Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 10.07 “Girls, Girls, Girls”
Summary: This episode was written by Robert Berens and directed by Robert Singer. The episode focuses on several stories that involve the introduction of the Rowena character, the exploration of the Hannah backstory, and the reemergence of the Cole character.
The episode begins with a story focusing on a ring of hookers with an obligatory Dean wanting sex intro. The sex trade ring is revealed to be a demon deal warehouse and in enters Rowena, who takes out the demonic pimp and treats his girls to a high class restaurant for dinner. We learn more about Rowena’s history as an outsider as we turn to Sam and Dean chasing the case. We also learn that Crowley is not happy that his demon dealing was being done through a brothel. More on Crowley later…
In the other story thread, Castiel and Hannah are travelling together and Hannah is approached by a man who we learn is the husband of Hannah’s vessel, Caroline. Hannah pretends to be having an affair with Castiel to make her husband leave, but as we learn later in the episode, in a very well written monologue, Hannah explains that she is going back to heaven because the damage the angels bring to their vessels and families undermine their mission on earth. She lets her light run free and Caroline falls into Castiel’s arms.
In the second half of the episode with Rowena and the boys, they find Rowena with the girls but she sics one of the girls on them with a spell. As Sam fights the spellbound prostitute, Dean chases Rowena. He is about to capture her when Cole shows up. We’d seen Cole earlier tormenting a demon for information. Dean gives up his gun and Rowena gets away. A fight ensues between Cole and Dean. Cole thinks Dean is a demon but when he realizes Dean is no longer a demon, they go full on fisticuffs. Dean calls for a five minute truce to explain what happened to Cole’s father, who we learn was a monster who ate livers (something tells me Berens doesn’t like pate). Sam shows up with a gun but Dean calls him off and I’ll be honest, the emotional dialogue of this scene is some of the best I’ve seen in a long time on this show, so kudos Berens.
In the final sequence, Castiel takes Caroline back to her husband and we see him looking up Jimmy Novak on his laptop. In the next scene, Cole drives away, leaving Sam and Dean to move on. And in the most twisty ending, we see Rowena being held by Crowley who recognizes her…..with “Mother?”
Questions to Ponder:
So how about that Rowena reveal? What do you think the story is there?
Do you think Dean really meant what he said about being beyond saving?
Where does Sam go from here?
What do you think of Castiel’s search for Jimmy? Do you agree with Hannah’s decision?
Great stuff this week to chew on so what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here!
First of all, just wanted to say i love this website. Love reading everyones opinion on the show.
I love the scene between Cole and Dean, it made me teary-eyed. Im so glad in general that we are getting to see story lines that are so personal for Sam, Dean, Cas and, Crowley. Im happy Cas is starting to look into Jimmy Novak because i always wonder about that.
I love This episode!! even during not so great episodes i always find something to like thats how much i love this show! 🙂 I gotta say Im love this season especially getting to see Sam and Dean building their relationship again.
Honestly not seeing a personal storyline for Sam at all, Jared has even hinted that there isnt much going on on the Sam front either.
Sam is just being the dutiful little brother everyone has been moaning about wanting to see .
LOVED this episode! It had a bit of everything! Rowena looks like she could be a fun villain for the season, I really can’t wait to see her again! Seriously, between the drama, the action, the storytelling and a huge reveal… Supernatural again does more in one show than some shows do in a season, I swear. I’m still wearing a big grin on my face lol.
So much happened in this episode! Great episode and can I say, 10th season and it has been amazing so far! Truly loving this season! Let me start with Dean. His whole “darkness” speech to Cole was so very Dean. He’s never felt himself worthy of being saved still gets me in the feels. His darkness is creeping back in and he knows it but is keeping it from Sam for reasons that can only be summed up by saying “typical Dean.” And Sammy senses it too but can’t get Dean to talk about it. UGH! And Cas…oh my poor angel is alone again. I seriously just want to give all 3 of them a hug then knock their heads together! And I guessed Rowena was Crowley’s mom. Oh and Cole…I hope we get more of him. I mean his dad was an unknown monster?! Doesn’t that mean Cole might be too? And what about Cole’s brother that he talked about in the first episode? Was he a monster? What happened to him? I adore Robert Berens’ writing! He always puts a lot of twists into it! Looking forward to the ladies next week! Should be fantastic!
The relationship between a vessel and an angel is confusing. Adam and Eve had been naked once so Castiel’s reaction to seeing “Hannah” without her clothes on seemed very humanlike… Castiel has internalized certain rules of the society. Was some part of Castiel attracted to what he saw? If so, was he attracted to the vessel or the angel inside the human body? Or was the attraction only because of Castiel’s own vessel?
5.03 [i] Free to Be You and Me [/i] showed that Dean felt comfortable visiting a brothel. In addition, Dean and Castiel had the following conversation:
[i] Dean: The hell did you do?
Castiel: I don’t know. I just looked her in the eyes and told her it wasn’t her fault that her father Gene ran off. It was because he hated his job at the post office.
Dean: Oh, no, man.
Castiel: What?
Dean: This whole industry runs on absent fathers. It’s, it’s the natural order. [/i]
I think Dean said to Shaylene, [i] “See, I have this code. No cash for ass,” [/i] because he hadn’t expected her to ask for a payment. Back in the day, Dean had not been above enjoying some aspects of the prostitution business.
Maybe Dean’s dating profile picture wasn’t old. At the motel, Dean was wearing a black t-shirt that looked like the one in the picture. Dean does like that particular style though.
It felt pretty horrible to watch Hannah kiss Castiel because it was breaking the husband’s heart.
It seems like Rowena tried to present herself as being all about female power but in actuality she is looking out for number one.
Crowley being so offended by the sex trade indicates that he is not all that demonic. Or Mother taught him well?
Maybe Hannah’s journey will help knock some sense into people who thought that Sam was all kinds of wrong for feeling deeply hurt that Dean had allowed an angel in.
It looked like Dean touched Cole on purpose when Cole handed the gun back to Dean. Dean feeling a connection to a man like Cole doesn’t bode well for Dean.
I think it’s good that the show won’t sweep the issues concerning Jimmy and Claire Novak under the rug anymore. I think that had done a disservice to Castiel as a character.
[quote]Crowley being so offended by the sex trade indicates that he is not all that demonic. Or Mother taught him well?[/quote]
I think Crowley’s always kind of been a stickler for rules, even principles, despite being a demon. In Time for a Wedding (at least I think it was. I’m not entirely sure since I hated that episode), he was rather pissed that his minions were welching on their deals, by taking the souls before it was time (I believe he also made a point of saying they weren’t lawyers, after all), so it kind of makes an odd bit of sense that he’d be offended by demons “increasing their revenues” by getting involved in the sex trade. 😀
Hi, PaintedWolf.
In 7.08 [i] Season Seven, Time for a Wedding!, [/i] Crowley was angry because his demons had been really shortsighted. If they continued collecting early, no one would be willing to make deals with demons anymore.
Crowley exploits people who do not understand the true value of their soul. He doesn’t care if the person sells their soul for frivolous reasons (sex) or for nefarious reasons (murder).
Thus, I find it interesting that Crowley seemed like he would have never approved of the new operation.
[i] Crowley: A bordello? You opened a whorehouse in my name? — — So, you and your half-wit pal threw me into the sex trade? I’m evil, that’s just tacky.
Demon: We got her. Right in there — tortured. If you’d like, I could finish her off.
Crowley: Wipe that ridiculous smile off your face. What do you want, a medal? A “thank you” for cleaning up the mess you made?! [/i]
Are brothels just too low-class in his opinion or did a part of Crowley dislike the new strategy to get souls because it involved forced prostitution?
Ah, yes, I do remember now (as I said, I think I may have blocked a lot of that episode from my memory, unfortunately) It is an interesting thought, and possibly a combination of both. I do recall he mentioned something about having integrity in TFAW, though I wonder if some of his new-found human-ness has something to do with it, as well.
