Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×15 “Thinman”
Warning: If you have not seen tonight’s episode, “Thinman,” then beware spoilers ahead!
Summary: This episode was quite anvilicious, I must admit. But much was saved by the appearance of my favorite Supernatural guest character/stars – ED AND HARRY!!! The Ghostfacers!!! (And they had their theme song in here too….that was comforting even if the episode was not).
The episode opens on what has to be every teenage and young woman’s nightmare – a selfie gone horribly, horribly wrong.
Sam and Dean update: They are still acting like children.
The return of the Ghostfacers promised a fun-filled episode of semi-crack hilarity, right? Yeah, that wasn’t the case. We find they’ve returned as a couple of supernatural author/hunters who are chasing down the “Thinman”, which was a meme from back in 2009. The pair are in cahoots but we find out that Harry wanted a “normal life” with a girl, etc. You see where this is going, right?
The case is found by Dean who starts to go on his own because he doesn’t want to share his toys with the other child, Sam. When they arrive they quickly learn the Ghostfacers are in town and much of the episode is about trying to figure out if the Thinman is real, which it turns out he’s not. Instead the murders are being performed by Comic-Con rejects who like to read conspiracy theory blogs.
There are some nice moments, such as when Sam and Dean reminisce about their childhood – Sam broke his arm and Dean drove him to the ER on the handlebars of his bike. The angst between Ed and Harry was very pointedly a parallel to Sam and Dean – Ed made up the Thinman to keep Harry with him. Well I wonder who were supposed to link that to? <looks up as anvil falls>
There was also some really eye raising commentary on fans and their internet habits. And the break up of Harry and Ed at the end is either foreshadowing or anvilling of Sam and Dean.
I do have to say that the murdering duo kind of reminded me of the guys from The Real Ghostbusters. They were fans and they did some mean cosplay, but this time gay love did not save the world. And for that? I am really sad.
By the way, Dark Dean is ‘acoming. Dean’s rather cold murder of a human was marked….see what I did there?
Speculations and questions for the week:
Will Ed and Harry return and next time, will we get to see their wedding?
As I stated last week, Sam loves Dean. His scream when the cop was about to kill Dean was not an “all business” scream. Sam needs to be honest with himself but I think his realization will be too late to save us from a Dark Dean arc.
So that stabbing? As I stated before and I will again, Dean’s mark of cain is sending him on the fast track to demonhood or its equivalent.
How are you dealing with the anvils in your yard, readers? I’m thinking of decorating mine with lights and artificial flowers.
Meta question: Do you really think, show, that you are going on for the fans and is there a slight resentment there? I can’t tell if it’s meta praise or Gamble-level meta smackdown.
Just some thoughts on the episode. Please share your feelings, theories, and thoughts below.
Thank you for your snark.
I’m too frustrated with show to add anything else.
Thank you for your snark.
I’m too frustrated with show to add anything else.
” Meta question: Do you really think, show, that you are going on for the fans and is there a slight resentment there? I can’t tell if it’s meta praise or Gamble-level meta smackdown. “
I know I sure felt beat down by that comment. Keep going for the fans??
” Meta question: Do you really think, show, that you are going on for the fans and is there a slight resentment there? I can’t tell if it’s meta praise or Gamble-level meta smackdown. “
I know I sure felt beat down by that comment. Keep going for the fans??
Yes Ed lied but Harry made his own decisions regarding his life. He chose to put the Thin Man before his love and another life. He can be mad about being lied to. Although if he has a history of lying to Ed as well his anger might be hypocritical.
I do not think Dean is going demonic. Dark. Stone cold Killer. Think Torture Dean + Purgatory Dean + no grey area regarding what is bad and needs killing versus who/what deserve mercy and empathy. I am reminded of Benny’s comments in CF about how Dean and Elizabeth were links to his list humanity and without them he would be a monster. Family and his heart are what has kept Dean from becoming monstrous. This schism with Sam and mark are a perfect storm. Dean’s going to become a badass killer and his definition of what needs killing will broaden. Also last season Dean was capable of doing hard things-what is another nightmare?- I don’t think he’s suffering second thoughts, guilt or nightmares at the moment.
Episodes like On the Head of a Pin, Point of NO Return, Twihard with a Vengeance, Kill Eve episode, anything in Purgatory; remind us of how badass Dean was and can be. I am thinking this plus 250% 24/7. Scary fun times.
Yes Ed lied but Harry made his own decisions regarding his life. He chose to put the Thin Man before his love and another life. He can be mad about being lied to. Although if he has a history of lying to Ed as well his anger might be hypocritical.
I do not think Dean is going demonic. Dark. Stone cold Killer. Think Torture Dean + Purgatory Dean + no grey area regarding what is bad and needs killing versus who/what deserve mercy and empathy. I am reminded of Benny’s comments in CF about how Dean and Elizabeth were links to his list humanity and without them he would be a monster. Family and his heart are what has kept Dean from becoming monstrous. This schism with Sam and mark are a perfect storm. Dean’s going to become a badass killer and his definition of what needs killing will broaden. Also last season Dean was capable of doing hard things-what is another nightmare?- I don’t think he’s suffering second thoughts, guilt or nightmares at the moment.
Episodes like On the Head of a Pin, Point of NO Return, Twihard with a Vengeance, Kill Eve episode, anything in Purgatory; remind us of how badass Dean was and can be. I am thinking this plus 250% 24/7. Scary fun times.
Well, I liked the episode. I’ve never been a big fan of the Ghostfacers, but this was ok. Had some laughs, and I thought it was an interesting story. And Sam is coming around…
Well, I liked the episode. I’ve never been a big fan of the Ghostfacers, but this was ok. Had some laughs, and I thought it was an interesting story. And Sam is coming around…
Any thing these guys do are miraculous a one of a kind. I believe this was an awesome display of acting skills. I’m just saying.
Any thing these guys do are miraculous a one of a kind. I believe this was an awesome display of acting skills. I’m just saying.
Well I did like Batman and Superman. I could watch that a few more times. 🙂
Well I did like Batman and Superman. I could watch that a few more times. 🙂
Oh man, I did not enjoy this one. First off who didn’t see “victim” in neon letters over the diner manager and “involved” over the busboy. The ridiculously obvious and stupid parallels between the brothers and the Ghostfacers. The writing was so bad in this. The bad guys, just boring. I give this one a D.
Thanks for the spec thread Bookdal. The only speculation I have is that I will most likely avoid. any episode written by Jenny Klein in the future. You don’t need to “keep going” for this fan JK.
Just a small point, I don’t think it was that Dean didn’t want to “share his toys” as much as he felt Sam might not be interested in joining him.
It did have Sam and Dean in it, so it there was that. I liked that they shared a childhood moment. Maybe I will feel differently after some reflection but I don’t think so.
Oh man, I did not enjoy this one. First off who didn’t see “victim” in neon letters over the diner manager and “involved” over the busboy. The ridiculously obvious and stupid parallels between the brothers and the Ghostfacers. The writing was so bad in this. The bad guys, just boring. I give this one a D.
Thanks for the spec thread Bookdal. The only speculation I have is that I will most likely avoid. any episode written by Jenny Klein in the future. You don’t need to “keep going” for this fan JK.
Just a small point, I don’t think it was that Dean didn’t want to “share his toys” as much as he felt Sam might not be interested in joining him.
It did have Sam and Dean in it, so it there was that. I liked that they shared a childhood moment. Maybe I will feel differently after some reflection but I don’t think so.
Now THAT was a great and truly engaging episode. I feel like Gerry did last week, I”m feeling about 1000% better about where Sam and Dean are heading.
Loved the scene where the reminisce about childhood, one of several AWW moments for me this ep, although that last scene was the biggest AWW moment.
The brothers really are pining to be close again. I felt for the first time that Dean was feeling real remorse about the lies and everything and not just that “i’m poison” malarkey. JMO of course. Feeling much more positive about getting some real growth from Dean, and what a wonderful legacy that will be for S9.
Sorry but I think Dark Dean is a red herring.
And next week, my fave guest star- Crowley! I can’t wait, that episode looks to be simply delicious!
Now THAT was a great and truly engaging episode. I feel like Gerry did last week, I”m feeling about 1000% better about where Sam and Dean are heading.
Loved the scene where the reminisce about childhood, one of several AWW moments for me this ep, although that last scene was the biggest AWW moment.
The brothers really are pining to be close again. I felt for the first time that Dean was feeling real remorse about the lies and everything and not just that “i’m poison” malarkey. JMO of course. Feeling much more positive about getting some real growth from Dean, and what a wonderful legacy that will be for S9.
Sorry but I think Dark Dean is a red herring.
And next week, my fave guest star- Crowley! I can’t wait, that episode looks to be simply delicious!
[quote name=”roman”]Any thing these guys do are miraculous a one of a kind. I believe this was an awesome display of acting skills. I’m just saying.[/quote]
INORITE! This ep was an acting tour de force, for all four guys, but particularly Jensen and Jared IMO.
OMG, this may be the best episode of the season!!
[quote]Any thing these guys do are miraculous a one of a kind. I believe this was an awesome display of acting skills. I’m just saying.[/quote]
INORITE! This ep was an acting tour de force, for all four guys, but particularly Jensen and Jared IMO.
OMG, this may be the best episode of the season!!
Well, the writers ruined Garth by turning him into a werewolf. Now they have forever ruined the Ghostfacers by turning them into nothing but ‘angst clones’ of Sam and Dean. I wonder how they will ruin Crowley next week. I was so much looking forward to this ep, hoping it would be a nice, hour long, goofball comedy break from the endless soap opera and violin playing between Sam and Dean. Very big letdown.
Well, the writers ruined Garth by turning him into a werewolf. Now they have forever ruined the Ghostfacers by turning them into nothing but ‘angst clones’ of Sam and Dean. I wonder how they will ruin Crowley next week. I was so much looking forward to this ep, hoping it would be a nice, hour long, goofball comedy break from the endless soap opera and violin playing between Sam and Dean. Very big letdown.
I was more than happy to see the Ghostfacers and it was like old times until the anvil fell, oh yeah it did, and it became all about the Sam and Dean angst and I was just like “No, make it stop”! I’m afraid to tell my hubby, who went to bed 20 minutes in because he works far too early in the AM, is gonna freak about that! He’s so tired of the soap opera angst that he actually said if they made Crowley and Cas the main characters and had them trying to stop another Armageddon Good Omens style (it’s a Neil Gaiman/Terry Pratchet book … quite funny and the demon is actually named Crowley) he’d be way more into it. I don’t agree with him, although he made me laugh and it would be funny, but I understand the frustration.
The anvil you speak of is like a super large one and I’m really hoping the boys were at least in the vicinity of it when it fell … they were but they weren’t about to have that conversation in front of Harry. I’m not as opposed to the angst but it is getting old … wish Bobby was around to talk some sense into them! And I’m done talking about the boys and their angst this episode so moving right along …
Dean has always been pretty good with a gun, or a knife or his bare hands but it seems that since he took on the MOC he has been a bit more BAMF and that does worry me but they’ve dropped any mention of it 3 episode ago for the most part (Dean told Sam about it and that was the end of it). Thats part of my issue with Carver … he brings up these amazing, sometimes scary ideas, and then drops them for episodes at a time without a mention but continues to draw out the angst, which I’m so close to being done with. Oh I won’t stop watching because I’m invested and when there’s an actual episode that moves the main story of the season forward it’s great but some of the Monster of the Week episodes could have been skipped or maybe tied in somehow. Take Changing Channels … starts off with Trickster (yay!) and ends with Gabriel trying to get them to fulfill their roles … maybe that’s what they were trying to do with this episode but just wasn’t the same.
My anvil was taken over by my son and is now covered in Hot Wheels, Monster Trucks and Legos … just in case you were wondering!
I was more than happy to see the Ghostfacers and it was like old times until the anvil fell, oh yeah it did, and it became all about the Sam and Dean angst and I was just like “No, make it stop”! I’m afraid to tell my hubby, who went to bed 20 minutes in because he works far too early in the AM, is gonna freak about that! He’s so tired of the soap opera angst that he actually said if they made Crowley and Cas the main characters and had them trying to stop another Armageddon Good Omens style (it’s a Neil Gaiman/Terry Pratchet book … quite funny and the demon is actually named Crowley) he’d be way more into it. I don’t agree with him, although he made me laugh and it would be funny, but I understand the frustration.
The anvil you speak of is like a super large one and I’m really hoping the boys were at least in the vicinity of it when it fell … they were but they weren’t about to have that conversation in front of Harry. I’m not as opposed to the angst but it is getting old … wish Bobby was around to talk some sense into them! And I’m done talking about the boys and their angst this episode so moving right along …
Dean has always been pretty good with a gun, or a knife or his bare hands but it seems that since he took on the MOC he has been a bit more BAMF and that does worry me but they’ve dropped any mention of it 3 episode ago for the most part (Dean told Sam about it and that was the end of it). Thats part of my issue with Carver … he brings up these amazing, sometimes scary ideas, and then drops them for episodes at a time without a mention but continues to draw out the angst, which I’m so close to being done with. Oh I won’t stop watching because I’m invested and when there’s an actual episode that moves the main story of the season forward it’s great but some of the Monster of the Week episodes could have been skipped or maybe tied in somehow. Take Changing Channels … starts off with Trickster (yay!) and ends with Gabriel trying to get them to fulfill their roles … maybe that’s what they were trying to do with this episode but just wasn’t the same.
My anvil was taken over by my son and is now covered in Hot Wheels, Monster Trucks and Legos … just in case you were wondering!
[quote name=”Richard”]Well, the writers ruined Garth by turning him into a werewolf. Now they have forever ruined the Ghostfacers by turning them into nothing but ‘angst clones’ of Sam and Dean. I wonder how they will ruin Crowley next week. I was so much looking forward to this ep, hoping it would be a nice, hour long, goofball comedy break from the endless soap opera and violin playing between Sam and Dean. Very big letdown.[/quote]
They are ruining their friends … since all they have left is Cas and Crowley (friends is a shaky term I realize) I wonder what will happen to them! I thought Carver was trying rebuild their circle of friends a bit but sure doesn’t feel like it!
[quote]Well, the writers ruined Garth by turning him into a werewolf. Now they have forever ruined the Ghostfacers by turning them into nothing but ‘angst clones’ of Sam and Dean. I wonder how they will ruin Crowley next week. I was so much looking forward to this ep, hoping it would be a nice, hour long, goofball comedy break from the endless soap opera and violin playing between Sam and Dean. Very big letdown.[/quote]
They are ruining their friends … since all they have left is Cas and Crowley (friends is a shaky term I realize) I wonder what will happen to them! I thought Carver was trying rebuild their circle of friends a bit but sure doesn’t feel like it!
Sorry, but I did not appreciate the fact that Ghostfacers, who should only exist for comic relief, be compared in any way to the Winchesters.
x
What Sam and Dean have undergone and sufffered for each other is in no way similar to the stupid litttle argument between Ed and Harry. To even think it is an insult to the brothers.
X
The writers are obviously out of ideas if they have to re-hash the entire history of the show in a vastly inferior and unrespectful manner.
X
As for Sera Gamble, I enyoyed her episodes and her showrunning very much.
She is a female Shakespeare in comparison to Carver ,and unlike he and his writers, she understood and portrayed the unbreakable bro-bond between Sam and Dean perfectly.
Sorry, but I did not appreciate the fact that Ghostfacers, who should only exist for comic relief, be compared in any way to the Winchesters.
x
What Sam and Dean have undergone and sufffered for each other is in no way similar to the stupid litttle argument between Ed and Harry. To even think it is an insult to the brothers.
X
The writers are obviously out of ideas if they have to re-hash the entire history of the show in a vastly inferior and unrespectful manner.
