possession story, I always though Dean was more at fault than Ezekiel/Gadreel .
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-13 11:36
He did threaten to harm Sam but he didn't. I think he really wanted Dean to think he was still a good and honorable angel who was doing what he needed to do. That was the recurring theme throughout the season "I did what I had to". I also think in the beginning while he was healing Sam he stumbled onto a safe place to hide with a hunter who would protect him. That was why he needed Cas to go. He was afraid of being discovered and that if the other angels found out who he was he would be killed. Gadreel was a very complicated character but in the end he just wanted redemption for his sins.
E
# E 2014-09-13 21:45
I guess our definitions of "harm" are different. When Gadreel began killing people in episode 2 (those demons he killed were in normal everyday people who also died) that was harmful to Sam as Sam was forced, against his expressed dying wish only 1 episode prior, to not be manipulated into being a weapon ever again. The fact that Sam was used as a weapon, a loaded gun was harmful to Sam IMO and I am sure, if the show had even remotely allowed Sam to react to the possession in any way, he would have been terribly upset to know he was used in this way AGAIN just like he'd been used countless other times in his life. It could be part of why Sam was so suicidal after Gadreel was expelled, why he was so passionate in his stance that "no one life is worth more than any other, not yours, not mine and not Kevin's" and why Sam was so keen to do "one right thing."
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-13 03:36
Quote:
the reason i feel sam referred to it as shared housing is because he remained in control
until he was not in control.The control Sam had was an illusion.He never was in control because if he was It was HE who would have decided when gadreel surfaced not Dean or Gad.Quote:
gadreel didn't do what the other angels had done to their vessels or what demons do, which is take over completely.
He did and before he did this he modified Sam's memories.This was a problem too.Quote:
i don't condone the possession.
It was the show that indirectly gave a green signal.Quote:
he did kill kevin
not just Kevin.Quote:
what he initially thought and felt regarding gad
What Sam initially thought did not matter as Gad was out of Sam by then.If Sam had impressions of Gad when he was possessed then it would have mattered.Quote:
i don't think sam has been belittled
Its Sam's experience that has been belittled .Quote:
and start taking control again.
sorry this did not make any sense to me as he was not allowed a confrontation with Gadreel by these writers.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-09-13 02:49
The writing on the show can be very dismissive of Sam but ''shared house'' to describe non -constant possession really did take the biscuit.
E
# E 2014-09-13 21:30
Quote:
in all fairness, Cheryl did say "until metatron coerced gad...but I think it was more like manipulated gad...that at that point gad/sam hadn't hurt anyone.
Quote:
My point was that before Gadreel was coerced by Metatron he didn't interfere with Sam other than to talk to Dean or save Sam or someone who had just died. After Metatron was a different story although Gadreel still didn't harm Sam.
I guess we have differing definitions of what constitutes harm. Gad killed those three soldiers in episode 2, before he was being manipulated by Metatron. He killed April in episode 3 also before being manipulated by Metatron…. hell, before we even knew he was Gadreel. This notion that Sam wasn't manipulated or hurt or in any danger from having Gadreel inside him able to take him over at any time is fantasy IMO. He was being used and abused from day 1 with the initial memory wipe and continually throughout the first 12 episodes. He was held hostage and threatened with bodily harm to keep Dean in line. He was made to be an instrument of death (the one thing he stated categorically that he never wanted to have happen to him ever again) by episode 2.. By episode 3 he'd been made to kill 4 people. How anyone can dismiss the traumatic aspects of this (other than the show, I guess) or say that Sam wasn't harmed by these events leaves me scratching my head. Perhaps fans are falling for the "the possession wasn't really a big deal Sam, so I'm not sure what you're upset about" attitude that Dean and the writers have taken? They've white washed the whole plot to the point that Sam seems to have been on a Club Med vacation rather than the victim of a crime against his person, his humanity and his autonomy and forced to do THE ONE THING he would rather have died then do again which is to be used as a tool and weapon against innocent people. The show has been telling us all season long that as far as Sam is concerned the possession wasn't a big deal (although it sure seemed like a big deal when it was about Dean and his decision to have Sam possessed in the first place), and now it seems that even the fans are beginning to believe it too, buying into the lie that Sam wasn't in any real danger, he wasn't being manipulated at every turn or threatened, that he wasn't forced to hurt anyone and was not himself hurt in any way when the episodes clearly show that this was not the case; 4 dead by episode 3. I guess we will have to agree to disagree here.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-13 22:37
e, what soldiers are you referring to in eppy 2? the only soldiers that I recall gad killing were the demon soldiers sent by abaddon to kill sam..and those soldiers could very well have already been dead by the demons themselves, not gad.

april....who's april? wasn't she the reaper who killed cas? didn't dean kill her? i'm sorry, I get that you don't in any way shape or form condone the possession and I respect that...I do. but I have to disagree that gad did harm to anyone prior to gad meeting up with metatron. those soldiers were demons and they were about to kill sam...I certainly don't fault gad for doing what dean would've done to save his brother. or sam for that matter to save his. sam and dean have killed their fair share of demons and i'd say most of those kills did not happen after exorcising them out of a human vessel. as for april, she was evil. she killed cas...and if memory serves....gad didn't kill her...dean made gad save cas...dean did..

here's part of the transcript :

Seeing the boys, APRIL turns and swiftly stabs CASTIEL straight through the chest. DEAN draws his own angel blade and the brothers run at APRIL but she effortlessly uses her angel powers to fling DEAN into the kitchen bench and SAM into the closet across the room. She kicks DEAN'S angel blade away as she makes her way over to SAM.

APRIL

This girl's popular with all the boys.

DEAN eyes the angel blade still sticking out of CASTIEL'S chest. SAM gets up to face APRIL but before he can make a move she punches him across the face and sends him back to the floor. APRIL turns around just in time for DEAN to stab her in the chest, killing her in a flash of brilliant white light. DEAN turns to CASTIEL.

the only thing gad did in this eppy that might have upset some people was tell dean that cas couldn't stay in the bunker....other than that....gad didn't hurt anyone.

i just want to make note that i have never for one second dismissed the traumatic impact of this possession on sam....as a matter of fact, i am one of the few who has continually been defending sam. in my very long posts you will find that i have constantly pointed out how i don't see sam as being unsympathetic and how his behavior has been understandable and acceptable to me given what he's been through and how betrayed and hurt and angry he is....



