CW Official Press Release for 10.23
We have the description for the season finale.
WEDNESDAY, MAY 20 SEASON FINALE
SUPERNATURAL
“Brother’s Keeper” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET)
SUPERNATURAL SEASON FINALE — Dean (Jensen Ackles) makes a shocking decision regarding the Mark of Cain that would change not only his life, but Sam’s (Jared Padaleck) too. Meanwhile, Crowley (Mark Sheppard) and Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell) face off and Castiel (Misha Collins) gets caught in the middle. Phil Sgriccia directed this episode written by Jeremy Carver (#1022). Original airdate 5/20/2015.
Note: episodes were shot out of order, the Press Release takes the number from the shooting order, not the order they will be shown in.
What shocking decision will Dean make regarding the Mark of Cain? How will it affect Dean and Sam? Rowena and Crowley finally face off. Who do you think will win? How does Cas get in the middle of that fight? Do you think he will pick a side? If so will he be Team Rowena or Team Crowley? Give us your thoughts in the comments.
I wonder if this is the ep that the Props Dept. asked Jensen to handwrite a note for them. Doesnt sound like Dean is all that demony. The synopsis kindof leads you to believe that Dean takes off. Is he giving up, figuring its only a matter of time before he turns so he wants to get as far away from Sam and Cas for their sake. Or does something horrible happen that prevents him leaving and ends up disasterous for all concerned. You know this synopsis is probably misleading but anyway it rolls out? Its gonna be painful. It doesnt even directly say what Sam is doing which doesnt bode well for him. Im also concerned over Cas.
Here’s a radical thought Maybe Dean decides to sucome to the mark and goes to Purgatory then in S11 Sam & Cas try to save him
That might not be so far fetched Jen, he may think that Purgatory is the only place he can let go and let the MoC take control. He may choose to go there this time. He may need some help getting there…..
How spoilery can we get with speculation? *SPOILER* possibly….Death is supposed to make an appearance this season (Julian was spotted on set). Dean summons Death since he is probably the only player on the board who can take MOC Dean out and asks him to reap/kill him. Kind of a Swan Song decision. Except that it sounds like Dean makes the choice without Sam’s help or approval. Maybe after Dean sees what lengths Sam is willing to go to he decides he needs to end it before Sam loses his own humanity. IDK though Dean dies again? That wouldn’t be all that original.
So where does almost demon Dean go? Jen could be right he could end up in Purgatory.
This article is filed under the spoilers topic and give spoilers in the description. I think that revealing spoilers here is fine.
I have been thinking and saying since the rise of the demon dean that Death would be the only player who could help Dean. It is plausible Death would agree to assist in this issue because it is about the MOC, a beginning of time curse involving Lucifer; the mangling of a soul and Dean whom, Death has a unique relationship, always trying to teach him something about the soul. Also, if the idea introduced by Metatron and Rowena is correct about going back to the source of the MOC power, Death would be the one to get to it. Dean’s decision will also be about his steadfast and overriding love, protection, duty for Sam- his “Brother’s Keeper” Dean’s whole identification of himself is what was ingrained in him by his father and accepted by him as his purpose in life. From the start… “Take your brother outside as fast as you can – don’t look back. Now, Dean! Go! Dad told him he would have to either save Sam or kill him. AND all the rest…. the cross road deal, getting Sam’s soul back, and the last time; thinking he knew best for Sam and the angel possession. So maybe Carver will deliver on his promise to have the brother’s walk in each other shoes. Dean will learn how Sam was ready and willing to let go at the start of Season 9 and Sam’s desire to make his own decisions; and Sam will learn how desperate Dean was to “keep his brother.” The path for Sam will be witchcraft. Remember back in the episode when the blood cure was finished, the show did not end with Dean in his room but rather a flash to the wicked Rowena? At the time I wanted to focus on Dean, but was this flash really a foreshadowing of … Sam fixing Dean for the moment but the lurking of the other real darkness ancient power of witchcraft and the lure for Sam in his desperate quest to help Dean. I think what ever happens, it will be a heartbreaking separation of the brothers and maybe they will both realize thy are “keepers of their brother”.
I am sure even after seeing the head of the Coven who did magic and wasn’t particularly evil and after James and Portia gave us witches that were good and used their magic for the “right reasons” that once Sam dabbles it will revert to being the most evil, evil that ever eviled.
I also don’t know why the writers seem to think Sam has never walked in Dean’s shoes of being willing to go full out to save him. Jeremy Carver was on staff in season three and wrote the seminal example of Sam going full on to save Dean no matter what the cost, Mystery Spot.
This is something that has baffled me and part of the reason I have struggled with the sl’s and writing since season 8 but it just seems that is the way they were determind to go.
cute turn of phrase 🙂
Well since I already did it, (sorry) that is good to know.
Thanks Cheryl I could handle Dean in pergatory least his not dead (sort of) and it gives Sam & Cas a good story line next season ?? Also Cheryl I didn’t think of Death – so Dean writing a good bye note and telling Sam to look after baby and leaving it on the window of the impala makes sense.
I’m was also thinking Crowley & Rowenna. Could Crowely have teamed up with Metatron they are enemies – maybe the last couple of weeks they have been working together on the demon tablet & spells to alliminate Rowenna. It could be a parallel story to the MOC. It could be interesting ?? This could be why Cas is there he feels guilty for letting him go so he could be there to kill him ???
I definitely see Metatron and Crowley hooking up. Metatron has no one else to turn to. And with the demon tablet as leverage (and being able to translate it) would be a perfect ally for Crowley. Cas caught in the middle doesn’t sound good for Cas.
Dean has made decisions before that changed Sam’s life so is that really going to be anything different from anything else that has gone before.
Are we really going to get all the way to the end of the season and Dean will STILL be rational enough to make his own decisions? I thought that the Mark was taking control over him again? That’s what they keep telling us…. Dean is losing his humanity! Dean is getting worse! Dean’s in trouble! But by this description it seems like he’s got everyone else best interests at heart and is still able to make his usual lnoble and self sacrificing decisions. This whole story line has got to GO. I am sick to death of the whole thing. Its been nothing but a tease this entire time consisting of things that TPTB are telling us Dean might do but never actually does, as other characters stand around and tell us that Dean’s in all this terrible trouble that we never actually see. I say let Dean go to purgatory and good riddance; that sounds like a GREAT idea. He’ll be safe and happy there killing with this better brother to his little hearts content, and the world will be safe from the tease that he might go bad (but never will) and I’ll be safe from having to watch another minute of this boring disaster that’s wasting my time and Jensen’s talents.
…
I’ve just been trying to reconcile the three things we’ve heard about the final: 1. The Rowena actress said they’re “going there” which implies something totally new, so I don’t see how Dean going to Purgatory would fit the bill. 2. Misha said there is a whiplash moment of “what a relief” followed by “oh shit.” I’ve always assumed that meant that Dean is cured but that then the true cost of this to Dean or Sam is revealed. Again, not sure how the purgatory idea would fit that bill. 3. the synopsis indicates that Dean’s decision changes both brothers’ lives. So something else must be happening besides “Dean is gone” to truly change Sam’s life- after all, He’s lost Dean multiple times now. I didn’t know about the Death return (where do you find all this info Charyl?) but I’ve been trying to figure out what Death could do that is unprecedented but that also affects both brothers, and I’m stumped. Maybe cure Dean but at the cost of Sam’s life? Unlikely. The thing that troubles me most about all of these hints is that it’s becoming clear that Sam does not get the save, but rather that his risky measures are what impel Dean to do something cataclysmic- so really Sam is to blame for the fallout. Also, not only does Sam probably not get to be the hero, but it will be Dean’s actions that drive the whole outcome, so Sam will once again be reduced to bystander of whatever happens. This will be an even worse finale than last year if it sets up another season of Sam must save Dean because he drove Dean to do the shocking thing that he does.
YOU did not like last years finale’…..:o:o:o:o:o:o
I loathed the finale as well.
OMFG
I thought everyone LOVED IT.
Guess I did not read the comments.
So you know the Christmas episode where at different points the guys ‘do’ Christmas for each other – Dean when they were kids and Sam as adults? And you can either look at the reality of how depressing and bad the Christmases actually were or the amount of heart that the boys (in that case their characters) put into it. That is how I feel about both the finale last season and the 200th episode. The guys do their absolute best with what they are given (and even then a lot of the genuine emotion in the finale was left on the cutting room floor apparently, and the 200th episode had all the biases of its writer front and center) and they throw everything into it. It sort of felt like kicking a puppy at the time to say anything about the episodes. Still does a bit, but what can you do? *shrug*
Did not know about good scenes left on the cutting room floor.
I have typed more in the last 2 days then in years. I don’t read
all articles nor comments. WFB was feeling a little Frosty to me
so I check in and peek only, most of the time.
Good to know. Thanks Eilf.
Well it is only rumors that there was more of the death scene and possibly (?) Sam bringing Dean’s body into the room and putting him on the bed (REALLY not sure about that one, it actually seems unlikely TBH) but there does seem to have been more of the emotional parts of the dying scene and they apparently really put their hearts into it, and that I have respect for. The rest of the episode? … well I am pretty much with E on that.
Dont know about the carrying Deans body to his bed, that sounds more like rampant fan fic, however there were supposedly scenes where Sam cried more. Why do they always deny us the good stuff? Id like to edit THEM. No respect for us fangirls…
*grumble*
I hated almost everything about the finale last year. It was Carver’s worst episode (as writer) by a factor of about a million. The payoff scene of Dean’s black eyes had an impact but everything before it was terrible. IMO, of course.
Wow I couldn’t disagree with you more. But to each their own. I do love both brothers so Dean’s death and resurrection as a demon was just about the most devastating cliffhanger of the series for me. Knowing how Dean felt about demons and monsters and what his mission in life had always been it was the worst possible thing that could have happened to him. And Sam was just heartbroken. I thought Jared and Jensen were absolutely flawless in their scenes. Mark S was perfect and his speech at the end was unbelievably beautiful and terrifying at the same time. Everyone brought their A game just like they always do.
Yes sometimes Carver is left with way too much to do in order to wrap up the season but I think he pulled it off beautifully. Was it Sacrifice good? No, but that season had much better writing (BE) so Carver could just concentrate on telling his story.
But I know I am in the minority here.
[quote]Yes sometimes Carver is left with way too much to do in order to wrap up the season but I think he pulled it off beautifully. [/quote] Honestly Cheryl, and I am sorry for arguing with you but this is the basic problem, he is the SHOWRUNNER. It is his job to make sure that being left with too much to do doesn’t happen! He had 22 other episodes to do it in.
