Zap2It Interview: Jeremy Carver Takes on S8 Big Complaints
Okay, here you go. Let’s add some fuel to the fire, get the debate going right now. Carina MacKenzie at Zap2It took her queries to the open forum on Twitter, and then decided to asked Jeremy Carver the two overwhelming complaints that have been inundating the Supernatural fandom all season.
“Why was Dean shunned in the mytharc?” AND…wait for it… “Why didn’t Sam look for Dean?” Here are excerpts of the responses:
“I know exactly the debate you’re talking about,” he says. “I understand it, on one level — and this is as defensive as I’ll get, in this conversation, at least until you nail me with something else — I just hope the fans realize that we’re not leaving anybody on the sidelines.”
“I think first and foremost, it’s not put to bed yet,” Carver tells us. “It’s something that will be dealt with in one form or another again. It left an emotional mark on our fans, and I think it’s left an emotional mark on our brothers as well. That’s, I think, the point of it. I think the idea was two brothers that are maturing and changing, and may not always act or be the way that we would hope them to be. We as people are not as people hope we’d be, and just because we’re not what others hope we are doesn’t mean it’s wrong.”
“What has been put to bed, in many ways, is Sam’s rationale for why he did what he did,” Carver confirms. “He’s stated his reasons, and that’s why he did it. That said, it’s still an open wound of sorts. We’ll see that dealt with in ways that we aren’t quite expecting.”
Anyway, read the whole interview here (it has other great bits as well). I do admire Mr. Carver for standing his ground, even though this will still make the most vocal of fans very upset.

Alice Jester is the founder, editor-in-chief, head writer, programmer, web designer, site administrator, marketer, and moderator for The Winchester Family Business. She is a 30 year IT applications and database expert with a penchant for creative and freelance writing in her spare (ha!!) time. That’s on top of being a wife, mother of two active kids, and four loving (aka needy) pets.
Jeremy Carver’s words make such great sense to me. Though as much as I would have wanted Sam to search for Dean his reasoning, his grief and his trying for hope are so real and so Sam as I have come to know him. And so understandable. The work I do in everyday life is all about grief and regrets and complex relationships. And learning to grow in them, even when someone is not quite as we hoped. It is quite amazing to watch such a relationship on my favourite show. As well as experiencing my own relationship with my favourite brothers.
[quote][quote][H]is reasoning, his grief and his trying for hope are so real and so Sam as I have come to know him. And so understandable. …[E]veryday life is all about grief and regrets and complex relationships. And learning to grow in them, even when someone is not quite as we hoped. It is quite amazing to watch such a relationship on my favourite show.[/quote]
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Yes – JoRuth. THIS. I agree wholeheartedly. Well-said.
[i][T]he idea was two brothers that are maturing and changing, and may not always act or be the way that we would hope them to be. We as people are not as people hope we’d be, and just because we’re not what others hope we are doesn’t mean it’s wrong.”
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[i]”What has been put to bed, in many ways, is Sam’s rationale for why he did what he did,” Carver confirms. “He’s stated his reasons, and that’s why he did it.
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Carver’s explanations fall in line perfectly with my understanding of the emotional journey Sam has been on this season. I get it, I support it, and I’m fully on board. 🙂
If they had shown 10 seconds of Sam actually grieving, I might be able to buy that. But all they showed was Sam walked out took the Impala (probably doing a fist pump because now it belonged to him) and never thought about Dean again. And no, one sentence to Amelia’s father did not and will not do it for me.
I saw no grief from Sam. I saw Sam being disinterested in the fact that Dean wasn’t dead. I saw Sam’s character shredded so Dean could get a Better Brother and Cas could be absolved on any error from the get go.
For me the show and especially Sam has been destroyed and it looks fairly certain that it and Sam will never be repaired.
[quote]But all they showed was Sam walked out took the Impala (probably doing a fist pump because now it belonged to him) and never thought about Dean again.[/quote]
Um…no, that’s not what they showed.
I know it doesn’t work for you, Percy. You’ve made that abundantly clear many, many, many times. I get it. I’m sorry you’re bitter about it. Everyone to some extent sees what they want to see in the show, that much is obvious from the different opinions expressed on this site. If you’re not seeing what you want to see, I’d think at some point you either need to let it go and move on or give up.
reply to percysowner
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I agree.
if Carver wanted us to believe that Sam didn’t look, he had to give us a reason.
If my brother disappeared I would at least try and look for him, in Sam’s case it’s even more logical, especially when he must have known where Dean went.
I knew he went to Purgatory, so how could an intelligent, experienced hunter like Sam, not know?
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The ‘breaking down and running’ is also completely unbelievable.
In the show’s mythology, Sam has faced down Lucifer; has faced down the Trickster after searching for Dean like a robot for six months; no way is he going to dance off in the Impala and not even try to find his brother.
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Without a logical explanation, it just can’t be accepted and it has ruined the whole season for me along with the complete disregard for past canon, of course.
isleofskye, I really, really don’t want to come off as argumentative here, but
[quote]I knew he went to Purgatory, so how could an intelligent, experienced hunter like Sam, not know? [/quote]
I’m not sure what you mean here. We knew Dean was in Purgatory because they showed us he was in Purgatory. Sam didn’t get to see that, so I don’t see how that necessarily means that the right and only conclusion he could’ve come to was that Dean was in Purgatory.
[quote]The ‘breaking down and running’ is also completely unbelievable. [/quote]
The thing is though, and you mentioned some here is that Sam has gone through a lot throughout the series. Dean’s disappearance could have just been the straw that broke the camel’s back. One too many losses, especially of Dean. One too many piles of crap thrown his way. So, just my opinion, but it doesn’t seem that unbelievable to me.
I know you and many others are upset over this and I’m not trying to dismiss your opinions, just trying to give a viewpoint from someone who’s not really disgruntled by the whole thing. If you’ll take it, of course. 😳
[quote]Dean’s disappearance could have just been the straw that broke the camel’s back. One too many losses, especially of Dean. One too many piles of crap thrown his way. So, just my opinion, but it doesn’t seem that unbelievable to me.
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PaintedWolf, this is a good point that you raise. It’s NOT difficult to believe that Sam could have just cracked under the weight of Dean’s disappearance after all he’s been through, and I could have accepted that, if they had chosen to show any of it ON SCREEN in any way. But they didn’t. We didn’t see Sam grieve, or break or mentally collapse in any way at all. We had to learn from a one off, red shirt character that Sam burned down the lab the Leviathan were using. Why wasn’t that shown? Sam must have grieved Dean’s loss… why wasn’t THAT shown? Sam must have told Amelia about Dean and how difficult it was to loose him. Why wasn’t THAT shown? Why did we only get Amelia talking about how difficult it was to loose Don? a character we saw once, and don’t care about at all?
We’ve gotten to see Dean in purgatory, fighting for his life, and later discussing the experience with Sam and Benny and Castiel. Any actions Dean has taken during the course of the season have made sense given what we know and what we’ve SEEN of Dean experience. We’ve gotten to see Castiel in purgatory and in Heaven. We’ve gotten to see him discuss things with Dean, and wrangle with Naomi. It has given him a context and reasoning for everything that he’s done during the course of the season and his actions, like Dean’s, have made sense given what we’ve SEEN on screen pertaining to his experiences. What about Sam, what did they show us? Nothing. How are we supposed to connect to the validity of his story and his actions when we’ve seen nothing and had only a few words to explain his motivation? We can’t…. or at least I can’t. Even Benny was given more on screen motivation and reasoning than Sam has this season. So, sorry, but I am disagreeing with you here (obviously). No offense intended.
E, I totally understand, I do. I wasn’t necessarily saying it was the best decision they made, I was more reacting to isleofsky talking about how she didn’t buy the mental breakdown thing, and I was giving a reason why I didn’t think it was such an out-of-left-field suggestion that Sam [i]might[/i] have had a breakdown.
I underdstand your and many others’ frustrations about the way Sam’s story was portrayed. I’m just not unsatisfied with it myself.
The only bit of hope I can possibly offer, other than my own viewpoint of why I’m not wholly upset with the whole thing, is what Carver said about dealing with it in some form that’s surprising. I can only hope that this might mean some of those actual scenes you’ve talked about.
Chuck knows I’d love to see some myself. I just won’t be that upset if we don’t, us all.
Just wanted to add. Of course we don’t know for sure that Sam might have had a breakdown, since, as you said, we weren’t shown that. Still, if they’d given us that explanation, even without scenes to back it up, all I mean is that [i]I[/i] would have been inclined to believe it, because it seems to me something like that could have happened with all Sam’s been through.
Well I do agree with you here. It makes perfect sense that Sam would have a breakdown after all he’s been through. So, at this stage I would accept a late discussion of Sam’s past breakdown that we didn’t get to see or experience because it would be so much more than what we’ve gotten. I’ll take crumbs rather than substance now. How sad is that?
E, it is sad. But really I pretty much take anything at this point.
It’s horribly sad that I would probably settle for that at this point. OTOH, I’m really angry that the show has gotten to the point where I’m WILLING to settle for crumbs for Sam. We got three frickin episodes about Benny the Benevolent Vampire. We got to hear him wax poetic about Andrea. We got to see his love for his granddaughter. We got to see him sacrifice his life to do a favor for Dean. Sam hit a dog and met a girl. Dean never asked about Amelia or how Sam felt, not even how he felt about hitting a dog.
I’m pretty positive I will settle for one speech explaining Sam’s not looking for Dean. I’m not happy that I’m ready to settle for so little. I’m really sad because I don’t think I’m going to get even that much.
Once again we are in total agreement, E. I could have pretty easily placated. In fact, if they done in the first episode, I would have almost be fine with a single statement such as, “I looked, but I felt like my world imploded. Garth was of zero help, I couldn’t any leads, so I lost it and just ran until I hit a dog.” His not looking never becomes a real issue, even though his character still would have taken a hit, but considering the year he’d had before. I think it might have been enough to let me fill in the blanks. Especially if they showed him having problems in the flashbacks. The issue between Sam and Dean (since they seem to want one) was that Sam didn’t want to get back into hunting with or without Amelia. But doing it reluctantly anyway.
Not wanting to hunt doesn’t effect the core relationship but would still be a point of contention between them. But having him not look at all without explanation cuts at the heart of the show. It truly makes it seem that Dean is WAY more invested in there relationship than Sam is. Especially when they have him do things like sacrifice their grandfather and cut off Benny’s head to save Sam. So Dean is still willing to do anything for his brother. But Sam is mature so he just runs and settles down with a girlfriend and a dog.
[quote]It truly makes it seem that Dean is WAY more invested in there relationship than Sam is. Especially when they have him do things like sacrifice their grandfather and cut off Benny’s head to save Sam. So Dean is still willing to do anything for his brother. [/quote]
And Sam willingly risked himself and killed a hellhound to save his brother. He was more than willing to take on these trials, because he knew that it would become a suicide-mission for Dean, and he didn’t want that. Is that not demonstrative of brotherly love?
Thing is…Dean’s reckless disregard for himself or others when it comes to Sam still stems in large part from a lack of self-worth. Sam had to try and convince Dean “you’re not a grunt; you’re a genius.” (I really think Sam’s assertions that Dean doesn’t need him have been his way of trying to instill some self-worth in his brother – though Dean never heard it that way. It has always frustrated Sam how little Dean has valued himself). So Dean’s investment in the relationship to a large extent has been selfish, because being Sam’s protector is the only thing he recognizes as giving him worth and value. What’s truly remarkable for Dean’s character is when he steps back and acknowledges what Sam wants/needs over his own need to feel valued. JMO.
[quote] I would have almost be fine with a single statement such as, “I looked, but I felt like my world imploded. Garth was of zero help, I couldn’t any leads, so I lost it and just ran until I hit a dog.”
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But, minus the “I looked” – Sam said all those things.
He said his “world imploded.”
He said “Bobby was dead” and Cas was gone (their normal go-to’s in times of trouble)
He indicated he hadn’t had a clue Dean was in Purgatory.
He said hunting was “what got every member of his family killed”, indicating his loneliness and his decision to stop hunting.
That’s just how I look at it.
Yeah, kinda used those phrases deliberately to show that if they had put them in the first episode and added one KEY line then this wouldn’t have ever become an issue. But those little tidbits don’t cut it, when spread over half a season and you’ve already said he didn’t look. Once they said that, they’ve started a major issue that has to be resolve, but is obviously not going to be.
And that’s just how I look at it.
Fair enough. KELLY. For the record, I was not being sarcastic.
I’m going to bow out of this discussion, now. Judging by the comments on this thread, this thing is already getting too heated to result in constructive discussion. This issue has been discussed ad nauseum times over on many different threads, and I’ve already said my piece.
I do empathize with those who are frustrated, I’ve been there, though I haven’t dwelt there for long. That being said, I have just a few parting, general thoughts:
For those who’ve been part of the fandom for awhile and who are dissatisfied – haven’t you at some point in the past been similarly frustrated with a plot point or storyarc? Obviously you’re still around – what things made you stay? I’m assuming they were positive things. At what point do you make the decision to overlook, let go of, or accept the thing that frustrated you? (I know I had to do this a couple times during S7). We’re 20 episodes into the season, and this issue has finally been “resolved” , put to rest, by Carver’s interview. There is no big reveal. For better or worse, believe it or not, Sam really didn’t look for Dean. The question is: “now what?” How do you move forward? How do you deal with this in a constructive way?
[quote]For those who’ve been part of the fandom for awhile and who are dissatisfied – haven’t you at some point in the past been similarly frustrated with a plot point or storyarc? Obviously you’re still around – what things made you stay? I’m assuming they were positive things. At what point do you make the decision to overlook, let go of, or accept the thing that frustrated you? (I know I had to do this a couple times during S7). We’re 20 episodes into the season, and this issue has finally been “resolved” , put to rest, by Carver’s interview. There is no big reveal. For better or worse, believe it or not, Sam really didn’t look for Dean. The question is: “now what?” How do you move forward? How do you deal with this in a constructive way?[/quote]
No, as a matter of fact I haven’t EVER been this upset with this show. In fact, the only I can remember be this close to this upset about a TV is when they stupidly said Mulder left Scully to protect her and William on X-Files S9. It made absolutely no sense whatsoever and to this dad the only episode I can rewatch (I did watch on the first run to see if they could make it work-they didn’t) is the finale when Mulder comes back. But at least I understood WHY they Carter did that. The network wanted it to continue.DD didn’t renew so they had to try to work with what they had. I don’t even have big issues with S8 X-Files because he was kidnapped so there was no character or relationship destruction. And the episodes where he was back were great.
