Threads: Supernatural 11.05 “Thin Lizzie”
What is happening to Supernatural?? When did my horror show turn into a horror show?? For the second time in only 5 episodes, I was actually scared to the point of squirming in my chair and closing my eyes!
The opening scene with the two kids in their dark, spooky room; lights flickering; Sam going into the creepy (dark) attic alone; mom closing up the house (in the dark); then the pure white bedspread that was a dead giveaway for the impending blood splatter!
I was sure the creepy Lizzie mannequin in the corner in Len’s home was going to come to life, then Dean goes down the stairs to a dark basement and the lights of course don’t work. I noticed the music was particularly suspenseful throughout the episode. In fact, if you listen specifically for the background sounds, there’s white noise wind in the basement and eerie “creep up on you” chords in various scenes. Was I being pulled into the fright fest by the music? I saw other people on Twitter freaking out as well. Did you have the same reaction? Why are these season 11 episodes so scary after all these years of seeing ghosts, monsters, dark spaces and gruesome murders? What has changed?
The rewatch went much better than the first viewing, thankfully. I knew when and where things were going to jump out of closets so I could watch the show for content, clues and messages. I knew I wanted to listen for all mentions of Amara, the Darkness, soullessness and other obvious myth advancements in the dialog but I found another layer of meaning that really surprised me!
When I summarized season 10’s threads, looking back to see when we were first given the clues to the myth arc’s ultimate direction, I concluded that the biggest clues to the season came in a seemingly innocuous monster of the week episode “Ask Jeeves” 10.06. I was reminded of that revelation when I starting hearing underlying threads in “Thin Lizzie”, this season’s first pure monster of the week episode coincidentally placed at episode 5, almost the exact same timing as last season’s big clues. That history makes me want to take these threads very seriously!
Serial Killers
It seemed odd to me that Amara would “want to see where Lizzie axed her folks”. What interest could that be to the Darkness? An apocalyptic being from before time began is interested in a singular crime, a family drama that went bad? The clue came in Amara’s answer:
Len: Are you lost, or staying at the Inn?
Amara: I wish I were. I want to see where Lizzie axed her folks … Poor Lizzie. I’ve been reading up on her. Her parents sucked. ….Oh no, Lizzie definitely hacked them. You can see it in her eyes. Serial Killer eyes.”
Let’s first focus on the serial killer theme. Serial killers were mentioned a suspiciously high number of times in the dialog. Dean first mentioned it in the bunker, when he was trying to understand why Sam thought these murders were a case:
Dean: Wait a minute. I know what this is. This has something to do with your freaky fetish for serial killers.
During a later conversation in the car, Sam repeated the phrase:
Sam: Maybe it’s not our usual kind of gig. Maybe we’re dealing with a serial killer.
Serial killers are often profiled to be psychopaths or sociopaths. Quick research into the most common definitions of these conditions revealed that “Both a psychopath and a sociopath have a complete disregard for the feelings and rights of others. Both fail to feel remorse or guilt. They appear to lack a conscience and are completely self-serving.” 1 In other words, serial killers act a lot like the soulless killers in the past few episodes…and a lot like the amoral entity of the Darkness.
Since she was old enough to read books and watch history lessons on-line, Amara has expressed concern for the pain that people experience. In 11.03 “The Bad Seed”, she was disturbed that God allowed so much pain in his world
Young Amara: God made a world where people have to suffer, and then they die.
Crowley: Unfortunately.
Young Amara: But frankly, why would they want to live in such a world?
She was surprised, though, when Crowley described a world of pure evil, challenging “You’d really be happy if everyone… was evil?”
When Amara first met Sydney, Amara wanted to take away Sydney’s pain
Amara: you shouldn’t be driving. You could put your head through a window. I’m going to help you Sydney.
So Amara wants neither a world that includes pain nor a world of pure evil. Sydney described
“what it was like being with Amara. No hurting. No sadness. No memories. Amara took away the pain. She lightened something in me. I’m free. Before there was always this constant voice in my head. You can’t do that. It’s wrong. What if you get caught? Now it’s quiet. It’s just me and what I want. When you can do whatever you want you don’t have to get caught. And then you can really fly.”
Amara literally “took away the pain” by removing Sydney’s conscience (“When you can do whatever you want you don’t have to get caught.”), and making her completely self-serving (“It’s just me and what I want”). Essentially, Amara made Sydney into a sociopathic serial killer. Len said he felt the same urges building inside of him:
Len: I feel weird, man. Like something is hatching inside of me. Something dark, with wings.
Then later,
Len: I know for sure, if I’m not stopped, there’ll be another kill. I can feel it. Like a bubble rising up.
The town’s detective described Len as “harmless”, and indeed, Len’s activities and life seemed passive enough. Even when he lurked in the B&B’s basement for weeks, he said “I wasn’t hurting anyone”. So if Len’s nature was to be passive and peaceful, maybe it was a longer road for him to find a logical reason to kill.
Dean: Why hasn’t he offed anybody. I mean it took Jenna all of walking down stairs to slit her grandmother’s throat.
Sam: Maybe not everyone who gets their soul sucked out turns into a killer.
Dean: or maybe he just hasn’t gotten around to it yet.
The concept of people reacting differently to being soulless was established in 9.17 “Mother’s Little Helper”. In that ep, Sam speculated “Yeah, well, maybe everyone has a different reaction to losing their soul.”
He repeated his theory at the end of this episode:
Sam: It kind of makes sense, you know. People having different reactions to losing their souls. I did. Everyone’s got their own history, right?
Dean: Len loses his heart. Sydney loses her head. What are we looking for? – the cowardly lion next?
Sydney immediately taking up an ax made sense given her confession of tendencies to revenge and violence:
Sydney: I used to fantasize about killing her and now I’m living the dream.
Len was a happier person. He described having friends and fun before he became “a robot”. So soullessness manifests differently depending on the person’s starting point before their conscience is removed. Len suspects that he will become a serial killer, but it will just take longer than it did for Sydney whose mind screamed out with fantasies of revenge.
She couldn’t sleep because she would wake up screaming from nightmares of her past. She used alcohol to numb the pain of her memories (sounds a lot like Dean!). She welcomed being pain-free, whereas it frightened Len who knew what it meant to feel happiness. Sydney embraced soullessness; Len accepted it, but both it seemed would end up in the same place in the end – soulless serial killers.
Amara’s vision for the perfect world is one where there is no pain, not because everything is perfect but rather because everyone does what they want. They aren’t emotionless – Sydney felt euphoria and Len felt fear and panic, but in Amara’s perfect world, everyone is disconnected from their empathy, self-restraint, guilt or conscience. They can do whatever they want to please themselves because their mind has gone… quiet.
Soullessness is so Quiet
Recognizing that people reacted differently when they encountered the Darkness, Sam tried to get more “data” by asking Dean about his experience:
Sam: The darkness. I think we only know the tip of what she is, what she does to people. Len was freaked out by her but Sydney couldn’t get enough. The bliss she was talking about, you know. What was it like for you? Did you feel like that with Amara?
Dean: No, I mean it was quiet until she started hatching killers and rallying monsters to raise armies.
Dean didn’t answer Sam’s question…or did he? Dean did not say what he felt when he was with Amara, which is what Sam asked. Rather Dean said what his world was like before she became active. Oddly, Sydney described the Darkness using the exact same word:
Now it’s quiet
When both Len and Sydney talked about what it was like to be around or to be touched by Amara, Dean seemed both alarmed and enlightened, as if he just found the missing piece of the puzzle and could suddenly see the big picture that had previously been so elusive. It is absolutely not a coincidence that both Dean and Sydney used the same word to describe their worlds after encountering Amara. Amara seemed to have genuine concern for Dean when they first met, just as she had for Sydney (“I’m going to help you Sydney.”)
At this point in their encounter, Amara “helped” Sydney simply by touching her. Sydney broke into spontaneous laughter, and later described her elation before Amara sucked out her soul as “Ecstasy Orgasm Chocolate Cake”. What if Amara also touched Dean and “took away the pain”. Is that when his world became “quiet”, silencing all those voices in his head that constantly screamed “you shouldn’t have done that”, “you can’t”, “don’t do it” and “it’s hopeless”? Has Dean been rendered “painless”, i.e. numb or uncaring by Amara?
This theory is strengthened by the constant reminders of the motions that Sam went through after the brothers knew he was soulless. Dean told him to “Fake it till you make it”, words that were reprised by Len. Sam also described being soulless similarly to Len’s confession: “I remember what it was like to do the right thing so I’m going through the motions for as long as I can.”
Could Dean be going through the motions?
Remember when Dean said he would be SoullessSam’s Jiminy Cricket? Dean said he would ‘set all the rules’ and be Sam’s conscious for him. I was reminded of that episode when Dean said the following very strange thing to Sam in “Thin Lizzie”:
Dean: We can’t kill him because he hasn’t done anything yet.
Sam: We don’t want to kill him. We want to save people, remember?
Dean: Right. Your new rules.
Sam even thought that was weird.
Dean thinks “saving people” is a rule? Have you also noticed how often Dean has asked Sam what they should do next? Sam doesn’t usually call the shots, but Dean has seemed unusually interested in Sam’s opinion lately. Then there’s how bluntly Dean blurted out to harsh truth to Len about him being soulless…
of course, that could just be Dean being Dean… but it also seemed weird that a few weeks ago, Dean didn’t want Cas to heal him. In 11.03 “The Bad Seed”, Dean first shied away from being healed:
Castiel (gesturing toward deans injuries): Dean, I can fix that.
Dean: No, no, no. No, no. It’s fine, Cas. Besides, I had it comin’.
Was Dean reacting in some way to being able to feel pain? The reticence to being healed by Cas was reinforced at the end of 11.04 “Baby”:
Dean: We’ll get Cas to fix you up.
Sam: Only if he fixes you up, too.
Dean: Okay, mom. Let’s go home.
Sam: You know what? We are home.
Dean: Come on. Come on. Ahh. There’s my girl.
Len said his thumb being ripped off hurt “like a mother” but he didn’t care. It was just…fascinating, in a Spock kind of way. Was Dean also interested in experiencing his own pain again?
All these threads – serial killers having no conscience and killing if there is a logical motive that seems altruistic (Dean debating whether they were justified in killing Len yet); soulless “shells” feeling no emotional pain and losing interest in their former passions (Len’s fandom hobby and Dean’s goal of saving people); reminders of everyone reacting differently to being touched by the darkness – all hint that Dean was touched by Amara, and while he may still have his soul (as Sydney did at first), he is cut off from its noisy, bothersome guidance.