I agree. Kripke had the basic premise of the entire season laid out before anyone put one word to paper. He outlined the basic factors that each episode had to deal with and made sure the writers included those specific plot points in their scripts. He was very hands on, and tweaked all the episodes for content. That’s why even unrelated monster of the week episodes contained main arc plot movement and/or relevant character information. I remember in an interview one time Sera Gamble saying she wanted to write and episode about X, but was told by Kripke that she would be writing an episode about cops, which she didn’t want to write. But when she realized what the episode was going to do in terms of the season arc we got Jus In Bello. Carver doesn’t seem to be doing any of that. He’s said on several occasions that there’s no plan (other than “Lets turn Dean into a demon!’). He let’s each writer fulfill their own fantasy’s about being in the show instead of making sure they write relevant and character based material. The MoW episodes don’t reflect the main struggle except in the most ham fisted and obvious of ways. The characters almost never reflect on their situations any more, especially Dean, which is terrible as he has the most screen time, the most dialog and the most interaction, and yet he is almost never self reflective, so it almost never appears that he’s learning anything about himself or his brother. Sam isn’t self reflective either because other than exposition, he is largely mute and isolated, so it appears that he’s not learning anything either, but you really just can’t tell.
No worries. My basic argument has always been that Carver isn’t blessed with the same talent in writers that Kripke had. He can lay out the most brilliant plan but if he doesn’t have the writers to execute that plan then he is kind of stuck. I know that Kripke was on top of each script (and we really don’t know how much Carver is involved in each script since he isn’t as media friendly) but he had a group of writers that could write beautiful stories (Gamble, Edlund, Tucker, Shiban, Carver and Kripke to name a few) and probably didn’t need much more than tweaking. Some of the scripts that are handed in to Carver look like they needed complete re writes (and who knows maybe the original scripts were 10 times worse than what we get). Right now the show has maybe 3 writers that are consistently good and Carver is one of them. Losing Edlund was a big blow. I wish the show could attract/court writers like Berens but evidently the budget for writers isn’t a priority. I also feel that many of the story lines have a lot to do with Singers influence. I just think that Carver is doing the best he can with what he has to work with. He is the show runner so the blame is going to be put squarely on his shoulders deserved or not. So I get it I just think it’s more complicated than Carver is an incompetent failure.
Cheryl you are far more generous that I am I guess. I can’t attribute all of Supernatural’s problems to poor writers; some of it yes, but to me the lions share is down to poor organization and that is on the show runner. It’s very true that Kripke had a great team of writers on the show, many of whom have gone on to bigger and better things. It’s a miracle really that they kept Ben Edlund for as long as they did; he truly is a brilliant and unusual writer who knows how to push envelopes, be smart, creative and just a little bit weird in a wonderful way. I am sure he’s doing well on Gotham. Still though, only some of what we are seeing can be attributed to poor writers. The placement of a MoW episode in the middle of the end run to the finale (two years in a row), the self insertion of the writers into the their own scripts to fulfill their own personal fantasies, rampant fan service and even fan teasing (which killed the highly anticipated and exciting demon Dean arc), errors in canon (nearly in every single episode lately), pacing, character details, plot hole filler etc.. these are all things that the show runner over sees, has influence over and is responsible for fixing. I don’t see much fixing, just more problems. I don’t see much evidence of JC reining in Adam Glass, who’s self insertion has infected Robbie Thompson who has followed suit. A show runner would be responsible for saying “hey, we haven’t been very clear about what Sam’s role is this season, write a scene for him in your MoW where he says blah, blah, blah to clarify.” Or “Ooops, those rogue reapers really do appear out of nowhere and have no context, lets add a scene in ep number 17 that fleshes that out a bit.” He’s not doing any of that that I can see. I wonder how much the brass has been influencing things lately too? My guess is that all the teenage stuff is coming from the top. “Hey Carver, how about a little T&A, have Dean leer at the girls, that’s funny, and we’ll get to show some skin. Win, win!”
Does Kevin Parks still work on SPN….
He was the ”Continuity King” last I heard.
Yes he does.
I think you are making my point to some extent. Some of the scripts this season (HACF in particular) needed a complete re write. I am sure that tweaking was going on like crazy for some scenes and whole episodes. That is why there wasn’t a lot of hype for some of them. And yes it does seem like the CW is pushing for it’s adult oriented show to try and appeal to a younger crowd. If Carver had a crack team of writers that could handle that I’m sure the episodes would be more cohesive. Add on to that the fact that the J’s aren’t going to work as hard as they did under Kripke and even Gamble. They aren’t going to be in every scene of every episode anymore. That is why you get a more powered Charlie (Sam and Dean aren’t going to rescue her every other scene so she has to take care of herself) to relieve the workload (and since they can’t come up with a decent story for Cas I guess it helps there too). And without Jared and Jensen being the focus of the show as much the series suffers. I’m sorry no disrespect to the other actors and characters but the show doesn’t work if the J’s aren’t front and center. And since this has never been an ensemble show the writers are struggling with storylines that fans are going to be interested in. There are so many variables in play here I just don’t think it’s fair to put all the blame on Carver. Singer is probably far more involved in the narrative than we realize. Allowing his wife to continue to write subpar scripts to me is unforgivable. But what can Carver do about it. Singer is obviously his boss so there you go at least 3 or 4 episodes every season are going to be iffy at best.
As I said I think Carver is doing the best he can under the circumstances. Maybe he really hopes he gets the NBC gig and can finally have the funds and talent to put out a better product. Then we’ll see if he is really as incompetent as it seems.
Well if they can’t do any better. END IT ALL.
JMO
They must be doing well enough. There are still lots of fans around the world that are enjoying the show. So I don’t think anyone is ready to throw in the towel just yet.
[img] https://41.media.tumblr.com/f212a7e903f09f3ff36e7594a1194747/tumblr_nnsf4etlg61sk69ewo1_540.jpg [/img] Meanwhile can we just enjoy Jared in a pony tail?
Cheryl is there another link for that pic? For some reason it’s not letting me copy and paste it, and I’m not sure why. I have always wondered why Jared doesn’t wear a pony tail.
I found it on tumblr https://36.media.tumblr.com/540118e94b8c302982547b5d3a575638/tumblr_nnsjzc9sqm1qgt7bmo1_540.jpg try this
https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/jared-padalecki or this
Thanks Cheryl. Too cute! I also saw a pic of the whole group after the tough mudder on the Supernatural wiki. They all looked dirty and adorable.
I have been pondering over this post for a while now and I want to thank you Cheryl. I now know what my problem is with SPN.
Running out of ideas and writers having to many scripts to write after 5 or 7 years is what I thought made series’ start to stink after a bit but, could it be that I have ”AGED OUT” of my show…..
Did that happen in other fandoms……I never thought so before but now……
I never pay attention to ratings because I LIKE WHAT I LIKE until the end. Could SPN try to appease a certain demographic…
I knew genre but demo too……” BY GEORGE, I THINK SHE’S GOT IT. ”
Then again I think of how much EVERY DEMOGRAPHIC HATED ”Bloodlines”
Now I get it I have ”aged out” of the CW. ”Yeah, that’s the ticket” 🙁
I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m a 56 year old who only watches 5 shows, three of which are on the CW. Either that makes me really juvenile and immature, or……..nope, I guess I’m just juvenile and immature! I choose to embrace it and re-brand it as “young at heart.”
HOW THE HELL DID WE GET HERE…..
I am 52 and watch ”Pretty Little Liars” and ”Teen Wolf”
My other CW shows are Flash and The 100, both of which are squarely aimed at the younger demo. But they’re both good, especially The 100. Even though it features lots of young, good-looking people, it’s a great blend of action and drama. There’s a lot more going on in it than randy teens falling for each other and having sex–though there is some of that.
Leah has been trying to get me into the 100. Cheryl to if I remember correctly.
I am sick and home so I watch wayyyyyyy to much tv. Love all my shows.
I’ve finally convinced my daughter (the one who got me into SPN) to give The 100 a try so she’s going to binge watch the first 2 seasons this summer while I keep her company. There were only 16 episodes a season (I think) so it won’t be nearly as big a production as when I binge-watched 8 seasons of SPN.
The writers can’t really be expected to keep track of every plot development in every episode… the probably meet with one another only once or twice a week. For the rest of the time I would imagine that they are pretty isolated. It’s the show runner’s job to keep track of all that; make sure there’s continuity, make sure the pacing is up to snuff, tell a writer to not write “Claire is better off on her own” in an episode after another writer said “The universe is trying to tell us something that we should already know, we’re stronger together” so that the characters don’t look clueless and silly, which Dean does ATM, changing his tune with each new episode. Thats on JC and no one else…. and it does not appear that he’s really doing his job very well. And if he’s rewriting entire episodes (which he may well be, some of them were so incredibly awful) then he’s overworked and can’t effectively do his job. Either way… he’s not doing his job. Dean is all over the map, saying one thing one week and completely contradicting himself the next. He’s doing moronic things, like slopping his food and leering after girls half his age for no reason. Sam has become a mime and has had no story or focus for over a year. Crowley and Cas’s storylines are a joke. It’s up to Carver to fix it, and he doesn’t, he hasn’t. Kripke is probably weeping over the destruction of his beloved creation seeing what it’s become.
Maybe they did a focus group and younger people WANT Dean leering and slopping his food. 🙂 j/s
That may be true nolanola, but that doesn’t mean that tptb have to pander to the least common denominator, especially when that’s never been THIS show. It makes me sad to see Supernatural becoming ‘common.’
Hi E, I am not sure exactly what you mean by the “least common denominator” but at the recent convention I attended there was a huge cross section of fans who were represented by all age groups, educational levels and financial status. There were as many blue collar people there as white collar people. There were people from aged 14 to 70 (that I met and talked to), and several people in wheelchairs. Some were repeat con-goers and some like me may never go again. The friend that I made and hung out with for the weekend, I found out mid- con, was a physician. I am not sure which of us are considered the “least common denominator” but from all indications there was much love for the show by all. I deduce from the ratings there still appears be millions who watch and I presume still hold affection for the show. If I am a least common denominator fine. I am proud to be among that number and glad that I still hold love for this not always perfect but still wonderful (to me!!) show.
Hi Leah, I am not talking about any one type of fan. I am talking about tptb lowering the show’s basic standards to the base level of obviousness, like girl victims who are wearing next to nothing for no reason other than for the T&A value simply because they’ve decided that’s what we all want even though they haven’t even stopped to figure out what we want. This show used to be more clever than that. The tired TV topes, bad dialog, writer fantasy insertion and fan service… to me that’s the lowest common denominator for a TV show and I am sad to see it on my creative, smart savvy show.
