We have a sneak peek for episode 10.18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a00hpnFrSNs
Charlie, Dean and Sam are all working to translate the Book of the Damned. It’s good to see them all together. Do you think they will figure out how to decode the book? Will the tatoo come into play? What do you think of this sneak peek?
DJ Qualls was at the TCAs (Television Critics Association) event today for cable channel FX promoting his new series "Legit." While he was there, he supposedly revealed (I'm having trouble of finding more than one source of this information) that he was headed to Vancouver in a few weeks to reprise his role of Garth…
Here’s the promo for Episode 7.02 “Hello Cruel World. Oh Sammy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIvPsgINyas Share on FacebookTweetFollow usSave
Here are the pictures for episode 21. Share on FacebookTweetFollow usSave
Susangittins tweeted some BTS photos from Supernatural filming in Vancouver today. They were shooting at Richards Parkade in downtown Vancouver. Share on FacebookTweetFollow usSave
One of our guest stars for episode 11.15 is bringing us attention in some unexpected places. Share on FacebookTweetFollow usSave
Here’s the full set of promotional photos from episode 8.21 “The Great Escapist” with Curtis Armstrong as Metatron. {AG thumbWidth=”160″ thumbHeight=”120″ thumbAutoSize=”width” arrange=”name” backgroundColor=”ffffff” foregroundColor=”808080″ highliteColor=”fea804″ frame_width=”550″ frame_height=”365″ newImageTag=”0″ newImageTag_days=”7″ paginUse=”1″ paginImagesPerGallery=”30″ albumUse=”1″ showSignature=”0″ plainTextCaptions=”0″ template=”classic” popupEngine=”slimbox”}SeasonEight/TheGreatEscapist{/AG} Share on FacebookTweetFollow usSave
It’s a good thing Charlie was there to figure out that the Book was in code! That thought never would have occurred to big ole dumb Sam. Gee, I wonder who will actually crack that code? The genius who apparently puts Stephen Hawking to shame, or the guy who loses all semblance of competence and brains whenever said genius is around?
Sad, but true.
I feel so sad for John winchester.If he had known that sending his children to Oz to roughly a year to Oz would make them so good he could have have avoided being called a horrible dad.He would have taken them to visit all their favourite places..they would have a home…ahh the missed opportunities.Poor poor john.
what’s wrong with her left arm..
that’s not RUFUS’ cabin.
Probably an injury due to someone with that tattoo. Either that or it is still weak due to Dean’s breaking it.
Either way – why are they in a cabin and not moving her to the bunker where they would have a lot more resources than a book that looks like it was purchased off Amazon and a couple of files in a cardboard box.
I know she is his Mary Sue but can someone rein Thompson in when he makes Sam and Dean drop IQ points in the presence of Charlie?
Also the Alan Turing reference, jesus we get it, she’s a nerd and she saw a film with Benedict Cumberbatch in it, last time it was Guardians of the Galaxy. But Turing was a real person, not a tree or raccoon. He did work that people depended on and then got whomped by a legal system, because of his homosexuality, which drove him to take his own life. But now we will have everyone going on Twitter going ‘look they referenced the imitation game’. That means Thompson has basically reduced him to a whole ‘look at me I’m a cool nerd, bitches’ thing for Charlie.
Next she’ll haul out her Surface and clear the whole mess up.
Well of course! She watched that demonic product placement from last episode too!!!
Now Fazzie – would that book purchased on Amazon come in such a fancy, fancy case? Look at all those sigils! Look at that construction! That’s serious craftsmanship, yo!!!! 😉 As far as A. Turning goes – keep in mind that Show isn’t targeting the age group that would even know…
[quote] As far as A. Turning goes – keep in mind that Show isn’t targeting the age group that would even know… [/quote]
Tumblr loves Cumberbatch, social justice and then there’s the SuperWhoLock connection.
So Turing is in because of the SuperWhoLock connection. Ohhh that is sad, real sad.
Does that mean we are going to get a 12 years a slave reference too?
I’m meaning the book that he is using to translate it. The one that looks like it wouldn’t be out of place in a community college library.
As for Alan Turing, the demographic would know who he is simply because of Benedict Cumberbatch. Because of a film that was out last year. Pretty cheap connection to my mind and seeing how last time Charlie referenced a flick to show she was cool it was Groot and Rocket, that makes Turing in Thompson’s mind as fair game as comic characters.
I agree with the outrage over the use of current social references and Charlie (never ever going to be a fan of the character, because of how they use her to diminish Sam) – but also want to point out that his name was Turing. Not Turning.
Not giving anyone grief, I recognize it’s probably just a typo, just making note of the correction.
Thanks.
And the moral of the story never reply to things using your phone when angry – damn predictive text!
Wasn’t she supposedly shot by the guy who didnt want to let go of the Book of the Cursed, Damned, Dead, Not So Lucky?
Seems they have taken the men of letters books with them. The cabin looks homey. Can’t wait what the Book of the Damned really tells and see where it takes. The name actually does already have an ill omen floating above it. Also I like the quiet colors on this scene. Can’t wait to see how it all will tie up.
– Lilah
Book of the Damned – mystical treatise.
How are they dealing with it, a couple of MoL books they have taken with them rather than take the book to the library where they would have more resources to deal with the information within it. You know the place that has mystical charms etc to protect it or stop it getting out of control.
Well, I don’t know why they are in the cabin. Haven’t seen the episode yet so there is probably a story point why they are in the cabin. All in all it just doesn’t bother me and like always I reserve my judgement or well how I feel about the episode when I have seen it with my own eyes. But as I am a book worm I am pretty curious to see what the book/books are. 🙂
– Lilah
LK – Yours is the sanest way to anticipate an episode. Prejudging it does nothing for you but drive you crazy. I’m trying to reserve my judgement right along with you! Tho I still can’t resist the spoilers. It’s a sickness, I know. Kinda like loving Dr. Pepper/Cherry Dr. Pepper…
I am trying to be spoiler free so I probably need to go for “radio silence” for two weeks in a bunker for the finale. The clips and pictures have been too spoiling. You should have seen hubby when he saw Bobby coming back in the episode. He remains totally spoiler free and his reaction was priceless. 🙂
– Lilah
I will say that the last few weeks the pictures have become more spoilery. I used to be able to put a picture of Sam and Dean for the front picture of the Spoiler Lite/Speculation article, because Sam and Dean being in a episode didn’t spoil much. Now there aren’t any of them together and I have to really work to get one for the front page that doesn’t spoil something from the episode for people who don’t want to be spoiled in any way.
I wonder why they are doing that? They used to keep all the secrets close to the vest. To get a ratings bump? I don’t understand it. I am the worst at spoiling myself. However they don’t need to give the farm away in the promos and photos.
“You be a better man than I, Gunga Din” or however that quote goes. Where the heck did that quote come from anyway and more importantly why was it rattling around in my brain?!? I can’t. I so want to not spoil it for myself but I’m weak, I’ll admit it… Kudos to Hubby tho. You know what wouldn’t be a spoiler? If they watched what they were putting in the promo photos! Bobbys hat indeed! That would help and now with the episode coming up with the big reveal of where Dean is and with who… That might’ve been cool to leave out so that it was a surprise even to the people who are (reluctantly) pro spoiler like me. 😉
I want that fireplace!
I live in the city so a cabin like that would be a place to relax and enjoy the silence. 😀
– Lilah
And run from spiders!
Oh look! It’s dumb Sam and Brilliant Charlie to the rescue. Pardon me while I gag. I’ve been doing a lot of that lately it seems what with Claire’s imminent return, Sam getting chummy with Rowena of all people and now “magic Charlie!” all things she touches turns to gold! Ugh…
where are those green faces they used to have?
What does the “green faces” reference mean?
I can answer that! It was an emoticon that was green and looked like it was on the verge of vomiting. We don’t have it anymore. E found that one very useful to show her distain for various things (usually Dr. Pepper).:D Now she just has to say it! I miss the green face a little. I found it amusing.
Thanks Leah. Now I feel bad that I missed out on the green face emoticon. That’s what I get for coming so late to the fandom.
Yes, shame on you for dragging your feet!:)
I miss them too… there are no more emoticons that can quite capture what those green puckered faces could.
I actually loved this promo. I liked the idea that Charlie and Sam are working TOGETHER to figure this out. The idea that Sam is stupid because she recognized it as being code just did not occur to me. I am surprised at that take frankly. They originally went to Charlie because she was outstanding in her field and a brilliant hacker. Even though I understand and don’t like the dumbing down of the Winchesters it seems like if she wasn’t portrayed as smart, what is the point? I already know what the response to that will be.:) I think Sam is brilliant in his own right but I believe she is supposed to be more experienced in IT and all things nerd. She was asked by Dick Roman to decrypt Franks files so it is not shocking to me that she may pick up on a code. That doesn’t make Sam stupid. He has his own areas of expertise.
It’s not so much that she recognized it as code, it’s that she recognized it as such IMMEDIATELY while Sam, who had apparently been studying and translating the thing for awhile, never considered the possibility. Remember in The Great Escapist when Sam quickly recognized the Metatron symbol as something he’d learned about YEARS before at Stanford? He’s smart, and extremely knowledgeable about a wide variety of things, although you wouldn’t know that the past couple of years. It just seems worse in the Charlie episodes. I concede that Charlie is supposed to be a computer genius, although Sam has consistently been portrayed as being no slouch in that area himself, unless Charlie is around. But being a genius at computers certainly wouldn’t make you a genius at everything, yet that’s the way Charlie is depicted. I guess I just really miss smart Sam, who seems to be on a prolonged vacation. And having genius Charlie rubbed in our faces emphasizes how the writers have stopped highlighting Sam’s intelligence. I wish I had one of those green emoticons right now!
Especially when one of the killers Sam referenced in The Executioners Song left his notes to the police in…wait for it…CODE!!!!!!
Sorry but I agree that this is one of the first things Sam would consider. You don’t have to be a computer genius to figure that one out. In fact, I would bet Sam has probably tried his hand at decoding said serial killers letters. Only one was deciphered. A little research Mr. Writer can be your best friend.
i’m not here to change your mind, you will all think what you want…but in defense of sam, as that is what I do and what i’m good at:D, first off, in the great escapist….sam recognized a symbol that he kept seeing over and over. I don’t believe it was code, but that he said metatron kept using this one symbol in his editor’s notes…and sam was lucky that he recognized only because he had seen it before…so it wasn’t his crack decryption skills that enabled him to figure it out, it was the fact that he was prelaw and had to do a hell of a lot of research and has the ability to retain his knowledge. And the code mentioned by sam was by a serial killer….I doubt it was in an ancient Samarian text ……..and sam referenced a letter that was in code…he never came in contact with a letter that was in code…he knew it was in code because the police report said it was in code….:p sorry, I know there’s a lot of Charlie hate here and believe me i’m not trying to take that away from you …I just don’t think sam is being portrayed as anything but brilliant….and Charlie’s expertise isn’t taking that away from him. 😉
I referred to the Metatron symbol in the Great Escapist not because it was a code, but because Sam’s ability to remember something he’d learned at least 10 years earlier in ONE course that he’d taken exemplifies his smarts and encyclopedic knowledge about many things. Again, I know it’s a given that Charlie is a computer genius, which bothers me mostly because I can’t stand the character. But I agree with the other posters that it’s absurd that Sam, after apparently hours of studying/translating the darn book and determining that it was GIBBERISH (CLUE!) didn’t at least consider the possibility that it was in code, while Charlie just drifted over and instantly reached that conclusion. Heck, I think it would have occurred to ME without needing Charlie to enlighten me. But I do agree with you that Sam is brilliant!:)
Frankly, it did occur to me even before Charlie said it that we were talking about a code. To be fair, I’ve been watching The Bletchly Circle which is based on women who were code breakers in WWII, so it’s been on my mind, but the minute Sam said gibberish, I thought code.