Parents
There has been a deliberate, constant thread of parenthood in these first 5 episodes. Wednesday’s first three visual reviews for this season have identified unmistakable themes of pregnancy and parenting in cinematography. The episodes’ plots and titles have also overtly referenced reproduction. We were introduced to Amara in a hospital maternity ward, with her birth described in detail by her father. The second episode took place largely in a nursery with constant references to “the baby”. The third episode was titled “The Bad Seed”, insinuating the seeds of reproduction. Crowley assigned Amara a “nanny” who wore an apron and home schooled the little girl. He himself insisted on being called Uncle Crowley. The fourth episode was even titled “Baby”. Yes, we all interpreted that as referring to Dean’s nickname for his beloved Impala, but it also reinforces the childhood theme. In that episode, the sympathetic monster of the week was a mother would do “anything” to protect her children. “Thin Lizzy” then told the story of a little girl named Lizzie Borden who killed her parents, and touched on Amara’s unexplained interest in that pathology.
There have been constant references to motherhood in all of the season 11 dialogues so far as well (I’ve highlighted some of this week’s throughout this article). Dean calling Sam “mom” repeatedly reinforcing the idea of getting his rules from Sam, and of Sam being Dean’s moral compass. Dean also referenced the idea of working with family when talking to the Inn keeper:
“Working with family can be tough.”
Sam gave Dean a “Really? I thought you liked working together” look. Remember how Soulless Sam said it was “exhausting” trying to keep up appearances of sincerity and caring around Dean? I thought Dean’s remark here both reinforced his soulless persona and the family theme – two for one!
At the end of the episode, Sam sat on the steps and talked to the little boy about losing his mom and dad, and that he would survive. There are many more mentions of motherhood, parenting, and raising children throughout this season’s episodes thus far. Listen for them in your rewatches and bring us the quotes in the comments!
So why all the emphasis on parenting? With the unrelenting motherhood thread, I am convinced somebody here is a mother! The angels refer to God as Dad all the time, but thus far Amara has only referred to him as “God”, not Dad. So it doesn’t seem that Amara is God’s child. Death also said that the Darkness predated God, so it seems clear that The Darkness is not God’s “child” either.
Before the season began, I proposed a theory that God had some relationship to the Darkness, possibly that it was the “dark side” of the Universe’s “soul”. Now that we have more clues, could the Darkness be God’s equal, i.e. the Mother of the Universe?
Sydney said:
I’ve been praying and I know that she can hear me. I can feel it. She’s close. She hasn’t left me. She is a goddess. The darkness is coming. It’s so peaceful. It’s coming for all of us.
Interestingly, Sydney refers to Amara in the feminine, i.e. She’s close, She hasn’t left me, Goddess, but Sydney refers to the Darkness separate from Amara, i.e. The Darkness is coming, It’s so peaceful. It’s coming. That reinforces when Amara saw and talked to a separate entity in the mirror a few weeks ago. It seems safe to judge/predict/theorize/conclude that Amara and the Darkness are two separate things so that opens up more possibilities.
Is Darkness the Mother of Amara? A strong case could be made for that lineage. She seemed parental in the mirror and they referred to being locked away together. That would also explain why Amara was interested in Lizzie’s justifiable killing of her parents – Amara is researching cases where children end parents. It could also be implied by the death of the inn keeper’s mom – a crotchety mother dies for wronging someone; and the mother who reacted unemotionally to the death of her husband also ended up murdered for being immoral. Dead moms everywhere!
In 11.01’s Threads article and comments, I noted that Mike (meaning Gift from God) and Jane (meaning Like God) produced a child named Amara (meaning Eternal, unfading, beloved and imperishable). Is it possible that God created Amara to control the Darkness?
That would be consistent with the father’s name (gift from God). Equally possible though is that Amara is a goddess in her own right (“like God”) and was the first guardian of the key to the Darkness’ prison. After all, she now bears the scar of the Mark. When the mark was released from Dean it immediately appeared on the baby Amara. Is Amara the goddess who held the key before God created angels? Was Lucifer the second bearer of the key, not the first?
What if Amara is the mother of the Darkness? She is the Goddess who created The Darkness to take pain away from the universe. She controls it, and it is coming to bring “peace” to the world. She is now in control of the key to its prison. Could she let “it” out any time she pleases?
What is your favorite theory? At this point, do we even agree that someone is a mother?
Psycho Fans
I don’t believe it is a significant thread for the season, but I thought it was interesting that Len was portrayed as “superfan” that was “obsessed but harmless”. Look at all these references:
Dean: It was probably just some psycho fan who had seen too many slasher flicks”
Dean: probably just some crazed fan broke in, right?
Dean: You are a lizzie borden… I don’t think fan covers it
Len: Super FanDean: What about super fan, curator, living the bliss?
Len: I’ve always been odd, and quirky but I had a life, friends.
This “superfan” was characterized by a restraining order, the gag order not to talk about the restraining order, leading a live chat about the murders, the Lizzie blog, the ghost conventions and “I put this whole collection on eBay last night”. I was having real flashbacks to Becky in “Time for a Wedding”. I’m not sure what Supernatural’s new writer, Nancy Won, thinks about fans, but this seemed to be an odd way to introduce herself to the fandom. Did you notice this?
Truth
Truth is STILL a thread:
Dean to Len: it’s best just to go with the truth here.
Dean to Len (about the thumb thing): Well I’m not going to lie. That’s worrisome.
…reinforcing that Dean is not yet telling Sam the truth.
Just Wondering…
Bottled Toilet water? Why do you keep spraying it? All right, now I’m going to go check out the rest of the inn because now I got gramma all over me”
Cracked me up! Loved the comedic timing!
I also want to look up the words and backstory to the song that was playing in Lizzie’s bedroom when the kids were killed. I bet it has some interesting significance.
That’s enough mind-numbing (pun intended) analysis of this episode! What are your theories? Let’s try to keep the comments mostly spoiler free so no one has to be afraid to read or participate. Put spoiler alerts if you have mild or short spoilers. If you have serious spoilery info to share that shed’s light on these theories, how about popping over to the spoiler discussion page?
1 http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-difference-between-a-psychopath-and-a-sociopath.htm
screencaps courtesy of http://supernaturalfansonline.com/gallery/
- I’m the Co-Editor-in-Chief, Social Media Manager (Twitter, Facebook and Instagram), Live Tweet Moderator, reviewer and feature writer for The Winchester Family Business. Before joining the Supernatural Family, I worked for 22 years at a global consulting firm, but after years of long hours, high pressure and rigorous demands, I quit corporate life to raise my children. After my first Supernatural convention, I was driven to share my shock and awe in a two-part essay that The WFB was brave enough to post, and my second life calling, that of being a writer, began. My first published book, Fan Phenomena: The Twilight Saga was released in late 2016. Please share in my cross-fandom excitement by following its Facebook page @FanPhenomenaTwilight and my personal Twitter account @LSAngel2. You can read about this whole miraculous transition in my chapter in Family Don’t End With Blood, published in May 2017.
Hmmm, lots of food for thought, but one thing you said jumped out at me- the way Dean refused to let Cas fix him up. Maybe it’s because he fears that Cas will be able to read Dean’s memories of what The D said to him, or maybe it’s because Dean DOES feel that something is different about himself and he is not yet ready to share that info. I really doubt it’s that Dean is soulless because just as Dean immediately knew SOMETHING was seriously different about Soulless Sam, I think Sam would have immediately picked up on Dean’s lack of a soul. Moreover, if anyone would react to soullessness by readily killing others, it’s Dean. How many times has he referred to himself as a killer? I also would be really irked if Dean is soulless because A. we have repeatedly been assured that the brothers will be themselves this season.B. we just had more than 30 eps of Dean being affected/controlled by a supernatural force, and C. it would be an unoriginal retread of Soulless Sam. So I tentatively prefer your theory that maybe he has been affected by Amara’s touch the same way Sydney was- by having a feeling of peace or freedom from pain. After all, he had quite a bit of close physical contact with Baby Amara. The only thing that bugs me about this possibility is that, so far this season Dean seems so much like old pre-S8 Dean and I’ve been enjoying it immensely. In fact, I’ve been thinking that maybe one reason so many viewers think something is different about Dean is because we haven’t SEEN this Dean in so long that we forgot what he was like. So I would hate it if the humorous, lighter Dean that we’ve been seeing is merely the consequence of having touched Amara. That would mean that that Dean no longer really exists, and he will revert to the grimmer, harsher Dean from the last few seasons as soon as he is free of Amara’s influence. This is my long-winded way of saying that I have no idea what the hell is going on, but as usual I’m very intrigued by your theories!
[quote]I’ve been thinking that maybe one reason so many viewers think something is different about Dean is because we haven’t SEEN this Dean in so long that we forgot what he was like.[/quote] Not only haven’t we seen this Dean in a long time, but Dean hasn’t felt like himself in that long. Purgatory, being a demon, having the MoC push him to kill for over a year – it all really changed him (I think). The reason we haven’t seen the humorous Dean is that he hasn’t felt light-hearted in years and years. The poor guy has been through too much. I think I might be happy if Amara touched him and relieved him of some of his pain. It might be a “reset” back to himself a bit. It might be the writers’ way of giving the original Dean back to us!
And I forgot about baby Amara being able to affect Dean. He touched her a lot as he held her (although I think we always saw a blanket around her). Baby Amara had “little” powers so maybe she changed him a “little”? Still, I’m leaning toward a latent memory of adult Amara touching him. Much the same way as he at first mis-remembered Castiel’s interaction with him at the end of Purgatory, I believe he is now unable to accurately remember his interaction with Amara. I think we’ll get a “revised” flashback at mid-season finale.
[quote] I think I might be happy if Amara touched him and relieved him of some of his pain. It might be a “reset” back to himself a bit. It might be the writers’ way of giving the original Dean back to us![/quote]
I hadn’t thought of it as being a good thing but I like this idea. I think Sam could use some resetting too. They both carry around so much pain and guilt.
The song on the phonogram Is about Daisy Bell
There is a flower within my heart
Daisy, Daisy
Planted one day by a glancing dart
Planted by Daisy Bell
Whether she loves me or loves me not
Sometimes it’s hard to tell
Yet I am longing to share the lot
Of beautiful Daisy Bell
Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer, do
I’m half crazy all for the love of you
It won’t be a stylish marraige
I can’t afford the carriage
But you’d look sweet on the seat
Of a bicycle built for two
We will go tandem as man and wife
Daisy, Daisy
Peddling our way down the road of life
I and my Daisy Bell
When the roads and we both dispise
P’licemen and lamps as well.
There are bright lights in the dazzling eyes
Of beautiful Daisy Bell.
Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer, do
I’m half crazy all for the love of you
It won’t be a stylish marraige
I can’t afford the carriage
But you’d look sweet on the seat
Of a bicycle built for two
I will stand by you in wheel or woe
Daisy, Daisy,
You’ll be the bell which I’ll ring you know
Sweet little Daisy Bell
You’ll take the lead on each trip we take
Then if I don’t do well
I will permit you to use the brake
Beautiful Daisy Bell
Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer, do
I’m half crazy all for the love of you
It won’t be a stylish marraige
I can’t afford the carriage
But you’d look sweet on the seat
Of a bicycle built for two
But you’d look sweet on the seat
Of a bicycle built for two
Of a bicycle built for two
Of a bicycle built for two
For two, For two, For two, For two
Thank you so much for this. Nothing sinister here at all. I guess it was just a song of the times to set the era. The whole song is a marriage proposal. My grandmother used to sing this song to me when I was very young. I remember the chorus so well even having never heard the whole song. I think that’s why it resonated with me so much.
weird … my edit made a new post.
eilf!!!! It’s E! How’ve ya been? Glad to see you back ‘ish’
Daisy is the song sung by HAL in 2001 when the ‘robotic’ AI with the faulty emotions is being turned off by the astronaut because he (HAL) spent a fair chunk of the movie trying to kill him …
So there is a possibility that it is supposed to be an indication that Dean (since, yes, Dean does appear to be behaving oddly) is soulless or at least that his emotions have been removed in some way. Since we have the evidence of the attempts to kill his partner last season. The fact that one of them says ‘well NOW we’re in the Shining’ appears to be a direct callback to Demon!Dean in the bunker with the hammer since the comparison was obvious at the time.
I think we are supposed to be adding together all the times Sam gives him a ‘look’ when Dean doesn’t react in his usual way to something (usually regarding Sam) – there have been a LOT of these looks over the past 5 episodes but it could just be coincidence.
I loved this episode, first episode since Ask Jeeves that I have actively enjoyed, also it was actually creepy/scary (at the beginning) and like old-school SPN! Great first episode by a new writer! I hope she gets to write many more if they are all like this.
Of course it could just be referring to all the soulless people in the episode ….
The constant referral to TWO is interesting don’t you think !!!
Eilf!
Great to see you back. Have missed your comments a lot. 🙂
– Lilah
[quote]Daisy is the song sung by HAL in 2001 when the ‘robotic’ AI with the faulty emotions is being turned off by the astronaut because he (HAL) spent a fair chunk of the movie trying to kill him … [/quote] I totally buy this! I just had a feeling the music choice was important. I’m going to ask Jay/Chris. Jay usually answers me on Twitter.
Nightsky Thankyou again for making things clearer LOL I find this season so intriguing because its so frustrating. Looking back at rewatches I didn’t see The Darkness touch Dean but maybe she took away his pain through breath they were close enough for a kiss ?? Like SamDean I like this old Dean smartass/funny/and more relaxed (Sort of). I don’t think that would change much if The D has removed only his pain. Dean definatly has a soul.
This may explain some of the changes we see in Dean. I like your idea of The D being Mother We call alot of events ie tornados, earthquakes, rain,wind, snow a act of MOTHER NATURE
Really I don’t have much of a clue either hopefully next wk when Dean meets Amara we can all breath a sigh of relief and go AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH thats what it is
You’re welcome! There are so many possibilities this season. Each ep has been so well written. I’ve seen a ‘cohesiveness’ to the plot line in all 5 eps so far (I’ve liked all 5). There hasn’t been the up / down roller coaster of knowing there’s a myth arc / totally forgetting there’s a myth arc of some prior seasons.
I actually thought of “Mother Nature” but couldn’t come up with a way that it fit into the myth arc given what we’ve been shown so far. It is interesting, though.
love reading your ideas nightsky…always makes my head spin…in a good way. I think some of what you said makes sense and I’m interested in which way this story will go.
I’m not sure about Dean being touched by Amara and him feeling no pain, because in all honesty his behavior is no different than his usual behavior. The boys haven’t spoke of the night Dean was willing to kill Sam and I don’t know that they ever will. It’s not unusual though for the boys to move on past something like this though…The moment ea. asked if the other was alright seemed to me their way of saying all that needed to be said. This is normal Sam/Dean behavior sadly for us who would’ve loved to have seen that talk happen…and yet perhaps it still will….either way I’m ok with it. Dean not telling Sam the whole truth, unfortunately is also typical Dean behavior. Some habits are hard to break….it’s not unlike dean to keep things from Sam…it goes all the way back to him not telling Sam what his Dad said about possibly having to kill him. If in Dean’s head he finds a logical reason not to tell Sam something, he won’t. But this of course never works…because as Dean noted, he doesn’t like lying to Sam and he doesn’t feel right about it…and most every time Dean’s behavior changed because of his secrets until eventually Sam realized something was wrong and he found out anyway. I’m not sure that Dean’s slightly different behavior is due to Amara as much as it’s due from Dean being scared of what she said, what it means and not telling Sam the truth about it…..another bad habit Dean needs to change this season, and I do think he will, is denial…..I think he’s denying to himself what Amara’s words could mean…but the more he learns about her…like he did in this eppy, I think the more he won’t be able to deny things…and it’s going to start to manifest in his behavior and eventually he will say something to Sam. I have my own little theory going on which is kind of similar to what you mentioned in an earlier thread. It kind of ties why I’m not so sure that Amara “touched” dean.
I don’t think Death is dead. Logic prevents me from buying into the whole scenario that happened in s10’s brother’s keeper. If Death knows about the MOC the way he claimed to have, then it makes absolutely no sense to me that Death would demand that Dean sate the mark by fratricide, which is exactly how the curse of the mark was borne…by Cain killing Abel. The death of Sam by his brother’s hands would’ve ensured Dean’s complete turn to the dark side….(.isn’t that something? the mark/darkness…..The Darkness who is creating serial killers, who thrives and survives in the emptiness and devoid of conscience….the mark is the one luring the holder to kill….and the ultimate kill is that of a sibling, which would have turned Dean and he never would’ve come back…a true emissary for The Darkness who was still trapped?…) Unless Death is a fan of the Darkness…which I didn’t get the feeling from him that he was…I’m leaning towards it being a test for Dean. If Death wanted Sam he could’ve taken him when Dean was a demon and Dean wouldn’t have cared…he wouldn’t have brought Sam back…I think the test was to see whether or not Dean would be able to beat the darkness(Darkness?).. In the end Dean passed the test. He chose his family. He chose his brother. He chose love. He chose his own humanity. I think this will come to play in the boys dealing with the Darkness and them either destroying her or re-containing her back to the Empty, where nothing ever comes back from. This being said, the timing is off, which is why I’m not going with Dean being touched by Amara. He just proved to himself that he is stronger than his inner monster. The mark was lifted and he was released of the burden of the MoC, i’m not getting the sense that Dean had all those usual negative feelings that he usually has. Dean thinks that whoever that is, protected him….but what if it wasn’t?……what if she attempted to touch Dean, the one who released her, the former bearer of the mark, but someone or something else protected Dean….what if her little speech about them being bonded and that he’d never hurt her, he’d protect her was her manipulating him and trying to get in his head?
I’m not sure what the connection is between these two. It could be merely gratitude for him freeing her or it could be a feeling she has …..that deep rooted self loathing that she once sensed from him, that she in essence through the moc has been feeding off of. Personally, I’m not sure he feels the same way anymore, I think the whole point of him becoming a demon and bearing the moc and thus conquering it….has always been a test for dean….that he had to fight his own darkness in order to be able to beat THE DARKNESS.
Sam’s role has always been Dean’s moral compass and I still feel that will be a big part of what will help Dean now. Sam’s utter and never ending faith in his brother, I do believe will once again play a major role in guiding Dean when he’s feeling doubt or fear…..or if it is as you say and she did do something to dean….dean’s love for Sam would trump over all. 😉
I’m still leaning towards thinking that Amara and the Darkness are the same, at least for now. I figured that once the darkness was freed, she entered the first vessel that was born at that time, which happened to be the baby we saw in the first eppy. I kind of got the feeling that’s Amara’s fondness for Dean stems from the fact that she now bears the very lock and key that contained her in the first place….in her mind, she can no longer be jailed….and she has Dean to thank for that….that’s where I felt her connection to him comes from….as sam freed Lucifer, dean freed the darkness…as if he hadn’t taken the mark from cain, cain still would’ve been alive and well and keeping her contained…after all isn’t that why God said Cain wasn’t allowed to be killed? Like I said, time will tell as to whether Amara touched Dean or is just psyching him out. 😉
I do think that the answer to some of the boys questions lie in the cage and I do think that Sam’s visions are from a more heavenly/emissary of God type being. Personally, I’m leaning towards Gabriel:D I don’t think it the fellas in the cage….I can’t seem to find the logic in that….I can understand Michael being all upset…but Luci? As I’ve noted, I can only imagine him doing the happy dance…laughing his ass off at the fact that God got a big screw you ….the darkness released by humans, the very ones that he was commanded and defied God to bow down to….I can’t see luci wanting to help for being upset. Clues on what was said to him also lead me to believe it could possibly be Gabriel or possibly someone else the boys know taking different forms….with the Darkness free, I can totally see Gabriel wanting to help but needing to do it in disguise …after all he’s an archangel who was in the battle to contain her in the first place…..plus the conversation sam had with john in baby….how john noted he couldn’t fool sam and that he heard what the boys were talking about and didn’t want the life for them….i’m finding it hard to believe that Michael and luci could all of a sudden eavesdrop on Sam and Dean’s conversations…..the things that make you go hmmmm:D
I’m very anxious to find out what the real deal is. I love that it’s such a mystery…..hopefully we’ll find out sooner than later though…I can only take mystery for so long….:D who knows, maybe we both touched on something….
looking forward to your next article. 😉
Speaking of secret keeping – in the Baby episode where Sam admitted he was infected – if he’s just now telling Dean about that, what else hadn’t he told him? What story did he construct about how he came up with the cure for the rabids? Did he tell Dean about meeting Billie or about that specific vision that led him to the solution? Did he tell him what Billie said, that the next time either one of them dies that they won’t be coming back? That the reapers were pissed off over Deaths demise? Did he at least tell him about the Empty? Kinda a big one there. My guess based on Dean’s reaction to this latest revelation of Sam’s? Nope. And as far as The Darkness and Dean goes, he may or may not be remembering all of it as its all been kept intentionally very vague. But as far as Sam goes, he did remember what happened and he chose to keep it from Dean. The visions I can somewhat understand but the rest? Why? What would be the purpose? Why would Sam keep information of that importance from Dean. Especially when they are fighting this powerful unknown?