But I can’t figure out the motivation for a showrunner deliberately destroying the fundamental foundation of the show. The brothers’ bond. (not to mention destroying seasons worth of lore now, but that I couldn’t actually move past easier than this-even though it drives me crazy)I know you and others don’t see as a destruction but I can’t help but see it that way. I thought the first season was little weak, but I kept watching because of the bond and the chemistry between the brothers.
Season after season has built on that bond. Most of the big storyline arcs as well as the smaller ones revolve in some way around it. It is one of the things that set this show apart of so many others. It is the main reason I can rewatch an episode 30 times. Now it comes down to Dean is completely devoted to Sam and Sam is more or less okay with being with Dean. Back against the wall, we know Dean will fight Heaven and Hell to get to Sam. And Sam well it depends, there are factors to weigh in, things to consider. I’m yeah he’ll risk his life maybe, given the right set of circumstances. But if say he hits and dog and has a chance to settle down for a while well….After all they did have an agreement, well sort of. So yeah. A lot to think about before he makes that kind of decision.
Some how that is just not as compelling. So yes I’m going to have a hard time getting over this and I’m not totally sure I can. Especially if this is truly the way he is handling it. Because right now it is looking as if he cavalierly made a decision and now is sticking with it, come hell or high water.
My CONSTRUCTIVE way of dealing with it will be to watch the next 4 episodes and hope to Hell that something in one of them will make this work. (I seriously hopes this happens. I would be very happy to be completely embarrassed by my rants) And if not I will likely spend several weeks, being pissed and more than a little depressed that he managed to destroy a show I adored and ranting to all my family members until they get sick of me. And then I will likely just not watch the show anymore come S9, but still read reviews to see if some major turn has happened that will save the show for me. And when that doesn’t happen, I will accept that I will just have to get my Sam and Dean fix in S1-7 and very CONSTRUCTIVELY pretend this season never happened.
Which is what I do for S9 of the X-Files. And for one of my ex-favorite book series.
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My CONSTRUCTIVE way of dealing with it will be to watch the next 4 episodes and hope to Hell that something in one of them will make this work. (I seriously hopes this happens. I would be very happy to be completely embarrassed by my rants) And if not I will likely spend several weeks, being pissed and more than a little depressed that he managed to destroy a show I adored and ranting to all my family members until they get sick of me. And then I will likely just not watch the show anymore come S9, but still read reviews to see if some major turn has happened that will save the show for me. And when that doesn’t happen, I will accept that I will just have to get my Sam and Dean fix in S1-7 and very CONSTRUCTIVELY pretend this season never happened.
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Well said, Kelly.
This will be [b]exactly[/b] my reactions moving forward.
I believe it’s my line in the sand, unfortunately. Maybe I’ll feel differently by September, but I doubt it.
I have been frustrated before. But like you Kelly, I have never been this frustrated. I stuck around because I always thought that there was a chance that the issues I had could or would be explained either later in the season or during the next season (didn’t work for season 4 or 7, it did for season 6 and mostly 5). This is the first time I have had a show runner say straight out that what bothers me the most will NEVER get any more explanation than what we have heard. Bamboo, you are satisfied, I am not.
I don’t know how I will deal with this CONSTRUCTIVELY. I may not watch the final episodes until I have read reviews of them. I did that once this season because I was busy during the episode, but now it may be a conscious choice. I will have to see about next season. Last season, my line in the sand was that Sam had to make up for his failure to save Dean from Hell by saving him from Purgatory. I crossed that line in the sand. This one is too much for me. I may have to constructively realize this show will never again be what I want from it. I have four episodes and all summer to make up my mind.
Bamboo, you mentioned in another post that the only words Sam never said was “I looked”. For me those are the only words that mattered. I could have taken Sam’s grief not being shown on screen. I could have accepted my world imploded and I ran. I never had a problem with Sam settling down, except for his not alerting Garth that Kevin was in danger. I could have accepted all that if they had Sam say he looked, but that has never been stated. And now, even if they do, it may well be too late for me. An entire season of Dean and then Meg and Bobby telling Sam that he was wrong to not look is a lot to overcome and Carver’s dismissal of the idea that the issue even needs to be addressed does not make me feel that any care will be given to my concerns.
Kelly, I’m sorry you feel this way. If you allow me to help you, try to look at the situation this way:
Last time one brother was resurrected was Sam, by Cas. Who, pardon me, did an awful job and let loose a non-Sam, soulless Sam, Robot, psycho killer Sam, who made a lot of awful decisions. Consequently, Dean had to make a desperate move by killing himself and make a risky deal with Death. Which might not had been Dean’s first option to save Sam from the Cage, given other circumstances (Sam not being a psycho killer oddity). And even that, it almost didn’t work, and Dean was forced to momentarily face the possibility to kill Sam himself – what could possibly be worse than that for Dean? Thank God he didn’t need to!
The point I’m trying to make is, we don’t know what options Dean had in S06 and discarded because it would be too risky for the world and possibly worse than death for Sam himself, and the sacrifice he made by jumping into the Cage. Cas acted hastily and now Sam has to live with that memory that part of him killed innocent people. He said it himself this season, to Mrs. Tram: she asked if losing her soul would she die. Sam answered no, but she would wish she was dead. Which made me think Sam sometimes would rather be dead than having to live with the knowledge of what he did, albeit he was innocent, because it was not his fault he didn’t have a soul. He was certainly thinking about Dean too: to resurrect, or rescue Dean, might mean a toll on Dean worse than death.
I’m not saying Dean wasn’t right in forcing Sam’s soul into his body, or that Cas is evil because he resurrected Sam without his soul (I believe his intentions were good but he made a mistake and didn’t realize in the beginning he had no soul). What I’m trying to say is that these boys, these men, are always facing difficult, impossible decisions. And it is not only Sam that is supposedly vilified for making the assumed wrong decision – like not looking for Dean. If you think of Dean in S06, why didn’t he made that deal with Death before? He might have find some ways, we don’t know, but chose not to act, for the reasons I said before. Was Dean bad for not doing anything to rescue Sam, even at the risk of another Apocalypse? Not IMO. Was Sam wrong for trying a different approach from the usual, accept Dean’s death and not risk the world, or possibly his brother integrity? Not IMO. Does this mean Dean in S06 didn’t love Sam enough, or wasn’t sad enough for his death, because he didn’t try anything to rescue Sam from the Cage from the beginning? Not IMO. Does that mean that Sam in S08 didn’t love Dean enough because he was trying to recover from his death with Amelia? Not IMO. For me, the brotherly bond is still there, intact – they are still doing anything they can for each other (Sam doing the trials for Dean, Dean caring for Sam). But risking to destroy the world and your own brother you’re trying to save just for not being alone on Earth? Not an option anymore. Lesson learned.
Ale, I think it is very nice that you are taking the time to try to make it work for me the way it does for you, but fan explanation are not going to work for me in this case.
It’s true we don’t know what Dean might have thought of and discarded S6 to get Sam out and I didn’t need to know, because we knew he kept looking. Because they made sure to protect Dean’s character against any backlash from leaving Sam in the cage by saying he was still trying against all odds, despite his promise not to. And they even eventually had him succeed via Death, but that was a bonus. Just having him continue to try was enough to protect the character and the bond.
And that is really all I needed this season. I didn’t Sam to succeed (although that would have been nice since they’ve now have had him fail twice to rescue Dean and had Dean succeed twice and made it look super easy if Sam had bothered to try), I needed him to say he tried and failed or tried and realized that the methods he needed to use were too dangerous or say that he had good reason to believe Dean was dead and in Heaven and rescuing would not be a good thing or else became completely incapacitated so that he was unable to try due to the loss being so devastating and him being mentally fragile because of Hallucifer and having already just lost Bobby and Dean being the only and the most important thing he had left.
ANY of those would have be just fine and so were several other possibilities I’ve read from fans. But we didn’t get any of that. What we got was that he didn’t look and pretty much that is all. They haven’t filled in any of the HUGE ASS blanks that surrounded that and now JC says he has no intention of doing so. But, yay, we DO get to keep dealing with the fall out of Sam’s decision, even if we never get to know why he made it.
And I hate to say it but he says that Sam wasn’t WRONG for doing so but it keeps getting brought up in a way that definitely indicates Sam was absolutely wrong. And it has been repeated over and over and over again and Sam hasn’t given ANY defense against it, except the same useless one we’re are asked to swallow. He didn’t look. Get over it.
Kelly, I’m sorry I wasn’t able to help you. I tried just because this site, and the people posting here (including you!) has helped me before with my anxiety regarding the show, by helping me see things I was uneasy with in a better light, or from another perspective.
This is why I come here, only in this site, and only for SPN, because I don’t care about other shows. I’m trully sorry you are unhappy and I wish you’ll find a way to enjoy the show again as much as I do. 🙂
I know you were just trying to help and it was very nice. And I appreciate it-truly. But I have read tons of explanations by reviewers, posters and fan fiction writers. But this isn’t something fanwanking can correct for me, it has to come from the show. But it really is nice of you to try.
Ok, thanks! 🙂
[quote]And I hate to say it but he says that Sam wasn’t WRONG for doing so but it keeps getting brought up in a way that definitely indicates Sam was absolutely wrong.[/quote]
To me saying that Sam wasn’t WRONG to do this is a great demonstration of show don’t tell. The interviews tell us he wasn’t wrong, but we have been shown nothing to demonstrate that. We didn’t see him collapse mentally. We didn’t see him try and decide it would be wrong and dangerous to bring Dean back. All we have is Carver saying Sam wasn’t wrong and that is not enough. Show me WHY he wasn’t wrong and I’ll probably buy it. Tell me in an interview that Sam wasn’t wrong (but wasn’t right either) and then say that you refuse to delve into it any more than that and it’s not enough.
[quote]I didn’t Sam to succeed (although that would have been nice since they’ve now have had him fail twice to rescue Dean and had Dean succeed twice and made it look super easy if Sam had bothered to try), [/quote]
Ah, Kelly, this just about killed me. I hadn’t even considered what Taxi Driver did to the whole “Sam didn’t look for Dean” debacle. Now Sam looks like an even bigger boob for not just getting a crossroads demon and torturing it to find out about rogue reapers seeing as how ridiculously easy it turned out to be to get in and out of purgatory. He could have traveled to purgatory and had himself a look-see around as that seemed the most likely place for Dean to have ended up. He and Dean could have been home by dinner time had Sam chosen to do SOMETHING. And even if he hadn’t been able to find Dean, at least he could have known that he’d tried to help instead of whatever it was that he ended up doing… fixing air conditioners…entertaining Amelia… playing with Dog. And then maybe Dean wouldn’t have felt so abandoned and Sam wouldn’t now look so ineffectual and unfortunately like such a coward. Ugh. I am really starting to hate that episode. It’s really done a lot of damage to Sam and canon both.
[quote]Ah, Kelly, this just about killed me. I hadn’t even considered what Taxi Driver did to the whole “Sam didn’t look for Dean” debacle. [/quote]
It also makes most of season 6 stupid. Crowley wanted to find Purgatory. There are rogue reapers running around, WHO WORK WITH CROWLEY according to this episode and he never asks them if they know how to get into Purgatory. Why was he working with Castiel if he could have just hired a rogue reaper to show him the (not so) big and hidden boulder that led to Purgatory. He didn’t have to kill Dr. Visniak. He didn’t need virgin blood. He didn’t have to wait for an eclipse. He didn’t have to offer to split the souls of Purgatory with Castiel. He could have asked the rogue reaper. Heck he could have wandered around Hell, examining the walls to look for a little bit of light coming from around the boulder.
Then there’s the rogue reaper. Crowley indicated he knew him and that he worked for him at times. BUT he said that people usually didn’t pay him to get into Hell. So what were they paying him to do? Get out of Hell? Why would Crowley let him do that, steal a soul that belonged to Hell. Or maybe he’s getting souls into heaven. Would the angels allow that? Would Crowley allow someone that might belong to him wander off to heaven.
And what about the dragons? Why didn’t they find this rogue reaper to get Eve out of Purgatory. It would have save a lot of time trying to find the right virgin to kidnap for their ritual. Isn’t a rogue reaper easier than whatever hocus pocus they had to do to get Eve out?
I know season six wasn’t a big hit, although I liked it. But the whole point of Cas going bad was that Purgatory was almost impossible to get into and now apparently it was not that big a deal.
Oh canon, I’m standing on the dock watching you sail slowly (or maybe quickly) into the sunset.
So very true! 😥
I agree with Kelly, ST50 and Percy (sorry Bamboo). I too have NEVER been this frustrated with the show before; not when Sam was constantly morose all Season 3, not when he became a blood junkie and lied to Dean all season long in season 4, not when he was relegated to wallpaper in season 5 and not when he was soulless and a jerk in season 6. All those things had logic to them and were explained decently by the plot. This, the “not looking” goes against canon, against Sam’s own motivation (“You know me, you know why, I’m not leaving my brother alone out there.”) and against the basic premise of the show which is two brother’s who will do anything for one another. Now we have one brother who will do anything for the other and a second brother who finds a way to cope and move on with his life. 🙁 So, no, I have never been dissatisfied in this way before. I will watch to the end of the season and then try and take the summer to forget the first half of this season ever happened. Maybe I’ll start up the “SSCC” (Save Sam’s Character Club) and inundate TPTB until they fix this. The more annoying and screechy fans always seem to get the attention; I mean they actually used the word “megstiel” in an episode! 😀
I would join! Typically I would be against this type of thing, but this interview totally pissed me off.Seriously they couldn’t have thrown us a bone. It wouldn’t have taken at this level of desperation.
But I think we might as well wait on any inundating until after the season is over and see if there was any fix because I think they finish filming for this season this week. So this season is done for better or worse. It definitely looking like worse.
If you start it I will come! No really, if this season ends the way the interview makes it sound, then I’ll give a last gasp attempt to convince TPTB to save Sam’s character before I jump ship.