X
As for Sera Gamble, I enyoyed her episodes and her showrunning very much.
She is a female Shakespeare in comparison to Carver ,and unlike he and his writers, she understood and portrayed the unbreakable bro-bond between Sam and Dean perfectly.
I dont understand how anyone could think Ed and Harrys issues can remotely compare to Sam and Deans. I felt like the writer and Carver are belittling Sam and Deans issues.
I dont understand how anyone could think Ed and Harrys issues can remotely compare to Sam and Deans. I felt like the writer and Carver are belittling Sam and Deans issues.
I agree that the Ghostfacer issues pale in comparison to Sam & Dean but I can see it giving the boys pause. I think they’d be more likely to see the other brother’s point of view by witnessing the fallout from Ed & Harry than having even Cas talk to them about their specific situation. Ed & Harry don’t know anything about the Winchesters’ current situation so neither brother seemed to strike a defensive stance.
[quote name=”CastielsCat”]I am reminded of Benny’s comments in CF about how Dean and Elizabeth were links to his list humanity and without them he would be a monster. Family and his heart are what has kept Dean from becoming monstrous. This schism with Sam and mark are a perfect storm.[/quote]
I don’t know whether the Mark of Cain is to blame but I agree that Dean definitely could go dark side all on his own.
I agree that the Ghostfacer issues pale in comparison to Sam & Dean but I can see it giving the boys pause. I think they’d be more likely to see the other brother’s point of view by witnessing the fallout from Ed & Harry than having even Cas talk to them about their specific situation. Ed & Harry don’t know anything about the Winchesters’ current situation so neither brother seemed to strike a defensive stance.
[quote]I am reminded of Benny’s comments in CF about how Dean and Elizabeth were links to his list humanity and without them he would be a monster. Family and his heart are what has kept Dean from becoming monstrous. This schism with Sam and mark are a perfect storm.[/quote]
I don’t know whether the Mark of Cain is to blame but I agree that Dean definitely could go dark side all on his own.
Loved this episode. The thinman was scary (I hate closet monsters). The weechester memory was adorable. I found the parallel to the boys intetesting as it showed the issues from characters we have less investment. It allowed us to observe like a court case. Of course that just might be the science geek part of me comimg out!
Loved this episode. The thinman was scary (I hate closet monsters). The weechester memory was adorable. I found the parallel to the boys intetesting as it showed the issues from characters we have less investment. It allowed us to observe like a court case. Of course that just might be the science geek part of me comimg out!
Just okay for me but it was the weakest episode in what has been a very solid season. The setup was obvious – who didn’t see the waiter and the cop as being involved in this? It’s one thing to draw parallels between other characters and Sam & Dean, but there’s also something to be said to using a little nuance, a more subtle touch in doing so. In this episode, they could have just traded off pages of dialog between Sam/Dean and Ed/Harry. I hope this was intentional and done for “reasons” by Carver and the writer
If I remember correctly, this is the first “human” that Dean has ever killed, isn’t it? He might have killed in self defense before – not sure. Not saying the guy didn’t deserve it, but it definitely crossed that line. Must be that Mark of Cain thing working its mojo.
Just okay for me but it was the weakest episode in what has been a very solid season. The setup was obvious – who didn’t see the waiter and the cop as being involved in this? It’s one thing to draw parallels between other characters and Sam & Dean, but there’s also something to be said to using a little nuance, a more subtle touch in doing so. In this episode, they could have just traded off pages of dialog between Sam/Dean and Ed/Harry. I hope this was intentional and done for “reasons” by Carver and the writer
If I remember correctly, this is the first “human” that Dean has ever killed, isn’t it? He might have killed in self defense before – not sure. Not saying the guy didn’t deserve it, but it definitely crossed that line. Must be that Mark of Cain thing working its mojo.
i didn’t really have a problem with this ep at all. on a note that has nothing to do with the storyline, i always get a kick when people from the past show up and i have to remember where i saw them. like the killer was in mannequin 3 and the mom of the girl was the new wife of molly’s husband in roadkill. plus that picture on the hotel wall in sam and dean’s room. i’ve seen it quite a few times but i can’t recall which eps..
i don’t think the storyline was meant to belittle sam and dean’s situation at all. i actually liked it. ed and harry are like brothers. ed made a decision for harry ( his girl is no good). he also lied to harry in order to keep him with him. a trust was broken. harry feels betrayed. ed never did that to him before and he never expected it from him. it’s going to take harry time. to reconcile all that’s happened with how he feels about ed .it’s complicated. and you can see the grief for both ghostfacers.
of course the situations don’t compare if you’re comparing which is worse, or the fact that sam and dean have a different history.
i don’t think klein was doing that at all. but clearly ed was dean in this story. and i think there is supposed to be a lesson in here for dean. i think by dean seeing the similarities of what both he and ed had done and seeing harry’s pain, it’s giving dean the ability to focus for the first time. dean has been wallowing in his own guilt. he is also blinded by his belief that saving sam was the right thing to do, he hasn’t been able to focus on what he did that was wrong. seeing what’s gone on between ed and harry, i think the fog has lifted. i think dean can see now. i think he’s that much closer to that apology to sam and them having their talk.
but it ‘s not just about dean. it’s about sam. sam is so hurt and angry and has lost his trust in his brother that he can only focus right now on what dean did wrong, although i don’t believe he’s angry with dean saving him, just the how and the lying and his belief that dean doesn’t trust him. but sam heard ed’s confession. sam is a very sympathetic and empathetic person. he might not agree with ed at all, but you saw understanding and pity coming from sam. it’s easier to see more clearly when it’s not your pain and your family.
and what harry said in the car about the rocking chair next to you being gone…both sam and dean had a pained expression on their faces…you can tell that’s something neither brother ever wants.
now i don’t know how harry is going to handle his situation with ed, but i did see that both boys, thanks to the ghostfacers, are that much closer to talking. if anything is going to motivate these boys, it’s what happened between harry and ed. i think we’re going to get a continuation of this at the beginning of next week’s ep and the end. i really do think the time is close where these two finally have that sit down. i think the pacing is realistic and i don’t think it’s all that angsty. sam and dean though damaged at the moment have still shown no signs that they don’t love ea. other. because of that i feel it’s been easier to watch and there has never been a moment where i ever doubted everything would be ok.
maybe the moc is similar to the db storyline. in s4 sam was immune to lilith. so something in him was protecting him. i think show indicated it was his db. so that was sam’s burden. i think sam being the only one to kill lilith was true. so his burden to bare was to keep drinking db to strengthen his powers to destroy lilith. it was a dark path, but sam had stayed good. he was using his powers for good. he was saving lives without killing the host. but he was enjoying the power that came with it, the control he finally had. so as time went on, it’s possible that he could’ve gone darker. i think the moc might be the same kind of situation. dean’s burden now is that he alone is the only one who could kill abbadon. having a burden such as that, dean may have to cross lines that he normally wouldn’t otherwise. maybe it would be because he had to. but like with the db he may start to enjoy the power/control that comes with the moc, much like sam had started to. that could lead to a darker side of dean.
all in all, i’m really enjoying the hell out of s9, so take out your crayon and color me a happy camper.
i didn’t really have a problem with this ep at all. on a note that has nothing to do with the storyline, i always get a kick when people from the past show up and i have to remember where i saw them. like the killer was in mannequin 3 and the mom of the girl was the new wife of molly’s husband in roadkill. plus that picture on the hotel wall in sam and dean’s room. i’ve seen it quite a few times but i can’t recall which eps..
i don’t think the storyline was meant to belittle sam and dean’s situation at all. i actually liked it. ed and harry are like brothers. ed made a decision for harry ( his girl is no good). he also lied to harry in order to keep him with him. a trust was broken. harry feels betrayed. ed never did that to him before and he never expected it from him. it’s going to take harry time. to reconcile all that’s happened with how he feels about ed .it’s complicated. and you can see the grief for both ghostfacers.
of course the situations don’t compare if you’re comparing which is worse, or the fact that sam and dean have a different history.
i don’t think klein was doing that at all. but clearly ed was dean in this story. and i think there is supposed to be a lesson in here for dean. i think by dean seeing the similarities of what both he and ed had done and seeing harry’s pain, it’s giving dean the ability to focus for the first time. dean has been wallowing in his own guilt. he is also blinded by his belief that saving sam was the right thing to do, he hasn’t been able to focus on what he did that was wrong. seeing what’s gone on between ed and harry, i think the fog has lifted. i think dean can see now. i think he’s that much closer to that apology to sam and them having their talk.
but it ‘s not just about dean. it’s about sam. sam is so hurt and angry and has lost his trust in his brother that he can only focus right now on what dean did wrong, although i don’t believe he’s angry with dean saving him, just the how and the lying and his belief that dean doesn’t trust him. but sam heard ed’s confession. sam is a very sympathetic and empathetic person. he might not agree with ed at all, but you saw understanding and pity coming from sam. it’s easier to see more clearly when it’s not your pain and your family.
and what harry said in the car about the rocking chair next to you being gone…both sam and dean had a pained expression on their faces…you can tell that’s something neither brother ever wants.
now i don’t know how harry is going to handle his situation with ed, but i did see that both boys, thanks to the ghostfacers, are that much closer to talking. if anything is going to motivate these boys, it’s what happened between harry and ed. i think we’re going to get a continuation of this at the beginning of next week’s ep and the end. i really do think the time is close where these two finally have that sit down. i think the pacing is realistic and i don’t think it’s all that angsty. sam and dean though damaged at the moment have still shown no signs that they don’t love ea. other. because of that i feel it’s been easier to watch and there has never been a moment where i ever doubted everything would be ok.
maybe the moc is similar to the db storyline. in s4 sam was immune to lilith. so something in him was protecting him. i think show indicated it was his db. so that was sam’s burden. i think sam being the only one to kill lilith was true. so his burden to bare was to keep drinking db to strengthen his powers to destroy lilith. it was a dark path, but sam had stayed good. he was using his powers for good. he was saving lives without killing the host. but he was enjoying the power that came with it, the control he finally had. so as time went on, it’s possible that he could’ve gone darker. i think the moc might be the same kind of situation. dean’s burden now is that he alone is the only one who could kill abbadon. having a burden such as that, dean may have to cross lines that he normally wouldn’t otherwise. maybe it would be because he had to. but like with the db he may start to enjoy the power/control that comes with the moc, much like sam had started to. that could lead to a darker side of dean.
all in all, i’m really enjoying the hell out of s9, so take out your crayon and color me a happy camper.
I enjoyed this ep, which is saying something because I’ve not really been a great fan of the Ghostfacers episodes. But the writers allowed Ed and Harry to grow up here, and it fit them. And although their story isn’t anything as powerful or deep as Sam and Dean, the parallels fit and as usual, seeing things that fit their own relationship, coming from another POV, usually helps them figure things out.
I agree with those of you who feel the stabbing is a step Dean is taking heading down the Mark of Cain road. Although I expected a reaction from Sam on that one…he seemed ‘okay’ with it watching it happen.
Although I too hate the boys at odds, the progression does make sense. Nothing is an instant fix for these guys and never will be.
All in all, a really good episode, even though I did have to wait until 11PM east coat time to watch because of yet ANOTHER basketball game. Sheesh! Who knew CW carried so many local basketball games?
I enjoyed this ep, which is saying something because I’ve not really been a great fan of the Ghostfacers episodes. But the writers allowed Ed and Harry to grow up here, and it fit them. And although their story isn’t anything as powerful or deep as Sam and Dean, the parallels fit and as usual, seeing things that fit their own relationship, coming from another POV, usually helps them figure things out.
I agree with those of you who feel the stabbing is a step Dean is taking heading down the Mark of Cain road. Although I expected a reaction from Sam on that one…he seemed ‘okay’ with it watching it happen.
Although I too hate the boys at odds, the progression does make sense. Nothing is an instant fix for these guys and never will be.
All in all, a really good episode, even though I did have to wait until 11PM east coat time to watch because of yet ANOTHER basketball game. Sheesh! Who knew CW carried so many local basketball games?
i also thought using the ghostfacers was smart too. this story wouldn’t have impacted sam and dean if it happened to strangers. sam and dean met harry and ed 9 years ago. every time they met, harry and ed were still together. i mean close. they were ghostfacers. sam and dean have never see harry and ed apart. sam and dean know how close the two of them are. they might annoy the hell out of the winchester boys but they’ve always done so together as a family. i’ve always liked the ghostfacers. i love the humor they bring to the show. in all honesty out of all the characters left alive on this show, the only ones who can really impact sam and dean on the value of brotherhood, it’s ed and harry.
i also thought using the ghostfacers was smart too. this story wouldn’t have impacted sam and dean if it happened to strangers. sam and dean met harry and ed 9 years ago. every time they met, harry and ed were still together. i mean close. they were ghostfacers. sam and dean have never see harry and ed apart. sam and dean know how close the two of them are. they might annoy the hell out of the winchester boys but they’ve always done so together as a family. i’ve always liked the ghostfacers. i love the humor they bring to the show. in all honesty out of all the characters left alive on this show, the only ones who can really impact sam and dean on the value of brotherhood, it’s ed and harry.
Dean had a bike as a kid? Find that hard to believe. Unless he stole one.
I think the anvil was needed in this episode in order to get Dean to see the consequences of what lying to the people who you are closest to are. In this case, it caused Harry to leave Ed. IMO Dean needs to see that although what Ed did was dickish, what Dean did was much worse. He made a life and death decision for Sam that he had not right to make.
Hopefully, he will get there.
Dean had a bike as a kid? Find that hard to believe. Unless he stole one.
I think the anvil was needed in this episode in order to get Dean to see the consequences of what lying to the people who you are closest to are. In this case, it caused Harry to leave Ed. IMO Dean needs to see that although what Ed did was dickish, what Dean did was much worse. He made a life and death decision for Sam that he had not right to make.
Hopefully, he will get there.
I expected a one-off episode, which it was, from a certain point of view. The story itself was so obvious and had no surprises. I really like being surprised. It was obvious what Ed had done, once the story delved into Harry and his girl problems. It was obvious the Thinman was a fake and it was pretty obvious who it was once the camera played too long on the guy at the restaurant and absolute once the manager was killed.
The breakup at the end was a mirror to our boys but the true lesson for Dean was how despondent Harry was at the end. Only time will tell if this will be Dean’s catalyst to understanding the true damage he’s done, and to understanding the sadness he has caused to his brother.
On the other hand, it was good to see the facers again, and they are still alive and dorky badasses. Maybe time will heal the wounds.
Great acting by all once again. The tension is getting thick and should be at about the breaking point (I hope). And I do hope they don’t wait until the last episode to find a solution, but they probably will. Still, an enjoyable ride.
I expected a one-off episode, which it was, from a certain point of view. The story itself was so obvious and had no surprises. I really like being surprised. It was obvious what Ed had done, once the story delved into Harry and his girl problems. It was obvious the Thinman was a fake and it was pretty obvious who it was once the camera played too long on the guy at the restaurant and absolute once the manager was killed.
The breakup at the end was a mirror to our boys but the true lesson for Dean was how despondent Harry was at the end. Only time will tell if this will be Dean’s catalyst to understanding the true damage he’s done, and to understanding the sadness he has caused to his brother.
On the other hand, it was good to see the facers again, and they are still alive and dorky badasses. Maybe time will heal the wounds.
Great acting by all once again. The tension is getting thick and should be at about the breaking point (I hope). And I do hope they don’t wait until the last episode to find a solution, but they probably will. Still, an enjoyable ride.
Momma said there’d be episodes like this. I agree with all the comments about hoping the Ghostfacers’ disfunction gives Sam and Dean new insight. Just, too heavy handed and obvious. (Though the opening scene when she sees the Thinman in the selfie was really scary!) I do feel we’re getting there in terms of a relationship resolution, and I actually prefer the slow process to the sweeping it under the rug, as they have done in the past.
