Some Exciting News For Misha Collins and Supernatural Season Nine
Per an article on Zap2It, the CW is confirming some very exciting news for fan favorite Misha Collins. He’s going to be a series regular in season nine! Misha hasn’t been a series regular since season six, after being a recurring character in season four and a series regular in season five. He was bumped to a recurring character in season seven due to creative decisions, only appearing in a handful of episodes that season, before becoming more prominent in the storyline in season eight but still retaining his recurring status. For the average fan, this means that Misha’s name will be listed along with Jared and Jensen’s during the credits roll, rather than being listed as a guest star. Hey, that’s pretty exciting to me. As for Misha, it means job security and more money!
On top of that bit of good news, Misha will also be directing an episode! He does have producing credit for Divine: The Series, which was the web series created by Ivan Hayden, and a Director’s credit for the film short, Stranger Danger, which was quite hiliarious even in it’s dark context, but this will be his first directing credit with a major television series.
That makes him the second cast member to direct. As most of you know, Jensen has directed an episode the last three seasons. There’s been some speculation that Jensen might pass on directing early next season given the fact that he will be a new Dad right around the beginning of the season, but there’s been no official confirmation on that.
Here’s the link to the article, but I’ll warn, Misha does answer a question about Castiel and Naomi in season 8. It’s not very spoilery, but just in case you don’t like reading anything remotely preview-ish.
i am bowing out of season 9-i went thru season 5 with the angel arc-with the angel being all powerful and making the brothers look like impetent idiots. not going to do it again. This season will be my last. actually the benny episode this season will be my last.
I don’t feel anything like as negative as that but I do understand the feeling. I’m refraining from giving full reign to my own thoughts about the news, but suffice to say I don’t especially miss Cas when he’s not around and I felt the demise of god-Cas was a fitting end to his story arc. Really, he hasn’t had anything to do, except pop up when the writers had gotten themselves into a hole, for ages.
Good news for Misha! I can only hope they find something for Cas to do.
I’ll wait and see how the character is handled. Sam tended to become pretty wallpaper when Cas was around. Cas only talked to Dean for the most part and if Sam was, say, going insane due to Cage memories, the insanity didn’t get displayed until Cas could show the true effect. I have been unhappy with the non-existent exploration of Sam this year (my opinion only) and I’m fairly certain that with Cas on board that Sam’s story has the chance of becoming less than it is already. But I could be wrong.
I agree with u. But I will just wait and see.
I think there is some possibility that Cas will be non-angel for at least part of Season 9. Despite what Dean said, being human doesn’t make him a ‘baby in a trenchcoat’ Castiel is a warrior and a good fighter (Point of No Return). He could be approximately human and be an asset to the guys. His storyline could be about learning to be human … yeah, it is a bit far down the road for that but it COULD work.
Either that or (and don’t hate me) there could be parallel Castiel / Winchester stories, basically like the spinoff requesters were looking for … (ok, never mind, bad idea)
Better yet have the Benny and Castiel show – they were actually funny together.
Ok, shutting-up now.
I agree that Castiel’s powers will be taken away or diminished in some way to avoid that “quick fix”. I am thinking that when he returns he may already be altered. Which virtually insures that won’t be the case. I should never speculate but I always do 🙂
I always enjoy it when Cas attempts to assimilate as a human. Never quite gets it right but so very entertaining.
I enjoyed it in season five. However, once Balthazar adapted with no problems and no little misunderstandings, I became annoyed that Castiel, who had been on earth longer than Balthazar, couldn’t connect while every other angel didn’t have a problem. Even baby Samandriel was fitting in just fine.
If Cas is going to be a character, I hope he is more than comic relief. He’s been on earth in various forms for several years. Heck, when Cas had amnesia and was healing people, he seemed to know all the slang and acted like a normal human being. Having the other angels understand vernacular and how the world works while Cas doesn’t makes him seem not very bright, IMHO.
Yeah you are probably right. I rationalized it by seeing Cas as a warrior for so long that he didn’t get to observe human nature that much. He has been around awhile and has made improvements in slang and other human traits. I thought amnesaic Cas was not that dissimilar. The personalities of the angels are pretty diverse and I see Cas as naive more than dim but I do enjoy it, even if it defies logic 🙂
Actually you see him the way I do, Leah. Cas has been a soldier so long that he has always been working and fighting so he hasn’t had the time to assimilate. Perhaps Balthazar has been on earth longer, or understands humans better or any number of possibilities.
I wonder are all the angels the same age? Maybe Balthazar is much younger than Castiel? (I think younger because Cas seemed to be his superior maybe?)
Percy I don’t really see Cas as comic relief – I agree I hope they don’t go there too much. I think it is sweet when he doesn’t get stuff but really his character is quite similar to Dean’s at times when it comes to funny things happening to him.
For me Charlie and Garth are characters that need to become more grounded as real people if they are gong to stay around for long because currently a lot of what they do is played for laughs.
Overall, I am thrilled with this news! I like Castiel’s character. I think he adds a great deal to the show and the storylines. I enjoy watching episodes that he is in.
It also further suggests that next year will focus a great deal of time on angels and/or the angel tablet. May be interesting…
I am happy for Misha. He has earned this. He has great chemistry with J2 and is a fabulous actor.
I also strongly support any organization that rewards its people by “promoting from within”. They are basically giving Misha an opportunity to advance his directorial skills. Plus they are giving him additional job security and pay by making him a regular character. Again, I think he has earned this by being available to the show however they have needed him for the past several seasons.
I also support this move because it MAY be motivated by needing to give J2, but especially Jensen, a little less screen time for a few episodes. I have been worried about Jared and Jensen seriously burning out, given that they have 16 hour days and are both starting new families. Anything that helps them balance their lives better keeps them around longer!
I will, however, agree with Percysowner that I have a very small trepidation about Castiel being written as equal to Sam’s relationship with Dean. I have no problem with Cas being the best friend, the brother-in-arms if you will, but please writers, don’t take aways from the true brotherly relationship . Respect the real bromance, and I am fully on-board!
I agree with all of this, nightsky, and I share the reservations about Sam’s character or storyline being diminished in any way. I am onboard with them sharing the load if J&J can get some time off and spend some time with their families. With these two actors that is going to be important, I think. As long as the focus remains primarily on Sam and Dean.
I agree the brother relationship must continue to remain central in the story.
I’ll reserve judgement till the storyline evolves; I’m a fan of Cas but his arc wore VERY thin in S6/S7. It’s been better this year but the problem with having him as an angel who can fix things with a wave of the hand, and having to rein in that power, is a problem that the writers/showrunner(s) have struggled with in the past.
I do not know if I am happy about this? why do I see how this show now is unfair to me ? Oh I know why now dean has cas and benny and sam has NO ONE! Wow that is just sad and I am getting really sick of it.
Sam has Cas to, even if its to a lesser degree than Dean … maybe they’ll change that!
I hope so too.
Oh such exciting news! I love Castiel…and I love how his character connects to both Sam and Dean.
Totally excited about this and, I agree, he’ll probably somehow have diminished or no powers just so he isn’t a quick fix. Maybe he’ll bond more with both of them (Sam more than he already has) and it won’t affect Sam in any bad way. I don’t think they’d do that and he’s been a series regular before so he deserves to share the screen time with the boys. I’m sure he won’t be in every episode either, like before, so there will be plenty of just Sam and Dean to go around, as there should be. I’m just happy that all three of my boys, no matter what circumstance they find themselves in, will be back next season! J2 was already a no-brainier but was worried Cas might not make it to the end of the season!
Wow, didn’t expect all the negativity. I think it’s awesome. I absolutely adore Misha and love the character of Cas. I’m really interested to see his views as a director as well. His character and the angel mythology really gave the show a new breath of life in season 4 and his chemistry with J & J has been great to watch.
Come on fandom, where’s all the love?
I’m with ya and I know a bunch of people who don’t post here that are all super-psyched! I love Sam and Dean, but Team FreeWill is so close it’s almost tied!
I think it awesome too but for me why can dean have 2 friend outside of sam and sam can not or they all get killed by dean how fair do you think that is? to me its sad and I do love cas and I have forgiving him for doing what he did to sam. I do not know maybe its good or not wait and see.
It would be nice for Sam to get a friend but I don’t think that is in the works for him. He will likely remain friendless for the remainder of the show.