Yes, I wonder how much credit should go to Sam and how much to Crowley’s mother. Sex and violence should not be that big of a deal to the King of Hell. And is Crowley even a demon strictly speaking? He smokes out red and his eyes have never flashed.
HUNTER NETWORK
there is your SPIN-OFF
PTB get cracking.
Wow, there was a lot going on! Berens did a good job juggling the story lines I’ll give him that! OK to the questions: Aside from the horrible quick zoom in that Singer seems to like (sorry, I was a Cinema major and it kills me when he does that) I am interested to see what happens with Crowley and his mom. I totally leaned forward and yelled WHAT!? when he said “Mother?”. I spent most of the episode trying to decide if I actually really liked her or what and now, definitely like her. I think to a certain degree Dean thinks he is beyond saving but he knows how much that would bother Sam so he brushes it off like he just said it. He is the king of self-imposed guilt and even though he was a demon I’m sure he would still beat himself up over that. I don’t know where Sam goes from here … I mean, maybe worry about Dean, but I have to admit he hasn’t been given much of a story for a while and I’m not even a Sam girl complaining about it. I’m totally a Cas girl but even I can see Sam hasn’t been given the best story … yeah, he’s there because it wouldn’t be Supernatural without him but I’m hoping he gets a better story at some point. Please? He’s more than just Dean’s brother and Cas’s friend, he’s an “actual” person. Ok, done with that. I kinda worry about Cas’s search for Claire because I’m afraid he’ll decide to follow Hannah’s lead … although I would think Jimmy is actually dead at this point, what with Cas having been killed at the end of S4, S5, beginning of S7 and then as a human in S9. Not to mention the fact that he was human for a while and had a soul and Jimmy didn’t seem to be home, so to speak, at that time. I understand why Hannah chose to leave her vessel to let her go back to her life and it seemed like that whole story line was kinda tapped out anyway. Besides, at some point, Cas needs to reconnect with the boys … as much as I appreciate that they’ve tried to give him some character development I hate him being away from the boys so much.
I thought that Cole was being planted as a possible lead for a spinoff but that seems to have gone by the wayside as well. Guess he could show up again, but at the same time he should go back to his family while he still has one.
Loved this one! But seriously, I’m almost tired of saying that this season. Every episode thus far has had me totally hooked.
Dean’s conversation to Cole was fantastic and so very Dean. I think he meant every word, including unfortunately, the part about being past saving. I think his “telling the guy what he needs to hear” comment was truer for Sam than for Cole. Not that it helped much. I wonder how many episodes in a row they can end with Sam looking worried? Guy’s gonna get wrinkles. :p
Personally I’ve never understood the complaints that one brother wasn’t getting enough of a story. They’re partners in crime and whatever they do, a “Dean story” is going to affect Sam as much as a “Sam story” is going to affect Dean. It’s a “Dean story” right now, and Sam’s job is going to be to help him through it. Seriously, there’s enough going on in the show right now without Sam spontaneously breaking out into plotline.
Rowena was fun. Not sure how I feel about the Crowley’s mom twist, but I suppose it has potential. I felt so bad for Cas though! He looked so sad and lonely. And I was really starting to like Hannah, so I’m sad she’s gone. I wonder if Castiel is going to consider going back to heaven for good and leaving Jimmy Novak to his family. It’s nice in theory, but then we’d have to lose Cas! 🙁
[quote]Loved this one! But seriously, I’m almost tired of saying that this season. Every episode thus far has had me totally hooked.[/quote]
That’s me this season, too! Somehow unbelievable, I mean, it [i]is[/i] the show’s 10th season! 🙂
I did anticipate that Cole would come around. Potential allies tend to like and respect Dean.
Cole and Dean’s talk wasn’t that satisfying to me and neither was Cole’s exit.
I think that witches have been generally misused on the show in the past. Maybe covens would be a good way to expand the mythology.
Now two back-to-back episodes have ended with Sam letting Dean deflect. I hope that’s about to change.
This episode was good. It set up or moved along the three big “personal” story arcs this season. Castiel looks like he is going to try to make things right for Jimmy’s family. Metatron mentioned that there is a bit of Castiel’s grace left out there – since angels leave behind some grace when they leave a vessel, maybe that was what Metatron was referring to, the grace left in Claire when Castiel possessed her at the end of S4?
The twist in Hannah’s story was unexpected but it was nice to see an angel actually learn a lesson. I liked Hannah; it was a shame they couldn’t find more for her to do.
And I’m sure Rowena is going to stir up a lot of trouble for Crowley. Crowley’s “Hi Mom” was the biggest non-surprise of the season – many had been guessing that she was Fergus MacLeod’s mother. Though, I gotta say it is a little difficult to understand Rowena’s accent at times. I do wonder, though – is Rowena here as a result of the timeline changing because Gavin MacLeod was brought to the present by Abaddon and didn’t die on a ship bound for America?
Dean’s MoC arc appears as though it’s going to start moving along now; his “I’m beyond saving” wasn’t terribly surprising; he has said this in some shape or form multiple times over the years. Just praying he doesn’t go in to full-on angst mode again.
The Cole thing wrapped up pretty quickly; wonder if we’re going to see him again; maybe the demons come after his family for torturing/killing one of them?
It was nice to see the brotherly teasing at the beginning of the episode; this type of thing had been sorely lacking over the past couple of seasons.
I was glad to see they took a few second to expand on the witch lore, rather than just flipping the fans the bird and saying that’s the way it’s going to be.
And Sam is in trusty-sidekick mode this season but at least they aren’t knocking him unconscious or sending him out for beer every week; an effort is being made to keep both brothers involved in the story so that’s an improvement. A bit of heavy foreshadowing when it comes to Dean and the MoC, though. This was the second week in a row – in Ask Jeeves, Sam was talking to the shifter maid at the end, telling her that being a monster was her choice; she replied that it was too late and that the choice was made for her when she was locked up all those years ago. Then, this week, Sam telling the “attack dog” prostitute to fight whatever Rowena did to her. and her saying I can’t.
You tied that up nicely. When/where are your reviews….
This fandom is so smart
I loved the fight. Best one ever,
human to human Dean. sorta 😮
looked to me like berens was in charge of clean up and I thought he did a nice job of it. he managed to do away with Hannah and cole in a touching way. he didn’t kill them, so if tptb want it, we can see them again. I love this show and out of 200 plus eps, I can honestly count on one hand how many eps I actually watched once and will never watch again. 😀 that being said, although I did enjoy this hour, this is the first ep of the season where I don’t feel the need for a rewatch. I could honestly wait for the cycle of reruns that comes during break:D.
it isn’t because the episode was bad, but simply because my interest lies more with the brothers. I much rather watch the episodes where they are off on a motw case saving people. I love cas and Crowley, but I enjoy it more when their stories intertwine with the boys. I understand the need for cas to have his own thing going on, as it gives the boys the time off they so desperately need and deserve, I guess it’s just cas’ story and the whole angel thing that I find, I don’t know….dull perhaps. in all honesty i’m not really sure why cas and Hannah are looking for angels anyway….but there is a bright side that may lead cas to a more interesting storyline as the season progresses…..seems to me that Hannah’s departure from her vessel and why has given cas some pause regarding jimmy novak…..so maybe there will be more interaction between cas and jimmy’s family in the future.
as for Crowley, he’s always a delight, so i’m not really as bothered when we see him doing his thing, as his thing always ends up involving the winchesters:D. I already guessed that Rowena was Crowley’s mother when she was first introduced and the question was asked who we thought she was. I am curious to see what develops between them…..I got the feeling that Crowley has mommy issues…:D
I did enjoy all the sam and dean scenes and I don’t feel that sam doesn’t have a story. this is exactly what was said when sam had the db and everyone thought dean didn’t have a story. the show is about sam and dean and what happens to one affects the other. there isn’t nor has there never been a non story for these boys. sam has a very big part to play and something doesn’t have to happen to someone to feel like their an integral part of the story. the conversation between dean and cole and then with sam and dean, is one that we’ve all seen before. dean’s defeatist attitude: we saw it when he sold his soul, we saw it in point of no return when dean was going to say yes to Michael, we saw it in trial and error and we saw glimpses of it in chris angel and jus in bello. whether you consider dean a realist or a pessimist, dean has always believed it’s going to end bloody for him. dean doesn’t have faith so therein he doesn’t really have much hope. for dean, it’s more of an “it is what it is, I chose the life, I’m ok with it.”