We press on. Looking forward to Crowley next week.
Momma said there’d be episodes like this. I agree with all the comments about hoping the Ghostfacers’ disfunction gives Sam and Dean new insight. Just, too heavy handed and obvious. (Though the opening scene when she sees the Thinman in the selfie was really scary!) I do feel we’re getting there in terms of a relationship resolution, and I actually prefer the slow process to the sweeping it under the rug, as they have done in the past.
We press on. Looking forward to Crowley next week.
[quote name=”Jo1027″]
I think the anvil was needed in this episode in order to get Dean to see the consequences of what lying to the people who you are closest to are. In this case, it caused Harry to leave Ed. IMO Dean needs to see that although what Ed did was dickish, what Dean did was much worse. He made a life and death decision for Sam that he had not right to make.
Hopefully, he will get there.[/quote]
I REALLY hope the anvils were not just intended for Dean. Yeah, Dean lied this time, but Sam has lied to his brother in the past..many of times.
Both brothers needs to learn a lesson here & learn something about the other – the most important thing is that the brothers need to learn to understand each other. It is a two-way street.
Yes, Sam was wronged with the angel possession save. But Sam needs to understand why Dean did what he did. Dean did not save Sam out of malice or anything. What Dean did was wrong, but it is not unforgivable.
I hope this episode hinted at the fact that both brothers really do want to grow old together & rock in some rocking chairs side by side.
[quote]
I think the anvil was needed in this episode in order to get Dean to see the consequences of what lying to the people who you are closest to are. In this case, it caused Harry to leave Ed. IMO Dean needs to see that although what Ed did was dickish, what Dean did was much worse. He made a life and death decision for Sam that he had not right to make.
Hopefully, he will get there.[/quote]
I REALLY hope the anvils were not just intended for Dean. Yeah, Dean lied this time, but Sam has lied to his brother in the past..many of times.
Both brothers needs to learn a lesson here & learn something about the other – the most important thing is that the brothers need to learn to understand each other. It is a two-way street.
Yes, Sam was wronged with the angel possession save. But Sam needs to understand why Dean did what he did. Dean did not save Sam out of malice or anything. What Dean did was wrong, but it is not unforgivable.
I hope this episode hinted at the fact that both brothers really do want to grow old together & rock in some rocking chairs side by side.
[quote name=”Jo1027″]
I think the anvil was needed in this episode in order to get Dean to see the consequences of what lying to the people who you are closest to are. In this case, it caused Harry to leave Ed. IMO Dean needs to see that although what Ed did was dickish, what Dean did was much worse. He made a life and death decision for Sam that he had not right to make.
Hopefully, he will get there.[/quote]
Exactly! That YEARNING from both brothers when that one GF talked about growing old with the empty chair. Neither wants that. It’s so beautiful I could cry!
I really think this will get thru to Dean (and fandom) in a real way, because it’s not coming from Sam. That, unfortunately, is the main reason why Dean can’t understand what Sam is saying- because Sam is saying it.
Now Dean can see how destructive the lies are to a relationship, although of course the brothers have a stronger relationship than the GF, and they will get past this. And it will be beautiful.
[quote]
I think the anvil was needed in this episode in order to get Dean to see the consequences of what lying to the people who you are closest to are. In this case, it caused Harry to leave Ed. IMO Dean needs to see that although what Ed did was dickish, what Dean did was much worse. He made a life and death decision for Sam that he had not right to make.
Hopefully, he will get there.[/quote]
Exactly! That YEARNING from both brothers when that one GF talked about growing old with the empty chair. Neither wants that. It’s so beautiful I could cry!
I really think this will get thru to Dean (and fandom) in a real way, because it’s not coming from Sam. That, unfortunately, is the main reason why Dean can’t understand what Sam is saying- because Sam is saying it.
Now Dean can see how destructive the lies are to a relationship, although of course the brothers have a stronger relationship than the GF, and they will get past this. And it will be beautiful.
[quote name=”dashnjo”]I was more than happy to see the Ghostfacers and it was like old times until the anvil fell, oh yeah it did, and it became all about the Sam and Dean angst and I was just like “No, make it stop”! I’m afraid to tell my hubby, who went to bed 20 minutes in because he works far too early in the AM, is gonna freak about that! He’s so tired of the soap opera angst that he actually said if they made Crowley and Cas the main characters and had them trying to stop another Armageddon Good Omens style (it’s a Neil Gaiman/Terry Pratchet book … quite funny and the demon is actually named Crowley) he’d be way more into it. I don’t agree with him, although he made me laugh and it would be funny, but I understand the frustration.
The anvil you speak of is like a super large one and I’m really hoping the boys were at least in the vicinity of it when it fell … they were but they weren’t about to have that conversation in front of Harry. I’m not as opposed to the angst but it is getting old … wish Bobby was around to talk some sense into them! And I’m done talking about the boys and their angst this episode so moving right along …
Dean has always been pretty good with a gun, or a knife or his bare hands but it seems that since he took on the MOC he has been a bit more BAMF and that does worry me but they’ve dropped any mention of it 3 episode ago for the most part (Dean told Sam about it and that was the end of it). Thats part of my issue with Carver … he brings up these amazing, sometimes scary ideas, and then drops them for episodes at a time without a mention but continues to draw out the angst, which I’m so close to being done with. Oh I won’t stop watching because I’m invested and when there’s an actual episode that moves the main story of the season forward it’s great but some of the Monster of the Week episodes could have been skipped or maybe tied in somehow. Take Changing Channels … starts off with Trickster (yay!) and ends with Gabriel trying to get them to fulfill their roles … maybe that’s what they were trying to do with this episode but just wasn’t the same.
My anvil was taken over by my son and is now covered in Hot Wheels, Monster Trucks and Legos … just in case you were wondering![/quote]
My thinking with the MOC is that the changes will not be noticeable and of course its keeping the fandom talking about it like what happend to it. Well we have no idea what will happen with regards to the mark because Dean never got the details so we as fans have to say is that part and keeps us talking about it. I think some of this stuff has to do with the mark I mean as everyone has pointed out Dean would stop from killing a normal person no matter how bad. But since knife was in his hand and in #thinman guy its like not sure who brought it down but if you look at Dean he didn’t flinch. I think only regret he had was Harry killing someone. Different if Sam or Dean since they have done it but when you are normal person who has never shot a gun and killed someone that will have some kind of effect on you. I think he regrets that Harry had to shoot someone. Another thing intresting is how easily Dean has adjusted to the working arrangement. He found a case and was going to leave on his own and do it. Since he is clueless on sam and what he wants he is just going to keep working cases. And he is about to leave when sam stops him and wants to go along of course again Dean went to Sam all professional like. I think Dean is adjusting to this now. Like I said they can show Ed and Harry as Sam and dean the one thing is Dean can be happy with this arrangement because Sam is alive and they are working cases. To him its a win win. Its just who is going to make the first move to fix this. Because like I said we have no clue what is a side effect of the mark. And the more Dean changes not sure if Sam is noticing it the more he maybe loosing Dean and who knows what that might lead to if Dean does take the weapon in his hand will it change Dean? But like I said Carver is not that stupid in my book because he has the fans talking about the mark and I guess from winchester radio that the mark of cain arc is pretty much hush hush on set. Someone asked a writer or something about the mark and its the one story arc that they are not giving anything away. And I like that because what is going to happen to dean with the mark? Its not going away and I think it will also be some of the S10. I just find it intresting also that Dean does not pray to cas anymore. Instead he is waiting to hear from Crowley? Like I said I can fast forward through the facers part of eps but I enjoyed the sam and dean stuff.
[quote]I was more than happy to see the Ghostfacers and it was like old times until the anvil fell, oh yeah it did, and it became all about the Sam and Dean angst and I was just like “No, make it stop”! I’m afraid to tell my hubby, who went to bed 20 minutes in because he works far too early in the AM, is gonna freak about that! He’s so tired of the soap opera angst that he actually said if they made Crowley and Cas the main characters and had them trying to stop another Armageddon Good Omens style (it’s a Neil Gaiman/Terry Pratchet book … quite funny and the demon is actually named Crowley) he’d be way more into it. I don’t agree with him, although he made me laugh and it would be funny, but I understand the frustration.
The anvil you speak of is like a super large one and I’m really hoping the boys were at least in the vicinity of it when it fell … they were but they weren’t about to have that conversation in front of Harry. I’m not as opposed to the angst but it is getting old … wish Bobby was around to talk some sense into them! And I’m done talking about the boys and their angst this episode so moving right along …
Dean has always been pretty good with a gun, or a knife or his bare hands but it seems that since he took on the MOC he has been a bit more BAMF and that does worry me but they’ve dropped any mention of it 3 episode ago for the most part (Dean told Sam about it and that was the end of it). Thats part of my issue with Carver … he brings up these amazing, sometimes scary ideas, and then drops them for episodes at a time without a mention but continues to draw out the angst, which I’m so close to being done with. Oh I won’t stop watching because I’m invested and when there’s an actual episode that moves the main story of the season forward it’s great but some of the Monster of the Week episodes could have been skipped or maybe tied in somehow. Take Changing Channels … starts off with Trickster (yay!) and ends with Gabriel trying to get them to fulfill their roles … maybe that’s what they were trying to do with this episode but just wasn’t the same.
My anvil was taken over by my son and is now covered in Hot Wheels, Monster Trucks and Legos … just in case you were wondering![/quote]
My thinking with the MOC is that the changes will not be noticeable and of course its keeping the fandom talking about it like what happend to it. Well we have no idea what will happen with regards to the mark because Dean never got the details so we as fans have to say is that part and keeps us talking about it. I think some of this stuff has to do with the mark I mean as everyone has pointed out Dean would stop from killing a normal person no matter how bad. But since knife was in his hand and in #thinman guy its like not sure who brought it down but if you look at Dean he didn’t flinch. I think only regret he had was Harry killing someone. Different if Sam or Dean since they have done it but when you are normal person who has never shot a gun and killed someone that will have some kind of effect on you. I think he regrets that Harry had to shoot someone. Another thing intresting is how easily Dean has adjusted to the working arrangement. He found a case and was going to leave on his own and do it. Since he is clueless on sam and what he wants he is just going to keep working cases. And he is about to leave when sam stops him and wants to go along of course again Dean went to Sam all professional like. I think Dean is adjusting to this now. Like I said they can show Ed and Harry as Sam and dean the one thing is Dean can be happy with this arrangement because Sam is alive and they are working cases. To him its a win win. Its just who is going to make the first move to fix this. Because like I said we have no clue what is a side effect of the mark. And the more Dean changes not sure if Sam is noticing it the more he maybe loosing Dean and who knows what that might lead to if Dean does take the weapon in his hand will it change Dean? But like I said Carver is not that stupid in my book because he has the fans talking about the mark and I guess from winchester radio that the mark of cain arc is pretty much hush hush on set. Someone asked a writer or something about the mark and its the one story arc that they are not giving anything away. And I like that because what is going to happen to dean with the mark? Its not going away and I think it will also be some of the S10. I just find it intresting also that Dean does not pray to cas anymore. Instead he is waiting to hear from Crowley? Like I said I can fast forward through the facers part of eps but I enjoyed the sam and dean stuff.
[quote name=”JJ”]
I REALLY hope the anvils were not just intended for Dean. Yeah, Dean lied this time, but Sam has lied to his brother in the past..many of times. [/quote]
Yes Sam has, he really has lied before, that’s for sure, and like now, it almost ruined the relationship. Dean said, “We’ll never be what we were.” Then Sam apologized, and tried to make amends.
[quote name=”JJ”]
Both brothers needs to learn a lesson here & learn something about the other – the most important thing is that the brothers need to learn to understand each other. It is a two-way street.
Yes, Sam was wronged with the angel possession save. But Sam needs to understand why Dean did what he did. Dean did not save Sam out of malice or anything.[/quote]
I think Sam does know why Dean did what he did- it’s hardly vague. How many more times can Dean say “Well, I can’t let you die, because I’m me, and I just won’t.”? It’s not hard to understand, it’s just impossible to accept.
Sam needs to explain to Dean, “You think that’s love, but it doesn’t feel like that, because it hurts too much. You can love me, and let me be me.”
[quote name=”JJ”]
I hope this episode hinted at the fact that both brothers really do want to grow old together & rock in some rocking chairs side by side.[/quote]
Yes, very true, and it will beautiful!!
[quote]
I REALLY hope the anvils were not just intended for Dean. Yeah, Dean lied this time, but Sam has lied to his brother in the past..many of times. [/quote]
Yes Sam has, he really has lied before, that’s for sure, and like now, it almost ruined the relationship. Dean said, “We’ll never be what we were.” Then Sam apologized, and tried to make amends.
[quote]
Both brothers needs to learn a lesson here & learn something about the other – the most important thing is that the brothers need to learn to understand each other. It is a two-way street.
Yes, Sam was wronged with the angel possession save. But Sam needs to understand why Dean did what he did. Dean did not save Sam out of malice or anything.[/quote]
I think Sam does know why Dean did what he did- it’s hardly vague. How many more times can Dean say “Well, I can’t let you die, because I’m me, and I just won’t.”? It’s not hard to understand, it’s just impossible to accept.
Sam needs to explain to Dean, “You think that’s love, but it doesn’t feel like that, because it hurts too much. You can love me, and let me be me.”
[quote]
I hope this episode hinted at the fact that both brothers really do want to grow old together & rock in some rocking chairs side by side.[/quote]
Yes, very true, and it will beautiful!!
Another thing intresting is how easily Dean has adjusted to the working arrangement. He found a case and was going to leave on his own and do it. Since he is clueless on sam and what he wants he is just going to keep working cases.
right here. this was the only part of this episode that frustrated me. dean doesn’t know what sam wants? really? this line portrayed dean as totally stupid or totally insensitive and it bothered me that he had him say it, especially given that dean knows what he did wrong. they did the same thing in the end too. i was so aggravated when dean told sam they were weaker together..it was so blatantly bogus and it came from ben edlund which baffled me even more.
but as the eppy went on i got it. dean still can’t get past that he did the right thing by saving sam.. but after witnessing what went on between harry and ed, i think the fog has lifted for dean. i think now he just might understand what it is that sam is looking for. 😀 so i forgave klein for that one.
we are so close to having the boys resolve it all..i’m very excited.
Another thing intresting is how easily Dean has adjusted to the working arrangement. He found a case and was going to leave on his own and do it. Since he is clueless on sam and what he wants he is just going to keep working cases.
right here. this was the only part of this episode that frustrated me. dean doesn’t know what sam wants? really? this line portrayed dean as totally stupid or totally insensitive and it bothered me that he had him say it, especially given that dean knows what he did wrong. they did the same thing in the end too. i was so aggravated when dean told sam they were weaker together..it was so blatantly bogus and it came from ben edlund which baffled me even more.
but as the eppy went on i got it. dean still can’t get past that he did the right thing by saving sam.. but after witnessing what went on between harry and ed, i think the fog has lifted for dean. i think now he just might understand what it is that sam is looking for. 😀 so i forgave klein for that one.
we are so close to having the boys resolve it all..i’m very excited.
I have been giving this MoC some thought and what I came up with is interesting.
Cain isnt the type of demon Crowley is for a reason. I got the impression that Cain is not a spirit and never died. I think that the body we saw was his original body (which is why he asks Dean to kill it with the Blade and that body ,due to the Mark, may be immortal.) and that what happened was that it was corrupted by the Mark , probably in combination with the use of the First Blade.
It’s probably not the Blade itself that will corrupt Dean, but maybe using the Blade that does it.
