“The Song Remains The Same” – Share Your Thoughts
Here it is, episode night! It’s also a mytharc episode, so bring on the apocalypse. It’s been a while. I’ve already seen this episode, (albeit on a rough cut with no visual effects) so I’m taking bets you’ll like it. Or love it. Or will find its “jaw hits the floor awesome.” Oh heck, someone always finds a way to complain, so that too. Let me and everyone else know what your reaction is!
Alice Jester is the founder, editor-in-chief, head writer, programmer, web designer, site administrator, marketer, and moderator for The Winchester Family Business. She is a 30 year IT applications and database expert with a penchant for creative and freelance writing in her spare (ha!!) time. That’s on top of being a wife, mother of two active kids, and four loving (aka needy) pets.
Man, I already saw that and I’m sitting here with kleenexes an emotional wreck.
BTW, the MAJOR character death. It wasn’t Anna. Sure, she’s dead, but she’s not a MAJOR character either. You people have to read between the lines with spoilers! 😀
OMG!!! That’s more like it! I got home late and missed like the first five minutes–grrr– but wow. Performances were amazing, and the actor who played John–is it Matthew Cohen? That guy was channeling Jeffrey Dean Morgan like nobody’s business, gave me serious chills. Enough incoherence from me, must rewatch and process. Hey, Clarice–that’s awesome! Enjoy, everyone! 😀
It’s really strange. When I first saw this on the Warner Brothers preview, I saw a rough cut with no credits and no Visual effects. I didn’t actually see the Anna burning up scene so what they did was cool. Tonight, there was a Winter Storm Warning up in the left hand corner the entire episode. It blocked Sam’s face half of the time because he’s the only one tall enough. I’m going to have to get this on Amazon VOD in order to see it perfectly.
What a nice mytharc episode. It was so nice to see Sam meet mom and dad. He was so moved…I thought he was going to cry! And when he wouldn’t let go of John’s hand, you knew he has changed. And he got to see the John Dean idolizes…that was good. Also can see Sam’s has been working on those anger issues…sure Dean has helped, especially since we see them drinking together at the end. Wow, maybe the body switch has GOOD residual effects! So good to hear Sam forgive dad, Sam needed that. How ironic he ended up defending John to John.
Finally got to see Michael…not surprised he was sooooo nice to Dean…and of course, we get the ‘you are fated’ routine. Remember angels are dicks! Hope Dean remembers that too!Wasn’t surprised when a supernatural entity came to the boys help…I just thought it would be Lucifer.
Dean and Sam contemplating the possibility of saying yes, was disturbing, but of course it was supposed to be. Have too many episodes left to decide anything yet.
Loved Dean’s dreams this time. So much more like our Dean. Seems things are turning around finally.
As for Cas, I really didn’t think it was realistic for the boys just accept his turning Anna in so easily. I think a little bit more should have been said to him about it. And was surprised to see Dean not more open to Anna. She has never given him and reason to think ill of her before, quite the contray actually.
On a side note: I thought it took an awfully long time for Sam to draw that sign…..but then at least he used the right hand when he slammed it!
Really a lot more in there, need a re-watch to digest it all. Can’t say I haven’t thought of the Cain and Abel story before….and who’s blood line was it, John’s, Mary’s or both? Not that it maters…just like to get some history on John. Off to the re-watch.
Another Winchester death! What’s that bring Sam’s tally to? Three or four now, I think, depending on whether you count “Sympathy”… Too bad about the storm warning logo– whatever our affiliate did, it wasn’t intrusive b/c I didn’t notice it–but then, I was completely caught up in the episode. Instant classic, for me…
Ha…just ready your post Alice. We’ve had that MAJOR charcater death before….doesn’t count! 😆
I’m just sending teasers the way Michael Ausiello and Kristin Dos Santos do. Everyone goes nuts when a “character death” is announced when in Supernatural its so damned easy for the reset button to be hit. So I was having fun with you all!