The issue for me is that the decision has been made that Charlie can’t just be an intelligent person, with a specialized skill set, who knows about the supernatural and has decided to help fight the good fight. Instead she has to be the smartest person in the room a crucial element whenever she shows up and completely indispensible. Heck Sam even called her “the smartest person in the room” in Slumber Party. The other problem is that “scary smart” was how Jess described Sam back in the Pilot. So, in order to have Charlie be special, she has to take over Sam’s primary role of researcher, and person who catches connections that others miss. Both Sam and Dean are eclipsed whenever Charlie shows up. Dean suffers less because his “skill set” is good hunter, physically the best around. Simply by being female, Charlie isn’t going to be written as being more physically intimidating (except when split into parts, then “dark” Charlie can best Dean), but in general, Charlie is going to be the best at what SAM does, so Sam ends up looking unnecessary when Charlie is in the house.
I have no real problem with Charlie being better with computers and hacking than Sam. Computers are a specialized field where the tech changes quickly and Sam doesn’t have the time to keep up on the changes in programming, platforms and the other intricacies of computers. Charlie could easily work, for me, as a friendlier, less paranoid, more part of the family Frank. Someone the boys need to turn to when they need computer hacking done quickly or encounter new tech that they haven’t used and don’t have time to research. The issue, for me, is that Charlie has become a broad spectrum asset and she trumps everyone in every area of the show.
I agree %100.
Persactly! 😉
[quote]Charlie’s expertise isn’t taking that away from him.[/quote]But is Charlie an expert in Samarian text?
Okay now that I watched the clip…
[quote] And the code mentioned by sam was by a serial killer….I doubt it was in an ancient Samarian text ……..and sam referenced a letter that was in code…he never came in contact with a letter that was in code…he knew it was in code because the police report said it was in code….:p [/quote]
Sam would definitely try to figure out whether the text was in code BEFORE he would be stumped ([i]”It’s all just gibberish”[/i]) if you want to use his interest in the Zodiac Killer as evidence. The first cipher was cracked (not by the FBI!) and it’s said that the rest might be nonsensical i.e. the Zodiac Killer sent them just to taunt the authorities. So Sam would have tried to find some sort of hidden message [i] first [/i] before concluding that none of the words make any sense.
She did show a talent in the past for code breaking. However I understand how you feel. Sam and Dean are dumbed down sometimes. This instance just seemed entirely plausible to me so I am rolling with it. I’ll wait until I see the episode for any further observations.
Yeah Leah, I see Charlie as you do. People seem to forget that Sam was on the clip one that translated the text to find out it was gibberish. I mean, I know about computers but my husband is the geek. He is speaking in tongues sometimes when he speaks about computers to his brother and I am present. The thing is here Sam knows a lot of different expertise but he is not super human perfect on every last one of them. Charlie has focused all her life to computers and hacking. Just on it.
I mean heaven forbid. Charlie is not my favorite character. She is not just in my liking and people have different tastes. But I love that she is solving this with the Winchesters and that the Winchesters have actually someone else in their lonely life to relate to and they have friends. In real life I have friends too that other people see annoying but friends don’t need to be perfect nor what I want them to be.
So, yes. I love Charlie is there for the most part. Also the boys like her on and off screen and contrary of Supernatural she is alive still. That is rarity nowadays 🙂
– Lilah
I agree Lilah, thanks. Their allies are few and far between lately. I am ok with both Sam and Charlie being brilliant in slightly different ways. I will miss her when they inevitably kill her.;)
I agree. Apparently Sam has had time to go through the entire book, find out that its in Sumarian AND translate a good portion of it and did not realize it was in code. Charlie takes a single half hearted glance and BOOM….. “Gee! I think it’s in C.O.D.E!” Sam can just go home now, clearly he’s not needed for anything.
But, but, but, the fire needs stoking!!! My problem with it is Sam works on it for hours, Charlie walks up, takes one look, scrunches her face adorably and then in one shining moment figures it out. Code, my ass. If you are going to write her brilliantly then at least make it brilliant. Not something Sam would’ve known 5 minutes in (knowing that the serial killers message was figured out by a retired schoolteacher, if IRC) and that the entire viewing audience has already clued (heh) in on.
The whole problem could have easily been fixed if the writing had been more clever or if the writer wasn’t writing with the “make my creation awesome” as his calling card:
“Hey Sam.. what have you got?”
“I’m not sure, I’ve been going through the book and trying to translate it, but what I am getting doesn’t make much sense, I think it might be code. Say! You’re a professional code breaker… why don’t you have a look.”
“Oooh, Code! Now were talking!”
Cut to research montage where she and Sam work to translate it together.
No cheesy, cheerleading of “hey I thought you were nerds… you GOT this!” from Dean and no Sam looking like a moron and no Charlie who instantly figures everything out in five minutes. Charlie still looks smart, her specific skill set is mentioned and utilized in a believable and realistic way and she looks less like some kind of fantasy character and more like a human being. And Scene.
🙂
I love your suggested scene, especially the research montage. Since Dean got the “Charlie trying on the fed clothes” montage (which actually made me gag), Sam should get a research montage. But what would be a good song to accompany that? I shall ponder that for awhile.
This is an easy one; “She Blinded Me With Science”. :D:D:D
I’m not sure I know that song but I’m definitely going to look it up!
early 80’s song, a one hit wonder from an artist named Thomas Dolby – it’s a play on a British phrase that means to deliberately confuse someone by giving them the impression of highly complex knowledge.
I just listened to it and I remember it well- I just never remember the titles of songs. It would be perfect for a research montage. I can picture them turning the pages in time to the music, and shaking their heads or stroking their chins thoughtfully along with the beat. It would actually be hilarious
Absolutely!! Perfect song choice!
Honestly it doesn’t. I’m kind of sorry I brought it up. But as long as we are on the subject. No one knows how long Sam has been on it, could have been hours could have been 10 minutes. Maybe it’s only been a little while. Judging from how far along he has gotten in the translating, it looks like the first few pages, maybe he was just getting started. Not that it matters, I still contend that Sam wasn’t made to look stupid. People who don’t like Charlie expect to see that- so when she makes an appearance for a few seconds in a promo = Sam looks stupid. I just don’t agree. Fair enough. Hoping the fire will die down myself.
No, I got you, I see your point. No fire here. I can take Charlie when she’s not Marysueing all over the place, that’s when I become a Charlie disliker. The thing about that is I guess it makes me overly sensitive when scenarios like this come up. I too would have liked to have seen Sam hand it off to her like in E’s proposed scene. It just irks when they make her great at everything, first time out. Like in the bunker gun range. I think where I seriously soured on the writing for this character was when Dark!Charlie won the Oz War single handedly. Single handedly. I guess like Sam and Dean all the munchkin (hee) troops and fighters were unnecessary and just in the way… 😉 “Sorry Glenda, I’ve got this. Put your wand away!”
Maybe Sam isn’t as smart as Charlie. Doesn’t make him dumb.
And why can’t Charlie be smarter than the people of Oz. Weren’t they duped by a snake oil showman from Kansas?
[quote] Maybe Sam isn’t as smart as Charlie. [/quote]
You take that back! 😮 🙂 Really, it would be offensive to the characterization of Sam if Charlie was supposed to be smarter than him. Remember that Kripke told Jared – when Jared was auditioning for the role – that Sam is someone who is highly intelligent. That means Sam’s intelligence is one of his defining characteristics. I think they would be going way too far if Charlie’s IQ was supposed to be like 160.
She was introduced to the show as a super hacker. She has been hacking into government programs since she was 12. Sam’s day job isn’t a hacker. He is very good but he has other skills that Charlie doesn’t have. That doesn’t mean Charlie has to have a higher IQ or that somehow Sam is diminished as a character because she has superior skills in one aspect of her life than Sam does. I just don’t see the dumbing down of the guys like some of you do. Now Bella was a different story. I hated that she was always one upping the guys. That diminished their characters as the most skilled hunters on the planet. Charlie is just the little sister that they are either saving, working with or having some fun with.
Saying that Sam isn’t as good of a hacker as Charlie isn’t the same as saying that maybe Sam isn’t as smart as Charlie.
Perhaps Charlie can crack the code by having better tech etc. but that doesn’t mean that Sam wouldn’t know to suspect that the book was written in code.
[quote]Perhaps Charlie can crack the code by having better tech etc. but that doesn’t mean that Sam wouldn’t know to suspect that the book was written in code.[/quote]yes exactly.Also the thing is I have spent this season seeing Sam ask “what is that?” more than telling what it is.He is smart isn’t he? But guess only Charlie can tell with a look that it is code.Thompson’s fanboy writing is irking me.
[quote] He is very good but he has other skills that Charlie doesn’t have. [/quote]But you see Sam can hack too and when That episode aired it was told that Sam had lost touch …but somehow Charlie being in Oz means her not being in touch.But then again I know about Oz only recently and I have not watched any movie pertaining to Oz.Does Oz contain computers so that she remained updated.
Charlie is alright but she is not a little sister to Sam , she is to Dean but not to Sam. Jared recently said that Dean sees her as a sister but Sam sees her as part of the team not that he does not care about her but not as family aka a sister.
Charlie is like Benny it depends on how she is used rather than the character herself. Robbie created her so clearly would have a vestige interest in how she would act and the skills she would have. Sam is someone who has a high intellengence but it is not something used very often by these writers .
When did Jared say that? It makes me a little sad for Jared because it implies (to me, anyway) that Jared is being protective of Sam by saying that Sam doesn’t see Charlie as a sister, that’s why they’re not closer, rather than because Charlie simply likes Dean so much more. I’ve always wondered how Jared feels about the way almost every recurring character prefers Dean to Sam, and this leads me to believe that it does bother him.
One of the recent conventions I think it was Vegas but it could of been Seattle .
I took his comment to mean that Charlie has a big brother/little sister dynamic with Dean. Sam doesn’t have that same dynamic with Charlie. It’s not how Sam relates to people. That is more Dean’s MO. They are more like equals. I don’t remember him saying that he didn’t consider her “family”. I could be wrong of course. My opinion is that Sam loves her very much and the feeling is mutual, albeit not with the big brother/little sister dynamic. Their extended “family” would most certainly include her.
Do you remember how the topic came up? I’m glad if the context of his comment didn’t relate to Charlie’s preference for Dean. I really do worry about Jared’s feelings in this regard. He’s very protective of Sam’s character, and it can’t be lost on him that almost all of the recurring characters prefer Dean. I wonder if it bothers him as much as it bothers me!
It was at their Vegas Gold panel it was just a general thing that came up it started off about Jo then went to Charlie and little sisters .Jensen said how protective of Charlie Dean is and then Jared said that Sam and Charlie are not like brother and sister but team mates , it is about 7 to 8 minutes in the panel. Jared was fine but I do admit as I never have seen them as brother and sister like but they do care about each other maybe it was just the way I took his comment.
Others may think differently which is fair enough.
Thanks Sharon, I know I had heard that recently. Yes I would agree with your characterization of those comments in this post.
Where can I find that video? So far I’ve only found little snips of that panel and I’d rather cut right to that part. Thanks!
Your text to link ([url]”https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JZoUNgtr88&feature=player_detailpage#t=404″[/url])
Hope this helps 🙂
Thanks Sharon. Jared’s right- I don’t see that brother/sister relationship because Charlie is written as being that way only with Dean. I sure wish they’d give Sam a special friend. At least they’ve started really fleshing out his friendship with Cas.
Here is the Vegascon Gold panel. Sharon said it was 7-8 minutes in. You can click on the redline close to that time it will jump you forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=7JZoUNgtr88
oops sorry Sharon I didn’t see that before I posted
Thanks Leah.
To be honest I can’t even remember where I heard those comments or what the exact context was. It may have been at Seacon but I wouldn’t swear to it. I missed a lot of the dialogue there due to the fan in the adjacent seat (you know the one). But it was recent and that was my takeaway. I don’t personally feel everyone loves Dean more. I think Sam’s tendency to be withdrawn plays into that perception, but that is just me and I know most of the Sam fans here don’t agree so I will avoid that can of worms and agree to disagree on that.:) I may see if I can track down those remarks, I may have missed something.
I concur!
