Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×03 “I’m No Angel”

78 Comments

1. There were moments that I really liked but by in large in kinda sucked. Since when are reapers angels? or angel like? and since when do they need vessel? Tessa couldn’t choose her form. Of course Tessa couldn’t be seen unless you were an angel or dead. I guess they figure they’d already screwed the lore up so they might as well build on it. After all they called them “rogue”. UGH. I did like that they didn’t make Cas parts spoofy (though he fell into bed with that chick REALLY easily. I don’t know it went from confusion to sex really easily. It felt forced to me. But I still like the Dean/Ezekiel scenes. Even though Dean’s behavior was extremely questionable. And uh that’s about it. So at least I can get to bed early, since I have no burning need to discuss this one- so that’s good.

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2. Thanks, Bookdal. I admire your restraint.

   Last season, not one SPN fan liked Taxi Driver’s trashing of the Reaper canon – yet here we go again! Then there was Dean calling forth Zeke, the Cas healing, the ultimatum at the end for no good reason – in short, this episode was weak in many ways, many. I wonder how many gritted teeth smiles there were when this script landed in certain people’s hands…but, I have to say that they made the best of it. Big thanks to the folks in Canada! LA let you down on this one.

   By the way, loving the live tweets. What fun!

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3. I interviewed Robert Singer at Comic Con. I specifically asked him how they deal with getting canon wrong, especially when there’s a fan base that gets vocal when things go wrong. While I didn’t name names, I had Eugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner in mind when I asked that question. His answer was an artful dodge, but the problem remains. These two really, really suck at canon. And writing.

   It’s really sad those two always get away with such crap. Of course Eugenie is Bob Singer’s wife, so what can you do? I’m sure Carver doesn’t touch their scripts with a ten foot pole. I wouldn’t!

   I’m sorry, but this story was a hot mess. Like Kelly said, since when do reapers have the same power as angels? How in the world could a reaper have healed Castiel? WHY didn’t Castiel and Sam both call BULLSHIT! on that????

   Why can’t Cass stay at the bunker again? I didn’t get that whole thing about warding tattoos not working once he died. Don’t get it at all. Is it possible Ezekiel is playing Dean? The ending was completely contrived. Dean has to throw out Castiel or risk Sam? For no good reason other than a threat? Come on Dean, you need more than that!

   BULLSHIT!! Bad, bad drama. Anvilicious!

   Not to mention, just the way everything was pieced together, it was very sloppy again. Ugh, and Ryan Curtis just said they were shooting another one of their scripts right now. Oh Chuck help us!

   Okay, rant done. I’m probably being way too harsh, so I do apologize. I guess my problem is I had super low expectations, and even those weren’t met. Castiel (and Misha), both deserved a better story.

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4. I liked that. I have to preface my comment by saying that last week’s episode upset me and this one didn’t so I am prone to be on its side (I am guessing from the various tweets I have seen that I may be in a minority). But since I am still suspicious of subtle ‘what do you think that is supposed to mean?’ stuff – since over the past season it often doesn’t mean anything at all – I liked how straightforward and giving of information about the season’s setup this was.

   So I liked this episode. It did exactly what it said on the tin (well except for the last scene). It tried to pin down some stuff we have been speculating about, about how angels and people combine, what is required, does it work for everybody? What are they planning? (we still don’t really know why) and how is everyone going to deal with all this?

   I loved Castiel not being all slapstick and actually coming to terms with the world. It is time Cas got more worldwise. The world he found himself in didn’t really think twice about how odd he is, because they would be used to peculiar people. I liked how he seemed to fit in somewhere … poor Cas. I also like how he is coping with the world, not just learning how to live but trying to understand why.

   I loved Jared playing Zeke as well and for the first time in seasons it was nice to see glimmerings of Sam again, I miss him….

   I am sort of taking to the potential of what sort of knots Dean is going to tie himself into and how many lies he is going to have to tell … Dean’s little boy in trouble face while he tried to lie to Sam and Cas at the same time was really funny. It is a tough role for Jensen he has to balance awkward situations with the guilt he feels over them. I hope they can maintain the balance with the real seriousness of the underlying problem.

   I think I like the bureaucrat angels as well. It gets harder and harder to see the angels as ‘good’ just as soldiers. But why they should have such enthusiasm for revenge instead of solving their no-wing issue isn’t clear to me….
   I hope there is a background reason.

   I was really interested in why Zeke decided that Cas had to go. There absolutely must be a reason more than just Sam’s wellbeing. I don’t think that Zeke is a bad-guy but I also don’t think that Sam getting better is top of his agenda. I think that he has found the ultimate vessel to hide in (since it was Lucifers, it resisted Lucifer and it was strengthened by all the work the demons put into manipulating Sam) and a pretty secure batcave. I think the question becomes what is Zeke hiding and who is he hiding it from? So it is likely that the threat to leave Sam was purely to make Dean give in, Zeke isn’t going to leave Sam without a fight.

   I was so sad for Cas having to back out into the cold dangerous world on his own. I can’t imagine how Dean is going to convince Sam that it is the only way, what will his reasons be? At least I hope they give him a stolen credit card to ease his way (The morals on this show, tsk).

   Oh yes and Jared, Misha, Osric and Clif’s tweets were worth the price of admission all on their own 😀

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5. I really, really HATE that Dean called Zeke. Just having tricked Sam into saying yes to Zeke was a violation of Sam’s trust. Having Zeke take over and shove Sam to the back is sickening. Yes, Sam probably would do anything to save Cas, but to have him do it without consent or knowing is horrible. To me it’s worse than the demon blood drinking because SAM is suffering the consequences, not Dean.

   I’m thinking that Zeke may have wanted Cas gone because Cas may be able to identify him as not Zeke. No, Cas can’t see angels the way he could, but he would have memories to compare to see if Zeke remembers the angel Cas knows. It seemed flimsy to say that since Cas had died the tattoo didn’t work any more. Sam and Dean died over and over in season five (according to the never again seen Joshua, I wonder where HE is) and yet that didn’t affect the sigils carved on their bones. And Zeke saying he would have to leave? Dean jumped to the conclusion that he would leave Sam to die as opposed to taking control of the body and disappearing WITH Sam in tow.

   A lot happened here that makes me very uncomfortable. On the good side, for the first time in a long time I feel like the writers are writing Cas in a way I can like. He is no longer fish out of water, can’t understand humanity Cas. He is discovering being human and is more likeable to me for it. I do think he may be right that to reverse Metatron’s spell Cas may have to reclaim his grace.

   I also noticed that Zeke seems quite manipulative, telling Dean he can be useful, threatening to leave Sam to die. Zeke is no dummy and is playing Dean like a fiddle. Sadly Dean is becoming willing to lose Sam when using Zeke becomes a strategic weapon, much like Sam was using Ruby and the demon blood as a strategic weapon in season four.

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6. [quote]
   Last season, not one SPN fan liked Taxi Driver’s trashing of the Reaper canon – yet here we go again! Then there was Dean calling forth Zeke, the Cas healing, the ultimatum at the end for no good reason – in short, this episode was weak in many ways, many. I wonder how many gritted teeth smiles there were when this script landed in certain people’s hands…but, I have to say that they made the best of it. Big thanks to the folks in Canada! LA let you down on this one. [/quote]

   If you actually look at the history regarding reapers on the show, you’ll see that “Taxi Driver” actually didn’t contradict anything.

   1. Reapers can alter perception, they can make themselves look however they wish too. So it’s not out of the possibility that they could also make themselves visible at will.

   An example being the reaper from season one; the people he was about to reap were able to see him.

   2. Reapers were shown to have a physical/corporeal body.

   Two examples being, Tessa being possessed by Azazel. If she didn’t have a physical form, how could a demon possess her?

   The other being the fact that Alastair was able to physically handle Tessa and the other reaper when her was breaking one of the 66 seals.

   3. Rogue reapers

   The only thing that Death cares about is that a soul gets reaped when its time comes, not the destination. That is the natural order. Other wise they wouldn’t give the spirits a choice to stay or go. The fact that some reapers freelance, doesn’t break anything the show shown.

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7. [quote]
   I’m sorry, but this story was a hot mess. Like Kelly said, since when do reapers have the same power as angels? How in the world could a reaper have healed Castiel? WHY didn’t Castiel and Sam both call BULLSHIT! on that????
   [/quote]

   Since the season one episode “Faith.” There was a whole thing reaper that’s healing people, and living people could see the reaper (if only before they die).

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8. Not one of my favorite episodes either – I especially disliked the ending with Dean not even questioning why the bunker would not hide Cas. This is the guy that would not leave Cas in Purgatory. But – the episode did have a few good moments. Liked the brother scene in the beginning before Zeke popped out, the whole Clarence bit, and Dean’s pie explanation.

   One question – you are all talking like Cas’ hookup was a reaper. Is everyone sure the woman was a reaper? I thought she was an angel who possessed the girl to get to Cas. In fact, I thought she may be the same angel that Bart was threatening early in the episode – and that is why she was so strong, was torturing him for info, and died the way other angels do with the light coming out of eyes. And – why Dean’s idiot lie about getting her to cure Cas would make some sense. Anyone?

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9. So, Zeke went up a point last week when he killed the demons that would have undoubtably killed Sam last week (although at this point that might have been a bit a self preservation on his part so down a bit), then up a point when he brought Cas back (although I did have a problem with the way Dean was trying to get through to him, I mean, Sam could’ve been knocked out again instead of the whole I’m talking to you thing) but then down a point for his ultimatum to kick Cas out. Admittedly, part of that is because of the kicking Cas out part, because I hate to see Dean doing something he doesn’t want to do and the look on Cas’s face was heartbreaking. It’s the whole either he goes or I go thing and, of course, Dean has to tell Cas to go because Sam might not survive if Zeke leaves but those kind of ultimatum’s never sit well with me. It’s a low blow and I feel that Dean is being played. For what, I don’t know because he can’t be after Cas or he would’ve just let him die but what is he after?

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10. Oh my goodness but I don’t trust Zeke anymore and neither should Dean!!! How can Zeke be ok with the King of Hell in the bunker but not an impotent angel (ok well not THAT impotent)

    I get a feeling that Dean is being set up by him! I know we don’t have proof yet, but it smacks like the Ruby thing way back when. I am sure everyone was hoping that Ruby would turn out ok, and look how that turned out.

    I think he has got a cheek just turning up whenever he feels like it and Dean shouldn’t be calling him up either, he needs to rely on Sam now!!! What I am LOVING is the acting between Jared and Jensen, they are just rocking this season not?