I just read Alice’s episode preview also–nicely done with the teasers 😉 I can’t believe I managed to make to episode viewing without breaking down and reading it already
Sablegreen, Re: the bloodline, I’m thinking John, since he was Michael’s vessel not Mary
The bloodline is definitely John’s and it goes all the way to Cain and Abel! I’m not shocked since there have been many subtle references to those brothers in this show’s mythology but that’s so cool.
What’s interesting is its Sam’s bloodline too, so that’s why he’s perfect for Lucifer. I’m not sure Sam’s demon blood plays a role at all regarding the vessels. So we get an answer to Ruby’s “It always had to be you.” What was revealed is huge.
Wow, that was such an amazing episode. I think I need a rewatch immediately to process it, but awesome, awesome stuff. Michael in John was so cool! And man, I laughed so hard at the “I’ll turn this car around” part. Hee! I can’t wait to see what everyone thinks because it’s too late for me to be coherent. I need to sleep on this one.
I’m glad for the return of mytharc, though. I realized the reason I was getting so antsy for the heavier stuff is because this is my first season watching live, so if they had had two lighter episodes in another season, no problem. I was watching on DVD. Now, though, the wait is agony!
Caught that Alice, but following the train of thought, everyone can be traced back to Cain and Abel. Michael did say there was more than one vessel. Maybe another relative is out there!
I was the ultimate fan girl. Getting excited, yelling, goosebumps, squealing, the whole nine.
But in all seriousness this was one amazing episode. It not only touched on so many unanswered questions about the past but also about Angels, the Winchesters’ fate. everything, although I’m pretty sure theres a whole new set of new questions that need answers. I seriously need to watch this again though. I couldn’t get over the fact that Micheal showed face and not only spoke to Dean but possessed John. Major mindrape.
I was also upset that Anna while her intentions were for good… she went about it the wrong way. I so hate her and was crying happy tears when Micheal smites her ass.
I have to say the whole blood line thing was something I wasn’t expecting but I can totally see how YED’s blood, and the constant “It always had to be you” played in with Sam. Demon/Angel (well special blood for angel vessels) allows Sam to be Lucifer’s true vessel. Hard to explain… but my god that’s amazing writing.
And aw man we can’t forget Cas admitting Sam is his friend. They came a long way from the ‘boy with demon blood’. Proud Cas.
(Hi, I’ve been lurking here for awhile but this is the first time I’ve posted. Can’t resist anymore.)
Great episode but I’m a little confused about something. I was hoping someone might explain.
My DVR is broken so I can’t rewatch right now. As a result, I may be completely wrong about this, but it seemed to me Michael said Sam and Dean were decendents of Cain and Abel.
I see two issues with this: One) You could only be a decendent of one or the other, not both. Two) I might be wrong about this, I’m not really religious, but I thought in Christian tradition Noah’s great flood wiped out everyone that wasn’t on the ark and the only people on the ark were Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives. If I’m correct, that means the blood line was narrowed at that point. Everyone is a decendent of Noah and therefore a decendent of whomever he is a decendent of. As a result, if Sam and Dean were decendent of Cain or Abel, everyone else in the world would be as well. Right?
I’m a little confused. Anyone want to correct me/explain?
The episode had everything: drama, humor, suspense. And it was all so well balanced. I cried, I laughed, I sat on the end of my couch waiting for what was going to happen next.
My first tear was Cass calling Sam his friend… it was touching. Really the only way to describe it, and I think that’s because of how far along Cassy has come. And the boys so very rarely have someone that calls them ‘friend’. I’m an emotional git, I know.
I think this is one of the first episodes I’ve watched in a while where I couldn’t find a single thing to complain about. I am so please and proud of Kripke and Co. Really, they did an amazing job with this one.
There is so much to discuss about just this episode that it would take far too long and I’m still reeling, but ‘The Song Remains the Same’ definitely has made it to the very top of my favorite episodes list.
“Jaw hits the floor awesome” describes it perfectly! Sooo very very very good. Definitely my fave of the season along with Changing Channels.
Um…WOW.
And that’s really all I can say.
