Promotional Photos for Supernatural Episode 11.10
Finally, Hellatus is almost over! We have pictures for the next episode!
Wow! This looks exciting. Crowley and Rowena. Crowley gets the upper hand on Rowena then Dean gets in on the action. Castiel is in Hell. Dean is in the Cage with Sam. Cas is in the Cage with Lucifer and Dean. Lucifer attacks Dean. Lucifer gets in Cas’s personal space. We are getting a lot of Cage time and Lucifer time. Are you excited about these pictures? What conclusions do you have after seeing them? Let us know in the comments or in the discussion thread for episode 10.
Really cant wait for this episode. After seeing these pics it looks to be “hold on to the edge of your seat” suspense. The whole cast looks to be having a party in the cage… lol . Nate you have a lot to chose from for Caption This … personally I like the one with Rowena on a leash with Crowley and Dean looking on … that would have some explaining to do.
Yes, I am please to see the pictures on episode 10. I am so so happy to Dean go after Sam to see them. Both in the cage together tells me one thing Dean does love his brother to the point that he will follow Sam to hell to get him back. So yes I am please
WOW this looks great and Dean & Cas in the cage rescuing Sam fanfrigintastic sooooooooooo excited
So what was Sam,s story with Lucifer meant to be then?
Unless there’s more to Sam’s visions and faith storyline, it could be the show’s mean-spirited way of confirming that there is no ‘Light in the Fight’ anymore besides Sam and Dean, and ‘Supernatural God is either dead’, or worse, feeling his sister’s destructive release is ‘not his problem’ again. I don’t [i]feel[/i]’ that … there have been too many characters saying ‘don’t count on ‘God’/he’s never been with you’ for this theme to be just dropped. I’m not saying ‘the Big Burrito’ will make a personal appearance this season but there have been enough dialog hints – both supporting and denying – that ‘God/powerful Rep from the Light’ either has been working in the background or will reveal itself either subtly or directly before the season’s end.
Unfortunately, as set up, it would confirm that the only light in the show is DEAN, because Sam is a stupid idiot who thinks that anything good would even consider relating to him. I’m also concerned by the way the narrative is leaning in regard to Amara. We are already getting the statement that she is only trying to reach God. that eating the souls doesn’t destroy them but that they are part of her, allowing for the potential to return them all to the people she removed them from, so no harm, no foul. Certainly there has been little concern for the people she has killed and the implication that it is all God’s fault for ignoring her. Wiping out angels and thousands of people have always been totally forgivable, at least when Cas did it as an overpowered godlike creature. I’m terrible afraid we are moving toward Sam being wrong to try to save people’s lives, stupid for believing help might be out there and borderline evil for wanting to stop Amara.
Frankly, I’ve been burned by years of Dean POV and Sam’s every choice being demonized, so I’m really nervous about where this is heading. However, I’m willing to wait and see. The portrayal of Sam this season has been positive and we actually have gotten some Sam POV, so perhaps my concerns will turn out to be unwarranted, but I won’t feel good about it until the end of the season and we see where this is going.
Percysowner – I’ve been posting on several boards/twitter that I consider Amara no better than a terrorist, fully aware of the negative impact she’s having on God’s Creation and not giving a (mud-colored expletive). I can’t see why some fans are continuing to defend her actions.
Yes, I’m trying hard to make at least some sense out of the way spend so many episodes (11.02-11.09) with Sam’s faith in the forefront only for show to deliberately show that Stupid/Pride-fueled Sam was only being duped again and that’s the end of it’ except for believing that there was ‘No God except Dean-as-God’. Even Dean sounded vaguely hopeful, yet fearful near the end of 11.06 that ‘God’ had given Sam some clues, and that’s decidedly un-Dean-like. He was even willing to support Sam’s attempts to speak to Lucifer although he rationally made no bones about his fear of Sam getting anywhere near the Cage and Lucifer.
The simple fact that Dean was willing to put aside all his doubts about ‘God’ legitimately communicating with Sam leads me to ‘believe’ there’s more to Sam’s storyline than Sam being fooled again. Plus Jared was excited about both 11.09 and 11.10 and [i]I don’t feel [/i] he’d be as excited by a ‘Cas and Dean have to rescue that idiot Sam again storyline’ :p and have no other payoff for ‘Sam’.
I know this sounds naïve but the season has been better balanced story-wise than it has been in years and hope that continues through this season at least.
I am gradually coming to realize that for Jared ‘These are great episodes’ means that he had a ball filming them and likes being included in the action 😀 (Jensen too but Jensen is more reliably central to each story and gets more reliably positive storylines for his character – like ‘Baby’). Jared likes being challenged as an actor – and it does pay off when he is allowed the opportunity – so it is possible he enjoyed the big emotional scenes, and we know he enjoys playing Lucifer, so I am horribly afraid …
Really I guess they all must be aware that the show’s storyline is being written episode-to-episode now with little reference to canon – like it’s the Twilight Zone or something.
[quote]Jared likes being challenged as an actor – and it does pay off when he is allowed the opportunity – so it is possible he enjoyed the big emotional scenes, and we know he enjoys playing Lucifer, so I am horribly afraid … [/quote]
Yep he enjoys playing his ‘Alt Versions’ and does a great job! Also deep, emotional scenes that JP does very well when he gets them. I doubt Jared will emerge the temp cage as LuciferSam again. Not with the slew of MoTWs to come – not that MoTW can have no connection to mytharcs because they often do. Worse case scenario as a JP/Sam fan is that the show allows canon busting for Castiel to say Yes and Cassifer will come out of the temp cage. I hate that thought but it’s possible from the some of the spoilers.
I could see Cassifer not being the worst storyline ever TBH. I think Misha could carry it off. It’s not like they could fix it down the road with yet another poor imitation of the legendary Swan Song moment, because they already did that in whatever that episode was where they killed Meg (A character that Cas genuinely DID have a spark with). I think Cas could agree to leave and let Lucifer take over since we have been told that Jimmy is no longer in there (I think), Anyway Cas doesn’t need to be there for Lucifer to take over, in fact it would make sense for Lucifer to insist he leave. Possibly. Unless Jimmy IS still in there in which case he would have to agree as well ….
Does anyone know if we have been told for sure the situation with Jimmy?
My problem is the REASON why he would do it … I would like it to be something that Sam absolutely didn’t want him to do.
Jimmy was last seen greeting his wife in their shared heaven. Did you skip that ep? :p
In fact I did. And I am very happy with that decision and I am currently buying an Impala. 😀 OK right then, Casifer it is.
Actually Cas could be in heaven actually stuck there and forced to be involved with sorting out, say, the problem with the veil. Like the angels would find him harder to kill in heaven wouldn’t they … oh no actually they wouldn’t … but maybe they would need him to try to un-Lucifer his meatsuit?
He could help out Bobby too. They could go on the lam together!
Can that even happen? Isn’t Sam of the “lineage” to take on Lucifer the same way Dean is meant for Michael? Who’s to say jimmy novack’s meat suit would be suitable at all? Nick could barely contain lucifer, so jimmy probably couldn’t do much better, especially considering that he’s just a soulless shell and not really a person any more at all. If we suddenly get Casifer or lucstiel or whatever, I am going to be pretty disappointed… what would the first five season have been about if any old cast off meat suit will do?
That is a good point, I have to agree. But the only other being (possibly) currently short of a meatsuit is Amara… and Cas does seem to be in for some trouble with someone.
Well they did establish that Jimmy was killed one of the times his body was exploded by an archangel, although we don’t know if it was when Raphael exploded him when he was with Chuck or when Lucifer exploded him at Stull Cemetery. Plus we were told that Anna got her body remade “by an old friend” after she got her grace back and that body exploded. So something in the universe has the ability to make angel vessels from scratch and Cas is currently inhabiting a made from scratch body. So they can hand wave that this reconstituted body is strong enough to hold Lucifer because it was made to hold a generic angel and is not reliant on a bloodline. Cas’s body is the type O negative of angel vessels, the universal donor.
God I hope not. What a way to rewrite the entire history of the show. Really hoping it does not go there. And besides….. Cas as Lucifer? Nope. If Jared ins’t going to play him I want Mark P.
I feel the same way E. I want Cas to have a decent story, just not this one. Lucifer should be played by mark P or Jared. Period.
It seems very tense. Can’t wait.
– Lilah
I think the person Cas is advertising on his “chest billboard” who claims to be coming is actually John Cena and when he gets there he’s going to kick all their asses and then become the New, New, New God. Of wrestling. Because John Cena doesn’t care about all their petty squabbles. He’s a busy man. 😉
SUPERNATURAL 11.10 “The Devil in the Details”: Now that he has Sam (Jared Padalecki) in the cage with him, Lucifer (guest star Mark Pellegrino) offers Sam a way out but it comes with a steep price —-
Well that answer could have something to do with saving Dean ?? I’m glad Dean has gone to hell with Cas to Help Sam. Although we were hoping this may have been a save yourself Sam situation it looks like Dean to the rescue again. I guess thats what big brothers are for. The photos look great the lighting on Dean & Sam really is beautiful for a dark horrid place. Looks like they have chained up ROWENNA AGAIN
Thats getting boring — since she was introduced Row hasn’t been to scary, I wish they would decide what to do with her Other than that the photos only show us a snippet of the episode What you think 10 -15 min of the show so I’m guessing Sam tells Dean about Billie ?? Why does Dean need to see Billie There also is the “I’m coming” on Cas’s chest so Ep10 could be a full and informative episode
Interesting! My first thought on seeing picture 10 was “Sam looks like he’s in a daze, possibly in a vision where he’s being tortured” Its not exactly the same wounds but similar, pause when you get to Sam’s face https://youtu.be/j7mjaXxmVRM?t=10 (I’m still waiting for that footage! Unless it’s just unused 🙁 )
The 12th picture looks like Dean snapping him out of it.
Wrong
s
From what is shown I’m not impressed. I doubt I will want to watch the story about Dean and Cas who have to rescue silly and bothersome little Sammy. It seems to be an attempt to rewrite the history completely erasing from viewers’ memory the fact, that it was Sam who once defeated the Devil, not Dean and not Cas.
Disgruntled, I’m with you on this. These pictures bother me for a number of reasons, the biggest one being where the hell is Sam in the ep? If he spends most of the ep in a stupor while all of the action swirls around him as Dean and Cas work to save him that will be infuriating. While I was really hoping that Sam would play the major role in his own rescue, I could accept that he needs some assistance from Dean and Cas. In fact, I’ve been hoping for a long time to see the Dean who will move heaven and earth to rescue his Sammy. It’s been quite awhile and it’s the one thing that will cement (in my mind anyway) that the brothers’ relationship has been repaired after all of the crap between them the last two seasons. But if Sam is to be lying there helplessly until his saviors come charging in, the same Sam who has proven himself stronger than Lucy in the past, that will undermine most of what Sam has said and done this season. He finally once again seems like the strong, competent, determined and SMART hunter we met in S1, rather than the more recent Sam who has been endlessly outmatched, outwitted, and tied up, waiting passively for rescue by others. I’m pinning my hopes on the fact that the promo pics have been misleading in the past, and that perhaps they are only telling one small part of the story we will see in the ep. I also am relying on the fact that Dabb has done a great job of writing Sam in his last bunch of eps, and that he would not suddenly sideline him in this ep. I guess we’ll find out in a week.
I was hoping on Sam defeating the Devil without help, he defeated the Devil with the help of the same persons excluding the Impala 😀 So, what’s the point of the repetition? But if they show that this time Sam is unable to do what he was able to do in the past, it will mean the complete rewriting of the character.
[quote] he defeated the Devil with the help of the same persons excluding the Impala :D[/quote]
I’m sure the impala would have been in the cage as well, but that would seem even more ludicrous than having Dean and Cas there. 🙂 Because that is one other thing that bothers me about the pics. The cage is starting to seem much like the bunker, in that an ostensibly impregnable place is suddenly being overrun by any Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to get in. It actually reminds me of how the ability of rogue reapers to get in and out of purgatory at will completely undermined the whole premise of S6, that purgatory was shrouded in mystery and completely inaccessible unless you completed an elaborate, difficult ritual. Similarly, the speed and relative ease with which the characters have been able to access Lucifer and the cage undermines everything from the first five seasons pertaining to the cage and the idea that it was virtually impossible to gain access to it. As powerful and brilliant as he is, Lucifer should have been able to waltz out of there tout suite!
Hey Guys take a breath slooooowwwwwwwwww down. Its NOT THE REAL CAGE its the cage Rowenna set up for the meeting There maybe some magic attached to stop Lucy getting out but its fake !!!!!
Remember we are only seeing say 10 -15min of the show. There is no possible way Sam could get out on his own his human (No demon Blood) and Cas & Dean being there to help makes sense I’m sure there will be some Sam torture but what he went through mentally last time he would be terrified and phisically well thoughts on that one. Nah I don’t think he sits there all sappy Lucy has probably been working on him for awhile before C & D get there, Sam will hold his own Dean will just come to help — Will Sam say Yes to Lucy maybe not now but later thats what I would be worried about
[quote]There maybe some magic attached to stop Lucy getting out but its fake !!!!![/quote]
That’s partly what bothers me Jen. The show was pretty vague about how there is some relatively simple spell that could transport Lucifer OUT of the real cage (which still seems ridiculous to me) and into a fake cage where mere warding would prevent Lucy from utilizing his powers. And indeed, Lucifer was more powerful than the warding (maybe because Rowena intended that to happen) and was able to use his powers to pull Sam in. Now, somehow Cas and Dean are able to get into the fake cage, which is apparently easy as pie. So if Lucifer is able to exercise at least some of his powers, and the cage is accessible to other people, it defies belief that Lucifer couldn’t easily engineer his escape from the fake cage. Maybe some logical, credible explanation for the parameters of this whole “fake cage” deal will be forthcoming, such as that it’s not actually Lucy in the fake cage but rather a representation of him(though how he would then have power I have no idea) but I’m not holding my breath. 🙂 Please prove me wrong show!
Agree at times they seem to be making it up as they go Why would Lucy bother with all this if he could just walk out
Just had a thought the cage is possibly useless I would say the only thing keeping him in is a vessel he just can’t go anywhere without one Sam is obviously locked in or cant get past Lucy That would make more sense. That would be why he is so desperate to get Sam to say yes. So D & C can get in and the impala and anybody else
well apparently he’s still in Nick and Nicks is looking way more whole and complete than he did in season 5, so if Luci can just go topside, why doesn’t he? What’s he waiting around for Sam for?
He isn’t in Nick. He is a pillar of smoke:
[quote]Lucifer: And, I need a ride out of here. I mean, I look swell in here and everything, but I’d be so much smoke top-side.
Sam: You want a vessel?
Lucifer: One who is strong enough to hold me, handy and available now. Catch my drift?[/quote]
Ah. I tend to miss these things in Ross-Leming/Bruckner episodes because they try so hard to be “clever” in their line delivery. Most of the time I tune what the characters are saying out, because they never just actually SAY it.
Lucifer did say that which doesn’t make sense. Lucifer is fallen but he’s still an Archangel. He wouldn’t be demon smoke. And if the writers were thinking because of the time he’s spent in Hell that his soul has become corrupted and he is a demon then that’s crap for two different reasons: One, angels have no soul and Two, if that’s so then why isn’t Lucifer just taking Sam’s vessel (as per Demon rules) as opposed to asking for permission, as per Angel rules.
I agree Alycat. It was among the many logic gaps that annoyed me about the ep. the Lucifer who was originally thrown in the cage, and subsequently released from the cage, was in his angelic form. He escaped as a bright, loud celestial being. So why does he need a meatsuit to escape? And if the mere possession of a meatsuit were enough to enable him to escape, he should have been able to do so long ago. what a waste of time breaking all of those seals, when all Lilith had to do was use a spell to transport him to a fake cage and then convince some meatsuit (like poor Nick) into letting Lucy take him for a test drive. This type of canon bashing makes me crazy since it completely undermines the premise of S. 4 and 5. Maybe they will explain all of this to our satisfaction in the next ep!;)
We didn’t see him escape the first time? And we didn’t see him at all until he took over Nick. Sam and Dean were extricated at the last minute onto the plane. What is the difference between being a beam of smoky light and a load of smoke? He needs a body to interact with the world (apparently).
It is going to be interesting to see HOW Sam gets injured in the cage since by all current logic Lucifer is not really there.
[quote]We didn’t see him escape the first time?[/quote]
I kind of thought we did. In Lucifer Rising as the fissures appeared in the floor we saw a very bright light start appearing and heard that incredibly loud noise. This fits with when the brothers had to shield themselves from the bright light when Anna reacquired her grace, as well as when Cas did so. It also fit with the loud, painful sound when Cas tried to communicate with Dean in his angelic form. So the extreme brightness of the light coming form the pit (and this just through the cracks) as well as that horrific noise, fits with Lucifer being in angelic form in the pit. Presumably an archangel would have the brightest and loudest effects. Besides, whose meatsuit would he have been in? He was thrown into the pit shortly after the Cain and Abel business, I assume, and that left around two other meatsuits that he could have possessed. Now what were the names of Cain and Abel’s parents? IMO, by all logic Lucy was a ball of light and energy in the pit the first time. Though it would have been funny for Sam and Dean to see him climb out of that ring of light as some primitive human, had they not been pulled out of there by God. 😀
[quote]It is going to be interesting to see HOW Sam gets injured in the cage since by all current logic Lucifer is not really there.[/quote]
Yep, I’m looking forward to the explanation for all of this.
We seem to be agreeing with each other now … you were asking before why he needs a meatsuit to escape and the answer is he doesn’t. However it is probably easier for him to communicate with Sam in a non-reality landscape like limbo rather than hanging around without a body at all on earth. It seems to me that there is a whole segment of Lucifer’s escaping plot that we don’t know about yet.
The other point is that now, with the removal of the MOC / release of the Darkness, the cage is damaged. When everyone worked together previously to release Lucifer (hah, do you see what I did there writers? Canon CAN be reduced to a single sentence without changing it), it wasn’t. Maybe Lucifer can now escape a different way?
He could call a taxi possibly.