sam is a different animal. sam has always had faith. sam has always believed in the light at the end of the tunnel. sam doesn’t see life ending bloody, he’s sees hope and a future for them both. it’s sam’s faith and love that will save dean. sam might have cured dean for the moment, but he hasn’t saved him. the saving will when sam reaches dean and dean is able to find the hope and faith that he is worth saving and that he could be. sam is going to be the one to fight for the both of them, because dean doesn’t care enough to bother to fight for himself. that’s how sam will save him. if you ask me, I don’t see a more important role than that. 😉
[quote]sam is a different animal. sam has always had faith. sam has always believed in the light at the end of the tunnel. sam doesn’t see life ending bloody, he’s sees hope and a future for them both. it’s sam’s faith and love that will save dean. sam might have cured dean for the moment, but he hasn’t saved him. the saving will when sam reaches dean and dean is able to find the hope and faith that he is worth saving and that he could be. sam is going to be the one to fight for the both of them, because dean doesn’t care enough to bother to fight for himself. that’s how sam will save him. if you ask me, I don’t see a more important role than that.[/quote]
Wow, nappi, I really, really adore that image, and I so hope that’s how things are going to play out. I also believe Sam hasn’t quite saved Dean completely yet, which is possibly why the whole Demon!Dean story line was done and dusted so quickly, hopefully because the real, angsty story is still coming up.
thank you…..it’s something that I truly believe.
Happy Thanksgiving Fandom……Enjoy your day and your loved ones. 🙂
Happy Thanksgiving to you Nappi and also to everyone else at The Winchester Family Business. 🙂
I dont agree with you about Sam having a storyline at all. When Sam had the bd storyline Dean had his own storyline and the POV he was upfront and centre while Sam’s tory played in the background. I would liken Sam’s storyline more to Dean’s season 8 second half except Dean had several episodes that were about him/Dean centric/Dean heavy where Sam only had the last 3 episodes of the season. Which he shared with Cas. I remeber everyone calling that Dean’s guilty cheerleader role, even Jensen complained about it.
Sam has saved Dean as far as he can withut getting rid of the MOC, this is similar to Dean saving Sam in season 6 where Dean had Sam’s soul restored but the rest was up to Death and Sam himself. So I dont see why Dean shouldnt have to play the biggest part in saving himself. He doesnt see himself worthy of being saved then there isnt anythign Sam can do to change his mind, esp since this self pitying Dean storyline crops up every season. Having others stroke his ego isnt going to help, he needs to get on with it or get over it much like Sam has over the years.
I agree with this. Sam does not have a storyline outside of Dean and currently what little bit there is consists of soulful looks and unvoiced worry; it’s passive and inactive. He’s not doing anything and there’s no focus on what he thinks or what his plans are. He’s hasn’t spoken to anyone else about his concerns for Dean so we’ve got nothing. That is not a story line and not fitting for a lead character IMO. When the story was about Sam and the demon blood, Dean got the whole thing revolving around the introduction of Cas, returning from hell, being the Michael Vessel, being the chief fighter against the forces of heaven etc… and he was hardly lacking in the POV department and his participation in things was completely active and involved. But that was back when the writers on staff could do more than one thing at a time and write for more than one character at a time. Clearly that is not the case any more; when one brother has a story the other brother is wall paper and Sam has been wallpaper FAR more often that Dean has in the past three years. Cole’s story, which originally involved Sam, completely shut him out at the end and became all about Dean as though Cole hadn’t tortured Sam and that torture meant absolutely nothing in the long run (just like the Angel possession). I am beyond happy that Sam has been showing such faith in his brother and has been so supportive, but the active part of that story only worked while Dean was a demon and Sam had something to actually do. Now he’s been relegated to the background and forced, once again, to tell us everything he can with his expressions and gestures because he’s not being given anything to do or say. I want the writers to continue building up the MoC story and include Sam in some ACTIVE way… like have him research or go off to interview someone who he thinks might help him help Dean. I want him to connect with Cas or the other angels about it, even try and talk with Metatron maybe. I want the brothers to argue about what to do…. like in season 3 when Sam was actively participating in saving Dean from Hell.
I thought the episode was okay. I liked Rowena, and I thought it was interesting that Hannah chose to let her vessel go, although I found it somewhat abrupt, and I liked her so I’m going to miss her.
I didn’t think the episode got really good until the end. I like Cole and I really hope that’s not the last we see of him. It seems to me that he’d start researching to find out what happened to his father, especially since Dean didn’t know what he was. He has excellent chemistry with the boys. I kind of wish that Dean had said something about Cole torturing his brother, but I really loved Dean’s line about his family’s love pulling him back. I’m so glad Sam got to hear that, but I do hope they talk a little bit more in the coming episodes. Like last week, Sam just let Dean’s obvious lie about what he said to Cole go, which is a little frustrating, but I hope it means they’re building to something.
I don’t necessarily think Sam is getting shortchanged in the storyline department, but only because we’re actually seeing him be part of the action and not getting knocked out every other episode. He’s getting to be the kickass hunter that he is and I’m digging that.
I have to admit that I was too stupid to figure out that Rowena had a connection to Crowley until the end. It didn’t actually hit me until the demon started talking to him about torturing her that I thought, oh crap, he’s going to know her. Duh. Anyway, I think that story has a lot of potential, so I hope they do it well. I can see it causing some real problems for Sam and Dean that Crowley won’t want them killing his Mother, much less having a witch at his disposal.
I enjoyed the episode although it covered a lot of ground in a short time. I’m enjoying Sam and Dean working together again and having each other’s backs. I thought last week’s episode with the over kill of the shapeshifter was a return of the MOC but Dean seemed very much in control this week and I was glad to see he called in Sam when he realized his date was a demon deal plan.
Sorry to see Hannah go but at least it was in a good way. I’m not sure how I feel about the upcoming Claire storyline. I prefer Cas when he is with Sam and Dean.
Rowena doesn’t seem very motherly. Lol. More like a thorn in Crowley’s side
I enjoyed this one a lot, particularly how Hannah’s choice and the way it was handled. And I adored the Cole/Dean/Sam scene. I love the running theme of family through all the storylines – even Crowley/Rowena! I wouldn’t mind seeing Cole again, but I’m happy that he was willing to give up revenge because his family needed him “whole.” Certainly Sam knows that better than anyone. I’m Loving Sam’s role this season. He is right beside Dean, where he belongs. I hope it stays that way.
Again another great episode! I feel like they outdo themselves every time! I thought Robert Berens’ writing was exceptional. Hannah’s story was great, I liked how she realised that she’s doing more bad than good by posessing Caroline – the acting was subtle, the monologue really well written, and I liked that the show is at least (or at last!) somehow addressing the consequences of possession (because let’s face it, even angelic possession is possession!). And it acted as a catalyst for Cas’ decision to look for Jimmy’s family (that should be interesting!).
The scene with the boys and Cole was just perfect. I do think that Dean meant what he said, I think he really believes that he is beyond saving – and Sam was heartbroken by it. But Sam won’t let that stand, because he won’t give up on his brother!
Probably my least favorite episode of the season. Not that it wasn’t good, just didn’t grab me. I will say that I LOVED the scene between Dean and Cole and am sad to see that character gone so early in the season. I was hoping he’d be a problem for the boys in the way that Gordon was years go, for more than a couple eps. But, at least he got to live. That’s a big deal in SPN, LOL!. Maybe we’ll see him again.