Thanks for the explanation E. I like some scenes, writers, episodes, and seasons better than others. There are some things I agree with you on and some I don’t. I can say that in every season there were some groaner episodes and scenes that made me cringe. Dean leering at women and eating sloppily are nothing new. Was it exaggerated sometimes for (bad) “comic” effect? Yes. I wasn’t thrilled about that either. I wish some things could be improved with the writing and POV of Sam too. I don’t think it is a conspiracy to “destroy” him but that’s just me. The writing in general hasn’t been as consistently great as it has been in the past. The difference for me is I’ve never not seen Sam as anything but awesome. I have loved Sam every season he has been on. The writers do not always do him justice. I don’t think they always do Dean justice either. I don’t think it has changed over to being a T&A show at all. I still think it is a creative, smart and savvy show for the most part but again that’s JMO. I see a lot to still love in the show and you don’t, fair enough.
Good points, Leah. I might add, even tho it will probably tick some people off, that I personally think this whole “conspiracy” party line is ridiculous. Where would this even benefit a showrunner, much less TPTB? But fandoms probably right and Im just being silly. Im sure the various showrunners, upon assuming their respective reigns, have all sat around and thought ‘Now that Im in charge, how can I go about ruining Sam!?!’ Hell with few exceptions, up until the MOC, it has been more like ‘Now that Im in charge, what storyline can I give to Sam!?!’ There are still some fans fearful that the MOC will be transferred to Sam thereby relegating Deans storyline moot. Do I think that is what is going to happen? I hope not. I pray the writers are more original than that! I think thats part of what Ive liked about the last two seasons. Normal Sam, warts and all. Of course we are talking post possession… I missed that Sam.
As entertaining as the idea of MOC/DemonDean has been, so far it has turned out to be a whole lotta sizzle and we are still waiting on the damned steak! Heres hoping that these last three episodes have been worth the wait for all of us!!!
Conspiracy? No.
Indifferent, sloppy? Yes
I must agree with njspnfan. Who mentioned a conspiracy here? Nobody. Sloppy doesn’t have to be a conspiracy. It’s pretty clear (via their own comments in interviews and on twitter) that many of the writers prefer writing Dean; he’s easier, more basic, funny in that obvious slap stick way that’s easy to write for. Writing Sam requires a bit more creativity and some who’s willing to puzzle him out a bit. And since all the writers and and the show runner in particular appear to be in ‘coast’ mode and since there is no overall plan for the season, entire episodes go by and no one even appears to notice that Sam hasn’t had anything to say in seven episodes in a row. That’s not a conspiracy. That’s laziness, and inattention.
Well I don’t think JC is re writing episodes really. But I don’t think he can do too much about scripts once they are handed in. I’m sure there are other people on this website that are far more qualified than me who can explain it far better. These are just some of the things I would imagine that a showrunner would have to deal with. I am sure that EK could have never imagined that his vision, his show would have gotten not only to 10 seasons but is so wildly loved all around the world. He’s probably pretty happy. I know it’s hard to believe but the show is still popular with a huge majority of fans. I’ve read probably 10 or 12 reviews for the last episode and they were pretty much positive to glowing. I’ve read comments from 100’s of fans on the reviews and mostly Claire was well received. Charlie isn’t as loathed in most of the fandom as she is here. A vast majority of fans don’t obsess over every tiny detail. I think most watch for the entertainment and they want to follow the story of the Winchester’s lives. Hardcore fans aren’t going to be as easy to please. I’m sure that TPTB are well aware of that. The tweets towards RT for “that line” were brutal. And he handled it as best he could. #calmdown probably wasn’t the smartest thing to say but the comments were pretty nasty. These people do care about the show. Every person who has ever guest starred on SPN has made the same comment. For a 10 year old show no one is phoning it in. Everyone is still as passionate about it as they have ever been. And I’m not just talking about the actors. Everyone who works on the show is as dedicated as they have ever been. SPN is going to end sooner rather than later and all of these people will need to get other jobs. I am sure they are putting out the best effort they can. It measures up for some and not for others.
I still love the show, even after it is long gone I will still love this show.
The way fandom acted over that line was inexcusable. Brutal, rude, wanting what they want and the Hell with everyone else. The self entitlement is shocking. I seriously wonder about the comprehension skills of anyone that took that line other than how it was meant. Everyone is so ready to get their hackles up over the least little thing. Ive read fans who whine and say that if they had only kept the line as originally written then they wouldnt have had a problem with it and I have to stop my hysterical laughter lest the neighbors think Ive lost it and call the police. Fans even berated him for the #calm down. As I said, sometimes an apple is just an apple. Supernatural fandom seriously embarrased themselves over this one.
Sorry the lack of comprehension comment was bad of me. I think a better way to say it is I think that fans right away let their emotions and anger read into the intent as well as delivery of the line and lashed out before logically thinking it thru. Sorry if I insulted anyone. We interpret things differently. The lashing out by fandom is what was uncalled for.
Fans react to lines that are said and episodes that are shown, whether they like them or they don’t. That’s why writers use Twitter. Lines are discussed and debated. Some are liked and others are not. Fans have had the same negative reaction to things Sam has said and tweeted about it. Fans have started tweeting campaigns about Dean’s perceived lack of storyline. There have been online campaigns, letter campaigns etc. and there was never a blink of indignation from fans but when fans express their disappointment and anger at a line then suddenly they are justified in your attack on them? Lashing out AT fandom is also uncalled for.
Whether it be on line or letter campaigns or fandom expressing their “disappointment and anger” – when its done with such self entitlement and outright rudeness, fandom should be called out on it. There is such a thing as reacting and then there is overreacting. The verbal rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth that resounded from that line went beyond even that.
On the contrary; many who noticed this also understood the context/reasoning behind the line change. Likewise, many have also noticed a distinct pattern in these “slights”. What can be done without is the self-righteous indignation, self-entitlement, and name calling by those who happen to disagree.
[quote]I’ve read comments from 100’s of fans on the reviews and mostly Claire was well received. Charlie isn’t as loathed in most of the fandom as she is here. A vast majority of fans don’t obsess over every tiny detail. I think most watch for the entertainment and they want to follow the story of the Winchester’s lives. Hardcore fans aren’t going to be as easy to please. I’m sure that TPTB are well aware of that. The tweets towards RT for “that line” were brutal. And he handled it as best he could. #calmdown probably wasn’t the smartest thing to say but the comments were pretty nasty. These people do care about the show. Every person who has ever guest starred on SPN has made the same comment. For a 10 year old show no one is phoning it in. Everyone is still as passionate about it as they have ever been. And I’m not just talking about the actors. Everyone who works on the show is as dedicated as they have ever been. SPN is going to end sooner rather than later and all of these people will need to get other jobs. I am sure they are putting out the best effort they can. It measures up for some and not for others.
I still love the show, even after it is long gone I will still love this show[/quote]
Well said and amen, Cheryl!
[quote] Hardcore fans aren’t going to be as easy to please. [/quote]
Actually this hardcore fan would be extremely easy to please. The fact that they haven’t come close to even attempting to do so (while screwing around with canon to make other groups happy) says a lot as far as I am concerned.
Believe it or not I am also a hardcore fan. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here conversing with all of you guys. I take the show just about as seriously as anyone. I think I have been just as critical of bad episodes as anyone here. I see what everyone is talking about with canon and continuity. I do get it. Hardcore fans are extremely hard to please. Because they do notice when even one word is spoken that they feel changes canon or continuity. I guess my point is that I try to take the show and the dialog in the spirit that it was written. I don’t think anyone on the show is purposely trying to alienate anyone. I really do believe they are trying to put out an entertaining show that everyone will enjoy. But yes hardcore fans are much harder to please.
I think different people define “hardcore” differently. I consider myself hardcore in some ways because I am far too invested in this show emotionally. It seems odd to me that I care so much about how these characters are treated/written that it can depress me at times, yet I have no control over that (yet:)). But in other ways I am not hardcore. While I think the show should be consistent in terms of canon, and violations of canon annoy me to varying degrees, I certainly don’t lose any sleep over it. For instance, I thought the reaper thing was a bit ridiculous because it violated canon on so many levels, but nonetheless I thoroughly enjoyed Taxi Driver because it contained the elements that are most important to me by far: involvement by both brothers in the story, with good action and dialogue by both, and a fantastic bro scene at the end with one of my favorite hugs. So in a way, like eilf, I consider myself an easily pleased fan. For me, the show IS the brothers. What I want most is for the show to focus fairly equally on both brothers over the course of the season, and I want them BOTH to be written in keeping with their characters. That should be the most basic, easily achievable goal of TPTB, but I think lately they’re failing miserably. Of course, exciting, compelling story lines are also desirable, but that is secondary for me. Does this make me hardcore? I don’t know. Does this make me hard to please? Hell no. Just give me BOTH of my brothers and I’m as happy as a pig in you know what.
Well when I say hardcore I don’t mean it as an insult. As I said I think of myself as a hardcore fan. I think I am harder to please than someone who is not involved in online fandom. I am just about as obsessed as a person can get about this show. When I’m not working (or watching baseball) I’m here talking to other hardcore fans. I am enjoying the show more than most here but that doesn’t mean I am not just as much a fan as everyone else because I am still enjoying it. I just set myself up for a pounding every now and then. 😉
[quote] I guess my point is that I try to take the show and the dialog in the spirit that it was written.[/quote]Problem is I believe that I AM taking the show and the dialogue in the spirit it was written, especially with a couple of the writers. Do they dislike Sam/Jared? No. However they want to write Dean as a tragic comic-book hero and that (apparently) doesn’t work if you have 2 characters who are leads, only the lone hero is possible.
That both brothers have been through the same tragedy apparently halves the value of the heart-string wrenching episodes. So lets make sure that Sam is only hearing the honest truth in what Dean says and should learn from it but Dean is broken by Sam saying the same to Dean because Sam is ‘harsh’. Make it look like Sam not having mother all his life is really no big deal (unlike the big deal it has always been made when writing about Dean’s life) and that, in fact he is responsible for her being dead so he really has no room to talk. Don’t have Sam’s mourning for Kevin shown in any way but let him be the person who explains to Kevin’s mother that Kevin is dead….
This is the sort of thing that is ongoing and insidious.
I really don’t consider myself hard to please. But I am so pissed by this two-faced storytelling. And I have just seen the latest sneak peak so ….
In my defense I am currently pretending (further down the thread) that ‘Sam in a t-shirt’ would make up for the travesty of the storyline – I think I should get points for that.
I totally sympathize with Sam’s tragic life. I love Sam. I am a Samgirl through and through. I just understand and love Dean too. I also understand the problems that you have with the characterization of Sam the last year and a half. I don’t think Dean’s story (at least in the second half of S9) was very well told either. I like this season much better. Like I said hardcore fan isn’t an insult. It’s how I describe the fan who is like a walking encyclopedia of SPN. A hardcore fan isn’t as forgiving of mistakes in writing or storylines. I would imagine they (or we) would be very hard to please and write for.