[quote] the cage is damaged.[/quote]
OK, they can explain a lot of the cage crap if they attribute it to the damage it sustained. And I like the taxi idea. Then at least they will be consistent with the anti-canon they created in Taxi Driver! Adherence to anti-canon is better than creation of yet more anti-canon, right? I must be tired because even I don’t understand what I just typed. 😉
Canon plus anti-canon equals?
To find out if intermingling of canon and anti canon has destroyed the (SPN) universe yet click here. ([url]”http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/”[/url])
Actually I am not convinced that website is correct … here, have a gif instead:
How easy is it to get to hell? This easy!:
[img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/74f1eb6ef28977f2d691dbbef9fec4ef/tumblr_mkpmbjFJ401qin6gqo1_r1_500.gif [/img]
[img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/79332620f4ff8021931458798d98f90c/tumblr_mkpmbjFJ401qin6gqo2_r1_500.gif [/img]
(Taxi-driver gifs – guaranteed to make BoGirlie’s head explode with the power of anti-canon)
First, thanks for suckering me into clicking on the first link (although it made me laugh!).
Second, it would be worth a trip to purgatory if I got to hold Sam’s hand.:)
Third, please don’t explode E’s head. (But I do get a kick out of her almost pathological hatred of Taxi Driver- an ep which I liked despite its many flaws. SORRY E!! please don’t lose all respect for me!)
Taxi Driver is the devil… the root of all that is wrong in the world. hate, Hate, HATE that episode. And just WHAT is happening in that second gif? It seems to me that Jared is somewhat uncomfortable. Can it be me that makes Jared uncomfortable next time? I want to hold his hand and make him uncomfortable too. OK, I digress. S&D, I find it ironic that you are irritated by the lack of logic in this episode, but Taxi Driver doesn’t bother you? ?????:o …does not compute…..:o:o:p ??????
OK. Back to hating Taxi Driver now.
Southern Comfort
The Mentalists
Freaks and Geeks
Rock and a Hard Place
Sharp Teeth
Bloodlines(!)
The Things they carried
Actually the logic/canon issues in TD did bother me, but I greatly enjoyed Sam being competent and heroic and essential to the plot, and I loved the bro hug at the end. It was an awesome one. It takes so little to make me happy.:)
UBER. 🙂
Lucifer isn’t demon smoke. He is without form. He used the term smoke to describe that in order to move around on earth he needs a vessel. But the writers I don’t believe were insinuating that Lucifer was a demon. Just that he needed Sam or whoever to be his vessel. He still needed permission. Something demons don’t need.
Oh, I don’t think he’s demon smoke Cheryl. I think he should actually be in his angelic form at this time since Sam’s body was rescued from the cage. So maybe he’s projecting Nick’s image? Still not clear on what exactly is IN the cage with Sam. I truly hope they explain it in a way that makes sense, because right now I’m quite confused. Although truthfully that’s becoming the case more and more as I get older! 😉
It is Arch Angel Lucifer (the real one in THIS CAGE) He can and will phisically and mentally destroy Sam :o:o:o
They are using Nick to portray Lucifer because A) Thats Mark Paligrino & B) Nick is the last person we associate the character with. Other than that we wouldn’t see / hear or feel Lucy. Remember as SD said when Cas was first introduced a human being (except a special one like Cas’s vessel) can’t tolerate the voice or angel form of a Angel. So for the writers they have gone back to the original Arch Angel Lucifer (Nick, Mark) so we can associate again with the character. I believe Lucy can leave the cage but it would result in acheiving nothing. Because mere humans won’t see him or he phisically won’t be able to do anything. Because like Cas until he took a vessel, Cas was a very loud noise & a strong bright light. Cas explained all this to Dean in Lazarus rising.
The temporay cage is not holding Lucifer — Lucifer just can’t leave without a vessel. this is why he lurid Sam to hell either through fissures in the original cage or also with the help of Rowenna
And then there’s me rubbing my hands in glee at a tortured Sam. :p
Hey, I’m the last one who wants to deprive you of a tortured Sam, but please can he at least help effect his own rescue after said torture?:)
I’d allow that :p
Me too….. love me some tortured Sammy.
I would say that you and YES are sick, twisted individuals, but that would make me the pot and you two the kettles!:)
And I’m PROUD of it haha xD (disclaimer: I’m really a sweet person irl 0=) )
You’re my new best friend :p
Thank you! I love all manner of tortured, tied up, unconscious and incapacitated Sam. :p:p
I agree with samandean and disgruntled; I had really hoped that Sam would get out of this on his own. I don’t mind him having help….that’s what brothers do after all, but Sam looks like he’s just sitting there in a stupor. Hoping against hope that Dabb has something interesting planned. If Sam went to the cage, made some terrible deal with Lucifer that will haunt him and everyone else for the rest of the season and is then rescued by his brother then what was the point of this whole endeavor? Hopefully Sam will at the very least learn something completely crucial about TheD from Luci which will make his going to the cage have some kind of relevance as opposed to driving home the notion that Sam cannot and should not make any kind of autonomous decisions ever.
So once again Sam can’t do anything right and has to be saved from himself. This sucks out loud.
thank you, i agree with everything also *agree with disgruntled viewer and samanddean10* other than that confused by the pics*
[quote]Hopefully Sam will at the very least learn something completely crucial about TheD from Luci which will make his going to the cage have some kind of relevance as opposed to driving home the notion that Sam cannot and should not make any kind of autonomous decisions ever.[/quote]
I totally agree! Something positive has to come out of the whole ‘stupid Sam, tricked again’ for the entirety of the ‘Sam’s visions’ arc to be even remotely satisfying. Dean may not be ready to hear Sam’s (theoretical) information yet. For example, while Lucifer’s is tormenting or tempting Sam, he might let slip even a partial clue of how God and the Archangels confined The Darkness in the first place.
God I hope so…. I would hate to think that the writers spent all this time laying the ground work for this storyline only to go “psych! You moron Sam! Dean TOLD you!” but they’ve done that before on numerous occasions so I wouldn’t put it past them. BUT…. things do seem better, more cohesive and more even handed this year. I am attributing it to several things… Singer stepping down, Glass (an avowed Dean freak) leaving the writing staff and Dabb taking over. It seems that opinions about Dabb are very high, I’ve heard compliments about him dropped by the cast pretty much every chance they get when they are discussing him. So, here’s to a more balanced, even, interesting story line that does not hang either brother (or Cas for that matter) out to dry. 😉
[quote]The cage is starting to seem much like the bunker, in that an ostensibly impregnable place is suddenly being overrun by any Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to get in[/quote]
More like a seedy motel 😀
[quote]I’m sure the impala would have been in the cage as well[/quote]
:DI suggest launching a twitter compaign like Destiel fans like doing WhereisImpala:D
I suggest launching a Twitter campaign as well CasHitaDog
The pictures don’t give much reason for optimism but I’ll take a wait and see approach on this one. They better give a good reason for Castiel’s absence in the last episode. The Samsel in distress thing has been beaten like a dead horse so I hope Andrew Dabb has a few tricks up his sleeve, otherwise it will be same old shit, different day.
The only hope is they just can’t spoiler the episode in such a major way
I will apologize in advance and this can be removed if it is an inappropriate spot for this but this must be watched it is too hysterical for words.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vphPggFiXkc[/video]
Well, it fits to the previous episode and this and it is bloody brilliant. 🙂
– Lilah
It is a great way to start the morning isn’t it?:D
http://theoverlordmisha.tumblr.com/post/137128369024/part-1-part-2 the other version.
Cheryl, this cracked me up, especially because Jared was acting so serious while Jensen couldn’t stop laughing. I love these kinds of clips.
What is Jensen saying? I can’t quite understand him. This is hilarious BTW. Is this Jared’s Mark Sheppard impersonation?
Jensen is playing Sam’s ‘one line you have in this scene’ and Jared is playing both Crowley AND Rowena 😀
I hope they take the “we’re better together than apart” approach with this one. I’m all for Sam getting out of bad stuff on his own, but I wouldn’t mind seeing Dean (and Cas) try to tear hell apart to get to him. And I think we have to remember that the Sam who defeated Lucifer did not have the baggage and memories that season 11 Sam has.
[quote]And I think we have to remember that the Sam who defeated Lucifer did not have the baggage and memories that season 11 Sam has.[/quote]
You mean he had an amazing evolution of the character, got stronger and more balanced and more sure of himself? 🙂 On the other hand, I can’t imagine any means which Dean and Cas could use to defeat Luci, except they will come up with some cleansing powder or an old bone. 🙂
Yes, he was stronger in season 5. I feel like he really grew up that season, but 6,7,8, and 9 all showed how his experience with Lucifer changed him. Soulless, plagued by visions of Lucifer and unsure of reality, trial-affected, angel possessed….personally, I think his resolve in season 10 to save Dean was the first time he was even close to being the same man who jumped into the pit. His time before in the cage with Lucifer and everything that happened afterwards obviously affected him. I don’t think it’s necessary for him to save himself in this situation, but i hope that the writers will show us a Sam who comes out of this cage stronger, not weaker. And I want a brother hug too!
[quote]Yes, he was stronger in season 5[/quote]
That was irony. And I meant that he became stronger during and especially after season 5. You underestimate the true meaning of his concious decision to take in his memories of Hell and his strength to cope with them, and he made a concious decision to give in to his insanity and his hallucinations only to save Dean. Everybody was struck that he was even vertical after Castiel had broken the wall, even Death thought it was impossible, though he was sure that Sam had the strengh to overpower Lucifer. And he started to return his confidence during season 8, which he lost after his mistake with Lilith. He found the inner balance, he is not confliced anymore. He knows his strenghts and his weaknesses and learned how to balance the second with the first. Now in season 11 he is stronger than ever before.
I agree to some extent. The Sam who defeated Lucifer in S5 was pumped full of demon blood and it was kind of a hail mary kind of play. It took Dean’s love, Castiel’s holy oil Molotov Cocktail and army men to give Dean time to get through to Sam in the end. He didn’t do it alone. TFW came to his rescue.
I’m not sure what Sam is supposed to do in order to fight his way out of the cage and Lucifer’s grasp. He isn’t super charged with anything and he isn’t going to agree to become a vessel in order to fight Lucifer from the inside out. I say yes to Dean and Cas tearing Hell apart to rescue Sam. Sam deserves it! Also it sounds like Sam is being offered a way out that may or may not be a way to defeat the Darkness. He may make a desperate decision in this episode or later down the road.
Do you really think that demon blood helped Sam? It could serve only to strengthen his body preventing him from combustion, nothing more. Demon blood doesn’t strenthen the will, it weakens it. Or what was the point to struggle with it, if it’s such a good thing?
But you helped me to understand something about the plot though. Now I think Sam will defeat Luci. 😉 And remember that I predicted the direction Sam” character development will go in summer hiatus.
And I hope you understand the difference between being offered a deal and making a deal?
You are correct the demon blood strengthened his vessel but as we saw when he downed 4 gallons of it the affect was also to make Sam more confident as well as stronger physically. And as we saw all season 4 Sam was being tricked into believing he was doing the right thing (as was Dean). I never saw Sam as being weak only duped (again as was Dean).
Nick was dissolving, Sam needed every ounce of strength physically and emotionally to defeat Lucifer. The demon blood definitely helped greatly. He also needed the help of everyone he loved. I still don’t see how Sam, while in the cage alone with no way to defend himself is supposed to somehow overpower Lucifer and escape all by himself. He couldn’t before. It took a God resurrected Castiel and then Death himself to rescue him the last time. No I personally want to see Dean and Cas destroy Hell if they have to in order to save Sam.
Amazing as it might seem I do know the difference between making a deal and being offered one.
[quote] I still don’t see how Sam, while in the cage alone with no way to defend himself is supposed to somehow overpower Lucifer and escape all by himself.[/quote]
Cheryl, I am not asking for Sam to overpower Lucifer. But I am hoping that Sam will receive some divine assistance, and some confirmation that he was right to place his faith in God, which will enable him to remain strong and outwit Lucifer in some manner. This is a different, and in my opinion stronger, Sam than in S 5. That Sam sacrificed himself out of the perceived need for redemption, because he erroneously believed that he bore the sole blame for freeing Lucifer. S11 Sam has been through so much since then, and has a newfound determination to return to the original mission of saving people. He suffered what is arguably the worst experience a person could suffer- the equivalent of hundreds of years of torture at Lucifer’s hands, and yet amazingly he has somehow found the strength to revisit the scene of his torment. That seems to be his character arc this year, and it has been wonderfully developed in many of the episodes, such as Just My Imagination. So while I love the idea that Dean and Cas will storm the cage in an effort to free Sam, I hate the thought that Sam will merely be the passive recipient of this help. As much as it is seemingly impossible for Sam to overpower Lucifer and escape, it is equally impossible for Dean and Cas to somehow overpower Lucy. That was the whole point of Sam’s sacrifice in SS, that there was literally no other way to defeat Lucy. So how could Dean and Cas suddenly have the wherewithal to do it now? I infinitely prefer that they render Sam some assistance, but that ultimately Sam be the one who comes up with a way out of his predicament, preferably with some essential information about Amara. If Sam was strong enough (with Dean’s assistance, of course) to mentally overpower Lucy in SS, I think this stronger Sam is capable of somehow overcoming Lucifer, even if it’s through trickery of some sort.
I do agree that there might be an epic bro-hug in the near future!
[quote] I am hoping that Sam will receive some divine assistance, and some confirmation that he was right to place his faith in God, which will enable him to remain strong and outwit Lucifer in some manner. This is a different, and in my opinion stronger, Sam than in S 5.[/quote]
I agree with all aspects of this post. I just highlighted the part that states my strongest hope. Well stated!!!
Cheryl, like you know I see things differently than most of the people on these boards and sometimes my view is quite freaky. I am with you with Dean and Cas coming to save Sam. The brothers have never been able to trust the supernatural for divine intervention but they could with family. Dean and Cas how they are now they will turn everything upside down to get to Sam. BUT! I see it strength that Sam holds on until they get there. I mean he is in a cage with Lucy for crying out loud… If he can hold on until the cavalry arrives that is strength in my eyes. At least from the elevator with the clown he had a way out and Lucy is x1000000 worse than that. And like you I actually like Dean and Cas coming to the rescue like family and friends should. Plus, I am one of those people that don’t like the God of Supernatural much nor have faith on him. The Winchesters can handle it on their own with Cas. 😉
– Lilah
[quote]Plus, I am one of those people that don’t like the God of Supernatural much nor have faith on him. The Winchesters can handle it on their own with Cas. ;)[/quote]
Lilah, I’m certainly not saying that I think that God will reach down from on high and pull Sam out of the cage. I’m more hoping for another vision or sign that will confirm to Sam that Lucifer was NOT the source of all of the visions. And I’m hoping that such a vision or sign will give Sam the added strength to help him not just survive this ordeal, but to help him escape it. After all, while the Winchesters deserve almost all of the credit for putting Lucifer back in the cage, God DID in fact give them little bits of help along the way. If you are right and God plays absolutely no hand in the events of this season, that means Sam was a gullible fool to have placed his faith in him and hatched this plan, kind of like when he trusted Ruby. And that thought ticks me off. So yes, while I’m all for Dean and Cas rendering some assistance to Sam, if Sam’s sole role is to survive until they get there, I will be extremely disappointed.
Me too….. agreed S&D! If Sam’s role was to get duped by Lucifer (again) and make some kind of shady deal (again) then what was the point of his visions to begin with? To set him up and slap him down (again?) to show him that he must never disagree with Dean ever? Something constructive MUST come out of Sam’s current situation or the entire season so far will be a wast of time as far as Sam as a character is concerned. IT will mean that the writers simply spent all this time and all this character development to st Sam up for a fall… and for what reason? I agree with S&D… this entire set up has to be used constructively or Sam as a character is done; he can just follow his brother around like a kicked puppy and not make any kind of autonomous decisions because season 11 will have proved that he’s incapable of doing so.
As Sam doesn’t know any spells nor I see it not humanly possible for him to get out of the cage I just will agree to disagree. I seem to see his strength in the situation even if others don’t and how fighting to survive against Lucy is pretty big deal… All I have seen keeps me exited to see the episode.
– Lilah
[quote]As Sam doesn’t know any spells nor I see it not humanly possible for him to get out of the cage[/quote]I do not think anyone is saying about a spell juct an acknowledgement from god that it was him who contacted Sam.And Sam’s trip to the faux cage leads to SAM learning something.
Exactly!
I do not think Team Faith has to be diametrically opposed to Team Free Will. As stated by our mysterious visitor in the form of Young John (hopefully Gabriel resurrected)….. God Helps Those Who Help Themselves.
[quote]I do not think Team Faith has to be diametrically opposed to Team Free Will.[/quote]
I agree. It certainly seems to be an “all hands on deck” situation. 🙂 My only fear is that Sam will be the only one NOT actively involved in his own rescue.
Yes, I hope Team Faith is exactly what you stated …. that Sam receives another vision or sign that will confirm to Sam that Lucifer was NOT the source of all of the visions and it will give Sam the added strength to help him not just survive this ordeal, but to help him escape it using his own strength and wit.
[quote]he affect was also to make Sam more confident as well as stronger physically.[/quote]
I strongly disagree with that. it would be illogical. So you think that Ruby fed him with demon blood for him to be more sure of himself and be more strong-willed? it makes no sense. Moreover, we saw other children with demon blood and we saw how almost all of them except Sam and Andy turned evil, though Ava and Jake had been good people and gave in. Only Sam’s level of resistance and his strong will allowed him not to give in and overpower the demon blood incide him. His confidence rooted in his conviction that he was right, that’s all. And he was quite confident before, Geez he had the strength to stand up to his father, which Dean was unable to do. And you are saying, that his confidence rooted in his drinking demon blood? He lost his confidence because of his fiasco with Lilith, not because he stopped drinking demon blood. After that, he doubted that he was able to take the right decision, because of that one mistake.