Hanna was boring me, so I’m not sad to see her go. I am pleased that she got a nice farewell though and her vessel lived to return to her life. My hope for the angel deal though is that Cas ends up doing more than just driving around and looking sad. After such a great angel storyline last year, it seems to be the only true weak point for me so far in Season 10. I miss Metatron. 🙂
Very interested to see how the Crowley and ‘mother’ deal plays out. I didn’t see that coming. Nice little twist there, because i kept wondering why was Crowley in the episode at all…then the end. Ha!
Would have liked to see more of the boys, but this episode did get some things done and clearly set some things up. As a whole, I am totally enjoying Season 10 so far!
Well I will have to say this was my least favorite of the episodes this season. It is disappointing because for the most part I have enjoyed Robert Berens scripts. I’m not a fan of witches and it sounds like they are going to be the dominate story going forward into the bulk of the season. Rowena didn’t exactly give me the vapors so I’m hoping she gets more sinister as the season goes on. This can’t be the end of Cole. If so what was the point? I would have liked even a small scene with Sam and Cole. Like maybe “hey I’m sorry I beat the crap out of you” or “thank you for trying to save my life while I was beating the crap out of you” anything at all even a small glance his direction. The big shocking reveal of Rowena being Crowley’s mother was pretty much a foregone conclusion when they were casting a Scottish actress for the role of a witch.
I did love the dating app scene. I love that the brothers are acting like brothers. Hannah got a fitting end. So was the point of her story that Castiel is now realizing that he has destroyed a human life while on his mission from God? Enter Claire?
So are we going to see what else DD was up to? Dean is carrying more guilt than usual it seems.
Maybe after a re watch I will have a different opinion but right now–A+ for brother banter….C- for the rest.
So Dean has another app to go with the translation app he bought in S8. He’s turning in to a regular techno-geek like his little brother 😀
So far his apps haven’t been very helpful….:) Although I guess his dating app did lead them to their current predicament.
Ok liked it much better on re watch (and after watching an interview on AfterBuzz with Travis and Ruth). So A+ for the brothers and B+ for the rest. It is just so much better without commercials.
I didn’t feel like I really learnt something new about Dean when Dean talked to Cole. Thus, the scene didn’t have an emotional impact on me.
I don’t think that Sam had a revelation about Dean either. I would have found Dean’s speech more satisfying if it had at least moved the characters forward. Instead, Sam fell silent again even though Dean is making the same mistakes again i.e. Dean thinks he has gone so far that he doesn’t get to come back and he is shutting Sam out.
I guess a positive thing about the speech is that Dean gave more verbal confirmation that he truly values what Sam had done for him even though Sam had had to go really far to find Dean and then cure him.
Dean referred to Sam indirectly but he used the word “love”. That might be a bigger deal to Sam than Dean would think. After all, the last time Sam heard Dean talk about their love, Dean had wanted to hurt Sam because he felt that Sam hadn’t been there for him. (8.01 [i] We Need to Talk About Kevin[/i]) [i] “After you looked for me. Did you look for me, Sam? Good. That’s good. Now, we – we… always told each other not to look for each other. That’s smart. Good for you. Of course, we always ignored that because of our deep, abiding love for each another, but not this time, right, Sammy?” [/i]
I think that the writers could have done something a little different with Cole’s character. But I guess they were staying true to Dean being someone who others connect with. Dean really is a guy’s guy.
I think it’ll be interesting to find out how much Rowena had shaped Crowley’s personality. Crowley isn’t defined by being a demon. I wonder if we’ll find out more about Crowley’s true nature because Rowena doesn’t have any respect for demons.
In a way, Hannah made Castiel look bad. It didn’t take Hannah all that long to feel empathy for the vessel she was possessing. Even Gadreel had felt conflicted:
[b] 9.10 Road Trip [/b]
[i] Abner: We are friends. And the fall, it’s our second chance. We can forget our old hates, who we were.
Gadreel: It’s not that easy.
Abner: Yes, it is. Look at me. I’m happy.
Gadreel: And your vessel — is he happy? [/i]
Yet Castiel never gave any indication that he thought about Jimmy or Jimmy’s daughter before Hannah started to question things. In fact, Castiel had acted like the body belonged to him.
In cas’s defense, jimmy ceded his dying vessel over to cas in rapture. Jimmy was fatally shot and cas was in Claire. Jimmy begged cas to let Claire go and demanded cas take him instead. Cas warned jimmy that it would be painful and he would never die or grow old. Cas basically told jimmy that once allowed in he would stay indefinitely and jimmy said yes. Jimmy gave himself to cas with total consent knowing the condition. Jimmy is cas’s permanent vessel. His family would have lost jimmy anyway because he was dying.. At this point I don’t think cas was obligated to really care. This was in s4 before cas ever became human.
I think Jimmy was basically blackmailed into saying yes. I think he would have much rather died than let Castiel possess him again but he wanted to spare his daughter from having to endure similar horrors that he had had to endure. Of course Castiel wasn’t in a position to truly empathize with Jimmy or Claire in season four but he has lived among humans for years now. Angels like Hannah and Gadreel were much quicker to question whether they had the right to have a vessel. I think that put Castiel in a really unflattering light.
You know it also calls into question the fact that Castiel had taken the “yes” of a 10 year old Claire as suitable consent to possess her. I’ve always thought that this was incredibly shady; she was 10, her father Jimmy was shot and dying, how was she even capable of giving informed consent at that age and in those circumstances? I think Cas has been more like his brothers Michael, Uriel and Raphael in the vessel department; not giving them much consideration or care for the quality of their life. And he’s not the only one, we’ve seen several instances of angels who have possessed children. If Cas’s story is about learning the importance of the life of his vessel and to become a crusader for their rights I would be completely satisfied with that. Cas has learned a lot in his years with the Winchesters, and I think it’s time that he learn this too; it’s pretty hard for him to say that he’s learned to love and respect humans and have him still have so little concern for his vessel Jimmy. I’d like to see this lesson intersect with Sam and Dean as well and for Dean to learn just a little about what he put Sam through with the forced possession.
I thought that it was pretty awkward that the only one Sam could talk to about his experience of having been possessed by Gadreel was another angel who had possessed his vessel under very dubious circumstances. I don’t think that Cas was capable of truly empathizing with what Sam had been through because he would have had to take a hard look at his own actions first.
Maybe Castiel has felt guilty about what he has done to Jimmy so he has tried to ignore the whole issue. Claire ended up being left high and dry.
Maybe Castiel said, [i] “And it [taking Jimmy from his family] was difficult, but necessary. The mission comes first – always,” [/i] also because he feels guilty about not wanting to give up his vessel. He likes being around the Winchesters and he might like the feelings that he gets from possessing a human body.
[quote] I think Cas has been more like his brothers Michael, Uriel and Raphael in the vessel department; not giving them much consideration or care for the quality of their life. [/quote]
[b] 9.10 Road Trip [/b]
[i] Gadreel: If it makes you feel better, I have Sam locked away in a dream. As far as he knows, the two of you are working a case right now — something with ghouls and cheerleaders. [/i]
Does that work only when the human isn’t aware that he has been possessed?
I think it’s appropriate that Dean was the one who got through to Cole. Cole had targeted Dean specifically and they have certain things in common like both have tortured others and enjoyed it. I suspected right from the start that Cole will be yet another character who Dean wins over. When is Sam’s turn? 😀
If Cole comes back, they’ll have to work on making him different enough from Benny.
Maybe one of the reasons why Castiel hadn’t addressed the issues of angelic possession is that Castiel likes being an angel but at the same time feeling more human because he is possessing someone.
Because of spoilers, I knew to suspect that Sam wouldn’t have much of a role. After seeing the episode, I think that small changes to the script could have given more depth to Sam’s character. Now Sam was around just because Sam and Dean are a packaged deal.
For me this was a slightly strange episode. It almost seemed like two different episodes in one with the tone of the first half being quite different from the tone of the second half. I found the first half to be a bit confusing and jumbled and also a little cartoonish. They’ve been doing that a lot in the past few years… taking an overtly comic route with the episodes that makes them somewhat clownish in tone. I hate that because it undermines the sincerity of the world that they’ve created. In another thread st50 said the following:
[quote]The writers/showrunners no longer believe in the Supernatural world they have created. Kripke and company wrote about a world that they believed in. They didn’t play it with a wink to the audience. They insisted it be accepted as a possibility… just drawing back the curtain to show us what was “really” there.
