CW Official Press Release for Supernatural 10.19
Here’s the Press Release for the April 22 episode.
SUPERNATURAL
“The Werther Project” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) CAN DEAN SAVE SAM? —Sam (Jared Padalecki) learns that former Men of Letters, Magnus, once built a magical box and Sam sets out to find it in the hopes it can cure Dean (Jensen Ackles) of the Mark of Cain. However, what he’s not prepared for is the deadly alarm system Magnus set up on the box. When Sam opens the box, he puts both his and Dean’s life in danger. Stefan Pleszczynski directed this episode written by Robert Berens (#1019). Original airdate 4/22/2015.
Well Sam continues to try to cure Dean. Sadly he gets caught in a trap and Dean has to rescue him. I guess he takes Bobby’s advice to keep Dean in the loop, because it puts Dean’s life in danger. What do you think of this description? Are you happy to see Sam continuing to fight for Dean? What do you think about Sam putting himself and Dean in danger? Are you glad Sam goes back to Magnus’s house. Let us know in the comments.
Color me intrigued! Do you think Sam gets sucked into the box (trapped into an alternate dimension)? Or does it trap him in the location where the box is? Or would he be literally trapped in a box? I’m genuinely curious about this episode now… can’t wait!
I’m glad to see that Sam is continuing on his “dark path” no matter what. I want the Sam of days gone by, the Sam with backbone and smarts. It doesn’t bother me that he gets into trouble in the next episode, I’m a big fan of Sammy in peril and Dean really needs a dose of Big Brother Dean, something we haven’t seen much of at all this season. I think though that this will firm Dean’s resolve that Sam should quit looking, but I’ll bet it won’t. VERY encouraged that this ep is by Robert Berens. That alone makes it worth watching.
Once the whole witchcraft issue was raised as a possible solution to the MOC, I predicted that maybe the brothers would return to Magnus’s house, since he knew some pretty powerful spells. I’m really curious to see how it pans out. It almost seems like, as each possible cure falls through, Sam will get closer to the last resort- seeking help from Lucifer.
Why would Satan help? Think about it. It’s not like they are just going to release him from the cage. It’s not like they can relocate him to a nicer cage location… Maybe one with windows and a nice view… Maybe Dish satellite… Lucifer might agree if he can take Sam as his vessel but why would Sam agree to that? I mean don’t get me wrong, I get that Sam would make the sacrifice but why would he unleash Satan on the world again. I just can’t figure out what they could offer Lucifer that would keep the world safe at the same time… Why would Lucifer deal? Any ideas?!?
Sam kills Crowley, releases Satan and he’s back on his throne? Nah…
Lucifer could be tempted by Sam agreeing to be his vessel once again. Sam is the true vessel and Lucifer is far more powerful with Sam than without him. it might be enough to get Lucy to remove the mark.
I admit, if Sam offers to be Lucifer’s vessel again and helps let him out, I would be out of the show. That level of not caring about the world would fully destroy Sam as a character. Being Lucifer’s vessel means the demon half of the Apocalypse starts all over again with no counterbalance of Michael trying to fight and leaving half of the world alive. Now, if Sam offers to return to the Cage so Lucifer can have his chew toy again, I could buy that. I’d hate it, but I would find that an offer that Lucifer would accept and one that doesn’t trash Sam’s character totally.
When I said Sam will seek Lucifer’s help I certainly didn’t envision him volunteering to be a vessel because that would be such a bad idea on so many levels that TPTB would never go there (hopefully). It would destroy Sam as a character and as an intelligent, decent human being. I was more thinking about him communicating with Lucifer in some way–hopefully not by slaughtering a boatload of nuns– and then making some kind of deal. I don’t know WHAT kind of deal exactly, but presumably one that wouldn’t unleash hell on earth, and which Sam believed would only hurt him. Hey, if the writers can figure out a credible way of working Bobby into the plot without actually returning him to earth, maybe they can do the same thing with Lucifer
I never said let lucy out I only said sam could offer himself up as a vessel again.
I know, it’s just that the only reason Lucy needs a vessel is if he’s on earth. Sam could offer to return to the cage to “entertain” Lucifer, but offering to be a vessel doesn’t make sense to me unless Lucy is out. I suppose he could say he’ll say yes if Lucy ever gets out, but other than that, I don’t see offering to be Lucy’s vessel as being useful as long as Lucy is in the Cage. Now if Sam does make that stupid, stupid promise and DEAN lets Lucy out, I could live with that.
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I am really looking forward to this episode. Love the episode description, it sounds very intriguing. Got to admit the ‘Can Dean save Sam?’ bit got me a bit giddy as I utterly love me some Sam in peril and it usually delivers some Protective Big Brother!Dean which always makes me happy. Also, very happy to see Sam still focussed on helping Dean, I’m chuffed that Sam’s storyline is kicking into gear.
samandean10 this is totally what I buy into too. Sam taking on Lucifer as his vessel would destroy Sam and the world. But talking to Lucifer and maybe making some sort of deal seems to be the Winchester way. What goes around, comes around. Dean’s made deals, now is it Sam’s turn to make one for Dean? I wasn’t sure at first they would bring back Mark Pelligrino, as I didn’t want Sam to suffer more at the hands of Lucifer again, and that freaked me out big time! The hell that Sam went through with his breakdown and torture. I couldn’t live through that again at any price. Dean’s safety from the mark will come, but am I wanting them to think of some original way to impress me, not go back to the past. Its pure genius that they are going back to Magnus’s house as its where we first saw Dean in contact with the blade, and Sam’s voice get him out of that trance like state. So for Magnus to be this clever in plotting protection for the box is really exciting me. Robert Berens usually writes some brilliant episodes I can’t wait for this to pan out!!