Yeah, yeah, I know this is all spec, but I do like this theory. still think the MoC is having some subtle effect on Dean’s behaviour. His knife-work in the last several episodes has had creepiness factor that it didn’t use to have.. And last night ,while Dean was killing Thinman, the camera went to a reaction shot of Sam , meaning Sam noticed something’s off too. I think the writers are just being very subtle about the info. they’re giving us on its effect on Dean. He was very cold about it and didnt even bat an eye after he did it.
But this is just imo, guys.
I have been giving this MoC some thought and what I came up with is interesting.
Cain isnt the type of demon Crowley is for a reason. I got the impression that Cain is not a spirit and never died. I think that the body we saw was his original body (which is why he asks Dean to kill it with the Blade and that body ,due to the Mark, may be immortal.) and that what happened was that it was corrupted by the Mark , probably in combination with the use of the First Blade.
It’s probably not the Blade itself that will corrupt Dean, but maybe using the Blade that does it.
Yeah, yeah, I know this is all spec, but I do like this theory. still think the MoC is having some subtle effect on Dean’s behaviour. His knife-work in the last several episodes has had creepiness factor that it didn’t use to have.. And last night ,while Dean was killing Thinman, the camera went to a reaction shot of Sam , meaning Sam noticed something’s off too. I think the writers are just being very subtle about the info. they’re giving us on its effect on Dean. He was very cold about it and didnt even bat an eye after he did it.
But this is just imo, guys.
#28 Nappi: Yeah, I think Dean is still stuck on the “saving Sam was wrong” angle of this problem, when the problem is not that he saved Sam. It’s how he did it and it seems prefectly understandable for me that Dean would fixate on that part of the equation and double down and get all stubborn about it. It was the first thing he defended himself against after it was all found out. He thinks Sam is angry at him about the saving part and wants him to apologise for that. What Sam wants is for Dean to figure out that its the trickery and “Gaslighting” he did in the aftermath that makes him not trust him. Dean lying to him,while Sam believed something was horribly wrong with him or that he was going insane is for me the most horrifc part of what happened. Dean won’t see that part believing ,of course, that he did what he had to. He wont apologise for that, but maybe he can understand and apologise for violating Sam’s trust.
Although to be absolutley fair, the writers have been somewhat inconsistent about what Sam wants. They need to make that as clearly hamhanded as this episode was.
#28 Nappi: Yeah, I think Dean is still stuck on the “saving Sam was wrong” angle of this problem, when the problem is not that he saved Sam. It’s how he did it and it seems prefectly understandable for me that Dean would fixate on that part of the equation and double down and get all stubborn about it. It was the first thing he defended himself against after it was all found out. He thinks Sam is angry at him about the saving part and wants him to apologise for that. What Sam wants is for Dean to figure out that its the trickery and “Gaslighting” he did in the aftermath that makes him not trust him. Dean lying to him,while Sam believed something was horribly wrong with him or that he was going insane is for me the most horrifc part of what happened. Dean won’t see that part believing ,of course, that he did what he had to. He wont apologise for that, but maybe he can understand and apologise for violating Sam’s trust.
Although to be absolutley fair, the writers have been somewhat inconsistent about what Sam wants. They need to make that as clearly hamhanded as this episode was.
[quote name=”lkeke35″]#28 Nappi: Yeah, I think Dean is still stuck on the “saving Sam was wrong” angle of this problem, when the problem is not that he saved Sam. It’s how he did it and it seems prefectly understandable for me that Dean would fixate on that part of the equation and double down and get all stubborn about it. It was the first thing he defended himself against after it was all found out. He thinks Sam is angry at him about the saving part and wants him to apologise for that. What Sam wants is for Dean to figure out that its the trickery and “Gaslighting” he did in the aftermath that makes him not trust him. Dean lying to him,while Sam believed something was horribly wrong with him or that he was going insane is for me the most horrifc part of what happened. Dean won’t see that part believing ,of course, that he did what he had to. He wont apologise for that, but maybe he can understand and apologise for violating Sam’s trust.
Although to be absolutley fair, the writers have been somewhat inconsistent about what Sam wants. They need to make that as clearly hamhanded as this episode was.[/quote]
i don’t think there is an inconsistency with sam. it’s supposed to be complicated. sam still loves his brother, he wants to fix things, but he’s still hurt and angry and frustrated with dean. he can’t make the love go away, but he can’t make the anger just disappear either. he’s behaving quite normally given what he’s experienced and his feelings of love that he has towards his brother. i’m not sure what dean is confused about. he knows his brother is angry. he knows at least one of the reasons why. it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that an apology is due…even if dean apologizes for the wrong thing, it would at least be a start. you know what i mean. i’m still not sure what sam is doing that’s so confusing? does dean expect sam to let him die when he’s in trouble? is the fact that sam runs when dean calls what’s confusing him? is it the fact that sam still wants to work with his brother what’s confusing him? they did agree that they are still partners. i guess i don’t see what sam is doing that’s such a mystery?
[quote]#28 Nappi: Yeah, I think Dean is still stuck on the “saving Sam was wrong” angle of this problem, when the problem is not that he saved Sam. It’s how he did it and it seems prefectly understandable for me that Dean would fixate on that part of the equation and double down and get all stubborn about it. It was the first thing he defended himself against after it was all found out. He thinks Sam is angry at him about the saving part and wants him to apologise for that. What Sam wants is for Dean to figure out that its the trickery and “Gaslighting” he did in the aftermath that makes him not trust him. Dean lying to him,while Sam believed something was horribly wrong with him or that he was going insane is for me the most horrifc part of what happened. Dean won’t see that part believing ,of course, that he did what he had to. He wont apologise for that, but maybe he can understand and apologise for violating Sam’s trust.
Although to be absolutley fair, the writers have been somewhat inconsistent about what Sam wants. They need to make that as clearly hamhanded as this episode was.[/quote]
i don’t think there is an inconsistency with sam. it’s supposed to be complicated. sam still loves his brother, he wants to fix things, but he’s still hurt and angry and frustrated with dean. he can’t make the love go away, but he can’t make the anger just disappear either. he’s behaving quite normally given what he’s experienced and his feelings of love that he has towards his brother. i’m not sure what dean is confused about. he knows his brother is angry. he knows at least one of the reasons why. it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that an apology is due…even if dean apologizes for the wrong thing, it would at least be a start. you know what i mean. i’m still not sure what sam is doing that’s so confusing? does dean expect sam to let him die when he’s in trouble? is the fact that sam runs when dean calls what’s confusing him? is it the fact that sam still wants to work with his brother what’s confusing him? they did agree that they are still partners. i guess i don’t see what sam is doing that’s such a mystery?
I think probably what’s confusing Dean is all of the above. But as one poster said, if that’s the case, then they are making Dean out to be rather dense and I don’t like that. I prefer to think he’s just being stubborn rather than stupid.
You’re right. He knows Sam is mad about at least one thing. What I meant though is some things might be confusing for the viewers. After all there’s been many long hours logged on message boards agruing this whole thing out. Maybe if the writers made things more clear to the viewers, there might not be so much contention and confusion among the fandom (or heck, maybe that’s the intent. I wouldn’t put that past them.) Not to disparage anyone’s opinion, but the past few weeks has led me to believe that a significant contingent of people have no idea what Sam wants from Dean and don’t have any clue why he’s angry.
I know things seem pretty clear to you what the issue is and I’m pretty sure what the issue is but some people need to be flat-out told exactly what to think about Sam or they will just come up with their own character motivations, such as the default position that – Dean is always right no matter what he does and Sam should just get over it.
And even though other members of the fandom have explained exactly why Sam can’t just get over it, some people still seem confused about it.
I think probably what’s confusing Dean is all of the above. But as one poster said, if that’s the case, then they are making Dean out to be rather dense and I don’t like that. I prefer to think he’s just being stubborn rather than stupid.
You’re right. He knows Sam is mad about at least one thing. What I meant though is some things might be confusing for the viewers. After all there’s been many long hours logged on message boards agruing this whole thing out. Maybe if the writers made things more clear to the viewers, there might not be so much contention and confusion among the fandom (or heck, maybe that’s the intent. I wouldn’t put that past them.) Not to disparage anyone’s opinion, but the past few weeks has led me to believe that a significant contingent of people have no idea what Sam wants from Dean and don’t have any clue why he’s angry.
I know things seem pretty clear to you what the issue is and I’m pretty sure what the issue is but some people need to be flat-out told exactly what to think about Sam or they will just come up with their own character motivations, such as the default position that – Dean is always right no matter what he does and Sam should just get over it.
And even though other members of the fandom have explained exactly why Sam can’t just get over it, some people still seem confused about it.
Ikeke35 I think that is why the anvils were flying last night. Ed and Harry’s issues were supposed to mirror Sam and Dean’s (duh). I think the intent was to spell it out for those fans who are still confused but not actually have it come out of the brothers mouths. Sam and Dean were of course supposed to have seen themselves going down that very same road. I hope it gave them pause. Does Sam really want things to go that far? What does he really want from Dean? I think Dean wants to know as well. I have a feeling another talk is coming.
Ikeke35 I think that is why the anvils were flying last night. Ed and Harry’s issues were supposed to mirror Sam and Dean’s (duh). I think the intent was to spell it out for those fans who are still confused but not actually have it come out of the brothers mouths. Sam and Dean were of course supposed to have seen themselves going down that very same road. I hope it gave them pause. Does Sam really want things to go that far? What does he really want from Dean? I think Dean wants to know as well. I have a feeling another talk is coming.
Okay…. first thought …
I appreciate it that people are a bit put out by the writer this episode because they have compared Sam and Dean to Ed and Harry. But there is a diference between them.
What we need to see is not the similarity between Sam/Dean and Ed/Harry but their differences.
1. Ed/Harry doesn’t have that long and epic history like Sam/Dean (child of Destiny)
2. They’re not brothers and doesn’t have Sam/Dean’s level of co-dependency.
3. Sam and Dean can reminiscent about their childhood. I don’t know if Ed and Harry has been friends since childhood or not but I don’t think so. That’s why they can’t reminiscent about the same thing.
That’s why they split up. Because their bond is not as strong as Sam and Dean.
They keep going for the fans, not for the sake of loving each other.
The biggest reason why Dean pick Sam up from Standford, why Sam joined Dean, why Dean could forgive Sam more easily than he did other characters (during season 5 and 6), why Sam forgive Dean is because they’re brothers and they love each other and will do anything for each other.
Compared to Sam and Dean, Ed and Harry was a plastic imitation. Because maybe that’s why the writer wants to show it.
Okay…. first thought …
I appreciate it that people are a bit put out by the writer this episode because they have compared Sam and Dean to Ed and Harry. But there is a diference between them.
What we need to see is not the similarity between Sam/Dean and Ed/Harry but their differences.
1. Ed/Harry doesn’t have that long and epic history like Sam/Dean (child of Destiny)
2. They’re not brothers and doesn’t have Sam/Dean’s level of co-dependency.
3. Sam and Dean can reminiscent about their childhood. I don’t know if Ed and Harry has been friends since childhood or not but I don’t think so. That’s why they can’t reminiscent about the same thing.
That’s why they split up. Because their bond is not as strong as Sam and Dean.
They keep going for the fans, not for the sake of loving each other.
The biggest reason why Dean pick Sam up from Standford, why Sam joined Dean, why Dean could forgive Sam more easily than he did other characters (during season 5 and 6), why Sam forgive Dean is because they’re brothers and they love each other and will do anything for each other.
Compared to Sam and Dean, Ed and Harry was a plastic imitation. Because maybe that’s why the writer wants to show it.
[quote name=”suebsg9″]
I think some of this stuff has to do with the mark I mean as everyone has pointed out Dean would stop from killing a normal person no matter how bad. But since knife was in his hand and in #thinman guy its like not sure who brought it down but if you look at Dean he didn’t flinch.[/quote]
I disagree with this actually. Dean has shown a willingness to kill regular human beings several times over the course of the series, so I don’t think its totally out in left field that he killed a human in this episode. It’s not normal behavior for Dean, but its not unprecedented either. He was ready and willing to kill Max in season 1’s Nightmare and Sam had to really convince him not to do so. Then in season 7’s Repo Man, Dean did indeed kill Jeffrey. Poor deluded Jeffry, even though he was crazy, he was still all human. So, I don’t think Dean would stop from killing a human and he hasn’t stopped from killing a human in the past. Maybe the MoC is making it easier for him or having him question the impulse to kill less, we don’t know yet, TPTB haven’t given enough information for us to draw any conclusions, but Dean has shown a willingness to kill humans and has actually done so in the past.
[quote]
I think some of this stuff has to do with the mark I mean as everyone has pointed out Dean would stop from killing a normal person no matter how bad. But since knife was in his hand and in #thinman guy its like not sure who brought it down but if you look at Dean he didn’t flinch.[/quote]
I disagree with this actually. Dean has shown a willingness to kill regular human beings several times over the course of the series, so I don’t think its totally out in left field that he killed a human in this episode. It’s not normal behavior for Dean, but its not unprecedented either. He was ready and willing to kill Max in season 1’s Nightmare and Sam had to really convince him not to do so. Then in season 7’s Repo Man, Dean did indeed kill Jeffrey. Poor deluded Jeffry, even though he was crazy, he was still all human. So, I don’t think Dean would stop from killing a human and he hasn’t stopped from killing a human in the past. Maybe the MoC is making it easier for him or having him question the impulse to kill less, we don’t know yet, TPTB haven’t given enough information for us to draw any conclusions, but Dean has shown a willingness to kill humans and has actually done so in the past.
[quote name=”lkeke35″] still think the MoC is having some subtle effect on Dean’s behaviour. His knife-work in the last several episodes has had creepiness factor that it didn’t use to have.. And last night ,while Dean was killing Thinman, the camera went to a reaction shot of Sam , meaning Sam noticed something’s off too. I think the writers are just being very subtle about the info. they’re giving us on its effect on Dean. He was very cold about it and didnt even bat an eye after he did it.
But this is just imo, guys.[/quote]
This is interesting and I think you are right. It reminds me of how they slooooooowly let us know that there was something off with Sam in season 6. It was so subtle that I wasn’t even sure it was actually going on in the first episode or two; I was half convinced I was imagining it. Then by episode 6, I was like “what the hell is going on with him?!?!” it was masterful really , and so incredibly creepy. That would be a wonderful thing for Jensen to get to play. If this is the direction that they are going in, I’d like for them to turn up the heat on it a little bit now. It’s time to go to the next level and make the MoC issue more obvious and Dean’s potential danger more obvious too. Having said that tho: I really hope that whatever development happens with the MoC does not derail how the brothers continue to deal with their ‘crap.’ I’d hate to see the MoC issue come along and pull Dean out of the current drama that he has with Sam. I want the brother stuff dealt with, not delayed while Dean has a meltdown, resulting in Sam having to put all his issues on the back burner, never to be addressed again. If Sam spends the remainder of the season saving Dean from the MoC, then what’s going on now will never get address and Sam will look like a dick for “not being able to let it go” while his brother is in peril. If they go that road rather than actually dealing with all the stuff that they’ve brought into the open so far this season then I am going to be P.O’d. That would totally suck out loud.
[quote] still think the MoC is having some subtle effect on Dean’s behaviour. His knife-work in the last several episodes has had creepiness factor that it didn’t use to have.. And last night ,while Dean was killing Thinman, the camera went to a reaction shot of Sam , meaning Sam noticed something’s off too. I think the writers are just being very subtle about the info. they’re giving us on its effect on Dean. He was very cold about it and didnt even bat an eye after he did it.