I don’t think Carver and company are doing that anymore. They’re playing in a make-believe world. Instead of sympathetic, REAL characters: creepy kids, sympathetic families, even crazy nerds (mandroids anyone?) they have mined from books (Dorothy and the wicked witch) and now games/movies (Clue). [/quote]
I not only agree with the comment as a whole, but feel that the first half of the episode was a prime example of what st50 was saying. The situation with the prostitutes and the demons felt unreal, fantastical and comically buffoonish. It reminded me (again) of the tongue-in-cheek and cheesy aspects of a show like Charmed; it’s not written to be taken seriously and I had a hard time taking Roweena seriously at the start of this episode. I didn’t particularly like her in her first scene, thought she over acted and was not convincing or menacing. Thankfully she was much better realized in the second half of the episode and I found myself warming up to the potential of her character; I think she and Crowley could do some damage together.
The second half of the episode seemed to settle down into a much better and more serious and emotional story and carried a nice emotional punch. I was surprised by the sudden turn in the Hannah story; I was under the impression that she was there to learn something, and she did, but she was only learning things about being human as a way to further Cas’s story. I loved that she acknowledged what her presence was doing to her vessel and how it felt wrong even though the vessel gave her permission for Hannah to enter her to begin with. I loved that Hannah acknowledged that she was feeling what her vessel was feeling and that it affected her. I think it made Cas consider what Jimmy is and has been feeling. It’s about time they have dealt with poor old Jimmy Novack. It even makes me more curious about Claire and think that Cas looking her up deliberately is so much more interesting than having her suddenly show up for seemingly no reason.
I agree also that the Cole story was rather hastily summed up, but the scene between he and Dean and then later Sam was one of the most emotional and heart rending we’ve seen in a while. I was so glad to hear Dean say that love pulled him back from the brink and that Sam got to hear him say it. So often Dean will say something like that to another character and Sam almost never gets to hear it…. and he SO needs to. And I was sad to hear Dean say that he’s pretty much written himself off. Sam didn’t seem pleased to hear that either… the lingering shot on him at the end of the episode was heartbreaking. I only hope that Sam has something more relevant to do in the second half of this season than be the “good and dutiful brother.” Although I am happy to see it, it’s not much of a story line. I mean how much time can they spend on showing Sam worrying? Where is his active involvement, his initiative? Currently there isn’t any. The story for Sam as it currently stands consists of lingering looks and unvoiced worry; it’s pretty passive. They’ve shown as much as they can already and since Sam doesn’t talk to anyone other than Dean and Dean is still shutting him down and freezing him out he pretty much can’t voice his concern or discuss it with anyone and he can’t really move forward or be pro-active… so as it stands it’s not much of a story and it’s pretty much all visual at this point. That’s not enough involvement for a lead character IMO. I don’t mind if Sam’s story is his desire to be a good brother and to save Dean, but he needs to DO something, have a plan, move forward and have some kind of focus for his involvement to be even remotely relevant.
For me this was a slightly strange episode. It almost seemed like two different episodes in one with the tone of the first half being quite different from the tone of the second half. I found the first half to be a bit confusing and jumbled and also a little cartoonish. They’ve been doing that a lot in the past few years… taking an overtly comic route with the episodes that makes them somewhat clownish in tone. I hate that because it undermines the sincerity of the world that they’ve created. In another thread st50 said the following:
[quote]The writers/showrunners no longer believe in the Supernatural world they have created. Kripke and company wrote about a world that they believed in. They didn’t play it with a wink to the audience. They insisted it be accepted as a possibility… just drawing back the curtain to show us what was “really” there.
I don’t think Carver and company are doing that anymore. They’re playing in a make-believe world. Instead of sympathetic, REAL characters: creepy kids, sympathetic families, even crazy nerds (mandroids anyone?) they have mined from books (Dorothy and the wicked witch) and now games/movies (Clue). [/quote]
I not only agree with the comment as a whole, but feel that the first half of the episode was a prime example of what st50 was saying. The situation with the prostitutes and the demons felt unreal, fantastical and comically buffoonish. It reminded me (again) of the tongue-in-cheek and cheesy aspects of a show like Charmed; it’s not written to be taken seriously and I had a hard time taking Roweena seriously at the start of this episode. I didn’t particularly like her in her first scene, thought she over acted and was not convincing or menacing. Thankfully she was much better realized in the second half of the episode and I found myself warming up to the potential of her character; I think she and Crowley could do some damage together.
The second half of the episode seemed to settle down into a much better and more serious and emotional story and carried a nice emotional punch. I was surprised by the sudden turn in the Hannah story; I was under the impression that she was there to learn something, and she did, but she was only learning things about being human as a way to further Cas’s story. I loved that she acknowledged what her presence was doing to her vessel and how it felt wrong even though the vessel gave her permission for Hannah to enter her to begin with. I loved that Hannah acknowledged that she was feeling what her vessel was feeling and that it affected her. I think it made Cas consider what Jimmy is and has been feeling. It’s about time they have dealt with poor old Jimmy Novack. It even makes me more curious about Claire and think that Cas looking her up deliberately is so much more interesting than having her suddenly show up for seemingly no reason.
I agree also that the Cole story was rather hastily summed up, but the scene between he and Dean and then later Sam was one of the most emotional and heart rending we’ve seen in a while. I was so glad to hear Dean say that love pulled him back from the brink and that Sam got to hear him say it. So often Dean will say something like that to another character and Sam almost never gets to hear it…. and he SO needs to. And I was sad to hear Dean say that he’s pretty much written himself off. Sam didn’t seem pleased to hear that either… the lingering shot on him at the end of the episode was heartbreaking. I only hope that Sam has something more relevant to do in the second half of this season than be the “good and dutiful brother.” Although I am happy to see it, it’s not much of a story line. I mean how much time can they spend on showing Sam worrying? Where is his active involvement, his initiative? Currently there isn’t any. The story for Sam as it currently stands consists of lingering looks and unvoiced worry; it’s pretty passive. They’ve shown as much as they can already and since Sam doesn’t talk to anyone other than Dean and Dean is still shutting him down and freezing him out he pretty much can’t voice his concern or discuss it with anyone and he can’t really move forward or be pro-active… so as it stands it’s not much of a story and it’s pretty much all visual at this point. That’s not enough involvement for a lead character IMO. I don’t mind if Sam’s story is his desire to be a good brother and to save Dean, but he needs to DO something, have a plan, move forward and have some kind of focus for his involvement to be even remotely relevant.
e,
I have no doubt sam will do plenty. what I’ve learned these past three years since carver took over is that he tells his story at his own damn pace and i’m ok with that.:D I think the way dean’s reacting is typical dean and it would be a little out of character for dean to just do a total 360 and all of a sudden not only come face to face with what’s happening but be totally open and forthright about it with sam….come on…remember what show you’re watching:p:D….
the pacing actually makes sense to me as do both boy’s reactions. the boys don’t behave according to how and when we want them to, the boys operate on Winchester time and in typical Winchester fashion.:D dean only just got cured. the boys only just got back to working cases and it is dean’s first kill since he was changed back to human dean. sam’s concern is normal and expected as was dean’s reaction to sam’s concern. dean may not be able to sweep things under the rug as the moc won’t allow for that, but he’s still going to automatically respond as he usually does when he doesn’t want to deal with things or can’t. we’re two eps away from the midseason finale, and according to the synopsis…well let’s just say things begin to move along…
I think the pacing this season has been awesome. I haven’t felt for one second like i’m waiting on sam and dean. dean first has to realize that he’s still affected by the moc….that’s something he becomes aware of in ask jeeves. so from the time he kills Olivia to the time he confronts cole, dean is coming to terms with what is happening to him as he states what he believes to cole ( and don’t think he didn’t choose his words carefully, he wasn’t only talking to cole….he saw sam there….he was talking to his brother). when sam rightfully and clearly became frightened, dean tried to gloss it over. of course it didn’t work and now sam knows where dean’s head space is at…..i’m sure next week we’ll get a little more, which will lead up to the midseason finale…..