[quote]I agree with Kelly, ST50 and Percy (sorry Bamboo). I too have NEVER been this frustrated with the show before; not when Sam was constantly morose all Season 3, not when he became a blood junkie and lied to Dean all season long in season 4, not when he was relegated to wallpaper in season 5 and not when he was soulless and a jerk in season 6. All those things had logic to them and were explained decently by the plot. This, the “not looking” goes against canon, against Sam’s own motivation (“You know me, you know why, I’m not leaving my brother alone out there.”) and against the basic premise of the show which is two brother’s who will do anything for one another. Now we have one brother who will do anything for the other and a second brother who finds a way to cope and move on with his life. 🙁 So, no, I have never been dissatisfied in this way before. I will watch to the end of the season and then try and take the summer to forget the first half of this season ever happened. Maybe I’ll start up the “SSCC” (Save Sam’s Character Club) and inundate TPTB until they fix this. The more annoying and screechy fans always seem to get the attention; I mean they actually used the word “megstiel” in an episode! :D[/quote]
Count me in if that happens.
I read this interview with Carver a few days ago and was really afraid to look at the comments because I figured people would freak out … and guess what, they did. I accepted early in the season that Sam didn’t look, not because he didn’t care, but because he didn’t know where to begin to look and as Crowley put it he “was well and truly alone” without Bobby or Cas or anyone else really to help him. They’ve intimitated that he was pretty broken up about it and as much as I wish they’d shown more, they haven’t (yet) and I can live with that.
The biggest reason I love Supernatural (aside from the eye candy that is J2 and Misha) is the storytelling and as much as the drama can get stomach-wrenching sometimes I wouldn’t like the show as much if there wasn’t any friction between the characters and they always made the right decisions. I don’t think it would have made it to (now 9 seasons) if it was the happy-go-lucky brothers and their perfect little angel buddy fighting evil but never having a bad thing happen to them or between them. Might like that if I was a kid, but I’m not so give me the drama.
Basically, that was a long-winded way of saying I agree with you … I also had trouble with season 7 after Cas was “killed” and then Bobby but I stuck it out and there was a few episodes that I would be sad I’d missed. Most were meh, but I’ve been much happier with this season. There’s always a big picture the producers/writers have that can extend beyond one episode or even one season and it sounds like Carver has a plan on how to get the show through to season 10. So, I’ll wait and see what happens at the end of this season and next season because, as in life, sometimes problems/issues aren’t quickly resolved but when they are it’s a beautiful thing!
I dont mind things happening thats the world they live in , they dont live in a sterile world however Sam not looking has little to do with that. That was a creative decision based on a dubious promise and was bound to reflect back on Sam.
Wether there will be some moment that reveals a deeper story with Sam than’ his rationale was his rationale’ remains to be seen. But creating friction between the brothers by using Sam again and through something Sam did or did not do has become a over used plot point for me.
They have to create friction somehow and I would disagree it’s always about Sam making a bad decision. Remember when Dean decided he was going to say yes to Michael in Point of No Return and Sam had Cas zap him home and then locked him (twice) in the panic room? Or when Dean sold his soul to bring Sam back from the dead at the end of Season 2? And let us not forget Dean giving in to Allistair and torturing in Hell thereby breaking the first seal of Lucifers cage. that caused friction between them based on something Dean did. I’m not trying to bash Dean because I love Team Freewill all the way, bad decisions and all, but am just trying to point out they are all fallible … seems Sam makes a bit more bad decisions but he’s also the younger brother so that makes sense. I dunno, maybe it’s my own experience with having a younger brother that I love very, very much but has made some seriously boneheaded decisions that boggle my mind. He got it all figured out but had a lot harder time than I have had!
Hi dashnjo-I concur. I can almost match every bad decision that Sam has made with one that Dean has made. That is why I have some trouble with the idea that Sam is always made out as “bad” while Dean is always the golden one. Dean often ends up doing the right thing in the end and so does Sam. Thats why I love these guys. I agree with you that friction is what keeps things interesting. This season was rough early on, though! :sigh:
No kidding! The beginning of the season was a bit rough for everyone involved I think! But, when have they ever really had it easy? Between Dean being mad at Sam for not looking for him and feeling guilty about not getting Cas out (which as it turns out Cas never wanted to leave … although he maybe should have left with Dean considering how he actually ended up getting out) and Sam being mad about Benny there was a lot of bad blood but seems to be getting on better footing so that’s good!
Yes it is, hope it stays that way for now 🙂
Fingers and toes crossed! 😉
Of course you can disagree however I never said they werent both fallible but I do feel that it is through Sam that most friction has come. And I would also argue that Dean selling his soul was different from Sam not looking and that we knew why Dean would do that almost right from the begining of the show and esp season 2 it was a sl build up with Dean . Also breaking in hell would be a pretty hard thing to hold against Dean.
Sam not looking not only is a shift in character but the brothers relationship and that is why it has become a issue coupled with the telling of that sl . Others in this thread have put it far more better why it has become that issue.
Oh, I know why it’s an issue for a lot of people … and yes, I’ve heard the arguments, it’s been beaten to death almost and I was to the point of just looking at the reviews and not the comments because they were taking away from my enjoyment of the show but a few wonderful fellow posters talked me into sticking around.
I guess I don’t really keep track of how many times the boys and Cas have made bad decisions because they always come full circle in the end and like Carver said sometimes people don’t behave the way we want them to but, like Bamboo24 said “At what point do you make the decision to overlook, let go of, or accept the thing that frustrated you”?
If you want to hold on to it that’s fine as you’re not me and we don’t have to agree but I’m also far from the only person that has been able to move past Sam not looking for Dean. All I’m hoping for is an apology as some point (whenever that is) but maybe Sam will make it up to him in some other way yet to be revealed, maybe an act instead of words. Dunno, but I’ll be watching regardless …
For the record I moved past Sam not looking I am not really expecting anymore than a scene that will rehash it. We will have to disagree on the bad decisions part and how Sam’s and the others are respectively presented and treated.
And again it isnt about how I want someone to act but in deciding to take that character down that road how you deal and present the sl . I think Sam’s human not looking sl speaks for its self.
Ah, I see! I actually think in some ways we agree more than disagree … on the Sam sl at least. Carver did say that Sam not looking for Dean is still an open wound so I have a feeling it will be dealt with again and that’s the part that I’m interested in.
The bad decisions thing well, it’s not that I don’t notice or occasionally yell at the screen not to do something or whatever because I do … often. However, I just don’t keep track and most of the bad decisions I don’t hold against them because they most often didn’t find out the truth until it’s done. And we can disagree because we see it differently and it would be a boring world if we all thought exactly the same! Have a good Monday!
[quote][quote]Dean’s disappearance could have just been the straw that broke the camel’s back. One too many losses, especially of Dean. One too many piles of crap thrown his way. So, just my opinion, but it doesn’t seem that unbelievable to me.
[/quote]
PaintedWolf, this is a good point that you raise. It’s NOT difficult to believe that Sam could have just cracked under the weight of Dean’s disappearance after all he’s been through, and I could have accepted that, if they had chosen to show any of it ON SCREEN in any way. But they didn’t. We didn’t see Sam grieve, or break or mentally collapse in any way at all. We had to learn from a one off, red shirt character that Sam burned down the lab the Leviathan were using. Why wasn’t that shown? Sam must have grieved Dean’s loss… why wasn’t THAT shown? Sam must have told Amelia about Dean and how difficult it was to loose him. Why wasn’t THAT shown? Why did we only get Amelia talking about how difficult it was to loose Don? a character we saw once, and don’t care about at all?
i think they did show it onscreen, only imo they did it in a subtle manner more than an in your face matter. i think the reason they did that , and it’s jmo of course, is because carver planned all along to explain sam at the end of the season.
i did see grief and i did see a crack in sam’s emotional foundation….but then that’s me.
i saw grief in every fb he had of amelia….because even though it was all from her pov, his face was always sad and he always seemed to me to be so disconnected …as if off in his own thoughts .
as a matter of fact, sam being with amelia in the first place screamed to me that sam was grieving and in a very bad place. the reason he took notice of her in the first place was because as he said, he knew she was lost…he recognized the signs as he was lost himself. and sam seeing everything from amelia’s pov, well for me, that pretty much explained the reason sam was with her…why he chose her…why he needed to help her….she was him….and imo sam helping her, trying to save her, in turn helped him save himself….it gave him focus, purpose and time to heal….what better way find strength than to have to be strong for someone else? that’s the maturity i think carver was referring to….sam finding his way back instead of letting his break destroy him completely….putting his own devastation on the back burner to help someone else, then having the courage to see that what he had wasn’t real….that the time has come to get back to his life even if it meant having to give up the little bit of joy he let himself have …..living normal and safe ….even if just for a little while….that sacrifice was also an example of sam’s maturity…
but i digressed…i do have a habit of tooting sam’s horn since he never does…
i thought grief and emotional damage was also shown when he went overboard emotionally when he hit riot…sam under any other circumstances would’ve been upset but he would’ve remained calm….this sam had a total freakout…. he also went overboard in the panic when he couldn’t find amelia in the park….again…it was a park…under any other circumstances i don’t think sam would’ve flipped out like that…
as for the other why’s…like i said, it’s my belief that sam’s part of the story was meant for the second half…it’s not like that hasn’t happened before….
as i recall from the last few seasons, the first half would focus on dean and the second half would focus on sam….but their stories would still intertwine throughout if that makes any sense….
i still believe that we’ve been purposely given sam’s story in such a way that we would question his actions in the first half up until now, so that it can all be revealed in a way carver deems exciting and interesting and worth the wait in the finale….
that’s the theory i’m going with 😆
[b][quote][quote]Dean’s disappearance could have just been the straw that broke the camel’s back. One too many losses, especially of Dean. One too many piles of crap thrown his way. So, just my opinion, but it doesn’t seem that unbelievable to me.
[/quote]… and I could have accepted that, if they had chosen to show any of it ON SCREEN in any way. But they didn’t. We didn’t see Sam grieve, or break or mentally collapse in any way at all. We had to learn from a one off, red shirt character that Sam burned down the lab the Leviathan were using. Why wasn’t that shown? Sam must have grieved Dean’s loss… why wasn’t THAT shown? Sam must have told Amelia about Dean and how difficult it was to loose him. Why wasn’t THAT shown?[/quote][/b]
I just have to agree with E here. Just imagine if I’m from far away country and not getting enough internet connection (but can watch the show anyway), not too much involved within the fandom and discussion.
I WOULDN’T have known about Carver’s reason. I WOULD still wondering why Sam didn’t look for Dean. Because it’s not SHOWN ON SCREEN. And We, in this site, only get this information on the writer’s motive for writing Sam’s plotline from interviews and forum.
If I erase all my knowledge about Writer’s interview and all of your assumptions, assumptions, guessings, theories… What would I get as a fan and a loyal viewers of the show???? Nothing but confusion and outrage because I don’t understand Sam’s motive for not looking for Dean because it’s not SHOWN ON SCREEN. On SCREEEN ON SCREEN!!!!
I’m one of the few people who is okay about Sam not looking for Dean but that said, I wholeheartedly agree that they picked a lousy way to show it.
They chose to try to express Sam’s feelings through other people’s statements (they’re still doing it) instead of letting Sam speak or show for himself. The way they chose to show all this is an experiment that went horribly wrong. It would have been much better on the fans if they had shown any of Sam’s grieveing for Dean.
For example: I had no idea that he had burned down the Leviathan’s lab. I haven’t been backtracking to watch the Amelai -centric episodes so I completely missed that. It would have been much better if they’d started the season off right where season 7 left off instead of a year later.
Okay ,we knew going into the season about the flashbacks and I was al lenthused to see how they would do it, but it turned out to be a disaster in Sam’s case.
Answering to Painted Wolf.
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Thanks for your observation and I’ll try to explain my POV.
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Sam knew that when monsters die they go to Purgatory.
As Dean has just killed Roman, an ex-Purgatory monster, and was standing right next to him when he died, it was a good guess that Dean had been sucked into Purgatory along with him.
In Sam’s hunter mind, that would have been at least a possibility to check out, if nothing else.
There was no body,so Dean wasn’t killed outright in the blast, therefore obviously something supernatural was going on.
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Sam had many ways of checking that out, between contacting spirits and whatnot, so its hard to believe he couldn’t quickly get confirmation of what had happened to Dean.
Now if he had done all this and not been able to do anything to get Dean out of Purgatory, then I would have been fine with that.
Recently we have had the ret-con about the rogue reapers which make Sam’s not looking even worse because all he had to do was torture a demon, find the reaper and go into Purgatory as he did for the second trial.
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As for Sam’s world imploding and his going off grieving.
Now I can understand someone, a ‘civilian’ perhaps, being overwhelmed and running away distraught, but that person could never have been Sam. It just doesn’t fit the character, especially not where Dean is concerned.
These are not normal brothers, as Lisa acurately pointed out, and Sam has been through far worse.
Looking for Dean would have been the foremost thing on his mind and the fact that he didn’t look,, isn’t credible.
The actor himself gave a nod to that and having portrayed Sam for over seven years he should have a pretty good insight on his character.
You make good points, isleofskye. I know Purgatory was the logical conclusion, but I always felt it wasn’t the only conclusion Sam could have come to.
Thing is, you say Sam wouldn’t have run away or anything like that, but the thing is, yes he might not have walked away in the past, but I always felt like it was a build-up of things, that after everything Sam went through he just [i]couldn’t[/i].
If I may add a slight personal note, I think I get what I’ve understood from Sam’s story because I went through something similar-at least from what I think they were trying to describe from things like “my world imploded” and “I ran”. It gets to a point where no matter how mundane a task is, everything seems an impossibilty, even if it’s just getting through one day at work, or trying to find your missing brother. Maybe my own experience has coloured my interpretation of the whole thing, which is why I’m not as upset over the whole thing as everyone else, despite the lack of screen time and focus for the story.
Not saying my interpretation is right of course, just this is the way I feel and the point I’ve come to in my consideration of Sam’s story, I guess.
replying to painted wolf.
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In the normal scheme of things I could agree with you about grieving and how one might respond to continued pain, but as I said, these brothers are not normal; they were geneticaly engineered to be angelic vessels; one had demon blood forced down his throat, the other sold his soul to bring his brother back to life; the other again spent years in the Cage being tortured by Lucifer,etc, etc but in the end their brotherly love saved the world.