OK I’m not trying to open up that can of worms, but maybe to just read the label. I think the only reason Sam tends to be withdrawn is that the writers now write him that way so they can write Dean having most of the meaningful interactions with other characters. That was NOT the way Sam was portrayed in the early years. He’s the one who wanted to stay in touch with Stanford friends, he’s the one with the puppy eyes, and really the greater empathy than Dean, who usually took the lead in questioning civilians. The Sam of earlier years most certainly was not withdrawn. That’s one of the things they’ve done with his character that bothers me the most. There, I’ve put down the can of worms without really opening it…kind of.:)
Agreed. It’s not so much a character trait on Sam’s part, it’s now more of an excuse….. and a bad one. Nobody knows how to write for Sam so they say…
“hey he’s introverted, he’s withdrawn, he’s a loner, lets have all our guest stars interact with Dean.” The whole situation is self perpetuating and gives the writers as easy out when they don’t know what to do with Sam’s character which seems to be always since Carver took over.
P.S. I’ve always been a can opener!;)
That’s ok samandean, I have opened it before and I always get the same (slightly offended) replies that I would even suggest that. I don’t think because Sam is kind, talks to civilians, has had friends when away from hunting makes it untrue. He said himself, long before the Carver era, that he feels people who are close to him get hurt. I think he has been portrayed as someone who is quiet, intelligent, contemplative, and a of a bit loner since the beginning of the series. Now as to the question of the writers finding it hard to write for Sam or using that as an excuse to have all the characters be Dean’s friend. I don’t know about that. I have always loved Sam, every season. He just has never seemed like a character that goes out and seeks friends. Don’t mistake that for me saying he shouldn’t have friends or that I wouldn’t love it if he a a whole buttload of “special” friends. Or that the writing for Sam couldn’t be better at times. I know I will get the usual disagreements on this. I know I am in the minority on this here at WFB. Well aware!:)
I find your take on this interesting because I’ve always felt the opposite. To me, the Sam of the first 6 seasons was neither a loner nor an introvert. In fact, more so than Dean he seemed to enjoy connecting with the people they met. He seemed a little different in season 7 what with Lucifer being in his head, but I didn’t think he started seeming like an introvert until season 8. Maybe hitting that dog changed him on a fundamental level! I thought in the earlier years Dean held back a little and didn’t seem to want to anything more than superficial connections to the people they met. Like in Scarecrow when he had such (comical) trouble engaging with the couple in the cafe that he was trying to warn and wished that Sam was with him. It’s almost like Sam and Dean have switched personalities in this regard. When I watch episodes from the early seasons I will focus on that aspect and see if Sam seems more introverted than I recall. Otherwise, agree to disagree!
[quote]He just has never seemed like a character that goes out and seeks friends.[/quote]Dean does not go out and seek friends too.The thing is this..and this is a little personal but i will share it.My younger brother is more out going than me..I like to read books while he goes out has a large group of friends…He is generally what you can say has a large group of friends..but at the same time I have my own group of friends who will be there for me .The thing is Sam is not anti social.This is a show with two leads..for one character to not have a person will choose him above Dean is really ridiculous.I think you disagree with this.. but this is how I see it.Sam is nerdy so, do all nerdy people need to be primarily Sam’s friends…not at least frank or Charlie would be sufficient but neither is/was.Now Jody would have been a character who was like this but as now she is not.Such characters give praise to the characters they are close to.Charlie’s love to Dean is to praise him for saving the world and her love for Sam is to well to say how unlucky he is with women.They also give us insight into Sam Jody has failed miserably regarding Sam.
You make a good point anonymous. Even if Sam was an introvert (which didn’t used to be the case IMO), why does that mean he wouldn’t have friends? Even introverts have friends. There should be some people that the Winchesters meet who would naturally gravitate to Sam rather than to Dean. He’s smart, tough, funny, sensitive and considerate. Heck, the reason I’m a Sam fan is because in real life he is the kind of person I’d want as a friend (or more :)). Not that there wouldn’t be many people who would prefer Dean as a friend- the Dean fans do outnumber the Sam fans– but you’d think at least a few of their acquaintances/friends would feel closer to Sam. Aside from Jody (which hasn’t panned out), I always hoped Sam would develop a close friendship with Kevin because they’re so much alike, but that never came about. Maybe this new psychic guy from Inside Man will be Sam’s friend–he seems just as much in need of one as Sam does!
I agree with samandean10 and anonymous (sorry Leah!!, I’ll bet you could see THAT coming from a mile off :D). In season 1 Sam was shown to have a large group of friends at school, was well liked and social. He connected with Rebecca and Zach, and Sarah, Eve, Andy, the preacher’s daughter in Hookman, the kid in bugs, Max, Madison, Ellen, and even Ruby (yeah, I know, but he still connected to her and she was a character who was interested in Sam, spoke with Sam and had little interest in Dean). That’s what I could find in the early seasons. There is an notable decline in season 4 due to the blood arc. He’s never recovered from that time. The writers have continued to write him as though he is isolated by demon blood even though that whole plot point is no longer relevant. To fill the void they’ve since had Dean connect with all of the guest stars since. It’s irritating because it’s always been canon that Sam is more comfortable with people who are emotional and less inclined to behave inappropriately. It’s just lazy writing or a basic lack of knowledge that has the writers basically continuing on with the current level of stereo typing instead of exploring how all of the events of recent years might have changed who the characters function.
Hi E and samandean. Getting kind of skinny (I wish) here but I will be brief. I have had this impression of Sam from the get-go. Before I even knew of an online fandom. Yes he’s had friends. He a wonderful person why wouldn’t people want to be his friends? In college he felt safe, though I would dispute he had a huge group of friends. I never said he didn’t ever have friends. In the high school flashback he seemed quiet and reserved, that doesn’t make him weird or not deserving of friends. I think Sam is by nature, reserved. I will stick by that assessment.:)
You know what I just remembered? One of the few people who liked Sam and did not like Dean was cousin Christian in Season 6. Of course the Sam he liked was the soulless version who was pretty different from regular Sam, and of course Christian was actually a demon. So that’s a pretty twisted version of friendship.
[quote]naturally gravitate to Sam rather than to Dean.[/quote]Yes.
Thanks for sharing something personal anonymousN. I never said he was anti-social. I do think he is generally quiet and reserved and has never shown any indication that not having a circle of friends is something that bothers him. He simply keeps to himself for the most part. Dean does not. I am not sure what you think I disagree with. Do you think I don’t wish for Sam to have more friends? I love him of course I do. I hope he can have some friends that are his alone. What I may disagree with is that everybody likes Dean better. I think most of their mutual friends think of them as SAMANDDDEAN (spaces left out deliberately) the Winchesters. I think most them are fond of both of them. It is unfortunate that the writers gave Charlie that line about ‘unlucky in love’. I think it was supposed to be funny and it wasn’t. Some fans will NEVER forgive the character Charlie for that one, even though she has shown a great deal of affection for Sam and clearly wasn’t trying to be cruel.
Although I’m not fond of Charlie, I don’t hate her for the remark about no luck with the ladies. It did make me less happy with Robbie Thompson, because HE thought it was funny. It pretty much demonstrated how little regard the writing team has had for Sam since Carver took over. I know they like to wink at fandom and it was taking a fandom joke and putting it on screen, but in the context of the show, it shouldn’t be a joke.
Charlie had the potential to be a good character, my big issue is the writers need to make her the biggest, best ever while Sam and Dean get dumbed down and pushed off screen, Sam far more than Dean.
It’s true, she gets in a mean little dig at Sam, and nothing bad about Dean. She had a wealth of material she could have drawn upon to make a dig at Dean–the drinking and the sleeping around, for starters. But no, there’s too much of a “special bond” between them.
I know you did not Leah and I did not mean to say you were.Maybe I could have put it better.[quote]What I may disagree with is that everybody likes Dean better.[/quote]I do not know anyone on the show now who does not loves/likes Dean better or loves/likes Sam more.If you can think of anyone please do tell me.I am not being snarky..I really cant think of anyone.
For me the really missed opportunities were Kevin,Chrissy and Frank.Jody –the recent episode with her disappointed me immensely.
Well, I do think many of their friends like them equally. I also think Bobby loved them equally in spite of what some believe. Am I am not so sure that Jody doesn’t like him better even though they didn’t have much contact in the last episode. I don’t know how to say this but just because some of these people interact more with Dean doesn’t necessarily mean they like him so much better. However I do understand the desire to have Sam have people who clearly like him better. I do.
Hi Leah,
Im trying to respond to your post, but the system won’t let me do so directly under your comment, I guess we’ve run out of room :p
Not to be contradictory or anything, but from Bobby himself in You Can’t Handle The Truth:
BOBBY
I never told anyone that. Why am I telling you? [b]Maybe ’cause you’re my favorite[/b]. Although, Sam’s a better hunter. Lately, anyway.
I just thought the line was in poor taste. It is a struggle enough for Sam to be seen as hero as it is but I thought it was just a sympton of the attitude towards Sam since the beginning of season 8 .
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YIKES!!! Sharon….hehe…why is it always you?
Poking my head in here for a moment. How can Sam and Charlie even have a personal relationship? Charlie herself said everything she knows about Sam she got from the Supernatural books. Which is how she knew Sam could do the trials. Nope…not from KNOWING Sam personally but reading a book.
She knows him personally amyh. She read some stuff about both of them. I think she has a nice relationship with Sam. Maybe not little sister/big bro, that is how Dean tends to relate to younger people, but as a good friend and equal.
Leah, I’m right there with your earlier can of words comment. The thread is messing up on me so I couldn’t say so there. The comments made by others in response are coming thru too hard to read so I don’t know what is being said after.
Why would Sam love Charlie though? He may like her but loving her would be pushing it a bit IMO. They aren’t even that close.
Hmm, I don’t know, I need to think about that, but I feel there is love there. There are all kind of levels of love. I think he loves her as a friend. Maybe there haven’t been deep and meaningful conversations but I do think there is a closeness there.They have known each for some time now and they have all been through some intense stuff together. That tends to bond people. Maybe he just likes her a great deal. Nah, I’m sticking with love. If, or rather when, she is killed I think they would both be wrecked.
I don’t know. I have never gotten the feeling that Sam and Charlie have had a close relationship or even a friendship. When Charlie is on screen, she spends most of her time w/Dean. I can’t even think of a scene they’ve shared alone. Have they even had a conversation by themselves? If they have, it has been very rare.
The problem is the writers refuse to write scenes for Sam and guest/recurring characters. They don’t develop Sam’s own relationships w/these ppl but rather just piggy back off of Dean’s relationships w/them so if Dean loves them, then Sam does even though Sam and X person have never even had a personal conversation. It’s annoying and lazy writing, IMO.
That said, I definitely don’t think Sam loves Charlie. Dean probably does, but I can’t imagine Sam would love her. That’s a pretty strong sentiment, IMO. I don’t think the Sam/Charlie relationship – whatever it may be – has developed to that point. Sam and Charlie barely speak to each other.
But that’s JMO.
You are almost certainly right as evidenced by the Felicia Day interview that was posted recently in the News section. Felicia flat out refers to her “strong bond” with Dean and says not a word about any kind of bond with Sam. Very depressing for poor Sam.
Wow . . . . haha . . . can’t say I’m shocked. I would be more shocked if she had talked up the strong bond btw her and Sam – someone with whom her character barely interacts.
Exactly,I see sam liking Charlie nothing more..but lala wait for the latest episode he will singing her praise and say he loves her as a sister. *blech*
Agreed, Anon! I can buy Sam liking Charlie, but I just can’t buy him loving her. As you said though, I’m sure he’ll be singing Charlie’s praises in the next episode as is standard practice w/Charlie episodes.
Actually, it turns out that Charlie sings her own praises and Sam sits there silently and nods in agreement. At least they are alone in the room together, so i guess in TPTB’s eyes, that’s a meaningful relationship as far as Sam is concerned.