Maybe Sam is having just as much trouble processing what happened to him in the hospital as Dean is in his encounter with Amara. Maybe Sam isn’t sure if he is getting signs from God or if it was just hallucinations. Neither one has a road map for what is happening to them. I think we are 5 episodes in and the pieces are being laid out for the rest of the season. So far it is a thrilling little mystery that isn’t laid out for us in boring detail, but it sure is fun to speculate on.
I honestly don’t understand why you’re becoming hostile and defensive…I didn’t criticize dean….as a matter of fact I think I went out of my way, as I often do to understand dean’s motivations. Dean has bad habits he needs to change, so does Sam, it’s a process and they’re starting to take the steps…it’s not going to happen overnight, but it will happen…I think in both cases it’s due to the fact that they are not sure what to make of it….they don’t fully understand what they’re seeing and what it means….I’m sure eventually both will open up….Jensen did say at one of the recent cons that dean wasn’t talking but would soon start to freak out….that’s what I believe is going on….
I don’t character bash. I’m not unaware of either boy’s faults…its’ part of who they are….and I believe part of what they will be changing….in time. This is a general observation which i believe ties into dean’s current behavior. As for Sam, maybe Sam didn’t tell dean that when he died he would be thrown into the Empty because he didn’t want to freak him out. Maybe as they often do with ea. other, maybe he just didn’t want to worry him right now….i’m sure we’ll be seeing billie again, and i’m sure sam will confess to dean and give his reason for not wanting to burden him at the time…..like i said….they both have to change these habits….change takes time…at least they’re taking the steps.
this is certainly not a post that has any intention of causing a dean vs sam debate….i don’t play like that. 🙂
You misunderstood. I didn’t mean to come across as defensive or hostile tho in retrospect I guess it could be read that way. I keep seeing people writing about Dean keeping the secret of The Darkness and how wrong and typical it is of him to do so I found it interesting that the withholding of this information Sam had and wasn’t sharing was all but being ignored. Okay maybe ignored is the wrong word, perhaps a better word would be passed over. I didn’t see any discussion about all these different elements and how Sam not saying anything could end up affecting not just Dean but both of them and this was before we found out Sam didn’t let Dean know he was infected. Which means whatever he did tell Dean would be a false story by omission. Does this make sense? I’m not throwing shade at Sam in regards to it, I’m just confused as to where the discussion over this story point was/is. I’ve yet to really see any speculation into these particular secrets being withheld by Sam and how important that may end up being.
If I were in Dean’s shoes I’d want to know about Billie, the not coming back, the reapers that are pissed off and the Empty whether it was a vision or an actual entity. Reapers aren’t anything new but a reaper with a message from (enter your guess) is. And the Empty? Another supernatural dimension other than Purgatory or Hell… this is stuff I would want to at least be made aware of because in the grand scheme of things, this could be huge. Does that help you see where I was coming from?
And yeah, the mystery and the way this is all playing out? I agree Cheryl42! It’s great to speculate and so far this season has been anything but boring! I love the suspense and it’s killing me to know more. 😉
The bumper sticker says “Saving People, Hunting Things”. It doesn’t say anything about keeping secrets. I think this is where the “ish” comes in. Sam did try to talk to Dean about his “visions” and Dean kind of shot him down. Dean wasn’t very receptive of Sam getting messages from God or anyone, calling them part of his rabies infected brain. In typical Winchester fashion they clam up. But it looks like Sam tries to get to the bottom of it on his own in future eps.
I still don’t think Dean is intentionally withholding his encounters with Amara. I don’t think he has a choice, but as per Jensen’s interview as of ep 10 or 11 he hasn’t shared them with Sam yet. I think it is going to be a season long (or at least midseason) mystery that is the plot being laid out in these first early episodes.
Jensen does keep saying however that neither brother is afflicted with anything. So I am taking that to mean that Amara hasn’t “infected” Dean with anything. They are just connected by the Mark.
There is a long way to go yet and so far I am loving the ride.
“Ish” is right. 😉
I didn’t get the sense that Billie was a vision anymore than say Tessa was the many different times she appeared to them. That’s why I was saying I’m shocked Sam kept this meeting from Dean. I can understand Dean not putting a lot of concern into the visions but to think he would handwave the appearance of a pissed off reaper with a message when they are preparing to fight an unknown biblical consequence like The Darkness? Not so much. And Sam would know that about him as well so I’m surprised he didn’t push more. Dean might be uncomfortable or reticent to talk about it but now is not the time to worry about aggravating him. And actually now that I’m thinking about it – considering this situation they now find themselves in, I can’t see Dean blowing off Sams visions. The only thing that I can think of short of Amaras influence (which may or may not be ongoing) is that Dean is trying to keep Sam was freaking out while he tries to get a handle on everything that’s happening or he’s somewhat in denial. Or both. And Sam the same. None of it sounds like the responses that one would expect from two hardened, seasoned Hunters though. They both need a kick in the ass. 😉
the reason I mentioned Dean at all is because it was particularly his behavior that was noted by people as being somewhat “off”. Jensen had mentioned at the con why. Given Dean’s history of what happens to him when he keeps information to himself that for the most part would be better off if shared, we get what we’re starting to see now….it manifesting in Dean’s behavior. We’ve seen it when he killed Amy, we’ve seen it when he didn’t tell Sam about having to kill him, we’ve seen it when he allowed Gad to enter Sam and he didn’t tell him about it…..he keeps it to himself for what he feels is a good reason, but he doesn’t feel good about it…and eventually it eats away at him…..Dean’s off behavior, in my opinion, and perhaps I didn’t clarify, so I apologize, is because I feel he’s scared. He’s scared of what Amara said about being bonded and he doesn’t know what it means….he isn’t saying, as he often does and now he’s finding out more and more about her and it’s freaking him out even more…..it’s going to become apparent to us and to sam as the episodes go how much this is affecting him and it will eventually cause the bubble to burst and he will fess up. it’s typical Winchester procedure. the “ish”….as I said that needs to be worked on…but again….old habits and all.
I didn’t bring up Sam’s omission in all honesty because A) I completely forgot, which is probably what they are going for and B) even if I hadn’t forgotten, Sam’s not acting “off”, nobody has brought up his behavior or has speculated on it, so therefore I didn’t spec on the reason as to what it could possibly be….if this episode tied around Sam and his “off” behavior and the speculation was about him…then I of course would’ve offered my opinion on it. Knowing Sam as I do I can offer a few reasons why he didn’t bring up Billie …..Sam doesn’t want to burden Dean and scare him; Sam may not feel that Dean should carry that burden because he feels he’s the one who’s responsible for the Darkness, so he’ll be the one to take the punishment. In Sam’s mind, he won’t let Dean die, so it may not even be an option for him, see denial doesn’t only belong to Dean; or Sam may feel if that time ever comes, he’ll take the heat, as in his prayer which came after billie threatened him and sam….he said it’s on him…he prayed for dean to have a normal life…which I believe includes a normal death…that when the time comes, Sam goes to the “Empty”…not his brother.
As far as the story goes….I still think it’s possible that Billie provided the boys with the solution to stopping the Darkness…which is by sending it to the Empty where it could never come back from….if this is in fact the way the story will go, then I can understand why Sam would meet Billie in the beginning, and then we don’t see or hear from her again until we get closer to the end of the season. Of course Dean will get annoyed for Sam not bringing her up…..but I have no doubt that they will allow Sam a perfectly logical explanation as to why …..most likely one of the reasons I noted above.
Thanks for the clarification. It makes sense both for Dean and Sam, especially the growing concern and fear on both sides, except for the part where Sam wouldn’t share Billies appearance and message. Looking at it strictly from a military aspect, it makes no sense strategically if you are thinking in terms of war or battle and the disadvantage that not sharing that kind of Intel could put you in. I understand why Show is doing it (Probably? More or less?) but in reality given their circumstances it is a completely illogical thing to do. Let’s face it, they can both be a couple of dumbasses at the worst possible time so I guess it’s par for the course. It will be interesting to see how they address it later on. As far as Billie goes I thought Jensen said he will meet her Episode 9 or 10?
I hope that’s true…if billie does meet dean then pretty much most all of the secrets are out in the open….unfortunately I think sam will be waiting a tad bit longer for dean to spill, but then again, it’s part of the way for the story to unfold….I like that they don’t rush the storyline…..makes me believe it’s because it’s going to continue…..this certainly is a story that can last for a couple of seasons….let’s hope it does. 😉
Yeah. It’s too bad for Sam that Deans not being up front seeing as how they meet Amara in the very next episode and things look rather bad for Sam. I wonder, did Amara knock him out or did Dean? I’m curious as to how strong Deans connection to Amara actually is. Dean went after Crowley when he threatened her. Who’s to say that his reaction won’t be the same when she’s in danger now even though it’s Sam?
[quote]except for the part where Sam wouldn’t share Billies appearance and message. Looking at it strictly from a military aspect, it makes no sense strategically if you are thinking in terms of war or battle and the disadvantage that not sharing that kind of Intel could put you in.[/quote]
Alycat, I actually disagree that this is the most egregious “military” error that either brother is making. Dean is presumably withholding info about their actual foe, the one that they are engaged in battle with. So if he thinks he may have been compromised by his contact/connection with her, that is of far greater concern to the brothers than Dean’s ignorance of the Billie visit. Unless of course Dean doesn’t remember his interactions with the D. But to me it’s becoming clearer in the eps that he does at the very least feel some sort of connection to her, which would have a catastrophic effect on the brothers’ efforts to defeat her. As far as Sam’s failure to tell Dean about Billie, while that is certainly a mistake, how would it in any way change their strategy to fight the D? Will Dean want to try harder NOT to die now that he knows he might be going to the great empty? While there were plausible reasons (IMO) for why the brothers did not immediately share with each other all of the events that happened to them while separated during the first few eps, it makes less sense as time goes on. Which is why I worry that it will be the source of some conflict between the brothers, when we’ve had far too many identical conflicts.
Agreed SanD. It appears that Dean’s withholding of information may have some pretty bad consequences in the very next episode. Sam should absolutely tell Dean about Billie, that’s if he even remembers….. Dean didn’t remember his encounter with Tessa when he was dying, so there’s no reason to assume that Sam remembers Billie any better, but if he does he should still tell Dean sooner rather than later. But from a strategic or military standpoint it is far bigger of a problem IMO for Dean to withholding information about his connection to Amara from Sam as it may drastically effect the outcome of their meeting in the next episode. While Sam’s info on Billie isn’t that crucial to current events, Dean’s is. And even if Dean knew about Billie and what she said, what exactly is Dean supposed to do about it? There is no action he can take at the moment to change Billies plans for them after they die.