And I agree less layers (shirtless works for me) would go a long way for brownie points. I have posted many pretty pictures of Sam/Jared on the pretty picture discussion thread.
https://41.media.tumblr.com/159d3ac1e4ce55d4fb06d15a8c832e22/tumblr_njid6vxYgW1rlgbkbo1_1280.jpg my favorite picture of Sam/Jared this season
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Dean being all over the map is intentional and part of the effects of the ,MOC/DemonDean. Since his “cure” Dean has been “off” Instead of automatically assuming Carver is a hack, Im going to wait and see how this all plays out…
If Dean is supposed to be all over the map then that needs to be clear in the narrative and it isn’t. He’s all over the map because the writers and show runner are not paying attention. In order for it to work then it needs to be discussed by the characters themselves, but it isn’t so Dean says on thing, like “the mark is my burden to bear and I’ll bear it alone” in one episode, then says “We’re stronger together” and then “family just gets in the way” in a third with no one commenting on the change. If we are supposed to attribute it to the mark then the writers need to also.
Hi Cheryl, you’re going to be sorry you responded to my comment because this is a long one:) -I wasn’t commenting at the WFB at the end of last season so I never got off my chest how I felt about the last episode. The only things I liked in the episode were Sam’s heartbreak (well-acted) and the black eyes. Everything else about the episode was choppy, so many scenes felt truncated and so much of it made absolutely no sense. I truly found it awful, which shocked me because I’ve loved most Carver episodes. Some of the biggest misses were these:
Sam’s speech to Dean at the home of the lady who had spoken to Metatron was a combo of ridiculous, and too little too late. Ridiculous because Sam referred to Gadreel as one of their friends; too little because FINALLY, after how many episodes we got a sliver of explanation/justification for why Sam was so angry about the Gadreel possession–that it was he who woke up at night seeing his hands killing Kevin. All I could think was, that better not be the only thing we hear from Sam about it, because that should have been the first line of an actual discussion between him and Dean about the issue. When it didn’t turn into a discussion, I thought, well, since Carver wrote this episode, we’ll get the rest of the discussion later, as in Sacrifice. So I waited, through all of the nonsense that followed, and I hear that bizarre conversation between the brothers at the car. Dean says “about the past year..” and I was thrilled that the long-awaited conversation was finally happening….. and Sam brushes him off, as though the whole thing was of no consequence!!!!! not only brushes him off, but does it with that OOC comment about sticking “this bitch.” Sam doesn’t talk that way, nor would Sam brush off a conversation about the biggest, longest rift ever between the brothers. It felt to me like the scene in Dallas where we find out that the entire previous season didn’t matter because it was just a dream and had never happened. So everything that transpired between the brothers the second half of season 9 amounted to NOTHING, it was just a tempest in a teapot, not worthy of an actual resolution. To compound the travesty that was this non-conversation, we see Dean punch Sam and knock him out, effectively eliminating him from any significant role in the climax of the episode. In a way it was a fitting coda to a season in which Sam spent an inordinate amount of time being knocked out and/or eliminated from having a significant role in what transpired.
“I lied.” Just a horrible way to wrap up the Purge issue. See my point in the previous paragraph.
That alone made me hate the episode, but sadly there was nothing else that I liked about it. The entire Metatron and the homeless people story was weird, pointless and ridiculous. And how could the homeless overpower that angel?!!!! Just absurd, nuff said.
Cas and Gadreel sneaking into heaven and being caught? Again, that whole thing seemed ludicrous. The only redeeming thing was Gadreel’s death, which was well-done, and Cas’s confrontation with Metatron, which wasn’t bad.
Finally, I know I’m in the minority here but I hated Crowley’s speech to Dean. The whole thing seemed weirdly off to me, like a lover justifying/explaining a wrong he’d committed while still trying to win back his beloved: “It’s fundamental that I never lied”–all I could think was, why is that so important? “Let’s howl at the moon together”–WTF?!!! Well, the events of Season 10 clarified all of that–Crowley actually was besotted with Dean, in what has been one of the worst, most mind-blowingly ridiculous story arcs ever!
Poor Cheryl, I’m finally wrapping this up. To sum up, the payoff of Dean becoming a demon was like finding a small diamond in a pile of crap. Sure, it’s nice to find a diamond, but it isn’t big enough to make it worthwhile having sifted through the crap. Whew, it felt good to get that out!
But I’m glad you and most viewers liked it!
I read all of that, jsyk :D:D:D
agree with a lot, too. 🙂
So you did not love the episode?
I have only given one 10 in my life.
I loved it but it had its flaws of course.
Come on, you can’t leave that statement dangling! Which episode got a 10 from you?
Oh babe, I can not recall ;);)
What? No way! I’m not sorry to read your posts. You always have an interesting POV whether I agree with it or not.:) I understand what you are saying and you aren’t alone in your feelings about the episode. It worked for me. There wasn’t going to be a heartfelt discussion between the brothers because Dean wasn’t in the right frame of mind (since he was well on his way to demonhood) to listen to Sam’s concerns. Sam got that too. He knew Dean was off the rails and the only way Dean was going to let them go together was not to pick a fight. Plus time seemed to be of the essence since Cas and Gadreel had just launched their part of the plan. Now I’m not saying that the second half of S9 wasn’t a mess because it was. I just felt that Carver managed to pull it all together in a satisfying (for me) way. And for the record I thought that Gadreel’s story was the most complete and satisfying of the season. Everyone watches the show in different ways. My opinions are just mine.
I agree with you about Gadreel. I thought Tahmoh was fantastic, and the arc for his character was well-thought out and executed. His remorse and redemption were moving. Sadly, TPTB gave far more thought to his story arc than they have given to Sam’s in awhile but that’s a whole other story.:) So I loved the Gadreel arc, I just thought it was ridiculous that Sam referred to him as a friend. At that point, Sam and Cas had decided to work with him solely because they knew his help was essential. But for Sam to refer to the angel who had hijacked his body and killed Kevin as a friend? Nonsensical.
Cheryl – as you stated in a previous comment upthread… you are not alone. It worked for me as well. Good observations. I think the only thing I didnt care about inlast years season finale was the scene with Metatron, the angel and the homeless people. That was pretty weak. You are dead on regarding why there wasnt going to be the heartfelt discussion, Deans frame of mind and Sam knowing what was needed. Jared and Jensen rocked that episode.
[quote]There wasn’t going to be a heartfelt discussion between the brothers because Dean wasn’t in the right frame of mind [/quote]there never is a heartfelt conversation when Dean’s mistakes are discussed.Because Dean always apologizes when the water has reached their noses.
Yes and I seem to remember Sam only apologizing after he let Lucifer out. These two suck at apologies. It’s always after they have done something globally stupid. I just watched Salvation this morning where John said they are stronger as a family and then they all split up and everything went to hell. John’s boys learned every thing they know about apologies. sticking together and making globally stupid decisions. So S1 meet S10.
Until Lucifer was freed, Sam was saving the lives of demon possessed hosts. Yes, he was using an unapproved substance to increase his ability to do that and Dean didn’t like the way he was saving people, but until Lucifer broke out, I’m not sure Sam had anything to apologize for. Dating a girl Dean thought was bad news? Keeping people alive by drinking freely offered steroids/demon blood that were not being stolen and were not hurting anyone other than Sam? Hurting Dean’s feelings while trying to stop the Apocalypse? Asking either a prophet of God, or God himself if the burden of stopping Lilith was really on his shoulders, being told that yeah it looks that way then taking the word of God as told by God’s prophet as being true? He asked Dean to go with them to stop Lilith, he didn’t exclude him. Other than not doing what Dean wanted Sam wasn’t shown doing anything wrong in season four. Drinking DB was not good, but again, it only hurt Sam and kept a lot of people alive INCLUDING Dean and Cas. What he needed to apologize for was letting Lucifer out. He didn’t know it would happen, but it was a bad thing that he caused, but until it happened Sam didn’t do much to apologize to Dean for, IMHO.
Okay then let us REALLY compare situations after season 4 and season 9i.e the season after lucifer was let out vs the season after the Gadreel possession season.Hpw was Sam treated by the show (how Dean treated him is another matter) ..How many people blamed Sam?
Now this season,
How many blamed Dean?How did the show treat him.
Did Sam stop apologizing/making up for his part in the mistake?Did Dean support Sam or accept him?
Now for this season,
Did Dean even start to apologise (because the show has Sam cut off Dean and Dean just docilely accepting Sam cutting him off NOW)?How about Sam now?
Sam apologized to Dean and made up for going off with Ruby which led to breaking the final Seal .He immediately apologized for that and started making up for it .I do not want Sam to apologize to Dean for drinking demon blood or being a team with Ruby because whatever he did was to himself not to Dean.
Now about Dean,
How much time passed before Dean even apologized for tricking Sam after Gadreel free Sam appeared?When did he do that when he was caught by Sam at the finale.Okay whatever.
When the context,the time elapsed are neglected to white wash Dean’s action that he did not even think of apologizing… .I simply do not agree with your statement that “These two suck at apologies”.
The simple thing which I keep in mind is Sam and Dean are different.But different does not mean when I can think of the reasoning behind their actions I just have to excuse their actions.
The difference ( or rather the flaws i see in them ,there are exceptions when they act opposite) I see when i simply put it is this
“Sam thinks too much before acting ,Dean thinks too little”.That is why I think they are stronger together…also that is why I like the Sam and Dean from s1-5.They were truly how brothers with strong bonds but different in nature .
As I see now they are not walking in each others shoes.s1 has never met s10 and season 5 is putting season 10 to shame.
LOL…I knew as soon as I posted that comment I was going to be barraged. Ok I asked for it so fire away. My only point wasn’t who committed the greatest sin. My point was these brothers tend to act (with good intentions) without thinking things all the way through. When it all goes to hell they are always sorry. Dean was sorry for the consequences of his deal with the CRD, Sam was sorry that he let Ruby manipulate him (even though Dean tried to stop/warn him) into letting Lucifer out, even Cas was sorry he didn’t listen to Sam and Dean before he let the Leviathans loose and now Dean is very sorry he did another biblically stupid thing by taking on the Mark. They do these things for the right reason but there is always a catastrophic price. And now it looks like Sam is about to follow in his brothers footsteps and do something biblically stupid to save Dean. I imagine he will be very sorry about it afterwards.
[quote]Ok I asked for it so fire away.[/quote]I already did.;):D[quote]My only point wasn’t who committed the greatest sin.[/quote]Not my point also.[quote] now Dean is very sorry [/quote]Both my and your original points was about apologizing not abut how sorry they were.[quote] I imagine he will be very sorry about it afterwards.[/quote]and he WILL apologize.
Now the day sam turns into Dean or Sam dies will be my last episode of supernatural.
But even if Sam does something biblically stupid to save Dean that still does not negate the fact that Dean apologized when the water was at their noses.
[quote]Dean apologized when the water was at their noses[/quote] I’m not sure what you mean. Dean apologizes before the bad thing happens but it’s too late? Or he is sorry about what he has done but it’s too late? For me being sorry and apologizing are the same thing.