I have no doubt that sam will play a significant role and “do”…..do whatever it takes to ensure dean gets rid of that moc….I also have no doubt that we’ll most likely get fbs showing us what sam did while finding dean and the boys coming to terms with that as well. carver said this was a personal journey for the characters…..it’s not a mad race to the finish line.
what I’ve always loved about this show is that it takes its time telling a story, it doesn’t rush through it….it’s part of what makes the show feel real….
jmho of course. ;):)
It has already been confirmed by Jared that there are no more flashbacks of what Sam did to save Dean.
That is interesting because I think Carver said they were going to be exploring Sam’s dark road in the second half of the season. Without flashbacks I wonder how they will tell that story. However it was Carver and he is the master of making WTH kind of comments.
Wasn’t it just the case that, when asked, it wasn’t in any of the scripts he had read so far? Not to say it won’t happen in the second half. Although, given the crappy way they handled his angelic possession arc, it wouldn’t surprise me if they did drop it.
I thought that was what Jared said a few conventions ago. They should be a little past the half way point right now. Then I think they were only 8 or 9 episodes in when he made that comment. Could be wrong though. They tend to go with the story that hits them at the moment…
These quotes are from an interview that was published on Nov 18, 2014:
[quote] [b] ACKLES: [/b] We could’ve explored more of what Sam went through too because a lot of that is being implied and not seen, which will come back in the future, and I think maybe we’ll get to see some of that in flashbacks. I hope so.
[b] We got a glimpse at how dark Sam went to save Dean. Is there more where that came from? [/b]
[b] PADALECKI: [/b] There is a little bit more. It’s more hinted towards than necessarily seen.
[b] ACKLES: [/b] We might get some flashbacks and stuff in the future.
[b] PADALECKI: [/b] And we also see it kind of manifested in the way Sam behaves. He knows that he crossed these boundaries that he swore he’d never cross. These people were humans. And so Sam has done whatever it took to monsters but to do it to a human being and to a human soul I think has put this kind of resolution inside of Sam where he knows where he’s gone and he doesn’t want to go there again. [/quote]
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/18/supernatural-jared-padalecki-jensen-ackles-season-10/
Huh… “implied and not seen” par for the course for Sam over the past 3 years. I am not holding my breath for any significant change in the future. 🙁
Sam does not seem to have a proper storyline anymore. I don’t think Sam has the role Dean used to play when his brother was not doing well. Sam is pretty quiet.
However, I’d much rather not see more of what Sam did to find Dean than have the show continue with “Who is the true monster?” crap. I doubt that people having to question Sam’s morals and ethics would do the character much good.
ETA
Showing the audience via flashbacks what Sam went through to find Dean could be a great way for the show to give more insight into Sam. Sam and Dean being willing to go really far to save each other is an essential part of the show and the characters doing dark things can make them more complex. However, I dislike the way Carver talked about Sam. I don’t trust that these writers have the ability to make the audience wonder whether Sam is a monster without doing irreparable damage to the character.
Oh.. I thought i’d heard that we were going to get more info on this?
For me this was a slightly strange episode. It almost seemed like two different episodes in one with the tone of the first half being quite different from the tone of the second half. I found the first half to be a bit confusing and jumbled and also a little cartoonish. They’ve been doing that a lot in the past few years… taking an overtly comic route with the episodes that makes them somewhat clownish in tone. I hate that because it undermines the sincerity of the world that they’ve created. In another thread st50 said the following:
[quote]The writers/showrunners no longer believe in the Supernatural world they have created. Kripke and company wrote about a world that they believed in. They didn’t play it with a wink to the audience. They insisted it be accepted as a possibility… just drawing back the curtain to show us what was “really” there.
I don’t think Carver and company are doing that anymore. They’re playing in a make-believe world. Instead of sympathetic, REAL characters: creepy kids, sympathetic families, even crazy nerds (mandroids anyone?) they have mined from books (Dorothy and the wicked witch) and now games/movies (Clue). [/quote]
I not only agree with the comment as a whole, but feel that the first half of the episode was a prime example of what st50 was saying. The situation with the prostitutes and the demons felt unreal, fantastical and comically buffoonish. It reminded me (again) of the tongue-in-cheek and cheesy aspects of a show like Charmed; it’s not written to be taken seriously and I had a hard time taking Roweena seriously at the start of this episode. I didn’t particularly like her in her first scene, thought she over acted and was not convincing or menacing. Thankfully she was much better realized in the second half of the episode and I found myself warming up to the potential of her character; I think she and Crowley could do some damage together.
The second half of the episode seemed to settle down into a much better and more serious and emotional story and carried a nice emotional punch. I was surprised by the sudden turn in the Hannah story; I was under the impression that she was there to learn something, and she did, but she was only learning things about being human as a way to further Cas’s story. I loved that she acknowledged what her presence was doing to her vessel and how it felt wrong even though the vessel gave her permission for Hannah to enter her to begin with. I loved that Hannah acknowledged that she was feeling what her vessel was feeling and that it affected her. I think it made Cas consider what Jimmy is and has been feeling. It’s about time they have dealt with poor old Jimmy Novack. It even makes me more curious about Claire and think that Cas looking her up deliberately is so much more interesting than having her suddenly show up for seemingly no reason.
I agree also that the Cole story was rather hastily summed up, but the scene between he and Dean and then later Sam was one of the most emotional and heart rending we’ve seen in a while. I was so glad to hear Dean say that love pulled him back from the brink and that Sam got to hear him say it. So often Dean will say something like that to another character and Sam almost never gets to hear it…. and he SO needs to. And I was sad to hear Dean say that he’s pretty much written himself off. Sam didn’t seem pleased to hear that either… the lingering shot on him at the end of the episode was heartbreaking. I only hope that Sam has something more relevant to do in the second half of this season than be the “good and dutiful brother.” Although I am happy to see it, it’s not much of a story line. I mean how much time can they spend on showing Sam worrying? Where is his active involvement, his initiative? Currently there isn’t any. The story for Sam as it currently stands consists of lingering looks and unvoiced worry; it’s pretty passive. They’ve shown as much as they can already and since Sam doesn’t talk to anyone other than Dean and Dean is still shutting him down and freezing him out he pretty much can’t voice his concern or discuss it with anyone and he can’t really move forward or be pro-active… so as it stands it’s not much of a story and it’s pretty much all visual at this point. That’s not enough involvement for a lead character IMO. I don’t mind if Sam’s story is his desire to be a good brother and to save Dean, but he needs to DO something, have a plan, move forward and have some kind of focus for his involvement to be even remotely relevant.
Opps! Had a hard time posting and hit that submit button a few times!! Heh. Sorry.
😀
I do agree with much of what you (and st50) say. I thought Rowena bordered on the camp. I missed some of the episode so I probably shouldn’t judge it till I’ve seen it in it’s entirety. I did see the Cole/Dean scene, thought it was very good, and was glad Sam showed up be a part of it and hear what Dean said about the love. All in all, this is a much more satisfying season to me than the last two.
Yeah. I think st50 really hit the nail on the head with her theory about the lack of commitment to the supernatural world. Kripke and Co really played it off like what Sam and Dean were doing was real, a possibility that the average person might see if their luck was really bad. Now it’s just a fantasy that we see on TV without that idea that any of this might actually be happening if we just look in the right places. I really miss that seriousness and commitment to the possibility of Sam and Dean’s world and I think that the current writers are underestimating what we will believe as being real. If we could accept the apocalypse as a possibility then there isn’t much we wouldn’t accept if the tone was right; but too much of what we have been seeing lately is campy silliness, telling us in no uncertain terms that what we are seeing is NOT real.
Then, later on in the ep I started to warm up to her more; she started to seem like more of an actual person. I wonder if she and Crowley will work out their differences and wind up on the same team. I think the two of them could be a good big bad pair this season.