If they could figure out some way to bring Pelligrino back for an episode or two, without actually bringing Lucifer back to earth, I would be ecstatic. He was so fantastic. Just because I can’t think of a deal Sam could make that falls short of him being possessed by Lucifer doesn’t mean the writers can’t. Hey they’re being paid to do this! Maybe, as percysowner suggested, Sam will agree to return to the cage, but how would they get him out this time?
Isn’t Jensen following Mark Pellegrino on Twitter now? Jensen doesn’t follow many people so that could mean something.
If they bring Lucifer back in some form, they might be calling back on the prediction “Lucifer” gave?
[b] 5.04 The End [/b]
[i]Dean: You better kill me now. Or I swear, I will find a way to kill you. And I won’t stop.
Lucifer: I know you won’t. I know you won’t say yes to Michael, either. And I know you won’t kill Sam. Whatever you do, you will always end up here. Whatever choices you make, whatever details you alter, we will always end up—here. I win. So, I win.
Dean: You’re wrong.
Lucifer: See you in five years, Dean. [/i]
What “Lucifer” said seemed to put the onus on Dean. Dean took the mark of Cain knowing that it originated from Lucifer… No one tricked him per se, Dean didn’t want to know what burden comes with the mark.
The timeline doesn’t really work though because there has been two yearlong time jumps after season 5.
By the way, it’s interesting that “Lucifer” said that he knows that Dean won’t kill Sam but now Cain said that Dean will.
Now you have me wondering if Dean, with the MOC and the first blade, could actually kill Lucifer. That would be an interesting story line!
I’m wondering if Dean, possessing the MOC could be used as a vessel for Lucifer. They established that the bloodline was important for vesseling both Lucifer and Michael. Sam was dosed with demon blood to help prepare him to become the vessel for Lucifer. Now Dean, with the same bloodline is partly demonic as well. So maybe He can hold Lucifer. It would be a fun reversal and if Dean is being influenced by the Mark, he could tell Sam that whatever plan ends up releasing Lucifer will cure the Mark and Dean is willing to go along with it. Then Lucifer’s out, has a demonic vessel and Sam has to figure out what to do about the whole mess. This will never happen. I have never, ever predicted a plot turn correctly (other than Dean becoming a demon, because that was pretty telegraphed).
The only problem with that scenario is that who, then, would be able to defeat Lucifer? But what if Sam finds out that someone with the MOC and the first blade could kill Lucifer, and that since Lucifer was the source of the MOC, that would get rid of it (yeah, I know Metatron said that source stuff was crap, but even so). So he lets Lucifer possess him and regains control long enough to allow Dean to kill him? So then Dean is cured, and while Sam would be dead, we know how permanent THAT is. The only thing wrong with any scenario involving Lucifer is that I’ve always assumed (maybe wrongly) that when the show is ending they’re going to bring back Lucifer and Michael and wrap up that whole story permanently.
For me it doesn’t really track that Lucifer would want or benefit from having the mark or a vessel. He made it, he’s already got that kind of power.. why would he now need to have it back? It was a punishment for Cain; I suppose if Lucifer suddenly decided that he needed or wanted the Mark or A Mark, he’d just make another one. I wouldn’t mind seeing Sam take on Lucifer as a vessel and then Dean killing Lucifer, that would be kind of cool. How they’d end up getting Sam back would be interesting. I wonder what would happen if Dean DID kill a possessed Sam? I mean, the Mark wants him to kill his brother, but killing Lucifer might dissolve the power of the mark. Hmmmm interesting. I hope though that Michael stays out of it. No Apocalypse redux please.
I think that you can’t kill the Devil…
[quote] [b] TVLINE | You’ve had instances where the boys were possessed, but now Dean’s fully a demon. What made you decided now was the time to pull the trigger and go down that avenue? [/b]
Dean being a demon here ties into a deeper mythology in the show, that being the Mark of Cain and Cain. That’s really one of the places we started to get the idea. The show has made a point of saying how rooted these brothers are in, frankly, the mythology of the world, and to find another anchor that was literally around at the beginning of time made us feel like… It wasn’t so much the spectacular effect or whatever of Dean being a demon. It’s more just rooting him in something more final, something that will not necessarily totally go away even when/if he’s converted back from demonism. [/quote]
LINK ([url]”http://tvline.com/2014/07/21/supernatural-season-10-spoilers-demon-dean-dark-sam/”[/url]) to Carver’s interview.
I want to know why Dean having the mark of Cain is so important that Dean is rooted in the mythology of the world. I mean, it seems that Lucifer ignored Cain when Lucifer was freed. Cain wasn’t even acting like a Knight of Hell, he was just a beekeeper.
Could the reason be that Lucifer wouldn’t want Sam and Dean to end up like Cain and Abel because Sam is still Lucifer’s true vessel? Or was Abel Lucifer’s first true vessel?
It does seem contradictory that Dean could be both the true vessel of Michael (the “good” brother) and also destined somehow to be like Cain, the bad brother who killed Abel and became the Father of Murder. I find the whole mythology very confusing at this point, and I hope TPTB come up with a logical, credible scenario that is consistent with canon. I’m not going to hold my breath, however.
Exactly! In seasons four and five, Dean was part of the mythology as the righteous man who began it all and was supposed to be the one to finish it. The angels wanted Dean to be the champion of Heaven. But now he is basically a Knight of Hell.
