Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×13 “The Purge”
(This week, this is a joint Let’s Speculate! An episode summary from Bookdal, and an analysis by Alice)
Warning: If you have not seen tonight’s episode, “The Purge,” then beware spoilers ahead!
Summary: This episode opens with a hot dog eating contest and ends with a emotional meltdown that will cause massive overeating of comfort food.
Basic premise of the episode is a call back to season 2/3 MOTW set up. The monster is a pishtaco, which is a Peruvian fat sucker. The episode is humorous and features a Sam in Yoga gear and a Dean in a hairnet. The case revolves around a health spa that turns out to be the capitalist endeavor of a man and his pishtaco wife, who wanted to find a way for her to live among humans without killing them. Since she sucks fat, they came up with the health spa idea. The husband is killed by the not fully integrated brother, Allonso. Come to find out, he was responsible for the hotdog eater and another fat sucking victim.
The emotional timbre of the episode revolved around Sam’s honesty with Dean about their broken relationship. The episode ends with Sam convincing Dean not to kill the pishtaco, but instead send her back to Peru. The final five minutes mimics last week’s episode in Sam confronting Dean with his selfishness about keeping Sam alive. He calls Dean out as not wanting to be lonely and when Dean asks Sam if he’d do the same thing, which we see Dean assumes Sam would do the same thing, Sam denies it and says no, Dean, he wouldn’t choose to save Dean in those circumstances.
Speculation By Alice
The Purge – aka, The Truth Hurts. It’s dead on, but that doesn’t make it hurt less.
We’ve seen Sam and Dean go through a lot in nine years. Every f***ing horror imaginable. They’ve always been there for one another through thick and thin. So as we watch the brotherly relationship implode, one has to ask, “What the Hell is happening here?” I’ll tell you what. Life.
People change, perspectives change, events shape who and what you are. It’s clear that the events from the past few seasons, and even the last season have affected these brothers in profoundly different ways. Sam has always been the sensible one. He’s always had bursts of practicality. It’s kept him grounded in the most insane of situations. Sure, in season four he tried to ground his rationale through demon blood addiction, but that’s another topic for another day.
Sam’s words in the last few weeks to Dean have been cryptic at best, leaving us to wonder where Sam was going. Sam had hoped that Dean would figure it out, but Dean has turned to his normal, self destructive ways. Drinking, staying up all night watching movies, etc. Most of this episode was spent snipping at each other with subtle truths and snide comments, neither of them getting what the other was saying. The way they were going, the hard truth had to come out eventually. It was already seeping through hurtful comments. It was brutal, and I haven’t felt that broken about a conversation since Dean’s honesty at the end of “When The Levee Breaks.” The truth more than hurts. It’s freaking killing us.
It’s been brought up many times by people in the last few weeks, but we all remember how Sam’s actions in season four decimated Dean’s trust of his brother. The brothers co-existed for the sake of the job, but the feelings were hard and the brotherhood was broken. It took a very long time to recover, but eventually they found they way back to one another and stopped the apocalypse.
I can do all sorts of comparisons as to how now relates to then, but I won’t. These are different circumstances. Far different circumstances. Look what’s happened in that time. Stopping the apocalypse at a great personal cost, Dean having a failed chance at a normal life, Sam coming back soulless and then broken with a wall in his head that led to psychosis. Dean goes to Purgatory for a year and Sam has a year of that normal life, then the trials happen. Sam gets sick, angels fall, and Sam decides it’s time to die but Dean takes that choice away from him with angel possession. The deception continues until there’s another great personal cost, Kevin.
Sam knows why Dean does this. Because it all goes back to a 4 year old that grabbed onto his baby brother, ran out of a burning house and wouldn’t let go. That sticks for life, no matter what happens. Is it fear of being alone? Yes. Is that a bad thing, well, it depends on the cost. The cost of keeping Sam alive has cost a lot of others misfortune. It’s something that was demonstrated and forewarned all the way back in “Appointment In Samarra” when Dean was death for a day. There are consequences when you mess with the natural order. Innocents that were not meant to suffer do. Yet when it comes to Sam, Dean goes back to that day of the fire. All bets are off.
However, Sam delivered a blow that Dean never saw coming, and that’s the final truth that he couldn’t understand. If the situations were reversed, Sam would not do the same thing that Dean did. He would have let Dean go. This doesn’t shock me at all. Of course Sam wouldn’t. It’s why he went on and lived his live during that year Dean was in Purgatory rather than look for Dean. It was Dean’s time. Sam tried to explain his reasoning, but Dean wouldn’t listen. It was a point of contention that was only addressed by an emotionally exhausted and very sick Sam in that church in “Sacrifice.” Sam was upset that he kept letting his brother down. But he never said he regretted what he did.
There’s the disconnect between the brothers that leaves us where we are today. Dean perceives Sam was sorry but he wasn’t. Sam perceived Dean would respect his wishes from that point forward but he didn’t. They are both learning the hard way that neither understand the other the way they think. Sam at this point is realizing that’s got to change.
This week’s Monster of the Week becomes the parallel. Sam sympathizes with Maritza, because she just wanted to have a normal life. She didn’t want anything bad to happen to people, but thanks to her brother her world is shattered. Sam even uses the example with Dean about what would have happened if someone had killed him when possessed by Gadreel. Would he have deserved to die? Dean’s scoff tells Sam he doesn’t think the situations are even remotely close. That left Sam no choice but to tell it straight. It’s the new maturity. They aren’t fist fighting. They’re telling it as it is.
Dean: About what you said the other day.
Sam: I thought it didn’t bother you.
Dean: You know Sam, I saved your hide back there. I saved your hide at that church…in the hospital. I may not think things all the way through but when I do, it’s because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.
Sam: And that is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in and even when you mess up you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad…but you’re not. Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind, we’re no closer to beating this angel thing, please tell me, what is the upside to me being alive?
Dean: Are you kidding me? You and me, fighting the good fight together.
Sam (scoffs): Just once be honest with me, you didn’t save me for me. You did it for you.
Dean: What are you talking about?
Sam: I was ready to die, I was ready. I should have died. But you, you didn’t want to be alone. That’s what this boils down to, you can’t stand the thought of being alone. I’ll give you this much, you are certainly willing do the sacrifice, as long as you’re not the one being hurt.
Dean: Alright, you want to be honest, if the situation was reversed, and I was dying, you’d do the same thing.
Sam (long pause): No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t. (Gets up). I’m heading to bed.
Dean is left behind, gobsmacked and hurt by it all. (As are all of us).
It’s so very hard to watch, but it’s the only way these two can remotely be on the same page again. The trouble is, how will Dean handle this burst of honesty? Will he send offhanded comment’s Sam’s way like he did this week, or will this take him on a self destructive path knowing his brother doesn’t have his back? Will he even want to be in the same room with Sam? Any reaction by Dean will not be inappropriate. This revelation could likely shatter his world. We can only hope if that’s true, Sam will be there to pick him up. After all, Sam did say he wouldn’t have done the same thing if the circumstances were the same. He never said anything about if they were different. He still cares, otherwise he wouldn’t have even had this talk with Dean.
The truth hurts. It’s sad, his heart crushing, it’s unsettling. But it has to be done.
Okay, Let’s Speculate.
(Rules, DO NOT attack anyone for their opinion. This is going to be a very heated topic, so I implore, keep it civil and watch the tempers. NO Sam vs. Dean. That means, no building up one by knocking down the other. Criticism is allowed. Scathing comments are not. Comments that go against those guidelines will be edited.)
All Sam had to say was “I love you.” and it would have left Dean confused but not desolate. I know WHY the writers did it, but I think him failing to say “I love you” is actually not all that realistic.
All Sam had to say was “I love you.” and it would have left Dean confused but not desolate. I know WHY the writers did it, but I think him failing to say “I love you” is actually not all that realistic.
So much truth, but oh so painful. Truth in real life is often painful. I just wish Dean was in a place to hear it. Seems like one of them is usually in a bad place when truth comes out and the other just doesn’t ‘hear’ the same words the other is saying.
I fear where Dean will go from here. He was already drinking in the morning and not sleeping. I hope some theories I’ve read that Sam will come to a point where he has to save Dean will happen. In a different scenario, as you say. Not from a monster, but from himself maybe.
I am sure there will be a LOT of hate out there from this episode. But NOT from me. It hurts like hell and I didn’t know if I wanted to puke at the end because of the grosz stuff in it or because of the ‘talk’. But this show does amazing things. Gut wrenching things that make us cringe because deep down we know it has to happen. And maybe, just maybe we have lived something similar in our own lives. Where a truth was so painful we didn’t want to hear it. Or even think it. It would have been nice to say…., but…’I love you’ but he didn’t.
However he said everything calmly and not out of anger. Wanting to get it out to move forward. From a sad place of realizing they aren’t who they used to be, can’t be after all they’ve experienced. But he’s still there so he obviously WANTS to be there. He’s suffering too. Changes in relationships are hard. Kind of like suffering a loss. A loss of innocence, of what once was, of what could have been and needing to grow up and face the world as an adult. Don’t we all yearn for simpler life and things sometimes.
Well I could go on and on. So many things in my head. Congrats to cast and crew for another great episode in S9. I just hope my heart can take what is still to come.
So much truth, but oh so painful. Truth in real life is often painful. I just wish Dean was in a place to hear it. Seems like one of them is usually in a bad place when truth comes out and the other just doesn’t ‘hear’ the same words the other is saying.
I fear where Dean will go from here. He was already drinking in the morning and not sleeping. I hope some theories I’ve read that Sam will come to a point where he has to save Dean will happen. In a different scenario, as you say. Not from a monster, but from himself maybe.
I am sure there will be a LOT of hate out there from this episode. But NOT from me. It hurts like hell and I didn’t know if I wanted to puke at the end because of the grosz stuff in it or because of the ‘talk’. But this show does amazing things. Gut wrenching things that make us cringe because deep down we know it has to happen. And maybe, just maybe we have lived something similar in our own lives. Where a truth was so painful we didn’t want to hear it. Or even think it. It would have been nice to say…., but…’I love you’ but he didn’t.
However he said everything calmly and not out of anger. Wanting to get it out to move forward. From a sad place of realizing they aren’t who they used to be, can’t be after all they’ve experienced. But he’s still there so he obviously WANTS to be there. He’s suffering too. Changes in relationships are hard. Kind of like suffering a loss. A loss of innocence, of what once was, of what could have been and needing to grow up and face the world as an adult. Don’t we all yearn for simpler life and things sometimes.
Well I could go on and on. So many things in my head. Congrats to cast and crew for another great episode in S9. I just hope my heart can take what is still to come.
I’m sorry. I REALLY want to get on board with the maturity thing..but I just can’t. Not with the route the writers are taking.
Sam not looking for Dean when he was in Purgatory is a very sore subject for me to this day. And I think it was a huge misstep last season for a huge chunk of fandom.
Sam not looking for Dean is not the Sam I know. Yeah, I can believe that Sam did not look because he was lost & broken & felt he had no one to turn to. But I can’t believe he did not look because he simply decided to let Dean go. Sam has lost Dean many times – in the time traveling episode w/ Jody, or even just on a hunt like tonight when Dean called Sam all doped up – and he has ALWAYS looked. I’m not saying Sam should have turned over heaven & earth to find and save Dean..but he shouldn’t have just given up on Dean by not putting in an ounce of effort. Sure, characters can change, but I need to still be able to recognize them, and not only that but understand why the characters are changing. And I don’t recognize Sam & the writers are not giving us any real insight into his thoughts & feelings so I can’t understand him the way I so badly want to.
To be honest, Sam seemed like a dick tonight. Sam has every right in the world to be mad at Dean, I’m not saying he doesn’t. But he was written so callously & cold-hearted. It didn’t make me want to root for this new definition of brotherhood.
I need for Sam & Dean to always be Sam & Dean – not matter the season. And in my opinion, the core of SPN is Sam & Dean doing anything & everything for each other. It isn’t healthy, but Dean & Sam’s messed up relationship is why SPN packs such an emotional punch. Sam & Dean are in the crazy world, fighting these crazy creatures, and they need each other to be their anchor. And SPN needs Sam & Dean and their relationship to anchor the show.
Bottom line, I don’t want to see Sam & Dean to mature to a point where they can live happily independent of one another. When if Sam dies, Dean cries a little & then moves along to hunt with Cas (or whoever).
I think fixing the broken relationship between the the brothers will be tricky because there is a very thin line between unraveling the brother bond for a better, stronger, healthier bond & unraveling the brother bond to a point where you lose something so, so special (& sacred) to SPN.
I’m sorry. I REALLY want to get on board with the maturity thing..but I just can’t. Not with the route the writers are taking.
Sam not looking for Dean when he was in Purgatory is a very sore subject for me to this day. And I think it was a huge misstep last season for a huge chunk of fandom.
Sam not looking for Dean is not the Sam I know. Yeah, I can believe that Sam did not look because he was lost & broken & felt he had no one to turn to. But I can’t believe he did not look because he simply decided to let Dean go. Sam has lost Dean many times – in the time traveling episode w/ Jody, or even just on a hunt like tonight when Dean called Sam all doped up – and he has ALWAYS looked. I’m not saying Sam should have turned over heaven & earth to find and save Dean..but he shouldn’t have just given up on Dean by not putting in an ounce of effort. Sure, characters can change, but I need to still be able to recognize them, and not only that but understand why the characters are changing. And I don’t recognize Sam & the writers are not giving us any real insight into his thoughts & feelings so I can’t understand him the way I so badly want to.
To be honest, Sam seemed like a dick tonight. Sam has every right in the world to be mad at Dean, I’m not saying he doesn’t. But he was written so callously & cold-hearted. It didn’t make me want to root for this new definition of brotherhood.
I need for Sam & Dean to always be Sam & Dean – not matter the season. And in my opinion, the core of SPN is Sam & Dean doing anything & everything for each other. It isn’t healthy, but Dean & Sam’s messed up relationship is why SPN packs such an emotional punch. Sam & Dean are in the crazy world, fighting these crazy creatures, and they need each other to be their anchor. And SPN needs Sam & Dean and their relationship to anchor the show.
Bottom line, I don’t want to see Sam & Dean to mature to a point where they can live happily independent of one another. When if Sam dies, Dean cries a little & then moves along to hunt with Cas (or whoever).
I think fixing the broken relationship between the the brothers will be tricky because there is a very thin line between unraveling the brother bond for a better, stronger, healthier bond & unraveling the brother bond to a point where you lose something so, so special (& sacred) to SPN.
I know that onset the guys have altered ‘I love you’ dialogue so I don’t expect that. But an alternative way of expressing it – ‘you’ll always be my brother’ etc would be good.
What I don’t understand is how the writers can have a whole big dramatic scene at the end of season 8 where Sam says he hates that Dean seems to prefer other people to him because it makes him
feel unworthy, but suddenly in season 9 Dean’s problem is that he should not prefer Sam to everyone else. I don’t blame Sam for this, I blame the people who wanted everyone who saw the finale to appreciate this ‘brothers before the world’ mentality but now want those same people to think that mentality is all a pile of crock. Which, especially if you were one of the people watching that finale going ‘Jeremy Carver do you really think this is emotionally healthy?’ is very frustrating.
Meanwhile I feel like Sam is being written as though he was one of those 1950s American men trapped by an oppressively clinging mother. And the show’s response to that currently seems to be ‘Dean has to learn to let Sam go and accept the whacking great hole in his life that will leave’, because the show has systematically shown us that Dean can’t have a good life outside hunting or normal relationships. Hell, he can’t even have weird relationships: Benny goes back to purgatory, Charlie is inexorably drawn to the hunting life, the show seems determined never to allow Dean and Castiel to be happily in the same room for more than five minutes…
I’m starting to think that Dean needs the equivalent of feminism: instead of this being all about the negative of Dean learning to let Sam go, why can’t it be about him finding meaning in his life that isn’t about Sam? And if Sam is supposed to be the emotionally mature one here, why can’t the writers show him behaving with emotional maturity to Dean – in other words, instead of insisting that Dean has to change, compassionately accepting his brother is always going to be who he is, and constructing his own life independently so that he gives himself the space where he can not be burdened by the weight of Dean’s feelings for him?
Meanwhile I really laughed at your description of Dean’s ‘self-destructive ways’ including ‘staying up all night watching movies.’ That’ll be an embarrassing confession when he finally goes to a Self-Destroyers Anonymous meeting and meets people who’ve been on some real benders 😉
I know that onset the guys have altered ‘I love you’ dialogue so I don’t expect that. But an alternative way of expressing it – ‘you’ll always be my brother’ etc would be good.
What I don’t understand is how the writers can have a whole big dramatic scene at the end of season 8 where Sam says he hates that Dean seems to prefer other people to him because it makes him
feel unworthy, but suddenly in season 9 Dean’s problem is that he should not prefer Sam to everyone else. I don’t blame Sam for this, I blame the people who wanted everyone who saw the finale to appreciate this ‘brothers before the world’ mentality but now want those same people to think that mentality is all a pile of crock. Which, especially if you were one of the people watching that finale going ‘Jeremy Carver do you really think this is emotionally healthy?’ is very frustrating.
Meanwhile I feel like Sam is being written as though he was one of those 1950s American men trapped by an oppressively clinging mother. And the show’s response to that currently seems to be ‘Dean has to learn to let Sam go and accept the whacking great hole in his life that will leave’, because the show has systematically shown us that Dean can’t have a good life outside hunting or normal relationships. Hell, he can’t even have weird relationships: Benny goes back to purgatory, Charlie is inexorably drawn to the hunting life, the show seems determined never to allow Dean and Castiel to be happily in the same room for more than five minutes…
I’m starting to think that Dean needs the equivalent of feminism: instead of this being all about the negative of Dean learning to let Sam go, why can’t it be about him finding meaning in his life that isn’t about Sam? And if Sam is supposed to be the emotionally mature one here, why can’t the writers show him behaving with emotional maturity to Dean – in other words, instead of insisting that Dean has to change, compassionately accepting his brother is always going to be who he is, and constructing his own life independently so that he gives himself the space where he can not be burdened by the weight of Dean’s feelings for him?
Meanwhile I really laughed at your description of Dean’s ‘self-destructive ways’ including ‘staying up all night watching movies.’ That’ll be an embarrassing confession when he finally goes to a Self-Destroyers Anonymous meeting and meets people who’ve been on some real benders 😉
I love Dean, and I love what he did for Sam – practically raising him, giving up a good portion of his own happiness for him, etc. But in their adult relationship, his possessiveness is destructive to them both. In my mind, mature love, the greatest love, means, “I would die for you.” Love that says, “I won’t let you die” when the person is sick, tired, worn down, and ready to go means selfish love. Sam’s experiences with unnatural death/life and the consequences have definitely reshaped his beliefs from years ago. I just hope he can help Dean accept that so they can move forward. I believe that Sam truly loves Dean, understands what Dean sacrificed for him growing up, and would die for Dean without a second thought. I even think he understands that Dean needs to play the big brother role, and that he can live with that. What he can’t live with is Dean making life and death choices for him that clearly go against his wishes. This season is a great ride so far, and I can’t wait to find out where we’re headed!
I love Dean, and I love what he did for Sam – practically raising him, giving up a good portion of his own happiness for him, etc. But in their adult relationship, his possessiveness is destructive to them both. In my mind, mature love, the greatest love, means, “I would die for you.” Love that says, “I won’t let you die” when the person is sick, tired, worn down, and ready to go means selfish love. Sam’s experiences with unnatural death/life and the consequences have definitely reshaped his beliefs from years ago. I just hope he can help Dean accept that so they can move forward. I believe that Sam truly loves Dean, understands what Dean sacrificed for him growing up, and would die for Dean without a second thought. I even think he understands that Dean needs to play the big brother role, and that he can live with that. What he can’t live with is Dean making life and death choices for him that clearly go against his wishes. This season is a great ride so far, and I can’t wait to find out where we’re headed!
I understand why we’d want the brothers to say ‘I love you’, but that’s seemingly not the way they’re wired. I think the only time we’ve come close to the L word being mentioned in this context is when Dean referred to “this… call it love, or whatever” (I’m paraphrasing, can’t remember the exact episode). These are guys who avoid chick-flick moments, and yes, while they’ve come a long way since Season 1, isn’t it more realistic that two family members who have never been outwardly emotional would find it difficult this late in their relationship to truly express themselves? For instance, I personally don’t have a close relationship with my dad. I love him to bits, but I struggle with telling him that, as he does with me. I’m now in my mid-30s and being openly emotional with him is even more awkward and uncomfortable than before because of how much time has passed WITHOUT us expressing ourselves (though we’re working on it!) 😀 I think this is true for a lot of people and their own family. So what we’re seeing in these latest episodes works for me, personally.
The other thing is, I’m seeing this (again) from a guy’s perspective (me being a dude) 😀 And, frustrating as it is, this “slow burn” we’re seeing between the boys strikes me as more authentic between two brothers than anything. The fact that they’re choosing to work together WHILE slowly working this out (if this is indeed what their end-of-episode conversations are leading up to) is progress, in my opinion. : 😉
I understand why we’d want the brothers to say ‘I love you’, but that’s seemingly not the way they’re wired. I think the only time we’ve come close to the L word being mentioned in this context is when Dean referred to “this… call it love, or whatever” (I’m paraphrasing, can’t remember the exact episode). These are guys who avoid chick-flick moments, and yes, while they’ve come a long way since Season 1, isn’t it more realistic that two family members who have never been outwardly emotional would find it difficult this late in their relationship to truly express themselves? For instance, I personally don’t have a close relationship with my dad. I love him to bits, but I struggle with telling him that, as he does with me. I’m now in my mid-30s and being openly emotional with him is even more awkward and uncomfortable than before because of how much time has passed WITHOUT us expressing ourselves (though we’re working on it!) 😀 I think this is true for a lot of people and their own family. So what we’re seeing in these latest episodes works for me, personally.
The other thing is, I’m seeing this (again) from a guy’s perspective (me being a dude) 😀 And, frustrating as it is, this “slow burn” we’re seeing between the boys strikes me as more authentic between two brothers than anything. The fact that they’re choosing to work together WHILE slowly working this out (if this is indeed what their end-of-episode conversations are leading up to) is progress, in my opinion. : 😉
JJ, you expressed some of my feelings. I love both these characters, but I am ticked off with Sam right now. Over 9 years, I have felt one or the other character was being a jerk, and I am clearly in a Sam moment now. I am comforted by looking back at times I felt that way about Sam or Dean in the past, and find they got through it and I stopped being annoyed with the character that had annoyed me (Dean being a jerk to Sam after Lucifer rose in those early season 5 episodes, Sam being a jerk to Dean in season 4 when he was all Ruby’d) – so have to believe that based on past history the same will happen again and I will be back to adoring both characters again. But boy – I want it to happen soon, because I really do not get this Sam who would not have saved his brother – and who does not seem to have any empathy for his brother’s pain or concern about the mark of Cain. To clarify, still love both characters, just annoyed with one right now. I suspect that I will adore the episode where they are back to normal, much the way I have when they mended fences in previous seasons. Cannot wait!
All that aside, I will say that I liked the MOTW storyline and liked the brothers fighting together, Sam’s quick work finding Dean after the call, and Dean recognizing rufies (spelling?) was very funny. So – decent episode, great direction, great acting by leads and guest stars, but I am ready for some changes sooner rather than later.
JJ, you expressed some of my feelings. I love both these characters, but I am ticked off with Sam right now. Over 9 years, I have felt one or the other character was being a jerk, and I am clearly in a Sam moment now. I am comforted by looking back at times I felt that way about Sam or Dean in the past, and find they got through it and I stopped being annoyed with the character that had annoyed me (Dean being a jerk to Sam after Lucifer rose in those early season 5 episodes, Sam being a jerk to Dean in season 4 when he was all Ruby’d) – so have to believe that based on past history the same will happen again and I will be back to adoring both characters again. But boy – I want it to happen soon, because I really do not get this Sam who would not have saved his brother – and who does not seem to have any empathy for his brother’s pain or concern about the mark of Cain. To clarify, still love both characters, just annoyed with one right now. I suspect that I will adore the episode where they are back to normal, much the way I have when they mended fences in previous seasons. Cannot wait!
All that aside, I will say that I liked the MOTW storyline and liked the brothers fighting together, Sam’s quick work finding Dean after the call, and Dean recognizing rufies (spelling?) was very funny. So – decent episode, great direction, great acting by leads and guest stars, but I am ready for some changes sooner rather than later.
What I keep being reminded of is the way they both reacted when Bobby was dying. Sam was sad, but accepting. Dean was his usual “NO ONE DIES” self. And that illustrates perfectly how each of them faces death at this stage of the game. I think Sam has developed a more realistic reaction to death, while Dean is still stuck a mindset that the death of his loved ones must be prevented at all costs. If Dean died, Sam would be tremendously hurt, but he wouldn’t go against the forces of the universe to change it as Dean did. Sam loves Dean and would always try to save him through natural means, but not, if I may, Supernatural craziness. He has his limits when it comes to saving anyone, but especially Dean. And after what happened before, who could blame him? He’s not willing to go to the extremes anymore to save Dean. It hurts to hear, but it makes sense.
The only thing that pisses me off about what he said is it felt unfinished. When he paused at the end, I thought he was going to continue. He needed to say that this wasn’t because he didn’t care about Dean or didn’t want what was best for him. He needed to say that he still wanted his brother alive, but he had seen the tragedy caused by their undying missions to save each other and wanted it to stop. If Dean was dying and at peace with that, Sam would let him go. But [i]not [/i]out of a lack of love. Out of respect for Dean’s decision, and a regard for the potential consequences. Sam knows this, and I think many fans know this too, but Dean is completely in the dark at this point. I wouldn’t be surprised if he thinks Sam hates him. All he heard is that Sam wouldn’t save him, doesn’t want to be his brother, and probably thinks he should do them all a favor and go die in a hole. Which I seriously hope was not the message Sam had in mind.
What I keep being reminded of is the way they both reacted when Bobby was dying. Sam was sad, but accepting. Dean was his usual “NO ONE DIES” self. And that illustrates perfectly how each of them faces death at this stage of the game. I think Sam has developed a more realistic reaction to death, while Dean is still stuck a mindset that the death of his loved ones must be prevented at all costs. If Dean died, Sam would be tremendously hurt, but he wouldn’t go against the forces of the universe to change it as Dean did. Sam loves Dean and would always try to save him through natural means, but not, if I may, Supernatural craziness. He has his limits when it comes to saving anyone, but especially Dean. And after what happened before, who could blame him? He’s not willing to go to the extremes anymore to save Dean. It hurts to hear, but it makes sense.
The only thing that pisses me off about what he said is it felt unfinished. When he paused at the end, I thought he was going to continue. He needed to say that this wasn’t because he didn’t care about Dean or didn’t want what was best for him. He needed to say that he still wanted his brother alive, but he had seen the tragedy caused by their undying missions to save each other and wanted it to stop. If Dean was dying and at peace with that, Sam would let him go. But [i]not [/i]out of a lack of love. Out of respect for Dean’s decision, and a regard for the potential consequences. Sam knows this, and I think many fans know this too, but Dean is completely in the dark at this point. I wouldn’t be surprised if he thinks Sam hates him. All he heard is that Sam wouldn’t save him, doesn’t want to be his brother, and probably thinks he should do them all a favor and go die in a hole. Which I seriously hope was not the message Sam had in mind.
Dellamirandola, if Sam accepts Dean the way he is, it also means that Sam has to leave, and I certainly don’t want that. Dean having Sam possessed by Gadreel was totally unacceptable, and a fate worse than death, as far as Sam is concerned.
I love the last conversation. I didn’t think that Sam was cold or cruel at all. He didn’t say “I love you”, but have the brothers ever said that to each other in so many words? The scene when Dean was almost passed out showed how Sam still obviously cares a great deal about his brother. But, he’s doing the best he can right now. He’s not telling Dean to choose another hemisphere. He’s not throwing a childhood memento in the garbage.
I don’t know what people want from Sam. He can be angry, but not too much? Only a certain way? Maybe he would soften a bit if Dean apologized and didn’t say he’d do it again!
And Dean, oh Dean. He’s angry because Sam is angry. Tough. Can you imagine if Sam had acted like that in season 5? And the comment about Sam not being good interviewing a woman was complete BS. And he doesn’t understand how much he hurt Sam and how wrong he was. AT ALL.
Those two have a long way to go, but Sam, at least, is on the right track.
Just my opinion of course.
Dellamirandola, if Sam accepts Dean the way he is, it also means that Sam has to leave, and I certainly don’t want that. Dean having Sam possessed by Gadreel was totally unacceptable, and a fate worse than death, as far as Sam is concerned.
I love the last conversation. I didn’t think that Sam was cold or cruel at all. He didn’t say “I love you”, but have the brothers ever said that to each other in so many words? The scene when Dean was almost passed out showed how Sam still obviously cares a great deal about his brother. But, he’s doing the best he can right now. He’s not telling Dean to choose another hemisphere. He’s not throwing a childhood memento in the garbage.
I don’t know what people want from Sam. He can be angry, but not too much? Only a certain way? Maybe he would soften a bit if Dean apologized and didn’t say he’d do it again!
And Dean, oh Dean. He’s angry because Sam is angry. Tough. Can you imagine if Sam had acted like that in season 5? And the comment about Sam not being good interviewing a woman was complete BS. And he doesn’t understand how much he hurt Sam and how wrong he was. AT ALL.
Those two have a long way to go, but Sam, at least, is on the right track.
Just my opinion of course.
I really didn’t like this episode. This may be a realistic relationship but I don’t watch SPN to see “life happening”. I tune in each week because I want to see something special, something better, and Supernatural was that for years. I miss Sam and Dean against the world, or Sam, Dean, and Castiel fighting the bad guys. Now is just Sam fighting with Dean and the writers thinking that the conflict is good for the story. I don’t recognize Sam anymore; I miss season 1 – 3 Sam that would do anything for his brother. But it isn’t Sam fault; he is been possessed by Jeremy Carver and he is doing things that he wouldn’t do if he would be himself. Somebody please bring some holly water.
I really didn’t like this episode. This may be a realistic relationship but I don’t watch SPN to see “life happening”. I tune in each week because I want to see something special, something better, and Supernatural was that for years. I miss Sam and Dean against the world, or Sam, Dean, and Castiel fighting the bad guys. Now is just Sam fighting with Dean and the writers thinking that the conflict is good for the story. I don’t recognize Sam anymore; I miss season 1 – 3 Sam that would do anything for his brother. But it isn’t Sam fault; he is been possessed by Jeremy Carver and he is doing things that he wouldn’t do if he would be himself. Somebody please bring some holly water.
I totally get what happened, the truth does hurt but it’s something Dean needed to hear.
The question remains, how he will respond to it?
One can hope Dean will take everything Sam said and start realizing he can do things on his own and doesn’t need his brother, in an unhealthy way. They can love and respect each other, but not to the point where it’s unhealthy.
Characters need to grow and change, this is a good direction..
I totally get what happened, the truth does hurt but it’s something Dean needed to hear.
The question remains, how he will respond to it?
One can hope Dean will take everything Sam said and start realizing he can do things on his own and doesn’t need his brother, in an unhealthy way. They can love and respect each other, but not to the point where it’s unhealthy.
Characters need to grow and change, this is a good direction..
Hi Alice and Bookdal, I really liked this episode much better than the last couple of ones. At least and at last they are having a conversation. Was it pleasant? Hell no. I just felt a little relief that Sam finally got to say some of what’s on his mind. Nothing was a huge shock so even though I am a Dean leaning fan, I’m not mad at Sam. I felt that he was in control and I did not feel he was being cold or heartless. I have always felt (and still want to think) that if the situations had been reversed that Sam would have a hard time watching his brothers life drain away. He SAYS he would but would he really? I don’t know, he hasn’t been in that exact spot yet. Not searching for Dean was a different thing to me. Dean was already gone in his mind. Anyhow I liked that Sam got to tell Dean some hard truths as Sam sees it. I felt horrible for Dean. In his current dark place it is going to hit very hard. I am hopeful that this is leading somewhere. I said that last year too and thought Sacrifice was a good start. Now I am not sure what the endgame is. I do not ever doubt the love these two have for each other though. If the goal is for the guys to let their brother die without trying to save them because it is the “right” thing, it may alter how I have always seen the relationship. I am still trying to decide if that is maturity or extremely sad.
Hi Alice and Bookdal, I really liked this episode much better than the last couple of ones. At least and at last they are having a conversation. Was it pleasant? Hell no. I just felt a little relief that Sam finally got to say some of what’s on his mind. Nothing was a huge shock so even though I am a Dean leaning fan, I’m not mad at Sam. I felt that he was in control and I did not feel he was being cold or heartless. I have always felt (and still want to think) that if the situations had been reversed that Sam would have a hard time watching his brothers life drain away. He SAYS he would but would he really? I don’t know, he hasn’t been in that exact spot yet. Not searching for Dean was a different thing to me. Dean was already gone in his mind. Anyhow I liked that Sam got to tell Dean some hard truths as Sam sees it. I felt horrible for Dean. In his current dark place it is going to hit very hard. I am hopeful that this is leading somewhere. I said that last year too and thought Sacrifice was a good start. Now I am not sure what the endgame is. I do not ever doubt the love these two have for each other though. If the goal is for the guys to let their brother die without trying to save them because it is the “right” thing, it may alter how I have always seen the relationship. I am still trying to decide if that is maturity or extremely sad.