[quote]At least they are alone in the room together, so i guess in TPTB’s eyes, that’s a meaningful relationship as far as Sam is concerned.[/quote]
Hahahaha 🙂
Jared had made similar comments about Castiel. I’m not sure if he still feels the same way, but I remember him remarking a few seasons back that Castiel was Dean’s friend. He explicitly said that Sam and Cas were NOT friends, which was in line w/what I thought anyway. I, personally, don’t see Sam and Charlie as friends so I’m not shocked Jared doesn’t see her as a “sister” for Sam. Honestly, Sam doesn’t, IMO, have any friends on this show I haven’t viewed any of the recurring characters – Bobby included – as Sam’s friends. They have all been Dean’s friends!
I do think Jody is his friend and may actually like him more than she likes Dean. It’s one of the reasons I wish she appeared more.
I also really thought that Jody and Sam had a more special friendship because they had some quality time while Dean was with Ness and with the virgins circle girl. But the last two episodes with Jody that hasn’t seemed true, which bummed me out. Dammit, Sam needs a special friend! Come on writers!
I agree with this also, Jody showed almost now interest in Sam in A4 or in the Jody/Donna episode; she said not one personal thing to him, nor many any attempt to connect on a deeper level with him in any way. I am beginning to think that the Jody/Sam “relationship” in the Elliott Ness episode was a one off…they only did that out of necessity because of the episode and haven’t followed through on it in any way.
They got my hopes up about a Sam and Jody friendship and then pulled the rug out by having her adopt that vampire girl.
[quote]I agree with this also, Jody showed almost now interest in Sam in A4 or in the Jody/Donna episode; she said not one personal thing to him, nor many any attempt to connect on a deeper level with him in any way. [/quote]
See . . . . this is what I’m talking about. Those deeper connections can only be built through actual interactions btw the characters. Sam rarely, if ever, interacts w/anyone, which is why it is hard for me to see him as being friends w/anyone other than Dean.
Yikes! Ignore all those typos. Hey Lala… good to see/hear you 🙂
If Jody was such a good friend of Sams….then where was she when Sam thought Dean was dead and he ‘imploded’? Why wasn’t she in the loop when Sam was searching for DemonDean? Like each other? Sure. Friends? Nope. Season 8 really ruined any Jody/Sam bond that may have been growing for me. And Bobby talked out of both sides of his mouth in regards to Sam.
Agreed! What meaningful interaction have Sam and Jody ever had? I only remember her helping him out when Dean was stuck in the wild west, but they were focused on saving Dean. They didn’t have any personal conversations or interactions!
Ok well here’s one. In season 9 Rock and a Hard place they had a conversation (while Dean was off boffing the Casa Erotica gal) about faith. Sure it was a short conversation, and Jody did most of the talking, but she was confiding in him in a way that she hadn’t talked to the boys before. So silly me, I assumed Sam was finally going to have a closer relationship with a recurring character than Dean had. That was the last of anything resembling a personal conversation between Sam and Jody, so obviously I was wrong.
Hmmmm . . . . I honestly cannot think of one Sam/Jody moment on the show so I can’t say I agree w/you. However, I admit to this season being extremely forgettable so it is entirely possible that I’m forgetting a scene. She was on this year, right? But I thought she mostly hung out w/that other sheriff. I just wish we could see Sam having private, personal conversations w/guest and recurring stars like Dean often does. They’ve made Sam into such a loner. He really only talks to Dean, and this year, he’s not even doing that!
I can see that for Cas and Sam, even still though they are working together more, but the common thing is Dean. There is something lacking in their relationship compared to the ease between Cas and Dean.
I suppose it will always come back to the fact of what Cas is and Sam letting Lucifer out of the cage. Cas was one of the few to call Sam on those fact in season 5 and it must embarrass Sam that Cas has deemed him an abomination, not to mention the whole making him one without realizing when he got pulled back without a soul. As for other friends, other than Jody, I don’t see anyone picking Sam first but that has a lot to do with Sam closing himself off a little which is completely understandable. Dean blames himself for peoples deaths, he blames himself for outcomes. However, Sam sees himself as the cause of deaths and pain about and unfortunately he has a lot more evidence to back that feeling up than Dean does.
I don’t even think it’s that deep for Cas and Sam. Sam and Cas aren’t actual friends b/c the writers haven’t bothered to develop that relationship. It’s as simple as that, IMO, and that goes for everyone else on this show The writers don’t care enough about Sam to show him developing his own relationships w/these characters. It’s enough that Dean likes them and is friends w/them so by extension – in the writers’ minds – Sam likes them too and has similar relationships w/them. The writers don’t seem to care that there are no episodes and/or scenes to back up these “Sam relationships,” which is why they seem false in my eyes.
On this point I have to disagree lala. This year is the first time that I feel like Sam and Cas seem like better friends than Cas and Dean. They seem much easier and looser together, and really seem to enjoy each others company. I actually much prefer the Sam/Cas friendship to the Dean/Cas friendship. But do you recall how far back it was when Jared made that comment? I certainly thought it was true up until this season. I do agree that so far almost everyone seems to be primarily Dean’s friend, which stinks for Sammy!
At the risk of sounding pessimistic… which I often do, maybe Cas and Sam are only connecting now because the PTB feel compelled to separate Cas and Dean because of the continued problems coming about due to a certain overly vocal fan minority. Having Cas connect to Sam is the only way to keep Cas in contact with the Winchesters at this point. Don’t get me wrong, I am happy for any connection between those two characters, but it smack of necessity rather than a genuine interest in a Sam and Cas friendship.
And I can’t help but think about all of the missed opportunities regarding Sam and those other characters, particularly in the Carver years. The only character that Sam has made any kind of contact with since season 8 has been Amelia…. and they didn’t really show us much of that connection. Most of the conversation came from her and very little was revealed about Sam’s state of mind during that time. Since then we’ve seen lost opportunities to have Sam connect with all sorts of characters. Their Grandfather (in a very irritating scene that had them sitting at the very same table together and basically saying nothing to one another), Charlie, Kevin, Frank (all of whom share Sam’s love of all things geek, it would have made sense for any or all of them to connect to Sam, but they only connect to Dean), Chrissy (Sam was the one to help her father, but she connected to Dean), Crowley (he carries SAM’S blood, but he’s connected to Dean) Claire, Garth, Jody (who looked like she might be a friend for Sam, but that has gone nowhere since the Elliott Ness episode), That chick from Trial and Error (she lusted after Dean), Cole (yeah, I guess torture will really put a crimp in a relationship), Dehlilah, Tina, hot Nuns, even villains like Abbadon, Rowena and Cain have only have an interest in Dean and even Gadreel conversed mostly with Dean.
Now I am not saying that Dean shouldn’t connect to these people, but Sam has been excluded for reasons I can’t even begin to fathom.
I agree with all but Kevin. He never showed a preference one way or another, which annoyed me because he had so much more in common with Sam and because Sam was NICER to him. There were at least two times (one was in Trial and Error and I forget when the other one was) when Sam went out of his way to take the phone from Dean and thank Kevin for something. It was such an odd thing to include in a scene that I always thought it was laying the groundwork for a friendship. Dean was also kind of harsh with Kevin, bossing him around and having little sympathy with Kevin’s struggling with his new, crappy lot in life as a prophet. Sam was much more understanding, since he could relate to being forced into a life he never wanted. So by all rights,Kevin and Sam should have had a much closer relationship than Kevin and Dean, but it didn’t seem to be the case.
As far as Sam and Cas, I’m sure you’re right about the reason for the amount of screen time they’ve been spending together, but I’ll take it. I like the dynamic between them, and if it wasn’t for their increased time together, Sam would essentially be talking to nobody besides Dean!
And actually, Sam doesn’t really talk to Dean all that much any more either. He’s asked Dean to talk, offered to listen, committed his support in nearly every episode this season, but Dean would rather talk to random priests, nuns, high school girls, chicks in bars, college students, waitresses, Charlie, Gadreel, Cas, Crowley, Cole, Cain, etc…. (you get my drift) or just about anyone BUT Sam. So lately, Sam hasn’t really talked to anyone. At least there finally seems to be more going on between Cas and Sam, but the bulk of their conversations are one liners about Dean: “Dean’s in trouble” “He’s getting worse.” That’s pretty much it.
Very true, but Sam seems like a veritable chatterbox in those scenes compared to the riveting conversation he’ll be having with Charlie in this week’s episode:
Charlie: “blah, blah, poor me” Sam nods. Charlie: “blah blah wah wah” Sam nods.
got that right! Not looking forward to it at all, but I’ll watch any way. Either I’m an eternal optimist or I’m a glutton for punishment…
[quote]Charlie: “blah, blah, poor me” Sam nods. Charlie: “blah blah wah wah” Sam nods.[/quote]
Hahaha! I have not watched this clip, but if Sam is literally sitting there nodding his head then . . . . I don’t even know 🙂
I would say that you should watch it, but it will depress the crap out of you. I was really bummed after seeing it because it indicates that all of my worst fears about a Charlie episode are going to be realized.
Like w/Sam and Jody, I honestly can’t recall one Sam/Cas conversation that was on a personal level or didn’t have anything to do w/Dean. They seem more like co-workers or partners, IMO. I just don’t see them as friends. I never have, and nothing about this season has changed my opinion on that. I’m happy that their interactions are working for you though.
I believe Jared made these comment back in S7 or S8.
Sadly you’re right. Almost every line of dialogue Sam has had this entire year has related to Dean and the MOC. It’s like he hasn’t had a single thought in his head this year that’s not related to that. But I still think he and Cas seem more comfortable with each other than in any other year. It has seemed like a closer relationship ever since the first Cain episode last season when Cas expressed genuine affection for Sam, although of course he also reminded Sam of what a screw-up he is. Sigh
I don’t think anyone here is saying Sam isn’t intelligent. Or that Charlie is a mega genius, just that she may have more expertise in code breaking, hacking and tech skills than Sam. That in no way makes him dumb! It is established canon that she is extremely highly skilled in these areas, that is why they hooked up with her in the first place. Why would it be so implausible for her to catch that before Sam? He was still attempting to translate the Sumerian text right before she walked in. He was thinking it may have been a different dialect, that’s sounds like a pretty intelligent line of reasoning to me. Plus translating an ancient text is, in and of itself, very impressive.
[quote] just that she may have more expertise in code breaking, [/quote]Leah I do not think anyone is telling about code breaking,It has more to do with the fact that Charlie recognized it as code…that too by one look.
I’m sorry anonymousN I am not sure I get your point. Are you saying because it is in an ancient language, that an experienced and gifted person well-versed in encryption and decryption might not recognize a pattern or anomaly that might suggest a code? If she had instantly knew what it SAID I might agree with you but she didn’t and suggested they figure it out. Together.
[quote]Are you saying because it is in an ancient language, that an experienced and gifted person well-versed in encryption and decryption might not recognize a pattern or anomaly that might suggest a code? [/quote]Sam himself who is the brain of the winchester outfit could not guess that it was in code.The voynich manuscript is gibberish with familiar writing but the first thing anyone thinks is it is code .I do not think you need to be a genius to [i]suggest[/i] that.I would not be in any confusion if Sam suggested it [i]might[/i] be in code and Charlie looked it up and confirmed it.
While Charlie is an expert in encrypsion and decryption algorithms ..Sam himself has an history of interest in such cases.So for Sam to not suggest so is odd.
[quote]experienced[/quote]She is not expert in sumerian and as I have said someone does not need to be gifted or experienced to suggest that it might be in code.[quote]If she had instantly knew what it SAID[/quote]If Sam had instantly known what it said I would have told that the show has jumped shark and for charlie make it two sharks.Instantly knowing what it said is not that she/he is gifted or experienced …she would be a goddess in her own right.
Yeah, but it doesn’t sound like it was her smarts that won the war, it was her super duper Dark Side fighting skills, Yo! Do you really think they would ever write Dean or Sam as single handedly winning that war? Hell, they’d probably both be snoozing back in the poppy fields. There just has to be a better way to showcase Charlies talents without dumbing down the two best Hunters on the planet. If it only happened once every so often, fine, but it’s all the time. I might actually like Charlie more if he could write her more sensibly. Singlehandedly. Please. Could he not have wrote something more like it was DarkCharlies leadership that helped turn the tide… I was hanging in there with her until that line and then it was, no. Just no.
while I was not fond of Charlie even before that episode ..I agree with your comment as a whole.