[quote] Dean apologizes before the bad thing happens but it’s too late?[/quote]No,Dean apologized in this particular situation late AFTER the bad thing happened and long after the bad thing had been expelled from Sam.
for me,Being sorry is me knowing that what I have done wrong and feeling bad ..apologizing is letting the person who I have wronged that i am sorry.
[quote] For me being sorry and apologizing are the same thing. [/quote]
This should probably have come up right at the start of the discussion. I imagine for most people feeling sorry and the act of apologizing are fundamentally different things. It’s easy to be sorry but not quite as easy to actually apologize to the person you have wronged.
[quote]I’m not sure what you mean.[/quote]What I mean is Dean does not apologise when they do not have any iminent danger.This time they were on the trail of metatron…no they were VERY VERY close to metatron.Now when all the urgency is not there the show (and because of this Dean ) does not mention it again.The thing is when there is emergency sam gives preference to the emergency.So when the urgency has died down Dean does not apologise.
Cheryl, I swear I’m not piling on, but I think throughout the series Sam has been better than Dean about apologizing. He apologized about the teensy Lucifer fiasco at the end of season 4 and several times in season 5. And these were heartfelt apologies, nothing grudging about them. When he got his soul back in season 6 he even issued a heartfelt apology for the things he did while soulless, even though it was in no way his fault. And finally, his speech in Sacrifice was in every way a wrenching apology by him for every time he’d let Dean down. IMO Sam has always been more willing to admit fault. In contrast Dean has always seemed to find it more difficult to admit fault (and more willing to pile on blame). The prime example being the Gadreel possession. He can believe it was the right thing for him to do, but still understand how deeply it hurt Sam, and that Sam was owed an apology–and a pretty heartfelt one at that. And I think it was OOC that Dean never did apologize. As he himself said to Gadreel, what he’d done by allowing the possession was “huge” and I always thought that in the conversation between him and Sam that never happened, he would have actually apologized. But the writers decided that Sam’s “hurtful” remarks dwarfed anything Dean had done to Sam and that became the focus. Hence my frustration with Season 9 and the finale.
😀 No worries. Like I said I asked for it. My only point is that these guys really are written true to character. Dean is sorry for what he does but he has a hard time articulating that. Sam knows Dean is sorry so he forgives him. Sam doesn’t need to hear the words evidently because Dean very rarely says them. Sam says what he feels and always has. He apologizes for his mistakes with words and then usually with a devastating sacrifice (SS and S). Dean has a hard time accepting Sam’s apologies. It takes some earth shattering revelation (TE, SS, S) for him to see what he has done to Sam. And then he apologizes in his own way which is usually begging Sam not to kill himself or worse.
The writers didn’t decide that Sam’s words were worse than Dean’s actions. I think the fandom decided that. The conversation was very clear. I didn’t misunderstand a single word that was spoken. But a lot of fans did. And honestly by the time that episode aired probably 3 or 4 more episodes had already been filmed. And by the time those episodes aired there wasn’t much that they could do because the story was going somewhere else. So we got the trailer park scene and the “I lied” scene. And if you think about it “I lied” is what is motivating Sam right now. He wants to make sure that Dean knows that he will do anything, pay any price not to lose his brother again. I think it is typical Sam guilt that goes all the way back to the pilot and not protecting Jess. He can’t make that mistake again no matter what. He can’t let those words haunt him for the rest of his life. And of course at some point Dean will do something to either talk Sam off the ledge or what looks like is going to happen he will take matters into his own hands, taking anything Sam has planned out of the equation.
I get it I really do. I was hoping for a big emotional scene from the brothers as well. I understand why there wasn’t but it didn’t stop me from being disappointed. Hopefully there will be a payoff in the (not to distant) future.
[quote]The writers didn’t decide that Sam’s words were worse than Dean’s actions.[/quote]
Actually they did, when they let Dean have a heartfelt confession to Kevin’s ghost but not Sam. When Dean was shown in stirring montages looking lonely and sorrowfully in the mirror and Sam didn’t. When Dean was allowed to express his POV over and over and over again but Sam’s views on the possession were reduced to a single statement of “shared housing” and a throwaway comment about nightmares. When Dean’s pain at what Sam said to him was addressed endlessly, but the repercussions of Sam being possessed were not shown AT ALL, Not. One. Time. Sam wasn’t even allowed to voice to Dean or anyone else what it was about being possessed that upset him so much. That is the writers deciding that Sam’s words meant more than Dean’s actions. With an imbalance like that it’s pretty hard for the fans to find sympathy for the brother who is being so unsympathetically and harshly portrayed, who seems to be making mountains out of mole hills over the brother who’s “pain” is profiled again and again and again. Dean’s hurt feelings were far more important to the writers than what Sam went through because that is what the writers WROTE…. Dean’s pain, Dean’s hurt feelings, Dean’s self punishment and claims of being “poison.” Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!
Well that is certainly one interpretation of the situation. And while I agree that I had no sympathy for Dean when Sam said those words I understood why he didn’t understand where Sam was coming from. As I said I wanted the big emotional moment just like everyone else. I understood why we didn’t get it but it didn’t mean I wasn’t just as disappointed as everyone here. I too have been disappointed with Sam’s story (or lack of) this season, the knock down/tied up Sam is also very annoying. But I can’t help it I still am enjoying the show. It still works for me. Not every episode of course but so far this season there are only a few that I haven’t enjoyed. And honestly if you go to the Dean-centric sites just reverse the brothers names and I hear the same complaints.
The finale saved the S9 for me. I know it didn’t work for some.
[quote]I understood why we didn’t get it [/quote]If I may ask, Why?
Dean was being overtaken by the MOC. He wasn’t really in the right frame of mind to care about how much he hurt Sam. Sam was also understandably angry and he wasn’t in the mood for warm and fuzzy moments either.
While your explanation explains why Sam and Dean did not have conversations among them selves.It surely does not explain why Sam’s POV was not expounded as much as Dean’s which was E’s point.
You said why you understand why we did not get it.If it you are referring to is Sam’s POV I do not know how Sam not being warm and fuzzy mood explains us not getting Sam POV about possession other than the two instances what E said.What we are referring to is imbalance in the POV being so lopsided.But thank you for telling your explanation.
….
Look the episode clearly didn’t work for you. I get it. I also get that the entire show doesn’t work for you. The show is going into it’s eleventh year and possibly beyond. I don’t think there is going to be any drastic changes coming. There isn’t going to be an upheaval of cast, writers, crew or producers for a show that is successful and widely loved around the world. SPN is making money or it would have been cancelled by now. I knew posting a positive comment was going to get a visceral reaction so I was prepared for the onslaught. But done now.
[quote] I don’t think there is going to be any drastic changes coming. There isn’t going to be an upheaval of cast, writers, crew or producers for a show that is successful and widely loved around the world.SPN is making money or it would have been cancelled by now. [/quote]Yes, what you are saying might be true and this does not have anything to do with what E and i have said.[quote] I knew posting a positive comment was going to get a visceral reaction[/quote]But the thing is what you think is positive is not positive to me.Visceral? yeah whatever.
I apologize for visceral I should have said emotional. I wasn’t directing my comment at you or E or anyone (although I did post it as a reply to you because I thought it pertained to the current conversation). I was making a general observation that I thought would be interesting. I knew that it would get a reaction and it did. But now it’s just last word territory. The conversation has turned unpleasant and I don’t want to participate anymore.
[quote]Dean’s hurt feelings were far more important to the writers than what Sam went through because that is what the writers WROTE.[/quote]Perfectly said.
Here’s a shocker Cheryl, but while I agree with some of what you say, I think E’s characterization of what the writers did last year is more accurate. The writers convey their message as much through what they don’t show as through what you do see and hear on screen. And we saw oodles of Dean’s hurt because of what Sam said, and almost zip about how Sam felt about the possession and why. Agree to disagree, I guess. But I will add that I’m starting to picture you looking like a modern day Joan of Arc. When I read this part of your post
[quote]LOL…I knew as soon as I posted that comment I was going to be barraged.[/quote]
I could almost hear you saying “once more unto the breach!” as you lifted the banner of (your) truth and charged in. I may not agree with you, but girl, I admire your spirit!
Like I said I asked for it 😀
As I just said to E I was also disappointed that we didn’t get the big emotional moment last season but I do understand why. And yes being a Sam girl I would like more POV from him. However I don’t for one minute think that the plan is to malign Jared in any way. I don’t think he has been forgotten about. I don’t think the writers don’t like him. I think there is a plan that got pushed back a little because of the early pick up for next season. I am still very much enjoying the show ( although the new sneak peak has me very worried about what might happen). And like I said to E go to the Dean centric sites and you will see the same complaints about Dean.
please shoot me some of those sites on twitter please.
nolanola9
Cheryl, now you have truly surprised me. I thought you were a bi-bro fan because you generally sound impartial. But to find out you’re a Sam girl! And the last 2 years haven’t made you crazy with the lack of Sam POV/screen time? Now I feel like maybe I’m a nut bag, or else you’re just a paragon of mental health and perspective. Anyway, your comment also has me wondering WHAT THE HECK THE DEAN FANS COULD POSSIBLY BE COMPLAINING ABOUT? For a year and a half the entire show, and almost every episode, has revolved around Dean. Seriously, what are they unhappy about? Unless it’s that he’s been so unDean-like? Do they miss lighthearted, funny Dean as much as I do? Hah, they’re finally learning that, like the MOC, having the myth arc comes at a great cost, some might say a great burden (to paraphrase Cain).
If you need photographic proof check out the pretty picture page on the discussion thread. Almost every Sam picture is posted by me. I love Sam but I will defend Dean to the death. Uh trust me you don’t want to know what they are saying on the Dean centric sites. That is why I only post here and one other place. I feel very protected here.
[quote]As I just said to E I was also disappointed that we didn’t get the big emotional moment last season but I do understand why.[/quote]
I’m not talking about the “big emotional moment.” I am talking about everything else that DIDNT” happen with Sam last season. Like Sam having a monologue to the Dead Kevin, like showing us those supposed nightmares, or some PTSD where Sam relives the kill over and over, or Sam looking longingly into the mirror, or conversations with Cas where he doesn’t minimize the possession but explains why it was the worst thing ever for him because of Lucifer and maybe have Cas show some SYMPATHY? Why weren’t we shown Sam wanting to punish himself about Kevin? Why did’t Sam go get drunk? Why didn’t we see him crying in his cornflakes? Because we were too busy following Dean around doing all those things and NOT Sam. And that is why no one sympathized with Sam or his words (right though they were) because he seemed to have no basis for his anger. By the time we got to the finale and the “big emotional moment” it was so too little too late that the brother could have spent the whole episode being touchy feely and it wouldn’t have been enough.
