Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×14 “Captives”
Warning: If you have not seen tonight’s episode, “Captives,” then beware spoilers ahead!
Summary: This episode opens with a haunting…and Billy Squier (always a win in my book). The bunker is haunted by the ONE AND ONLY KEVIN TRAN. You know, the Kevin Tran that was killed unnecessarily? After going back and forth about how may or may not be Kevin, the brothers finally see that it is Kevin, after Dean delivers a rather beautiful monologue about forgiveness and restitution. Kevin says that the Winchesters can repay him by getting him his mother, who is ALIVE, it seems. Crowley lies?!! NO! I’m shocked and aghast, I tell you. Shocked.
Now here’s the horrible part…apparently heaven is closed to everyone. All the dead are waiting behind the veil, like Crowley’s Season 6 version of hell. It’s like a Walmart on Thanksgiving night up there or over there or through there. I’m never sure in this show which preposition to use for the afterlives. Up, down, over, under. After a while it’s kama sutra directions.
Now over to the angel part of the episode, we see Castiel find out about the death of Rebecca, who was the leader of the penitents: angels who want to reclaim their mission for humanity. After the funeral Castiel encounters Bartholomew’s men and then Bartholomew himself, or as I’d like to call him the new Aryan Benny Hinn. He admires Castiel as his former leader and kind of reminds us how Castiel was a really bad guy for about three episodes. Bartholomew tries to convince Castiel to join him in his take down of Metatron and the taking back of heaven. And gives him what I’d like to call an angel gangland test – kill the non-believer. Of course, Cas resists because he’s not into that anymore.
The brothers spend the episode summoning ghosts and then trying to track down Mama Tran, which they do. Sam gets locked in a storage portal with her while Dean gets knocked out (yay, it’s not Sam this time) and hogtied by a very disgruntled demon. I do want to note that three times we are reminded of Dean’s changed relationship with Crowley. First there’s the phone call, then we get Dean trying to understand Crowley’s headspace and finally Dean notes that he and Crowley are think to the disgruntled demon. This is interesting to me. The most powerful part of this episode, though, came from Lauren Tom as Linda Tran. Both her acting and the writing were superb here. Even in her grief, she was going to get the work done. That? That is good episode work.
As Castiel takes out Bartholomew, we see the Winchesters overpower the Storage Wars demon. Sam comes in and punches the guy and makes his trademark sex noise when he hits. Dean and Sam hand over the demon killing blade to Mama Tran, so she can finish the demon off.
The episode ends with Castiel at Rebecca’s grave as another angel arrives and pledges his fealty to a very resistant Castiel. Castiel is now a leader, even if he doesn’t want to be.
In the bunker, Mama Tran returns to claim Kevin, who will be attached to her via a ring that was owned by Kevin’s father. It’s the object he has attached to. Kevin, before leaving, chastises the brothers for not feeling grateful for what they have. For a moment, it seems they may reconcile until Sam walks away and storms into his room, leaving Dean to return to the position he was in when the episode began – lying down as he listens to Billy Squier…..alone.
Speculations and questions for the week:
Now that we know heaven is closed to everyone, what exactly is going on up/over/through/in there? I’m telling you, Metatron is up there like Burgess Meredith in that Twilight Zone episode about the man who wanted to have all the books and none of the people, but once the world was empty? He broke his glasses. Metatron is up there crying because no one is there to pet his greatness. Mark my words.
I think we must be very careful about where Crowley fits in here as he seems to be this ghost hanging out on the edge of the storyline, and since we had nothing about the mark of Cain, I’m wondering where this all is going. As I stated before, I think it’s a setup for Dean.
We know Sam loves Dean – his worry about Dean in the very beginning of the episode belies his rather abrupt exit at the end of the episode. I have to wonder if Sam is mad at himself because he’s trying to live the line of “business” and is missing the brotherly relationship. The car convo when Dean makes that sarcastic “business-like” comment did get a reaction from Sam. I’m not sure about this relationship storyline so I’ll reserve my comments for my bitter twitter feed.
Castiel will have a redemption arc for the angels. He’s already been redeemed through humanity, via the taking on of Sam’s Lucifer hallucinations and his time in purgatory. He still needs to make amends for what he did to the angels and this is the story arc, in my opinion. Castiel will have to be the leader he could’ve been rather than the god he wanted to be.
Just some thoughts post episode. Please share your feelings, theories, and thoughts below.
I loved it! Great episode. The pacing was stellar, something that has been sorely absent in most eps this year. There were plenty of feels and emotional triggers for me. Yes, the brothers are still fighting, but they’re making progress. My favorite though was finally movement on the angel storyline. They’re setting up Castiel for redemption. At least I hope. I’ll have a lot more to say, because I’m doing a review this week covering for Sophia. So much goodness to analyze.
I loved it! Great episode. The pacing was stellar, something that has been sorely absent in most eps this year. There were plenty of feels and emotional triggers for me. Yes, the brothers are still fighting, but they’re making progress. My favorite though was finally movement on the angel storyline. They’re setting up Castiel for redemption. At least I hope. I’ll have a lot more to say, because I’m doing a review this week covering for Sophia. So much goodness to analyze.
I liked it. Glad to see Kevin and his mom. Glad they were reunited, even if only temporarily. Feel like we will see them again. Interested in seeing cas’ role in opening heaven. Glad Kevin released the boys of their guilt. Sam did say ok to Kevin when he asked the boys to promise to let it go…I think Sam was referring to letting go of his guilt. I don’t think Sam is ready to let go of his anger and hurt…too soon for that, But he did hear Kevin when he said the fighting was stupid. I know he walked away..but there was a hesitation before he opened the door to his room. I think Sam is starting to find it difficult to just be partners 🙂 …but I think Sam also realizes that they need to deal with what’s happened. Sam can’t just forgive and forget instantaneously. A trust was broken. And I don’t think Sam is ok with dean being willing to do it all again knowing the outcome. The only way to move on, to fix what’s been damaged, is to talk about it. If Sam cedes and just let’s bygones be bygones then Kevin will have died in vain. Dean will never change and the cycle will never end. In this instance, Sam needs to fight. He’s fighting to save his relationship with his brother. To do that he needs to fight him..sound contradictory, but fighting is when they open up…before they can deal with their problems they have to acknowledge what they are.
Kevin took over for the boys this week, but I hope next week they have Sam keep at it with dean. I don’t want Sam letting up til dean finally erupts. We’re getting closer…I don’t think we have to wait too much longer.
I liked it. Glad to see Kevin and his mom. Glad they were reunited, even if only temporarily. Feel like we will see them again. Interested in seeing cas’ role in opening heaven. Glad Kevin released the boys of their guilt. Sam did say ok to Kevin when he asked the boys to promise to let it go…I think Sam was referring to letting go of his guilt. I don’t think Sam is ready to let go of his anger and hurt…too soon for that, But he did hear Kevin when he said the fighting was stupid. I know he walked away..but there was a hesitation before he opened the door to his room. I think Sam is starting to find it difficult to just be partners 🙂 …but I think Sam also realizes that they need to deal with what’s happened. Sam can’t just forgive and forget instantaneously. A trust was broken. And I don’t think Sam is ok with dean being willing to do it all again knowing the outcome. The only way to move on, to fix what’s been damaged, is to talk about it. If Sam cedes and just let’s bygones be bygones then Kevin will have died in vain. Dean will never change and the cycle will never end. In this instance, Sam needs to fight. He’s fighting to save his relationship with his brother. To do that he needs to fight him..sound contradictory, but fighting is when they open up…before they can deal with their problems they have to acknowledge what they are.
Kevin took over for the boys this week, but I hope next week they have Sam keep at it with dean. I don’t want Sam letting up til dean finally erupts. We’re getting closer…I don’t think we have to wait too much longer.
So, after the big to do about Crowley and minion demon having THREE captives, Linda Tran, the mother of The Prophet, Candy, The Mistress of the Senator and unidentified captive number three, did we ever find out who captive number three was? Was she/he rescued. Did I blink and miss it? Or did I just miss it?
So, after the big to do about Crowley and minion demon having THREE captives, Linda Tran, the mother of The Prophet, Candy, The Mistress of the Senator and unidentified captive number three, did we ever find out who captive number three was? Was she/he rescued. Did I blink and miss it? Or did I just miss it?
I really enjoyed the episode too, but I definitely liked the Kevin/Winchester bits more than the angel bits… I guess I’m just not that into the angel storyline. Loved seeing Lauren Tom and Osric again. Though I was a little confused as to why Crowley had Candy as a hostage… and was there a third prisoner? Didn’t they say there were three people who Crowley was holding captive? **scratches head**
With this episode, I’m actually having more faith in the writers over the brothers’ relationship – Kevin’s words an acknowledgement that even the writers realize their drama is “stupid”. And I liked how Sam hesitated at his room door after walking away. I’m increasingly optimistic that this frostiness between them is melting and it’s all leading to somewhere that’s ultimately positive.
Meanwhile, I thought this would be the episode with Snooki in it, as well as Crowley tied up to the bed. I guess those are for upcoming episodes…
I really enjoyed the episode too, but I definitely liked the Kevin/Winchester bits more than the angel bits… I guess I’m just not that into the angel storyline. Loved seeing Lauren Tom and Osric again. Though I was a little confused as to why Crowley had Candy as a hostage… and was there a third prisoner? Didn’t they say there were three people who Crowley was holding captive? **scratches head**
With this episode, I’m actually having more faith in the writers over the brothers’ relationship – Kevin’s words an acknowledgement that even the writers realize their drama is “stupid”. And I liked how Sam hesitated at his room door after walking away. I’m increasingly optimistic that this frostiness between them is melting and it’s all leading to somewhere that’s ultimately positive.
Meanwhile, I thought this would be the episode with Snooki in it, as well as Crowley tied up to the bed. I guess those are for upcoming episodes…
[quote]Though I was a little confused as to why Crowley had Candy as a hostage… and was there a third prisoner? Didn’t they say there were three people who Crowley was holding captive? **scratches head**[/quote]
Yes! I wasn’t hallucinating the third captive. And no, I have no idea what happened to her/him because they kind of forgot about it halfway through.
[quote]Though I was a little confused as to why Crowley had Candy as a hostage… and was there a third prisoner? Didn’t they say there were three people who Crowley was holding captive? **scratches head**[/quote]
Yes! I wasn’t hallucinating the third captive. And no, I have no idea what happened to her/him because they kind of forgot about it halfway through.
I really liked this episode. Much better than I expected. It moved fast and I liked how they intertwined the action this time. I thought the way the guy’s interacted was perfect. Things are not going to be hunky dory right now. That is realistic to me. If they acted like nothing was wrong it would have rung false! Sam’s hesitation at his door showed he is troubled but is also resolved to see this through.
For once DEAN got knocked out. Sam came to his rescue. Nice. I enjoy snarky Sam BTW. Hope to see more of him.
I enjoyed the new direction the angel war is taking. What has Crowley got up his sleeve? I am so glad that Cas didn’t fall for another line of BS. That he chose to follow his better instincts this time.
Jensen continues to show Dean’s guilt and hurt in a wonderful performance. Jared’s conflicted emotions as Sam are equally impressive. You can see how much he loves Dean but is still feeling angry and betrayed. Love these two actors so much!
I really liked this episode. Much better than I expected. It moved fast and I liked how they intertwined the action this time. I thought the way the guy’s interacted was perfect. Things are not going to be hunky dory right now. That is realistic to me. If they acted like nothing was wrong it would have rung false! Sam’s hesitation at his door showed he is troubled but is also resolved to see this through.
For once DEAN got knocked out. Sam came to his rescue. Nice. I enjoy snarky Sam BTW. Hope to see more of him.
I enjoyed the new direction the angel war is taking. What has Crowley got up his sleeve? I am so glad that Cas didn’t fall for another line of BS. That he chose to follow his better instincts this time.
Jensen continues to show Dean’s guilt and hurt in a wonderful performance. Jared’s conflicted emotions as Sam are equally impressive. You can see how much he loves Dean but is still feeling angry and betrayed. Love these two actors so much!
That was such a nice send off for Kevin and Mama Tran! Yeah, he’s a ghost but they’re together until Heaven’s opened up again and that’s a lot better than some get. She’s always been tough as nails despite, no because of, her love for her son and I get that because there’s nothing I wouldn’t do for my own … yes, I have one so I have to admire her tenacity and heart.
I was slightly afraid that Cas would actually join up with Bartolemew, because of bad decisions he’s made in the past, but then I remembered he’d told Sam the last episode he was in that he’d learned the ends don’t always justified the mean. It was amazing to see him stand his ground and make the right decision for the first time since deciding to rebel and help the boys at the end of season 4. Since the end of season 6 he’s made more the “path to hell is lined with good intentions” decisions so I was happy. And man, Bartholemew was just creepy and a bit crazed so I was happy to see Cas off him!
The boys … well, I think saving Mama Tran and reuniting her with Kevin (even in spirit form) had to be a bit of a catharsis for Dean, in that not everyone dies and Kevin understood and for Sam, that Kevin didn’t blame him. We’re used to seeing Sam get over things pretty easily so it’s weird seeing him just leave and shut the door to his room without a word to Dean after Kevin implored them to get over it. I’m sure he will but maybe, for once, he’s just not there yet. Just because someone tells you to get over it doesn’t mean you will that very minute … if it’s something big you still have to work it out, sometimes on your own. It’s harsh and I wanted to give Dean a big hug but I have no doubt it will be dealt with. Also, in a way, the writer’s aren’t just going the same old route … in the past it would have been Kevin tells them to get over it and they have a beer while sitting on the Impala and things magically go back to normal so they’re changing things up a bit. They’re keeping us on our toes and I appreciate that, even if it makes me sad for the two of them.
That was such a nice send off for Kevin and Mama Tran! Yeah, he’s a ghost but they’re together until Heaven’s opened up again and that’s a lot better than some get. She’s always been tough as nails despite, no because of, her love for her son and I get that because there’s nothing I wouldn’t do for my own … yes, I have one so I have to admire her tenacity and heart.
I was slightly afraid that Cas would actually join up with Bartolemew, because of bad decisions he’s made in the past, but then I remembered he’d told Sam the last episode he was in that he’d learned the ends don’t always justified the mean. It was amazing to see him stand his ground and make the right decision for the first time since deciding to rebel and help the boys at the end of season 4. Since the end of season 6 he’s made more the “path to hell is lined with good intentions” decisions so I was happy. And man, Bartholemew was just creepy and a bit crazed so I was happy to see Cas off him!
The boys … well, I think saving Mama Tran and reuniting her with Kevin (even in spirit form) had to be a bit of a catharsis for Dean, in that not everyone dies and Kevin understood and for Sam, that Kevin didn’t blame him. We’re used to seeing Sam get over things pretty easily so it’s weird seeing him just leave and shut the door to his room without a word to Dean after Kevin implored them to get over it. I’m sure he will but maybe, for once, he’s just not there yet. Just because someone tells you to get over it doesn’t mean you will that very minute … if it’s something big you still have to work it out, sometimes on your own. It’s harsh and I wanted to give Dean a big hug but I have no doubt it will be dealt with. Also, in a way, the writer’s aren’t just going the same old route … in the past it would have been Kevin tells them to get over it and they have a beer while sitting on the Impala and things magically go back to normal so they’re changing things up a bit. They’re keeping us on our toes and I appreciate that, even if it makes me sad for the two of them.
[quote name=”percysowner”]So, after the big to do about Crowley and minion demon having THREE captives, Linda Tran, the mother of The Prophet, Candy, The Mistress of the Senator and unidentified captive number three, did we ever find out who captive number three was? Was she/he rescued. Did I blink and miss it? Or did I just miss it?[/quote]
I think the other captive was referred to by Candy as “Jerome”. Something with a J. That should give us another arc down the road – maybe that will play into the Tribes spin-off? Who knows.
I get the feeling Castiel will die – and for good – by season end. Whilst they’ve echoed it in previous seasons, he’s got the whole Jesus vibe going right now. The reluctant leader.
Maybe that’s how they re-open Heaven. Cass has to die and take control of heaven. After-all it was his grace that shut it down.
I always knew Dean was a Billy Squier fan.
[quote]So, after the big to do about Crowley and minion demon having THREE captives, Linda Tran, the mother of The Prophet, Candy, The Mistress of the Senator and unidentified captive number three, did we ever find out who captive number three was? Was she/he rescued. Did I blink and miss it? Or did I just miss it?[/quote]
I think the other captive was referred to by Candy as “Jerome”. Something with a J. That should give us another arc down the road – maybe that will play into the Tribes spin-off? Who knows.
I get the feeling Castiel will die – and for good – by season end. Whilst they’ve echoed it in previous seasons, he’s got the whole Jesus vibe going right now. The reluctant leader.
Maybe that’s how they re-open Heaven. Cass has to die and take control of heaven. After-all it was his grace that shut it down.
I always knew Dean was a Billy Squier fan.
I really don’t get it. Why wasn’t Kevin angry at Dean? Dean should have warned him about Gadreel in Holy Terror so Kevin could protect himself or make himself scarce. Weird.
I really don’t get it. Why wasn’t Kevin angry at Dean? Dean should have warned him about Gadreel in Holy Terror so Kevin could protect himself or make himself scarce. Weird.
So, there’s still a chance for Kevin to return, yes?
Although both of Kevin and Bobby are ghosts, I have to admit this storyline is better than the Bobby’s ghost storyline.
So, there’s still a chance for Kevin to return, yes?
Although both of Kevin and Bobby are ghosts, I have to admit this storyline is better than the Bobby’s ghost storyline.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]I really don’t get it. Why wasn’t Kevin angry at Dean? Dean should have warned him about Gadreel in Holy Terror so Kevin could protect himself or make himself scarce. Weird.[/quote]
Okay, it’s just my thought. Possibly because Kevin also present (although invisible) through all of the brother’s spat after his death. He listens to Sam and Cas conversations and Dean and Sam’s conversations. He probably thinks that Dean has had enough whump from Sam. Being a ghost, Kevin can follow them undetectably and understand them better. He’s a smart guy. That’s why he told the brothers to be grateful with what they have because they don’t have anyone else. Kevin has time to think things through.
It’s far-reaching of course but Kevin, without Crowley’s influence is a more subdued guy. Most if not all of Kevin’s outburst happens only after Crowley talk to him.
[quote]I really don’t get it. Why wasn’t Kevin angry at Dean? Dean should have warned him about Gadreel in Holy Terror so Kevin could protect himself or make himself scarce. Weird.[/quote]
Okay, it’s just my thought. Possibly because Kevin also present (although invisible) through all of the brother’s spat after his death. He listens to Sam and Cas conversations and Dean and Sam’s conversations. He probably thinks that Dean has had enough whump from Sam. Being a ghost, Kevin can follow them undetectably and understand them better. He’s a smart guy. That’s why he told the brothers to be grateful with what they have because they don’t have anyone else. Kevin has time to think things through.
It’s far-reaching of course but Kevin, without Crowley’s influence is a more subdued guy. Most if not all of Kevin’s outburst happens only after Crowley talk to him.
@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.
@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.
Hmm, well, if someone didn’t tell me about an potential threat in the guise of a trusted friend, and I got killed as a result, I’d want to whump them personally, and a hell of a lot more than just some harsh words. I’m obviously a LOT less Zen than Kevin 😀
Hmm, well, if someone didn’t tell me about an potential threat in the guise of a trusted friend, and I got killed as a result, I’d want to whump them personally, and a hell of a lot more than just some harsh words. I’m obviously a LOT less Zen than Kevin 😀
What??? Not ALL angels are evil to the core??????
Glad to see even a small sect of good angels. RIP
Not sure about the former Bartholomew followers. Will Castiel have a lasting effect on them or will they jump ship for Metatron? Do they want any strong leader since they are ill-equipped to think for themselves?
I know no one else is as interested in angels but thanks for listening 🙂
What??? Not ALL angels are evil to the core??????
Glad to see even a small sect of good angels. RIP
Not sure about the former Bartholomew followers. Will Castiel have a lasting effect on them or will they jump ship for Metatron? Do they want any strong leader since they are ill-equipped to think for themselves?
I know no one else is as interested in angels but thanks for listening 🙂
i agree with tim that kevin doesn’t really understand the true ramifications of dean’s actions because he doesn’t know their history. he has no idea what sam has personally experienced and why what dean did broke his trust in his brother. all kevin gets is the boys are fighting and they need to stop. but it’s not as easy as kevin thinks to fix what’s wrong.
as for kevin not being more angry at dean it could have to do with his own situation. maybe when a spirit accepts death their outlook changes. there’s a peace within. unlike the restless spirits who stay behind. it’s possible that kevin was upset at some point. we don’t know and i don’t think it was the point of his visit. i think the point of kevin was to release sam and dean of the burden of guilt regarding his death.
what i did notice that i thought was rather important was what kevin said when he was trying to appear in the bunker. i don’t remember the exact words, but he said something like he didn’t go through all this trouble trying to make it through the veil so he can listen to dean have a pity party. and therein lies the problem.
kevin is dead as a result of dean tricking sam into possession and lying about it to everyone. when dean was calling out to kevin, he made it about himself. i’m sorry you got killed on my watch.
that is exactly why sam shouldn’t stop what he’s doing. dean shouldn’t have said i’m sorry you got killed on my watch. he should’ve told kevin, i’m sorry i my actions got you killed. i tricked my brother, i lied to him. i lied to you. if i had told you the truth, if i had told sam the truth, you would still be alive. please forgive me. dean should’ve owned up to kevin in what he did wrong instead of trying to get sympathy for what he did wrong.
kevin might not understand, but sam does. we know sam loves dean. i mean when dean called for sam at the beginning of the ep, sam came running. sam’s having a bit of a hard time towing the just partner line. i kind of like that. the conflict in that just proves how much he wants his brother back.
sam saying ok to kevin, i believe it was sam letting go of his guilt. he gets that kevin sees the fighting as stupid. his hesitation at the door just proves how conflicted sam is. what sam gets that kevin doesn’t is that dean’s actions are part of a life long cycle. a cycle that ends in hurt, pain and death. a cycle sam is trying to end.
sam needs to hear from dean not only an apology, sam needs dean to own up to his mistake. dean didn’t do that. all dean has done is tell sam that he’s alive and that’s all that mattered and he’d do it all again. he’s not admitting what he did was wrong. he’s not seeing what he did as wrong. until he does, dean will never stop making the same mistake over and over and over.
imo, he needs to admit that it was wrong to trick sam and wrong of him to lie to him about it. he has to tell sam his reasons for doing what he did, not just that they fight the good fight. that’s a vague statement that sam can and may have misinterpreted. sam thinks dean did all of it for himself, because he doesn’t want to be alone, dean doesn’t want to fight the fight alone. dean didn’t give sam any reason not to believe that’s not the case. his response was that he’d do it all again. but that response only has sam frustrated, angry, weary and afraid.
i agree with tim that kevin doesn’t really understand the true ramifications of dean’s actions because he doesn’t know their history. he has no idea what sam has personally experienced and why what dean did broke his trust in his brother. all kevin gets is the boys are fighting and they need to stop. but it’s not as easy as kevin thinks to fix what’s wrong.
as for kevin not being more angry at dean it could have to do with his own situation. maybe when a spirit accepts death their outlook changes. there’s a peace within. unlike the restless spirits who stay behind. it’s possible that kevin was upset at some point. we don’t know and i don’t think it was the point of his visit. i think the point of kevin was to release sam and dean of the burden of guilt regarding his death.
what i did notice that i thought was rather important was what kevin said when he was trying to appear in the bunker. i don’t remember the exact words, but he said something like he didn’t go through all this trouble trying to make it through the veil so he can listen to dean have a pity party. and therein lies the problem.
kevin is dead as a result of dean tricking sam into possession and lying about it to everyone. when dean was calling out to kevin, he made it about himself. i’m sorry you got killed on my watch.
that is exactly why sam shouldn’t stop what he’s doing. dean shouldn’t have said i’m sorry you got killed on my watch. he should’ve told kevin, i’m sorry i my actions got you killed. i tricked my brother, i lied to him. i lied to you. if i had told you the truth, if i had told sam the truth, you would still be alive. please forgive me. dean should’ve owned up to kevin in what he did wrong instead of trying to get sympathy for what he did wrong.
kevin might not understand, but sam does. we know sam loves dean. i mean when dean called for sam at the beginning of the ep, sam came running. sam’s having a bit of a hard time towing the just partner line. i kind of like that. the conflict in that just proves how much he wants his brother back.
sam saying ok to kevin, i believe it was sam letting go of his guilt. he gets that kevin sees the fighting as stupid. his hesitation at the door just proves how conflicted sam is. what sam gets that kevin doesn’t is that dean’s actions are part of a life long cycle. a cycle that ends in hurt, pain and death. a cycle sam is trying to end.
sam needs to hear from dean not only an apology, sam needs dean to own up to his mistake. dean didn’t do that. all dean has done is tell sam that he’s alive and that’s all that mattered and he’d do it all again. he’s not admitting what he did was wrong. he’s not seeing what he did as wrong. until he does, dean will never stop making the same mistake over and over and over.
imo, he needs to admit that it was wrong to trick sam and wrong of him to lie to him about it. he has to tell sam his reasons for doing what he did, not just that they fight the good fight. that’s a vague statement that sam can and may have misinterpreted. sam thinks dean did all of it for himself, because he doesn’t want to be alone, dean doesn’t want to fight the fight alone. dean didn’t give sam any reason not to believe that’s not the case. his response was that he’d do it all again. but that response only has sam frustrated, angry, weary and afraid.
Does anyone else wonder what would have happened if Same HAD closed the gates of hell? Would that mean all the bad souls would be trapped on earth?
Does anyone else wonder what would have happened if Same HAD closed the gates of hell? Would that mean all the bad souls would be trapped on earth?
sam may understand why kevin may see the fighting as stupid. but imo, sam sees it as vital to saving his relationship with his brother. sam cannot just give in and move on as if nothing happened. the hurt is too deep for that. he can’t bury it. he won’t. burying it only leads to resentment. it may seem like all is dandy for a short while, but it will only rear it’s ugly head later down the line. i think sam learned that lesson from dean, who is a prime example of that. no this time sam is not letting go. he’s had enough. it’s time to deal. history has shown that dean buries crap and tries to move on and doesn’t like to talk. nobody knows that better than sam. so sam has to make dean talk. he has to make dean see what the real problem is. dean has to understand what his mistake is and he has to deal with why he made it. sam told dean in as many words as the writers allowed, that they had to work at being brothers. well that’s what sam is doing. he’s trying to fix what’s broken and he can’t do it alone. dean just wants to go back to their routine and bury it. that won’t fix anything. so since dean isnt’ up for an opening up to sam and dealing with everything, sam has to make dean do it. the only way for sam to do it is by doing what he’s doing. dean doesn’t like it when sam’s angry at him. he doesn’t like it when sam’s hurt either. it will get to him which is what sam is trying to do. it’ll get dean to confront sam and they can finally deal with what’s wrong. and it’s not only on dean’s side. sam will also be able to open up to dean as well on his issues. hopefully once they do that, they can get over them, accept ea. other for who they are, change what’s wrong and build from there.
i hope next week, sam keeps at dean. i hope he holds onto his reserve. we’re so close. it’s going to be such a relief when these boys finally get ea. other. i can’t wait to watch sam and dean be the loving brothers who finally truly understand ea other instead of the loving brothers who constantly misunderstand ea. other. it’ll be nice when the conflict between these boys isn’t about their issues but perhaps just disagreeing on how things should get done. 🙂
sam may understand why kevin may see the fighting as stupid. but imo, sam sees it as vital to saving his relationship with his brother. sam cannot just give in and move on as if nothing happened. the hurt is too deep for that. he can’t bury it. he won’t. burying it only leads to resentment. it may seem like all is dandy for a short while, but it will only rear it’s ugly head later down the line. i think sam learned that lesson from dean, who is a prime example of that. no this time sam is not letting go. he’s had enough. it’s time to deal. history has shown that dean buries crap and tries to move on and doesn’t like to talk. nobody knows that better than sam. so sam has to make dean talk. he has to make dean see what the real problem is. dean has to understand what his mistake is and he has to deal with why he made it. sam told dean in as many words as the writers allowed, that they had to work at being brothers. well that’s what sam is doing. he’s trying to fix what’s broken and he can’t do it alone. dean just wants to go back to their routine and bury it. that won’t fix anything. so since dean isnt’ up for an opening up to sam and dealing with everything, sam has to make dean do it. the only way for sam to do it is by doing what he’s doing. dean doesn’t like it when sam’s angry at him. he doesn’t like it when sam’s hurt either. it will get to him which is what sam is trying to do. it’ll get dean to confront sam and they can finally deal with what’s wrong. and it’s not only on dean’s side. sam will also be able to open up to dean as well on his issues. hopefully once they do that, they can get over them, accept ea. other for who they are, change what’s wrong and build from there.
i hope next week, sam keeps at dean. i hope he holds onto his reserve. we’re so close. it’s going to be such a relief when these boys finally get ea. other. i can’t wait to watch sam and dean be the loving brothers who finally truly understand ea other instead of the loving brothers who constantly misunderstand ea. other. it’ll be nice when the conflict between these boys isn’t about their issues but perhaps just disagreeing on how things should get done. 🙂
Very good and well paced episode, though a little predictable with who was haunting the bunker. I was wondering the same thing about the other person being held at the storage facility. I hope they at least left them water, maybe ordered some takeout, or left them a comfy chair before taking off for the bat cave
I really liked the twist with heaven being closed for everyone, deceased humans in the veil as well as angels, it raises the stakes and makes the story line much more compelling
Not sorry to see Bartholomew go; boring in a Dick Roman kind of way. I was a little confused, though. Didn’t Bartholomew send a rogue reaper to kill Castiel earlier this season? His reasons for wanting to team up with Castiel now just didn’t add up for me. Sure looks like Castiel is being set up for a big redemption arc, maybe even a send off. Though why any other angels would want to follow him after the damage he did to heaven is beyond me. But, then again, he took out most of Raphael’s followers in S7 so most of the angels left had sided with him in the past anyway.