Again the people of Oz other than the witches seemed fairly peaceful. So Dark Charlie was smarter than they were, more strategic and was able to defeat a fairytale realm with her intelligence and evidently soullessness. She had no regard for her own safety or that of others. So yes I could see how with no inhibitions she could sacrifice others to win her war. I suppose you could interpret the line any way you want. If you dislike Charlie your take would be that she single handedly with no help from any other living creature defeated all of the evil in Oz. Since that doesn’t make any sense I personally will go with my interpretation (the one that sprang to mind immediately while watching the episode). I don’t really care who likes Charlie or who doesn’t. She is a part of the SPN universe and many of us enjoy the episodes that she is in. Both brothers (not just Dean) love and protect her. Respond to me or don’t I really don’t have any thing else to say about it.
The only Oz native we’ve seen was the wicked witch and she was pretty smart considering the runaround she gave everyone.
Without seeing more or the situation they were in I think it is a little bit dangerous to assume the rest were simply dumb. Because we know there was a war in Oz and we don’t know who was fighting who.
To simply say that Charlie and the wizard are smarter than the people of oz sounds a bit imperialistic in some way seeing how Charlie,the Wizard and Dorothy were all treated like they were the messiah when they showed up and it is possible that they weren’t exactly not against using force to keep doing so. As Charlie said when she left Dorothy and the Wizard were ruling the Emerald city – the evil side of the snake oil salesman was in power after Charlie put him there.
And really if you think about it, the way RT writes her, who needs prophets? Just give the (you fill in the blank) tablet to Charlie!
Sorry, not meant to antagonize, just a little humor. 🙂
[quote]And really if you think about it, the way RT writes her, who needs prophets? Just give the (you fill in the blank) tablet to Charlie![/quote]:D:D:D:D
NOW who’s stoking the fire? Sorry, you can’t pretend you’re not stoking just by appending an emoticon. Stoking is stoking, dems da rules.;)
The only fire there is that needs to be stoking is in the fireplace and no one is taking care of it! We need stoking, stat!!!
i’m with you leah. I really enjoyed the promo as well. Where does the word stupid even enter the picture here? From the look of Sam, who to me, looks a bit tired from oh, I don’t know, spending every minute trying to find a cure for his brother perhaps:D, I think he still glows brilliant in being able to translate some old ancient Samarian text in what, the few hours that he was in the cabin with Charlie and dean…who here is smart enough to identify a Samarian text, let alone translate one…? just asking:p hell if you think about it who in that scene was? I didn’t see dean or Charlie translate that text..:p Sam is brilliant both when it comes to research and he’s a damn good hacker as well…not to mention all the other times he’s figured things out….so to say, he’s stupid for not recognizing instantly an ancient text that happens to be encrypted…c’mon.. The fact that Charlie can identify code, well it is canon that she hacked in NORAD at the age of 12. She broke into Frank’s decrypted disk in a day….She’s been paying her mom’s hospital bills from other accounts since she was a kid…Charlie is a genius hacker and a fresh pair of eyes, she wasn’t the one who spent the last few hours translating an ancient text, it was sam..so sam not recognizing ancient code in mere seconds, on what’s most likely been no food and coffee for weeks now.. let’s be honest here, she’s been doing this since she before she hit puberty and it’s all she’s ever done. It doesn’t make her smarter than Sam or Sam stupid, it makes her an expert in her field…and thank Chuck for that, because right now Sam could use a little assist here…not to mention dean Winchester….:)
It’s the one look and suddenly Charlie has deemed it as code, so it is code. No looking at it and asking Sam does he want her to try while he gets some rest, no it is code in a kind of teacher telling a student the direction to take.
The delivery is as important. For a first time viewer just stumbling on that clip, Charlie is in charge, co-ordinating and giving guidance to the tasks the boys are undertaking.
[quote]The fact that Charlie can identify code, well it is canon that she hacked in NORAD at the age of 12. [/quote]Did she know NORAD?I am asking because I do not know if anyone can decode anything wiithout knowu=ing the knowledge.And also it took one look by Charlie …
Thank you Sugarhi15. I completely agree. Her being brilliant in no way takes anything away from Sam’s brilliance. I think they make a good team and compliment each other abilities. I love it when they have allies. Although it usually doesn’t bode well for the allies longevity. The Charlie haters can do a happy dance then. I like her though.
I don’t know, there’s something weird about this promo… maybe it’s the sound or the way the actors are delivering their lines… I can’t quite pin it down. They just sound so fake cheerful… like in an after school special. “Yeah gang, lets see if we can take the cake!” “Let’s get our nerd on!” “Gee whiz, Charlie, I would have NEVER have guessed it was CODE! Aw you’re so super smart!” Maybe it will come across differently in the episode with all the final post production and sound queues in place, but this clip had a decidedly weird, strained quality to it.
The way it is staged kind of suggests that the J’s weren’t there on the same days. It doesn’t help.
Also watching it again – the tattoo picture it is a double headed eagle so that basically gives you half of Eastern Europe for a few hundred years to start with and Dean has one box of files. But then again Charlie has faith in him and as for Sam the delivery about code from Charlie kind of feels like she is patting him on the head like a school teacher would.
I know this is the Charlie hate in me, but am so fed up with the super sparkly one, so personally I kind of hope she is bleeding to death on the cabin floor and hallucinating the whole thing.
HAH! Well, I don’t hate Charlie quite that much, but maybe her incapacitated until the end of the episode would be nice. I did wonder though about that drawing and Dean’s comment about the “douche squad” was that the crest of the Hitler necromancer group from Everyone Hates Hitler? That could be kind of awesome, that was one of the best episodes of the past three seasons. Ah… Ben Edlund you are so sorely and terribly MISSED!
Oh yes Ben Edlund is sorely missed, but I doubt they won’t go with the Nazi’s as it would be ashame as would like to see the Golem again. But I have to say supernatural’s lose is definately Gotham’s gain. It is one of the best shows on TV right now.
As for Charlie, she is too much. Just too much and tries to hard.
The first couple of times she turned up fine she was kind of okay. But after she became a hunter and given a tragic past and saved Oz and paralleled Dean and went off to save Dean and now this, she is too much, way way way too much. And the clip kind of shows her in charge and the boys running around while she co-ordinates.
Actually that would be cool if the reference is to the necromancers. And that would make sense if they’re really going to go the witchcraft route with Sam. Necromancers are kind of like witches, right? They’re seemingly able to be almost immortal, they use spells, they’re evil– I could see them being in possession of the Book of the Damned. Although that brings up the troubling question of how Charlie got the book in the first place. Oh, I forgot, she somehow became a kick-ass fighter while in Oz so she probably took out a whole army of bad guys to obtain the book, while she got off with a mere flesh wound. Oops, sorry, the Charlie-hating beast within me once again rears its head. Henceforth, I shall make no more anti-Charlie remarks (at least not on this thread :))
Nice 1 handed drawing on the eagle pic too! 😉
Women should not hate our own kind. In a show that is ful of testosteron we should rejoice that there is a woman on screen who is not, a. Evil demon, b. Victims, c. Die hard fan. I am ashamed with al these Charlie hate reaction. Sam is smart, yes i agree, but I am glad that there is a woman who is just as smart. Men thinks they are the strongest, smartest creature but lookie here, a woman who is smart enough to be a woman of letters. This is emancipation era girls! Charlie should be our champion in the hunting world that is dominated by men. Female hunters in the show don’t last. Why don’t you all enraged by that fact? Is that suppose to say that girls not strong enough, smart enough, capable enough as a hunter that they have to die? I have 2 champion left. Charlie and Jody, and Donna if she returns but i don’t think she will.
I am just glad that my gender is being represented by a character that is smart and independent. Not a character who is weak, who can only scream at the begining of an episode, who will be a damsel in distres but instead she would pick a gun and shoot the monster. Damn right Charlie. It shows that woman can be smarter than man, that we are the one who save the men once in a while. The writer maybe wants to champion us women, to show that woman too can survive the hunting world because we are smarter and stronger. The feminist in me is so ashamed of these. At least Charlie is not evil. I am proud of my own kind. Thus, i am glad that Charlie is not an evil, manipulative skank. That we as a woman is portrayed as smart, strong, independent and capable. Not a demon, not a witch, not manipulative and not evil.
Huh, i guess i understand why Eve was the one who cause man to fall from Heaven because apparently we just love to condemn ourselves.
My dislike of Charlie has nothing to do with her being female. On the other hand she does not get a free pass simply because she is recurring and the same gender as me on a male dominated show. That is true equality.
My dislike of Charlie is because she is a writer’s wish fulfillment character and him changing the gender from male to female to try and hide it means very little to me. That is what I judge Charlie on, nothing more and nothing less. If Garth or Bobby came in and made everything sparkly I’d say the same thing about them.
To me Supernatural was never a misogynistic show, women and men were both idiots, both genders died in horrible ways and both genders could be heroes and both could be villains, right from the first season when the teenage couple were asked who could handle a shotgun and it was the female who confidently stood up while her boyfriend dithered in the back. To Tamara who hunted and was never seen again but we found out her pain was through the lose of a child and we saw her lose her husband but she still had the strength of will to fight, to Mary who made a bad choice but out of love, to Lisa who was tried to understand and forge a relationship with Dean even though it was doomed. To Jody. to Ellen, to Jo, to Ruby (Mark one and two), to Eve, to Lilith.
These female characters came and went, but all with their own agency and they were flawed and strong in their own ways.
That isn’t to say we haven’t seen awful episodes – the dog sex slave for one.
And renaissance era, harlequin romance novel, nine fingered nuns. (I shudder at the memory!)
I have tried to block her out. Lalalala mad nuns don’t exist!!! :p
I am not even sure I understand what you are saying…. that women fans should all just love Charlie unconditionally simply because she is a female? You do realize that the character is the construct of a MALE writer don’t you? Similarly, Charlie is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. The fact that she is female at all is completely immaterial- she could have been written as a man, a space alien or a dog, so I am not sure how you can use her as a champion of feminist ideals. Blindly loving a character simply by virtue of their gender is just as short sighted as condemning a character simply because of their gender; neither view accepts the person’s character, deeds and morals in their judging. And claiming that those of us who are critical of her character (based off of a critique of how she’s written, how she interacts and her function on the show) need to be ashamed of ourselves for not liking her like you do is going a bit too far IMHO.
And I am not at all convinced that Charlie is the “bad ass” fighter/huntress that you are painting her as being. She’s been in six episodes and has had to be rescued by the Winchesters in every single one, she has ended up crying on the shoulder of either Sam or Dean in three of those episodes, has had to be resurrected once and has been completely incapacitated and had to be carried around by Sam twice now. I’m not sure how that represents the feminist view of the strong woman who can take care of herself when she’s repeatedly left injured and helplessly crying on Sam or Dean’s shoulder in every episode. Charlie was not conceived, nor does she represent the feminist ideal and for me she absolutely does not. As the brain child of a male writer she can’t possibly ever do that IMO. If anything she became the champion of the LGBT community because of her sexual orientation status on the show, although I am not sure that was the intention of the writer either even though Robbie Thompson himself is in fact gay. To me, this is more relevant and carries more weight than her being a model of modern feminism.
Okay, okay. Maybe she can stoke the fire then? Damn it all, the fire needs stoking!!! Wait, Deans just sitting there…
With her bum arm she can’t even do THAT at the moment… Oh, but she’s a real whiz at code.
You’re right! I guess it falls onto Dean then. Maybe after shes done deciphering she can color in her eagle picture. Then they can hang it up on the fridge for that “homey touch”
But she’s so frail and injured at the moment that Sam will probably have to carry her from the sofa to the fridge. Well, at least then he’ll be good for something.
Yeah, he can grab a couple of beers while he’s at it.