Ok I get it. You aren’t happy with the show. I am. We are going around in circles. I am not telling you that you are wrong in how you feel. But I don’t think I’m wrong either. Everyone watches the show in the way that satisfies them. The show doesn’t satisfy you. It does me that is why I keep watching.
Heh, your mentioning ‘I lied’ reminds me that that getting nominated for (possibly winning) quote of the season tipped me into a post that was a total fit of the screaming abdabs about what I thought of the season (screaming abdabs are NOT positive) 😀 Ah, the good old days of Season 9. I should go check and see if I feel any different now than I did then. Probably not ….
I MUST go back and read that comment.
What was the title and date. 🙂
double post.
Like Nolanola, I would like to read that post. I’m not sure what screaming abdabs are, but I think I’ve had a case of them at various times this season and last season. Is there a cure, or am I doomed? I think “I lied” is one of the biggest disappointments I’ve ever had with SPN–it’s definitely in the top 10. I know Carver changed the line at the Js request, and I’ve always wondered what the original line was. It also indicates to me that the Js, as wonderful as they are in every other respect, suck as writers. Also, what’s this quote of the season thing? Who votes on it?
The original line in the finale was “I didn’t think this would happen.” Sam’s response to Dean’s “I thought you were OK with this.” No offense to the J’s but the changed line was even worse. Carver’s wasn’t exactly terrific, still trite and woefully inadequate to filling out what was going on or summing up nearly and entire season of brother fighting, but at least it wasn’t totally inaccurate. I HATED the “I lied” change with the passion of 1,000 burning suns because it made Sam the scapegoat for something he NEVER said to begin with which is what lead to Sam being “responsible” for the MoC and is now fueling his “redemption” this season. Dean’s already thrown it back in his face already this year, compounding the inaccuracy completely. No one remembered what the context of Sam’s original statement (“No Dean, SAME CIRCUMSTANCES I wouldn’t”), not the J’s or the writers or the show runner. So Sam is labeled a liar for something he never even said and the entirety of the blame for the MoC fell on his shoulders once and for all.
Never did I ever think Sam was to blame.
But the show did, which is why we have Sam trying to “atone” this season. So someone must have thought he was wrong or he wouldn’t be guilty or atoning now.
You’re right, Carver’s original line is only marginally better, and it’s in keeping with the other two truncated conversations (to use the term loosely) between the boys about the Gadreel possession, in that it resolved nothing. If I ever meet Carver, I will (very politely) ask him when/why the decision was made to throw Sam under the bus in Season 9. I would also like to ask Jared why he thought that line was an improvement, given that it cast Sam in a very poor light.
For me the “I lied” line ruined the finale. That line coupled with the ending of Sam summoning Crowley made me really question what the writers et al. were trying to say. It felt like they completely invalidated Sam’s whole point of view that season. It made me mad like I had become invested in the character for nothing like a fool and it made me feel sad because it was like they had ruined Sam as a character. I really struggled with it, I actually felt that I didn’t want to come back for season 10. But I was able to work through it and come to a conclusion that I felt was in keeping with the character and the relationship that the brothers have with each other as well as what Carver and Jared had said. I like to think of the characters as existing in their own universe but in this case I had to try to make sense out of the showrunner’s and the actor’s intentions because the lines were changed in a scene that was meant to be climactic and the changed dialogue affected how the previous scenes in the episode are interpreted as well as the whole season.
I already didn’t like the episode, but that line actually made me hate it. It was one of the more glaring examples of how the writers just don’t care about Sam–what he’s thinking, how he’s perceived, whether he’s acting OOC. I will never watch that episode again. I watched it twice, and the 2nd viewing made me angrier than the first.
Jared shouldn’t try to pander to those fans. They’ll take it but will turn against Sam as soon as they perceive that Dean has been slighted and Sam’s concession will be completely forgotten like it doesn’t matter because Sam is again the bad brother: selfish, arrogant, cruel and whatever else they can come up with.
From what I can recall, Jared didn’t care for the way “Sam” behaved in the second half of S9 and he didn’t like the speeches Sam gave in ST and TP. I believe Jared adopted the narrative most fans did (myself included) that Carver was saying Sam wouldn’t save Dean. Sam’s “same circumstances” line got lost b/c of the harshness of the rest of the speech. I know I forgot Sam said that, and it seems to Js did too b/c they both commented on the idea that Sam wouldn’t save Dean. I remember Jared telling people at a convention that he believed Sam would save Dean. I also think that’s why he was so adamant about Sam saving Dean this year. He was probably sick of the show pushing the narrative that Dean cares more and is willing to do more for Sam than Sam is willing to do for Dean.
Anyway, with that in mind, I believe that is why Jared changed the line and why it works better. JMO though. YMMV.
What on earth was wrong with the way Sam behaved in the second half of season 9? He worked with Dean, was perfectly pleasant and brotherly, did his job, didn’t beat him over the head with what Dean did. Dean was certainly treated a lot better than he has ever treated Sam, or Castiel, in similar situations. Imagine the outcry from fans if Sam has treated Dean the way that Dean treated Sam.
I think Padalecki is just sick to death of the hate and harsh judgment his character constantly gets, regardless of what he says or does and so he now just goes with the path of least resistance. If his character has to be made out to be a liar to save him some grief then so be it. It’s easier than explaining to or reminding people that don’t want to listen and will never hear. Many people want to believe the worst of Sam and what he says and so they ignore important evidence, quotes or any mitigating circumstances. By doing that, their ‘truth’ becomes the accepted ‘truth’. By focusing on Sam, Dean’s equally ‘harsh’ words and devastating actions are pushed to the background. This is a tactic that has always worked well on the show.
I wonder has Ackles ever made comment on the many harsh things that Dean has said or done (has he ever even been asked about it?) and I wonder why fans have never made as much of these things as they do with Sam? Is it just Sam dislike or do they just expect an awful lot less from Dean than they do from Sam??
I had no problem with Sam’s speech in The Purge. I thought it was a reasonable, understandable and justifiable expression of his feelings, especially since he included “same circumstances.” What I objected to because it was OOC and made Sam look unsympathetic was his “we’re not brothers” crap (Sam would NEVER have said that), and his walking away at the end of the ep with Kevin and his mom, after Kevin lays into the brothers. The writer has Dean looking like he’s going to talk to Sam (so “reasonable Dean”) while Sam just walks away(unreasonable Sam), and again I found that totally OOC. Even though Sam continued to work with Dean and express great concern whenever he thought Dean was in trouble (which of course Dean was never aware of), many viewers focused on the things he said and did that Dean found hurtful, and I think that’s what the writers intended.
To keep it brief: I didn’t care for that “we’re not brothers” nonsense, and I really didn’t like those speeches. I felt Sam went above and beyond the actual issue (i.e., the possession) and indicted Dean’s whole character. It was just too much for me. I found it OOC and OTT. I’m also a bi-bro fan. I was beyond sick of the manufactured conflict btw them. I understood why Sam would be upset, and I was hoping the writers would let him express himself, but he never did. Carver just went down a path that detracted from the actual issue. Basically, I think the fictional Sam would have expressed himself better than either of those vague, OTT speeches the writers gave him, and it doesn’t help that the writers dialed back Sam’s feelings to the point of erasing them by the season finale when Gadreel was suddenly a “friend” and the possession was “shared housing.” Huh?!?!!? The writing sucked IMO.
Jensen has called Dean an “a**hole” before. I think there are a lot of fans out there who hate Sam. I don’t know why, but they hate him and nothing he does will ever be right for them. My issue last year was w/the writing, not Sam being upset at being tricked into being possessed. He had every right to be upset by that. I just wish the writers cared enough about him to write him in a sympathetic light like they consistently do w/Dean. Sadly, Sam is often thrown under the bus and given little or vague POV.
Well stated. I agree with and feel the same with everything you stated in the first paragraph. Also would like to see more consistent Sam POV.
[quote]What on earth was wrong with the way Sam behaved in the second half of season 9? He worked with Dean, was perfectly pleasant and brotherly, did his job, didn’t beat him over the head with what Dean did. Dean was certainly treated a lot better than he has ever treated Sam, or Castiel, in similar situations. Imagine the outcry from fans if Sam has treated Dean the way that Dean treated Sam.[/quote]
This.
[quote]
I wonder has Ackles ever made comment on the many harsh things that Dean has said or done (has he ever even been asked about it?) and I wonder why fans have never made as much of these things as they do with Sam? Is it just Sam dislike or do they just expect an awful lot less from Dean than they do from Sam??[/quote]
You’re kidding right?:) You must be new here. Jensen has mentioned what a jerk Dean can be more than once. The fan’s on this site have no problem saying Dean is an abusive, selfish, unforgiving brother. Jared has never, to my knowledge, ever said anything publicly at cons or in interviews that gives any credence to what you “think” he thinks. He has said he didn’t love the Amelia storyline. He felt that Sam would have looked for Dean. I don’t think either one likes it when there are serious rifts between the brothers. I think both he and Jensen have had some issues with some things on occasion. After 10 years it would be shocking if they didn’t. Jared appears to love his job and be proud of the show and his work on it. Jared (and Jensen and Misha) are smart enough to ignore the disgruntled factions of the fandom. Doesn’t mean they are unaware of them. The people who hate characters only see (or chose to ignore) whatever they need too to keep justifying that hate IMO.
I’ve been reading this site for a long time and I’ve never seen ‘fans’ saying Dean is an abusive, unforgiving, selfish jerk. An odd fan here and there might have said it but it’s certainly not all fans. Other fans have no problem describing Sam in those same terms on this site. To be honest, any criticism of Dean, or really any discussion of him or his actions in the negative, is shut down pretty quickly here. That Sams line half way through season 9 is still being discussed in the negative while Deams actions when he was almost cured are rarely mentioned shows that.
I also didn’t say that Padalecki didn’t love his job. However, he has commented on the hate that he receives on more than one occasion. There are videos of fans attacking his character (and also himself), the last notable one being to Colin Ford. It’s very hard to ‘ignore’ that.
Saying a character is ‘jerk’ does not relate to specifics. The specifics of Deams actions are rarely discussed or even mentioned. Also, ‘jerk’ is a term of endearment, so it’s certainly not a criticism of character.
I respectfully disagree with almost everything you have said here. Sam is rarely criticized. Dean has been called one or more of those things here almost daily. I never said “all” the fans. There are still fans here who see the good in both characters or I wouldn’t have stayed here for almost 3 years (2 as a member). Since when is jerk a term of endearment? They use it to each other as such. When dick or jerk or abusive is used here it is not a term of endearment. Jensen is aware of his characters faults he has played him for a decade. But he manages to let the characters basic goodness shine through all his flaws.