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That’s why I can’t equate their feelings and reactions with ours or with your own sad experience, no matter how painful.
However I do understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t see it that way for the Winchesters.
Yes, I know we’ll probably end this on an agree to disagree, and I do get it. Just putting my thoughts out there.
I think I’m more likely to equate Sam’s and Dean’s feelings and reactions to my own, because I’m more inclined to see them as human, first and foremost, which to me means, despite the vessels and demon blood and anything else, can still go through the same things that we ourselves go through, that they are still as fallible and capable of falling victim to the self-same weaknesses-be it physical, emotional or mental-as us ordinary humans(and fans).
But hey, we all see this show in different ways. It’s more interesting like that.
[quote]
If I may add a slight personal note, I think I get what I’ve understood from Sam’s story because I went through something similar-at least from what I think they were trying to describe from things like “my world imploded” and “I ran”. It gets to a point where no matter how mundane a task is, everything seems an impossibilty, even if it’s just getting through one day at work, or trying to find your missing brother. .[/quote]
I hear you, Painted Wolf. This is EXACTLY why I needed Sam and Dean to be able to carry on. Do what they’ve always done.
Find the strength to carry on.
Be the Hero.
Overcome.
Painted Wolf, I want you to know I truly appreciate that you are trying to give those of us who are upset hope without dismissing our concerns condescendingly.
(not that I thought you were, Alice)
Thanks Kelly. To be honest, right now it seems to be upsetting me more that there are so many people so upset with Show.
I’m not sure that I’m going to continue posting comments about this whole thing, since I realised this morning that I’m a little too stressed about it to feel completely comfortable.
Please know though, I’m not offended by anything anyone has said, and wanted to say thanks for reading.
I can only say that I hope from the bottom of my heart for everyone that has been upset by this, that the last 4 episodes, even if they don’t clear up your apprehensions entirely, that they at least provide some hope or even enough of a salve to your worries that you are willing to return to next year.
[quote]Thanks Kelly. To be honest, right now it seems to be upsetting me more that there are so many people so upset with Show.
I’m not sure that I’m going to continue posting comments about this whole thing, since I realised this morning that I’m a little too stressed about it to feel completely comfortable.
Please know though, I’m not offended by anything anyone has said, and wanted to say thanks for reading.
I can only say that I hope from the bottom of my heart for everyone that has been upset by this, that the last 4 episodes, even if they don’t clear up your apprehensions entirely, that they at least provide some hope or even enough of a salve to your worries that you are willing to return to next year.[/quote]
Please don’t feel so stressed. The people that are complaining so fiercely are doing so because they love the show so much. Some seem to forget that the show has always leaked information on subjects, but it is completely different than what actually happens. Surprise!
I need you to feel good about your show. I need you to feel good about the fandom, even tho that’s difficult. I don’t know you, but I feel bad that you feel bad and I want to fix it somehow. I’m so sorry you feel bad. It gives me heart pain.
Before anyone says I don’t love the show, I have watched since the first episode (day of), have all the boxed sets and companion guides, and it is the ONLY tv show I watch.
I’m reading this thread wondering why y’all just don’t wait and see what happens instead of being angry ahead of time. We are so close to the end. Discussion is great, but My Chuck!, we can’t write the show.
Thanks so much for your concern, love2boys. Don’t worry, I’m not upset with the show or even the fandom, and I do feel good about the show, and I know those that are upset still love the show. In fact, I’m actually quite excited about the last 4 episodes.
I just felt I should take a tiny step back from this particular topic, though I think the stress I was feeling (and still do to a small degree) is bleed through from a hectic month both at work and in my personal life, and seeing those upset with the show just caught me a little off guard this time. Now that I have some breathing room, though, I can hopefully gather my wits about me again. 😆
Hey PaintedWolf. I understand how you feel. It is easy to get caught up in the emotions. When you factor in REAL life sometimes it can get to you, boy do I know!! Try to keep your optimism for this show we love. The current venting is healthy I think, it has been brewing all season. People need to get their disappointment off their chests. Now gather your wits and keep commenting 😆
[quote]If they had shown 10 seconds of Sam actually grieving,[/quote]Yes exactly.while they can spend time on dean’s sadness after Sam went to hell at the very beginning of season 6, Sam’s will be either too little too late or they don’t show it at all
Bamboo, I was actually going to quote this exact line too:
[quote][T]he idea was two brothers that are maturing and changing, and may not always act or be the way that we would hope them to be. We as people are not as people hope we’d be, and just because we’re not what others hope we are doesn’t mean it’s wrong.”[/quote]
That’s something I felt is very true, not just for the show, but life in general.
I like what Carver has said here, though this is coming from a fan who’s been happy with this season so far.
[quote]Bamboo, I was actually going to quote this exact line too:
[quote][T]he idea was two brothers that are maturing and changing, and may not always act or be the way that we would hope them to be. We as people are not as people hope we’d be, and just because we’re not what others hope we are doesn’t mean it’s wrong.”[/quote]
That’s something I felt is very true, not just for the show, but life in general.
I like what Carver has said here, though this is coming from a fan who’s been happy with this season so far.[/quote]
Please explain to me how running away is mature. If one of my family disappeared I would spend time looking for them. And I don’t know the things that Sam does about the supernatural world. What happened to the Sam who said this “you know me, you know why, I won’t leave my brother alone out there” ?
This makes absolutely no sense to me.
For me, JC threw Sam’s character under a bus and ran over him repeatedly. This interview confirms everything I’ve believed since epi 1.
Replying to Jo1027
I agree completely with what you’ve said.
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Then to add to your quote, “You’re my big brother, There’s NOTHING I wouldn’t do for you.”
or
“Dean: What?
Sam: It’s just I wish you would drop the show and be my brother again. Cause.. just cause. “
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Just two of the many wonderful past brother moments on this show and Carver has brought us to this, Sam not even trying to look for Dean.-Just no.
I meant the part about [quote]We as people are not as people hope we’d be, and just because we’re not what others hope we are doesn’t mean it’s wrong[/quote].
I was only pointing out that I think it’s true that we and others hardly ever truly live up to what is expected of us and what we expect of other people. That’s all.
I really liked what he said as well so you’re not alone! I expected when I looked at the comments about the interview they were for the most part going to be scathing and I wasn’t surprised unfortunately. I’ve been happy with it for the most part as well this season!
[quote]Jeremy Carver’s words make such great sense to me. Though as much as I would have wanted Sam to search for Dean his reasoning, his grief and his trying for hope are so real and so Sam as I have come to know him. And so understandable. The work I do in everyday life is all about grief and regrets and complex relationships. And learning to grow in them, even when someone is not quite as we hoped. It is quite amazing to watch such a relationship on my favourite show. As well as experiencing my own relationship with my favourite brothers.[/quote]
I have always been satisfied with Sam’s reason for his actions even if I didn’t like them. And as Jeremy states the people we love do not always do what we want them to . We have to accept the people we love just as they are.
So it seems Carver has confirmed that Sam didn’t look for Dean, end of story; and so doing has definitely trashed Sam.
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No matter what happens in the future, even if Sam were to sacrifice himself for Dean, that action of ‘not looking’ will forever be imprinted on him as a character and remain a slur.
So, so wrong.
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However ‘mature’ Carver wanted Sam to become, it wouldn’t have prevented Sam looking for Dean, even out of pure curiosity, if Carver didn’t want him to do it out of love for his big brother; somethng that seems too mushy now for Carver, but which has always been the basis and heart of the show.
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You can’t take a character and twist him around. If you do so you at least have to give a reasonable explanation, and I haven’t seen even the whisper of one.
Well I am not in the catagory of I will have faith in everything the show does and the showrunner puts forward. Mr Carver has his view and what he sees as maturity and that is his right and it being his story I can understand that. I don’t believe that they would of put Dean in the same position or used maturity to explain it. And frankly my idea of ‘maturity’ and his are two different things .
The story has damaged Sam and all the faith in the writers and belief on Mr Carvers part will not change that but obviously they will bring it up again so obviously it will be used to cause a situation between the brothers which is not that unusual they have being doing that with Sam since season 4. Personally I didnt need another season of Sam did X or he didnt do X and this is the X it did to Dean but thats the way they went. I do say that he has stood by what story he has presented and that is admirable it doesnt change my mind about the sl or the approach to Sam yet again but I dont have a obligation to believe in that particular sl so my apologizes to Jeremy Carver.
[quote]I don’t believe that they would of put Dean in the same position or used maturity to explain it.[/quote]Me too
Wow, he really added fuel to an out- of- control fire, didn’t he? The worst part really is that Jared probably knows how people feel about it too. I always sort of naively hope that the actors are insulated from the fan stuff because it can be so toxic, but obviously this isn’t the case here.
Sigh…….
Sigh…….[/quote]
[quote]Wow, he really added fuel to an out- of- control fire, didn’t he? Sigh…….[/quote]
Fuel to the fire, indeed.
It’s not the story I have issues with, as JC’s response seems to imply; it’s the storytelling. Had Sam’s actions and ‘maturity’ been based in solid storytelling, it would not have generated anywhere near the rancour it did.
If you ever did jigsaw puzzles as a kid, do you remember when you had two pieces that you could fit together but they didn’t quite sit right? As much as you wanted them to be a match, they weren’t. It wasn’t a true fit. That’s how I feel about the transition between Season 7 and Season 8 – it doesn’t sit right. And that, simply put, is a failure in storytelling.
Hey, Carver’s a professional; obviously he’s not going to trash-talk his co-workers and employees but Kripke, with that irrepressible enthusiasm of his, was always able to admit when they didn’t quite get what they were reaching for, or failed outright.
I hope that when the season is over, and Carver is not handcuffed by the need to protect spoilers for remaining episodes, we get an interview from him where he discusses the successes and failures of this season. IMHO, there were plenty of both. That will give us hope for next season. Of course, his ideas on what didn’t work may be different from ours…. 🙁
P.S. There have been references on the boards (here and elsewhere) to Jared diplomatically expressing disappointment with some of Sam’s storyline this year but I have never heard it from the moose’s mouth, so to speak. Does anyone know where or if he actually said this?
reply to scullspeare
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I read something in the meetand greet of the vegas com.
“He (JP ) said that he felt that the Amelia storyline was somewhat weak. Nothing to do with Liane Balaban’s performance, but the story line didn’t fit well with Sam’s character. Jared also didn’t like the fact that Sam didn’t look for Dean.”
Thank you – I’ll look for those reports. 🙂
Scullspeare, I think JC has to take to hit on this one. He is the one who decide that Sam didn’t look and he wrote the 1st episode where Sam said that and he didn’t give us any further explanation. And he is showrunner so if he was going to expand the story in another way he should have made that clear to his staff. Even Edlund’s Sam’s flashbacks were just off and not compelling. That is the first time of had anything negative to say about his writing. The rest of the episode was excellent, but that the S/A flashbacks were sub par. I have to give Edlund the benefit of the doubt since it is the only time I’ve had issue with an episode of his. Carver did not have a handle on that storyline.
Wow! That certainly changes all my speculations about Sam not looking for Dean. I don’t see it as maturity on Sam’s part. JC makes it sound like maturity means being self centered and ignoring your responsibilities. Sam didn’t just leave Dean hanging, he left Kevin on his own too. I have to say, I’m a little disappointed in JC’s comments. My sympathy to you percysowner because I know how much this issue has upset you and I get your pain.
I’ll just say that this makes me very very sad. For personal reasons, this just hurts.
It’s silly, I know. It’s just a TV show. But I feel like I’m suffering another loss.
I’ll watch the last 4 episodes, and hope that something in it makes sense out of this for me, but I guess I’ll just have to decide if there are enough other reasons to tune in next year.
It sounds like my show will no longer fill my need. 😥
[quote]I’ll just say that this makes me very very sad. For personal reasons, this just hurts.
It’s silly, I know. It’s just a TV show. But I feel like I’m suffering another loss.
I’ll watch the last 4 episodes, and hope that something in it makes sense out of this for me, but I guess I’ll just have to decide if there are enough other reasons to tune in next year.
It sounds like my show will no longer fill my need. :cry:[/quote]
This interview has completly ruined SPN for me. I’m in the same boat as you.
*Apologies, this is a complete rant, It will be the last one though (if that helps) I am going to bow out of the fandom for a while because it is causing me too much stress*
I agree with you ST50. While for me this news is a pity and very disappointing I could deal with whatever the writers chose to make out of it.
However the fact that they have been poking at this hornets nest week in and week out and making Sam’s character appear worse and worse just so they can rescue it by having some big sacrifice he makes at the end of the season? When has he ever been allowed the redemption that he has earned? Either by the show’s universe or by the fandom.
This has been an extraordinarily negative season for anyone who loves Sam’s character and I think that Jared has had the second most thankless role on TV this year after the actress who plays Amelia. I get that that might be a controversial argument (see zap2it article title for more detail) but frankly at the moment I am so pissed I don’t care.
The way the author chose to title the article annoys the hell out of me. I feel that it reflects the way a small and very vocal section of the fandom thinks and looks to me like the trends from this season will continue where one brother gets all the character development and the other one is simply the one things happen to.
I think that the trials have been a very small sop, that I don’t think anyone necessarily wanted, (though it did nip the Dean/Sam Batman/Robin jokes right in the bud which was the major good thing about it) to people who want character interaction for Sam that the writers just don’t want to give him.
Dean fans want action/adventure /killing things, Sam fans want to know how Sam ticks. Would It kill the writers to address both these issues? Also do the writers have to come out and say that they like to write for Dean/Cas /whatever character they themselves created? The silence on the OTHER name is noted by us you know guys.
I can’t deal with any of this. It is incredibly frustrating.
And yes, the writers and showrunners are entitled to do whatever they like with their sandbox. Why is it so difficult for them to make it fun though?
*I am sorry if I offended anyone*
U totally put my thoughts above. As a fellow Sam fan I am too miserable by reading the comments there.
You really put this well, so thank you.