Very good and well paced episode, though a little predictable with who was haunting the bunker. I was wondering the same thing about the other person being held at the storage facility. I hope they at least left them water, maybe ordered some takeout, or left them a comfy chair before taking off for the bat cave
I really liked the twist with heaven being closed for everyone, deceased humans in the veil as well as angels, it raises the stakes and makes the story line much more compelling
Not sorry to see Bartholomew go; boring in a Dick Roman kind of way. I was a little confused, though. Didn’t Bartholomew send a rogue reaper to kill Castiel earlier this season? His reasons for wanting to team up with Castiel now just didn’t add up for me. Sure looks like Castiel is being set up for a big redemption arc, maybe even a send off. Though why any other angels would want to follow him after the damage he did to heaven is beyond me. But, then again, he took out most of Raphael’s followers in S7 so most of the angels left had sided with him in the past anyway.
[quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.[/quote]
I sure hope this isn’t where they’re going with this, other characters telling Sam to just get over it. But, last season everyone told Sam what a dick he was for not looking for Dean in purgatory so it wouldn’t surprise me.
[quote]@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.[/quote]
I sure hope this isn’t where they’re going with this, other characters telling Sam to just get over it. But, last season everyone told Sam what a dick he was for not looking for Dean in purgatory so it wouldn’t surprise me.
Thought Crowley was to cry in bed….
it was on the trailer. BBL
Thought Crowley was to cry in bed….
it was on the trailer. BBL
[quote]Does anyone else wonder what would have happened if Same HAD closed the gates of hell? Would that mean all the bad souls would be trapped on earth?[/quote]
I’m not sure closing the GOH would have been a good idea, but to be fair, we have never run into a demon or heard about a person who went to Hell because it was “a bad soul”. Every demon who has gone to Hell naturally (those wrongly diverted by Rogue Reapers not counted) went because they made a deal. The remark about letting Ken Lay into heaven made it clear that even though the angels felt his actions may have merited Hell, he was let in because he expressed the “right”kind of devotion.
[quote]Does anyone else wonder what would have happened if Same HAD closed the gates of hell? Would that mean all the bad souls would be trapped on earth?[/quote]
I’m not sure closing the GOH would have been a good idea, but to be fair, we have never run into a demon or heard about a person who went to Hell because it was “a bad soul”. Every demon who has gone to Hell naturally (those wrongly diverted by Rogue Reapers not counted) went because they made a deal. The remark about letting Ken Lay into heaven made it clear that even though the angels felt his actions may have merited Hell, he was let in because he expressed the “right”kind of devotion.
[quote name=”nappi815″]sam may understand why kevin may see the fighting as stupid. but imo, sam sees it as vital to saving his relationship with his brother. sam cannot just give in and move on as if nothing happened. the hurt is too deep for that. he can’t bury it. he won’t. burying it only leads to resentment. it may seem like all is dandy for a short while, but it will only rear it’s ugly head later down the line. i think sam learned that lesson from dean, who is a prime example of that. no this time sam is not letting go. he’s had enough. it’s time to deal. history has shown that dean buries crap and tries to move on and doesn’t like to talk. nobody knows that better than sam. so sam has to make dean talk. he has to make dean see what the real problem is. dean has to understand what his mistake is and he has to deal with why he made it. sam told dean in as many words as the writers allowed, that they had to work at being brothers. well that’s what sam is doing. he’s trying to fix what’s broken and he can’t do it alone. dean just wants to go back to their routine and bury it. that won’t fix anything. so since dean isnt’ up for an opening up to sam and dealing with everything, sam has to make dean do it. the only way for sam to do it is by doing what he’s doing. dean doesn’t like it when sam’s angry at him. he doesn’t like it when sam’s hurt either. it will get to him which is what sam is trying to do. it’ll get dean to confront sam and they can finally deal with what’s wrong. and it’s not only on dean’s side. sam will also be able to open up to dean as well on his issues. hopefully once they do that, they can get over them, accept ea. other for who they are, change what’s wrong and build from there.
i hope next week, sam keeps at dean. i hope he holds onto his reserve. we’re so close. it’s going to be such a relief when these boys finally get ea. other. i can’t wait to watch sam and dean be the loving brothers who finally truly understand ea other instead of the loving brothers who constantly misunderstand ea. other. it’ll be nice when the conflict between these boys isn’t about their issues but perhaps just disagreeing on how things should get done. :-)[/quote]
Can i say for the record that the writing is not really helping to many people to sympathise with his character. I mean Dean was all set to talk it out and what did Sam do he turned and headed toward his room. So to me if he wants to hear something from Dean he has to stick around and listen not turn tail and run. I mean the more he pushes Dean away like he has the more he is going to end up loosing Dean. Right now the relationship is on his terms. And Dean is abiding by him like in the impala everything is business. So this is what Sam wants this is what Dean is giving him. Dean will talk Sam just has to be able to stick around and listen. I mean we all know what Dean did but if Kevin can forgive Dean then Sam will have to eventually. But I am tired of the sam we are getting right now. I mean to me I am on Deans side until I see Sam do something that is mature. And right now he is acting immature to me. But sorry JMO.
[quote]sam may understand why kevin may see the fighting as stupid. but imo, sam sees it as vital to saving his relationship with his brother. sam cannot just give in and move on as if nothing happened. the hurt is too deep for that. he can’t bury it. he won’t. burying it only leads to resentment. it may seem like all is dandy for a short while, but it will only rear it’s ugly head later down the line. i think sam learned that lesson from dean, who is a prime example of that. no this time sam is not letting go. he’s had enough. it’s time to deal. history has shown that dean buries crap and tries to move on and doesn’t like to talk. nobody knows that better than sam. so sam has to make dean talk. he has to make dean see what the real problem is. dean has to understand what his mistake is and he has to deal with why he made it. sam told dean in as many words as the writers allowed, that they had to work at being brothers. well that’s what sam is doing. he’s trying to fix what’s broken and he can’t do it alone. dean just wants to go back to their routine and bury it. that won’t fix anything. so since dean isnt’ up for an opening up to sam and dealing with everything, sam has to make dean do it. the only way for sam to do it is by doing what he’s doing. dean doesn’t like it when sam’s angry at him. he doesn’t like it when sam’s hurt either. it will get to him which is what sam is trying to do. it’ll get dean to confront sam and they can finally deal with what’s wrong. and it’s not only on dean’s side. sam will also be able to open up to dean as well on his issues. hopefully once they do that, they can get over them, accept ea. other for who they are, change what’s wrong and build from there.
i hope next week, sam keeps at dean. i hope he holds onto his reserve. we’re so close. it’s going to be such a relief when these boys finally get ea. other. i can’t wait to watch sam and dean be the loving brothers who finally truly understand ea other instead of the loving brothers who constantly misunderstand ea. other. it’ll be nice when the conflict between these boys isn’t about their issues but perhaps just disagreeing on how things should get done. :-)[/quote]
Can i say for the record that the writing is not really helping to many people to sympathise with his character. I mean Dean was all set to talk it out and what did Sam do he turned and headed toward his room. So to me if he wants to hear something from Dean he has to stick around and listen not turn tail and run. I mean the more he pushes Dean away like he has the more he is going to end up loosing Dean. Right now the relationship is on his terms. And Dean is abiding by him like in the impala everything is business. So this is what Sam wants this is what Dean is giving him. Dean will talk Sam just has to be able to stick around and listen. I mean we all know what Dean did but if Kevin can forgive Dean then Sam will have to eventually. But I am tired of the sam we are getting right now. I mean to me I am on Deans side until I see Sam do something that is mature. And right now he is acting immature to me. But sorry JMO.
[quote name=”lalarks”]Does anyone else wonder what would have happened if Same HAD closed the gates of hell? Would that mean all the bad souls would be trapped on earth?[/quote]
Metatron when he was talking with the boys when they first met kind of gave them a warning label on closing the gates of hell. I mean I figured out that there is no way that those who died are going up in heaven if its closed off but people told me nope souls can go up there. Metatron wouldn’t be on earth if it wasn’t closed off. And Kevin would have figured out how to reopen it that is why Kevin had to go and metatron needed the tablets. But there would be more chaos guessing that angels fell from heaven when cas thought the angels just would be stuck in heave so you gotta wonder would the gates of hell closed or would the gates opened and let the demons out???
[quote]Does anyone else wonder what would have happened if Same HAD closed the gates of hell? Would that mean all the bad souls would be trapped on earth?[/quote]
Metatron when he was talking with the boys when they first met kind of gave them a warning label on closing the gates of hell. I mean I figured out that there is no way that those who died are going up in heaven if its closed off but people told me nope souls can go up there. Metatron wouldn’t be on earth if it wasn’t closed off. And Kevin would have figured out how to reopen it that is why Kevin had to go and metatron needed the tablets. But there would be more chaos guessing that angels fell from heaven when cas thought the angels just would be stuck in heave so you gotta wonder would the gates of hell closed or would the gates opened and let the demons out???
[quote name=”suebsg9″]
Can i say for the record that the writing is not really helping to many people to sympathise with his character. I mean Dean was all set to talk it out and what did Sam do he turned and headed toward his room. So to me if he wants to hear something from Dean he has to stick around and listen not turn tail and run. I mean the more he pushes Dean away like he has the more he is going to end up loosing Dean. Right now the relationship is on his terms. And Dean is abiding by him like in the impala everything is business. So this is what Sam wants this is what Dean is giving him. Dean will talk Sam just has to be able to stick around and listen. I mean we all know what Dean did but if Kevin can forgive Dean then Sam will have to eventually. But I am tired of the sam we are getting right now. I mean to me I am on Deans side until I see Sam do something that is mature. And right now he is acting immature to me. But sorry JMO.[/quote]
That’s kind of making a big leap, that Dean was ready to talk it out. In the past, Dean has said he just wants to put a couple of W’s on the board and put this behind them. You don’t see a problem with this, or the fact that he has yet to apologize and, if anything, doubled down by saying he’d do the same thing all over again?
[quote]
Can i say for the record that the writing is not really helping to many people to sympathise with his character. I mean Dean was all set to talk it out and what did Sam do he turned and headed toward his room. So to me if he wants to hear something from Dean he has to stick around and listen not turn tail and run. I mean the more he pushes Dean away like he has the more he is going to end up loosing Dean. Right now the relationship is on his terms. And Dean is abiding by him like in the impala everything is business. So this is what Sam wants this is what Dean is giving him. Dean will talk Sam just has to be able to stick around and listen. I mean we all know what Dean did but if Kevin can forgive Dean then Sam will have to eventually. But I am tired of the sam we are getting right now. I mean to me I am on Deans side until I see Sam do something that is mature. And right now he is acting immature to me. But sorry JMO.[/quote]
That’s kind of making a big leap, that Dean was ready to talk it out. In the past, Dean has said he just wants to put a couple of W’s on the board and put this behind them. You don’t see a problem with this, or the fact that he has yet to apologize and, if anything, doubled down by saying he’d do the same thing all over again?
[quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.[/quote]
I sure hope this isn’t where they’re going with this, other characters telling Sam to just get over it. But, last season everyone told Sam what a dick he was for not looking for Dean in purgatory so it wouldn’t surprise me.[/quote]
I hope they aren’t going that way either, but I’m starting to lose hope.
[quote][quote]@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.[/quote]
I sure hope this isn’t where they’re going with this, other characters telling Sam to just get over it. But, last season everyone told Sam what a dick he was for not looking for Dean in purgatory so it wouldn’t surprise me.[/quote]
I hope they aren’t going that way either, but I’m starting to lose hope.
[quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”suebsg9″]
Can i say for the record that the writing is not really helping to many people to sympathise with his character. I mean Dean was all set to talk it out and what did Sam do he turned and headed toward his room. So to me if he wants to hear something from Dean he has to stick around and listen not turn tail and run. I mean the more he pushes Dean away like he has the more he is going to end up loosing Dean. Right now the relationship is on his terms. And Dean is abiding by him like in the impala everything is business. So this is what Sam wants this is what Dean is giving him. Dean will talk Sam just has to be able to stick around and listen. I mean we all know what Dean did but if Kevin can forgive Dean then Sam will have to eventually. But I am tired of the sam we are getting right now. I mean to me I am on Deans side until I see Sam do something that is mature. And right now he is acting immature to me. But sorry JMO.[/quote]
That’s kind of making a big leap, that Dean was ready to talk it out. In the past, Dean has said he just wants to put a couple of W’s on the board and put this behind him. You don’t see a problem with this, or the fact that he has yet to apologize and, if anything, doubled down by saying he’d do the same thing all over again?[/quote]
That was first go around at talking we don’t know what would have been said but Sam eventually will have to try it again and not walk out of the room when Dean says something he doesn’t like. But Sam does have to own up to the fact that he did say yes to not closing the gates and also he did say yes to gadreel I mean he has to take ownership to his part in this also. Gad/Dean tricked him but once Sam can say NO to Dean and he could to the one that was in his head but when Gad/dean showed up and last ditch effort Sam said Yes and I think Sam knows he has to own that and he has to stop listening to Dean and make up his own mind but that is what they need to talk out. Everyone saying Sam has matured taken a step no he hasn’t he has babbled stuff that mad no sense and isn’t relative to the problem at hand. Him and Dean need to talk things out; he can’t walk away when he thinks the convo is done he has to be able to make it a two way street and listen to Dean. When he does that and they talk it out and they both AND I SAY BOTH listen to each other then they might be able to sort his mess out. But Sam is making this linger on and I know he is not happy with Dean but Dean is giving Sam what he wants is a business like relationship it maybe tearing Dean apart but at least he is now giving sam his space. But BOTH of them have to sit and talk and no one leaves when the other says something that the other says is wrong. If sam wants his apology or whatever he is looking for because at this point I am clueless he has to sit there and listen to Dean. He can’t just be the one calling the shots to make the brothers come back to being brothers they have to have their say. But like I said right now the writers are doing Sam no big favors. So I will believe when Sam is mature enough to sit down with his big brother and have an actual conversation and then I will think he is old enough to wear the big boy pants right now way he is acting I don’t think so and like I said I want to be on Sam’s side because he was wronged but Sam is just frustrating me. JMO
[quote][quote]
Can i say for the record that the writing is not really helping to many people to sympathise with his character. I mean Dean was all set to talk it out and what did Sam do he turned and headed toward his room. So to me if he wants to hear something from Dean he has to stick around and listen not turn tail and run. I mean the more he pushes Dean away like he has the more he is going to end up loosing Dean. Right now the relationship is on his terms. And Dean is abiding by him like in the impala everything is business. So this is what Sam wants this is what Dean is giving him. Dean will talk Sam just has to be able to stick around and listen. I mean we all know what Dean did but if Kevin can forgive Dean then Sam will have to eventually. But I am tired of the sam we are getting right now. I mean to me I am on Deans side until I see Sam do something that is mature. And right now he is acting immature to me. But sorry JMO.[/quote]
That’s kind of making a big leap, that Dean was ready to talk it out. In the past, Dean has said he just wants to put a couple of W’s on the board and put this behind him. You don’t see a problem with this, or the fact that he has yet to apologize and, if anything, doubled down by saying he’d do the same thing all over again?[/quote]
That was first go around at talking we don’t know what would have been said but Sam eventually will have to try it again and not walk out of the room when Dean says something he doesn’t like. But Sam does have to own up to the fact that he did say yes to not closing the gates and also he did say yes to gadreel I mean he has to take ownership to his part in this also. Gad/Dean tricked him but once Sam can say NO to Dean and he could to the one that was in his head but when Gad/dean showed up and last ditch effort Sam said Yes and I think Sam knows he has to own that and he has to stop listening to Dean and make up his own mind but that is what they need to talk out. Everyone saying Sam has matured taken a step no he hasn’t he has babbled stuff that mad no sense and isn’t relative to the problem at hand. Him and Dean need to talk things out; he can’t walk away when he thinks the convo is done he has to be able to make it a two way street and listen to Dean. When he does that and they talk it out and they both AND I SAY BOTH listen to each other then they might be able to sort his mess out. But Sam is making this linger on and I know he is not happy with Dean but Dean is giving Sam what he wants is a business like relationship it maybe tearing Dean apart but at least he is now giving sam his space. But BOTH of them have to sit and talk and no one leaves when the other says something that the other says is wrong. If sam wants his apology or whatever he is looking for because at this point I am clueless he has to sit there and listen to Dean. He can’t just be the one calling the shots to make the brothers come back to being brothers they have to have their say. But like I said right now the writers are doing Sam no big favors. So I will believe when Sam is mature enough to sit down with his big brother and have an actual conversation and then I will think he is old enough to wear the big boy pants right now way he is acting I don’t think so and like I said I want to be on Sam’s side because he was wronged but Sam is just frustrating me. JMO
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.[/quote]
I sure hope this isn’t where they’re going with this, other characters telling Sam to just get over it. But, last season everyone told Sam what a dick he was for not looking for Dean in purgatory so it wouldn’t surprise me.[/quote]
I hope they aren’t going that way either, but I’m starting to lose hope.[/quote]
Yeah, I’ve got a sick feeling that Sam is going to get the short end of the stick again. But I’m trying to be optimistic and I’ll gladly eat crow if they surprise me.
[quote][quote][quote]@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.[/quote]
I sure hope this isn’t where they’re going with this, other characters telling Sam to just get over it. But, last season everyone told Sam what a dick he was for not looking for Dean in purgatory so it wouldn’t surprise me.[/quote]
I hope they aren’t going that way either, but I’m starting to lose hope.[/quote]
Yeah, I’ve got a sick feeling that Sam is going to get the short end of the stick again. But I’m trying to be optimistic and I’ll gladly eat crow if they surprise me.
[quote name=”sylvia37″][quote name=”percysowner”][quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.[/quote]
I sure hope this isn’t where they’re going with this, other characters telling Sam to just get over it. But, last season everyone told Sam what a dick he was for not looking for Dean in purgatory so it wouldn’t surprise me.[/quote]
I hope they aren’t going that way either, but I’m starting to lose hope.[/quote]
Yeah, I’ve got a sick feeling that Sam is going to get the short end of the stick again. But I’m trying to be optimistic and I’ll gladly eat crow if they surprise me.[/quote]
Well right now Sam is calling the shots on the relationship and I am guessing its hard for him to shut the feelings off if dean is in trouble. You can see that pour out more and more and hopefully some of that leads up to whatever is going on with the mark of cain. But Dean is giving Sam what he wants. Dean wanted to talk Sam didn’t each retreated to their rooms even though I wish Deans room had his gun collection up and his weapon from purgatory. The room just doesn’t seem like his room unless there are more rooms with beds in them and he just took one farther from sam to give him space. I just hope Dean is not drinking anymore I mean he drinks but I hope we get Dean back cleaned up not that I don’t mind the fuzz but rather see him change by cooking again and drinking coffee and be like he was when he came back from purgatory.
[quote][quote][quote][quote]@11
Kevin can’t have been present through all the brother’s spat because much of what they were saying was said outside the bunker.
Add to that, Kevin might understand what happened to same as a concept, but he can’t understand the gravitas of the situation. Does he even know about Meg, or Lucifer or what it’s like to be possessed. So it’s rather easy for Kevin to tell Sam and Dean to get over it or have enough whump or whatever when he doesn’t understand what they need to get over.[/quote]
I sure hope this isn’t where they’re going with this, other characters telling Sam to just get over it. But, last season everyone told Sam what a dick he was for not looking for Dean in purgatory so it wouldn’t surprise me.[/quote]
I hope they aren’t going that way either, but I’m starting to lose hope.[/quote]
Yeah, I’ve got a sick feeling that Sam is going to get the short end of the stick again. But I’m trying to be optimistic and I’ll gladly eat crow if they surprise me.[/quote]
Well right now Sam is calling the shots on the relationship and I am guessing its hard for him to shut the feelings off if dean is in trouble. You can see that pour out more and more and hopefully some of that leads up to whatever is going on with the mark of cain. But Dean is giving Sam what he wants. Dean wanted to talk Sam didn’t each retreated to their rooms even though I wish Deans room had his gun collection up and his weapon from purgatory. The room just doesn’t seem like his room unless there are more rooms with beds in them and he just took one farther from sam to give him space. I just hope Dean is not drinking anymore I mean he drinks but I hope we get Dean back cleaned up not that I don’t mind the fuzz but rather see him change by cooking again and drinking coffee and be like he was when he came back from purgatory.
@29
I don’t think Sam needs sympathy. Being sympathetic towards a character generally blinds us as to what they said or did. I think Sam needs understanding.
I think Sam left because he just wasn’t ready to hear what Dean was going to say at that stage. In all honesty, given what was just said by Kevin, we could nearly predict what Dean was going to say at that stage ‘C’mon Sammy, Kevin, our dead friend, wants us to get over it. Why can’t you just get over it? etc’. Sam has always had weak resolve when it come to Dean so if he was subjected to that sort of emotional manipulation I could see him giving in, so I’m glad that he’s standing his ground now, even if he is deemed ‘unsympathetic’ and ‘immature’.
And don’t forget, 2 episodes ago Dean, despite knowing how much what he did affected Sam, was saying that he wasn’t sorry about what he did and that he’d do it again. That’s a hell of a lot to just expect Sam to just get over.
@29
I don’t think Sam needs sympathy. Being sympathetic towards a character generally blinds us as to what they said or did. I think Sam needs understanding.
I think Sam left because he just wasn’t ready to hear what Dean was going to say at that stage. In all honesty, given what was just said by Kevin, we could nearly predict what Dean was going to say at that stage ‘C’mon Sammy, Kevin, our dead friend, wants us to get over it. Why can’t you just get over it? etc’. Sam has always had weak resolve when it come to Dean so if he was subjected to that sort of emotional manipulation I could see him giving in, so I’m glad that he’s standing his ground now, even if he is deemed ‘unsympathetic’ and ‘immature’.
And don’t forget, 2 episodes ago Dean, despite knowing how much what he did affected Sam, was saying that he wasn’t sorry about what he did and that he’d do it again. That’s a hell of a lot to just expect Sam to just get over.
[quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@29
I don’t think Sam needs sympathy. Being sympathetic towards a character generally blinds us as to what they said or did. I think Sam needs understanding.
I think Sam left because he just wasn’t ready to hear what Dean was going to say at that stage. In all honesty, given what was just said by Kevin, we could nearly predict what Dean was going to say at that stage ‘C’mon Sammy, Kevin, our dead friend, wants us to get over it. Why can’t you just get over it? etc’. Sam has always had weak resolve when it come to Dean so if he was subjected to that sort of emotional manipulation I could see him giving in, so I’m glad that he’s standing his ground now, even if he is deemed ‘unsympathetic’ and ‘immature’.
And don’t forget, 2 episodes ago Dean, despite knowing how much what he did affected Sam, was saying that he wasn’t sorry about what he did and that he’d do it again. That’s a hell of a lot to just expect Sam to just get over.[/quote]
I wouid think that Dean has saw even W’s on the board is not even helping the relationship so doubt he would do that again. And using Kevin is not way to go I would be intrested at what he was trying to say before sam left. But I guess he has to wait and he will until Sam makes the first move and seems Sam has to make the first move.
[quote]@29
I don’t think Sam needs sympathy. Being sympathetic towards a character generally blinds us as to what they said or did. I think Sam needs understanding.
I think Sam left because he just wasn’t ready to hear what Dean was going to say at that stage. In all honesty, given what was just said by Kevin, we could nearly predict what Dean was going to say at that stage ‘C’mon Sammy, Kevin, our dead friend, wants us to get over it. Why can’t you just get over it? etc’. Sam has always had weak resolve when it come to Dean so if he was subjected to that sort of emotional manipulation I could see him giving in, so I’m glad that he’s standing his ground now, even if he is deemed ‘unsympathetic’ and ‘immature’.
And don’t forget, 2 episodes ago Dean, despite knowing how much what he did affected Sam, was saying that he wasn’t sorry about what he did and that he’d do it again. That’s a hell of a lot to just expect Sam to just get over.[/quote]
I wouid think that Dean has saw even W’s on the board is not even helping the relationship so doubt he would do that again. And using Kevin is not way to go I would be intrested at what he was trying to say before sam left. But I guess he has to wait and he will until Sam makes the first move and seems Sam has to make the first move.
I loved this episode, this season is blowing me away with the emotions and action! I’m actually kinda speechless at this point…need to rewatch. 🙂
I loved this episode, this season is blowing me away with the emotions and action! I’m actually kinda speechless at this point…need to rewatch. 🙂
[quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@29
I don’t think Sam needs sympathy. Being sympathetic towards a character generally blinds us as to what they said or did. I think Sam needs understanding.
I think Sam left because he just wasn’t ready to hear what Dean was going to say at that stage. In all honesty, given what was just said by Kevin, we could nearly predict what Dean was going to say at that stage ‘C’mon Sammy, Kevin, our dead friend, wants us to get over it. Why can’t you just get over it? etc’. Sam has always had weak resolve when it come to Dean so if he was subjected to that sort of emotional manipulation I could see him giving in, so I’m glad that he’s standing his ground now, even if he is deemed ‘unsympathetic’ and ‘immature’.
And don’t forget, 2 episodes ago Dean, despite knowing how much what he did affected Sam, was saying that he wasn’t sorry about what he did and that he’d do it again. That’s a hell of a lot to just expect Sam to just get over.[/quote]
Amen to that…
[quote]@29
I don’t think Sam needs sympathy. Being sympathetic towards a character generally blinds us as to what they said or did. I think Sam needs understanding.
I think Sam left because he just wasn’t ready to hear what Dean was going to say at that stage. In all honesty, given what was just said by Kevin, we could nearly predict what Dean was going to say at that stage ‘C’mon Sammy, Kevin, our dead friend, wants us to get over it. Why can’t you just get over it? etc’. Sam has always had weak resolve when it come to Dean so if he was subjected to that sort of emotional manipulation I could see him giving in, so I’m glad that he’s standing his ground now, even if he is deemed ‘unsympathetic’ and ‘immature’.
And don’t forget, 2 episodes ago Dean, despite knowing how much what he did affected Sam, was saying that he wasn’t sorry about what he did and that he’d do it again. That’s a hell of a lot to just expect Sam to just get over.[/quote]
Amen to that…
In all fairness to Sam he did just have to tell Mrs. Tran that her son was dead. He stills feels guilty about killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told him he knew it wasn’t him doesn’t erase what Sam feels. I’m sure he also still blames Dean for having him possessed in the first place. Watching Mrs. Tran and Kevin leave the bunker as mom and ghost had to have been hard. Besides knowing that Kevin was now stuck in limbo land because again Sam killed him. I don’t think that Sam was in a place at the moment to have a heart to heart with Dean. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to he just couldn’t.
I too was puzzled by the third victim. And has anyone noticed that Dean doesn’t seem to be sleeping? MOC side affect maybe? We really need to get on with that storyline.
In all fairness to Sam he did just have to tell Mrs. Tran that her son was dead. He stills feels guilty about killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told him he knew it wasn’t him doesn’t erase what Sam feels. I’m sure he also still blames Dean for having him possessed in the first place. Watching Mrs. Tran and Kevin leave the bunker as mom and ghost had to have been hard. Besides knowing that Kevin was now stuck in limbo land because again Sam killed him. I don’t think that Sam was in a place at the moment to have a heart to heart with Dean. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to he just couldn’t.
I too was puzzled by the third victim. And has anyone noticed that Dean doesn’t seem to be sleeping? MOC side affect maybe? We really need to get on with that storyline.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]In all fairness to Sam he did just have to tell Mrs. Tran that her son was dead. He stills feels guilty about killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told him he knew it wasn’t him doesn’t erase what Sam feels. I’m sure he also still blames Dean for having him possessed in the first place. Watching Mrs. Tran and Kevin leave the bunker as mom and ghost had to have been hard. Besides knowing that Kevin was now stuck in limbo land because again Sam killed him. I don’t think that Sam was in a place at the moment to have a heart to heart with Dean. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to he just couldn’t.