[quote]I think Padalecki is just sick to death of the hate and harsh judgment his character constantly gets, regardless of what he says or does and so he now just goes with the path of least resistance. If his character has to be made out to be a liar to save him some grief then so be it. It’s easier than explaining to or reminding people that don’t want to listen and will never hear.[/quote]
Again you don’t know what Jared is thinking. Is he aware of the hate? Yes I believe he is. They chose to ignore those types of fans. There are plenty out there who still love the show and the characters.
I love Jared but I did not agree with the idea that Sam behaved in a ‘wrong’ way the second half of season 9 . I have alot of frustrations with season 9 the speech he gave in the Purge is one of them , people chose to hear what they wanted to hear and ignored anything else it was also helped by the way they had Dean reacted so therefore immediately it all became Dean the victim of a brother who would not save him .What was done to Sam would of driven anyone to strong feelings just as when Sam hurt Dean in season 4 and was then expected to make it up in season 5 and nobody had issues with Dean’s anger or how he felt.
I cannot speak for Jared but I know how I felt to how the whole situation was handled and Sam was never my issue last season.
I hear you, Sharon, and I actually agree w/you.
I can honestly say I didn’t recall the “same circumstances” line when I first saw the episode. For whatever reason, I didn’t hear that or forgot Sam said it. I just heard “I wouldn’t save you,” and as a bi-bro fan who genuinely equally loves both Sam and Dean, I was taken aback by the harshness and the broadness of Sam’s speech. I felt a similar way during that penny episode back in S8 when Dean was railing on Sam and saying horrible things to him.
I know I missed that line, but I do think it is easy to miss that line. The lines that came before “same circumstances” were harsh. Now, some may feel Dean deserved the harshness, but I think one could objectively say that speech could hurt someone’s feelings. Again, I love both brothers, don’t prefer one over the other, and I thought Sam’s words were unnecessarily mean. So, given the harshness of the speech, I understand why some forget that Sam said “same circumstances.”
I hated the speech b/c it didn’t address the actual issue. I thought I was going to hear Sam express why Dean’s actions hurt him, but he set about tearing down Dean as a person IMO. That is how I viewed it. To me, it was both OTT and OOC. I feel “Sam” would have expressed himself in a more articulate way IMO. At a time when the sympathy should have been w/Sam, it went with Dean b/c of the harshness of Sam’s words and his subsequent actions. That’s why I said Sam had been thrown under the bus again. We didn’t even get to hear why Dean’s actions bothered him. The speech didn’t address the possession IMO. It didn’t speak specifically to why Sam was upset about what Dean did. He just ripped into Dean and indicted his entire character. It was too much. Dean was understandably hurt and the show shifted its focus to Dean and his feelings. Dean never even apologized for his actions!
To this day, I still don’t quite understand why the possession upset Sam, esp. since Gadreel was a “friend” by the end of the year, and the possession was like “shared housing.”
The ‘shared housing ‘ line was a monstrosity of a line that just makes me cringe and more just thinking about it. Made it sound like they shared a holiday apartment in Corfu .
The downplaying of the possession , implications and effect on Sam last season the inability to give us a genuine Sam pov is up there with the dreadful hand rub and quick fix of season 7 for me and it has been something I have found hard to get past.
I just feel really sorry for Jared because of the way TPTB threw him under the bus that season. What I thought, and probably what he thought, was that the writers were crafting an arc in which the Gadreel possession led to a justifiably angry Sam, and a justifiably guilt-ridden Dean because of Kevin’s death. Regardless of whether Dean’s actions in Ep 1 were understandable, it did lead directly to Kevin’s death, and we know all about Dean and guilt. That guilt would have been a more than sufficient reason for Dean to rashly take on the MOC. And that is the story that was clearly set up in Road Trip. Then for reasons I will never understand, they decided to change the narrative. Instead of guilt fueling all of Dean’s feelings, they went for hurt/anger because of Sam’s understandable reaction to the possession and Kevin’s death. So they portrayed Sam in as unsympathetic a light as possible. While I still thought he was justified in his feelings, they made him look almost petulant, and like he was nursing a grudge (which is usually Dean’s thing). The whole point of his Purge statement got lost, and to this day it’s as though the “same circumstances” part was never said. So I know why Jared felt the way he did and why he thought the line change was better. He was stuck with the new direction the writers had taken with the story, (an unsympathetic Sam who NEVER got the opportunity to fully explain the depths of the hurt he felt at what Dean had done) and wanted to do what he could to redeem Sam. All I could think after last season was poor Jared.
I agree w/you completely. It was a complete shift. I remember coming here and saying Sam had been thrown under the bus after TP, and no one wanted to hear from me. Haha 🙂
I knew that speech had done nothing but shift the sympathy to Dean when it should have stayed w/Sam.
[quote]I would also like to ask Jared why he thought that line was an improvement, given that it cast Sam in a very poor light.[/quote]When a lie is repeated many times,it has a huge chance of being considered truth.The vocal fans repeated the lie many times.But then again carvers original line was no better.
[quote] I HATED the “I lied” change with the passion of 1,000 burning suns because it made Sam the scapegoat for something he NEVER said to begin with which is what lead to Sam being “responsible” [/quote]This has to do with perception.The most vocal fans (twitter) blamed Sam, and writers and actors got influenced by this.For me that line made me feel angry as Sam’s earlier dialogues were disregarded.It gave more credence to what Dean and Fans (mostly vocal anti Sam ) thought Sam said and completely threw to dustbin what Sam said…and the worst part is they used Sam for this.
Yes, it’s revisionist history. And they are doing it again with the MoC. A huge contingent of the fandom thinks that Sam’s words in The Purge were why Dean went and got the mark, completely forgetting that Dean already HAD the mark; he’d had it for weeks by then. But the lie gets perpetuated over and over by those who dislike Sam as a character and lo’ and behold! Here we are in season 10 and Sam is feeling responsible for the MoC and is on his path of redeem his mistakes at all costs. And do they have Dean as a character attempt to clarify the misconception? No they have him repeat the lie too and rub it in. It’s beyond frustrating.
Samandean, and NolaNola here is a link to the thread. Season Not Fine ([url]”https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18570-let-s-discuss-supernatural-season-nine-season-not-so-devine#!kmt-start=50″[/url]) You will notice that 10 months ago we were as pissed as we are now and we were predicting what would happen and how differently it would be dealt with when it was Sam doing it and not Dean. Anyway it might make you feel better to know there were lots of very unhappy people last season, we have just been ignored.
And on Wednesday it pretty much looks like we will be proved correct (my prediction: Dean will berate Sam / beat 7 hells out of Sam because Sam has done a dark thing to save Dean. Sam will APOLOGIZE while still standing up for the fact that he can’t let Dean die (which has been what we wanted since forever from Dean and still hasn’t happened) Charlie will get injured / killed as a result of being near the book. Sam will be the bad guy, Sam is going to be ‘the Prisoner’ of the episode of that title because Dean is going to lock him up so he can’t interfere with Dean going all darkside. All of this will be considered perfectly reasonable behaviour by Dean and proof that he cares more about Sam. Not one single reviewer, except possibly on WFB, will notice the difference in the ways the storylines will be dealt with and all will either say A) Now Sam understands what it is like to be in Dean’s shoes or B) It is wrong of SAM to lie to DEAN because lies are bad when Sam is doing it. Dean lies because he LOVES Sam (and wants to bash his head in due to a curse) so that’s ok behaviour.)
PS I REALLY want to be wrong about that entire prediction. I really do. I actually could deal with Dean beating up Sam if the show were to show how wrong that is, but that wouldn’t happen. After all already this season Dean tried to kill Sam, didn’t even attempt to apologize or atone for it, and most of the reviews merely commented on how badly treated the car was by Demon!Dean (and how lovely it was to see him making up to the car by doing repairs). They will just blame whatever Dean does on the mark, and a lot of the viewers/reviewers will consider it just punishment for “Sam lying to Dean”.
Noooooo chick, you and njspnfan have ”connects”
you read the script……
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Oh My, what a blow hard I am. Yall have to stop me next time.
Thanks, I bookmarked it for later. WOW.
Going to watch MADAM SECRETARY, SECRETS AND LIES AND THE ROYALS.
tehehe
Wow elf, your prediction looks just like mine!!
eilf, eilf….dang autocorrect
Well let’s keep our fingers crossed that we are both wrong. 😉
Somewhere on the site I voiced a very similar prediction re a Charlie death/injury, and the resulting Dean rage which drives his “shocking decision.” But I hadn’t considered that Sam was the prisoner. Interesting. Also, I looked at that thread (thanks for the link) and what struck me, aside from the fact that I agreed with so darn much of it, was that a lot of the posters were not familiar to me from the few months I’ve been coming to the WFB. Consequently, I’m wondering if a lot of those fans have given up on the show, or do they just reserve their comments for the end of season threads? I don’t suppose you know if any/many disgruntled fans (especially Sam fans) have stopped watching? Many of them stated so eloquently what I believe: TPTB have done an atrocious job with Sam’s character. If ep. 23 doesn’t set up an interesting story for Sam for next year, I don’t know if I will be able to hang in there much longer. I just watched Shadow on TNT on demand, and what a fabulous script Kripke wrote. We got fantastic insights into both brothers, they both had involvement in the plot and excellent dialogue, and all I could think was “where have those brothers gone?” For the most part, what we’ve seen the past two years are two very different brothers from those created by Kripke. Sam, especially, is almost completely unrecognizable. And they can’t chalk it up to character development, unless development is a synonym for obliteration. I want the brothers back, and if that doesn’t happen early in Season 11, I don’t know that I can stick with the show. I have enough things to get depressed about in my real life; SPN is supposed to be an escape from that, rather than something that exacerbates it. Here’s hoping that Ep 23 surprises me the way Inside Man and The Werther Project did, and signals a return to the SPN that I love.
We are some verbose fans. Thank da lawd.
SHADOW is one of my Favorites. 🙂
Yeah… it’s pretty sad how good season 9 looks in comparison with season 10 which is way, way worse IMO.
I actually keep going back and forth on which season is worse. I liked much of the first half of Season 9, up to and including First Born, although I hated a couple of episodes. After that, all but one or two episodes annoyed the hell out of me, ending with the first ever HORRENDOUS finale IMO. The only bright side to the second half is that Sam had more of a role in each episode than he has had for most of this season, but I hated what was happening between the brothers, so it was a mixed blessing. This season I liked the first 5 or so episodes to varying degrees, then we hit the string of episodes featuring the incredible vanishing Sam. So like season 9, there was a long string of episodes which either annoyed me or were downright awful. But now, unlike the end of last year, they’ve sprung a few really great episodes on us with actual Sam involvement and POV. I think it’s coming down to the wire, and my decision of which season was worse will be decided by the finale. If it’s a good finale which sets up an interesting story for next season for BOTH Sam and Dean, this season will have satisfied me more than last year. In some ways it’s more like deciding the lesser of two evils, rather than picking a winner.