I think you missunderstood what I write. I said I am the one who is ashamed. I didn’t say that you’re the one who should be ashamed. Nooooo. I said I am ashamed. It is me who is ashamed and I don’t mean you should too. With that being said why are you upset? If you don’t think you should be ashamed then I am not sure why you are upset. It is my feelings. Am I not allowed to say anything about my feelings when I log in this site and read about all this? If you don’t feel the same way I do then be my guest please carry on. Also the fact that Charlie is a girl remains as fact. She’s not a dog, not a man, not an alien. She’s a girl and that’s a fact. I think that’s pretty material to me. Or perhaps I will just be considered blindly liking someone because of their gender and not their value. I think besides being a girl Charlie has a lot of value. She’s kind, smart, independent, nerdy because I like nerdy, strong because she has been an orphan but still found a way to help funding her mom’s care. She’s a good girl. For once there’s a good girl who can hold her own the world. With all the turbulence in her life, she can come out alive and still be of help for the Winchester, this is the streghth that I love in Charlie. And you said, you said that my opinion is short sighted. Charlie may not as strong as Sam n Dean but if she’s written as male she will probably be stronger in physical strength. So the fact that she’s written as a girl is also material. she has flaws and weakness too. She has done bad things, illegal things, stealing money, killing people even in Oz killing means killing. So, why is she a Mary sue? As a character she is pretty solid. So what if she is so much smarter than Sam in coding? Sam has other great qualities that Charlie can’t do. But for this one Sam is bested by Charlie. Computer language is in code. So, someone who is used to decode a code can recognize it immediately. Yay, you go girl! Show that Winchester what you’re capable of. I’d like to think there are ppl out there who identify themselves as charlie. Who see a part of themselves in Charlie’s personality. I used to identify the nerdy bookish, and geeky part of me in Sam though Sam is a guy but I am happy with the way Sam is portrayed. Now, that there’s Charlie I love her simply because she’s a nerd, a geek, a HP lover, a Hermione lover, gamer, larper, obsessed, and better yet, she’s a girl. You said she can’t be a feminist champion because she’s weak in physical stregth. Well, that’s why it’s called feminist not masculine. To me to be a feminist is to be able to bring forth the best in feminine value. Dark Charlie is strong but she’s just a half of a full person. Do you mean that to be a feminist champion one must be all around strong, not needing anyone to save them, never cry because its a sign of weakness. Is that even the character of a real person? Then I don’t wanna be in your feminist group. Before meeting the brothers Charlie has spent her live on the run and and surviving by herself. She may get help from others but it’s not proven yet that she is dependent on any man. You said since Charlie is written by a man then she cannot be feminists champion because the writer can’t possibly know what it means, that the best she can be is to be a Mary Sue. Are you judging a written character by the gender of the writer? Isn’t that the opposite of what you explain to me by calling me shortsighted?
She is a Mary Sue because she comes and everyone drops everything for her and fix her stuff and she skips off again. while they bask in her glow. And it isn’t jst the boys she has been like that with everyone since she started as Dick Roman loved Charlie to the point he would overly protect her because she was special and he couldn’t replicate her. Compared to the doctors, lawyers and other people in society that the Levi’s copied with years and years of specialist knowledge?
And at the end of every episode she skips off last episode, she almost killed one and killed two. Charlie – no real impact on that front compared to say Alex who has also been through hell and had to kill one pseudo mother to save another. But Charlie seems more disturbed about fighting Dean than killing two people. She tells him to forgive himself, like she kind of has done. Sorry Charlie split in two or not two people are dead and one was killed in cold blood.
Every female Charlie comes into contact with – falls for her. The fairy, Dorothy, the girl at the convention, Dean assumed the same about the girl at the bar when Charlie ditched him, Good Charlie admitted that she would be in the girls pants if she wasn’t good. I have no problem with her being a gay character but as much as every female being a potential bed mate for her it does feel like her gayness is in part to show she is not a potential threat to fans who don’t have a history of responding well to potential love interest. ‘She’s gay, we are continually telling you she is gay, so like her because she isn’t going to sleep with Sam or Dean’. But that also meant from the beginning the writers were trying to shove her into the little sister mode even without the extra smarts. That way they could keep Felicia Day. Well the boys have a younger sibling, he’s in hell. They want that dynamic – get Adam out of the place. Also it says something about how the writer sees the Dean character in particular – he can’t write a female character in the same age range as the boys that is simply a friend. Females are either shoved into family type roles or are sex objects and Charlie shows that – she’s gay and she’s like his little sister.
Any random female passing in Thompson episodes that aren’t demons may not have been on the table for Dean (though he in slash fiction the Levi does say that food and sex are majorly important to Dean.) But that doesn’t mean that means random females in these episodes aren’t still sex objects just not for the boys. They are for Charlie and they fall at her feet.
As for Charlie’s progression she turns up after the Larping episode to announce she is a hunter and she has taken out a ghost, a vampire etc armed and the boys are impressed and don’t warn her off for her own safety? Compare that to Jo, who was raised in a hunting environment, shown to be a competent researcher, good with weapons had an understanding on what she was hunting – Dean told her hunting wasn’t for amateurs on her first hunt before she got a scratch. He deems Garth who has been hunting for a while and has talents in some areas as barely competent. But Charlie simply on her word is now a member of the hunting community and she comes out without a scratch when hunting alone, by herself against things she has only a google search to arm herself with after she got into hunting after meeting a kidnapped fairy who was forced to hurt people. The most trauma that Charlie suffered in that introduction to hunting monsters was being cock blocked.
Things get hunted because they are causing enough damage to allow a pattern to be followed – that means blood has been split but Charlie treats it like a day at the beach. Dorothy turns up and she sees her friends get possessed, dies and is resurrected and she skips off to Oz to have an adventure, even a hardened hunter wouldn’t treat it like that.
She is overly competent, she is treated as overly special, she walks in and everything falls into place within five minutes. She needs a trauma to get people to like her more – kill off mom and dad in a sad way.
As for Sam, yes Charlie can be smarter, but when she is around he doesn’t challenge her on anything. How does he know he has translated that book correctly, he’s tired and has one book. He could have misplaced a vowel and changed the meaning of everything. But Charlie deems it as code and suddenly he agrees. He defers to her research every time she is there. Sure work together but if he is deferring to her everytime then he shouldn’t be researching or letting her out the bunker. He doesn’t trust his own research and it is research that Dean and Sam pin their lives on when they go out and hunt.
I know there is a risk of saying every female character is a Mary Sue but Charlie fits the parameters – but Thompson admits she is basically him and hell she even has a catch phrase. I don’t know about you if one of my girlfriends called everyone they came into contact ‘bitches’ I’d have words because really it grates.
And being female doesn’t mean that I’m going to wave those things.
[quote]I said I am the one who is ashamed. I didn’t say that you’re the one who should be ashamed. Nooooo. I said I am ashamed. It is me who is ashamed and I don’t mean you should too. [/quote]
Why should you be ashamed? Don’t you believe in what you are writing? If you believe in your own point view then there is nothing to be ashamed about. Now, if you disagree with OTHER posters and their views and think we are wrong, then I guess you might feel ashamed, but that would still mean that you find OUR view shameful. And that would go along with this quote [quote]Women should not hate our own kind.[/quote] that we are somehow “hating” on Charlie when we should love her because you do. Well, I don’t and I am NOT ashamed of that at all, so there is no reason for you to be.
IMO, Charlie is not a feminist because she is a cardboard cutout of what a MAN thinks feminism should look like. She is feminism 101, containing all the obvious trappings of the feminist woman, the way a MAN thinks a feminist should be. Then she turns around and needs saving in every single episode. That’s not being self sufficient and that’s not feminism IMO. She’s super duper special, she is smarter than everyone. Every female character on the show she encounters falls in love with her, and so do many of the men, even though that’s not her thing. Whenever she is on screen she dominates the entire storyline; it’s never Charlie helping Sam and Dean (it IS their show after all) It’s the Charlie show with Sam and Dean bumbling around in the background. It was established in her very first episode TGWTDADT that she was far too special to be eaten by Leviathan. Why is that again? Wouldn’t Dick Roman have rather possed her knowledge at his completely disposal by having her eaten tout suite? But no, he decided she was just too special to be eaten for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than bash us over the head with her “specialness” and as a lame way of making her superior with no context. In There’s No Place Like Home, she announces that she’s suddenly been hunting, and has killed all manner of monsters since the last time Sam and Dean saw her. And do they warn her that she’s being foolish (like they warned Jo? the daughter of a hunter and someone who grew up in the life? Or Cole?) No, they instantly accept her as the seasoned hunter that she absolutely is NOT and let her run the research into their next monster; because she knows more than either of them do. And for zero reason and without explanation Charlie is suddenly a dead eye? She can shoot the center out of a target because she’s played video games? The implausibility of that boggles the mind. It’s just another example of how the character is overly and unrealistically romanticized beyond all semblance of any sort of realism. This isn’t feminism, this is fantasy…a male fantasy.
She may be a female character but she is still the contruct of a MAN who can not even begin know what it means to be a woman, who can never know what REAL women face on a daily basis, or has ever been discriminated against in the way that ALL women are discriminated against in this world on a daily basis.
[quote]Then I don’t wanna be in your feminist group.[/quote]
Fine, then don’t. My feminist group contains actual human beings like Gertrude Stein, Rosa Parks, Edith Windsor, Betty Friedan… real women fighting a real fight. Not a cardboard cutout fictional character who carries the obvious and cliched trappings of feminism without any of the actual substance of feminism. If you want to champion feminism on Supernatural then why don’t you fight to get more female writers who can then create great female characters from a FEMALE perspective that’s relevant. How about more female producers so that more women can wield financial and artistic power on the show? That is real feminism.
So it isn’t just me that finds Charlie insulting on the whole feminist slant?
The way Charlie is written falls into almost every single trap of male fantasy and social justice warrior trope after LARP and the real girl so the character took a real nose dive for me.
In slumber party she mentions the company she worked she wikileaked for outsourcing to child labour – we don’t know if she actually fact checked if they knew they were outsourcing to child labour or what was the outcome of it. For all we know the company didn’t know and when they did their diligence the company they outsourced to was complying with all the laws of the country in question and that changed or the company in question outsourced. Or they only just found out and were doing something about it when Charlie essentially shut them down, leaving those kids in a worse state than they were when working not to mention the people now out of work that Charlie worked with because there is no mention that she went to the authorities or the company before the wikileaking them. The manner she did it counts.
The game she released for free after reprogramming – well someone dedicated probably years of work to it and then got nothing in return for it because of Charlie’s flaming liberal politics.
She drops the names Lovelace and Turing like it is a badge of geek honour she knows who they are – Ada King during her lifetime had to live down Byron as her dad, was ill a lot of the time and dealt in maths to stave off what she saw was her family’s madness and was before she had to deal with being a woman in a victorian world. Turing, well, we know what happened to Turing.
The daft thing is that Felicia Day was a victim of gamer gate. She deserves better writing as she isn’t a bad actress and we deserve better than that from a character both male and female.
Yes, I find her a device character. She’s there to pander to ideas and ideals without really being meaningful to those ideas. She hasn’t changed the landscape of Supernatural at all; there are still just as few female hunters, there are still just as many female victims, Sam and Dean still do what they do. She’s no role model IMO. She provides lip service, drops names, displays incredible skills (like being a crack shot, which still hasn’t been explained in any realistic way at all) and then has to be rescued like the damsel in distress that she ends up being in almost every episode. Besides, Supernatural is what it is; I’ve never bought into the whole minsogynst thing either. The creator was male, he wrote from his own male perspective and that’s the show we have. There have been any number of competent, strong assertive female characters on this show and the fact that they are dead does not diminish them; as a matter of fact this show treats men and women EXACTLY the same IMO. Nobody is safe here, men, women, children, angels, demons, monsters they are all fodder for the Supernatural and they are all subject to the same treatment and in the same danger. THAT is true equality IMO. I don’t loathe Charlie; I find her irritating, and increasingly so over the course of her time on Supernatural as she grows more and more unrealistically absurd with each episode. Her best episode was her first when she was totally ignorant of hunting and was largely out her depth with it and needed the guidance of Sam and Dean. She was a real person to me then, but it’s gone down hill from there. Still though, I like Felicia Day. She has largely built her career through being clever and creating her own opportunities. That’s true feminism if you ask me, and I admire her for that. But she’s not the best actress I’ve ever seen and largely only plays this one type of character; plucky, nerdy, brave a tad awkward etc… or herself in other words. I agree with you; she deserves better less obvious and overloaded writing. At the rate he’s going Robbie Thompson will soon have Charlie reveal that she’s got secret supernatural powers or that she can fly or something the way she’s currently being built up.