I too was puzzled by the third victim. And has anyone noticed that Dean doesn’t seem to be sleeping? MOC side affect maybe? We really need to get on with that storyline.[/quote]
Good points never thought of that; forgot how hard it was for him to convey about Kevin. And I think anything Dean does we will keep saying is that because of the mark? I just miss deans room 🙁
[quote]In all fairness to Sam he did just have to tell Mrs. Tran that her son was dead. He stills feels guilty about killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told him he knew it wasn’t him doesn’t erase what Sam feels. I’m sure he also still blames Dean for having him possessed in the first place. Watching Mrs. Tran and Kevin leave the bunker as mom and ghost had to have been hard. Besides knowing that Kevin was now stuck in limbo land because again Sam killed him. I don’t think that Sam was in a place at the moment to have a heart to heart with Dean. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to he just couldn’t.
I too was puzzled by the third victim. And has anyone noticed that Dean doesn’t seem to be sleeping? MOC side affect maybe? We really need to get on with that storyline.[/quote]
Good points never thought of that; forgot how hard it was for him to convey about Kevin. And I think anything Dean does we will keep saying is that because of the mark? I just miss deans room 🙁
@30 Sue: I do see your point, but I do understand why Sam is angry. He has every right to be angry but the way he is being written is fustrating. I didn’t like that he walked away before a convo could even get started between them. (Also, the reason he walked away is because he may have felt very tempted to let it go after what Kevin said to them. But he is sticking to his guns on this. He didn’t just storm off, he hesitated at his door as if he wanted to turn back-or was that Dean? I’ll have to watch it again.) That just bothered me. A reconciliation can only take place if two people talk to each other.
My consolation prize though is that Sam and Dean are both suffering the absence of eeach other and this I hope will spur them to mend this and deepen their relationship. It’s very obvious, at least to me, that Sam is missing Dean but he’s being adamant about fixing this and so just has to suffer through it.
@nappi815: Very well said. I agree.I think Sam being mad at him is the best way to reach Dean outside of walking away from him. (But isn’t this- I’m going to stand close to you but not too close- just a tease from sam. That’s gotta be very fustrating to Dean.
Does anyone else think the MoC is affecting Dean’s feeling for Crowley?
I didn’t like this episode very much at first but then Bokdal pointed out that this time it was Dean that got conked on the head instead of Sam and that was something I’d wished for earlier, so hey! this episode is a win for me. Yay! 😆
@30 Sue: I do see your point, but I do understand why Sam is angry. He has every right to be angry but the way he is being written is fustrating. I didn’t like that he walked away before a convo could even get started between them. (Also, the reason he walked away is because he may have felt very tempted to let it go after what Kevin said to them. But he is sticking to his guns on this. He didn’t just storm off, he hesitated at his door as if he wanted to turn back-or was that Dean? I’ll have to watch it again.) That just bothered me. A reconciliation can only take place if two people talk to each other.
My consolation prize though is that Sam and Dean are both suffering the absence of eeach other and this I hope will spur them to mend this and deepen their relationship. It’s very obvious, at least to me, that Sam is missing Dean but he’s being adamant about fixing this and so just has to suffer through it.
@nappi815: Very well said. I agree.I think Sam being mad at him is the best way to reach Dean outside of walking away from him. (But isn’t this- I’m going to stand close to you but not too close- just a tease from sam. That’s gotta be very fustrating to Dean.
Does anyone else think the MoC is affecting Dean’s feeling for Crowley?
I didn’t like this episode very much at first but then Bokdal pointed out that this time it was Dean that got conked on the head instead of Sam and that was something I’d wished for earlier, so hey! this episode is a win for me. Yay! 😆
[quote name=”lkeke35″]@30 Sue: I do see your point, but I do understand why Sam is angry. He has every right to be angry but the way he is being written is fustrating. I didn’t like that he walked away before a convo could even get started between them. (Also, the reason he walked away is because he may have felt very tempted to let it go after what Kevin said to them. But he is sticking to his guns on this. He didn’t just storm off, he hesitated at his door as if he wanted to turn back-or was that Dean? I’ll have to watch it again.) That just bothered me. A reconciliation can only take place if two people talk to each other.
My consolation prize though is that Sam and Dean are both suffering the absence of eeach other and this I hope will spur them to mend this and deepen their relationship. It’s very obvious, at least to me, that Sam is missing Dean but he’s being adamant about fixing this and so just has to suffer through it.
@nappi815: Very well said. I agree.I think Sam being mad at him is the best way to reach Dean outside of walking away from him. (But isn’t this- I’m going to stand close to you but not too close- just a tease from sam. That’s gotta be very fustrating to Dean.
Does anyone else think the MoC is affecting Dean’s feeling for Crowley?
I didn’t like this episode very much at first but then Bokdal pointed out that this time it was Dean that got conked on the head instead of Sam and that was something I’d wished for earlier, so hey! this episode is a win for me. Yay! :lol:[/quote]
I think Sam is missing Dean I think he was hopeing Dean would make some kind of crack when he kept on going on about the foot fedish and Dean was just acting all business like just what sam wanted out of him. I did enjoy that Dean made up for it when he called out what the guy in the storage place would look like that was hilarious. I keep thinking like what Sam said to Dean the little snark about Crowley not being into him was again sam’s way of making light of situation to maybe kill the tension. I think he does miss the dean he gets on hunts that kids around and stuff. I think when he went into the hunting thing with Dean that he was going to get that side of Dean but when he just said they were not brothers and just everything is business like Dean is doing that; brothers tease and have fun business partners keep it serious. again my opinion.
[quote]@30 Sue: I do see your point, but I do understand why Sam is angry. He has every right to be angry but the way he is being written is fustrating. I didn’t like that he walked away before a convo could even get started between them. (Also, the reason he walked away is because he may have felt very tempted to let it go after what Kevin said to them. But he is sticking to his guns on this. He didn’t just storm off, he hesitated at his door as if he wanted to turn back-or was that Dean? I’ll have to watch it again.) That just bothered me. A reconciliation can only take place if two people talk to each other.
My consolation prize though is that Sam and Dean are both suffering the absence of eeach other and this I hope will spur them to mend this and deepen their relationship. It’s very obvious, at least to me, that Sam is missing Dean but he’s being adamant about fixing this and so just has to suffer through it.
@nappi815: Very well said. I agree.I think Sam being mad at him is the best way to reach Dean outside of walking away from him. (But isn’t this- I’m going to stand close to you but not too close- just a tease from sam. That’s gotta be very fustrating to Dean.
Does anyone else think the MoC is affecting Dean’s feeling for Crowley?
I didn’t like this episode very much at first but then Bokdal pointed out that this time it was Dean that got conked on the head instead of Sam and that was something I’d wished for earlier, so hey! this episode is a win for me. Yay! :lol:[/quote]
I think Sam is missing Dean I think he was hopeing Dean would make some kind of crack when he kept on going on about the foot fedish and Dean was just acting all business like just what sam wanted out of him. I did enjoy that Dean made up for it when he called out what the guy in the storage place would look like that was hilarious. I keep thinking like what Sam said to Dean the little snark about Crowley not being into him was again sam’s way of making light of situation to maybe kill the tension. I think he does miss the dean he gets on hunts that kids around and stuff. I think when he went into the hunting thing with Dean that he was going to get that side of Dean but when he just said they were not brothers and just everything is business like Dean is doing that; brothers tease and have fun business partners keep it serious. again my opinion.
I think the blame for Kevin’s death is squarely at Dean’s feet. If you go back far enough Kevin could also have a case that S&D both got him into this in the first place. Sam didn’t check on Kevin after Dean disappeared. He was not protected by them well at all, he wasn’t even brought into the bunker at first.
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.
I think the blame for Kevin’s death is squarely at Dean’s feet. If you go back far enough Kevin could also have a case that S&D both got him into this in the first place. Sam didn’t check on Kevin after Dean disappeared. He was not protected by them well at all, he wasn’t even brought into the bunker at first.
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.
[quote name=”leah d”]I think the blame for Kevin’s death is squarely at Dean’s feet. If you go back far enough Kevin could also have a case that S&D both got him into this in the first place. Sam didn’t check on Kevin after Dean disappeared. He was not protected by them well at all, he wasn’t even brought into the bunker at first.
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I kept on waiting for Ms Tran to just tear at Dean and even Kevin. But I think they can see Dean has shouldered the blame. But Dean has taken Kevin’s death on him; Sam just has to learn to let that go.
[quote]I think the blame for Kevin’s death is squarely at Dean’s feet. If you go back far enough Kevin could also have a case that S&D both got him into this in the first place. Sam didn’t check on Kevin after Dean disappeared. He was not protected by them well at all, he wasn’t even brought into the bunker at first.
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I kept on waiting for Ms Tran to just tear at Dean and even Kevin. But I think they can see Dean has shouldered the blame. But Dean has taken Kevin’s death on him; Sam just has to learn to let that go.
[quote name=”leah d”]
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I wonder how much of the situation Kevin and Mrs Tran actually understood. Did they know Gadreel was inside Sam due to Dean’s trickery? Perhaps not.
Anyway, no, I wouldn’t want Kevin to go all hateful and vengeful spirit, cos I think Kevin is better than that. But he should have given Dean a right rollicking for not giving him the head’s up in Holy Terror. A simple ‘go cover your room in anti-angel sigils and don’t come out until I tell you’ would have done it.
[quote]
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I wonder how much of the situation Kevin and Mrs Tran actually understood. Did they know Gadreel was inside Sam due to Dean’s trickery? Perhaps not.
Anyway, no, I wouldn’t want Kevin to go all hateful and vengeful spirit, cos I think Kevin is better than that. But he should have given Dean a right rollicking for not giving him the head’s up in Holy Terror. A simple ‘go cover your room in anti-angel sigils and don’t come out until I tell you’ would have done it.
Wait a second, this just popped into my head.
So, if Sam had died in the season premiere, Death or whatever reaper it was would have delivered him to the veil? So reapers are still doing their job, but they’re stuffing souls there instead because Heaven is closed for business?
I really, really, hope Sam and Dean realize that it would have been a huge mistake to close the gates of Hell. Some souls deserve to go there.
Wait a second, this just popped into my head.
So, if Sam had died in the season premiere, Death or whatever reaper it was would have delivered him to the veil? So reapers are still doing their job, but they’re stuffing souls there instead because Heaven is closed for business?
I really, really, hope Sam and Dean realize that it would have been a huge mistake to close the gates of Hell. Some souls deserve to go there.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]In all fairness to Sam he did just have to tell Mrs. Tran that her son was dead. He stills feels guilty about killing Kevin…
I don’t think that Sam was in a place at the moment to have a heart to heart with Dean. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to he just couldn’t.
[/quote]
Agreed. My dad was a policeman and he says bearing that kind of bad news totally destroyed him emotionally for a day or two.
[quote]In all fairness to Sam he did just have to tell Mrs. Tran that her son was dead. He stills feels guilty about killing Kevin…
I don’t think that Sam was in a place at the moment to have a heart to heart with Dean. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to he just couldn’t.
[/quote]
Agreed. My dad was a policeman and he says bearing that kind of bad news totally destroyed him emotionally for a day or two.
[quote name=”suebsg9″][quote name=”leah d”]I think the blame for Kevin’s death is squarely at Dean’s feet. If you go back far enough Kevin could also have a case that S&D both got him into this in the first place. Sam didn’t check on Kevin after Dean disappeared. He was not protected by them well at all, he wasn’t even brought into the bunker at first.
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I kept on waiting for Ms Tran to just tear at Dean and even Kevin. But I think they can see Dean has shouldered the blame. But Dean has taken Kevin’s death on him; Sam just has to learn to let that go.[/quote]
I was unhappy with Sam not looking for Kevin when Dean disappeared. However, in retrospect, Kevin did much better on his own than under the “protection” of the Winchesters. Kevin was under the radar, developed defense mechanisms, was eating and sleeping. His mother was under surveillance and his girlfriend was possessed, but if Sam had found Kevin and hidden him Crowley would have put those actions in motion to try and find Kevin. Although Crowley was looking for him he wasn’t a real threat until Sam and Dean decided to close the Gates of Hell. Yes, that could have changed and Crowley could have caught Kevin but Sam not looking for Kevin didn’t leave him harmed. After Sam and Dean found him Kevin was not eating or sleeping well, actually got taken by Crowley and was finally murdered by Gadreel in Sam’s body. His mother was kidnapped and tortured.
I’m somewhat baffled by the idea that Sam is just supposed to let go of his feelings about being used to kill Kevin, while understanding that Dean is allowed to wallow because that’s how Dean is.
[quote][quote]I think the blame for Kevin’s death is squarely at Dean’s feet. If you go back far enough Kevin could also have a case that S&D both got him into this in the first place. Sam didn’t check on Kevin after Dean disappeared. He was not protected by them well at all, he wasn’t even brought into the bunker at first.
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I kept on waiting for Ms Tran to just tear at Dean and even Kevin. But I think they can see Dean has shouldered the blame. But Dean has taken Kevin’s death on him; Sam just has to learn to let that go.[/quote]
I was unhappy with Sam not looking for Kevin when Dean disappeared. However, in retrospect, Kevin did much better on his own than under the “protection” of the Winchesters. Kevin was under the radar, developed defense mechanisms, was eating and sleeping. His mother was under surveillance and his girlfriend was possessed, but if Sam had found Kevin and hidden him Crowley would have put those actions in motion to try and find Kevin. Although Crowley was looking for him he wasn’t a real threat until Sam and Dean decided to close the Gates of Hell. Yes, that could have changed and Crowley could have caught Kevin but Sam not looking for Kevin didn’t leave him harmed. After Sam and Dean found him Kevin was not eating or sleeping well, actually got taken by Crowley and was finally murdered by Gadreel in Sam’s body. His mother was kidnapped and tortured.
I’m somewhat baffled by the idea that Sam is just supposed to let go of his feelings about being used to kill Kevin, while understanding that Dean is allowed to wallow because that’s how Dean is.
[quote name=”alice”]
I really, really, hope Sam and Dean realize that it would have been a huge mistake to close the gates of Hell. Some souls deserve to go there.[/quote]
Personally, I don’t think anyone deserves eternal punishment for a temporal crime. Besides, they just become demons and – if they get out – make it worse for everyone else.
But that’s maybe too important and complicated a philosophical debate to have over the internet 😀
[quote]
I really, really, hope Sam and Dean realize that it would have been a huge mistake to close the gates of Hell. Some souls deserve to go there.[/quote]
Personally, I don’t think anyone deserves eternal punishment for a temporal crime. Besides, they just become demons and – if they get out – make it worse for everyone else.
But that’s maybe too important and complicated a philosophical debate to have over the internet 😀
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote name=”suebsg9″][quote name=”leah d”]I think the blame for Kevin’s death is squarely at Dean’s feet. If you go back far enough Kevin could also have a case that S&D both got him into this in the first place. Sam didn’t check on Kevin after Dean disappeared. He was not protected by them well at all, he wasn’t even brought into the bunker at first.
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I kept on waiting for Ms Tran to just tear at Dean and even Kevin. But I think they can see Dean has shouldered the blame. But Dean has taken Kevin’s death on him; Sam just has to learn to let that go.[/quote]
I was unhappy with Sam not looking for Kevin when Dean disappeared. However, in retrospect, Kevin did much better on his own than under the “protection” of the Winchesters. Kevin was under the radar, developed defense mechanisms, was eating and sleeping. His mother was under surveillance and his girlfriend was possessed, but if Sam had found Kevin and hidden him Crowley would have put those actions in motion to try and find Kevin. Although Crowley was looking for him he wasn’t a real threat until Sam and Dean decided to close the Gates of Hell. Yes, that could have changed and Crowley could have caught Kevin but Sam not looking for Kevin didn’t leave him harmed. After Sam and Dean found him Kevin was not eating or sleeping well, actually got taken by Crowley and was finally murdered by Gadreel in Sam’s body. His mother was kidnapped and tortured.
I’m somewhat baffled by the idea that Sam is just supposed to let go of his feelings about being used to kill Kevin, while understanding that Dean is allowed to wallow because that’s how Dean is.[/quote]
I am not saying he shouldn’t but I think Sam is also loosing perspective on what the fight with his brother is about. I don’t think he thought that Dean would take to his demands so easily. Granted it took Dean some time but Dean is following what Sam wants. But I think with Kevin pretty much telling Sam he didn’t do it I know it wasn’t you should kind of give sam some kind of relief. But that is just my opinion.
[quote][quote][quote]I think the blame for Kevin’s death is squarely at Dean’s feet. If you go back far enough Kevin could also have a case that S&D both got him into this in the first place. Sam didn’t check on Kevin after Dean disappeared. He was not protected by them well at all, he wasn’t even brought into the bunker at first.
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I kept on waiting for Ms Tran to just tear at Dean and even Kevin. But I think they can see Dean has shouldered the blame. But Dean has taken Kevin’s death on him; Sam just has to learn to let that go.[/quote]
I was unhappy with Sam not looking for Kevin when Dean disappeared. However, in retrospect, Kevin did much better on his own than under the “protection” of the Winchesters. Kevin was under the radar, developed defense mechanisms, was eating and sleeping. His mother was under surveillance and his girlfriend was possessed, but if Sam had found Kevin and hidden him Crowley would have put those actions in motion to try and find Kevin. Although Crowley was looking for him he wasn’t a real threat until Sam and Dean decided to close the Gates of Hell. Yes, that could have changed and Crowley could have caught Kevin but Sam not looking for Kevin didn’t leave him harmed. After Sam and Dean found him Kevin was not eating or sleeping well, actually got taken by Crowley and was finally murdered by Gadreel in Sam’s body. His mother was kidnapped and tortured.
I’m somewhat baffled by the idea that Sam is just supposed to let go of his feelings about being used to kill Kevin, while understanding that Dean is allowed to wallow because that’s how Dean is.[/quote]
I am not saying he shouldn’t but I think Sam is also loosing perspective on what the fight with his brother is about. I don’t think he thought that Dean would take to his demands so easily. Granted it took Dean some time but Dean is following what Sam wants. But I think with Kevin pretty much telling Sam he didn’t do it I know it wasn’t you should kind of give sam some kind of relief. But that is just my opinion.
[quote name=”suebsg9″] … Dean is following what Sam wants.[/quote]
I can’t see how Dean is doing what Sam wants. He just said he’d do it all over again – ie have Sam possessed and Kevin killed – rather than admit his mistake.
Obviously I’m not sure since the writers have given Sam so little informative dialogue, but IMO Sam just wants to make sure no-one else dies because Sam is alive. So no more deals that end up with Dean in Hell and no more letting unknown angels into the bunker to kill unsuspecting prophets. Doesn’t seem particularly unreasonable to me.
[quote] … Dean is following what Sam wants.[/quote]
I can’t see how Dean is doing what Sam wants. He just said he’d do it all over again – ie have Sam possessed and Kevin killed – rather than admit his mistake.
Obviously I’m not sure since the writers have given Sam so little informative dialogue, but IMO Sam just wants to make sure no-one else dies because Sam is alive. So no more deals that end up with Dean in Hell and no more letting unknown angels into the bunker to kill unsuspecting prophets. Doesn’t seem particularly unreasonable to me.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”leah d”]
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I wonder how much of the situation Kevin and Mrs Tran actually understood. Did they know Gadreel was inside Sam due to Dean’s trickery? Perhaps not.
Anyway, no, I wouldn’t want Kevin to go all hateful and vengeful spirit, cos I think Kevin is better than that. But he should have given Dean a right rollicking for not giving him the head’s up in Holy Terror. A simple ‘go cover your room in anti-angel sigils and don’t come out until I tell you’ would have done it.[/quote]
I don’t disagree with this. I think Kevin was let down by Dean in particular whose actions led directly to his death and in the long run by everybody who should have been watching out for him. He got a raw deal for sure! He SHOULD have been angry but Kevin is ultimately a kind and forgiving person. For now. 🙂
[quote][quote]
My feeling is that Kevin’s first priority was his mother. It was what was most important to him after death. I don’t think he gave Dean a pass. I don’t think he hates Dean for what happened either. Maybe he should have gone all vengeful and raged around the bunker, I don’t know, but it seemed in character that he wasn’t full of rage to me. I am surprised Ms tran didn’t tear Dean a new one though. Opinions will vary of course.[/quote]
I wonder how much of the situation Kevin and Mrs Tran actually understood. Did they know Gadreel was inside Sam due to Dean’s trickery? Perhaps not.
Anyway, no, I wouldn’t want Kevin to go all hateful and vengeful spirit, cos I think Kevin is better than that. But he should have given Dean a right rollicking for not giving him the head’s up in Holy Terror. A simple ‘go cover your room in anti-angel sigils and don’t come out until I tell you’ would have done it.[/quote]
I don’t disagree with this. I think Kevin was let down by Dean in particular whose actions led directly to his death and in the long run by everybody who should have been watching out for him. He got a raw deal for sure! He SHOULD have been angry but Kevin is ultimately a kind and forgiving person. For now. 🙂
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”suebsg9″] … Dean is following what Sam wants.[/quote]
I can’t see how Dean is doing what Sam wants. He just said he’d do it all over again – ie have Sam possessed and Kevin killed – rather than admit his mistake.
Obviously I’m not sure since the writers have given Sam so little informative dialogue, but IMO Sam just wants to make sure no-one else dies because Sam is alive. So no more deals that end up with Dean in Hell and no more letting unknown angels into the bunker to kill unsuspecting prophets. Doesn’t seem particularly unreasonable to me.[/quote]
Why do you think Cain gave Dean that mark because he won’t ever kill sam. dean would rather die because that is how he sees his life ending. And Sam before the trials had an out Dean was all set to let him go to amelia. He said problem with Cas he will take of but nope Sam came back. Sam took on the trials and when Dean ran in to say stop this will kill you he said so and then he told dean what he confessed and then what happend the brothers reunited as one and SAM WANTED TO STOP THE TRIALS. so ok Sam has to remember hey I did stop the trials that is on me. And then well now we know Death wasn’t there but I pretty much figured out no souls were getting up in heaven because where do angels go when they die not to heaven so souls were not bound for there. So when Dean showed up again gad/dean told sam ‘there ain’t no you if there no me” or whatever and what did sammy do tell me he said what do i do and he said yes. Granted he got played and Dean wanted to tell sam so give him either angel in him or not and granted the lies yes Dean is accountable for and Dean knows that he has to figure when sam wants to talk he will. But Dean is sticking to his guns about he won’t let Sam go; Dean would rather go first and I think he wants the happy life again which last season gave sam choice sam choose to stay and hunt. So sam has to take accountability for what he said yes. Minute he learns to say NO to big brother he will then maybe start growing up. But until then he will always be sammy. And Kevin did try to say I knew it wasn’t you. But Sam now has to make up his mind on what he wants from dean in this working relationship dean is giving him business like as much as Sam tries to make light of stuff and get that funny side to dean to come out. But I doubt that Dean will back down from letting sam go. Its not in him. And I believe that and that to me makes dean who he is hero or not.
[quote][quote] … Dean is following what Sam wants.[/quote]
I can’t see how Dean is doing what Sam wants. He just said he’d do it all over again – ie have Sam possessed and Kevin killed – rather than admit his mistake.
Obviously I’m not sure since the writers have given Sam so little informative dialogue, but IMO Sam just wants to make sure no-one else dies because Sam is alive. So no more deals that end up with Dean in Hell and no more letting unknown angels into the bunker to kill unsuspecting prophets. Doesn’t seem particularly unreasonable to me.[/quote]
Why do you think Cain gave Dean that mark because he won’t ever kill sam. dean would rather die because that is how he sees his life ending. And Sam before the trials had an out Dean was all set to let him go to amelia. He said problem with Cas he will take of but nope Sam came back. Sam took on the trials and when Dean ran in to say stop this will kill you he said so and then he told dean what he confessed and then what happend the brothers reunited as one and SAM WANTED TO STOP THE TRIALS. so ok Sam has to remember hey I did stop the trials that is on me. And then well now we know Death wasn’t there but I pretty much figured out no souls were getting up in heaven because where do angels go when they die not to heaven so souls were not bound for there. So when Dean showed up again gad/dean told sam ‘there ain’t no you if there no me” or whatever and what did sammy do tell me he said what do i do and he said yes. Granted he got played and Dean wanted to tell sam so give him either angel in him or not and granted the lies yes Dean is accountable for and Dean knows that he has to figure when sam wants to talk he will. But Dean is sticking to his guns about he won’t let Sam go; Dean would rather go first and I think he wants the happy life again which last season gave sam choice sam choose to stay and hunt. So sam has to take accountability for what he said yes. Minute he learns to say NO to big brother he will then maybe start growing up. But until then he will always be sammy. And Kevin did try to say I knew it wasn’t you. But Sam now has to make up his mind on what he wants from dean in this working relationship dean is giving him business like as much as Sam tries to make light of stuff and get that funny side to dean to come out. But I doubt that Dean will back down from letting sam go. Its not in him. And I believe that and that to me makes dean who he is hero or not.
Does anyone have any idea why Crowley would keep 3 humans in storage lockers and tell his minions to protect them. What is the point of that? What significance do they have? And yeah, what happened to the third?
Does anyone have any idea why Crowley would keep 3 humans in storage lockers and tell his minions to protect them. What is the point of that? What significance do they have? And yeah, what happened to the third?
Interesting point Alice.
I feel like that is going to be Castiels story. Maybe he is going to lead the angels and all the souls in the veil to heaven. Or sacrifice himself doing it? The end of pretty boy angel??
So Bart isn’t the big bad he was just a faction? So back to Metatron and Gadreel as the problem. But not for Sam and Dean? Crowley and Abbadon are their problem? Or are they going to split. Dean and Crowley deal with Abbadon and Sam and Cas deal with Metatron and Gadreel? I would actually like to see those pairings. An awful lot of ground to cover but it looks like the story is starting to take shape?
Interesting point Alice.
I feel like that is going to be Castiels story. Maybe he is going to lead the angels and all the souls in the veil to heaven. Or sacrifice himself doing it? The end of pretty boy angel??
So Bart isn’t the big bad he was just a faction? So back to Metatron and Gadreel as the problem. But not for Sam and Dean? Crowley and Abbadon are their problem? Or are they going to split. Dean and Crowley deal with Abbadon and Sam and Cas deal with Metatron and Gadreel? I would actually like to see those pairings. An awful lot of ground to cover but it looks like the story is starting to take shape?
Overnight ratings are pretty good if they don’t adjust down. I guess some markets were pre-empted for basketball. 1.1 2.44
Overnight ratings are pretty good if they don’t adjust down. I guess some markets were pre-empted for basketball. 1.1 2.44
I wish we had gotten to follow Sam into his room. Why are the writers so insistant on keeping us from Sams POV? On what he is feeling/thinking when he is alone?
MAkes me worry.
I wish we had gotten to follow Sam into his room. Why are the writers so insistant on keeping us from Sams POV? On what he is feeling/thinking when he is alone?
MAkes me worry.
I like the twist on the Cain and Abel story, and the Mark of Cain, but I do have a minor quibble. After their big broment in 8.23 Sacrifice, with Dean making a point of telling Sam all the good they could do with what they’ve learned, why didn’t they try to cure Abaddon? Did they forget all they crap they learned in S8?
I like the twist on the Cain and Abel story, and the Mark of Cain, but I do have a minor quibble. After their big broment in 8.23 Sacrifice, with Dean making a point of telling Sam all the good they could do with what they’ve learned, why didn’t they try to cure Abaddon? Did they forget all they crap they learned in S8?
[quote name=”amyh”]I wish we had gotten to follow Sam into his room. Why are the writers so insistant on keeping us from Sams POV? On what he is feeling/thinking when he is alone?
MAkes me worry.[/quote]
LOL… you know Sam, he’s a riddle wrapped inside an enigma wrapped inside a taco
[quote]I wish we had gotten to follow Sam into his room. Why are the writers so insistant on keeping us from Sams POV? On what he is feeling/thinking when he is alone?
MAkes me worry.[/quote]
LOL… you know Sam, he’s a riddle wrapped inside an enigma wrapped inside a taco
Man, why do I think I love the fluffy, happy kind of stories, when what really keeps me up at night, makes me think, and fascinates me are those stories that tear my heart out? Supernatural is just proving this to me once again.
Sam, man, he’s so mad he’s practically quivering, and yet he’s also feeling guilty, because he knows what he means to Dean, and he knows how Dean took what he said to him at the end of the last episode. But I don’t buy that Sam wouldn’t save Dean no matter what. He’s done it before, and if there’s one thing we’ve learned from SPN, it’s that character growth is often short-lived and mistakes are always repeated. So I watch Sam struggle with his pain and his anger and his guilt and just love/hate it.