Well, that was good but still kind of reeling from the ending … as everyone else seems to be. I’m just a little confused because wasn’t it just two episodes ago that Cas was telling Sam he realized that the ends don’t always justify the means and he stopped the extraction because Sam was more important and he didn’t want to kill Sam to find Gadreel? And Sam said at the end of the episode that Cas was right about everything and even hugged him and now he’s back to saying that if the situations were reversed and he would have let Dean die to shut the Gates of Hell. Does anyone else see this?
I mean, I agree that Dean is afraid of being alone (ok, who isn’t) and that’s why he wouldn’t let Sam go and that is something he needs to think about. I’m not saying Sam should have died at the end of last season because NO, just NO so don’t hate me. It’s at times like these that I wish Bobby was still around because he’d always call them on it when they weren’t listening to eachother … ok, I wish Bobby was still around regardless (he’d love the bunker). It just means that it’s going to take longer for them to get on the same page and that’s ok. It’s a big issue and Kevin died because of it so I don’t expect it to be solved with a bow on top that quickly but I’m hoping that they both take the time to actually think about what eachother is saying and can come to a better understanding of eachother and really get to a better place.
Well, that was good but still kind of reeling from the ending … as everyone else seems to be. I’m just a little confused because wasn’t it just two episodes ago that Cas was telling Sam he realized that the ends don’t always justify the means and he stopped the extraction because Sam was more important and he didn’t want to kill Sam to find Gadreel? And Sam said at the end of the episode that Cas was right about everything and even hugged him and now he’s back to saying that if the situations were reversed and he would have let Dean die to shut the Gates of Hell. Does anyone else see this?
I mean, I agree that Dean is afraid of being alone (ok, who isn’t) and that’s why he wouldn’t let Sam go and that is something he needs to think about. I’m not saying Sam should have died at the end of last season because NO, just NO so don’t hate me. It’s at times like these that I wish Bobby was still around because he’d always call them on it when they weren’t listening to eachother … ok, I wish Bobby was still around regardless (he’d love the bunker). It just means that it’s going to take longer for them to get on the same page and that’s ok. It’s a big issue and Kevin died because of it so I don’t expect it to be solved with a bow on top that quickly but I’m hoping that they both take the time to actually think about what eachother is saying and can come to a better understanding of eachother and really get to a better place.
I find I’m having a problem with Supernatural this season. I really haven’t liked Sam in quite a while, and after this episode, I don’t like Dean very much either. I realize conflict adds drama and drives the story. It also aids in character growth. But I’m terribly sad that these two brothers that I loved, are growing into people I don’t like very much. And therefore, sadly, this is a show I don’t like much anymore. I know this is strictly my problem, but I guess I had to vent.
I find I’m having a problem with Supernatural this season. I really haven’t liked Sam in quite a while, and after this episode, I don’t like Dean very much either. I realize conflict adds drama and drives the story. It also aids in character growth. But I’m terribly sad that these two brothers that I loved, are growing into people I don’t like very much. And therefore, sadly, this is a show I don’t like much anymore. I know this is strictly my problem, but I guess I had to vent.
@8 :Iagree. I think I was yelling at my Tv at the end when Sam stopped and walked away. “Hey! Wait! You’re not done yet!” But you’re right. This conversation is definitely to be continued and I am loving/hating every minute of it because I know that at the end of all this pain there should be a stronger better understanding of their relationship. Dean is fighting this every step of the way. I know he finds all this especially galling but it is necessary.
@6: Thank you coordinate your insight into his. From my personal experiences, this is the way it goes as well. I have the same relationship with my mother. Showing my love isn’t a problem but saying it is awkward and difficult ult and to me the brothers behaviour is very authentic of two “grown men ” who have no experience whatsoever, discussing their personal feelings in this particular manner or only in the most dire sttraights. Never calmly and rationally laying it out there. And Sam is right. Dean said it himself (or was it Gadreel?) “There is no me without you. ”
There are two kinds of love. The obsessive selfish “I’ll never let you go love “which a person expresses to please themself. And then there’s the selfless “I would die for you love. ” (Now what should happen after this convo is for Sam to show Dean an example of selfless love though I have no idea how it could be shown authentically.)
This is never going to be one of my favorite episodes. The real meat of the episode was too short. I don’t like the brothers taking potshots at each other in that manner and every single trope about fat people that could be shown was shown. That’s just lazy writing. I guessed the MOTW in the first fifteen minutes, who it was and that it wasn’t the woman. This episode was rather airless. Not especially funny with some pretty bland and wooden dialogue and too heavy on the back end. Its not the worse episode but it gets about a 6.
PS :I know there’s a typo in here somewhere. Please forgive.
@8 :Iagree. I think I was yelling at my Tv at the end when Sam stopped and walked away. “Hey! Wait! You’re not done yet!” But you’re right. This conversation is definitely to be continued and I am loving/hating every minute of it because I know that at the end of all this pain there should be a stronger better understanding of their relationship. Dean is fighting this every step of the way. I know he finds all this especially galling but it is necessary.
@6: Thank you coordinate your insight into his. From my personal experiences, this is the way it goes as well. I have the same relationship with my mother. Showing my love isn’t a problem but saying it is awkward and difficult ult and to me the brothers behaviour is very authentic of two “grown men ” who have no experience whatsoever, discussing their personal feelings in this particular manner or only in the most dire sttraights. Never calmly and rationally laying it out there. And Sam is right. Dean said it himself (or was it Gadreel?) “There is no me without you. ”
There are two kinds of love. The obsessive selfish “I’ll never let you go love “which a person expresses to please themself. And then there’s the selfless “I would die for you love. ” (Now what should happen after this convo is for Sam to show Dean an example of selfless love though I have no idea how it could be shown authentically.)
This is never going to be one of my favorite episodes. The real meat of the episode was too short. I don’t like the brothers taking potshots at each other in that manner and every single trope about fat people that could be shown was shown. That’s just lazy writing. I guessed the MOTW in the first fifteen minutes, who it was and that it wasn’t the woman. This episode was rather airless. Not especially funny with some pretty bland and wooden dialogue and too heavy on the back end. Its not the worse episode but it gets about a 6.
PS :I know there’s a typo in here somewhere. Please forgive.
Well, I think it probably has something to do with Dean’s new “mark”; and where that will take him. Doesn’t mean I have to like it!
You are right; this is life. BUT, I have plenty of real life at home.
I think back to the season 1 finale. Sam chose Dean. Even when he wasn’t sure Dad was possessed. Season 3, when Sam would have done anything to save Dean. The love they share, that most of us will never know. It may not be realistic; but I want it back!
Well, I think it probably has something to do with Dean’s new “mark”; and where that will take him. Doesn’t mean I have to like it!
You are right; this is life. BUT, I have plenty of real life at home.
I think back to the season 1 finale. Sam chose Dean. Even when he wasn’t sure Dad was possessed. Season 3, when Sam would have done anything to save Dean. The love they share, that most of us will never know. It may not be realistic; but I want it back!
I think your analysis of where the brother relationship is is spot on! As soon as Sam said that he believes they don’t have the same view of their roles in this, I believed this was exactly the convo that was coming. Of course Sam still loves Dean and If Dean says “Sammy I need you” Sam will be there to help him… However he is not willing to “save” Dean at all cost – and that is the fundamental difference as to where they are now after 9 years… Sam is willing to sacrifice for the greater good – Dean is not – it’s still protect Sammy no matter the cost… And that is a basically selfish motivation…. It is based in love but truly speaks more to Dean not wanting to be alone…But ultimately the brother bond is still there – on BOTH sides…. Sam just needs Dean to realize “why” it would’ve been the right thing to let him die….the writers are serving both characters in how this is playing out – I fully trust them to guide things to the resolution at the heart of the shows – the restoration of the brother bond
I think your analysis of where the brother relationship is is spot on! As soon as Sam said that he believes they don’t have the same view of their roles in this, I believed this was exactly the convo that was coming. Of course Sam still loves Dean and If Dean says “Sammy I need you” Sam will be there to help him… However he is not willing to “save” Dean at all cost – and that is the fundamental difference as to where they are now after 9 years… Sam is willing to sacrifice for the greater good – Dean is not – it’s still protect Sammy no matter the cost… And that is a basically selfish motivation…. It is based in love but truly speaks more to Dean not wanting to be alone…But ultimately the brother bond is still there – on BOTH sides…. Sam just needs Dean to realize “why” it would’ve been the right thing to let him die….the writers are serving both characters in how this is playing out – I fully trust them to guide things to the resolution at the heart of the shows – the restoration of the brother bond
I was so disheartened by Jared’s tweet because even though he played an addict he does not truly Understand THEM [Philip Seymour Hoffman ] and then looky here, looky here. This show every time I think it’s down IT MOST DEFINATELY IS NOT OUT.
It surely looked light and funny from the clips but this was ONE DEEP EPISODE. wow BRAVO WRITERS and Js 8)
Don’t think DEAN is afraid to be alone just IS SAM’S PROTECTOR. jmo
I LOVE THIS DAMN SHOW………
I was so disheartened by Jared’s tweet because even though he played an addict he does not truly Understand THEM [Philip Seymour Hoffman ] and then looky here, looky here. This show every time I think it’s down IT MOST DEFINATELY IS NOT OUT.
It surely looked light and funny from the clips but this was ONE DEEP EPISODE. wow BRAVO WRITERS and Js 8)
Don’t think DEAN is afraid to be alone just IS SAM’S PROTECTOR. jmo
I LOVE THIS DAMN SHOW………
Aqualillies & Ikeke35
Agreed, I was happy the conversation was finally happening, but the writers shouldn’t have left it there. I guess they did it for the furore and publicity it’s likely to cause.
In short, I think Sam was right to say what he said, but a little coda explaining WHY he wouldn’t have saved Dean at all costs was necessary in my mind.
On a shallow note, Sam was HOT HOT HOT! And at least he didn’t get knocked out this episode 😀
Aqualillies & Ikeke35
Agreed, I was happy the conversation was finally happening, but the writers shouldn’t have left it there. I guess they did it for the furore and publicity it’s likely to cause.
In short, I think Sam was right to say what he said, but a little coda explaining WHY he wouldn’t have saved Dean at all costs was necessary in my mind.
On a shallow note, Sam was HOT HOT HOT! And at least he didn’t get knocked out this episode 😀
I thought it was pretty clear why Sam would have never done to Dean what was done to him. Sam has been possessed by a demon (Meg) and watched himself kill another hunter, he was possessed by Lucifer and watched himself kill not only countless numbers of innocent people but Bobby and Castiel as well. Now he was possessed by Gadreel and felt his hand on Kevin’s head while he burned him alive. Sam I think is saying he would never do that to Dean. He would never want his brother to feel that pain.
And yes the Sam hate is running wild everywhere. So here we go again with Sam/Jared thrown under the bus. For many fans no matter what Sam does now he will never be forgiven for telling Dean this truth. The rest of this season is going to be unpleasant at best in the fandom. 🙁
I thought it was pretty clear why Sam would have never done to Dean what was done to him. Sam has been possessed by a demon (Meg) and watched himself kill another hunter, he was possessed by Lucifer and watched himself kill not only countless numbers of innocent people but Bobby and Castiel as well. Now he was possessed by Gadreel and felt his hand on Kevin’s head while he burned him alive. Sam I think is saying he would never do that to Dean. He would never want his brother to feel that pain.
And yes the Sam hate is running wild everywhere. So here we go again with Sam/Jared thrown under the bus. For many fans no matter what Sam does now he will never be forgiven for telling Dean this truth. The rest of this season is going to be unpleasant at best in the fandom. 🙁
I dont know what to think anymore.
I dont know what to think anymore.
Finally they got a story from my country PERU!! but just for the record, Pishtaco means degollador “cut (somebody) throat” They were assassins who cuts peoples throat and used to sell their fat for combustible among other things.
About the guys, I really don’t get Sam, he did the trials because Dean was willing to die to finish them and he did not want that to happened, even when Dean told Sam his version of who is worth living.
Maybe the writers wants to pull a story, the real story about why Sam has to live no matter what, maybe was something else in his past, that only Dean knows.
Finally they got a story from my country PERU!! but just for the record, Pishtaco means degollador “cut (somebody) throat” They were assassins who cuts peoples throat and used to sell their fat for combustible among other things.
About the guys, I really don’t get Sam, he did the trials because Dean was willing to die to finish them and he did not want that to happened, even when Dean told Sam his version of who is worth living.
Maybe the writers wants to pull a story, the real story about why Sam has to live no matter what, maybe was something else in his past, that only Dean knows.
Sam essentially said what Dean said about himself, that Dean is poison. Then added that Dean doesn’t do more good then harm and that he wouldn’t save Dean if the roles were reversed and should have added “and I didn’t.” Apparently Kevin wasn’t worthy of being saved by Sam last year either. Good thing the writers had Sam say he has a heart (at least where monsters are concerned) because I would have guessed that Gadreel took it with him.
I’m especially disheartened to see Sam and Dean together in the previews for the next episode. I really think for his own mental well being Dean needs to get as far away from Sam as possible. Oh, by the way Sam, Dean isn’t alone he has Cas, Charlie, Garth, Krissy and well you get my point. Dean saved the wrong “brother” in “Taxi Driver.”
IMO nothing about Sam showed maturity. A line has definitely been crossed this time for me.
Sam essentially said what Dean said about himself, that Dean is poison. Then added that Dean doesn’t do more good then harm and that he wouldn’t save Dean if the roles were reversed and should have added “and I didn’t.” Apparently Kevin wasn’t worthy of being saved by Sam last year either. Good thing the writers had Sam say he has a heart (at least where monsters are concerned) because I would have guessed that Gadreel took it with him.
I’m especially disheartened to see Sam and Dean together in the previews for the next episode. I really think for his own mental well being Dean needs to get as far away from Sam as possible. Oh, by the way Sam, Dean isn’t alone he has Cas, Charlie, Garth, Krissy and well you get my point. Dean saved the wrong “brother” in “Taxi Driver.”
IMO nothing about Sam showed maturity. A line has definitely been crossed this time for me.
I have already commented several times on the preview thread. I couldn’t keep quiet I was so moved by the conversation and the honesty. And I completely agree with Alice’s speculation. My heart hurts so much too. Even as I think Sam’s words are the right path. I just hope Sam finds ( well, the writer’s give) more words soon to open it up for Dean so the love can be shown in his words too.
I have already commented several times on the preview thread. I couldn’t keep quiet I was so moved by the conversation and the honesty. And I completely agree with Alice’s speculation. My heart hurts so much too. Even as I think Sam’s words are the right path. I just hope Sam finds ( well, the writer’s give) more words soon to open it up for Dean so the love can be shown in his words too.
[quote name=”JJ”
And in my opinion, the core of SPN is Sam & Dean doing anything & everything for each other. It isn’t healthy, but Dean & Sam’s messed up relationship is why SPN packs such an emotional punch. Sam & Dean are in the crazy world, fighting these crazy creatures, and they need each other to be their anchor. And SPN needs Sam & Dean and their relationship to anchor the show.
I think fixing the broken relationship between the the brothers will be tricky because there is a very thin line between unraveling the brother bond for a better, stronger, healthier bond & unraveling the brother bond to a point where you lose something so, so special (& sacred) to SPN.[/quote]
I found myself nodding as I read that portion. If Sam & Dean were real people I would agree completely with Alice’s article. But, I probably wouldn’t have this ridiculous obsession with their show if they were so emotionally healthy.
I still have faith in Carver. There is a huge difference between saying you wouldn’t save Dean at a huge cost & being confronted with the actual choice. I have a sneaky suspicion Sam is going to have to put his money where his mouth is. My spidey senses tell me Sam will at the least understand how difficult the decision is: knowing that his decision could save Dean or allow him to die.
[quote]
I found myself nodding as I read that portion. If Sam & Dean were real people I would agree completely with Alice’s article. But, I probably wouldn’t have this ridiculous obsession with their show if they were so emotionally healthy.
I still have faith in Carver. There is a huge difference between saying you wouldn’t save Dean at a huge cost & being confronted with the actual choice. I have a sneaky suspicion Sam is going to have to put his money where his mouth is. My spidey senses tell me Sam will at the least understand how difficult the decision is: knowing that his decision could save Dean or allow him to die.
lol mary9930… as you say “I found myself nodding as I read that portion. If Sam & Dean were real people I would agree completely with Alice’s article. But, I probably wouldn’t have this ridiculous obsession with their show if they were so emotionally healthy.”
I know I am the same. It makes me very torn, considering the work I do in my life. counselling and caring for folks at the end of life and difficult times. So, my after thoughts on the show always draw that part of me. When I am watching though, I thrive on the emotional mess and co-dependence. Oh the joyful guilt,
lol mary9930… as you say “I found myself nodding as I read that portion. If Sam & Dean were real people I would agree completely with Alice’s article. But, I probably wouldn’t have this ridiculous obsession with their show if they were so emotionally healthy.”
I know I am the same. It makes me very torn, considering the work I do in my life. counselling and caring for folks at the end of life and difficult times. So, my after thoughts on the show always draw that part of me. When I am watching though, I thrive on the emotional mess and co-dependence. Oh the joyful guilt,
It appears that we are leading up to something big with the boys that will bring them back together completely. This feels like the set up as we’ve seen in years past, just a different way to go about it.
I saw those Sam were coming…after the last 2 eps, so wasn’t surprised to hear them…and he’s right…Dean doesn’t want to be alone and he does put DEAN ahead of DEAN when it comes to saving Sam. It’s what Dean so desperately needs. But the heartbreak on his face as he listened to Sam actually say the words….OMG! That was painful. (Cudos to Jensen).
But, as true as Sam’s words are…in the end, he DID choose to live when Dean pulled him back these last 2 times. If he was so completely done and ready to die as he thinks he was, he would have said no, he would have closed the gates of Hell…so all is not lost with these boys!
My gut tells me that the Mark of Cain deal will play a big part of what ultimately brings the boys back to each other, but I see Dean falling into a deeper well before that happens.
All in all, I enjoyed the episode. It’s tough seeing the boys go through this, but we know it’ll be okay in the end. The writers and Carver are probably enjoying the fan torture more than anyone though. LOL!
And the words “fish taco” are now forever etched in my memory when thinking of SPN. LOL! That line about tossed me right outta my chair.
It appears that we are leading up to something big with the boys that will bring them back together completely. This feels like the set up as we’ve seen in years past, just a different way to go about it.
I saw those Sam were coming…after the last 2 eps, so wasn’t surprised to hear them…and he’s right…Dean doesn’t want to be alone and he does put DEAN ahead of DEAN when it comes to saving Sam. It’s what Dean so desperately needs. But the heartbreak on his face as he listened to Sam actually say the words….OMG! That was painful. (Cudos to Jensen).
But, as true as Sam’s words are…in the end, he DID choose to live when Dean pulled him back these last 2 times. If he was so completely done and ready to die as he thinks he was, he would have said no, he would have closed the gates of Hell…so all is not lost with these boys!
My gut tells me that the Mark of Cain deal will play a big part of what ultimately brings the boys back to each other, but I see Dean falling into a deeper well before that happens.
All in all, I enjoyed the episode. It’s tough seeing the boys go through this, but we know it’ll be okay in the end. The writers and Carver are probably enjoying the fan torture more than anyone though. LOL!
And the words “fish taco” are now forever etched in my memory when thinking of SPN. LOL! That line about tossed me right outta my chair.
now i understand the title 😀
i really enjoyed this episode, for jared in shorts and a tank alone. this talk has been a long time coming and it’s about time.
yes it hurt for dean to hear, but the truth often is. it had to be said. it’s time for the boys to have a functional loving brother relationship instead of this dysfunctional one that always leads to eventual suffering. a smothering love in not a healthy love.
first off let me just say that that conversation in no way made sam seem like he doesn’t love his brother, that he wouldn’t do anything to protect him and wouldn’t jump in front of a bullet for him. sam would die for him, of this i have no doubt. what sam was telling dean was if it were him in the exact circumstances, even if sam had gone as far as dean did in asking for a favor from the angels, if sam had heard dean’s conversation with death and sam understood that his brother had accepted death and didn’t want anyone else hurt because of him so it stays permanent, sam would never have overridden dean’s decision. he would’ve respected it. he would’ve let his brother go and not because he doesn’t love his brother less, but because he loves his brother more than himself.
secondly, i agree that with those who say history plays a part in sam’s decision. everything up to this point has brought the boys to where they are and how they think. the past is important. i’m in s3 now and as i rewatch all these eps i am reminded of all the events and conversations bet sam and dean. for example: sam watching dean all twisted and broken when his father sold his soul for him; listening to dean go on about how what’s dead should stay dead, that him being back was unnatural. dean doing the same thing to sam, telling him that it’s ok that he did because of what he’d done for his family; sam twisting during every episode of s3 trying to save dean and dean stopping him at every turn; telling sam in bedtime stories that he should let him go. being angry with sam when he thought sam got him out of hell telling him he didn’t want to get out that way since dean thought sam made a deal. dean’s willingness and eagerness to always sacrifice himself. bobby’s last words to sam and dean, when it’s your time to go go. the agreement between the boys. sam has taken so much into consideration. in s8 when he thought dean was dead, he kept his promise. it broke him. he imploded and ran away from his life. he couldn’t deal with any kind of responsibility. dean’s death affected him in the most negative way possible, but sam respected dean’s wishes that he made clear over the years. it hurt like hell, but he loved his brother enough to let him go.
now sam is telling dean that in those duplicate circumstances sam would honor dean’s wishes. it would hurt like hell. sam would grieve all over again, but sam would not override dean’s decision to die because it hurts sam too much. the way i see it that’s how much sam loves dean.
sam and dean are wired differently. sam has always had faith. sam’s seen heaven. he knows it’s real. he knows who is there. maybe sam’s faith makes it easier for him to accept his own death. dean seems to be able to accept his own death, but i’m not sure it has anything to do with faith. for him it seems more of an inevitable ending to life as a hunter. it’s my hope that sam will come to make dean understand his worth. maybe this seems like a harsh approach to some. but to me sam’s willingness to accept dean’s wishes, to let him go if dean really wanted to, to love him enough to set him free if that’s indeed what dean wanted is proof enough to dean how much sam does in fact love his brother and values his worth, even if dean doesn’t seem to be able to.
now i understand the title 😀
i really enjoyed this episode, for jared in shorts and a tank alone. this talk has been a long time coming and it’s about time.
yes it hurt for dean to hear, but the truth often is. it had to be said. it’s time for the boys to have a functional loving brother relationship instead of this dysfunctional one that always leads to eventual suffering. a smothering love in not a healthy love.
first off let me just say that that conversation in no way made sam seem like he doesn’t love his brother, that he wouldn’t do anything to protect him and wouldn’t jump in front of a bullet for him. sam would die for him, of this i have no doubt. what sam was telling dean was if it were him in the exact circumstances, even if sam had gone as far as dean did in asking for a favor from the angels, if sam had heard dean’s conversation with death and sam understood that his brother had accepted death and didn’t want anyone else hurt because of him so it stays permanent, sam would never have overridden dean’s decision. he would’ve respected it. he would’ve let his brother go and not because he doesn’t love his brother less, but because he loves his brother more than himself.
secondly, i agree that with those who say history plays a part in sam’s decision. everything up to this point has brought the boys to where they are and how they think. the past is important. i’m in s3 now and as i rewatch all these eps i am reminded of all the events and conversations bet sam and dean. for example: sam watching dean all twisted and broken when his father sold his soul for him; listening to dean go on about how what’s dead should stay dead, that him being back was unnatural. dean doing the same thing to sam, telling him that it’s ok that he did because of what he’d done for his family; sam twisting during every episode of s3 trying to save dean and dean stopping him at every turn; telling sam in bedtime stories that he should let him go. being angry with sam when he thought sam got him out of hell telling him he didn’t want to get out that way since dean thought sam made a deal. dean’s willingness and eagerness to always sacrifice himself. bobby’s last words to sam and dean, when it’s your time to go go. the agreement between the boys. sam has taken so much into consideration. in s8 when he thought dean was dead, he kept his promise. it broke him. he imploded and ran away from his life. he couldn’t deal with any kind of responsibility. dean’s death affected him in the most negative way possible, but sam respected dean’s wishes that he made clear over the years. it hurt like hell, but he loved his brother enough to let him go.
now sam is telling dean that in those duplicate circumstances sam would honor dean’s wishes. it would hurt like hell. sam would grieve all over again, but sam would not override dean’s decision to die because it hurts sam too much. the way i see it that’s how much sam loves dean.
sam and dean are wired differently. sam has always had faith. sam’s seen heaven. he knows it’s real. he knows who is there. maybe sam’s faith makes it easier for him to accept his own death. dean seems to be able to accept his own death, but i’m not sure it has anything to do with faith. for him it seems more of an inevitable ending to life as a hunter. it’s my hope that sam will come to make dean understand his worth. maybe this seems like a harsh approach to some. but to me sam’s willingness to accept dean’s wishes, to let him go if dean really wanted to, to love him enough to set him free if that’s indeed what dean wanted is proof enough to dean how much sam does in fact love his brother and values his worth, even if dean doesn’t seem to be able to.
i did wonder though about death’s appearance in eppy 901. never have we seen death come for anyone. it’s always been a reaper. but death took the opportunity to come for sam himself and i wondered why. death told sam how much he respected him and used the words….”well played”. death seemed to me to be proud of sam. he even promised sam that he would honor his request of not being brought back so no one can be hurt because of him, which seemed to me have death respect him even more. when dean/zeke showed up with the promise that he had a plan, imploring him by telling sam there aint no me if there aint no you…right before sam made the decision he looked back at death..with this look of uncertainty…and death, who never before gave anyone a choice, gave sam one. and i’m beginning to wonder if death had given sam the choice and in fact let him go didn’t have something to do with what’s going on now.
dean has a habit of messing with the natural order. he keeps bringing people back. maybe sam will be the one to make dean finally understand that he can’t do that anymore. maybe death made the
exception with sam not only as a reward, but to finally make dean understand that he has to stop messing with the natural order because innocents end up dying.
just a thought
i did wonder though about death’s appearance in eppy 901. never have we seen death come for anyone. it’s always been a reaper. but death took the opportunity to come for sam himself and i wondered why. death told sam how much he respected him and used the words….”well played”. death seemed to me to be proud of sam. he even promised sam that he would honor his request of not being brought back so no one can be hurt because of him, which seemed to me have death respect him even more. when dean/zeke showed up with the promise that he had a plan, imploring him by telling sam there aint no me if there aint no you…right before sam made the decision he looked back at death..with this look of uncertainty…and death, who never before gave anyone a choice, gave sam one. and i’m beginning to wonder if death had given sam the choice and in fact let him go didn’t have something to do with what’s going on now.
dean has a habit of messing with the natural order. he keeps bringing people back. maybe sam will be the one to make dean finally understand that he can’t do that anymore. maybe death made the
exception with sam not only as a reward, but to finally make dean understand that he has to stop messing with the natural order because innocents end up dying.
just a thought
I think Sam was saying he didnt want anyone saved if it was unnatural. Its basically what he said to Death. Sam’s death cheats cause others to suffer. It isnt right.
However, if Sam has to save Dean in a more normal fashion, I would love that.
I think that last scene reminds me of season 2 when Dean said to sam what is dead should stay dead. He felt unnatural then amd wrong. Imagine how Sam feels.
If we knew this would be the last season, then Sam should die and Dean should let him go. Maybe they can make this storyline a two year thing and end it that way next year. It would be like Dean getting the redo of his season 2 mistake of selling his soul.
I think Sam was saying he didnt want anyone saved if it was unnatural. Its basically what he said to Death. Sam’s death cheats cause others to suffer. It isnt right.
However, if Sam has to save Dean in a more normal fashion, I would love that.
I think that last scene reminds me of season 2 when Dean said to sam what is dead should stay dead. He felt unnatural then amd wrong. Imagine how Sam feels.
If we knew this would be the last season, then Sam should die and Dean should let him go. Maybe they can make this storyline a two year thing and end it that way next year. It would be like Dean getting the redo of his season 2 mistake of selling his soul.
I think Dean has forgotten his own POV from season 1’s episode Faith and pretty much all of Season 3, but in particular the episode Time is on my Side. In those two episodes Dean became angry at Sam for going to extreme measures to try and save him. In Faith Dean was furious when he found out that an innocent man died so that Dean could live. In that episode Dean was completely ready to die, and was hurt and angry when he found out that Sam essentially made a deal for him, even though Sam had no idea that’s what he was doing at the time. And in Time is on my Side, Dean absolutely refused to buy in to creepy Dr. Benton’s solution to getting him out of his demon deal, saying that he’d rather go to hell then end up a monster on earth like Dr. Benton, flat out refusing to go down that road. I guess for Dean the quality of his life means something to him, too bad he doesn’t afford Sam that same consideration; Sam just needs to be alive as far as Dean is concerned, even if there is no life to speak of. So, basically Dean’s own mindset doesn’t apply to anyone else other than Dean himself, and certainly not to Sam. When a person won’t allow the other people in their lives to live by the tenants that they themselves believe in, then there is a glaring double standard and a blatant hypocrisy at work. Dean is the only one who gets to choose for himself the quality of his own life? Not only is he not allowing Sam to make a choice about the quality of HIS own life, he’s choosing FOR Sam, something that Dean wouldn’t allow Sam to do for him. As much as Dean is hurt, and as much as Sam comes off as insensitive in this episode (come on writers, we CAN feel for both of them at the same time you know!!) Sam is in the right here IMO. The way in which Sam lives his life and what he wants or values for the lives of others is consistent, and Dean’s isn’t.
I know that many are unhappy with how the brotherhood bond is being changed, but I for one am glad. They can’t stagnate in this extremist and frankly lopsided behavior forever, or it begins to destroy the credibility of the characters and the drama. It seems as though they haven’t learned anything from all that they’ve gone through if they don’t change. They are different men than they were nine years ago, they themselves have changed and now their brotherhood must change as well. Just because its evolving doesn’t mean it still won’t be good, even epic, but things can’t continue on the way they have been IMO as there really is no brotherhood if only one brother gets to dictate all of the factors that make up their lives. At this moment in time, I think Sam HAS learned from his mistakes, as evidenced by his actions (or lack thereof) in season 8 and is in the process of changing. It’s Dean who’s stagnating; and this is causing him to do increasingly reckless things, like let his brother be possessed and then lying to him about it, or taking on the MoC without finding out what the implication are, and these actions, which have had very severe repercussions, are repercussions that neither brother can live with. Basically it undermines what they do, which is “saving people.”
I don’t think that Sam was saying in the episode that he doesn’t love his brother, or that he wouldn’t go to any possible, HUMAN lengths to save him, but he won’t go to a supernatural extreme and risk the world or other people to do it, not any more. I hope that the remainder of the season is going to be spent on Dean learning the same, that he learns to find enough of a sense of self worth to realize that he CAN let Sam go if it comes to that; that living without his brother would be just about the worst thing ever, but it can be done for the sake of everyone else, because the lengths they go to to save one another have become downright destructive. Sam learned this is season 8, now it’s Dean’s turn. Only then will he really treat Sam as an equal and as a brother.
That is my hope for where the rest of the season is going, but If it turns out that the rest of the episodes are spent teaching Sam how wrong he is, I will be sorely disappointed; possibly even ‘I am done with this show’ disappointed. Sam needs to save his brother, I think that would go a long way to helping repair much of Sam’s self image and hangups, as well as showing Dean that Sam truly does love him, that Dean is important to him. But if this is achieved by Sam making the kind of deal for Dean that Dean made for Sam at the start of this season, I will never, never, NEVER forgive them. Ever.
I think Dean has forgotten his own POV from season 1’s episode Faith and pretty much all of Season 3, but in particular the episode Time is on my Side. In those two episodes Dean became angry at Sam for going to extreme measures to try and save him. In Faith Dean was furious when he found out that an innocent man died so that Dean could live. In that episode Dean was completely ready to die, and was hurt and angry when he found out that Sam essentially made a deal for him, even though Sam had no idea that’s what he was doing at the time. And in Time is on my Side, Dean absolutely refused to buy in to creepy Dr. Benton’s solution to getting him out of his demon deal, saying that he’d rather go to hell then end up a monster on earth like Dr. Benton, flat out refusing to go down that road. I guess for Dean the quality of his life means something to him, too bad he doesn’t afford Sam that same consideration; Sam just needs to be alive as far as Dean is concerned, even if there is no life to speak of. So, basically Dean’s own mindset doesn’t apply to anyone else other than Dean himself, and certainly not to Sam. When a person won’t allow the other people in their lives to live by the tenants that they themselves believe in, then there is a glaring double standard and a blatant hypocrisy at work. Dean is the only one who gets to choose for himself the quality of his own life? Not only is he not allowing Sam to make a choice about the quality of HIS own life, he’s choosing FOR Sam, something that Dean wouldn’t allow Sam to do for him. As much as Dean is hurt, and as much as Sam comes off as insensitive in this episode (come on writers, we CAN feel for both of them at the same time you know!!) Sam is in the right here IMO. The way in which Sam lives his life and what he wants or values for the lives of others is consistent, and Dean’s isn’t.