[quote]The demon blood definitely helped greatly[/quote]
You know, it always puzzled me. Why the true vessel of Lucifer needed demon blood to keep his body strong? It may be logical for Nick, but it doesn’t make any sense with the true vessel. I always thought that Castiel saying that it was necessary was mistaken. And, you know, the last episode implied that I was right. Sam doesn’t drink demon blood, but Lucifer thinks that it is not a problem for Sam to be able to keep the fallen archangel. So, I don’t think that demon blood helped Sam, may be only to keep his body strong, but it was not a fight of bodies, it was a fight of wills. And I think demon blood hampered Sam’s victory, not helped it.
I certainly agree that Bobby, Castiel, Dean and Impala (!) helped Sam, and he couldn’t do that without their help. But it was Sam’s battle and Sam’s victory. He defeated Lucifer because of the strengh of his will and the strengh of his love for his family.
[quote]No I personally want to see Dean and Cas destroy Hell if they have to in order to save Sam.[/quote]
And what real means do they have to do that? Moreover it will devalue Sam’s victory and Sam’s sacrifice, it will negate the whole point of Kripke’s seasons.
[quote]I still don’t see how Sam, while in the cage alone with no way to defend himself is supposed to somehow overpower Lucifer[/quote]
In the same way he did that before by his inner strength. But I agree, that he won’t be able to escape the Cage without external help, like Rowena’s spell to jerk him out from the original Cage into the one which is in the Limb.
Everyone interprets the show in their own way I suppose. I saw it one way others saw it differently. Yes even back in the glory days of EK there were inconsistencies in the storytelling. I think Sam needed the demon blood to contain Lucifer because Lucifer had no intention of giving his vessel up. Michael was only going to use Dean’s body until he destroyed his brother then he was out and back to heaven. Michael had no love for humanity or God’s earth. Lucifer meant to rule it. But of course it wasn’t laid out in minute detail so I suppose fans sometimes had to fill in the blanks and not everyone agreed as to what those blanks should mean.
Right now we have no idea what Sam is or isn’t going to do. At almost all of the conventions last fall the J’s have said that the brothers are not going to be possessed by any supernatural force. That doesn’t mean they aren’t going to be influenced or manipulated (Amara and Lucifer) by good and evil. I am going to watch the story unfold and enjoy the ride. These few pictures and the couple of teasers really doesn’t tell us very much. I guess we will find out in a week.
[quote]Why the true vessel of Lucifer needed demon blood to keep his body strong? [/quote]A guess on my part.Maybe because Lucifer was changed fundamentally because of his hell/corruption.
I get your point cheryl, I’d just like to see the smart decision making that Sam has shown so far this season to stick. If he’s wrong again here, it’s too much like one step forward and two steps back for my liking. Sam has been allowed to make several crucial decisions so far this year and had things go right for a change, unlike in season 3 (not saving Dean) season 4 (demon blood/powers) season 6 (being soulless, which even though he wasn’t at fault, he still gets blamed for) season 8 (not looking for Dean) season 9 (not being grateful enough) and 10 (saving Dean; although how this can be construed as a mistake is beyond me, but there it is.). In Sam’s litany of “wrong” I’d like to see that him following his own instincts and making his own decisions (without getting Dean’s permission) isn’t necessarily a bad thing. So far that hasn’t worked out too well for him.
Sam wasn’t wrong here. He was tricked. Even Dean was on board with Sam’s plan. I can’t believe that Dean is going to chastise Sam for going ahead with the plan (specially when Dean didn’t answer his phone and time was inexplicably running out). I can’t wait to see this episode. Events are just humming right along. I love the pace so far.
Besides I see an epic hug in our future.
Yes, a nice bro hug is WELL overdue!! :p
Yes, but Sam was tricked in season 4 as well and that hasn’t stopped anyone from blaming Sam all the same, even the other characters on the show. I was just hoping that this time he wasn’t tricked into doing the wrong thing… the thing Dean told him NOT to do and that what he’s going through now is the RIGHT thing, the necessary thing.
[quote]I can’t believe that Dean is going to chastise Sam[/quote]I will wait and watch
I always thought that season Sam’s “baggage” and experiences is what is making him stronger than season 5 Sam, not weaker.
Do you really think that demon blood helped Sam? It could serve only to strengthen his body preventing him from combustion, nothing more. Demon blood doesn’t strenthen the will, it weakens it. Or what was the point to struggle with it, if it’s such a good thing?
But you helped me to understand something about the plot though. Now I think Sam will defeat Luci. 😉 And remember that I predicted the direction Sam” character development will go in summer hiatus.
And I hope you understand the difference between being offered a deal and making a deal?
Actually I was going to say the exact same thing. The demon blood made him more suitable FOR Lucifer and weakened his ability to fight him. The fact that he’s “clean” now makes him stronger.
I have been lurking on this for a while, but never posted… These photo disturbed me a bit, so I wanted to chime in.
I wish current SPN writers knew how to write for Sam and Dean. I feel like they butchered Sam’s character back in Season 8 (not looking for Dean in Purgatory), season 9 (The Purge, and the debacle that followed). Note to writers: Sam loves his brother. Sam is not dumb – Sam is smart!
I wish the SPN writers would stop afflicting Dean with some nonsense as an excuse that causes him to go off the rails (MoC, Amara influence). Where is the normal Dean of old? The MoC basically turned Dean into a serial killer, and who know what horrifying and regrettable consequences his connection with Amara will bring. Note to writers: When exploring the Amara storyline in the second half of the season, please remember that Dean has integrity.
Also, I no longer understand Cas. He is simply Man in Trenchcoat, walking. Note to writers: Please give Cas something meaningful to do. Also, can someone please explan Cas’ powers to me?
Also, speaking of characters acting out of character… Why is Crowley no longer mean?
Well… that pretty much sums up everything I am having issues with!! Nice post… welcome aboard! :p
[quote]Why is Crowley no longer mean?[/quote]
Beneficial influence of Sam’s blood 😀 Now he seems to be nicer then he was when he was a human 😀
[quote] I feel like they butchered Sam’s character back in Season 8 (not looking for Dean in Purgatory), season 9 (The Purge, and the debacle that followed). Note to writers: Sam loves his brother. Sam is not dumb – Sam is smart![/quote]
Agreed, agreed, agreed!
[quote]I wish the SPN writers would stop afflicting Dean with some nonsense as an excuse that causes him to go off the rails[/quote]
Mostly agree!:) that was certainly true of the interminable MOC story, but the Amara connection seems like a different beast so far. Rather than having him go off the rails, the connection seems to be turning him into a pod person. However, when he’s not around Amara and subject to her influence, I think this is the closest thing to old Dean that we’ve seen since the beginning of S9. But I agree that it will be frustrating and OOC if they again have Dean becoming out of control or excessively violent or cold blooded. I love what we’ve seen of old Dean this season and I want him to stick around.
[quote] Please give Cas something meaningful to do. Also, can someone please explan Cas’ powers to me?[/quote]
My heart goes out to the Cas girls (and Cas guys), because you are absolutely right about this. TPTB haven’t known what to do with the character in many years. Figure something out!
[quote] speaking of characters acting out of character… Why is Crowley no longer mean?[/quote]
I loved Crowley the first few years he was on the show, but they’ve butchered his character even worse than Cas’s. Pragmatic, vicious, cold-blooded, snarky Crowley was awesome. Crybaby, Dean-loving, “mommy doesn’t love me,” frustrated parent Crowley has been awful. He’s the cuddliest, most angsty King of Hell ever! And a total bore, for the most part. Either make him a credible, convincing demon or kill him off. If/when they do kill him off, I hope it’s Sam that delivers the coup de grace. He’s never been as accepting or even enamored of Crowley as Dean has.
Loved your post, and welcome to the site!
I hope you’re right, and the writers continue bringing the old Dean. I hope the writers continue bringing Sam’s POV. If Crowley is to be put of his misery, I agree it should be at the hands of Sam. Maybe Cas will hit a dog.
[quote]Maybe Cas will hit a dog.[/quote]
That made me laugh out loud!
[quote]Crybaby, Dean-loving, “mommy doesn’t love me,” frustrated parent Crowley has been awful. He’s the cuddliest, most angsty King of Hell ever! And a total bore, for the most part. Either make him a credible, convincing demon or kill him off. If/when they do kill him off, I hope it’s Sam that delivers the coup de grace. [/quote]
This all has been the problem with Crowley plus a touch of bureaucratic paper pusher!!! But with the other improvements in season 11, he also seems to be back on track.
I disagree that Sam’s character was butchered in S8 and 9. I would have liked an episode on what happened before he hit, as Robbie Thompson put it, that F****ing dog. But I understood Jared’s very subtle and moving performance (yes I know I’m in the minority here). I also understood every word of Sam’s talk with Dean in the Purge. I can’t for the life of me understand why so many fans only reacted to Dean’s shocked look afterwards and not the months that Sam endured that preceded that conversation. It seemed very clear to me (again I know I’m in the minority). Having said that S9 after the angel possession really fell apart. The MOC story line just never went anywhere satisfying and Sam kind of disappeared.
Crowley has always had an uneasy frenemy kind of relationship with the Winchesters right from his first introduction to the show. It seems that he understands that they will bail him out of any situation he gets himself into that he can’t get out of by himself. They will never kill him and he will never kill them. They have an alliance that suits both their needs most of the time.
I do agree with you about Castiel. Either give the poor guy something to do, define who he is or cut him loose. I really think Sera was on the right track with that character. There really isn’t anywhere they can go with him. Unless these next few episodes comes up with something really amazing (and bad ass) for Cas it is just time for him to go.
::raising hand::: I’m in the minority with you! 🙂
I never thought for a second Sam has ever been butchered in any season. Carver had established from the get go of S8 that Sam believed with all that he is that his brother died. Sam had said it like three times to dean in WNTTAK that he thought he died. He didn’t hunt anymore because the family business killed his whole family. The fact that he hit a dog and in every flashback that we saw of Sam with Amelia clearly established how mentally broken he was at the loss of his brother. He hit the dog in the first place, most likely in an attempt to hurt himself , as was hinted in heartache, the episode regarding suicide. Meg even questioned why Sam hit the dog in the first place. Sam told Amelia after his brother died, he imploded and ran….he also noted to dean that he was keeping the promise they made to ea. other. Sam was clearly devastated by Dean’s death…spent most of the year grieving his brother’s death…and do you know why that is? Because he kept a promise he made to his brother about not bringing ea. other back if either died….So Sam was following his brother’s wishes….and by doing what he thought his brother wanted, as a promise was made….he never learned his brother wasn’t in fact dead. The only mistake Sam made was keeping a promise he made to his brother….silly sam….how dare he keep a promise.
Sam never left Dean anywhere….Dean, who came out of purgatory totally f***ed up, blamed sam for leaving him there….when in actuality, Dean was taking out on Sam his own personal issues….as he confessed to in ALSOK. Dean told Sam he left him in purgatory for a girl, but the truth was that (Dean’s inaccurate belief) dean left cas in purgatory for a vampire. Dean told Sam he’d been lying to him ever since he got in his ride…but the actual truth was, Dean had been lying to sam…he lied about benny and he lied about cas….but mostly dean spent the first half of the season lying to himself. He told sam benny was more of a brother than he’d ever been cuz benny never let him down…..but the truth was, benny didn’t let dean down because benny needed him to get out of purgatory. Dean tried convincing Sam that benny could be trusted…but dean spent most of the time trying to convince himself of that and unsuccessfully i might add. Dean never trusted Benny, because if he had then he wouldn’t have kept sam from him. Dean didn’t trust benny and if sam had been in contact with benny, sam wouldn’t have trusted him either. But the biggest issue with Dean was facing what he became in purgatory….the darkness that is dean took over in purgatory…it is that part of dean that enjoyed the kill and that part of dean that became friends with a monster…when dean came out of purgatory he was still the same dark dean ….he was awful to Sam and kevin, he was violent and uncaring on the job, and was totally willing to kill kevin’s mother. He was angry…mostly at himself and he took his anger out on his brother. His friendship with Benny was built on blackmail….yet they bonded because Benny was never Dean’s conscience. Dean can kill and enjoy it without guilt or remorse. The dark side of dean was free. There’s no way that Dean would’ve felt peace in purgatory if Sam was there to keep Dean’s dark side at bay. Sam keeps dean human, and I will contend that Dean’s resentment of Sam had more to do with the fact that Dean enjoyed purgatory more than suffered in it…and sam wasn’t there to keep him human. Dean brought benny out of purgatory because he felt obligated and was essentially blackmailed….but i think it was more…I think the dark part of dean which was still in control wanted benny out because with benny dean was free to k ill without guilt…benny was dark dean’s connection to purgatory…..
as time went on and he spent more time out of purgatory…got back to doing his job…and working alongside his brother, dean’s darker self started to disappear….and it wasn’t until dean totally cut benny loose that dean became dean again. He smiled more. He joked more. He was less burdened…..he was more relaxed…he became more focused on his job…he became more focused on his brother….he was back to being himself again….his last connection (benny) to his dark side severed…..we don’t revisit his darkness again until he takes on the mark….
he defeats his inner darkness, with the help from his brother…who has always seen nothing but the good inside dean. I think dean had to beat his own darkness in order to defeat….the darkness.
As for Sam’s plight in the cage…I agree with Lilah….Sam’s strength has always been his ability to endure and still have faith. A century of torture by luci and Sam is still empathetic, caring, faithful,….a tremendous heart. The devil never broke Sam’s spirit….and here Sam is again…Lucifer trying to break sam’s spirit…take away his faith…..but i don’t think he will….now the ep hasn’t aired yet, so i don’t know what will happen, but I can say that Sam facing lucifer in the first place is heroic and brave. I’m not so sure luci is telling the truth about luring Sam there….it could very well be that Sam does come out with information that is important…..or maybe what sam does here…facing lucifer, his greatest fear….is a test….is important down the line in defeating the darkness….maybe it’s not so much about what sam learns intel wise…but what sam learns about himself…and what’s he capable of handling….if Sam can come face to face with his tormentor and come out of that cage, either by his own means or with the help of his brother….it’s the coming out that’s important…it’s the not letting lucifer beat him down….think of it like a victim of a crime looking into the eye of the person who hurt them and then smiling….not letting the bastard who hurt them win…coming out on top…Maybe the whole point of Sam coming face to face with lucifer is to see if he has the strength to come out on top……which i have no doubt he will…..
and if sam can face down lucifer…then sam can face whatever the darkness may throw at him in the future…especially given that she’s got plans for Dean that don’t involve sam.
i’m looking forward to dean having a face to face with his brother’s tormentor….i’m sure he’s long wanted to kick his ass….;)
anyway…i’m actually looking forward to this eppy…..
what i really hope for is dabb making sense out of the mess that was made in brother where art though….seriously….i hope at the very least they do a flashback where cas calls dean while he’s at the meeting with crowley and rowena and sam…because at least there would be a teeny bit of legitimacy as to how dean found out about the church murders…..though it’ll never explain how he would just up and leave sam…..but i’ll take what i can get….
I actually think God does help….
[quote]The fact that he hit a dog and in every flashback that we saw of Sam with Amelia clearly established how mentally broken he was at the loss of his brother. He hit the dog in the first place, most likely in an attempt to hurt himself , as was hinted in heartache,[/quote]
I saw nothing in the show that alluded to Sam wanting to hurt himself nor hinted at Heartache. Can you point this out for me.
[quote]Meg even questioned why Sam hit the dog in the first place.[/quote]
No, meg the demon questioned why Sam bothered to stop after he hit the dog. She could not grasp the concept of caring about a dog.
MEG
Wait — h-hold on. There’s one part I don’t understand. You hit a dog and stopped. Why?
actually i guess it’s how you look at it…i saw it as meg questioning why Sam hit a dog and then stopped…..not stopping for the dog…but he then stopped hunting….he hit a dog then stopped hunting…why? the question to me encompassed why he hit the dog in the first place and why did he stop hunting.. no matter how you interpret the question, the point is the only one who bothered to ask why sam hit the dog in the first place was meg. nobody else seemed to be interested in what made sam hit a dog in the first place…the question being specifically asked has always indicated to me that Sam was in a very bad way .