    I hope Zeke is going to turn out ok coz I am SO not into ANOTHER Zachariah repeat. I keep on looking for potential characters for the spin off series, and think that good Zeke would make a nice spin off series.

    Detroit is an interesting concept!

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11. One question – you are all talking like Cas’ hookup was a reaper. Is everyone sure the woman was a reaper? I thought she was an angel who possessed the girl to get to Cas. In fact, I thought she may be the same angel that Bart was threatening early in the episode – and that is why she was so strong, was torturing him for info, and died the way other angels do with the light coming out of eyes. And – why Dean’s idiot lie about getting her to cure Cas would make some sense. Anyone?[/quote]

    I agree with you SHE WAS AN AGNGEL NOT A REAPER. Their are two types of reapers the ones in episodes like Faith and Deaths Door and then their are Reapers like in TAXI DRIVER, who can also be seen.
    Stop dissing on the episode everyone it was brilliant

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12. [quote][quote]
    I’m sorry, but this story was a hot mess. Like Kelly said, since when do reapers have the same power as angels? How in the world could a reaper have healed Castiel? WHY didn’t Castiel and Sam both call BULLSHIT! on that????
    [/quote]

    Since the season one episode “Faith.” There was a whole thing reaper that’s healing people, and living people could see the reaper (if only before they die).[/quote]

    I think you’re right, about Faith. And demons can’t heal, so I guess they were using reapers to heal humans when there is a deal, even against the reaper’s will, like when they healed Dean through Tessa in IMTD.

    So maybe, yes, they have bodies that can be possessed, but can choose their form or to be or not visible to humans.

    What I don’t undertand is why a reaper would choose to stay visible to be tortured by Sam and Dean, like what happened in this episode – I would disapeared right away.

    This is giving me some trouble since Taxi Driver.

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13. [quote]One question – you are all talking like Cas’ hookup was a reaper. Is everyone sure the woman was a reaper? I thought she was an angel who possessed the girl to get to Cas. In fact, I thought she may be the same angel that Bart was threatening early in the episode – and that is why she was so strong, was torturing him for info, and died the way other angels do with the light coming out of eyes. And – why Dean’s idiot lie about getting her to cure Cas would make some sense. Anyone?[/quote]

    I agree with you SHE WAS AN AGNGEL NOT A REAPER. Their are two types of reapers the ones in episodes like Faith and Deaths Door and then their are Reapers like in TAXI DRIVER, who can also be seen.
    Stop dissing on the episode everyone it was brilliant[/quote]

    No, she was a reapper. Reapers can heal since Faith, as Mick pointed out above.

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14. well i knew going in that this would be the weakest of the three eps so knowing that i can put out there that at least it wasn’t as bad or boring as i expected. so there’s a plus.
    regarding the reaper stuff, i don’t really see it as going against canon as much as i see it adding to canon. we are, after all dealing with another type of “angel” so to speak. i mean aren’t reapers angels of death. it seems to me that reapers are angels who work for Death himself. they aren’t demons from hell. i look at reapers like i look at the secret service. they’re specific angels that work for a specific branch of the Natural Order heirarchy. i always thought God and Death went hand in hand. God provides humans a safe haven, a sanctuary once they die, but it’s Death that gets them there. so i don’t find it hard to believe that some reapers have gone freelance. even the angels in heaven saw to it to go rogue, zachariah anyone. i don’t see the idea of rogue reapers as going against canon. i did think the girl cas was with was another rogue, but as i said, she is imo, an angel of death, which is why she would die like any other angel, with the light and all.

    i thought that dean calling on zeke, which i agree is a bad idea and hopefully not a habit, made sense. when it comes to saving his family dean will do what it takes and he felt as though cas was truly running out of time, which was true. the ending made sense as well, going back to dean’s true feelings in sacrifice, where nothing past or present comes before sam. so kicking cas out was not a surprise given his choice.
    i’m still not so sure zeke is bad. i mean, he originally told dean that he believed in his mission and he believed in cas. cas told dean he was a good soldier, with a smile like he knows him on a personal level. so if all these angels are after cas, and there are factions where you have angels who are pro cas and angels who are anti cas, it would make sense that zeke would fear for his safety as he admitted to being pro cas. if he has fought with cas in the past then it would make sense that angels would go after him, especially this bartholomew. i still think it’s possible that zeke is who he says he is and steering clear of cas is for his own safety and thus the winchesters as well. so for now, i’m taking zeke at his word as i do get where he is coming from. but of course it is too possible that there is something up with him. i mean he could have a secret he’s keeping from dean, but i dont think that necessarily makes him a bad guy, i mean dean is keeping a secret as well right? . we don’t know that much about zeke except that he’s a good soldier who seems to have history with cas as cas did recollect zeke with a fondness that comes from personal knowledge. zeke does also have a genuine compassion. he didn’t have to save cas, dean didn’t ask him to. we don’t really know much about him.he could have been in some kind of trouble, perhaps on naomi’s hit list for all we know. when dean sent out the call, zeke took the opportunity to help a winchester who promised a favor in return. having a winchester in your corner is definitely a positive. zeke admitted to dean that it’s mutually beneficial for both sam and himself. sam could be protecting zeke and in return, zeke is healing sam. when zeke leaves sam, and i have no doubt he will, he may further need the assistance of both winchesters…so it could be very true that it’s not all out of the goodness of zeke’s heart he’s helping the boys, but like i said, it doesn’t mean he’s bad either. for now i’m taking zeke for what he is..with a dash of caution and a tablespoon of hope. 😉

    i think they need to stop banging sam on the head so zeke can come out…sam is not incompetent and he definitely doesn’t get knocked out all the time. that needs to stop like now. i’ll just chock this one up to the fact that sam is still sick even though he doesn’t know or feel it. seriously how many times is sam going to buy that dean just saved the day again single handed without even a cut or a bump. he’s no fool and dean’s not that good a liar.
    did like the shout out to meg, miss her already, having cas take the name clarence and sam recognizing that meg is the one who coined that name for cas….he was after all, as sam knows, her unicorn.
    did have a laugh out loud moment as cas explained to dean that he did indeed have protection when having sex with april .
    do love the job sam is doing as zeke, but am really hoping that next week zeke does not make an appearance. i think i’m ready for just sam now. could do with an ep or two without an angel appearance. 🙂

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15. This was just an okay episode. Everything was good except the writing, which seemed lazy and predictable. This was the first episode in some time that I didn’t rewatch immediately afterwards

    Not sure why everyone is still up in arms about the rogue reaper thing – it’s an extension of canon, not a change. I don’t remember people being up in arms last year when, in Pac-Man Fever they introduced a new offshoot of Dijinn that leaves blue handprints and turns your insides to jelly. In season 1, it was established that reapers could heal (but had to take another life to do it) so Dean’s lie wasn’t really messing with canon. But… this Sam getting knocked unconscious and Zeke coming to the rescue is starting to be overplayed.

    I am glad they finally gave Castiel a decent storyline and not just the role of the idiot angel always being duped, or as comic relief; hopefully the writers will do better with it in future episodes.

    Dean’s lies are already starting to pile up and I think Sam is already getting a bit suspicious. Even after all the blows to the head, Sam is going to catch on soon.

    While sad, I wasn’t surprised that Castiel had to leave the bat cave; in Sweetondean’s spoiler-lite preview, I had brought this up, wondering how long Castiel could hang around. Just wondering how Dean is going to explain this to Sam.

    What annoyed me in this episode was something that wasn’t said. In 9.01, Castiel knew that Sam was dying in the hospital and that Dean had asked Zeke to try to help him. Are you telling me that in the drive back to the bat cave this didn’t come up once? Castiel never questioned why and how Sam was doing so much better? In 8.19 Goodbye Stranger, Castiel said that Sam was damaged in ways that even he couldn’t heal. If Castiel couldn’t heal him, how is Zeke able to heal him? Is it because he’s possessing Sam and healing him slowly from the inside? It just seemed a little sloppy to me that they haven’t addressed this.

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16. [quote]So, Zeke went up a point last week when he killed the demons that would have undoubtably killed Sam last week (although at this point that might have been a bit a self preservation on his part so down a bit), then up a point when he brought Cas back (although I did have a problem with the way Dean was trying to get through to him, I mean, Sam could’ve been knocked out again instead of the whole I’m talking to you thing) but then down a point for his ultimatum to kick Cas out.[/quote]

    Well I’m deducting at least one point from Zeke for killing the soldiers last week to keep his secret. We saw that the soldiers were human before Abaddon got to them. They were only possessed for a few hours, not a lot of time to get the bodies damaged, other people who were possessed have survived for longer periods of time without being so damaged they were going to die (Sam in BUABS, the serial killer, the nurse from Lucifer Rising that people TO THIS DAY use to say Sam is unforgivable). Zeke had the power to expel the demons and leave the trapped innocent soldiers intact and alive and he killed the soldiers instead. For me, that is lots of points off for Zeke and no one will convince me that Sam would be fine with three people dying to keep him alive and possessed. Sam was very, very clear NO ONE was to be hurt by him being alive. And just to deal with it upfront, if Dean had killed them it would have been because he didn’t have the ability to exorcise three demons quickly enough to save Sam and himself. Zeke is powerful and had the time and ability to do it and chose to kill.

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17. [quote][quote]So, Zeke went up a point last week when he killed the demons that would have undoubtably killed Sam last week (although at this point that might have been a bit a self preservation on his part so down a bit), then up a point when he brought Cas back (although I did have a problem with the way Dean was trying to get through to him, I mean, Sam could’ve been knocked out again instead of the whole I’m talking to you thing) but then down a point for his ultimatum to kick Cas out.[/quote]

    Well I’m deducting at least one point from Zeke for killing the soldiers last week to keep his secret. We saw that the soldiers were human before Abaddon got to them. They were only possessed for a few hours, not a lot of time to get the bodies damaged, other people who were possessed have survived for longer periods of time without being so damaged they were going to die (Sam in BUABS, the serial killer, the nurse from Lucifer Rising that people TO THIS DAY use to say Sam is unforgivable). Zeke had the power to expel the demons and leave the trapped innocent soldiers intact and alive and he killed the soldiers instead. For me, that is lots of points off for Zeke and no one will convince me that Sam would be fine with three people dying to keep him alive and possessed. Sam was very, very clear NO ONE was to be hurt by him being alive. And just to deal with it upfront, if Dean had killed them it would have been because he didn’t have the ability to exorcise three demons quickly enough to save Sam and himself. Zeke is powerful and had the time and ability to do it and chose to kill.[/quote]

    I gave Zeke a pass on that one; given his weakened condition, he needed to take them out fast.