Sadly, I agree.
and that is what sucks about this show and it makes me mad.
I would really prefer he simply become better friends with Cas. They really do have a lot in common and I’m always been surprised that this relationship hasn’t been mined more fully.
The last few days has been hardly anything
BUT negativity on the site. So very depressing!
Come on you people who love the show. I believe the negativity is no more than 2% of the fans here, we just don’t hear from the positive ones so much. Much easier to gripe and complain than give praise or show enjoyment.
I’m so damn grateful this show is still on the air and I can’t understand why these moaners still watch a show they obviously care nothing about anymore. If I don’t care for a show i don’t go to its site and bore other posters.
There is legitimate criticism and then there is fan-wanking which isn’t pleasant at all to read over and over and over.
Congrats to Misha for getting a chance to direct.
Thanks to Jensen and Jared for always giving their very best for us.
And congratulations to Jensen and Danneel on the soon to be little Ackles girl who will be the apple of her daddy’s eye!
Alice, you have permission (as if you needed it! LOL) to ban my post if I have insulted anyone in particular.
Bevie, I completely agree with you. I’m thrilled for Castiel and Misha.
I’m one that hated last week episode, much like Alice. That was a first for me, because I have a very, very short list of episodes I didn’t like and even in those I usually find something I like, and NONE I hated. But not in MBFWB. I don’t know exactly why – the story was awful, the dialogues felt forced to me, even the brothers’ ones… everything, in short, was terrible.
Maybe I’m not fair because I have very high standards for this show. And only this show. All others are just entertainment and in many I lose interest fast. Therefore, I do not expect this kind of lazyness in SPN. I blame the writers – they are usually so great!
But my point is, since I disliked so much the episode on a personal level, I refrained myself from writting about it, because I didn’t have anything constructive to say except that it sucked to me. I stated my position a couple of times in the ‘let’s discuss it’ thread and in this post, but I didn’t repeat it over and over in order not to be annoying to the people who liked it. I just kind of accepted the episode existed and I’m willing to move on fast fast from it because I still LOVE this show and Season 08 and I don’t want to contaminate my enjoyment of this show as a whole because of that episode.
In conclusion, I agree everyone has the right to dislike something and state that with no half words, but repeated negativity over a show that you still watch and nobody can understand why you still do, can be very annoying for people who still like it and want to read constructive criticism and be part of a good debate. Specially if you are being negative for something that didn’t even happen yet.
We can’t all love the same things it is impossible. I like Misha but I am not the biggest Castiel fan so this news doesnt get me jumping . But I suppose it all depends on where the story goes?.
I’ve never been much of a fan of the angels and the angel storylines so this news doesn’t get me jumping either. But, who knows…S9 might be the year to change my mind about the angels. 😆
I’m with you Nuke333, I’m surprised at all the negativity. I like the character of Castiel, and I love the angel storyline, so I’m looking forward to season nine and what the writers have in store for us. I’m assuming Jeremy Carver must already have something in mind for Misha Collins for him to come back as a regular cast member. I’m really happy for him, and I’m sure Jared & Jensen are tickled pink to have him back full time. It takes some of the pressure off their shoulders. When a show sits squarely on your shoulders like that, it is a tremendous amount of work and some very long hours. I know they get a lot of time off and probably earn a pretty good salary, but it can’t be easy for them being away from their families so much. 🙂
I hate the angels and Cas in particular. He ruined seasons 4-7 for me. And season 5 Cas was the worst character the show has ever had for me. Season 5 was absolutely the worst season for me except for a few episodes and I lay it all at the angel’s door.
So as far as I’m concerned RIP Supernatural. Doubt I will watch season 9.
Just to add, it really ticks me off that we are finally returning the show to being about the brothers than we get this depressing news. So once again the brothers will be side characters in their own show. Just as they were in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7. This is especially bad news for Sam fans as it means he will once again be wallpaper so that Dean and Cas can be BFF’s.
I fear that could be true thats what I fear the most and if they do that I am done too lets hope it does not come to that.
This bothers me too. Honestly, I don’t care if J2 are tired and don’t want to carry the show anymore. Sorry. You chose to be on a 2-lead show, and it really only works well, IMO, when you both are in most of the scenes.
I didn’t hate the dog/witch episode, but it wasn’t as good as the previous three b/c Sam and Dean were missing from large parts of the episode. I thought the show finally understood (with the increase in ratings) that most of the audience wants to see the brothers. I’m not saying they have to be the only people on the show, but most of the scenes should be w/them. I don’t even dislike Castiel, but I watch for Sam & Dean.
I guess I have to see how it plays out but I hope J2 don’t become guest stars on their own show! To me, those have been the most boring episodes (i.e., TTM, Bitten, MBFWB).
lala2, I really do care if the boys get burned out. I’ve seen that happen on many long running shows and it gets to where you feel the actors have completely lost interest, even if they try not to. Yes they signed up to be on a 2-lead show-8 years ago. They were young and didn’t have families. I would prefer a few episodes a year like Bitten (and I didn’t even like that episode) and have the guys fully invested. Than have 2 actors phoning it in.
If I had my wish for the show, I would have episodes like Bitten or tMWWBK or WaB, once a year. And then every once in a while maybe have a Sam focused episode and then Dean focused episode. And then maybe add more Dean and Cas as well as Sam and Cas scene that add more to the individual relationships as well as the brothers’ relationship. And more phone scenes, like in Plucky’s, because this gives them time off, but keeps them on screen together. If this stuff was done well, I think it could give the guys more time with their families, but not really hurt the show.
I just want Jensen and Jared to continue to stay fully invested in the show. And I know they make a lot of money, but they also give a lot more back to their fans then most stars do. And if something like this could keep them fresh and pumped up for the show, I wouldn’t mind at all, especially if it were done well.
Absolutely agree! All three have wives and kids (one on the way but still) and if Misha being back as a regular means that they will all have some more down time and be fresh when they’re on camera I’m all for it. They aren’t machines!
Honestly, I think the show has seen its glory days. Those days are gone, IMO. To me, the show is in survival mode since there seems to be no intention on letting it go out on a high. The episodes ATGB, EHH, and the one immediately after (can’t remember episode titles anymore) captured what best makes the show work. The Winchesters were front and center, and the story was about them. That’s what makes the show work best IMO.
I understand J2 don’t want to carry the show anymore but I do think accommodating their demands/wishes does a great disservice to the show. I like Castiel but I must say an episode like TTM did bore me. At one point, Sam and Dean were just “gone” from the episode. I remember thinking, “Where did Sam and Dean go?” I liked TMWWBK though. It was set up as an episode to explain Cas’s actions, which was fine with me. I hate that Sam didn’t get a similar episode in S4 when his actions really needed some explanation or even now re: his decision to not look for Dean but what ate you going to do?
The writers need to strike the right balance, and I truly believe J2 need to be in most of the scenes. “Bitten” was the worst episode of Supernatural that I’ve ever seen. I couldn’t have cared less about any of those characters. Sam and Dean were barely in the episode. I fear that Carver will have episodes completely focused on Castiel, Garth, Benny or whomever so J2 don’t have to be featured much if at all. That’s a mistake IMO. I’m not sure if Carver is capable of doing this well if “Bitten” is anything to go by.
For me, the show has definitely lost some of its appeal. That old feeling was recaptured in the three episodes I mentioned but I have no faith it will last for two more seasons.
[quote]
I understand J2 don’t want to carry the show anymore but I do think accommodating their demands/wishes does a great disservice to the show. I like Castiel but I must say an episode like TTM did bore me. At one point, Sam and Dean were just “gone” from the episode. I remember thinking, “Where did Sam and Dean go?” I liked TMWWBK though. It was set up as an episode to explain Cas’s actions, which was fine with me. I hate that Sam didn’t get a similar episode in S4 when his actions really needed some explanation or even now re: his decision to not look for Dean but what ate you going to do? [/quote]
Which episode is TTM? I loved TMWWBK, I would definitely like to get more in Sam’s head this season. I didn’t miss it as much in S4, IKWYDLS was good enough, but I wouldn’t have minded more definitely.