As for heartache…that could’ve been more the way I saw it during the conversation the boys were having with Brick’s wife…and she had told them that they had fallen deeply in love and he couldn’t bear the thought of living without her so he drove off the cliff… I had seen that story as a parallel to sam…but that could’ve just been my own interpretation. This was the episode when Sam had told dean that maybe he would be off better hunting alone. He had also told dean at the end that when all was said and done he wanted to go back to living a normal life, that he had something he never had before….I always felt that at this point, Sam was not only missing and pining for his loss of the normal world, but he was pining for it even more due to dean’s anger and constant ragging and sam’s belief that he failed dean so dean would be better off without him. sam noted that he wanted his life to count for something….and i’ve always believed that he said that because he felt he failed as a hunter and as a brother….so he felt that if he could do something for someone in the normal world that he can make up for his failure in the hunting world. Dean was right though….it was how sam was feeling “right now”…..eventually sam came to terms with the fact that normal was never really in the cards for him….but he never lost the dream that it could possibly happen for both of them some day….;)
[quote] disagree that Sam’s character was butchered in S8 [/quote]
I agree. What I think is that from season 8- through 10, the show intended to explore the brother’s relationship and how it is effected by their individual personality strengths and flaws. However the result was- if not a butcher job of the brother’s bond then an infliction of wounds and along the way the boys did do things seemingly uncharacteristic. Season 8: I do think it was uncharacteristic of Sam not to look for Dean. But I understood it. We saw a part of Sam some of us just did not want for him. Depressed Sam. I for one thought that Sam was depressed and hooked up with a melancholy depressed woman and just hung it all up. Sam WAS coming off the cracked mind problem that Cas inflicted on him. Sam was also not a dedicated hunter like John and Dean. He had wanted out; wanted something else. He does not enjoy hunting in the way Dean sometimes does. (I do not mean that Dean enjoys killing I think sometimes he just personally satisfied with life on the road with his brother.) Sam also had already sacrificed himself in season 5 to save the world. So when everyone was gone he walked away but I think in a slightly depressive state because as much as he did not want to be a hunter he was a hunter and when you are not what you are supposed to be your spirit can become depressed. I think Sam sort of enjoyed the quiet life with the girl, the dog and organic fruit; but I think deep down inside he knew that was not to be his life. This why I do not think he was butchered. WE did see Sam jump right back in when confronted with the actual voice of Kevin delivering his desperate messages for help. Sam then sees how his abandonment of the job took its toll on Kevin and later I think he knows how it effected Dean too. Sam knew Dean thought Sam’s not looking for him was perceived as betrayal and he also perceptively saw the “damaged Dean” who emerged from Purgatory’s war zone… (Dean said he is not the same guy). Sam quickly took back up the mantel of responsibility and found a lead to locate Kevin and off they went. Sam may have not looked for his brother but later he took on the trials to save Dean from a suicide mission. And although Sam seemed believable when he stated he saw light at the end of the tunnel; I think he gradually knew these trials were going to kill him and he began to accept it and went on his own suicide mission. His “confessed sin ” was letting down Dean. That weighed heavily on him. But it was Dean who pulled Sam back from the brink and did not allow his brother to die because he did love him and did put him first. Unfortunately, I think Sam just wanted to hear that Dean trusted him. This carried over to season 9 where Dean took away Sam’s free will to die because he did love him. I know many thought it was because Dean was desperate and selfish not to live alone but for me it was more complicated than that…. Dean loves Sam dearly, more than he loves himself and Dean is parentified (a real condition) to the point that Dean cannot have Sam die before him. Sam is hurt by this because he is not loved in the way he defines love and needs to be loved (trust and respect). Sam then says some things that hurt Dean. Now it is Dean’s turn to feel hurt because he is not loved in the way he defines love and needs to be loved (put first and saved at all costs) Now it is also Dean’s turn to be depressed caused by his feelings of emotional abandonment (not Sam’s fault) and does something stupid and I think uncharacteristic (obtain the MOC). Then Season 10 we see Sam doing what Dean needs to feel love….. unconditional saving at all costs and by the very end Dean shows his love for Sam by a mix of unconditional love – he could never kill Sam and by trusting Sam that the only way out of this mess is to do it together. So here we are safely past all the hurt for the most part and onto season 11 in which Sam and Dean are working together. i think they feel the love they need. Dean was saved at all costs…. and he now feels better so to fight the Darkness and Sam is stating the rules (saving alll the people) and Dean is trusting and following. Dean even gave in on the whole Sam and Lucifer meeting. So stay tuned, despite some problems I think Sam and Dean will be okay because the brotherly love bond is back on track…. and we know the train is coming.
i think i agree with you mostly but on some things vary a bit. I do agree that Sam was depressed, but I also believe his depression came from what he believed to be the death of his brother. Sam has always done as his brother wished for the most part. When Sam was trying to save Dean from hell, he did so according to Dean’s rules. He wasn’t allowed to do anything that would reneg or sam would go back to being dead. Sam wanted to use Doc Benton’s immortality formula, but Dean told him no, so sam reluctantly buried the book. Sam wanted to do whatever it was that ruby needed him to do regarding his powers and dean said no. sam abided by dean’s wishes and then had to watch his brother get ripped apart unable to do anything to help or stop it. It was Dean’s death and Sam’s perceived failure that drove sam to do whatever it took to go after lilith, this time breaking his promise to dean. In the end, Sam accidentally set luci free….the one time Sam didn’t abide Dean’s wishes…kind of like the way dean always follows dad’s orders, cuz the one time he didn’t sam almost died and his father never looked at him the same again. So when Sam sees his brother die again….and i think the fact that cas never came back along with crowley’s warning that they shouldnt have stood too close and sam was in fact truly alone, solidified his belief in his brother’s death, I thought it actually did make sense that he would in fact keep his promise to his brother and not mess around. It comes down to the looking part…but why would sam look for his brother he believed died? he believed he was dead and the promise he made to dean was to not try to bring him back. Given that the last time he didn’t keep a promise he made to dean, and the devil came to town….I actually found it perfectly logical that Sam would never do that again…and would in fact keep his promise….especially given that not a few hours earlier, he had to kill bobby again, and bobby’s last words were “when it’s your time to go…go”.
I totally agree that he was depressed…but his depression arose from his belief that his brother was dead….and i agree, without anyone left….he imploded and ran….i think that dog saved his life….and i think he chose amelia because she was just as broken as he was….and he wanted, no needed to save her…because he couldn’t once again save his brother. I agree that he did enjoy some aspects of the quiet life, not unlike dean did with his time with lisa. I agree he was never happy or in love with amelia…but i do think he loved what she did for him and i think he loved the normalcy and unburdened life he had while with her….but i do agree with you that Sam knew that was temporary and not his life….he admitted that in hunter heroici
i agree that sam dove right into work once made to feel as though he abandoned kevin…..i think dean was out of line to make sam feel that way, given that not so long ago, he too left the life..he too gave it all up…and while he played house with lisa, people died….Sam is once again driven by feelings of failure….he couldn’t handle his brother’s death so he fled the life and with that the responsibilities that came with it…kevin. Sam now bears the guilt of not being strong enough…..in addition to feeling guilty that by keeping a promise he ended up still failing his brother…..which i agree has a big part in influencing his decision to take on the trials.
i agree with most of what you said…but i also think that a big influence on sam in saving dean at all costs has to do with what happened in s8…as well as what happened in s3. I think Sam’s proclivity to abide by dean’s wishes and then getting screwed in the end for doing so….played a significant role in sam’s outlook in s10….this time sam was doing what he wanted to do regardless of dean’s protests….he was saving his brother come hell or high water….but ironically in the end….sam does what he so naturally often does when it comes to dean….he follows his wishes, even if it means sacrificing himself….because in the end, dean always will be sam’s big brother….and this is how sam has always shown his love for his brother. 😉
I am afraid I am not one of those that feel Sam was the issue in season 9. The Purge was the result of something done too Sam not something Sam just did to be mean to Dean and considering what was done to him and the consquences as a result, then alot more thought and sensitivity should of been given to Sam by both writers and fandom that season.
It has been a season I have found very hard to forgive if I am honest .
I do agree about Castiel he seems to be stuck in a limbo when it comes to his purpose and writing.
It’s called a deliberate manipulation of viewers’ emotions. We were deliberately shown this story only from Dean’ perspective, simulteaneously shown that Sam had reasons to say what he said but withholding his perspective. If they wanted to create suspence whether Sam was going to save Dean, they failed. They achieved only a great wave of Samhate from one part of the fandom, indignation at the authors from the other part and genuine puzzlement from average viewers.
Exactly. I had no problem with any of Sam’s words or actions in S9, my issue was with how the show then went on to characterize what he said and did after the fact. I was one of the indignant ones! 🙂
?? first I was genuinely puzzled and understood nothing, then I got infuriated at being manipulated and turned into Samgirl 😀 just out of the feeling of deep indignation at the manipulation of my emotions.
Yes, this is it exactly!! Agreed, agreed. I realize that some fans could see Sam’s POV and find the story that “SHOULD” have been told there, but quite frankly, that is not how it was written and not how it was shown. The reason such a vicious tide of bitterness and resentment flowed against Sam, against the victim is in how that story unfolded. It was one sided against the victim. So kudos to anyone who managed to see beyond what we were shown, but many, many fans won’t work that hard and the sympathies of the show were clearly with Dean, as HIS manpain is the only thing that was shown. Sam finally manages to talk a little about what went though, and the only follow up was Dean’s hurt feelings. How are we supposed to feel for the victim if all we see is the pain of the perpetrator? Maybe the writers were worried that Dean might suffer from the ire of the fans because of what he’d done to Sam so they spent a lot of time on his feelings of guilt to try and mitigate what he’d done in the fans eyes. They are always doing that with Dean (The Benny Story? Demon Dean anyone?) Sam in a bad mood was more volatile and dangerous than Demon Dean ever was, and naturally Dean was right about Benny. So, in their efforts to mitigate Dean’s actions (like always) they totally forgot about Sam and what he went through… and of course, the tide of sympathy will always turn to where we are getting the most information and seeing the most pain.. it’s human nature. The story telling was beyond one sided there so it stands to reason that the majority of fans went with the story that was given the most weight.
As for me, I always take facts over their evaluation and it doesn’t matter for me from whose point the story is shown, but I was trained to do so and know the manipulation when I see one, and my sympathies don’t meddle in the equation, but I can imagine how it may look like for unprepared viewer. During season 7 and 8 I wasn’t a samgirl, but I know that Sam was right about Amy, and I was on Sam’s side with the story with Benny, he had the right to check Benny and it was exactly what he did, he didn’t rush to kill him, he only gathered information, if only Amy had the same chance, I think she would have agreed to be put on probation, and I found Dean’s attitude toward Sam in the first half of season 8 outrageous, and it didn’t matter to me, that the story was shown from Dean’s perspective. I also noticed some negative changes in Dean during seasons 4 and 5, and I didn’t believe that Sam was going dark at that time, because the shown facts and their evaluation contradicted each other and I was sticking to facts. I was really shocked having learnt how many people believe that Sam would go dark and even found signs of that.
And you know what? In season 11 we are shown the same Sam and the same Dean as they always were, but the story is not told only from Dean’s perspective, and now viewers percieve the story a little bit different. I hope it will go on.
I wrote a longer version of my thoughts above but here is the readers digest condensed version:
I love both brothers (but will confess to having a favorite) and I can understand both of them; they are just different. In retrospect, now that we are we are in Season 11 and seemingly safely passed all the brotherly angst, I see it like this. In Season 8- through 10, the show intended to explore the brother’s relationship and how it is effected by their individual personality strengths and flaws. This caused each brother to act a bit out of character. Season 8, Sam was depressed, because he found himself physically abandoned. Everyone in his family was now gone. So he did not look for his brother. I thought it was uncharacteristic but I understood it. Although he did not look for his brother, he went back to hunting and later took on the trials to save Dean from a suicide mission. And although Sam seemed believable when he stated he saw light at the end of the tunnel; I think he gradually knew these trials were going to kill him and he began to accept it and went on his own suicide mission. His “confessed sin ” was letting down Dean. That weighed heavily on him. But it was Dean who pulled Sam back from the brink and did not allow his brother to die because he did love him and did put him first. Unfortunately, I think Sam just wanted to hear that Dean trusted him. This carried over to season 9 where Dean took away Sam’s free will to die because he did love him. I know the other thoughts on this that Dean was was desperate and selfish but for me it was more complicated than that…. Dean loves Sam dearly, more than he loves himself and Dean is parentified (a real condition) to the point that Dean cannot have Sam die before him. Sam is hurt by this because he is not loved in the way he defines love and needs to be loved (trust and respect). Sam then says some things. Now it is Dean’s turn to feel hurt because he is not loved in the way he defines love and needs to be loved (put first and saved at all costs) Now it is also Dean’s turn to be depressed caused by his feelings of emotional abandonment (not Sam’s fault) and does something stupid and I think uncharacteristic (obtain the MOC). Then Season 10 we see Sam doing what Dean needs to feel love….. unconditional saving at all costs and by the very end Dean shows his love for Sam by a mix of unconditional love – he could never kill Sam and by trusting Sam that the only way out of this mess is to do it together. Season 11- I think they feel the love they need. Dean was saved at all costs…. and he now feels better so to fight the Darkness (of course he has that Amara connection thing going on ). Sam is stating the rules (saving alll the people) and Dean is trusting and following. Dean even gave in on the whole Sam and Lucifer meeting. So stay tuned, despite some problems I think Sam and Dean will be okay because the brotherly love bond is back on track which is needed because the train is still coming.
Thank you for your articulate and very well thought out post. I mostly agree with everything you said. My big issue during the Carver years is the severe lack of Sam POV. But it feels like TPTB have turned over a new leaf this season. Fingers crossed that going into the second half of the season, the writers continue to remember that SPN is about BOTH brothers – not just Dean with the occasional visit by Sam.
spnlit, I agree with much of what you say, and as someone who also loves both brothers I always give them the benefit of the doubt even when they screw up. For me, the problem is that we’re almost always left to assume or infer Sam’s feelings and motivations, while Dean’s are front and center in the scripts. For example, I agree with this:
[quote]Sam was depressed, because he found himself physically abandoned. Everyone in his family was now gone. So he did not look for his brother. I thought it was uncharacteristic but I understood it.[/quote]
But almost none of it was expressed by Sam or shown in the episodes. He did say that he ran because everyone was gone- Dean, Bobby, Cas, etc. And had I been writing the scripts that would have been the point where Sam elaborated on what a wreck he was after all of the trauma of S 5,6,7 and that he just broke, that he felt awful about it now that he knew Dean was still alive and had been trapped in Purgatory, and other thoughts along those lines. Sam also would have been decimated by the increasingly desperate texts from Kevin. Instead, we got a Sam who calmly continued eating his chili then quite casually said “you’re right, I dropped the ball on Kevin. Let’s go find him.”
In none of the first few episodes of S8 did Sam act like the Sam from the previous 7 seasons. I think the reason is so that the show could gin up the conflict between the brothers in such a way that Dean seemed justifiably angry at Sam. Because if the writers had written Sam with the motivations and feelings that we know he should have displayed, Dean’s behavior towards him would have seemed even more jerky and unsympathetic than it already did. And the show hates to cast Dean in too negative a light.
Contrast that to S9. I have always felt great sympathy and understanding for Dean’s decision about the angel possession. While it was a violation of Sam, I completely understand why Dean did it. And Dean himself agonized about the decision. We thereafter got a string of episodes in which Dean’s guilt and worry about the possession were prominently displayed, so that we would (justifiably) sympathize with him. We didn’t have to infer how he was feeling or what his motivations were, we were actually shown. Therein lies my trouble with Carver’s notion that the arc was about the emotional journey of both brothers. While the arc you describe fits in with the characterizations of the brothers and makes complete sense, for the most part we were only shown Dean’s side of the journey.
But I love and completely agree with this part of your analysis:
[quote]
Then Season 10 we see Sam doing what Dean needs to feel love….. unconditional saving at all costs and by the very end Dean shows his love for Sam by a mix of unconditional love – he could never kill Sam and by trusting Sam that the only way out of this mess is to do it together. Season 11- I think they feel the love they need. Dean was saved at all costs…. and he now feels better so to fight the Darkness (of course he has that Amara connection thing going on ). Sam is stating the rules (saving alll the people) and Dean is trusting and following. Dean even gave in on the whole Sam and Lucifer meeting. So stay tuned, despite some problems I think Sam and Dean will be okay because the brotherly love bond is back on track which is needed because the train is still coming.[/quote]
I wrote an article last spring in which I said essentially the same thing; in Sacrifice Sam was expressing his devastation at Dean’s lack of trust and faith in him, while Dean was expressing that he loved Sam more than anything. I love where the brothers are in their relationship this season, I just hope it continues and is even strengthened no matter what occurs. And there’s that elusive hug that I’m hoping for!
i think i have to disagree that sam didn’t act like he did in the previous seasons. Though, at this point, after all he’s been through I don’t see how it’s possible for him to act the same exact way. Sam has always been the one to internalize everything, keep it inside, and deal with his inner pain. The only time we’ve truly Sam externalize his fears and feelings in the past has been when he was drunk or medicated. Sam didn’t even tell dean about his visions for fear of what dean would think…it was only because people were in danger that Sam had to confess to dean, so that he can get dean to go back home to Kansas….as you just have to trust me wasn’t enough for dean..he needed more. So it was either let those people die, as jessica had done, or confess. Dean has always been the one to externalize his anger. Most of those roadside confessions were not Sam’s, they were Dean’s. The most honest Sam came about his feelings was in metamorphosis…when Dean’s constant pushing drove Sam to a roadside confession….Sam internalized most of the horror/guilt he felt when some of his memories came back from being soulless. the one outburst he had was when dean kept insisting they leave in unforgiven and Sam told him he couldn’t because he had a freakin soul now…..but most of his pain, his memories, his guilt….that he kept to himself. Season 7, sam mostly spent trying to keep his sanity…we got to see his external breakdown…but thereafter, sam kept his crazy to himself. Only by mere mention from levi sam were we reminded of how unstable Sam truly was when he questioned how he was standing on two feet. Bobby even told sam that he was always a deep little son of a bitch. With Dean, we got to see his memories of hell, he got to express his memories of hell….sam never did…we never knew what truly happened to sam in hell….all we know is that he endured a century of torture, and he never once talked about it out loud…he kept it all inside….until he finally broke….and though cas took away the hallucinations…cas never took away sam’s memories or pain of what he endured….but at least he had dean…dean was his stone number one…and when dean was gone….well what did sam truly have left but his memories of hell plus a bonus new set of memories….bobby, cas and his brother’s death…once again right before his eyes.
Even in the flashbacks, we never once heard sam’s pov. sam stayed in character with amelia as he always did. she had no idea of who he truly was. she knew nothing about what he had been through. she didn’t even know his real job. all she knew was he had a brother who died…and we never even got to see if he said even more than that. Sam never talked truth with amelia because he was running from it.
When sam learns about kevin, yes he calmly approaches the situation like he always had….he gets back on the horse….he dives right into work mode. But when he meets up with kevin, we see the pain in his face, we hear the pain in his voice…we see the guilt encompassing sam as he talks to kevin in the church and apologizes to him. But kevin didn’t hold it against sam…he didn’t make sam feel the way dean has been making sam feel…he forgave and understood…i think that made it easier for sam to get back to doing his job….but it didn’t erase his guilt ..It’s not outright, as with sam,, it’s never outright, it’s always shown in subtle ways….but in every episode of s8 Sam displayed his guilt and pain. In heartache, Sam told dean that it would be best for him to hunt alone…He gave him a speech about finding something he never had….that when all was said and done he would leave hunting…but this speech wasn’t really about that…if you really listen and pay attention, you see that sam gave this speech after being ragged on by dean for the last couple of eps….how dean constantly passively agressively reminded sam how he let him down, how he failed him…..i always believed the conversation in heartache wouldn’t have happened if sam wasn’t feeling so guilty and didn’t feel like such a failure. he noted he wanted his life to count for something….because as a hunter and a brother he failed…but maybe in a normal life he can matter and do something right….it was all there….you can see it all…..it wasn’t an outright confession….but it was the closest thing we got to one from sam…
again in the eps to follow dean would put sam down…but sam doesn’t externalize verbally….he keeps it inside and instead tries to rectify his mistakes, tries to atone for them. It wasn’t until dean’s speech in SC that Sam could take no more….and he finally verbalized in anger his feelings and it mostly had to do with amelia, not even himself….but one thing he did let be known that screamed how much of a failure he deemed himself to be was when he told dean he didn’t need the coin to say what he said. That said it all…right there was Sam’s state of mind…his guilt…his belief to have failed everyone…In one sentence, he broke my heart.