so yes, in this case I guess we will have to agree to disagree. :)
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-09-14 00:07
I tend to agree that April is less of a problem, the soldiers Abaddon had possessed is a slightly more ambiguous case. First, the soldiers hadn't been possessed for long. There was no "they were rode hard and put away wet, so the real soldiers can't be saved" argument. And there is a good chance that Sam would have had to kill them, instead of trying a mass exorcism like the used in Jus In Bello (which Sam apparently did remember because he had it on his phone for Mother's Little Helper). The thing is, Sam's body was used to to kill without his consent. This doesn't meant that Gad was wrong to kill the soldiers. It doesn't even mean that Sam wouldn't have done the same thing if he had been conscious. The point is, he wasn't conscious. If I'm roofied and I go home with my husband, who I love and enjoy having sex with and then I have sex while roofied, I'm probably not doing anything that I wouldn't have done if I were not influenced by the drug, but I'll never really know because the actual choice was taken away. The fact that it was a way Sam usually acts and that it may have been the only way to solve the situation still does not make Sam's body killing several possessed people a choice SAM made. Lord knows, people are still having conniption fits about the nurse in Lucifer Rising, even though she was possessed by a demon and had been ridden by that demon for so long her body had been damaged AND her body had been kidnapping, murdering and cooking newborn babies. So Sam's body killing someone without his full knowledge and consent is troubling, without saying Gad was wrong to do it. It's just one more part of what happened to Sam while possessed that was deemed unimportant to even talk about. He could have blown it off. He could have questioned if there was another answer. instead we got zero POV as to how Sam feels about what Gad did with Sam's body. It's just another way that the writers refused to deal directly with the fallout for SAM in regard to the possession. If other, more egregious incidents had been explored (Abner, the Rock star, whatever Gad/Sam was doing during the times that Kevin noted that "Sam" was disappearing for hours at a time with no explanation, not talking about the early cases where Sam killed without his own knowledge would be less troublesome.

The other issue about Gad killing the soldiers is how Dean handles informing Sam of what happened. Dean takes all the credit for the kill telling Sam that he was knocked out and basically useless during the fight. Sam was coming off Sacrifice where he explicitly stated that he felt that he was more of a hindrance than a help to Dean. Dean saying, yeah you screwed up again, got knocked out and wonderful, powerful, competent me took care of six demons all by my little lonesome does not help with the issues Sam was dealing with in regard to Sam's self worth. But again, that part was swept under the rug in favor of how could Sam not immediately reassure Dean that he was loved and forgiven.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-14 01:18
i respect your opinion but i don't think in this particular instance i agree entirely.

as i recall, what brought the boys to this abandoned ghost town was a rescue mission to save the two hunters that abaddon was going to kill. sam(not gad) and dean knew what they were getting into. they knew what they were going to be up against and i believe they went in knowing that they had to save these innocents from those demons and abaddon. when sam walked into that diner, the hunter he was sent to rescue, who lured them there, got shot and killed. sam was alone, just out of the hospital by the way, and not up to speed. sam seeks refuge in that diner or whatever it was and he's met by two demons. i don't think they were there to treat sam to a nice lunch. they were going to kill him. sam(not gad) tried to defend himself before gad took over...but sam wasn't strong enough, then the third one showed up...and in the moments before gad took over, i didn't see sam take out his phone to try to play a pre recorded exorcism. sam was getting the crap beaten out of him. and when sam entered that diner he had a weapon and was prepared to use it, but he was overtaken. gad stepping in saved sam's life when sam was unable to do it on his own. point i'm getting at is that sam did try, he did make the choice to protect himself against those demons who were trying to kill him,....the problem was that the demons were stronger than sam...they knocked him out....gad only took over once sam was unconscious.

the transcript:

SAM is fighting both JASON and DEMON!SOLDIER #2, getting thrown over the counter as they overpower him. He scrambles back up as DEMON!SOLDIER #3 enters.


DEMON!SOLDIER #3

Cool, I didn't miss the best part.


EXT. ABANDONED DINER - DAY

ABADDON

So appreciate you boys coming when I call. I think that's what I like most about you Winchesters. You're so obedient. And suicidally stupid. I like that, too.


DEAN

Are we gonna fight or make out? 'Cause I'm getting some real mixed signals here.


ABADDON

I want Crowley. Or what's left of him.


DEAN

Yeah? What's in it for me?


ABADDON

I let you die. You give me Crowley's head, and I will snap your neck, quick and clean. You won't feel a thing, trust me.


DEAN

And if I tell you to get bent?


ABADDON

Oh. Well... you know, I've loved this body since the moment I first saw it. You're the perfect vessel, Dean. You give a girl all sorts of nasty ideas. So go ahead and play hard to get, and I'll peel off this "no demons allowed" tattoo and blow smoke up your ass.


DEAN

Oh, well, I gotta tell you, between you and me, it is a horrow show up there.


ABADDON

It can get worse. Trust me. 'Cause once I'm on top, I'll make you watch. And I'll use your body. Have you ever felt an infant's blood drip down your chin? Or listened to a girl scream as you rip her guts out? Because you will. You and me, lover. We'll have a grand old time.


INT. ABANDONED DINER - DAY

SAM gets thrown into a wall and falls down, unconscious.


JASON

And here I thought all you Winchesters were supposed to be tough.

so sam was literally and physically unconscious by a blow to the head when gad then took over to protect sam by killing those demons. gad didn't take the choice away from sam. the demons stopped sam and gad only continued with what sam intended to do.

so it's here where i disagree.