[quote]
The writers need to strike the right balance, and I truly believe J2 need to be in most of the scenes. “Bitten” was the worst episode of Supernatural that I’ve ever seen. I couldn’t have cared less about any of those characters. Sam and Dean were barely in the episode. I fear that Carver will have episodes completely focused on Castiel, Garth, Benny or whomever so J2 don’t have to be featured much if at all. That’s a mistake IMO. I’m not sure if Carver is capable of doing this well if “Bitten” is anything to go by.
[/quote] I didn’t like Bitten either, but it wasn’t the lack of J2’s that was the biggest problem for me. It was the fact that I didn’t care about the characters either. But I loved Charlie and that episode was mainly about a new character with little but great bits of Dean and Sam thrown in.
While I agree Sam and Dean need to be the focus of the overall show all the time and most individual episodes, I was trying to say I think there are ways that could be creatively done and still give J and J some more time off. Like Time After Time and Plucky’s, I thought both were great, but they gave the boys extra downtime because they weren’t together a good portion of the scenes. But I liked the scenes they were together.
Now I loves me some brother moments so I wouldn’t want that every episode, but I just think they could find a way to have both.
[quote]Which episode is TTM? [/quote]
The Third Man it had the chopped up staff of Moses, introduced Balthazar (I liked Balthazar) and we found out angels can buy souls and that souls have worth.
Although I personally don’t believe IKWYDLS gave us enough of an insight into Sam’s state of mind (I thought it was all about making Ruby look good), I’m glad you did. I do think Sam needed far more exploration in season four than he got. But that’s just me.
Oh, I can see how it wasn’t enough for everyone and would have like seen more, but I did feel as if I had a good indication of what was going on inside his head. Not so much this season.
[quote]Which episode is TTM? I loved TMWWBK, I would definitely like to get more in Sam’s head this season. I didn’t miss it as much in S4, IKWYDLS was good enough, but I wouldn’t have minded more definitely.[/quote]
TTM = “The Third Man” / I think it was the third episode in S6. I didn’t hate that episode, but I do recall my mind drifting a bit when Sam and Dean just “disappeared” from the episode. Haha! I distinctly remember thinking, “Where did Sam and Dean go? What is Castiel talking about? Why do I care? Are Sam and Dean coming back?” It’s not like they were knocked out or anything IIRC. They just weren’t there.
I’m actually a huge fan of the actor who played Balthazar and of Balthazar himself. I hate that he was killed. I also loved Uriel and the actor playing Uriel. Sorry for the random thought.
It’s just that that part of the episode was odd to me b/c Sam and Dean were completely missing for a good 10 minutes or so w/no real explanation.
What’s funny is I had no problem w/IKWYDLS during S4. I didn’t really like that episode or H&H (except for the first and last 5 minutes and Uriel’s talk w/Dean), but for the most part, I loved S4 and had no complaints re: Sam’s POV during that season. It was [i]after[/i] S4, during S5, that I began to notice that Sam had very little POV. I kept waiting for Sam to talk about his decisions the prior year or see him behave differently b/c of his choices. I was waiting for some impact on Sam b/c of S4, but it didn’t really play out that way. Sam was fine, and then one day, he says he’s angry all the time. When? Why? What’s the story? That’s the season when I climbed on board w/those who say the show seriously lacks Sam’s POV.
To think they had a main character going off the rails w/no explanation or exploration is crazy. As Percy said, I needed much more exploration of Sam in S4. I thought TMWWBK did a great job at explaining why Castiel did the things he did. Sam deserved such an episode. To this day, I still have no real idea why he even talked to Ruby again after she lied to him for a whole year. That part of the story never made much sense to me even considering his depression.
[quote] I didn’t like Bitten either, but it wasn’t the lack of J2’s that was the biggest problem for me. It was the fact that I didn’t care about the characters either. But I loved Charlie and that episode was mainly about a new character with little but great bits of Dean and Sam thrown in.[/quote]
I’m not a Charlie fan. I’ve never re-watched the Dragon Tattoo episode, and I didn’t care much for LARP. The last minute or so was the best part of the episode. I do like Garth though, and Kevin has grown on me this year. I didn’t care about him last year, but I like him this year.
[quote]While I agree Sam and Dean need to be the focus of the overall show all the time and most individual episodes, I was trying to say I think there are ways that could be creatively done and still give J and J some more time off. Like Time After Time and Plucky’s, I thought both were great, but they gave the boys extra downtime because they weren’t together a good portion of the scenes. But I liked the scenes they were together.
Now I loves me some brother moments so I wouldn’t want that every episode, but I just think they could find a way to have both.[/quote]
I hear you. I don’t have an opinion re: TAT. I only watched it the one time it aired but I thought Plucky’s was a good episode. It didn’t feel like the brothers were guest stars in that one.
I just want the boys – for the most part -front and center in the episode. If they do “disappear” from an episode, please let there be a reason for it (i.e., got knocked out, got stuck somewhere). I don’t want them gone b/c we’re now focusing on side characters.
I know some will consider this blasphemy but I’ve never re-watched WAB. I actually have no desire to see that episode again, and I loved Bobby’s interactions w/Jodi, Rufus, and that neighbor. It was a fine episode but it’s not one of my favorites. And I’m not a huge fan of DD (ducking the tomatoes). I didn’t think the mid-season finale should have been focused on a side character (again, ducking the tomatoes), esp. when a main character’s story had been irrationally halted for some reason (i.e., Sam). I was beyond frustrated w/the crappy storytelling for Sam at that point of the season.
That said, I don’t think Bobby should have been killed. If they were going for soap opera, put him in a coma! There was no need to kill off Bobby.
To everyone who is surprised about the negativity: I’ve been to several websites that published this news, and no page had so much negativity in comments as this one does. Cas’ return was warmly welcomed everywhere. I guess this is the den where all the anti-cas fans gather, or so I picture it.
Can’t wait to see the episode that Misha directs! 🙂
I do admit I’m a little surprised about the negative comments, but we do allow all opinions here. For the record, the three admins at this site (especially myself) couldn’t be more thrilled with this news. We love Misha and we are a very pro Misha/Castiel site. I don’t think you’re seeing the majority opinion here.
[quote]I do admit I’m a little surprised about the negative comments, but we do allow all opinions here. For the record, the three admins at this site (especially myself) couldn’t be more thrilled with this news. We love Misha and we are a very pro Misha/Castiel site. I don’t think you’re seeing the majority opinion here.[/quote]
Alice,
I don’t take all of the comments as negative; personally, I thought that the Cas story line/angel arc had run its course and was wearing very thin last year; just a little worried how they are going to integrate him as a regular back in to the show. The whole omnipotent angel thing has created problems for the writers in the past. That being said, I like Cas (go Team Freewill) and Jeremy Carver has done an outstanding job of breathing new life in to the show this year so I’m cautiously optimistic that everything will work out okay.
me to happy but I do not want to see sam push aside from dean and cas thats is what I fear the most.
Thank you Alice!
Thank you for your reviews. I may not love the ones you love or hate the ones you hate, but you never never fan-wank! and neither do your other admins. So grateful for that!
It just gets so depressing to see post after post of fan-wank and negativity to everything that gets announced. So often it is the same ones replying back and forth to each other. It gets so you recognize them and try your best to skip over the more blatant fan-wanks. The Dean versus Sam stuff and the Cas hate and Dean POV and Sam POV and Sam has no friends and Dean has no story and everything is about Dean and Sam dominates the series and Dean is merely a chauffeur and on and on and on.
This stuff drove me away from TWoP years ago and this was a safe haven for enjoyment and legitimate criticisms. I so hope it isn’t going that way too.
And no, that is NOT the majority opinion. Just look at the polls you run. The happy viewers are not so inclined to be posting over and over the same things.
[quote]Thank you Alice!
Thank you for your reviews. I may not love the ones you love or hate the ones you hate, but you never never fan-wank! and neither do your other admins. So grateful for that!
It just gets so depressing to see post after post of fan-wank and negativity to everything that gets announced. So often it is the same ones replying back and forth to each other. It gets so you recognize them and try your best to skip over the more blatant fan-wanks. The Dean versus Sam stuff and the Cas hate and Dean POV and Sam POV and Sam has no friends and Dean has no story and everything is about Dean and Sam dominates the series and Dean is merely a chauffeur and on and on and on.
This stuff drove me away from TWoP years ago and this was a safe haven for enjoyment and legitimate criticisms. I so hope it isn’t going that way too.