One of the things that the two archangels said they could do – and did do – was fix any of the brothers attempts to die. They both wanted their vessel. It isn’t really in anyone’s interest to try to get Lucifer to help remove the mark, because why should he? Michael on the other hand might consider HIS vessel to be compromised, and be able to remove the curse.
I do think though that the point of Season 5’s angel storyline wasn’t that Lucifer was bad and Michael was good, it was that they both were equally uninterested in the welfare of humanity (which they were supposed to be protecting) and only interested in starting their war. Michael was never the good-guy in that scenario, he just thought/claimed he was. They were equally villainous and their scheme was, along with all the demons and the angels that helped them, to maneuver both Sam and Dean into starting the apocalypse.
While it’s true that neither archangel cared much about humanity, I referenced Lucifer as the “bad” one because he actively hated humans–that’s supposedly why Michael put him in the cage. Had he won the battle with Michael I believe someone in Season 5 said he would unleash hell on earth, and destroy humanity. I don’t think Michael actively hated humans and had any plan to ultimately kill them. Sure he wasn’t too concerned that half the planet would be roasted as a result of his battle with Lucifer, but relative to Lucy he was a “good” angel.
But see I think that is the point. (ok random eilf philosophy coming up here, you can take it with a pinch of salt if you like 😉 ) Relative morality is a dangerous thing. It is an excuse for doing whatever you want because someone else is ‘worse’ than you. There are different types of ‘bad’ in the world and sometimes being cold and calculating has the same results as being a mustache-twirling villain. Michael killed Sam and he threatened and coerced Dean. he prevented Mary from making a decision to protect herself and her family and so she burned on the ceiling and her children were cursed.
If asked he would have made it clear that he was as angry as Lucifer for being overlooked in favor of the weak humans with their free-will. Lucifer (though of course this is only according to himself) was cast down for questioning the status quo, basically demanding the free will that the humans had. Michael didn’t challenge his father’s will but still he was planning the same conclusion – ruling and controling humanity. Would humanity have been in a bad way under Lucifer? Definitely. Would it have been any better under Michael? Perhaps Michael would have decided that the best way to get the humans in line to what ‘the father’ wanted would have been to strip them of their free will, would that be better? Worse? The angels idea of heaven looks like Stepford. The world under the angels would have been post-apocalyptic Stepford.
Michael didn’t ‘hate’ humans but he had no use for them. They were in his way. Lucifer might have destroyed people but Michael would have probably wanted them to worship him first.
Of course this is all speculation but I understood the storyline, at least to the end of season 5 to be about free will, deciding what rules you will and won’t follow, what destiny you make for yourself and your ability to deal with the consequences. And the ability to understand the rights and decisions of other people. ‘Team Free Will’ being more than just a funny label – Castiel gaining independence from God’s rules, Dean from John’s and Sam from Dean’s. And because they all did that they could then commit themselves to helping each other in a real way. The show succeeded in showing that storyline too… It is only since the beginning of Season 8 that the story has become about something else, which is not nearly as fascinating as a storyline, sadly. Also it is at such variance from what the show was about that it is difficult to understand and getting more difficult by the season, we keep trying to reshape it into old SPN rules and nowadays the writers want …. whatever they want on a given week …
OK I’ll chalk it up to me being really tired tonight if I am forgetting something from Season 5, but when did Michael kill Sam? Also, I question whether Michael wanted dominance over humanity because couldn’t he have easily achieved that during all of the centuries that Lucifer was in the cage? The angels seemingly ignored earth until Lucifer was set free. However, I do agree that Michael and Raphael were no great prizes with respect to humanity. They seemed to view them more as bugs than as God’s greatest creations.
In the Song Remains the Same. *goes to check* Mmm ok Anna killed Sam – you are right that wasn’t Michael. But the rest of it is true. Michael didn’t care particularly that Sam was dead except as a way to manipulate Dean, and he did do the other things I said.
As I understand it he/they couldn’t gain dominion over the earth without doing the apocalypse first. (Zacchariah made it sound like Michael/Lucifer were just opponents trying to find which was stronger, he didn’t have any story about how Lucifer was evil and needed to be stopped – they wanted to let Lucifer out.) I feel sure if the angels could have gone down and taken over as soon as God left they would have done.
One point on which I am in complete agreement with you is the overarching storyline of the previous seasons, and how these past few seasons pale in comparison. Instead of lofty concepts such as free will vs. destiny, and the right to make your own choices and take responsibility for the consequences, we were promised a more personal story arc for the characters, that of figuring out who they really are. In principle, this could’ve been an interesting arc, even if smaller in scope and scale than that of the earlier years. But we weren’t even given the arc we were promised. I couldn’t tell you what the story line amounts to other than the nuts and bolts of Dean’s struggle with the MOC and Sam’s determination to save him. I haven’t seen either brother explore or learn anything new about themselves or their relationship. It’s been so long since the brothers have even had a truly meaningful conversation with each other. (I don’t count the endless variations on “you can’t save me”…”don’t give up”) Their relationship has seemed so different this past year and a half, and that saddens me as much as the crappy plotting and stories.
Mark P tweeted this morning “Happy Easter, Love Luci”. Hmmm….teasing maybe? Maybe not? They had to shoot out of order to accommodate someone’s schedule.
I think they said the shooting was changed to fit into Felicia Day’s schedule. Since this next episode was shot a while ago, I think that means we will get one more Charlie episode this season.
Was it someone working on the show who said that? They could be using Felicia as a cover. They are shooting the finale right now and haven’t started shooting episode 10.21 yet.
When there were strong rumors that the Trickster/Gabriel would be back in season nine, Jim Michales lied on Twitter that Richard Speight Jr. was just visiting the crew.