Double post oops
AGREED! EVERY SINGLE WORD!!
I’m going to work really hard to not form any conclusions about the finale until I see it. Mostly I’m discouraged and feel the way you do, but I’m forcing myself to watch it play out. Maybe it will be better than I think?
I was really feeling hopeful that Sam would be instrumental in whatever happens in the last episode, and that it would set up a story for BOTH brothers for next year. TPTB got my hopes up by giving us several episodes in a row with Sam POV, and lots of Sam involvement in the plot. But this synopsis only mentions what Dean does. Hopefully, they’re just trying to avoid spoiling the big reveal, which will involve Sam in an ACTIVE role. Otherwise, all of the build up regarding Sam’s desperate efforts to save Dean was intended solely to result in a Sam screw-up that drives Dean’s shocking decision. I really would like either a Sam/witchcraft arc or a Sam sacrificing himself arc, but this synopsis doesn’t point in either of those directions. But you’re right–I will hope for the best.
I saw a photo on tumblr from someone who was on the set and Julian walked by in Death attire waving at the fans. And I know they filmed the episodes out of sequence in order to accommodate someone’s schedule possibly his. So that was just a speculation on my part that Death is somehow involved in Dean’s decision. Also I was speculating on where Demon Dean would go after death. Couldn’t be heaven. Hell? Purgatory is where monsters go. So Purgatory was just a guess.
I hope that story that is being set up for Sam (finally) isn’t for nothing. He must do something good or evil to try and save Dean. Otherwise Dean dying again is just a let down.
I haven’t trusted dean since the executioner’s song. it was the same time last year that dean had fallen prey to the marks influence and started isolating himself from everyone who could’ve saved him, even to the point where dean punched sam in order to seal his own doom, ensuring he becomes a demon..either by killing metatron or being killed by him. I don’t think anything dean has been saying since he killed cain is of his own volition. dean is once again isolating himself from those who love him and want to help him, to the point where he’s demanded sam burn the only thing that could be his salvation. isnt’ that what the mark wants…the book gone because it could in fact save dean and the moc would be no more. sam is smart. sam can see the real dean, and it’s my guess that sam doesn’t trust dean as much as I don’t. now I don’t know what this so called decision will be….but whatever it is, I don’t think sam is going to go for it. whether sam flat out tells dean so, or pretends to support dean and then does a last minute save, is anyone’s guess….but I do trust that sam will do something to save his brother…..because desperate or not…compared to dean…at least I know sam is making the decision….dean on the other hand, I don’t think he’s had control of any decision for quite some time now.;)
hey Cheryl…what if you’re right and death does make a return…but what if it’s sam who summoned him instead of dean? duh duh duh….:p:D
you know what would be so cool…a real twist…and so very fan fiction….what if cain, who admittedly wanted that blade back, used some old dark magic himself….cain pretty much lured dean into that barn…what if cain found a way to trade places with dean…we never saw the actual death…what if cain and dean switched…parent trapped and dean has been cain all this time and the real dean is trapped somewhere….or perhaps trapped with cain in his own vessel…dean possessed….all this time….they’ve never gone there before….so it’s not just the moc influencing dean, it’s cain himself…
isn’t that the most ridiculous scenario you ever heard of:D….speculation fandom’s favorite pastime:D
Interesting! And not so ridiculous, I mean have you read some of the speculation out there?!? The finale would have to be a feature film! I dont know if they will go with Dean being possessed by something in order to save him and it all goes wrong ala Sam as a mirror to Season 9 but I could see them doing something very similar and then at the very last minute of the finale hit us with a twist. Now unless this twist is awesome then I think Im going to have to admit I expected more than a do over of a previous storyline however it would take us full circle from there. I almost wish Jensen hadnt dropped that hint about Deans vessel cause all I can see is how heartbreaking whatever happens is going to be for TFW, especially for Dean. Having to lose his humanity after just having found himself. I think the real save by Sam wont be until Season 11. I think, as many others, the season finale Sam save is going to be a faux one which leads to an unforeseen disaster. Stock up on your booze and kleenex, this ones going to hurt.
But beyond the pain and suffering we are all about to experience? Anyones guess is as good as the next persons right now. Me? As Dean Winchester has been known to say, ‘I got no idea’ 😉
I am very tired seeing Sam and Dean separated. This is very old and boring, and I for one am tired of the same old same old the finals year after either Sam dies or Dean dies or Sam goes to hell. Now the fans wood like to see Dean go back to purgatory, yes Dean likes purgatory because he likes to kill. This story is about the journey of two brothers, not Crowley or Rowena or cas. I am not interested in having Sam and Cas team up together I can not stomach it. Yes Dean wood be happy in purgatory because he can kill indiscriminately and feed the mark. But the fans are missing one fine point, the writers very rally give us want we like to see, I still do not see why season 11 of supernatural if the boys are not going to be together anymore what is the point of season 11. I was a fan of the X-files and the fans of the show become disappointed at times. So I see no difference here
Agreed but I can’t see them keeping the brothers separated for long. And, having the brothers have to save one another over and over again is getting old and I’m not thrilled with the MoC carrying over to S11 as it is wearing thin. Let’s get back to basics; the Winchester brothers, saving OTHER people, hunting things, the family business.
Agreed. I wanted to see the MOC storyline wrapped up this season too. Would be great to go back to the basics. Jensen and Jared said the same; they wanted to stop saving each other and go back to saving people.
case in point the writers. Sometimes but still we get to Sam with no shirt. I like so many fans wood like to see at times more of his chest. We have seen a lot of dean’s bear chest. Is something wrong with Jared chest? This is just one example the writers do not show fans enough on want they ask to see
TPTB better not REDUCE this to a tits and ass show.
THAT right there would be ”THE LAST STRAW”
Well you know if one character is predominantly going to be scenery the writers really could see their way to making it easy-to-view scenery … clearing away if not the trees, at least the lumberjack outfits ….
For example:
[img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/images/SeasonNine/FirstBorn/promo005.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/images/SeasonNine/IThinkImGonnaLikeItHere/spn901_HOSPITAL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/plugins/content/admirorgallery/admirorgallery/thumbs/SeasonNine/SlumberParty/Promo017.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/plugins/content/admirorgallery/admirorgallery/thumbs/SeasonNine/ThePurge/promo001.jpg[/img][img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/plugins/content/admirorgallery/admirorgallery/thumbs/SeasonNine/StairwayToHeaven/WorriedSam1.png[/img]
Basically if T&A is all we are to be offered, it would be (marginally) better than nothing.
I liked ”soulless sam” shirtless doing chin-ups and paying off the hooker. :p:p:p;););)
I love these pics, but I agree with Nola–where is that Sam, and Sam from Hell House? Come on eilf, give us the good stuff! (I’d do it myself but it’s beyond my technical capabilities):)
These are the pictures from unable-to-finish-a-sentence-or-get-anyone-to-judge-him-with-any-justice-and-how-come-he-needs-to-defend-himself-anyway? Sam (ie from Season 9) otherwise known as pretty-scenery Sam. I am actually surprised how many times in the season he was down to a t-shirt.
In a lot of the episodes pictured here Sam is actually somewhat active in the plot. In the episodes where he might just as well have had the week off (Adam Glass) or is having his backstory rewritten to remove him from it (Adam Glass / Robbie Thompson) he is all full on mulitlayers.
Sam was a co-principle character on the show in Hell House and as Soulless Sam.
Apparently the nearer you are to being the character in focus the more you get to (are obliged to, (cause they say they don’t like doing it much)) take your clothes off…
Dean, and I leave the conclusion up to you … has a shower scene in Season 9, and several half-naked-staring-at-himself-in-mirrors scenes … 😉
(ETA: which I am sure you would ALSO like me to post 😀 )
[img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/plugins/content/admirorgallery/admirorgallery/thumbs/SeasonNine/MetaFiction/Deanshower01.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/plugins/content/admirorgallery/admirorgallery/thumbs/SeasonNine/MetaFiction/Deanshower02.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/plugins/content/admirorgallery/admirorgallery/thumbs/SeasonNine/MetaFiction/Deanshower03.jpg[/img]
If in the 1st paragraph I was suppose to catch a link of Soulless Sam, I could not. fyi 🙂
Hi Nola, no, that is a long series of hyphenations, it’s not a link :p
Would I make you work to see the pictures? Nope!
But everyone is denied SoullessSam pics until morale improves.
good answer ;);););)
But eilf, my morale would improve if you DID post the pics. And I’m impressed with your powers of observation, i.e., that more involvement in the story = fewer layers. Hmmm, maybe I WILL get twitter and start complaining about Sam’s diminished role.
That was sort of along the same lines as this Samandean ;):
[img]http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu160/smithnosky/Blog%20Photos/13040-Beatings-Navy.jpg[/img]
And regarding the clothing removal, back in the day BOTH of em used take their clothes off more often than they do now 😮
That banner is very funny. I should post it on my fridge!
[quote]otherwise known as pretty-scenery Sam[/quote]
I’ve taken to referring to him as “guest towels.” Expensive, pretty and rarely used.
Sera Gamble was always /is a great writer.
I recall [no, I am not looking up every episode] Jeremy being a good writer as well.
BOTH BEFORE THEIR SHOWRUNNER STATUS.
So maybe if JC just writes no more than thrice a year it might pay off.
jmo
So Dean makes a decision that will change Sam’s life. I can’t say I’m surprised since that’s a regular occurence on the show. All Dean does is make decisions that affect Sam’s life, usually negatively. Sam is just the one who has to (silently) live with those decisions. The Winchester brotherly relationship/partnership? What a joke.
But you forgot the best part. Dean makes decisions that affect Sam’s life and then when it goes tits up, it somehow ends up being Sam’s fault, like the MoC. So I am waiting to see what Dean is going to decide that Sam will get blamed for this year. Then season 11 can be about Sam trying to atone for things that weren’t his fault to begin with….(same as this year and same as season 8) and then he can work to save a Dean who doesn’t want to be saved (like this year and like season 9).
There is one possibilty we havn’t thought of. Sam has the cure Dean now been totally over ridden by the MOC what except it Dean and Sam have a massive fist fight – during this fight Cas performs the cure – just in time to see Dean kill Sam Death comes along to escort Sam to the never never and Dean is cured I honestly have no idea Lets wait and see :(:(:(:(:(
In that case, I’d want Dean to first kill Crowley and Cas like Cain predicted. Well, I wouldn’t really want Dean to kill Crowley but killing Cas would make Cas interesting and it could be a great sendoff for the character. But there are real life reasons for why that’s not going to happen.
Its simple Dean’s radical decision regarding the mark Is to chop his arm off and to get Charlie to build him a super dooper computer one HEHEEEEEEE :D:D:D
The bionic Dean. There’s our spinoff! :D:p