If you want to be impressed by a young, cutting edge feminist look up (if you don’t already know her, although you probably do) Malala Yousafzai, still only 21 years old and literally taking her life in her hands to advocate for women’s education…. she is truly impressive and what the real face of feminism looks like. I wish I had courage like her.
OOPS! She’s actually only 18; born in 1997! Still a teenager. Wow.
Have heard of Malala. The fact she has been standing up for herself since before the Taliban took over the Swat valley is really impressive. I remember reading that she was blogging about her trying to get to school at the age of about 10 or 11.
She’s smart and articulate in her interviews and got more guts in her little finger than most people can imagine, including me. Her dad seems like a really cool person too. And all they want is to go to school in peace. Not much to ask and she took what they threw at her and the assassination attempt and is still fighting.
As for Charlie, what Felicia Day has done for herself is impressive. I actually like The Guild. But Charlie seems to take the nerd queen to extremes.
I went to a talk once about ‘how nerds had won’ explaining how it was acceptable for nerd culture to be prevalent in all forms of media. But one of the speakers wasn’t sure that it was, as ‘nerds’ on screen always seemed exaggerated which kind of implies that nerds hadn’t won, we’d just become a useful running gag.
We could be nerds but we couldn’t really be truly thought out characters in most mainstream shows. That is at best what Charlie is – a running gag and super nerd queen.
But agree, that Charlie is eventually going to become queen of the superpowered.
Queen of the super powered… Chuck Norris pees himself in fear when ever Charlies name is mentioned!!! Sorry, that one I couldn’t resist… 😉
Malala Yousafzai is truly an amazing and inspiring human being. 🙂
Sorry double posting
(Edited by Alice. It’s disrespectful to the poster. Everyone is entitled to their opinions).
[quote] I am ashamed with al these Charlie hate reaction.[/quote]
[quote]Women should not hate our own kind[/quote]
I would be ashamed if my feelings for any person, fictional or otherwise, were determined by their gender. I don’t vote for, befriend, or support anyone in any way solely based on gender, and I most certainly do not hate my own kind. What an absurd and offensive statement. If you feel the need to support women solely based on gender, bully for you. I prefer to judge people on their merits. Furthermore, as E said, Charlie is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. Again, if you absolutely love any woman character who meets your criteria for being worthy, knock yourself out. I have loved many of the terrific female characters on SPN, but I don’t watch the show every week hoping they’ll introduce some new women hunters. If they do, and if I actually like those characters, then great. But that’s not why I watch the show. I watch the show for Sam and Dean, pure and simple. I find Charlie annoying, just like I find some smart women in the real world annoying. Not being as enlightened as you, I guess I just don’t have it in me to like every female character just because she’s smart and strong. And what particularly annoys me is the dynamic she brings to the show regarding the brothers, Sam in particular, but I’m not going to rehash that. I guess in your opinion that makes me some kind of gender traitor. That reflects poorly on you, not on me.
Alright samandean, you can stoke the fire then… Deans too busy being a douche! 🙂
You really really want that fireplace don’t you 🙂
You said you find smart woman in real life is annoying thus you also find fictional smart woman character also annoying. The dislike is translated. I guess I understand where the dislike and ill words about Charlie comes from. If it’s personal to you then I don’t have a say because people are entittled to their own personal reason to like, dislike, fall in love, hate someone. No need explanation on that. I get it. Really. Just like I get it when you call my comment obnoxious. It’s okay, I understand where that comes from.
[quote]You said you find smart woman in real life is annoying[/quote]No samandean10 did not.But it looks like you have made up your mind about him/her.So you had omit a word which changed the sentence profoundly so that you say why she dislikes Charlie.No, you don’t understand anything all you have are assumptions and sentences with words omitted from others comments.
Thanks anonymous. I was writing my response at the same time as you. I did go back and reread my initial comment to make sure that I had included the word “some” because it does make a huge difference, as you correctly point out.
Please read my comment carefully before criticizing it. I said:
[quote]I find Charlie annoying, just like I find some smart women in the real world annoying.[/quote]
My point is that I don’t feel obligated to like every woman, or female character, who is smart just because they make the whole gender look good. Being a woman is not a team sport for me. I place much more importance on character, decency, kindness, etc. And sometimes, even if a person has all of those great qualities, I find them annoying for other reasons and choose to minimize the time I spend in their company. You’re a better person than I if you don’t find some people annoying. There are myriad ways in which Charlie annoys me, and since she’s not real I feel that it should offend nobody (except maybe Robbie T who created her) if I express my annoyance. Please note that I’m not expressing anything negative about Felicia Day, because I don’t know her. To the extent that I’ve read about her she seems like a nice, smart person. So I don’t “hate my own kind.” I love smart women, in fact it’s one reason I love this site. The reviews and comments are so creative and well-written, and display how knowledgeable and intelligent the writers are. I honestly don’t understand why it bothers anyone that I don’t like Charlie. As I’ve said in another post, I really like Metatron, but it doesn’t offend me in the least that many viewers don’t. I’ve gotten a good laugh at some of the comments trashing Metatron. So I found it mystifying and offensive to be accused of shamefully hating my own kind, and being an example of why Eve caused the fall. Really? You got all of that from the fact that not all female viewers like Charlie? And you don’t understand why I might find that characterization of me obnoxious?
Hi samandean10. I think the bulk of your comment is well said. I am not sure why Kaj got so offended. I know why you did! But I would like to make a small observation in response to why people might be touchy about the manner in which someone chooses to express their dislike of a character. Take Sam for example. Does it bother you when some fans harshly criticize him? Would it bother you if someone cheered for him to get broken bones or hope he is found bleeding out on the floor? I know it would bother me. As it would if someone said that about Dean. Or Charlie. They are fictional characters but we form attachments to some characters and dislike some others. I personally have NO issue at all with someone disliking any character. I have a few I find extremely annoying myself. I guess I am always surprised at the vehement way that hate is expressed toward certain characters. But, as usual, we have all digressed so I guess I will bow out before we get in trouble.
I take your point Leah, but to me there is a distinction between Sam and Dean, and everyone else on the show, because Sam and Dean ARE the show. I know that every other character on the show has fans and detractors. There are Cas haters, Metatron haters, Crowley haters, even Bobby haters- well, dislikers, because how could you hate Bobby? I disagree with those fans, but I shrug and move on because in my mind, they’re secondary characters. As far as Sam and Dean, I find it inexplicable that someone could hate one of them yet still like the show, because those fans must be irritated almost the entire time they’re watching an episode, since both brothers are in almost every episode. So while those fans are entitled to their opinion, I would just avoid any commentary by them because I just fundamentally disagree with their whole view of the show. I agree that the death wishes for Charlie can be a bit over the top, and I plead guilty to that. I know it seems a little twisted, but I’m mostly joking, and I guess I find the joking by other Charlie haters to be funny. This is, after all, SPN where characters are killed in horrifying ways on almost every episode, some of it intentionally humorous. In fact, almost all of Mystery Spot was played for laughs. The writers loved coming up with different ways to kill Dean. So it doesn’t seem quite as out of line to suggest different death scenarios for Charlie, as it would to root for a horrific death for a character on some run-of-the-mill drama. However, I will try to moderate how I express my antipathy to Charlie in my comments. I don’t want to be the person whose comments are avoided by others. So while I would rejoice at never seeing Charlie again, it’s OK if she returns to OZ for good, or is killed off very gently- say, by a sudden heart attack.:) I swear Leah, that is my absolute last joke about Charlie’s death.
Also, Leah, I’m curious about which characters you find extremely annoying? You are so diplomatic in your comments, at least since I’ve been coming to this site, that I can’t recall you singling anyone out as annoying. So if you don’t mind sharing, I’d love to hear who annoys you.
“killed off very gently” LOL. That’s ok samandean10, please don’t think I would tell anyone what they can or can’t say about a character. I am almost sure she will be killed off. Not gently. I was just saying that we all have characters we love. Characters we dislike. That’s fine. I like Charlie and see her character very differently than many here. Occasionally I just need to pipe up with my take. Maybe I just like Felicia, she reminds me of Charlie in some ways and I know she has been attacked and bullied online and had her life threatened. This is non-show related as far as I know. Sometimes the atmosphere online can be very scary.
I know you’d never tell anyone what they can and can’t say. Instead you very calmly and reasonably explained why my Charlie comments might bother some people, and you did it without attacking me personally. For that reason, and because I respect your opinion, I will try to avoid the type of Charlie comments that offend people. I still will critique her actions/portrayal in her episodes, but I will try to be more measured and less vehement about my dislike for the character. I’m nothing if not reasonable!
I also want to add that I do see a distinction between trashing a character and trashing a real person. I feel terrible for all of these actors who see/hear of truly ugly things written about themselves online. I agree that the online world is very scary. I’m not sure why Felicia would get death threats. I guess I don’t know much about her other than that she’s an amazing gamer.
That’s very nice of you to say! But I have my moments 😉 I would much rather exchange ideas than argue usually. I am fine with people who don’t agree with me. I respect you as well, even if we find ourselves on different pages at times. I have enjoyed reading your posts and find you very reasonable. Please post what you feel samandean10.
🙂 I find Metatron annoying as well as Rowena. I just like my villains more evil and less whiney and prone to monologues. Not that those two can’t be entertaining at times. I have few characters I really hate or things about the show that make me very angry. I’m kind of boring like that.
Loathe Rowena, (yes really, you didn’t know that?!:D)… She’s far too campy and cartoonish for my tastes. But I’ve always had a soft spot for Metatron!
If they had Ruth Connell dial back the pantomime villain, Rowena would be actually interesting.
maybe….the way she is now, she’s far too silly to every be threatening.
Oops, I accidentally posted twice.
Your comment was pretty interesting to read, since I’m not a feminist (I am a woman) and completely disagree. I don’t think that we should be a fan of Charlie because she’s a woman. I am a fan of certain characters because they are good characters, regardless of their gender. In my experience, women tend to do this much more quickly than men. To form a group purely because they’re the same gender. I generally don’t like it when people are determined to victimize themselves. But then again, I don’t get butthurt very easily and call everything sexist.
I don’t want to see a woman on screen because she’s a woman, I want to see a character on screen because it’s a good character. What I mean to say here is: you seem to identify with Charlie and with certain other characters based on the fact that they’re women. But I personally identify with characters for different reasons.
You say that we should not hate Charlie because she’s a woman. So you’re saying that just the fact that she’s a woman means that she should not be critiqued. While men on the show can be critiqued. How is that fair or equal. I don’t think gender should be a reason not to critique a character, the role and quality of the character should decide what kind of criticism it gets.
I do like Charlie though. She can be pretty funny and I like that she’s a Harry Potter fan. 🙂 And she’s just a good friend. That’s what I find important.
[i] “The douche clan.” [/i] Why does Dean always have to say stuff like that? I think they are turning him into a bit of a caricature of himself.
That’s how Dean has always talked. Irreverent, cocky, smartmouth. Thats one of the reasons I love his character. 🙂
Saying everything is just douchey is not smart in any way in my book. Dean used to offer better commentary.
Aw give the poor guy a break, will ya! He’s fighting the urge to slaughter everything in sight, now there’s a cool new book that is calling out to him to do bad, bad things and DemonDean keeps trying to re-emerge!!! The dudes got enough on his plate already without having to come up with more clever commentary! I’m surprised he can walk and chew gum at the same time right now.
Speaking of chewing gum. There is a scene in the episode where Maggie is a ghost but unaware of it. I can’t think of the title right offhand. Roadkill? Anyway, in the scene where Old McDonald (can’t remember his name either) breaks thru the window and kidnaps her, after Dean runs out then Sam follows and when he yells “Dean!” I swear you can see the gum in his mouth that Jared is chewing. Check it out if you get a chance. I also wondered if Jensen had a piece of gum in his mouth in his confession scene to Sam right before Sam/Gadreel punches him in that storeroom. You don’t see anything but it looks like he did a quick chew if that makes sense. Not like his usual facial movements. Probably not on this one but definitely on Jareds.