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18. Since I’ve had a chance to sleep on it I’ll share more thoughts, but first, admin duties…

    Luciano, you’re officially warned. All opinions here are welcome, so don’t scold us for not liking an episode. I’m cool with you thinking the episode was brilliant but as you can tell others didn’t. Respect that or your posts will be edited.

    Okay, back to the episode. I’ll tell you what my greatest objection to this episode is. The fact that these lazy writers wrote themselves into a corner with Ezekiel healing Castiel (which I honestly had no problem with) and got out of it by trashing canon, or at least pulling a retcon stunt. Since when can reapers do a TK toss? If that was true, how did Sam and Dean manage to capture, interrogate and kill that other reaper so easily? That is just one example of the weak plotting, on top of the healing thing.

    I agree, why didn’t Castiel ask what happened to Sam? Confirm with Dean Ezekiel could help? But I’m sick that Dean didn’t take measures to protect both Castiel and Ezekiel. What happened to his “There’s always a way” mentality? His talk with Castiel was contrived and weak. I would have preferred that Castiel chose on his own to leave to protect the bunker. Wouldn’t Castiel have known he was putting the bunker in danger?

    My only objections are to the weak and lazy plotting. I loved Castiel’s talk with the woman in the church. You think someone out there is listening? I also thought the girl blowing up was really funny.

    I’m still not sure I’ll have time for a review this week, but I’ll see. I’ll be at Chicago Con this weekend, so that complicates things.

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19. Oh, and why rogue reapers at all? Why couldn’t an angel have tailed Sam and Dean to find Castiel? I thought Castiel’s tattoo only hid him from angels. Obviously it doesn’t keep them away or Sam/Ezekiel would have gone poof. That would have reconciled a few inconsistencies at least.

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20. Hey Bookdal, thanks for the recap and for mentioning “Starman”, one of my favourite Jeff Bridges movies. I wasn’t expecting too much out of these writers, I really don’t care too much for what they’ve done in the past, and yes I guess being the wife of the executive producer gives you free reign. That being said, I kinda liked it. I thought that Cas was fleshed out (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) quite nicely. The fact that he fell in with homeless people who share what little they have with him was a nice touch. As for the reaper lore, I know they changed it up in “Taxi Driver” but I’ll let that one pass, although I’m not that happy about it. And I agree with a few posters, I think the girl was an angel and not a reaper. Was it said anywhere in the episode that she was a reaper? She seemed more like an angry angel to me.

    As for Dean asking for Zeke to come out and play, I’m reserving judgment. I don’t think it’s a good thing, and I’m afraid it will bite him in the ass one day. But I get why he did it to save Cas, he’s part of the Winchester family. At one point though, Sam will realize that “something is rotten in the state of Denmark”. And face it, Dean is looking more and more uncomfortable with lying to his brother.

    Why Zeke told Dean that Cas had to go makes me very nervous as to his motivation. And he basically threatened to leave Sam & Dean in the lurch if Dean didn’t tell Cas to go, just like a petulant child. I don’t believe him for one second when he says that Cas being in the bunker is dangerous for all three, more like Cas will be able to see his true nature.

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21. [quote]Oh, and why rogue reapers at all? Why couldn’t an angel have tailed Sam and Dean to find Castiel? I thought Castiel’s tattoo only hid him from angels. Obviously it doesn’t keep them away or Sam/Ezekiel would have gone poof. That would have reconciled a few inconsistencies at least.[/quote]

    The hired reaper thing made some sense to me – will try to explain. Most angels have not interacted with humans and it was established at the start of the season that they’ve lost their ability to teleport. Given that Castiel is hidden from angels, Bart needed someone that could do some detective work. An angel wouldn’t have been very good at using the human skills necessary to track someone down so they needed someone that does interact with people more regularly, such as a rogue reaper.

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22. [quote]
    What annoyed me in this episode was something that wasn’t said. In 9.01, Castiel knew that Sam was dying in the hospital and that Dean had asked Zeke to try to help him. Are you telling me that in the drive back to the bat cave this didn’t come up once? Castiel never questioned why and how Sam was doing so much better? In 8.19 Goodbye Stranger, Castiel said that Sam was damaged in ways that even he couldn’t heal. If Castiel couldn’t heal him, how is Zeke able to heal him? Is it because he’s possessing Sam and healing him slowly from the inside? It just seemed a little sloppy to me that they haven’t addressed this.[/quote]

    What I don’t understand is why Cas didn’t call Dean and asked him to pick him up, since he was in trouble. Or just call to ask about Sam!

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23. [quote]…..Why Zeke told Dean that Cas had to go makes me very nervous as to his motivation. And he basically threatened to leave Sam & Dean in the lurch if Dean didn’t tell Cas to go, just like a petulant child. I don’t believe him for one second when he says that Cas being in the bunker is dangerous for all three, more like Cas will be able to see his true nature.[/quote]

    Sylvie – it made a lot of sense to me – self preservation. Zeke is injured, and is trying to heal himself and Sam. He wouldn’t survive a fight with another angel or angels. Everyone is out gunning for Castiel right now. Every time Sam “Zeke’s out”, I would think he can be found on angel radar. IMO it was harsh but necessary.

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24. I didn’t hate the episode. But just like all of these ep’s written by these two I think you have to cherry pick the parts that you liked (very few I know) disregard the ridiculous parts and hope the next writers can clean up the mess. I think that may be why we get what sounds like a fun one next week. It helps us heal.

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25. [quote][quote]…..Why Zeke told Dean that Cas had to go makes me very nervous as to his motivation. And he basically threatened to leave Sam & Dean in the lurch if Dean didn’t tell Cas to go, just like a petulant child. I don’t believe him for one second when he says that Cas being in the bunker is dangerous for all three, more like Cas will be able to see his true nature.[/quote]

    Sylvie – it made a lot of sense to me – self preservation. Zeke is injured, and is trying to heal himself and Sam. He wouldn’t survive a fight with another angel or angels. Everyone is out gunning for Castiel right now. Every time Sam “Zeke’s out”, I would think he can be found on angel radar. IMO it was harsh but necessary.[/quote]

    See I get that to that angels are gunning for Cass but Cass didn’t seem to notice that inside Sam is Zeke. Unless with cass around he can’t get close to Dean and gain more of Deans trust in him. I mean everyone in heaven must know that Dean and Cass are friends and way to get to Cass is through Dean. But I am still so confused on Zeke and what he is up to granted he is saving Sam got that. But the only thing that bugs me is that again here we have is Super Sam just angelized now. And takes away from some of the storylines and makes Dean a really bad liar because you know dean hates to lie about anything and here he is just getting a barrell full of them. I just wish we had the boys everyone cured no one lying and handle different threats but again its like nope we don’t get that. I will be glad when Zeke is out of Sam when and if he leaves Sam (speculating) wonder if Dean will feel some sort of alligence towards him for what he did saving Sam and such and what favor he will ask of Dean.

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26. [quote]…..

    See I get that to that angels are gunning for Cass but Cass didn’t seem to notice that inside Sam is Zeke. Unless with cass around he can’t get close to Dean and gain more of Deans trust in him. I mean everyone in heaven must know that Dean and Cass are friends and way to get to Cass is through Dean. But I am still so confused on Zeke and what he is up to granted he is saving Sam got that. But the only thing that bugs me is that again here we have is Super Sam just angelized now. And takes away from some of the storylines and makes Dean a really bad liar because you know dean hates to lie about anything and here he is just getting a barrell full of them. I just wish we had the boys everyone cured no one lying and handle different threats but again its like nope we don’t get that. I will be glad when Zeke is out of Sam when and if he leaves Sam (speculating) wonder if Dean will feel some sort of alligence towards him for what he did saving Sam and such and what favor he will ask of Dean.[/quote]

    I’m with you on Zeke’s intentions. At first I thought he was completely on the up and up, now some doubts are creeping in.

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27. [quote][quote]
    What annoyed me in this episode was something that wasn’t said. In 9.01, Castiel knew that Sam was dying in the hospital and that Dean had asked Zeke to try to help him. Are you telling me that in the drive back to the bat cave this didn’t come up once? Castiel never questioned why and how Sam was doing so much better? In 8.19 Goodbye Stranger, Castiel said that Sam was damaged in ways that even he couldn’t heal. If Castiel couldn’t heal him, how is Zeke able to heal him? Is it because he’s possessing Sam and healing him slowly from the inside? It just seemed a little sloppy to me that they haven’t addressed this.[/quote]

    What I don’t understand is why Cas didn’t call Dean and asked him to pick him up, since he was in trouble. Or just call to ask about Sam![/quote]

    Yep… one of many weird plot things in this episode.

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28. From what we’re given in the episode, we have to assume she was a reaper. Dean tells Ezekiel to look for a “reaper-for-rent” to find Castiel. Then, at the end, he says that Cas “gave it up to a reaper”. I had less trouble with the “TK toss” than I did the fact that it was apparently possessing April. (“Very sweet, didn’t mind me entering her one bit”) If they have bodies and can appear how they like, then why was that necessary? It feels to me like they originally wrote her to be an angel, then couldn’t figure out a way to make that work with the Enochian tatoo.

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29. I did like the episode, but like many of the Cas centered episodes, it always feels like the Cas parts are slow and too drawn out, while the brother’s are rushed. I don’t mind Cas centered, but has no one figured out how to make them exciting at all.
    But I loved the humor, I loved the Ezekiel parts. I was not thrilled with the smarmy angel leader or his followers…too Dick Roman-y and there is only one Dick Roman.

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30. [quote]
    My only objections are to the weak and lazy plotting. [/quote]

    THIS. I can barely make heads or tails of how they’re ‘evolving’ canon right now, and I suspect some stuff ended up on the cutting room floor, in the interest of time, that might’ve clarified some points. Ah, television!

    Acting was top-notch, though, as were all the visuals. Now, we’ve just gotta see some cleaner writing. Sometimes I think they try to squeeze in too much and consequently end up hand-waving stuff. Weakens the world they’re building, IMHO.

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31. [quote]Since when can reapers do a TK toss?[/quote]

    Where was it ever said that they couldn’t? Trashing canon would be if the show had already laid out what reapers can and cannot do, but it never did. The show left the mythology fairly vague, and thus susceptible to tweaking, like having telekinetic abilities and the ability to possess people.