[quote]Jared has had the second most thankless role on TV this year after the actress who plays Amelia. [/quote]
Okay I watch Grimm. At least he didn’t get scratched by a magic cat that made him forget only one person and have a magically driven obsession with another and have to stand around being dull and stupid for most of the season. And repeatedly asking what is going on and when people say there was a cat scratch yell don’t tell me about the cat scratch. Waves at Bitsie Tulloch. But yeah, Jared could have played this year in his sleep, which is good because apparently he was directed to act as though he was sleepwalking for many of the episodes.
st50, you expressed my thoughts perfectly. I know it’s stupid but I actually felt like crying after I read this. I love the show for many reasons but without that wonderful, irrational codependent bond going both ways, it just won’t be the same show for me. And if he truly believe this is maturity, than is he going to have Dean moving in that same direction? With that and letting years of lore to be ruined in 1 episode, I’ve pretty much lost faith in him. This is really the person who wrote Mystery Spot and Point of No Return, 2 of my favorite episodes?
But like you said I’ll watch the last 4 and hope/pray something that happens makes this work. I keep thinking maybe he’s just winding us up the way Kripke use to, but it definitely didn’t sound like it. And if he is he might have gone too far, because I’m sorely tempted not to watch at all, because I’m afraid it’s just going to depress me more than I already am.
Because he said it wasn’t going to be drop, but the rationale just had to be accepted. So not only am I not getting any explanation for Sam’s actions, but not I’m going to have to be reminded of it over and over and over again. So I can’t even just pretend the first 10 episodes didn’t happen. I just want to be wrong about this and have whatever they are going to do work.
[quote]”What has been put to bed, in many ways, is Sam’s rationale for why he did what he did,” Carver confirms. “He’s stated his reasons, and that’s why he did it.[/quote]
Um…..What rationale exactly? When did Sam explain his rationale? To Dean, to Kevin… to anyone using words that showed us how he FELT? We know how Kevin feels about Sam not looking, how Dean feels about it, Bobby, Garth even MEG! But not Sam. “I ran,” and “my world imploded” is not an emotional arc or an exploration of a character’s emotions or motivations. I’m extremely disappointed that Mr. Carver can’t seem to see that and somehow thinks that this storyline has been completed.
They’ve forced Sam to use this weak fabricated promise idea (that never existed)…but not only do none of US buy that irrational excuse, neither do any of the other characters in the show as evidenced by the past several weeks of said characters bringing it up and bashing Sam with it; even Jared, whom almost NEVER reveals his complaints to the public has said publicly he didn’t buy it either. No, Mr. Carver, that is not a rationale at all, it’s an excuse (and a poor one) that does not stand up to logic, common sense, good story telling or established character traits. I am sorely disappointed in these comments. It seems as though JC himself can’t come up with a decent “rationale” of his own for why he’s done this to Sam in the first place. What a total bummer. I’ve been a champion of some type of great reveal all season long, but this is a serious blow to my faith. I just hope that whatever they do ‘reveal’ at the end of this season doesn’t make me want to quit the show.
In the story Dean is working very hard to let it go, to see Sam fully and to see ways of being and caring and living with new eyes. In between the lines perhaps, to even understand more fully his brother’s original need to leave for college, to run away as a young teenager. But to know that Sam still loves him. And for Dean that is a very large step. Why can we not take the same step? Dean has the same struggle as us, but it does not mean he is right and Sam is wrong. The show has been very clear on that. What is going on in Sam’s own mind? I would say on Mystery spot we saw the fight inside of him and the illness that grief wears in him. This new and more mature Sam did not want to be that person. He wanted to heal. That is a good thing. Wanting to personally heal is not self centred. It actually allows for better relationships with others.
Sorry, Joruth, but children and teenagers tend to be self absorbed because they are immature and don’t always see the consequences of their actions on others. What other hunters knew about Kevin’s predicament except Sam? Not looking for Dean, okay maybe, leaving Kevin in the wind, irresponsible. That is not my definition of growth and maturity or how to have better relationships. Saying all this, I will watch SPN to the bitter end. Just hope it doesn’t get too bitter.
[quote]In the story Dean is working very hard to let it go, to see Sam fully and to see ways of being and caring and living with new eyes. In between the lines perhaps, to even understand more fully his brother’s original need to leave for college, to run away as a young teenager. But to know that Sam still loves him. And for Dean that is a very large step. [/quote]
This is great development for Dean regarding Sam and a long time coming IMO, but what has Sam learned regarding Dean? Nothing that we have been shown. Dean has all this great new insight into Sam, but Sam hasn’t really shown that he better understands Dean at all, making all this character development irritatingly one sided. So, Dean is learning how to accept his fallible brother, who continually comes up short and disappoints him. How nice for Dean to be so patient and accepting, but where does that leave Sam? It just looks like Sam has once again made terrible mistakes and Dean has to figure out a way to forgive him and move on. It’s one sided and shines a very nasty light on Sam. IMO anyway.
[quote]But to know that Sam still loves him. And for Dean that is a very large step. Why can we not take the same step? Dean has the same struggle as us, but it does not mean he is right and Sam is wrong. The show has been very clear on that.[/quote]
How exactly has the show been clear that Dean being right does NOT mean that Sam is wrong? Meg called Sam out on hitting the dog and not looking for Dean or her. IMO That is the show calling Sam wrong. Bobby calling Sam out for following the “non-promise” is the show calling Sam wrong. Dean ragging on Sam for 10 episodes for not looking for him is the show calling Sam wrong, and all with not ONE WORD from Sam about what he was actually thinking or feeling at the time so that he can have a chance to explain himself or offer up his own side of the story to make him seem less wrong.
[quote]What is going on in Sam’s own mind? I would say on Mystery spot we saw the fight inside of him and the illness that grief wears in him. This new and more mature Sam did not want to be that person. He wanted to heal. That is a good thing. Wanting to personally heal is not self centred. It actually allows for better relationships with others.[/quote]
When, in this season, did Sam say or indicate that he was trying not to fall into old destructive patterns? I could have understood and accepted it if Sam had said at any time, to any character at all that he had a history of going off the rails where Dean was concerned and he was trying not to repeat those traits, but they did not show us this or even indicate it in any way. We have had to infer it, which means it’s head canon. I want real canon.
I am sorry to jump all over your post, I hope that you aren’t offended, and if you’ve read the other posts you’ll see that I’ve been on here a lot this AM; but this recent article has just made me so mad! I am completely baffled that JC thought that this would somehow explain things. Did he really think that he could say what he did and we’d all just go “ah, OK then…good to know” Humph!. 😮
Please know I am not offended. I know this story of relationships and grief and change has touched me deeply and I feel very engaged in it. I would say that I think a television show and its story are intuitive as not everything can be shown. However, I often think real life relationships are much the same. I think that is why we see and hear things differently. So I am very fine with you thinking differently. It pushes me to clarify my own thoughts. Still all in all I am more interested in hearing and reading what you think than debating. I also love watching Supernatural unfold the story of the brothers. And appreciate the conversation and passion.
Aw, you are very kind. Thank you for putting up with my rant and not being offended that I picked apart your post. 😳
I am glad a few people here are basically happy with how things are going. 🙂
I agree with you. Only thing I can think is let Jared not offended by all negativity. He doesn’t seem to get love from fandom.
replying to witch 22
x
Anyone who criticises the actor is making a big mistake.
X
The only ones to have a finger pointed at them are the writers.
They make up the stories and the actors are forced to act them out, whether they agree with them or not, so neither JP or JA have any blame for how the showrunner decides to go.
Probably the actors don’t share Carver’s vision either but they are far too professional to comment, which is as it should be.
Just FYI, Jared isn’t really in tune to the online fandom. Sure, he’s on Twitter, but most lead actors learned long ago not to read a lot of fan feedback online. For one, they don’t have that kind of time. Two, fans are nuts. 🙂 (Hey, I’m guilty of that!)
When he’s at cons, he’s seriously surprised to hear some things that are common knowledge among the fandom. In his words (Jensen’s too), they live in a “fishbowl” in Vancouver, away from it all. They only hear things at cons. And I’ll tell you, the fan love at those cons is so overwhemingly positive, these guys never get to see the ugly side of it. I admire that bliss!
[quote]Just FYI, Jared isn’t really in tune to the online fandom. Sure, he’s on Twitter, but most lead actors learned long ago not to read a lot of fan feedback online. For one, they don’t have to kind of time. Two, fans are nuts. 🙂 (Hey, I’m guilty of that!)
When he’s at cons, he’s seriously surprised to hear some things that are common knowledge among the fandom. In his words (Jensen’s too), they live in a “fishbowl” in Vancouver, away from it all. They only hear things at cons. And I’ll tell you, the fan love at those cons is so overwhemingly positive, these guys never get to see the ugly side of it. I admire that bliss![/quote]
Thanks Alice. That’s good to know. Let’s hope it keeps up because I would hate for either one of them to hear some of the things that are said. I think they’ve both said they are very protective of their characters and I would hate for Jared to catch any of the vitriol that Sam is getting for how he’s been written this season.
Oh! Thank U so much. He is a great guy who deserve to keep smiling. *love his dimples*
Thank you Alice for that info.
I’ve been hoping they don’t ever see the nasty side of the fandom. I don’t want them to be hurt or disenchanted by some of us. I love them both and can’t help feeling defensive for them.
Just want to say I’m happy Jeremy Carver is in charge of the show now and I believe he knows what he is doing. Even Eric got the over the top criticism, so nothing new in that area.
Sam and Dean are supposed to be human beings, Dean more than Sam a bit though. Why do we expect them to always be Supermen? Their faults and foibles just make me love them even more! Dean has low self-esteem, almost nil self-esteem, and Sam has had a crapload of s**t heaped on his head. It would be unreal if it didn’t leave a mark on him. How many times can he lose his brother and not go insane? To me, they are both the greatest heroes of all, just because of those faults they desperately try to overcome. That’s just my way of seeing things. 😛 🙂
Bevie, I very much agree with you. As cool as Superman is, I find I prefer my heroes human.
E, YES.YES.YES. To every point (including not jumping over Jo Ruth or Ale below).
How is this character growth for Sam? Or maturity? Since we don’t know why Sam didn’t look we are just to assume it was a mature decision. He could have just not wanted to deal with one more loss, ran and then buried his head in the sand. That’s not maturity. We can’t know if he made a “mature” decision, unless we know the process in making that decision. Given what we know I would say his decision looked anything but mature. Running away from your problems it generally considered adult-like.
Now it is possible that he sat himself down and said I will not make the same mistake I have in the past. I feel myself loosing it so I will get out of the game. But we have no more idea if that is true than we do any other of a dozen explanations. Because we weren’t shown anything.
(I warn you I’m going into total crazy Sam girl mode for a minute)
But Dean has been shown having character growth. At Sam’s expense. This storyline only works if they truly makes sense if they do see Dean as the main character and all the other characters are just to help move him along the path to enlightenment. Accepting all the lesser souls warts and all. The stress being on the lesser. And if that was their goals then it was accomplished. Because Dean has matured and come out looking even better than he did before for accepting poor Sam for what he is. Instead of what he thought he was (and what we thought he was).
And if this is all the rationale we are getting for Sam’s behavior than, it was brought up in the last 2 out of 3 episodes to remind us of unworthy Sam (in addition to mentioning constantly in the first 10 eps and all his past mistakes in SC-some of which weren’t even his). I suppose this could be the maturity coming into to play because he’ll learn how wrong he was to run from his problems. Which he’ll get to overcome in the trials I guessing. Except the only reason he has anything to overcome is because they made him F@CKING NOT LOOK FOR DEAN IN THE FIRST PLACE. Unless they are still trying to punish him for his past deeds, since apparently 180 years of endless torture wasn’t enough.
I’ve never been one to purport the Dean’s always right thing. But at the same time Bobby is mentioning Sam’s bad behavior than Dean is proving he was right in trusting Benny by making him a self-sacrificing hero. And Dean being this amazing brother who is willing to ask friend to die so he can save Sam. And does that reflect anything but badly on Sam, after all he was so wrong for wanting to kill this terrific guy.
And even in TandE, Sam gives a fucking tribute to Dean about how great he is, on top of Dean trying to take on the trials so Sam can have that happy life. And this isn’t the first time Sam has gone on about how AMAZING Dean is (which granted he is) while Sam has been damned with faint praise. Dean said he found faith because Sam believed in him. And Bobby talked about them underestimating him. And Dean kinda said he had faith in Sam in SS, sort of. He said he back his play. Not one real word from Dean or anyone about how amazing Sam is. Other than Souless Sam was a better hunter. But given the context was exactly complimentary.
Like I said, full-on crazy Sam-girl mode here. But seriously are they trying to make Dean the lead and Sam a secondary along with Cas and Benny. Because all the secondary and recurring characters revolve around Dean and have exclusive conversations only with him. And most of the one-offs do as well. I adore Dean but I’m not interested in a show where he’s basically the lead all the characters, including Sam are there to move his character growth along.
I want the story about 2 brothers who love each and would go to hell and back for the other. Not one who is still completely devoted and the other will do anything you know “within reason”.
Sorry crazy Sam-girl rant over. Back to bi-bro.
I am also a bi-bro fan. But I have to be in Sammy side because he always seem to take blame. It is just depressing. Why do the young one will always have to be the one getting the glue after the Jackfruit is eaten. Yes Sam brought apocalypse but he suffered 180 years in hell for it, yet he still gets shit for it.
It is like blame Sam for everything. For eg- cock blocking Destiel, Dean frowning, unicorn not farting rainbow, Benny being male Mary Sue, simply for being tall enough to give other inferiority, having the ridiculous tanned toned muscular body, Cas being denied shotgun, straight guys turning gay, lesbian turning straight, having most awesome hair that flows in 3-D, saving Dean’s ass countless time, praising him, worshiping him, being soulless and working out wearing jeans?, teaching us how
to make bitchface in 100 different ways by still being manly, ditching family for Stanford (yeah preferring higher education over hunting is evil), distrusting a vampire who looks like a pirate, getting emo over being called freak/monster, being an abomination, preferring soccer over being Katnees, getting in face with John(teenage boys never raise a word against there parents), opening his piehole, not cradling Dean in his arms post hell/purgatory, brooding, having penis of doom yadda yadda.
See? How Sam is a horrible in Supernatural. Without him we will have a much better storyline, won’t we? *snorts*
I know this site is filled with mature people with non biased people. But I went to that f**king interview site and ended up being miserable, bitter and cranky. Also I am sleep deprived so pardon me if I don’t make a sane sense here.