Then the text….sam believing dean put benny first….sam’s ultimatum….his benny is a deal breaker…again screamed of sam’s agony, guilt and feeling of failure…to the point where he couldn’t take it anymore…and dean knew it…he’d knew he’d gone to far…he knew he pushed too hard….dean had to choose who he wanted to be…the man he became in purgatory or the man he was with his brother….it made him angry to have to choose…to have to cut ties with benny…because cutting ties with benny meant cutting ties with purgatory and who dean was down there. It wasn’t until he made that choice that dean became dean again…
sam made a choice too…it was run away from what’s real or stay and deal with it …..he chose to stay…he chose his brother and he chose to do everything and anything he could to make it right…we see it in every episode….most blatantly taking over the trials…..
but again, with sam it’s always subtle but it’s there…you can see it. it’s in every action and every word. it took 8 yrs and a very high fever for sam to finally confess to dean how he always saw himself.
Dean is a bomb…he explodes when he feels the need.
sam is a volcano….dormant, quiet….with all his crap building and brewing within…until one day it becomes to much for him and he implodes….
sam is a character that you don’t alway watch with your eyes and your ears…sam is a character you watch with your heart. 😉
it’s always been that way…hopefully now though, after everything…both boys can be more open and honest without feeling like they have to hide things
[quote]Sam has always been the one to internalize everything, keep it inside, and deal with his inner pain.[/quote]
I actually disagree with this sugarhi. I know everyone always says that Sam internalizes things and that’s why we never hear what he’s feeling, etc, but I guess I’m in a minority of one in that I don’t think that’s been the case for the most part until the last few years. In the first five seasons, I viewed Sam as by far the more expressive brother, more comfortable with his emotions. Dean OTOH was the no chick flick moments guy. Sam was very forthcoming about his feelings towards Dean and John and his life in general. The one exception was S4 where they kept most of Sam’s story hidden until the big reveal that he was drinking demon blood. S6 was tricky because Sam was not himself for half of it. It was not until S8 that we suddenly had no idea what Sam was thinking much of the time, until a burst of emotion was allowed in some eps, like SC and Trial and Error. Sam has gradually become the quieter brother over the course of all of the seasons, but it was not until Carver that we had long strings of episodes where we were in the dark about what Sam was really feeling. And interestingly, I finally heard some confirmation of my thoughts on this issue from Jared himself. At a recent Con, a fan asked Jared something along the lines of, why doesn’t Sam have friends, or special friends the way Dean does. (I forget exactly how she phrased it- but it’s a question I’ve always wanted an answer to as well!) And Jared said that Dean is the one who needs friends because he isn’t as open about his feelings with Sam, so he needs to have these other people to talk to so the viewers will know what Dean’s thinking and feeling.
Anyway, that is why it seemed OOC to me that S8 Sam expressed very little about what he was thinking and feeling in the months after Dean disappeared, and even after Dean returned. It would make a lot of sense that he was depressed, but I still feel that he should have been allowed to express the feelings that you attribute to him (correctly I think), and that would have put his seemingly OOC actions in a sympathetic context.
I do agree completely with this sentiment:
[quote]sam is a character that you don’t alway watch with your eyes and your ears…sam is a character you watch with your heart. 😉
it’s always been that way…hopefully now though, after everything…both boys can be more open and honest without feeling like they have to hide things[/quote]
🙂
i think i lean towards sam being more internal than dean. Sam may have voiced his feelings about how he felt about hunting, but when it comes to Sam personally…discussing himself, I found his confessionals very far and few between, and given under extreme circumstances. Sam was very fearful of how dean would see him regarding his visions and he kept that a secret for 9 eps. He only confessed because jenny and her kids were in danger. Season 1 I felt had sam the most sharing, but still what he did share only came out when he was frightened…as he was in nightmare and he feared he could become like max. In bloody mary, dean had to confront sam in order to spill what he was thinking…and even still, sam kept secret. Sam at the beginning was a bit more open, but he still for the most part kept alot to himself. Sometimes it was because he feared what Dean might think and other times dean simply shot sam down or would change the subject or wouldn’t listen. I think as time went on, when it came to certain things, sam didn’t bring it up because dean wouldn’t want to hear it. Sam was more prone to being honest with Dean in s2, especially when it came to how he was afraid for Dean at the beginning of the season, and then became fearful of what he could become himself. But again, the only time Sam talked to Dean about that was when he was truly afraid or drunk. I’d say sam became closed off during s4…that’s when he kept things to himself more ….and I think a lot of that had to do with dean’s death and sam failing him. The one thing that has driven Sam in most every action since s4 has been him failing to save his brother, and that’s the one thing sam never really talked to dean about….that’s the pain he started to internalize…sam may have been drinking demon blood and was keeping that a secret…but that’s not the only thing sam was keeping inside….he never truly confessed to dean why it was so important to kill lilith…it was only during when the levee breaks that we got a sense of what was going on inside of sam…Season 5 had sam spend most of the time trying to atone to dean and trying to keep dean from saying yes to michael…but i don’t recall any confessionals from sam …except in ponr when dean asked why he was doing this and sam simply said….because you’re still my big brother….In s6 sam was soulless for half the season and spent the second half trying to remain sane and trying to stop cas….sam once voiced to dean that he had to make right what he did because he had a soul now…but at no point did sam ever confess to dean what he did do…not really…soulless sam telling him he killed people wasn’t really sam having a heart to heart with dean…it was more sam telling dean something so he doesn’t split. Season 7 sam kept alot to himself…..i mean he confessed about the hallucinations because he really couldn’t hide them…but at no time has he ever discussed with dean what lucifer did to him in the cage…he kept most of what was going on inside him to himself….to the point that people were complaining in posts saying sam started out with hallucinations and then….nothing….but there wasn’t nothing..it’s just that sam kept it all inside….he didn’t share with dean…we really didn’t know what was going on in his head until repo man….sam’s hallucinations came back and all dean knew was that sam wasn’t sleeping…dean had no idea how scared sam was for dean at the end of s7…sam noticed dean drinking from bobby’s flask like it was coca cola…the fear was all over his face but he kept quiet…until in slice girls sam was so scared that he begged dean not to get killed….this was a significant moment of foreshadowing….sam pleading with dean not to die, because he couldn’t handle it if he lost him…then not long after, that’s exactly what sam believed to have happened…and his reaction to dean’s death was exactly what was foreshadowed in the slice girls. even when sam was in the hospital, he never shared with dean his hallucinations…all dean knew was that sam was seeing luci again… sam internalizing in s8 seemed to me a continuation of the last 4 seasons….only sam’s failure once again and disappointing dean once again, had sam practically in a cocoon. sam barely defended himself, took every hit dean threw his way…and not once did sam tell dean to screw off….not once did sam tell dean…you have no idea what really happened what it was really like for me……and it goes back to his belief that he failed his brother….it was almost like self punishment…like he didn’t feel he deserved to be heard….plus given dean’s state of mind, i always got the feeling that no matter what sam said wouldn’t have mattered….no matter how you slice it dean would see it as sam failing him. Season 8 isn’t the first time Sam took dean’s wrath instead of speaking out. it wasn’t until sc that he finally had enough….and in torn and frayed, when sam realized what dean had done and made the ultimatum…again sam voicing his feelings because of fear…he was afraid he was losing his brother to a vampire….then of course he opens up in trial and error, but it wasn’t about him….it was about dean….sam never truly told him why he needed to do the trials…that he had to make it up to dean because he disappointed him…so even though sam opened up a little, he didn’t really open up about himself. ….not until the great escapist and sacrifice where at this point sam was so sick and broken….
so while i do agree with you that sam was more in touch with his feelings at times and more openly emotional at some other times….those moments were under extreme conditions a lot of the time. like heart….everybody loves a clown….fresh blood…..I do think sam became much more closed off after s3……i think the start of his depression started then, when he failed to save dean from hell….i think with all that sam has been through since s3…..his depression had increased….by the time we get to s8…and sam feels he failed dean once again, sam becomes full out depressed and extremely closed off….
dean may have not been up for chick flick moments…but i found dean to be very expressive of his emotions. Dean was angry he showed it. depressed..he showed it. happy ..he showed it. while dean can’t always deal with certain things and thus keeps quiet, changes the subject, goes into full denial or simply walks out of the room…..he does express emotion while doing all of these things. dean is an open book most of the time…..we always know what he’s thinking and feeling because he’s always telling someone, whether sam, bobby, cas…or crowley. Dean may not always be able to open up to sam….but he does open up. he has had his share of confessionals. sam on the other hand doesn’t for the most part have anyone to talk to except dean….and alot of the times sam feels he can’t.
on the bright side, i do think that’s of the past now and i think the brothers are at a place where they can be more open with ea. other…even if it takes one of them longer to do it. 😉
as for this ep coming up….
there are two things that i really need to have dabb explain…as the last ep, while a very cool ending, was a total mess imho…
first off, i hope dabb could explain why it is luci has a meatsuit since the last vessel he inhabited was sam….and i’m not getting how luci isn’t nothing more than a beam of light or puff of smoke.
and more importantly….i hope dabb can make sense how it is that dean found out about the church murders when he was with sam, crowley and rowena. did cas call?
and i’d really like to understand how dean would leave his brother alone there in the first place, instead of taking him with him and then going back later on.
those are the mysteries that i would love to see explained….:D
I don’t know sugarhi, maybe it’s time for me to do a series rewatch because I have a different impression of the brothers. But maybe we’re talking about different things as well. I agree with you that Dean has generally been more EMOTIONAL than Sam, quicker to show anger, impatience, happiness, etc. But I always felt that we got almost as much information about Sam’s thoughts and feelings in the earlier seasons. I agree with disgruntled about this. In S1-5 especially we got a lot of insight into Sam; Fallen Idols was a good example, which maybe you forgot because Paris Hilton’s acting was cringeworthy! The first seven seasons I had no problem understanding what Sam was thinking and feeling, and I didn’t have to infer it based on his previous characterization, the way I did in S8-9. I guess we have to just agree to disagree until I can go back and remind myself of why I feel this way. 🙂
But I completely share your feelings about this:
[quote]i hope dabb could explain why it is luci has a meatsuit since the last vessel he inhabited was sam….and i’m not getting how luci isn’t nothing more than a beam of light or puff of smoke.[/quote]
As I said in a comment above, I don’t get this either and I’m hoping for some explanation in the next ep.
samandean10, my thoughts exactly. Sam was always very open about his thoughts and his feelings, he always expressed quite clearly what he was thinking, especially in the first two seasons and in season 5. They withheld a little his perspective in season 3 to create the suspence about Azazel words in season 2 finale. Even in season 4 his thoughts and motives were clearly expressed, the only exclusion was the part that he was drinking the demon blood, which was revealed only in “On the head of the pin”, but his motives why he was doing so were clearly explained in episodes 04.01, 04.03, 04.07, 04.12, 04.16, 04.18. In season 6 when his soul returned to him he also was quite open and we saw a lot of his POV in the first half of season 7. Everything which was needed to understand him was to take him at face value, not to seek some hidden motives of his actions. Things greatly changed in seasons 8 and 9, where we didn’t get much of his perspective and had to assume his motives from our previous knowledge about him and quite rare glimpses we were given. But, it was not because he suddenly liked to internalize things, it was only because we were shown only Dean’s emotions, what Sam felt were left mostly off-screen.
I do not think Sam was that open about his thoughts and feelings. Sera Gamble saw Sam as a internalizer and I think to a large degree that is how he was written ,I do think we had enough to establish certain aspects but we did not have the book load we have had with Dean.
One of the biggest complaints for Sam in general from alot of the fandom not just Sam fans esp around season 5 was that he was too opaque .
Season 9 just failed Sam utterly in the worst way possiible with one of the most personal situations for him.
[quote]Sera Gamble saw Sam as a internalizer[/quote]
Did she say that in an article Sharon? because oddly IMO it’s largely thanks to Sera that we got so much excellent Sam POV. I always think of her as the one who “got” Sam the best and I felt like we learned so much about him in her eps, as well as when she was showrunner.
I did not find Sam to be opaque at all until S 8-9, when he became a cipher in my opinion.
Oh Sera could be great for Sam but yes it was from a interview but do not ask me which one it was going back a few seasons. It is just something that stayed in my mind as for Sam being opque there is a good argument for that if people were feeling that then there must of being a reason.
I personally do not feel that Sam,s pov or emotional landscape as been given the same credence as Dean,s going back to when John died but if others see it differently that is fine.
[quote]I personally do not feel that Sam,s pov or emotional landscape as been given the same credence as Dean,s going back to when John died[/quote]
Kripke even expressed regret in an interview that the show didn’t really explore Sam’s reaction to John’s death, but focused almost exclusively on Dean’s reaction. But once Kripke decided that Dean was the hero of the show, we began to get more insight into Dean’s POV than Sam’s. But it was not nearly as lopsided as it became in the Carver era- until now, which is why I’m loving this season.
But did Kripke ever say that Deam was the hero of the show? If I’m not mistaken he said that Dean is a hero of the show in very many ways. There’s a difference, isn’t it?
If I remember he said ”In many ways Dean was the true hero of SPN” and a sorry Sam girls was thrown in.Basically because Dean saved people because he chose to and Sam saved people because he had to or something along those lines ;
However if I am wrong then my apologizes to Eric .
Genuinely surprised to hear Eric felt this way. I have always felt that BOTH brothers are the true heroes. Didn’t Sam sacrifice himself in SS to save the world? If that’s not heroic, I dont know what is!
Not quite. I found the quote, it was said in the very specific context and mind the date APRIL, 2008:, or other religious tools?
“Q: Dean always seems to struggle with religion and believing in God, whereas Sam seems more readily to do so. How can Dean struggle with that and yet use a rosary to create holy water, or use
EK: I think that is something very interesting about the core of the character. He is ultimately pragmatic and says that he only believes what he can see. He doesn’t really have faith, he doesn’t believe in destiny and he only has what he can see with his own eyes. But he tends to see all kinds of crazy stuff and he uses the religious tools because he has seen them work. He doesn’t think it’s the power of God making it work, for all he knows it might be some occult spell. All he knows is that it works. He’s practical, therefore uses it. He believes in demons because he has fought them and uses those tools against them. But because he has never seen angels or God, and has no direct experience with them, he just doesn’t believe in them. What makes the character so interesting — because in my mind HE’S the hero of the show in so many ways, so my apologies to the Sam lovers. Whereas Sam is that very classic Joseph Campbell with the prophecy and all that, Dean is the character who doesn’t believe in that stuff yet he keeps coming across it. So how he deals with it and how he reacts to it is interesting. At the end of the day, the soul of the show is about humanism, humanity, and making your own destiny. Basically Dean says f— all that prophecy crap, we’re brothers, and I love you. (loud cheers) And that’s basically the core of the character.”
Does not really make much difference does it.
In fact it does. He was speaking during season 3, when the story rotated around Dean and his sacrifice. And what he was speaking about was free will and faith, about Dean’s refusal to admit that Sam would go dark only because it was his destiny, not about who was the true hero of the show. And certainly he wouldn’t have revealed who will save the world, even if he had already decided that at that period of time.
Fair enough not sure it is as simple as that but it is ancient history anyway.
Ok so here is what I see to be the situation with that quote. [quote]Whereas Sam is that very classic Joseph Campbell with the prophecy and all that[/quote] if you look up what he is talking about you get “the “Hero’s Journey,” or the “monomyth.”” And I believe he is looking at it from the POV of Star Wars because I have seen him include Star Wars in his descriptions on various occasions. Where Luke Skywalker is the ‘hero’ and it is his journey that we think we are supposed to be following. Kripke has long said that Sam is Luke Skywalker to Dean’s Han Solo. And we all know that even though Han Solo was not not the core hero of Star Wars, he is the OTHER hero of the story – who has more chance to be non-traditional for that reason. And he gets to do a lot of heroic stuff without necessarily needing to go through a trial of fire to understand himself. He also gets the girl!
What he was saying was for the benefit of the Deangirls who were complaining (at the time) about Sam being ‘the central character’ on the show – and telling them that the story wasn’t ‘all about Sam’ and Dean’s reactions to Sam. He was saying also that he preferred the Han Solo type of character (which I am sure I have seen him say somewhere else). It is perfectly likely that he preferred Dean also, and there is no problem there, he is entitled to prefer whichever brother he likes, Sera seemed to prefer Sam and so we got some epic and amazing storylines for both brothers.
All of that is fair enough, but the thing is, as someone who watched the show from the beginning to the end of Season 7 without the effects of fandom, I never saw the storyline that way. I also think that Samgirls, supposedly the followers of the monomyth character, are way more likely to ignore the idea that everyone is either ‘good’ or ‘bad’ and deal with the story in front of them, it is why they are the ones who get the most up-in-arms about OOC behavior and canon-breaking (and I think have less interest in shipping). They are the ones who get heartbroken when Sam does something within the show’s world that is seen by others (even other fans) as ‘unforgivable’ while Dean and Castiel fans are much more prone to just ignore the idea that it is even possible Dean (or Castiel) COULD do anything that is unforgivable. I have seen plenty of comments on the site here of Dean fans defining their take on the show exactly that way, though I am not saying that for either fangroup my definition includes everyone, I am just trying to articulate my impression of the way this fandom works in general.
I think te reason why there is such imbalance in the way the brothers are judged is that the traditional hero is required to behave in a way that is ‘perfect’ and the style of hero Kripke is defining Dean as does not have to follow the same rules. The show writes them that way too. Sam is punished for the same transgressions Dean makes, but Dean is not. Sam is also punished for NOT making transgressions but simply by carrying out the heroes journey, only to have his decisions result in failure each and every time, but to be honest that is because the writers are all writing their own story nowadays.