I know that many are unhappy with how the brotherhood bond is being changed, but I for one am glad. They can’t stagnate in this extremist and frankly lopsided behavior forever, or it begins to destroy the credibility of the characters and the drama. It seems as though they haven’t learned anything from all that they’ve gone through if they don’t change. They are different men than they were nine years ago, they themselves have changed and now their brotherhood must change as well. Just because its evolving doesn’t mean it still won’t be good, even epic, but things can’t continue on the way they have been IMO as there really is no brotherhood if only one brother gets to dictate all of the factors that make up their lives. At this moment in time, I think Sam HAS learned from his mistakes, as evidenced by his actions (or lack thereof) in season 8 and is in the process of changing. It’s Dean who’s stagnating; and this is causing him to do increasingly reckless things, like let his brother be possessed and then lying to him about it, or taking on the MoC without finding out what the implication are, and these actions, which have had very severe repercussions, are repercussions that neither brother can live with. Basically it undermines what they do, which is “saving people.”
I don’t think that Sam was saying in the episode that he doesn’t love his brother, or that he wouldn’t go to any possible, HUMAN lengths to save him, but he won’t go to a supernatural extreme and risk the world or other people to do it, not any more. I hope that the remainder of the season is going to be spent on Dean learning the same, that he learns to find enough of a sense of self worth to realize that he CAN let Sam go if it comes to that; that living without his brother would be just about the worst thing ever, but it can be done for the sake of everyone else, because the lengths they go to to save one another have become downright destructive. Sam learned this is season 8, now it’s Dean’s turn. Only then will he really treat Sam as an equal and as a brother.
That is my hope for where the rest of the season is going, but If it turns out that the rest of the episodes are spent teaching Sam how wrong he is, I will be sorely disappointed; possibly even ‘I am done with this show’ disappointed. Sam needs to save his brother, I think that would go a long way to helping repair much of Sam’s self image and hangups, as well as showing Dean that Sam truly does love him, that Dean is important to him. But if this is achieved by Sam making the kind of deal for Dean that Dean made for Sam at the start of this season, I will never, never, NEVER forgive them. Ever.
When I watched the final scene for the second time I paused on Sam’s face just before he said “No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t.”
He looks so tired and sad and I think it’s because he can’t make Dean understand.
I think it all comes down to Sam being possessed/soulless/not in control of his own destiny. No free will. He would’ve preferred to die than be possessed again. And he wouldn’t wish that fate on Dean, so therefore he’d let Dean go.
I think Sam loves Dean so much that he wouldn’t want him to go through what he’s been through and so he’d let him die – to be at peace.
I think Dean loves Sam so much that he always wants to protect him/save him. As we know, it’s been ingrained in him since he carried his little brother out of the burning house.
It’s just that neither of them (at this moment) can understand the other’s POV.
When I paused on Sam’s face I saw no trace of anger or malice. I don’t think he was trying to hurt Dean at all. All I saw was resignation and sadness that Dean just doesn’t understand him.
Just my humble opinion.
When I watched the final scene for the second time I paused on Sam’s face just before he said “No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t.”
He looks so tired and sad and I think it’s because he can’t make Dean understand.
I think it all comes down to Sam being possessed/soulless/not in control of his own destiny. No free will. He would’ve preferred to die than be possessed again. And he wouldn’t wish that fate on Dean, so therefore he’d let Dean go.
I think Sam loves Dean so much that he wouldn’t want him to go through what he’s been through and so he’d let him die – to be at peace.
I think Dean loves Sam so much that he always wants to protect him/save him. As we know, it’s been ingrained in him since he carried his little brother out of the burning house.
It’s just that neither of them (at this moment) can understand the other’s POV.
When I paused on Sam’s face I saw no trace of anger or malice. I don’t think he was trying to hurt Dean at all. All I saw was resignation and sadness that Dean just doesn’t understand him.
Just my humble opinion.
I am undone. Totally undone. This show is killing me.
I am undone. Totally undone. This show is killing me.
Hard truths between brothers and shows how much Sam has matured, compared to Dean who still carries the same mindset. As much as the guys love each other, they are different people. It was drilled into Dean’s head from age 4 that his job is taking care of baby Sam. That kind of shit stays with you subconsciously into adulthood even when you want to consciously change it. Sam is tired of being the little brother always being looked after and he thought he had finally got Dean to realize that at the church. Sam is all grown up, able to make his own decisions and it’s like having a Living Will… He doesn’t want to be brought back like that and was ready to go. Dean didn’t respect that.
One last thought : IMO season 10 will be the last. There are a lot of episodes between now and then but these things we see happening now are moving things into place in preparation for the end. We might want to start preparing ourselves too.
Hard truths between brothers and shows how much Sam has matured, compared to Dean who still carries the same mindset. As much as the guys love each other, they are different people. It was drilled into Dean’s head from age 4 that his job is taking care of baby Sam. That kind of shit stays with you subconsciously into adulthood even when you want to consciously change it. Sam is tired of being the little brother always being looked after and he thought he had finally got Dean to realize that at the church. Sam is all grown up, able to make his own decisions and it’s like having a Living Will… He doesn’t want to be brought back like that and was ready to go. Dean didn’t respect that.
One last thought : IMO season 10 will be the last. There are a lot of episodes between now and then but these things we see happening now are moving things into place in preparation for the end. We might want to start preparing ourselves too.
The MOTW storyline was fine, but that’s two weeks in a row SPN has wrapped things up with a weakly written scene. I’m onboard with the intent of both conversations – after everything that’s happened between Sam and Dean, quick resolution would feel like a massive cheat – just not the execution. Both times, it’s like the emotional weight of the moment was sacrificed for the formulaic cliffhanger, the end result being that Sam comes across as a ‘real jerk’ (as JP tweeted) instead of a man justifiably hurt and angry and struggling to deal with everything that has happened to him. As happens too often with Sam, we get anger without proper context, while Dean, a man always ready with a comeback, who gets defensive when cornered, is left figuratively gaping like a goldfish. As a result, what should be a heart-wrenching scene instead rings hollow. It’s incredibly unsatisfying.
It’s also frustrating that after two episodes, we have next to no reaction from Sam on Dean’s Mark of Cain. The brothers’ relationship may be in tatters but Sam is functioning well as a hunter and I can’t buy that his insatiable curiosity and love of research wouldn’t have led him to dig into what the heck it is and what it means. Yes, yes, I know… the writers are saving that reveal for later but come on: drop some freaking crumbs. There was a perfect opening last night with Dean’s, “I may not think things all the way through, but what I do, I do because it’s the right thing,” – but no. Again, we get nothing.
The MOTW and mytharc threads should work like a double-dutch skipping rope: each thread independent, one moving to the foreground as the other moves to the back, but working seamlessly together and always in motion. Too often on SPN, one thread seems to be left idle, forgotten until needed several episodes later when it’s yanked back into the fray. Sigh….
During the show, writer Eric Charmelo tweeted ‘Break down to Rebuild.’ Fair enough; we’ve certainly got the breakdown. But as the rebuilding process begins, can we please do it with scenes that don’t rely on sentences that trail off into elipses. You know, because that’s just…. 🙂
I don’t like being a Negative Nellie, so on a positive note:
“You’re not the only one who dated someone bendy.” – Awesome line. LOL funny, great throwback to the show’s past and explains in all of three seconds why Sam can pass as a yoga instructor. Brilliant!
The MOTW storyline was fine, but that’s two weeks in a row SPN has wrapped things up with a weakly written scene. I’m onboard with the intent of both conversations – after everything that’s happened between Sam and Dean, quick resolution would feel like a massive cheat – just not the execution. Both times, it’s like the emotional weight of the moment was sacrificed for the formulaic cliffhanger, the end result being that Sam comes across as a ‘real jerk’ (as JP tweeted) instead of a man justifiably hurt and angry and struggling to deal with everything that has happened to him. As happens too often with Sam, we get anger without proper context, while Dean, a man always ready with a comeback, who gets defensive when cornered, is left figuratively gaping like a goldfish. As a result, what should be a heart-wrenching scene instead rings hollow. It’s incredibly unsatisfying.
It’s also frustrating that after two episodes, we have next to no reaction from Sam on Dean’s Mark of Cain. The brothers’ relationship may be in tatters but Sam is functioning well as a hunter and I can’t buy that his insatiable curiosity and love of research wouldn’t have led him to dig into what the heck it is and what it means. Yes, yes, I know… the writers are saving that reveal for later but come on: drop some freaking crumbs. There was a perfect opening last night with Dean’s, “I may not think things all the way through, but what I do, I do because it’s the right thing,” – but no. Again, we get nothing.
The MOTW and mytharc threads should work like a double-dutch skipping rope: each thread independent, one moving to the foreground as the other moves to the back, but working seamlessly together and always in motion. Too often on SPN, one thread seems to be left idle, forgotten until needed several episodes later when it’s yanked back into the fray. Sigh….
During the show, writer Eric Charmelo tweeted ‘Break down to Rebuild.’ Fair enough; we’ve certainly got the breakdown. But as the rebuilding process begins, can we please do it with scenes that don’t rely on sentences that trail off into elipses. You know, because that’s just…. 🙂
I don’t like being a Negative Nellie, so on a positive note:
“You’re not the only one who dated someone bendy.” – Awesome line. LOL funny, great throwback to the show’s past and explains in all of three seconds why Sam can pass as a yoga instructor. Brilliant!
This one was good as far as MOTW episodes, a pishtaco, or Peruvian Fat Sucker but I’ll go with Dean and call them fish tacos. And,on the bright side, no canon controversies this week because this is a new type of monster. The bad guy in the hair net was kind of predictable, though. And was anyone else waiting for someone to drop their pants and say PUDDING! ? On the bright side, at least Sam wasn’t sent out of the room while Dean had a meaningful conversation with another guest star 🙂
I am in complete agreement with Alice’s read on the situation between the brothers. The conversation at the end was brutal but necessary; you need to break things down completely in order to fix things. The brothers have completely different perceptions. I think Sam was waiting for Dean to “catch up”; that’s why he started to leave the room, but came back because he realized Dean wasn’t understanding Sam’s POV, and had to spell it out. Dean thought Sam should have been grateful for being “saved”. And, Sam was absolutely right, Dean did save Sam for himself, and not for Sam’s sake.
At first I thought we’re being set up for a situation where Sam will have to save Dean from something serious, probably having to do with the Mark of Cain. That’s still a strong possibility but I’m wondering if we’ll have a situation where Dean is possessed by something, either angelic or demonic? Dean has really never had his agency taken away like Sam did with Meg, Lucifer, and Gadreel. Sure, Dean has had moments of being possessed (spectre in Southern Comfort, wicked witch in Slumber Party), but has never had a time where his free will, his agency, was completely taken away from him. Perhaps that will allow him to understand where Sam is coming from, because right now they are miles apart.
This one was good as far as MOTW episodes, a pishtaco, or Peruvian Fat Sucker but I’ll go with Dean and call them fish tacos. And,on the bright side, no canon controversies this week because this is a new type of monster. The bad guy in the hair net was kind of predictable, though. And was anyone else waiting for someone to drop their pants and say PUDDING! ? On the bright side, at least Sam wasn’t sent out of the room while Dean had a meaningful conversation with another guest star 🙂
I am in complete agreement with Alice’s read on the situation between the brothers. The conversation at the end was brutal but necessary; you need to break things down completely in order to fix things. The brothers have completely different perceptions. I think Sam was waiting for Dean to “catch up”; that’s why he started to leave the room, but came back because he realized Dean wasn’t understanding Sam’s POV, and had to spell it out. Dean thought Sam should have been grateful for being “saved”. And, Sam was absolutely right, Dean did save Sam for himself, and not for Sam’s sake.
At first I thought we’re being set up for a situation where Sam will have to save Dean from something serious, probably having to do with the Mark of Cain. That’s still a strong possibility but I’m wondering if we’ll have a situation where Dean is possessed by something, either angelic or demonic? Dean has really never had his agency taken away like Sam did with Meg, Lucifer, and Gadreel. Sure, Dean has had moments of being possessed (spectre in Southern Comfort, wicked witch in Slumber Party), but has never had a time where his free will, his agency, was completely taken away from him. Perhaps that will allow him to understand where Sam is coming from, because right now they are miles apart.
Edited by Alice – Wow, that’s the first time in a very long time one comment has gotten multiple reports. The masses have spoken. Toxic attitudes and character insults are most certainly against the rules. It’s gone!
Edited by Alice – Wow, that’s the first time in a very long time one comment has gotten multiple reports. The masses have spoken. Toxic attitudes and character insults are most certainly against the rules. It’s gone!
Sam never said he wouldn’t save his brother from dying. He said if the same situation happened he wouldn’t save Dean. If Dean was ready to die and he didn’t want to be brought back in way that would cause more harm to innocent people he wouldn’t try to save him. Sam wouldn’t want that for Dean.
Sam never said he wouldn’t save his brother from dying. He said if the same situation happened he wouldn’t save Dean. If Dean was ready to die and he didn’t want to be brought back in way that would cause more harm to innocent people he wouldn’t try to save him. Sam wouldn’t want that for Dean.
Auggie – Well said. I agree from the bottom of my heart.
Auggie – Well said. I agree from the bottom of my heart.
Edited by Alice – no worries, the offending comment is gone. I’d rather not have a visible record of it. Thanks!
Edited by Alice – no worries, the offending comment is gone. I’d rather not have a visible record of it. Thanks!
“Fish Taco??”
That is all.
“Fish Taco??”
That is all.
You know in the episode when Sam was looking for Dean. He knew that Dean was in trouble and he was trying to save him. He left the monster. Of course Sam will always try to save Dean. He just won’t try to save him no matter the consequences. He wouldn’t do that to Dean.
You know in the episode when Sam was looking for Dean. He knew that Dean was in trouble and he was trying to save him. He left the monster. Of course Sam will always try to save Dean. He just won’t try to save him no matter the consequences. He wouldn’t do that to Dean.
I enjoyed the episode quite a lot, more than I expected to. Amid all this focus on the brothers, one thing that not many people have commented on was how much this episode could have been insensitive to plus-sized people (I believe the working title for this episode was “Let The Fat One In”, oy!), but I think it was done rather tastefully (if you can call sucking fat tasteful). The Sheriff’s sharing, in particular, was moving and relatable, so kudos for that, writers.
I personally don’t mind the brothers being at odds like this. To me, it was actually fun to watch them be passive aggressive with the snide comments and whatnot, since I feel many people do that (especially to their own family members). The final chat was difficult, yes, but again, there’s a degree of honesty and openness to it that makes me confident that this is going to lead to somewhere good for our boys. And I personally don’t mind watching this get stripped down even further before they rebuild. Bring it on!
I enjoyed the episode quite a lot, more than I expected to. Amid all this focus on the brothers, one thing that not many people have commented on was how much this episode could have been insensitive to plus-sized people (I believe the working title for this episode was “Let The Fat One In”, oy!), but I think it was done rather tastefully (if you can call sucking fat tasteful). The Sheriff’s sharing, in particular, was moving and relatable, so kudos for that, writers.
I personally don’t mind the brothers being at odds like this. To me, it was actually fun to watch them be passive aggressive with the snide comments and whatnot, since I feel many people do that (especially to their own family members). The final chat was difficult, yes, but again, there’s a degree of honesty and openness to it that makes me confident that this is going to lead to somewhere good for our boys. And I personally don’t mind watching this get stripped down even further before they rebuild. Bring it on!
I think it speaks volumes that Sam is past the point of sugar coating it for Dean. He’s tired and hurt and has to live with yet another innocent soul on his already overburdened conscience. And it doesn’t matter that Dean tells him it wasn’t his fault just as it doesn’t matter how many times Sam tells Dean he’s worthy of being saved.
How many times has Sam tried to tell Dean in the past that he doesn’t want him to put Sam’s life and needs in front of his own, that he needs to live for himself some, that he deserves it and has earned it. And how super pissed would Dean have been on the opposite end of that situation? Has he conveniently forgotten how he felt when he found out that some other guy had died in his place in “Faith”? And that wasn’t even someone they knew.
BOTH boys are hurt. BOTH of them have suffered and Sam wants Dean to quit bringing him back to find out how much more suffering he can take. Dean keeps telling him that the only thing that matters is that they’re family, but Sam no longer feels that THEIR family is more important than anyone else’s.
It isn’t about loving him less or not appreciating Dean’s sacrifices for him; it’s about finally accepting that the choices they make can’t just be about them anymore no matter how much it hurts to let the other one go.
I think it speaks volumes that Sam is past the point of sugar coating it for Dean. He’s tired and hurt and has to live with yet another innocent soul on his already overburdened conscience. And it doesn’t matter that Dean tells him it wasn’t his fault just as it doesn’t matter how many times Sam tells Dean he’s worthy of being saved.
How many times has Sam tried to tell Dean in the past that he doesn’t want him to put Sam’s life and needs in front of his own, that he needs to live for himself some, that he deserves it and has earned it. And how super pissed would Dean have been on the opposite end of that situation? Has he conveniently forgotten how he felt when he found out that some other guy had died in his place in “Faith”? And that wasn’t even someone they knew.
BOTH boys are hurt. BOTH of them have suffered and Sam wants Dean to quit bringing him back to find out how much more suffering he can take. Dean keeps telling him that the only thing that matters is that they’re family, but Sam no longer feels that THEIR family is more important than anyone else’s.
It isn’t about loving him less or not appreciating Dean’s sacrifices for him; it’s about finally accepting that the choices they make can’t just be about them anymore no matter how much it hurts to let the other one go.
As an episode: hilarious! As a MOTW: bogus. As a brotherly reconciliation: Finally! Sam gets to say what I’ve wanted him to say since he found out about his most recent possession. Sure he’s angry his body killed Kevin, he was kinda a mentor–not that the writers took quite as much advantage of that as they could have–but what really hurts was Dean didn’t honor his commitment to finish the trials. As I suspected Sam is questioning Deans motives. Was it out if love or loneliness? Me I think it was love as Dean deeply cares for Sam–his lifelong charge and only family left–but his view of his little brother is clouded BECAUSE he’s been Sams caretaker. Deans limited self worth is defined by being Sams badass big bro–who happens to be lucky with the ladies. He can’t see that his “pain in the ass little brother” has matured into a capable grown man who just wants some respect. Not only is Dean missing the mark his oh-so-very-articulate nature prohibits him from saying much of anything but sarcastic remarks. He’s hurting and that’s long been his coping mechanism–and it’s pissing Sam off.
Sam, I think, reads the sarcasm as sign–not just as Dean hurting but not changing either–and it’s frustrating him more than how condescensing the words are Dean is saying. Regardless, Sam respects Deans choices even when he doesn’t like them (“I don’t care how you deal I really don’t just don’t die.” Or “Dean you’ve pulled some real shady stuff but this–” when he was the one who sent Dean to Lisa so his brother wouldn’t have to be alone when he was gone in the pit–and yet that’s the point. Sam felt responsible for letting lucifer out when it was an equal fault and Dean respected him enough to let him go and end the game. Dean stopping Sam from closing the gates is a back-step character wise for Dean. Sam wants that respect back. He isn’t soulless, hallucinating, or depressed over a lost girlfriend anymore. He is tired of Dean babying him, but NOT of Dean himself as so many folks have freaked out over last week. Cut the guy a break its not his fault his lines are strained at best, but then their ironclad bond is strained how else could the dialog go down?
The last lines stung more this week. Last week we got Deans honesty and Sam reciprocated: “we split the crappy.” It was a humorously accurate response and proved he listened, understood, and cared. This week Sam stops immediately and goes looking for a drugged Dean. We’ll need that mentality soon because I have the sneaking suspicion that whole “no Dean I wouldn’t” is going to tear Dean down more than anything this else has this season. It might be such a devastating blow Dean embraces even the Mark.
As an episode: hilarious! As a MOTW: bogus. As a brotherly reconciliation: Finally! Sam gets to say what I’ve wanted him to say since he found out about his most recent possession. Sure he’s angry his body killed Kevin, he was kinda a mentor–not that the writers took quite as much advantage of that as they could have–but what really hurts was Dean didn’t honor his commitment to finish the trials. As I suspected Sam is questioning Deans motives. Was it out if love or loneliness? Me I think it was love as Dean deeply cares for Sam–his lifelong charge and only family left–but his view of his little brother is clouded BECAUSE he’s been Sams caretaker. Deans limited self worth is defined by being Sams badass big bro–who happens to be lucky with the ladies. He can’t see that his “pain in the ass little brother” has matured into a capable grown man who just wants some respect. Not only is Dean missing the mark his oh-so-very-articulate nature prohibits him from saying much of anything but sarcastic remarks. He’s hurting and that’s long been his coping mechanism–and it’s pissing Sam off.
Sam, I think, reads the sarcasm as sign–not just as Dean hurting but not changing either–and it’s frustrating him more than how condescensing the words are Dean is saying. Regardless, Sam respects Deans choices even when he doesn’t like them (“I don’t care how you deal I really don’t just don’t die.” Or “Dean you’ve pulled some real shady stuff but this–” when he was the one who sent Dean to Lisa so his brother wouldn’t have to be alone when he was gone in the pit–and yet that’s the point. Sam felt responsible for letting lucifer out when it was an equal fault and Dean respected him enough to let him go and end the game. Dean stopping Sam from closing the gates is a back-step character wise for Dean. Sam wants that respect back. He isn’t soulless, hallucinating, or depressed over a lost girlfriend anymore. He is tired of Dean babying him, but NOT of Dean himself as so many folks have freaked out over last week. Cut the guy a break its not his fault his lines are strained at best, but then their ironclad bond is strained how else could the dialog go down?
The last lines stung more this week. Last week we got Deans honesty and Sam reciprocated: “we split the crappy.” It was a humorously accurate response and proved he listened, understood, and cared. This week Sam stops immediately and goes looking for a drugged Dean. We’ll need that mentality soon because I have the sneaking suspicion that whole “no Dean I wouldn’t” is going to tear Dean down more than anything this else has this season. It might be such a devastating blow Dean embraces even the Mark.
#34 “One last thought : IMO season 10 will be the last. There are a lot of episodes between now and then but these things we see happening now are moving things into place in preparation for the end. We might want to start preparing ourselves too.”
I’ve been thinking this for awhile this season, but I didn’t have the guts to vocalize it outloud to myself or type it here. But I have a sneaking suspicion you are right. The writer/cast meeting after BurCon may have been their discussion of the END.
#34 “One last thought : IMO season 10 will be the last. There are a lot of episodes between now and then but these things we see happening now are moving things into place in preparation for the end. We might want to start preparing ourselves too.”
I’ve been thinking this for awhile this season, but I didn’t have the guts to vocalize it outloud to myself or type it here. But I have a sneaking suspicion you are right. The writer/cast meeting after BurCon may have been their discussion of the END.
😐 🙁 😥 😮
😐 🙁 😥 😮
[quote name=”nappi815″] 😀
yes it hurt for dean to hear, but the truth often is. it had to be said. it’s time for the boys to have a functional loving brother relationship instead of this dysfunctional one that always leads to eventual suffering. a smothering love in not a healthy love.
first off let me just say that that conversation in no way made sam seem like he doesn’t love his brother, that he wouldn’t do anything to protect him and wouldn’t jump in front of a bullet for him. sam would die for him, of this i have no doubt. what sam was telling dean was if it were him in the exact circumstances, even if sam had gone as far as dean did in asking for a favor from the angels, if sam had heard dean’s conversation with death and sam understood that his brother had accepted death and didn’t want anyone else hurt because of him so it stays permanent, sam would never have overridden dean’s decision. he would’ve respected it. he would’ve let his brother go and not because he doesn’t love his brother less, but because he loves his brother more than himself.
secondly, i agree that with those who say history plays a part in sam’s decision. everything up to this point has brought the boys to where they are and how they think. the past is important. i’m in s3 now and as i rewatch all these eps i am reminded of all the events and conversations bet sam and dean. for example: sam watching dean all twisted and broken when his father sold his soul for him; listening to dean go on about how what’s dead should stay dead, that him being back was unnatural. dean doing the same thing to sam, telling him that it’s ok that he did because of what he’d done for his family; sam twisting during every episode of s3 trying to save dean and dean stopping him at every turn; telling sam in bedtime stories that he should let him go. being angry with sam when he thought sam got him out of hell telling him he didn’t want to get out that way since dean thought sam made a deal. dean’s willingness and eagerness to always sacrifice himself. bobby’s last words to sam and dean, when it’s your time to go go. the agreement between the boys. sam has taken so much into consideration. in s8 when he thought dean was dead, he kept his promise. it broke him. he imploded and ran away from his life. he couldn’t deal with any kind of responsibility. dean’s death affected him in the most negative way possible, but sam respected dean’s wishes that he made clear over the years. it hurt like hell, but he loved his brother enough to let him go.
now sam is telling dean that in those duplicate circumstances sam would honor dean’s wishes. it would hurt like hell. sam would grieve all over again, but sam would not override dean’s decision to die because it hurts sam too much. the way i see it that’s how much sam loves dean.
sam and dean are wired differently. sam has always had faith. sam’s seen heaven. he knows it’s real. he knows who is there. maybe sam’s faith makes it easier for him to accept his own death. dean seems to be able to accept his own death, but i’m not sure it has anything to do with faith. for him it seems more of an inevitable ending to life as a hunter. it’s my hope that sam will come to make dean understand his worth. maybe this seems like a harsh approach to some. but to me sam’s willingness to accept dean’s wishes, to let him go if dean really wanted to, to love him enough to set him free if that’s indeed what dean wanted is proof enough to dean how much sam does in fact love his brother and values his worth, even if dean doesn’t seem to be able to.[/quote]
Exactly my take on the episode. Sam wants Dean to realize what he did was wrong. In order to get there he has to give him clues from time to time. Dean has to get there on his own which IMO is why we are getting this dialog in bits and pieces.
I believe Sam would take a bullet for Dean. What he won’t do is take his agency away from him. Remember how po’d Dean was when John did that to him? Then he did the same to Sam in AHBL but expected Sam to accept what he couldn’t. Dean has a huge double standard and that is what I think Sam needs him to understand. He needs to see Sam’s POV for a change and not just his own.
All in all, I liked the episode because this conversation should have taken place after AHBL IMO. It was a loooong time coming.
[quote] 😀
yes it hurt for dean to hear, but the truth often is. it had to be said. it’s time for the boys to have a functional loving brother relationship instead of this dysfunctional one that always leads to eventual suffering. a smothering love in not a healthy love.
first off let me just say that that conversation in no way made sam seem like he doesn’t love his brother, that he wouldn’t do anything to protect him and wouldn’t jump in front of a bullet for him. sam would die for him, of this i have no doubt. what sam was telling dean was if it were him in the exact circumstances, even if sam had gone as far as dean did in asking for a favor from the angels, if sam had heard dean’s conversation with death and sam understood that his brother had accepted death and didn’t want anyone else hurt because of him so it stays permanent, sam would never have overridden dean’s decision. he would’ve respected it. he would’ve let his brother go and not because he doesn’t love his brother less, but because he loves his brother more than himself.
secondly, i agree that with those who say history plays a part in sam’s decision. everything up to this point has brought the boys to where they are and how they think. the past is important. i’m in s3 now and as i rewatch all these eps i am reminded of all the events and conversations bet sam and dean. for example: sam watching dean all twisted and broken when his father sold his soul for him; listening to dean go on about how what’s dead should stay dead, that him being back was unnatural. dean doing the same thing to sam, telling him that it’s ok that he did because of what he’d done for his family; sam twisting during every episode of s3 trying to save dean and dean stopping him at every turn; telling sam in bedtime stories that he should let him go. being angry with sam when he thought sam got him out of hell telling him he didn’t want to get out that way since dean thought sam made a deal. dean’s willingness and eagerness to always sacrifice himself. bobby’s last words to sam and dean, when it’s your time to go go. the agreement between the boys. sam has taken so much into consideration. in s8 when he thought dean was dead, he kept his promise. it broke him. he imploded and ran away from his life. he couldn’t deal with any kind of responsibility. dean’s death affected him in the most negative way possible, but sam respected dean’s wishes that he made clear over the years. it hurt like hell, but he loved his brother enough to let him go.
now sam is telling dean that in those duplicate circumstances sam would honor dean’s wishes. it would hurt like hell. sam would grieve all over again, but sam would not override dean’s decision to die because it hurts sam too much. the way i see it that’s how much sam loves dean.
sam and dean are wired differently. sam has always had faith. sam’s seen heaven. he knows it’s real. he knows who is there. maybe sam’s faith makes it easier for him to accept his own death. dean seems to be able to accept his own death, but i’m not sure it has anything to do with faith. for him it seems more of an inevitable ending to life as a hunter. it’s my hope that sam will come to make dean understand his worth. maybe this seems like a harsh approach to some. but to me sam’s willingness to accept dean’s wishes, to let him go if dean really wanted to, to love him enough to set him free if that’s indeed what dean wanted is proof enough to dean how much sam does in fact love his brother and values his worth, even if dean doesn’t seem to be able to.[/quote]
Exactly my take on the episode. Sam wants Dean to realize what he did was wrong. In order to get there he has to give him clues from time to time. Dean has to get there on his own which IMO is why we are getting this dialog in bits and pieces.
I believe Sam would take a bullet for Dean. What he won’t do is take his agency away from him. Remember how po’d Dean was when John did that to him? Then he did the same to Sam in AHBL but expected Sam to accept what he couldn’t. Dean has a huge double standard and that is what I think Sam needs him to understand. He needs to see Sam’s POV for a change and not just his own.
All in all, I liked the episode because this conversation should have taken place after AHBL IMO. It was a loooong time coming.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]:-| 🙁 😥 :eek:[/quote]
😕 😮 🙁
[quote]:-| 🙁 😥 :eek:[/quote]
😕 😮 🙁
@37 & 39
[quote]Hey before you go, could you do one last good deed for, he-who-you-are- working-with and find a rogue reaper to retrieve a loyal, friendly vampire from Purgatory? [/quote]
Isn’t this the problem in the first place??
Do you think that Dean should actually [i]ask[/i] that ‘loyal, friendly vampire from Purgatory’ if he [i]wants[/i] to be retrieved from Purgatory? If was, after all, his decision to go back, and to stay there.
And if Dean asks and Benny says ‘Nope, I want to stay here’ then do you think Dean should retrieve him anyway? And if Dean decides to do just that, would Benny be justified if he’s angry at Dean?
@37 & 39
[quote]Hey before you go, could you do one last good deed for, he-who-you-are- working-with and find a rogue reaper to retrieve a loyal, friendly vampire from Purgatory? [/quote]
Isn’t this the problem in the first place??
Do you think that Dean should actually [i]ask[/i] that ‘loyal, friendly vampire from Purgatory’ if he [i]wants[/i] to be retrieved from Purgatory? If was, after all, his decision to go back, and to stay there.
And if Dean asks and Benny says ‘Nope, I want to stay here’ then do you think Dean should retrieve him anyway? And if Dean decides to do just that, would Benny be justified if he’s angry at Dean?
[quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@37 & 39
[quote]Hey before you go, could you do one last good deed for, he-who-you-are- working-with and find a rogue reaper to retrieve a loyal, friendly vampire from Purgatory? [/quote]
Isn’t this the problem in the first place??
Do you think that Dean should actually [i]ask[/i] that ‘loyal, friendly vampire from Purgatory’ if he [i]wants[/i] to be retrieved from Purgatory? If was, after all, his decision to go back, and to stay there.
And if Dean asks and Benny says ‘Nope, I want to stay here’ then do you think Dean should retrieve him anyway? And if Dean decides to do just that, would Benny be justified if he’s angry at Dean?[/quote]
Excellent point, Tim the Enchanter.
[quote]@37 & 39
[quote]Hey before you go, could you do one last good deed for, he-who-you-are- working-with and find a rogue reaper to retrieve a loyal, friendly vampire from Purgatory? [/quote]
Isn’t this the problem in the first place??
Do you think that Dean should actually [i]ask[/i] that ‘loyal, friendly vampire from Purgatory’ if he [i]wants[/i] to be retrieved from Purgatory? If was, after all, his decision to go back, and to stay there.
And if Dean asks and Benny says ‘Nope, I want to stay here’ then do you think Dean should retrieve him anyway? And if Dean decides to do just that, would Benny be justified if he’s angry at Dean?[/quote]
Excellent point, Tim the Enchanter.