It did occur to me that a pretty significant chunk of the human race would be descended from Cain or Abel, as Sablegreen pointed out… Maybe not quite the entire human race though … I’m not especially religious, but the version of the story told in my religious background was pretty vague about how many children Adam and Eve had. Still, Sam’s ultimately the one who emerged from the demonic conspiracy, so it’s still a perfect setup for the fratricide archetype to play out, unless the guys succeed in managing to short-circuit things. Go, Team Free Will!
I actually said I liked the last two episodes, but they weren’t even in the same ballpark as this one. Sera Gamble shows them how it’s done. Just about everything was pitch perfect (extra special mention to Matt Cohen).
Well, that was an episode and a half, really. And after my first viewing the one thing that sticks out in my mind most is….we know nothing of John’s family. 5 seasons and nothing. We did learn a while ago (very while – Season 3) that all of the aunts and uncles and friends and relatives on Mary’s side had be systematically wiped out (epi 3.02 The Kids are Alright). Then, in Season 4 with In the Beginning we see more of Mary’s family.
But John. Nothing. I wonder if we’ll finally start to get some history on the Winchester line?
Wow what an amazing episode!!!
I don’t know about ya’ll but I think the two best scenes were when Sam told his Dad that he understood why John did the things he did and Deans chat to Michael. I’m so glad they finally brought Michael on the show.
Where do they find these amazingly endearing, adorable actors who are able to move us to our core to play these crucial roles? I’m sitting here, a weeping mess, and I have to go to work in about fifteen minutes.
I got up an hour earlier to watch the episode, because I couldn’t wait till tonight. I can’t believe where this is going…. I still have to sort out my thoughts, as I’m pretty much overwhelmed, and I can hardly type with tears in my eyes. How can the writers dare to give us an episode so full in emotional moments… how are we supposed to take this?
We always thought the writers love to torture the characters – oh, no, they love to do it do us!
Let me try to find some coherent thought… Do I need to?
That major character death thing – from the get-go it was clear that Anna was not going to survive this episode. So I actually began to fear that someone else had to die to make it ‘major’, and for a moment I considered it to be Sam, but dismissed that immediately, because that simply couldn’t be… And then it happened. My tea cup crashed to the floor and I barely wiped it up.
My God, I’ll be going insane till the end of this season…
There are countless moments I need to re-watch again and again… Sam being able to tell his dad that he loves him and forgives him (and it doesn’t really matter that YoungJohn doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about – Sam just can tell it to John’s face), what a heartbreaking minute.
Dean telling Mary the whole story… I don’t have kids yet… trying to imagine that my son (and I so hope to have a son one day… please, ye Gods…) came up to me and told me that kind of story – who would not go crazy right away?
Sam getting stabbed by Anna… I used to like her, understand her…. But she probably watched too much of Terminator…
Michael trying to not be a dick (is he?)
The happy, now glamoured, couple expecting their first child…. And Mary’s heartbreaking ‘Angels are watching over you’
Personally, the idea of destiny sometimes scares the hell out of me. I’ve always rooting for team Free Will… I still am… This is leading to a big finale already… just thinking what the creators might cook up is terrifying and fascinating. Is there any better show on the planet?
I need to go now, put on my business face and pretend that I got a cold (how else am I to explain that I’ve been crying and my eyes are puffy?)… Okay, one thing you learn in drama school – the show must go on…
I’ll get back later, for me it will be night, for you afternoon… and then see what’s been going on here. As I’ll be on a business trip over the weekend, I need to join in for a little while at least… Who else would understand what this show can do to us if not you, the compassionate fans that gather on this site? Gosh, so many of my own memories with my parents came up… I’d love a drink… But I guess some coffee will have to suffice…
Forgive any typos, I was in a hurry typing this down…
Love, Jas
I’m probably in the minority here, but I have to say that, overall, I was not very happy with how this episode played out.
Actually, I loved everything until Michael started talking and then things just fell through the floor. Seriously, that was Michael: a season one version of Dean with extra powers and the “daddy’s blunt little instrument” side of him magnifed by a million? This is who the angels have been (and probably will continue to) trying to convince Dean say yes to. 😐
I mean, I loved all the actors performances, and was in tears at the Dean/Mary, Sam/John scenes. Those were just beautifully written. And I LOVED the Cas and Anna scene at the beginning. I think I fell in love with Cas a little more during this episode – he’s sacrificed so much for the Winchesters and continues to do so.