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32. [quote]Trashing canon would be if the show had already laid out what reapers can and cannot do, but it never did. The show left the mythology fairly vague, and thus susceptible to tweaking, like having telekinetic abilities and the ability to possess people.[/quote]
    I agree with this. I don’t think that the show has really defined the reapers so I haven’t much problem with them playing with them. Having said that they are making them way too strong and pretty uncontrollable. And you can’t help wanting to know what Death feels about them, is he too cool and calm to get excited about what they do? Does he not know? How angry does killing them make him? Do the Winchesters really want to annoy Death?
    Questions, questions…

    Speaking of which, is there a question about whether April was a reaper or an angel? I admit I thought she was an angel and it was only when I came on here I saw reaper.

    Regarding Zeke, I think someone said that he knocked Sam out again so that Sam would wake up and not know what happened. My take on that was that Zeke poured backup healing energy into Castiel that he didn’t really have to spare and in the process weakened himself and was knocked out – then Sam got back control. But I need to see it again to decide.

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33. [quote]From what we’re given in the episode, we have to assume she was a reaper. Dean tells Ezekiel to look for a “reaper-for-rent” to find Castiel. Then, at the end, he says that Cas “gave it up to a reaper”. I had less trouble with the “TK toss” than I did the fact that it was apparently possessing April. (“Very sweet, didn’t mind me entering her one bit”) If they have bodies and can appear how they like, then why was that necessary? It feels to me like they originally wrote her to be an angel, then couldn’t figure out a way to make that work with the Enochian tatoo.[/quote]

    Thinking about it, the reaper mythology has always been kinda muddled. Tessa’s true form was spirit like, but then there are examples of reapers having physical bodies that can be interacted with (Tessa being possessed by Azazel and Alastair physically handling and killing a reaper).

    One way to look at it I guess is that she was doing a long con, and needed a place to gain Castiel’s trust, to lull him into a false sense of security to extract information. So the reaper went into her spirit form and took possession of a body.

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34. [quote]……My take on that was that Zeke poured backup healing energy into Castiel that he didn’t really have to spare and in the process weakened himself and was knocked out – then Sam got back control. But I need to see it again to decide.[/quote]

    I took it as Zeke having drained his batteries in healing Castiel, thereby weakening himself.

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35. I’m not really liking the Zeke possessing Sam storyine….once again its bending the charectors to plot instead of the charectors acting in an organic way.

    Sam has been turned into an inept hunter that is continusouly being knocked unconcious…beleiving lies a yr old see through.

    Not a fan of Castiel but even i know it would be more in charector for Cas to see himself as a danger and leave volunteerily. And he should be questioning Sam being aqlive just as Sam should be questioning Dean kicking Cas out of the bunker.

    Zeke is a lying lier who lies. he can bring Cas back from the dead…the DEAD…which is worse then dying…and yet can’t heal Sam. Zeke is displaying an aweful lot of power for a broken winged Angel who claims he’s wounded. Maybe he rippped up his own wings?

    I hope the storylien is going somewhere otgher then too have Dean feel guilty. I love Jared and dont begrudge him a meaty acting role…but I’d like to watch Sam and be sure that he is whom i;m watching.

    If fans are questioning if we are realy watching Sam (and not Zeke masterfullly portraying Sam- and playing Dean) then it begs the question….are the brother scenes real? can they be trusted?

    And what does it mean for the boys ‘bond’

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36. [quote][quote]Trashing canon would be if the show had already laid out what reapers can and cannot do, but it never did. The show left the mythology fairly vague, and thus susceptible to tweaking, like having telekinetic abilities and the ability to possess people.[/quote]
    I agree with this. I don’t think that the show has really defined the reapers so I haven’t much problem with them playing with them. Having said that they are making them way too strong and pretty uncontrollable. And you can’t help wanting to know what Death feels about them, is he too cool and calm to get excited about what they do? Does he not know? How angry does killing them make him? Do the Winchesters really want to annoy Death?
    Questions, questions…[/quote]

    I always figured Death really didn’t care too much about reapers “freelancing,” as long as they are still doing their jobs – taking souls when the time comes – the natural order is maintained.

    But it would be interesting if they brought him back in the back half of the season to address his feelings on it.

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37. I thought the episode was great. I love Cas centered episodes. I also, thought that April was an angel until I got on here and started reading the article. So I do what I do, and went to SuperWiki to settle the dispute within myself, she is in fact a rogue reaper. Because she had so much power, that was what led me to believe that she was an angel. But I will accept the new canon and just accept it as rogue reapers use their powers to their full extent while normal reapers just do their job, bringing the souls from earth to Heaven and Hell.

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38. I’m a little confused by this whole episode. The angels looking for Cas already have the Winchester connection and will still be using that angle to find Cas whether he’s at the bunker or not. So every time they are in the open someone could be tailing them. Since Cas is human now, why would he be any easier to track to the bunker then Sam and Dean? Wouldn’t he be warded in the same way?

    If Cas was in trouble why didn’t he call Dean again? He could have asked to use a phone at a shelter, church, pay phone? He did in ep.1. How about just to check in, see what was going on with Sam. Maybe Ezekiel. Wouldn’t Dean have normally had him check in regularly?

    Since when does Dean Winchester get an ultimatum to dump family and just say “okay”? How would Ezekiel be any safer either inside or outside Sam’s body on his own without the safety of the bunker if he’s concerned about angels finding him.

    What makes Dean think Sam isn’t strong enough to survive without Ezekiel? Angels have always recovered fairly quickly in SPN. Why isn’t Dean starting to question Ezekiel’s motives?

    Seems like a lot of inconsistencies for just a third episode. It feels like they threw Sam’s character under the bus with the not looking thing last year and this year it’s Dean’s turn.

    I usually like the one offs with Charlie but this time I really wanted some further intel on what’s going on with Ezekiel, Cas and Dean and I just don’t like the possession thing. It too slippery a slope and the longer it goes on the worse it’s going to get. IMHO

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39. Ok I reluctantly agree that April was probably a rogue reaper. So, even angels of death aka reapers need permission to possess someone so I assume they pretend to be “regular” angels when they ask permission. Where do reapers then fall in the hierarchy of angels? To me it’s like having your phd but presenting yourself as a medical doctor. Death is practical about his job but I think he would have a problem with them misrepresenting themselves.

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40. 😆 i think sam winchester summed it up best in regards to what i’m feeling about s9 so far: “yesterday was tuesday. But today is tuesday too.”…am i all alone or is anyone else suffering from a massive case of deja vu 😀
    this is how it was last season. we got a good solid eppy from carver which pretty much laid out the “here’s how it is”. the second eppy followed in carver’s footsteps. then we come to the third eppy and now most everyone is questioning everything from canon to motives. am i wrong or did this not happen last season? i’m telling you, i don’t know if these two writers are as inept as they seem to be, or they are simply doing what they are supposed to be doing. for me personally, the way i see it, zeke is being written in a similar way as benny was… vague and questionable, which if you ask me, is exactly what they’re going for. good or bad? friend or foe, only the writers know. of course there are moments where many are all questioning canon, or just trying to make sense of what we are seeing. that was pretty much all of the first half of season 8. i can’t tell you how many times i’ve thrown a theory out there regarding sam last year, mostly about why it is that he knew how to do a reverse exorcism when he was supposedly not hunting for a year, or how he knew things (rtt) and when dean asked how he knew, sam would only give him a blank, “i don’t know” stare. i mean sam’s whole time with amelia was questioned because of the vagueness in the way the script was written. alot of us had no idea what the hell was going on and i feel like it’s happening all over again. carver is doing it to us again. raising questions and suspicions even when it’s very possible that there is nothing devious going on outside our own wild imaginations. it’s a trap he set for us last season and i got stuck in it. so this season, i promised myself not to get caught in carver’s delightfully evil trap. i’m not going to theorize till my head spins off just to find out that i had more of an imagination than the writers had. i’m not going to worry about stuff til i have to. i’m not going to stress about things that might not even happen, but carver wants us to believe it might. this time around, i’m just going with the flow. waiting it out and enjoying the ride. it takes too much energy to stress out, so i ain’t doin it. so take that carver, you evil genius :P…..did i mention that i am really loving this season…

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41. [quote][quote]Since when can reapers do a TK toss?[/quote]

    Where was it ever said that they couldn’t? Trashing canon would be if the show had already laid out what reapers can and cannot do, but it never did. The show left the mythology fairly vague, and thus susceptible to tweaking, like having telekinetic abilities and the ability to possess people.[/quote]

    The “TK toss” was Alice’s observation, not mine. Sorry, in my post it didn’t apear as a quote – I did something wrong.

    Actually, I don’t know what “TK toss” means! Can someone help me?

    I tend to agree with you, Mick, on the reaper lore.

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42. [quote][quote]Trashing canon would be if the show had already laid out what reapers can and cannot do, but it never did. The show left the mythology fairly vague, and thus susceptible to tweaking, like having telekinetic abilities and the ability to possess people.[/quote]
    I agree with this. I don’t think that the show has really defined the reapers so I haven’t much problem with them playing with them. Having said that they are making them way too strong and pretty uncontrollable. And you can’t help wanting to know what Death feels about them, is he too cool and calm to get excited about what they do? Does he not know? How angry does killing them make him? Do the Winchesters really want to annoy Death?
    Questions, questions…

    Speaking of which, is there a question about whether April was a reaper or an angel? I admit I thought she was an angel and it was only when I came on here I saw reaper.

    Regarding Zeke, I think someone said that he knocked Sam out again so that Sam would wake up and not know what happened. My take on that was that Zeke poured backup healing energy into Castiel that he didn’t really have to spare and in the process weakened himself and was knocked out – then Sam got back control. But I need to see it again to decide.[/quote]

    I agree with you on the reaper lore. And I love what nappi815 said (#14) about reapers also being angels – only different, angels of death, working for Death. That would explain their power to heal and to ressurect people – things a demon can’t do, thus, the need to use a reaper.

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43. [quote][quote]……My take on that was that Zeke poured backup healing energy into Castiel that he didn’t really have to spare and in the process weakened himself and was knocked out – then Sam got back control. But I need to see it again to decide.[/quote]

    I took it as Zeke having drained his batteries in healing Castiel, thereby weakening himself.[/quote]

    I freeked for a second in this moment because I though Sam dropped dead because Zeke drained his batteries in Cas!