And no, that is NOT the majority opinion. Just look at the polls you run. The happy viewers are not so inclined to be posting over and over the same things.[/quote]
With all due respect nobody claimed it was the majority view but it is their view as you have yours. I am sorry you got driven from the TWOP so did I but why should people claim to like a announcement or at least have reservations about it so as not to rock the boat when they dont really feel that way .
Unfortunately unless Alice puts up a specific requirement that everybody with the same opinion are the only ones allowed to post then diverse opinions will happen and yes even if they seem like repeats because people might feel that strongly about it.
As I have stated I have never really been a Castiel fan so this doesnt do very much for me but neither do I hate him or dislike him enough to stop watching just never really took to him it happens.
Hi Bevie – it’s terribly addictive that’s why 😀
I agree though that the repetition over the past few days (to which I have contributed so I can’t talk – but I am done now, promise, unless someone says something to set me off again) does seem to be endless…
Anyway you might appreciate this:
[img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png[/img]
EDIT: I am making fun of myself here, not anyone else, just FYI.
OMG eilf, that is so funny and true!
I love that cartoon 😉
My niece showed me this around Christmas. I laughed so hard.
Ha, thanks Eilf, that’s a great cartoon! 😆 I’m with Bevie, I stay clear of the too heated discussions, but mostly I read everything, even the negative stuff. I respect people’s opinions, it’s the “fan-wank” (sorry Bevie, stealing that one from you 😉 ) that I shy from.
It does gets pretty intense sometimes, agreed, especially when I love Sam, Dean and Cas and I don’t get the need to bash any of them. They all have their ups and downs and some episodes focus on one more than the others but that seems normal to me, especially with three to juggle. I would think Cas will probably just be half the episodes like he was before so if he’s more prominent in a few of those then that’s cool.
I’ve liked what Carver has done so far (much more than what Gamble did) and am interested to see where the story takes the boys and angel … I’m sure it’ll be a roller coaster ride that I’ll want to get back on!
Trust me . . . there are sites where his status as a regular is not warmly welcomed. It’s not just here.
I like Castiel, but they don’t always use the character well, IMO, which can be a problem.
I for one am not anti-Cas or Misha. I loved the angels when they first appeared and I coped as it became clear they were mostly a bunch of a-holes. I was relieved when Cas was back at the end of S5. I never felt that Cas got “between” the boys or shunted Sam out.
But there has been water under the bridge since then including Cas’s appalling treatment of Sam and his wanting to, well, take over as God. Those two things are really what changed my feelings about him and as yet nothing has happened to make me change my mind. He was brought back to solve the problem of Sam’s insanity and if his first ending wasn’t good enough that would have been a noble second ‘death’. Then we found out that was a bit of a false ending because he comes back [i]again[/i] and although damaged apparently isn’t suffering all that much (certainly nothing like poor old Sam). And then suddenly this season he is restored [i]again[/i]. Now, I am happy to wait and see how this story pans out but they can’t just keep bringing Cas back randomly to make his fans happy. They have to really rescue him as a character and give him a place in the SPN world while at the same time not relegating one of the boys (probably Sam). That is a tricky path to tread and frankly I don’t know whether the current batch of writers has the discretion to achieve it (as much as I think they are wonderful).
So I’m happy to wait and see, but I am nervous.
You have summed up my greatest concerns with Castiel. His bad actions have been glossed over, IMHO. The audience is still being reminded that Sam betrayed Dean with Ruby and released Lucifer, even though he had NO idea at the time that he would release Lucifer. Castiel intentionally opened Purgatory and broke Sam as a tactic toward that end. Dean still talks about his resentment toward Sam for his past, but has not mentioned Castiel’s actions. To me this is a clear indication that the writers WANT us to continue to see Sam in a bad light, while glossing over anything bad Castiel has done.
The handling of Sam and Cas this season has also been diametrically opposed. We are told Sam didn’t look for Dean, abandoned Kevin and given no context for his actions leaving him open to much criticism. We are shown Cas being manipulated by Naomi, so that any action he takes against the brothers or any damage he does is completely excused and out of his control. I find this writing to be horribly skewed and intentionally setting up Sam=Bad, Cas=Good with a helping of Dean should dump Sam. This does not make me feel in any way optimistic about Cas playing a larger role next season. I lived through Sam=Bad, Cas=Good for seasons four and five. I am not up to a repeat and that is what I see coming with this announcement.
so true and I for one is getting sick of it.
Yes, exactly what I see happening which is why I am so mad and depressed by this.
For me JC is a much worse show-runner than Gamble ever was because of his treatment of Sam. And it sounds like it is just going to get worse from here.
I completely agree with your comment.
And I’m fine with Cas coming back, as long as the writers develop the relationship between Sam and Cas. Many talk about Team Free Will, but it’s not a team if Sam and Cas hardly ever talk.
So it’s wait and see for me too.
I know doubt it has been warmly welcomed particularly in some quarters however we cannot all feel the same . I have never overly been a Cas fan so I cant be a hypocrite and pretend I am now .
If others are good for them this news will excite them 🙂
I’m thrilled about this. It’s going to make all the difference to me coming back to the show after the hiatus, since I’ve been pretty disappointed about the regression of Dean back to Sam-above-all-else in the last few episodes. He needs someone who isn’t Sam and this show needs Misha to liven up the horribly flat onscreen sibling relationship. This is the best news I’ve had about the show since Misha was written out.
I’ll admit to being a little torn. I think Cas is a great character and love Misha, but I have some concerns. I glanced at some of the comments and some of mine are the same. I don’t want him to become a quick fix to everything (but they’ve usually been pretty careful about that). But while I don’t think Sam becomes wallpaper with Cas around, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we began to lose a lot of Sam POV when he became more prominent.
Sam and Dean exchanging thoughts and feelings were often replaced with Dean and Cas exchanges. Something that was even the case earlier this year. If he is to become a regular then they need to guard against this becoming a regular occurrence. But he needs to have interactions with Sam when Dean is not around. This would solve a couple problems. Sam’s POV only coming through Dean, so when they are fighting or hiding things he has none. But also it would keep Sam from being so isolated.
They started doing that a little this year, which I really liked. If they continue on the trend of having Sam and Cas become closer friends, and not just being connected through Dean, then I think I could be really excited about this.
Kelly, what moments are you talking about with Sam and Castiel this year? I honestly can’t remember much being different about how they interact. Admittedly, I’ve been trying to forgot a lot about the first half of the season (LOL) but I don’t recall Sam and Cas having any significant interactions.
[quote]Kelly, what moments are you talking about with Sam and Castiel this year? I honestly can’t remember much being different about how they interact. Admittedly, I’ve been trying to forgot a lot about the first half of the season (LOL) but I don’t recall Sam and Cas having any significant interactions.[/quote]
Nor can I.
Sorry, I wasn’t saying there were really any significant conversations. I just meant things like Cas going to find Sam and talking him into coming back to save Alfie. Now I don’t think it could be limited to things like that. If Cas is going to be a regular, the interactions would have to be more on par with his relationship with Dean, but I just thought it was a good sign.
Heh, Kelly it was about the point that Cas went to find Sam and sat beside him on the park bench and they DIDN’T have a conversation (which is a two-way-street) that I lost heart with the show.
This is the transcript of that scene (which sums up my problems with the first 10 episodes):
EXT. DIFFERENT PARK – DAY
SAM sits on a bench. CASTIEL appears next to SAM, who jumps.
CASTIEL
Watching humanity – it never gets old, does it?
INT. GARTH’S BOAT – DAY
WHAT! No park bench conversation? Really!!
That was the low point of the season for me 🙁 it has been much better since!
To be fair, there was also this conversation in the same episode.
[quote]CASTIEL
Wait. Here. (He gives his angel sword to SAM.) This doesn’t just work on angels. It kills demons, too.
SAM
Thanks, Cas.[/quote]
So Cas spoke a whole three sentences to Sam. I would like to think that would be improved upon, but history is against that as an interpretation. Cas should have things to say to Sam, grovelling about breaking the wall would be nice as would a discussion about the problems of ends justifying means, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
I think there may actually have been enough apologies at this stage…enough blame, enough criticism. If they all stopped blaming each other for stuff and looked at who was ACTUALLY responsible for most of it (angels and demons) then those self-same angels and demons might see how much trouble they are REALLY in – and wouldn’t that be a sight 😀
Like Dean saying ‘when I come back I’m gonna be pissed’ but multiplied by 3 people and 8 seasons of being manipulated.