But in the end this episode was just a real downer for me. I’m so fond of free will and the idea that one’s choices matter, and yet I haven’t seen any evidence that having free will and making good choices really makes much of a difference in the long run. This just hammers another nail into the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” column for me, with it not mattering whether it’s the angels who triumph or Lucifer, as it’s the same difference. *sigh* (And I know humanity defeats all is another option, but I can’t see any realistic way of making this option believably possible.)
hey everyone!. havent posted in ages so i thought i better write my fanboy thoughts! lol. this episode really blew my mind. it was incredibly. I had really high hopes for this episode and was thinking to myself that this episode is almost a sequel to the season for episode ‘in the beginning’ which is one of my favourite episodes of season 4. and i wasnt let down even the slightest. we had all the great winchester drama and then some and a real appluse to the actors of young john and mary. their emotions and the way they played the two great scenes in the ep was incredible. first the scene where dean tells mary that he is her son and second when sam talks to john and basically tells him he forgives him. they were beautifully well written and acted scenes. this show really is becoming a classic.
also jensen and jared hit it out of the park with their acting in this ep. and sams expression when he first sees his mother is classic! looked like a stray dog giving the puppy dog eyes cause its stuck in the rain and whants to come inside. amd finnally seeing michael was really exciting i had been waiting to see him all season. so farr this season is really good but i do hope we have stopped most of the standalones for the timebeing.
anyone think how alike Michael and Lucifer were in the way they approached Sam and Dean, hell they practically used the same arguments. I thought that was interesting, both have a level of arogance and that soft spoken approach where they try to lure people in instead of forcing people a la Uriel or Zachariah. I thought that was well played those are two (angelic) brothers who are more alike then they know. BTW anyone else find it interesting that Michael brings Sam back, he could have left him dead and it would have made Lucifer easier to deal with in an unstable vessel… seems to me that Michael is itching for this fight as much as Lucifer.
Also – liar! Anna, the boys weren’t trying to kill Uriel she actually does/did/whatever … sneaky. I have to admit that i was a little confused about Anna breaking out, did she break out? Was she let out but went off on her own mission or was that the angels plan all along because it doesn’t seem like it should be.
Loved Sam’s moment with his father – just so nice to see actually get to say those things and to see John before he lost Mary (still so subborn i see). Also Mary and her boys even though she’s not sure she believes them when they tell her to leave John so that they won’t be born she still fights for her boys.
Finally who didn’t love the family moment where they were all in the car, mom and dad in the front the boys in the back – it was just awesome -awkward family trip indeed. I’m so watching this again when i get back from work!
:cry:: :cry:: :cry::
*is reduced to a sappy mess of tears while trying to keep the keyboard dry*
DAMN YOU KRIPKE!!!
:cry:: :cry:: :cry::
Swap Meat was so much better.
I’m kidding! Excellent performances all around (definitely some classic John beginning to emerge in the young version), glad to see that the supposed best and brightest of the angels (not literally, Morning Star, so relax) is as much of a dick as the rest (seriously, Cas is proving to be so superior to the rest. Why? He’s got that burgeoning humanity).
Sam finally being able to tell John how he feels about him. Better early than never, no?
I do have to second a bit what Jas and immie_8 said. I’m as much of a fan of Free Will® as I am of the Browns and Cavs, so I would love to see *that* prove to be the final nail in the coffin (recaging?) of Lucifer, instead of some destiny bullshit guided by the biggest gang of narcissists the universe has ever seen (if I was a religious dude, I wouldn’t pray to this gang of jokers), but given how much the writers love to psychologically torture the brothers, that ain’t gonna happen.
The hypothetical Sam posed to Dean is beyond huge, for it helps explain to Dean *why* Sam did what he did in season four. What if the only way to help, the only way to express love for each other, for family, for humanity, IS to say yes?
I loved this episode! Sam getting to work out his daddy issues with his father really touched my heart. To those of us who have lost our fathers to an early death, it will always remain a unfulfilled desire to be able to do something like that.