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44. I too thought that Zeke just blew his wad on Cas and lost conciousness. Sam, having never been unconcious, just took ove r when Zeke fell out, Whatever energy he’d built up, he probably expended a lot of it to heal Cas. It did take a moment to heal castoo. it wasn’t instantaneous ,the way it happens when an Angel is at full power.

    there’s also the possiblitiy that Zeke is just a more poweful Angel then Cas, when he’s on full. Cas said he couldn’t heal sam but then Cas alredy had a host and Zeke is healing Sam from the inside.

    But you’re right. Zeke is getting a little too comfortable in a vessel that was specifically created to house an Archangel.

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45. 😮
    IF ALICE HAS COME OUT THE WOODWORK, GUESS I AM GLAD I FELL ASLEEP. smh oh well SPNfamily will try again next week. I AM A RIDE OR DIE SPNer.
    if anyone knows of an ELEMENTARYsite like this please DO TELL. 😉

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46. [quote]…. And I love what nappi815 said (#14) about reapers also being angels – only different, angels of death, working for Death. That would explain their power to heal and to ressurect people – things a demon can’t do, thus, the need to use a reaper.[/quote]

    I don’t think reapers can be angels; remember that Tessa was possessed by YED in 2.01; angels can’t be possessed by demons. Also, when Alastair was trapping reapers (including Tessa) in 4.15 Death Takes a Holiday, that building was warded against angels.

    I think reapers are a different type of creature entirely; the show hasn’t really filled in a lot of the blanks yet.

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47. [quote]…this time around, i’m just going with the flow. waiting it out and enjoying the ride. it takes too much energy to stress out, so i ain’t doin it. so take that carver, you evil genius :P…..[/quote]

    I’m with you there, nappi. This episode won’t ever be anywhere near my favourites list, but given that I was expecting chaos from these writers, I was pleasantly surprised.
    Yes, I have issues with it, (too many to list) and yes, certain things drove me crazy (ditto above), but all in all, it was better than I’d feared, and I’m okay with waiting to see where they’re heading this year.

    I spent WAY too much time thinking and hoping for “something else” last season, and it ruined the fun of the show for me. This season, I like what I like, acknowledge what I don’t, and keep right on watching.
    I’m here for the ride, and so far, I’m enjoying it more than last year. Hoping next week is a fun one!

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48. I just watched the episode again and I will have to say I liked better than the first time. I guess I don’t have the same reaper issues as some. The only part that really bothered me was that April seemed to find Castiel without too much trouble. It was a little too convenient even with her elaborate explanation. Also I was a little puzzled as to why she needed information from Cas. The cliffhanger at the end will hopefully get explained. I’m with nappi and st50 I’m here for the ride. After having watched the racist truck this a.m. I guess I just have to look for the little moments in each episode that I do enjoy.

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49. Hmm, from Alice’s review, and the few comments I’ve read, I think I had different reaction to this episode than most. I know no one who watches SPN, nor do I go online for live tweeting, etc., so it’s always interesting to see what others think on this site. It often changes my perspective about an episode. I actually really liked last night’s episode – shocking, since I normally hate this writing combo’s work – and am surprised to read some of the comments.

    Things definitely moved slowly, but not always in a bad way, particularly regarding Cas. The measured rollout of Cas’ journey was really well done, mostly because of Misha’s skills with his character. I am not a Castiel/Misha fanatic, but I am a fan, and I really enjoyed the gentle way he’s taking this being human thing. I loved the interactions between him and the “reaper” although I knew she was not kosher when she kissed the dirty, bleeding, strange homeless man. I know he’s a hottie, but please. She’s was so clearly evil. Dean shoulda taught Cas about that. If it’s too easy, it’s gotta go wrong. (See Amazon woman in Season 7).

    Zeke and Dean – man, those scenes ROCK. I think it’s this new perspective on Sam and Dean’s relationship that I’m digging. Jared is just knocking it out of the park. It’s fascinating to me how Jensen and Jared pivot their chemistry so effortlessly. Dean is so visibly uncomfortable with Zeke, and Zeke is so stiff. It really makes you appreciate having actors as familiar with the characters as they are, and of course, as talented.

    I thought the last 10 minutes of the episode were like the Supernatural of old – tender, hopefully, heartbreaking, and, in the end, painful. Dean sees Cas die, and while we all knew Zeke was going to emerge and bring him back, Jensen did a great job of portraying anger, sorrow, regret and hope that Zeke would stop up – you could almost feel the wheels turning in Dean’s head about whether he should call for him, whether he would come to help of his own volition, etc. And once he’s saved him, and Cas is safe and happy, Dean’s has his “Sophie’s choice” moment: Sam’s life or Cas’? I think he made the only choice he could – we know what he’s gone through to heal Sam, and now Sam is happy, healthy (he thinks), and seems to be back to the man we saw in Season 3 before the demon blood, Lilith, Ruby, etc., so of course he’s going to choose Sam. But how I ached for Cas – tired and scared and alone, and now losing his only real family again. I thought it was very poignant and Misha and Jensen did a fabulous job with the last scene – so much said with so few words. Cas content and at peace, telling Dean what he means to him. Dean blanching, guilty, heartbroken, desperate. Powerful. Wrenching. Awesome.

    One of the things I’m enjoying this year is the way they are articulating what’s going on – they’re letting us in on (most) things. Last year it felt very much like the characters backgrounds, motivations, etc. were kept secret. The idea that Season 8 was about “perception” got overplayed and was exhausting as a viewer. This year, we’re getting things spelled out – even if we don’t like them. Sam is at peace with dying/letting go, if Dean doesn’t have any plan on how to fight. Dean admitting what Sam means to him (albeit in some sort of Dean/Zeke form). Sam immediately agreeing to go on when Dean arrives with a plan. Zeke telling Dean he did what he did for love. Cas telling Sam and Dean how much he admires them, and then basically summing up their entire existence in a few sentences. Dean telling Kevin that he’s family. Dean admitting, almost proudly “I lied. I do that.” LOL. I am impressed that with all this honesty, the show is maintaining its dramatic tension – and it’s not artificial, like it felt last year. Dean really is stuck – let Sam die (consigning himself to an empty, lonely, pointless life) or lie to him? Man when Sam learns what’s being going on, the fallout is going to be spectacular. And I can’t wait to see where it takes them.

    I am really concerned about “Samziel” going pear-shaped because Sam’s too happy, Dean’s lying too much, and Zeke’s too helpful. I want Zeke to be good – I love the idea of another angel ally, another good guy who has the Winchester’s back, but I’m sure that means he’s going to have some illicit agenda. Cas has been well out of the workings of Heaven, so it’s possible that he’s unaware of Zeke’s role in something nefarious.

    So, basically, I’m really loving this season.

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50. I agree with nappi and st50. I’m gonna have fun with it. Plus, I guess I’m the only SPN fan to not have a problem with Taxi Driver at all. I surrender to “there are no more rules”.

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51. [quote]I agree with nappi and st50. I’m gonna have fun with it. Plus, I guess I’m the only SPN fan to not have a problem with Taxi Driver at all. I surrender to “there are no more rules”.[/quote]
    not the only one. I liked taxi driver alot actually…lol

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52. Well, the episode wasn’t any better than I expected from these two writers. While I left once again having no issues with either character, I do have serious issues with the reaper mythology being screwed up again.

    In Faith, Dean specifically says that reapers can only be seen by those dying. These two writers changed that in Taxi Driver, making one of them a rogue corporeal and eating a pizza. Now they have expanded that to a whole gaggle of rogue reapers, corporeal by possessing human bodies (don’t know if they need consent). That pretty much tells me Death’s character has been voted off the island and I see no reason to have Julian Richings come back. I liked Julian’s Death character, but if he has no control over his reapers, then he might as well go on drink pina coladas with God.

    Apparently, unlike angels and demons, reapers cannot leave the human vessel at will, to escape Dean’s torture, for instance.

    In Death Takes a Holiday, Alistair says “the moon is right” and he got Death’s scythe to kill the two reapers needed to break a seal. As it turns out, no certain moon or Death’s scythe is needed. An angel blade now has the role of the Colt.

    I actually at first thought April was an angel, too, the way it was written. Now I’m thinking these two writers got their angel mythology mixed up with reaper mythology, just like they got their demon mythology mixed up with reaper mythology in Taxi Driver. That’s only my guess.

    My point is that when canon gets corrupted or convoluted, and especially when that screw-up involves the main MotW for the entire season (the angels), it affects my enjoyment of the episode and the mytharc for the season, because I don’t know what’s coming next. I can’t depend on truth in the story or the storytelling.

    Theory 1: I think it’s too early to say Zeke is shady. Benny appeared that way at this stage last year. I do expect Zeke to go the way of Benny though. Too bad, as far as this viewer is concerned. I like the questions the character causes me to think about.

    Theory 2: I don’t think the vessel thing is going to be AbbaBart. The strongest vessel on the planet is Dean Winchester, but it’s more likely than not that the vessel story is nothing more than a red herring and will be dropped.

    Theory 3: No doubt. Cas is a third lead now.

    Theory 4: My vote is that Detroit is not important.
    Personal Side Note: I don’t get the angel story either. Why aren’t the angels after Metatron, who caused the whole mess? Why are the bad angels so consumed with getting revenge on Cas, who they think was Metatron’s sidekick? Why aren’t the angels trying to re-open Heaven; you know, figure out the spell Metatron used? It would seem that they should be aligned with Dean, not out for revenge on Cas. At least Abbaddon’s plan makes sense.

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53. [quote][quote]…. And I love what nappi815 said (#14) about reapers also being angels – only different, angels of death, working for Death. That would explain their power to heal and to ressurect people – things a demon can’t do, thus, the need to use a reaper.[/quote]

    I don’t think reapers can be angels; remember that Tessa was possessed by YED in 2.01; angels can’t be possessed by demons. Also, when Alastair was trapping reapers (including Tessa) in 4.15 Death Takes a Holiday, that building was warded against angels.

    I think reapers are a different type of creature entirely; the show hasn’t really filled in a lot of the blanks yet.[/quote]

    You’re right. My mistake.

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54. The problem with the idea that this is just a expansion of reaper lore instead of just messing up canon is that the new lore was never established. Even with a line. The just said they were rogue. Do bad reapers sudden have different mythology? Rogue doesn’t explain why they can be seen, for instance. They never said whether all reapers can be seen if they want but only these rogue ones choose to. But if they choose to, why? And if they can appear at will. They should be able to disappear or even take their true form and escape at will as well. So why didn’t they? And why deliberately be seen when tracking 2 hunters? It’s idiotic. Being invisible is a much smarter way to go. So why risk it if you can choose when you are seen.