I’m sorry I know that Benny was a popular character and all but what did he do for Dean when he was topside other than constantly ask for Dean’s help? I don’t recall, other than wanting to go back to purgatory and in the process saving Sam, Benny ever doing anything for Dean. He wasn’t the one fighting at Dean’s side that was Sam. As in this episode and it looks like the next Sam is still at Dean’s side right where he wants to be and right where Dean wants him.
I’m sorry I know that Benny was a popular character and all but what did he do for Dean when he was topside other than constantly ask for Dean’s help? I don’t recall, other than wanting to go back to purgatory and in the process saving Sam, Benny ever doing anything for Dean. He wasn’t the one fighting at Dean’s side that was Sam. As in this episode and it looks like the next Sam is still at Dean’s side right where he wants to be and right where Dean wants him.
I’m a hardcore Dean girl. But in a first, I get Sam. Here’s why I think he’s not as selfish as some of us thought he is, and how “not saving Dean” might be the thing that saves their brotherhood/love: http://storify.com/pakinamamer/my-thoughts-on-sam-dean-9-13-bro-conversation
(the link puts together some of my tweets re this episode + excerpts from reviews + comments from other fans + my own musings and reflections). #supernatural #spn #feels
I’m a hardcore Dean girl. But in a first, I get Sam. Here’s why I think he’s not as selfish as some of us thought he is, and how “not saving Dean” might be the thing that saves their brotherhood/love: http://storify.com/pakinamamer/my-thoughts-on-sam-dean-9-13-bro-conversation
(the link puts together some of my tweets re this episode + excerpts from reviews + comments from other fans + my own musings and reflections). #supernatural #spn #feels
Ok, so was Sam harsh, his words punishing, perhaps even a little bitter, touch malicious? Sure. And it makes sense, because he’s hurting. I’m not saying he doesn’t mean what he said. I believe he means every single word, 100%.
But he’s a little reckless with his words, choosing to ignore the destructive effect they may have on his brother, and that’s definitely a little vindictive and angry. And it comes from a dark place, where Sam himself seems to be currently stranded.
In an interview quoted in E! Jared Padalecki explains it elaborately: “”One of the things that I don’t like in TV or movies is when someone is hurt and it’s like, Oh, no that’s okay, let’s carry on … I like to see, as in reality, people working through things. Like you know what, that messed me up so I’m going to hurt you back and then they kind of figure out what’s what. Like you are with your family, your friends, your bosses, people you work with. You know, it’s difficult to just have someone just go, ‘Okay, give me a hug.'” So I like that the writers are having a chance to really delve into the disagreements Sam and Dean have.”
Ok, so was Sam harsh, his words punishing, perhaps even a little bitter, touch malicious? Sure. And it makes sense, because he’s hurting. I’m not saying he doesn’t mean what he said. I believe he means every single word, 100%.
But he’s a little reckless with his words, choosing to ignore the destructive effect they may have on his brother, and that’s definitely a little vindictive and angry. And it comes from a dark place, where Sam himself seems to be currently stranded.
In an interview quoted in E! Jared Padalecki explains it elaborately: “”One of the things that I don’t like in TV or movies is when someone is hurt and it’s like, Oh, no that’s okay, let’s carry on … I like to see, as in reality, people working through things. Like you know what, that messed me up so I’m going to hurt you back and then they kind of figure out what’s what. Like you are with your family, your friends, your bosses, people you work with. You know, it’s difficult to just have someone just go, ‘Okay, give me a hug.'” So I like that the writers are having a chance to really delve into the disagreements Sam and Dean have.”
… And the hurt Sam feels is complex: 1. He let people down, including Kevin (the guilt is multiplied, since he’d already failed Kevin when Dean was holed up in purgatory, and he let Kevin be on his own).
2. He feels he’d been betrayed by his brother when Dean refused to let him decide his own destiny. He feels he can’t be trusted. So we’re back to that inferiority complex again where Sam feels that even people who know him most cannot lean or count on him, cannot even trust him with some control over his own life or death. Even that choice is not his. Any promises Dean made in that church were thrown out of the window, and now it looks to him like Dean was just babying him to turn him back on his heels.
3. Which is probably why he now thinks Dean is doing it (saving him over and over again) just cos he’s selfish, cos he doesn’t want to be alone. According to Sam’s logic-emotional mind now, “I cannot be trusted. I’m not an equal. My brother needs me only because he doesn’t want to be alone. Not because I’m worthy of being saved. Not because I’m useful.” He probably feels disposable.
4. He’s also just fully realized how gravely his own choices and his brothers’ have affected other people/heaven/hell. And it feels their choice to choose each other was ridiculously self-serving. And for the righteous Sam, who didn’t want this life to begin with, all these failures and collateral damage renders his past sacrifices meaningless. If all their choices led to this –heaven in turmoil, friends dead, and gates of hell wide open– then what was the point of all their pain and suffering, and all the losses they sustained? Nothing.
And that must hurt. So damn much.
Maybe it’s even more complicated than that in Sam’s head.
“It’s more emotional than literal and physical, but he certainly is still feeling the bruises,” Padalecki told TVLine this week of the effect of Gadreel’s affair on Sam.
And maybe I’m wrong, and maybe he doesn’t mean it when he says he wouldn’t choose his brother over the fate of the world, or when other lives are at stake. Talk is cheap. Perhaps when push comes to shove, and the situation is indeed reversed, he won’t be able to let his brother go (though I do hope, he does. Cos someone needs to end that cycle).
Let’s not forget that Sam is not unlike his father; something that Dean himself had pointed out in earlier seasons, saying that Sam is most like their dad (while they burned Adam’s corpse / season 5). Sam said he took it as a compliment, Dean didn’t know what to make of it, but he knew it, Sam is more like John than Dean would ever be.
And what had his father done before? Well, he took the moral highground in Season 1 and lectured Sam repeatedly on how ending the Yellow Eyed Demon even when it compromised family came first. He scolded Sam for not shooting him when he was possessed by YED, even went as far as blaming Sam for Dean’s condition in In My Time of Dying, told him that if he’d shot the demon (even if it meant killing John), his brother would be alive, not lying half-dead in the other room, and his mother would be avenged. They fought, Sam told him to go to hell.
But …
When it was up to John, he couldn’t make the decision he so wanted Sam to make. He not only put down his life to save Dean (essentially putting family above all), but he also handed the Colt to YED, compromising his own sons in the process. One could argue, it was a very selfish decision.
Their mom, Mary, once made a similar mistake, that one might also argue is the reason the brothers are in this terrible mess more than three decades later. To get John back, she made a deal with YED, back in the 70s (1979?); she’d let him in Sammy’s room five years later, if he brought John back then. It was another bad decision; it seems this family is not immune to them.
When it comes down to Sam, will he be able to stir the destiny of this family towards something else, perhaps make the “right” decision, and put family second when bigger things (the fate of the world even) is at stake? I hope so. Not just for the world. But for the brothers too. Maybe this will be the thing that finally fixes them.
To read the rest of my thoughts + my reax tweet, check my Storify post: http://storify.com/pakinamamer/my-thoughts-on-sam-dean-9-13-bro-conversation
… And the hurt Sam feels is complex: 1. He let people down, including Kevin (the guilt is multiplied, since he’d already failed Kevin when Dean was holed up in purgatory, and he let Kevin be on his own).
2. He feels he’d been betrayed by his brother when Dean refused to let him decide his own destiny. He feels he can’t be trusted. So we’re back to that inferiority complex again where Sam feels that even people who know him most cannot lean or count on him, cannot even trust him with some control over his own life or death. Even that choice is not his. Any promises Dean made in that church were thrown out of the window, and now it looks to him like Dean was just babying him to turn him back on his heels.
3. Which is probably why he now thinks Dean is doing it (saving him over and over again) just cos he’s selfish, cos he doesn’t want to be alone. According to Sam’s logic-emotional mind now, “I cannot be trusted. I’m not an equal. My brother needs me only because he doesn’t want to be alone. Not because I’m worthy of being saved. Not because I’m useful.” He probably feels disposable.
4. He’s also just fully realized how gravely his own choices and his brothers’ have affected other people/heaven/hell. And it feels their choice to choose each other was ridiculously self-serving. And for the righteous Sam, who didn’t want this life to begin with, all these failures and collateral damage renders his past sacrifices meaningless. If all their choices led to this –heaven in turmoil, friends dead, and gates of hell wide open– then what was the point of all their pain and suffering, and all the losses they sustained? Nothing.
And that must hurt. So damn much.
Maybe it’s even more complicated than that in Sam’s head.
“It’s more emotional than literal and physical, but he certainly is still feeling the bruises,” Padalecki told TVLine this week of the effect of Gadreel’s affair on Sam.
And maybe I’m wrong, and maybe he doesn’t mean it when he says he wouldn’t choose his brother over the fate of the world, or when other lives are at stake. Talk is cheap. Perhaps when push comes to shove, and the situation is indeed reversed, he won’t be able to let his brother go (though I do hope, he does. Cos someone needs to end that cycle).
Let’s not forget that Sam is not unlike his father; something that Dean himself had pointed out in earlier seasons, saying that Sam is most like their dad (while they burned Adam’s corpse / season 5). Sam said he took it as a compliment, Dean didn’t know what to make of it, but he knew it, Sam is more like John than Dean would ever be.
And what had his father done before? Well, he took the moral highground in Season 1 and lectured Sam repeatedly on how ending the Yellow Eyed Demon even when it compromised family came first. He scolded Sam for not shooting him when he was possessed by YED, even went as far as blaming Sam for Dean’s condition in In My Time of Dying, told him that if he’d shot the demon (even if it meant killing John), his brother would be alive, not lying half-dead in the other room, and his mother would be avenged. They fought, Sam told him to go to hell.
But …
When it was up to John, he couldn’t make the decision he so wanted Sam to make. He not only put down his life to save Dean (essentially putting family above all), but he also handed the Colt to YED, compromising his own sons in the process. One could argue, it was a very selfish decision.
Their mom, Mary, once made a similar mistake, that one might also argue is the reason the brothers are in this terrible mess more than three decades later. To get John back, she made a deal with YED, back in the 70s (1979?); she’d let him in Sammy’s room five years later, if he brought John back then. It was another bad decision; it seems this family is not immune to them.
When it comes down to Sam, will he be able to stir the destiny of this family towards something else, perhaps make the “right” decision, and put family second when bigger things (the fate of the world even) is at stake? I hope so. Not just for the world. But for the brothers too. Maybe this will be the thing that finally fixes them.
To read the rest of my thoughts + my reax tweet, check my Storify post: http://storify.com/pakinamamer/my-thoughts-on-sam-dean-9-13-bro-conversation
I’m too upset to post a coherent reply, but I agree with #3 – JJ and #4 – Deliamirandola.
Right now I feel I’m watching Soulless Sam rather than the Sammy I’ve known for many years. A short while ago, Sam was sobbing about how Dean was replacing him with Benny or Cas, and now he doesn’t want him to be his brother or his family? How does that reconcile? Did Gadreel take his soul when he departed the body?
Also, Sam wanted to take on the trials because he wanted to live and show Dean how to succeed and live instead of dying for the cause. Now, he wanted to die so bad he is devastating his brother with “truths”. I think Sam was in a coma when Dean let Gadreel possess Sam as his last resort to save him and the next of kin can decide on life support or not. In his vision or dream or whatever it was, Sam decided he would live.
Dean is so f***ed up now I wouldn’t be surprised if he becomes extra careless and reckless in the hunts perhaps hoping to receive a death blow from the MOTW. I think back to Azazel’s words from season one. “They don’t need you. Not like you need them!” Hurt much? 😥
Will we EVER hear “Bitch!” and “Jerk!” again? 😕
I just hope the writers have it all figured out.
Still not and never ever tuning out and still loving the heck out of the poor shmucks! 😛
I love the co-dependent unhealthy relationship of the brothers that drew me in and kept me watching and caring (really caring) about them. I’m not happy with the writers’ take on this maturity thing. I don’t want the brothers to become what every other show and police procedural is like…..that’s just boring and more of the same.
For not being coherent, I’ve said a lot and I apologize. 😮 😉
I’m too upset to post a coherent reply, but I agree with #3 – JJ and #4 – Deliamirandola.
Right now I feel I’m watching Soulless Sam rather than the Sammy I’ve known for many years. A short while ago, Sam was sobbing about how Dean was replacing him with Benny or Cas, and now he doesn’t want him to be his brother or his family? How does that reconcile? Did Gadreel take his soul when he departed the body?
Also, Sam wanted to take on the trials because he wanted to live and show Dean how to succeed and live instead of dying for the cause. Now, he wanted to die so bad he is devastating his brother with “truths”. I think Sam was in a coma when Dean let Gadreel possess Sam as his last resort to save him and the next of kin can decide on life support or not. In his vision or dream or whatever it was, Sam decided he would live.
Dean is so f***ed up now I wouldn’t be surprised if he becomes extra careless and reckless in the hunts perhaps hoping to receive a death blow from the MOTW. I think back to Azazel’s words from season one. “They don’t need you. Not like you need them!” Hurt much? 😥
Will we EVER hear “Bitch!” and “Jerk!” again? 😕
I just hope the writers have it all figured out.
Still not and never ever tuning out and still loving the heck out of the poor shmucks! 😛
I love the co-dependent unhealthy relationship of the brothers that drew me in and kept me watching and caring (really caring) about them. I’m not happy with the writers’ take on this maturity thing. I don’t want the brothers to become what every other show and police procedural is like…..that’s just boring and more of the same.
For not being coherent, I’ve said a lot and I apologize. 😮 😉
Now before I go on, I’d like to comment on two claims the fans and Dean girls/boys keep bringing up to prove Sam is a “worthless bastard who doesn’t deserve his brother’s love” and that of course they’re not surprised Sam wouldn’t “have his brother’s back.”
1. First claim – Sam didn’t look for Dean in purgatory, and chose “normal” or a “girl” over him: Trust me, it took me most of season 8, and an entire hiatus after to wrap my head around Sam’s decision to lay off, and drop the hunter’s life, and not look back. I don’t think I understand it completely, even now. But let’s review some facts …
Sam didn’t look for Dean from day 1. He met the girl three months later after his brother vanished, AFTER he had made a decision to let him go. So it was neither for “normal” nor for “a girl and a dog.” He said his world has imploded after he lost Dean. God knows where his head was at. And Amelia (I hate her too fyi) was like a lifeline, and he held on to it. It’d be heartless to blame him for that.
He was only with Amelia for a few months before her thought-to-be-dead husband resurfaced, and Sam was left alone again. That didn’t change anything. He still didn’t look for Dean. His cell phones were still off. He was still off hunting. So one could easily argue, these decisions were divorced from his short-lived relationship with Amelia.
His year away from Dean didn’t seem “happy” … even the way he explains how he was “happy” with her sounded miserable. There’s probably a reason why the flashbacks with Amelia were over-saturated with color, almost like a dream, like an elaborate illusion. Something fragile.
Sam wasn’t exactly happy, I think. The truth is: the little brother who wanted so much to take the wheel, be his own boss, and hated his big brother’s co-dependency simply couldn’t function without him … but he also couldn’t afford to make stupid decisions (like making deals, following shady characters, etc. He learned from his demon-addiction experience). There was no one around him to give him any hat tips or hints. So he stayed put. In other words, without his brother, or the right connections, he couldn’t trust himself to do the right thing. That’s big. That takes courage to acknowledge, even if that was done on a sub-conscious level. It also produces a lot of pain.
Does dropping Kevin seem like a rational thing to do? Something that someone like Sam, righteous and compassionate, would do? No, but he did it. Because he was at rock bottom. He was disenchanted. It didn’t come from a place of empowerment, but from weakness; from the idea inside Sam’s head that Sam on his own cannot be counted on, or trusted. That he fucked up. And that he’s bound to fuck up again if he tries to fix things. So he let other people deal with the ghosts, and demons, and world’s end. And his brother? Last time he tried to avenge him, put his heart on a sleeve, and followed his own head, he started the apocalypse. So maybe his big brother was better off without Sam’s help (or so Sam thought). Or perhaps like Sam said, he simply didn’t know where to start, or secretly was so self-loathing, full of doubt, that he couldn’t pluck up enough will/energy to start anywhere. He was spent.
On the surface, he might have justified it differently; by saying he wanted normal, or hunting only brought him misery, or that he’s not the only hunter in the world. But even if there’s a grain of truth there, and there probably is, it’s not the whole truth. He probably doesn’t understand the depth of it himself.
When Dean was back, when Sam had his anchor again, he chose hunting and being with Dean over Amelia. And that was that.
Now before I go on, I’d like to comment on two claims the fans and Dean girls/boys keep bringing up to prove Sam is a “worthless bastard who doesn’t deserve his brother’s love” and that of course they’re not surprised Sam wouldn’t “have his brother’s back.”
1. First claim – Sam didn’t look for Dean in purgatory, and chose “normal” or a “girl” over him: Trust me, it took me most of season 8, and an entire hiatus after to wrap my head around Sam’s decision to lay off, and drop the hunter’s life, and not look back. I don’t think I understand it completely, even now. But let’s review some facts …
Sam didn’t look for Dean from day 1. He met the girl three months later after his brother vanished, AFTER he had made a decision to let him go. So it was neither for “normal” nor for “a girl and a dog.” He said his world has imploded after he lost Dean. God knows where his head was at. And Amelia (I hate her too fyi) was like a lifeline, and he held on to it. It’d be heartless to blame him for that.
He was only with Amelia for a few months before her thought-to-be-dead husband resurfaced, and Sam was left alone again. That didn’t change anything. He still didn’t look for Dean. His cell phones were still off. He was still off hunting. So one could easily argue, these decisions were divorced from his short-lived relationship with Amelia.
His year away from Dean didn’t seem “happy” … even the way he explains how he was “happy” with her sounded miserable. There’s probably a reason why the flashbacks with Amelia were over-saturated with color, almost like a dream, like an elaborate illusion. Something fragile.
Sam wasn’t exactly happy, I think. The truth is: the little brother who wanted so much to take the wheel, be his own boss, and hated his big brother’s co-dependency simply couldn’t function without him … but he also couldn’t afford to make stupid decisions (like making deals, following shady characters, etc. He learned from his demon-addiction experience). There was no one around him to give him any hat tips or hints. So he stayed put. In other words, without his brother, or the right connections, he couldn’t trust himself to do the right thing. That’s big. That takes courage to acknowledge, even if that was done on a sub-conscious level. It also produces a lot of pain.
Does dropping Kevin seem like a rational thing to do? Something that someone like Sam, righteous and compassionate, would do? No, but he did it. Because he was at rock bottom. He was disenchanted. It didn’t come from a place of empowerment, but from weakness; from the idea inside Sam’s head that Sam on his own cannot be counted on, or trusted. That he fucked up. And that he’s bound to fuck up again if he tries to fix things. So he let other people deal with the ghosts, and demons, and world’s end. And his brother? Last time he tried to avenge him, put his heart on a sleeve, and followed his own head, he started the apocalypse. So maybe his big brother was better off without Sam’s help (or so Sam thought). Or perhaps like Sam said, he simply didn’t know where to start, or secretly was so self-loathing, full of doubt, that he couldn’t pluck up enough will/energy to start anywhere. He was spent.
On the surface, he might have justified it differently; by saying he wanted normal, or hunting only brought him misery, or that he’s not the only hunter in the world. But even if there’s a grain of truth there, and there probably is, it’s not the whole truth. He probably doesn’t understand the depth of it himself.
When Dean was back, when Sam had his anchor again, he chose hunting and being with Dean over Amelia. And that was that.
2. Second claim – Sam won’t have his brother’s back, Dean is on his own: Sam didn’t say he’s not having his brother’s back (where’s this coming from?!) … Why do you think Sam stayed in this “strictly business” relationship with his brother? Sure, a big part of it is because he felt responsible for the mess they’ve made, and they gotta clean it up together. But I suspect a small part has to do with looking out for his brother, who (again) is on a one-way kamikaze trip. They’re having major issues, but Sam made the choice which Dean had failed to do back in Season 5 initially when the tables were turned, and Dean couldn’t trust his brother. Sam stayed. If this is not “fighting” for Dean, then I don’t know what is. Yes, his feelings are clouded by hurt and anger. But essentially, he’s working at it. He’s being honest, pushing where it hurts, not backing away from a confrontation with his brother, but he’s not leaving either. In fact, he didn’t think twice about getting into that car at the end of 9.12 “Sharp Teeth.” It was a done deal. He was not cutting Dean out. Emotionally, he can’t connect to him. But he’s not abandoning him either.
Although it’s always Dean who’s being accused of being emotionally inept, it’s Sam that often finds it hard to communicate how he feels, and I think he bottles up more than lets through. And that’s why he gets misunderstood a lot.
Now, is Dean on his own? Well, maybe he should be. Maybe that’s his own personal trial. Perhaps it’s the curse of Cain. Maybe a la’ The Hero With The A Thousand Faces he must be ‘abandoned’ in a manner of speaking, he must lose all allies and support systems, to be able to face the monster, and more profoundly, face himself.
2. Second claim – Sam won’t have his brother’s back, Dean is on his own: Sam didn’t say he’s not having his brother’s back (where’s this coming from?!) … Why do you think Sam stayed in this “strictly business” relationship with his brother? Sure, a big part of it is because he felt responsible for the mess they’ve made, and they gotta clean it up together. But I suspect a small part has to do with looking out for his brother, who (again) is on a one-way kamikaze trip. They’re having major issues, but Sam made the choice which Dean had failed to do back in Season 5 initially when the tables were turned, and Dean couldn’t trust his brother. Sam stayed. If this is not “fighting” for Dean, then I don’t know what is. Yes, his feelings are clouded by hurt and anger. But essentially, he’s working at it. He’s being honest, pushing where it hurts, not backing away from a confrontation with his brother, but he’s not leaving either. In fact, he didn’t think twice about getting into that car at the end of 9.12 “Sharp Teeth.” It was a done deal. He was not cutting Dean out. Emotionally, he can’t connect to him. But he’s not abandoning him either.
Although it’s always Dean who’s being accused of being emotionally inept, it’s Sam that often finds it hard to communicate how he feels, and I think he bottles up more than lets through. And that’s why he gets misunderstood a lot.
Now, is Dean on his own? Well, maybe he should be. Maybe that’s his own personal trial. Perhaps it’s the curse of Cain. Maybe a la’ The Hero With The A Thousand Faces he must be ‘abandoned’ in a manner of speaking, he must lose all allies and support systems, to be able to face the monster, and more profoundly, face himself.
Great posts, Pakinam. Thanks.
Great posts, Pakinam. Thanks.
Awesome post pakinam….thanks for that. Just one thing I’m not sure if we agree on. Sam didn’t look for dean because he believed he died. Carver made it a point to mention twice that Sam believed dean was dead. It’s not that he didn’t know where he went and went oh well. I feel if it was a case of dean simply missing for Sam then the story would’ve gone the tried and failed route. The very fact that Sam dropped out of his life from the moment dean was gone, adding to what Sam said, indicates to me that Sam believed dean dead the moment Crowley warned Sam dean shouldn’t have been so close to roman and flat out told him he was truly alone.
In the church when Sam told dean what he confessed, how many times he let him down, I always believed one of the let downs he was referring to wasn’t the fact that he didn’t look, because I believe Sam felt he was keeping a promise, no I feel Sam was referring to making the mistake of believing dean had died.
Other than that I agree with most of what you had to say.
Awesome post pakinam….thanks for that. Just one thing I’m not sure if we agree on. Sam didn’t look for dean because he believed he died. Carver made it a point to mention twice that Sam believed dean was dead. It’s not that he didn’t know where he went and went oh well. I feel if it was a case of dean simply missing for Sam then the story would’ve gone the tried and failed route. The very fact that Sam dropped out of his life from the moment dean was gone, adding to what Sam said, indicates to me that Sam believed dean dead the moment Crowley warned Sam dean shouldn’t have been so close to roman and flat out told him he was truly alone.
In the church when Sam told dean what he confessed, how many times he let him down, I always believed one of the let downs he was referring to wasn’t the fact that he didn’t look, because I believe Sam felt he was keeping a promise, no I feel Sam was referring to making the mistake of believing dean had died.
Other than that I agree with most of what you had to say.
[quote name=”Bevie”]I’m too upset to post a coherent reply, but I agree with #3 – JJ and #4 – Deliamirandola.
Right now I feel I’m watching Soulless Sam rather than the Sammy I’ve known for many years.
But isn’t this the point? This isn’t Sammy…its SAM. Sammy is a little kid in need of protection and saving. Sam is supposed to be the 2nd best hunter on the planet. A smart, capable MAN who hunts at his brothers side.
So, yeah, I think we are seeing Sam…Sam who has learned from hsi mistakes and sees a revolving door problem. Sam obviously doesn’t have all the answers yet…hell maybe he doesn’t knbow all the questions. But he knows things are broken and he’s trying to fix the parts he can see. he’s trying to get Dean to see the parts he can see. And who knows…maybe Dean can show Sam the parts that are broken that DEAN can see.
and once that happens then the BOTH of them can fix the broken parts together. Maybe its time to let SAMMY go and let SAM into the fold.
[quote]I’m too upset to post a coherent reply, but I agree with #3 – JJ and #4 – Deliamirandola.
Right now I feel I’m watching Soulless Sam rather than the Sammy I’ve known for many years.
But isn’t this the point? This isn’t Sammy…its SAM. Sammy is a little kid in need of protection and saving. Sam is supposed to be the 2nd best hunter on the planet. A smart, capable MAN who hunts at his brothers side.
So, yeah, I think we are seeing Sam…Sam who has learned from hsi mistakes and sees a revolving door problem. Sam obviously doesn’t have all the answers yet…hell maybe he doesn’t knbow all the questions. But he knows things are broken and he’s trying to fix the parts he can see. he’s trying to get Dean to see the parts he can see. And who knows…maybe Dean can show Sam the parts that are broken that DEAN can see.
and once that happens then the BOTH of them can fix the broken parts together. Maybe its time to let SAMMY go and let SAM into the fold.
[quote]#34 “One last thought : IMO season 10 will be the last. There are a lot of episodes between now and then but these things we see happening now are moving things into place in preparation for the end. We might want to start preparing ourselves too.”[/quote]
It certainly is possible the show will end after season 10, but last week it was the top rated show on the CW and it almost always is in the top 3. So the CW has a real reason to keep it around for more seasons. It is quite possible that Jeremy Carver doesn’t intend to go more than three seasons, but the show has survived changes in show runners before, so that shouldn’t stop it. If the ratings hold and Jared and Jensen can be convinced to sign on, I think the show could go for more than 10 seasons.
I think Sam has shown that he loves Dean enough to die for him. Even though he wanted to live when he killed the Hell Hound and recognized that Dean took the trials as a suicide mission, he took the trials even though he knew he might not survive. He thought he had a better chance to live because he didn’t want to die, but he had heard Kevin say whoever did the trials could not fear death, so he had to know there was a chance. As far as saying that Sam isn’t going to do anything to keep Dean alive, this episode refuted that. As soon as Sam knew Dean was in trouble, he came running to help in any way he can.
Sam didn’t say he wouldn’t do anything to save Dean. He said if the circumstances were the same he wouldn’t do what Dean did. He has proved this already as well. As E pointed out, in season three when he found Doc Benton’s immortality formula he tried to talk Dean into using that to escape death and Hell. When Dean said no he didn’t slip it into Dean’s coffee and start making notes about people who had good replacement parts. He accepted that this was a line Dean wouldn’t cross and he honored that. Dean refused to honor Sam’s line. Sam stating that he will honor Dean’s line is IN NO WAY saying he won’t do anything HUMANLY possible to keep Dean alive, but supernaturally is pretty well out, except possibly if Cas is around.
I don’t know if Sam will end of having to save Dean this season. If he does I hope it is from the darkness that the Mark of Cain gives Dean, because I want to see Sam stand by his morals.
[quote]#34 “One last thought : IMO season 10 will be the last. There are a lot of episodes between now and then but these things we see happening now are moving things into place in preparation for the end. We might want to start preparing ourselves too.”[/quote]
It certainly is possible the show will end after season 10, but last week it was the top rated show on the CW and it almost always is in the top 3. So the CW has a real reason to keep it around for more seasons. It is quite possible that Jeremy Carver doesn’t intend to go more than three seasons, but the show has survived changes in show runners before, so that shouldn’t stop it. If the ratings hold and Jared and Jensen can be convinced to sign on, I think the show could go for more than 10 seasons.
I think Sam has shown that he loves Dean enough to die for him. Even though he wanted to live when he killed the Hell Hound and recognized that Dean took the trials as a suicide mission, he took the trials even though he knew he might not survive. He thought he had a better chance to live because he didn’t want to die, but he had heard Kevin say whoever did the trials could not fear death, so he had to know there was a chance. As far as saying that Sam isn’t going to do anything to keep Dean alive, this episode refuted that. As soon as Sam knew Dean was in trouble, he came running to help in any way he can.
Sam didn’t say he wouldn’t do anything to save Dean. He said if the circumstances were the same he wouldn’t do what Dean did. He has proved this already as well. As E pointed out, in season three when he found Doc Benton’s immortality formula he tried to talk Dean into using that to escape death and Hell. When Dean said no he didn’t slip it into Dean’s coffee and start making notes about people who had good replacement parts. He accepted that this was a line Dean wouldn’t cross and he honored that. Dean refused to honor Sam’s line. Sam stating that he will honor Dean’s line is IN NO WAY saying he won’t do anything HUMANLY possible to keep Dean alive, but supernaturally is pretty well out, except possibly if Cas is around.
I don’t know if Sam will end of having to save Dean this season. If he does I hope it is from the darkness that the Mark of Cain gives Dean, because I want to see Sam stand by his morals.
#34 – I disagree. 12 seasons! The ratings are too good, stories staying fresh, and the actors still having fun. While I liked the first few seasons best, this is still the best show on tv. No reason to quit at 10 seasons. The only way I see it happening is if the 2 stars want to quit and do something else.
#34 – I disagree. 12 seasons! The ratings are too good, stories staying fresh, and the actors still having fun. While I liked the first few seasons best, this is still the best show on tv. No reason to quit at 10 seasons. The only way I see it happening is if the 2 stars want to quit and do something else.
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote]#34 “One last thought : IMO season 10 will be the last. There are a lot of episodes between now and then but these things we see happening now are moving things into place in preparation for the end. We might want to start preparing ourselves too.”[/quote]
It certainly is possible the show will end after season 10, but last week it was the top rated show on the CW and it almost always is in the top 3. So the CW has a real reason to keep it around for more seasons. It is quite possible that Jeremy Carver doesn’t intend to go more than three seasons, but the show has survived changes in show runners before, so that shouldn’t stop it. If the ratings hold and Jared and Jensen can be convinced to sign on, I think the show could go for more than 10 seasons.
I think Sam has shown that he loves Dean enough to die for him. Even though he wanted to live when he killed the Hell Hound and recognized that Dean took the trials as a suicide mission, he took the trials even though he knew he might not survive. He thought he had a better chance to live because he didn’t want to die, but he had heard Kevin say whoever did the trials could not fear death, so he had to know there was a chance. As far as saying that Sam isn’t going to do anything to keep Dean alive, this episode refuted that. As soon as Sam knew Dean was in trouble, he came running to help in any way he can.
Sam didn’t say he wouldn’t do anything to save Dean. He said if the circumstances were the same he wouldn’t do what Dean did. He has proved this already as well. As E pointed out, in season three when he found Doc Benton’s immortality formula he tried to talk Dean into using that to escape death and Hell. When Dean said no he didn’t slip it into Dean’s coffee and start making notes about people who had good replacement parts. He accepted that this was a line Dean wouldn’t cross and he honored that. Dean refused to honor Sam’s line. Sam stating that he will honor Dean’s line is IN NO WAY saying he won’t do anything HUMANLY possible to keep Dean alive, but supernaturally is pretty well out, except possibly if Cas is around.
I don’t know if Sam will end of having to save Dean this season. If he does I hope it is from the darkness that the Mark of Cain gives Dean, because I want to see Sam stand by his morals.[/quote]
Percy, I really hope the writer allow Sam to keep hsi morals and allow him to find a different way to save Dean. Hell…Sam would die for Dean…maybe thats what it will take to save Dean. What if Dean has an urge or has to kill somone and Sam steps in front of the innocent and tells Dean if he is going to kill anyone…to kill Sam, Can’t see Dean NOT resisting the darkness within if that happens.
would be pretty cool to see acting from the guys and Sam not only gets to keep his morals but saves Dean.
[quote][quote]#34 “One last thought : IMO season 10 will be the last. There are a lot of episodes between now and then but these things we see happening now are moving things into place in preparation for the end. We might want to start preparing ourselves too.”[/quote]
It certainly is possible the show will end after season 10, but last week it was the top rated show on the CW and it almost always is in the top 3. So the CW has a real reason to keep it around for more seasons. It is quite possible that Jeremy Carver doesn’t intend to go more than three seasons, but the show has survived changes in show runners before, so that shouldn’t stop it. If the ratings hold and Jared and Jensen can be convinced to sign on, I think the show could go for more than 10 seasons.