but i will contend that sam doesn't know how truly weak he is because he doesn't know his true condition....an d that puts sam in great peril. that's where dean's lies start to work against him and sam both. in trying to protect and keep him alive, he simultaneously puts him in danger of getting killed because he's unaware that he's literally being held together right now by gad.....
E
# E 2014-09-14 08:46
Yes! This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make only you made it much better Percys. It bothers me on many levels especially the fact that no one in the writers rooms seemed to understand that they were violating Sam's dying wish only 1 episode after he'd made it and that addressing that might be a good idea. Look how much time they spent on Sam supposedly violating Dean's dying wishes both with Season 4's "don't use your power's Sammy" which Dean never actually said, and season 6's "if I'm gone, let me be gone and don't look" which actually was said but was then negated by everyone except Sam who actually tried to follow it in good faith. The fact that Sam did do what Dean didn't want him to (season 4) or didn't do what Dean did want him to (season 6/8) has been brought up over and over and over again by Dean and every other character, it's importance playing out again and again. So, what about Sam's dying wish? To not be taken over and used like he had his whole life? To be allowed to decide for himself what the course of his life is going to be? He was very clear to Death about that and Dean was privy to that conversation. Then, it's violated in the very next episode because of decisions that other people have made on his behalf and in direct contradiction to his clearly expressed and dying wish. It is never once discussed further, because it's Sam, and who cares what he wants… obviously not Dean thats for sure. And Dean calling up Gad at will for a conversation or to save one of his besties? I am sorry, but that is just vile. How is this not harmful? It's like getting hypnotized to cluck like a chicken on command, and your husband knows the word that will trigger you and he uses it on you for months afterwards just to get a laugh at your expense. Maybe he says the word so you'll cluck like a chicken while you're in your underwear or at your kids school or when all your friends are over, and they all stand around and laugh as you cluck away, completely oblivious. It sickens me. And it sickens me more that the show doesn't even seem to get what they've done, by acknowledging in any way how severe this was. They have Sam claim it was "shared housing" and move on as though what happened to him was of no account. And now fans are claiming that Sam wasn't harmed in any way until Metatron began to use Sam as an assassin as though Sam having to kill people was the only harmful thing. Well, I could not disagree more, Sam was harmed continually from the very moment he lost full control of his body until it was returned to him in Road Trip. He was further harmed by all the people around him who did not help him and left him to deal with his trauma alone and by the writers who never adequately explored any of the negative aspects of what they decided to do him. The possession and its resulting trauma were all about turing Dean into a demon, period. So poor Sam has been left to cluck like a chicken on command and in total oblivion while everyone around him watches and laughs and does noting to help. So yes, we will have to agree to disagree, because there is no condoning what was done to Sam in my mind and the entire story was an epic fail because of a lack of attention or serious consideration of the themes they were playing with in the story. I don't mind delicate subjects or controversial stories, but if you go there, the issues MUST be addressed. You can't go down the road of non-con and then gloss it over, ESPECIALLY with a fan base that is mostly women. It's too big of a societal issue to be glossed over in such a way and quite frankly, I find it offensive as a woman. This is where a strong female presence in the writers room would have helped greatly. The all male contingent that currently makes up the bulk of the writing on this show is very evident in the possession arc, and not in a good way.
eilf
# eilf 2014-09-15 20:16
Quote:
Sam was harmed continually from the very moment he lost full control of his body until it was returned to him in Road Trip. He was further harmed by all the people around him who did not help him and left him to deal with his trauma alone and by the writers who never adequately explored any of the negative aspects of what they decided to do him. The possession and its resulting trauma were all about turing Dean into a demon, period. So poor Sam has been left to cluck like a chicken on command and in total oblivion while everyone around him watches and laughs and does noting to help. So yes, we will have to agree to disagree, because there is no condoning what was done to Sam in my mind and the entire story was an epic fail because of a lack of attention or serious consideration of the themes they were playing with in the story. I don't mind delicate subjects or controversial stories, but if you go there, the issues MUST be addressed. You can't go down the road of non-con and then gloss it over, ESPECIALLY with a fan base that is mostly women. It's too big of a societal issue to be glossed over in such a way and quite frankly, I find it offensive as a woman.
Precisely. Exactly. Except that the people around him didn't just do nothing. They actively told him he was wrong to be angry, wrong to think he had a right to his own decisions, wrong to stand up for himself. What sort of a message is that? How does it reflect societal issues? The answer is, in recent seasons, that it doesn't, that it is only a TV show, that you are supposed to watch it once for the pretty and then forget about it.
But it used be better than that.
I miss that version of the show.
E
# E 2014-09-14 08:02
Yes, the soldiers had demons in them, but they were taken alive, then killed by Sam at Gad's direction. Yes, they were demons, but the demons were wearing human soldiers at the time and those three soldiers are dead now. The show completely covered that over….wanting us only to see badass Sam/Gad smoke three demons, but to me they were people who spent the last few hours of their lives possessed, and probably terrified. After what Sam did in season 4 with the nurse (exact same thing, only we got to see the human side of it) his dying wish was to never have to be used that way again. Ironic that only 1 episode later that dying wish is violated and it's not mentioned or addressed in any way at all. I guess its OK for Sam to have morals and to express them as long as they don't conflict with the plot in any way.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-14 12:40
I am sorry. I have tried to keep up the conversation but it has gone so all over the place that I don't know where to put the answer. Won't do much explaining though. Just fast summarize.

1. In Supernatural there is one rule. Kill or be killed. The humans the demon's posses are still people yes. But mostly they have been said to be -dead- already. Like people on the buss where they possessed the soldiers. And in my sense the boys can't really put a pause when they are fighting. Pick up a note book and pen and say: Hold on, I need to ask you few questions: "Is the person you are possessing still alive?" Could I just say they would be dead before the first word? It would be awesome if they would take the effort like in season one but what did they get for the effort. The person was dead. They don't have the luxury or the boys would have been dead long ago.

2. Gadreel killed the soldiers. Look up to the first part I wrote. Sam is alive because it and the show goes on. So Gad defended Sam. Was it right the soldiers got possessed and that they died. No. But was it right the hunters died in Abaddon's and the soldiers's hands? That is a no either. Supernatural is not running in a flower field and jumping among the butterflies. I wouldn't watch that show btw. PS. April from episode 3, (The one that killed Cas) was killed by Dean.

3. Did I read somewhere that Cas and Charlie was saved and cured without Sam's permission? And that is a bad thing? Umm, they are alive and A) Sam would have wanted them both saved because B) Both mean a lot for Sam too and are his friends. Not only Deans as some might have suggested. Was Sam possessed, yes but would he still have wanted to do the same thing if he knew. Yes.

4. So that this won't go round and round. Yes, I think the possession wasn't right but from it came also good. Cas and Charlie are alive and also Sam and Dean too because Abaddon wouldn't have split that fast which would have left him dead too.

Anyway, their lives are complicated and that is why it is pretty hard to judge by the normal rules. I don't even want to. I just want to see the next episode and where the story will go.

- Lilah
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-14 17:03
e,

the boys have been killing demons without exorcising them for years. sometimes we get an exorcism, sometimes they get killed. this is not a recent thing since carver took over. as I recall, during the kripke years ...sam shot the crossroad demon and she was a vessel. dean's killed his fair share of demons as well....I don't recall dean exorcising yed....he shot the bastard in the heart. the heart of a human vessel..that was s2. I don't understand why all of a sudden these specific demons matter, when countless other demons have been killed by both boys over the course of the show.

you say sam's dying wish was to never be used again. that wasn't his dying wish at all. his dying wish was that if he was dead, no one could bring him back. it may be a technicality, but sam wasn't dead when dean saved him, sam was dying, he was still alive. when sam trusted in dean's way out...for a chance to survive, sam took it.

I don't condone the possession and I have countlessly defended sam's actions this season when most people have complained that he's not sympathetic enough or are annoyed because he's still hurt and angry. nobody here has gone out of their way for sam more than I have. that being said....I've gone over the transcript. sam was with the other hunter when he got shot. sam ran inside the diner to seek cover and refuge and when he walked through the door, two demons were waiting for him and ambushed him. sam wasn't exorcising anyone, he was fighting for his life. then demon 3 comes in, more demons than sam can handle and he's thrown against the wall and knocked out....the demons were approaching sam and about to kill him....