The importance is in the knowing. All on the table. At this point, who knows if the Empty is going to be of that much importance, though I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t, but it’s better to have complete (or as close to complete as possible) intel rather than not.
This is common sense. Especially when you consider the life they have led and the things that they have experienced. It’s comparable to when they do research on a case. They never know when the slightest clue might give them the answer they need, much less where it might come from.
There was something someone posted earlier about not being able to see your reaper unless you were dying or close to death, which Sam was. Honestly that was something that I both did not catch but also overlooked. I know, I should hand in my Supernatural fandom trivia pin right this second… I can’t believe I actually missed that. So in that aspect it would make sense that Sam would remember the visions but not the rest. At the same time I don’t believe Dean remembers much in the way of his meeting The Darkness and if that’s true that throws an interesting wrench into the entire situation. If neither truly remembers what they experienced then neither are intentionally keeping secrets and as such are both blind as to what is happening or what they are truly facing. And that? That would be much more interesting and exciting rather than the usual brothers keeping secrets yet again.
😉
[quote]Dean’s off behavior,… is because I feel he’s scared. He’s scared of what Amara said about being bonded and he doesn’t know what it means.[/quote] I actually agree with this. I think the part he DOES remember is scaring him terribly, and thus he is not able to admit it to Sam. With this episode’s specific introduction of Amara touching Sydney, though, I think it added a parallel possibility that in addition to what Dean remembers about Amara, there is more – maybe she touched him and he can’t remember that part yet.
[quote]I didn’t bring up Sam’s omission in all honesty because A) I completely forgot[/quote] Me too. 😉 I write Threads based on what happens in each episode. They haven’t had any additional focus on Sam or Billie so it just hasn’t come up yet. I think Alycat reminding us of it brought our attention to the secret we’re being directed to forget! (“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”)
Well it really all boils down to Carver didn’t want Billie revealed to Dean yet. There is probably some other dramatic reason for his future encounter with Billie. I guess we will have to stay tuned.
Sam was dying. You supposedly see your reaper when you are near death. Dean didn’t remember his encounter with Tessa maybe Sam doesn’t remember his with Billie either. We don’t have enough information yet. Just speculation. Again to be continued.
Killing you Allycat I for one on this web site depend on you and the other more knowledgable Ladies to sort this mystery out And do it now !!! LOL Its not killing me because I’m already dead and this is a ghost typing on here :D:D:D:D:D:D
Sadly we will have to salt and burn you because the last thing we want is an angry, vengeful spirit on the site!!!
Right now there are so many ways this can go that it’s anybody’s guess but it really is interesting to read everyones speculations. The ideas certainly run the gamut, don’t they?
Yeah your right Allycat it is a wonderful season I think the fact that the Boys are Normal ?? not under any influence of badness makes it worse, because you can’t say Oh its the Demon Blood or No soul, or MOC, or Demon Dean You just have to well guess I suppose. In almost all situations I’m known as a patient, plodding type of person (Tauras) but when I won’t answers I won’t them now LOL
And PLEASE I will be good so no Salt & Burn Thank you HAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Thank you. I’m glad these ramblings make sense to a few people!
[quote] it makes absolutely no sense to me that Death would demand that Dean sate the mark by fratricide,[/quote] I completely agree. Billie convinced me more than ever (I now think Billie is the “new” manifestation of Death – versus her referring to the ‘old’ Death.)
[quote]I think he’s denying to himself what Amara’s words could mean[/quote] I don’t think he’s lying to Sam exactly. I think Dean’s mind hasn’t allowed him to “see” what actually happened with Amara when they were within the Darkness swirling cloud. I don’t consider that denial exactly. He can’t deny what he hasn’t seen/realized. His mind has a tremendous self-protection mechanism of allowing him to rewrite history until he is ready to see it for what it was. Classic, advanced PTSD technique. I think Sam continually asking him about it is what inches Dean closer to seeing the “truth.” Does anyone know how many times Sam has asked Dean about his encounter with Amara?
Thanks Nightsky. Lots to mull over here. I do agree there seems to be an overall theme of motherhood. I am intrigued very much by the recurring mentions of peace and freedom from conscience that seem to be the result of interacting with Amara. I have felt that Dean has been off this season. I can’t put my finger on it. He seems a lot like old Dean and yet not. Pod person off. Almost too relaxed. And it is curious he seems to be taking his cues from Sam. I really do hope this isn’t some supernaturally influenced Dean. If so I am hoping it’s more of a trance or superficial influence. Or maybe it’s just Dean being unsettled or worried about his initial contact with the Darkness or Amara, or Damara. Confused. 🙂
Nice Threads article, Nightsky; agree with a lot of the threads you have brought up. The Bad Seed episode aside, I like the storytelling/tone/direction they’ve taken this season. My thoughts are rambling and stream of thought so here goes…
Free Will – is the way the show has portrayed free will, truly free will? Is it a good thing, or tempered by having a soul/conscious? What if Amara = true free will? Amara taking away Sydney’s “pain” and soul facilitated Sydney acting on base instinct. Sydney had been badly abused in her life and immediately start lashing out/taking revenge upon others. However, the type of person you are at your core, or your prior experiences, will temper how you behave when soulless. Len’s behavior would lead one to believe that even a person that would be considered good/easy natured, even after “going thru the motions” for as long as he can, will eventually start doing “bad” things. But, ultimately Len did something to stop himself and confessed to the murders.
I don’t think Dean is soulless; that would be pretty lame and repetitive. But.. maybe Amara took away some of Dean’s pain/guilt? We do know Dean has a boatload of that. On the other hand, Dean was still feeling guilt about beating the snot out of Castiel when, after Castiel returned the favor, Dean wouldn’t let Castiel heal him. I think Dean is still try to sort out what his connection to Amara means. Something is definitely off about Dean, though, and you brought up an interesting point about Dean’s comment about Sam’s “new rules”. Dean acted on base/survival instinct when in purgatory, and liked the purity of it. Dean enjoyed torturing in hell. He also had to feed the MoC; killing demons during his time as a demon, then killing lots of monsters (some real monsters, other “human” monsters) after Sam cured him of being a demon. Is Dean taking his some of his cues from Sam on how to behave? Dean also commented about the “crazy that Sam” has been seeing; why does he think what he’s seeing is any more real that what Sam is seeing? Are his interactions with Amara influencing his opinion on this? Regardless, it will become a major point of contention between the brothers in the future.
Sam – interesting where these visions lead; is it God, is it Lucifer or Michael, or something/someone else?
Soul = light/source of energy/small “nuclear reactor”. God imbued humans with this source of energy and, when you die you can
1) Go to heaven
2) Go to hell and gets warped/twisted in to a demon
3) Go to purgatory if you’re a monster
4) Choose to stay behind as a ghost and eventually become a vengeful spirit. Even then, ghosts can end up in heaven or hell (Bobby).
5) At a reaper’s discretion, you can get tossed in to the “Big Empty”. You raised the point that people mentioned the “quiet” after they interacted with Amara. Is Dean experiencing this “quiet” on some level? Could that be where people with no souls end up, the “Big Empty”; could that be the same as “The Darkness”?
Is this soul “energy” part of the creation of the universe and God figured out how to harness it? I suppose Amara had to take human form to interact in this world and, just as Castiel did at the end of S6, is consuming souls to “power up”. Is Amara really The Darkness, or will she facilitate, or act as a conduit for bringing the Darkness into the world?
[quote]”crazy that Sam” has been seeing; why does he think what he’s seeing is any more real that what Sam is seeing?[/quote] So far I’m still thinking Dean is downplaying Sam’s visions to minimize his own “visions” – if Sam’s are real then Dean’s are real and Dean doesn’t want that to be true…yet.
[quote]I don’t think Dean is soulless; that would be pretty lame and repetitive. But.. maybe Amara took away some of Dean’s pain/guilt?[/quote] Agree totally…and with everything else you said/asked!
[quote]Dean also commented about the “crazy that Sam” has been seeing; why does he think what he’s seeing is any more real that what Sam is seeing? Are his interactions with Amara influencing his opinion on this? Regardless, it will become a major point of contention between the brothers in the future. [/quote]
I do not think Dean thinks “what he is seeing is anymore real than what Sam is seeing.” I think visions of any kind whether they are his or Sam’s scare Dean. I think that is why he calls it crazy. First, Dean agreed with Sam that his own visions are WEIRD:
SAM: All right, I still don’t understand. I mean, I thought the darkness was a woman, not a child.
DEAN: Well, same here. I don’t know. Maybe whatever I saw wasn’t real. Maybe it was a vision.
SAM: Vision?
DEAN: Yeah.
SAM: Huh. Pretty weird.
DEAN: Yeah, weird with a weird cherry on a weird top.
11.02 Form and Void
Second, Dean always called Sam’s visions or psychic connections crazy because he fears anything “not normal” with Sam. He does not want his brother to have any “supernatural abilities” He wants to count on his “normal” brother. His father put the fear in him about Sam…. watch out for him or kill him.
I think Dean did a fair job of listening to Sam about his Vision. Dean just does not share Sam’s faith. I hope that changes this season.
I also think Dean was genuinely offering another means to track down Amara… follow Sam’s crazy (visions) or the body count in the wake. But this time, I think he said “crazy” a bit more nonchalantly and is not as critical.
Dean: No. Nah, I mean it was quiet, you know, until she started hatching killers and rallying monsters to raise armies.
Sam: So that’s how we have to find her, huh? Follow the bodies?
Dean: You got a better idea? We could follow the crazy you been seeing. With the rate Amara’s growing, sucking souls and gettin’ stronger, she may not be that hard to find.
11.05 Thin Lizzie
Finally, I think Dean is afraid of his connection and “vision” of Amara. He is piecing it together, and trying to get a handle on the whole situation.
Agreed… I think they’re both trying to get a handle on, and understand, what their “visions” mean.
Have we looked into Dean and Sam’s name meaning if so I apoligize
Dean is a male given name, sometimes used as a middle name.
A name originated from the Greek word “Decanos” which means “Monk or dignitary in charge of (10) others”, and Latin word “Decanum” which means “Chief of a group of (10)”.
The name “Dean” also means “valley” in the Old English language, and “law” in Hebrew.
“Dean” or also spelled “Deen” means [b]”religion”[/b] or[b] “the way of life”[/b] in Arabic. This Arabic meaning is interesting
Now Samuel is very interesting
From the Hebrew name ????????? (Shemu’el) which could mean either [b]”name of God”[/b] or[b] “God has heard”.[/b] Samuel was the last of the ruling judges in the Old Testament. He anointed Saul to be the first king of Israel, and later anointed David.