I’m really starting to feel more and more like the theme of this season is simply about family. Sam and Dean are dealing with the effect the MOC and Dean becoming a demon has had on their family, such as it is. Cole wanted revenge on Dean for killing his father, and in this episode, Sam and Dean convince him to go back to [i]his[/i] family, because the effect that killing Dean might have on him isn’t worth it, not when he has a wife and kid waiting at home. Hannah leaves her vessel because she couldn’t stand how it was affecting Caroline’s life, and Cas is now looking Jimmy Novak up, who we know of course has a daughter, Claire. [i]Ask Jeeves[/i] had a family dealing with the death of a loved one, if you could call it that in their definition of family, but all the same. In [i]Paper Moon[/i], Kate was dealing with the consequences of turning her sister into a werewolf. Crowley has now inadvertently stumbled upon his mother. [i]Fan Fiction[/i] had family, both ours and the Winchesters’, written all over it.
I absolutely agree that the scene with Cole had some of the best emotional dialogue we’ve seen in a while. They certainly drew me in quite effectively. It’s horrible that Dean is facing that same darkness he’s faced before, that he’s been pushed back into that feeling that he’s past saving, and it seems like poor Sam has no idea of how to go about fixing that. I know Dean’s exhibiting quite typical behaviour by trying to avoid the topic, but I don’t know how he thinks he can keep doing it, especially after saying the kinds of things he said to Cole right in front of Sam. Does he honestly think Sam’s just going to let it slide, and accept it? I find myself kind of hoping we’re headed for a more epic “Sam saves Dean” (probably more from himself than anything else if the last couple episodes are anything to go by)since the cure for Demon!Dean ended up being a bit of an anti-climax, particularly once the MOC, inevitably, starts causing real problems for them again.
I like that they’re tackling the effect the angels have had on the lives’ of their vessels, particularly in Castiel’s case, since Jimmy’s been gone a long time. I’m assuming though that Jimmy can’t possibly still be alive in there somewhere like Caroline was. It seems kind of awful that he might have been in there somewhere all this time. If he is though, the guy’s got to be some kind of wreck! He already was last time, and that was more than five years ago.
Interested to see what will come of Crowley’s little family reunion. It didn’t seem like Rowena knew who he was, even though he quite obviously knew her, or was I just imagining that?
I wouldn’t think she’d recognize him – her son is Fergus McLeod and he’s wearing a meat suit.
I did assume as much that she wouldn’t have/didn’t recognize him in his meat suit, though the thought did briefly cross my mind that she’s a witch who knows how to turn demons into sludge, so…
I’m not at all sure that Jimmy is dead; dormant maybe or even comatose, but not dead. I have been under the impression that angels can only inhabit live vessels. This has never been stated outright on the show in so many words but it has been insinuated in various ways over the years. Angels require their vessels to give their permission to be inhabited. If the vessels could be dead then there would be no reason to a) ask for permission in the first place or b) take a live one and avoid completely the moral dilemma that we are getting into now, which is the detrimental effects of being an angel vessel even when you have given your consent. Also we have seen multiple times over the years an angel curing their vessel; we’ve seen it several times with Cas curing Jimmy, most notably in The Rapture, and again more lately with Gadreel healing Sam. If an angel could inhabit a dead body then why not just take Sam over, let him die and then not worry about how the vessel is effected? Gadreel spent considerable time and effort healing Sam of injuries that nothing on this earth could cure through even the best modern medicine and he did so even though it delayed his own healing. Why bother if he could have just highjacked Sam’s dead body? No, I am currently working under the supposition that angels need to inhabit a living human and are tapped into the power of that humans soul to sustain both themselves and their vessel. Demons don’t ask for permission. They take the vessel by force and have been known to animate dead bodies; its one of the things that separates the way they operate with their vessels from the way angels do. So, until we hear definitively either way, I am sticking to my theory that angel vessels must be living and in good physical health which is why angels spend considerable time and effort maintaining and healing them. The vessels mental healthy has not always been a consideration; remember the drooling mess that Raphael left his vessel in? Perfectly healthy and unable to function in society at all. Maybe that’s where this is going with Cas… to him ultimately giving up his vessel and him encouraging other angels to do so as well? I’m not sure where a story like that would leave Misha though, but a Cas returning to heaven in angel form for the greater good of angels and humans would be a good storyline.
[b] 4.20 The Rapture [/b]
[i] Castiel: Of course we keep our promises. Of course you have our gratitude. You served us well. Your work is done. It’s time to go home now. Your real home. You’ll rest forever in the fields of the Lord. Rest now, Jimmy.
Castiel: I wanna make sure you understand. You won’t die or age. If this last year was painful for you, picture a hundred, a thousand more like it. [/i]
I think angels possess vessels that have a soul inside because angels themselves don’t have souls. A human soul is very valuable.
[b] 5.12 Swap Meat [/b]
[i] Nora/Demon: You mean to tell me you’ve got Dean Winchester and Sam Winchester’s meat suit? An empty vessel just waiting to be filled. And you’re handing them both over to me? [/i]
However, it seems that angels could possess vessels that don’t have someone inside.
[b] 6.22 The Man Who Knew Too Much [/b]
[i] Castiel: You can’t imagine what it’s like. They’re all inside me. Millions upon millions of souls. [/i]
Could Castiel’s vessel be so strong without Jimmy’s soul?
[b] 8.23 Sacrifice [/b]
[i] Metatron: — — And what I’m taking from you now — your essence, your Grace — — And now something wonderful is going to happen, for me and for you. I want you to live this new life to the fullest. Find a wife. Make babies. And when you die and your soul comes to Heaven, find me. Tell me your story. [/i]
Did Castiel gain a soul after Metatron cut Castiel’s grace out?
Castiel’s vessel (Jimmy) would be strong enough to contain two souls at the same time.
[b] 9.10 Road Trip [/b]
[i] Dean: Good. Good. That’s, uh… So, what, you just change the batteries out, power back up? It’s that easy?
Castiel: It wasn’t easy, but I didn’t have a choice.
Cecily: So captain sexy out there totally cuts another angel’s throat, yoinks his Grace, and now? He’s got his mojo back — minus the broken wings. [/i]
Could any human have angelic powers if they swallowed an angel’s grace? Or was Castiel fundamentally different from other humans? If Castiel had a soul when he didn’t have his grace, what happened to the soul after Castiel stole another angel’s grace?
[quote]Nora/Demon: You mean to tell me you’ve got Dean Winchester and Sam Winchester’s meat suit? An empty vessel just waiting to be filled. And you’re handing them both over to me?
However, it seems that angels could possess vessels that don’t have someone inside.
[/quote]
But Sam’s meat suit DID have someone inside, Gary was inside and perfectly capable of giving Lucifer permission to take him. But would Lucifer have been satisfied with Gary in Sam’s body or was he more interested in Sam’s soul? Isn’t that where the power comes from? I am still convinced that angels cannot take a human vessel unless that vessel is alive and gives permission. Castiel was pretty clear to when he said to Jimmy, you will never age and you will never die. Humans who carry angels become immortal it seems.
[quote] But Sam’s meat suit DID have someone inside, Gary was inside and perfectly capable of giving Lucifer permission to take him. [/quote]
Yes, Nora said to Gary, “Oh, but he’s [Lucifer’s] gonna want to meet you. Relax. It’ll be easy. He’s just gonna ask you one little question, and all you got to do is say “yes”. And then, you get your reward.”
I also have issues with that episode. I think Lucifer wanted Sam and not just an empty vessel even though it had been “made for him”. Lucifer could feed off of Sam’s emotions.
Castiel’s words to Jimmy in 4.20 [i] The Rapture [/i] indicate that Castiel expected that Jimmy’s awareness of being possessed would remain despite the passage of time. However, Castiel could not have foreseen what he and his vessel (Jimmy) ended up being put through.
I think Jimmy has “burned out” but his soul has not gone to Heaven. If that’s the case, Castiel hasn’t had to deal with Jimmy’s consciousness for some time but he has still been able to benefit from “becoming one” with a human. (Angels don’t have souls.)