I think this happens because the understanding that there is a universal way certain stories are supposed to go, if they ARE mythic concepts. However if they don’t follow those rules then it isn’t a mythic story so characters need to be complex and nuanced investigations into ‘real’ people and they need to be more cohesively and reliably written than SPN’s characters are written nowadays. I don’t know that the current showrunner is aware of any of this as Supernatural no longer really follows any rules. Our ‘Joseph Campbell’ character will never win, never achieve his purpose, and our other character, Kripke’s non traditional Hero is not actually learning anything, he is not going through a trial, never has to pay for mistakes, everything he does is ‘not thought out but is the right thing’ and the mythic hero gets further damaged either physically or morally as a result (and when he points this out he gets roasted). Overall the mythos is chaotic.
[quote]What he was saying was for the benefit of the Deangirls who were complaining (at the time) about Sam being ‘the central character’ on the show – and telling them that the story wasn’t ‘all about Sam’ and Dean’s reactions to Sam.[/quote]
Yeah, I completely agree with that. It was how looked to me too. We should mind the time and the context and fandom reactions. Besides we should take everything the authors say untill the show ends with a good pinch of salt, because often they are intentionally misleading to support the suspence of the story. If the suspence of the story of the whole Kripke era was whether Sam will go dark, how he could say: Oh, no, it will b? Sam who will save the world? That would be embarrasing.
By the way I wasn’t a part of the fandom untill last summer and never was influenced by fandom reactions and never knew about some peculiar groups incide it and never read any reviews, so I made all my opinions only on the content of the show, and I always thought and still think that Sam made only one mistake and it was in season 4. Since then I think Sam took only the right decisions, and I haven’t noticed any mistakes at all.
Ok you can help me then. 😀 At what point did the episodes stop making coherent sense as an overall storyline? (You said you found yourself to be forced to be a Samgirl, that happened to me too) but I was involved in fandom after the Born Again Identity in Season 7 so I don’t know what amount of it is fandom interaction influencing my opinion and what is simply a change in quality. I thought that the show’s quality went down from ‘the girl next door’ onwards. But that could be just because I got chewed out on here (unexpectedly because I was still pretty new on the site) for siding with Sam over the Amy storyline – one of my early interactions with fandom – I was so astonished that anyone would not agree with my take on it, never mind get abusive about it … ah, those were innocent days …
I thought and still think that Sam was right with Amy, and I wasn’t samgirl at that time. But it is because it’s clear to me that story with Amy is the story of not only Sam’s journey but of Dean’s journey as well. You know I thought and now I’m even more sure of it that the authors started to show an upward evolution of Sam’s character after his Hell experience and downward evolution of Dean’s character after his Hell experience. I think the reasons are clear – Sam endured and Dean broke. I think that Sam in the story with Amy understood that mercy is above justice, at first he was ready to kill her knowing who she was and changed his mind only after hearing her and having understood that she wasn’t evil, only messed up, he showed her mercy. On the other hand the authors started to explore the dark side of Dean’s character, tracing it from Bloodlust, where it was shown that he was attrated to hunting by killing and found it pleasant, which took the further development with his Hell experience. But i think that his downward spiral started in 06.21. You know, watching those people tortured and killed by Dean was awful. I think that from that episode his downward spiral began. Then it was his paranoia and distrust, he killed Amy only because of his distrust to everybody including his brother, then we were shown his obssession with revenge to Dick Roman. So I was really very surprised when I learned that there are a lot of people who think that Dean was right there.
But I also think that somewhere in the second part of season 7 the story lost something and got less interesting, it lost ideas and the meaning leaving only action. “The Born-Again Identity” was the last interesting episode. But I find it stellar, the only awkward moment was Cas’s raincoat, it was a moment of laughter among the highly dramatic scenes. I think that Carver went on with those tendencies in the characters’ development (Dean liking to be in the Purgatory because there he could kill without remorse and hesitation. Then his taking on the Mark of Cain, Cain called him worthy of the Mark because he was a killer like Cain – Cain’s words, not mine. Then his losing his battle with the Mark of Cain. You know, I don’t think that the authors were pro-Dean. But the story began to be shown only from Dean’s perspective, Sam’s point of view ceased to exist, and they focused only on Dean, that’s why the plot seemed to be less coherent and I started to have problems with the show in season 9 and understood where the story was going only after season 10. And I guessed right, in episode 1 of season 11 I saw Sam and Dean exactly as I expected them to be because it was the logic of the story. So, I don’t think that Sam was shown in the wrong, he was shown in the wrong only from Dean’s perspective, or more correctly from some of the deangirls perspective, because they find faults with Sam even when Dean thinks that Sam is right like in the story with Emma. And I also think that this season at last I noticed also an upward evolution of Dean’s character, which I really looked forward to, some glimpses of the person he was in the early seasons, I hope the tendency will go onbecause I’m tired of watching dark Dean .
disgruntled viewer – we ran out of replies, may have to take this convo elsewhere. Have you noticed that Season 9 is basically the Amy story arc spread over an entire season?
Like they took an unreasonable and entirely polarizing storyline that had already pissed everyone off and made it into a full season ….
i agree
This reminded me of Joseph Campbell’s most famous quote, “follow your bliss”. Has Amara written all over it doesn’t it?
Yes it does! But I don’t know anything about it. What does [i]he[/i] mean?
I don’t recall. I remember Joseph Campbell and his famous quote about bliss from an anthropology class I took in college. Reminded me of Amara and her statements about bliss. Makes me wonder if Carver is somehow, don’t know how, is tying in the early Kripke years with the current arc. It’s late, I’m a few tequilas in, and I’m likely making zero sense right now.
[quote] At the end of the day, the soul of the show is about humanism, humanity, and making your own destiny.[/quote]
I do not think there is much to debate here. EK has made the above remark clear. His comments just mean that Dean is more the hero to him because he embraces EK’s premise that humanity and the unique quality of being human- free will triumph. Sam was the acknowledged hero when he jumped into the pit because it furthered the premise of the show…. the humans with their brother love bond, saved the day. Season’s 8-10 were muddled because no one was following this premise of the show. The premise was getting torn down, the human, humanity, brother bond was being destroyed. The brother’s were fighting based on contrived or reasons that were implied and not articulated; the character representing pure humanity, Dean was not human – moc/ demon; Crowley and Cas were grappling with being part human (blood cure for Crowley and loss of Grace for Cas). Season 11 is back on track because the premise is too. The brothers are human, they are both communicating to each other and in real dialogue; Cas has his grace and is an angel and Crowley is back to being a demon.
I guess I viewed it a bit differently. I’ve always thought that the boys failures and their subsequent drive to come back from them is very much a part of their humanity…makes them human…but more than that…makes them heroes..
I’ve always seen Carver’s story as pretty much a continuation of what was basically started during the Kripke years, when Dean went to hell. I’ve always believed that the fall and rise of both Winchesters despite what’s been thrown their way is the basis of what’s truly human and heroic about them.
I’ve seen the fall of Dean Winchester begin as early as s4…but it was Sam’s fall that had been the focus….Both boys have reached their lowest and risen from it…and both have done it because of the love that ea. and faith that these boys have for ea. other….Carver didn’t break the bond….he actually demonstrated, that no matter how far down the rabbit hole these boys might fall…their bond is the one thing that endures.
I’ve actually viewed the downfall of dean Winchester necessary. Of course, I look at the big picture when I watch this show…..I’ve always felt…given the continuity of ea. season, that the boys aren’t merely made to be put through such horrendous circumstances..for the sheer symmetry of story telling…as chuck put it….but since I believe that the Winchesters have in fact been chosen by God, that they were in fact meant to be born….these boys are constantly put through trials of fire as a test…..and the boys have always passed.
I think the downfall of dean Winchester…to become the very monster he feared to be…and to beat that monster within, to hang on to his basic humanity due to the love his brother has for him and vice versa was absolutely necessary in order for both boys to defeat the Darkness….which I actually believed God fore seen coming.
I don’t think what happened in s8, 9 were contrived. I think Dean broke in purgatory. I found that he became the very thing he hated about himself…and when he got out of purgatory I saw a person who was having an inner battle with himself, and unfortunately Sam ended up the casualty. The Dean that came out of purgatory was the killer part of him who found content and calm in it. He killed without conscious…no guilt…no gray…and benny his monster kill buddy gave dean that freedom. The Dean who was buried in purgatory started to emerge slowly but surely once he got topside. The battle dean faced was having to choose who he wanted to be….Dean giving up benny…his connection to purgatory and all that came with it, chose to be the old Dean…..and in the second half of s8 and the beginning of season 9 we see dean trying to make up to sam for all he’d said and done…..and by possessing sam with gad, well part of that I still believe had everything to do with holding onto to the one person who keeps dean human….given what he’d become when sam wasn’t there.
it took sam in s10 to finally get dean to understand that contrary to what he believes about himself…sam never has and never will see it that way. sam kneeling down on his knees ready to sacrifice himself for his brother…his last words nothing but utter love and faith…did for dean what nothing and no one else ever could….I think dean finally has conquered that darkness within, that self loathing…and believes in himself…which I believe is necessary to beat the D.
Sam and Dean’s walk in ea. other’s shoes, I believe was a very important and relevant part of their story….and though I didn’t like seeing them at odds…..I understood why it was so important, why the journey they took was so important…..where these brothers are now….this is truly the first time they’ve been here….because as awesome as the early seasons were….the one thing that has always lacked in their relationship was an understanding of the other’s perspective…and with that, that is where most of the miscommunication and misunderstandings came from…sometimes you have to wear another person’s shoes to truly understand where they’re coming from…..
We keep noting how the boys are on the same page…of course they’ve been on the same page in prior seasons but I felt like it was more same page..different book….it took 11 seasons and a lot heartbreaking to get there…but for the first time the Winchesters are on the same page of the same book…..and though I didn’t enjoy the first half of s8…..I do very much enjoy the results 🙂
[quote]Basically because Dean saved people because he chose to and Sam saved people because he had to or something along those lines[/quote]
I think it was an interpretation of a certain part of the fandom 😀 Because Kripke never said that
That’s precisely the way I saw it.:)
There is a difference between us knowing and sympathizing with a persons point of view due to good (or manipulative) writing and a person being internal or external. Sam wouldn’t talk about Jess to Dean but we saw where he was in both dreams and in sympathetic writing. Similarly we saw how Dean was dealing with the death of their father – he wouldn’t communicate with Sam but he took a tyre iron to the car. That was good writing. And in both those situations the brothers were ALSO trying to communicate with each other. Nowadays Jess is a ‘you are bad with women’ punchline (instead of understanding how awful Sam’s life has been when he tries to make a life for himself with people who love him) and the car …. well Sam realized Dean really WAS a demon when the car wasn’t the most important thing to Dean.
So the internal / external business is basically in the words the characters communicate to each other, not what the show gives us outside of that.
If we are going to go with current writing as showing the brothers then Dean is extremely good at letting Sam know how he feels about everything, he also tells Cas and Charlie and Benny and Bobby and Cole. In the meantime Sam has been barely allowed finish a sentence about how he is feeling since about Season 7 – even Charlie, who is such a great listener to Dean’s problems, interrupted Sam to tell him what SHE thought he (Sam) was feeling when he finally opened up to her a little (shut up and listen Charlie). It got so bad that, for a while there, Sam’s conversations, where he spoke at all, were a long series of him being interrupted by other characters telling him what he was feeling, or what he did. Sam has very occasional bursts, like Sacrifice and The Purge where he just can’t contain himself any longer and then multiple episodes where he says nothing at all. Sam is no longer (if he ever was) the chatty one in this relationship.
ETA: Thinking about it I have to admit that being interrupted is also not an indication of being an internal or external person, it is more indicative of how little faith Sam has left in himself that he allows other people to interpret him and misinterpret his actions without calling them on it. You get to see by his reactions how he feels, but often the other person doesn’t notice.
Subtlety thy name is Sam. Good read SugarHi.
.Hi Samandean and Didi (welcome) : I agree that season 8 & 9 were poorly written as to Sam’s POV. I agree that Carver wanted to explore the relationship between the brothers but did a poor job of ripping it down because it was based on contrived conflict and lack of communication instead a real hardcore articulated needs and fears, feelings. It was excruciating to watch at times. Carver has done a much better job at rebuilding – parts nd end of season 10 and all of season 11 so far. We did hear little of why Sam did not look for Dean and abandoned Kevin. Thus it seemed uncharacteristic and difficult to understand. I recall the scene you describe: “Instead, we got a Sam who calmly continued eating his chili then quite casually said “you’re right, I dropped the ball on Kevin. Let’s go find him.” I remember thinking : What that’s it?????? Sam just seemed to be drifting quietly through like he was in the zen zone and it was hard to understand: Dean I did not look for you because we agreed not too….. okay lets find Kevin…… When this is over I’m going back to my dog and girl….. he even described Amelia to dean in a lackluster fashion, shes great, I’m lucky… and was so passive with Amelia’s father. it all seemed so blah and emotionless. Then he took on the trials and quietly suffered through the decimation of his health and said nothing like he was nonchalantly, stoically waiting to die. There was a depressive quality to the Sam in the whole season and that’s why I came up with the only explanation I could think of. In season 9 he was Gadreel and normal Sam not knowing he was possessed by an angel, then he was partially depressed Sam claiming he was ready to die and then angry immature Sam saying hurtful things and storming out of rooms without stating his feelings in the intelligent manner we know he is capable of doing. Your right we understood why Sam was upset but were not shown it. Season 9 was my all time least favorite for that reason along with the contrived manipulated discord between the brothers and I did not buy the whole Dean trusts a demon and takes on the MOC. I think the MOC story was uncharacteristic and also contrived so Dean could walk in Sam’s shoes and Sam can save Dean at all costs. I just needed a better reason for Dean to have taken this on. You are also right that my take on all this is a retrospective summary based partially on connotation of the actual action. This season is so so on track with characters, POV, and myth arc and hope it all continues.
i’ve just read the transcript of wnttak.
Sam: I guess um ..I guess something happened to me this year too. I don’t hunt anymore.
Dean makes a comment about Sasha Grey going legit and Sam tells him she made a Soderburgh movie.
Dean: No. You. Sam, you quit?
Sam: Yeah, yeah, I – you were gone. Dean, Cas was gone, Bobby was dead..I mean Crowley even shipped kevin and meg to parts unknown.
Dean: So you just turned tail on the family business.
Sam : Nothing says “family” quite like the whole family being dead.
Dean goes on about not being dead but being knee deep in God’s armpit.
Sam: Yes Dean, And as far as i knew what we do is the thing that got every single member of my family killed. I had no one-no one. And for the first time in my life I was completely alone. And honestly, I I didn’t have a roadmap, so yeah i fixed up imapala and i just drove…
Then Dean gives sam the after you looked for me….and sam says nothing, Dean begs the question Did you look Sam? Sam looks away. Then Dean says good that’s good now we always told ea. other not to look for the other…of course we always ignored that because of our undying love, but not this time …right sammy?
First off if you really pay attention…..Sam had repeatedly told dean he thought him dead. So I couldn’t quite understand why dean would ask if he looked for him…but then i put it off to dean not really listening to sam. dean knew he wasn’t dead, so he’s not considering that sam didn’t know either….instead he’s convinced himself that sam simply never bothered with him. But if you listen to Sam and watch the scene again….Sam never actually admitted or denied that he didn’t look for dean. He turned his head away. So we can conclude that we really have no idea what happened to sam when he admits to dean above that “something happened to him too”.
given that Sam hit a dog and given his confession to amelia that when his brother died, he imploded he ran…..”what does imploded entail?” imploded is a strong, serious word that sam used to describe what happened to him prior to hitting that dog.
Robbie Thompson admitted that something did happen Sam but we weren’t allowed to know what that was…Carver didn’t want it. Carver instead used subtlety to imply something more happened with Sam than we’re seeing…and he let us know more than he showed it…..but i think i get why.
I don’t think Carver wanted the audience to see what happened to Sam because he wanted the audience to have the same gutteral reaction to Sam’s “so” as Dean did. The audience at that moment was Dean winchester. We saw and felt and learned what he did at that moment and it made the scene all the more gut wrenching. I think if we had seen more than we did, i really don’t believe the impact would’ve been as strong for the audience as it was.
It was organic and fluid too. As I recall, I’ve not seen a single post that regarded Sam’s actions in Sacrifice as surprising or out of the blue….Most people weren’t surprised at all by how emotionally broken sam truly was….and i believe it’s because we’ve been seeing the signs throughout the entire season…..
Whether or not fans liked or disliked how Carver wrote the boys……it seemed to me by most of the posts i’ve seen that for the most part, people totally understood where sam was coming from and why….and whether you liked the way the story was written or not….i believe it’s because most of the viewers saw the signs all along, even if they didn’t notice.
Oh yes they are clever at the manipulation it was just wrong action , wrong thing to manipulate peoples emotions over for me. And I found the anti victim storytelling disturbing which why I find season 9 so offensive.
I even stopped watching the show after season 9 and returned to it after a year.
[quote]And I found the anti victim storytelling disturbing which why I find season 9 so offensive.[/quote]
I agree. That, and the fact that the second half of S9 featured the brothers at odds the entire time, is why S9 will always be my least favorite.
Me too, followed closely by season 8 and all the OOCness.
Ah but some of us fans are not so easily manipulated. I, like many here actually watch the show. I understood why Sam said what he said. If you listen to the dialog and not just Dean’s reactions it was pretty clear. But I do understand that some fans only see or hear what they want to. Fans that don’t like Sam are not going to like Sam no matter what he does or says. He could single handedly defeat the Darkness and save everyone and that tiny portion of the fandom will cry foul. Just like in SS some fans were outraged that it wasn’t the big showdown between Dean and Sam as the vessels killing each other (or Dean killing Sam preferably) and the show ends forever. I can’t worry about how some fans are going to perceive Sam’s decisions. I can only enjoy the show or not depending on how I feel about what I see..
Did the writers have any idea the outrage from a portion of the online fandom? Possibly but look what happened. It’s 3 seasons later and fans are still talking about it. Good or bad it sure made an impression.