I will always love Sam. Now excuse me when I go stuff my face in pillow and curse the existence of anti Sam fandom. :zzz
Guuuuurl! Rant away. I couldn’t agree with you more!
Just for the record, I agree with you, JoRuth. We’ve had TONS of examples of the boys grieving for one another, going all the way down the road and making the worst, most stupid decisions EVER, with gigantic catastrophic consequences. For the world, for themselves, and for the brother each was trying to save (one saves the other from death just to condemn the brother saved for an eternity of the worst torture possible).
Mary committed the same mistake, John too, and Adam and Samuel and Bobby… Bobby made his boys grieve for him twice. They had to make a decision to sacrifice him. Not good at all.
Why would SPN show that AGAIN? We have been watching SPN, we know Sam was devasted. I, personaly, don’t need to see him drinking hard (already seen that), turning into scary terminator Sam (already seen it), suicidal Sam, blind revenge driven Sam, low self esteem, self-destructive Sam (been there, done that, all of them), and I don’t need Sam telling Amelia he is sad. Of course he is!
Should we see all this, all over again, for the 100th time? Sam going crazy and making all kinds of crazy moves to save Dean? From what, exactly? Even if Dean was in Purgatory, no way he was alive there – there was no precedent for that. Even Sam jumping in the hole alive (no body) meant Sam was dead. Sam would have to ressurect Dean. Again.
This Sam, this scenario, I have seen in S03 and S04. What I hadn’t seen yet? One brother FINALLY learning from their repeated mistakes and trying to make a better, healthier, non destructive, choice this time – to grieve like a normal human being, not like a lunatic. And I believe Sam, knowing himself too well, knew he would only be able to do that if he stopped cold turkey – no more hunting, no more real world, no more anything. Dean was dead, and that is it. Trying to make a different scenario in his head would put himself in the same destructive loop as ever, that only brings more death, more grieve, more torture. And Sam is definately through with that.
“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. “
This is character growth and maturity for me, as painful as it is. Accept death and try to move on with your life – and not destroy yourself, the world and everybody else around you, which is selfish – and that this choice doesn’t mean you love the one you lost any less. This is a lesson Sam was trying to live with (successful or not), and one Dean needs to understand and learn himself. It is not easy (far from it), though, I give you that. Death, Bobby, and Dean himself tried to teach this.
[quote]Why would SPN show that AGAIN? We have been watching SPN, we know Sam was devasted. I, personaly, don’t need to see him drinking hard (already seen that), turning into scary terminator Sam (already seen it), suicidal Sam, blind revenge driven Sam, low self esteem, self-destructive Sam (been there, done that, all of them), and I don’t need Sam telling Amelia he is sad. Of course he is!
Should we see all this, all over again, for the 100th time? Sam going crazy and making all kinds of crazy moves to save Dean? From what, exactly? Even if Dean was in Purgatory, no way he was alive there – there was no precedent for that. Even Sam jumping in the hole alive (no body) meant Sam was dead. Sam would have to ressurect Dean. Again.
This Sam, this scenario, I have seen in S03 and S04. What I hadn’t seen yet? One brother FINALLY learning from their repeated mistakes and trying to make a better, healthier, non destructive, choice this time – to grieve like a normal human being, not like a lunatic. And I believe Sam, knowing himself too well, knew he would only be able to do that if he stopped cold turkey – no more hunting, no more real world, no more anything. Dean was dead, and that is it. Trying to make a different scenario in his head would put himself in the same destructive loop as ever, that only brings more death, more grieve, more torture. And Sam is definately through with that.
“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. “
This is character growth and maturity for me, as painful as it is. Accept death and try to move on with your life – and not destroy yourself, the world and everybody else around you, which is selfish – and that this choice doesn’t mean you love the one you lost any less. This is a lesson Sam was trying to live with (successful or not), and one Dean needs to understand and learn himself. It is not easy (far from it), though, I give you that. Death, Bobby, and Dean himself tried to teach this.[/quote]
[Slow Clap] Wow. Yes, yes, and yes. SPOT-ON, Ale, THANK YOU for so eloquently and yet simply explaining this.
THIS is the “maturity” and growth Carver is aiming for: to [a]ccept death and try to move on with your life – [i]and not destroy yourself, the world and everybody else around you, [u][b]which is selfish[/b][/u] [/i]- and that this choice doesn’t mean you love the one you lost any less.
It couldn’t be said better.
It couldn’t be more true.
How can it be mature to run off, not knowing if your brother is dead or not?
X
If Dean had been shot dead in front of Sam, I agree that he should’ve buried his brother and moved on, but Dean simply disappeared.
I think Sam would want to at least investigate his brother’s disappearance first, before counting him as dead.
That’s a sign of maturity, not running off.
X
We could make the same point about Dean too.
Even in Season eight, he is acting’ immaturely’, for he has declared that what he loves best is being with Sam in the Impala hunting.
Carver should turn his hand to Dean as well; get it through his big brother head that to be ‘truly mature’ he must abandon Sam to his destiny.
Dean’s maturity has been shown in his acceptance of the fact that Sam wants a normal life when this is all over.
It’s selfish of Dean to resent Sam and treat him badly over wanting something different, just because it’s not what Dean wants or deems important. We saw Dean let go of that and find acceptance – more than that – we’ve seen him get in Sam’s corner. He wants that normal life for Sam. He wants Sam to get out. That’s maturity.
Sam ran off because his brother disappeared into thin air, he didn’t know where, and it threw Sam into a panic. His “world imploded.” We saw how frazzled Sam was when he hit that dog. You think Sam would normally be that frazzeled over hitting a dog? Sam, who has been trained to deal with high trauma, who has experienced the horrors of Hell? His reaction to hitting the dog was totally out of proportion to the situation. It showed Sam in depths of helplessness and grief. Hitting riot and meeting Amelia stopped him in his tracks, gave him a purpose and order in a world that imploded around him.
The “running off” wasn’t the “mature” part of it – the maturity (and courage!) came in trying to move on and create a life for himself, choosing not to follow a fruitless and/or destructive quest.
The fact is that up to the end of season seven, Sam had accepted his life as a hunter; he had said it more than once, even saying that normal was no longer for him when Dean asked him.
X
The Sam of season eight is an OOC Sam, created solely to meet the needs of Carver’s story-line.
X
Sam doesn’t panic, if anything he is the calmer of the two. The one who thinks things through. Dean is the one who rushes in where angels fear to tread.
X
“His world imploded” But we have to see that to believe it, and we haven’t, not even a peek.
X
As for the dog.
Just when did he hit it; an hour later; a day; a month? What did he do before he met Amelia. How did he live? Where did he live? How did he pass the time?
We should have seen some of this.
X
As for Sam being upset about hitting the dog, I can see that as being perfectly normal for him. He loves dogs as we saw with Bones .
X
As for Amelia helping him to cope; she treated him so badly so I can’t understand what he saw in her in the first place.
After all Sam is a very handsome man, if he wanted female company, he would have had no trouble finding it.
X
I’m afraid I can’t see Sam searching for Dean as a fruitless or distructive quest. I see it as the logical thing to do.
X
We’ll just have to , as they say, disagree on this.
Oh, thank you, Bamboo! I’m glad you liked it. I love reading you posts, too!
Ale, if they didn’t want to travel that same road again. Then they could have had him say he looked but felt himself going down that same dark path and didn’t know what to do, so just ran. I really wouldn’t have taken much to satisfy me, at least, if they done it right at the beginning so that it wasn’t a huge issue this season. But JC chose to make it an issue and then did nothing to resolve it. That is not character growth because we still don’t know WHY Sam didn’t look and apparently we never will.
Wow! Ale – what a great post! Right on girl! (or guy) 🙂
I’m a girl! 😉
And thank you, Beavie!
Shouldn’t Sam have at least given his phone and some info to another hunter that Kevin, the prophet, was taken by Crowley and dangling in the wind? Quit your job, fine, but give someone a heads up. It’s not just about not looking for Dean. What about poor Kevin? As far as I’m concerned, Dean can look out for himself, but Kevin was an 18 year old kid.
You’re right, I think he should have. But who? Garth? Garth vs. Crowley. Doesn’t look promising.
[quote]Should we see all this, all over again, for the 100th time? Sam going crazy and making all kinds of crazy moves to save Dean? [/quote]
Yes… absolutely 100% yes. Without seeing this, there is no story; without seeing this, there is no bond. I WANTED to see this for the 101st time.
Nice post [b]Ale[/b] however that is not how alot in the fandom see it , and it comes down to simple things. Sam didnt look we didnt get alot of Sam thoughts on that very thing what we have got is maturity being used. Dean is hurt that Sam didnt look and people are upset for Dean that he is hurt by this small fact.
Dean in Taxi Driver shows once more how far he will go for Sam . The whole thing is being brought up by Meg then Bobby and now it looks as if the whole angry hurty feelings from Dean will come back up again and Sam still did not look. It is not as simple as maturity and whatever brand of maturity that is being used by Jeremy and the writers to tell Sam’s story I only wish it was .
Sharon, I know a lot of people don’t agree with it. It’s ok for me. I understand Dean being hurt too. I was thinking: try to picture the love of your life suddenly dying a tragic death (hey, no Wincest here! Just an example). You’re devastated but, by some miracle, something happens that makes you take an interest in life again (like Sam and the dog). You try hard to live again and, as time passes, you remarry. Then, as suddenly, the love of your life reappears. It is understandable that this person, seeing you married, start questioning if the other ever loved the one that died. It’s not fair, and this person cannot possible know what the other has been through – some understanding has to happen. And it is not uncommon for the survivor also feel guilty (survivor guilt, as Sam put it).
So, yes, there are a lot of issues and feelings around the boys, as JC said. It is not an easy situation.
Well like I said I enjoyed your post but dont find that we really had enough with Sam to judge anything except he did not look and Dean’s feelings and words neither of which exactly painted Sam in a good way . JC with respect to him has created a situation that does very little for Sam or how he is perceived and I dont believe ‘maturity’ as the justification was worth the price .
The brothers relationship in light of this has been made to look quite one -sided IMO.
Try to imagine the love of your life DISAPPEARING into thin air. You just move on without even trying to look at all? What if it was your child? Would you just assume that this beloved family member was “probably dead” even though there was no evidence to suggest that? It makes no sense to me. Family members will look for their loved ones who’ve vanished until they themselves die; their lives stagnate and they often can’t move on because of how unresolved things are and they never, ever stop looking. I can’t understand Sam’s rationale at all. Dean wasn’t dead and Sam gave no indication as to how he could believe that Dean was dead… so how is it that he was able to move on? Maybe he suspected Dean might be dead, but without a body and with Cas also missing he only knew that Dean was MISSING. Being missing means you look.
I agree with this post so much E!
Had Dean died in the end of S7, it would’ve been a bit more understandable that Sam’d just had enough and caledl it quits (allthough sucks to be Kevin, the teenager :sigh: ), but he didn’t. He vanished. Even Sam asked Crowley where he is, not that is he alive?
So HOW did he come to the conclusion that Dean was dead? Hell, at this point, had he used that “Dean is dead” reasoning to back his play against Dean, Meg and Bobby, it would’ve been tolerable. But then in later ep he just flat out said that he didn’t know where Dean had gone to ([i]could’ve been having a burger in the next town[/i] or something similar. I forget ’cause I haven’t rewatched anything prior LARP)! So you didn’t think he was dead, Sam?! You weren’t sure but you still decided to hit the road and abandon Dean and Kevin to their miserable fates… What?! How can you live with yourself if you don’t even try?
This one decision (or rather it’s piss poor execution!) has made me second guess the very foundation of this show. It has never happened before.
I’m so freaking miserable right now…
[i]”People don’t just disappear, Dean. Other people just stop looking for them. “[/i]
[quote]So HOW did he come to the conclusion that Dean was dead?[/quote]Come on super ,you should know that any question about Sam will be answered in an interview if at all.They don’t have any interest in showing Sam’s plight after Dean went to purgatory on Dick express.
🙁
Wow! I knew the fan backlash was going to be ridiculous and it is. On this website it is all poor Sam doesn’t have a pov (no hate Sam fan here) it’s’ all about Dean and on almost every other website it is all poor Dean doesn’t have a story line or mytharc it’ all about Sam whatever that is supposed to mean. The characters have moved on from the story line of Oct and moved onto MOL, trials, loss of Deans bff Benny (again no hate, love Dean just never warmed up to Benny), Cas and Naomi, what happened to Kevin, what’s up with Metatron and the tablets, etc., etc. There is so much going on right now. Dean has a willing Sam by his side and Sam has the supportive big brother ready to carry him through the trials. What more could we want as fans. The brothers are on board with each other. They are communicating in a way that they really never have before. I also wish that some of the episodes were better written but I think Jared and Jensen can be very proud of the job they have done this year in portraying these characters. I also applaud Jeremy Carver for taking risks and doing a great job. I for one am glad that he brought the brothers together quickly, set up a little drama about it and resolved it . I want this show to go on forever ( I know not possible) but I can’t imagine that the cast and crew would if they knew how all of their hard work was so unsatisfying to their supposed fans.
I am sad for Sam fans today. I completely understand why they are mad and frustrated today. I for one, won’t try and tell them that they can’t feel that way. Many of them have held their tongues and kept their disappointment in check in hopes that something might emerge that will make this better for them. I get it, I do, I was hoping for a reveal or twist and now it appears that things are as they seemed all year. I’m not as hurt by it as some fans but I am disappointed too. I say let them vent.
I hope those that are thinking of quitting the show, reconsider, because I personally like many of these people and would be sad to never interact with them again but I have to respect how they are feeling and see that to some, this is their breaking point. :sigh:
Leah, you are totally the sweetest. Thank you. That actually helps.
I really am still totally hoping that I was completely wrong in every way and that they find a way to make this work so I can go on completely adoring the show. I will happily be completely embarrassed by my overreaction if they make this work.
Thanks Leah!
I’d hate to miss some of these folks, too. But I’m not feeling that I can move away from this at this point. Maybe by September…
Ah Leah you are a kind soul. Thanks for this. Have a Dr. Pepper on me.