If Jimmy’s soul is gone, it means that a vessel’s strength does not depend on the soul.
Hael wanted to possess Castiel in 9.01 [i] I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here[/i]. Did she intend to possess Castiel because Castiel had a soul (briefly?) and he had secured a very strong vessel for himself?
In 9.10 [i] Road Trip[/i], Castiel said, [i] “But I can’t possess a vessel without permission.” [/i] However, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he would not be able to continue possessing a vessel after the soul has moved on.
If angels can possess empty vessels, it casts a dark shadow over those angels who haven’t done so. On the other hand, it doesn’t seem very likely that one could find an unoccupied human body that would be strong enough to contain an angel.
Someone like Cas, who is on a mission, might be able to justify possessing Jimmy because he needs a vessel that belongs to a specific bloodline.
Rambly stream of thought coming up. Feel free to tell me if I’m talking crap.
What my line of thinking is, is if Jimmy is still around in some capacity, either conscious or unconscious/dormant, then what kind of effect might Castiel’s possession have had on him over the past few seasons? Cas has been blown up, sent to Purgatory, been possessed by Leviathan, gone crazy, lost his grace, become human. If Jimmy’s still around or aware in some capacity, I could only imagine the kind of effect that might have had on him, surely he could only be a drooling mess like Raphael’s vessel by now? Also, that paints Cas in rather a bad light too, if Jimmy is aware or Cas has felt his presence in a way similar to what Hannah was feeling with Caroline, because it means he’s been completely disregarding the effect on Jimmy for [i]years[/i], unless he is dormant in some way and has no clue what’s been going on. Not only that, but what’s supposed to become of Cas (and Jimmy, really) if he leaves his vessel and gives Jimmy his life back now, after all this time?
As for the consent thing, I’m not sure it’s ever (unless I’m mis-remembering) been made clear how long a “yes” lasts, i.e. if a vessel says yes once, does that mean the angel has a free pass to possess or re-possess them as necessary, or do they have to say yes every time? What happened to Jimmy/Jimmy’s body while Cas was spending a year as a “multi-dimensional wavelength of celestial intent” between seasons 5 & 6? Was Jimmy still around, waiting to say yes when Cas was ready to return to Earth? If I was Jimmy, I’m not sure I would say yes again if given the chance. Same thing with Gadreel. When he was expelled from Sam, he returned to his original vessel. Did that guy have to say yes again, or could Gadreel re-possess him because he’d said yes once already? Also, we know a demon can possess an empty vessel (Ruby did in season 4), so is it possible that an angel can do so as well, as long as the vessel has already said yes once while they were alive? And also, would God, or whoever it was, when they restored Cas after he was blown up by Lucifer in “Swan Song” restore Jimmy’s soul as well? Also, they kind of acknowledged it in “Fan Fiction” but I don’t think we ever got an answer as to whether Adam (or Adams’ soul) was gone or just dormant when Michael told Dean he wasn’t at home in “Swan Song.”
The whole Gadreel/Sam possession was presented as something of a symbiosis, but we already know that Sam’s vessel is stronger than almost any other since he’s descended from the Michael/Lucifer line. Some vessels are stronger than others (and therefore burn out less fast), and other vessels aren’t made for possession at all. We know the best angelic vessels are ones descended from appropriate bloodlines, so Jimmy is probably is reasonably strong vessel, since he does come from one of those bloodlines. While I don’t believe that an angel has the power to expel a soul from a vessel- otherwise it stands to reason that Gadreel might easily have shoved Sam to the curb the second he had his body- but angels to wear them out and possession can have an effect on a vessel. But is that effect solely on the vessel (which is what turns a person into a “drooling mess” because they’re occupying a body that can no longer function properly), or on the soul of the vessel as well (which IMO is a rather horrifying thought)?
I kind of find myself hoping Jimmy’s soul has moved on somewhere along the line during Cas’ many deaths and transformations, otherwise, poor, poor guy. Says me, anyway.
PaintedWolf,
With Gadreel he got both times permission. When Sam cast the angel out and it returned to the previous vessel he said yes again before Gadreel was let in. So, I would say they need to have the permission again. 🙂
– Lilah
🙂 drooling mess – that was the case with Raphael’s first vessel when Dean and Castiel were looking for Raphael to find out where God was in S5, wasn’t it?
Hi njspnfan, yes. That’s the vessel I was talking about.
Thanks for that bit of info, Lilah, I didn’t actually remember that (I’m finding it hard to remember some of the little things lately-brain’s been a little too full, I guess). So if they do have to say yes each time, then that does make me wonder still about Jimmy’s status, or whether or not an angel can jump into an unoccupied body like demons can, cos Cas has seemed to have hopped in and out of his vessel a couple times already.
I really liked this episode. It is in top 3 for this season at the moment.
[b]So how about that Rowena reveal? What do you think the story is there?[/b]
I guessed it with others a long long while ago. Sometimes spoilers should not be read… *cough* but all the same it was affirmation that she was his mother. There wasn’t much told about the story yet except about the Covenant. It might have something to do with Crowley’s son and space time continuum. We will see. Crowley’s first reaction was stunned so we will see if it is happy/sad/angry reunion later.
[b]Do you think Dean really meant what he said about being beyond saving?[/b]
Dean has been thinking that many many years. Some other characters has said it to his face or just treated like he doesn’t matter. I think that is the bigger edge where Dean needs to get off by himself and with help. If he only could realize he is worthy dammit.
[b]Where does Sam go from here?[/b]
I have loved so much that Sam can be only Sam! That he is not possessed, soulless, addicted etc. That actually both of them are living the life again as brothers. That has been missed. As Sam’s and Dean’s stories are entwined always I see Sam doing the saving people, hunting things the family business with Dean and take care of the MoC when it is the proper time. We will see how it goes. They both mean a lot to one another and Sam has always disliked Dean to think that low about himself. He wishes Dean would see him like he does. Maybe Sam could slam that hope and happy thoughts in Dean’s head?
[quote]SAM: You’ve saved my life over and over. I mean, you sacrifice everything for me. Don’t you think I’d do the same for you? You’re my big brother. There’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you. And I don’t care what it takes, I’m gonna get you out of this. Guess I gotta save your ass for a change.[/quote] 2.22 All Hell Breaks Loose: Part Two
[quote]Sam Winchester: Yeah, because I’ve been following you around my entire life. I mean, I’ve been looking up to you since I was four, Dean. Studying you, trying to be just like my big brother.So, yeah, I know you. Better than anyone else in the entire world. And this is exactly how you act when you’re terrified. And, I mean, I can’t blame you.[/quote] 3.7 Fresh Blood
He has said it before and now he still lives by this. Also he values a lot what Dean thinks about him and that is his Achilles heel. Dean’s is low self worth. They need to work on those issues and I hope both of them will.
What do you think of Castiel’s search for Jimmy? Do you agree with Hannah’s decision?
It can open a lot of new roads the story can take. I loved Hannah’s decision. Even if I adore Castiel I see the angels and demons using human’s as pawns to their own game. It is refreshing to see one of them at least to make the right choice. Maybe Gadreel put that seed to Hannah’s mind. Also now the car sickness and how she acted got finally a reason. Hannah was feeling guilty and the emotions of her vessel.
Hannah’s story was a surprising twist and I am eager to see where everything will go from here. 🙂
– Lilah
I think that almost all of the characters — Dean, Rowena, Cole, Hannah, Castiel, and Crowley — had more to work with in this episode than Sam did. That looks really bad because Sam is supposed to be one of the two main characters on the show. Maybe they could’ve kept the opening scene as is but then Dean would’ve been sucked into working the new case, Sam and Dean would have talked over the phone, and Sam would have arrived in time to hear Dean’s speech to Cole. Now Sam’s few lines weren’t that significant. In my opinion, not being on-screen is preferable to being reduced to a two-dimensional character.
Agreed. I’ve had enough of Sam the pretty wallpaper. Give he boy something to DO!