I understand that this possession goes against everything you believe in. as much as I don't agree with the possession either, I have to say, that if gad had done nothing, sam would be dead. if abbadon hadn't been distracted by gad, dean would be dead. gad saved both boys and i'm glad he did. given how confused, yet upbeat sam was when he woke up, thinking dean saved him....oh I don't know...but it looked to me that sam was pretty glad to be alive. as for the demon's vessels, unfortunately I think those soldiers were already dead. unfortunately hunters don't always have the luxury to save everyone. if sam and dean and every other hunter had to take the time to exorcise every demon they've ever encountered, they would be dead men.

and for argument's sake, let's say gad did nothing. sam would be dead. dean would be dead. or let's say somehow dean managed to get away from abbadon.....nev er would've happened but let's say it did...he goes back to the diner and what does he see: his brother is dead. dean can't wake sam, he summons gad, gad informs dean his brother is dead. . so now dean has a dead brother on the floor. what do you think dean's going to do? he's going to make gad bring sam back.

no matter what scenario plays out...sam will get saved. and he'd damned well better. :) look i'm glad gad saved him. I mean if this guy is in sam, he very well better keep him safe. In my heart I cannot fault gad for saving sam's life. just like I cannot fault dean for saving sam's life...I fault him for the way he did it....but mostly it was lying to sam. he did what he did, fine....but dean should've told sam the truth from the start...or at the very least as soon as sam started to notice and believe something was wrong with him.

I haven't forgotten how sam has been violated. I haven't forgotten a single memory swipe. I don't condone any of that. I've said from the start that I thought dean should've found another way to save sam, and/or not use trickery to possess him...

but I cannot fault gad for saving sam when sam was defenseless.

as for how sam feels about the possession, the story isn't over yet....the boys haven't talked yet....so i'm going to wait and see ....just because it wasn't discussed in s9, that doesn't mean it won't get discussed at all....I mean after all, how can sam discuss how he feels in regards to the possession if the person he needs to talk to about it aint listening....ai nt talking....and just wants to wish it all away. I still think the discussion regarding the possession is one that is meant to be had after dean's stint as a demon. ;)
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-14 17:38
Have to agree Nappi on this. She just wrote it better. But all in all same thoughts. Hesitate with demons = dead hunter ;)

- Lilah
E
# E 2014-09-15 04:34
Quote:
the boys have been killing demons without exorcising them for years. sometimes we get an exorcism, sometimes they get killed.
The boys have NOT been using unsuspecting, unaware human dupes to do their killing of demons for them, which is what was happening when Gad used Sam to kill for him. It was not Sam's decision to kill those soldiers, he was just the blunt object and that is unfair to him.

Quote:
you say sam's dying wish was to never be used again. that wasn't his dying wish at all. his dying wish was that if he was dead, no one could bring him back.
Yes. Sam wanted to never be brought back, but that was so that he could not ever be used to harm another person again. Here is the direct quote from the script:
"If I go with you... can you promise that this time it will be final? That if I'm dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away… AND NOBODY ELSE CAN GET HURT BECAUSE OF ME."

You can say that his dying wish was merely to die and stay dead, but the dialog clearly indicates that Sam's biggest concern was that he has been used as a weapon to kill innocents AGAINST HIS WILL before and his main concern is that this will happen again unless he's dead. 'Do no harm' is at the crux of Sam's dying wish.. a wish that was violated just one episode later as he was used in exactly this way… manipulated against his will to exact an outcome that he had no knowledge of. Then it was never mentioned by anybody ever again, because Sam's dying wish, his code of ethics and the way in which he would choose to live his life and actions that he might choose to take or not take doesn't seem to mean anything to anyone on this show other than Sam.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I am in the minority here, but since TPTB choose not to show the victim's side of this issue in any meaningful way, since Sam was not allowed to verbalize how he felt about the possession (other than "shared housing" which is a shameful whitewash and nothing more) or what it felt like to be used as a tool for life and death, having his autonomy stripped away so that his body acted without his permission or knowledge, not to mention the fact that the social implications of such a delicate subject were not addressed in any way or even acknowledged, for me Sam would have been better off dead, show or no show. Either go into a story like this carefully, fully showing the victim's side and taking a stance on the social and societal concerns that arise out of the story elements or don't do it at all IMO.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-15 05:49
Quote:
The boys have NOT been using unsuspecting, unaware human dupes to do their killing of demons for them, which is what was happening when Gad used Sam to kill for him. It was not Sam's decision to kill those soldiers, he was just the blunt object and that is unfair to him.
i'm not saying that sam wasn't made to kill by gad. kevin and abner both never expected to be killed. post metatron's interference, sam was made to kill quite a few, mostly the angels metatron put hits on. This in fact is traumatic for sam....I've never denied that. I have often pointed out how I've always assumed sam was having nightmares about it, even though it wasn't shown...because I know sam well enough to know, that this would weigh heavy on him. yes, I concede that sam didn't want to do any harm...and in regards to kevin....i'd say he feels he's done harm. I've repeatedly said that Sam is still angry and hurt and can't just sweep it all under the rug....over and over I've said this....I have often and still am quite alone in the wilderness as Cheryl so aptly put it, because of my defense of sam . I have never taken the possession lightly.

Needless to say, it wasn't until metatron's influence that he started to kill under orders in his misguided belief that in the end it would get him into heaven. but under the circumstance in eppy 2....sam was defenseless and gad was just saving his life. since sam wasn't upset with dean when he believed dean killed them, sam didn't say anything like....you killed them, why not exorcise them? then I truly believe that sam was in fact grateful to be alive, and to see his brother alive as well. in regards to sam about to be executed by three demons, while he lay there defenseless to stop it? gad, who is an angel, killing three demons about to harm a human....who according to cas, humans are after all the angels job to protect.....the n i'd say gad was doing what he was always meant to do. it wasn't until metatron that he started to abuse his power.

you mentioned sam's only pov about the possession was that it was like "shared housing"...i just wanted to put this out there...

i don't believe the conversation between cas and sam was intended to be anything more than cas getting a better read on gad. just the way the conversation went down, i knew the point of it had nothing to do with sam's feelings in regards to his possession..... the question was very specific ....

cas wanted to know if sam had felt personally threatened by gad. he had already had a plan and before he initiated it, cas wanted to be sure. sam's response....was that he hadn't felt threatened....h e felt gad to be more misguided then evil... this was up until the point of kevin's death, and metatron's influence.....t hen sam said he obviously made a mistake because he killed kevin.....but cas saw it differently...u p until gad killed kevin, he was not under metatrons influence....so cas was able to assess that gad was being manipulated by metatron, as he had been....that prior to that, gad hadn't hurt anyone....espec ially not sam.

this conversation was never about possession....