I’m pretty sure it was Jared talking about why they were filming the finale now, so that they could accommodate Felicia. It could be a cover, I suppose. I like MP as Lucifer and having him show up would be a nice twist.
Ugh… does that mean Charlie is in the finale? Yipee. If SHE’S there then Sam has no hope of saving the day.
I took it that Felicia’s next episode is before the finale, but she couldn’t work it into her schedule until later, but it could mean that Charlie is in the finale. I guess I didn’t even want to consider Charlie being in the finale so she could save the day.
I thought the Charlie episode was next or the one after.
I fear she may be in another after Book of the Damned?
The order in which they will shoot the episodes is 10.22, 10.23, 10.21. So Felicia will appear in episode 10.21 [i] Dark Dynasty [/i] if she is the reason they changed the schedule.
Dark Dynasty indeed. Ugh. Watch Dark!Charlie and MOCDemonDean join up with NewlyEvil!Crowley… Kidding. Tho that’s just lame enough I could see the writers going for it…
Oooh NewlyEvil!Crowley… I like!!! *Runs off to Trademark*
Could be EvilCrowley!PartDeux… oooh another good one! *Grabbie hands and runs back off with both to Trademark*
I wonder will all the characters in ‘Dark Dynasty’ have long beards and bandanas?
Now THAT’S an episode I’d like to see.
:):D:):D:o
Three Charlie eps in half a season is two and a half too many. Can’t we just have the story focus on the brothers now that we’re close to the end? This is why I’d never want Robbie T as show runner. Charlie would end up as a series regular.
Agreed! It’s not that I don’t like Felicia Day, she seems charming and sweet, but I don’t like the function that Charlie serves on the show, which is to distract the audience and take time from the boys. And lets face it, she’s far more detrimental to Sam as a character than to Dean. When she’s there she basically replaces Sam on the show. Dean spends time interacting with her rather than Sam, she takes over Sam’s research functions (with Sam suddenly becoming inept to boot!) and goes on cases with Dean while Sam goes off by himself etc. The less of her I see the better. I don’t actively dislike her the way I do Rowena, but I REALLY don’t want her in the finale. And as for RT becoming show runner, better him than Adam Glass or the nepotism duo! Andrew Dabb is looking more and more like a contender and I think he had seniority…. but to be honest I don’t think getting a new show runner will change much. Firstly, I think that the PTB from the producer’s side of things is largely responsible for what is going on now; Supernatural is a cash cow, raking in millions in syndication and merchandising. I think the producers are in “protect the brand” mode with this show and pandering to the audience is a key factor. Secondly, until Bob Singer retires or moves on I think that the basic structure we have no will not change one iota, new show runner or no.
I totally agree on Felicia and Charlie. It’s not that Charlie comes back, it’s that RT needs her to be super special and because of her skill set, that usually means Sam becoming less competent. Charlie is another one of the people who gravitate toward Dean. Even when they responded to Charlie should have a relationship with Sam, it devolved into Sam suddenly has no idea how to hack into a system and Charlie must mentor him through. Plus Dean then spill his heart to Charlie while Sam goes off for more coffee. It’s frustrating.
I agree with everything you say, although just on a fundamental level I find the character annoying (tho Felicia does seem cool). It also really bothers me that when the plot is finally moving forward after the glacial pace all year, suddenly we see Charlie in 3 eps in a very short span of time? Why is she in some of the most important eps all season? It better not come at Sam’s expense this time. It makes me uneasy that going forward next season we’ll be seeing more Charlie eps.
Seniority has little to do with it. It’s titles. Adam Glass is an Executive Producer. Andrew Dabb is a Co-Executive Producer, as is Robbie Thompson. Adam Glass came to this show already with a lot of TV experience (Criminal Minds was one show I believe). So he is the top contender for showrunner IF Carver leaves and IF they fill the position internally.
I wonder what would be better, filling internally with someone from this group, which I think has lost sight of the show or trying to go outside and getting someone with no history with the show. An outsider would either look at the history, or create their own version. It’s a conundrum. Is Carver definitely leaving? I haven’t seen any announcement, just read that he is trying to pitch a new series. If it isn’t picked up would he stick around?
I thought I read somewhere that his pilot was not picked up, but maybe he’s working on something else.
I’d pretty much rather have the devil we DON’T know. Carver can move on at any time IMH and unimportant opinion .
Huh… that’s weird considering how much longer that Dabb has been with the show (since the start of season 4 as opposed to Glass’s Season 6) and has penned some really great episodes although many of those were with Daniel Loflin. I think Dabb, although sometimes inconsistent is a much better writer overall. Interesting to know Alice, thank you! Adam Glass may have the title, but I think he is an inferior writer, dealing in cliched tropes and stereotypes rather than in complexity of character; that is of course only my opinion. 😀 Maybe he’d make a great show runner… the two things don’t necessessarily go together, I’d rather not find out though.
Are you sure about AG writing for Criminal Minds? I went to look up which episoes he’s written (I like that show but feel that the writing is often hit or miss) and I did not see his name listed as one of the 13 writers over the couse of the show. IMDB shows he’s written a few episodes of Cold Case and quite a few of Blue Collar back before Supernatural, but its a show I know nothing about. He was actually writing Cold Case at the same time as Supernatural; maybe that’s why his writing has suffered… he’s moonlighting!