As a Christian name, Samuel came into common use after the Protestant Reformation. Famous bearers include American inventor Samuel Morse (1791-1872), Irish writer Samuel Beckett (1906-1989), and American author Samuel Clemens (1835-1910), who wrote under the pen name Mark Twain.
Sam got his name from his grandfather Samuel and Dean came from Deanna (His grandmother). But otherwise interesting information about the names. 🙂
Sorry, for not writing longer but I had a surgery and I am spending some quality time in the hospital at the moment which makes writing pretty hard.
– Lilah
Oh Lilah are you ok I hope you are fully back on board soon your first job will be to repremand Allycat She threatened to salt and burn me LOL No respect for the dead not vengefull yet Hahaaa
I am as okay as I can be after falling down some stairs. It sounds worse than it is and I am doing pretty well now.
Tsk tsk ALYCAT, you know the brothers and us will need to give peace to nice ghosts. Not salt and burn them. 😉
– Lilah.
[quote]Have we looked into Dean and Sam’s name meaning[/quote] Thank you for bringing that up! The meaning of both names is fascinating!! It never occurred to me that their names meant anything other than family lineage!
They have more to that in fact. I never realised that it’s unknown. Because I googled their names long ago. But people with the name Dean have a deep inner desire for a stable, loving family or community, and a need to work with others and to be appreciated.
People named Samuel People have a deep inner desire to serve humanity and to give to others by sharing money, knowledge and experience, or creative and artistic ability.
very good point Cheryl….we don’t really know at this point if sam remembers billie at all….though at the time, her words did save him and thus allowed him to save others…and if he doesn’t remember her, it could be because she did in fact plant the seed that the empty could be the solution to the darkness.
nightsky,
another thought has crossed my mind regarding the dean/amara connection thing.
i mean something hit sam and knocked him out and kidnaps dean from the car….the next thing you know we hear amara telling dean they’re bonded and she’ll see him again…surrounded by darkness and we all assume she protected dean from the darkness because that’s what he believes….
but what if that’s not what happened?
what if amara/who is the darkness was about to do something to dean…maybe suck out his soul, or whatever, but something stopped her….what if the darkness surrounding them was not getting to dean under her command because someone/something else was protecting dean….and what we saw is amara trying to get in dean’s head…you know ” i didn’t get you now my pretty but i will get you yet…you and i are bonded dean, we will meet again “
i suddenly got the wicked witch speech running through my head….remember when the witch poisoned the poppy field then glinda made it snow….the witch replied…someone is always helping that girl….and dorothy wakes up in a field of flowers….kind of like dean did
kind of makes you wonder right?….I mean I wouldn’t expect dean to remember or even believe that anyone (God) would protect him…maybe that’s why Sam’s getting visions. Sam is a believer. He has faith. Maybe whoever is helping is going through Sam because dean wouldn’t believe or trust in it.
maybe the one thing that amara was able to do, the connection is to mess with his head…scramble his memories…perhaps dean cannot see what really happened at this time…:o
“Your new rules” was a comment that referenced Sam using the BotD without caring about the consequences, ergo Sam’s new rules. It was black humor and a passive-aggressive jab. Notice the smile when Dean delivers the line. It surprises me that folks didn’t get it.
As for Dean being soulless. He’s definitely been different and it had to do with his experience with Amara. She saved him remember.
Of course Crowley immediately recognized that Jenna was soulless but said nothing to Dean. Could it be that she returned him to his Marked state. That because he’s a powerful archangel vessel he still has souk left. I don’t know. It’s curious. Was all of the interaction in the premiere in the future.
I don’t think she’s bad per se. She’s the first God level diety interacting with humans we’very seen.
I don’t think it was a passive aggressive jab at Sam at all. I think Dean, as Nightsky said, is taking cues from Sam. I haven’t seen Dean, so far this year, bring up crap from the past. I find it refreshing that they are BOTH taking responsibility for the events that happened. I know you think Sam is “amoral, immature and selfish” and that you think it is “weird that anyone would like Sam given his lack of morality”. Quotes from another site. He thinks more highly of him than you do.
Sam talked Lester info a demon deal and left his wife unprotected afterwards. Sam was not thinking about saving people.
Sam rushed into the suicide house to get the codex from the Werther Box for Rowena despite the MOL tapes indicating that the box was too Dangerous to open and that the codex was too Dangerous and powerful to allow witches to have it. Suzie dies and luckily Dean saves himself and Sam. Eventually Rowena is so powerful she can spell an angel.
Sam doesn’t care about the repercussions of releasing Metatron or using the BotD. He sanctions human sacrifice. None of this falls under saving people. So yeah. Dean was mocking him. Jensen says it with a smile. Dean wasn’t the brother out of control last season.
The question is why do you care what I think about a fictional character. I think the character is poorly written because he’s not heroic. Sam wasn’t heroic last season. He was selfish and immoral and immature. And now he feels guilty for the resulting deaths. Poor baby. Too bad he didn’t care about saving people last season.
Even as a demon Dean saved innocents. He saved the woman Sam’s actions condemned.
Demon Dean was a tepid watered down version and a result of a fear to show him doing anything bad so his saving ”innocents” as no meaning . Nor has Dean been wriiten very heroically the last seasons for me so people can dislike what Sam did but he did not do anything Dean himself would not of done.
And the simple fact is Sam would not of gone near Rowena or the BOTD if Dean had not got the Mark with little regard of the outcome to himself or anybody around him. So while fans like you can look at Sam that way by all means knock yourself out but just remember Dean is not exactly covered in glory himself either.
Why to argue a pure and irrational hatred? Nothing you will say change the fact. Relax.
That’s what we do here isn’t it? Talk about fictional characters. You write reviews claiming the “Dean” fan perspective. It concerns me that you claim to speak for all Dean fans. You don’t. You speak for the Dean fans who hate Sam. As far I know. no reviewer on either site has taken that stance before. I am not talking about constructive criticism of a characters actions. That is a different thing. They both have flaws. You said that your reviews were were put on the sister site because they wouldn’t be taken well here. It’s not because you are a Dean fan. It’s because of your extremely negative and well known dislike of one of the main characters. You like to fall back on “it’s the writing” when people call you on it. Hate Sam, love Sam makes no difference to me but it does slant your posts and reviews to Dean=good and heroic and Sam =bad selfish and immoral.
Agreed Leah. Dean made the remark immediately after Sam said that “we’re not going to kill Len.” Dean was clearly referencing Sam’s “new rules” regarding saving ALL of the people.
You mean Dean is being “passive aggressive”? Well now that would be out of character for Dean. He is usually openly aggressive. He has never held back his hostile attitude in front of Sam in the past why would he do it now unless there was something off about him.
I’ve seen so many people talk about how Dean was/is “off.” How so? I didn’t really interpret his behavior as all that off and it never occurred to me that he was acting in any way different than he usually does, except he seems much more patient, friendly and light than before. I am not saying that he isn’t off, just that I wasn’t seeing it the same way others are seeing it. I’d be sad to find out that this nicer, kinder more fun Dean is a product of TheD. What a bummer. I am hoping that it has more to do with the fact that he’s happy to be alive, happy his brother is alive, happy he no longer has the mark. I’m guess that in the next episode we’ll see in what way Dean is truly being affected by Amara as they come face to face. The episode description isn’t great, it sounds kind of cheesy, but it’s a Robert Beren’s script so I am hoping that he will bring his A game as he usually does. Although, I do see that Sam is knocked unconscious AGAIN. Boo. I’d dearly love that tired old trope to go the way of the dinosaur, but if Dean needs to learn something from Amara that Sam can’t hear (so that we can have more contrived secrets….joy) then they either have to knock him out or send him off to the basement. Either way it sucks. A thought did occur to me though…. maybe Sam attempts to kill Amara and then Dean knocks Sam out. THAT would be an interesting take on things. Then we’d know for sure that Dean is in deep and hopefully Sam would also know what’s up finally.
I can only say what I meant by that. It isn’t even so much that I think he is under a major influence and isn’t Dean anymore. He just seems slightly unfocused and not as edgy as Dean is even in his better moments. I do believe that he is happy that he and Sam are alive and that he wants to work together as a team. I also think he wants to stow the guilt and blame. That was all said BEFORE he saw Amara in The Darkness so I have no reason to suspect that. It all could be attributed to his worry about his experiences with Amara and his seeming protectiveness of her. I am intrigued anyway and that is a good thing.
Yes. This season is intriguing.
Remain confused as to why Sam can be mad at Dean and say horrible things to him via the Purge but Dean absolutely cannot make a snide joke about Sam just having caused a bunch of people to die.
He can, I just disagree that he did. They have both said bad things to each other. Hoping that the brothers and the fans can move forward.
At first I kinda questioned your idea about Dean being snarky with his comment to Sam about the “new rules” but then he also made the agreement/observation about working with family so now I’m not sure. Maybe Dean is trying to be on board with Sam’s “Up with people” party line but isn’t really feeling it. There’s definitely room for different views here. Everything is just so much – this could go so many different ways- it’s hard to make an accurate call. 😉
[quote]Maybe Dean is trying to be on board with Sam’s “Up with People” party line[/quote]
That struck me as funny/odd because it was Dean who coined the phrase “Saving People, Hunting Things. The Family Business” in S1 and we heard that phrase at the beginning of every episode afterwards that year. I think Dean is struggling with not just mowing people down because that is what they have been doing for so long now. Kill the bad guys save the innocents. Somehow the innocents have become blurred.
And I am old enough to say that I actually saw Up With People perform at….wait for it….a livestock auction in Los Angeles of all places.
Yes it definitely has become blurred mostly because of the situations they have found themselves in over all this time. I think Dean tends to be more pragmatic, accepting that there will regrettably be collateral losses and has grown numb with acceptance of same whereas Sam has drifted over time to the point where he can admit that he has also taken that same stand and has decided it is unacceptable for him.. Intentionally or otherwise for both of them. Sam seems to want to turn over a new leaf because of what he has done before and I believe he means it. Dean sees what he himself has done and knows that the new Winchester Mission Statement is a good thing and would like to put it into effect but he’s too much of a realist to thinks it is always going to happen. Remember when he said bad things happen to good people? Dean is horribly aware of that fact and wants to commit to not being one of those bad things to the extent he is able to for Sam but he wants Sam to realize it isn’t always going to work out that way no matter how badly they want it or how hard they try.
Maybe so Alycat. Is is hard to make an accurate call on anything this season. I am going with he wasn’t being snide for the time being. I don’t want to think Dean is starting again up with Sam about past issues. But something is amiss here just can’t figure it out yet and I like that!