And Dean, man, Dean is breaking my heart and pissing me off. I know Dean wallows in self-hatred and guilt, but this is epic levels of wallowing. I couldn’t hear exactly what Kevin said when he was first coming through in the kitchen, but it was along the lines of, I die and I’m stuck listening to Dean angst all over the place? If Dean says “Kevin’s death is on me” one more time… And yet, that’s exactly Dean; he thinks it is on him, that he has to be perfect, and that he is never worthy. So Sam not saving him in the same situation? The worst betrayal by his family – and we know how much family means to Dean – and yet the ultimate affirmation that Dean is a piece of shit who isn’t worth saving. While that’s not what Sam was saying, that’s what Dean heard. Dean has always believed he’s lesser, so why *would* Sammy want to save him, no matter the costs?
Needless to say, I hate that the brothers are so torn apart, and yet I’m loving the angst and emotions it’s evoking in me.
I think the thing that’s hit me the most about Sam and Dean is how this all harkens back to the “mother-ish” role Dean has always had in Sam’s life. He replaced their mother as a young child by nurturing and caring for him, by saving him, and I think Dean feels about Sam the way I feel about my children; protective and willing to do anything to keep them from being hurt. And what do boys do to their mothers as they grow up? They separate from them, they put them in a new place in their lives. The little boy who cuddles with you at 4 only tolerates a hair ruffle at 11 and by 14 won’t acknowledge you in public. And then he leaves you for another woman (or man) and suddenly you’re not the most important person in his life. I’ve seen so many mom’s go through this, including my own mom, who’s relationship with her sons has been damaged forever by her inability to accept a new (reduced) role in their lives. Sam’s feelings for Dean strike me as not dissimilar to the boy who has to physically and emotionally detach from his mother in order to be a complete person in his own right.
So as I watch the scenes between Sam and Dean, my heart breaks even more as I think about Dean holding Sammy in his arms and promising to take care of him. He’s always going to do it. And Sam isn’t going to thank him for it – whether he should or shouldn’t be grateful. And he’s going to lash out in an attempt to be free of that smothering overprotectiveness. And it’s all devastating – but entertaining – to watch.
I have been beyond frustrated by Dean’s inability to apologize, but last night I think I realized why. My husband always says not to apologize unless you aren’t going to keep repeating the behavior, because otherwise you’re not sorry for the behavior, you’re just sorry you got caught or called on it. Dean isn’t sorry, he will never be sorry. And he should be, but the consequences, that Sam is still alive even if he and Dean are never the same again, that’s something Dean can’t regret and won’t promise not to do again.
But doing the wrong things for the right reasons never gets anyone anywhere on this show, and I thought Cas’ scenes yesterday showed that perfectly. Even when it’s hard, you do the hard thing if it’s the right thing.
So I’m loving the season, loving the scenes that are wrenching out my heart, loving the acting. Thank god there’s a 10th season on tap!
Man, why do I think I love the fluffy, happy kind of stories, when what really keeps me up at night, makes me think, and fascinates me are those stories that tear my heart out? Supernatural is just proving this to me once again.
Sam, man, he’s so mad he’s practically quivering, and yet he’s also feeling guilty, because he knows what he means to Dean, and he knows how Dean took what he said to him at the end of the last episode. But I don’t buy that Sam wouldn’t save Dean no matter what. He’s done it before, and if there’s one thing we’ve learned from SPN, it’s that character growth is often short-lived and mistakes are always repeated. So I watch Sam struggle with his pain and his anger and his guilt and just love/hate it.
And Dean, man, Dean is breaking my heart and pissing me off. I know Dean wallows in self-hatred and guilt, but this is epic levels of wallowing. I couldn’t hear exactly what Kevin said when he was first coming through in the kitchen, but it was along the lines of, I die and I’m stuck listening to Dean angst all over the place? If Dean says “Kevin’s death is on me” one more time… And yet, that’s exactly Dean; he thinks it is on him, that he has to be perfect, and that he is never worthy. So Sam not saving him in the same situation? The worst betrayal by his family – and we know how much family means to Dean – and yet the ultimate affirmation that Dean is a piece of shit who isn’t worth saving. While that’s not what Sam was saying, that’s what Dean heard. Dean has always believed he’s lesser, so why *would* Sammy want to save him, no matter the costs?
Needless to say, I hate that the brothers are so torn apart, and yet I’m loving the angst and emotions it’s evoking in me.
I think the thing that’s hit me the most about Sam and Dean is how this all harkens back to the “mother-ish” role Dean has always had in Sam’s life. He replaced their mother as a young child by nurturing and caring for him, by saving him, and I think Dean feels about Sam the way I feel about my children; protective and willing to do anything to keep them from being hurt. And what do boys do to their mothers as they grow up? They separate from them, they put them in a new place in their lives. The little boy who cuddles with you at 4 only tolerates a hair ruffle at 11 and by 14 won’t acknowledge you in public. And then he leaves you for another woman (or man) and suddenly you’re not the most important person in his life. I’ve seen so many mom’s go through this, including my own mom, who’s relationship with her sons has been damaged forever by her inability to accept a new (reduced) role in their lives. Sam’s feelings for Dean strike me as not dissimilar to the boy who has to physically and emotionally detach from his mother in order to be a complete person in his own right.
So as I watch the scenes between Sam and Dean, my heart breaks even more as I think about Dean holding Sammy in his arms and promising to take care of him. He’s always going to do it. And Sam isn’t going to thank him for it – whether he should or shouldn’t be grateful. And he’s going to lash out in an attempt to be free of that smothering overprotectiveness. And it’s all devastating – but entertaining – to watch.
I have been beyond frustrated by Dean’s inability to apologize, but last night I think I realized why. My husband always says not to apologize unless you aren’t going to keep repeating the behavior, because otherwise you’re not sorry for the behavior, you’re just sorry you got caught or called on it. Dean isn’t sorry, he will never be sorry. And he should be, but the consequences, that Sam is still alive even if he and Dean are never the same again, that’s something Dean can’t regret and won’t promise not to do again.
But doing the wrong things for the right reasons never gets anyone anywhere on this show, and I thought Cas’ scenes yesterday showed that perfectly. Even when it’s hard, you do the hard thing if it’s the right thing.
So I’m loving the season, loving the scenes that are wrenching out my heart, loving the acting. Thank god there’s a 10th season on tap!
[quote name=”alice”]Wait a second, this just popped into my head.
So, if Sam had died in the season premiere, Death or whatever reaper it was would have delivered him to the veil? So reapers are still doing their job, but they’re stuffing souls there instead because Heaven is closed for business?
I really, really, hope Sam and Dean realize that it would have been a huge mistake to close the gates of Hell. Some souls deserve to go there.[/quote]
Yep. All of the bad/evil souls would be stuck in the same place as the good souls. And if Dean had not saved him, then Sam would be one of those souls in the veil as well. Perhaps stuck haunting the hospital.
[quote]Wait a second, this just popped into my head.
So, if Sam had died in the season premiere, Death or whatever reaper it was would have delivered him to the veil? So reapers are still doing their job, but they’re stuffing souls there instead because Heaven is closed for business?
I really, really, hope Sam and Dean realize that it would have been a huge mistake to close the gates of Hell. Some souls deserve to go there.[/quote]
Yep. All of the bad/evil souls would be stuck in the same place as the good souls. And if Dean had not saved him, then Sam would be one of those souls in the veil as well. Perhaps stuck haunting the hospital.
i don’t agree that sam has lost any perspective as to what he is fighting for. sam is so conflicted right now. sam loves dean, looks up to him, would die for him, he loves him enough to abide dean’s wishes no matter how much pain it causes sam. he loves dean enough to let him go as dean so desired. sam didn’t forget that his brother raised him or sacrificed for him either. he’s well aware and he’s told dean as much on more than one occasion. over the years, sam has taken every hit dean gave him, both verbal and physical. he’s hurt when dean hurt. he’s taken dean’s punishments and yet as never truly dished out any of his own. sam has always forgiven dean..of everything. do you(general you not a specific you) think it’s easy for sam to stand his ground right now? that it doesn’t hurt him? you know how hard it is to know your alive because of your brother, but how he saved you goes against every fiber of your being. that he saved you but you didn’t really need to be saved. you were saved by manipulation/deceit. you were lied to. your basic right as a human was taken from you..but it was done out of love. how do you reconcile this? sam has so many feelings right now his head must be spinning like a top.
what dean did broke the one thing that has always been most sacred to sam. trust. dean’s trust in sam is everything to him. and every action dean took only showed sam that dean does not trust him.
sam is questioning dean’s motivations because at the church, sam thought dean put his trust in him over everyone else. he came first. the words he always wanted/needed to hear, so of course sam stops the trials for dean. he trusts in him completely.
i believe in sam’s eyes, the method in which dean saved sam negated those words at the church. for dean, it was never about trust. he thought sam was thinking that he loved benny and cas more than him. that sam came last which was never and will never be the case. so dean’s actions make perfect sense to him.
therein lies the problem. once again the boy’s inability to understand where the other is coming from.
what sam is doing now is so very vital to their relationship. this is the first time that sam didn’t just forgive and forget. it’s been longer than the 10 days he was upset about amy. he’s standing his ground. in sharp teeth he indicated to dean that if they were going to be brothers they had to work at it. well this is sam working at it. for sam, it’s not ok to save someone any way you deem fit regardless of what the person you’re saving feels. it’s not ok to see innocents as collateral damage. dean has kept sam from saving him in the past because it went against his moral standards. why is ok for dean to go against sam’s?
dean’s love for sam is sometimes dangerous. the things he’s willing to do, and his willingness to do it again, regardless of the consequences. that’s not a very healthy love. if a shrink ever got dean on his couch, i think he/she would agree.
i don’t agree that sam has lost any perspective as to what he is fighting for. sam is so conflicted right now. sam loves dean, looks up to him, would die for him, he loves him enough to abide dean’s wishes no matter how much pain it causes sam. he loves dean enough to let him go as dean so desired. sam didn’t forget that his brother raised him or sacrificed for him either. he’s well aware and he’s told dean as much on more than one occasion. over the years, sam has taken every hit dean gave him, both verbal and physical. he’s hurt when dean hurt. he’s taken dean’s punishments and yet as never truly dished out any of his own. sam has always forgiven dean..of everything. do you(general you not a specific you) think it’s easy for sam to stand his ground right now? that it doesn’t hurt him? you know how hard it is to know your alive because of your brother, but how he saved you goes against every fiber of your being. that he saved you but you didn’t really need to be saved. you were saved by manipulation/deceit. you were lied to. your basic right as a human was taken from you..but it was done out of love. how do you reconcile this? sam has so many feelings right now his head must be spinning like a top.
what dean did broke the one thing that has always been most sacred to sam. trust. dean’s trust in sam is everything to him. and every action dean took only showed sam that dean does not trust him.
sam is questioning dean’s motivations because at the church, sam thought dean put his trust in him over everyone else. he came first. the words he always wanted/needed to hear, so of course sam stops the trials for dean. he trusts in him completely.
i believe in sam’s eyes, the method in which dean saved sam negated those words at the church. for dean, it was never about trust. he thought sam was thinking that he loved benny and cas more than him. that sam came last which was never and will never be the case. so dean’s actions make perfect sense to him.
therein lies the problem. once again the boy’s inability to understand where the other is coming from.
what sam is doing now is so very vital to their relationship. this is the first time that sam didn’t just forgive and forget. it’s been longer than the 10 days he was upset about amy. he’s standing his ground. in sharp teeth he indicated to dean that if they were going to be brothers they had to work at it. well this is sam working at it. for sam, it’s not ok to save someone any way you deem fit regardless of what the person you’re saving feels. it’s not ok to see innocents as collateral damage. dean has kept sam from saving him in the past because it went against his moral standards. why is ok for dean to go against sam’s?
dean’s love for sam is sometimes dangerous. the things he’s willing to do, and his willingness to do it again, regardless of the consequences. that’s not a very healthy love. if a shrink ever got dean on his couch, i think he/she would agree.
It frustrates me to see so many fans on firmly Team Dean or Team Sam. Because I do not think either brother is 100% wrong. I also don’t think either brother is 100% right.
Yes, Dean violated Sam by allowing an angel to possess him. Dean should definitely not have done that. However, Sam is still alive because of Dean. So how mad can I really be at Dean. I believe that Dean did what he did out of love (I don’t think Dean saved Sam for purely selfish reasons at all) & I can’t hold that against him too much. Because as I’m sure Dean would agree with, an alive & pissed Sam is better than no Sam at all.
I’m not mad at Dean, but I am mad at the writers for making Dean make the decision he did. It was a crappy thing to do to BOTH Sam & Dean and I don’t see how that decision is benefiting either brother from a character standpoint. In fact, all it is doing is portraying both brothers in a less than pleasant light.
I think Sam has every right in the world to be pissed at Dean. And he has every right to let Dean know how not-OK Dean’s actions were. I just wish we had some more insight in Sam’s head so we could see what was going on with him – see how deeply what Dean did affected him – see how hurt he is. We need more than just the words Sam says to Dean. Because right now, Dean is coming across as the more sympathetic one. And that is in no way way fair to Sam who is really the victim here.
I think both brothers, but Sam especially, need to dig deep & find some self-worth. Sam not seeing a upside to him being alive is a serious problem. He did the trials in the first place as he wanted to live – he didn’t see them as the suicidal mission Dean did.
Sam & Dean fighting the good fight together is a REALLY good thing for the world & the people in it.
Even just looking at last night episode, the brothers saved Mama Tran. Had Kevin not died, it is possible that Mama Tran would have remained in that cage until she died. Kevin’s death prompted her being saved.
No matter what the brothers do or don’t do people will always get hurt or die. It is the nature of their world.
Sam & Dean are not perfect, but like Bobby so eloquently stated, “they grew up heroes.” While there may be collateral damage along the way & it hurts, the boys do FAR more good than bad & they save far more people than they hurt.
We need to get back to that.
It frustrates me to see so many fans on firmly Team Dean or Team Sam. Because I do not think either brother is 100% wrong. I also don’t think either brother is 100% right.
Yes, Dean violated Sam by allowing an angel to possess him. Dean should definitely not have done that. However, Sam is still alive because of Dean. So how mad can I really be at Dean. I believe that Dean did what he did out of love (I don’t think Dean saved Sam for purely selfish reasons at all) & I can’t hold that against him too much. Because as I’m sure Dean would agree with, an alive & pissed Sam is better than no Sam at all.
I’m not mad at Dean, but I am mad at the writers for making Dean make the decision he did. It was a crappy thing to do to BOTH Sam & Dean and I don’t see how that decision is benefiting either brother from a character standpoint. In fact, all it is doing is portraying both brothers in a less than pleasant light.
I think Sam has every right in the world to be pissed at Dean. And he has every right to let Dean know how not-OK Dean’s actions were. I just wish we had some more insight in Sam’s head so we could see what was going on with him – see how deeply what Dean did affected him – see how hurt he is. We need more than just the words Sam says to Dean. Because right now, Dean is coming across as the more sympathetic one. And that is in no way way fair to Sam who is really the victim here.
I think both brothers, but Sam especially, need to dig deep & find some self-worth. Sam not seeing a upside to him being alive is a serious problem. He did the trials in the first place as he wanted to live – he didn’t see them as the suicidal mission Dean did.
Sam & Dean fighting the good fight together is a REALLY good thing for the world & the people in it.
Even just looking at last night episode, the brothers saved Mama Tran. Had Kevin not died, it is possible that Mama Tran would have remained in that cage until she died. Kevin’s death prompted her being saved.
No matter what the brothers do or don’t do people will always get hurt or die. It is the nature of their world.
Sam & Dean are not perfect, but like Bobby so eloquently stated, “they grew up heroes.” While there may be collateral damage along the way & it hurts, the boys do FAR more good than bad & they save far more people than they hurt.
We need to get back to that.
[quote name=”JJ”]It frustrates me to see so many fans on firmly Team Dean or Team Sam. Because I do not think either brother is 100% wrong. I also don’t think either brother is 100% right.
Yes, Dean violated Sam by allowing an angel to possess him. Dean should definitely not have done that. However, Sam is still alive because of Dean. So how mad can I really be at Dean. I believe that Dean did what he did out of love (I don’t think Dean saved Sam for purely selfish reasons at all) & I can’t hold that against him too much. Because as I’m sure Dean would agree with, an alive & pissed Sam is better than no Sam at all.
I’m not mad at Dean, but I am mad at the writers for making Dean make the decision he did. It was a crappy thing to do to BOTH Sam & Dean and I don’t see how that decision is benefiting either brother from a character standpoint. In fact, all it is doing is portraying both brothers in a less than pleasant light.
I think Sam has every right in the world to be pissed at Dean. And he has every right to let Dean know how not-OK Dean’s actions were. I just wish we had some more insight in Sam’s head so we could see what was going on with him – see how deeply what Dean did affected him – see how hurt he is. We need more than just the words Sam says to Dean. Because right now, Dean is coming across as the more sympathetic one. And that is in no way way fair to Sam who is really the victim here.
I think both brothers, but Sam especially, need to dig deep & find some self-worth. Sam not seeing a upside to him being alive is a serious problem. He did the trials in the first place as he wanted to live – he didn’t see them as the suicidal mission Dean did.
Sam & Dean fighting the good fight together is a REALLY good thing for the world & the people in it.
Even just looking at last night episode, the brothers saved Mama Tran. Had Kevin not died, it is possible that Mama Tran would have remained in that cage until she died. Kevin’s death prompted her being saved.
No matter what the brothers do or don’t do people will always get hurt or die. It is the nature of their world.
Sam & Dean are not perfect, but like Bobby so eloquently stated, “they grew up heroes.” While there may be collateral damage along the way & it hurts, the boys do FAR more good than bad & they save far more people than they hurt.
We need to get back to that.[/quote]
Very well said 🙂
[quote]It frustrates me to see so many fans on firmly Team Dean or Team Sam. Because I do not think either brother is 100% wrong. I also don’t think either brother is 100% right.
Yes, Dean violated Sam by allowing an angel to possess him. Dean should definitely not have done that. However, Sam is still alive because of Dean. So how mad can I really be at Dean. I believe that Dean did what he did out of love (I don’t think Dean saved Sam for purely selfish reasons at all) & I can’t hold that against him too much. Because as I’m sure Dean would agree with, an alive & pissed Sam is better than no Sam at all.
I’m not mad at Dean, but I am mad at the writers for making Dean make the decision he did. It was a crappy thing to do to BOTH Sam & Dean and I don’t see how that decision is benefiting either brother from a character standpoint. In fact, all it is doing is portraying both brothers in a less than pleasant light.
I think Sam has every right in the world to be pissed at Dean. And he has every right to let Dean know how not-OK Dean’s actions were. I just wish we had some more insight in Sam’s head so we could see what was going on with him – see how deeply what Dean did affected him – see how hurt he is. We need more than just the words Sam says to Dean. Because right now, Dean is coming across as the more sympathetic one. And that is in no way way fair to Sam who is really the victim here.
I think both brothers, but Sam especially, need to dig deep & find some self-worth. Sam not seeing a upside to him being alive is a serious problem. He did the trials in the first place as he wanted to live – he didn’t see them as the suicidal mission Dean did.
Sam & Dean fighting the good fight together is a REALLY good thing for the world & the people in it.
Even just looking at last night episode, the brothers saved Mama Tran. Had Kevin not died, it is possible that Mama Tran would have remained in that cage until she died. Kevin’s death prompted her being saved.
No matter what the brothers do or don’t do people will always get hurt or die. It is the nature of their world.
Sam & Dean are not perfect, but like Bobby so eloquently stated, “they grew up heroes.” While there may be collateral damage along the way & it hurts, the boys do FAR more good than bad & they save far more people than they hurt.
We need to get back to that.[/quote]
Very well said 🙂
sam is upset right now. i think he’s moving onto the anger portion of the process. but he’s not just angry at dean. he’s frustrated with him and scared for him as well. and he loves him. when dean was calling his name, sam came running out of his room. he was ready to kill whoever drugged dean in the purge. he’s obviously struggling with his stand right now on them being partners but have to work at being brothers…part of being brothers is looking out for ea. other and that is something they will never stop doing angry or not. the part that dean has to work on is trusting part. the not going to extreme measures part. trusting sam enough to not only let him make his own decisions but trusting sam enough to open up to him and talk about why it is that he goes to extremes in order to save him.
i was glad when kevin released them from their guilt about his death. but i thought his comment about fighting being stupid was more harmful than helpful.
for anyone else other than sam and dean winchester, that statement would’ve made sense. but given that kevin has no idea of the boys’s history, telling them to just let it go…sweep it under the rug…is the worst advice that the winchesters could be told, especially dean winchester. i’m glad that sam walked off when he did. i agree with tim that the most likely convo would be dean telling sam that even kevin thinks we should let it go…and given sam’s tendency to always forgive, that was very likely to have happened. and back into the same constant routine they would’ve fallen into. no this time sam isn’t relenting. he’s fighting. he’s going to get through to his brother one way or another. trust me it’s not easy for him as indicated by him hesitating before he went in his room. it would’ve been quite easy for sam to just give in and go back to the dysfunctional relationship these boys have right now. i think what sam is doing is a testament to his strength of character. it’s not easy going up against dean winchester and it certainly isn’t easy to try to get that winchester to change…kudos to sam for taking that mission on. i have every hope he succeeds for both their sakes. i for one am ready to watch sam and dean relate as loving brothers who finally “get” where the other is coming from. i’m so done with the boys always misunderstanding ea. other and thinking the worst about themselves.
it’s time to deal with the crap…i’ve said it before..i just want to see a little less dys in their function.
in case it’s not clear, i’m glad dean did what he did. i too would rather have a live pissed sam than a dead one. but it was wrong. dean needs to own up to that. i’ve also stated that sam loves his brother and he’s conflicted. sam was saved but it was through trickery and deceit and because of it kevin is dead by his own hand. it’s not so cut and dried. not for sam and dean and not for the fans who feel for them. but what sam is doing now, is attempting to change . i think that’s the point of it all anyway. i’ve said it before that i’m excited where carver is taking this. i still feel carver is trying to change the dysfunctional dynamic between the boys and make it a more healthier, more equal, stronger. loving brotherly bond. this is the way to get there and i’m loving every minute of it.
hell i want more laughter in s10…i do, i want more smiles from sam and dean. i want teasing, drinking, kicking ass, monsters, creepfests, crowley and of course there will be conflict, but just none that stems from old issues…. 😉 🙂
sam is upset right now. i think he’s moving onto the anger portion of the process. but he’s not just angry at dean. he’s frustrated with him and scared for him as well. and he loves him. when dean was calling his name, sam came running out of his room. he was ready to kill whoever drugged dean in the purge. he’s obviously struggling with his stand right now on them being partners but have to work at being brothers…part of being brothers is looking out for ea. other and that is something they will never stop doing angry or not. the part that dean has to work on is trusting part. the not going to extreme measures part. trusting sam enough to not only let him make his own decisions but trusting sam enough to open up to him and talk about why it is that he goes to extremes in order to save him.
i was glad when kevin released them from their guilt about his death. but i thought his comment about fighting being stupid was more harmful than helpful.
for anyone else other than sam and dean winchester, that statement would’ve made sense. but given that kevin has no idea of the boys’s history, telling them to just let it go…sweep it under the rug…is the worst advice that the winchesters could be told, especially dean winchester. i’m glad that sam walked off when he did. i agree with tim that the most likely convo would be dean telling sam that even kevin thinks we should let it go…and given sam’s tendency to always forgive, that was very likely to have happened. and back into the same constant routine they would’ve fallen into. no this time sam isn’t relenting. he’s fighting. he’s going to get through to his brother one way or another. trust me it’s not easy for him as indicated by him hesitating before he went in his room. it would’ve been quite easy for sam to just give in and go back to the dysfunctional relationship these boys have right now. i think what sam is doing is a testament to his strength of character. it’s not easy going up against dean winchester and it certainly isn’t easy to try to get that winchester to change…kudos to sam for taking that mission on. i have every hope he succeeds for both their sakes. i for one am ready to watch sam and dean relate as loving brothers who finally “get” where the other is coming from. i’m so done with the boys always misunderstanding ea. other and thinking the worst about themselves.
it’s time to deal with the crap…i’ve said it before..i just want to see a little less dys in their function.
in case it’s not clear, i’m glad dean did what he did. i too would rather have a live pissed sam than a dead one. but it was wrong. dean needs to own up to that. i’ve also stated that sam loves his brother and he’s conflicted. sam was saved but it was through trickery and deceit and because of it kevin is dead by his own hand. it’s not so cut and dried. not for sam and dean and not for the fans who feel for them. but what sam is doing now, is attempting to change . i think that’s the point of it all anyway. i’ve said it before that i’m excited where carver is taking this. i still feel carver is trying to change the dysfunctional dynamic between the boys and make it a more healthier, more equal, stronger. loving brotherly bond. this is the way to get there and i’m loving every minute of it.
hell i want more laughter in s10…i do, i want more smiles from sam and dean. i want teasing, drinking, kicking ass, monsters, creepfests, crowley and of course there will be conflict, but just none that stems from old issues…. 😉 🙂
[quote name=”nappi815″]sam is upset right now. i think he’s moving onto the anger portion of the process. but he’s not just angry at dean. he’s frustrated with him and scared for him as well. and he loves him. when dean was calling his name, sam came running out of his room. he was ready to kill whoever drugged dean in the purge. he’s obviously struggling with his stand right now on them being partners but have to work at being brothers…part of being brothers is looking out for ea. other and that is something they will never stop doing angry or not. the part that dean has to work on is trusting part. the not going to extreme measures part. trusting sam enough to not only let him make his own decisions but trusting sam enough to open up to him and talk about why it is that he goes to extremes in order to save him.
i was glad when kevin released them from their guilt about his death. but i thought his comment about fighting being stupid was more harmful than helpful.
for anyone else other than sam and dean winchester, that statement would’ve made sense. but given that kevin has no idea of the boys’s history, telling them to just let it go…sweep it under the rug…is the worst advice that the winchesters could be told, especially dean winchester. i’m glad that sam walked off when he did. i agree with tim that the most likely convo would be dean telling sam that even kevin thinks we should let it go…and given sam’s tendency to always forgive, that was very likely to have happened. and back into the same constant routine they would’ve fallen into. no this time sam isn’t relenting. he’s fighting. he’s going to get through to his brother one way or another. trust me it’s not easy for him as indicated by him hesitating before he went in his room. it would’ve been quite easy for sam to just give in and go back to the dysfunctional relationship these boys have right now. i think what sam is doing is a testament to his strength of character. it’s not easy going up against dean winchester and it certainly isn’t easy to try to get that winchester to change…kudos to sam for taking that mission on. i have every hope he succeeds for both their sakes. i for one am ready to watch sam and dean relate as loving brothers who finally “get” where the other is coming from. i’m so done with the boys always misunderstanding ea. other and thinking the worst about themselves.
it’s time to deal with the crap…i’ve said it before..i just want to see a little less dys in their function.
in case it’s not clear, i’m glad dean did what he did. i too would rather have a live pissed sam than a dead one. but it was wrong. dean needs to own up to that. i’ve also stated that sam loves his brother and he’s conflicted. sam was saved but it was through trickery and deceit and because of it kevin is dead by his own hand. it’s not so cut and dried. not for sam and dean and not for the fans who feel for them. but what sam is doing now, is attempting to change . i think that’s the point of it all anyway. i’ve said it before that i’m excited where carver is taking this. i still feel carver is trying to change the dysfunctional dynamic between the boys and make it a more healthier, more equal, stronger. loving brotherly bond. this is the way to get there and i’m loving every minute of it.
hell i want more laughter in s10…i do, i want more smiles from sam and dean. i want teasing, drinking, kicking ass, monsters, creepfests, crowley and of course there will be conflict, but just none that stems from old issues…. 😉 :-)[/quote]
See to me that is speculation on what Dean might say; we don’t know what the silence and the partnership is doing to Dean. Like I said and pointed out the room Dean is in is not his original room. He is staying in one of the other ones guessing farther from Sam to give him space. And also no dead mans robe has dean been wearing. So this is effecting them both and we can not put words in Deans mouth we don’t know how the convo would have gone Sam walked away from it so he wouldn’t have to listen to what Dean had to say. He wasn’t ready so until Sam is ready Dean has to wait. Because Sam is not going to let Dean have the first so say from what I can tell. Apparently any convo they are going to have on where they are at right now in partnership brothers is all on Sam and Dean will wait patiently. Dean does take all the burden on him. We know that he will shoulder all the blame of what happend. Will he change we have to wait and find out but we can’t keep saying just from first convo what he will say again. Speculation yea maybe he will not give up on saving sam who knows but like I said we can’t speculate that Dean will say samething he may or may not but until the convo comes we just have to wait and see. But Dean is giving space and doing as sam wanted no brotherly touchey stuff on the job. they both be professionals.