But this is just imo, guys.[/quote]
This is interesting and I think you are right. It reminds me of how they slooooooowly let us know that there was something off with Sam in season 6. It was so subtle that I wasn’t even sure it was actually going on in the first episode or two; I was half convinced I was imagining it. Then by episode 6, I was like “what the hell is going on with him?!?!” it was masterful really , and so incredibly creepy. That would be a wonderful thing for Jensen to get to play. If this is the direction that they are going in, I’d like for them to turn up the heat on it a little bit now. It’s time to go to the next level and make the MoC issue more obvious and Dean’s potential danger more obvious too. Having said that tho: I really hope that whatever development happens with the MoC does not derail how the brothers continue to deal with their ‘crap.’ I’d hate to see the MoC issue come along and pull Dean out of the current drama that he has with Sam. I want the brother stuff dealt with, not delayed while Dean has a meltdown, resulting in Sam having to put all his issues on the back burner, never to be addressed again. If Sam spends the remainder of the season saving Dean from the MoC, then what’s going on now will never get address and Sam will look like a dick for “not being able to let it go” while his brother is in peril. If they go that road rather than actually dealing with all the stuff that they’ve brought into the open so far this season then I am going to be P.O’d. That would totally suck out loud.
Fair warning: I’m in ‘wordy’ mode.
[quote]By the way, Dark Dean is ‘acoming. Dean’s rather cold murder of a human was marked….see what I did there?[/quote]
Yes, and HA! And I agree EEK! SAMMY DO SOMETHING!
[quote name=”dashnjo”]Dean has always been pretty good with a gun, or a knife or his bare hands but it seems that since he took on the MOC he has been a bit more BAMF and that does worry me but they’ve dropped any mention of it 3 episode ago for the most part. Thats part of my issue with Carver … he brings up these amazing, sometimes scary ideas, and then drops them for episodes at a time without a mention but continues to draw out the angst. Take Changing Channels … starts off with Trickster (yay!) and ends with Gabriel trying to get them to fulfill their roles … maybe that’s what they were trying to do with this episode but just wasn’t the same.[/quote]
Am I the only one that sees the irony of Alistair’s prized pupil taking on the MoC? It’s one of many reasons why “Changing Channels” is my favorite episode. “Hellooooo,” The Tricker is really the archangel Gabriel come to bring them tidings of their destiny during the apocalypse?! The brother who tortured souls in Hell must now be Heaven’s avenging angel? The world has gone upside-down and people are laughing like mad demons….Now said brother is back to basics with hellfire. Pain will (and has) follow(ed)–for the audience, for the season, and for the characters. We await a wild ride to the season finale. BRING BOOZE!
Now I may be more than ready for Crowley’s return, but I have to say the Ghostfacers reappearance was as I expected it to be! I haven’t laughed so hard in so long. People are pissed over the parallel, but screw it! (Occasional use of anvils are awesome! Here’s to “Hunter Heroici!”) The Winchesters were watching it, too. It registered. You could see it on J2’s faces. I think Sam ‘n’ Dean finally have the common ground they’ve been searching for after all these weeks. ISN’T THAT WHAT WE WANTED?! Be careful what you wish for or you might end up with a girl that badly smothers you in love, you know. Now act on it show!
Thank you Ghostfacers for delivering the BEST line of the night on ANY channel! “Thinman likes to hang out by trees and trees hang out in the woods.”
Jenny Klein had me giggling with glee throughout the entire hour with ONE glaring exception. We had a wonderful Weechester story and in an instant it was blown by the “anemic alternative pop.” Cue Kripke: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8SfyBccpCs[/url]! That being said Klein is the woman who brought us the ridiculous marachi music during Dean’s last round of foreplay. Then again “Rock and a Hard Place” was full of over-played scenes. I mean the only things going for that episode was Sam and Sheriff Mills, Dean hilariously turning on the purity circle, and Jensen’s smile while doing it.
Klein if you read this may I suggest a career jump to NBC and join Dan Harmon on my favorite show (GASP! sorry SPNers) Community. You lack a subtly needed on a one hour dramatic program, but that’s to be expected from someone who’s played with the Upright Citizens Brigade and Second City. Your talent for laughs (and “trouble” 😀 ) will not only be useful in sitcoms, but rewarded, and dare I say cherished? Regardless, you’re awesome!
P.S.–
I love that Harry Spangler and Ed Zeddmore aired this week after Harold Ramis (Ghostbuster’s Egon Spengler) passed away.
P.S.S.–
Please remember, whether you like Divine9 or not, that this time last year we ended up with season GR8’s blight of “Man’s Best Friend with Benefits.” No other episode can truly be terrible in comparison.
Fair warning: I’m in ‘wordy’ mode.
[quote]By the way, Dark Dean is ‘acoming. Dean’s rather cold murder of a human was marked….see what I did there?[/quote]
Yes, and HA! And I agree EEK! SAMMY DO SOMETHING!
[quote]Dean has always been pretty good with a gun, or a knife or his bare hands but it seems that since he took on the MOC he has been a bit more BAMF and that does worry me but they’ve dropped any mention of it 3 episode ago for the most part. Thats part of my issue with Carver … he brings up these amazing, sometimes scary ideas, and then drops them for episodes at a time without a mention but continues to draw out the angst. Take Changing Channels … starts off with Trickster (yay!) and ends with Gabriel trying to get them to fulfill their roles … maybe that’s what they were trying to do with this episode but just wasn’t the same.[/quote]
Am I the only one that sees the irony of Alistair’s prized pupil taking on the MoC? It’s one of many reasons why “Changing Channels” is my favorite episode. “Hellooooo,” The Tricker is really the archangel Gabriel come to bring them tidings of their destiny during the apocalypse?! The brother who tortured souls in Hell must now be Heaven’s avenging angel? The world has gone upside-down and people are laughing like mad demons….Now said brother is back to basics with hellfire. Pain will (and has) follow(ed)–for the audience, for the season, and for the characters. We await a wild ride to the season finale. BRING BOOZE!
Now I may be more than ready for Crowley’s return, but I have to say the Ghostfacers reappearance was as I expected it to be! I haven’t laughed so hard in so long. People are pissed over the parallel, but screw it! (Occasional use of anvils are awesome! Here’s to “Hunter Heroici!”) The Winchesters were watching it, too. It registered. You could see it on J2’s faces. I think Sam ‘n’ Dean finally have the common ground they’ve been searching for after all these weeks. ISN’T THAT WHAT WE WANTED?! Be careful what you wish for or you might end up with a girl that badly smothers you in love, you know. Now act on it show!
Thank you Ghostfacers for delivering the BEST line of the night on ANY channel! “Thinman likes to hang out by trees and trees hang out in the woods.”
Jenny Klein had me giggling with glee throughout the entire hour with ONE glaring exception. We had a wonderful Weechester story and in an instant it was blown by the “anemic alternative pop.” Cue Kripke: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8SfyBccpCs[/url]! That being said Klein is the woman who brought us the ridiculous marachi music during Dean’s last round of foreplay. Then again “Rock and a Hard Place” was full of over-played scenes. I mean the only things going for that episode was Sam and Sheriff Mills, Dean hilariously turning on the purity circle, and Jensen’s smile while doing it.
Klein if you read this may I suggest a career jump to NBC and join Dan Harmon on my favorite show (GASP! sorry SPNers) Community. You lack a subtly needed on a one hour dramatic program, but that’s to be expected from someone who’s played with the Upright Citizens Brigade and Second City. Your talent for laughs (and “trouble” 😀 ) will not only be useful in sitcoms, but rewarded, and dare I say cherished? Regardless, you’re awesome!
P.S.–
I love that Harry Spangler and Ed Zeddmore aired this week after Harold Ramis (Ghostbuster’s Egon Spengler) passed away.
P.S.S.–
Please remember, whether you like Divine9 or not, that this time last year we ended up with season GR8’s blight of “Man’s Best Friend with Benefits.” No other episode can truly be terrible in comparison.
I agree with all those above who think Dean is starting to show signs of the MoC- I think it may have been coming on for awhile in previous episodes, but has been obscured by the issues with Sam. So far Dean has just appeared stressed and a bit more violent than usual, which could be easily attributed to The Big Fight (Dean tends to get a bit stabby when separated from Sam). I think we’re creeping towards Dean doing something definitive that even Stubborn and P.O.’d Sam can’t brush off.
Is anyone else actually super excited about this? I kind of feel awful, but I really want to see BAMF Dean level a city or something. I was having flashbacks to that S1 episode where the shapeshifter turns into Dean and kicks the crap out of Sam. So wrong, and yet somehow so right…
I wrote a big long post elsewhere about how I think it’ll all end with Sam being “Colette”: “She knew who I was and what I was. She forgave me. She just asked for one thing.” Sam has never been angrier or more disillusioned with Dean in his life, and Show is making it clear that Sam still loves him. I also have a theory that when Dean finally understands that even when Sam has “left,” even when they’ve been apart, even when Dean was in Purgatory, Sam never actually stopped loving him EVER, he’ll feel far more secure about their relationship- secure to the point where he will no longer need Sam constantly nearby to reassure him. When he gets that Sam can love him from all 48 contiguous states regardless of whether Sam is with him hunting or not, the “letting Sam go” learning curve will become easier to deal with. It would be hugely transformative for both of them and a good way to end the series. That said, I definitely hope they get there well before the series end, so we can see the boys kick ass and deal with their other fores while emotionally more solid than they’ve ever been!
I’ve heard that this and the Crowley episode were switched in order, so I don’t expect a lot of movement then, though we may finally get some more substantive mytharc with Crowley back in town! For Sam and Dean development, I’ll be waiting for the next episode after that.
I agree with all those above who think Dean is starting to show signs of the MoC- I think it may have been coming on for awhile in previous episodes, but has been obscured by the issues with Sam. So far Dean has just appeared stressed and a bit more violent than usual, which could be easily attributed to The Big Fight (Dean tends to get a bit stabby when separated from Sam). I think we’re creeping towards Dean doing something definitive that even Stubborn and P.O.’d Sam can’t brush off.
Is anyone else actually super excited about this? I kind of feel awful, but I really want to see BAMF Dean level a city or something. I was having flashbacks to that S1 episode where the shapeshifter turns into Dean and kicks the crap out of Sam. So wrong, and yet somehow so right…
I wrote a big long post elsewhere about how I think it’ll all end with Sam being “Colette”: “She knew who I was and what I was. She forgave me. She just asked for one thing.” Sam has never been angrier or more disillusioned with Dean in his life, and Show is making it clear that Sam still loves him. I also have a theory that when Dean finally understands that even when Sam has “left,” even when they’ve been apart, even when Dean was in Purgatory, Sam never actually stopped loving him EVER, he’ll feel far more secure about their relationship- secure to the point where he will no longer need Sam constantly nearby to reassure him. When he gets that Sam can love him from all 48 contiguous states regardless of whether Sam is with him hunting or not, the “letting Sam go” learning curve will become easier to deal with. It would be hugely transformative for both of them and a good way to end the series. That said, I definitely hope they get there well before the series end, so we can see the boys kick ass and deal with their other fores while emotionally more solid than they’ve ever been!
I’ve heard that this and the Crowley episode were switched in order, so I don’t expect a lot of movement then, though we may finally get some more substantive mytharc with Crowley back in town! For Sam and Dean development, I’ll be waiting for the next episode after that.
Gah, I missed the most important part of the Colette quote! “She loved me unconditionally.” That was my whole damn point!
Gah, I missed the most important part of the Colette quote! “She loved me unconditionally.” That was my whole damn point!
JAYTEE, she loved me unconditionally sounds way more like Castiel’s love for Dean
Cheryl42, I agree that the anvils were for fans. Ed lied. Harry chose to change his life (say yes to the supernatural). Harry was not emotionally abusive nor did he tear apart Ed And Ed’s life’s work.
JAYTEE, she loved me unconditionally sounds way more like Castiel’s love for Dean
Cheryl42, I agree that the anvils were for fans. Ed lied. Harry chose to change his life (say yes to the supernatural). Harry was not emotionally abusive nor did he tear apart Ed And Ed’s life’s work.
Erm, I just posted comments here and received an email response to one (i.e. someone had to read it?), but they’re gone? Surely they can’t’ve been modded that quickly, and I didn’t think I said anything outlandish- I was specc’ing on the MoC.
I also wanted to respond to Kaj. I believe it’s been established in previous episodes that Ed and Harry are indeed childhood friends. That’s what nappi was referring to earlier when she mentioned that they were a particularly good pair to mirror this. They don’t have the same history as SamnDean, but it’s likely the closest they’ll get from any recurring characters on the show, in that they do have such a long, tight history. Their issues fit with their “pay grade”- the GFs wouldn’t go anywhere near angels, and I’d guess they never had to have life-saving conversations. So the issues they’re having are huge in their world.
Erm, I just posted comments here and received an email response to one (i.e. someone had to read it?), but they’re gone? Surely they can’t’ve been modded that quickly, and I didn’t think I said anything outlandish- I was specc’ing on the MoC.
I also wanted to respond to Kaj. I believe it’s been established in previous episodes that Ed and Harry are indeed childhood friends. That’s what nappi was referring to earlier when she mentioned that they were a particularly good pair to mirror this. They don’t have the same history as SamnDean, but it’s likely the closest they’ll get from any recurring characters on the show, in that they do have such a long, tight history. Their issues fit with their “pay grade”- the GFs wouldn’t go anywhere near angels, and I’d guess they never had to have life-saving conversations. So the issues they’re having are huge in their world.
[quote name=”Jaytee”]I’ve heard that this and the Crowley episode were switched in order, so I don’t expect a lot of movement then, though we may finally get some more substantive mytharc with Crowley back in town! For Sam and Dean development, I’ll be waiting for the next episode after that.[/quote]
So it WAS a Ramis tribute?! AWESOME!
I’m still ready for Crowley! You know the casting has been good when you’re looking forward to hearing from the King of Hell. Both Marks (Sheppard and Pellegrino) have been my favorite villains on this show. I do enjoy Yellow Eyes and Alistair’s creepy Brando voice. But M2 are simply the best! Semi-villainesses Lauren Cohan and Katie Cassidy were great, too!
[quote]I’ve heard that this and the Crowley episode were switched in order, so I don’t expect a lot of movement then, though we may finally get some more substantive mytharc with Crowley back in town! For Sam and Dean development, I’ll be waiting for the next episode after that.[/quote]
So it WAS a Ramis tribute?! AWESOME!
I’m still ready for Crowley! You know the casting has been good when you’re looking forward to hearing from the King of Hell. Both Marks (Sheppard and Pellegrino) have been my favorite villains on this show. I do enjoy Yellow Eyes and Alistair’s creepy Brando voice. But M2 are simply the best! Semi-villainesses Lauren Cohan and Katie Cassidy were great, too!
“Before the lies, before the heartache, we were out there to help people.”
I didn’t see Ed and Harry’s story as a parallel story meant to be the all to obvious version Sam and Dean. Ed and Harry were not meant to be compared to the brothers. Who can be compared to the Winchesters? Who would be foolish enough to do that? They were meant to be FOR the brothers.
Let me first pose this question:
why do we love Sam and Dean Winchester? Because we find that these boys fight demons, search for identity and strive to make the world better. Are we not all doing this on some level? We all make mistakes and we work to make reparation for them. Have not Sam and Dean done this dance year after year? Good intentions, bad outcome? Hello Ed and Harry.
Sam and Dean are at a stalemate with their relationship. They have said their part and without something or someone to intervene in some way, it won’t get resolved, one way or another. Ed and Harry were meant to show Sam and Dean something; they were meant to give each a chance to see their side of the story from a different POV. It allowed us to see that Sam wants to “be brothers again” and that Dean is sorry. But neither can move on to do this alone. Ed and Harry were the universe’s way of giving the boys a chance to see themselves from the outside and to see the others side.