My question on the episode, however, involves Michael’s explaination of using John as his meatsuit. He stated that the bloodline from Cain & Able to the Winchesters was needed for him to use John. Does that imply that Mark, who is Lucifer’s meatsuit, shares the same bloodline and is therefore related to Sam? What’s your take on that?
Grumble, grumble. My first post didn’t post. Groan and I wrote so much. ::sigh::: Okay, enough griping, I will try again.
This ep was amazing! I definitely need to rewatch because I’m sure there are details I’ve missed. Here are the things that stood out for me:
1. Yay, Cas considers Sam a friend. It was great how they showed Cas considering Anna’s argument before turning her down. He has changed.
2. I loved the interactions between Sam and Dean and Mary and John. They were touching and full of awesome.
3. John angry with Mary was perfect. I can only imagine this is how he felt when he found out later after her death, which, you know, I’m assuming he does find out because this is John.
4. When Michael showed up I wanted to stand up and cheer. I was hoping he wouldn’t be such a d@#k but it wasn’t surprising. He’s so condescending toward humans. If angels hate humans so much, why exactly was Lucifer the only to rebel?
5. For me the big scene was the answering of a question that has been bugging me ever since we found Mary was a hunter. Why didn’t Mary react to the flickering lights when Azazel first came for Sammy. I mean, that’s Supernatural 101 there. Michael erasing her memories answered that question perfectly. This is why I love this show. They always seem to tie those little loose threads right into the plot so seemlessly.
6. Cas’ reaction when he showed back into the present was interesting. Was his surprise that he was able to bring himself back? Or was it because someone interceded to get him back?
And finally, Team Free Will for the win!!!
Now that’s what I’m talking about! Awesome!
Hey Henry, I think is does mean that. Lucifer’s current meat suit (Nick?)has to be in the Winchester blood line some where. Which means John does have relatives out there, and remember, we did meet Adan, Dean’s and Sam’s half brother. No reason to think there are not more. Course we would need a live one, but I am clinging to the hope that there are other relatives, and I’m betting Michael knows who.
Wow, a very powerful episode. I loved all the scenes with the Winchesters.
It’s all so sad, what this family has had to endure.
This episode certainly left a lot of questions and things to ponder.
It’s one thing to take a life or resurrect a life once it has existed.
But what if someone was never born, can that destiny be played with.
From my understanding the deal being made with Azazel was the client(victim) had 10 years before Azazel would come and collect. His only mission was to feed demon blood to any child that was exactly 6 months old. So he could only target any child that would be turning six months after the 10year period was over.
So if Mary and John only had Dean and never had Sam, would they not of been ok?
If there was no child fitting the criteria, would Azazel of even bothered with them.
Or would he still felt he had to collect something from the deal. Would he of taken back his gift of life to John or sent the Hellhounds after Mary.
Is our whole existence based on Fate or Destiny?
Was Michael telling the truth? Is free will just a delusion?
If fate is the true ticket, then what’s the point of it all?
I’ll stand by Dean – Team Free Will
P.S. I thought for sure that Anna was going to tell Dean that Castiel had let Sam out of the panic room.
I FRICKING LOVED IT! The Papa stuff hit my John fangirl heart, we see Cas and Michael turned up. I ADORED it in every posssible way. Uriel tapped in too which was another fab surprise.
1. In reply to Bristor, technically you could be a descendant of both Cain and Abel if one parent was from Cain’s line and the other parent from Abel’s.
2. Wouldn’t the rest of humanity descended from Cain and Abel as well??? (I’m not thinking about Noah at this point, I’m already getting a headache hahah)
3. Cas is friends with Sam! That made me squee like a 12 year old fangirl 🙂
4. Cas is awesome.
5. Micheal is awesome. In the dick-with-wings way of course, but still awesome.
6. Poppa and Momma Winchester are AMAZING. I love them to bits. Every scene was pure gold and made me want to bawl.
7. I loved loved loved the way Micheal toasted Anna. It looked incredible..major kudos to the effects team.
8. I really want to jump through the screen and give those boys major squishy hugs.
9. I am absolutely in LOVE with Dean’s line at the end. “Team Free Will..and ex blood junkie, a drop out with six dollars to his name, and Mr. Comatose over there.” That’s going down in my personal hall of fame.