Yeah I just keep hearing “ish” in my head. Snark is part of Dean’s personality that is never going to change. They have never gotten along 100% all the way back to the first season. I don’t know how much Dean is actually calling back to past issues here either with the “New rules” as opposed to possibly expressing his aggravation that Sam called his attention to it it as if maybe he thought Dean was automatically going to revert to type without weighting the cost? That was kind of my initial take. The comment about family tho? Considering they are both trying to find the good in their relationship, that one was just odd
Agreed, it was odd for sure. I know that things are never going to be perfect with the guys they are so very different. Snark is one of the things I love about Dean, he is not going to change his basic personality. I think they are going to have their moments of conflict. That’s a given. I just don’t think that comment was meant as a slap to Sam for something that happened last season. Not so soon after the the ‘we share the blame here’ type of things he has said so far this season. But that’s just me. Who knows what is going on with Dean at the moment? He might be under some Amara influence or he may just be worried as hell. As is Sam. I would hate it if we return to S8 and S9 levels of conflict.
If you Google snark all things Dean will pop up. 😉
You would think that there are some residual feelings that would be hard to bury emotionally, that ordinarily some self reflection as well as serious discussions on both of their parts would occur and be in order but when they have basically just escaped killing Death and jointly avoided instant destruction by The Darkness, maybe saying “F-it” and just accepting that various bad was done by all and sundry and going forward anew isn’t such a horrible decision. Take it day by day but fight the good fight together. I think it’s unrealistic to expect everything stay buried and not anticipate that periodically something will rear it’s ugly head though and I think if either brother sees the other one starting to backslide, that’s where the “ish” is partially going to come in. 😉 I’m loving the new season so far too. 😉
Did you think that Dean was aggravated? I thought he was caught a little off guard by Sam reminding him that they were going to try to Save People but totally on board with it. He didn’t want to kill Len at any point. He just didn’t know what to do with him. Thankfully Nancy Won gave Len and Dean a way out. Very clever of her.
I just don’t see anything off about Dean. Other than zoning out as he remembers parts of his encounter with Amara he seems like Dean to me. Just a happier more fun Dean than we have seen for a while. My favorite Dean. Snarky, funny, caring about others Dean.
Not so much aggravated maybe exasperated or somewhat annoyed? I’ll have to watch that scene again more closely. It may be just how Jensen is playing Dean, a tad off. I thought he did the same thing last year early on after DemonDean was cured. I thought there was a chance that he hadn’t been completely saved and well, you see how that ended up. 😉 There have been several times Deans whether through an expression or by his body language I’ve found myself thinking what the Hell is going on with him or what is going on in his head? Sam seems to occasionally wonder the same. 😉 So no, I don’t know as there’s too many conflicting things going on with him at the moment. One thing is sure Dean has to be happy, really happy with his little brother by his side going up against a common foe and it looks like Sam is too. They are going to need to draw strength from these special moments in the days ahead.
All I know is that I am loving the fact that the brothers are liking each other again. That completes me. Please let it last all season. Secrets I can handle, hostility towards each other ruins my chi.
Gesundheit!!! 😉
Yes it is good to see them bonding again. Now one has to question where they are taking them storywise. I was trying to think has there ever been a season with so many players, as in enemies, on the board? We’ve got The Darkness, Crowley, Rowena, Megatron, young Amara, the soulless (technically not an enemy but not very cute and cuddly either), the demons, the angels and assorted monsters joining ranks increasing their own numbers to fight what’s coming. Did I leave anybody out? Oh yeah. Possibly Satan. Maybe Michael? It’s no wonder we are all confused as to what’s coming next!
Leah, I agree that something seems a bit different about Dean, and I think it has to do with Amara. Maybe, like Sydney, he has some heightened awareness of her, and maybe that’s why he initially balked about taking this case- he sensed her involvement. He gave odd looks a number of times when Len and Sydney were talking about how they felt, and he definitely seemed like he was not being completely honest when Sam asked how it was for him when he met Amara. Also, I just rewatched the ep and as the brothers were driving off Dean definitely gave a look right at the bushes where Amara appeared from just seconds later. At least that’s how it seemed to me. I hope we find out next week exactly what Dean remembers from his time in the mist with the D and that he shares that info with Sam. I will be very disappointed if the “secrets” between the brothers become the source of discord between the, because we have seen enough of that to last a lifetime.
One last odd thing about Dean was his disparaging remark about working with family. Working with family has been his one primary, constant goal for 11 years!!! So what prompted that remark?
Ill have to watch the ep again and look for these moments. I did think Dean’s “working with family can be tough” comment was odd and so did Sam. I’m not too jazzes for a soulless Dean story though. I hope they come up with something else.
Are you on something. I have never said that I speak for all Dean fans here or in my reviews or on imbd. I post my opinion. People are free to disagree or agree.
All I did was give a different and valid opinion about Dean’s line. I think he is commenting on Sam’s sudden decision to care about others.
I do not think brothers, especially those two brothers, are going to be holding hands abd singing Kumbaya all of the time. If they do fine.
I don’t understand your need for everyone to worship a, flawed tv character the way you do…especially his fictional television brother.
And if you disagreed with me giving my opinion about something on imhd, why didn’t you discuss it on that site. You my dear are a piece of work.
You calling me a piece of work. 😀 If liking Sam is worshiping him then fine. I like Dean too. I am the first to admit they are flawed. I never put either up on a golden pedastal like you do that fictional character Dean. Do you preface your every opinion on Sam and Dean with ” the fictional character of…..”? I sorta thought that was understood. I never said things would be hunky dory. I had hoped they had progressed a little from throwing passive agressive “snide” comments around. You like to tout your reviews as the Dean fan perspective. You do. Yeah, saying nice things about Sam always goes over so well on Imdb doesn’t it?
Thank you NightSky, I enjoy your insights in these thread articles and the thoughtful discussion it inspires. Awesome for us, this season is giving us an intriguing story line and raising some very serious questions. In regard to the state of Dean’s being, I do not think Amara took his soul nor do I think he she gave him the heroin (orgasmic chocolate cake) peace we learned she is capable of imparting through Sydney, the babysitter. I think we simply have Dean back and Sam, for that matter, and it has been so long that we may not recognize them. Season 8-10 had been a bit rough on their characters and on the brother relationship. They have been through hell and seem to have grown a bit because their relationship has improved, more banter, humor, talking and on the same team. In episode one Dean wanted to go his usual route and kill the rabid townsfolk and save the baby. Sam gave him that speech about change and saving ALL the people. At first Dean responded with the what the hell are you talking about reaction, they are going to kill us; but something Sam said hit a chord and he changed his mind. Dean is going with Sam’s plan… the new rules, perhaps because he has been through hell with the MOC and thinks change may be good. He does not want to repeat last year. With that said, I do think Dean is “affected” by Amara. Dean is feeling the connection to Amara and the desire to protect her. He certainly protected baby Amara and told Crowley hands off. He may also be feeling her presence. I think all of this scares him because he is also able to simultaneously see what Amara is doing; eating souls and he believes and stated that she is the Darkness and is evil. I think he is remembering things in pieces and is trying to put it together. Why is Dean feeling the connection and need to protect Amara? It could be the fact he bore the MOC but I am starting to think it is possible Amara is manipulating Dean and attaching herself to him and infiltrating his mind. I am looking more closely at what she said.
She wants Dean to think she is grateful he saved her/ set her free.
SAM: And she told you she was the darkness.
DEAN: No. She was wearing a nametag. What do you think? She thanked me.
SAM: For what?
DEAN: Setting her free.
SAM: You didn’t set her free. I set her free.
DEAN: Does it matter? I mean, yeah, you said the spell, but I had the Mark, so lock and key.
SAM: So, what, now she feels indebted to you or something?
Amara wants Dean to think she saved him from infectious dark clouds and they are BONDED.
Dean: If you’re as bad as they say you are, why haven’t you hurt me?
Amara: For the same reason that you’ll never hurt me. We’re bound, Dean. We’ll always be bound. You helped me, I helped you. No matter where I am, [b]who I am[/b], we will always help each other.
We know Amara is focused and on a mission.
DEAN: I don’t know. She’s a Darkness. Does she feel anything?
SAM: And that’s all she said? Thanks?
DEAN: Yeah. She was weird. [b]But she had this energy about her, this — this focus[/b]. But, yeah, not a talker.
She likes Dean and he makes he feel “peaceful”. perhaps what she gave to Sydney the babysitter.
DEAN: Well, now that you’ve said your thanks, let’s talk about what happens next.
DARKNESS: [b]I like it here. With you. I haven’t felt this peaceful in a long, long time.[/b]
DEAN: Well, let’s get something straight — I’m not here to bring you peace. I know what you are.
DARKNESS: Really? I’ve been gone so long, I didn’t think anyone remembered.
She may be manipulative and trying to confuse him.
DEAN: Well, Death painted a hell of a picture.
DARKNESS: I don’t know this death, and he doesn’t know me.
DEAN: (holding up a knife) So, are you saying I shouldn’t try and kill you right now?
DARKNESS: [b]Am I saying that? Or are you?[/b]
Dean is conflicted. We know he still thinks he can kill her but he also has protected her as a baby.
DEAN: Well, we know what she looks like, and we know that she’s evil. The question is, what does she know? I mean, she’s been locked away since the beginning of time. Does she even know what a cheeseburger is? All I know is that we set her free, and we’re gonna put her back in, no matter what it takes.
Dean said two things that seemed like Amara was starting to influence him to be slightly negative and perhaps, starting to erode his family relationship and mission.
In response to Jenna when she said this job is supposed to be about Saving People, Dean replied “sounds better on paper”.
And he made that off handed comment about how it is difficult to work with family.
Finally I think there was a bit of foreshadowing of where Dean may be headed and also Sam.
While Jenna is holding baby Amara right before the baby sucked out her soul, Jenna assured Amara: “Whatever is wrong, Dean will fix it.” The scene immediately goes to Hannah and Castiel who are discussing the Darkness and the next line is Hannah saying “God Help Us”. I think Dean is going to have to battle the pull to protect Amara. The God help us line brings me to Sam. I think God is communicating with Sam through others: Sam prayed directly to God. Sam had a vision of the cage; where Sam will find some answers to defeat the darkness. Billie gave him the answer to cure the black vein illness. When Sam used the holy oil to burn out the disease of the towns people, he did it in the chapel with a great visual of the cross behind him. Billie also told Sam about the big nothing/ void where I think Amara/ darkness belongs. The young Dad vision (Gabriel??) in the car was trying to help Sam with his message: Darkness is coming and God helps those who help themselves.