the conversation about possession is meant to be had between sam and dean....not sam and cas.....while i thought shared housing wasn't exactly the correct choice of words and it would've been better had sam been able to elaborate...i got the gist of what he meant. this talk between cas and sam was never the talk about possession or sam's feelings about it...it was strictly for strategic purpose.

in regards to tptb choosing not allow sam to verbalize how he feels about the possession, the story isn't over yet. since the boys haven't had their talk yet, because i believe that carver wanted dean to experience first hand what it's like to not be in control of one's own body or decision making, to in fact walk in sam's shoes ...i'm not dismissing the idea that sam's possession will never be discussed. sam could've explained to dean how he felt about the possession and dean would've felt like crap....but would've made a difference? would it stop dean from making those kinds of decisions in order to save sam in the future? i think not as he hasn't so far. so maybe this time it has to be a case of literally being where sam has been so dean could truly understand. (and vice versa of course).....isn 't this a step in the road to finally understanding and accepting ea. other? isn't this what carver has been telling us he was doing all along....destru cting the old relationship to build a newer, stronger one....

again, we can agree to disagree...beca use i still believe we will in fact get that talk we've been waiting for and we will get sam's pov...;)
E
# E 2014-09-15 08:09
Quote:
i don't believe the conversation between cas and sam was intended to be anything more than cas getting a better read on gad. just the way the conversation went down, i knew the point of it had nothing to do with sam's feelings in regards to his possession.....the question was very specific ....
You know, that's probably true. But to me that makes the way that they handled the possession even worse IMO because the ONE TIME anyone asked Sam anything about the possession, the one time he was asked for any insight regarding his experience, it was only to further Castiel's plot and not Sam's; Castiel learned something from Sam's words but we learned next to nothing about Sam's experiences. With this one tiny, trivialized scene (the scene that demoted Sam's experience from Trauma to "shared housing") removed from Sam's experience of the possession, we are now left with nothing at all…. not one moment that was about Sam discussing or showing what HE went through, not one time where we got to feel the pain that he was feeling or reliving the horror that Sam was living through, and for a subject as touchy as non-consent that is totally inadequate and completely inexcusable IMO. Where were Sam's monologues to the dead Kevin? Where were Sam's soulful looks in the mirror and angsty showers? Why didn't Sam get to confront Gadreel as he wanted to and should have? Why didn't we ever see these nightmares that we learned about in the 11th hour? Hell, why didn't Dean even ask? He tells Sam that Kevin's death is on him as thought that should magically fix everything that Sam has experienced then takes off and never even asks Sam if he's ok, or showed any interest in what he put Sam through. They only told one side of the story this season, Dean's side because that side was the only one deemed important enough to focus on and with a subject as touchy as non-consent, that's simply not good enough; don't go there if you are not going to follow through, it's insulting otherwise. I know that you see Sam's experiences and to a certain extent I do too, but there is no equality here in the writing. Dean's side of the story was the only side deemed important enough to receive attention, so everything that happened was geared toward that one thing leaving the other half of this show with a story idea that had no follow through and no insight. As one of the two leads on this show, both Sam and Jared deserve better.
E
# E 2014-09-15 08:14
Quote:
the conversation about possession is meant to be had between sam and dean....not sam and cas.....
Well… that's also probably true, but since that conversation doesn't exists, since Dean never asked or showed any interest at all we got nada, zip, zilch, zero and a character who suffered this awful terrible thing with no one to discuss it with, not even the audience because it wasn't deemed important enough of a thing to distract us from the "real" story which was Dean becoming a demon. Writing fail, period.
E
# E 2014-09-15 19:37
Dean would have felt like crap? God forbid! :D
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-09-15 10:21
Quote:
sam could've explained to dean how he felt about the possession and dean would've felt like crap....but would've made a difference? would it stop dean from making those kinds of decisions in order to save sam in the future?
I could care less about how affected Dean or what utility Cas would find of Sam's experience or even if somehow Sam's experience helped some other creature.I wanted to know about sam's experience for how it affected Sam and the only time I got was for the purpose of Castiel's mission.
amyh
# amyh 2014-09-14 16:27
Lilah....about this....

3. Did I read somewhere that Cas and Charlie was saved and cured without Sam's permission? And that is a bad thing? Umm, they are alive and A) Sam would have wanted them both saved because B) Both mean a lot for Sam too and are his friends. Not only Deans as some might have suggested. Was Sam possessed, yes but would he still have wanted to do the same thing if he knew. Yes

If we agree about all this....then why did Dean lie about the possession? Why couldn't Dean be honest at any point of the possession? Why did he insist on caving to Gad's threats? If we the viewers would understand this about Sam, that it wasn't so much the possession but the lies...then why couldn't Dean?If Dean has straight up told Gad that he knew Sam would be pissed but if I was honest and told him the truth...the facts...and it truely would have played out like you beleive.... Sam is more upset over the lies then the actual possession....a nd if Dean had laid out the facts to Sam, Sam would have been ok; especially knowing Cas vouched and he could exersize free will and kick GAd out at any time

The thing is....all this possession did was illustrate that Dean doesn't know his brother at all. he doesn't even try. Instead Dean would rather manipulate, brainwash and lie. I have to then i wonder if Dean even wants to know Sam?
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-14 17:17
Sorry, but I usually don't answer any character versus character posts or matters that go against one character. I actually try to avoid these kinds of debates like the plaque because I dislike which direction it goes most of the time and what trouble it brings. It has made me jumpy, but that is my reactions to a way things are written. (Also sometimes I fear that I misinterpreted the text too) So, making an exception just this one time. (hopefully) But being very brief. :)

In short, Gad threatened to leave = Sam wasn't healed fully and he would die = Impossible situation. If Dean would have even uttered a word like he once tried then Gad intervened. Dean going further --> Sam would have died. Gad would have jumped out by his words. Knowing the reasons later from the season if Gad would have been backed to that kind of corner it would have been bye bye Gad and bye Sam. I don't want Sam to die and I am sure Dean didn't want either. I understand Sam's point of view but also Dean's on this matter.

This is also my opinion on what I have see and felt by watching the show and season 9. Also we look Supernatural in very different ways so my view doesn't fit how others might see it. All in all I am glad I don't need to make any of the choices the brothers need to make. They are also human and that makes them have the good and bad stuff that comes with it.