Hasn’t she only been in one so far? The next one makes 2 and I think the last ep that RT writes is a heavy mytharc ep (I would be surprised if she is involved since the two M’s and the J’s are going to be wrapping up their stories for the season). At least according to his tweets. And yes he writes the episodes that she is in but he isn’t the only one responsible for her to be part of the Winchester’s lives. I think that Carver, Singer and of course the J’s are very high on her character. Her last episode was pretty focused on Dean. She seems to be popular at the cons (something I don’t think is going to happen for Ruth C), if she wasn’t a popular character I doubt she would be invited. If she becomes a series regular that might be a different issue. But 2 or 3 episodes out of 23 isn’t that horrible.
[quote] And yes he writes the episodes that she is in but he isn’t the only one responsible for her to be part of the Winchester’s lives. [/quote]
Robbie Thompson earns more money when a character he created appears in episodes so he keeps writing Charlie as Dean’s pseudo little sister.
The only way they can justify bringing Charlie back for the third time in one season and for a presumably big mytharc episode no less is if the character gets killed off.
I haven’t read the synopsis for RT’s last episode is it confirmed that Charlie will be in it? I would think the second to the last episode would be too full of other stories to shoe horn in a minor character. But like I said I haven’t read what the episode is about other than it’s a big, heavy mytharc ep to set up the finale. RT has written other episodes for SPN that don’t involve Charlie. So I do agree with you there that I wouldn’t want to see.
Last season Ross-Leming & Buckner wrote episode 21, Dabb wrote episode 22 and Carver wrote the finale. The order might be the same this time around too. So maybe Thompson wrote 10.20 [i] Angel Heart[/i].
Jason Fischer tweeted about 10.22 [i] The Prisoner[/i]:
[quote] DAMN! Cuddos to @andrewdabb for one hell of an episode. Mark your calendars for May 13th and brace for a bumpy ride. #Supernatural [/quote]
LINK ([url]”http://twitter.com/JasonFischer77/status/573990175908343808″[/url])
[quote] Jeremy Carver did write the season 10 finale of #supernatural! #SPNFamily #jimions [/quote]
LINK ([url]”http://twitter.com/TheJimMichaels/status/582900945572347904″[/url]) to Jim Michael’s Twitter
My hope is that they aren’t shooting the episodes out of order because of Felicia, I hope they are doing that for a bigger guest star considering that they’ll even shoot the finale before episode 10.21!
Now I’m dying to know who the Prisoner is–maybe …..LUCIFER?
That would actually make sense! 😀 Since the finale is titled [i] My Brother’s Keeper[/i], the show will deal with the myth of Cain and Abel. On this show, Lucifer was the one who started it all yet he hasn’t really been talked about so far.
Logistically I’m really not sure how they would incorporate Lucifer into the story without actually setting him free, but I’m getting so excited at the prospect of seeing Mark P that I’m going to be disappointed if the plot goes in a different direction. And you’re right, the Cain and Abel story is so inextricably linked to Lucifer that they almost need to include him in any resolution of the MOC. Heck, I’m going out on a limb and predicting that Lucifer will be involved somehow. And if I’m wrong, just pretend I never opened my big mouth.
I think that Sam could talk to Lucifer without having to free him first. It would in a way be a parallel to Abel especially if Sam talking to Lucifer would lead to Dean fearing that Sam is being corrupted. (Of course the means of achieving the connection would be a problem as we discussed earlier.)
I’m curious to know what kind of relationship Sam and Lucifer would have now. In season five, Lucifer seemed to have a twisted sort of regard for Sam.
[quote] And you’re right, the Cain and Abel story is so inextricably linked to Lucifer that they almost need to include him in any resolution of the MOC. [/quote]
They were so quiet about it that I actually wondered during season nine whether Dean had told Sam that he had accepted something that originated from Lucifer!
I’ve actually thought of a way for Sam to contact Lucifer. They go to that same psychic from Inside Man, and since they apparently need something that belongs to the one they’re trying to contact, they use Sam. Hey, Lucifer “wore” Sam in the same way that Bobby wore that hat. Now, since there presumably is no radio in the cage, instead Sam communicates with Lucy purely mentally. So we get to see MP without Lucy being set free. I’m still working on what kind of deal Sam could make. After I get home from my day job I will get to work on that and finish fleshing out my hypothetical, never to be seen on your TV screen, episode.
Maybe Bobby? He may be in angel prison right now.
Ok I hadn’t thought of Bobby, but it did seem like the angels were taking him away at the end of the episode. But I’m not sure how the story would link up to Bobby again. So while I wouldn’t mind if the title did refer to Bobby, I’m sticking to my farfetched prediction that the Prisoner is Lucifer. BOOM!
I wouldn’t hate it.;)
I am hoping that the prisoner is Sam, but it’s probably Dean.
Or maybe Sam contacts Lucifer and Dean finds out and tries to kill Sam “for his own good” thus recreating the original circumstance of the mark? Of course Sam would have to NOT die somehow..
Still doesn’t Crowley and Cas have to die first? That was Cain’s prediction, Crowely then Cas, then Sam. So if Crowley and Cas make it through these next few episodes, I’m not going to be able to muster up much fear for Sam’s safety.
Hmm, interesting. I did hypothesize to SanSummer a few posts up how Sam might actually contact Lucy. I’m off to work but I’m sure I’ll spend more time mulling over all of the possibilities than focusing on my job!
Who do you you think might take either one of them prisoner? Rowena or Crowley? I feel like there’s no real “big bad” anymore.