I would watch that…
[quote]I think there may actually have been enough apologies at this stage…enough blame, enough criticism. If they all stopped blaming each other for stuff and looked at who was ACTUALLY responsible for most of it (angels and demons) then those self-same angels and demons might see how much trouble they are REALLY in – and wouldn’t that be a sight 😀
Like Dean saying ‘when I come back I’m gonna be pissed’ but multiplied by 3 people and 8 seasons of being manipulated.
I would watch that…[/quote]
Hahaha, loved your post eilf. I would love to watch it too!
I think it makes sense that Cas is so overwhelmed by other devastation he brought as “God” that he concentrates on that rather than what he did to Sam. For the show, what he did to Sam was the worse thing. But for the character I do think it all the other stuff would be harder to get over, especially since he “fixed” Sam and Sam forgave him.
I would like one more heart to heart but I would be okay if they moved on without it.
Yeah I’ll give you that definitely. There have been several times this season alone where I thought Sam was going to have a conversation and just didn’t, that it does frustrate me. That HAS to change.
Oh I hope that is what will happen! Otherwise it’s just too frustrating to watch.
Hmmm . . . I don’t think the writers have any intention of broadening or expanding the Sam/Castiel “relationship.” As Eilf points out, he and Sam don’t even speak in the scene when Cas went to get him, and Percy mentions that Cas said three words to Sam. I don’t know if they interacted much in that cartoon episode either.
I don’t know. I think if the writers ever had any intention of making Sam and Castiel actual friends, they would have done so by now. When I think of Sam’s friends, no one comes to mind. Castiel has always, in my eyes, been more of Dean’s friend than Sam’s. I remember one interview w/Jared where he remarked that Castiel was really Dean’s friend, not Sam’s. I think that is a pretty accurate observation given what we’ve seen. I wouldn’t mind them expanding the association into an actual friendship, but I don’t see that in the works.
I would like to see Sam get his own friend. He is very isolated. If he can’t talk to Dean, then that’s it; he talks to no one else. Sam needs a friend. With Misha becoming a regular again, Sam’s going to be even more isolated than he already is.
I know Sam will probably not get a friend, but it would be nice for the character.
Sadly, I agree that Sam will not get a friend. Frankly, although I think Cas and Sam have a lot in common, even if they became friends, I think that Sam would always be subordinate to Dean as Cas’s friend and I want someone to like Sam best. I mean someone not evil or able to be called crazy or a female that they refuse to write for.
I suspect I will get that the day after I get a pony.
[quote]Sadly, I agree that Sam will not get a friend. Frankly, although I think Cas and Sam have a lot in common, even if they became friends, I think that Sam would always be subordinate to Dean as Cas’s friend and I want someone to like Sam best. I mean someone not evil or able to be called crazy or a female that they refuse to write for. I suspect I will get that the day after I get a pony.[/quote]Sadly I agree too
Congrats to Misha. I think he’s totally earned this. He’s been in the show for 4 years now just as a guest star and yet has developed a very strong, loyal fan base. In many ways, he’s become as much of a “main attraction” as Jensen and Jared. He certainly is a talented actor with great chemistry who holds his own onscreen – “The Man Who Would Be King” is still one of my favorite SPN episodes. I think it perfectly reasonable and laudable for that to be rewarded.
As an aside, it’s also my opinion that, given how much time and heart and sweat and tears J2 have put into this show, and the high-quality product they continue to make even after 8 years – not to mention how almost absurdly generous they are to their fans – if they want a few days off, shame on anyone who says they shouldn’t. These guys are human beings with families. As long as they are giving it their all (which they still are) we shouldn’t begrudge them negotiating for more time off.
And “Bitten” was, IMO, a great episode – a unique, high-quality, impressive, compelling, and creative 40+ minutes of television, even if the Winchesters were only a few scenes. Part of the reason it was so great was that it presented a moral dilemma and a kind of backstory that really fit the theme of the first half of the season. It illuminated key changes the brothers had undergone. And gave us the opportunity to see the world of SPN and the brothers through the eyes of a victim of the supernatural. JMO, but I thought it was nearly superb.
So, I don’t begrudge the show for doing an episode like that once or even twice a season. Perhaps it’s because I’m a more ‘holistic’, story-driven viewer (I watch for more than just the eye-candy), I don’t know.
In terms of the impact on the show – I’m not a huge Cas fan – I loved his character in seasons 4 – 6, but S7 did him a great disservice, IMO. Due to what I view as poor writing/handling, I became extremely irritated with Castiel around mid-S7 and lost almost all the revere I once held for the character…revere which is yet to be regained.
That being said, it is undeniably canon that Castiel has become like a brother to the Winchesters. And this makes sense in light of all they’ve been through together. The angel (albeit having made mistakes and missteps) has stuck by the brothers and saved their lives over and over. He’s gone through almost as much character growth as the Winchester brothers in an incredibly short time frame. With Bobby gone, Cas is in many ways their last remaining family member. He knows more about Sam and Dean than any other being in current existence. And for those reasons I personally would have no problem if the ‘dynamic duo’ became the ‘three musketeers.’ And no, I don’t believe for a second this would detract from the brothers’ story or relationship.
However, I agree with those who believe that something critical must happen in order for Cas to be bumped into a regular character role lest it lead to real problems in terms of storytelling and believability. Thus, I predict he will become fully human (or something) by season’s end. It just seems like the only way this could work. And I do have lingering concerns about how that will work – last time Cas underwent a ‘change’ it didn’t go over very well with me. (I didn’t care much for crazy-Cas).
But overall I do think this is exciting and promising – potentially opens doors for lots of creativity and more character growth on all fronts, which is always hugely supported by this particular fan.
Nice post Bamboo24, and I would like to add that I didn’t love future Cas a whole lot either. He was somewhat amusing but if he ever gets to be THAT human it wouldn’t be Cas to me anymore.
Leah,
Future!Cas was, at least for me, highly depressing. (You’re talking about how he was in “The End” right?) Yeah, that may have just been Zachariah’s interpretation of how an angel would react to becoming fully human. Either way, I don’t want to see that either. And I don’t want Cas becoming a constant damsel in distress due to his humanness, if they even go that route. I think it’d be great if they could strike a balance between the warrior and asset he has been in the past and what he needs to be in order for him not to become a handicap. It’s a tall order, I think.
I liked future Cas. In fact I’ve liked all the versions of Cas, but I wouldn’t want him to stay that way, it just wouldn’t seem like Cas.
Yes “The End” Cas, a disillusioned burnout. I think they HAVE to diminish his powers if he is going to be a regular next season. I’m not sure there is any other way if he is to be around all the time. I agree, a tall order finding the right note to hit on that.
Actually Cas said that he thought the reason he didn’t have any powers in The End was because the angels had gone. Maybe that is how they can make Cas approximately human – if they close the angel gate with the tablet.
[quote]And for those reasons I personally would have no problem if the ‘dynamic duo’ became the ‘three musketeers.’ And no, I don’t believe for a second this would detract from the brothers’ story or relationship. [/quote]
Bamboo24, I agree with most of what you said. (well I didn’t like Bitten, but that was do mainly to execution, so I wouldn’t mind another similar episode). And I know it will probably seem petty but I really really don’t want them to become the 3 musketeers. I don’t mind him being a regular, but the story has to focus on the boys or it won’t be SPN to me.
We already get to little insight into Sam’s character. I really do fear that if they make Cas a main character, we’ll get even less. Taking more of a Bobby role would be great. But (and I’m becoming a broken record with this) they HAVE to expand the Cas and Sam relationship.
Kelly, I can’t speak for anyone else but I think most of us do not want the focus taken away from the boys. Cas should remain an ally and a friend and yes he should have more of a relationship with Sam. It would be great if they could bond more and develop a friendship. I think they could have a little fun with that and have Dean feel a little put out.
Sorry, was I coming off as totally aggressive there? That wasn’t my intention.
I enjoy your upbeat attitude, Bamboo24, even if I don’t always agree with you. I actually did agree with almost all your comment. Just not the 3 Musketeer thing.