I have decided that I am not going to watch the episode on 4/24 (gasp!) I am going to the opera instead where I know I will have a better chance of ending up happy and satisfied with what I see and hear (I’ll be seeing Rigoletto for any other opera fans out there; can’t miss with Verdi!). I’ll catch up with the episode via this website later and hopefully depending on what I read here I may be able to give the ep a dispassionate viewing over the weekend.
[quote]) I am going to the opera instead where I know I will have a better chance of ending up happy and satisfied with what I see and hear (I’ll be seeing Rigoletto for any other opera fans out there; can’t miss with Verdi!). [/quote]
Isn’t Rigoletto a tragedy? 😀
Yes, yes it is. Loads of angst and sacrifice and terrible, terrible sadness. Great fun!
What a really sweet, thoughtful, understanding post, [b]Leah[/b]. Thank you.
Yeah, right now, it feels like this is my breaking point. To say that this interview disappointed me would be an absolutely massive understatement. 😥 All along I’ve had this fervent wish/hope that there was going to be a twist or a reveal to Sam’s story, some emotional insight from Sam that was more than ‘I ran’. Posters here and elsewhere have been coming up with fabulous theories and scenarios regarding Sam that had me quite excited for the final few episodes. Sadly, right now, after reading that interview, my excitement has pretty much evaporated. For me personally, as a Sam fan, this season has been torturous. Many have obviously loved this season, for me it just didn’t work. 🙁
Like others upthread I too will watch till the end of the season and then decide if I’ll be back next year. 🙁 Hopefully the last few episodes will do something to make me, finally, start feeling better about the show again.
You can add my name to the list of fans who were hurt and upset by this interview. It’s not presented in the best way and Zap2it does not have the best reporting. It would be interesting to see the real transcripts and not the sensationalized version. But I think Carver is playing a dangerous game between being defensive/stonewalling and standing his ground. His comments are borderline and I don’t think it just the most vocal part of the fandom that is upset by this interview. Actually, for the first time, I have seen a lot of fans empathize with each other and saying that they understand why other fans are upset as well. While his comments are drowning in someone’s else slant, I do think if the interview had been presented as a questions and answers, these responses would still be stirring the fandom.
For me, this interview is beyond disappointing. Nothing solid on the front for Dean and Sam baffling actions stand. While I don’t think Jeremy Carver said we have to “accept it,” I don’t think he is explaining what he was trying to do with Sam’s story and connecting it what is playing out on screen. I think everyone feels like the story was poorly handled and wished something else had happened, but some fans do understand what is behind it. However, if you aren’t one of those fans, Carver’s comments are going to come off as defensive and hit hard. But you add that to Carver’s lack of mentioning Dean in his response beforehand plus the article being used deliberately to poke at tender issues in the fandom, you have the perfect storm of a PR nightmare.
Carver’s job is pretty much safe for next season and he can do what he wants, but that does not mean that fans’ are no longer important. From what I have seen, there have been few positive reactions to this article. That’s what Zap2it wants, but is that what Supernatural, a show that claims it’s special relationship with the fans to be essential, wants? Sera Gamble had some nastiness thrown her way, but I don’t remember any article about her hurting and angrier fans as much as this one has done for Carver. You have got to give the guy props for upsetting all fractions of the fandom at the same time. I think that’s a first. However, Carver is hitting several parts of the fandom which begs the question, he is just upsetting the vocal fans or has he truly hit a massive proportion of the fandom?
Several Sam fans have been upset all season and Dean fans are questioning Dean’s role. But if Carver knows what “exactly the debate” is fandom, wouldn’t it be wise to either not engage in the debate or give an actual answer to the question? Saying that you aren’t sidelining anyone is not answering the question of “why was Dean shunned in the mytharc.” Heck, that isn’t even a politician answer to the question. Eric Kripke didn’t run into these problems, because he would have answered the question, but he would have taken it a step further and told the audience about Dean’s role-see interviews about “Swan Song” for examples. Sera Gamble would not have taken the question. Robert Singer would have talked about something that we would all be debating about what show he is watching versus the one we are seeing.
The sensationalization of the article makes Carver look like an arrogant ass who cannot admit that he made a mistake with Sam and it also makes Carver look like defensive jerk stonewalling the complaints about Dean. He gives excuses and explanations for why they did what they did, but he doesn’t address the actual complaints in way that makes it seem like he cares about the fans who are making the complaints in the first place. Carver does not have to care about the fans’ opinions, but he cannot have it both ways. If the showrunner and the writers stop caring about what the fans are having trouble with, then Supernatural needs to stop presenting itself as show that respects its fans. The actors and crew still seem to have respect for the fans, but that’s only because actors like Jensen and Jared actually took on these questions. Jensen talked openly about Dean being back in a care taker role and Jared talked openly about Sam’s actions as OCC. Notice how Jensen and Jared’s answers to these questions were not as upsetting or controversial as Carver’s answers. And a large part of that comes from the fact, they answered them without being defensive about it. They didn’t have to stand their ground, because they didn’t turn into a debate. It was a question and response. They showed their authority on the issues by shutting down the possibility for debate, but Carver isn’t showing any authority by playing defensive. He just give another excuse for story line that so many people are having trouble with. There are still several ways it could go. But I do think Carver is crossing a line with the fandom.
I kind of found this interview a bit of a non-interview and it irritated me for that reason. The spoilers you give when you don’t give spoilers, or something. It left me wanting to know more, please…which I suppose is the point…. I also think the original article is titled and structured to get maximum reaction from the passionate fandom that we are. This is when I would totally love the whole interview transcript and not just the sound bites… I don’t believe Carver is purposely destroying the show or the characters. He’s a professional, he’s doing a job, even if we don’t always like where he’s taking what we love or how he comes across in interviews…
Most people who read my stuff, know I don’t have a lot of the problems with this season’s storylines that others have. I feel more connected to Sam and feel more at ease with the brother’s relationship than I have for a very long time. I know many people can’t see that and that’s all good, it’s the nature of the beastie. Reading everyone’s passionate comments on this piece and throughout the season, I totally get the frustration. It’s been bubbling away since halfway through the first episode really. I was thinking there’d be more too and a little surprised we’re being told, ah, nup. With 4 eps, well I guess 3 that are probably relevant to the big picture, I’m still hoping that some of the things that have be causing ongoing disappointed will be addressed. I’ll admit, it doesn’t sound optimistic, but I’ve be surprised by this show more times than I can count, so…fingers crossed. I guess, like everyone, I’ll make my mind up on the whole schbang once the whole schbang has finished playing out. I’m looking forward to seeing what’s in store for us, I always look forward to it no matter how painful (as only a Supernatural fan would).
I don’t even know what I’m rambling about!! I’m just sad at how sad so many of your comments are and I really hope that things can turn around and you feel your show might be able to go back in a direction you can support and make you want to come back and give season 9 a shot. I’d miss everyone’s thoughtful comments if you all up and went away.
I’m with sweetondean, this was just Jeremy Carver tap dancing around answers. I’m going to go back and read his words after the final four episodes of the season air, just like I did after his teasers for the season premiere during our interview at Comic Con. Turns out they make sense in a twisted way. Now, if you agree or disagree with his creative direction, that’s another story, but the vague context usually makes sense because Carver hates giving away spoilers.
Zap2It is a sensationalistic outlet, and a few of their reporters love to stir up crap. Sadly, that’s what creates job security in the media. As long as readers like us eat this controversial stuff up in droves, the more they’ll keep doing it. However, Carina did ask those questions and these were the answers Jeremy Carver gave. I’m sure he knew what he was walking into, and he’ll take the flak for the vocal fandom because that’s what the boss does.
I’m reserving total judgment until I see the final product. The writers see the big picture differently (having a sit down for any length of time with Ben Edlund proves that) and we just have to wait for it all to play out.
I’m also with sweetondean, I’d be lost if you all went away. Let’s ride all this out together!
[quote]I’m with sweetondean, this was just Jeremy Carver tap dancing around answers. I’m going to go back and read his words after the final four episodes of the season air, just like I did after his teasers for the season premiere during our interview at Comic Con. Turns out they make sense in a twisted way. Now, if you agree or disagree with his creative direction, that’s another story, but the vague context usually makes sense because Carver hates giving away spoilers.
Zap2It is a sensationalistic outlet, and a few of their reporters love to stir up crap. Sadly, that’s what creates job security in the media. As long as readers like us eat this controversial stuff up in droves, the more they’ll keep doing it. However, Carina did ask those questions and these were the answers Jeremy Carver gave. I’m sure he knew what he was walking into, and he’ll take the flak for the vocal fandom because that’s what the boss does.
I’m reserving total judgment until I see the final product. The writers see the big picture differently (having a sit down for any length of time with Ben Edlund proves that) and we just have to wait for it all to play out.
I’m also with sweetondean, I’d be lost if you all went away. Let’s ride all this out together![/quote]
Wow… still a lot of passion and anger on Sam not looking for Dean, and Dean playing the role of Sam’s caretaker and chef 😉
Personally, I don’t pay much attention to Jeremy’s interviews/spoilers, at least the way they’re presented by some of the websites such as Zap2It. Other than the over-reliance on flashbacks in the first half of the season (though the Dean/Benny/Cas/Purgatory storyline was excellent), and that awful Sam/Amelia storyline, this has been a very enjoyable season.
I’m with Alice and Sweetondean on this; eager to see how this all plays out over the remainder of the season. I think we’re also in for an A-HAH IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! moment before the end of the season.
IMO, the fact that they keep bringing up the fact that Sam didn’t look for Dean recently tells me we’re going to hear more on that; it’s probably not going to satisfy some of the commenters on this thread, though.
i’m with you…i don’t trust any interview given especially ones by the showrunners. they are always half truths imo. personally i think they purposely tease the fandom…just enough to rile them up which i personally think they get a kick out of, but still keep the fans watching…so they can get answers…
now i got hope out of this interview. but then, i’ve always been a glass half full type…
carver said sam’s rationale was put to bed…ok..sam’s rationale to me seemed to be his belief that his brother was dead….not missing, but dead. i’ve always been ok with that. given everything sam has been through…it makes total sense for sam to conclude dean died .i’ve said it in other posts….sam coming to the conclusion that dean died in the blast makes total sense. he was in the room. he felt the tremor. the whole room vibrated in that blast of dick. dean and cas were so close to dick roman when he blew, there was no reason for sam not to believe that both dean and cas were literally vaporized. and i’ve seen it said that dick dying would mean he would go to purgatory so why wouldn’t sam know that dean would go there….well, if sam believed his brother dead, as he’s said, then why would sam think his brother in purgatory….monsters go to purgatory when they die, not humans. humans go to heaven. and since both sam and dean have been there before, i don’t see why sam wouldn’t know in his heart that dean would be there now….with bobby ….
but sam did instinctively ask “where’s my brother”? a natural reaction by a winchester. crowley told sam that’s what happens when you stand too close…or something like that…followed by you are now truly and utterly alone..,and sam’s face after crowley said that was, imo , one of utter panic. given everything sam has been through it’s not that far a stretch of the imagination to see sam at that moment, reached his emotional limit. that’s the exact impression i got from sam at the end of sotf….
but let’s really consider what carver said. he said sam’s rationale was put to bed…but the actual events were yet to be shown in one form or another…an explanation is coming is what i got from carver…and that’s really all i’ve ever wanted….because i have no doubt that once dean learns what really went down with sam, he’ll lose that resentment. dean will understand that what he imagined sam’s life to be like wasn’t what sam’s life was like at all. dean really hasn’t even asked sam about that night …he has no idea at all what happened…..he only knows what he presumed to have happened….and just because dean perceives a situation to be a certain way, that doesn’t make it the truth….seems the audience is following in dean’s footsteps….
carver has been quite cagey this season if you ask me. a few hints here and there but nothing solid. but then again…hints do indicate that there is something more..isn’t that the very nature of a hint?
there is quite a bit of freaking out at the moment and despair has reached a sky high, but guys, the story isn’t finished yet. carver pretty much told us that we will be getting the backstory regarding sam …no one left on the sidelines…it’s going to be told in one form or another….maybe we’ll see a little something in pacman fever….maybe we’ll get the real scoop in the three part season finale …i’m not sure which eppy we’ll get the truth in but i am confident it’s coming.
who’s to say what the real truth is….carver said sam didn’t look, but he didn’t indicate when that decision to not look was made…was it right away? did sam break immediately? and if that’s the case, then i expect we’ll get to see sam’s state of mind at the time in the coming weeks…and that excites me…
or
did sam make some kind of an attempt? maybe sam started asking questions to demons? what if sam was convinced that dean was indeed dead and then he imploded and ran?
did anyone check carver’s shoes cuz he sure seemed to be doing a lot of dancing around?
carver seems to be trying to make it clear that sam didn’t look. but he also seemed to make it a point in letting us all know that it took a couple of months before sam hit riot and then hooked up with amelia…we’re told sam was living mundane , yet we’re told sam made frequent trips to the cabin…
bobby and meg bringing up sam’s year wasn’t meant to bring up the point yet again that sam was a bad brother…i believe the point was to bring up the point that both meg and bobby questioned sam’s mental state…which i think is very important….
look you guys can sail on the ship of despair all you want. you all make valid points….me, well i’m just here to supply the lifepreserver….
me and a few others are just trying to point out that it ain’t over yet, ….let’s wait and see what happens first…you might be surprised..
then if it sucks…by all means let em have it…. you will all have deserved to tell us optimists “i told you so”
Ah nappi, bless your heart! 🙂 The other side of that coin is that you can tell all the despairing folks “I told you so” if you are right. I hope you are. It all makes so much sense when you lay it out like you do!! You are to be commended for throwing out the lifepreserver over and over. We can all assess or reassess after the finale. I’ve made my peace with it either way.
Hear!Hear!
alice and sweetondean, I really hope I’m completely over reacting. I do know Carina does seemed to try to egg on controversies rather than clear them up. But if she was quoting him correctly, there was such a finality to his statement and very little wiggle room. He did say it was going to be brought up but that the rationale had been put to bed. I just wanted to scream, “BUT THE RATIONALE IS WHAT I HAD A PROBLEM WITH.”