10. Free will vs destiny…oh I’m not touching this one. Maybe I should bring it up with some of my theology lecturers..
11. The whole scene at the end was great. The boys drinking together..and they seemed more at ease with each other than they have been since I don’t even remember when.
12. Sam’s moment with John…sigh. I’m so glad the boy got to get some of that stuff off his chest.
13. Weakened Cas pleased my inner sadistic fangirl very much. Along with John oh-so-happily slicing his hand open.
14. The Impala scene! Cute, funny, awkward as hell.
15. Remember CSPWDT? Mary’s uncle or whoever put up her headstone. So they definitely do have relatives. But then there’s point no. 2 up there. My head is now throbbing.
16. In fact, my heart is throbbing too. I feel like my body and soul have both been put through a blender, and only the best of Supernatural episodes do that to me.
17. I’ve only rewatched it once so far and I’m already rambling so much so I’ll shut up now.
I LOVE THIS SHOW. I LOVE YOU ALL. (it’s the chocolate talking, sorry). It’s midnight here, so goodnight!!
Thanks Sablegreen. My bad. I think Mark is the name of the actor who is playing Lucifer.
AWSOME !
Gotta re-watch.
Forgot my second part of my comment. Does the genetic component of being Michael’s vessel also mean that Sam meets the requirements? What if the brothers soul switched, as in Swap Meat, and then said yes. Would Michael and Lucifer inhabit the “other/wrong Winchester” body? And would that change of perception change their need to fight to the death with each other? Just a thought.
Loved the episode. Yet, very sad. It kind of left me feeling a little empty. Not sure why.
I am with all those prior comments about Team FREE WILL! It is my belief that our Agency and the ability to choose for ourselves how to conduct and lead our lives is one of the foremost gifts we have been given. For Michael to come in and say – Nope, that doesn’t matter, doesn’t exist – just really ticks me off. He is just like all the others. Yes, I believe we have a destined plan, BUT, that is all tempered by the choices we make here.
So I say “GO TEAM FREE WILL!!!!!” I would love for this story to be resolved without the brothers succumbing to what the angels continue to say is “their destiny”. That would be a great kind of “I told you so” moment.
Narcissus, don’t do it! speaking as someone who studied theology at university yes it’s very interesting but you’ll never escape! Seriously theology and philosophy lecturers could debate free will vs destiny/determination for all eternity!
back to SPN; Team Winchester + Cas = Team Free Will. I’m backing them all the way!
Team Free Will sounds great. Yet ….
My personal theory is this: Our destiny goes as far that our options are determined. With our free will we choose what option to take. My friend also claims that what matters is luck. So, some of us are lucky enough to have some good options to freely choose from, while some of us aren’t and may choose the less bad option.
Will any choice we make bring us to the same end? I don’t know. I’d like to believe it won’t. But I tend to believe it will. The choices we make take us down a certain path, some are straight and short, some are long and winding, some are an asphalted highway, some are back roads full of barriers. But nevertheless our destined options remain the same. I guess, this will eventually take us wherever we are destined to arrive.
Now I just wish to be lucky enough to have a happy end of the road. But that’s not mine to decide, is it?
Geez, my head hurts.
In itself and as an episode, awesome..Dean and John, Sam and John, Dean and Mary, Sam Dean and Mary…sob-into-the-couch-cushions awesome. What really broke me were Dean’s preschooler memories of his mom. Remember Season 1 Dean? How he brushed off childhood talk, implied that he remembered little about his mom or their old life. He must have treasured those crumbs…rice soup, pop-song lullabies…for years in silence. I can’t imagine him talking to John about stuff like that. *sniffle* But I am getting majorly tired of the constant “free will is am illusion” cant. Lucifer and Michael are BOTH pushing for the double-vessel showdown? Who is Michael taking his orders from now? Aside from it all being depressing, it’s becoming boring. If there is now hope for our boys, where’s the drama?