[quote]sam is upset right now. i think he’s moving onto the anger portion of the process. but he’s not just angry at dean. he’s frustrated with him and scared for him as well. and he loves him. when dean was calling his name, sam came running out of his room. he was ready to kill whoever drugged dean in the purge. he’s obviously struggling with his stand right now on them being partners but have to work at being brothers…part of being brothers is looking out for ea. other and that is something they will never stop doing angry or not. the part that dean has to work on is trusting part. the not going to extreme measures part. trusting sam enough to not only let him make his own decisions but trusting sam enough to open up to him and talk about why it is that he goes to extremes in order to save him.
i was glad when kevin released them from their guilt about his death. but i thought his comment about fighting being stupid was more harmful than helpful.
for anyone else other than sam and dean winchester, that statement would’ve made sense. but given that kevin has no idea of the boys’s history, telling them to just let it go…sweep it under the rug…is the worst advice that the winchesters could be told, especially dean winchester. i’m glad that sam walked off when he did. i agree with tim that the most likely convo would be dean telling sam that even kevin thinks we should let it go…and given sam’s tendency to always forgive, that was very likely to have happened. and back into the same constant routine they would’ve fallen into. no this time sam isn’t relenting. he’s fighting. he’s going to get through to his brother one way or another. trust me it’s not easy for him as indicated by him hesitating before he went in his room. it would’ve been quite easy for sam to just give in and go back to the dysfunctional relationship these boys have right now. i think what sam is doing is a testament to his strength of character. it’s not easy going up against dean winchester and it certainly isn’t easy to try to get that winchester to change…kudos to sam for taking that mission on. i have every hope he succeeds for both their sakes. i for one am ready to watch sam and dean relate as loving brothers who finally “get” where the other is coming from. i’m so done with the boys always misunderstanding ea. other and thinking the worst about themselves.
it’s time to deal with the crap…i’ve said it before..i just want to see a little less dys in their function.
in case it’s not clear, i’m glad dean did what he did. i too would rather have a live pissed sam than a dead one. but it was wrong. dean needs to own up to that. i’ve also stated that sam loves his brother and he’s conflicted. sam was saved but it was through trickery and deceit and because of it kevin is dead by his own hand. it’s not so cut and dried. not for sam and dean and not for the fans who feel for them. but what sam is doing now, is attempting to change . i think that’s the point of it all anyway. i’ve said it before that i’m excited where carver is taking this. i still feel carver is trying to change the dysfunctional dynamic between the boys and make it a more healthier, more equal, stronger. loving brotherly bond. this is the way to get there and i’m loving every minute of it.
hell i want more laughter in s10…i do, i want more smiles from sam and dean. i want teasing, drinking, kicking ass, monsters, creepfests, crowley and of course there will be conflict, but just none that stems from old issues…. 😉 :-)[/quote]
See to me that is speculation on what Dean might say; we don’t know what the silence and the partnership is doing to Dean. Like I said and pointed out the room Dean is in is not his original room. He is staying in one of the other ones guessing farther from Sam to give him space. And also no dead mans robe has dean been wearing. So this is effecting them both and we can not put words in Deans mouth we don’t know how the convo would have gone Sam walked away from it so he wouldn’t have to listen to what Dean had to say. He wasn’t ready so until Sam is ready Dean has to wait. Because Sam is not going to let Dean have the first so say from what I can tell. Apparently any convo they are going to have on where they are at right now in partnership brothers is all on Sam and Dean will wait patiently. Dean does take all the burden on him. We know that he will shoulder all the blame of what happend. Will he change we have to wait and find out but we can’t keep saying just from first convo what he will say again. Speculation yea maybe he will not give up on saving sam who knows but like I said we can’t speculate that Dean will say samething he may or may not but until the convo comes we just have to wait and see. But Dean is giving space and doing as sam wanted no brotherly touchey stuff on the job. they both be professionals.
Sam may have said just business unfortunately for Sam his actions betray him don’t they. Sam bolted out of his room yelling for Dean, frantically searching for him and greatly relieved to find him ok. Dean looked pretty relieved to see Sam when he rescued him from the demon as well. Definite cracks in the armor. These guys are never going to give up on each other.
Sam may have said just business unfortunately for Sam his actions betray him don’t they. Sam bolted out of his room yelling for Dean, frantically searching for him and greatly relieved to find him ok. Dean looked pretty relieved to see Sam when he rescued him from the demon as well. Definite cracks in the armor. These guys are never going to give up on each other.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Sam may have said just business unfortunately for Sam his actions betray him don’t they. Sam bolted out of his room yelling for Dean, frantically searching for him and greatly relieved to find him ok. Dean looked pretty relieved to see Sam when he rescued him from the demon as well. Definite cracks in the armor. These guys are never going to give up on each other.[/quote]
true… that was one angry moose in the last episode when he found out Dean had been drugged. Just don’t understand why people are pissed at Sam for being angry; he’s an introvert and deals with this crap and works thru it differently than Dean does. The show is told from Dean’s POV and he’s got the angst-beard and drinking thing going on, Sam is not Dean and vice versa.
[quote]Sam may have said just business unfortunately for Sam his actions betray him don’t they. Sam bolted out of his room yelling for Dean, frantically searching for him and greatly relieved to find him ok. Dean looked pretty relieved to see Sam when he rescued him from the demon as well. Definite cracks in the armor. These guys are never going to give up on each other.[/quote]
true… that was one angry moose in the last episode when he found out Dean had been drugged. Just don’t understand why people are pissed at Sam for being angry; he’s an introvert and deals with this crap and works thru it differently than Dean does. The show is told from Dean’s POV and he’s got the angst-beard and drinking thing going on, Sam is not Dean and vice versa.
@59 Nappi: Thanx for saying this. I agree. I was very fustrated to see Sam walk away from Dean at the end and to his credit he did hesitate before going into his room. I do get the sense that the more time he spends with Dean the more he wants to get waffly in his conviction. The harder it is to stick to it .
I do think this being close to each other- but not too close- is hard on both of them. You can see them yearning to renew their old relationship because it’s just so comfortable.
It must be very dificult for both of them. They’ve lived in each other’s back pockets for thirty years and changing the dynamic is going to take a will of steel and some great patience on Sam’s part because the default is for him to just forgive and move on as if nothing happened..
Also the reason Sam walked away is he probably is still processing his feelings about Kevin’s death. The images of him killing Kevin are right there and he’s is still dealing with the death itself and not just what led up to it and it’s fallout.I wish the fans who are are searching for any and every reason to hate Sam would just stop feeling their fee-fees for just a few seconds and just listen and understand where he’s coming from. The way Sam remembers it is -He killed the boy. He probably still has the feel and scent of that in his memory and if they could quiet their outrage on Dean’s behalf for just a few minutes they might be able to appreciate his point of view. (I also understand that some fans are determined to hate him no matter what he does or says- I’ve pretty nmuch given up on those.)
I see Dean’s point f view and understand why and I dont even regret what he did, but the lying and the gaslighting that went on for months- that’s a lot harder to forgive,imo.
@59 Nappi: Thanx for saying this. I agree. I was very fustrated to see Sam walk away from Dean at the end and to his credit he did hesitate before going into his room. I do get the sense that the more time he spends with Dean the more he wants to get waffly in his conviction. The harder it is to stick to it .
I do think this being close to each other- but not too close- is hard on both of them. You can see them yearning to renew their old relationship because it’s just so comfortable.
It must be very dificult for both of them. They’ve lived in each other’s back pockets for thirty years and changing the dynamic is going to take a will of steel and some great patience on Sam’s part because the default is for him to just forgive and move on as if nothing happened..
Also the reason Sam walked away is he probably is still processing his feelings about Kevin’s death. The images of him killing Kevin are right there and he’s is still dealing with the death itself and not just what led up to it and it’s fallout.I wish the fans who are are searching for any and every reason to hate Sam would just stop feeling their fee-fees for just a few seconds and just listen and understand where he’s coming from. The way Sam remembers it is -He killed the boy. He probably still has the feel and scent of that in his memory and if they could quiet their outrage on Dean’s behalf for just a few minutes they might be able to appreciate his point of view. (I also understand that some fans are determined to hate him no matter what he does or says- I’ve pretty nmuch given up on those.)
I see Dean’s point f view and understand why and I dont even regret what he did, but the lying and the gaslighting that went on for months- that’s a lot harder to forgive,imo.
see to me that is speculation on what Dean might say; we don’t know what the silence and the partnership is doing to Dean. Like I said and pointed out the room Dean is in is not his original room. He is staying in one of the other ones guessing farther from Sam to give him space. And also no dead mans robe has dean been wearing. So this is effecting them both and we can not put words in Deans mouth we don’t know how the convo would have gone Sam walked away from it so he wouldn’t have to listen to what Dean had to say. He wasn’t ready so until Sam is ready Dean has to wait. Because Sam is not going to let Dean have the first so say from what I can tell. Apparently any convo they are going to have on where they are at right now in partnership brothers is all on Sam and Dean will wait patiently. Dean does take all the burden on him. We know that he will shoulder all the blame of what happend. Will he change we have to wait and find out but we can’t keep saying just from first convo what he will say again. Speculation yea maybe he will not give up on saving sam who knows but like I said we can’t speculate that Dean will say samething he may or may not but until the convo comes we just have to wait and see. But Dean is giving space and doing as sam wanted no brotherly touchey stuff on the job. they both be professionals.[/quote]
dean has a habit of shutting down. he doesn’t talk about things and that’s the problem. the only reason dean has ever talked to sam in the past is because sam kept needling him. whenever sam tries to talk to dean about dean, he shuts down. he changes the subject.
you seem to think it’s all on sam here to want to talk but the way i see it is that sam is the one who has actually gotten the ball rolling. now the ball is in dean’s court.
sam saying that if they want to be partners fine, but if they want to be brothers…indicating to dean that they had to work at being brothers, can’t just go back in the car, put a few w’s in their column and move on. that’s not fixing anything. that’s sweeping it under the rug. sam making that comment was to push dean into engaging him. but dean didn’t. instead of understanding where sam was coming from, he wallowed in hurt feelings and now he’s paying sam back by acting professional.
sam tried again in the purge when he told dean in the same circumstances roles reversed he would’t do the same thing. it ended of course, but sam was again trying to get through to his brother and have him respond.
dean didn’t instead in this eppy we get again, dean towing the professional line. kevin didn’t help matters any by telling them that the fighting was stupid given the fact that sam has been fighting to fix his relationship with his brother. the only way to do that is to chip away at dean til he finally does to him. sam was right to walk away from dean. he may have given in at that moment and the last thing sam should be doing is giving in. walking away most likely prevented that and it also and hopefully upset dean enough to get him closer to opening up and confronting sam….which is exactly what i believe sam is waiting for.
so i hope sam keeps doing what he’s doing…for all our sakes.
see to me that is speculation on what Dean might say; we don’t know what the silence and the partnership is doing to Dean. Like I said and pointed out the room Dean is in is not his original room. He is staying in one of the other ones guessing farther from Sam to give him space. And also no dead mans robe has dean been wearing. So this is effecting them both and we can not put words in Deans mouth we don’t know how the convo would have gone Sam walked away from it so he wouldn’t have to listen to what Dean had to say. He wasn’t ready so until Sam is ready Dean has to wait. Because Sam is not going to let Dean have the first so say from what I can tell. Apparently any convo they are going to have on where they are at right now in partnership brothers is all on Sam and Dean will wait patiently. Dean does take all the burden on him. We know that he will shoulder all the blame of what happend. Will he change we have to wait and find out but we can’t keep saying just from first convo what he will say again. Speculation yea maybe he will not give up on saving sam who knows but like I said we can’t speculate that Dean will say samething he may or may not but until the convo comes we just have to wait and see. But Dean is giving space and doing as sam wanted no brotherly touchey stuff on the job. they both be professionals.[/quote]
dean has a habit of shutting down. he doesn’t talk about things and that’s the problem. the only reason dean has ever talked to sam in the past is because sam kept needling him. whenever sam tries to talk to dean about dean, he shuts down. he changes the subject.
you seem to think it’s all on sam here to want to talk but the way i see it is that sam is the one who has actually gotten the ball rolling. now the ball is in dean’s court.
sam saying that if they want to be partners fine, but if they want to be brothers…indicating to dean that they had to work at being brothers, can’t just go back in the car, put a few w’s in their column and move on. that’s not fixing anything. that’s sweeping it under the rug. sam making that comment was to push dean into engaging him. but dean didn’t. instead of understanding where sam was coming from, he wallowed in hurt feelings and now he’s paying sam back by acting professional.
sam tried again in the purge when he told dean in the same circumstances roles reversed he would’t do the same thing. it ended of course, but sam was again trying to get through to his brother and have him respond.
dean didn’t instead in this eppy we get again, dean towing the professional line. kevin didn’t help matters any by telling them that the fighting was stupid given the fact that sam has been fighting to fix his relationship with his brother. the only way to do that is to chip away at dean til he finally does to him. sam was right to walk away from dean. he may have given in at that moment and the last thing sam should be doing is giving in. walking away most likely prevented that and it also and hopefully upset dean enough to get him closer to opening up and confronting sam….which is exactly what i believe sam is waiting for.
so i hope sam keeps doing what he’s doing…for all our sakes.
[quote name=”nappi815″]see to me that is speculation on what Dean might say; we don’t know what the silence and the partnership is doing to Dean. Like I said and pointed out the room Dean is in is not his original room. He is staying in one of the other ones guessing farther from Sam to give him space. And also no dead mans robe has dean been wearing. So this is effecting them both and we can not put words in Deans mouth we don’t know how the convo would have gone Sam walked away from it so he wouldn’t have to listen to what Dean had to say. He wasn’t ready so until Sam is ready Dean has to wait. Because Sam is not going to let Dean have the first so say from what I can tell. Apparently any convo they are going to have on where they are at right now in partnership brothers is all on Sam and Dean will wait patiently. Dean does take all the burden on him. We know that he will shoulder all the blame of what happend. Will he change we have to wait and find out but we can’t keep saying just from first convo what he will say again. Speculation yea maybe he will not give up on saving sam who knows but like I said we can’t speculate that Dean will say samething he may or may not but until the convo comes we just have to wait and see. But Dean is giving space and doing as sam wanted no brotherly touchey stuff on the job. they both be professionals.
dean has a habit of shutting down. he doesn’t talk about things and that’s the problem. the only reason dean has ever talked to sam in the past is because sam kept needling him. whenever sam tries to talk to dean about dean, he shuts down. he changes the subject.
you seem to think it’s all on sam here to want to talk but the way i see it is that sam is the one who has actually gotten the ball rolling. now the ball is in dean’s court.
sam saying that if they want to be partners fine, but if they want to be brothers…indicating to dean that they had to work at being brothers, can’t just go back in the car, put a few w’s in their column and move on. that’s not fixing anything. that’s sweeping it under the rug. sam making that comment was to push dean into engaging him. but dean didn’t. instead of understanding where sam was coming from, he wallowed in hurt feelings and now he’s paying sam back by acting professional.
sam tried again in the purge when he told dean in the same circumstances roles reversed he would’t do the same thing. it ended of course, but sam was again trying to get through to his brother and have him respond.
dean didn’t instead in this eppy we get again, dean towing the professional line. kevin didn’t help matters any by telling them that the fighting was stupid given the fact that sam has been fighting to fix his relationship with his brother. the only way to do that is to chip away at dean til he finally does to him. sam was right to walk away from dean. he may have given in at that moment and the last thing sam should be doing is giving in. walking away most likely prevented that and it also and hopefully upset dean enough to get him closer to opening up and confronting sam….which is exactly what i believe sam is waiting for.
so i hope sam keeps doing what he’s doing…for all our sakes.[/quote]
Lets talk about the Purge right after sam said he wouldn’t save Dean he walked away because end of eps but its like he just leaves they have to have longer conversations not just I wouldn’t save you Dean and then thats it leaving. to me it seems Sam seems to be running the show so when he wants to talk he will until then no discussing any of the matters at hand. Guessing we have to wait until he is good and ready to have it out. Because it won’t be pretty never is but they need to discuss it the longer its put on the back burner the harder it is going to be able to say stuff. And Sam has to listen to what Dean has to say likeing it or not if Dean has to listen to sam say he wishes he wasn’t alive he should have let him die and such then Sam has to listen to Dean no matter how much it hurts him to hear what his brother says. Only way the brothers will learn is if they listen to each other. And in Sharp Teeth Dean got out of the car to talk to SAm which again Sam called shots and got in car. But I think its when Sam is ready to talk him and Dean will talk otherwise guessing he won’t let Dean open up and if he doesn’t like what Dean has to say tough he will have to suck it up because Sam will say things Dean won’t want to hear but they grow from that. And only way they will be brothers if they are open and honest.
[quote]see to me that is speculation on what Dean might say; we don’t know what the silence and the partnership is doing to Dean. Like I said and pointed out the room Dean is in is not his original room. He is staying in one of the other ones guessing farther from Sam to give him space. And also no dead mans robe has dean been wearing. So this is effecting them both and we can not put words in Deans mouth we don’t know how the convo would have gone Sam walked away from it so he wouldn’t have to listen to what Dean had to say. He wasn’t ready so until Sam is ready Dean has to wait. Because Sam is not going to let Dean have the first so say from what I can tell. Apparently any convo they are going to have on where they are at right now in partnership brothers is all on Sam and Dean will wait patiently. Dean does take all the burden on him. We know that he will shoulder all the blame of what happend. Will he change we have to wait and find out but we can’t keep saying just from first convo what he will say again. Speculation yea maybe he will not give up on saving sam who knows but like I said we can’t speculate that Dean will say samething he may or may not but until the convo comes we just have to wait and see. But Dean is giving space and doing as sam wanted no brotherly touchey stuff on the job. they both be professionals.
dean has a habit of shutting down. he doesn’t talk about things and that’s the problem. the only reason dean has ever talked to sam in the past is because sam kept needling him. whenever sam tries to talk to dean about dean, he shuts down. he changes the subject.
you seem to think it’s all on sam here to want to talk but the way i see it is that sam is the one who has actually gotten the ball rolling. now the ball is in dean’s court.
sam saying that if they want to be partners fine, but if they want to be brothers…indicating to dean that they had to work at being brothers, can’t just go back in the car, put a few w’s in their column and move on. that’s not fixing anything. that’s sweeping it under the rug. sam making that comment was to push dean into engaging him. but dean didn’t. instead of understanding where sam was coming from, he wallowed in hurt feelings and now he’s paying sam back by acting professional.
sam tried again in the purge when he told dean in the same circumstances roles reversed he would’t do the same thing. it ended of course, but sam was again trying to get through to his brother and have him respond.
dean didn’t instead in this eppy we get again, dean towing the professional line. kevin didn’t help matters any by telling them that the fighting was stupid given the fact that sam has been fighting to fix his relationship with his brother. the only way to do that is to chip away at dean til he finally does to him. sam was right to walk away from dean. he may have given in at that moment and the last thing sam should be doing is giving in. walking away most likely prevented that and it also and hopefully upset dean enough to get him closer to opening up and confronting sam….which is exactly what i believe sam is waiting for.
so i hope sam keeps doing what he’s doing…for all our sakes.[/quote]
Lets talk about the Purge right after sam said he wouldn’t save Dean he walked away because end of eps but its like he just leaves they have to have longer conversations not just I wouldn’t save you Dean and then thats it leaving. to me it seems Sam seems to be running the show so when he wants to talk he will until then no discussing any of the matters at hand. Guessing we have to wait until he is good and ready to have it out. Because it won’t be pretty never is but they need to discuss it the longer its put on the back burner the harder it is going to be able to say stuff. And Sam has to listen to what Dean has to say likeing it or not if Dean has to listen to sam say he wishes he wasn’t alive he should have let him die and such then Sam has to listen to Dean no matter how much it hurts him to hear what his brother says. Only way the brothers will learn is if they listen to each other. And in Sharp Teeth Dean got out of the car to talk to SAm which again Sam called shots and got in car. But I think its when Sam is ready to talk him and Dean will talk otherwise guessing he won’t let Dean open up and if he doesn’t like what Dean has to say tough he will have to suck it up because Sam will say things Dean won’t want to hear but they grow from that. And only way they will be brothers if they are open and honest.
@62: Thanx for saying this. As a died in the wool introvert , I can attest that introverts absolutely do not display emotions and do process the world differently than extroverts.
For introverts, their emotions are private things not to be shared all over the place with anyone who wanders into orbit.
Dean’s emotions are almost always on display (he’s what I call a broadcaste,) and just like in real life, unless you directly ask an introvert what they are feeling, you will have no idea most of the time. You have to pay much closer attention to their actions to get what they might be thinking. That’s how I’ve been approaching Sam. People who don’t know any introverts or have little contact with them won’t understand or even see it.
@62: Thanx for saying this. As a died in the wool introvert , I can attest that introverts absolutely do not display emotions and do process the world differently than extroverts.
For introverts, their emotions are private things not to be shared all over the place with anyone who wanders into orbit.
Dean’s emotions are almost always on display (he’s what I call a broadcaste,) and just like in real life, unless you directly ask an introvert what they are feeling, you will have no idea most of the time. You have to pay much closer attention to their actions to get what they might be thinking. That’s how I’ve been approaching Sam. People who don’t know any introverts or have little contact with them won’t understand or even see it.
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”alice”]Wait a second, this just popped into my head.
So, if Sam had died in the season premiere, Death or whatever reaper it was would have delivered him to the veil? So reapers are still doing their job, but they’re stuffing souls there instead because Heaven is closed for business?
I really, really, hope Sam and Dean realize that it would have been a huge mistake to close the gates of Hell. Some souls deserve to go there.[/quote]
Yep. All of the bad/evil souls would be stuck in the same place as the good souls. And if Dean had not saved him, then Sam would be one of those souls in the veil as well. Perhaps stuck haunting the hospital.[/quote]
Sounds good, great way to absolve Dean even if he didn’t do it for that reason. I mean people are clearing Dean of Kevin’s death because he would have died anyway, but now are using this to absolve Dean because Sam would have remained a ghost. This all SOUNDS good, but in Slumber Party Charlie WENT TO HEAVEN. She described being in the memory of Christmas with her parents. She didn’t describe being caught in “the veil”, she described heaven. So when Charlie died heaven was still open for business. Sam would have died before Charlie came to the bunker, so he would have made it to heaven all on his own.
I may not be thrilled with the lack of attention to continuity, but in this case I’m good.
[quote][quote]Wait a second, this just popped into my head.
So, if Sam had died in the season premiere, Death or whatever reaper it was would have delivered him to the veil? So reapers are still doing their job, but they’re stuffing souls there instead because Heaven is closed for business?
I really, really, hope Sam and Dean realize that it would have been a huge mistake to close the gates of Hell. Some souls deserve to go there.[/quote]
Yep. All of the bad/evil souls would be stuck in the same place as the good souls. And if Dean had not saved him, then Sam would be one of those souls in the veil as well. Perhaps stuck haunting the hospital.[/quote]
Sounds good, great way to absolve Dean even if he didn’t do it for that reason. I mean people are clearing Dean of Kevin’s death because he would have died anyway, but now are using this to absolve Dean because Sam would have remained a ghost. This all SOUNDS good, but in Slumber Party Charlie WENT TO HEAVEN. She described being in the memory of Christmas with her parents. She didn’t describe being caught in “the veil”, she described heaven. So when Charlie died heaven was still open for business. Sam would have died before Charlie came to the bunker, so he would have made it to heaven all on his own.
I may not be thrilled with the lack of attention to continuity, but in this case I’m good.
“Captives” aka “How many times during one episode will I say ‘I love that kid!’?” Answer: 5.
[quote name=”nappi815″]I liked it. Glad to see Kevin and his mom. Feel like we will see them again. Interested in seeing Cas’ role in opening heaven. Glad Kevin released the boys of their guilt. Sam did say ok to Kevin when he asked the boys to promise to let it go…I think Sam was referring to letting go of his guilt. But he did hear Kevin when he said the fighting was stupid. I think Sam is starting to find it difficult to just be partners 🙂 …but I think Sam also realizes that they need to deal with what’s happened. Sam can’t just forgive and forget instantaneously. A trust was broken. And I don’t think Sam is ok with dean being willing to do it all again knowing the outcome. The only way to move on, to fix what’s been damaged, is to talk about it. If Sam cedes and just let’s bygones be bygones then Kevin will have died in vain. Dean will never change and the cycle will never end. He’s fighting to save his relationship with his brother. To do that he needs to fight him..sound contradictory, but fighting is when they open up. I hope next week they have Sam keep at it with Dean. I don’t want Sam letting up til Dean finally erupts. We’re getting closer…I don’t think we have to wait too much longer.[/quote]
All valid points! It does seem Sam wants to put it all behind them, but he isn’t getting through to Dean on why their trust is broken and it’s wearing him out. Then it was clear Dean was going to launch a sharing-and-caring session, but Sam had already turned away. “Dick move, sir.” (As I said on “In the defense of Sam” thread–I think THIS was his first foul play despite how long people have been Sam slamming.) Meanwhile, Dean is hurting from all the missed messages so he has two choices: really talk it out a la “Heaven and Hell” (the high road to more maturity) and his normal shouting-and-fighting mode. I’m hoping high road, but this [i]is[/i] Dean Winchester. I’m thinking the latter and when it happens the Mark will somehow ‘power up.’ This whole time he’s been so miserable it hasn’t made any effect…or is that just what Carver wants us to believe? If I’m right then I’m betting a) it’ll be up to Sam to save him and b) that will go a long way to mend their fences and defenses. Regardless, I’m ready for happy Winchesters and these two to be brothers again. Can I get a “Hell House?” The ‘Ghostfacers’ are on next. *fingers crossed*
“Captives” aka “How many times during one episode will I say ‘I love that kid!’?” Answer: 5.
[quote]I liked it. Glad to see Kevin and his mom. Feel like we will see them again. Interested in seeing Cas’ role in opening heaven. Glad Kevin released the boys of their guilt. Sam did say ok to Kevin when he asked the boys to promise to let it go…I think Sam was referring to letting go of his guilt. But he did hear Kevin when he said the fighting was stupid. I think Sam is starting to find it difficult to just be partners 🙂 …but I think Sam also realizes that they need to deal with what’s happened. Sam can’t just forgive and forget instantaneously. A trust was broken. And I don’t think Sam is ok with dean being willing to do it all again knowing the outcome. The only way to move on, to fix what’s been damaged, is to talk about it. If Sam cedes and just let’s bygones be bygones then Kevin will have died in vain. Dean will never change and the cycle will never end. He’s fighting to save his relationship with his brother. To do that he needs to fight him..sound contradictory, but fighting is when they open up. I hope next week they have Sam keep at it with Dean. I don’t want Sam letting up til Dean finally erupts. We’re getting closer…I don’t think we have to wait too much longer.[/quote]
All valid points! It does seem Sam wants to put it all behind them, but he isn’t getting through to Dean on why their trust is broken and it’s wearing him out. Then it was clear Dean was going to launch a sharing-and-caring session, but Sam had already turned away. “Dick move, sir.” (As I said on “In the defense of Sam” thread–I think THIS was his first foul play despite how long people have been Sam slamming.) Meanwhile, Dean is hurting from all the missed messages so he has two choices: really talk it out a la “Heaven and Hell” (the high road to more maturity) and his normal shouting-and-fighting mode. I’m hoping high road, but this [i]is[/i] Dean Winchester. I’m thinking the latter and when it happens the Mark will somehow ‘power up.’ This whole time he’s been so miserable it hasn’t made any effect…or is that just what Carver wants us to believe? If I’m right then I’m betting a) it’ll be up to Sam to save him and b) that will go a long way to mend their fences and defenses. Regardless, I’m ready for happy Winchesters and these two to be brothers again. Can I get a “Hell House?” The ‘Ghostfacers’ are on next. *fingers crossed*
[quote name=”JJ”] I just wish we had some more insight in Sam’s head so we could see what was going on with him – see how deeply what Dean did affected him – see how hurt he is. [/quote]
I agree with most of what you said. Based purely on what we’ve seen, Sam IS coming across as an angry little bitch. I understand why he’s angry, I really do. But the way he’s acting is NOT sympathetic unless we see what’s going in his head. We can guess and speculate, but they never actually told or showed us how the situation affected him emotionally.I’m pretty sure Jared said in an interview that Sam’s reaction was to go introverted and think the whole thing through. I think that sounds very in character for Sam, but it doesn’t translate well on-screen. I always feel like we’re playing connect the dots with Sam’s feelings. Like we’re being left cryptic clues so we can piece it together ourselves. It would be nice though if just this once we could get a solid, articulate explanation of Sam’s words rather than a jumbled mess that doesn’t add up.