And they may be professional writers but most of them ares still 12 year old boys at heart. They love fart jokes and boobie humor etc. Supposedly the TV Standards and Practices (the entity that deems what you can and can’t say on prime time network TV in case you didn’t know) released several words like bitch and pissed off and douche (unfortunately) that can now be said on TV. Well supposedly all the boys (even Jensen) were thrilled by that; they thought it was hysterical. Luckily Sam almost never says it. Not sure why, Jared is certainly not opposed to “the big boy words” (his own quote) but I guess they decided it was more a Dean thing to say. It’s a bit annoying really. TPTB really do seem to forget sometimes that the main bulk of their viewers are women.
I’d rather hear those than all those lame “dick” jokes from Season 7. I read something somewhere where even the guys were sick of them. 🙂
What I find annoying and an unlikable trait of Dean is how many times in this entire show he has said the word poop! I know, I am not big on the potty humor.
Me either. I remember folks complaining about that from the early years as well, so unfortunately it’s nothing new. It’s just grown to include the word ‘douche’ lately. 🙁
Yeah… his ‘douche’ comments along with this eating and trolling for chicks. Sometimes I forget that Dean’s character has suffered under these writers as well; they’ve taken some of his characteristics, mouthy/irreverent, lusty appetite, ladies man… and made them kind of hallmarks of his character that the writers trot out periodically and use without context. “Oh look, it’s Dean being X, isn’t that funny?” It makes Dean look insensitive, piggish and creepy at times. He’s been reduced somewhat to these basic ideas and they are often used for a laugh. I can’t name the number of times this season that various fans have tried to make Dean’s appetite and his hitting on girls in various episodes things that have been enhanced in him due to the Mark, because they seemed so glaringly crude in their usage. It’s too bad that all those scenes had nothing to do with the Mark, as that might have been interesting and furthered the plot. They were only inserted as cheap humor, making Dean look like a caricature instead of a character. Still though, Dean gets all the plot, all the POV, all the insight, all the action and the interaction with other characters, so a little diminishment of his character doesn’t look all that bad considering what they’ve done to Sam.
Yeah, the eating thing worked before, it fit his character like when he would enjoy a burger, devour it. And actually managed to look good while stuffing his face. 😀 Now it’s more like gross out humor. Or it makes Dean look way too childish instead of showing him as a guy who is all in, a guy who likes to take pleasure in the simple things life has to offer like food, music, sex. And annoying his little brother from time to time. ;D
I agree that the leering thing is also different now. Back in the day, it was more like Dean liked hitting on girls and the girls liked him hitting on them. Now it’s done just as a “Dean is such a horndog!” joke. It makes him look kinda bad, not inappropriate in a fun way.
OT
Hi lala2!
I saw [i] The Executioner’s Song [/i] recently, I thought it was GREAT and wanted to talk to you about it but there wasn’t really an appropriate place for that. 😀 But I gather you didn’t feel strongly about the episode one way or another. XD
Great to see you posting again!
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Another sneak peek for 10.18 [i] Book of the Damned[/i]:
ETonline ([url]”http://www.etonline.com/tv/162694_exclusive_supernatural_sneak_peek_charlie_reveals_she_always_wanted_to_marry_scarlett_johansson/”[/url])
No. Just no. Charlie is whining to Sam about the life? What. She’s been in it for all of a New York Minute compared to Sams entire life and future?!? With everything Charlie knows that Sam and Dean have lost! RT is doing his level best to make me really hate this character. This is a prime example of why. I hope Sam reads her the riot act. I apologize to all you Charlie enthusiasts out there but this clip was gag inducing.
Sadly, I agree. Plus, Charlie gets to talk and Sam gets to be totally silent. This isn’t doing it for me.
Every.Single.Thing. about that clip irritated me. So now she’s officially a hunter?!!!! Her two minutes as a hunter have her as world weary as though she’s been at it her whole life? Sam sits there nodding as though he’s lost all capacity for speech? Instead of movement on the MOC or the beginning of Sam’s (seemingly mythical) arc we get to hear Charlie’s ruminations on the difficulties of the hunter’s life? Give me a freaking break. All of my solemn vows to refrain from extreme Charlie bashing are being put to the test. Help Leah! Talk me down!
LOL, go ahead knock yourself out samandean! I will avert my eyes. Which I do a lot anyway! Try and dismember her gently 😀
[quote]Try and dismember her gently[/quote]
Good one! While I’m now feeling even more pessimistic about this episode, I shall withhold my judgement until Wednesday at 10 PM. How very mature of me, huh?
Godspeed.
:):)
Ugh and yuck. It seems that that PTB’s solution to complaints that Sam isn’t connecting with other characters is to have him sit silently while THEY talk. I couldn’t give a rat’s ass what Charlie thinks about hunting. If he hates it so much, what the hell is she doing? O.M.G. I am so not looking forward to this episode at all now. RT, you are approaching Adam Glass levels of self insertion douchiness.
I’m actually getting depressed about this episode and the prospect of yet another Charlie ep but I busted out laughing when I read this:
[quote] I couldn’t give a rat’s ass what Charlie thinks about hunting.[/quote]
Thanks for letting me end my day with a laugh!
Yeah we we all laugh (hysterically) until we cry… 😉
By having Charlie appear in 4 of the last 10 episodes it almost feels like they’re grooming her to be a series regular, especially since she’s becoming more involved in the myth arc. I might actually cry if that ends up being the case, or if she plays some major role in the climax of this season. I hope this isn’t in response to those clamoring for more roles for women on SPN. And just a side note, is there anyone at all who finds her signature “bitches” references funny? Is that a thing, to call men bitches, or is that something Robbie T. invented because he thinks it’s so darn tootin adorable? Every time she says it, I die a little inside. And when she said “smell you later bitches” I almost hurled.
That did occur to me. I could see a place for Charlie, but only if Super!Charlie goes away.
I don’t know percysowner. Even if she weren’t Super Charlie, her increased screen time would definitely come at Sam’s expense. Just look at the most recent clip: we’re getting a detailed (and nauseating) look into Charlie’s head space while Sam nods like a bobble head doll. That one monologue by Charlie gives us more insight into her thoughts than we’ve into Sam’s thoughts in YEARS. And because of what Felicia refers to as her “strong bond” with Dean, while conspicuously leaving out any mention of Sam, there’s no doubt we’d be getting lots of Dean/Charlie bonding while Sam sits in the corner nodding to himself, his vocal cords having rusted due to lack of use. No, even if I could stand Charlie, I wouldn’t want more of her on the show because more Charlie equals less Sam. Though at this point, how much less Sam could we get?
I’m not sure Sam can get much less screen time and still be on the show.
[quote]I don’t know percysowner. Even if she weren’t Super Charlie, her increased screen time would definitely come at Sam’s expense. Just look at the most recent clip: we’re getting a detailed (and nauseating) look into Charlie’s head space while Sam nods like a bobble head doll. That one monologue by Charlie gives us more insight into her thoughts than we’ve into Sam’s thoughts in YEARS.[/quote]Isnt that the tragedy .I think in seacon she said Sam and her will have more interactions..she should have have said more monologuing on her point.Even if Jared had dialogues i would not be surprised to see it on the floor of the editing room.
Why not relieve Jared to be with his family or have his cut out there so that everyone else other than Sam can talk about how hunting has affrected their life and let Charlie have conversations with Dean where they talk about their problems.
What I find so incredibly frustrating is that the writers can provide POV for every other character and guest star on the show EXCEPT SAM. We know how Charlie feels about everything that’s happened to her this year, we got insight into Dean, Cas, Clair, the flirty nun, Cain, Crowley, Rowena, the wife and college girl in Halt and Catch Fire, Jody and Sheriff Hanscom, and on and on and on. The only POV from Sam the entire year has been “must save Dean.” It is mind-boggling to me that TPTB can devote so little effort into providing Sam POV when he is one of the two stars.
A couple times, fine. The way shes using it now is becoming annoyingly uncute.
Weird clip . Charlie has not been in hunting long enough to get bitter over it and Sam ? just odd.
Does anyone think they may be planning to do a SPN spin-of with Charlie? Fingers crossed that’s what they are planning.
Yeah… I’d be behind that; get her off this show and put her in her own which I could then happily ignore. Sounds GREAT to me.
That’s not a bad idea, although I think we would have heard about it by now. Maybe at the CW upfronts they will announce they are developing a Charlie spinoff.
A girl can hope. Just seems odd that they are having her on so many episodes near the end. That’s what made me wonder. We’d get rid of her and her writer at the same time. Double win.
YES YES YES! Please let that be what they’re doing!
Hi E, you got me on the Bobby thing. I forgot about that. Another line I hate but it’s there!
Leah, I don’t know. If I remember correctly Dean was in a pretty bad spot mind vise when that phrase was said and sometimes something is said to make people fight better or push them to keep on walking. A white lie that is not exactly truth but is needed on that moment. Of course if heard literally without context it would be different… but I like my mindset on that. 😉
– Lilah
I have to concede this one Lilah, Bobby was being influenced by a supernatural force to be truthful. 🙂 Which I never felt was backed up by Bobby’s actions. He was equally cranky and loving to both.
Ah, forgot that… but agreed. Both are Bobby’s boys and aye, he was equally cranky for both of them. 😀
-Lilah
I have to agree to disagree. Bobby is all telling Sam to not go behind Dean’s back, even though Dean has already been turned into a demon once by the MOC AND is a physical danger to Sam, but he was more than happy to trap Sam in panic room behind his back, and was more than willing to keep Dean going to get Sam’s soul back and cram it into his body knowing it would drive Sam insane or kill him “behind Sam’s back”. Now Soulless Sam was rescuing Sam’s soul, so I do understand that. Sam may have been addicted to demon blood, but AT THE TIME Sam had done nothing wrong with his powers. He had saved people from possession and a town from being destroyed and saved people’s lives. Basically, I do think Bobby’s action show a preference for Dean, and like so many other characters Bobby is more than willing to excuse in Dean what he condemns in Sam. Even when he condemns Dean for selling his soul, he does it by asking how Dean could do this to HIMSELF. There is no such concern for Sam on demon blood.
[quote]Basically, I do think Bobby’s action show a preference for Dean, and like so many other characters Bobby is more than willing to excuse in Dean what he condemns in Sam. Even when he condemns Dean for selling his soul, he does it by asking how Dean could do this to HIMSELF. There is no such concern for Sam on demon blood.[/quote]Perfectly put.
Agree to disagree then. I have commented ad nauseam about that note. I saw it as loving and supportive of Sam. The fans IMO somehow managed to turn it into an indictment of Sam. The things done in the past I think was Bobby (and Dean) trying to do what he thought was right. That can be debated forever but I don’t believe Bobby ever intentionally did ANYTHING hurtful to Sam because he “likes Dean more”.
But wasn’t it Bobby that wanted to stop torturing Sam in the panic room? Didn’t he say more than once that he thought they were killing him? And both Dean and Bobby talked to SS about retrieving Sam’s soul. Bobby also raised concerns about the price for asking Death for this favor. Apparently Bobby had no clue Dean had done that. Bobby was furious with Dean for giving up on Sam after he escaped from the panic room. He wanted Dean to bring Sam back not drive him away. And after he was possessed by the demon Bobby told Sam he would never cut him loose and that was when Dean pretty much already had. Bobby’s dying memories were of both of his boys not just Dean. And yes one of his memories was of teaching Dean how to play catch but Dean looked pretty young so I would imagine Sam was about 3 or 4 at the time. Probably difficult to watch a toddler and teach a 6 or 7 year old how to catch a baseball. I felt that Bobby’s note to Sam meant the brothers are better off not lying to each other because as we all know that never ends well. It was a moment that seemed to mean a lot to Sam. It did to me too.
I agree completely Cheryl.
Well said Cheryl.
– Lilah