- Lilah
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-09-14 20:31
Quick note, Gad never threatened to leave. He always said that Sam would throw him out and that if that happened Sam was still too weak and would die. Dean believed that Gad was right and that Sam would throw Gad out and die, but Dean was preventing Sam from making a decision about his own body and what he was willing to do to survive. Dean was not bowing to an angel that was going to up and leave on his own. To me that's a big, big difference. Telling Gad how to trick Sam into saying yes was a moment of panic and using the only available means to keep Sam alive because Sam was dying that instant. Months of lying to Sam was allowing Sam to violated on a daily basis. Sam was being healed. Sam was not suicidal, as proven by the fact that he was willing to try to stay alive. Sam was not incompetent to make decisions about his medical care. Dean wanted Sam to live. Sam was willing to live. Not allowing Sam even the chance to make that decision for himself was the issue for me. If, as an adult, I'm a Jehovah's Witness and I develop a blood disease that requires transfusions daily or weekly, it is my right to say that is against my religion and refuse, no matter what my family thinks about it. If they tell me that the transfusions are not human blood, but are synthetic blood, something allowed by my religion and they lie to me, I'm being violated, period. If a young intern finds out about the lie and intends to tell me, but is killed in order to stop him that is a horrific thing. It is horrific even if I happened to save 3 kids from being hit by a truck because I was alive due to the blood transfusions that go against my morals. It doesn't matter that Dean didn't want Sam to die. What matters is that Sam had the right to know what was going on with his own body and had the right to consent to it or to not consent.

The converse is also true. Dean decided that Sam drinking demon blood made him not human. At that time Dean locked Sam in the panic room the only thing Sam had used his power for was to exorcise demons and save the hosts and kill Alistair because Alistair could not be exorcised (and Sam was pissed that Alistair had tortured Dean). He had been getting his fix from Ruby, with her consent. The only other person drank from was an demon who was trying to kill Jimmy's wife and child. However, Dean decided that if the only way to get Sam off the blood was to risk killing him even though Sam didn't want to die. Dean has a nasty way of deciding when it is appropriate for Sam's choices to be violated to save his life AND when Sam's choices have a right to be violated when Dean thinks it is better that Sam die. Dean's overriding of Sam's right to bodily choice is not always in the service of keeping Sam alive, or healthy. It is Dean deciding if Sam has the right to live or if he has the right to die. That appalls me.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-14 21:50
Well actually Gadreel did threaten to leave that one time when he told Dean that if Castiel didn't leave the bunker he would have no choice but to go. So did he stay to heal Sam or to hide out in the bunker under Dean's protection. They went out on cases and Gadreel wasn't threatened by doing that. So maybe it was that Gad was afraid that Cas would out him to the other angels. Hmmm....conundr um.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-09-14 22:46
while I agree that this is a fundamental flaw in dean, though I wouldn't go as far as saying it appalled me, I do contend that dean making decisions for others has to stop. sam even made a comment to dean last season about "free will" only applying to him, so on the bright side, sam does realize that dean does this and hopefully in the season to come this will be addressed. dean doesn't only do it with sam....he's done it with kevin, lisa/ben, Charlie, cas....i'd say dean pretty much declares the way things should be with most of the people he considers "family". so for whatever his reasons are, when dean thinks something should be a certain way, he does have a tendency to assure that things end up that way... this has led to severe consequences quite often.....

the one thing I hope that we'll see once dean is cured, that he comes to understand and accept that he can no longer make decisions based on how he thinks things should be for others....he has to let those he loves make their own decisions....es pecially sam. ;)

I really think that this will happen....I'm glad that dean won't be a demon for long....I'd much rather see the boys heal and heal ea. other.....I really hope we get most of s9 with the boys finally at a place where they should've been years ago. :)
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-09-14 23:20
I always suspected this bossiness he displays with pretty much everybody was sort of a military thing drilled into him by John. Take action, be aggressive or die. That and when Sam was very young Dean had to often make decision for him and he hasn't let that go in adulthood. His instincts to make decisions for and to protect Sam is hardwired. He is both protective and overbearing sometimes. One of the things Dean has that makes him a good leader is decisiveness. It is also his downfall sometimes as he is also impulsive and doesn't think things through. I am also hoping Dean will reevaluate this season. I don't want Dean to lose what makes him a good leader, a decent man, and protective brother but his approach needs to be rethought. Just random thoughts. :)
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-09-14 22:09
You are right that Gad threatened to leave that one time. I don't know what Gadreel was afraid of with Cas, since they never made it clear. My guess was that Gadreel feared either that Cas would sense that Gadreel was possessing Sam. Now Cas knew Ezekiel, the angel Gadreel was pretending to be. Gadreel could pretend to be Ezekiel to Dean because Dean knew nothing about Ezekiel, but Cas? One wrong answer, one wrong comment and Cas would identify Gad as being a fraud. Now obviously, Gad could have avoided detection by staying hidden inside Sam and quietly healing him. Cas hadn't spotted angelic grace in the time he spent with them, so laying low had the potential to work. I don't know if Gad liked being able to "come out" and control Sam's body, or if he feared that even if he stayed in, Dean would suddenly demand angelic healing from him, blowing his cover. Certainly, he feared couldn't tell Dean he had to hide from Cas because he was pretending to be Cas's friend and why not tell him. Gadreel's state of mind got a fair amount of attention, but they did leave some holes in his thinking.
E
# E 2014-09-15 03:39
I wonder if it was more than that. I noticed that Gad was very careful not to allow Cas to see Sam at all. They were never in the same room together at the same time except while one of them was unconscious (or dead). When they were at the bunker, Gad seemed to be steering completely clear of Cas at all times. I always felt that Gad demanded that Cas leave because he knew that Cas would recognize right away that not only was Sam possessed (and Gad knew Sam didn't know that and his finding out was a risk to Gad) AND that the angel possessing Sam wasn't Ezekiel. I've always been under the impression that the angels can recognize each other even when they are wearing a human. The only reason Cas didn't recognize Hael was that he'd never met that particular angel before, but he knew right away that he was dealing with another angel inside a human host. So for Gad that threat to him was two fold, 1. that Cas would spill to Sam that he had an angel inside him and 2. that he would spill to Dean that the angel inside Sam wasn't Ezekiel. That was my take on why Cas had to be given the boot. It still doesn't indicate how they all got back to the bunker together though. Didn't they all take the same car? Unless Cas was unconscious that whole time? Possible, but a bit sketchy on the details.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-09-15 08:49
OTOH, Cas didn't recognize that April wasn't human and was inhabited by a Reaper (and apparently Reapers are angels now). Or maybe he hadn't gotten the memo that Reapers are now angels when they used to be just Reapers. Hael wasn't trying to hide her nature or pretend to be human, so maybe that's why he didn't catch on? I don't know. One of my complaints about this season is that the writing was sloppy, so I honestly don't know if Cas could tell if someone was an angel vessel or not. The ability to tell seemed to come and go.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-09-15 08:36
If I remember correctly, Sam, Dean and Cas were all together at a library table when Dean asked Cas if he had used protection. This was right before Cas went to get something to eat and Gadreel said Cas had to go.
amyh
# amyh 2014-09-15 08:40
Dont forget, Prix that the three of them were together at a BAR having beers together at one point.
E
# E 2014-09-15 09:01
That's ture, they were all together at that bar and Cas didn't notice anything about Sam having an angel in him. So, basically it makes no sense that Gad would demand that Cas leave. If he could hide in Sam and not be detected, why didn't do that? Why boot Cas out? I mean the bunker is/was safe (theoretically) so Gads argument about all the other angels looking for him wasn't really an argument. Another weak spot this season along with many other weak spots where the logic does not really track well. They needed Cas to be out in the world in his vulnerable human state so that they could further the angel plot (which went nowhere really), so contrive a reason that barely makes any sense for has to have to leave. Sloppy.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-15 09:21
Cas was human so he couldn't recognise other angels. There was no mention that A) Gad knew that he wasn't and angel B) He always talked to Dean when Cas wasn't there as Gad C) Cas's influence on Dean might have made him spill the beans that Sam had someone inside him. Cas was a threat in different ways.