But njspnfan is right, showrunners do like to keep secrets and both of you are right he could have just been trying to dance around the question and what he means by put to bed is not necessarily how I take it. So I’m just going to watch these next episodes and hope it starts to work for me.
sweetondean, I have loved so much of this season. And I adored all the brother moments and that they have almost come close to actual communication on several occasions. 😀 But, for me, this issue just hangs over every episode, especially now when it is being brought up regularly again. But I just kept telling myself they are going to resolve it. There is some sort of reveal or something that will make this all work. But this article pretty much destroyed that. But you’re right this show has manage to surprised me many, many times. So that is what I’ll hold onto.
And thanks to you both for weighing in and trying to give back some hope. I appreciate it.
Hi Alice and sweetondean and KELLY.
I’d [u]love[/u] to be over reacting too, KELLY. Here’s hoping that I am (that we both are) and then we’ll all have a great laugh about it when the season is over. I’d be the happiest fan if that happened.
This just feels really taxing. I’ve enjoyed the season, mostly the latter part but then there’s been that shadow over the season, that one thing niggling at me and darkening my bright spots. I’ve never been this disconnected with Show before. Sure I felt some disconnection with season 7 but mostly just because it felt so unpersonal and depressing overall. The brothers’ stories were so minuscule and empty.
This season they’ve had a story and yet, some important character trait that was there, was always there, is suddenly gone. And I’ve had this shadow over me ever since the season even started! So, it’s been rough. Maybe I should have more faith. It’s all on me if I don’t. And like I said, I’d love to be wrong. I don’t want to be a Negative Nelly about this Show that I’ve loved for many years.
Thank you Alice and sweetondean for being so positive and encouraging. And thank you everyone else too who are trying to make us feel better. It is muchly appreciated!
Super, after reading nappi815 post, I’ve decide to believe he meant that the rationale given was when he said his world imploded and that they are going to go into the fact that he had a total mental collapse in a lot more detail in the upcoming episodes. I figure at worst it puts off being depressed about it until after the season is over and at best I will be completely satisfied and embarrassed by my little meltdown. 😀
OK, I’ll put aside my vitriol as well….and wait and see how things turn out. I am still going to the opera next week though. 😆
Thanks Alice and sweetondean,
I’m willing to hang on to your enthusiasm and positive thinking.
I’m in for the ride to the finale, holding my breath and praying that this all works out in some satisfactory way.
🙂
I have never liked spoilers and if I was running a show I would lie like crazy not to give away my story. I think Carver sounded like he was trying to evade letting anything out at any cost, and I can understand this if there is going to be a big OHHHH moment or cliff hanger for next season. I can’t wait to see what happens, if it is nothing special I will be really let down.
njspnfan
“IMO, the fact that they keep bringing up the fact that Sam didn’t look for Dean recently tells me we’re going to hear more on that; it’s probably not going to satisfy some of the commenters on this thread, though.”
I think it depends upon how it is done. If it’s used to beat Sam up again as it has been all season, then no, I will not be happy. Especially if Sam is not given the chance to reply to Dean as has also been the case all season. If Sam thought Dean was dead why wasn’t he allowed to make that reply to everyone who questioned him? Doesn’t make any sense to me. When someone doesn’t reply to an acusation, it makes them look quilty which is what happened. If he thought Dean was dead why would he feel guilty for getting on with his life?
The show is too one-sided in POV and it shouldn’t be IMO. Both brothers should have one and be able to express their POV.
I don’t get why the writers don’t write Sam’s POV. But I basically blame JC as he’s the one in charge. I think he has some explaining to do with his choice to write Sam so OOC.
The conflict in the first 10 episode felt contrived and not real to me. I found myself wondering what show I was watching. It seemed more like a soap opera than SPN.
I’m in it for the long-haul too, and in fact, I haven’t lost hope that there’s some sort of explanation or (hopefully gasp-inducing) revelation down the road. And even if there isn’t, it’s not going to make me lose my love for this show – though I do understand where many of you are coming from when you write of your frustrations and possible break-up with SPN 😥
I’m with ChrisGranny – if I were a showrunner with a plan in place, I wouldn’t want to give it away either! Sure, Carver could have simply NOT done the interview, but who knows why he decided to do it? Surely not to rile the fans up on purpose??
From my perspective (there’s that word again), if he’s really as spoiler-protective as some claim, what could he have said? Let’s see:
“Don’t worry, there will be an explanation/revelation down the road” — Well, that would certainly ease fears, but then, let’s face it, we’d have the other half of the vocal fandom raising a hue and cry about how this should NOT have been spoiled for them. Yes, even knowing about an impending explanation does qualify as a spoiler for some!!
“No, there’s no explanation or revelation down the road” — From what I read, Carver did NOT say that in the article, rather, McKenzie is the one who paraphrased it: “Carver tells us that while we haven’t heard the last conversation about Sam’s year of living like a civilian, there aren’t going to be any big twists or revelations as to why he made the choice he did. We’ve heard Sam’s reasons, and we’re going to have to accept them”. Until it’s quoted that Carver himself uttered those words, IN QUOTES, I like to think there’s a big chance of these sentences being taken out of context. There’s also the possibility that Carver’s being sneaky and deliberate in his reply: “(Sam’s) stated his reasons, and that’s why he did it.” But maybe while those might be the reasons behind Sam’s actions from SAM’S own perspective, these might not be the same reasons from someone ELSE’s perspective, e.g. a puppet-master/manipulator such as Crowley or Naomi. Hmm!!
“No comment” — well duh, not answering the question with a flat-out “no” is tantamount to admitting something’s coming up, isn’t it?? Sure, he could have chosen to remain silent, but wouldn’t silence also imply secrecy? Depending on who initiated this interview, could Carver have turned down bloggers and reporters? What impression would THAT then have painted? “He’s hiding something!” Or “He doesn’t give a crap.” Why not send someone else to do the dirty work, e.g. Robert Singer? Because Singer would be inundated with the same questions, and who better to take care of it than the man in charge himself?
So I’m asking myself, what else could Carver do? Side-step. Dance around it. Provide an answer that seems firm and no-nonsense to stop the bloggers from digging deeper. And so we have it: “What has been put to bed, in many ways, is Sam’s rationale for why he did what he did.” Yes, SAM’s rationale, not anyone else’s.
And hey, many people here seem to be forgetting the rest of what Carver said in quotes: “I think first and foremost, it’s not put to bed yet. It’s something that will be dealt with in one form or another again. It left an emotional mark on our fans, and I think it’s left an emotional mark on our brothers as well. ” And the final emphatic comment: “It’s still an open wound of sorts. We’ll see that dealt with in ways that we aren’t quite expecting.”
All in all, I think there’s still more to this. I’m hoping there is. But even if there isn’t, hey, it’s not a dealbreaker for me. And while I know everyone responds to this show differently, it’s kinda heartbreaking to know that other people are heartbroken by this.
I am definitely loving the show thru to the end. And like the path of this season. I have even been comfortable with it. I found season four discomforting even while I enjoyed it, if that makes any sense at all. But if anyone had seen my comments at the beginning the fact that I like this season might be clear. I want to see the story unfold. Also, I trust that the folks writing and directing and producing and acting love this show too and will give it the best they have. Which does not happen with all TV at all. I do also think that Jeremy Carver holds spoilers close and there is so much more to expand upon. Sam’s reasoning may have been spoken but how Dean comes to understand it and how Sam is able to articulate what happened that year may deepen. Plus it seems there are surprises to come. I like that. I have been so busy I could not keep up with the conversation here. But I have read much heartfelt sadness and worry. I hope you all stay. What a great community. I so appreciate Alice’s and Sweetondean’s comments too.
JoRuth, I get what you mean about season 4. It’s still, in my opinion, the best season they’ve made, even though it was often terribly painful for me to watch (if [i]that[/i] makes any sense at all, too. 😉 )
It makes so much sense! 🙂
i’d like to add a question…which i hope is ok here…it could tie in with this discussion…i just hope this question doesn’t ruin anyone’s surprise on upcoming eppy….
here’s the thing….and i think it ties in with the explanation i believe we’ll be getting regarding sam’s story….
we’ve been told that the trials are not only having a physical toll on sam, but an emotional one as well. so i started to wonder why…i mean so far he basically just killed a demonic pitbull and saved bobby…the former not really all that emotional…even though sam has a soft spot for dogs…i didn’t get any indication that he was emotionally distressed after killing the hellhound. i can see going back to hell would not be easy on sam…it could affect him emotionally but i didn’t get that it was to the extreme….and he did see bobby and save him, while that was emotional, it seemed more like happy than sad….
so why are these trials hitting sam so hard on an emotional level then? could it be because sam’s emotional state wasn’t so fantastic in the first place? do you think it’s possible that this goes back to what we’ve been saying? that sam most likely broke….reached his emotional limit and possibly ended up in a very bad way…and perhaps he hasn’t fully healed?
if it’s as some of us have perceived, and sam did break but never could admit it to dean, and that he simply buried it, but never actually dealt with it…then perhaps that’s why the trials are hitting him emotionally as well as physically….because his emotional foundation is still cracked….
it’s been my belief that sam didn’t tell dean the truth because he didn’t want to disappoint dean and he didn’t want to seem weak….i also submit that doing the trials are in part sam’s effort to atone to dean, for not being able to save him….
what i’m getting as is this….sam already has a chink in the armor….what if the trials are taking the toll on him not just in a physical way, but spiritually…..emotionally…..his body is getting weaker, but his fragile emotional state is being weakened as well….
that thought just crossed my mind…..
nappi815 – Had posted a similar thought on another thread last week; went back and rewatched 8.01 thru 8.10 (Torned and Frayed) this weekend. I enjoyed the first half of the season but it does seem like a different season when compared with the second half; this was probably intentional on the part of Jeremy Carver.
Sam was OOC/off in his behavior; the look of sheer panic when he thought something had happened to Amelia in Citizen Fang and in the birthday picnic fb (Southern Comfort?), and when he thought Dean was in danger in Blood Brother. But, then again, Dean was also OOC; at times feral, ruthless, befriending a vampire, and his dickish behavior to Sam. Castiel has also been “off” most of the season, being programmed/controlled by Naomi. Bobby even mentioned that both Sam and Dean had gone off the rails while he was gone. The only difference is, we’ve gotten an explanation for Dean and Castiel’s behavior, but not for Sam, at least yet. This all goes back to the theme of perception this year. IMO this will play in to the trials and Sam’s emotional state, and that this will all come out before the end of the season.
amen to that sister….it’s not my intention to freak you out, i’m as harmless as they come….i didnt know where i can ask….so i’ll just take a shot and ask here….per your handle i was wondering if you’re from nj? i’m right next door in ny….since the con is possibly in your neck of the woods…are you going?
anyone here going to the con this friday besides me? 😀
amen to that sister….
it’s not my intention to freak you out, i’m as harmless as they come….i didnt know where i can ask….so i’ll just take a shot and ask here….per your handle i was wondering if you’re from nj? i’m right next door in ny….since the con is possibly in your neck of the woods…are you going?
anyone here going to the con this friday besides me? 😀
percysowner, reading your comment, why did I have the feeling that Sam seems to be the one written for the mytharc and not for character development.
Correct me if I’m wrong but Benny seems to be getting a lot of character development than Sam. We get to see Dean confide in Benny, Benny confide in Dean, Dean confide in Cas, Cas confide in Dean..
BUT when did we see Sam even confide to Amelia??? Sam didn’t even confide in Dean. We see Sam talked to Amelia’s father but he looks all kinds of awkward in that scene. Perhaps Sam’s not the one who talks about a dead loved one so openly. But there has to be some scene when they were eating Pie, when Sam was washing the Impala, When Sam suddenly froze up in the middle of a conversation because Amelia said a trigger word… Those scenes are small and not hard to produce. Sam doesn’t need to say any lines, just gesture and acting is enough.
BUT we get none of those scenes. I wonder what’s wrong with Sam, really. He’s an emotional guy most of the time but during his shiny flashy back with Amelia he looked like he build a barricade against her. Since we didn’t get the scene of Sam really confides to Amelia about Dean then I will take it that HE ACTUALLY DIDN’T. Amelia actually didn’t really know who Dean is because Sam never told her. She didn’t know Dean’s sacrifice for Sam. She didn’t know how much Sam loves his brother because Sam didn’t tell her that much. I’m also willing to bet that She also confused and wondered about the depth of Sam’s hurt but she can’t dwell on it and can’t really help Sam in that area because SHE TOO was dealing with her own hurt.
It makes me think that Sam and Amelia can’t really help each other other than just distracting each other from dealing with their own problem. Two gravely injured people can’t heal each other because they will be to occupied with their own hurt.
That concludes that Sam’s year off hunting is not healing him AT ALL. Sam didn’t even face his problem. He just shoved it under a rug until Dean got back. During his year off he was not maturing at all. His emotion is stagnant not having any progression because he can’t confide even to her. Why do I say that? because i will not believe that Sam even did confide to Amelia when we’re not shown the scene.
I agree with Alice and SweetonDean when they say that before we can really make any determinations, fully and truly, we have to see where this season ends up.
Personally, that interview had a great deal of non-information in my opinion and I’m just eager to see where season eight will leave us at this point. I’ve been happy with the season overall – I’m happy with the state of the boys relationship currently, the Man of Letters storyline as well as the bunker that came with it were wonderful additions in my humble opinion and added a great new energy to a long running show.
Regarding the year while Sam was with Amelia: personally I don’t like Amelia – there has been nothing endearing about her character shown, kindness to animals aside: she’s kind of snotty and cheats on her husband is what I know thus far. We haven’t seen a whole lot of how the relationship between her and Sam grew so I don’t know what he disclosed regarding his loss of Dean (not the supernatural elements per say but the loss of his brother and the effect overall) or how she helped him over come that etc. I dispute the idea that she was in anyway a “unicorn” – but that is neither here nor there for me at this point. Why didn’t Sam look for Dean? Yes, another honest, calm discussion about it between them would be good. I’m willing to see where time takes us on this issue. And in all honesty – if the issue is put to bed, their relationship is strong as ever right now so I’m okay with that too.
As to the myth arc and Dean’s role – well, only one brother could do the trials and the other was always going to be the supporting, strength role. I’m not unhappy with either brother’s role so far.
Honestly, we only have four episodes left until we’ll be driving ourselves mad analyzing and speculating into the middles days of September – so let’s go and see what those crazy writers have in store for us in the meantime!