Hey Henry…..f it’s just a bloodline thing than yea. Sam would. I think Sam is extra special to Lucifer though because of his powers. Michael has his sword (whatever that is) and Lucifer has Sam’s powers. Just my opinion.
Based on Swap Meat, it doesn’t seem to require the original occupant give permission, anyone in the body can. I doubt that if Sam and Dean switched, it wouldn’t change. They wouldn’t say yes, but if someone else switched with the boys, than I guess it could.
The concept of free will and destiny will never end with SPN. I vote for free will always. That’s what the boys will do, but I’m sure Kripke will make it as hard as possible on us in the process.
First-time-commenting lurker here… don’t mind me while I brain dump.
Wow… that episode… just wow. It’s set of loads of thinky thoughts about the whole free will vs destiny question and the million ‘random’ things that have happened to get the Winchesters to this point.
Going waaay back to the beginning- the YED only picked Sam for his plan after meeting Mary, which is interesting now we know the Angel vessel genes actually come from John’s side of the family.
But- the whole Cain and Abel angle starts to make sense if we find out that Mary was descended from one bloodline, one of the brothers, and John the other. That way their children could be descended from both (and possibly, like others have speculated, act as vessels for either angel).
Did the YED sense this about Mary when he saw her, that she was descended from a line suitable for Lucifer to possess, and so single her child out as his favourite? As mind bending as that would be I’m kinda tending towards no since it wouldn’t explain why he had so many other psychic kids.
But it makes me think that Lucifer’s vessel has to have that demon connection for it to work, since that’s the only reason Azazel would’ve gone to all that trouble of making deals in order to bleed into the kids’ mouths. With angel vessels its all about what’s in your blood right? And with Lucifer having been locked in Hell for so long… maybe his angelic nature’s been tainted, or something.
So even with their parents from both bloodlines, ultimately Sam is still the only truly suitable vessel for the Devil (and might explain why possessing Nick, a presumably demon-blood free meat suit, is having such a bad effect on his body).
Ok long tangent there. But seriously, if John and Mary are both descended from Cain and Abel respectively, then the coincidences Michael was talking about in having them meet, fall in love and produce Sam and Dean, are HUGE. And completely mind-boggling.
And not making things look so good for Team Free Will. 🙁
Ruby’s words at the end of last season are actually what gives me hope that not all is set in stone- “It wasn’t the blood, it was you and your choices. I just gave you the options and you chose the right path every time.” As long as Sam and Dean have a say in the matter, as long as they have their options, yes or no, they can choose their own path. *cheesy grin*
Wow sorry for the mini-essay. It’s pretty much all speculation and guesswork but the episode was so good, it set off a train of thought and I went with it. :geek:
Back to lurkerdom I go. Just wanted to say though- Alice this site is awesome!!
This episode was – amazing and awesome!
This episode was – depressing as hell! (thanks, Michael)
No, really I loved everything about this episode but it did leave me with what felt like a hole in my gut. Am so hoping that all this destiny stuff is just a bunch of
hoo hah!
Mary was great and Matt Cohen channeled BDW so well and became the majestic Michael as well. Those two are really awesome actors!
Cas was great as well claiming Sam as his friend. Is Cas the only angel to be admired in the heavenly host?
I was quite fond of Anna last season, but she turned out to be a dick as well. Was she brain-washed or taken over by some demon? Was glad Michael crisped her up.
Sam and Dean with their mom and dad were heart breakingly endearing. Jensen and Jared outdid themselves again. We are so lucky to have such talent on this show, along with the guests that show up. I can truly believe this John and Mary are the parents that we’ve seen previously.
Destiny – no no no no way! Booooo!
Team Free Will – Yes yes yes! Yay! GO TEAM FREE WILL!