Right now Dean seems like a little lost puppy who Sam has decided to kick every episode. Sam has said some harsh things. Things that seem too harsh for what Dean did. It’s like there’s a disconnect between the situation at hand and Sam’s reaction. Many fans don’t understand it, and it’s obvious Dean has no freaking clue. Like when Sam said he wouldn’t have saved Dean. I’m sure Sam has his reasons for this, but they mean absolutely nothing unless are expressed out loud. I love Sam, it’s just frustrating when the show won’t show us what’s going on with him.
[quote] I just wish we had some more insight in Sam’s head so we could see what was going on with him – see how deeply what Dean did affected him – see how hurt he is. [/quote]
I agree with most of what you said. Based purely on what we’ve seen, Sam IS coming across as an angry little bitch. I understand why he’s angry, I really do. But the way he’s acting is NOT sympathetic unless we see what’s going in his head. We can guess and speculate, but they never actually told or showed us how the situation affected him emotionally.I’m pretty sure Jared said in an interview that Sam’s reaction was to go introverted and think the whole thing through. I think that sounds very in character for Sam, but it doesn’t translate well on-screen. I always feel like we’re playing connect the dots with Sam’s feelings. Like we’re being left cryptic clues so we can piece it together ourselves. It would be nice though if just this once we could get a solid, articulate explanation of Sam’s words rather than a jumbled mess that doesn’t add up.
Right now Dean seems like a little lost puppy who Sam has decided to kick every episode. Sam has said some harsh things. Things that seem too harsh for what Dean did. It’s like there’s a disconnect between the situation at hand and Sam’s reaction. Many fans don’t understand it, and it’s obvious Dean has no freaking clue. Like when Sam said he wouldn’t have saved Dean. I’m sure Sam has his reasons for this, but they mean absolutely nothing unless are expressed out loud. I love Sam, it’s just frustrating when the show won’t show us what’s going on with him.
[quote name=”suebsg9″][quote
Lets talk about the Purge right after sam said he wouldn’t save Dean he walked away because end of eps but its like he just leaves they have to have longer conversations not just I wouldn’t save you Dean and then thats it leaving. to me it seems Sam seems to be running the show so when he wants to talk he will until then no discussing any of the matters at hand. Guessing we have to wait until he is good and ready to have it out. Because it won’t be pretty never is but they need to discuss it the longer its put on the back burner the harder it is going to be able to say stuff. And Sam has to listen to what Dean has to say likeing it or not if Dean has to listen to sam say he wishes he wasn’t alive he should have let him die and such then Sam has to listen to Dean no matter how much it hurts him to hear what his brother says. Only way the brothers will learn is if they listen to each other. And in Sharp Teeth Dean got out of the car to talk to SAm which again Sam called shots and got in car. But I think its when Sam is ready to talk him and Dean will talk otherwise guessing he won’t let Dean open up and if he doesn’t like what Dean has to say tough he will have to suck it up because Sam will say things Dean won’t want to hear but they grow from that. And only way they will be brothers if they are open and honest.[/quote]
i don’t think the purge ended with sam walking away. i think it ended with him sitting at the table.
i don’t understand this sam wants to run the show idea you have. in sharp teeth, again the end of the ep, sam insinuated that their relationship as brothers needed fixing, but he got into the car. unfortunately the show ended but given those types of conversations the boys have had in the past, there is no indication that the discussion would’ve continued in the car.
the only time sam walked away from dean was last night. and was he walking from dean? kevin was still there. isn’t it just as possible that sam went to his room because he was still dealing with the death of kevin. that he was possibly overwhelmed? i mean, he was standing before kevin and his mother and kevin confessed to sam that he knew it wasn’t really him that killed him. isn’t it the slightest bit possible that sam was upset. that kevin’s confession was more than he can handle at the moment and he couldn’t really handle much of anything else. he hestiated before he went into his room. he’s struggling with all of it right now. he deserves time to deal and process everything he’s been through. i love him, but it’s not all about dean.
so instead of going back and forth, i respectfully bow out of this conversation. let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that. 🙂
[quote][quote]
i don’t think the purge ended with sam walking away. i think it ended with him sitting at the table.
i don’t understand this sam wants to run the show idea you have. in sharp teeth, again the end of the ep, sam insinuated that their relationship as brothers needed fixing, but he got into the car. unfortunately the show ended but given those types of conversations the boys have had in the past, there is no indication that the discussion would’ve continued in the car.
the only time sam walked away from dean was last night. and was he walking from dean? kevin was still there. isn’t it just as possible that sam went to his room because he was still dealing with the death of kevin. that he was possibly overwhelmed? i mean, he was standing before kevin and his mother and kevin confessed to sam that he knew it wasn’t really him that killed him. isn’t it the slightest bit possible that sam was upset. that kevin’s confession was more than he can handle at the moment and he couldn’t really handle much of anything else. he hestiated before he went into his room. he’s struggling with all of it right now. he deserves time to deal and process everything he’s been through. i love him, but it’s not all about dean.
so instead of going back and forth, i respectfully bow out of this conversation. let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that. 🙂
Loved this episode! So good to see Kevin and Mrs. Tran. I teared up twice – once when Dean was speaking to ghost Kevin, and again when Kevin implored the guys to stop fighting. I also like Cas’ new Jesus vibe. He may have finally learned a lesson about the futility of war.
Count me among the confused about the neglected third captive, though.
I would totally watch a spin-off with Mrs, Tran and her ghost son/sidekick!
Loved this episode! So good to see Kevin and Mrs. Tran. I teared up twice – once when Dean was speaking to ghost Kevin, and again when Kevin implored the guys to stop fighting. I also like Cas’ new Jesus vibe. He may have finally learned a lesson about the futility of war.
Count me among the confused about the neglected third captive, though.
I would totally watch a spin-off with Mrs, Tran and her ghost son/sidekick!
.[quote]
i don’t think the purge ended with sam walking away. i think it ended with him sitting at the table.
i don’t understand this sam wants to run the show idea you have. in sharp teeth, again the end of the ep, sam insinuated that their relationship as brothers needed fixing, but he got into the car. unfortunately the show ended but given those types of conversations the boys have had in the past, there is no indication that the discussion would’ve continued in the car.
the only time sam walked away from dean was last night. and was he walking from dean? kevin was still there. isn’t it just as possible that sam went to his room because he was still dealing with the death of kevin. that he was possibly overwhelmed? i mean, he was standing before kevin and his mother and kevin confessed to sam that he knew it wasn’t really him that killed him. isn’t it the slightest bit possible that sam was upset. that kevin’s confession was more than he can handle at the moment and he couldn’t really handle much of anything else. he hestiated before he went into his room. he’s struggling with all of it right now. he deserves time to deal and process everything he’s been through. i love him, but it’s not all about dean.
so instead of going back and forth, i respectfully bow out of this conversation. let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that. :-)[/quote]
If Sam was standing there at the end then they would have shown him to but instead he got up from the table after dean made his declaration that he would do it all over again. SAm didn’t like hearing that and he said about not saving Dean and left. And then end with close up on Deans face. So it seems from Sam we get dramatic walk offs and dean we get closeups. Sam is basically gave Dean this is how we are going to do this professional like and well and not be brothers for now. So to me these are his terms. Yes Dean would not have to stay for the terms but I guess best to live in the conditions they are in then not working with sam at all. I am not saying it is all about Dean but to me its like Sam is going to try to communicate with Dean eventually and talk this out the more it stays this way the more he either pushes Dean away. I mean these two should not be living under same roof under these conditions good god as a viewer its hard to watch. To me the longer Sam processes this the more the writers are going to have saving his character because its like he does things like he did last night just take off and leave Dean and not say anything just I don’t want to talk about it now. I will let you know or something but give Dean some kind of indication then maybe he can be redeemed but its like I find it like Sam who all this was done to getting short end of the stick on less this is leading to darker Dean then hey then I have no problem with it at all. And I just wanted one last say and its fun to go back and fourth. we agree to disagree can live with that.
.[quote]
i don’t think the purge ended with sam walking away. i think it ended with him sitting at the table.
i don’t understand this sam wants to run the show idea you have. in sharp teeth, again the end of the ep, sam insinuated that their relationship as brothers needed fixing, but he got into the car. unfortunately the show ended but given those types of conversations the boys have had in the past, there is no indication that the discussion would’ve continued in the car.
the only time sam walked away from dean was last night. and was he walking from dean? kevin was still there. isn’t it just as possible that sam went to his room because he was still dealing with the death of kevin. that he was possibly overwhelmed? i mean, he was standing before kevin and his mother and kevin confessed to sam that he knew it wasn’t really him that killed him. isn’t it the slightest bit possible that sam was upset. that kevin’s confession was more than he can handle at the moment and he couldn’t really handle much of anything else. he hestiated before he went into his room. he’s struggling with all of it right now. he deserves time to deal and process everything he’s been through. i love him, but it’s not all about dean.
so instead of going back and forth, i respectfully bow out of this conversation. let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that. :-)[/quote]
If Sam was standing there at the end then they would have shown him to but instead he got up from the table after dean made his declaration that he would do it all over again. SAm didn’t like hearing that and he said about not saving Dean and left. And then end with close up on Deans face. So it seems from Sam we get dramatic walk offs and dean we get closeups. Sam is basically gave Dean this is how we are going to do this professional like and well and not be brothers for now. So to me these are his terms. Yes Dean would not have to stay for the terms but I guess best to live in the conditions they are in then not working with sam at all. I am not saying it is all about Dean but to me its like Sam is going to try to communicate with Dean eventually and talk this out the more it stays this way the more he either pushes Dean away. I mean these two should not be living under same roof under these conditions good god as a viewer its hard to watch. To me the longer Sam processes this the more the writers are going to have saving his character because its like he does things like he did last night just take off and leave Dean and not say anything just I don’t want to talk about it now. I will let you know or something but give Dean some kind of indication then maybe he can be redeemed but its like I find it like Sam who all this was done to getting short end of the stick on less this is leading to darker Dean then hey then I have no problem with it at all. And I just wanted one last say and its fun to go back and fourth. we agree to disagree can live with that.
Right now Dean seems like a little lost puppy who Sam has decided to kick every episode. Sam has said some harsh things. Things that seem too harsh for what Dean did. It’s like there’s a disconnect between the situation at hand and Sam’s reaction. Many fans don’t understand it, and it’s obvious Dean has no freaking clue. Like when Sam said he wouldn’t have saved Dean. I’m sure Sam has his
reasons for this, but they mean absolutely nothing unless are expressed out loud. I love Sam, it’s just frustrating when the show won’t show us what’s going on with him.[/quote]
thing is dean isn’t an innocent lost puppy. the way i see it dean did do something that deserves harsh words. dean broke sam’s trust in him. the one thing that is most important to sam, the one thing that sam has never wavered on. his absolute trust in dean.
always. dean took that trust and used it against sam.
sam accepted his fate and was ready to go, a decision that was his to make and dean didn’t like this decision and thus turned to unscrupulous means to override it. dean said to ezekiel that sam would rather die than be possessed, given sam’s history of possession and the deaths by his hand. dean knew it went against everything sam would ever want but he did it anyway. he tricked his brother into saying yes and lied to him about it. he let sam believe he was “all wrong”, that it was him and not the trials. he llet sam think he was crazy due to his lost time. he never once told sam the truth as time went on, trusting in sam to make his own decision regarding angel possession to heal him and the cherry on top is that kevin died by sam’s hand. a member of their family. someone sam already felt like he let down when he couldn’t hunt in s8. again i’ll never understand why sam is seen as the villain and dean the victim. dean didn’t even say he was sorry to sam. he told him he’d do it all again.
and he’s being harsh because he told dean that in the same circumstances roles reversed he wouldn’t do that to his brother. that he would never go against his wishes despite the pain sam would suffer due to dean’s request. isn’t that what sam did at the beginning of s8? he thought dean died and did nothing because they made a promise to ea. other and sam kept that promise…even though he imploded.
dean told sam he would do it again. he is willing not only to break sam’s trust again but he’s willing to let kevin die again. how is sam supposed to live with that? dean couldn’t even deal with that guy dying in faith because he got healed. he told sam he shouldn’t have brought him there. someone was dead because of him. that was a stranger. this is kevin’s death that sam has to live with. and dean would let kevin die all over again. are me and sam so alone out here that we are the only ones that think that that is definitely not okay? it’s lonely on this island.
sorry i love dean i do. but he’s not the victim. yes it was done from love, but he’s not the victim here. sam is not being harsher than dean deserves. i think coddling dean and making what he did seem alright is more damaging for dean. imo, the dark place they said dean was in, i don’t think it’s his guilt over kevin…i think his dark place is his constant willingness to go to any and all measures to save sam, regardless of what sam wants and regardless of everyone else. i think his dark place is the reason he does go to these extremes. the way i see it, sam is trying to make dean see that. that in my book is love.
again, jmo…..
Right now Dean seems like a little lost puppy who Sam has decided to kick every episode. Sam has said some harsh things. Things that seem too harsh for what Dean did. It’s like there’s a disconnect between the situation at hand and Sam’s reaction. Many fans don’t understand it, and it’s obvious Dean has no freaking clue. Like when Sam said he wouldn’t have saved Dean. I’m sure Sam has his
reasons for this, but they mean absolutely nothing unless are expressed out loud. I love Sam, it’s just frustrating when the show won’t show us what’s going on with him.[/quote]
thing is dean isn’t an innocent lost puppy. the way i see it dean did do something that deserves harsh words. dean broke sam’s trust in him. the one thing that is most important to sam, the one thing that sam has never wavered on. his absolute trust in dean.
always. dean took that trust and used it against sam.
sam accepted his fate and was ready to go, a decision that was his to make and dean didn’t like this decision and thus turned to unscrupulous means to override it. dean said to ezekiel that sam would rather die than be possessed, given sam’s history of possession and the deaths by his hand. dean knew it went against everything sam would ever want but he did it anyway. he tricked his brother into saying yes and lied to him about it. he let sam believe he was “all wrong”, that it was him and not the trials. he llet sam think he was crazy due to his lost time. he never once told sam the truth as time went on, trusting in sam to make his own decision regarding angel possession to heal him and the cherry on top is that kevin died by sam’s hand. a member of their family. someone sam already felt like he let down when he couldn’t hunt in s8. again i’ll never understand why sam is seen as the villain and dean the victim. dean didn’t even say he was sorry to sam. he told him he’d do it all again.
and he’s being harsh because he told dean that in the same circumstances roles reversed he wouldn’t do that to his brother. that he would never go against his wishes despite the pain sam would suffer due to dean’s request. isn’t that what sam did at the beginning of s8? he thought dean died and did nothing because they made a promise to ea. other and sam kept that promise…even though he imploded.
dean told sam he would do it again. he is willing not only to break sam’s trust again but he’s willing to let kevin die again. how is sam supposed to live with that? dean couldn’t even deal with that guy dying in faith because he got healed. he told sam he shouldn’t have brought him there. someone was dead because of him. that was a stranger. this is kevin’s death that sam has to live with. and dean would let kevin die all over again. are me and sam so alone out here that we are the only ones that think that that is definitely not okay? it’s lonely on this island.
sorry i love dean i do. but he’s not the victim. yes it was done from love, but he’s not the victim here. sam is not being harsher than dean deserves. i think coddling dean and making what he did seem alright is more damaging for dean. imo, the dark place they said dean was in, i don’t think it’s his guilt over kevin…i think his dark place is his constant willingness to go to any and all measures to save sam, regardless of what sam wants and regardless of everyone else. i think his dark place is the reason he does go to these extremes. the way i see it, sam is trying to make dean see that. that in my book is love.
again, jmo…..
#72 At the end of the Purge that catalyst for Sam to open up to Dean about how he was feeling was Dean stating even knowing the consequences he would do it again. It ended with Sam telling Dean “same circumstances” no he would not save Dean that way. Then when there really wasn’t anymore for either of them to say Sam went to bed. Dean could have stopped him and asked him to clarify what he meant and I wish that he had because it went over the heads of many fans and reviewers. Last nights episode had Sam walking away before Dean said anything. He didn’t hear Dean. He paused at the door because he really did want to talk but decided not to. We don’t know why we can only surmise. Neither brother wants to walk away from the other. They clearly have a life time of experiences, tragedies, triumphs, deaths and resurrections. They are brothers. And judging by their actions in this episode they still care very much about each other. They are not going to give up that easily. Neither one is going anywhere at the moment.
#72 At the end of the Purge that catalyst for Sam to open up to Dean about how he was feeling was Dean stating even knowing the consequences he would do it again. It ended with Sam telling Dean “same circumstances” no he would not save Dean that way. Then when there really wasn’t anymore for either of them to say Sam went to bed. Dean could have stopped him and asked him to clarify what he meant and I wish that he had because it went over the heads of many fans and reviewers. Last nights episode had Sam walking away before Dean said anything. He didn’t hear Dean. He paused at the door because he really did want to talk but decided not to. We don’t know why we can only surmise. Neither brother wants to walk away from the other. They clearly have a life time of experiences, tragedies, triumphs, deaths and resurrections. They are brothers. And judging by their actions in this episode they still care very much about each other. They are not going to give up that easily. Neither one is going anywhere at the moment.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]#72 At the end of the Purge that catalyst for Sam to open up to Dean about how he was feeling was Dean stating even knowing the consequences he would do it again. It ended with Sam telling Dean “same circumstances” no he would not save Dean that way. Then when there really wasn’t anymore for either of them to say Sam went to bed. Dean could have stopped him and asked him to clarify what he meant and I wish that he had because it went over the heads of many fans and reviewers. Last nights episode had Sam walking away before Dean said anything. He didn’t hear Dean. He paused at the door because he really did want to talk but decided not to. We don’t know why we can only surmise. Neither brother wants to walk away from the other. They clearly have a life time of experiences, tragedies, triumphs, deaths and resurrections. They are brothers. And judging by their actions in this episode they still care very much about each other. They are not going to give up that easily. Neither one is going anywhere at the moment.[/quote]
Very well said thank you 🙂
[quote]#72 At the end of the Purge that catalyst for Sam to open up to Dean about how he was feeling was Dean stating even knowing the consequences he would do it again. It ended with Sam telling Dean “same circumstances” no he would not save Dean that way. Then when there really wasn’t anymore for either of them to say Sam went to bed. Dean could have stopped him and asked him to clarify what he meant and I wish that he had because it went over the heads of many fans and reviewers. Last nights episode had Sam walking away before Dean said anything. He didn’t hear Dean. He paused at the door because he really did want to talk but decided not to. We don’t know why we can only surmise. Neither brother wants to walk away from the other. They clearly have a life time of experiences, tragedies, triumphs, deaths and resurrections. They are brothers. And judging by their actions in this episode they still care very much about each other. They are not going to give up that easily. Neither one is going anywhere at the moment.[/quote]
Very well said thank you 🙂
[quote name=”suebsg9″].[quote]
i don’t think the purge ended with sam walking away. i think it ended with him sitting at the table.
i don’t understand this sam wants to run the show idea you have. in sharp teeth, again the end of the ep, sam insinuated that their relationship as brothers needed fixing, but he got into the car. unfortunately the show ended but given those types of conversations the boys have had in the past, there is no indication that the discussion would’ve continued in the car.
the only time sam walked away from dean was last night. and was he walking from dean? kevin was still there. isn’t it just as possible that sam went to his room because he was still dealing with the death of kevin. that he was possibly overwhelmed? i mean, he was standing before kevin and his mother and kevin confessed to sam that he knew it wasn’t really him that killed him. isn’t it the slightest bit possible that sam was upset. that kevin’s confession was more than he can handle at the moment and he couldn’t really handle much of anything else. he hestiated before he went into his room. he’s struggling with all of it right now. he deserves time to deal and process everything he’s been through. i love him, but it’s not all about dean.
so instead of going back and forth, i respectfully bow out of this conversation. let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that. :-)[/quote]
If Sam was standing there at the end then they would have shown him to but instead he got up from the table after dean made his declaration that he would do it all over again. SAm didn’t like hearing that and he said about not saving Dean and left. And then end with close up on Deans face. So it seems from Sam we get dramatic walk offs and dean we get closeups. Sam is basically gave Dean this is how we are going to do this professional like and well and not be brothers for now. So to me these are his terms. Yes Dean would not have to stay for the terms but I guess best to live in the conditions they are in then not working with sam at all. I am not saying it is all about Dean but to me its like Sam is going to try to communicate with Dean eventually and talk this out the more it stays this way the more he either pushes Dean away. I mean these two should not be living under same roof under these conditions good god as a viewer its hard to watch. To me the longer Sam processes this the more the writers are going to have saving his character because its like he does things like he did last night just take off and leave Dean and not say anything just I don’t want to talk about it now. I will let you know or something but give Dean some kind of indication then maybe he can be redeemed but its like I find it like Sam who all this was done to getting short end of the stick on less this is leading to darker Dean then hey then I have no problem with it at all. And I just wanted one last say and its fun to go back and fourth. we agree to disagree can live with that.[/quote]
i think the point of the walk off from sam was to give dean time to think about what sam said. i think the point of sam telling his terms to dean in sharp teeth and then just getting into the car was again, to get dean to think about things.
that’s one of the differences between sam and dean right. sam thinks things through. dean doesn’t. well i think sam wanted dean to think things through. he wants to get dean to open up to him, but he also knows that dean just doesn’t do that. it takes time to get to dean. seems to me that’s exactly what sam is doing.
it may not seem like it, but i too kind of enjoy the back and forth..we totally don’t agree on most things but it makes for great debate.
different eyes and all. 😀
good point cheryl. sam did walk away before dean even turned to talk at him. i still don’t think he was running from dean as much as he was overwhelmed by kevin.
[quote].[quote]
i don’t think the purge ended with sam walking away. i think it ended with him sitting at the table.
i don’t understand this sam wants to run the show idea you have. in sharp teeth, again the end of the ep, sam insinuated that their relationship as brothers needed fixing, but he got into the car. unfortunately the show ended but given those types of conversations the boys have had in the past, there is no indication that the discussion would’ve continued in the car.
the only time sam walked away from dean was last night. and was he walking from dean? kevin was still there. isn’t it just as possible that sam went to his room because he was still dealing with the death of kevin. that he was possibly overwhelmed? i mean, he was standing before kevin and his mother and kevin confessed to sam that he knew it wasn’t really him that killed him. isn’t it the slightest bit possible that sam was upset. that kevin’s confession was more than he can handle at the moment and he couldn’t really handle much of anything else. he hestiated before he went into his room. he’s struggling with all of it right now. he deserves time to deal and process everything he’s been through. i love him, but it’s not all about dean.
so instead of going back and forth, i respectfully bow out of this conversation. let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that. :-)[/quote]
If Sam was standing there at the end then they would have shown him to but instead he got up from the table after dean made his declaration that he would do it all over again. SAm didn’t like hearing that and he said about not saving Dean and left. And then end with close up on Deans face. So it seems from Sam we get dramatic walk offs and dean we get closeups. Sam is basically gave Dean this is how we are going to do this professional like and well and not be brothers for now. So to me these are his terms. Yes Dean would not have to stay for the terms but I guess best to live in the conditions they are in then not working with sam at all. I am not saying it is all about Dean but to me its like Sam is going to try to communicate with Dean eventually and talk this out the more it stays this way the more he either pushes Dean away. I mean these two should not be living under same roof under these conditions good god as a viewer its hard to watch. To me the longer Sam processes this the more the writers are going to have saving his character because its like he does things like he did last night just take off and leave Dean and not say anything just I don’t want to talk about it now. I will let you know or something but give Dean some kind of indication then maybe he can be redeemed but its like I find it like Sam who all this was done to getting short end of the stick on less this is leading to darker Dean then hey then I have no problem with it at all. And I just wanted one last say and its fun to go back and fourth. we agree to disagree can live with that.[/quote]
i think the point of the walk off from sam was to give dean time to think about what sam said. i think the point of sam telling his terms to dean in sharp teeth and then just getting into the car was again, to get dean to think about things.
that’s one of the differences between sam and dean right. sam thinks things through. dean doesn’t. well i think sam wanted dean to think things through. he wants to get dean to open up to him, but he also knows that dean just doesn’t do that. it takes time to get to dean. seems to me that’s exactly what sam is doing.
it may not seem like it, but i too kind of enjoy the back and forth..we totally don’t agree on most things but it makes for great debate.
different eyes and all. 😀
good point cheryl. sam did walk away before dean even turned to talk at him. i still don’t think he was running from dean as much as he was overwhelmed by kevin.
Nappi agreed. Anyone would have been a little overwhelmed and unable to have a heart to heart at that moment. It is going to come (Jared promised).
Nappi agreed. Anyone would have been a little overwhelmed and unable to have a heart to heart at that moment. It is going to come (Jared promised).
@ nappi
I think “seems” was the operative word in my statement. Of course Dean’s to blame for a lot of what’s happened, and Sam telling him off is to be expected. But the harshness of Sam’s words in conjunction with Dean’s heartbreakingly sad looks and Sam’s facade of cool indifference have painted Dean as the more sympathetic character. Basically we have all this pain and hurt flowing out of Dean, but from Sam we get anger. We know what Dean did. I know how that would hurt Sam, but mainly because I understand the character. If I didn’t I would not think Sam was that broken up about it. I’d probably say he was just “pissed”, without all the pain and betrayal that justifies that anger. We’re watching Dean struggle, but we’re not watching Sam struggle. And without that, it’s more difficult to relate to Sam as a character.
Sam took what Dean did to heart. We know he took it as a betrayal and it probably hurt him very deeply. But I just wish the show itself felt like showing us this. Because without Sam’s perspective it’s just Sam’s anger vs. Dean’s pain and Sam wrongfully seems like he’s just being sadistically hurtful.
@ nappi
I think “seems” was the operative word in my statement. Of course Dean’s to blame for a lot of what’s happened, and Sam telling him off is to be expected. But the harshness of Sam’s words in conjunction with Dean’s heartbreakingly sad looks and Sam’s facade of cool indifference have painted Dean as the more sympathetic character. Basically we have all this pain and hurt flowing out of Dean, but from Sam we get anger. We know what Dean did. I know how that would hurt Sam, but mainly because I understand the character. If I didn’t I would not think Sam was that broken up about it. I’d probably say he was just “pissed”, without all the pain and betrayal that justifies that anger. We’re watching Dean struggle, but we’re not watching Sam struggle. And without that, it’s more difficult to relate to Sam as a character.
Sam took what Dean did to heart. We know he took it as a betrayal and it probably hurt him very deeply. But I just wish the show itself felt like showing us this. Because without Sam’s perspective it’s just Sam’s anger vs. Dean’s pain and Sam wrongfully seems like he’s just being sadistically hurtful.
[quote name=”Aqualilies”]@ nappi
I think “seems” was the operative word in my statement. Of course Dean’s to blame for a lot of what’s happened, and Sam telling him off is to be expected. But the harshness of Sam’s words in conjunction with Dean’s heartbreakingly sad looks and Sam’s facade of cool indifference have painted Dean as the more sympathetic character. Basically we have all this pain and hurt flowing out of Dean, but from Sam we get anger. We know what Dean did. I know how that would hurt Sam, but mainly because I understand the character. If I didn’t I would not think Sam was that broken up about it. I’d probably say he was just “pissed”, without all the pain and betrayal that justifies that anger. We’re watching Dean struggle, but we’re not watching Sam struggle. And without that, it’s more difficult to relate to Sam as a character.
Sam took what Dean did to heart. We know he took it as a betrayal and it probably hurt him very deeply. But I just wish the show itself felt like showing us this. Because without Sam’s perspective it’s just Sam’s anger vs. Dean’s pain and Sam wrongfully seems like he’s just being sadistically hurtful.[/quote]
i think it’s coming. sam as was noted in an above post is an introvert. dean wears his heart on his sleeve and sam just keeps it all bottled up until something eventually breaks him. i don’t doubt that we will be getting more input from sam soon. it just takes him longer to open up. hell it took him 8 yrs to admit to dean that he felt like he was a total disappointment to him. and it took him like 25 years to open up to dean about feeling impure his whole life. gee, let’s hope it doesn’t take that long for sam to open up this time. 😆
[quote]@ nappi
I think “seems” was the operative word in my statement. Of course Dean’s to blame for a lot of what’s happened, and Sam telling him off is to be expected. But the harshness of Sam’s words in conjunction with Dean’s heartbreakingly sad looks and Sam’s facade of cool indifference have painted Dean as the more sympathetic character. Basically we have all this pain and hurt flowing out of Dean, but from Sam we get anger. We know what Dean did. I know how that would hurt Sam, but mainly because I understand the character. If I didn’t I would not think Sam was that broken up about it. I’d probably say he was just “pissed”, without all the pain and betrayal that justifies that anger. We’re watching Dean struggle, but we’re not watching Sam struggle. And without that, it’s more difficult to relate to Sam as a character.