I think Sam has shown that he loves Dean enough to die for him. Even though he wanted to live when he killed the Hell Hound and recognized that Dean took the trials as a suicide mission, he took the trials even though he knew he might not survive. He thought he had a better chance to live because he didn’t want to die, but he had heard Kevin say whoever did the trials could not fear death, so he had to know there was a chance. As far as saying that Sam isn’t going to do anything to keep Dean alive, this episode refuted that. As soon as Sam knew Dean was in trouble, he came running to help in any way he can.
Sam didn’t say he wouldn’t do anything to save Dean. He said if the circumstances were the same he wouldn’t do what Dean did. He has proved this already as well. As E pointed out, in season three when he found Doc Benton’s immortality formula he tried to talk Dean into using that to escape death and Hell. When Dean said no he didn’t slip it into Dean’s coffee and start making notes about people who had good replacement parts. He accepted that this was a line Dean wouldn’t cross and he honored that. Dean refused to honor Sam’s line. Sam stating that he will honor Dean’s line is IN NO WAY saying he won’t do anything HUMANLY possible to keep Dean alive, but supernaturally is pretty well out, except possibly if Cas is around.
I don’t know if Sam will end of having to save Dean this season. If he does I hope it is from the darkness that the Mark of Cain gives Dean, because I want to see Sam stand by his morals.[/quote]
Percy, I really hope the writer allow Sam to keep hsi morals and allow him to find a different way to save Dean. Hell…Sam would die for Dean…maybe thats what it will take to save Dean. What if Dean has an urge or has to kill somone and Sam steps in front of the innocent and tells Dean if he is going to kill anyone…to kill Sam, Can’t see Dean NOT resisting the darkness within if that happens.
would be pretty cool to see acting from the guys and Sam not only gets to keep his morals but saves Dean.
[quote name=”Aqualilies”]What I keep being reminded of is the way they both reacted when Bobby was dying. Sam was sad, but accepting. Dean was his usual “NO ONE DIES” self. And that illustrates perfectly how each of them faces death at this stage of the game. I think Sam has developed a more realistic reaction to death, while Dean is still stuck a mindset that the death of his loved ones must be prevented at all costs. If Dean died, Sam would be tremendously hurt, but he wouldn’t go against the forces of the universe to change it as Dean did. Sam loves Dean and would always try to save him through natural means, but not, if I may, Supernatural craziness. He has his limits when it comes to saving anyone, but especially Dean. And after what happened before, who could blame him? He’s not willing to go to the extremes anymore to save Dean. It hurts to hear, but it makes sense.
The only thing that pisses me off about what he said is it felt unfinished. When he paused at the end, I thought he was going to continue. He needed to say that this wasn’t because he didn’t care about Dean or didn’t want what was best for him. He needed to say that he still wanted his brother alive, but he had seen the tragedy caused by their undying missions to save each other and wanted it to stop. If Dean was dying and at peace with that, Sam would let him go. But not out of a lack of love. Out of respect for Dean’s decision, and a regard for the potential consequences. quote]
I agree with this very much. When Sam talked about theproblems happening ‘because we’re family’ he was hearkening back to Mary’s deal to save John sacrificing Sam, John’s deal to save Dean setting the stage for Dean’s deal to save am, which has brought on one hell after another. I struggled at first with Sam’s decision not to look for Dean in Season 8, but it made more sense as time went on. Sam has seen first hand the thousands of innocents that have been sacrificed along the way to save each other, culminating with Kevin and Sam just cannot live with one more. I believe he would give his own life to save Dean because he does love him and he will have his back on every hunt they go on 100% but he will no longer use supernatural means to save him because he is well-versed in those consequences. Sam has not said I love you or we will always be brothers but he is showing it because he has not run away; he was at the bunker waiting for Dean to come back and is with him now. As truly painful as it is, I think this is the most in character I have seen Sam written ever. To try to keep them as they were in a never-changing dynamic would make the story stale and actually be disrespectful of everything these characters have come through. I give Jeremy Carver credit in taking them in this direction – I feel it is a natural progression for both characters.
[quote]What I keep being reminded of is the way they both reacted when Bobby was dying. Sam was sad, but accepting. Dean was his usual “NO ONE DIES” self. And that illustrates perfectly how each of them faces death at this stage of the game. I think Sam has developed a more realistic reaction to death, while Dean is still stuck a mindset that the death of his loved ones must be prevented at all costs. If Dean died, Sam would be tremendously hurt, but he wouldn’t go against the forces of the universe to change it as Dean did. Sam loves Dean and would always try to save him through natural means, but not, if I may, Supernatural craziness. He has his limits when it comes to saving anyone, but especially Dean. And after what happened before, who could blame him? He’s not willing to go to the extremes anymore to save Dean. It hurts to hear, but it makes sense.
The only thing that pisses me off about what he said is it felt unfinished. When he paused at the end, I thought he was going to continue. He needed to say that this wasn’t because he didn’t care about Dean or didn’t want what was best for him. He needed to say that he still wanted his brother alive, but he had seen the tragedy caused by their undying missions to save each other and wanted it to stop. If Dean was dying and at peace with that, Sam would let him go. But not out of a lack of love. Out of respect for Dean’s decision, and a regard for the potential consequences. quote]
I agree with this very much. When Sam talked about theproblems happening ‘because we’re family’ he was hearkening back to Mary’s deal to save John sacrificing Sam, John’s deal to save Dean setting the stage for Dean’s deal to save am, which has brought on one hell after another. I struggled at first with Sam’s decision not to look for Dean in Season 8, but it made more sense as time went on. Sam has seen first hand the thousands of innocents that have been sacrificed along the way to save each other, culminating with Kevin and Sam just cannot live with one more. I believe he would give his own life to save Dean because he does love him and he will have his back on every hunt they go on 100% but he will no longer use supernatural means to save him because he is well-versed in those consequences. Sam has not said I love you or we will always be brothers but he is showing it because he has not run away; he was at the bunker waiting for Dean to come back and is with him now. As truly painful as it is, I think this is the most in character I have seen Sam written ever. To try to keep them as they were in a never-changing dynamic would make the story stale and actually be disrespectful of everything these characters have come through. I give Jeremy Carver credit in taking them in this direction – I feel it is a natural progression for both characters.
I feel like Sam is just heartsick right now. Twice he put Dean’s wishes in front of his own. At the end of Sacrifice he thought finishing the trials was the right thing to do, but stopped them just because Dean asked him too. Then in the season premiere he was ready to go with death, but again put his trust in Dean simply because Dean (or who he thought was Dean) asked him too. Look at what Sam said in both cases. How do I stop? and What do I do?. If the answer had been something Sam could live with, then no harm no foul.
But the answer wasn’t something Sam could live with. In fact, the answer pretty much trampled over everything Sam holds dear and believes in. If Dean’s greatest fear is being left alone (and I believe it is), then Sam’s is losing control. So Dean prevented his biggest fear from coming true by making sure Sam’s did.
And despite everything that came after, Kevin’s death, Gadreel taking him over completely, Sam’s body being tortured to get Gadreel to talk…Dean still claims it was the right thing to do and he would do it again. That is kind of scary.
I have seen quite a few people say that Sam should go easy on Dean, that Dean is fragile right now and needs support not condemnation. He should make sure Dean knows that he loves him. Well Dean is the one who chose exactly what he wanted over Sam. At this point in time I don’t think Sam owes Dean a thing.
I feel like Sam is just heartsick right now. Twice he put Dean’s wishes in front of his own. At the end of Sacrifice he thought finishing the trials was the right thing to do, but stopped them just because Dean asked him too. Then in the season premiere he was ready to go with death, but again put his trust in Dean simply because Dean (or who he thought was Dean) asked him too. Look at what Sam said in both cases. How do I stop? and What do I do?. If the answer had been something Sam could live with, then no harm no foul.
But the answer wasn’t something Sam could live with. In fact, the answer pretty much trampled over everything Sam holds dear and believes in. If Dean’s greatest fear is being left alone (and I believe it is), then Sam’s is losing control. So Dean prevented his biggest fear from coming true by making sure Sam’s did.
And despite everything that came after, Kevin’s death, Gadreel taking him over completely, Sam’s body being tortured to get Gadreel to talk…Dean still claims it was the right thing to do and he would do it again. That is kind of scary.
I have seen quite a few people say that Sam should go easy on Dean, that Dean is fragile right now and needs support not condemnation. He should make sure Dean knows that he loves him. Well Dean is the one who chose exactly what he wanted over Sam. At this point in time I don’t think Sam owes Dean a thing.
I guess I have a different POV than some here. I was a bit upset with what Dean said. He knew it was wrong when Gadreel just proposed the possession. He knew it was wrong when he decided to trick Sam into being possessed. He knew it was wrong when he decided to keep it a secret and he knew it was wrong every time he lied to Sam about it. He felt horribly guilty the entire time and now he is saying he would do it again. Talk about not learning from your mistakes, or never admitting to being wrong? IMO he just needs to say the words “I’m sorry”. Alas, now he’s decided he didn’t do anything wrong?
The episode was terrific IMO. Fun monster, fun characters, kinda gross, but Sam in a tank top doing yoga and Dean being gung ho about training but being relegated to the kitchen and a painful discussion at the end. I’m a happy fan.
I guess I have a different POV than some here. I was a bit upset with what Dean said. He knew it was wrong when Gadreel just proposed the possession. He knew it was wrong when he decided to trick Sam into being possessed. He knew it was wrong when he decided to keep it a secret and he knew it was wrong every time he lied to Sam about it. He felt horribly guilty the entire time and now he is saying he would do it again. Talk about not learning from your mistakes, or never admitting to being wrong? IMO he just needs to say the words “I’m sorry”. Alas, now he’s decided he didn’t do anything wrong?
The episode was terrific IMO. Fun monster, fun characters, kinda gross, but Sam in a tank top doing yoga and Dean being gung ho about training but being relegated to the kitchen and a painful discussion at the end. I’m a happy fan.
[quote name=”nappi815″]i did wonder though about death’s appearance in eppy 901. never have we seen death come for anyone. it’s always been a reaper. but death took the opportunity to come for sam himself and i wondered why. death told sam how much he respected him and used the words….”well played”. death seemed to me to be proud of sam. he even promised sam that he would honor his request of not
being brought back so no one can be hurt because of
him, which seemed to me have death respect him even
more. when dean/zeke showed up with the promise
that he had a plan, imploring him by telling sam there
aint no me if there aint no you…right before sam made
the decision he looked back at death..with this look of
uncertainty…and death, who never before gave anyone
a choice, gave sam one. and i’m beginning to wonder if
death had given sam the choice and in fact let him go
didn’t have something to do with what’s going on now.
dean has a habit of messing with the natural order. he keeps bringing people back. maybe sam will be the one
to make dean finally understand that he can’t do that
anymore. maybe death made the
exception with sam not only as a reward, but to finally make dean understand that he has to stop messing
with the natural order because innocents end up dying
just a thought[/quote]
I understood as a viewer that it was all Sam’s subconscious and Death was a manifestation like Dean and Bobby. His personality and behavior was ooc. The actor confirmed this interpretation. So it was Sam’s healthy ego assuring himself that he had done enough and could die without anyone sacrificing to save him.
[quote]i did wonder though about death’s appearance in eppy 901. never have we seen death come for anyone. it’s always been a reaper. but death took the opportunity to come for sam himself and i wondered why. death told sam how much he respected him and used the words….”well played”. death seemed to me to be proud of sam. he even promised sam that he would honor his request of not
being brought back so no one can be hurt because of
him, which seemed to me have death respect him even
more. when dean/zeke showed up with the promise
that he had a plan, imploring him by telling sam there
aint no me if there aint no you…right before sam made
the decision he looked back at death..with this look of
uncertainty…and death, who never before gave anyone
a choice, gave sam one. and i’m beginning to wonder if
death had given sam the choice and in fact let him go
didn’t have something to do with what’s going on now.
dean has a habit of messing with the natural order. he keeps bringing people back. maybe sam will be the one
to make dean finally understand that he can’t do that
anymore. maybe death made the
exception with sam not only as a reward, but to finally make dean understand that he has to stop messing
with the natural order because innocents end up dying
just a thought[/quote]
I understood as a viewer that it was all Sam’s subconscious and Death was a manifestation like Dean and Bobby. His personality and behavior was ooc. The actor confirmed this interpretation. So it was Sam’s healthy ego assuring himself that he had done enough and could die without anyone sacrificing to save him.
This episode has made me think all the way back to Mystery Spot and the “lesson” that the Trickster was trying to teach Sam. He wanted Sam to see what life was like without his brother. Because they are each other’s weak spots.
Dean even understood that ones (as long as he wasn’t the one being left behind) in No Rest for the Wicked he made his speech about them being each other’s weak spots.
Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory and his viewpoint in this episode, shows me that Sam actually , eventually, learned this lesson.
Call back to season 3 during a season 9 episode. (at least as I see it 🙂 ) I love this show.
This episode has made me think all the way back to Mystery Spot and the “lesson” that the Trickster was trying to teach Sam. He wanted Sam to see what life was like without his brother. Because they are each other’s weak spots.
Dean even understood that ones (as long as he wasn’t the one being left behind) in No Rest for the Wicked he made his speech about them being each other’s weak spots.
Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory and his viewpoint in this episode, shows me that Sam actually , eventually, learned this lesson.
Call back to season 3 during a season 9 episode. (at least as I see it 🙂 ) I love this show.
(Edited by Alice – Sorry, the comment you quoted has been removed. I’ll keep your response though).
I agree with this. Dean has made a family of loyal friends and he would do well to focus on them. It is a sad day when Crowley gets you more than your own brother.
As far as I have understood Sam is mad because Dean stopped him in the church and Dean tricked him into angel possession. Dean pleaded for Sam to stop the trials because he valued his brother and Sam decided to stop because Dean told him that he put Sam first. Sam decided that he wanted to live. So now why is Sam blaming Dean. Dean didn’t forcibly stop him, restrain him to get his way (chain him to a radiator), or lie about his love for his brother.
In the hospital Dean is told that Sam is dying and cannot be saved medically. Dean prays for help from his heaven and his prayers are answered. Gadreel was the one that deceived Sam to obtain permission. Gadreel impersonated Dean in Sam’s mind. The fact that Sam said yes indicates that he wanted to live.
Should Dean have been more proactive about protecting them from an unknown angel probably. He was lulled by the angel keeping Sam alive, and resurrecting Cas and Charlie.
Kevin died because Metatron wanted him dead. I simply cannot buy Sam’s guilt because he left the boy to Crowley without a thought for a year. I do believe that he’s happy to use Kevin’s death against Dean.
What I love about Dean is that he always takes responsibility for his actions, even as he assigns himself more responsibility than he deserves. He apologizes readily.
What i dislike about Sam is that he always manages to blame his actions/choices on Dean. I cannot remember the last time he apologized to Dean for anything he has done.
The things he has said are so heinous I don’t believe the character will recover in many fans minds. It does put Sam not lifting a finger to find Dean, Castiel, Kevin and Meg after the 7 finale into perspective.
The idea that Dean doesn’t sacrifice himself is ludicrous. After all Dean was planning to close the elongated and didn’t doing it. Sam was the one unwilling to die for it in T and E because he knew there was a light.
Dean saves Sam because he did it at 4 and after losing his home he clings to it’s fragments as tactile memories. John’s coat, pie, classic rock, the impala, Sam. It’s not about being alone. Bad Boys shows us that Dean thrived without his family and returned only for Sam to have a better life, because Dean made it better. Dean is the brother with the friends that know all about his life and fit in his life. Dean is the brother that thrives on a film set, in prison and in bad boys. Dean believes family is to be cherished and protected. Sam has always seen family as the burden to escape, the threat holding him back, the reason he doesn’t have normal. Personally I think that Dean is capable of great happiness because he accepts his life, finds value and purpose in what he does, and accepts responsibility. I find Sam the brother that has a lot to learn.
(Edited by Alice – Sorry, the comment you quoted has been removed. I’ll keep your response though).
I agree with this. Dean has made a family of loyal friends and he would do well to focus on them. It is a sad day when Crowley gets you more than your own brother.
As far as I have understood Sam is mad because Dean stopped him in the church and Dean tricked him into angel possession. Dean pleaded for Sam to stop the trials because he valued his brother and Sam decided to stop because Dean told him that he put Sam first. Sam decided that he wanted to live. So now why is Sam blaming Dean. Dean didn’t forcibly stop him, restrain him to get his way (chain him to a radiator), or lie about his love for his brother.
In the hospital Dean is told that Sam is dying and cannot be saved medically. Dean prays for help from his heaven and his prayers are answered. Gadreel was the one that deceived Sam to obtain permission. Gadreel impersonated Dean in Sam’s mind. The fact that Sam said yes indicates that he wanted to live.
Should Dean have been more proactive about protecting them from an unknown angel probably. He was lulled by the angel keeping Sam alive, and resurrecting Cas and Charlie.
Kevin died because Metatron wanted him dead. I simply cannot buy Sam’s guilt because he left the boy to Crowley without a thought for a year. I do believe that he’s happy to use Kevin’s death against Dean.
What I love about Dean is that he always takes responsibility for his actions, even as he assigns himself more responsibility than he deserves. He apologizes readily.
What i dislike about Sam is that he always manages to blame his actions/choices on Dean. I cannot remember the last time he apologized to Dean for anything he has done.
The things he has said are so heinous I don’t believe the character will recover in many fans minds. It does put Sam not lifting a finger to find Dean, Castiel, Kevin and Meg after the 7 finale into perspective.
The idea that Dean doesn’t sacrifice himself is ludicrous. After all Dean was planning to close the elongated and didn’t doing it. Sam was the one unwilling to die for it in T and E because he knew there was a light.
Dean saves Sam because he did it at 4 and after losing his home he clings to it’s fragments as tactile memories. John’s coat, pie, classic rock, the impala, Sam. It’s not about being alone. Bad Boys shows us that Dean thrived without his family and returned only for Sam to have a better life, because Dean made it better. Dean is the brother with the friends that know all about his life and fit in his life. Dean is the brother that thrives on a film set, in prison and in bad boys. Dean believes family is to be cherished and protected. Sam has always seen family as the burden to escape, the threat holding him back, the reason he doesn’t have normal. Personally I think that Dean is capable of great happiness because he accepts his life, finds value and purpose in what he does, and accepts responsibility. I find Sam the brother that has a lot to learn.
I’ve been reading some comments about SPN going on through season 10 so I thought I’d chime in on that!
Percysowner is right. When Jeremy Carver first came aboard, I remember interviewing him in that press room at Comic con and he said that he had a plan all the way through season 10. Many, just like Kripke and his five year plan, have figured that was it.
In season six Sera Gamble stepped up and convinced everyone there was more story left. In season eight, Jeremy Carver came along with his vision. The show will continue as long as there are creative minds that want to keep this going. The network will never cancel this show due to lack of ratings. They’ll give it a proper send off when everyone behind the show, including Jared and Jensen, say “enough.” Given how tight knit everyone is in Vancouver, it is not a decision they will take lightly. They are like a big family. A lot of those great folks will be out of work when it’s over, and Jared and Jensen know that.
It’s always possible during season ten a Robbie Thompson or Adam Glass step forward with their own vision. Or maybe Jeremy Carver decides he isn’t done. That’s something we won’t know until we get closer to that time. But going into season ten, there will be a lot of unknowns. Thankfully, the fate of the show doesn’t belong to the network. That’s a great position to be in.
BTW, did anyone notice that Brad and Eugenie are no longer listed as producers? They weren’t in the latest script cover where Misha was directing either. You think they may have parted the show?
[url]https://twitter.com/TheJimMichaels/status/430446820615933952/photo/1[/url]
I’ve been reading some comments about SPN going on through season 10 so I thought I’d chime in on that!
Percysowner is right. When Jeremy Carver first came aboard, I remember interviewing him in that press room at Comic con and he said that he had a plan all the way through season 10. Many, just like Kripke and his five year plan, have figured that was it.
In season six Sera Gamble stepped up and convinced everyone there was more story left. In season eight, Jeremy Carver came along with his vision. The show will continue as long as there are creative minds that want to keep this going. The network will never cancel this show due to lack of ratings. They’ll give it a proper send off when everyone behind the show, including Jared and Jensen, say “enough.” Given how tight knit everyone is in Vancouver, it is not a decision they will take lightly. They are like a big family. A lot of those great folks will be out of work when it’s over, and Jared and Jensen know that.
It’s always possible during season ten a Robbie Thompson or Adam Glass step forward with their own vision. Or maybe Jeremy Carver decides he isn’t done. That’s something we won’t know until we get closer to that time. But going into season ten, there will be a lot of unknowns. Thankfully, the fate of the show doesn’t belong to the network. That’s a great position to be in.
BTW, did anyone notice that Brad and Eugenie are no longer listed as producers? They weren’t in the latest script cover where Misha was directing either. You think they may have parted the show?
[url]https://twitter.com/TheJimMichaels/status/430446820615933952/photo/1[/url]
[quote name=”Tigershire”]This episode has made me think all the way back to Mystery Spot and the “lesson” that the Trickster was trying to teach Sam. He wanted Sam to see what life was like without his brother. Because they are each other’s weak spots.
Dean even understood that ones (as long as he wasn’t the one being left behind) in No Rest for the Wicked he
made his speech about them being each other’s weak
spots.
Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory and his
viewpoint in this episode, shows me that Sam actually , eventually, learned this lesson.
Call back to season 3 during a season 9 episode. (at
least as I see it 🙂 ) I love this show.[/quote]
I always thought Gabriel was trying to help Sam stay strong after Dean died so he wouldn’t fall prey to Ruby and the revenge quest that released Lucifer. He was trying to help Sam not be a pawn. Sam didn’t learn the lesson and went nuts, fell in with Ruby, and released Lucifer. The lesson was to emotionally accept Dean’s deal coming due in order to avert the Apocalypse.
The demon deal couldn’t be reversed. Why would Gabriel be teaching him a lesson that had no application at the time?
[quote]This episode has made me think all the way back to Mystery Spot and the “lesson” that the Trickster was trying to teach Sam. He wanted Sam to see what life was like without his brother. Because they are each other’s weak spots.
Dean even understood that ones (as long as he wasn’t the one being left behind) in No Rest for the Wicked he
made his speech about them being each other’s weak
spots.
Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory and his
viewpoint in this episode, shows me that Sam actually , eventually, learned this lesson.
Call back to season 3 during a season 9 episode. (at
least as I see it 🙂 ) I love this show.[/quote]
I always thought Gabriel was trying to help Sam stay strong after Dean died so he wouldn’t fall prey to Ruby and the revenge quest that released Lucifer. He was trying to help Sam not be a pawn. Sam didn’t learn the lesson and went nuts, fell in with Ruby, and released Lucifer. The lesson was to emotionally accept Dean’s deal coming due in order to avert the Apocalypse.
The demon deal couldn’t be reversed. Why would Gabriel be teaching him a lesson that had no application at the time?
[quote name=”alice”]I’ve been reading some comments about SPN going on through season 10 so I thought I’d chime in on that!
Percysowner is right. When Jeremy Carver first came aboard, I remember interviewing him in that press room at Comic con and he said that he had a plan all the way through season 10. Many, just like Kripke and his five year plan, have figured that was it.
In season six Sera Gamble stepped up and convinced everyone there was more story left. In season eight, Jeremy Carver came along with his vision. The show will continue as long as there are creative minds that want to keep this going. The network will never cancel this show due to lack of ratings. They’ll give it a proper send off when everyone behind the show, including Jared and Jensen, say “enough.” Given how tight knit everyone is in Vancouver, it is not a decision they will take lightly. They are like a big family. A lot of those great folks will be out of work when it’s over, and Jared and Jensen know that.
It’s always possible during season ten a Robbie Thompson or Adam Glass step forward with their own vision. Or maybe Jeremy Carver decides he isn’t done. That’s something we won’t know until we get closer to that time. But going into season ten, there will be a lot of unknowns. Thankfully, the fate of the show doesn’t belong to the network. That’s a great position to be in.
BTW, did anyone notice that Brad and Eugenie are no longer listed as producers? They weren’t in the latest script cover where Misha was directing either. You think they may have parted the show?
[url]https://twitter.com/TheJimMichaels/status/430446820615933952/photo/1[/url][/quote]
Since I have found Brad and Eugenie’s scripts to be less than great (to put it mildly) this makes me happy.
I think that during those interviews Jeremy Carver also said that he thought the mythology he was establishing could go beyond 10 seasons. Which I’m hoping means he isn’t planning on anyone jumping into a Cage that can’t be opened so if he or someone else wants to move forward they don’t have to scramble to explain how something that was supposed to be impossible happened.
[quote]I always thought Gabriel was trying to help Sam stay strong after Dean died so he wouldn’t fall prey to Ruby and the revenge quest that released Lucifer. He was trying to help Sam not be a pawn. Sam didn’t learn the lesson and went nuts, fell in with Ruby, and released Lucifer. The lesson was to emotionally accept Dean’s deal coming due in order to avert the Apocalypse. [/quote]
When he was the Trickster I could have bought that. But he was Gabriel and he spent an entire episode trying to convince both Sam and Dean to “play their parts” and he only switched sides near the end. Once he was revealed to be Gabriel, I think he was just making sure that Sam was already suffering from PTSD when Dean died. Most people can only take so much trauma before they break. Gabriel was just piling on to Sam to prepare him to “play his part”.
[quote]I’ve been reading some comments about SPN going on through season 10 so I thought I’d chime in on that!
Percysowner is right. When Jeremy Carver first came aboard, I remember interviewing him in that press room at Comic con and he said that he had a plan all the way through season 10. Many, just like Kripke and his five year plan, have figured that was it.
In season six Sera Gamble stepped up and convinced everyone there was more story left. In season eight, Jeremy Carver came along with his vision. The show will continue as long as there are creative minds that want to keep this going. The network will never cancel this show due to lack of ratings. They’ll give it a proper send off when everyone behind the show, including Jared and Jensen, say “enough.” Given how tight knit everyone is in Vancouver, it is not a decision they will take lightly. They are like a big family. A lot of those great folks will be out of work when it’s over, and Jared and Jensen know that.
It’s always possible during season ten a Robbie Thompson or Adam Glass step forward with their own vision. Or maybe Jeremy Carver decides he isn’t done. That’s something we won’t know until we get closer to that time. But going into season ten, there will be a lot of unknowns. Thankfully, the fate of the show doesn’t belong to the network. That’s a great position to be in.
BTW, did anyone notice that Brad and Eugenie are no longer listed as producers? They weren’t in the latest script cover where Misha was directing either. You think they may have parted the show?
[url]https://twitter.com/TheJimMichaels/status/430446820615933952/photo/1[/url][/quote]
Since I have found Brad and Eugenie’s scripts to be less than great (to put it mildly) this makes me happy.
I think that during those interviews Jeremy Carver also said that he thought the mythology he was establishing could go beyond 10 seasons. Which I’m hoping means he isn’t planning on anyone jumping into a Cage that can’t be opened so if he or someone else wants to move forward they don’t have to scramble to explain how something that was supposed to be impossible happened.
[quote]I always thought Gabriel was trying to help Sam stay strong after Dean died so he wouldn’t fall prey to Ruby and the revenge quest that released Lucifer. He was trying to help Sam not be a pawn. Sam didn’t learn the lesson and went nuts, fell in with Ruby, and released Lucifer. The lesson was to emotionally accept Dean’s deal coming due in order to avert the Apocalypse. [/quote]
When he was the Trickster I could have bought that. But he was Gabriel and he spent an entire episode trying to convince both Sam and Dean to “play their parts” and he only switched sides near the end. Once he was revealed to be Gabriel, I think he was just making sure that Sam was already suffering from PTSD when Dean died. Most people can only take so much trauma before they break. Gabriel was just piling on to Sam to prepare him to “play his part”.
[quote name=”amyh”][quote name=”Bevie”]I’m too upset to post a coherent reply, but I agree with #3 – JJ and #4 – Deliamirandola.
Right now I feel I’m watching Soulless Sam rather than the Sammy I’ve known for many years.
But isn’t this the point? This isn’t Sammy…its SAM. Sammy is a little kid in need of protection and saving. Sam is supposed to be the 2nd best hunter on the planet. A smart, capable MAN who hunts at his brothers side.
[b]So, yeah, I think we are seeing Sam…Sam who has learned from hsi mistakes and sees a revolving door problem. Sam obviously doesn’t have all the answers yet…hell maybe he doesn’t knbow all the questions. But he knows things are broken and he’s trying to fix the parts he can see. he’s trying to get Dean to see the parts he can see. And who knows…maybe Dean can show Sam the parts that are broken that DEAN can see.
and once that happens then the BOTH of them can fix the broken parts together. Maybe its time to let SAMMY go and let SAM into the fold.[/b][/quote]Agree with your comments.especially the bolded parts.
[quote][quote]I’m too upset to post a coherent reply, but I agree with #3 – JJ and #4 – Deliamirandola.
Right now I feel I’m watching Soulless Sam rather than the Sammy I’ve known for many years.
But isn’t this the point? This isn’t Sammy…its SAM. Sammy is a little kid in need of protection and saving. Sam is supposed to be the 2nd best hunter on the planet. A smart, capable MAN who hunts at his brothers side.
[b]So, yeah, I think we are seeing Sam…Sam who has learned from hsi mistakes and sees a revolving door problem. Sam obviously doesn’t have all the answers yet…hell maybe he doesn’t knbow all the questions. But he knows things are broken and he’s trying to fix the parts he can see. he’s trying to get Dean to see the parts he can see. And who knows…maybe Dean can show Sam the parts that are broken that DEAN can see.
and once that happens then the BOTH of them can fix the broken parts together. Maybe its time to let SAMMY go and let SAM into the fold.[/b][/quote]Agree with your comments.especially the bolded parts.
@29.
We might not have seen it but we kind of do know what Death does reap people. We saw this in [i]Meet the New Boss[/i] when he said ‘I had a tingle I’d be reaping someone very, very soon. Don’t worry – Not you’ to the tied up couple. We have also seen reapers give people a choice. They can choose to move or they can choose to stay. Reapers don’t drag people kicking and screaming out of there! They can coerce and whatnot but there was always an element of choice. He might be Death, but he is first and foremost a reaper so there’s no reason to believe he wouldn’t reap people and follow the same rules other reapers have..
There was an interview with Julian Richings who said that he didn’t think it was really Death in the room. The reason he said he believed it wasn’t really Death was because he wasn’t eating in that scene. Now, that idea is rather strange because, not only do I think Death would be too professional to reap souls while scoffing down a Big Mac and milk shake at the same time (Good grief, if people saw that they’d think they were hallucinating and would never agree to go with him!) but Death wasn’t eating in half the scenes we’ve seen him in, and it didn’t make him any less real.
In the same JR interview he said he thought himself as akin to an uncle to Sam and Dean. He did respect them, which is why he, despite all his proclamations that they, and the planet, were insignificant, did help them on numerous occasions. Julian Richings also said that he (Death) would also be the one to reap Dean when the time came so if he’d reap Dean then it stands to reason he’d also be there for Sam?
I took the ‘Well played’ the same as you, to not only be an acknowledgement of what Sam had accomplished, but also in recognition of the fact that he was choosing not to disrupt the natural order by trying to stay.
@29.
We might not have seen it but we kind of do know what Death does reap people. We saw this in [i]Meet the New Boss[/i] when he said ‘I had a tingle I’d be reaping someone very, very soon. Don’t worry – Not you’ to the tied up couple. We have also seen reapers give people a choice. They can choose to move or they can choose to stay. Reapers don’t drag people kicking and screaming out of there! They can coerce and whatnot but there was always an element of choice. He might be Death, but he is first and foremost a reaper so there’s no reason to believe he wouldn’t reap people and follow the same rules other reapers have..
There was an interview with Julian Richings who said that he didn’t think it was really Death in the room. The reason he said he believed it wasn’t really Death was because he wasn’t eating in that scene. Now, that idea is rather strange because, not only do I think Death would be too professional to reap souls while scoffing down a Big Mac and milk shake at the same time (Good grief, if people saw that they’d think they were hallucinating and would never agree to go with him!) but Death wasn’t eating in half the scenes we’ve seen him in, and it didn’t make him any less real.
In the same JR interview he said he thought himself as akin to an uncle to Sam and Dean. He did respect them, which is why he, despite all his proclamations that they, and the planet, were insignificant, did help them on numerous occasions. Julian Richings also said that he (Death) would also be the one to reap Dean when the time came so if he’d reap Dean then it stands to reason he’d also be there for Sam?
I took the ‘Well played’ the same as you, to not only be an acknowledgement of what Sam had accomplished, but also in recognition of the fact that he was choosing not to disrupt the natural order by trying to stay.
[quote name=”trinaaron”]I feel like Sam is just heartsick right now. Twice he put Dean’s wishes in front of his own. At the end of Sacrifice he thought finishing the trials was the right thing to do, but stopped them just because Dean asked him too. Then in the season premiere he was ready to go with death, but again put his trust in Dean simply because Dean (or who he thought was Dean) asked him too. Look at what Sam said in both cases. How do I stop? and What do I do?. If the answer had been something Sam could live with, then no harm no foul.