Oh, and about the reaper thing:

Quote:
Dean: There's only one thing that can give and take life like that. We're dealing with a reaper.

Sam: You really think it's the Grim Reaper? Like, angel of death, collect your soul, the whole deal?
Dean: No no no, not the reaper, A reaper. There's reaper law in pretty much every culture on earth, it goes by 100 different names, it's possible that there's more than one of them.
Sam: But you said you saw a dude in a suit.
1.12 Faith

Quote:
Bobby: This is the Angel of Death, Big Daddy Reaper. They keep this guy chained in a box 600 feet under. Last time they hauled him up, Noah was building a boat.
5.10 Abandon All Hope...

BTW. All have been said in Kripke era so it has not been done like "just now" Hope that helps.

Anyway different view points so lets agree to disagree. :)

- Lilah
eilf
# eilf 2014-09-15 12:29
However (just to include all the show's thinking about angels) in 2.12 there is the following exchange, which very much implies that the 'Angel of Death' concept an entire season earlier was meant more as a description of a supernatural creature that in fact was NOT an 'angel' than an actual division of angels. That either the boys had done no more research on it and had forgotten that they HAD (specifically Dean, the skeptic) met an angel previously or they had concluded due to their research that the reapers were specifically not angels. There is no logic to this exchange otherwise:

DEAN Well, little odd yes, supernatural maybe. But angels? I don't think so.

SAM Why not?

DEAN (as if it's obvious) 'Cuz there's no such thing, Sam.

SAM Dean, there's ten times as much lore about angels as there is about anything else we've ever hunted.

DEAN Yeah, you know what? There's a ton of lore on unicorns too. In fact, I hear that they, they ride on silver moonbeams, and they shoot rainbows out of their ass.

SAM (sitting down, total deadpan) Wait, there's no such thing as unicorns?

DEAN That's cute. I'm just saying, man, there's just some legends that you just, you file under "bullcrap".
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-15 12:41
Well, both of the quotes was on what the books said. On that convo Dean didn't want to believe he was rescued and even less by an angel.

So, the books on season 1 and five tell what the reapers are by calling their leader an angel of death or we take a rant from non believer on religious things as canon (which actually turned later in the episode that Castiel was an angel and he was saved by one. And it ias Dean's opinion on that quote that there is no such things like angels, God etc. etc ...

Only thing that haven't crossed their way and is not on their words proven is that Big foot is real. :D

- Lilah

PS: Unicorn has actually been real by witchcraft. Even if it was psyko killer... In the episode which's name is so long and weird that I never get it right if I would try...... Ugh.... ;)
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2014-09-15 14:18
Being "real by witchcraft" doesn't count. :P

But as I've said before, for Reapers and Angels to be the same, we have to ignore...

Reaper true form ("http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=23&pid=42848#top_display_media")
Angel true form ("http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/images/1/15/AngelPossesstion.jpg")

And of course the entirity of episodes like 2.01 and 4.15. Then off the top of my head...

Why are the reaper traps and angel traps different? Why can reapers be controlled and angels can't? Why can reapers be possessed and angels can't? How threatening is Death to God if the former has to rent workers from the latter? When first meeting Castiel, Bobby decorates the room with "everything he knows" ("http://www.ho meofthenutty.co m/supernatural/ screencaps/disp layimage.php?al bum=61&pid=2023 8#top_display_m edia"). He has to know about things that deal with reapers (as confirmed in the episode he was dying), so why isn't Castiel stopped by the room? How were reapers taken into a building completely warded against angels in 4.15? In 4.15, why take the scythe of Death (who may not be happy you did) when you can just borrow Lucifer's sword to kill reapers? Why not just get some holy fire? Why can reapers track someone despite angel wardings put on them? Why do reapers have to take life & health from one person to heal another but angels can heal somebody outright? Why didn't Sue-Ann use the reaper to restore her husband's sight? (epi 1.12)

The prior quotes are pretty clearly just a use of colloquialism to help everybody grasp the concept any more than saying someone is "crying wolf" is referring to literal canines.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-15 14:51
Well, as Kripke wrote or made sure about stuff in earlier seasons so I think you better ask him. And maybe he will write a full out angel manual how they are, what sub classes they have. Why reapers work different like normal angels. Also there is an example that there is different race/class of angels if you remember the angel of love Cupid that is a Cherub lower sub class. Death is powerful but he was also a horseman and angel of death. But he seems even way more threatening. But anyway, I took the quotes that was on the episodes and they were references from books. That is the point. I am not making a point from the top of my head that Death was called "Angel of death" and I am sure his "minions" are not demons nor humans nor anything else than angels. Just different kind.

So don't know what your episodes hold or what not contradicts from them to those quotes. They were pretty clear in my book and to the rest. I am not the one you should ask. ;)

At least for me it is clear this way. And to the rest what you wrote. I think I tried to answer how I saw it last time and I think it didn't go anywhere then either. And don't want to repeat them again. :)

- Lilah
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2014-09-15 16:37
Well I can confirm once I get home and check my copy but in the S4 episode guide Kripke outright states that when he started the show he had no plans to include angels of any kind, it was only during the S3-4 hiatus that they were brainstorming and came up with the "old testament" idea for angels that he agreed and "signed off" on them appearing in the show.

It's how I've always known that Dean-as-Michael and Trickster is Gabriel was a late retcon in the show plan.

I can look for other proofs if you'd like, just tell me what you're looking for. I only regret that I lost all my back issues of the magazine... :*(
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-15 18:38
Are you teasing me? :D

Aaaaanyway, Of course I know that Kripke didn't want to bring angels in this scale to the story. Not at the first seasons. From those quotes what I wrote I have just seen the story rolling forward like you mentioned with Dean being Michael and Trickster being Gabriel. I like the story evolving. That we sort of don't know all at the same time if something is introduced to us like Reapers. Even I know not everything go as planned. Maybe if they wouldn't have had writers strike we wouldn't have angels but it still happened and it gave many memorable characters and actors playing them for us.