KELLY,
For the record, I didn’t think you came off as aggressive at all. 🙂
Okay, good. Whew. I’m always afraid I’ll unintentionally come off as all pissy.
I do think they’ve had Sam be WAY too introverted since S4 and I this season especially it’s really been an issue for me. It would be great if Cas being a regular actually increase instead decrease the insight into his character.
And I wouldn’t mind Benny being on more either. I really liked the character.
Kelly, are you replying to me? I absolutely did not think you were being agressive at all!! I was actually agreeing with you and saying that I thought we all kind of are on the same page. I am so sorry if it came across as a rebuke. I did not mean that at all. I knew you were addressing Bamboo and I didn’t want to speak for her.
Leah, I think I was being all paranoid per usual. 😀 You didn’t say anything wrong at all.
🙂
Totally agree. They should try to show us Sam & Cas friendship. They really have good onscreen chemistry.
[quote]And I know it will probably seem petty but I really really don’t want them to become the 3 musketeers. I don’t mind him being a regular, but the story has to focus on the boys or it won’t be SPN to me. [/quote]
KELLY, I don’t think that’s petty. I think that’s fair and understandable. I think I would be disturbed if Cas suddenly received equal screen time as the Winchesters.
And I don’t literally mean, of course, that Cas would have equal screen time as the Winchesters – but I do think it would be entirely reasonable if he had the kind of screen time Bobby did in S7. If he was promoted in presence and stature, maybe. I also remember how it was back when we had “Team Free Will” – and I didn’t think that was bad at all. But I have no doubts that Sam and Dean will always, without fail, be the center around which the rest of the show revolves – as it should be and always has been.
[quote]We already get to little insight into Sam’s character. I really do fear that if they make Cas a main character, we’ll get even less. Taking more of a Bobby role would be great. But (and I’m becoming a broken record with this) they HAVE to expand the Cas and Sam relationship.[/quote]
I think we have a bit of a different view of Sam’s character – I agree that we get less obvious POV of him, but I think that’s for a reason, because of the nature of his character and personality. But that aside – I’m not opposed to them expanding the Cas and Sam relationship.
Honestly though…it’s kind of random but I’ll share a secret with y’all…in my heart of hearts, I’d love Benny to become a full-fledged character, too. That is my hope, though I doubt it will come to fruition.
[quote]I’d love Benny to become a full-fledged character, too[/quote]I would not like it Bamboo24 as both Cas and Benny would be from Dean’s corner ( I know I am oversimplifying) .but it will be like they come to the equation through dean having unique experiences with Dean.Cas in purg and hell..benny in purg…If Ruby was not turned a villian and was included then I would have been okay but now not so much.
[quote][quote]I’d love Benny to become a full-fledged character, too[/quote]I would not like it Bamboo24 as both Cas and Benny would be from Dean’s corner ( I know I am oversimplifying) .but it will be like they come to the equation through dean having unique experiences with Dean.Cas in purg and hell..benny in purg…If Ruby was not turned a villian and was included then I would have been okay but now not so much.[/quote]
Neither would I although I wouldnt be half surprised we do have Benny back next season because like Castiel his relationship with Dean has proved popular not has a regular but making some sort of appearance.
I just think Sam needs more than a side relationship with Castiel he needs someone that relates to Sam.
Sam needs a friend! He needs someone besides Castiel or Benny b/c those two are very attached to Dean. I’m sick of them piggybacking off of Dean’s relationships and connections all the time w/Sam. They’ve done that w/every single character on this show except John or the very few that were supposed to hang around Sam.
He needs his own friend. They need to develop Sam’s own connections w/characters. They need to make me believe a relationship is real for Sam just like I would w/Dean through scenes and dialogue. Otherwise, Sam will continue to be the outsider/bystander he so often becomes when the scene includes others.
I highly doubt anything will change in the way they write Sam or how he connects to people, but it would be beneficial to the character IMO. I don’t agree that Sam is an introvert who never talks. He has slowly become that way, but in the beginning, he was the “talker” while Dean was the one you had to pull teeth to get to say anything. There’s a reason Sam emotes all over the place in fanfic and is usually written to be very emotinal. Somewhere along the line (Season 4 I guess), Kripke decided that Sam’s POV really wasn’t that imporant and didn’t matter much. Every showrunner has embraced that line of thought. I can’t help but think if Sam had been flung to Purgatory and Dean left here, we’d have gotten a more fleshed out story for Dean.
lala2,
I have no problem with Sam having a friend or developing his friendships with other characters – I welcome it.
But I differ in that I see his lack of friendship as a something natural that arose out of what his character has gone through.
Sam lost Jess. He lost Madison. In terribly cruel ways. Then he found out that he had something evil inside him, that he could inadvertently hurt people. That his mom and Jess had died because something was after him. Then he allowed Ruby to get close to him – trusted her, even over his brother – and she burned him. Befriending Ruby turned out to be the worst mistake of Sam’s life. To top it all off, when Lucifer possessed him, he found out that all his favorite teachers and friends throughout his life had really been demons who’d been keeping an eye on him. Including Brady, who’d instigating Jess’ murder.
And because of all that, because how he’s repeated been hurt in the worst way in these relationships, that is why Sam is so self-isolated and reserved. I think there is a lack of trust toward himself and toward others. And it’s unfortunate, and it would be nice to see him heal from that. But it makes sense in terms of character growth.
I also think we do get Sam’s POV, but it’s subtle while Dean’s is more obvious. That’s a personality difference. There are differences between the characters and how they express emotion.
I certainly don’t remember Kripke – or any other showrunner – ever stating that “Sam’s POV really wasn’t that important and didn’t matter much.”
[quote]lala2,
I have no problem with Sam having a friend or developing his friendships with other characters – I welcome it.
But I differ in that I see his lack of friendship as a something natural that arose out of what his character has gone through.
Sam lost Jess. He lost Madison. In terribly cruel ways. Then he found out that he had something evil inside him, that he could inadvertently hurt people. That his mom and Jess had died because something was after him. Then he allowed Ruby to get close to him – trusted her, even over his brother – and she burned him. Befriending Ruby turned out to be the worst mistake of Sam’s life. To top it all off, when Lucifer possessed him, he found out that all his favorite teachers and friends throughout his life had really been demons who’d been keeping an eye on him. Including Brady, who’d instigating Jess’ murder.
And because of all that, because how he’s repeated been hurt in the worst way in these relationships, that is why Sam is so self-isolated and reserved. I think there is a lack of trust toward himself and toward others. And it’s unfortunate, and it would be nice to see him heal from that. But it makes sense in terms of character growth.
I also think we do get Sam’s POV, but it’s subtle while Dean’s is more obvious. That’s a personality difference. There are differences between the characters and how they express emotion.
I certainly don’t remember Kripke – or any other showrunner – ever stating that “Sam’s POV really wasn’t that important and didn’t matter much.”[/quote]
Well you could very well be right that Sam’s lack of friendship is something that grew out of his experiences that his introverted ways are sympton of that( I personally think that alot has been a poor approach to Sam). However has we have no way of knowing for sure as we havent actually heard anything from Sam to either confirm or deny this it is a interpretation that is as valid as the next.
The trap of writing Sam as subtle is that he becomes opaque while Dean well it is impossible to not see how he feels .We are privy to things with Dean like the last scene at the end of last weeks episode in his pray to Castiel in a way we arent with Sam hence why people relate to Dean more , have a better understanding of him.
I want Sam to have somebody because it is a way of opening him up to give us potentially scenes that get us closer to Sam . That is why Amelia was a disappointment because she was written in a way that did none of that for Sam .
[b]Bamboo[/b], the problem w/the writers giving Sam a subtle POV is that sometimes it’s so subtle that some of us miss it entirely. Ever since S4, I’ve felt that Sam hasn’t had a very strong, clear POV. We get it sometimes like in [i]Metamorphosis [/i]or [i]Unforgiven[/i], but that’s it. It is not consistent like w/Dean, and there’s really no excuse for that IMO. To me, it feels like the writers simply don’t care about Sam’s POV. How Sam feels isn’t as important as how Dean feels about whatever is happening to Sam. That’s just my opinion on the show and how I view it.