But the answer wasn’t something Sam could live with. In fact, the answer pretty much trampled over everything Sam holds dear and believes in. If Dean’s greatest fear is being left alone (and I believe it is), then Sam’s is losing control. So Dean prevented his biggest fear from coming true by making sure Sam’s did.
And despite everything that came after, Kevin’s death, Gadreel taking him over completely, Sam’s body being tortured to get Gadreel to talk…Dean still claims it was the right thing to do and he would do it again. That is kind of scary.
I have seen quite a few people say that Sam should go easy on Dean, that Dean is fragile right now and needs support not condemnation. He should make sure Dean knows that he loves him. Well Dean is the one who chose exactly what he wanted over Sam. At this point in time I don’t think Sam owes Dean a thing.[/quote]
So well put I only wish alot more people realized this . .
[quote]I feel like Sam is just heartsick right now. Twice he put Dean’s wishes in front of his own. At the end of Sacrifice he thought finishing the trials was the right thing to do, but stopped them just because Dean asked him too. Then in the season premiere he was ready to go with death, but again put his trust in Dean simply because Dean (or who he thought was Dean) asked him too. Look at what Sam said in both cases. How do I stop? and What do I do?. If the answer had been something Sam could live with, then no harm no foul.
But the answer wasn’t something Sam could live with. In fact, the answer pretty much trampled over everything Sam holds dear and believes in. If Dean’s greatest fear is being left alone (and I believe it is), then Sam’s is losing control. So Dean prevented his biggest fear from coming true by making sure Sam’s did.
And despite everything that came after, Kevin’s death, Gadreel taking him over completely, Sam’s body being tortured to get Gadreel to talk…Dean still claims it was the right thing to do and he would do it again. That is kind of scary.
I have seen quite a few people say that Sam should go easy on Dean, that Dean is fragile right now and needs support not condemnation. He should make sure Dean knows that he loves him. Well Dean is the one who chose exactly what he wanted over Sam. At this point in time I don’t think Sam owes Dean a thing.[/quote]
So well put I only wish alot more people realized this . .
I haven’t commented on this episode yet, because I am so angry at the show right still and I thought it best not to. The brothers are practicing being honest now, though, so I decided that honesty and harsh words are appropriate, even if no one wants to hear them. I have not read any of the comments here, so I am not addressing anyone’s thoughts with my honesty…warning…harsh words will follow.
Sam is right. I see no upside to him being alive at the moment. There have been years of complaints that the viewers don’t get to see Sam’s POV, but Sam was given the emotional arc with Road Trip and we are now seeing his POV. If Sam has to validate himself as a real grown up by invalidating Dean’s entire life, then I don’t like that person. As a character, Sam is now on my irredeemable list. There is nothing he can do now that will make me like him — not even (as I suspect will happen) rushing in and saving Dean from some dire situation in 9.23 proving the power of love wins.
IMO, Sam is still passing blame for everything he has always thought rotten about his life onto Dean.(John being dead now and Dean being his “parent” while on the road to Sam becoming his own person.).
According to Sam’s reasoning, he should really be blaming his mother, IMO. Mary made a deal with the YED for John’s life out of love, and bad things happened. According to Sam’s reasoning, that was a selfish act. If Mary had not made the deal, Sam would not be alive and nothing bad would have ever happened to him or Dean. Dean could have had that happy life we saw in Bad Boys.
I remember most recently Dean telling Cain that you never give up on family. Family is Dean’s core, and Sam knows that. Since when is love a bad thing? Since when is family a bad thing?
Sam also agreed with Dean when Dean told him it was not within himself to let Sam die (i.e., give up on family), so why exactly is Sam mad? Because Sam chose death and Dean took that choice away from him? Sam tells Dean he was ready to die and he tells Cas that Dean made a choice for him (took away his agency by not letting him die). Well, Sam, you know how to fix that, or you could leave — go find that happy life you seek, which would be the grown up thing to do instead of staying and throwing emotional bombs at Dean. Either way would have the same affect on Dean.
Sam was harsh with Dean; yes, but in being harsh with Dean, he also left himself and any and all of his own choices out of the equation. This reasoning got me to thinking about the writers…once again.
Adam Glass tweeted that you have to tear down the relationship to rebuild it. I have been thinking about that and decided I don’t like this storyline. I did not like it last year, either, because there was no payoff to the season, but here is why I don’t like it.
The co-dependency thing has always been a part of the brothers’ relationship, and I think most fans liked that because it gave the brothers both strength and it was a weakness that could be used against them, but it used to run in the background. It did not [i][b]define[/b][/i] who the brothers were as characters. I really do not like watching a weekly show about the emotional journey of two supposedly tough men trying to find their manhood.
I don’t get to pick the storylines, so in deciding that I don’t like Sam, the grown up, I now have to wait to see if I like what the writers turn Dean into to make a decision about whether to continue with the show. If it continues on this path of soapish emotional drama, I know I will not.
I haven’t commented on this episode yet, because I am so angry at the show right still and I thought it best not to. The brothers are practicing being honest now, though, so I decided that honesty and harsh words are appropriate, even if no one wants to hear them. I have not read any of the comments here, so I am not addressing anyone’s thoughts with my honesty…warning…harsh words will follow.
Sam is right. I see no upside to him being alive at the moment. There have been years of complaints that the viewers don’t get to see Sam’s POV, but Sam was given the emotional arc with Road Trip and we are now seeing his POV. If Sam has to validate himself as a real grown up by invalidating Dean’s entire life, then I don’t like that person. As a character, Sam is now on my irredeemable list. There is nothing he can do now that will make me like him — not even (as I suspect will happen) rushing in and saving Dean from some dire situation in 9.23 proving the power of love wins.
IMO, Sam is still passing blame for everything he has always thought rotten about his life onto Dean.(John being dead now and Dean being his “parent” while on the road to Sam becoming his own person.).
According to Sam’s reasoning, he should really be blaming his mother, IMO. Mary made a deal with the YED for John’s life out of love, and bad things happened. According to Sam’s reasoning, that was a selfish act. If Mary had not made the deal, Sam would not be alive and nothing bad would have ever happened to him or Dean. Dean could have had that happy life we saw in Bad Boys.
I remember most recently Dean telling Cain that you never give up on family. Family is Dean’s core, and Sam knows that. Since when is love a bad thing? Since when is family a bad thing?
Sam also agreed with Dean when Dean told him it was not within himself to let Sam die (i.e., give up on family), so why exactly is Sam mad? Because Sam chose death and Dean took that choice away from him? Sam tells Dean he was ready to die and he tells Cas that Dean made a choice for him (took away his agency by not letting him die). Well, Sam, you know how to fix that, or you could leave — go find that happy life you seek, which would be the grown up thing to do instead of staying and throwing emotional bombs at Dean. Either way would have the same affect on Dean.
Sam was harsh with Dean; yes, but in being harsh with Dean, he also left himself and any and all of his own choices out of the equation. This reasoning got me to thinking about the writers…once again.
Adam Glass tweeted that you have to tear down the relationship to rebuild it. I have been thinking about that and decided I don’t like this storyline. I did not like it last year, either, because there was no payoff to the season, but here is why I don’t like it.
The co-dependency thing has always been a part of the brothers’ relationship, and I think most fans liked that because it gave the brothers both strength and it was a weakness that could be used against them, but it used to run in the background. It did not [i][b]define[/b][/i] who the brothers were as characters. I really do not like watching a weekly show about the emotional journey of two supposedly tough men trying to find their manhood.
I don’t get to pick the storylines, so in deciding that I don’t like Sam, the grown up, I now have to wait to see if I like what the writers turn Dean into to make a decision about whether to continue with the show. If it continues on this path of soapish emotional drama, I know I will not.
[quote name=”Sharon”][quote name=”trinaaron”]I feel like Sam is just heartsick right now. Twice he put Dean’s wishes in front of his own. At the end of Sacrifice he thought finishing the trials was the right thing to do, but stopped them just because Dean asked him too. Then in the season premiere he was ready to go with death, but again put his trust in Dean simply because Dean (or who he thought was Dean) asked him too. Look at what Sam said in both cases. How do I stop? and What do I do?. If the answer had been something Sam could live with, then no harm no foul.
But the answer wasn’t something Sam could live with. In fact, the answer pretty much trampled over everything Sam holds dear and believes in. If Dean’s greatest fear is being left alone (and I believe it is), then Sam’s is losing control. So Dean prevented his biggest fear from coming true by making sure Sam’s did.
And despite everything that came after, Kevin’s death, Gadreel taking him over completely, Sam’s body being tortured to get Gadreel to talk…Dean still claims it was the right thing to do and he would do it again. That is kind of scary.
I have seen quite a few people say that Sam should go easy on Dean, that Dean is fragile right now and needs support not condemnation. He should make sure Dean knows that he loves him. Well Dean is the one who chose exactly what he wanted over Sam. At this point in time I don’t think Sam owes Dean a thing.[/quote]
So well put I only wish alot more people realized this . .[/quote]
Very well put and I agree that more people need to look at both sides of this and not just Dean’s. Put yourself in Sam’s shoes for a change.
[quote][quote]I feel like Sam is just heartsick right now. Twice he put Dean’s wishes in front of his own. At the end of Sacrifice he thought finishing the trials was the right thing to do, but stopped them just because Dean asked him too. Then in the season premiere he was ready to go with death, but again put his trust in Dean simply because Dean (or who he thought was Dean) asked him too. Look at what Sam said in both cases. How do I stop? and What do I do?. If the answer had been something Sam could live with, then no harm no foul.
But the answer wasn’t something Sam could live with. In fact, the answer pretty much trampled over everything Sam holds dear and believes in. If Dean’s greatest fear is being left alone (and I believe it is), then Sam’s is losing control. So Dean prevented his biggest fear from coming true by making sure Sam’s did.
And despite everything that came after, Kevin’s death, Gadreel taking him over completely, Sam’s body being tortured to get Gadreel to talk…Dean still claims it was the right thing to do and he would do it again. That is kind of scary.
I have seen quite a few people say that Sam should go easy on Dean, that Dean is fragile right now and needs support not condemnation. He should make sure Dean knows that he loves him. Well Dean is the one who chose exactly what he wanted over Sam. At this point in time I don’t think Sam owes Dean a thing.[/quote]
So well put I only wish alot more people realized this . .[/quote]
Very well put and I agree that more people need to look at both sides of this and not just Dean’s. Put yourself in Sam’s shoes for a change.
Ginger – a very thoughtful post and feelings I share.
Ginger – a very thoughtful post and feelings I share.
I don’t believe Dean still has abandonment issues where Sam is concerned. He may have had them up until S5 but his conversation with Cas at the end of “Free to be You and Me” kind of put them to rest in my opinion. Dean realizes that he is actually okay without Sam and that worrying about family is a heavy burden to carry. Sam unfortunately never heard this conversation.
I think Dean saw Sam as physically and emotionally wrecked after the trials and not in a place to make such a huge choice. Suicidal, if you will.
I don’t believe Dean still has abandonment issues where Sam is concerned. He may have had them up until S5 but his conversation with Cas at the end of “Free to be You and Me” kind of put them to rest in my opinion. Dean realizes that he is actually okay without Sam and that worrying about family is a heavy burden to carry. Sam unfortunately never heard this conversation.
I think Dean saw Sam as physically and emotionally wrecked after the trials and not in a place to make such a huge choice. Suicidal, if you will.
[quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@29.
We might not have seen it but we kind of do know what Death does reap people. We saw this in [i]Meet the New Boss[/i] when he said ‘I had a tingle I’d be reaping someone very, very soon. Don’t worry – Not you’ to the tied up couple. We have also seen reapers give people a choice. They can choose to move or they can choose to stay. Reapers don’t drag people kicking and screaming out of there! They can coerce and whatnot but there was always an element of choice. He might be Death, but he is first and foremost a reaper so there’s no reason to believe he wouldn’t reap people and follow the same rules other reapers have..
There was an interview with Julian Richings who said that he didn’t think it was really Death in the room. The reason he said he believed it wasn’t really Death was because he wasn’t eating in that scene. Now, that idea is rather strange because, not only do I think Death would be too professional to reap souls while scoffing down a Big Mac and milk shake at the same time (Good grief, if people saw that they’d think they were hallucinating and would never agree to go with him!) but Death wasn’t eating in half the scenes we’ve seen him in, and it didn’t make him any less real.
In the same JR interview he said he thought himself as akin to an uncle to Sam and Dean. He did respect them, which is why he, despite all his proclamations that they, and the planet, were insignificant, did help them on numerous occasions. Julian Richings also said that he (Death) would also be the one to reap Dean when the time came so if he’d reap Dean then it stands to reason he’d also be there for Sam?
I took the ‘Well played’ the same as you, to not only be an acknowledgement of what Sam had accomplished, but also in recognition of the fact that he was choosing not to disrupt the natural order by trying to stay.[/quote]
I was surprised when JR said that about 9.01. Sam asked Death – “[i]If I go with you… can you promise that this time it will be final? That if I’m dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away… and nobody else can get hurt because of me.[/i]”. Wouldn’t make much sense for Sam to have an internalized conversation about this, a manifestation of Death in his own mind, because he wouldn’t be a position to make such a guarantee, but Death would be.
[quote]@29.
We might not have seen it but we kind of do know what Death does reap people. We saw this in [i]Meet the New Boss[/i] when he said ‘I had a tingle I’d be reaping someone very, very soon. Don’t worry – Not you’ to the tied up couple. We have also seen reapers give people a choice. They can choose to move or they can choose to stay. Reapers don’t drag people kicking and screaming out of there! They can coerce and whatnot but there was always an element of choice. He might be Death, but he is first and foremost a reaper so there’s no reason to believe he wouldn’t reap people and follow the same rules other reapers have..
There was an interview with Julian Richings who said that he didn’t think it was really Death in the room. The reason he said he believed it wasn’t really Death was because he wasn’t eating in that scene. Now, that idea is rather strange because, not only do I think Death would be too professional to reap souls while scoffing down a Big Mac and milk shake at the same time (Good grief, if people saw that they’d think they were hallucinating and would never agree to go with him!) but Death wasn’t eating in half the scenes we’ve seen him in, and it didn’t make him any less real.
In the same JR interview he said he thought himself as akin to an uncle to Sam and Dean. He did respect them, which is why he, despite all his proclamations that they, and the planet, were insignificant, did help them on numerous occasions. Julian Richings also said that he (Death) would also be the one to reap Dean when the time came so if he’d reap Dean then it stands to reason he’d also be there for Sam?
I took the ‘Well played’ the same as you, to not only be an acknowledgement of what Sam had accomplished, but also in recognition of the fact that he was choosing not to disrupt the natural order by trying to stay.[/quote]
I was surprised when JR said that about 9.01. Sam asked Death – “[i]If I go with you… can you promise that this time it will be final? That if I’m dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away… and nobody else can get hurt because of me.[/i]”. Wouldn’t make much sense for Sam to have an internalized conversation about this, a manifestation of Death in his own mind, because he wouldn’t be a position to make such a guarantee, but Death would be.
@Ginger and Prix68
@Ginger
Do you truly believe that Dean was right to trick Sam into being possessed? Sam is still reeling from that, and Dean has yet to even admit that what he did was wrong. Sam spent the first nine episodes of this season being possessed and lied to, and he has barely had a chance to process that. Dean certainly didn’t respect Sam and his emotions, so why is Sam now responsible for taking Dean’s feelings into account?
Sam wouldn’t have wanted to be possessed for any reason, and Dean knew that. He trusted Dean to actively try to prevent something like that from happening, not to be an active participant. It’s not the fact that Dean saved Sam’s life, it’s that he essentially sacrificed everything else about Sam to do it. Dean didn’t have to pay the price, Sam does. And he says he would do it again.
@Ginger and Prix68
@Ginger
Do you truly believe that Dean was right to trick Sam into being possessed? Sam is still reeling from that, and Dean has yet to even admit that what he did was wrong. Sam spent the first nine episodes of this season being possessed and lied to, and he has barely had a chance to process that. Dean certainly didn’t respect Sam and his emotions, so why is Sam now responsible for taking Dean’s feelings into account?
Sam wouldn’t have wanted to be possessed for any reason, and Dean knew that. He trusted Dean to actively try to prevent something like that from happening, not to be an active participant. It’s not the fact that Dean saved Sam’s life, it’s that he essentially sacrificed everything else about Sam to do it. Dean didn’t have to pay the price, Sam does. And he says he would do it again.
[quote name=”Prix68″]I don’t believe Dean still has abandonment issues where Sam is concerned. He may have had them up until S5 but his conversation with Cas at the end of “Free to be You and Me” kind of put them to rest in my opinion. Dean realizes that he is actually okay without Sam and that worrying about family is a heavy burden to carry. Sam unfortunately never heard this conversation.
I think Dean saw Sam as physically and emotionally wrecked after the trials and not in a place to make such a huge choice. Suicidal, if you will.[/quote]
The has to do with what I think is an interesting point. It has always been my feeling that the co-dependency issue was solved by Kripke in Swan Song. I took EK’s saying in many interviews that Dean had to learn to love Sam, demon blood and all, to mean that he accepted Sam has a big boy, he told Sam that whatever his decision was about jumping in the big hole, he would support it, but that it was Sam’s decision. Sam then saved the world, with Dean showing up just to give him support in his final moments.
I think that making the brothers redefine their relationship as the story for this season trashes what was supposedly accomplished in 8.23, it dilutes all the stores that came before (as far as the brothers’ relationship is concerned), and it diminishes the premises of the show that hunting is an honorable job (i.e., setting for the show) and that the love of family is the root of all evil if you want to grow up and be your own person — something that will cause you immense misery throughout your life, not something that you can turn to for support in a chaotic world. That is the story so far we get since the Pilot, according to Sam’s logic anyway.
[quote]I don’t believe Dean still has abandonment issues where Sam is concerned. He may have had them up until S5 but his conversation with Cas at the end of “Free to be You and Me” kind of put them to rest in my opinion. Dean realizes that he is actually okay without Sam and that worrying about family is a heavy burden to carry. Sam unfortunately never heard this conversation.
I think Dean saw Sam as physically and emotionally wrecked after the trials and not in a place to make such a huge choice. Suicidal, if you will.[/quote]
The has to do with what I think is an interesting point. It has always been my feeling that the co-dependency issue was solved by Kripke in Swan Song. I took EK’s saying in many interviews that Dean had to learn to love Sam, demon blood and all, to mean that he accepted Sam has a big boy, he told Sam that whatever his decision was about jumping in the big hole, he would support it, but that it was Sam’s decision. Sam then saved the world, with Dean showing up just to give him support in his final moments.
I think that making the brothers redefine their relationship as the story for this season trashes what was supposedly accomplished in 8.23, it dilutes all the stores that came before (as far as the brothers’ relationship is concerned), and it diminishes the premises of the show that hunting is an honorable job (i.e., setting for the show) and that the love of family is the root of all evil if you want to grow up and be your own person — something that will cause you immense misery throughout your life, not something that you can turn to for support in a chaotic world. That is the story so far we get since the Pilot, according to Sam’s logic anyway.
[quote name=”trinaaron”]@Ginger and Prix68
@Ginger
Do you truly believe that Dean was right to trick Sam into being possessed? Sam is still reeling from that, and Dean has yet to even admit that what he did was wrong. Sam spent the first nine episodes of this season being possessed and lied to, and he has barely had a chance to process that. Dean certainly didn’t respect Sam and his emotions, so why is Sam now responsible for taking Dean’s feelings into account?
Sam wouldn’t have wanted to be possessed for any reason, and Dean knew that. He trusted Dean to actively try to prevent something like that from happening, not to be an active participant. It’s not the fact that Dean saved Sam’s life, it’s that he essentially sacrificed everything else about Sam to do it. Dean didn’t have to pay the price, Sam does. And he says he would do it again.[/quote]
Dont forget Kevin. Kevin paid with his life….and Dean – who claimed Kevin as family – said he would do it all over again. What does that say about how dean views his family? That they are expendable? Tools to use and discard at his liesure. but hey…its ok because he will feel guilty about it later?
[quote]@Ginger and Prix68
@Ginger
Do you truly believe that Dean was right to trick Sam into being possessed? Sam is still reeling from that, and Dean has yet to even admit that what he did was wrong. Sam spent the first nine episodes of this season being possessed and lied to, and he has barely had a chance to process that. Dean certainly didn’t respect Sam and his emotions, so why is Sam now responsible for taking Dean’s feelings into account?
Sam wouldn’t have wanted to be possessed for any reason, and Dean knew that. He trusted Dean to actively try to prevent something like that from happening, not to be an active participant. It’s not the fact that Dean saved Sam’s life, it’s that he essentially sacrificed everything else about Sam to do it. Dean didn’t have to pay the price, Sam does. And he says he would do it again.[/quote]
Dont forget Kevin. Kevin paid with his life….and Dean – who claimed Kevin as family – said he would do it all over again. What does that say about how dean views his family? That they are expendable? Tools to use and discard at his liesure. but hey…its ok because he will feel guilty about it later?
#83 Ginger, we are very much in agreement on the show at this point and the perception of Dean’s abandonment issues as a selfish reason behind what he did.
84 Amyh, while I certainly understand Sam’s anger over the possession, I think if Dean would (or was in a better place emotionally himself and could) fully explain his reasoning behind his decision Sam might not be so angry or feel betrayed. I also don’t think, as Dean said in this week’s argument, that he will apologize for making what he considered his best call at the time. Does Sam even know that both Charlie and Cas were saved because of the possession? Also I truly believe that Metatron would have hooked up with Gadreel even if he hadn’t been possessing Sam and used him to do his dirty work. Kevin was a dead man walking as far as I’m concerned. Sad but true.
#83 Ginger, we are very much in agreement on the show at this point and the perception of Dean’s abandonment issues as a selfish reason behind what he did.
84 Amyh, while I certainly understand Sam’s anger over the possession, I think if Dean would (or was in a better place emotionally himself and could) fully explain his reasoning behind his decision Sam might not be so angry or feel betrayed. I also don’t think, as Dean said in this week’s argument, that he will apologize for making what he considered his best call at the time. Does Sam even know that both Charlie and Cas were saved because of the possession? Also I truly believe that Metatron would have hooked up with Gadreel even if he hadn’t been possessing Sam and used him to do his dirty work. Kevin was a dead man walking as far as I’m concerned. Sad but true.
Amyh, that sounded harsher then I meant about Kevin. What I wanted to say is that even if Sam had died and not been possessed, I don’t think it would have changed where we are big picture wise now and if Sam and Dean had closed the gates of hell we might have been worse off. IMO
Amyh, that sounded harsher then I meant about Kevin. What I wanted to say is that even if Sam had died and not been possessed, I don’t think it would have changed where we are big picture wise now and if Sam and Dean had closed the gates of hell we might have been worse off. IMO
[quote name=”amyh”][quote name=”trinaaron”]@Ginger and Prix68
@Ginger
Do you truly believe that Dean was right to trick Sam into being possessed? Sam is still reeling from that, and Dean has yet to even admit that what he did was wrong. Sam spent the first nine episodes of this season being possessed and lied to, and he has barely had a chance to process that. Dean certainly didn’t respect Sam and his emotions, so why is Sam now responsible for taking Dean’s feelings into account?
Sam wouldn’t have wanted to be possessed for any reason, and Dean knew that. He trusted Dean to actively try to prevent something like that from happening, not to be an active participant. It’s not the fact that Dean saved Sam’s life, it’s that he essentially sacrificed everything else about Sam to do it. Dean didn’t have to pay the price, Sam does. And he says he would do it again.[/quote]
Dont forget Kevin. Kevin paid with his life….and Dean – who claimed Kevin as family – said he would do it all over again. What does that say about how dean views his family? That they are expendable? Tools to use and discard at his liesure. but hey…its ok because he will feel guilty about it later?[/quote]
I am not really interested in discussing justifications for either brothers’ actions. The story is what the story is.
I will just say that, interestingly enough, Dean has assumed all responsibility for Kevin’s death and has tried to absolve both Garth (for dumping Kevin) and Sam (who dumped Kevin in Crowley’s hands for a year) from playing any role in it, but both Sam and Garth did not let Dean pass that off onto just himself.
In thinking about it, though, using Sam logic, Kevin’s death is just one more thing being family screwed up. Cas, as a family member, was responsible for Kevin’s death because his act of trying to become the new God in Heaven is what caused Kevin to be activated.
Any way you look at it, though, Kevin being a prophet meant that he was a dead man walking. His role in the story was over, and I thought using him as a catalyst to jump start the emotional drama trauma was a good use of the character.
[quote][quote]@Ginger and Prix68
@Ginger
Do you truly believe that Dean was right to trick Sam into being possessed? Sam is still reeling from that, and Dean has yet to even admit that what he did was wrong. Sam spent the first nine episodes of this season being possessed and lied to, and he has barely had a chance to process that. Dean certainly didn’t respect Sam and his emotions, so why is Sam now responsible for taking Dean’s feelings into account?
Sam wouldn’t have wanted to be possessed for any reason, and Dean knew that. He trusted Dean to actively try to prevent something like that from happening, not to be an active participant. It’s not the fact that Dean saved Sam’s life, it’s that he essentially sacrificed everything else about Sam to do it. Dean didn’t have to pay the price, Sam does. And he says he would do it again.[/quote]
Dont forget Kevin. Kevin paid with his life….and Dean – who claimed Kevin as family – said he would do it all over again. What does that say about how dean views his family? That they are expendable? Tools to use and discard at his liesure. but hey…its ok because he will feel guilty about it later?[/quote]
I am not really interested in discussing justifications for either brothers’ actions. The story is what the story is.
I will just say that, interestingly enough, Dean has assumed all responsibility for Kevin’s death and has tried to absolve both Garth (for dumping Kevin) and Sam (who dumped Kevin in Crowley’s hands for a year) from playing any role in it, but both Sam and Garth did not let Dean pass that off onto just himself.
In thinking about it, though, using Sam logic, Kevin’s death is just one more thing being family screwed up. Cas, as a family member, was responsible for Kevin’s death because his act of trying to become the new God in Heaven is what caused Kevin to be activated.
Any way you look at it, though, Kevin being a prophet meant that he was a dead man walking. His role in the story was over, and I thought using him as a catalyst to jump start the emotional drama trauma was a good use of the character.
#85 Maybe Charlie and Cas would be gone but Kevin I don’t know Metatron and Gadreel didn’t know where the bunker was. Kevin might have been safe. But that is kind of beside the point. Sam is the one who has burned in his brain the image of his hand on Kevin’s head feeling him burning alive. Sam already knows why Dean saved him and that was the point of the conversation. Every time Dean saves Sam something worse happens and usually it has catastrophic consequences for innocent people. I could go into point by point from AHBL but everyone is familiar with the show. It is all in how you view the show. Some see that Dean is the victim and some see Sam as the victim. I see a very complicated relationship that is always going to be a work in progress. Dean wasn’t wrong to save Sam. With the information that he had at the time it seemed a worthwhile gamble. Sam isn’t wrong to feel betrayed. After all he just found out about all of this. And for anyone who doesn’t think that Sam would die for Dean didn’t understand what Sam was saying. He would never put Dean through what Sam has gone through countless times. He would never cause Dean that kind of pain. Dean doesn’t know what it is like to be possessed but I have a feeling he is going to find out. Then what will Sam do? I guess that is going to be the set up for the rest of the season.
#85 Maybe Charlie and Cas would be gone but Kevin I don’t know Metatron and Gadreel didn’t know where the bunker was. Kevin might have been safe. But that is kind of beside the point. Sam is the one who has burned in his brain the image of his hand on Kevin’s head feeling him burning alive. Sam already knows why Dean saved him and that was the point of the conversation. Every time Dean saves Sam something worse happens and usually it has catastrophic consequences for innocent people. I could go into point by point from AHBL but everyone is familiar with the show. It is all in how you view the show. Some see that Dean is the victim and some see Sam as the victim. I see a very complicated relationship that is always going to be a work in progress. Dean wasn’t wrong to save Sam. With the information that he had at the time it seemed a worthwhile gamble. Sam isn’t wrong to feel betrayed. After all he just found out about all of this. And for anyone who doesn’t think that Sam would die for Dean didn’t understand what Sam was saying. He would never put Dean through what Sam has gone through countless times. He would never cause Dean that kind of pain. Dean doesn’t know what it is like to be possessed but I have a feeling he is going to find out. Then what will Sam do? I guess that is going to be the set up for the rest of the season.
84 Amyh, while I certainly understand Sam’s anger over the possession, I think if Dean would (or was in a better place emotionally himself and could) fully explain his reasoning behind his decision Sam might not be so angry or feel betrayed. I also don’t think, as Dean said in this week’s argument, that he will apologize for making what he considered his best call at the time. Does Sam even know that both Charlie and Cas were saved because of the possession? Also I truly believe that Metatron would have hooked up with Gadreel even if he hadn’t been possessing Sam and used him to do his dirty work. Kevin was a dead man walking as far as I’m concerned. Sad but true.[/quote]
Prix…I’m going to have to disagree with you. Based on how the events unfolded I beleive Metranon sought out GAd BECAUSE he had direct access to Kevin via his possession of Sam. FAns can use all the ;IF’s” they want but the FACT of the matter is Metraon KNEW who GAd was. He KNEW Gad was possessing Sam. He KNEW Kevin was Rapunzelled in the bunker. He KNEW the only way to get inside the bunker was via someone who had access to the bunker. There were three people who had unlimited and unrestricted access to the bunker. Dean. Sam. and Gad. Dean adn Sam would sooner kill Metranon…so that left Gadreel…to which he knew EXACTLY what to say to manipulate Gadreel to not only work for him…but to kill kevin.
Metranon planned this all down to the last detail. ANd i beleive he knew Gad was pretending to be Zeke. He knew Dean would send out a prayer to ‘save’ Sam. I thiknk he KNEW gad…pretending to be Zeke would answer the prayer. And once he did….all of Metranons chess peices were set, His plan for Kevins death was put in motion.
84 Amyh, while I certainly understand Sam’s anger over the possession, I think if Dean would (or was in a better place emotionally himself and could) fully explain his reasoning behind his decision Sam might not be so angry or feel betrayed. I also don’t think, as Dean said in this week’s argument, that he will apologize for making what he considered his best call at the time. Does Sam even know that both Charlie and Cas were saved because of the possession? Also I truly believe that Metatron would have hooked up with Gadreel even if he hadn’t been possessing Sam and used him to do his dirty work. Kevin was a dead man walking as far as I’m concerned. Sad but true.[/quote]
Prix…I’m going to have to disagree with you. Based on how the events unfolded I beleive Metranon sought out GAd BECAUSE he had direct access to Kevin via his possession of Sam. FAns can use all the ;IF’s” they want but the FACT of the matter is Metraon KNEW who GAd was. He KNEW Gad was possessing Sam. He KNEW Kevin was Rapunzelled in the bunker. He KNEW the only way to get inside the bunker was via someone who had access to the bunker. There were three people who had unlimited and unrestricted access to the bunker. Dean. Sam. and Gad. Dean adn Sam would sooner kill Metranon…so that left Gadreel…to which he knew EXACTLY what to say to manipulate Gadreel to not only work for him…but to kill kevin.
Metranon planned this all down to the last detail. ANd i beleive he knew Gad was pretending to be Zeke. He knew Dean would send out a prayer to ‘save’ Sam. I thiknk he KNEW gad…pretending to be Zeke would answer the prayer. And once he did….all of Metranons chess peices were set, His plan for Kevins death was put in motion.
[quote name=”Prix68″]Amyh, that sounded harsher then I meant about Kevin. What I wanted to say is that even if Sam had died and not been possessed, I don’t think it would have changed where we are big picture wise now and if Sam and Dean had closed the gates of hell we might have been worse off. IMO[/quote]
Prix, how do you see things being worse off if the gates of hell were closed? I honestly dont see a downside to the gates being closed and show never put forth any speculation about bad consequences if the gates were closed.
[quote]Amyh, that sounded harsher then I meant about Kevin. What I wanted to say is that even if Sam had died and not been possessed, I don’t think it would have changed where we are big picture wise now and if Sam and Dean had closed the gates of hell we might have been worse off. IMO[/quote]
Prix, how do you see things being worse off if the gates of hell were closed? I honestly dont see a downside to the gates being closed and show never put forth any speculation about bad consequences if the gates were closed.
I think the only consequence of the gates being closed would be that Sam would be dead. Hence the title “Sacrifice”.
I think the only consequence of the gates being closed would be that Sam would be dead. Hence the title “Sacrifice”.
[quote name=”Ginger”]
… so why exactly is Sam mad? [/quote]
This is why people are complaining about the lack of Sam POV.
To me it is perfectly clear why Sam is mad – Dean tricked him into being possessed by an angel, after previous possessions had resulted in Sam’s body being used to kill innocent people.
But I could be wrong because the writers haven’t actually allowed Sam to TELL us.