Notice how both of them watched Ed and Harry break up at the end? Not their usual custom to eavesdrop on drama. It’s because they were compelled to watch the same problems they are dealing with work itself out in another dimension, namely, Lies causing problems and hurting people.
The last conversation, with Harry’s talk of the empty chair, you could feel the weight of the conversation right through the television. Both boys wanted to answer. You could feel the aching, you saw their pained faces. They wanted to say they understood. But they didn’t want to admit it or rather; they didn’t want to say in front of the other. It also reminded Sam of what it was like to be without Dean for that year and, For a moment he almost seemed to understand the Why of Dean’s actions. Meanwhile, Dean’s soul was being ripped up with guilt. He wishes he could be different, that he could give Sam what he wanted. He knows he isn’t capable of being different. (Five year old Sammy w/broken arm? Dean always fixing Sam.) But truly, he is very sorry for what he did.
So what makes Ed and Harry different from Sam and Dean?
Family.
The boys are realizing that with out being family, they are just like these two. Broken beyond the repair.
And even when they try, they can’t not be brothers.
This is good. They are getting closer to getting fixed. Things are about to get better…just in time for Dean to go really, really bad.
Did you not love that Sam mentioning the baby chimp falling out of the tree reminded Dean of five year old Sam! Weechesters. I love it!!
“Before the lies, before the heartache, we were out there to help people.”
I didn’t see Ed and Harry’s story as a parallel story meant to be the all to obvious version Sam and Dean. Ed and Harry were not meant to be compared to the brothers. Who can be compared to the Winchesters? Who would be foolish enough to do that? They were meant to be FOR the brothers.
Let me first pose this question:
why do we love Sam and Dean Winchester? Because we find that these boys fight demons, search for identity and strive to make the world better. Are we not all doing this on some level? We all make mistakes and we work to make reparation for them. Have not Sam and Dean done this dance year after year? Good intentions, bad outcome? Hello Ed and Harry.
Sam and Dean are at a stalemate with their relationship. They have said their part and without something or someone to intervene in some way, it won’t get resolved, one way or another. Ed and Harry were meant to show Sam and Dean something; they were meant to give each a chance to see their side of the story from a different POV. It allowed us to see that Sam wants to “be brothers again” and that Dean is sorry. But neither can move on to do this alone. Ed and Harry were the universe’s way of giving the boys a chance to see themselves from the outside and to see the others side.
Notice how both of them watched Ed and Harry break up at the end? Not their usual custom to eavesdrop on drama. It’s because they were compelled to watch the same problems they are dealing with work itself out in another dimension, namely, Lies causing problems and hurting people.
The last conversation, with Harry’s talk of the empty chair, you could feel the weight of the conversation right through the television. Both boys wanted to answer. You could feel the aching, you saw their pained faces. They wanted to say they understood. But they didn’t want to admit it or rather; they didn’t want to say in front of the other. It also reminded Sam of what it was like to be without Dean for that year and, For a moment he almost seemed to understand the Why of Dean’s actions. Meanwhile, Dean’s soul was being ripped up with guilt. He wishes he could be different, that he could give Sam what he wanted. He knows he isn’t capable of being different. (Five year old Sammy w/broken arm? Dean always fixing Sam.) But truly, he is very sorry for what he did.
So what makes Ed and Harry different from Sam and Dean?
Family.
The boys are realizing that with out being family, they are just like these two. Broken beyond the repair.
And even when they try, they can’t not be brothers.
This is good. They are getting closer to getting fixed. Things are about to get better…just in time for Dean to go really, really bad.
Did you not love that Sam mentioning the baby chimp falling out of the tree reminded Dean of five year old Sam! Weechesters. I love it!!
Okay…. first thought …
I appreciate it that people are a bit put out by the writer this episode because they have compared Sam and Dean to Ed and Harry. But there is a difference between them.
What we need to see is not the similarity between Sam/Dean and Ed/Harry but their differences.
1. Ed/Harry doesn’t have that long and epic history like Sam/Dean (child of Destiny)
2. They’re not brothers and doesn’t have Sam/Dean’s level of co-dependency.
3. Sam and Dean can reminiscent about their childhood. I don’t know if Ed and Harry has been friends since childhood or not but I don’t think so. That’s why they can’t reminiscent about the same thing.
That’s why they split up. Because their bond is not as strong as Sam and Dean.
They keep going for the fans, not for the sake of loving each other.
The biggest reason why Dean pick Sam up from Standford, why Sam joined Dean, why Dean could forgive Sam more easily than he did other characters (during season 5 and 6), why Sam forgive Dean is because they’re brothers and they love each other and will do anything for each other.
Compared to Sam and Dean, Ed and Harry was a plastic imitation. Because maybe that’s why the writer wants to show it.
Okay…. first thought …
I appreciate it that people are a bit put out by the writer this episode because they have compared Sam and Dean to Ed and Harry. But there is a difference between them.
What we need to see is not the similarity between Sam/Dean and Ed/Harry but their differences.
1. Ed/Harry doesn’t have that long and epic history like Sam/Dean (child of Destiny)
2. They’re not brothers and doesn’t have Sam/Dean’s level of co-dependency.
3. Sam and Dean can reminiscent about their childhood. I don’t know if Ed and Harry has been friends since childhood or not but I don’t think so. That’s why they can’t reminiscent about the same thing.
That’s why they split up. Because their bond is not as strong as Sam and Dean.
They keep going for the fans, not for the sake of loving each other.
The biggest reason why Dean pick Sam up from Standford, why Sam joined Dean, why Dean could forgive Sam more easily than he did other characters (during season 5 and 6), why Sam forgive Dean is because they’re brothers and they love each other and will do anything for each other.
Compared to Sam and Dean, Ed and Harry was a plastic imitation. Because maybe that’s why the writer wants to show it.
Jaytee, I think you saw that your previous post was there, but it probably took a while to show. I do apologize, but we’ve been having lags with the commenting system. It’s probably due to the fact we’re under some heavy spam attacks. We will be switching to a new commenting system this weekend (unless the upgrade goes very wrong) so bear with us for just a little while longer! Thanks.
Jaytee, I think you saw that your previous post was there, but it probably took a while to show. I do apologize, but we’ve been having lags with the commenting system. It’s probably due to the fact we’re under some heavy spam attacks. We will be switching to a new commenting system this weekend (unless the upgrade goes very wrong) so bear with us for just a little while longer! Thanks.
I think the Thinman wa screepy in all sense, but most of all I have liked that in every episode the brothers dilemma has moved forward. Sometimes subtle and sometimes not. In this episode it was like a hammer hit on our heads. It was pretty clear, but there was also some subtle hints about things to come.
Ghostfacers like Snooki has lifted different kinds of emotions from people. I like that Supernatural has variations. I don’t know who Snooki was and now I do know I don’t care about it. Whoever acts/is character on Supernatural I will keep an open mind and not go ballistic about it.
What I do care is that they have swept the MoC under the rug and it drives me insane. (In a good way) But I think the effect is there. In this episode the brothers are still being apart. In the opening Dean has almost given up/Not even caring if some comes with or not to hunt. Sam makes the choice to come. Their bickering about the Thinman and Dean having his own laptop and searching things on his own? When he has ever done that? It’s usually Sam that does it.
Dean’s remarks also effect Sam. His face shows it many times during this episode. But also we are seeing not caring and hollow Dean at the end. The famous Dean kills a monster that is just a human. Not possessed. And the way he does it? That makes a chills go through my spine. He does it emotionless looking down at his prey. Even if the guy is pleading him not kill him he slowly pushes the dagger to his heart. He looks at Sam that clearly crumbles his forehead.
Also, as I have watched the previous seasons how Dean acted on the chair tied up and almost sliced from throat? We get reaction from Sam. Dean has no swift remarks nor he doesn’t even try to prevent it.
Maybe because how they feel Sam doesn’t react that much to the clear signs something is wrong but he does show it. The talk outside after and him saying the killers were just human was directed to Dean and he answers it coldly while talking about disposing the bodies. If this is heading and how “Dark Dean” will be. I don’t know about you but I would run.
The episode had some hope flashing on little things and also hearts crushing on what was said and how still the brothers long to be brothers.
This is what I saw. As both actors are so good to show little things to us. I have started to appreciate them and focus on the episodes. It gives a lot if you just focus on what it offers, not what you dislike. (Like Ghostfacers are to some)
Lilah the hopeful
I think the Thinman wa screepy in all sense, but most of all I have liked that in every episode the brothers dilemma has moved forward. Sometimes subtle and sometimes not. In this episode it was like a hammer hit on our heads. It was pretty clear, but there was also some subtle hints about things to come.
Ghostfacers like Snooki has lifted different kinds of emotions from people. I like that Supernatural has variations. I don’t know who Snooki was and now I do know I don’t care about it. Whoever acts/is character on Supernatural I will keep an open mind and not go ballistic about it.
What I do care is that they have swept the MoC under the rug and it drives me insane. (In a good way) But I think the effect is there. In this episode the brothers are still being apart. In the opening Dean has almost given up/Not even caring if some comes with or not to hunt. Sam makes the choice to come. Their bickering about the Thinman and Dean having his own laptop and searching things on his own? When he has ever done that? It’s usually Sam that does it.
Dean’s remarks also effect Sam. His face shows it many times during this episode. But also we are seeing not caring and hollow Dean at the end. The famous Dean kills a monster that is just a human. Not possessed. And the way he does it? That makes a chills go through my spine. He does it emotionless looking down at his prey. Even if the guy is pleading him not kill him he slowly pushes the dagger to his heart. He looks at Sam that clearly crumbles his forehead.
Also, as I have watched the previous seasons how Dean acted on the chair tied up and almost sliced from throat? We get reaction from Sam. Dean has no swift remarks nor he doesn’t even try to prevent it.
Maybe because how they feel Sam doesn’t react that much to the clear signs something is wrong but he does show it. The talk outside after and him saying the killers were just human was directed to Dean and he answers it coldly while talking about disposing the bodies. If this is heading and how “Dark Dean” will be. I don’t know about you but I would run.
The episode had some hope flashing on little things and also hearts crushing on what was said and how still the brothers long to be brothers.
This is what I saw. As both actors are so good to show little things to us. I have started to appreciate them and focus on the episodes. It gives a lot if you just focus on what it offers, not what you dislike. (Like Ghostfacers are to some)
Lilah the hopeful
[quote name=”Jaytee”] I think we’re creeping towards Dean doing something definitive that even Stubborn and P.O.’d Sam can’t brush off.
Is anyone else actually super excited about this? I kind of feel awful, but I really want to see BAMF Dean level a city or something. I was having flashbacks to that S1 episode where the shapeshifter turns into Dean and kicks the crap out of Sam. So wrong, and yet somehow so right…[/quote]
It’s interesting, this quote pretty much frames my biggest anticipation AND my biggest fear. Yes, it would be exciting and awesome for Dean to have this kind of arc; he’s never really known what its like to battle dark impulses, to be compelled down a dark and evil road and have to fight against an evil that comes within (something that Sam knows all too well). It would be a great learning curve for Dean to finally be able to understand what Sam had to go through all those years ago. Dean has been shown to condemn Sam for his actions in past seasons STILL, indicating that he really does not understand his brother. I would certainly welcome Dean an education of this sort not to mention that the story in and of itself is pretty cool and interesting and could go in so many awesome directions.
But I also worry that for Sam that Dean’s dark road will lead to exactly what you say: “something even stubborn and P.O’d Sam can’t brush off”. I am worried that Sam will be forced to drop everything that he is JUSTIFIABLY angry about right now because of what’s going on with Dean and that the resolution of not only this season’s problems but the underlying issues in the brother’s entire relationship will have to be put on hold while the MoC is dealt with. And when it’s all finally resolved (because it will be) Dean will call it a mark in the win column and move on, never addressing anything or dealing with anything and we’ll be right back where we were with Sam as a non-person in this relationship. THAT is something that I DON’T want. I don’t want TPTB to use the MoC to get themselves out of all of the current emotional conflicts that they have spent so much time bringing up this season. The issues between the brother’s are important to how they will function for the rest of their lives, and I’d hate to see it shoved under the carpet or avoided. What I hope will happen is that Dean’s dark road will lead to Sam saving him which in turn will lead Dean to a better understanding of what makes Sam tick and Sam understanding Dean’s saving him in season 9 and finally some resolution to all of their underlying problems. A girl can hope!
[quote] I think we’re creeping towards Dean doing something definitive that even Stubborn and P.O.’d Sam can’t brush off.
Is anyone else actually super excited about this? I kind of feel awful, but I really want to see BAMF Dean level a city or something. I was having flashbacks to that S1 episode where the shapeshifter turns into Dean and kicks the crap out of Sam. So wrong, and yet somehow so right…[/quote]
It’s interesting, this quote pretty much frames my biggest anticipation AND my biggest fear. Yes, it would be exciting and awesome for Dean to have this kind of arc; he’s never really known what its like to battle dark impulses, to be compelled down a dark and evil road and have to fight against an evil that comes within (something that Sam knows all too well). It would be a great learning curve for Dean to finally be able to understand what Sam had to go through all those years ago. Dean has been shown to condemn Sam for his actions in past seasons STILL, indicating that he really does not understand his brother. I would certainly welcome Dean an education of this sort not to mention that the story in and of itself is pretty cool and interesting and could go in so many awesome directions.
But I also worry that for Sam that Dean’s dark road will lead to exactly what you say: “something even stubborn and P.O’d Sam can’t brush off”. I am worried that Sam will be forced to drop everything that he is JUSTIFIABLY angry about right now because of what’s going on with Dean and that the resolution of not only this season’s problems but the underlying issues in the brother’s entire relationship will have to be put on hold while the MoC is dealt with. And when it’s all finally resolved (because it will be) Dean will call it a mark in the win column and move on, never addressing anything or dealing with anything and we’ll be right back where we were with Sam as a non-person in this relationship. THAT is something that I DON’T want. I don’t want TPTB to use the MoC to get themselves out of all of the current emotional conflicts that they have spent so much time bringing up this season. The issues between the brother’s are important to how they will function for the rest of their lives, and I’d hate to see it shoved under the carpet or avoided. What I hope will happen is that Dean’s dark road will lead to Sam saving him which in turn will lead Dean to a better understanding of what makes Sam tick and Sam understanding Dean’s saving him in season 9 and finally some resolution to all of their underlying problems. A girl can hope!
i don’t agree at all with the statement that sam is being stubborn. but as e has stated, he’s justifiably po’d. dean is the one who is being stubborn. he’s the one who is adhering to his i did what was right stance damned the consequences without fully acknowledging what it is he has done wrong and comprehending why it is that sam is justifiably pissed off.
i don’t break easy isn’t the comment of an understanding brother who comprehends sam’s frustration towards his brother’s attitude of just wanting to sweep everything dean had done under the rug and put a few wins in their column. sam is being anything but stubborn. he’s just someone trying to deal.
e i don’t think we’ve gotten this far to just sweep it all under the rug, because if that was the case it would have happened by now. 😉 . no i think resolution between the boys is coming before the moc storyline starts to be explored more fully.
i do think the writers are using subtle ways to let us know that story is indeed not forgotten. i think the moc works in much the same way as the db for sam. when sam was taking more db we the audience and dean didn’t really much notice any change in sam’s behavior. it wasn’t until sex and violence where there was a noticable change in sam. when he was infected by the siren, on top of the db, his attitude took quite a turn…it was pam in dtah that pointed out in sam that she could feel what was inside him. it wasn’t til what happened bet sam and dean in wtlb that had sam admit to ruby in lr that he had changed.
i think the moc is going to be more of a subtle approach for the moment. i think that sam and dean will first resolve their issues before they start focusing on the moc storyline…
i wouldn’t worry e..try not to let fear take over. if you look at it logically, if sam and dean’s issues were to be swept under the rug, then we wouldn’t be where we are right now and we certainly wouldn’t have had any reason for this episode.
i don’t agree at all with the statement that sam is being stubborn. but as e has stated, he’s justifiably po’d. dean is the one who is being stubborn. he’s the one who is adhering to his i did what was right stance damned the consequences without fully acknowledging what it is he has done wrong and comprehending why it is that sam is justifiably pissed off.
i don’t break easy isn’t the comment of an understanding brother who comprehends sam’s frustration towards his brother’s attitude of just wanting to sweep everything dean had done under the rug and put a few wins in their column. sam is being anything but stubborn. he’s just someone trying to deal.
e i don’t think we’ve gotten this far to just sweep it all under the rug, because if that was the case it would have happened by now. 😉 . no i think resolution between the boys is coming before the moc storyline starts to be explored more fully.
i do think the writers are using subtle ways to let us know that story is indeed not forgotten. i think the moc works in much the same way as the db for sam. when sam was taking more db we the audience and dean didn’t really much notice any change in sam’s behavior. it wasn’t until sex and violence where there was a noticable change in sam. when he was infected by the siren, on top of the db, his attitude took quite a turn…it was pam in dtah that pointed out in sam that she could feel what was inside him. it wasn’t til what happened bet sam and dean in wtlb that had sam admit to ruby in lr that he had changed.
i think the moc is going to be more of a subtle approach for the moment. i think that sam and dean will first resolve their issues before they start focusing on the moc storyline…
i wouldn’t worry e..try not to let fear take over. if you look at it logically, if sam and dean’s issues were to be swept under the rug, then we wouldn’t be where we are right now and we certainly wouldn’t have had any reason for this episode.
[quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t agree at all with the statement that sam is being stubborn. but as e has stated, he’s justifiably po’d. dean is the one who is being stubborn. he’s the one who is adhering to his i did what was right stance damned the consequences without fully acknowledging what it is he has done wrong and comprehending why it is that sam is justifiably pissed off.
i don’t break easy isn’t the comment of an understanding brother who comprehends sam’s frustration towards his brother’s attitude of just wanting to sweep everything dean had done under the rug and put a few wins in their column. sam is being anything but stubborn. he’s just someone trying to deal.
e i don’t think we’ve gotten this far to just sweep it all under the rug, because if that was the case it would have happened by now. 😉 . no i think resolution between the boys is coming before the moc storyline starts to be explored more fully.
i do think the writers are using subtle ways to let us know that story is indeed not forgotten. i think the moc works in much the same way as the db for sam. when sam was taking more db we the audience and dean didn’t really much notice any change in sam’s behavior. it wasn’t until sex and violence where there was a noticable change in sam. when he was infected by the siren, on top of the db, his attitude took quite a turn…it was pam in dtah that pointed out in sam that she could feel what was inside him. it wasn’t til what happened bet sam and dean in wtlb that had sam admit to ruby in lr that he had changed.
i think the moc is going to be more of a subtle approach for the moment. i think that sam and dean will first resolve their issues before they start focusing on the moc storyline…
i wouldn’t worry e..try not to let fear take over. if you look at it logically, if sam and dean’s issues were to be swept under the rug, then we wouldn’t be where we are right now and we certainly wouldn’t have had any reason for this episode.[/quote]
Spoilers ahead a little bit. In the Synopsis of Blade Runners and Mother’s little helper the MoC is going overdrive. So I don’t know how the brothers issues will be solved during those. (And next episode Blade Runners we need to wait for a week because small hiatus…) Waiting is torture but I can wait.
[quote]i don’t agree at all with the statement that sam is being stubborn. but as e has stated, he’s justifiably po’d. dean is the one who is being stubborn. he’s the one who is adhering to his i did what was right stance damned the consequences without fully acknowledging what it is he has done wrong and comprehending why it is that sam is justifiably pissed off.
i don’t break easy isn’t the comment of an understanding brother who comprehends sam’s frustration towards his brother’s attitude of just wanting to sweep everything dean had done under the rug and put a few wins in their column. sam is being anything but stubborn. he’s just someone trying to deal.
e i don’t think we’ve gotten this far to just sweep it all under the rug, because if that was the case it would have happened by now. 😉 . no i think resolution between the boys is coming before the moc storyline starts to be explored more fully.
i do think the writers are using subtle ways to let us know that story is indeed not forgotten. i think the moc works in much the same way as the db for sam. when sam was taking more db we the audience and dean didn’t really much notice any change in sam’s behavior. it wasn’t until sex and violence where there was a noticable change in sam. when he was infected by the siren, on top of the db, his attitude took quite a turn…it was pam in dtah that pointed out in sam that she could feel what was inside him. it wasn’t til what happened bet sam and dean in wtlb that had sam admit to ruby in lr that he had changed.
i think the moc is going to be more of a subtle approach for the moment. i think that sam and dean will first resolve their issues before they start focusing on the moc storyline…
i wouldn’t worry e..try not to let fear take over. if you look at it logically, if sam and dean’s issues were to be swept under the rug, then we wouldn’t be where we are right now and we certainly wouldn’t have had any reason for this episode.[/quote]
Spoilers ahead a little bit. In the Synopsis of Blade Runners and Mother’s little helper the MoC is going overdrive. So I don’t know how the brothers issues will be solved during those. (And next episode Blade Runners we need to wait for a week because small hiatus…) Waiting is torture but I can wait.
[quote name=”Lilah Kane”][quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t agree at all with the statement that sam is being stubborn. but as e has stated, he’s justifiably po’d. dean is the one who is being stubborn. he’s the one who is adhering to his i did what was right stance damned the consequences without fully acknowledging what it is he has done wrong and comprehending why it is that sam is justifiably pissed off.
i don’t break easy isn’t the comment of an understanding brother who comprehends sam’s frustration towards his brother’s attitude of just wanting to sweep everything dean had done under the rug and put a few wins in their column. sam is being anything but stubborn. he’s just someone trying to deal.
e i don’t think we’ve gotten this far to just sweep it all under the rug, because if that was the case it would have happened by now. 😉 . no i think resolution between the boys is coming before the moc storyline starts to be explored more fully.
i do think the writers are using subtle ways to let us know that story is indeed not forgotten. i think the moc works in much the same way as the db for sam. when sam was taking more db we the audience and dean didn’t really much notice any change in sam’s behavior. it wasn’t until sex and violence where there was a noticable change in sam. when he was infected by the siren, on top of the db, his attitude took quite a turn…it was pam in dtah that pointed out in sam that she could feel what was inside him. it wasn’t til what happened bet sam and dean in wtlb that had sam admit to ruby in lr that he had changed.
i think the moc is going to be more of a subtle approach for the moment. i think that sam and dean will first resolve their issues before they start focusing on the moc storyline…
i wouldn’t worry e..try not to let fear take over. if you look at it logically, if sam and dean’s issues were to be swept under the rug, then we wouldn’t be where we are right now and we certainly wouldn’t have had any reason for this episode.[/quote]
Spoilers ahead a little bit. In the Synopsis of Blade Runners and Mother’s little helper the MoC is going overdrive. So I don’t know how the brothers issues will be solved during those. (And next episode Blade Runners we need to wait for a week because small hiatus…) Waiting is torture but I can wait.[/quote]
i saw that too. i still wouldn’t worry about the boys issues not being resolved soon though. blade runners was originally supposed to be this tuesday’s ep. so it would make sense that the boys are still kind of at a standstill. thinman is supposed to be the eye opener i believe, getting us that one step closer. since mother’s little helper was originally following thinman, i don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to believe that the beginning and the end of that ep might touch on the boys relationship.
i still think it’s possible to do two things at once. they can resolve their problems and then put focus on the moc story. since mother’s little helper originally followed thinman, we really don’t know if dean is aware of any affects of the mark. his not wanting to go hunting could be the affect without either boy realizing that it’s the moc that’s the reason dean doesn’t want to go. unless something happened off screen that has dean is concerned about .
i guess i just don’t see any reason to believe that sam and dean won’t resolve things …didn’t the writers say they had to destruct to rebuild. well i can’t imagine they’re not going to show us the rebuild. not including blade runners cuz we know it’s out of order, we have 5 eps to go ..i think one of those eps is going to be devoted to fixing their relationship..i really believe s10 is the season without issues…
that’s just me. 😉
[quote][quote]i don’t agree at all with the statement that sam is being stubborn. but as e has stated, he’s justifiably po’d. dean is the one who is being stubborn. he’s the one who is adhering to his i did what was right stance damned the consequences without fully acknowledging what it is he has done wrong and comprehending why it is that sam is justifiably pissed off.
i don’t break easy isn’t the comment of an understanding brother who comprehends sam’s frustration towards his brother’s attitude of just wanting to sweep everything dean had done under the rug and put a few wins in their column. sam is being anything but stubborn. he’s just someone trying to deal.
e i don’t think we’ve gotten this far to just sweep it all under the rug, because if that was the case it would have happened by now. 😉 . no i think resolution between the boys is coming before the moc storyline starts to be explored more fully.
i do think the writers are using subtle ways to let us know that story is indeed not forgotten. i think the moc works in much the same way as the db for sam. when sam was taking more db we the audience and dean didn’t really much notice any change in sam’s behavior. it wasn’t until sex and violence where there was a noticable change in sam. when he was infected by the siren, on top of the db, his attitude took quite a turn…it was pam in dtah that pointed out in sam that she could feel what was inside him. it wasn’t til what happened bet sam and dean in wtlb that had sam admit to ruby in lr that he had changed.
i think the moc is going to be more of a subtle approach for the moment. i think that sam and dean will first resolve their issues before they start focusing on the moc storyline…
i wouldn’t worry e..try not to let fear take over. if you look at it logically, if sam and dean’s issues were to be swept under the rug, then we wouldn’t be where we are right now and we certainly wouldn’t have had any reason for this episode.[/quote]
Spoilers ahead a little bit. In the Synopsis of Blade Runners and Mother’s little helper the MoC is going overdrive. So I don’t know how the brothers issues will be solved during those. (And next episode Blade Runners we need to wait for a week because small hiatus…) Waiting is torture but I can wait.[/quote]
i saw that too. i still wouldn’t worry about the boys issues not being resolved soon though. blade runners was originally supposed to be this tuesday’s ep. so it would make sense that the boys are still kind of at a standstill. thinman is supposed to be the eye opener i believe, getting us that one step closer. since mother’s little helper was originally following thinman, i don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to believe that the beginning and the end of that ep might touch on the boys relationship.
i still think it’s possible to do two things at once. they can resolve their problems and then put focus on the moc story. since mother’s little helper originally followed thinman, we really don’t know if dean is aware of any affects of the mark. his not wanting to go hunting could be the affect without either boy realizing that it’s the moc that’s the reason dean doesn’t want to go. unless something happened off screen that has dean is concerned about .
i guess i just don’t see any reason to believe that sam and dean won’t resolve things …didn’t the writers say they had to destruct to rebuild. well i can’t imagine they’re not going to show us the rebuild. not including blade runners cuz we know it’s out of order, we have 5 eps to go ..i think one of those eps is going to be devoted to fixing their relationship..i really believe s10 is the season without issues…
that’s just me. 😉
[quote name=”Puck”]
(Occasional use of anvils are awesome! Here’s to “Hunter Heroici!”) The Winchesters were watching it, too. It registered. You could see it on J2’s faces. I think Sam ‘n’ Dean finally have the common ground they’ve been searching for after all these weeks. ISN’T THAT WHAT WE WANTED?! [/quote]
Absolutely, they are this close now. (makes tiny fingers gesture) Maybe Dean still “can’t” apologize for saving Sam, but he can apologize for the lies and the gaslighting and Crowley and the needles in the head, and that would be a great baby step.
[quote name=”Puck”] Be careful what you wish for or you might end up with a girl that badly smothers you in love, you know. [/quote]
Ha ha ha! Hey, if the Cain story repeats itself, that’s exactly what Dean ends up with. That would be a riot.
Speaking of, love your sense of humor Puck. You haz a tumblr?
[quote name=”Puck”]
P.S.S.–
Please remember, whether you like Divine9 or not, that this time last year we ended up with season GR8’s blight of “Man’s Best Friend with Benefits.” No other episode can truly be terrible in comparison.[/quote]
Oh noez! The horror! The horror of that ep! We must not speak of it.
Hell, I loved Thinman, and now it’s even better!
[quote]
(Occasional use of anvils are awesome! Here’s to “Hunter Heroici!”) The Winchesters were watching it, too. It registered. You could see it on J2’s faces. I think Sam ‘n’ Dean finally have the common ground they’ve been searching for after all these weeks. ISN’T THAT WHAT WE WANTED?! [/quote]
Absolutely, they are this close now. (makes tiny fingers gesture) Maybe Dean still “can’t” apologize for saving Sam, but he can apologize for the lies and the gaslighting and Crowley and the needles in the head, and that would be a great baby step.
[quote] Be careful what you wish for or you might end up with a girl that badly smothers you in love, you know. [/quote]
Ha ha ha! Hey, if the Cain story repeats itself, that’s exactly what Dean ends up with. That would be a riot.
Speaking of, love your sense of humor Puck. You haz a tumblr?
[quote]
P.S.S.–
Please remember, whether you like Divine9 or not, that this time last year we ended up with season GR8’s blight of “Man’s Best Friend with Benefits.” No other episode can truly be terrible in comparison.[/quote]
Oh noez! The horror! The horror of that ep! We must not speak of it.
Hell, I loved Thinman, and now it’s even better!
It would be a great step! Question: Dean ends up with what? I was referring to “wishful thinking.” But thanks Rick D! I do hhave tumblr but I chose this over my blank tumblr. I like WordPress and my blog is at amARTMEDIA.wordpress.com
By watching it over again and what is being said it seems maybe Sam can forgive Dean for some things but not all of it. So I am really not sure where the brothers can go from here?? I mean even if Dean does apologize really Sam won’t really forgive Dean for everything? So its like something dramatic would have to happen I mean its like Dean has come so close to getting killed and Sam ends up yelling NO. But to me you watch when ‘thinman’ or whatever the guys name is about to kill Dean and he seems like he accepts that fate. Either this maybe resolved this season or we get something but as Sam says I think he can forgive Dean for somethings but not sure he can forgive him for everything. So I wonder how much will go into S10. I mean they can work together but they can talk a bit but its like at the end you gotta wonder will they end up going their separate ways. I mean Sam may need to show Dean that light if he goes dark. And Dean may have to let Sam grow old without him and I don’t mean that Dean will die just that he keeps hunting without Sam. Sam be a MOL and Dean a hunter. Unless they work out of the bunker that way. But I believe that for some reason its telling that Sam can’t really forgive Dean. I can’t see a resolution happening to soon.
By watching it over again and what is being said it seems maybe Sam can forgive Dean for some things but not all of it. So I am really not sure where the brothers can go from here?? I mean even if Dean does apologize really Sam won’t really forgive Dean for everything? So its like something dramatic would have to happen I mean its like Dean has come so close to getting killed and Sam ends up yelling NO. But to me you watch when ‘thinman’ or whatever the guys name is about to kill Dean and he seems like he accepts that fate. Either this maybe resolved this season or we get something but as Sam says I think he can forgive Dean for somethings but not sure he can forgive him for everything. So I wonder how much will go into S10. I mean they can work together but they can talk a bit but its like at the end you gotta wonder will they end up going their separate ways. I mean Sam may need to show Dean that light if he goes dark. And Dean may have to let Sam grow old without him and I don’t mean that Dean will die just that he keeps hunting without Sam. Sam be a MOL and Dean a hunter. Unless they work out of the bunker that way. But I believe that for some reason its telling that Sam can’t really forgive Dean. I can’t see a resolution happening to soon.