The bottom line is, while Felicia seems like a cool person, Charlie really gets on my nerves. I thought she was ok in her first episode, but since then she’s morphed from Charlie the computer genius to Charlie the hunter, Charlie the kick-ass fighter, Charlie the best at everything! And they always dumb down Sam to accentuate Charlie’s brilliance. Aside from all that, it just annoys me that, like virtually all of the recurring characters and series regulars, Charlie’s favorite is Dean. So Dean gets almost all of the meaningful interactions with her while Sam exits stage left. In short, as E said, I think Charlie’s screen time comes at Sam’s expense. I know lots of fans like the character, but I’m not one of them. Even if they wanted to have her in 3 episodes (if it’s really true that she will be in 2 more this season) it really bugs me that instead of spacing them out and having her be in some of the endless filler episodes we’ve had, suddenly it’s like she’s becoming part of the myth arc. Do we really need Charlie to help figure out how to save Dean? It’s one thing for Sam to have Cas’s help, but to need Charlie as well? Sam has had so little to do all year, and now that his so-called story seems to actually be heating up, they’re going to focus on Charlie’s efforts? Man, that will tick me off if she makes any meaningful contribution to “curing” Dean. Sorry to rant, but I’ve been waiting all year for Sam to have a bigger role and I don’t want his part diminished by Charlie. I know you like her, and that’s great. Hey, I’m in the minority of fans who really likes Metatron but I understand why others don’t. And I’ve liked almost all of the recurring characters on SPN. Just not Charlie.
Well I’m not going to jump off a bridge yet. I still think this is all going to boil down to the brothers. Charlie is a minor character in the series. I would be right along there with you if she plays a bigger part in saving Dean than Sam. But I honestly think Castiel and Crowley will have a much bigger role in whatever is going to happen. I don’t think that Dean is going to be saved this season. I think that is why we have had such a slow burn. They wanted to draw this story out into next year. Like I posted above RT has written other episodes that had nothing to do with Charlie.
I’m starting to think that the writers have no intention of having Sam save Dean. I think they will have him fail. If not, they certainly won’t let Sam do it on his own, or even be the main person saving Dean. Charlie will have her hand in it, Cas too. I wouldn’t be surprised if Crowley and Rowena play important roles. Sam will go get the important characters coffee. I think the writers think “curing” Dean, which didn’t even hold for the entire season is the only thing Sam will do to save him. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m preparing for the alternative.
I hope you are wrong too. It would make little sense to have Sam spend most of the season working to find ways of saving his brother to then hand the “save” over to another character. I don’t have a problem with assists from other characters, they have often reached out to friends and allies but I 100% think this needs to be a CLEAR win for Sam.
I’m starting to think you and Cheryl are right and that nobody saves Dean. How else could they accordion the MOC plot into next year? But then what is this intense finale we’re hearing about? If it’s Dean becoming a demon again I’ll be ticked because been there, done that. And if he can’t save Dean, then Sam’s story arc (such as it was) was utterly pointless, unless he makes some terrible decision that either leaves him in a bad position, or actually makes things worse for Dean. I have to say, I’m more intensely curious about how this will unfold than I’ve been about the show in awhile. But I will take your advice Cheryl and not blow my lid about a Charlie “save” unless and until it happens. And at that point you will read some blistering comments from me, using language that would make Navy Seals blush.:):)
Agreed!!! Charlie’s presence will ultimately diminish Sam…. and I too could do without Charlie involved in the myth arc.
BTW: I like Metatron too! :p
What I like about him is that he’s a smart angel (so many of them these past few years seem like morons) and he is hilarious. I think Curtis A. does an amazing job as Metatron.
Me too! Love his cunning and his smarts and his ego. I even love that he’s insecure. 😉
Yes, this is how I feel exactly. I wonder, can anyone name a secondary character or weekly guest star that came in and took screen time, contribution and smarts away from Dean? Other than Bella (and BOTH brothers had to suffer HER) I can’t think of one single time that happened… especially not lately. Every time Dean “bonds” with a guest star it’s at Sam’s expense.
Thanks, [i] cheryl42[/i]!
When I briefly looked at Mark’s Twitter after hearing that Jensen had followed him, what caught my attention was that Mark had retweeted:
[quote] Hey @jarpad it was mentioned on this weeks show about asking Lucifer about removing the mark. Please tell me @MarkRPellegrino will come back [/quote]
Honestly I really don’t think they are going to go there. Specially since “the river shall end at the source” didn’t really mean anything. I still think the Mark and the Blade will get it’s power from Dean killing or trying to kill Sam. I have a feeling that the big cliffhanger will be one brother killing the other or trying to.
It would be interesting to get a flashback of Abel and Lucifer. The problem is that Mark Pellegrino doesn’t just play Lucifer, he also plays Lucifer’s vessel, Nick.
But maybe Lucifer could take a familiar form in Sam and/or Dean’s mind if they communicated with him.
It’s possible to talk to someone who is in Heaven so the cage shouldn’t be out of bounds either especially for the Winchesters who are part of the mythology.
The last time someone talked to Lucifer in the cage it involved a room full of slaughtered nuns….Sam may be desperate but I can’t see him going there.
Yes, [i] samandean10 [/i] already mentioned that.
Maybe forming a connection to Hell always requires a blood sacrifice.
By the way, I don’t think that Azazel had to slaughter all of the nuns to speak to Lucifer.
[b] 6.01 Exile on Main St. [/b]
[i] Dean: — I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.
Sam: You promised you’d leave it alone.
Dean: Of course I didn’t leave it alone! Sue me! — [/i]
Maybe Dean could try to refresh his memory. There might have been some useful knowledge in those books if they need something from Lucifer.