    In fact why go “rogue” at all. What do they want what is there motivation. Money. Power. They don’t typically die so what are they risking death for? We have no clue because the only explanation is ROGUE. Like that covers everything. We’ve seen reapers since S1 and they were involved in pivotal stories on at least 4 others occasions. It seemed in their nature to reap the dead. The thought of not doing was offensive to them. So why are the rogue reapers suddenly everywhere. What caused all the discontentment? It’s unlikely the apocalypse because they don’t to seem to care whether people die or not just what happens to them after. With a creature with such well established lore than an explanation of the differences is necessary.

    To me it reminds of shows like Charmed whenever they pulled crap like this. That is not a compliment. It how tv got such a bad reputation in first place. Established canon is conveniently flexible. You need to have ninja fighting skills. Well guess what you been taking classes secretly for years. So you need to get back into Purgatory and Hell, Abracadabra! there are rogue reapers. And everybody seems to know about them now even though Crowley (the king of Hell) and Castiel an angel spent are of season six looking for a way into Purgatory.

    Plus it’s not just bad writing it reduces tension. There’s nothing to push or fight against. And not nearly so impressive when the characters wins. There’s no “OH MY GOD HOW ARE THEY GO TO GET OUT OF THIS ONE.” It more like “OH MY GOD. SO HE CAN JUST FLY NOW. GREAT. Whatever.” It’s just to convenient and feels like they’re jumping the shark. It takes you out of the moment. The world stops feeling real.

    So there my rant about that.

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55. OMG Kelly, you hit the nail on the head girl!!! I couldn’t agree with you more about the “rogue reapers.” It’s not an expansion of canon if the new information makes no sense, is needlessly contradictory, and seems convoluted and contrived. This is not an expansion, it is a break of canon IMO. Kelly summed it up perfectly as to why Taxi Driver and now I’m No Angel have failed when it comes to canon on the subject of reapers. And for those who have said that its established that Reapers can heal… no it isn’t and they can’t. In Faith, it was clear that the reaper (who was less of an actual person and more of a creature) was taking life force from one person and transferring it to another, and was not in fact healing anyone. This was being done against the reaper’s will to boot. And in IMTOD Tessa did not heal Dean, he was healed by the completion of John and Azazel’s demon deal; as a matter of fact, Tessa seemed quite upset and surprised by the whole thing. Now we have reapers who can seemingly take a vessel when they need one with no explanation or set up as we saw with April, but can’t seem to get rid of that vessel when they need to as we saw with the Guido Reaper Sam and Dean were torturing, all of which makes ZERO SENSE to me. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. They now seemingly can TK toss people around, take on and fight an angel, possess and use angel blades, die with white light pouring out of their eyes and mouth, take vessels, and can be seen at will, all without set up or explanation.
    😡 . Me no likey.

    Another thing that bothered me about the episode was in the entire characterization of April (I actually really liked the actress herself BTW). If she was a reaper and not an angel, then why did she take it upon herself to grill Cas for info on Metatron in the first place? Wasn’t the reaper’s mission only to locate Cas and turn him over to Bartholomew? They are paid servants basically, bounty hunter’s working for profit. So why did she seem to take what Cas had done in heaven so personally, why was she so angry and accusatory? If she’s only a reaper, and functioning outside the angel sphere and trying to fulfill a contract to get paid then why should she care what Cas did or why? Why kill him? The character’s entire POV was never established which made her actions in this episode very confusing. Another poster mentioned (I am sorry, I forgot who 😳 ) that maybe April was written as an angel originally and then the writers suddenly realized that she couldn’t be an angel because they had warded Cas against angel detection and had to change her to a reaper at the last minute. Basically they wrote themselves into a corner, and took this lame way out to fix it. This makes more sense to me than the the actual story did. Why couldn’t April have been an angel who happened upon Cas accidentally the way Hael did? But it was stated categorically at the end of the episode by Dean that she was a reaper. She certainly didn’t behave much like a reaper, but she behaved an awful lot like a pissed off angel. Carver must cringe every time this duo’s scripts cross his desk.

    Despite all my griping about the reapers, I didn’t think the eppie was all bad (which I’ll take as a win for this writing team); I am totally loving the whole Samzekiel thing; yes it’s beyond dodgy with all the questionable consent issues and Dean’s lies, but this part of the story seems very well balanced to me, has been decently explained and well executed so far and I am totally digging it, watching Sam grow confused and Dean flounder and dig himself in deeper. Jared switching back and forth was particularly creepy in this episode. There are so many ways that they could go with this, and I am eager to find out where they take it. The very fact that it is so questionable is why I like it. I like moral ambiguity, particularly when the Winchesters are forced to struggle with it themselves. How far is too far to go for someone you love? About Ezekiel and his motivations; I was originally feeling that he was on the up and up, and he may still not have completely nefarious motivations, but I think that there is something going on that he hasn’t told Dean about that is motivating his inhabiting of Sam. At the start of the episode Ezekiel said to Dean, “You see? I can be useful.” Hmm… why did Zeke feel compelled to point that fact out? Then I noticed that Zeke took great care to not appear as Zeke in front of Cas. He healed Cas, but made sure it was only Sam that Cas saw and interacted with. Zeke seemed pretty eager to get Cas out of the bunker as well; why? because he’s not Zeke at all? I am becoming more suspicious of him and am worried that Dean is being played. Poor Dean.

    So, all and all, there were some things that irritated and some things I liked, so not a total loss. I did need to watch the episode twice though because I found much of it confusing the first time.

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56. the way i always understood it and i could be wrong..but here’s how i saw it.
    reapers can only be seen by the dying. that’s been pretty much established early on. now, in the eppy imtod, we all saw tessa’s true reaper form and it freaked dean out, so tessa took the form of a pretty girl. so, by what tessa has explained, a reaper can take the form a human and can even create their own little sandboxes. now in death takes a holiday, the only reason sam and dean were able to see tessa at all was because they were technically dead. alistair can see tessa because he’s a demon. cas could see the reapers in abandon all hope. so angels and demons can see reapers. alistair’s ability to kill a reaper had to do with a spell and a special weapon and a certain time. it was all very complicated but doable. so seemingly, reapers can in fact die. so crowley’s ability to see ajay makes sense. but i did sort of wonder how sam and dean were able to see ajay. then i just figured that the definition of rogue didn’t just stop with reapers reaping souls on the side in addition to souls they’re supposed to reap. i thought that the definition of rogue also meant that these reapers don’t follow the normal reaper rules, which is simply collecting souls, not being seen by anyone but those they are reaping. . these rogue reapers take on a human form, much like tessa did, but they allow themselves to be seen by humans, they interact with the human world instead of keeping to the netherworld like they should be. so in essence, these reapers are rogue, because they don’t follow the rules and they go off on their own…kind of like mercenaries do.
    this seems reasonable to me, so that’s my belief on the matter, but i get it. i shouldn’t have to come up with my own explanation, it should be given to us. the writers should have at least put in an explainer regarding rogues and why and how they do what they do. maybe these writers need to watch hollywood babylon 😆

    still this stuff doesn’t really bother me that much. it’s when they mess with sam and dean canon that i take notice. like it didn’t bother me that much, but i don’t know if you noticed, but when sam mentioned that something had gone down in lafayette, dean kind of explained to him that it was indiana, as if sam didn’t know that…which i find hard to swallow since sam ran off to lafayette, indiana in hunted. see that was small so i didn’t let it bother me, but it’s sam and dean stuff…that i notice more than the other stuff. i don’t really let the other stuff bother me so much. hell sometimes i don’t even notice it. 😀

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57. 😆

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58. Hi nappi, your reaper logic is pretty sound I think, but I still have two problems: 1. None of this has been explained to us on screen in any way that helps me to accept what we are being shown now. If you are going to deviate from established canon to this extent, then there needs to be some kind of on screen explanation. Instead all of these significant changes have been heaped on the audience as though we ought to already know about them, but they’ve never been properly explained. We shouldn’t have to piece something like this together on our own to get it to make sense, IMO anyway. 2. If a reaper can now take on a vessel that can be seen by the average alive person at will as seen with April and sleazoid reaper, why can’t the reaper then bug out of that vessel also at will? It makes no sense that a reaper would take a vessel and then just hang around in it to be tortured and killed. Angels and demons both can vacate their vessels at will, so why can’t reapers? Once they take on a visible vessel they are stuck with it forever? Again contradictory, nonsensical info that is unexplained. And for me It still doesn’t explain Aprils characterization; if she really is just a reaper then why does she care about Cas, Heaven or Metatron at all? I mean wouldn’t she just want to get paid? When her job to catch Cas was threatened it would have made more sense for her to bug out of her meat suit and try again later, but she fought (like an angel) which goes against logic for the construct of her character. To me the inconsistencies here feel like errors, not evolution in canon.

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59. Yes, E! I agree with every word! Especially since you were agreeing with me 😀

    I just don’t know about these two writers. On the one hand they’ve written some really good, poignant emotional scenes but at other moments there writing looks like something from a Scooby Doo episode. So I can’t figure out if they just shouldn’t be writing in this nitpicky genre or at least on this nitpicky show. Or if they are just bad writers who has gotten lucky that the people around have been able to raise them up at points. With amazing actors or editing the dialogue or what ever.

    Also, so the reaper took that girl as a vessel, right? It just wasn’t her projecting the look of some random girl? So if that was the case. They had Castiel have non-consensual sex with that poor girl. So that’s disturbing. He didn’t know obviously so it isn’t his fault but still very disturbing. I mean when Sam had sex with Ruby it was this whole huge thing and the girl had “left the building”. Jimmy was trapped inside Castiel’s body so wouldn’t this girl be too.

    And a gripe for the show in generally. The haven’t mentioned on the show what became of Jimmy. Even though Jim Michaels I think tweeted he was long gone.

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60. I don’t think it took a vessel…i think reapers can appear in human form,as Tessa had done. Her true form was that hideous looking old hag looking entity which if I remember correctly had a white light aura. That’s why I think when dean stabbed reaper light came from its eyes…see I think they don’t give specific definition to rogue reaper because they keep tweaking them..i do agree that we as an audience should get explanations regarding new canon instead of us trying to solve the mystery ourselves..

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61. [quote]Well, the episode wasn’t any better than I expected from these two writers. While I left once again having no issues with either character, I do have serious issues with the reaper mythology being screwed up again.