(As for Sam being cross about the church, I’ve no idea. Could be poor writing. I never understood why Dean had a go at Sam for “losing your soul” in Sacrifice either, since that wasn’t even a choice Sam made)
[quote]
… so why exactly is Sam mad? [/quote]
This is why people are complaining about the lack of Sam POV.
To me it is perfectly clear why Sam is mad – Dean tricked him into being possessed by an angel, after previous possessions had resulted in Sam’s body being used to kill innocent people.
But I could be wrong because the writers haven’t actually allowed Sam to TELL us.
(As for Sam being cross about the church, I’ve no idea. Could be poor writing. I never understood why Dean had a go at Sam for “losing your soul” in Sacrifice either, since that wasn’t even a choice Sam made)
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”Ginger”]
… so why exactly is Sam mad? [/quote]
This is why people are complaining about the lack of Sam POV.
To me it is perfectly clear why Sam is mad – Dean tricked him into being possessed by an angel, after previous possessions had resulted in Sam’s body being used to kill innocent people.
But I could be wrong because the writers haven’t actually allowed Sam to TELL us.
(As for Sam being cross about the church, I’ve no idea. Could be poor writing. I never understood why Dean had a go at Sam for “losing your soul” in Sacrifice either, since that wasn’t even a choice Sam made)[/quote]
I have never had a problem with not knowing Sam’s POV until Road Trip, and then I had no clue what he was talking about. I do agree that Sam has carried storyline and Dean the emotional arc in every season, so the audience has gotten a clearer idea of Dean’s feelings. However, in this episode, the audience got a very clear POV from Sam and we know exactly what he is thinking [i]up to this point[/i] in the story.
As far as the soulless business, it would be easy for me to say that Adam Glass has a tendency to throw in the kitchen sink, but I don’t think that was the case. Rather, I think Dean still harbors deep hurt feelings that nobody told him Sam was out of Hell for a whole year and those feelings came out when Dean’s inner anger was amplified by the ghost.
Here, I think Sam does believe that if he had closed the Gates of Hell, everything would have ended, or at least he would not be carrying guilt (the guilt that Dean absolved him of) over Kevin’s death. (I also think there is lingering guilt in Sam from having abandoned Kevin and Meg.) Of course, the audience and Sam know this is not true, because Kevin’s death is connected to the fallen angels, not Hell.
Maybe Glass throwing in the kitchen sink is right, after all, if the season is actually dealing with all of their combined issues.
[quote][quote]
… so why exactly is Sam mad? [/quote]
This is why people are complaining about the lack of Sam POV.
To me it is perfectly clear why Sam is mad – Dean tricked him into being possessed by an angel, after previous possessions had resulted in Sam’s body being used to kill innocent people.
But I could be wrong because the writers haven’t actually allowed Sam to TELL us.
(As for Sam being cross about the church, I’ve no idea. Could be poor writing. I never understood why Dean had a go at Sam for “losing your soul” in Sacrifice either, since that wasn’t even a choice Sam made)[/quote]
I have never had a problem with not knowing Sam’s POV until Road Trip, and then I had no clue what he was talking about. I do agree that Sam has carried storyline and Dean the emotional arc in every season, so the audience has gotten a clearer idea of Dean’s feelings. However, in this episode, the audience got a very clear POV from Sam and we know exactly what he is thinking [i]up to this point[/i] in the story.
As far as the soulless business, it would be easy for me to say that Adam Glass has a tendency to throw in the kitchen sink, but I don’t think that was the case. Rather, I think Dean still harbors deep hurt feelings that nobody told him Sam was out of Hell for a whole year and those feelings came out when Dean’s inner anger was amplified by the ghost.
Here, I think Sam does believe that if he had closed the Gates of Hell, everything would have ended, or at least he would not be carrying guilt (the guilt that Dean absolved him of) over Kevin’s death. (I also think there is lingering guilt in Sam from having abandoned Kevin and Meg.) Of course, the audience and Sam know this is not true, because Kevin’s death is connected to the fallen angels, not Hell.
Maybe Glass throwing in the kitchen sink is right, after all, if the season is actually dealing with all of their combined issues.
Amyh – IMO It might have caused a further unbalance in the natural order of things. Similar to throwing angels out of hell. I just think that even after Metatron’s warning about closing the gates of hell last season, Sam and Dean never really stopped to consider the consequences of closing the gates of hell or on doing the trials.
Amyh – IMO It might have caused a further unbalance in the natural order of things. Similar to throwing angels out of hell. I just think that even after Metatron’s warning about closing the gates of hell last season, Sam and Dean never really stopped to consider the consequences of closing the gates of hell or on doing the trials.
trinaaron, i agree with your post. i too feel that one of the core issues of sam’s through the years was his need to control his life. it still continues today which is why what dean did hurt sam so badly. again, you need to understand sam’s history to understand why what dean did broke sam’s trust in him and why it’s so very understandable that it did.
just want to list the events that happened to sam which would explain why controlling his own life is so very important to him.
mary’s deal-sacrificing sam to yed in the first place.
yed’s blood- as an infant sam had no way of defending himself or preventing what yed had done to him.
sam’s confession in tge, telling dean that when he was just a little boy, he felt unclean. this feeling of impurity which is most likely why sam has always needed/desired to be normal.
sam’s inability to be normal because his father chose their way of life (also affected dean as well)
he tries to find that normal in college only to lose the girl he loves the same way he lost his mom.
he finds out in the devil you know that his best friend was a demon who was manipulating sam and killed jess.
he learns in swan song that some of his teachers and his prom date were demons. he found out that most people in his life were demons manipulating him.
then dean sells his soul, leaving sam to live with the guilt that comes with it. sam is stopped by dean over and over again in his attempts at saving him. in essence dean is controlling what sam can and can’t do. then in no rest for the wicked sam is left to watch his brother get shredded to death, having no control at all to prevent it. don’t you think that might be a traumatic moment that shapes sam’s way of thinking for the rest of his life?
meg possesses sam and kills a hunter, all the while sam is watching it happen, unable to stop it, having no control of his own body. he almost carved up jo.
lucifer possesses sam and snaps bobby’s neck. again at the hands of sam, while he’s trapped inside watching. feeling the bones in bobby’s neck snap and having no control, unable to stop it. do you not think bobby’s death at sam’s hands might not have a traumatic affect on sam? do you think this is something sam can just forget?
the lack of control sam had on his own body at two different times, both by evil beings, death by his own hands and his inability to stop it. this violation of his body and mind, would this not leave any other human being traumatized for life?
then the one person who understood how adamant sam was against possession. the one person who actually said to zeke that his brother would never ever accept that as an option to save himself, he undermines sam’s acceptance of death and allows an angel to possess his brother. he had to trick sam to do it, and then he lied to him for months and months about what he’d done..does one have to really ask why sam would say that his trust in his brother was broken?
when sam does finally learn the truth he also learns that kevin and abner and thaddeus died by his hands. again, sam had no control over his own body and again innocents died because of it. do you really think sam can just brush all that off? do you really think he’s not going to feel guilty? he’s always felt guilty and he’s had to live with these deaths on his conscience since they’ve happened.
then after everyone who’s died at sam’s hands, with the knowledge of how sam feels about possession, dean still confesses to sam that he would do it all again. dean’s confession is scarier than any mark on his body.
i totally understand sam’s response to dean, that given the same circumstances, he wouldn’t do what he’d done. there is a supernatural line that sam won’t cross. i can see why. they each have shared similar circumstances in their lives. they both went to hell. they both befriended monsters. there have been moments where ea. of them walked in the other’s shoes. but the one thing that has happened to sam that hasn’t happened to dean has been possession. dean has never experienced possession. yes they both had ghosts in them. dean had that bug in him. but dean has never experienced real evil inside his body. he’s never had a demon in him. never lucifer. never a rogue angel. with the acception of gwen who he shot when the bug was in him, dean never experienced killing innocents while trapped inside his own body. he has no idea of the kind of trauma that that has caused for his brother. maybe he can’t as he’s never gone through it.
there is the the other side that sam has never experienced that parental role that dean was made to experience at such a young age. a parental role that’s so hard to give up.
trinaaron, i agree with your post. i too feel that one of the core issues of sam’s through the years was his need to control his life. it still continues today which is why what dean did hurt sam so badly. again, you need to understand sam’s history to understand why what dean did broke sam’s trust in him and why it’s so very understandable that it did.
just want to list the events that happened to sam which would explain why controlling his own life is so very important to him.
mary’s deal-sacrificing sam to yed in the first place.
yed’s blood- as an infant sam had no way of defending himself or preventing what yed had done to him.
sam’s confession in tge, telling dean that when he was just a little boy, he felt unclean. this feeling of impurity which is most likely why sam has always needed/desired to be normal.
sam’s inability to be normal because his father chose their way of life (also affected dean as well)
he tries to find that normal in college only to lose the girl he loves the same way he lost his mom.
he finds out in the devil you know that his best friend was a demon who was manipulating sam and killed jess.
he learns in swan song that some of his teachers and his prom date were demons. he found out that most people in his life were demons manipulating him.
then dean sells his soul, leaving sam to live with the guilt that comes with it. sam is stopped by dean over and over again in his attempts at saving him. in essence dean is controlling what sam can and can’t do. then in no rest for the wicked sam is left to watch his brother get shredded to death, having no control at all to prevent it. don’t you think that might be a traumatic moment that shapes sam’s way of thinking for the rest of his life?
meg possesses sam and kills a hunter, all the while sam is watching it happen, unable to stop it, having no control of his own body. he almost carved up jo.
lucifer possesses sam and snaps bobby’s neck. again at the hands of sam, while he’s trapped inside watching. feeling the bones in bobby’s neck snap and having no control, unable to stop it. do you not think bobby’s death at sam’s hands might not have a traumatic affect on sam? do you think this is something sam can just forget?
the lack of control sam had on his own body at two different times, both by evil beings, death by his own hands and his inability to stop it. this violation of his body and mind, would this not leave any other human being traumatized for life?
then the one person who understood how adamant sam was against possession. the one person who actually said to zeke that his brother would never ever accept that as an option to save himself, he undermines sam’s acceptance of death and allows an angel to possess his brother. he had to trick sam to do it, and then he lied to him for months and months about what he’d done..does one have to really ask why sam would say that his trust in his brother was broken?
when sam does finally learn the truth he also learns that kevin and abner and thaddeus died by his hands. again, sam had no control over his own body and again innocents died because of it. do you really think sam can just brush all that off? do you really think he’s not going to feel guilty? he’s always felt guilty and he’s had to live with these deaths on his conscience since they’ve happened.
then after everyone who’s died at sam’s hands, with the knowledge of how sam feels about possession, dean still confesses to sam that he would do it all again. dean’s confession is scarier than any mark on his body.
i totally understand sam’s response to dean, that given the same circumstances, he wouldn’t do what he’d done. there is a supernatural line that sam won’t cross. i can see why. they each have shared similar circumstances in their lives. they both went to hell. they both befriended monsters. there have been moments where ea. of them walked in the other’s shoes. but the one thing that has happened to sam that hasn’t happened to dean has been possession. dean has never experienced possession. yes they both had ghosts in them. dean had that bug in him. but dean has never experienced real evil inside his body. he’s never had a demon in him. never lucifer. never a rogue angel. with the acception of gwen who he shot when the bug was in him, dean never experienced killing innocents while trapped inside his own body. he has no idea of the kind of trauma that that has caused for his brother. maybe he can’t as he’s never gone through it.
there is the the other side that sam has never experienced that parental role that dean was made to experience at such a young age. a parental role that’s so hard to give up.
i didn’t want it at first, but i hope njspn fan’s theory comes to play. i think dean should get possessed. i think dean needs to really understand what that’s like. i think sam needs to take the parental role. to be the one to save dean. i really think they ea. need to experience ea. other’s roles. i think it will be helpful in seeing where ea. are coming from, being able to both accept and change, and most of all …heal and grow stronger all the more for it.
i didn’t want it at first, but i hope njspn fan’s theory comes to play. i think dean should get possessed. i think dean needs to really understand what that’s like. i think sam needs to take the parental role. to be the one to save dean. i really think they ea. need to experience ea. other’s roles. i think it will be helpful in seeing where ea. are coming from, being able to both accept and change, and most of all …heal and grow stronger all the more for it.
nappi815 Yes to all of this! Also when Dean was possessed by the worm Dean he didn’t remember any of it. And strangely he wasn’t very affected by it.
nappi815 Yes to all of this! Also when Dean was possessed by the worm Dean he didn’t remember any of it. And strangely he wasn’t very affected by it.
[quote name=”nappi815″]i didn’t want it at first, but i hope njspn fan’s theory comes to play. i think dean should get possessed. i think dean needs to really understand what that’s like. i think sam needs to take the parental role. to be the one to save dean. i really think they ea. need to experience ea. other’s roles. i think it will be helpful in seeing where ea. are coming from, being able to both accept and change, and most of all …heal and grow stronger all the more for it.[/quote]
I think I’d really love to see Dean lost in the darkness, unable to find his way out. I’d love to see Sam be the one to save him (he doesn’t need to be parental to save him…although Sam is always trying to get Dean NOT to take foood from strangers) …to be that light he follows out of the darkness. I’m not sure possession is the answer – although Sam teasing Dean later when its safe about how he was possessed by a girl (Im assuming Abaddon). But…anti demon tattoo.
I think the mark of cain could be something that fits the bill…and its unique for Dean. But so far the writers haven’t done anything to suggest the mark of cain is a bad thing. and it seems even if it is….it was pretty easy to overcome on your own.
[quote]i didn’t want it at first, but i hope njspn fan’s theory comes to play. i think dean should get possessed. i think dean needs to really understand what that’s like. i think sam needs to take the parental role. to be the one to save dean. i really think they ea. need to experience ea. other’s roles. i think it will be helpful in seeing where ea. are coming from, being able to both accept and change, and most of all …heal and grow stronger all the more for it.[/quote]
I think I’d really love to see Dean lost in the darkness, unable to find his way out. I’d love to see Sam be the one to save him (he doesn’t need to be parental to save him…although Sam is always trying to get Dean NOT to take foood from strangers) …to be that light he follows out of the darkness. I’m not sure possession is the answer – although Sam teasing Dean later when its safe about how he was possessed by a girl (Im assuming Abaddon). But…anti demon tattoo.
I think the mark of cain could be something that fits the bill…and its unique for Dean. But so far the writers haven’t done anything to suggest the mark of cain is a bad thing. and it seems even if it is….it was pretty easy to overcome on your own.
you’re right. i don’t think sam necessarily needs to fill the parental role, but i do believe sam needs to save dean. i mean a big save. i still believe that he feels like a failure for preventing dean from going to hell. i think it’s his one failure that he hasn’t really ever forgiven himself for.
of course that’s just my opinion. 😉
you’re right. i don’t think sam necessarily needs to fill the parental role, but i do believe sam needs to save dean. i mean a big save. i still believe that he feels like a failure for preventing dean from going to hell. i think it’s his one failure that he hasn’t really ever forgiven himself for.
of course that’s just my opinion. 😉
@ nappi815 Post #96: I think it is accurate to say that Sam has always wanted to control his own life, but I would remind you every single time he has left Dean, it has been Sam’s choice to go back. This was true in the Pilot, when Sam said, “We have work to do.” It was true when he first met Meg (Scarecrow). It was true in Fallen Idols. It was true when he was soulless, “It’s just better when you are around.” It was true in the Amy debacle. It was true when he left Amelia (who, BTW, was a female Dean replacement in bossiness and attitude), and it was true when Sam made the choice at the church.
I have no doubt that Sam will choose Dean again at the end of this season, too. There would not be a show, if he did not.
@ nappi815 Post #96: I think it is accurate to say that Sam has always wanted to control his own life, but I would remind you every single time he has left Dean, it has been Sam’s choice to go back. This was true in the Pilot, when Sam said, “We have work to do.” It was true when he first met Meg (Scarecrow). It was true in Fallen Idols. It was true when he was soulless, “It’s just better when you are around.” It was true in the Amy debacle. It was true when he left Amelia (who, BTW, was a female Dean replacement in bossiness and attitude), and it was true when Sam made the choice at the church.
I have no doubt that Sam will choose Dean again at the end of this season, too. There would not be a show, if he did not.
[quote name=”Prix68″]
84 Amyh, while I certainly understand Sam’s anger over the possession, I think if Dean would (or was in a better place emotionally himself and could) fully explain his reasoning behind his decision Sam might not be so angry or feel betrayed.[/quote]
I can see that Prix68, but I also think that if the writers allowed Sam to explain WHY he was upset about the possession then Dean might understand why he should never ever do it again. Which he doesn’t understand at the minute.
While I think Dean was wrong to do what he did I understand the circumstances. But he needs to know he was wrong. Why on earth the writers don’t just let Sam explain this to him properly is beyond me.
[quote]
84 Amyh, while I certainly understand Sam’s anger over the possession, I think if Dean would (or was in a better place emotionally himself and could) fully explain his reasoning behind his decision Sam might not be so angry or feel betrayed.[/quote]
I can see that Prix68, but I also think that if the writers allowed Sam to explain WHY he was upset about the possession then Dean might understand why he should never ever do it again. Which he doesn’t understand at the minute.
While I think Dean was wrong to do what he did I understand the circumstances. But he needs to know he was wrong. Why on earth the writers don’t just let Sam explain this to him properly is beyond me.
[quote name=”Ginger”] those feelings came out when Dean’s inner anger was amplified by the ghost.[/quote]
Actually, Dean included ‘losing your soul’ in his list of Sam’s faults in Sacrifice (when there was no ghost to blame). This isn’t an attack on Dean BTW, just pointing out that sometimes the writers put things in that don’t really make sense, and this can put the characters in a bad light. So I try to let these oddities slide by and keep on loving both Dean and Sam.
[quote] those feelings came out when Dean’s inner anger was amplified by the ghost.[/quote]
Actually, Dean included ‘losing your soul’ in his list of Sam’s faults in Sacrifice (when there was no ghost to blame). This isn’t an attack on Dean BTW, just pointing out that sometimes the writers put things in that don’t really make sense, and this can put the characters in a bad light. So I try to let these oddities slide by and keep on loving both Dean and Sam.
I love this quote from another thread. I think it makes sense of the differences between Sam and Dean:
“I think that that last scene between the boys shows more clearly than ever before their fundamentally different belief in what constitutes LOVE.
For Sam love is respect and giving the person you love agency over themselves, so Dean’s statement that he’d do it again sounds both selfish and controlling,
Whereas for Dean, love is protecting and fighting with everything in you to help a loved one, so Sam’s response that he wouldn’t do the same thing for him, Dean takes as proof that Sam doesn’t REALLY love him.”
I hope the person who said this doesn’t mind me pinching it.
I love this quote from another thread. I think it makes sense of the differences between Sam and Dean:
“I think that that last scene between the boys shows more clearly than ever before their fundamentally different belief in what constitutes LOVE.
For Sam love is respect and giving the person you love agency over themselves, so Dean’s statement that he’d do it again sounds both selfish and controlling,
Whereas for Dean, love is protecting and fighting with everything in you to help a loved one, so Sam’s response that he wouldn’t do the same thing for him, Dean takes as proof that Sam doesn’t REALLY love him.”
I hope the person who said this doesn’t mind me pinching it.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”Ginger”] those feelings came out when Dean’s inner anger was amplified by the ghost.[/quote]
Actually, Dean included ‘losing your soul’ in his list of Sam’s faults in Sacrifice (when there was no ghost to blame). This isn’t an attack on Dean BTW, just pointing out that sometimes the writers put things in that don’t really make sense, and this can put the characters in a bad light. So I try to let these oddities slide by and keep on loving both Dean and Sam.[/quote]
Yes, I forgot that line and Carver wrote the script himself. Just goes to show you why the writers should be watching their own show, doesn’t it.
[quote][quote] those feelings came out when Dean’s inner anger was amplified by the ghost.[/quote]
Actually, Dean included ‘losing your soul’ in his list of Sam’s faults in Sacrifice (when there was no ghost to blame). This isn’t an attack on Dean BTW, just pointing out that sometimes the writers put things in that don’t really make sense, and this can put the characters in a bad light. So I try to let these oddities slide by and keep on loving both Dean and Sam.[/quote]
Yes, I forgot that line and Carver wrote the script himself. Just goes to show you why the writers should be watching their own show, doesn’t it.
OMG Amelia just a replacement in bossiness and attitude for Dean!! Hasn’t poor Dean suffered enough this week Ginger?! Lol True, but funny none the less.
OMG Amelia just a replacement in bossiness and attitude for Dean!! Hasn’t poor Dean suffered enough this week Ginger?! Lol True, but funny none the less.
[quote name=”Prix68″]OMG Amelia just a replacement in bossiness and attitude for Dan!! Hasn’t poor Dean suffered enough this week Ginger?! Lol True, but funny none the less.[/quote]
Hey, I love Dean’s bossiness and attitude. I love his drinking and doping, and even his raunchy jokes.
In all seriousness, I find those realistic characteristics for the hunting world, as opposed to Garth, Charlie, Krissy, or Daisy Duke. The bossiness and attitude are exactly those of a natural born leader in tough situations — they don’t stop to say the “magic words.”. Sam doesn’t want to be a leader, nor does he have the personality for it.
Which brings me back to the fact that I hate this storyline because Sam being a methodical researcher and thinking things through, connecting the dots to get a good idea of what they were dealing with, being empathetic with people; and Dean being one to act, to think outside the box, be quick on his feet in a pinch, intimidate when necessary is exactly what made them a complimentary hunting team.
As I said in my first post, these two were always different people with differing goals, which did cause minor and enjoyable tension that added to the dramatic effect in the episodes, but those differences is not what defined the brothers as characters and caused them to give the appearance of not even liking each other.
I absolutely shudder when I think of what Carver’s idea of ‘mature men’ might be. I know I am not liking it so far.
[quote]OMG Amelia just a replacement in bossiness and attitude for Dan!! Hasn’t poor Dean suffered enough this week Ginger?! Lol True, but funny none the less.[/quote]
Hey, I love Dean’s bossiness and attitude. I love his drinking and doping, and even his raunchy jokes.
In all seriousness, I find those realistic characteristics for the hunting world, as opposed to Garth, Charlie, Krissy, or Daisy Duke. The bossiness and attitude are exactly those of a natural born leader in tough situations — they don’t stop to say the “magic words.”. Sam doesn’t want to be a leader, nor does he have the personality for it.
Which brings me back to the fact that I hate this storyline because Sam being a methodical researcher and thinking things through, connecting the dots to get a good idea of what they were dealing with, being empathetic with people; and Dean being one to act, to think outside the box, be quick on his feet in a pinch, intimidate when necessary is exactly what made them a complimentary hunting team.
As I said in my first post, these two were always different people with differing goals, which did cause minor and enjoyable tension that added to the dramatic effect in the episodes, but those differences is not what defined the brothers as characters and caused them to give the appearance of not even liking each other.
I absolutely shudder when I think of what Carver’s idea of ‘mature men’ might be. I know I am not liking it so far.
Honestly Ginger I think Sam defers to Dean in the leadership role but I think Sam would be a great leader. In AHBL he instinctively took over and became the leader. In times when Sam is on his own he has a quiet leadership quality that comes out. In the brotherhood there can’t be two leaders so he lets Dean take the lead (as he has done since childhood) but IMO Sam is also very much a leader.
Honestly Ginger I think Sam defers to Dean in the leadership role but I think Sam would be a great leader. In AHBL he instinctively took over and became the leader. In times when Sam is on his own he has a quiet leadership quality that comes out. In the brotherhood there can’t be two leaders so he lets Dean take the lead (as he has done since childhood) but IMO Sam is also very much a leader.
[quote name=”Ginger”][quote name=”Prix68″]OMG Amelia just a replacement in bossiness and attitude for Dan!! Hasn’t poor Dean suffered enough this week Ginger?! Lol True, but funny none the less.[/quote]
Hey, I love Dean’s bossiness and attitude. I love his drinking and doping, and even his raunchy jokes.
In all seriousness, I find those realistic characteristics for the hunting world, as opposed to Garth, Charlie, Krissy, or Daisy Duke. The bossiness and attitude are exactly those of a natural born leader in tough situations — they don’t stop to say the “magic words.”. Sam doesn’t want to be a leader, nor does he have the personality for it.
Which brings me back to the fact that I hate this storyline because Sam being a methodical researcher and thinking things through, connecting the dots to get a good idea of what they were dealing with, being empathetic with people; and Dean being one to act, to think outside the box, be quick on his feet in a pinch, intimidate when necessary is exactly what made them a complimentary hunting team.
As I said in my first post, these two were always different people with differing goals, which did cause minor and enjoyable tension that added to the dramatic effect in the episodes, but those differences is not what defined the brothers as characters and caused them to give the appearance of not even liking each other.
I absolutely shudder when I think of what Carver’s idea of ‘mature men’ might be. I know I am not liking it so far.[/quote]
I’m sorry but i will have to disagree about Dean being a good leader. Alcoholism and bossyness does NOT make a leader. I think Dean has the makings of a great leader but honestly? Dean himself said he doesn’t think things through and I think a leader needs to do that. Think things through, consider consequences…consider everything. A Leader thinks about whats best for the group not just for one person. Leadership is also about accountability.
And most of all leadership doesn’t say when everything is FUBAR… I’d do it again exactly the same way.
And I agree with Leah…Sam would make a great leader…in his quiet way and he doesn’t have to intimidate or instil fear to gain respect.
[quote][quote]OMG Amelia just a replacement in bossiness and attitude for Dan!! Hasn’t poor Dean suffered enough this week Ginger?! Lol True, but funny none the less.[/quote]
Hey, I love Dean’s bossiness and attitude. I love his drinking and doping, and even his raunchy jokes.
In all seriousness, I find those realistic characteristics for the hunting world, as opposed to Garth, Charlie, Krissy, or Daisy Duke. The bossiness and attitude are exactly those of a natural born leader in tough situations — they don’t stop to say the “magic words.”. Sam doesn’t want to be a leader, nor does he have the personality for it.
Which brings me back to the fact that I hate this storyline because Sam being a methodical researcher and thinking things through, connecting the dots to get a good idea of what they were dealing with, being empathetic with people; and Dean being one to act, to think outside the box, be quick on his feet in a pinch, intimidate when necessary is exactly what made them a complimentary hunting team.
As I said in my first post, these two were always different people with differing goals, which did cause minor and enjoyable tension that added to the dramatic effect in the episodes, but those differences is not what defined the brothers as characters and caused them to give the appearance of not even liking each other.
I absolutely shudder when I think of what Carver’s idea of ‘mature men’ might be. I know I am not liking it so far.[/quote]
I’m sorry but i will have to disagree about Dean being a good leader. Alcoholism and bossyness does NOT make a leader. I think Dean has the makings of a great leader but honestly? Dean himself said he doesn’t think things through and I think a leader needs to do that. Think things through, consider consequences…consider everything. A Leader thinks about whats best for the group not just for one person. Leadership is also about accountability.
And most of all leadership doesn’t say when everything is FUBAR… I’d do it again exactly the same way.
And I agree with Leah…Sam would make a great leader…in his quiet way and he doesn’t have to intimidate or instil fear to gain respect.
Dean is a great leader because he can make decisions, even when they are difficult, and stick with that decision. He doesn’t waffle back and forth. He’s consistent. Although Sam has many good qualities he can’t stick with a big decision. He was going to fight for his relationship with Amelia then when he met Don changed his mind, sometimes he commits to hunting and then he changes his mind. Sam has said he would always have Dean’s back but now he’ll only have it sometimes if it feels right to him. He sees a light at the end of the tunnel and then not. Even when he was dying he was asking Dean for a plan in his head.
Dean is a great leader because he can make decisions, even when they are difficult, and stick with that decision. He doesn’t waffle back and forth. He’s consistent. Although Sam has many good qualities he can’t stick with a big decision. He was going to fight for his relationship with Amelia then when he met Don changed his mind, sometimes he commits to hunting and then he changes his mind. Sam has said he would always have Dean’s back but now he’ll only have it sometimes if it feels right to him. He sees a light at the end of the tunnel and then not. Even when he was dying he was asking Dean for a plan in his head.
#109 Sam took the high road when Don came back. He made the decision not to entangle Amelia in his dangerous life. When Sam has made catastrophic mistakes he tries to remove himself from the life so as not to hurt innocent people. Sam will always have Dean’s back but he will honor his wishes as well. As he said in TP, and I honestly can’t understand how it could be interpreted any other way, if the situation was reversed Sam would never do to Dean what Dean did to him. He would honor Dean’s wishes. Yes he saw a light at the end of the tunnel until it became clear even to Sam that the trials were going to kill him. Even then when Dean came in and threw him a lifeline he grabbed it. As it turned out no matter what Sam or Dean wanted Sam was going to die anyway. Sam didn’t want to die. Sam wanted to make sure that his death would be final because he didn’t want an unnatural resurrection to cause harm to Dean or any other innocent person. When Dean came in and threw him a lifeline Sam trusted him. Of course if Sam had known the plan he would have refused and Dean knew it which is why he lied. None of those examples would explain whether or not Sam would make a good leader or not it is about his trust issues with his brother. You can look at the show in probably a hundred different ways depending on which character you favor or storyline you like or dislike. It is all in perception.
#109 Sam took the high road when Don came back. He made the decision not to entangle Amelia in his dangerous life. When Sam has made catastrophic mistakes he tries to remove himself from the life so as not to hurt innocent people. Sam will always have Dean’s back but he will honor his wishes as well. As he said in TP, and I honestly can’t understand how it could be interpreted any other way, if the situation was reversed Sam would never do to Dean what Dean did to him. He would honor Dean’s wishes. Yes he saw a light at the end of the tunnel until it became clear even to Sam that the trials were going to kill him. Even then when Dean came in and threw him a lifeline he grabbed it. As it turned out no matter what Sam or Dean wanted Sam was going to die anyway. Sam didn’t want to die. Sam wanted to make sure that his death would be final because he didn’t want an unnatural resurrection to cause harm to Dean or any other innocent person. When Dean came in and threw him a lifeline Sam trusted him. Of course if Sam had known the plan he would have refused and Dean knew it which is why he lied. None of those examples would explain whether or not Sam would make a good leader or not it is about his trust issues with his brother. You can look at the show in probably a hundred different ways depending on which character you favor or storyline you like or dislike. It is all in perception.
Sam deal very well with normal people, Dean is a big disaster with them. But their reality is that they didn’t really deal with them. And Sam have many troubles with hunters and victims of montsers. Dean in that respect is better.
Sam deal very well with normal people, Dean is a big disaster with them. But their reality is that they didn’t really deal with them. And Sam have many troubles with hunters and victims of montsers. Dean in that respect is better.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]#109 Sam took the high road when Don came back. He made the decision not to entangle Amelia in his dangerous life. When Sam has made catastrophic mistakes he tries to remove himself from the life so as not to hurt innocent people. Sam will always have Dean’s back but he will honor his wishes as well. As he said in TP, and I honestly can’t understand how it could be interpreted any other way, if the situation was reversed Sam would never do to Dean what Dean did to him. He would honor Dean’s wishes. Yes he saw a light at the end of the tunnel until it became clear even to Sam that the trials were going to kill him. Even then when Dean came in and threw him a lifeline he grabbed it. As it turned out no matter what Sam or Dean wanted Sam was going to die anyway. Sam didn’t want to die. Sam wanted to make sure that his death would be final because he didn’t want an unnatural resurrection to cause harm to Dean or any other innocent person. When Dean came in and threw him a lifeline Sam trusted him. Of course if Sam had known the plan he would have refused and Dean knew it which is why he lied. None of those examples would explain whether or not Sam would make a good leader or not it is about his trust issues with his brother. You can look at the show in probably a hundred different ways depending on which character you favor or storyline you like or dislike. It is all in perception.[/quote]
A big amen to that….thank you for that
[quote]#109 Sam took the high road when Don came back. He made the decision not to entangle Amelia in his dangerous life. When Sam has made catastrophic mistakes he tries to remove himself from the life so as not to hurt innocent people. Sam will always have Dean’s back but he will honor his wishes as well. As he said in TP, and I honestly can’t understand how it could be interpreted any other way, if the situation was reversed Sam would never do to Dean what Dean did to him. He would honor Dean’s wishes. Yes he saw a light at the end of the tunnel until it became clear even to Sam that the trials were going to kill him. Even then when Dean came in and threw him a lifeline he grabbed it. As it turned out no matter what Sam or Dean wanted Sam was going to die anyway. Sam didn’t want to die. Sam wanted to make sure that his death would be final because he didn’t want an unnatural resurrection to cause harm to Dean or any other innocent person. When Dean came in and threw him a lifeline Sam trusted him. Of course if Sam had known the plan he would have refused and Dean knew it which is why he lied. None of those examples would explain whether or not Sam would make a good leader or not it is about his trust issues with his brother. You can look at the show in probably a hundred different ways depending on which character you favor or storyline you like or dislike. It is all in perception.[/quote]
A big amen to that….thank you for that
I know we aren’t supposed to say this but I honestly feel like I am watching a completely different show than everyone (well maybe not everyone) else. 😐
I know we aren’t supposed to say this but I honestly feel like I am watching a completely different show than everyone (well maybe not everyone) else. 😐
[quote name=”cheryl42″]I know we aren’t supposed to say this but I honestly feel like I am watching a completely different show than everyone (well maybe not everyone) else. :-|[/quote]
Not everyone 😆
[quote]I know we aren’t supposed to say this but I honestly feel like I am watching a completely different show than everyone (well maybe not everyone) else. :-|[/quote]
Not everyone 😆
I’m with everyone who loves both characters, but thinks Dean needs to stop controlling Sam so much.