Sam took what Dean did to heart. We know he took it as a betrayal and it probably hurt him very deeply. But I just wish the show itself felt like showing us this. Because without Sam’s perspective it’s just Sam’s anger vs. Dean’s pain and Sam wrongfully seems like he’s just being sadistically hurtful.[/quote]
i think it’s coming. sam as was noted in an above post is an introvert. dean wears his heart on his sleeve and sam just keeps it all bottled up until something eventually breaks him. i don’t doubt that we will be getting more input from sam soon. it just takes him longer to open up. hell it took him 8 yrs to admit to dean that he felt like he was a total disappointment to him. and it took him like 25 years to open up to dean about feeling impure his whole life. gee, let’s hope it doesn’t take that long for sam to open up this time. 😆
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Nappi agreed. Anyone would have been a little overwhelmed and unable to have a heart to heart at that moment. It is going to come (Jared promised).[/quote]
i have no doubts. i can’t wait for this all to come to a head…the payoff is going to be amazing…i just know it. 😆
[quote]Nappi agreed. Anyone would have been a little overwhelmed and unable to have a heart to heart at that moment. It is going to come (Jared promised).[/quote]
i have no doubts. i can’t wait for this all to come to a head…the payoff is going to be amazing…i just know it. 😆
Ahem – Please excuse the following rant:
In a recent article on this site it was noted that not only is Sam suffering from a lack of POV, but that Dean is suffering from a saturation of POV. I can’t remember who said that, (sorry, because you are dead on) but boy do I agree! We’ve all discussed Sam’s lack of POV and revealing character details ad nauseam on this site. But now, it’s time to discuss Dean’s over saturation because quite frankly it’s as big a problem as Sam’s lack of POV and IMO becoming equally as damaging to his character. I really, really felt that in this episode especially. I love Dean, I really do.. but man, I wanted to kick him in the family jewels this episode; I am sick to death of the never ending Dean Winchester guilt trip. How many times have we seen it this season 😳 ? I don’t want to hear Dean flagellate himself any more, especially when he flat out refuses to change his behavior. He’s stagnating as a character IMO, and I find it irritating in the extreme; to me there is nothing more boring in a drama than a character who never changes, who never grows despite multiple life changing events. In addition, the PTB have felt compelled (for reasons that I can’t fathom) to inundate us at every turn with Dean’s feelings, motives, responses, sacrifices and his never ending stream of guilt, until anvils are falling from the sky. There is zero mystery to anything the man does and the tedious repetition makes me want to gouge my eyes out from the sheer repetitiveness of it. I was actually peeved at Dean pretty much this whole episode because of how incredibly stagnated he is. I don’t feel like Dean has earned the right to have a pity party over Kevin when, by his own admission, he’d do it all over again. The hypocrisy of that POV makes my stomach turn. Sam has always been underwritten, but Dean is now being OVER written; do you notice that we NEVER speculate about ANYTHING Dean does EVER? I know that we have to piece together the slim little bits and pieces we are given to create a Sam that makes sense, but at least there’s something interesting about discussing his motives and speculating about his mind set. But Dean… we have been spoon fed every last shred about him; there’s no mystery, no contradiction, nothing to consider or puzzle. Its all the SAME; and quite frankly, boring and as repetitive as dirt. I really hope that the MoC sends Dean off the rails in a way that makes him more of an enigma.. that makes him act out of character or grow secretive or makes us wonder what the f*** he’s up to; because this repetitive, self pitying, unchanging person is NOT INTERESTING.
Sorry, rant over. 😳
Ahem – Please excuse the following rant:
In a recent article on this site it was noted that not only is Sam suffering from a lack of POV, but that Dean is suffering from a saturation of POV. I can’t remember who said that, (sorry, because you are dead on) but boy do I agree! We’ve all discussed Sam’s lack of POV and revealing character details ad nauseam on this site. But now, it’s time to discuss Dean’s over saturation because quite frankly it’s as big a problem as Sam’s lack of POV and IMO becoming equally as damaging to his character. I really, really felt that in this episode especially. I love Dean, I really do.. but man, I wanted to kick him in the family jewels this episode; I am sick to death of the never ending Dean Winchester guilt trip. How many times have we seen it this season 😳 ? I don’t want to hear Dean flagellate himself any more, especially when he flat out refuses to change his behavior. He’s stagnating as a character IMO, and I find it irritating in the extreme; to me there is nothing more boring in a drama than a character who never changes, who never grows despite multiple life changing events. In addition, the PTB have felt compelled (for reasons that I can’t fathom) to inundate us at every turn with Dean’s feelings, motives, responses, sacrifices and his never ending stream of guilt, until anvils are falling from the sky. There is zero mystery to anything the man does and the tedious repetition makes me want to gouge my eyes out from the sheer repetitiveness of it. I was actually peeved at Dean pretty much this whole episode because of how incredibly stagnated he is. I don’t feel like Dean has earned the right to have a pity party over Kevin when, by his own admission, he’d do it all over again. The hypocrisy of that POV makes my stomach turn. Sam has always been underwritten, but Dean is now being OVER written; do you notice that we NEVER speculate about ANYTHING Dean does EVER? I know that we have to piece together the slim little bits and pieces we are given to create a Sam that makes sense, but at least there’s something interesting about discussing his motives and speculating about his mind set. But Dean… we have been spoon fed every last shred about him; there’s no mystery, no contradiction, nothing to consider or puzzle. Its all the SAME; and quite frankly, boring and as repetitive as dirt. I really hope that the MoC sends Dean off the rails in a way that makes him more of an enigma.. that makes him act out of character or grow secretive or makes us wonder what the f*** he’s up to; because this repetitive, self pitying, unchanging person is NOT INTERESTING.
Sorry, rant over. 😳
[quote name=”cheryl42″]In all fairness to Sam he did just have to tell Mrs. Tran that her son was dead. He stills feels guilty about killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told him he knew it wasn’t him doesn’t erase what Sam feels. I’m sure he also still blames Dean for having him possessed in the first place. Watching Mrs. Tran and Kevin leave the bunker as mom and ghost had to have been hard. Besides knowing that Kevin was now stuck
in limbo land because again Sam killed him. I don’t
think that Sam was in a place at the moment to have a
heart to heart with Dean. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to
he just couldn’t.
I too was puzzled by the third victim. And has anyone
noticed that Dean doesn’t seem to be sleeping? MOC
side affect maybe? We really need to get on with that
storyline.[/quote]
I really have trouble buying Sam’s guilt when he abandoned the kid for a year and didn’t feel responsible for anyone that died on his year off.
Maybe Kevin finds it easy to forgive Dean because Dean he knows that Dean would have risked his life to save him from Crowley, Gadreel, anything… and that kind of nonstop heroics and dedication trumps everything else. Maybe Kevin realizes that he was a dead man regardless of what Dean did or didn’t do.
[quote]In all fairness to Sam he did just have to tell Mrs. Tran that her son was dead. He stills feels guilty about killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told him he knew it wasn’t him doesn’t erase what Sam feels. I’m sure he also still blames Dean for having him possessed in the first place. Watching Mrs. Tran and Kevin leave the bunker as mom and ghost had to have been hard. Besides knowing that Kevin was now stuck
in limbo land because again Sam killed him. I don’t
think that Sam was in a place at the moment to have a
heart to heart with Dean. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to
he just couldn’t.
I too was puzzled by the third victim. And has anyone
noticed that Dean doesn’t seem to be sleeping? MOC
side affect maybe? We really need to get on with that
storyline.[/quote]
I really have trouble buying Sam’s guilt when he abandoned the kid for a year and didn’t feel responsible for anyone that died on his year off.
Maybe Kevin finds it easy to forgive Dean because Dean he knows that Dean would have risked his life to save him from Crowley, Gadreel, anything… and that kind of nonstop heroics and dedication trumps everything else. Maybe Kevin realizes that he was a dead man regardless of what Dean did or didn’t do.
[quote name=”E”]Ahem – Please excuse the following rant:
In a recent article on this site it was noted that not only is Sam suffering from a lack of POV, but that Dean is suffering from a saturation of POV. I can’t remember who said that, (sorry, because you are dead on) but boy do I agree! We’ve all discussed Sam’s lack of POV and revealing character details ad nauseam on this site. But now, it’s time to discuss Dean’s over saturation because quite frankly it’s as big a problem as Sam’s lack of POV and IMO becoming equally as damaging to his character. I really, really felt that in this episode especially. I love Dean, I really do.. but man, I wanted to kick him in the family jewels this episode; I am sick to death of the never ending Dean Winchester guilt trip. How many times have we seen it this season 😳 ? I don’t want to hear Dean flagellate himself any more, especially when he flat out refuses to change his behavior. He’s stagnating as a character IMO, and I find it irritating in the extreme; to me there is nothing more boring in a drama than a character who never changes, who never grows despite multiple life changing events. In addition, the PTB have felt compelled (for reasons that I can’t fathom) to inundate us at every turn with Dean’s feelings, motives, responses, sacrifices and his never ending stream of guilt, until anvils are falling from the sky. There is zero mystery to anything the man does and the tedious repetition makes me want to gouge my eyes out from the sheer repetitiveness of it. I was actually peeved at Dean pretty much this whole episode because of how incredibly stagnated he is. I don’t feel like Dean has earned the right to have a pity party over Kevin when, by his own admission, he’d do it all over again. The hypocrisy of that POV makes my stomach turn. Sam has always been underwritten, but Dean is now being OVER written; do you notice that we NEVER speculate about ANYTHING Dean does EVER? I know that we have to piece together the slim little bits and pieces we are given to create a Sam that makes sense, but at least there’s something interesting about discussing his motives and speculating about his mind set. But Dean… we have been spoon fed every last shred about him; there’s no mystery, no contradiction, nothing to consider or puzzle. Its all the SAME; and quite frankly, boring and as repetitive as dirt. I really hope that the MoC sends Dean off the rails in a way that makes him more of an enigma.. that makes him act out of character or grow secretive or makes us wonder what the f*** he’s up to; because this repetitive, self pitying, unchanging person is NOT INTERESTING.
Sorry, rant over. :oops:[/quote]
always enjoy reading your posts, including your rants. i understand your frustration and it’s ok to get it off your chest.
you do make valid point. i found it quite ironic that dean was making this speech to kevin about how he let him down on his watch when not a few episodes ago he told sam he would do what he did again. i wonder if kevin heard that?
i do agree with you that dean’s constant self pity is quite tedious. and for the life of me i don’t get why dean is constantly seen as the one who was wronged.
i agree that sam pov would be most welcome but is it really that far of a stretch to understand what sam must be feeling right now.
imagine you come home one night and you find out that an intruder invaded your home. this intruder rummaged through your personal belongings. touched your things. invaded your privacy . violated your home. how would that make you feel? it’s what happened to sam. someone invaded his body, his home. invaded sam’s privacy by rummaing through his thoughts and feelings. he violated sam’s body and mind. this intruder who invaded your home, what if that person got in because a loved one gave them the key? would you be angry with that loved one? would you lose trust in that love one?would you be hurt and angry? would you so easily sympathize and feel sorry for this person or would you need time to forgive? because that’s exactly what sam is going through right now.
[quote]Ahem – Please excuse the following rant:
In a recent article on this site it was noted that not only is Sam suffering from a lack of POV, but that Dean is suffering from a saturation of POV. I can’t remember who said that, (sorry, because you are dead on) but boy do I agree! We’ve all discussed Sam’s lack of POV and revealing character details ad nauseam on this site. But now, it’s time to discuss Dean’s over saturation because quite frankly it’s as big a problem as Sam’s lack of POV and IMO becoming equally as damaging to his character. I really, really felt that in this episode especially. I love Dean, I really do.. but man, I wanted to kick him in the family jewels this episode; I am sick to death of the never ending Dean Winchester guilt trip. How many times have we seen it this season 😳 ? I don’t want to hear Dean flagellate himself any more, especially when he flat out refuses to change his behavior. He’s stagnating as a character IMO, and I find it irritating in the extreme; to me there is nothing more boring in a drama than a character who never changes, who never grows despite multiple life changing events. In addition, the PTB have felt compelled (for reasons that I can’t fathom) to inundate us at every turn with Dean’s feelings, motives, responses, sacrifices and his never ending stream of guilt, until anvils are falling from the sky. There is zero mystery to anything the man does and the tedious repetition makes me want to gouge my eyes out from the sheer repetitiveness of it. I was actually peeved at Dean pretty much this whole episode because of how incredibly stagnated he is. I don’t feel like Dean has earned the right to have a pity party over Kevin when, by his own admission, he’d do it all over again. The hypocrisy of that POV makes my stomach turn. Sam has always been underwritten, but Dean is now being OVER written; do you notice that we NEVER speculate about ANYTHING Dean does EVER? I know that we have to piece together the slim little bits and pieces we are given to create a Sam that makes sense, but at least there’s something interesting about discussing his motives and speculating about his mind set. But Dean… we have been spoon fed every last shred about him; there’s no mystery, no contradiction, nothing to consider or puzzle. Its all the SAME; and quite frankly, boring and as repetitive as dirt. I really hope that the MoC sends Dean off the rails in a way that makes him more of an enigma.. that makes him act out of character or grow secretive or makes us wonder what the f*** he’s up to; because this repetitive, self pitying, unchanging person is NOT INTERESTING.
Sorry, rant over. :oops:[/quote]
always enjoy reading your posts, including your rants. i understand your frustration and it’s ok to get it off your chest.
you do make valid point. i found it quite ironic that dean was making this speech to kevin about how he let him down on his watch when not a few episodes ago he told sam he would do what he did again. i wonder if kevin heard that?
i do agree with you that dean’s constant self pity is quite tedious. and for the life of me i don’t get why dean is constantly seen as the one who was wronged.
i agree that sam pov would be most welcome but is it really that far of a stretch to understand what sam must be feeling right now.
imagine you come home one night and you find out that an intruder invaded your home. this intruder rummaged through your personal belongings. touched your things. invaded your privacy . violated your home. how would that make you feel? it’s what happened to sam. someone invaded his body, his home. invaded sam’s privacy by rummaing through his thoughts and feelings. he violated sam’s body and mind. this intruder who invaded your home, what if that person got in because a loved one gave them the key? would you be angry with that loved one? would you lose trust in that love one?would you be hurt and angry? would you so easily sympathize and feel sorry for this person or would you need time to forgive? because that’s exactly what sam is going through right now.
Noticed that Dean is not sleeping. He usually requires 4 hours of sleep every once and a while. The last time a Winchester did not sleep it was Sam and he had an issue with his soul. Now Dean? Has the Mark of Cain/ Association with Crowley tainted his soul? He says he is tight with Crowley and I don’t think he was being that sarcastic. Dean was watching Unforgiven last episode. I thought it was the Clint Eastwood movie, but in season 6 there is an episode with the same title in which Sam seeks redemption for the year he did some awful things when he had no soul. Coincidence?
Criticize Sam for being cold to Dean if you must but- he still has heart/soul when he deals with other such as Martiza or Mrs. Tran and it is evident he feels. He feels for himself- which is okay if you view Sam as a molestation victim. It would be unrealistic for him to come through the ordeal without feeling broken or looking at the bystander who let it happen. So I think there is a POV from Sam, it is not in words. As to Dean’s airing of his self degradation- well that is Dean’s go to. He screwed up and admits it but is unable to change his approach. He has difficulty changing his approach. It cost him Lisa and Ben. Now Sam. The writers are not done with us yet. I found myself thinking that Kevin is not vengeful so it was a nice addition to the character and finally I liked Mrs. Tran. She would make a good “bobby” answering phones/giving motherly advice to hunters, now that she is truly a fierce killer of demons.
Noticed that Dean is not sleeping. He usually requires 4 hours of sleep every once and a while. The last time a Winchester did not sleep it was Sam and he had an issue with his soul. Now Dean? Has the Mark of Cain/ Association with Crowley tainted his soul? He says he is tight with Crowley and I don’t think he was being that sarcastic. Dean was watching Unforgiven last episode. I thought it was the Clint Eastwood movie, but in season 6 there is an episode with the same title in which Sam seeks redemption for the year he did some awful things when he had no soul. Coincidence?
Criticize Sam for being cold to Dean if you must but- he still has heart/soul when he deals with other such as Martiza or Mrs. Tran and it is evident he feels. He feels for himself- which is okay if you view Sam as a molestation victim. It would be unrealistic for him to come through the ordeal without feeling broken or looking at the bystander who let it happen. So I think there is a POV from Sam, it is not in words. As to Dean’s airing of his self degradation- well that is Dean’s go to. He screwed up and admits it but is unable to change his approach. He has difficulty changing his approach. It cost him Lisa and Ben. Now Sam. The writers are not done with us yet. I found myself thinking that Kevin is not vengeful so it was a nice addition to the character and finally I liked Mrs. Tran. She would make a good “bobby” answering phones/giving motherly advice to hunters, now that she is truly a fierce killer of demons.
Hi nappi815, I enjoy your posts too. I liked the episode well enough, but I’ll admit that I was continually distracted by my irritation over the previously mentioned over-saturation of a certain character, so I’ll admit to maybe not paying very good attention at times. I think I’ll need to watch the ep again.
Another thing that struck me was in how wonderfully ‘well adjusted’ all of the other characters seemed in this ep. I mean, wasn’t Kevin just soooo well adjusted for a dead man? And wasn’t Mrs. Tran, formerly a rabid Tiger Momma just really, really forgiving and calm? Too much I think. It didn’t ring true to me. As a mother, shouldn’t Mrs. Tran have been ready to tear both Sam and Dean a new one? I mean, I realize Dean could never have dreamed of the circumstance that have come out of his decisions and Sam was clearly not in control of what he was doing; but to a mother that should probably not have mattered much. Mothers of dead children are not rational usually, and grieving family members on this show have typically been shown to be less than accepting. Look at how much the death of Mary affected John? He went off the rails for basically the remainder of his life, never getting over his grief, taking that pain out on everyone and everything around him. Both Kevin and his mom were just a little too calm and a little too understanding for my to buy into that part of the story line.
Hi nappi815, I enjoy your posts too. I liked the episode well enough, but I’ll admit that I was continually distracted by my irritation over the previously mentioned over-saturation of a certain character, so I’ll admit to maybe not paying very good attention at times. I think I’ll need to watch the ep again.
Another thing that struck me was in how wonderfully ‘well adjusted’ all of the other characters seemed in this ep. I mean, wasn’t Kevin just soooo well adjusted for a dead man? And wasn’t Mrs. Tran, formerly a rabid Tiger Momma just really, really forgiving and calm? Too much I think. It didn’t ring true to me. As a mother, shouldn’t Mrs. Tran have been ready to tear both Sam and Dean a new one? I mean, I realize Dean could never have dreamed of the circumstance that have come out of his decisions and Sam was clearly not in control of what he was doing; but to a mother that should probably not have mattered much. Mothers of dead children are not rational usually, and grieving family members on this show have typically been shown to be less than accepting. Look at how much the death of Mary affected John? He went off the rails for basically the remainder of his life, never getting over his grief, taking that pain out on everyone and everything around him. Both Kevin and his mom were just a little too calm and a little too understanding for my to buy into that part of the story line.
[quote name=”debbab”]Dean was watching Unforgiven last episode. I thought it was the Clint Eastwood movie, but in season 6 there is an episode with the same title in which Sam seeks redemption for the year he did some awful things when he had no soul. Coincidence?[/quote]
Oooooh, nice catch, I hadn’t noticed that. No, I doubt that’s a coincidence at all. Show has always loved throwing in these revealing little tidbits.
[quote]Dean was watching Unforgiven last episode. I thought it was the Clint Eastwood movie, but in season 6 there is an episode with the same title in which Sam seeks redemption for the year he did some awful things when he had no soul. Coincidence?[/quote]
Oooooh, nice catch, I hadn’t noticed that. No, I doubt that’s a coincidence at all. Show has always loved throwing in these revealing little tidbits.
[quote name=”debbab”]Noticed that Dean is not sleeping. He usually requires 4 hours of sleep every once and a while. The last time a Winchester did not sleep it was Sam and he had an issue with his soul. Now Dean? Has the Mark of Cain/ Association with Crowley tainted his soul? He says he is tight with Crowley and I don’t think he was being that sarcastic. Dean was watching Unforgiven last episode. I thought it was the Clint Eastwood movie, but in season 6 there is an episode with the same title in which Sam seeks redemption for the year he did some awful things when he had no soul. Coincidence?
Criticize Sam for being cold to Dean if you must but- he still has heart/soul when he deals with other such as Martiza or Mrs. Tran and it is evident he feels. He feels for himself- which is okay if you view Sam as a molestation victim. It would be unrealistic for him to come through the ordeal without feeling broken or looking at the bystander who let it happen. So I think there is a POV from Sam, it is not in words. As to Dean’s airing of his self degradation- well that is Dean’s go to. He screwed up and admits it but is unable to change his approach. He has difficulty changing his approach. It cost him Lisa and Ben. Now Sam. The writers are not done with us yet. I found myself thinking that Kevin is not vengeful so it was a nice addition to the character and finally I liked Mrs. Tran. She would make a good “bobby” answering phones/giving motherly advice to hunters, now that she is truly a fierce killer of demons.[/quote]
What cost Dean Lisa and Ben was Dean going to say good bye to Lisa when he got vamped by Souless standing there watching so he could get a read on where alpha vamp was; Dean went to lisa to say good bye because he figured samuel would kill him and that is what he wanted since Sam wouldn’t do it. So souless is part of the blame for no lisa and ben. Can’t put that all on Dean. Dean went to Lisa and Ben because sam told him to and he did it was Lisa’s best year but Dean never could adjust because he was turning into his father and worrying something was going to come and get them. And the fact that Bobby and Sam thought why tell Dean that Sam is alive. Reason Cass got Sam out of the cage was for him to get Dean back into hunting but minute Sam left Dean and never returned so at that time Cass did not realize he got sam out without his soul. So if you go to Lisa and Ben and why Dean is not with them count souless as a big part of why that went wrong. Minute Souless also got together with Dean after year Sam wanted to hunt with Dean and Dean couldn’t abaddon Lisa and Ben for fear that something would come and get them. I think the reason that we keep watching Dean when he goes to room or we look at him as he gets darker is because we are suppost to see the changes the mark is having on him. sam is not noticing because Sam goes to his room. But you can tell the changes in Dean granted he is not staying in his room he decorated. I think and sticking with this giving Sam his space so they must have alot of men of letters bedrooms and he picked one that isolates him farther from Sam. And not decorated but I think yes they are making Sam look bad but I think its also lets watch as Dean is changing either getting darker or mark having effect on him. I like some of the other catches you got. Just Lisa and Ben we will say souless had alot to do with the downfall of that relationship.
[quote]Noticed that Dean is not sleeping. He usually requires 4 hours of sleep every once and a while. The last time a Winchester did not sleep it was Sam and he had an issue with his soul. Now Dean? Has the Mark of Cain/ Association with Crowley tainted his soul? He says he is tight with Crowley and I don’t think he was being that sarcastic. Dean was watching Unforgiven last episode. I thought it was the Clint Eastwood movie, but in season 6 there is an episode with the same title in which Sam seeks redemption for the year he did some awful things when he had no soul. Coincidence?
Criticize Sam for being cold to Dean if you must but- he still has heart/soul when he deals with other such as Martiza or Mrs. Tran and it is evident he feels. He feels for himself- which is okay if you view Sam as a molestation victim. It would be unrealistic for him to come through the ordeal without feeling broken or looking at the bystander who let it happen. So I think there is a POV from Sam, it is not in words. As to Dean’s airing of his self degradation- well that is Dean’s go to. He screwed up and admits it but is unable to change his approach. He has difficulty changing his approach. It cost him Lisa and Ben. Now Sam. The writers are not done with us yet. I found myself thinking that Kevin is not vengeful so it was a nice addition to the character and finally I liked Mrs. Tran. She would make a good “bobby” answering phones/giving motherly advice to hunters, now that she is truly a fierce killer of demons.[/quote]
What cost Dean Lisa and Ben was Dean going to say good bye to Lisa when he got vamped by Souless standing there watching so he could get a read on where alpha vamp was; Dean went to lisa to say good bye because he figured samuel would kill him and that is what he wanted since Sam wouldn’t do it. So souless is part of the blame for no lisa and ben. Can’t put that all on Dean. Dean went to Lisa and Ben because sam told him to and he did it was Lisa’s best year but Dean never could adjust because he was turning into his father and worrying something was going to come and get them. And the fact that Bobby and Sam thought why tell Dean that Sam is alive. Reason Cass got Sam out of the cage was for him to get Dean back into hunting but minute Sam left Dean and never returned so at that time Cass did not realize he got sam out without his soul. So if you go to Lisa and Ben and why Dean is not with them count souless as a big part of why that went wrong. Minute Souless also got together with Dean after year Sam wanted to hunt with Dean and Dean couldn’t abaddon Lisa and Ben for fear that something would come and get them. I think the reason that we keep watching Dean when he goes to room or we look at him as he gets darker is because we are suppost to see the changes the mark is having on him. sam is not noticing because Sam goes to his room. But you can tell the changes in Dean granted he is not staying in his room he decorated. I think and sticking with this giving Sam his space so they must have alot of men of letters bedrooms and he picked one that isolates him farther from Sam. And not decorated but I think yes they are making Sam look bad but I think its also lets watch as Dean is changing either getting darker or mark having effect on him. I like some of the other catches you got. Just Lisa and Ben we will say souless had alot to do with the downfall of that relationship.
[quote name=”percysowner”]Sounds good, great way to absolve Dean even if he didn’t do it for that reason. I mean people are clearing Dean of Kevin’s death because he would have died anyway, but now are using this to absolve Dean because Sam would have remained a ghost. This all SOUNDS good, but in Slumber Party Charlie WENT TO HEAVEN. She described being in the memory of Christmas with her parents. She didn’t describe being caught in “the veil”, she described heaven. So when Charlie died heaven was still open for business. Sam would have died before Charlie came to the bunker, so he would have made it to heaven all on his own.
I may not be thrilled with the lack of attention to continuity, but in this case I’m good.[/quote]
No, Charlie never said she went to Heaven, She said that she had a dream of a memory of her with her parents. Dorothy is the one who said it was Heaven, but that was only her assumption. We don’t actually know what happened to Charlie, we only know that when she came back to life she remembered a memory of a past Christmas. Other things could have happened to her that she did not remember.
However we DO know that Kevin stated:
“Everyone who’s died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil, waiting. And it’s bad in here.”
That is canon.
[quote]Sounds good, great way to absolve Dean even if he didn’t do it for that reason. I mean people are clearing Dean of Kevin’s death because he would have died anyway, but now are using this to absolve Dean because Sam would have remained a ghost. This all SOUNDS good, but in Slumber Party Charlie WENT TO HEAVEN. She described being in the memory of Christmas with her parents. She didn’t describe being caught in “the veil”, she described heaven. So when Charlie died heaven was still open for business. Sam would have died before Charlie came to the bunker, so he would have made it to heaven all on his own.
I may not be thrilled with the lack of attention to continuity, but in this case I’m good.[/quote]
No, Charlie never said she went to Heaven, She said that she had a dream of a memory of her with her parents. Dorothy is the one who said it was Heaven, but that was only her assumption. We don’t actually know what happened to Charlie, we only know that when she came back to life she remembered a memory of a past Christmas. Other things could have happened to her that she did not remember.
However we DO know that Kevin stated:
“Everyone who’s died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil, waiting. And it’s bad in here.”
That is canon.
Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.
Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.
[quote name=”percysowner”]Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.[/quote]
I don’t think that Dean is looking for hero worship for Sam being alive. I think no matter what Dean would have done whatever he had to make sure sam lived. But had sam completed the trials i think it still would have been chaos and I don’t see if Sam died Dean caring if angels roamed the earth or whatever happend to hell; he would be morning sam being dead. I think like Jensen said he would get on motorcycle give impala away and just ride and not suer how long dean would live after that. But Sam is alive and once they get over this they hopefully fight together to put the angels in heaven wonder if the mark will help at all since mark of lucifer and he was an angel.
[quote]Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.[/quote]
I don’t think that Dean is looking for hero worship for Sam being alive. I think no matter what Dean would have done whatever he had to make sure sam lived. But had sam completed the trials i think it still would have been chaos and I don’t see if Sam died Dean caring if angels roamed the earth or whatever happend to hell; he would be morning sam being dead. I think like Jensen said he would get on motorcycle give impala away and just ride and not suer how long dean would live after that. But Sam is alive and once they get over this they hopefully fight together to put the angels in heaven wonder if the mark will help at all since mark of lucifer and he was an angel.
[quote name=”percysowner”]Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.[/quote]
No, the most likely suggestion IMO is that the show is telling us in canon via Kevin (who was a prophet and a hunter and who was fully capable of finding out this information) that “everyone who’s died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil.” The angels fell when Sam and Dean were outside the church in last season’s finale. So, based on canon stated in this episode, everyone who has died since that moment are stuck inside the veil.
Dean was faced with a choice: save Sam’s life or let him die. Dean should not have fought to save Sam. He should have let Sam die. Hopefully he won’t ever make that mistake again.