Here’s to [i]hoping[/i] that Sam wouldn’t slaughter a roomful of nuns or be willing to unleash Lucifer on the world again. It seemed at the start of Carver’s three year arc that they were going to show Dean that maybe going to such lengths to save his brother was not a good idea. Then somewhere along the line it become Dean who was doing the noble and right thing and Sam who needed to learn that going to any and all lengths was OK when it came to saving ones brother, hence the possession. Given the inexplicable shift in the tone of the story part way through, my one dread is that Sam will do something reprehensible… that he will compromise his very last moral to save Dean, once again proving that Dean’s way is the right way and that what Sam has always thought of as the moral and right thing to do is in fact WRONG by Winchester standards. I would hate to see the final destruction of Sam in this way and pray to GOD that this is not where they are headed. But all of this “dark road” business is making me anxious. If Sam does in fact do something awful to save Dean, showing Dean once and for all that he is in fact willing to do anything for him, it will STILL backfire on him as the tone shifts yet again to “you shouldn’t have done that Sam!” That is the number one thing I DO NOT WANT TO SEE. This is followed closely by the number 2 thing I DO NOT WANT TO SEE, which is Sam making all sorts of questionable decisions, going down his “dark path” and then be tricked or have the rules change on him in the last second so that he ends up dooming Dean rather than saving him; or dooming himself rather than saving Dean or dooming the world because he THOUGHT he was saving Dean. Been there, done that… NEW storyline please. And the number 3 thing I DO NOT WANT TO SEE is for Sam to be rendered unconscious at which point Charlie and Cas swoop in to save the day. Are you listening PTB? Who am I kidding, they don’t care that much about the story they are telling and they certainly don’t care about Sam enough not to make him guilty or a fool or inept.
I think that Azazel slaughtered all of the nuns because he could. It seems that he only needed to kill one person to speak to Lucifer. And it doesn’t look like it had to be nun(s) specifically. Azazel found it amusing that someone had built a convent on top of a door to Lucifer’s cage.
I don’t think that Sam would let Lucifer out (again). But maybe he would want to talk to Lucifer sort of like Abel did. Although Sam did try to open the Devil’s Gate when Dean was in Hell. Shouldn’t the cage be Hell adjacent?
Sam also forced Dar to make a call by cutting a wound to her neck so Sam is not adverse to using blood.
‘Whats black and white and red all over?’ Yeah and some people were still on the fence about Ruby? Sheesh!
That was said in Lucifer Rising, Ruby’s last episode. By that time it was crystal clear she was evil. So no you can’t judge those of us who thought Ruby might be good based on that. We knew by that time that Cas was a saint and Ruby was evil.
Does Sam still have remnants of Lucifers grace (tho now that I think of it, why would Lucifer have any grace?) left behind from when he took him over? Or did that get erased when Cas healed Sam after the attempted Gadreel grace extraction?
Thinking about something that could kill Lucifer – what about the Sword of Destiny aka “Gods Little Toothpick”‘… Maybe they threaten him with that? Or maybe it will come into play to ultimately save Dean? The Sword of Destiny vs The First Blade? Sams weapon vs Deans. Holy vs demonic. Wouldn’t that be a reversal!?! I can’t believe they introduced it only to never mention it again. I mean they showed 3 artifacts (4 if you include the Busty Asian Beauty mag – ha!) One already used – the Key to Oz – and then there was that little container Dean sniffed, and finally TSOD. Sam and Dean must be partially brain damaged from all the hits they have taken not to consider it!! Consider credulity stretched there. 😉
Hmmmm……. Lucifer’s grace. All angels have grace, but would a fallen angel have grace? Is that what makes them fallen, its removal? Or is it more a corruption of their grace? Was Anna technically fallen? She had grace. I would dearly love to learn that Sam has been carrying around some of Lucifer’s grace all this time. It would shore up one of the worst dropped plot lines of the Carver years if that tidbit came back into play and made that whole “help me do one right thing” scene mean SOMETHING.
And has anyone considered that Metatron might lead Cas right back to Claire as they search for HIS leftover grace? Metatron has no idea that Cas has already hooked up with Claire, so he could be leading Cas right back to her. That would make sense story wise, but that would also mean that we have to see more of Claire. I am tying to decide who I want to see less… Rowena or Claire? I think Claire wins because at least Rowena has become pivotal to the plot (finally).
[quote] All angels have grace, but would a fallen angel have grace? [/quote]
I think that on this show being a fallen angel means something different.
[b] 5.10 Abandon All Hope… [/b]
[i] Lucifer: Castiel. I don’t understand why you’re fighting me, of all the angels
Castiel: You really have to ask?
Lucifer: I rebelled, I was cast out. You rebelled, you were cast out. — — [/i]
[quote] That would make sense story wise, but that would also mean that we have to see more of Claire. [/quote]
Kathryn Newton was spotted on location filming 10.20 [i] Angel Heart [/i] but I don’t think that spoiler was ever posted here.
LINK ([url]”http://twitter.com/hushrules/status/575124144402001920/photo/1″[/url])
She also shot a short video with Jensen and Misha:
LINK ([url]”http://instagram.com/p/0TLktFPVPd/”[/url]) to Misha’s Instagram account.
Oh… and I’d LOVE IT with the passion of 1,000 suns if what saved Dean was a certain amulet…..:)
[quote] Does Sam still have remnants of Lucifers grace (tho now that I think of it, why would Lucifer have any grace?) left behind from when he took him over? Or did that get erased when Cas healed Sam after the attempted Gadreel grace extraction? [/quote]
[b] 8.23 Sacrifice [/b]
[i] Metatron: And what I’m taking from you [Castiel] now — your essence, your Grace — [/i]
Lucifer was still an angel so I think that he should still have his grace.