I’m with everyone who loves both characters, but thinks Dean needs to stop controlling Sam so much.
I really liked this one. I was a bit sceptical at the start because the show has never done well with certain issues, and I feared weight loss would be one of them. Apart from Dean’s remark to Mala about how Wayne McNut is even her type, here, people’s desire to lose weight wasn’t treated in an overly heavy handed way. And let’s face it, if that clinic was local, even if we knew how it worked, the queues would be out the door.
Martiza was sympathetic and her story did tie in with the brother’s story, both past, present and possible future. I’m not quite sure what the point of sending her to Peru at the end of it was. I mean, if she wasn’t killing she wasn’t killing so why not leave her where she was? I’m assuming that Sam and Dean wouldn’t be okay if she started killing Peruvians. This bit came across as Dean trying to be the boss, have the last word etc, something we saw more than once in the episode ie when he decided he was going to be the one to talk to the ‘gym girl’ so he threw a little snide remark at Sam in an attempt to wrest superiority and then walked away.
I did appreciate the talk at the end. I don’t see Sam as ‘cruel’ or ‘blind’ or deliberately out to hurt Dean. What would be cruel would be to keep harping on at Dean for months on end without ever actually telling him what it was that bothers him. Was what Sam said honest? Yes. If it is what he thinks then it’s honest. Was it needed? Yes. To stop the same cycle of destruction then it was needed because Dean needs to examine why he keeps doing this. Was it harsh? Yes. However, the days of sugarcoating what needs to be said are over. Was what Sam said any different to the [i]multitude[/i] of times that Dean told Sam that he was selfish? Was it more harsh that what Dean said to Sam last season about how Benny was more of a brother than he (Sam) had ever been? Or when he said that all Sam did since he sat into his ride was to deceive him? Or calling him a monster etc etc etc. The reaction to those comments was minor in comparison to what Sam said. Is it a case that we expect those types of comments from Dean and so don’t react as much? Is so, what a damning indictment of Dean.
In relation to ‘selfish’, we’re all selfish. Every single, living, breathing person out there is selfish. I remember that Phoebe from Friends once argued that there is no such thing as an unselfish act and she was right. Dean is selfish for taking measures to keep Sam with him, regardless of what Sam wants and regardless of the cost to others. Sam is selfish for wanting to get away from hunting, regardless of what Dean wants. Let’s examine if there is any truth in Sam said. Were Dean’s actions in relation to Sam this season, and in seasons past, selfish? Dean himself said that his actions (in season 2) were. Were his actions in season one when he stopped Sam from killing a possessed John selfish? Dean trying to bust Sam out of the Cage (if it actually did, I have my doubts) was selfish, because he was risking the lives of other people to get what he wanted. His actions in season 9 were selfish, as was his declaration that he’d do the same thing again.
The cost of Dean getting what he wants is paid by more than just Sam. It is paid by anyone that Dean is willing to sacrifice in order to keep Sam alive, and I don’t think Dean realises this and if he does realise then it doesn’t bother him. Think about it, we saw this mentality from a character on the show before, someone who would go to great lengths to get his family back, regardless of the consequences and whether or not that family would want it; the much maligned Grandad Samuel. What’s the difference between Dean’s actions and/or mentality and Samuel’s actions and/or mentality?
Dean has a fear of being left alone, and takes measures to ensure that he’s not. We saw this back in the Pilot when Sam told Dean that he could do it on his own and Dean replied that he could but he didn’t want to. We see it every time he criticises Sam’s hopes and attempts of getting out of hunting, talking about them in the most scathing terms and sticking the ‘selfish’ label on him numerous times. Yes, Dean has Castiel but Castiel is an angel so it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that Castiel will return to heaven when all is done, leaving Dean, once again on his own.
Dean doesn’t cope well on his own, because he’s never really had to be on his own. Dean has always had someone around him whether it be John or Sam or Castiel or Lisa or Benny etc, Dean has always had someone with him. Sam hasn’t. Sam was on his own while John and Dean went on hunts. He was on his own when he went to Stanford. He was on his own when Dean was in Purgatory so Sam being without his brother doesn’t affect him the say way it does Dean, and so he no longer reacts the same way as Dean.
I really liked this one. I was a bit sceptical at the start because the show has never done well with certain issues, and I feared weight loss would be one of them. Apart from Dean’s remark to Mala about how Wayne McNut is even her type, here, people’s desire to lose weight wasn’t treated in an overly heavy handed way. And let’s face it, if that clinic was local, even if we knew how it worked, the queues would be out the door.
Martiza was sympathetic and her story did tie in with the brother’s story, both past, present and possible future. I’m not quite sure what the point of sending her to Peru at the end of it was. I mean, if she wasn’t killing she wasn’t killing so why not leave her where she was? I’m assuming that Sam and Dean wouldn’t be okay if she started killing Peruvians. This bit came across as Dean trying to be the boss, have the last word etc, something we saw more than once in the episode ie when he decided he was going to be the one to talk to the ‘gym girl’ so he threw a little snide remark at Sam in an attempt to wrest superiority and then walked away.
I did appreciate the talk at the end. I don’t see Sam as ‘cruel’ or ‘blind’ or deliberately out to hurt Dean. What would be cruel would be to keep harping on at Dean for months on end without ever actually telling him what it was that bothers him. Was what Sam said honest? Yes. If it is what he thinks then it’s honest. Was it needed? Yes. To stop the same cycle of destruction then it was needed because Dean needs to examine why he keeps doing this. Was it harsh? Yes. However, the days of sugarcoating what needs to be said are over. Was what Sam said any different to the [i]multitude[/i] of times that Dean told Sam that he was selfish? Was it more harsh that what Dean said to Sam last season about how Benny was more of a brother than he (Sam) had ever been? Or when he said that all Sam did since he sat into his ride was to deceive him? Or calling him a monster etc etc etc. The reaction to those comments was minor in comparison to what Sam said. Is it a case that we expect those types of comments from Dean and so don’t react as much? Is so, what a damning indictment of Dean.
In relation to ‘selfish’, we’re all selfish. Every single, living, breathing person out there is selfish. I remember that Phoebe from Friends once argued that there is no such thing as an unselfish act and she was right. Dean is selfish for taking measures to keep Sam with him, regardless of what Sam wants and regardless of the cost to others. Sam is selfish for wanting to get away from hunting, regardless of what Dean wants. Let’s examine if there is any truth in Sam said. Were Dean’s actions in relation to Sam this season, and in seasons past, selfish? Dean himself said that his actions (in season 2) were. Were his actions in season one when he stopped Sam from killing a possessed John selfish? Dean trying to bust Sam out of the Cage (if it actually did, I have my doubts) was selfish, because he was risking the lives of other people to get what he wanted. His actions in season 9 were selfish, as was his declaration that he’d do the same thing again.
The cost of Dean getting what he wants is paid by more than just Sam. It is paid by anyone that Dean is willing to sacrifice in order to keep Sam alive, and I don’t think Dean realises this and if he does realise then it doesn’t bother him. Think about it, we saw this mentality from a character on the show before, someone who would go to great lengths to get his family back, regardless of the consequences and whether or not that family would want it; the much maligned Grandad Samuel. What’s the difference between Dean’s actions and/or mentality and Samuel’s actions and/or mentality?
Dean has a fear of being left alone, and takes measures to ensure that he’s not. We saw this back in the Pilot when Sam told Dean that he could do it on his own and Dean replied that he could but he didn’t want to. We see it every time he criticises Sam’s hopes and attempts of getting out of hunting, talking about them in the most scathing terms and sticking the ‘selfish’ label on him numerous times. Yes, Dean has Castiel but Castiel is an angel so it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that Castiel will return to heaven when all is done, leaving Dean, once again on his own.
Dean doesn’t cope well on his own, because he’s never really had to be on his own. Dean has always had someone around him whether it be John or Sam or Castiel or Lisa or Benny etc, Dean has always had someone with him. Sam hasn’t. Sam was on his own while John and Dean went on hunts. He was on his own when he went to Stanford. He was on his own when Dean was in Purgatory so Sam being without his brother doesn’t affect him the say way it does Dean, and so he no longer reacts the same way as Dean.
The scary thing is that Dean either seems to be caught in some kind of dream world or else his higher order thinking skills are nonexistent. Jeez, when he said ‘You and me, fighting the good fight together’, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes. Apart from the fact that I’m left to wonder if Sam’s life has any meaning for Dean outside of being Dean’s hunting partner, but does Dean not see the connection between hunting and dying? Does he not realise that hunting will more than likely lead to Sam’s death, again? So the question Dean isn’t even considering is what he will do the next time that Sam dies. Will he keep bringing him back until the time comes when Dean dies first? What is Sam to do then? Is he expected to bring Dean back, is this what Dean wants? Sam really needs to get Dean to sign a written contract explicitly stating what Sam can do or cannot do in the event of his death, or believed death, the next time. (What’s even more remarkable is that at no stage has Dean considered giving up hunting!!)
I know there is plenty of talk that Dean does what he does ‘for’ Sam, but he doesn’t. He might believe he does, but he doesn’t. To do something ‘for’ someone implies that the person in question either wanted it or asked for it, and Sam didn’t. Dean does it because he wants to do it, because he believes that Sam needs/wants it.
Sam was also right when he said that Dean is willing to sacrifice as long as he (Dean) isn’t the one getting hurt. We had a school mass a while ago and Fr. Pa gave us this sermon that had to have been inspired by SPN, or Stephen King. We all know the story (and he told it much better than me). Basically, out in the wilds of some tiny island off the coast of nowhere, a child gets sick and dies. Soon after the childs mother and father fall ill and they too succumb. Before long, this tiny village in the wilds of some tiny island is wiped out by the mystery illness. Blah, blah, blah, it starts popping up in nearly towns and villages and eventually it gets to mainland Europe (or wherever suits). Governments are all ‘Oh fuckity, fuck’ cos there’s no cure as yet so they’re blood testing everyone to see if there’s anyone that holds the key to the cure or whatever. Lo and behold, the blood tests reveal your brother (who else) has something in his blood (probably demon blood!) that means they now have a cure. And there was much rejoicing cos they now have a cure. The downside is that they will need copious amounts of blood to do the sciencey things necessary to get this cure to everywhere that needs it. Basically, your brother will die. Your brother wants to do it because what is one life against the lives of everyone, you obviously don’t want him to do it and the doctors can’t do it without a signed consent from you so what do you do? Do you sign the form, sacrifice your brother and save the lives of countless people, or do you not sacrifice him and condemn everyone to death (yourself included)? Who is sacrificing there, and which decision shows love?
The way things stand in the show at the moment, Dean is the brother who won’t sign, and Sam is the brother who will. So, again, which is the better decision? Sam and Dean do love each other, but they show it completely differently. Dean shows his love by living for Sam and only Sam. Sam’s love for Dean is more selfless. He will put Dean’s choices, before what he wants, even if it means that he is the one who has lost or if it means being miserable etc. Think about it, Sam can walk away. He has shown many times that he can survive on his own, but he chooses to stay. That’s love.
The scary thing is that Dean either seems to be caught in some kind of dream world or else his higher order thinking skills are nonexistent. Jeez, when he said ‘You and me, fighting the good fight together’, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes. Apart from the fact that I’m left to wonder if Sam’s life has any meaning for Dean outside of being Dean’s hunting partner, but does Dean not see the connection between hunting and dying? Does he not realise that hunting will more than likely lead to Sam’s death, again? So the question Dean isn’t even considering is what he will do the next time that Sam dies. Will he keep bringing him back until the time comes when Dean dies first? What is Sam to do then? Is he expected to bring Dean back, is this what Dean wants? Sam really needs to get Dean to sign a written contract explicitly stating what Sam can do or cannot do in the event of his death, or believed death, the next time. (What’s even more remarkable is that at no stage has Dean considered giving up hunting!!)
I know there is plenty of talk that Dean does what he does ‘for’ Sam, but he doesn’t. He might believe he does, but he doesn’t. To do something ‘for’ someone implies that the person in question either wanted it or asked for it, and Sam didn’t. Dean does it because he wants to do it, because he believes that Sam needs/wants it.
Sam was also right when he said that Dean is willing to sacrifice as long as he (Dean) isn’t the one getting hurt. We had a school mass a while ago and Fr. Pa gave us this sermon that had to have been inspired by SPN, or Stephen King. We all know the story (and he told it much better than me). Basically, out in the wilds of some tiny island off the coast of nowhere, a child gets sick and dies. Soon after the childs mother and father fall ill and they too succumb. Before long, this tiny village in the wilds of some tiny island is wiped out by the mystery illness. Blah, blah, blah, it starts popping up in nearly towns and villages and eventually it gets to mainland Europe (or wherever suits). Governments are all ‘Oh fuckity, fuck’ cos there’s no cure as yet so they’re blood testing everyone to see if there’s anyone that holds the key to the cure or whatever. Lo and behold, the blood tests reveal your brother (who else) has something in his blood (probably demon blood!) that means they now have a cure. And there was much rejoicing cos they now have a cure. The downside is that they will need copious amounts of blood to do the sciencey things necessary to get this cure to everywhere that needs it. Basically, your brother will die. Your brother wants to do it because what is one life against the lives of everyone, you obviously don’t want him to do it and the doctors can’t do it without a signed consent from you so what do you do? Do you sign the form, sacrifice your brother and save the lives of countless people, or do you not sacrifice him and condemn everyone to death (yourself included)? Who is sacrificing there, and which decision shows love?
The way things stand in the show at the moment, Dean is the brother who won’t sign, and Sam is the brother who will. So, again, which is the better decision? Sam and Dean do love each other, but they show it completely differently. Dean shows his love by living for Sam and only Sam. Sam’s love for Dean is more selfless. He will put Dean’s choices, before what he wants, even if it means that he is the one who has lost or if it means being miserable etc. Think about it, Sam can walk away. He has shown many times that he can survive on his own, but he chooses to stay. That’s love.
[quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]
…does Dean not see the connection between hunting and dying? Does he not realise that hunting will more than likely lead to Sam’s death, again? So the question Dean isn’t even considering is what he will do the next time that Sam dies.
[/quote]
Very true and this is the thing I find most irrational about Dean. He insists that Sam keep hunting but freaks out whenever Sam might die as a result.
And that response ‘You and me, fighting the good fight together’ does make it seem that Dean regards having Sam by his side as more important than Sam himself. It’s really quite terrifying for poor Sam. Sam doesn’t really want to hunt and lately I think he’s been doing it purely for Dean’s sake. So Sam’s not allowed to escape hunting EVER according to Dean. Not by going to have an apple pie life, nor by accepting the inevitable result of their dangerous job (death). Talk about trapped! No wonder he is angry.
I do hope the writers have a plan and Dean’s character grows past his controlling tendencies.
And I really hope Sam finds a way to value himself again.
[quote]
…does Dean not see the connection between hunting and dying? Does he not realise that hunting will more than likely lead to Sam’s death, again? So the question Dean isn’t even considering is what he will do the next time that Sam dies.
[/quote]
Very true and this is the thing I find most irrational about Dean. He insists that Sam keep hunting but freaks out whenever Sam might die as a result.
And that response ‘You and me, fighting the good fight together’ does make it seem that Dean regards having Sam by his side as more important than Sam himself. It’s really quite terrifying for poor Sam. Sam doesn’t really want to hunt and lately I think he’s been doing it purely for Dean’s sake. So Sam’s not allowed to escape hunting EVER according to Dean. Not by going to have an apple pie life, nor by accepting the inevitable result of their dangerous job (death). Talk about trapped! No wonder he is angry.
I do hope the writers have a plan and Dean’s character grows past his controlling tendencies.
And I really hope Sam finds a way to value himself again.
#118 I’m sorry but how does Dean make Sam hunt with him? How does Dean make Sam hunt at all? Sam was apparently hunting separately while he was apart from Dean before they met up with Garth. Dean had no problem with Sam quitting hunting last season. Dean merely gave Sam the advice Bobby had given him. All in or all out, no in between, too dangerous. It certainly isn’t out of love or regard for Dean after what has been said in the last two episodes. Sam is an adult who has every right to choose his own path, as you and others have stressed, so why is Dean responsible for Sam hunting at this point? Sam is not possessed, not physically incapable of leaving Dean but Dean is still responsible for making Sam do something? Did Dean force Sam into the car? For Dean’s sake! Where is there anything to support that in the last two episodes? Is Dean now responsible for his decisions and Sam’s?
It seems to me that the way things have been going down, that for all Sam’s hurtful remarks, Sam is the one afraid of being alone without Dean.
#118 I’m sorry but how does Dean make Sam hunt with him? How does Dean make Sam hunt at all? Sam was apparently hunting separately while he was apart from Dean before they met up with Garth. Dean had no problem with Sam quitting hunting last season. Dean merely gave Sam the advice Bobby had given him. All in or all out, no in between, too dangerous. It certainly isn’t out of love or regard for Dean after what has been said in the last two episodes. Sam is an adult who has every right to choose his own path, as you and others have stressed, so why is Dean responsible for Sam hunting at this point? Sam is not possessed, not physically incapable of leaving Dean but Dean is still responsible for making Sam do something? Did Dean force Sam into the car? For Dean’s sake! Where is there anything to support that in the last two episodes? Is Dean now responsible for his decisions and Sam’s?
It seems to me that the way things have been going down, that for all Sam’s hurtful remarks, Sam is the one afraid of being alone without Dean.
[quote name=”Prix68″]#118 I’m sorry but how does Dean make Sam hunt with him? How does Dean make Sam hunt at all?[/quote]
Dean is not forcing Sam to hunt, but Dean doesn’t like it and pours scorn on Sam when he doesn’t. Just look back at the start of S8.
Have you ever experienced emotional blackmail from someone you love? I have, and believe me it makes you do stuff you really don’t want to do. I don’t think Dean is doing it deliberately, but he’s doing it.
[quote]#118 I’m sorry but how does Dean make Sam hunt with him? How does Dean make Sam hunt at all?[/quote]
Dean is not forcing Sam to hunt, but Dean doesn’t like it and pours scorn on Sam when he doesn’t. Just look back at the start of S8.
Have you ever experienced emotional blackmail from someone you love? I have, and believe me it makes you do stuff you really don’t want to do. I don’t think Dean is doing it deliberately, but he’s doing it.
Well, Sam is not being emotionally blackmailed now. I also don’t see how Dean telling Sam to go have a normal life was emotional blackmail in the second half of S8. There seems to be a constant theme that Sam should make his own decisions among fans, yet if those decisions/choices don’t work out for Sam the way they hope, then it is Dean’s fault because he some how forced Sam to make the wrong decision. Just like at the end of “Sacrifice” when Sam chose to stop doing the trials and now blames Dean for that choice.
Well, Sam is not being emotionally blackmailed now. I also don’t see how Dean telling Sam to go have a normal life was emotional blackmail in the second half of S8. There seems to be a constant theme that Sam should make his own decisions among fans, yet if those decisions/choices don’t work out for Sam the way they hope, then it is Dean’s fault because he some how forced Sam to make the wrong decision. Just like at the end of “Sacrifice” when Sam chose to stop doing the trials and now blames Dean for that choice.
[quote name=”Prix68″]Well, Sam is not being emotionally blackmailed now. I also don’t see how Dean telling Sam to go have a normal life was emotional blackmail in the second half of S8. There seems to be a constant theme that Sam should make his own decisions among fans, yet if those decisions/choices don’t work out for Sam the way they hope, then it is Dean’s fault because he some how forced Sam to make the wrong decision. Just like at the end of “Sacrifice” when Sam chose to stop doing the trials and now blames Dean for that choice.[/quote]
umm… did you watch 9.01, when Dean tricked Sam in to being possessed by an angel? Just want to make sure we’re both watching the same show. And Sam was not blaming Dean for stopping the trials, he was questioning his motives for doing so which, in light of the events of 9.01, is a reasonable thing to do IMO.
[quote]Well, Sam is not being emotionally blackmailed now. I also don’t see how Dean telling Sam to go have a normal life was emotional blackmail in the second half of S8. There seems to be a constant theme that Sam should make his own decisions among fans, yet if those decisions/choices don’t work out for Sam the way they hope, then it is Dean’s fault because he some how forced Sam to make the wrong decision. Just like at the end of “Sacrifice” when Sam chose to stop doing the trials and now blames Dean for that choice.[/quote]
umm… did you watch 9.01, when Dean tricked Sam in to being possessed by an angel? Just want to make sure we’re both watching the same show. And Sam was not blaming Dean for stopping the trials, he was questioning his motives for doing so which, in light of the events of 9.01, is a reasonable thing to do IMO.
#122 njspnfan – umm you really need to read my post in which I was asking why people keep saying Dean makes Sam hunt with him. One answer by another commenter was emotional blackmail. So are you saying Dean has tricked Sam into hunting with him for 9 years by using emotional blackmail?
What show are you watching?
#122 njspnfan – umm you really need to read my post in which I was asking why people keep saying Dean makes Sam hunt with him. One answer by another commenter was emotional blackmail. So are you saying Dean has tricked Sam into hunting with him for 9 years by using emotional blackmail?
What show are you watching?
OK If it makes everyone happy to excuse Sam for everything. Let’s just say that everyting that goes wrong is because of Dean. And if you love someone you should not save them. Choosing each other, means only one brother chose the other. Not both. And Sam is so wonderful he has no faults. Now that that is settled. what is this new showed called? because it is not Supernatural.
OK If it makes everyone happy to excuse Sam for everything. Let’s just say that everyting that goes wrong is because of Dean. And if you love someone you should not save them. Choosing each other, means only one brother chose the other. Not both. And Sam is so wonderful he has no faults. Now that that is settled. what is this new showed called? because it is not Supernatural.
[quote name=”Tristan”]OK If it makes everyone happy to excuse Sam for everything. Let’s just say that everyting that goes wrong is because of Dean. And if you love someone you should not save them. Choosing each other, means only one brother chose the other. Not both. And Sam is so wonderful he has no faults. Now that that is settled. what is this new showed called? because it is not Supernatural.[/quote]
With all due respect what has excusing got to do with it. Are we suppose to blame Sam then for the whole thing? , that he made Dean do what he did and therefore should not be at all hurt or angry at what happened.
I do not understand why people think under the same circumstances is akin to’ clear off Dean I wont save you at all even if you were drowning in front of me’ . Sam is coming from a place as the one who was possessed a number of times now and the one who was and has been used to kill innocents because of it , the latest being Kevin because of the Gadreel possession he was tricked into. And he is the one living with that memory of killing Kevin by his hand so why people think it is easy to judge him for his words maybe they should keep that in mind. .
[quote]OK If it makes everyone happy to excuse Sam for everything. Let’s just say that everyting that goes wrong is because of Dean. And if you love someone you should not save them. Choosing each other, means only one brother chose the other. Not both. And Sam is so wonderful he has no faults. Now that that is settled. what is this new showed called? because it is not Supernatural.[/quote]
With all due respect what has excusing got to do with it. Are we suppose to blame Sam then for the whole thing? , that he made Dean do what he did and therefore should not be at all hurt or angry at what happened.
I do not understand why people think under the same circumstances is akin to’ clear off Dean I wont save you at all even if you were drowning in front of me’ . Sam is coming from a place as the one who was possessed a number of times now and the one who was and has been used to kill innocents because of it , the latest being Kevin because of the Gadreel possession he was tricked into. And he is the one living with that memory of killing Kevin by his hand so why people think it is easy to judge him for his words maybe they should keep that in mind. .
[quote name=”Prix68″]So are you saying Dean has tricked Sam into hunting with him for 9 years by using emotional blackmail?[/quote]
I never said that the only reason Sam ever hunted was emotional blackmail by Dean. I never said that I blamed Dean for all of Sam’s issues. Mainly I blame John, Lucifer and Azazel for Sam’s issues.
Dean merely didn’t help with his repeated put-downs to Sam at the beginning of S8 (and on other occasions) which were emotionally blackmailing Sam into hunting. The effects of that didn’t simply disappear when Dean stopped doing it midway through S8, as we saw in Sacrifice.
And you say Sam isn’t being emotionally blackmailed now. I agree actually, but only because Sam is finally refusing to BE blackmailed.
At the end of 9.10 Sam has just found out about the possession and that his body has been used to kill Kevin because he was tricked by his brother.
Dean doesn’t apologise or let Sam talk. No, he goes straight into a woe-is-me tirade about how he’s poison and then walks away. To me that is emotional blackmail because Dean is trying to make Sam feel sorry for him instead of angry.
In 9.12 Dean says ‘we’re family’ instead of apologising. That is emotional blackmail. Sam has a right to be angry at family if they trick him.
In 9.12 Dean tries to emotionally blackmail Sam by listing the times he has saved Sam’s life.
Never once has Dean apologised for tricking his brother in the worst imaginable way AND he says he’d do it again. And people think SAM is a bad person because he’s angry.
Fair enough if people don’t like Sam, but I worry how turning the victim into the villain here will affect people who face real-life victimisation.
And no, Sam isn’t perfect. Dean is not always to blame. I am talking about this particular scenario only. But Dean needs to apologise for THIS scenario.
[quote]So are you saying Dean has tricked Sam into hunting with him for 9 years by using emotional blackmail?[/quote]
I never said that the only reason Sam ever hunted was emotional blackmail by Dean. I never said that I blamed Dean for all of Sam’s issues. Mainly I blame John, Lucifer and Azazel for Sam’s issues.
Dean merely didn’t help with his repeated put-downs to Sam at the beginning of S8 (and on other occasions) which were emotionally blackmailing Sam into hunting. The effects of that didn’t simply disappear when Dean stopped doing it midway through S8, as we saw in Sacrifice.
And you say Sam isn’t being emotionally blackmailed now. I agree actually, but only because Sam is finally refusing to BE blackmailed.
At the end of 9.10 Sam has just found out about the possession and that his body has been used to kill Kevin because he was tricked by his brother.
Dean doesn’t apologise or let Sam talk. No, he goes straight into a woe-is-me tirade about how he’s poison and then walks away. To me that is emotional blackmail because Dean is trying to make Sam feel sorry for him instead of angry.
In 9.12 Dean says ‘we’re family’ instead of apologising. That is emotional blackmail. Sam has a right to be angry at family if they trick him.
In 9.12 Dean tries to emotionally blackmail Sam by listing the times he has saved Sam’s life.
Never once has Dean apologised for tricking his brother in the worst imaginable way AND he says he’d do it again. And people think SAM is a bad person because he’s angry.
Fair enough if people don’t like Sam, but I worry how turning the victim into the villain here will affect people who face real-life victimisation.
And no, Sam isn’t perfect. Dean is not always to blame. I am talking about this particular scenario only. But Dean needs to apologise for THIS scenario.
[quote name=”Tristan”]OK If it makes everyone happy to excuse Sam for everything. [/quote]
Nobody is saying Sam is perfect. Nobody is blaming Dean for everything. Dean IS to blame for tricking Sam into being possessed by an angel when he knew Sam would rather die. That is a specific scenario.
[quote]OK If it makes everyone happy to excuse Sam for everything. [/quote]
Nobody is saying Sam is perfect. Nobody is blaming Dean for everything. Dean IS to blame for tricking Sam into being possessed by an angel when he knew Sam would rather die. That is a specific scenario.
#126 My original post was about why Sam is still hunting with Dean since he is perfectly able to leave Dean and hunting. You said Dean used emotion blackmail to keep Sam hunting with him and njspnfan jumped in to agree with that and not in a nice way. My answer to njspnfan followed that. Now your last comment is about Dean’s answers to Sam’s questions being emotion blackmail which had absolutely nothing to do with my original post about why Sam continues to hunt with Dean.
#126 My original post was about why Sam is still hunting with Dean since he is perfectly able to leave Dean and hunting. You said Dean used emotion blackmail to keep Sam hunting with him and njspnfan jumped in to agree with that and not in a nice way. My answer to njspnfan followed that. Now your last comment is about Dean’s answers to Sam’s questions being emotion blackmail which had absolutely nothing to do with my original post about why Sam continues to hunt with Dean.
[quote name=”Prix68″]You said Dean used emotion blackmail to keep Sam hunting with him[/quote]
Yes I did say that. You responded that Sam wasn’t being emotionally blackmailed NOW. I disagree that Dean isn’t trying it on right now. So I’m sorry I responded to the wrong post but the point remains the same.
I do agree that Sam has not been hunting JUST because of Dean for 9 years. But Sam hunting in S8 and S9 – I do think that it’s because of Dean. Partly because Dean poured scorn on him when he stopped after S7 which was emotional blackmail.
I think Sam also doesn’t want to leave Dean alone because he loves him and doesn’t want Dean to die on a hunt alone. But I think Sam would rather neither of them hunted at all and they had a nice normal brotherly relationship with football and BBQs. And I don’t blame him. They’ve done their share of heroics now.
I realise that wouldn’t make much of a show, but it doesn’t mean I don’t sympathise with Sam’s aspirations.
[quote]You said Dean used emotion blackmail to keep Sam hunting with him[/quote]
Yes I did say that. You responded that Sam wasn’t being emotionally blackmailed NOW. I disagree that Dean isn’t trying it on right now. So I’m sorry I responded to the wrong post but the point remains the same.
I do agree that Sam has not been hunting JUST because of Dean for 9 years. But Sam hunting in S8 and S9 – I do think that it’s because of Dean. Partly because Dean poured scorn on him when he stopped after S7 which was emotional blackmail.
I think Sam also doesn’t want to leave Dean alone because he loves him and doesn’t want Dean to die on a hunt alone. But I think Sam would rather neither of them hunted at all and they had a nice normal brotherly relationship with football and BBQs. And I don’t blame him. They’ve done their share of heroics now.
I realise that wouldn’t make much of a show, but it doesn’t mean I don’t sympathise with Sam’s aspirations.
[quote name=”Prix68″]#122 njspnfan – umm you really need to read my post in which I was asking why people keep saying Dean makes Sam hunt with him. One answer by another commenter was emotional blackmail. So are you saying Dean has tricked Sam into hunting with him for 9 years by using emotional blackmail?
What show are you watching?[/quote]
very well.. I shall clarify my point, and my apologies if you took offense. I was specifically referring to the part about Sam making his own decisions. That was not the case in 9.01 when Dean tricked Sam in to being possessed by an angel. He took that choice away from him. It would have been one thing if Dean told Sam the only way to save him was angelic possession, and left the choice to Sam, but that didn’t happen. He KNEW Sam would never agree to this, and, if the situation were reversed, Dean wouldn’t either. In my opinion, Sam was not blaming Dean for stopping the trials, he is questioning why Dean made the request in the first place. At the end of 8.23, Dean told Sam he put him first, but then turned around and immediately tricked him, then lied about it for quite a while. It perfectly reasonable, at least to me, to question someones motives for doing so.
In reading a lot of the comments, I notice there is a strong difference of opinion as to the gravity of Dean’s actions. Some are very dismissive of what he did; I’m not; it’s probably the most offensive and “wrong” thing Dean has ever done to Sam, and it goes against the concept of free will, something both brothers have fought so hard for.
As far as tricking Sam in to hunting, that clearly is not the case; remember it was Dean that left this time, not Sam.
[quote]#122 njspnfan – umm you really need to read my post in which I was asking why people keep saying Dean makes Sam hunt with him. One answer by another commenter was emotional blackmail. So are you saying Dean has tricked Sam into hunting with him for 9 years by using emotional blackmail?
What show are you watching?[/quote]
very well.. I shall clarify my point, and my apologies if you took offense. I was specifically referring to the part about Sam making his own decisions. That was not the case in 9.01 when Dean tricked Sam in to being possessed by an angel. He took that choice away from him. It would have been one thing if Dean told Sam the only way to save him was angelic possession, and left the choice to Sam, but that didn’t happen. He KNEW Sam would never agree to this, and, if the situation were reversed, Dean wouldn’t either. In my opinion, Sam was not blaming Dean for stopping the trials, he is questioning why Dean made the request in the first place. At the end of 8.23, Dean told Sam he put him first, but then turned around and immediately tricked him, then lied about it for quite a while. It perfectly reasonable, at least to me, to question someones motives for doing so.
In reading a lot of the comments, I notice there is a strong difference of opinion as to the gravity of Dean’s actions. Some are very dismissive of what he did; I’m not; it’s probably the most offensive and “wrong” thing Dean has ever done to Sam, and it goes against the concept of free will, something both brothers have fought so hard for.
As far as tricking Sam in to hunting, that clearly is not the case; remember it was Dean that left this time, not Sam.