[quote]Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.[/quote]
No, the most likely suggestion IMO is that the show is telling us in canon via Kevin (who was a prophet and a hunter and who was fully capable of finding out this information) that “everyone who’s died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil.” The angels fell when Sam and Dean were outside the church in last season’s finale. So, based on canon stated in this episode, everyone who has died since that moment are stuck inside the veil.
Dean was faced with a choice: save Sam’s life or let him die. Dean should not have fought to save Sam. He should have let Sam die. Hopefully he won’t ever make that mistake again.
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”percysowner”]Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.[/quote]
No, the most likely suggestion IMO is that the show is telling us in canon via Kevin (who was a prophet and a hunter and who was fully capable of finding out this information) that “everyone who’s died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil.” The angels fell when Sam and Dean were outside the church in last season’s finale. So, based on canon stated in this episode, everyone who has died since that moment are stuck inside the veil.
Dean was faced with a choice: save Sam’s life or let him die. Dean should not have fought to save Sam. He should have let Sam die. Hopefully he won’t ever make that mistake again.[/quote]
Or, maybe Dean tells Sam – I can save you but you’ll need to be possessed by an angel to be healed, then leave the decision up to Sam and honor his wishes, even if Dean doesn’t agree?
[quote][quote]Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.[/quote]
No, the most likely suggestion IMO is that the show is telling us in canon via Kevin (who was a prophet and a hunter and who was fully capable of finding out this information) that “everyone who’s died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil.” The angels fell when Sam and Dean were outside the church in last season’s finale. So, based on canon stated in this episode, everyone who has died since that moment are stuck inside the veil.
Dean was faced with a choice: save Sam’s life or let him die. Dean should not have fought to save Sam. He should have let Sam die. Hopefully he won’t ever make that mistake again.[/quote]
Or, maybe Dean tells Sam – I can save you but you’ll need to be possessed by an angel to be healed, then leave the decision up to Sam and honor his wishes, even if Dean doesn’t agree?
[quote name=”percysowner”]Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.[/quote]
Agree.
[quote]Yes, heaven is definitely closed now. However we have evidence that it may not have closed immediately after the angels fell. Kevin was getting messages from ghost radio and even he admitted they were less than clear. It is possible that he is right, it is possible that heaven was closed at sometime after the angels fell. The most likely suggestion is when Metatron decided to kill Kevin and prevent any more prophets from appearing. Whatever happened it does NOT make Dean a hero for keeping Sam alive.[/quote]
Agree.
Dean’s speech to Kevin was boring and did not resonate with me.The show runners are going out of their way to show Dean’s POV that it became sappy.
I did not like Barth was killed off without more exploration.
I liked the story of the week and how Sam is treating Dean..If Dean does not even have the decency to apologize trying to mend the relationship is a lost cause.
Dean’s speech to Kevin was boring and did not resonate with me.The show runners are going out of their way to show Dean’s POV that it became sappy.
I did not like Barth was killed off without more exploration.
I liked the story of the week and how Sam is treating Dean..If Dean does not even have the decency to apologize trying to mend the relationship is a lost cause.
[quote name=”anonymousN”]Dean’s speech to Kevin was boring and did not resonate with me.The show runners are going out of their way to show Dean’s POV that it became sappy.
I did not like Barth was killed off without more exploration.
I liked the story of the week and how Sam is treating Dean..If Dean does not even have the decency to apologize trying to mend the relationship is a lost cause.[/quote]
I admit the Kevin, you’re dead, but lets talk about MY feelings. Followed by Kevin, Crowley (who has lied to us several times when it suited him) said your mother was dead, so forget about your mother. After dinging Sam all last season about daring to think Dean was dead when he was actually in Purgatory didn’t do a lot for me either.
[quote]Dean’s speech to Kevin was boring and did not resonate with me.The show runners are going out of their way to show Dean’s POV that it became sappy.
I did not like Barth was killed off without more exploration.
I liked the story of the week and how Sam is treating Dean..If Dean does not even have the decency to apologize trying to mend the relationship is a lost cause.[/quote]
I admit the Kevin, you’re dead, but lets talk about MY feelings. Followed by Kevin, Crowley (who has lied to us several times when it suited him) said your mother was dead, so forget about your mother. After dinging Sam all last season about daring to think Dean was dead when he was actually in Purgatory didn’t do a lot for me either.
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote name=”anonymousN”]Dean’s speech to Kevin was boring and did not resonate with me.The show runners are going out of their way to show Dean’s POV that it became sappy.
I did not like Barth was killed off without more exploration.
I liked the story of the week and how Sam is treating Dean..If Dean does not even have the decency to apologize trying to mend the relationship is a lost cause.[/quote]
I admit the Kevin, you’re dead, but lets talk about MY feelings. Followed by Kevin, Crowley (who has lied to us several times when it suited him) said your mother was dead, so forget about your mother. After dinging Sam all last season about daring to think Dean was dead when he was actually in Purgatory didn’t do a lot for me either.[/quote]
Agree.Did you notice how they could not even give a scene to Sam who was in the room first who had to leave the room so that Dean can have that monologue.
[quote][quote]Dean’s speech to Kevin was boring and did not resonate with me.The show runners are going out of their way to show Dean’s POV that it became sappy.
I did not like Barth was killed off without more exploration.
I liked the story of the week and how Sam is treating Dean..If Dean does not even have the decency to apologize trying to mend the relationship is a lost cause.[/quote]
I admit the Kevin, you’re dead, but lets talk about MY feelings. Followed by Kevin, Crowley (who has lied to us several times when it suited him) said your mother was dead, so forget about your mother. After dinging Sam all last season about daring to think Dean was dead when he was actually in Purgatory didn’t do a lot for me either.[/quote]
Agree.Did you notice how they could not even give a scene to Sam who was in the room first who had to leave the room so that Dean can have that monologue.
e, i totally agree with you. i liked the ep alot, but kevin & mrs tran felt totally off to me. i haven’t felt that off put by an ep since amelia was introduced in s8 & we all thought she might have been a figment of sam’s fractured mind. after second rewatch, i started to wonder if this ep actually happened. i mean the clothes alone were weird. i was waiting for someone to wake up at the end as it was all just a dream. 😀
kevin told sam and dean that just cuz they couldnt see him that didn’t mean he couldn’t see them. so wouldn’t that lead one to believe that if kevin heard them fighting he would’ve heard the conversation in the purge, where dean openly admitted to sam that even with what he knows now, he still would do the same thing all over again. kevin is ok with the fact that dean would be willing to let him die not only once, but twice? i mean the first time, ok dean didn’t see it coming but a second time? kevin is ok with that? i call bull s*** on that. and tiger mommy tran had practically no negative reaction to her son’s death as a result of the winchesters? really a woman who sold her soul at auction for her son? not buying it for a ny minute.
kevin letting sam off the hook is understandable. but kevin not angry at dean for his willingness to repeat the same mistake and sacrifice him, that doesn’t ring true at all. last i heard, kevin was a prophet not a saint. as i said, i think kevin and momma tran ended up doing more harm than good with dean.
it’s only enabling his very dangerous habit. i’m not talking about saving sam, i’m referring to his habit of playing God. dean was scared that if sam used his demon powers, even though he was using it for good, he feared sam would go dark. in yellow fever his biggest fear was that sam wanted to go dark. i don’t know if you’ve ever noticed, but ever since cas has arrived dean has made him his own private miracle worker. dean literally has an angel in his pocket and he has used cas to his advantage. when cas couldn’t help, dean sought out other supernatural means. ever since sam died the first time, dean has used supernatural methods to solve his problems. how is that any better than sam having used his demon powers to send demons to hell? dean has used such methods so often, it’s his go to solution. more often than not, the end result has ended in pain, hurting, anger and even death.
i don’t think sam is angry at the save. i think sam is angry at the method dean used to save him. the methods dean uses to save sam always end up having dire consequences. someone always ends up getting hurt at sam’s expense and he can’t live with that so easily. sam has always held onto all his pain much like dean likes to hold on to his guilt. i think what’s getting to sam is that dean doesn’t get that sam doesn’t want to live if he’s going to end up with blood on his hands. dean also doesn’t get that sam feels violated…again sam had lost control of his own body. his own decisions. dean took that from him and then gad took that from him. sam lost control of his own life once again and he didn’t even know it. sam trusted dean and he used that trust to take advantage of him. that, dean has never done before. it may very well be what hurts sam the most. still, dean hasn’t apologized for any of it. he still can’t see where he’s wrong because he’s blinded by the fact that saving sam was the right and only thing to do. and he’s willing to do it all over again. i really think what sam needs from dean right now is acknowledgement that he understands how he saved sam was the wrong thing to do. not saving him…but how he saved him. i think that would be a good start.
i have given, based on my personal knowledge of sam a lot of i think, i believe and i feel. you’re right, there isn’t much pov when it comes to sam winchester. but i think it feels very much like the same formula carver followed last season. i don’t think there is an absence of sam’s pov but i do think sam’s pov is more subtle. it’s in his expressions and his actions. he gives little clues but he never gets to full on open up and say what’s going on in his head. unfortunately, sam being the introvert he is, that is standard procedure. it’s been like that since show began. over the years i’d like to think sam is an easier read than in the past. i think it’s all leading up to his breakdown, much like last season, only i don’t think we’ll have to wait til the finale. it’ll happen sooner. he’ll break, dean will break and we will finally get that winchester chick flick moment we’ve all been waiting for for years…they talk out their feelings, they deal with what’s wrong, there’s change, acceptance, some pie and beer and we can all finally move on to a new winchester brother relationship based on mutual trust, understanding and some self worth for both boys with a side order of winchester love and a case of dr pepper. 😀
e, i totally agree with you. i liked the ep alot, but kevin & mrs tran felt totally off to me. i haven’t felt that off put by an ep since amelia was introduced in s8 & we all thought she might have been a figment of sam’s fractured mind. after second rewatch, i started to wonder if this ep actually happened. i mean the clothes alone were weird. i was waiting for someone to wake up at the end as it was all just a dream. 😀
kevin told sam and dean that just cuz they couldnt see him that didn’t mean he couldn’t see them. so wouldn’t that lead one to believe that if kevin heard them fighting he would’ve heard the conversation in the purge, where dean openly admitted to sam that even with what he knows now, he still would do the same thing all over again. kevin is ok with the fact that dean would be willing to let him die not only once, but twice? i mean the first time, ok dean didn’t see it coming but a second time? kevin is ok with that? i call bull s*** on that. and tiger mommy tran had practically no negative reaction to her son’s death as a result of the winchesters? really a woman who sold her soul at auction for her son? not buying it for a ny minute.
kevin letting sam off the hook is understandable. but kevin not angry at dean for his willingness to repeat the same mistake and sacrifice him, that doesn’t ring true at all. last i heard, kevin was a prophet not a saint. as i said, i think kevin and momma tran ended up doing more harm than good with dean.
it’s only enabling his very dangerous habit. i’m not talking about saving sam, i’m referring to his habit of playing God. dean was scared that if sam used his demon powers, even though he was using it for good, he feared sam would go dark. in yellow fever his biggest fear was that sam wanted to go dark. i don’t know if you’ve ever noticed, but ever since cas has arrived dean has made him his own private miracle worker. dean literally has an angel in his pocket and he has used cas to his advantage. when cas couldn’t help, dean sought out other supernatural means. ever since sam died the first time, dean has used supernatural methods to solve his problems. how is that any better than sam having used his demon powers to send demons to hell? dean has used such methods so often, it’s his go to solution. more often than not, the end result has ended in pain, hurting, anger and even death.
i don’t think sam is angry at the save. i think sam is angry at the method dean used to save him. the methods dean uses to save sam always end up having dire consequences. someone always ends up getting hurt at sam’s expense and he can’t live with that so easily. sam has always held onto all his pain much like dean likes to hold on to his guilt. i think what’s getting to sam is that dean doesn’t get that sam doesn’t want to live if he’s going to end up with blood on his hands. dean also doesn’t get that sam feels violated…again sam had lost control of his own body. his own decisions. dean took that from him and then gad took that from him. sam lost control of his own life once again and he didn’t even know it. sam trusted dean and he used that trust to take advantage of him. that, dean has never done before. it may very well be what hurts sam the most. still, dean hasn’t apologized for any of it. he still can’t see where he’s wrong because he’s blinded by the fact that saving sam was the right and only thing to do. and he’s willing to do it all over again. i really think what sam needs from dean right now is acknowledgement that he understands how he saved sam was the wrong thing to do. not saving him…but how he saved him. i think that would be a good start.
i have given, based on my personal knowledge of sam a lot of i think, i believe and i feel. you’re right, there isn’t much pov when it comes to sam winchester. but i think it feels very much like the same formula carver followed last season. i don’t think there is an absence of sam’s pov but i do think sam’s pov is more subtle. it’s in his expressions and his actions. he gives little clues but he never gets to full on open up and say what’s going on in his head. unfortunately, sam being the introvert he is, that is standard procedure. it’s been like that since show began. over the years i’d like to think sam is an easier read than in the past. i think it’s all leading up to his breakdown, much like last season, only i don’t think we’ll have to wait til the finale. it’ll happen sooner. he’ll break, dean will break and we will finally get that winchester chick flick moment we’ve all been waiting for for years…they talk out their feelings, they deal with what’s wrong, there’s change, acceptance, some pie and beer and we can all finally move on to a new winchester brother relationship based on mutual trust, understanding and some self worth for both boys with a side order of winchester love and a case of dr pepper. 😀
[quote name=”E”]Ahem – Please excuse the following rant:
In a recent article on this site it was noted that not only is Sam suffering from a lack of POV, but that Dean is suffering from a saturation of POV. I can’t remember who said that, (sorry, because you are dead on) but boy do I agree! We’ve all discussed Sam’s lack of POV and revealing character details ad nauseam on this site. But now, it’s time to discuss Dean’s over saturation because quite frankly it’s as big a problem as Sam’s lack of POV and IMO becoming equally as damaging to his character. I really, really felt that in this episode especially. I love Dean, I really do.. but man, I wanted to kick him in the family jewels this episode; I am sick to death of the never ending Dean Winchester guilt trip. How many times have we seen it this season 😳 ? I don’t want to hear Dean flagellate himself any more, especially when he flat out refuses to change his behavior. He’s stagnating as a character IMO, and I find it irritating in the extreme; to me there is nothing more boring in a drama than a character who never changes, who never grows despite multiple life changing events. In addition, the PTB have felt compelled (for reasons that I can’t fathom) to inundate us at every turn with Dean’s feelings, motives, responses, sacrifices and his never ending stream of guilt, until anvils are falling from the sky. There is zero mystery to anything the man does and the tedious repetition makes me want to gouge my eyes out from the sheer repetitiveness of it. I was actually peeved at Dean pretty much this whole episode because of how incredibly stagnated he is. I don’t feel like Dean has earned the right to have a pity party over Kevin when, by his own admission, he’d do it all over again. The hypocrisy of that POV makes my stomach turn. Sam has always been underwritten, but Dean is now being OVER written; do you notice that we NEVER speculate about ANYTHING Dean does EVER? I know that we have to piece together the slim little bits and pieces we are given to create a Sam that makes sense, but at least there’s something interesting about discussing his motives and speculating about his mind set. But Dean… we have been spoon fed every last shred about him; there’s no mystery, no contradiction, nothing to consider or puzzle. Its all the SAME; and quite frankly, boring and as repetitive as dirt. I really hope that the MoC sends Dean off the rails in a way that makes him more of an enigma.. that makes him act out of character or grow secretive or makes us wonder what the f*** he’s up to; because this repetitive, self pitying, unchanging person is NOT INTERESTING.
Sorry, rant over. :oops:[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more E! Nice rant!
Last season it seemed like the weird storyline had to be leading to a twist and it wasn’t. I find I no longer believe that there is more to this storyline than that we are supposed to be siding with Dean because feelings! family! love! sad childhood! plays a dog well! says ‘Sammy’ a lot! hugs! OPT! POV! Cas says so! Charlie says so! Garth says so! Kevin says so! (Dean can do all of this on his own, he doesn’t need Sam there any more except the hugs would look weird if it were just him….)
It used to be that SPN was a show that women loved because it was about men who had a believable emotional core and were forced to show it due to the impossible circumstances of their lives. Sera Gamble, Kripke, Rayelle Tucker, Ben Edlund etc wrote real stories for 2 characters that we could believe in and root for (Carver Edlund was a terrible writer but he still wrote from the POV of 2 brothers). The emotion came out of the plot and Jared and Jensen sold it, and it was amazing and awesome. Dean sitting on the Impala and talking about hell, Sam standing in the motel room explaining to Dean exactly what he means to him. And now it appears to be a show written by men about this one tough guy with a soft heart and the problems his life brings him because nobody is as trustworthy as he thinks they should be.The writers actually don’t seem to know what makes these characters tick but THINK that what women want is tears and hugs (And a few of them (the writers) appear to be trying to sell their pilot ideas for ‘octocobra’)
I am still not entirely giving up hope on this story, It seems like there has to be a purpose – based on something resembling a moral code – to all this, but it seemed that way last season and there wasn’t. And I am finding it increasingly hard to believe that Jeremy Carver has a 38 (and counting) episode arc that will make everything that has gone before make sense.
[quote]Ahem – Please excuse the following rant:
In a recent article on this site it was noted that not only is Sam suffering from a lack of POV, but that Dean is suffering from a saturation of POV. I can’t remember who said that, (sorry, because you are dead on) but boy do I agree! We’ve all discussed Sam’s lack of POV and revealing character details ad nauseam on this site. But now, it’s time to discuss Dean’s over saturation because quite frankly it’s as big a problem as Sam’s lack of POV and IMO becoming equally as damaging to his character. I really, really felt that in this episode especially. I love Dean, I really do.. but man, I wanted to kick him in the family jewels this episode; I am sick to death of the never ending Dean Winchester guilt trip. How many times have we seen it this season 😳 ? I don’t want to hear Dean flagellate himself any more, especially when he flat out refuses to change his behavior. He’s stagnating as a character IMO, and I find it irritating in the extreme; to me there is nothing more boring in a drama than a character who never changes, who never grows despite multiple life changing events. In addition, the PTB have felt compelled (for reasons that I can’t fathom) to inundate us at every turn with Dean’s feelings, motives, responses, sacrifices and his never ending stream of guilt, until anvils are falling from the sky. There is zero mystery to anything the man does and the tedious repetition makes me want to gouge my eyes out from the sheer repetitiveness of it. I was actually peeved at Dean pretty much this whole episode because of how incredibly stagnated he is. I don’t feel like Dean has earned the right to have a pity party over Kevin when, by his own admission, he’d do it all over again. The hypocrisy of that POV makes my stomach turn. Sam has always been underwritten, but Dean is now being OVER written; do you notice that we NEVER speculate about ANYTHING Dean does EVER? I know that we have to piece together the slim little bits and pieces we are given to create a Sam that makes sense, but at least there’s something interesting about discussing his motives and speculating about his mind set. But Dean… we have been spoon fed every last shred about him; there’s no mystery, no contradiction, nothing to consider or puzzle. Its all the SAME; and quite frankly, boring and as repetitive as dirt. I really hope that the MoC sends Dean off the rails in a way that makes him more of an enigma.. that makes him act out of character or grow secretive or makes us wonder what the f*** he’s up to; because this repetitive, self pitying, unchanging person is NOT INTERESTING.
Sorry, rant over. :oops:[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more E! Nice rant!
Last season it seemed like the weird storyline had to be leading to a twist and it wasn’t. I find I no longer believe that there is more to this storyline than that we are supposed to be siding with Dean because feelings! family! love! sad childhood! plays a dog well! says ‘Sammy’ a lot! hugs! OPT! POV! Cas says so! Charlie says so! Garth says so! Kevin says so! (Dean can do all of this on his own, he doesn’t need Sam there any more except the hugs would look weird if it were just him….)
It used to be that SPN was a show that women loved because it was about men who had a believable emotional core and were forced to show it due to the impossible circumstances of their lives. Sera Gamble, Kripke, Rayelle Tucker, Ben Edlund etc wrote real stories for 2 characters that we could believe in and root for (Carver Edlund was a terrible writer but he still wrote from the POV of 2 brothers). The emotion came out of the plot and Jared and Jensen sold it, and it was amazing and awesome. Dean sitting on the Impala and talking about hell, Sam standing in the motel room explaining to Dean exactly what he means to him. And now it appears to be a show written by men about this one tough guy with a soft heart and the problems his life brings him because nobody is as trustworthy as he thinks they should be.The writers actually don’t seem to know what makes these characters tick but THINK that what women want is tears and hugs (And a few of them (the writers) appear to be trying to sell their pilot ideas for ‘octocobra’)
I am still not entirely giving up hope on this story, It seems like there has to be a purpose – based on something resembling a moral code – to all this, but it seemed that way last season and there wasn’t. And I am finding it increasingly hard to believe that Jeremy Carver has a 38 (and counting) episode arc that will make everything that has gone before make sense.
I do think that IF this is all going to play out as in the end proving that only Dean’s way of loving someone and being a good brother is the ‘right’ way then they could at least have given Sam ONE freaking episode where it could be shown (to the people who vehemently dislike his character for very little reason) that he has legitimate reason to be mad and that someone in his existence is on his side in all this. This shouldn’t even be a ‘well they both do it’ argument FFS, Sam was assaulted in every possible way and at the very least his brother could apologize for it all going wrong because he didn’t think it through and because (after the original emergency) all along the line he has made the wrong decision about what to do next.
The writers haven’t written that at all, they have actively undermined any sympathy for Sam both while he was possessed and now that he is angry and I am not at all convinced that they feel there is any need to allow him sympathy or his point of view to be validated or that they have even noticed that they haven’t validated it.
I do think that IF this is all going to play out as in the end proving that only Dean’s way of loving someone and being a good brother is the ‘right’ way then they could at least have given Sam ONE freaking episode where it could be shown (to the people who vehemently dislike his character for very little reason) that he has legitimate reason to be mad and that someone in his existence is on his side in all this. This shouldn’t even be a ‘well they both do it’ argument FFS, Sam was assaulted in every possible way and at the very least his brother could apologize for it all going wrong because he didn’t think it through and because (after the original emergency) all along the line he has made the wrong decision about what to do next.
The writers haven’t written that at all, they have actively undermined any sympathy for Sam both while he was possessed and now that he is angry and I am not at all convinced that they feel there is any need to allow him sympathy or his point of view to be validated or that they have even noticed that they haven’t validated it.
Yes, very nice rant [b]E[/b]. I totally agree with you on every word.
[quote]I do think that IF this is all going to play out as in the end proving that only Dean’s way of loving someone and being a good brother is the ‘right’ way then they could at least have given Sam ONE freaking episode where it could be shown (to the people who vehemently dislike his character for very little reason) that he has legitimate reason to be mad and that someone in his existence is on his side in all this. This shouldn’t even be a ‘well they both do it’ argument FFS, Sam was assaulted in every possible way and at the very least his brother could apologize for it all going wrong because he didn’t think it through and because (after the original emergency) all along the line he has made the wrong decision about what to do next. The writers haven’t written that at all, they have actively undermined any sympathy for Sam both while he was possessed and now that he is angry and I am not at all convinced that they feel there is any need to allow him sympathy or his point of view to be validated or that they have even noticed that they haven’t validated it.[/quote]
I really am baffled as to why the writers have not given at least one episode to Sam instead of just the few minutes chat to Castiel which was more about Castiel than about Sam.
During the Christmas break I was so excited by the prospect of Sam finding out about the possession when the show returned, I was convinced that there would be some wonderful Sam POV/insight ahead. In the earlier cons there had been talk about a Sam crying scene that had been filmed and was coming up after the Christmas break. I do love me some Sam angst so I was getting pretty giddy with excitement.
The lack of Sam POV and the completely unsympathetic way he has been written – to the extent that we have the situation of the victim being the one vilified – certainly took the wind out of my sails. 🙁 I was always a huge fan of Sera Gamble’s writing and nowadays I am missing her writing more than ever.
Yes, very nice rant [b]E[/b]. I totally agree with you on every word.
[quote]I do think that IF this is all going to play out as in the end proving that only Dean’s way of loving someone and being a good brother is the ‘right’ way then they could at least have given Sam ONE freaking episode where it could be shown (to the people who vehemently dislike his character for very little reason) that he has legitimate reason to be mad and that someone in his existence is on his side in all this. This shouldn’t even be a ‘well they both do it’ argument FFS, Sam was assaulted in every possible way and at the very least his brother could apologize for it all going wrong because he didn’t think it through and because (after the original emergency) all along the line he has made the wrong decision about what to do next. The writers haven’t written that at all, they have actively undermined any sympathy for Sam both while he was possessed and now that he is angry and I am not at all convinced that they feel there is any need to allow him sympathy or his point of view to be validated or that they have even noticed that they haven’t validated it.[/quote]
I really am baffled as to why the writers have not given at least one episode to Sam instead of just the few minutes chat to Castiel which was more about Castiel than about Sam.
During the Christmas break I was so excited by the prospect of Sam finding out about the possession when the show returned, I was convinced that there would be some wonderful Sam POV/insight ahead. In the earlier cons there had been talk about a Sam crying scene that had been filmed and was coming up after the Christmas break. I do love me some Sam angst so I was getting pretty giddy with excitement.
The lack of Sam POV and the completely unsympathetic way he has been written – to the extent that we have the situation of the victim being the one vilified – certainly took the wind out of my sails. 🙁 I was always a huge fan of Sera Gamble’s writing and nowadays I am missing her writing more than ever.
[quote name=”E”] I am sick to death of the never ending Dean Winchester guilt trip… the PTB have felt compelled (for reasons that I can’t fathom) to inundate us at every turn with Dean’s feelings, motives, responses, sacrifices and his never ending stream of guilt, until anvils are falling from the sky… I don’t feel like Dean has earned the right to have a pity party over Kevin when, by his own admission, he’d do it all over again…
I really hope that the MoC sends Dean off the rails in a way that makes him more of an enigma.. that makes him act out of character or grow secretive or makes us wonder what the f*** he’s up to; because this repetitive, self pitying, unchanging person is NOT INTERESTING.
Sorry, rant over. :oops:[/quote]
Couldn’t agree more. At least in Season 4 when Sam was breaking bad he was BADASS too. And Soulless Sam was fun to watch too even if he wasn’t terribly nice 😀 This whiny Dean is boring and annoying and no fun to watch. I used to like Dean but I’m rapidly going off him for the reasons you state.
(BTW I’m also going off Sam because he’s barely even a character any more – so it’s a Carver issue not a Sam v Dean issue).
I may be female but I DO NOT like this constant barrage of manpain. I WANT action! I WANT badass Sam’n’Dean! If I wanted emotional drama I’d go watch a show that specialised in it and did it better. If they insist on pandering to what they think their female audience want, then they could make the boys take their shirts off more instead!
[quote] I am sick to death of the never ending Dean Winchester guilt trip… the PTB have felt compelled (for reasons that I can’t fathom) to inundate us at every turn with Dean’s feelings, motives, responses, sacrifices and his never ending stream of guilt, until anvils are falling from the sky… I don’t feel like Dean has earned the right to have a pity party over Kevin when, by his own admission, he’d do it all over again…
I really hope that the MoC sends Dean off the rails in a way that makes him more of an enigma.. that makes him act out of character or grow secretive or makes us wonder what the f*** he’s up to; because this repetitive, self pitying, unchanging person is NOT INTERESTING.
Sorry, rant over. :oops:[/quote]
Couldn’t agree more. At least in Season 4 when Sam was breaking bad he was BADASS too. And Soulless Sam was fun to watch too even if he wasn’t terribly nice 😀 This whiny Dean is boring and annoying and no fun to watch. I used to like Dean but I’m rapidly going off him for the reasons you state.
(BTW I’m also going off Sam because he’s barely even a character any more – so it’s a Carver issue not a Sam v Dean issue).
I may be female but I DO NOT like this constant barrage of manpain. I WANT action! I WANT badass Sam’n’Dean! If I wanted emotional drama I’d go watch a show that specialised in it and did it better. If they insist on pandering to what they think their female audience want, then they could make the boys take their shirts off more instead!
Also E, I agree on the MOC. Let’s have Dean go darkside and scary. That’s so much more fun than ‘oh, I’m poison, woe is me!’. Our flawed and screwed-up boys walking the line between good and bad is the reason I fell for SPN in the first place. And probably the reason I’m a Sam girl, since Jared obviously has a wonderful time playing dark!Sam. The last thing I want is a true-blue hero with no flaws. That’s SO 1950s.
Also E, I agree on the MOC. Let’s have Dean go darkside and scary. That’s so much more fun than ‘oh, I’m poison, woe is me!’. Our flawed and screwed-up boys walking the line between good and bad is the reason I fell for SPN in the first place. And probably the reason I’m a Sam girl, since Jared obviously has a wonderful time playing dark!Sam. The last thing I want is a true-blue hero with no flaws. That’s SO 1950s.