I also think you are right in seeing all those family references. Dean called Sam “MOM” twice. Crowley has made numerous “DADDY” references and Uncle Crowley.
Crowley:[b] Daddy’s[/b] home. What?
Demon Minion #2: Sir, there are rumors from Hell.
Crowley: Rumors?
Demon Minion #2: The Darkness has been released.
Crowley: The Darkness? Please. Myth. It’s a bedtime story, something [b]daddy demons threaten toddler demons[/b] with to get them to eat their vegetables. Even if it was true, what’s the concern? . We had grandma references; Jenna’s grandma and Lizzie’s room had Grandma all over it. I think Amara is about the destruction of Family. She had Jenna kill her grandmother. The parents of the baby she became where both killed/died. Young Amara had an interest in poor Lizzie who killed her parents and then Sydney the babysitter kills the inn keeper’s mother and the boys parents because she thought they did not treat him well. Like Amara, she said she could do a better job caring for him. Amara thinks God did a bad job and she as Mother Goddess will be an improvement. I think Amara wants Dean for herself so she may try to prey on Dean’s insecurities about his own Dad and Sam may be on her hit list.
[quote] I think Amara is about the destruction of Family.
[/quote]
I agree with a lot of your thoughts spnlit. Amara’s obsession with family would explain why she was drawn to Sydney in the first place- Sydney had been horribly abused by her parents so, to her, family has extremely negative connotations. Your theory also would possibly explain Dean’s “working with family” remark. That statement is so counter to EVERYTHING that has ever been important to Dean that it stuck out like a sore thumb in the ep, so it had to have been included for a reason. He didn’t say it as a joke or to tease Sam, and Sam’s extremely surprised reaction signals some significance to that scene IMO.
This is great spnlit. I like this idea that Amara is about the destruction of family. That’s a great thread, one that we’ll have to keep watching for. You are right, some kind of family connection has been mentioned in every episode so far. We’ll have to see if it continues next week! Amara and TheD may be primordial evils from the dawn of time, but neither one of them has come up against the Winchester’s and their family connection. I think she’s in for a tough fight if she tries to get between Sam and Dean.
[quote]I like this idea that Amara is about the destruction of family. That’s a great thread, one that we’ll have to keep watching for.[/quote] Agreed! Got it!
Hey SpnLit,
just want to let you know how much I enjoy reading your posts. 😉 I think we are in agreement on most things here. It’s still early, but I do agree that The Darkness seems to be targeting families…maybe it has to do with God and his family tricking her and trapping her in the first place…There’s very little info on her, so it’s all spec right now. God is seen as the father, she could see herself as a mother….but I’m not sure as she predates everything…so does she even know what “mother” stands for ? (she and famine have similar traits…I wondered if she is in fact a mother of sorts ….are the four horsemen her creation?) probably not…but it did make me wonder:D.
I don’t think the word “amoral” when describing her makes her any less dangerous than being immoral….in fact I believe her to be worse, because she might not be able to acknowledge the wrong she’s doing and she certainly will never care…..I don’t believe her capable of being able to be “reached” in any way…..her demise or her re-confinement will likely be the only solution….and I do believe that’s where the Empty that billie spoke of to Sam comes in.
As for Dean being off, I know in the posts I’ve made here I’ve given my reasoning to why it would be, but in all honesty, I didn’t see it. I definitely believe his soul is in fact, in tact…as a matter of fact, the very fact that the one consensus we all seem to have this season so far, is the boys brotherly banter being back again, them smiling, them a little lighter, and that alone is proof enough that dean is in fact with a soul….that is in proper working condition. 😀 I thought dean was typical dean….but as typical as he can be given what he’s recently experienced. I don’t expect Dean to be the exact same person he was after leaving the saloon, just like I never expected Sam to be totally the same after swan song and all that followed. Dean only 5 eps ago came very close to losing himself forever….and while he did beat the moc and it’s off of him, I don’t expect it to be that quick and easy to dismiss what he’s done while bearing the moc for the last year and a half. now given that the boys haven’t had the chance or as per normal Winchester behavior, they just won’t talk about what happened, it doesn’t mean that it might not still sit with dean. the boys are bouncing back, but it’s going to take them a little time and I do believe they are both still reeling over the guilt they feel over the loss of Charlie perhaps? and the fact that ea of them feels to blame for releasing the darkness….so baby steps.
as for dean’s remark about family….I actually didn’t think anything of it….because what he said is actually a true statement. it’s not necessarily a dig at sam either…as a matter of fact I didn’t think it a dig at his brother at all….do you realize how much easier it is to work with people you don’t care about or have personal ties to? How much easier is work when you could care less about other’s…you just do your job, mind your business and go home at the end of the day and forget it all…. working with people you love…especially sam and dean is hard….especially when you love the other more than yourself…
plus who’s to say dean was referring to sam? he worked with john too and that certainly wasn’t easy for either of them. or dean could’ve been referring to his own guilt that he still might be feeling because let’s face it….the boys haven’t really had that opportunity to deal with stuff yet…so he could’ve made that comment thinking about how hard it was for sam this past year and a half….
what i’m getting at is the comment itself wasn’t anything that sent alarms through my head….it was simply a true statement…and when he said it….all these reasons popped in my head as to why he said it and not once did my thought of amara or her influence have anything to do with it. even when len commented about faking it til you make it, my first thought was of what frank had told dean back in s7 when dean learned franks family had been killed. I had a feeling dean recalled those words as well and I do feel that it’s once again advice he will follow …as I do believe that what amara said about being bonded and learning what she’s doing is beginning to scare him now. that much I am sure of…
of course, as of now it’s pretty much anyone’s guess because we don’t know really what she means when she tells dean they’re bonded. Personally though, I feel as though she’s manipulating him. Deities, angels, demons….it seems to be their MO. I mean yes dean protected a baby…but neither sam or dean are going to kill an infant. do you remember jesse? sam: we don’t kill children. Gordon taunted Dean about killing hitler when he was a crap artist…but knowing he what he would become…he asked dean…you mean to tell me you wouldn’t kill him? at that point, honestly…I don’t know that dean would’ve. but then we get him killing the styne kid…but that was the moc…. it leads me back to the question of the bond? is she connected to the bearer because the darkness corrupted the wearer in the first place? dean doesn’t bear the mark, she does…does she feel what he felt when he wore the mark and believes she can play on those feelings now? he no longer bears the moc…and the battle he fought to beat the mark…I think dean has beaten his demons, his own darkness….so does she truly have a hold on him? what every deity seems to fail to comprehend is the bond dean shares with sam…it’s been their downfall and I do believe it will be again…no matter what kind of hold she might actually have on dean.
I do agree that God or someone working for him is in fact helping Sam. I think it might be important that we learned that the Darkness was tricked by God. Maybe that’s where Dean will come in…his love for sam is stronger than even the darkness, of that I have no doubt…but maybe it’s her hold on him that she will come to believe he has that the dean and sam will use against her….it could be likely the only way to trap her again is to trick her……remember when the boys pretended to fight and the trickster believed them….what if it’s something along these lines?
I guess time will tell….I do hope we get to find out soon exactly what kind of hold she does have…because right now, dean not willing to kill a child isn’t anything new. even travis couldn’t kill jack the rugaru because he didn’t have the heart to kill a kid….
All great thoughts and ideas But if we are to believe anything we are told The Boys are “Normal” this season. Maybe what we are seeing (and I believe this would happen in life) maybe not SPN. Is two individual people that have had a extremely horrid 12-18mths together and as individuals, and they are now going through their own type of traumatic stress. Their through it alive, but at what cost. Dean has been on the edge of darkness for 3 seasons? Sam has been fighting for Dean for 3 seasons ? They are now trying to re-focus, re- connect, understand past and present horrors and at the same time support each other.
My goodness I would be a bit different. I have always seen Dean as the more stoic brother, all in guns blazing. Sam more studious take a extra 5 min to think about it.
I wonder if Dean has lost his confidence, scared of what he almost became and could become again He wants to change so he is now following his brother’s lead
I still as metioned really can’t work out the car business Episode 1 What really was the point of knocking out Sam ? and taking Dean ? just for a chat doesn’t make sense More to that to come I reckon
My first thought when the Empty was dropped was that it would be a way to get dead characters that don’t go to heaven, he’ll or Purgatory back. Obviously Cas has been there from time to time.
My second thought was Sam would be dying this season and it will be a super big deal. Dean won’t die because of Amara. Of course if Sam doesn’t tell
Dean that could generate an endless mytharc of Dean scouring all of the known realms for Sam but never finding him. That could easily take the show to season 20 if they did it correctly. And of course the reapers won’t give him a heads up because they’re angels and dicks.
Personally I hope they seriously limit the doornails that return this season and that includes Charlie and Bobby.
Show has never had the guts to separate the boys for more than a few episodes, do you really think that they would go that far? Not to mention the rioting in the streets that would ensue… 😉 Not saying that it wouldn’t be interesting I just don’t see it ever happening. Not the riots silly, the storyline. 😉
I never get tired of seeing Bobby. I thought the way he was used in Inside Man was great. And I do want to see what became of Bobby after his “Heaven Break”. Honestly I don’t want to see Charlie either but not for the same reasons as you do. I know you despise her. For me I wouldn’t want to open fresh wounds.
There are others that I would like to see….JDM’s John, Mary, Ellen, Gabriel and some of those that the Winchesters maybe failed to save. Sort of like the rising of the witness’s. If done well it could be a lot of fun and add some drama.
[quote] I thought the way he was used in Inside Man was great. And I do want to see what became of Bobby after his “Heaven Break”.[/quote]
I agree! There may be room for another well made Bobby episode this season. I totally enjoyed Matt Cohen- who ever he was and my other comeback favorites are Gabriel and Henry Winchester. I liked Henry’s style, personality and interaction with the boys.
Speaking of Matt Cohen- did you guys notice he had that breathing exhale thing down that JDM always did with his portrayal of John. Matt nailed it. 😉
Somehow I get the feeling that the message from “John” that it would take both brothers to defeat the Darkness will mean that both brothers will either end up in the Empty together with the Darkness or they will shove the Darkness into the Empty and survive it. I can’t see Sam being lost to Dean for the next 9 seasons (Jensen would of course not go on without Jared). I don’t see that as a possible scenario. But I am sure there will be another big cliffhanger in store for us at the end of this season. Hopefully they will get a few more seasons in before they call it a day.
It was a joke. Season 20.
Dean Mr. SNARK Winchester.
Uses humor to express anger.
Has everyone forgotten s 8.
Dean Winchester.
Also uses humor to express HUMOR, as well as many other emotions besides anger.
Have you forgotten seasons 1-10?
:p:p
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