Because this is a dramatic show, it would be best, IMO, if Sam’s POV were less subtle and more direct and obvious. Often, several viewers have different beliefs about the same scenes re: Sam. Everyone is always coming up with his/her own opinion re: Sam. That’s a problem, IMO. With Dean, we know what he’s thinking and how he’s feeling. With Sam, it’s not as clear. This subtle POV, as you call it, is very damaging, IMO, to Sam’s character.
I don’t disagree w/you that Sam’s experiences may have caused him to be more reserved, but like [b]Sharon[/b] said, I wish we could learn that through some dialogue from Sam, otherwise, we’re just speculating and, again, coming up w/our own reasons re: Sam’s behavior.
The reason I push so hard for Sam having a friend is b/c I would like to think he’d have a person he could talk to about his feelings/fears/etc. since he doesn’t talk to Dean. I know giving Sam his own friend doesn’t guarantee that as evidenced by the Amelia debacle, but it could possibly happen.
lala2, I pretty gave my opinions yesterday ad nauseum on this. But I did have another thought on who could fill in the friend role. Someone with a past history on the show. A beloved character in his own right. AND someone who always seemed more invested in Sam than Dean—–GABRIEL!!! I have no clue how they could resurrect him, but I doubt anyone would have a problem with bringing Richard Speight back on the show.
Yes, he would be fine! I also like Garth. I think that’s an unpopular opinion, but Garth is cool w/me. I’d love to see Sam open up to Gabriel or Garth!
Gabriel would be great. I was never sure that he really died in HOTG. I always felt he could have faked it. My other theory is that Gabriel’s vessel actually WAS a Trickster God, so that even though Lucifer killed Gabriel, he didn’t kill the vessel. Richard could then come back as The Trickster and become friends with Sam.
That would be cool!
But then [b]Eilf [/b] raises a good point about the Trickster. He needlessly tortured Sam for 6 months! I’m not sure he would be a good friend for Sam. Too bad all the Campbells died. Sam could have been friends w/one of them.
Um… Kelly, I know I am being difficult here since I totally agree that Sam needs a sounding board and it doesn’t necessarily have to be a friend (though that is what I would like) but …. Gabriel? Did you see what he did to Sam in Mystery Spot?
The Sam after Mystery Spot was different to the younger somewhat naive (totally adorable ….) one of the previous 2 1/2 seasons. Gabriel did that to move forward the angels plans (though he wasn’t working with them) and produced the more ruthless Sam we first saw in Jus in Bello.
Mind you I would love to have Gabriel back, that would be fun 😀
eilf, I wasn’t thinking a lovey-dovey, touchy-feely relationship. I was just thinking maybe he could get Sam to talk by annoying the crap out of him until he did. 😀
I would love to have Gabriel back but honestly I don’t care if Sam gets a bestie or not. I just suggesting for people, specifically lala2, who did.
To be fair, the writers seemed to stop writing for the Amelia/Sam storyline right after she forced the dog on him. Amelia could have been a confidante. They could have used the relationship to show a side of Sam after he lost Dean. But they didn’t write ANYTHING about Sam in that entire interlude.
I so want Sam to have a friend outside of Dean. Living with someone 24/7 means they will get on your nerves at times. There will be times when you want to b*tch about them. Sam can’t do that to Dean, because Dean’s self esteem is so bad that he doesn’t take it well. Sam needs someone he can talk to, and vent to so that he can get things off his chest without upsetting Dean, or worrying Dean. Plus he could use someone to talk to about the things that interest Sam that don’t interest Dean. What these things might be, I have no idea, but Sam must have some interests. Right?
I find it interesting that Sam has not expressed – either directly or indirectly, obviously or subtly – a lack of friendship or an unmet need for a confidante.
Again, there is a clear personality difference.
Dean is the one who – and we have seen this since the pilot – has a deep desire and need for family, for close confidantes. I’d daresay he tends to be clingy with those close to him.
Sam – since the pilot – has always been more independent. Not isolated; that didn’t come until after all the crap he’s been through – but certainly independent and self-sufficient. Sam tends to keep everyone at arm’s length, even those he cares most for.
I’ve been re-watching S1, and even back then – Dean was the one with the thin outer shell covering a deep layer of emotion. He’s a feeler. His toughness has always been an act – an ingrained attempt to “be brave” as he told Lucas in “Dead in the Water.” He can’t be empathetic with victims, for example, because doing so would make him vulnerable, possibly break that thin outer shell. He is protector, always on guard, always fearful, but determined to be brave. He’s the picture of emotional insecurity, even instability. But he’s always shown us his cards – what you see is what you get with Dean. He likes women, cars, classic rock…it’s all right there.
Sam, on the other hand, has always been more cerebral and analytical (consummate student and researcher). He’s a thinker. The guy with the laptop and the book. Very reserved in nature (he doesn’t like to party like Dean does). Not that there aren’t deep emotions running under the surface, because there certainly are, but that they are expressed in different ways and are more controlled. Sam is very intentional. He thinks before he speaks, and often doesn’t speak at all. He is able to intentionally empathize with victims. Unlike Dean, his insecurities stem from being ‘little brother’ trying to prove himself, constantly being manipulated and chosen for evil purposes, and living a life he never chose for himself. He is a classic introvert. Or, as Bobby would say, “a deep little sonofabitch.”
I think there is a lot of truth to what people say when they refer to Sam as ‘the enigma’. But that’s not a bad thing – it’s not something done to deliberately malign him – it’s simply who the character is. With Dean, there is no mystery. There’s almost nothing new to learn about him. His modus operandi is pretty straightforward. Always has been.
So where would be without one brother? They are two halves of a whole.
Each brother has a different personality, different needs, different desires, different ways of expressing themselves and their emotions. Sam doesn’t and can’t be expected to express himself the same way Dean does. And vice-versa.
So in many ways, I interpret what some say as, in actuality, a desire for Sam to become Dean, and for Dean to become Sam – for them to switch personalities. But it has never been set up that way. They each have their own roles. It’s not that Sam can’t have friends or express emotion, but that he does so in a different way than Dean does. And again, vice versa.
Just some thoughts.
I don’t want Sam to become Dean or for Dean to become Sam. I DO want a clear cut view of Sam and why he made certain controversial decisions. A friend is the easiest way, but I would take Sam writing in a diary, or going to a therapist, or being part of an online community, or praying to God like Dean just did. Anything, where we can have Sam state why he takes certain actions and what is going on inside his head. Currently what we get over and over again is how Dean sees Sam’s actions and what Dean thinks is going on in Sam’s head. Then when we don’t get Sam’s view in any way, the audience is left with the impression that Dean is a reliable narrator when it comes to Sam’s motives. To this day, people talk about how Sam always wanted normal, when in fact what he said he wanted was SAFE. To this day, Dean’s interpretation is the one given weight, not Sam’s statement about what he feels. And that is because Dean keeps repeating that Sam wanted normal, and Sam is kept mute.
I’m an introvert and I still have friends. Maybe not a lot, but I have friends. In addition to giving Sam someone to talk to, Sam having a friend would mean that Sam is important to the world, not because he is Dean’s brother, but for himself. Currently, if Sam died, no one would care except Dean. Heck, when Sam went into the Cage, no one cared except Dean. Bobby didn’t turn to drink like he did when Dean went to Hell. Ellen and Jo were happy Dean was back. Cas formed the friendship when Dean came back. Sam, no one except Dean mourned his loss and really no one except Dean cared much when he got his soul back. Bobby pulled away because of what Sam did when soulless.
So no, I don’t want the guys to change personalities, I just want Sam’s POV to be clearly and completely represented. I’m not picky about how they go about it.
[quote]I’m an introvert and I still have friends. Maybe not a lot, but I have friends. In addition to giving Sam someone to talk to, Sam having a friend would mean that Sam is important to the world, not because he is Dean’s brother, but for himself. Currently, if Sam died, no one would care except Dean. Heck, when Sam went into the Cage, no one cared except Dean. Bobby didn’t turn to drink like he did when Dean went to Hell. Ellen and Jo were happy Dean was back. Cas formed the friendship when Dean came back. Sam, no one except Dean mourned his loss and really no one except Dean cared much when he got his soul back. Bobby pulled away because of what Sam did when soulless. [/quote]
I’m an introvert, too, Percy. I have few friends and the ones I have are incredibly close. I think the problem with Sam is, as I stated before – he’s been burned so terribly so many times that he can’t let people get close, or at least very rarely. It’s the self-isolation as a result of deep wounds and trauma we’re seeing.