I see your point cheryl and can’t agree more with what you are saying about that part of a fandom, and I read some of such opinions this summer and they were so preposterous that I couldn’t help laughing. Though I’m still angry at being manipulated in such a way in season 9. It was cheap. The similar kind of manipulation took place in seasons 4 and 5 but I understand the purpose there, it was to build the suspence, in season 9 it was meaningless.
But most of all I liked some of the opinions published in the first part of season 8 where people at first were trying to prove that the real hero of the show was only Dean, and then when it turned out that it would be Sam who would be closing the Hellgates, very loudly asked: “Why it is Sam who will be the hero [b]again[/b]? Hasn’t he done enough?” That was hilarious.
The fandom of this show can be so abusive. It’s really disturbing. Very splintered along the lines of Sam v Dean. I know the crazies are a small minority, but they are a vocal group. And the writers love pleasing them.
A friend of mine went to a con recently and asked what she thought was an innocent question – it apparently set odd all sorts of ugly between the Samgirls and the Deangirls. That’s unfortunate.
I admit I favor Sam. I find him more complex, sympathetic, tragic (meaning interesting and relatable). But that doesn’t mean that I hate Dean. I also don’t the blame the characters for the writers’ stupidity.
I really don’t get the Destiel thing. If that ever became canon, it would be show over! IMHO
Yeah I don’t get this Destiel thing either. Women crying and screaming for two men who aren’t gay. Perhaps they should check out anime. It has plenty of that out there.
Ah the D-word can of worms … *starts making popcorn*
I am sure I have a bingo card around here somewhere.
[img]https://40.media.tumblr.com/9e066a561c442c74f0598e0d71e2785f/tumblr_o0ws24qFoD1s4mm3ro1_500.jpg[/img]
can I distract you with a sparkly. Our favorite Moose/biker/rock star.
Hey I’m playing bingo here! … gets distracted …. what on earth? This is mid hiatus-beard-shave is it?
I think Jared is slowly getting himself back into character. One persona at a time. Life as a SPN fan is just a party isn’t it.
[img]https://36.media.tumblr.com/ec6bfffd9fc3d92af2acc14ae45d17a2/tumblr_o0wr52MvW21rgyu5mo1_540.jpg[/img] he started out as a mountain man
When I first saw that I didn’t recognize him! 😮
I almost didn’t recognize him either at first. He looks so bad ass, biker boy here. That mustachebeard or beardlette actually works on him! It chisel’s his jaw.
People watch the show different ways. Sam girls, Dean girls, Cas girls, Sam torture fans, J2 fans, Destiel fans are not more entitled in the way they are watching the show and they can’t say to the other either how to watch it. Even if I don’t ship anything I know people that do and they are not trouble makers. And for the rules of the site I think shaming any part of the fans are forbidden isn’t it not and all are welcome? But there are really bad apples also that give all the fans a bad name. Not all are like that and people should remember it.
– Lilah
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t dislike Destiel fans, the tame ones anyway. Just the deluded ones who try to spread the word of Cas / Dean like some religion and denouncing you as homophobic if you don’t believe them.
[quote]Sam torture fans[/quote]
*grin* :p
drat that was one of my Bingo words – it was the central one too! Spoiling my fun … *pout*
(and yes, I get that it isn’t all or even most of them. They can ship whatever they like … but they should keep it within bounds – like EVERYBODY else does / is forced to do. De**iel is a fanon ship.) I see Stephen Amell (I begin to be fond of that man) has put his foot down with a certain group of his RP shippers.
I put that up there just for you and BoGirlE. 😉
But yeah, I agree on that everything going overboard is bad and there is a lot of examples there from all around. Attacking the actors/actresses or their family is the worse in my book. 🙁
– Lilah
Yeah, I don’t get it either.:o
I’m just gonna go and watch Baby for the fifth time.
I think maybe i’m not being clear on what i mean and i apologize for that. first off let me go on record for saying that there has never been a single moment in the last 11 years that i didn’t understand sam or where he was coming from. my comments are not complaints. i just feel that overall when it comes to sam regarding himself….he internalizes. I agree there have been times early on that sam was open and wasn’t afraid to show emotion. sam very much wanted to talk to dean about his father. there were also times when sam wanted to talk to dean about stuff and dean didn’t want to talk. that has happened quite frequently from very early on in the series. sam wasn’t even allowed to talk about his mom…as we saw in avsc….which is why sam was never really invested in the hunt or avenging his mom…he never knew her and nobody ever talked to him about her…as he said, if it weren’t for a picture he wouldn’t now what she looked like…that means that neither dad or dean even described her to him. very sad. also sam was afraid to talk to dean regarding his visions….it took him a long time to confess and by rights dean did often refer to sam or his powers using the word…”freak”…so sam was very reluctant to talk to dean about anything related to those powers…as you know, sam never even told dean about the demon blood yed gave him as a child. sometimes we did have eps yes, in which sam reached a certain point that he just burst and he would tell dean what was going on in his head….but it had to be when sam reached his limit…and sam as you know has a very high tolerance for dean’s ire. Sam has taken so many hits from dean, both physical and verbal over the years….like bloodlust..or the girl next door…and there are too many times dean has taken out his frustration on his brother to even count….and sam took the hits most every time without complaint…without defending himself….so in that way i think sam internalized…there have been moments when sam didn’t talk to dean for fear of what dean would think of him…that started as early as s1 and it did go into the gamble years as well. in hello cruel world dean scolded sam for hiding his hallucinations and sam openly admitted that he wasn’t hiding them, he just wasn’t talking about them. you two had enough on your plate i’d just thought i’d grab hold of the handlebars you know.,,,so again, when it comes to sam, he does keep things inside…especially if he believes that it would be a burden on his family. dean would check in once in awhile and ask how sam was…and sam would simply say he was managing….but he never gave any detail as to what was truly going on inside his head….we didn’t really get to see it until repo man.
whenever sam felt in some way that what he said would disappoint or make dean look at him differently or become a burden….sam kept things to himself. even in when the levee breaks…sam told dean you don’t know me you don’t know me at all…..after dean called him a monster….now sam couldve explained what drove him to what he’d done….but he either saw no point or imagined dean wouldn’t listen or care…in sam’s hallucinations dean called him a monster and told him he always was one…..so i think sam internalized a lot because he feared what his brother would think of him.
there are a few factors that seem to influence why sam internalizes;….there have been so many times dean didn’t want to discuss something that sam just didn’t bring it up; sometimes it was based on sam’s belief that he would be a burden on dean….and most of the time i think it was because sam feared what his brother might think of him. and this is a big part of sam’s character that was introduced all the way back when show began.
sam and i have a lot in common….i as you know can be quite the chatty cathy…..i sometimes show emotion….i will sometimes speak my mind….but it’s selective speaking….and i hardly ever bother anyone with my problems…..i tend to stay quiet even if i want to speak up…when it comes to my sis…i too tend to take the hits instead of speaking my mind….so i get sam…. i think it’s possible to feel emotion and talk about other’s problems…but i also think it’s possible to keep quiet and keep it inside when it comes to oneself. ….which is what i feel sam does for the most part. 😉
i have enjoyed the discussion ….:)
sugarhi, I agree with almost everything you said here. So I think you are correct that Sam does internalize certain things. But the difference between S8-9 and the previous seasons is that the earlier episodes always gave some indication of what Sam was thinking, even if he didn’t verbalize it. We didn’t have to guess or assume. For example, in Hello Cruel World Sam overheard Dean tell Bobby that the one win they had was that Sam was managing even though his wall had been broken. It was perfectly clear even before Sam said anything that this is why he didn’t want to talk about his hallucinations- he didn’t want to worry or upset Dean. So I guess there are two separate issues- the degree to which Sam verbalizes or instead internalizes things, and the separate issue of whether the show provides Sam’s POV other than through his words. eilf’s post above about that makes a lot of sense. And it has been an interesting discussion. I always enjoy hearing different perspectives on my favorite character ever!
i know this isn’t really related to the topic at hand, but i must say most of this discussion isn’t anyway:p..this was gnawing at me and i was just compelled to share, You know as we are discussing sam, i’ve been going over transcripts so that at least i can back up anything i might say….and i was going over the wnttak transcript and when i got to the part when dean asked if sam looked….i was going over and over how asinine that question really is….i mean when you really think about it…not even the most inept of spn writers would ask this question…..and this was written by carver…,and then it dawned on me…..
i know carver has a tendency as a few of his writers do, to have a statement mean something other than what it sounds like it’s saying..that old double meaning. and this is what i’m talking about so bear with me…..
dean asked sam if he looked…did you look for me sam? and then he goes on to talk about the promise not to look…and at the time i thought it was stupid…but as i read it and read it and read it i realized for the first time why i believed it to be an utterly stupid comment by dean,.,…in all the years we’ve watched, at no point has sam or dean ever made reference to the fact that if one of them went missing they wouldn’t look for each other..that notion is absolutely ridiculous..i don’t care who’s the showrunner or who the writer is….there is no way sam and dean would make a pact like that…..
and that’s it in a nutshell, it’s why alot of fans thought the boys were ooc in season 8…and it occurred to me that in no way would the boys make a pact like that….but as winchester history shows, the boys would make promises not to bring ea. other back….which is what i’ve clung onto and being posting all these years noting over and over that sam thought dean dead and kept the promise of not looking because why we he look if his brother is dead?
but i don’t think dean meant look for me…,as in search for me…because i don’t think the boys ever made a pact to not look for ea. other if they went missing. i think when dean asked sam if he looked for him….he meant did sam look for a way to bring him back? that’s why sam kept saying over and over ….dean i thought you were dead…and we made a promise…..the boys, given their history would most definitely tell ea. other not bring them back….but dean also has a tendency to break his own promises….
sam has always abided dean’s wishes and kept his promises…..now sam neither confirmed or denied when dean asked….but that would make sense..,because if he did try to find a way and failed, sam would feel like a failure and if he kept his promise….he feels like a disappointment, which is easier to take? having your brother see you as a failure or a disappointment? seems sam went for the latter either way.
i think carver is a clever writer, who may want the story to go a certain way, but he really doesn’t shatter winchester canon to do it,…….i really believe that carver purposely mislead fans…..and the more i think about it the more i’m convinced that dean wasn’t’ referring to LOOKING for him….he meant..,looking FOR him,,,as in looking for a way to bring him back,,,and since sam thought he was dead he was referring to sam looking for a way to bring him back from the dead….
dean’s anger stemmed from the fact that he believes sam didn’t try…promises made or not
Yes, that is how I always saw it. But in fact Sam asked Dean to not try to bring him back from the dead – he told him to go and find a girl and settle down. It is the reason why he thought it would be ok to leave Dean ‘at peace’ because it would be better than his own sojourn in the cage. And nothing Dean did got Sam out of the cage any more than Sam got Dean out of Purgatory (or back from Hell). Soulless!Sam saw what we were shown (which is less than we understand), that Dean was settled down, had a family, a job he liked and a friend he could go to the pub with. Sam would have those memories when he got his soul back. Dean was outraged when Soulless said he thought Dean was better off in his new life, and Sam should have grasped that. And if Sam was in normal health maybe he might have understood that. But he clearly wasn’t.
I think that Sam felt that he was allowed mourn for a dead brother like any one else gets to do. He had, in a way, ‘earned’ it by his stint in the cage. He was alone and with no way of finding Dean. If you spend your life convinced that someone can’t be dead, when to all intents and purposes they are, you get stuck in mourning- limbo. Sam wasn’t really trying to be happy. I think for a while he wasn’t even trying to survive. And the flashbacks we see of him he clearly ISN’T happy. He is trying to mourn but on some level he knows that isn’t allowed. He doesn’t get to be a normal person grieving.
In Sam’s head that was ‘their agreement’ it just wasn’t an agreement that Dean understood. Nor has any of it ever really been fixed between them.
When Sam went to Hell Dean didn’t stop looking for a way to bust him out. Even tho Sam made him promise to live the apple pie life he wasn’t going to let it go. Dean would never truly honor any pact that would leave Sam behind nor would he believe deep down Sam would really keep it either out of their deep love for one another.
That’s what Dean [i]said[/i], that he never stopped looking for a way to bust Sam out. Unfortunately, we [i]saw[/i] the exact opposite. At no stage did we see him do anything to bust Sam out. Of all the statements that Dean has made, that is the one that should most be taken with a serious grain of salt.
I admit I always took Dean’s I looked to get you out with a grain of salt.
D:”I tried to find a way to get you out, Sam”.
S: “How did Bobby react when you asked to search his books”
D: I didn’t ask Bobby.”
S: “Did Cas threaten to stop you when you asked for his help?”
D: “I didn’t ask Cas.”
S: “Other hunters must have had a fit when you looked to them for ideas.”
D: “I didn’t talk to other hunters, I was out of the business.”
S: “How did you explain torturing and questioning demons to Lisa?”
D: “I didn’t track down demons. I couldn’t bring that back to Lisa and Ben. I did something much more harrowing. I went to the LIBRARY Sam! The LIBRARY!”
S: “Wow, that must have been terrifying, flying to libraries that might have archaic texts about opening the Cage.”
D: “I didn’t leave town. I was making a family with Lisa and Ben. Plus flying SHUDDER. No I went to our local library. I even asked to see the old card catalog in case something hadn’t gotten transferred to the computer.” And I GOOGLED, SAM. I Googled as hard as I could.”
S:???
D: I even tried EBay! Someone said they had something called [i]The Book of The Damned[/i] for sale, but really? The Book of the Damned? That one had to be a hoax. Plus they pulled the auction, so what could I do?”
S: “Well thanks for the effort.”
a grain of salt and a margarita….:D to be honest i never believed dean at all when he said he looked for sam. i always saw that as a statement made in anger towards sam ( who he didn’t know was soulless at the time) because he didn’t tell him he was alive all this time.
to be honest, when you look at the montage of dean and his past year with lisa at the beginning of exile on main street, all you saw were scenes of dean living the life of domestic bliss. there was no scene of dean looking upset or reading a book or even drinking….they showed scenes of him at a bbq, putting ben to bed, making sure the house was locked up, liplocked with lisa…but at no point do you see dean doing anything that had anything to do with hunting. in the montage, baby was put under a tarp….and that was it…dean left the hunting life behind. At most you saw a shotgun under the bed…
when show started he was living a normal life, he had friends….he didn’t even discuss his brother. And when sam did come back, dean initially chose to stay with lisa and ben. he flat out told sam he wasn’t hunting with him anymore.
with sam’s flashbacks we didn’t really see sam experience the happy family life. Yes he got what seemed to be his first birthday cake and that made him happy….but honestly the rest of the flashbacks were all pretty much from amelia’s pov and real downers….they were about how broken she was….he was drawn to her because he recognized the same pain and grief he was feeling. We never saw sam truly being happy….when we see sam meet her father, her father flat out told him what sam already knew…they were together because they were broken…hell amelia said the same thing….their bond wasn’t based on love, it was based on grief….they didn’t share happiness together like we saw in the montage of memories of dean and lisa…with pics around the house to prove it….sam and amelia shared sorrow, grief and loss….and that’s what kept them together…and when don came back, and sam realized she could be happy again….he left.
so i have to disagree with the statement that dean did everything he could to bring sam back…because what we were shown, we never even saw him with a book in his hand…..:(
We also never see Dean beating himself up about all the people who he could have been helping, the way guilt tripped Sam for not hunting. Look, I don’ think Dean was wrong to retire and make a life outside of hunting. He had lost everything to hunting and deserved a peaceful life. I do think he is a massive, massive hypocrite when Sam makes the same decision.
Seriously, this is Dean’s big lie ? [quote]Dean: Good for who? I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.[/quote]
A character, Dean in this case, is a liar because the show did not add a scene – did not give you an image of Dean with a book in his hand? Do you think Sam is a liar when he told Dean that he tried to get him out of hell in Season 4. We never saw Sam doing anything he said he did to help his brother in his flashbacks. What we saw was Sam having sex with a demon and drinking demon blood. Does that make Sam a liar? I would say no for the same reason Dean is not a liar.
Dean did want his brother back and was not happy.
6.01 Exile on Main Street
Dean: you been back practically this whole time?! What, did you lose the ability to send a friggin’ text message?!
Sam: You finally had what you wanted, Dean.
Dean: I wanted my brother, alive!
Sam: You wanted a family. You have for a long time, maybe the whole time. I know you. You only gave it up because of the way we lived. But you had something, and you were building something. Had I shown up, Dean, you would have just run off. I’m sorry. But it felt like after everything, you deserve some regular life.
Sam never allowed Dean to know he was alive. Sam made the choice for Dean because he knew that Dean would choose him. Even soulless Sam knew that! Dean says he wanted his brother back and Sam acknowledges that if he just showed up at the jump Dean would have run off with him. This is the script !!!!!
Yes, Dean said he would go back to Lisa and Ben, he lived with them for a year and felt something. Sam stated the same thing to Dean, he said after this was over, finding Kevin he was going back to Amelia. Dean even gave him the opportunity to leave without any hard feelings, gave Sam the choice to make his own decision about being with Amelia: 8.10 Torn and Frayed
Dean: I don’t know. I’m just tired of all the fighting. And, you know, maybe I’m a little bit jealous. I could never separate myself from the job like you could. Hell, maybe it’s time for at least one of us to be happy.
Sam: What, you being such a big hugger and all? She does make me happy, and she could be waiting for me if I went back. I’d be a very lucky man if she was. But now… with everything staring down at us, with all that’s left to be done… I don’t know.
Dean: Well, I do know this – whatever you decide, decide. Both feet in or both feet out. Anything in between is what gets you dead. Sam then takes a walk.
[quote] We never saw Sam doing anything he said he did to help his brother in his flashbacks. What we saw was Sam having sex with a demon and drinking demon blood. Does that make Sam a liar? I would say no for the same reason Dean is not a liar.[/quote]
In fact we saw. Why are you forgetting that Sam went to the crossroad and offered himself for Dean without trading for years of life? kind of selective memory, isn’t it?
[quote]SAM
I don’t want ten years. I don’t want one year. I don’t want candy! I want to trade places with Dean.