[quote name=”suebsg9″]By watching it over again and what is being said it seems maybe Sam can forgive Dean for some things but not all of it. So I am really not sure where the brothers can go from here?? I mean even if Dean does apologize really Sam won’t really forgive Dean for everything? So its like something dramatic would have to happen I mean its like Dean has come so close to getting killed and Sam ends up yelling NO. But to me you watch when ‘thinman’ or whatever the guys name is about to kill Dean and he seems like he accepts that fate. Either this maybe resolved this season or we get something but as Sam says I think he can forgive Dean for somethings but not sure he can forgive him for everything. So I wonder how much will go into S10. I mean they can work together but they can talk a bit but its like at the end you gotta wonder will they end up going their separate ways. I mean Sam may need to show Dean that light if he goes dark. And Dean may have to let Sam grow old without him and I don’t mean that Dean will die just that he keeps hunting without Sam. Sam be a MOL and Dean a hunter. Unless they work out of the bunker that way. But I believe that for some reason its telling that Sam can’t really forgive Dean. I can’t see a resolution happening to soon.[/quote]
I think it’s impossible to tell whether or how much Sam will forgive until Dean actually apologizes at the very least for the pain Sam felt. I want him to acknowledge that taking control of Sam’s body without Sam’s knowledge or consent is wrong, no matter how much good came out of it.
I think the fact that Dean has not only not apologized and has told Sam that he would do it again is telling. How can Sam forgive knowing that Dean will do whatever Dean deems needs to be done to Sam? I think the whole forgiveness issue can’t even BEGIN to be dealt with until Dean wants forgiveness. Currently Dean wants Sam to drop it with absolutely no effort from Dean. He wants Sam to admit Dean was right and Sam was just being silly resenting having an angel shoved inside him.
[quote]By watching it over again and what is being said it seems maybe Sam can forgive Dean for some things but not all of it. So I am really not sure where the brothers can go from here?? I mean even if Dean does apologize really Sam won’t really forgive Dean for everything? So its like something dramatic would have to happen I mean its like Dean has come so close to getting killed and Sam ends up yelling NO. But to me you watch when ‘thinman’ or whatever the guys name is about to kill Dean and he seems like he accepts that fate. Either this maybe resolved this season or we get something but as Sam says I think he can forgive Dean for somethings but not sure he can forgive him for everything. So I wonder how much will go into S10. I mean they can work together but they can talk a bit but its like at the end you gotta wonder will they end up going their separate ways. I mean Sam may need to show Dean that light if he goes dark. And Dean may have to let Sam grow old without him and I don’t mean that Dean will die just that he keeps hunting without Sam. Sam be a MOL and Dean a hunter. Unless they work out of the bunker that way. But I believe that for some reason its telling that Sam can’t really forgive Dean. I can’t see a resolution happening to soon.[/quote]
I think it’s impossible to tell whether or how much Sam will forgive until Dean actually apologizes at the very least for the pain Sam felt. I want him to acknowledge that taking control of Sam’s body without Sam’s knowledge or consent is wrong, no matter how much good came out of it.
I think the fact that Dean has not only not apologized and has told Sam that he would do it again is telling. How can Sam forgive knowing that Dean will do whatever Dean deems needs to be done to Sam? I think the whole forgiveness issue can’t even BEGIN to be dealt with until Dean wants forgiveness. Currently Dean wants Sam to drop it with absolutely no effort from Dean. He wants Sam to admit Dean was right and Sam was just being silly resenting having an angel shoved inside him.
[quote name=”CastielsCat”] Harry was not emotionally abusive nor did he tear apart Ed And Ed’s life’s work.[/quote]
Sam is not emotionally abusive and has not torn apart Dean’s life’s work either. This is character bashing again.
[quote] Harry was not emotionally abusive nor did he tear apart Ed And Ed’s life’s work.[/quote]
Sam is not emotionally abusive and has not torn apart Dean’s life’s work either. This is character bashing again.
Dark!Dean is going to be awesome fun!
BRING IT!
Dark!Dean is going to be awesome fun!
BRING IT!
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote name=”suebsg9″]By watching it over again and what is being said it seems maybe Sam can forgive Dean for some things but not all of it. So I am really not sure where the brothers can go from here?? I mean even if Dean does apologize really Sam won’t really forgive Dean for everything? So its like something dramatic would have to happen I mean its like Dean has come so close to getting killed and Sam ends up yelling NO. But to me you watch when ‘thinman’ or whatever the guys name is about to kill Dean and he seems like he accepts that fate. Either this maybe resolved this season or we get something but as Sam says I think he can forgive Dean for somethings but not sure he can forgive him for everything. So I wonder how much will go into S10. I mean they can work together but they can talk a bit but its like at the end you gotta wonder will they end up going their separate ways. I mean Sam may need to show Dean that light if he goes dark. And Dean may have to let Sam grow old without him and I don’t mean that Dean will die just that he keeps hunting without Sam. Sam be a MOL and Dean a hunter. Unless they work out of the bunker that way. But I believe that for some reason its telling that Sam can’t really forgive Dean. I can’t see a resolution happening to soon.[/quote]
I think it’s impossible to tell whether or how much Sam will forgive until Dean actually apologizes at the very least for the pain Sam felt. I want him to acknowledge that taking control of Sam’s body without Sam’s knowledge or consent is wrong, no matter how much good came out of it.
I think the fact that Dean has not only not apologized and has told Sam that he would do it again is telling. How can Sam forgive knowing that Dean will do whatever Dean deems needs to be done to Sam? I think the whole forgiveness issue can’t even BEGIN to be dealt with until Dean wants forgiveness. Currently Dean wants Sam to drop it with absolutely no effort from Dean. He wants Sam to admit Dean was right and Sam was just being silly resenting having an angel shoved inside him.[/quote]
i agree percy. i think it’s an assumption that sam wouldn’t be able to forgive everything. we don’t/won’t really know until he actually gets an apology and they deal with everything. regardless of whether or not sam can forgive everything dean has done is irrelevant. he deserves an apology. if i recall, sam has apologized to dean numerous times in regards to ruby. hell he jumped in the pit and spent over a century being tortured in order to atone for what he’d done to dean and the world. still, as of sacrifice…dean still holds sam accountable for ruby among other things. so as far as being unforgiving…i think dean holds the record on that. if sam can’t manage to forgive everything dean has done to him, then i’m ok by it. like i said, dean still hasn’t forgiven sam of some of the things that’s done to him. not only has he not forgiven sam, but he still uses it against him.
[quote][quote]By watching it over again and what is being said it seems maybe Sam can forgive Dean for some things but not all of it. So I am really not sure where the brothers can go from here?? I mean even if Dean does apologize really Sam won’t really forgive Dean for everything? So its like something dramatic would have to happen I mean its like Dean has come so close to getting killed and Sam ends up yelling NO. But to me you watch when ‘thinman’ or whatever the guys name is about to kill Dean and he seems like he accepts that fate. Either this maybe resolved this season or we get something but as Sam says I think he can forgive Dean for somethings but not sure he can forgive him for everything. So I wonder how much will go into S10. I mean they can work together but they can talk a bit but its like at the end you gotta wonder will they end up going their separate ways. I mean Sam may need to show Dean that light if he goes dark. And Dean may have to let Sam grow old without him and I don’t mean that Dean will die just that he keeps hunting without Sam. Sam be a MOL and Dean a hunter. Unless they work out of the bunker that way. But I believe that for some reason its telling that Sam can’t really forgive Dean. I can’t see a resolution happening to soon.[/quote]
I think it’s impossible to tell whether or how much Sam will forgive until Dean actually apologizes at the very least for the pain Sam felt. I want him to acknowledge that taking control of Sam’s body without Sam’s knowledge or consent is wrong, no matter how much good came out of it.
I think the fact that Dean has not only not apologized and has told Sam that he would do it again is telling. How can Sam forgive knowing that Dean will do whatever Dean deems needs to be done to Sam? I think the whole forgiveness issue can’t even BEGIN to be dealt with until Dean wants forgiveness. Currently Dean wants Sam to drop it with absolutely no effort from Dean. He wants Sam to admit Dean was right and Sam was just being silly resenting having an angel shoved inside him.[/quote]
i agree percy. i think it’s an assumption that sam wouldn’t be able to forgive everything. we don’t/won’t really know until he actually gets an apology and they deal with everything. regardless of whether or not sam can forgive everything dean has done is irrelevant. he deserves an apology. if i recall, sam has apologized to dean numerous times in regards to ruby. hell he jumped in the pit and spent over a century being tortured in order to atone for what he’d done to dean and the world. still, as of sacrifice…dean still holds sam accountable for ruby among other things. so as far as being unforgiving…i think dean holds the record on that. if sam can’t manage to forgive everything dean has done to him, then i’m ok by it. like i said, dean still hasn’t forgiven sam of some of the things that’s done to him. not only has he not forgiven sam, but he still uses it against him.
[quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t agree at all with the statement that sam is being stubborn. but as e has stated, he’s justifiably po’d. dean is the one who is being stubborn. he’s the one who is adhering to his i did what was right stance damned the consequences without fully acknowledging what it is he has done wrong and comprehending why it is that sam is justifiably pissed off.[/quote]
TBH, I think they’re both pretty stubborn at the moment. I get Dean’s side of it, I get Sam’s side of it. Sam has the moral high ground, but it’s a moral that Dean can’t compute emotionally. Both have made overtures to the other (Dean trying to talk to Sam at the end of “Captives,” Sam wanting to hunt with Dean, both of them enjoying some reminiscing), both seem to be holding their ground and waiting for the other to cave. Dean can’t ever admit that “let Sam die” is ever the right thing to do. Sam- understandably- can’t be okay with his methods.
[quote name=”E”]
I am worried that Sam will be forced to drop everything that he is JUSTIFIABLY angry about right now because of what’s going on with Dean and that the resolution of not only this season’s problems but the underlying issues in the brother’s entire relationship will have to be put on hold while the MoC is dealt with. And when it’s all finally resolved (because it will be) Dean will call it a mark in the win column and move on, never addressing anything or dealing with anything and we’ll be right back where we were with Sam as a non-person in this relationship. [/quote]
I figure the MoC resolution will also resolve their conflict, or go a long way towards it, as opposed to brushing it off. Each brother is going to walk a mile in the other’s shoes- Sam desperate to save a Dean that presumably won’t want saving and won’t see any benefit to it. They’ll presumably each understand the other a lot better afterwards. If that doesn’t “solve” the conflict, they’ll at least be able to see each other’s POVs better and start really talking.
I also look forward to Dean getting what it’s like to have that kind of power like Sam did in S4. Dean brought up that era again last season (though I call that clunky writing designed to put Sam in a certain headspace), and there are fans out there who still haven’t forgiven Sam for things he did then. There have been hints before that Dean could have a serious dark streak to him if he ever let his Id off the chain (especially in Hell and Purgatory, where he didn’t have much choice, but it happens to him too in the “regular world” when particularly stressed or emotional). It will be an interesting perspective to have Dean dealing with serious and evil powers coursing through him.
[quote]i don’t agree at all with the statement that sam is being stubborn. but as e has stated, he’s justifiably po’d. dean is the one who is being stubborn. he’s the one who is adhering to his i did what was right stance damned the consequences without fully acknowledging what it is he has done wrong and comprehending why it is that sam is justifiably pissed off.[/quote]
TBH, I think they’re both pretty stubborn at the moment. I get Dean’s side of it, I get Sam’s side of it. Sam has the moral high ground, but it’s a moral that Dean can’t compute emotionally. Both have made overtures to the other (Dean trying to talk to Sam at the end of “Captives,” Sam wanting to hunt with Dean, both of them enjoying some reminiscing), both seem to be holding their ground and waiting for the other to cave. Dean can’t ever admit that “let Sam die” is ever the right thing to do. Sam- understandably- can’t be okay with his methods.
[quote]
I am worried that Sam will be forced to drop everything that he is JUSTIFIABLY angry about right now because of what’s going on with Dean and that the resolution of not only this season’s problems but the underlying issues in the brother’s entire relationship will have to be put on hold while the MoC is dealt with. And when it’s all finally resolved (because it will be) Dean will call it a mark in the win column and move on, never addressing anything or dealing with anything and we’ll be right back where we were with Sam as a non-person in this relationship. [/quote]
I figure the MoC resolution will also resolve their conflict, or go a long way towards it, as opposed to brushing it off. Each brother is going to walk a mile in the other’s shoes- Sam desperate to save a Dean that presumably won’t want saving and won’t see any benefit to it. They’ll presumably each understand the other a lot better afterwards. If that doesn’t “solve” the conflict, they’ll at least be able to see each other’s POVs better and start really talking.
I also look forward to Dean getting what it’s like to have that kind of power like Sam did in S4. Dean brought up that era again last season (though I call that clunky writing designed to put Sam in a certain headspace), and there are fans out there who still haven’t forgiven Sam for things he did then. There have been hints before that Dean could have a serious dark streak to him if he ever let his Id off the chain (especially in Hell and Purgatory, where he didn’t have much choice, but it happens to him too in the “regular world” when particularly stressed or emotional). It will be an interesting perspective to have Dean dealing with serious and evil powers coursing through him.
Oh oh! Supernatural.tv just posted a series of tweets indicating that this and the next episode are indeed in the “right” order, but were filmed in reverse due to “logistics” (guest actor availability, presumably).
So….that changes a lot for me, and answers a few questions! I thought it would be a bit incongruous to plan the “Blade” episode before the GF episode, as nothing was mentioned about it and Dean was only showing minimal MoC signs. So that makes more sense.
It does make me wonder after all if there will be any movement on the Big Honking Fight? Based on some spoilage (stop reading here if you’re avoiding!) Sam is with Dean throughout the episode, so hopefully there will at least be more talk about the MoC, Dean’s plans, and its effect on him?
Oh oh! Supernatural.tv just posted a series of tweets indicating that this and the next episode are indeed in the “right” order, but were filmed in reverse due to “logistics” (guest actor availability, presumably).
So….that changes a lot for me, and answers a few questions! I thought it would be a bit incongruous to plan the “Blade” episode before the GF episode, as nothing was mentioned about it and Dean was only showing minimal MoC signs. So that makes more sense.
It does make me wonder after all if there will be any movement on the Big Honking Fight? Based on some spoilage (stop reading here if you’re avoiding!) Sam is with Dean throughout the episode, so hopefully there will at least be more talk about the MoC, Dean’s plans, and its effect on him?
Loved the episode.The final conversation between Ed and harry was good.Sam was perfect this episode ..His short dialogue with Harry was perfect.I hope sam does not bend to dean’s jibes,sticks his ground.I am liking this Sam.
The thing about Dean not telling Sam about the case was so manipulative.he agreed with Sam about the professional relationship and then he confused about up,down and sideways,Yeah,The silliest thing out of his mouth.
If Dean thought that Sam did not agree to come to the brotherly conference then I agree that Dean should be unsure..But professional participation by Sam being doubtful should not be something Dean should be unsure about.
Loved the episode.The final conversation between Ed and harry was good.Sam was perfect this episode ..His short dialogue with Harry was perfect.I hope sam does not bend to dean’s jibes,sticks his ground.I am liking this Sam.
The thing about Dean not telling Sam about the case was so manipulative.he agreed with Sam about the professional relationship and then he confused about up,down and sideways,Yeah,The silliest thing out of his mouth.
If Dean thought that Sam did not agree to come to the brotherly conference then I agree that Dean should be unsure..But professional participation by Sam being doubtful should not be something Dean should be unsure about.