The way Misha played Castiel in that scene gave me the impression that Castiel was lying because if he had extracted all of the grace, Sam could have died. In addition, there might have been another clue in the episode:
[b] 9.11 First Born [/b]
[i] Sam: You’re a terrible liar.
Castiel: That is not true. I once deceived and betrayed both you and your brother. [/i]
However, I don’t think that Sam should still have Lucifer’s grace in him because Castiel never noticed anything weird after Sam came back from the cage, not even after Sam had his soul back.
I was thinking the same thing. If Sam had had Lucifer grace inside him Cas should have mentioned it when he was extracting Gadreel’s grace or at the very least Sam should have asked. If tptb bring the Lucifer grace issue back now it will leave a plot hole the size of Cleveland behind… not that tptb seem to mind that sort of thing.
Slap me cynical but given Jeremy and the writers I would be surprised they remember Sam is Lucifer’s true vessel let alone think about risdule grace.
Here is how it could work. Let’s say that Sam had residual Lucifer grace from being in the box. Perhaps that was what was causing the ‘hellucinations’. Sam lost that problem when Castiel took it on. So maybe Castiel got the residual grace. He then went crazy (and got interested in bees…who else was interested in bees? … someone who was cursed by Lucifer! Cain! (Tenuous link FTW)) so maybe in his crazy mind he didn’t realize it was fallen-angel grace causing the problem. Since then he has been reset a bunch of times by the other angels, which could also have had the effect of preventing him from knowing that some of his grace was really Lucifers.
Now Castiel’s grace is in two possible locations 1) in Claire – which happened before the situation with Sam so she wouldn’t be affected by Lucifer, and 2) possibly Metatron has some left over. We will know when he gets Castiel to the end of the wild-goose chase (I think that Claire is what they are planning for the storyline TBH). However if Metatron has a lot of it hidden away they may suddenly realize that it is a conduit to Lucifer. Problem solved! Or at least the plot hole is smaller than Cleveland anyway.
Clever eilf! That could work. Only I think it’s too clever for TPTB. I’d be surprised (read shocked beyond belief) if they could track something like that accurately. I DO think that we are going to have to suffer through another episode with Claire though. Ugh. Hopefully she will end up “sacrificing herself” in some way. gag.
Tots right about Claire….. humph
I agree. At least I hope they don’t go down that route of Lucifer and the cage (or even God for that matter). How could that make logical sense? Why would Lucifer help? TFW aren’t going to release him. What do they have to offer – a cage with a nicer view? A lot of what I’ve been reading everywhere sounds like a fan fic wishlist that Show probably couldn’t even remotely pull off. It would be so big. Look what they did with the angels falling. That could gave been huge and promised to be but it turned into a major snoozefest… Half the time it felt like the writers didn’t even know what to do with it. If it’s going to be Lucifer based at least have it be believeable and not a retread of what we had before. The one idea of Michael getting out might be interesting. Or Hell just have Adam escape and try and wreak havoc and revenge. Could you imagine how insane he would be at this point? Season 11’s Big Bad. I’m just skeptical our current mish mash of writing staff could do a lot of these storylines justice, you know?
I will say if God actually comes on the show I’m out. Right now it was implied that Chuck is God and Rob Benedict has said he was told he was God, but the show itself never said he was God. That is just fine by me. I actually don’t want Chuck to be God and if I have to say that he is, I won’t be happy and I will be done. For me God really has no place in this universe, or at least not until the final episode.
Death maybe? Could that be the actor they needed to reschedule for? Or are they all out of Death favors? Unless Dean threatens the universe.
Yeah, because if they bring the big “G” into it now it would seem like wasting your best player before the game is even over! Well, you know what I mean!
I have a question. Is it the Book of the Damned or the Book of the Dead? I’ve seen it both ways.
Book of the Damned.
According to the press release, episode 10.18 is titled [i] Book of the Damned[/i]. However, it also stated:
[quote] FELICIA DAY RETURNS AS CHARLIE — Charlie (guest star Felicia Day) calls Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) to tell them she found the Book of the Dead which could help remove the Mark of Cain. [/quote]
There might have been a mix-up because in 10.11 [i] There’s No Place Like Home [/i] Sam said, [i] “I found this book. It’s a lore book — “The Book of the Damned.” [/i]
CW Press Releases aren’t exactly known for their accuracy. I’m certain it’s Book of the Damned.
Thanks Percysowner and SanSummer1. I can see why it got a bit confusing.
It seems to me that the people responsible for writing up the synopsis for the press releases are getting a little sloppy; the Book of the Dead is Egyptian dating back to 1500BC and certainly not something Charlie would find in Italy of all places. And there IS a book called The Book of the Damned by Charles Fort written in 1919 in which the author attempts to explain bizarre phenomenon… which also does not seem like something that Charlie would be finding in Italy especially considering that you can get copies on amazon. This bit of confusion coupled with last weeks disaster episode in which the synopsis described the victims as being subjected to “long-term disembowelment” is showing a pretty bad trend in lazy carelessness lately. There was nothing about the killings in the wretched Paint It Black that was remotely “long term” or technically disembowelment either. To me this this is just another sign of how much the writing staff seems to be phoning it in as of late. I wish they’d get it in gear as they have a cast and crew up in Canada still trying to do their best, who are still enthusiastic about their jobs. Too bad the writers neither appreciate that nor seem to care.
That’s on the assumption that the SPN writers are the same people who write the press releases, which I don’t think they are.
By SPN writers or no, it’s just plain sloppy. Does nobody check their facts any more?