I think I am a lost cause for you with this. I would probably counter every evidence on how I see it and you would blow a fuse or something. :D

I write a lot of stories so maybe I just explain some things that seem weird with how it is possible. And about Death and how he and his "minions" can be angels. It wasn't said they were not or they are. They were kept mysterious and Death and reapers are feared but they were not *main plot points for many episodes* Castiel introduced us to that world and it evolved like many other stories. I usually just let my imagination flow and that is why I am probably little more to the forgiving side and well, I probably hop easier over canon hiccups.

But that is how I look at the show. It makes me enjoy a lot of it and I would be lying if somethings wouldn't have made me even grumble. But the actors and small things in the episodes have taken me over those bumps.

In short the proof doesn't change the evolution, story crossroads, the changes that was coming and the canon needs to adapt even if it turns to be a hit to your eye kind of thing and not a smooth sailing.

- Lilah
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-15 15:47
Angels of a lesser class? Has anyone tried to trap a reaper with holy oil? If Death is the angel of death "big daddy reaper" what are the reapers that work for Death? Why not angels of a lesser class along the lines of cupid? Could Castiel have been captured and "taken" into the room warded against angels? Has anyone tried to possess an angel? The reapers weren't trying to track Castiel they were looking for the Winchesters. Bobby didn't know about angel warding in 4.01 he knew about it by Deaths Door though. Since Death is an angel of a higher order than (I am assuming) regular angels (since we are assuming) I imagine you can't kill death except by his own weapon. Much like evidently Cain can't be killed by anything other than the first blade. Like cupid, reapers have different qualities than other angels. They presumably are not warriors of God but servants of death. Sue Anne maybe didn't want to cure her husband wasn't she after wealth and vengeance on those she thought were sinners? Sue Anne was also using a spell. In Supernatural lore spells seem to trump all. It seems that reaper lore can be used and twisted anyway you want. Some want very rigid qualities to there shape, abilities and being and others are more open to the evolving fleshing out of a small part of the overall Supernatural universe. I don't think there is a right or wrong here. Since Kripke was a little vague on reapers the rest of the writing staff has followed suit.
amyh
# amyh 2014-09-15 09:34
Ok...i don't recall all the details. Dean knew Castiel lost his grace/wasn't an angel. Stands to reason Dean would tell Sam. Sam knows...Gad knows everything Sam knows. And I couldn't beleive Gad didn't excavate any information he would think he needed to keep himself safe. The "Angel' basically put himself in witness protection. he would need to know what was going on around him, especially since Dean kept insisting on leaving the bunker and heading deep into angel territory,
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-09-15 10:44
Couldn't fix the spelling on my post for some reason, but yeah. That is on debate. Mostly I think the point is that Cas that is mixed to angel business has influence on Dean so that was no good to Gad. And also even if Gad knew Cas was human it wouldn't be smart to think he was off the hook. He might return to be an angel or angels would find him again etc. and as it was seen later it was indeed Cas that found out Ezekiel was dead and he did tell it to Dean. So Gad had good rights to be suspicious/caut ious in other words keep Cas away from Sam and Dean. And Cas didn't even need to have his grace/see the possession etc because he just got the knowledge by accident. So Gadreel taking care of all threats that he remains hiding was indeed smart.

- Lilah
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-15 11:06
I don't think that Cas could recognize angels. He didn't know that Hael was an angel until she said his name. Gadreel was afraid that the angels would find Cas even though he was warded. April found him (supposedly she found him by accident) so Gad was afraid other angels would find Cas and they would figure out who he really was. The reaper that Bart sent was looking for the Winchesters not Cas.
E
# E 2014-09-15 20:13
But the bunker is warded against all threats angel and demon alike and Gad would know that through Sam. Having Cas at the bunker was not really any kind of threat to Gad and other reapers and angels could not track him or get to him there. And Cas seemed not to recognize Hael, but didn't she recognize Cas? If angels can't detect other angels, how did she know who Cas was? The angel lore is so hopelesly muddled now that it's completely not clear if they can recognize one another or not. And now with the reaper screw up….um… additions it's so complicated and contradictory that I can't tell what their basic characteristics are supposed to be.

Wasn't there something said about angels being able to recognize one another in season 4 or 5? I'm not sure if I am remembering it right, but I was always under the impression that angels could always tell other angels even when they were in vessels. Maybe I am remembering it wrong?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-15 21:05
That is a good question about the bunker. Has it ever been established that it is warded against angels? Did the MOL consider angels a threat? Some were threats to the Winchesters but not all of them. Hael said she recognized Castiel I thought by his vessel. Gadreel's point was that April found Castiel even though he was warded (supposedly by accident according to April and Cas did tell her his name....silly angel). So he was worried the angels might use other means than rogue reapers to find the Winchesters and Castiel. Castiel didn't have his grace so he couldn't be tracked after he got warded at least by angels. The rogue reaper sent by Bart was sent to find the Winchesters not Cas. And Gadreel was afraid he would be recognized or at least found that he was not Ezekiel if the bunker was found by other angels.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-09-15 22:02
In S8 As Time Goes By, Larry (the last known Man of Letters) told Sam - Quote:
Because it is the safest place on earth, warded against any evil ever created. It is impervious to any entry, except the key.
Given that, it doesn't sound like the bunker is warded against angels - angels supposedly did not walk amongst man for 2,000 years until Dean was raised from perdition so I'm not sure if the Men of Letters would have considered them evil. In that regard, they didn't know what Sam and Dean did, that most angels are dicks.

But, then again, Crowley was popping in and out at the end of S9 so how well was it warded against evil? And the bunker has magical properties (cell phone calls can't be tracked), you never know. So I think they left it a little vague to give themselves wiggle room.

As far as reapers/rogue reapers go, the definition of reapers evolved in the first 5 years of the show. In S8/S9, a reaper is whatever they decide it needs to be that week for plot purposes.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-15 22:27
Henry did snag an angel feather from the MOL lab (?) so someone had contact with an angel. And there was that nephillum so friendly rogue angel?
I won't get into a reaper discussion but for me evolving them into more complex supernatural creatures doesn't bother me. I know it really bothers some or many I can respect that.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-09-16 12:58
yep, I think Henry snagged it out of the trunk of the Impala; they keep everything in there. You're right, if there was a nephillum, one of the angels didn't get the memo :)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-09-16 14:37
He must have had one to travel in time to begin with also. But I was remembering something else Henry said about using the power of his soul. Souls were mentioned a few times as was time travel. A way to help cure Dean maybe at a huge price for Sam? Assuming we have at least one more season to get Sam out of whatever jam he gets into saving Dean.