Phew, that’s more like it! 😀
A definite high for Cas ( Captain Comatose, new action figure for you there, Randal … ) I did a happy little wriggle when he claimed Sam as a friend and his mystic mumbo-jumbo growl is coming along nicely …
Sam defending John to John was a real lip trembler, and I don’t even like John! ( Curse you clever-clogs writer types mucking around with my preconceptions … )
The only tick in the shag-pile for me was the now tradtional ” Oooh go on, yield … ‘s yer destiny, innit … ” speech that every angel/ demon above a certain pay-grade is contractually obliged to deliver if they’re on screen for more than 30 seconds. If it was that much of a sure thing why all the fussing and rushing around … Why not just sit back and await the inevitable? ( Cos no-one wants to see 22 episodes of our heroes twiddling their thumbs and humming tunelessly to themselves is why, I suspect … 😉 )
Actually, I’m quite hoping Anna isn’t totally dismitigrated as I like her better as a baddy … Although I think your Anna/ Cas smoochy shower scene just went up in smoke, Alice … 😆
What concerned me was that Michael told Dean that GOD is the one who wants this battle to take place, for Michael and Lucifer to battle each other and for the older brother to kill the younger.
Why would GOD want such a thing? They are his sons! Even though one of them went rogue, would he really want him to die? And aside from that, Cas has been searching for God, who seems to be MIA, anyway, leaving the idiot angels in charge!
Personally, I hope God comes back, and, like John, is so pissed off at the behavior of ALL his children, he “turns the car around” and sends all of them to jail except Castiel. He gives him a promotion, anything he wants, and what Cas wants is to free the Winchesters from this ridiculous DESTINY of theirs!
God gives the GOOD angel what he wants, restores his powers, and the Winchester brothers are free to return to earth to pursue their lives. Unfortunately, Michael and Lucifer have escaped vowing to cause as much trouble on earth as possible, and Dean, Sam and Castiel realize they still have work to do, leading us to season 6 on SUPERNATURAL.
Love, Robin
I loved it! The best of S5 so far. It was the kinda eppie that ends too soon. At the first views end I was like “What? That can’t bee 42 minutes allready!!” And then at the end of my second view, and third. You see a pattern here? 🙂
I adored every bit of it. Esp. Sams face when he meets John&Mary, John&Mary together, Sams talk with John (so cried on that one) and Deans talk with Mary. I loved how freaked out Mary looked over Sam staring!! Michael was all oozing of power and superiority. I hope he and Lucky will have to can their “free will is an illusion” -attitude in the end. I’ll join y’all with: GO TEAM FREEWILL!!! *shakes pompoms or what-ever* *grin*
Alright Suze, I wrote that one down and now we just need to contact Hasbro with our ideas. Maybe they can create a Mr. Cass-Head and change his visage based on his sentiment at the time, Aloof Cas, Comatose Cas, Drugged-out Orgy Cas, Mr. Cass-Head faces sold separately!
😆 Yippee! Our fortunes are assured … I’ll order those platinum-plated polo ponies right away.
I kind of gave up the show and also this site, cause, well, with all the respect, this constantly raising devotion-level here and all the writers patting each other on the shoulder _under every single article_ made me feel like an evil unwanted outsider.
Honestly, I just did not care enough to download 5.12. But one of my favorites from livejournal wrote that 5.13 was awesome, so I watched, and hell, it was.
Great, just great.
What I was missing in 5.11 was all there.
So, where can I share my happy feelings?
And here I am again!
I think Sam is less pretty post 5.10 than he was before.
But this is my only complaint.
I’m SO happy with this episode, it got drama and blood and emotion and it just could not be better. OMG, Uriel, my beloved Uriel was there! And young John’s skin on Michael was yummy.
Why are here only all kind of unhappy answers in the test? I’m SO glad for my show to be great again! The episode was like a party for me! LOVE it! LOOOOOVE IT!
Robin, If you read Paradise Lost and the Revelation, God and his angels are not nice people. The do want bloodshed and death, and those are the books Kripke has said he uses for his primary source material. I gave a small summation of the books in my latest article. I think it helps explain Michael’s comments ALL TOO WELL! :cry::
Welcome back vana naine, Sorry you felt unwanted. All of us here are just having fun with our show, and we always like comments from everyone. Constructive criticism is always welcome. Hope you stay around for a while.
vana, it’s ’cause we’re so awesome. Seriously, we just dig each other’s work. I won’t presume to speak for others, but if you think I’m full of shit, tell me. I’ll tell you that you’re wrong, but that’s alright. 😎