    In Faith, Dean specifically says that reapers can only be seen by those dying. These two writers changed that in Taxi Driver, making one of them a rogue corporeal and eating a pizza. Now they have expanded that to a whole gaggle of rogue reapers, corporeal by possessing human bodies (don’t know if they need consent). That pretty much tells me Death’s character has been voted off the island and I see no reason to have Julian Richings come back. I liked Julian’s Death character, but if he has no control over his reapers, then he might as well go on drink pina coladas with God.[/quote]

    Well, the Faith thing about seeing reapers before you die was basically dropped from canon too, as well as the look. You never know, they might have Death back at some point to address the issue of rogue reapers.

    [quote]
    In Death Takes a Holiday, Alistair says “the moon is right” and he got Death’s scythe to kill the two reapers needed to break a seal. As it turns out, no certain moon or Death’s scythe is needed. An angel blade now has the role of the Colt.[/quote]

    No, that was specifically to break that certain seal, killing two reapers on a solstice moon, Death’s scythe was just the tool he used. And if you want to talk canon trashing, that’s a glaring example of retconning from the Kripke years, since Alastair says he got it from an “old friend,” and was “jonesin'” for the Apocalypse. But once we actually meet Death, it’s obvious he would never give his scythe to a demon, or that he even cares about the Apocalypse.

    People act like the Kripke years were so perfect, but in actuality her did quite a bit of mythology tweaking as he went along.

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62. I’d already heard from the Comicon that Cas doesn’t end up staying at the bunker because it’s too dangerous so although I knew it was coming didn’t mean it was any less heartbreaking, especially since I had no idea it would be Zeke’s idea nor that he would lay down that horrible ultimatum over Dean’s head. Now Dean’s had to lie to the two people he’s closest to in order to keep the secret and forced to kick one of those people out to fend for himself. Not only that but he’s lying to the two people he’s held most accountable when they’ve lied to him in the past and it’s gotta be killing him.

    The reaper issue … meh, I’m willing to just chalk it down to info we didn’t know before and move on. It wasn’t the cleverest thing the writers could have done, I mean, since the first reaper was following the boys and April just happened upon Cas they could have just been angels since the reapers weren’t able to magically find him either. But I’m not going to lose sleep over it.

    Not my favorite episode overall but had some really good and some really heartbreaking moments so it gets a pass. I’m just interested to see what’s going to happen when Sam and Cas find out what’s been going on with Zeke … that should be an angsty episode or two. Break out the tissue box for those!

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63. [quote]
    Why can’t Cass stay at the bunker again? I didn’t get that whole thing about warding tattoos not working once he died. [/quote]

    My take on this was that the warding tattoo *is* still working, but Ezekiel is saying that it’s not enough to protect Cass from being found and killed despite the warding.
    But he still didn’t give a good enough reason IMO. It’s a freaking bunker, how much safer can they get?? Poor Cass!

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64. Okay, I’ll just say one thing. Jared/Sam is rocking the pink shirt he wore. I mean, Pink looks awesome on him. I remember a fan once asked if Jared would wear pink. Jared said he wasn’t sure if he could pull it off then of course Jensen said “‘Course you do!”
    So, I guess Jensen’s right after all. Jared could really pull it off, beautifully.

    Okay, now that the gushing is done. I have a theory.
    I think Ezekiel is a runaway. He’s hiding inside Sam’s body. That’s why he seems so spooked when he knows that Castiel stays in the bunker. If Cas is out there running, the other Angels will chase Cas instead of Zeke. So, he uses Cas a diversion. He’s probably from one of the faction of angels who has his own agenda.

    The easiest way to find a way back to Heaven is to get close to the Winchester because Kevin and the Angel Tablet is with them. Since Cas is now useless, he uses Cas as a diversion so that the other Angels’ attention is full on chasing Castiel.

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65. [quote][quote][quote]Since when can reapers do a TK toss?[/quote]

    Where was it ever said that they couldn’t? Trashing canon would be if the show had already laid out what reapers can and cannot do, but it never did. The show left the mythology fairly vague, and thus susceptible to tweaking, like having telekinetic abilities and the ability to possess people.[/quote]

    The “TK toss” was Alice’s observation, not mine. Sorry, in my post it didn’t apear as a quote – I did something wrong.

    Actually, I don’t know what “TK toss” means! Can someone help me?

    I tend to agree with you, Mick, on the reaper lore.[/quote]

    Ale, TK Toss means Telekinetic toss. Flinging the Winchesters onto wall without touching them considers as one. Also when Sam flung Alistair onto a stone head was also a TK Toss, thanks to demon blood.

    Hope it helps

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66. [quote]

    Theory 4: My vote is that Detroit is not important.
    Personal Side Note: I don’t get the angel story either. Why aren’t the angels after Metatron, who caused the whole mess? Why are the bad angels so consumed with getting revenge on Cas, who they think was Metatron’s sidekick? Why aren’t the angels trying to re-open Heaven; you know, figure out the spell Metatron used? It would seem that they should be aligned with Dean, not out for revenge on Cas. At least Abbaddon’s plan makes sense.[/quote]

    Hi Ginger, please allow me to offer my answer. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    If I put my self on Bart’s and the other Angels shoes it’ll be like this. The only faction who knows about the Angel tablet is Naomi’s faction. Heavens are in chaos and divided by factions and each of them have their own agenda. I’m sure Naomi will keep the tablet business secret from any faction so that she can be the strongest and maybe rule heaven.

    I’m still not sure if the other angels know about the existence of the Angel tablet. I’m guessing they don’t. They only knows that Metatron works with Castiel to banish them all on earth. Yet, they don’t know how Metatron do that. Since Metatron is locked up in heaven, the only one who they can ask is Cas. They of course have heard about Cas’ alliance with SamandDean. Who haven’t? Afterall, like Sam said, they’re the Winchesters. All angels have heard of them and how Cas was known to help them in the past. But I bet they don’t know about the existence of the Angel tablet and they don’t know that SamandDeam have it.

    But Zeke knows, because he’s inside Sam. So the only way for him to be able to return to heaven is by staying close with the Winchesters. He knows that SamandDean are the key to open heaven so he send Cas out as a diversion, to deflect the other angels attention away from the Winchesters.

    If The angels attack the bunker or even knows that Cas is with them, the safety of the tablet will be in jeopardy. It’ll be difficult for Zeke to convince SamandDean to send him home. At least that’s my theory. 😀

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67. [quote]Since when does Dean Winchester get an ultimatum to dump family and just say “okay”? How would Ezekiel be any safer either inside or outside Sam’s body on his own without the safety of the bunker if he’s concerned about angels finding him.[/quote]

    I guess since it’s Sam on the line. We all know that these two are very co-dependence. And Dean’s speech in Sacrifice. “There’s no one, past or present that i will put in front of you.”
    I think Dean is pretty much consistent on that front. He already made a promise to make Sam his first and foremost priority. SO, there’ll be no Cas, no Benny, no one will stand in front of Sam. If he has to choose, then Cas has to go.

    I know it’s not fair. For Castiel’s fan too. I don’t like it too but I can understand Dean’s character. I get suspicious on Zeke though.

    ANd I can understand Cas’s character too. Angels are all inherently arrogant right? Because they’re powerful and they never suffer. Cas is arrogant in S6 when he didn’t ask Dean for help, opting to make deal with Crowley, thinking that he can handle it. Angels are not used to ask help from human. They are getting prayed for help not the other way around. That’s why there’s a scene in that church with the praying woman. Humans ask for help to the higher beings but Angels do orders. They don’t ask for help, they help humans when God allows.

    I hope it helps 😀

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68. hey kaj, i just wanted to let you know that i share the same theory 😀 . i’m not one in the camp that thinks zeke wants to keep sam’s vessel. i still don’t think he can due to carver’s new angel addendum about a vessel being able to eject an angel if they reject them. i don’t think zeke is bad, but i do think as he stated he’s pro cas and believes in his mission. that makes him vulnerable to the other angel faction, perhaps bart himself especially since he’s hurt. answering dean’s call was literally a gift for zeke. help from a winchester and that was before he knew what dean needed. healing sam and having a safe place to lay low until he’s back to full angel power is more than he could’ve asked for. and i’m sure he’ll ask for more when the time comes. being in sam winchester is like staying in a library. the knowledge is vast. all that zeke could learn from him. and i did mention too that the mol bunker is the mother lode of info as well as containing the most prized possession for an angel to have…the tablet and the prophet who can read it. cas said zeke was a good soldier, and if that’s the case, then a good soldier will do what it takes to get back into heaven including having the winchesters hand over the tablet and the prophet. if anyone is in danger at being at the bunker, my guess is it’s kevin. i know someone said they got suspicious of zeke when he told dean “see i can be useful”. but i don’t think that was meant to be anything sinister. i think zeke sees that dean is burdened by the lies he’s telling sam, he’s worried sick about his brother and zeke was simply just trying to lift some of that burden of him being in sam by showing dean that he can help. but then again, as i said, i’m not jumping to any conclusions this season…this time i’m waiting it out and enjoying the ride, yes i will be drinking my dr. pepper too. 😀

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69. you know cas really couldn’t stay in the bunker. first off the bunker is turning into a motel with quite a few guests. there would be no sam and dean privacy. second, misha as a regular gives jared and jensen time off. if cas is with them all the time, well there goes their needed days off. plus cas’s character would get boring. he’d have nothing to do. he certainly can’t take over the bobby role. cas on his own makes more sense, that’s how they’ve done it in the past when cas was a regular back in s4 or 5, one of those seasons. i just wish we had gotten to see what he said to cas….hope sam asks about it next week.

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70. Could Zeke actually be Metatron. He is an angel, maybe he got cast out too. He would have to get rid of Castiel because he might be recognized.