CROSSROAD DEMON
No.[/quote]
Not everybody can remember everything from the show disgruntled. Point what Spnlit tried to say was that Dean didn’t lie on what he said and I agree. I think 10 and beyond seasons have proven that he will save Sam. Heck, he is even blamed doing just so time and time again. And I wouldn’t talk about bias when you look at the comments here. Anyway, I agree with Spnlit. And I don’t see Dean hypocrite either because their lives change time and time again. And I am actually glad that the brothers don’t seem to cling to the past that much. They just move on.
Lilah isn’t it better to discuss the point when there is all the information available (or even more information available)? So Spinlit didn’t remember the sacrifice we see Sam trying to make, that’s ok, it is remembered now, it is a valid point. I notice that you say ‘Dean will save Sam’ where the other points were ‘they will save each other’.
(Edited)
Well, “sigh” because I was answering the matter for Dean saying he looked for Sam and people were saying [b]Dean[/b] was lying. Of course I should have answered it, “they will save each other” because I clearly indicated somewhere on my post Sam doesn’t save Dean? Or I answered a sentence concerning Sam?
[quote]Seriously, this is Dean’s big lie ?
Dean: Good for who? I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.
A character, Dean in this case, is a liar because the show did not add a scene – did not give you an image of Dean with a book in his hand?[/quote]
I also didn’t note about the information given but how it was done and indicated. I think that is also pretty clear on my post.
[quote]”Not everybody can remember everything from the show disgruntled. Point what Spnlit tried to say was that Dean didn’t lie on what he said and I agree.”[/quote]
But to your question, I will never believe that they won’t save one another in the end because that is how it is and they are. And that is what I love about them. Anyway, bowing out of this conversation. I think I made my point perfectly fine.
– Lilah
I’m sorry if I sounded snarky, but I replied on an unedited post, which sounded a little bit different. Once again, I’m sorry
Hi Disgruntled, it is difficult when your response no longer reflects what the post originally said isn’t it 😀 (I am assuming that is what you mean?) I am a terrible offender for changing my posts until they say what I wanted them to say. I left Percysowner responding randomly to something my post no longer said last week (though I did put it back so hers made sense 😀 ) But it is hard on the person left dangling!
Regarding this entire conversation, I think a lot of people don’t get how often the phrase ‘Dean would do anything to save Sam’ is used and how often it is used to imply that Sam wouldn’t. Or how irritating it is. Even [i]Jared[/i] has noticed how often that spin is put on that idea and has even protested it (and it is rare that Jared does that). Sam has gone to bat for Dean as often as Dean has for Sam. And they have BOTH, on occasion, failed to save the other.
ETA: I hope it is clear that I am saying I can see the POV of both the post changer and the changee 😀
[quote]I hope it is clear that I am saying I can see the POV of both the post changer and the changee[/quote]
In fact it was my fault, I didn’t reload the page before sending a reply.
[quote]Regarding this entire conversation, I think a lot of people don’t get how often the phrase ‘Dean would do anything to save Sam’ is used and how often it is used to imply that Sam wouldn’t.[/quote]
It was exactly my point through the whole thread. I’ve been trying to underline, that the show has always been demonstrated, that Sam would do the same for Dean, and even more (Dean sold his soul for Sam, but Sam was going to do the same, Dean went to Hell to save Sam, but Sam did the same once physically and twice mentally returning his memories and letting in his hallucinations), and it certainly not their fault, that sometimes they can’t save each other and it’s not their fault, if they had known how to do it, I have no doubts they would have done that.
Thanks for clarifying your pov anyway. 🙂 Might I suggest (not to you specifically but in general) that since, at this stage, some of the discussion on ths thread is either angry, incomprehensible or playing devil’s advocate and so is only going to get more confusing and upset more people maybe we should all move on 🙁 This is one of those topics that gets everyone riled on a regular basis.
I agree and I guess I can honestly say I was guilty of that in trying to make a point by posting a false belief in order to get a response in which someone else actually made my point. That was very bad form and I do apologize…
You know it’s sucky because we’re not seeing ea. other when we talk. We read the words and how we feel when we write, isn’t always interpreted by the reader. If we were in a circle having a group talk and we can see and hear ea. other, I have no doubt that there would be a lot less misperceptions.
I’m with you on ending this discussion….I just had to make my apologies and clear up one last time that for years I am one of the people who have written quite the long winded posts I might add, going out of my way to analyze and understand both Dean and Sam Winchester. I might favor Sam more, but and the proof is out there….I have written post after post not only defending and voicing what I feel drives ea. brother, but also defending the show runners, most often carver, because of what I believe the overall story he is trying to tell is.
You are right…in an effort to make a point and ruffle some feathers…I actually pissed people off that I hadn’t intended to….one shouldn’t post when they’ve got nothing to do. 🙂 hope there’s no hard feelings by anyone….but I will bow out as I’m sure it’s probably what most are hoping for at this point.
but it has been an awesome discussion….:)
It was only one sentence (well two) that characterized the way that the boys show love that bothered me. I was tired and frustrated at several of what I thought were unfair digs at Dean that had been posted the last few days. No big deal, we disagreed. I don’t think anyone but me took issue, so no worries. Disagreements happen.
No, not selective memory just forgot it like Lilah_kane correctly assumed. Selective memory is not my mode of making a point. My point remains the same. Please further carry on the Dean Winchester is a liar and hypocrite conversation without me.
i guess the ridiculousness of my statement is indicative to the hundreds of posts I’ve posted regarding sam and his mental state in s8. Just because a scene isn’t shown doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. 😉
The amount of times I’ve said that regarding Sam in the last few years. It gets to you ….seeing something that is so obvious and trying to get others to see it too…that just because we heard it and didn’t get to actually see the event, doesn’t make it any less real …for either brother.
by the way, the statement I made above is not how I felt. I never thought dean lied.. I actually did believe him when he said that he tried….why did it say it then you ask? I guess it was to make a point….I knew it would ruffle a feather or two…it was mean and I apologize….it just started to get a little like a sam vs dean thing….and I just was trying to take the first step….saying something that would be bothersome, which I had no doubt I would do….and then try to prove a point….
i’m afraid it was bad form on my part to go this route….and for that I apologize….sometimes I feel like the only way to get someone to listen is to piss them off…..:D I hope you can forgive my devious behavior and I really hope it doesn’t prevent you from discussing future posts with me….I know I was bad…I promise I won’t do it again…
That being said, I do have to say, as much as I love dean…he has been known to be a hypocrite on quite a few occasions. I think what gets to the heart of samgirls is that both sam and dean have committed the same act for the same reasons ….and sam has gotten the short end of the stick….
Sam did exactly what dean did and sam is seen as the one who abandoned his brother….by his brother …and those who favor dean and tend to view things from dean’s perspective…even dean’s skewed perspective. That’s hard for sam fans to bear. :(… it happened again with benny….. I love dean…but his worst flaw is his and I hate to say it, but it’s his hypocrisy….it makes me want to punch him in the nose.:p
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, since I think I might have folks’ attention…..Sam and Dean love differently….they always have.
Sam shows dean his love by abiding dean’s wishes, keeping promises…whether sam likes it or not….and for the most part…he does not.
Dean shows his love by breaking promises and not abiding by sam’s wishes.
But no matter how you slice it….it’s love….
Again, spn…..my apologies for taking a dubious route in trying to make a point…..hope you don’t hold it against me.
oh and it’s minor quibble…but sam never said he wanted to back to Amelia when it was all done. He just said he didn’t want to hunt. He talked about finding something when he was living the normal life, but there was no mention at all of Amelia. Sam would never have gone back to Amelia even if he did leave dean and hunting. It wasn’t about Amelia…it was about being normal. My personal opinion is that something Sam found while with Amelia…was the strength to go on….and I do believe he loved her, but wasn’t in love with her…I think he loved her for helping him…and I think he loved the normal life he had with her…..but he left Amelia before he even knew dean was alive. he left her when don came back….the relationship with her was never based on happiness or true love…it was based on pain and loss…and that isn’t a foundation that can last. Sam would never have gone to that motel…
sam didn’t go looking for Amelia….dean sent him to Amelia, with that false text….sam just happened to get busted when she spotted him in the window…and then I think it was goodbye closure sex. even with dean alive….sam and Amelia’s reunion didn’t feel happy at all…..I think the only woman sam truly loved was jess….;)
[post deleted ]Never mind. I shouldn’t post when I am tired.
Leah,
Again my apologies for trying to make a point in such a way that wasn’t above board. I was simply trying to point out that all isn’t black and white. Just because we aren’t shown something and it’s said and implied, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or didn’t happen. My confessional actually supports dean and sam.
And of all people that you would assume would boil dean’s love in that manner….that i’m a bit surprised to hear you say. I have spent so much time looking for the deeper meaning in why dean does what he does. I’ve written a paper that SOD published called a A Walk in their Shoes which she asked for, going in deep analytical debt the rise and fall of both brothers. I have repeatedly mentioned that both are flawed and these flaws are indeed part of what makes them heroic.
I hated Dean in the first part of s8..hated him…he was horrible and to this day I still fast forward over blood brother and only watch the sam /amela parts …and that’s just for the eye candy that is sam. I hated hating Dean…I love him…and it started then, that I really took the time to understand and look into dean…and I spent hours writing posts defending dean and noting what I believe drives him…and if you look back over those posts….the word love is in every single one of them.
again….love isn’t black and white either…there are levels and types of love. you can love and not be in love. there are certainly a zillion ways to show ones love….and believe me I have posted the many many ways in which both brothers show their love for ea. other.
The statement I made wasn’t reduced to that mere generalization , but when it comes to the “death” stories.. yes I confess that is how I saw ea. brother express their love.
Dean didn’t want Sam to do anything that would reneg on the deal dean made to bring sam back…so sam didn’t…in the end dean died and sam had to live with that guilt, which has been a driving force in a lot of decisions made over the years…right ones and wrong.
Sam asked dean to go back and live with lisa…yes a promise he kept…but he “the dying part” he said don’t bring me back..which dean couldn’t do.
Dean wanted to take the lead in s9 finale and sam said ok…his brother asked, sam obliged…he was sucker punched and again watched dean die…another time sam couldn’t save his brother..which I would think hit him hard.
From the Pilot we see Sam’s loyalty to dean…..Sam ran and went to college true….but Dean came back for Sam and when dean asked what he was doing there.. uh, the phone…dean’s reply was…would you have answered? So right there, it was obvious, at least to me Sam avoided phone calls from dean because he’s the one person he would in fact drop everything for. So dean came in person, said I don’t want to do it alone and sam went.
There are so many examples of this throughout show…while sam of course can and has made his own decisions and has in fact defied his brother as he is capable, there’s also that part of sam, that when it comes down to it…does what his brother asks….as we saw in s8, 9, and 10 most recently.
again, boredom and frustration led to me writing a post that wasn’t all true to point out the very fact that spnlit so eloquently pointed out…sometimes it takes a village to say the same thing in hopes that people might consider a different way of looking at things…..we’re not forcing anyone to …we’re just offering the option…and believe me….regarding dean Winchester…I have written many many many posts offering another way of considering his behavior…even when he was in fact being hypocritical and/or lying.
my apologies again …I guess like sam and dean Winchester….we all make mistakes.
That’s how I always saw it, just as in Dean looking for a way to bust Sam out of Hell even after he made the promise to let it lie. In the case of Purgatory tho I think Dean meant it both ways because Sam had no idea where Dean was or if he was even alive. I actually don’t see it OOC after all they’ve lived thru, survived and done by that point in their history to actually could make an agreement or pact to not look or try to get each other back . But I also think that they both would know deep down inside that they would never keep such a promise. (Kinda like when you’re a kid promising something while the fingers are crossed behind their back). At least Dean would feel that way while believing Sam returned the sentiment . Until he obviously didn’t. Hence the hurt. Keep in mind this is right after Dean got back after spending all that time in Purgatory looking for Cas and refusing to leave him behind. Benny and Dean could have booked out of there at anytime once they knew of the spell and located the portal. They didn’t need Cas for that. It was Deans loyalty and love (not that way -sorry Destielers) that kept him there. And after going thru all that when Dean gets topside he finds that when push shoved his beloved brother didn’t show that same loyalty and love in spite of that pact.
I forgot, did Dean try to jerk out Cas after Dean left the Putrgatory? I overlooked that moment.
Nope! Dean implied Cas was dead and made no attempt to get him out of Purgatory even though he knew exactly where Cas was. One interpretation of Dean’s actions towards Sam is that he was projecting his own guilt about leaving Cas onto Sam. I don’t blame Dean for not trying to break Cas out. As far as he knew there was no feasible way to do that, what with not knowing about Rogue Reapers who could be bribed (what can a Reaper who is also a form of angel be bribed with?) and Dean was severely traumatized. The problem is the utter hypocrisy of blaming Sam for “leaving me in Purgatory” while doing zip to not leave Cas there.
Exactly my thoughts. I never blamed Dean for his applepie life with Lisa and Ben, but Sam has the same right, doesn’t he? Dean quit hunting, so Sam has the same right, if it’s not Sam who has done enough, who has then? Dean didn’t make any practical steps to release Sam from the Cage, though he knew what was happening to Sam, Sam didn’t know what had happened to Dean. Sam was being tortured while he was in the Cage, Dean enjoyed the “purity” of Purgatory. Nevertheless, Dean and some fans bash Sam, forgetting that Sam entered the Hell three times for his brother – when jumping into the Cage, when accepting the memoriues of Hell[quote] TORTURED!SAM: (scoffs) Why is this so important to you?
SAM: You know me. You know why. I’m not leaving my brother alone out there.
(Tortured!Sam walks slowly towards Sam. He picks up a knife and Sam defensively points his gun.)[/quote]
And in Repo Man he gave his hallucinations in to save his brother.
But to some, Dean loves his brother more, because he read books. Indeed reading books for Dean is a real feat, even if he really read them 🙂
[quote]The problem is the utter hypocrisy of blaming Sam for “leaving me in Purgatory” while doing zip to not leave Cas there.[/quote]
I know you are entitled to your opinion. I just disagree. There was no hypocrisy. These were two different and separate situations and relationships. Dean did everything he could to get Cas out of Purgatory. The moral of that story as stated by the character, Cas himself is that Dean did do everything, not his fault, you cannot save someone who does not want to be saved. Dean lived by the rule of brother’s keeper, He always wanted that in return, and Sam is the only one he could reasonable expect would do that for him. Even Bobby was surprised that Sam did not look for Dean. Sam did nothing. This is undisputed for whatever reasons (not condemning Sam ). Dean was in a war zone fighting the bad guys 24/7. He came home shell shocked. He could not adapt back to civilian life. Remember the scene where he could not even make a choice about what to get from a vending machine? Dean just wanted Sam to do the same he would for Sam ….. look into what happened.
While they were in Purgatory, yes. Dean did everything he could to get Castiel out. However, when Dean was out of Purgatory, that was not the case. Dean knew where Castiel was, knew that he was alive, knew that it was possible to get into Purgatory and knew that it was possible to get out of Purgatory. Yet Dean did nothing. This is where the situations between Sam and Dean are similar. (Or moderately similar. Sam believed Dean was dead and so ‘did nothing’.)
Secondly, Dean jumps between wanting Sam to do similar for him and not wanting him to do similar for him. In earlier seasons, Dean didn’t want Sam trying to get him out of the deal and spent much of the season stopping him from doing so. He changed his mind at the last minute. Dean didn’t want saving from the MOC or being a demon. He didn’t want saving in ‘Faith’ and then changed his mind. He didn’t want to be saved after Metatron stabbed him. We saw how critical Dean was when he believed Sam made a deal to bring him back in season 5. There’s an awful lot of things that Dean doesn’t want Sam to do to ‘save him’, until he does want him to do them. Unfortunately, Sam never knows which one Dean wants on a particular day.
When the promise was made to no longer try to save each other, it made sense and it was necessary. What they had done to save each other led them to the Apocalypse and the possible destruction of half the world if not all the world. Was Bobby even aware that Sam believed Dean was dead? If not, then his comment makes a lot more sense. After all, he was one who (wisely) recommended the agreement in the first place.
The answer to your question Disgruntled is no. I know it’s hard to do…but watch SC and A Little Slice of Kevin again and you’ll see how Dean’s whole speech to Sam under the influence of the coin wasn’t about Sam at all, but really about Dean’s own issues with himself that he took out on his brother.
Dean told sam in that speech that he’d been lying to him ever since he got in his ride. But in truth, it was Dean who was lying to Sam. He was lying about Benny and he was lying about Cas. Dean told Sam that something happened to cas down there, that he gave up and he was dead.. Sam asked if he saw him die and dean said he saw enough. Dean knew cas wasn’t in fact dead, but dean did nothing to try to rescue him from purgatory once topside. He gave sam the impression he was dead and that was it. He also claimed in that little speech that benny was the only one who let him down….but it wasn’t sam who let dean down, it was cas who was the one who left dean in purgatory. dean spent all that time looking for cas only to find out that cas left him by choice…it wasn’t sam who left dean in purgatory by choice.
in a little slice of kevin dean tells cas I didn’t leave you down there…..the entire time dean had believed that he let cas go…that he left him there….and when dean got out and let sam believe cas was dead and did nothing to try go back and get cas…..dean was riddled with guilt …..it was his own pain and guilt he was feeling that he took out on Sam. When cas showed dean what really happened, that it was in fact cas who let go of dean and not the other way around…that cas chose to stay in purgatory as punishment, it was only then that dean guilt had disappeared…at least in regards to cas…..if you notice, after a little slice of kevin, dean didn’t rag on sam anymore about leaving him in purgatory…it really wasn’t brought up again until sacrifice when sam had to confess to a priest.
I also never bought that dean didn’t remember what he said to sam in that little coin induced speech…because in sacrifice dean told sam….look I know I said some junk that set you back on your heels….and the only thing that dean said to sam that truly would’ve knocked him on his heels is that benny was more of a brother than he was….plus dean was a little to quick in telling sam that he didn’t remember what he said…a sure giveaway that he remembered all of it. the other victims might not have remembered every detail but they did remember the anger if not their actions.
you can watch for yourself if you don’t want to take my word on it….but given what we know now, you might see things more clearly than the first or second time. 😉