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71. Quoting nappi815 #60
    [quote]I don’t think it took a vessel…i think reapers can appear in human form,as Tessa had done. Her true form was that hideous looking old hag looking entity which if I remember correctly had a white light aura. That’s why I think when dean stabbed reaper light came from its eyes…see I think they don’t give specific definition to rogue reaper because they keep tweaking them..i do agree that we as an audience should get explanations regarding new canon instead of us trying to solve the mystery ourselves..[/quote]

    Hi nappi, Actually, my take on it was that Tessa DID take on the human form of that young girl dying in the hospital that Dean saw while he was walking around disconnected from his body. I think she even said that she used the girl to put Dean at ease and help him identify with someone who was in the same state he was in. And in April’s case she actually said in the scene with Castiel that she took on April as a meat suit and that April “didn’t mind one bit” when the reaper/angel/whatever entered her and took her over. It also explains where the apartment comes from unless rogue reapers are just renting apartments all over the place, which seems unlikely. So, I think April was a meat suit, and not a human form. This is what I am talking about with this writing team; very inconsistent and illogical writing that makes it harder for me to enjoy any good things I might like about one of their episodes because I spend so much time going “huh? wait…. how can that be…”

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72. What if Zeke isn’t Zeke though? What if he’s lying about who he is to get close to the Winchesters and their prophet and the tablet and Cas? We have no way of knowing this is Zeke at all really…..whatever angel that’s inside Sam could have picked any old name of any old angel and Dean would have been none the wiser. Cas vouched for Ezekiel, but is the angel in Sam the Ezekiel Cas knows and trusts? How would we know? We don’t even know for sure that it’s an angel inside Sam. I am suspicious now because he seemed so freaked out when he and Cas were in the same room together and seemed to take great care not to let Cas see him as Zeke, only as Sam. He seemed pretty keen to make sure he was not recognized by Cas, even going so far as to manipulate Dean into giving Cas the boot out of the bunker. Was that really about keeping the Winchesters safe or about keeping himself safe from Cas knowing about his presence?
    Hmmmm. 😀

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73. [quote]Could Zeke actually be Metatron. He is an angel, maybe he got cast out too. He would have to get rid of Castiel because he might be recognized.[/quote]

    What if Zeke is working FOR/WITH Metranon? Think about it. Sam was resonating which lead them to Metranon. Metranon loves stories but apparently never heard of the Winchesters…even though he’s probbably read every book ever written (Supernatural books?). Metranon casts out the Angels BUT the Winchesters STILL have the Angel tablet.

    Sam conveniently near death after stopping the trials – which Metranon would know – which means he should know Dean would doo something to save him. He does…he prays…giving an APB to metranon. He sends his cohort Zeke to offer to heal Sam…but on no!! He’s too weak to heal the normal way…so he needs to heal from the inside…..and Sam so utterly trusting of Dean says yes. Metranon knows Sams history with possession KNOWS Sam would hate this….KNOWS Dean needs to feel guilt like he needs to breath tells Dean Sam would eject him. The lie and the guilt is born.

    NAd Zeke is free to rummage around Sams brain and by extension THE MOL (Which Abaddon was so hot to find last year but seems to have forgotten about).

    What if Metranon wants to finsih the Trials and Close hell for ever? And Zeke the good soldier sees this as perfectly logical. And a good soldier will sacrifice himself for the greater good….Sam will simply finish what he started.

    And Sam will die as he lived – devoid of his free wiill. Everyone else deciding how he lives and dies.

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74. [quote][quote][quote][quote]Since when can reapers do a TK toss?[/quote]

    Where was it ever said that they couldn’t? Trashing canon would be if the show had already laid out what reapers can and cannot do, but it never did. The show left the mythology fairly vague, and thus susceptible to tweaking, like having telekinetic abilities and the ability to possess people.[/quote]

    The “TK toss” was Alice’s observation, not mine. Sorry, in my post it didn’t apear as a quote – I did something wrong.

    Actually, I don’t know what “TK toss” means! Can someone help me?

    I tend to agree with you, Mick, on the reaper lore.[/quote]

    Ale, TK Toss means Telekinetic toss. Flinging the Winchesters onto wall without touching them considers as one. Also when Sam flung Alistair onto a stone head was also a TK Toss, thanks to demon blood.

    Hope it helps[/quote]

    Ah! It did help, thank you! 🙂

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75. Ok, Ok, one more thing about the reapers and then I’ll shut up about it: why were the rogue reapers even needed anyway? I mean, the angels figured out that Cas was warded against them (although why he needed to bother is beyond me seeing as how he’s human and not actually detectable to angels in his human state). So, the angels couldn’t detect him, but neither can reapers, so what was using one of them supposed to do seeing as how they couldn’t locate him any faster than the angels could? Bartholomew had to tell that one sleazy reaper to go follow the Winchesters and more than likely they would lead the reaper directly to them. So why did they need to PAY a rogue reaper to do what any low level, lackey angel could have done for free on Bartholomew’s orders? There was no need to even bring the rogue reapers into it other than they are the weak invention of this particular writing team and they probably thought it would be “way cool” to use them. The one reaper, Sleazy, who was following the Winchester’s to find Castiel didn’t even manage to do so, and the other supposed reaper April (who was way too much like an angel to be believable as a reaper) found Castiel by accident. So, I ask again, WHAT WAS THE POINT OF INCLUDING THEM AND THEIR CONVOLUTED CANON AT ALL? Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler? OK, I’m done complaining (for now 😆 ).

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76. [quote]hey kaj, i just wanted to let you know that i share the same theory 😀 . i’m not one in the camp that thinks zeke wants to keep sam’s vessel. i still don’t think he can due to carver’s new angel addendum about a vessel being able to eject an angel if they reject them. i don’t think zeke is bad, but i do think as he stated he’s pro cas and believes in his mission. that makes him vulnerable to the other angel faction, perhaps bart himself especially since he’s hurt. answering dean’s call was literally a gift for zeke. help from a winchester and that was before he knew what dean needed. healing sam and having a safe place to lay low until he’s back to full angel power is more than he could’ve asked for. and i’m sure he’ll ask for more when the time comes. being in sam winchester is like staying in a library. the knowledge is vast. all that zeke could learn from him. and i did mention too that the mol bunker is the mother lode of info as well as containing the most prized possession for an angel to have…the tablet and the prophet who can read it. cas said zeke was a good soldier, and if that’s the case, then a good soldier will do what it takes to get back into heaven including having the winchesters hand over the tablet and the prophet. if anyone is in danger at being at the bunker, my guess is it’s kevin. i know someone said they got suspicious of zeke when he told dean “see i can be useful”. but i don’t think that was meant to be anything sinister. i think zeke sees that dean is burdened by the lies he’s telling sam, he’s worried sick about his brother and zeke was simply just trying to lift some of that burden of him being in sam by showing dean that he can help. but then again, as i said, i’m not jumping to any conclusions this season…this time i’m waiting it out and enjoying the ride, yes i will be drinking my dr. pepper too. :D[/quote]

    Hi nappi815

    I agree. At this point Zeke is thinking of his own safety. Since Cas is powerless right now, he thinks Cas won’t be of any help. The reason why Zeke seemed to suck up at Dean and tries very hard to please Dean is because Dean is the key of his survival right now. Dean is loaning Sam’s body to Zeke gaining Sam’s recovery as payment.
    If Sam knows, he will eject Zeke at anytime because if Sam could overpower Lucifer, he can eject Zeke easily.

    I think it hasn’t been clear that the consent given by the vessels is permanent or not because throughout history there has been no human can eject an angel inhabiting their body. No human strong enough to do that. EXCEPT SAM. So, for the angels it’s unheard of to be ejected from their vessels simply because the human vessels are basically a willing participant.

    Jimmy Novak said it was like being strapped to a comet. So the human’s soul/consciousness doesn’t really know outside world when their body is used as vessel. The presence of the angel is too vast so they sometimes just opted to remain unconscious. How can you even think of fighting a giant comet when you already feel intimidated from the start? Even if human can refuse the angel’s presence inside their body, it doesn’t mean that they can eject the angel. It needs lot’s of strength and power and probably Winchester’s stubbornness to be able to do that. And of course the angels will not advertise that fact to their would be vessels, right? Why give human a loophole? AS long as they’re willing, end of story. It’s just a small clause at the bottom of the paper, printed in tiny font that you’ll miss it if you blink. That’s just how manipulating angels are.

    But heaven knows and learn that Sam Winchester is strong enough to even overpower Lucifer, perhaps not enough to eject him but enough to jump into the cage. It makes sense if Zeke is afraid of being ejected. So, as long as Dean keep the charade, Zeke will be safe healing himself inside Sam’s body and heal Sam as a payment.

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77. I agree. At this point Zeke is thinking of his own safety. Since Cas is powerless right now, he thinks Cas won’t be of any help. The reason why Zeke seemed to suck up at Dean and tries very hard to please Dean is because Dean is the key of his survival right now. Dean is loaning Sam’s body to Zeke gaining Sam’s recovery as payment.
    If Sam knows, he will eject Zeke at anytime because if Sam could overpower Lucifer, he can eject Zeke easily.

    Does everyone here really think that little of SAm Winchester? That if Dean and Zeke was honest with Sam and told Sam the truth he would eject Zeke? That…he would leave one of the good angels twisting in the wind? Sam Winchester…the guy who originally had faith and beleived in Angels…The guy who has ALWAYS been the one to argue for giving people and supernatural creatures a chance when they desserved it. The one guy on this show who has NEVER held a grudge for longer then 5 minutes?

    Does anyone honestly beleive Sam wouldn’t listen? Wouldn’t empathise? And if allowed to make his own choice he would WANT to help Zeke? Its sad that Dean and CARVER as well as this fandom think so little of Sam.

    I can see Sam being thrown under the Impala. Cause Zeke is going to be Deans new best friend and when the writers have Dean choose SAm (out of guilt and childhood responsibility…not because of who Sam is) everyone gets to cry with Dean at having to loose Zeke. And Sam will be blamed once again for Dean loosing someone special too him.

    Frankly i think it would have been more honest writing if Sam had died an, Zeke assumed Sams identity while pretending to be Sam because thats what he thinks Dean wants.

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78. I think the episode itself answered the question of what Sam thinks about angel possession with his direct narrative calling the angels taking human vessels through the evangelical website “body snatching.”

    I also think Dean will always choose Sam over anybody else because [i]that is the show’s franchise[/i]. Even in this episode, Dean chose Sam over Cas and their ‘profound bond.” For me, the show has shown clearly the struggle Dean is going through because of the decisions made to save Sam’s life and we all know he will have to pay the consequences.

    I’m enjoying the questions this season has set up and the great potential the story has for the characters. I’m hoping that at the end of the season, we know who the real Sam Winchester is for a change. I haven’t known which Sam I would see from season to season since his destiny story ended, but this is the first time in a very long time that I haven’t been ticked off at Sam by this time in the season. I’m liking the Sam we’re seeing, and I hope he stays around.

    Miles vary, of course, but I am very happy to be able to like both brothers, and I hope the writers can follow through on what’s been set up so far.

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