As for Bobby turning to drink after Sam went in the cage – yes he did. Watch “Weekend at Bobby’s” again. The very beginning of the episode, where Crowley appears. Bobby is drinking and grieving while Sam’s in the Cage. Crowley knows it too, which is why he rubs it in Bobby’s face and tells him to “cheer up”. Ellen and Jo were dead after Sam came back, so that can’t really be applied – but Sam and Ellen did have a bond way back in S1-2. And Bobby might have pulled away a bit after Sam’s Soulless actions, but that didn’t last. He was there for both boys throughout S7. That being said – yes, you’re right, if Sam died, no one would care except for Dean, and probably Garth, and Jodi Mills, and Amelia (much as you may hate her), and Charlie. And if Dean died, no one would care except for Sam, and Garth, and Jodi Mills, and maybe Benny, and Cas, and Charlie. There’s not much of a tallied difference there, IMO. They’ve always pretty much only had each other.
I don’t know that ALL the audience is left with the impression that Dean is a reliable narrator – or any narrator at all. I certainly don’t see it that way.
[quote]I just want Sam’s POV to be clearly and completely represented. I’m not picky about how they go about it.
[/quote]
Fair enough.
Wasn’t Bobby’s deal almost up? That’s probably why he was drinking a lot in WAB. Chuck says that a week after Sam “died,” Bobby was hunting a rugaru. Life moved on for him . . . rather quickly.
I gotta agree w/Percy in that I don’t think Bobby grieved all that much for Sam. Now, we were led to believe Bobby became an alcoholic when Dean died. IMO, Bobby and Dean definitely had the deeper, more significant relationship.
I don’t want Sam to be Dean or Dean to be Sam. I’m not sure why wanting Sam to express his feelings more means he has to be like Dean?
Sam expressed himself fine in S1 when it came to his visions. He told Dean exactly how he felt about John’s death, about John’s secret and Dean’s willingness to keep that secret, and how he felt about possibly becoming evil. Sam expressed his fears quite a lot. Sam told Dean exactly how he felt about Dean’s deal. He confronted Dean all the time in S3, and told Dean how he felt in FB and MM. Sam became secretive, quiet, and cagey in S4. Ever since then, he’s been mum. What’s up w/that?
I just want to hear Sam speak like he has in the past. I want to know his thoughts and feelings just like I do w/Dean. I don’t want to have to guess everything or make assumptions about him, esp. when they have him doing horrible stuff like not looking for his brother. If the writers would just write for him, this wouldn’t be a problem.
lala2, Bobby’s deal wasn’t up for a long to come. He was simply not waiting until the last minute. I do think he grieved for Sam deeply. I think he kept hunting because he that is what he did. He hunted after he had to kill his wife. He hunted after Dean died (sure he was drinking heavily but they never said he gave up hunting). I do think he had a closer relationship with Dean, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t love Sam too.
On the Sam POV for the first 3 season we agree.
Yes, that’s right, [b]Kelly[/b]. I forgot that Bobby had a 10-year deal.
You’re probably right in that Bobby did grieve for Sam. I just wish we had seen some evidence of it. By the time WAB aired, I had become disillusioned w/the Bobby/Sam relationship. Bobby’s confession in YCHTH just ended it for me to be honest. I’ve never really got back on the Sam/Bobby train.
[quote]Wasn’t Bobby’s deal almost up? That’s probably why he was drinking a lot in WAB. Chuck says that a week after Sam “died,” Bobby was hunting a rugaru. Life moved on for him . . . rather quickly. [/quote]
No, Bobby had a ten-year deal. He was sitting around with nothing to do but grieve – Dean was off with Lisa and Ben – and he summoned Crowley to get his soul back.
Is it so hard to believe that this man, who has repeatedly stated and demonstrated his love for BOTH boys, grieved for Sam? Really?
I’m sorry, but that gets under my skin a bit.
Well, you’re right that he hunted a Rugaru a week after Sam’s jump. Sure. But because what else was he going to do? He had essentially lost both his boys.
[quote]Sam expressed himself fine in S1 when it came to his visions. He told Dean exactly how he felt about John’s death, about John’s secret and Dean’s willingness to keep that secret, and how he felt about possibly becoming evil. Sam expressed his fears quite a lot. Sam told Dean exactly how he felt about Dean’s deal. He confronted Dean all the time in S3, and told Dean how he felt in FB and MM. Sam became secretive, quiet, and cagey in S4. Ever since then, he’s been mum. What’s up w/that? [/quote]
Huge character changes, is what is up with that. I think the end of S4 is when Sam got real quiet. After he let Lucifer free. And things just went downhill from there. I mean, you know his history as well as I. This is a guy who has spent how many years in Lucifer’s cage – has been through hell in mind and body due to demon blood, psychic visions, Soullessness, etc. …how can he be expected to be the same guy he was in S1-3?? Dean is certainly not the same guy he was in S1-3, either.
[quote]when they have him doing horrible stuff like not looking for his brother.[/quote]
Well, I didn’t see that as a horrible thing. 🙂
To borrow a phrase, I guess “mileage varies.”
I’m just saying I want more Sam POV. I don’t think that means he has to be the exact same person he was in S1, nor do I think it means he has to “become Dean.”
My beef is w/the writing. You are happy w/the writing so we’ll never agree. Let’s just agree to disagree.
Didn’t Sam get brought back right away (in our time)? He was souless yes, but Bobby didn’t know that. I think Bobby genuinely loved Sam and would have grieved for him as much as Dean. Bobby was understandably cautious after SS tried to murder him. But I don’t think it can be said he didn’t care.
I want to see more of Sam’s POV too. Especially about the events of earlier this season. I think the people who know Sam care about him including Cas. Could he use someone he could confide in or some way to express his feelings, most certainly.
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Bamboo24-That is a wonderful analysis of these two complex characters. Sam’s lack of friends seems to be the result of many of these factors. As much as they are like oil and water sometimes they are also like two halves of a whole. They compliment and make each other better also.
Well speaking for myself it has zero anything to do with wanting a swap in personalities [b]Bamboo24[/b]. It is simply to do with creating a Sam pov that is not so subtle that sometimes it is non existent now in real life it wouldnt be a issue as much but in a tv show it is a different situation and it can dictate how people connect to a character . The bi product of how Sam is written is that he does get maligned and not understood wether the intention was there or not. We have seen it this season with Sam in both not looking for Dean and his reaction to Benny.
I just do not understand this idea that Sam’s pov is set in some sort of immovable structure that cannot be changed or be flexible .Why is it so hard to give Sam a pov that people can relate to? in season 1 the writers got us inside Sam’s head without very little issues and complications. A friendship is one of the way’s to get a introvert to talk it creates situations to open that character up without changing that character,s personality .
Now I dont believe Sam will get that but I do believe he needs it .
[quote]Well speaking for myself it has zero anything to do with wanting a swap in personalities [b]Bamboo24[/b]. It is simply to do with creating a Sam pov that is not so subtle that sometimes it is non existent now in real life it wouldnt be a issue as much but in a tv show it is a different situation and it can dictate how people connect to a character . The bi product of how Sam is written is that he does get maligned and not understood wether the intention was there or not. We have seen it this season with Sam in both not looking for Dean and his reaction to Benny.
I just do not understand this idea that Sam’s pov is set in some sort of immovable structure that cannot be changed or be flexible .Why is it so hard to give Sam a pov that people can relate to? in season 1 the writers got us inside Sam’s head without very little issues and complications. A friendship is one of the way’s to get a introvert to talk it creates situations to open that character up without changing that character,s personality .
Now I dont believe Sam will get that but I do believe he needs it .[/quote]
Great post, [b]Sharon[/b]! I couldn’t agree more w/you. In fact, I think we got some good POV for Sam for the first 3 seasons, so I’m not sure why it’s so difficult now. I can only assume it’s b/c the writers aren’t as interested in giving Sam’s POV on stuff anymore.
[quote]To be fair, the writers seemed to stop writing for the Amelia/Sam storyline right after she forced the dog on him. Amelia could have been a confidante. They could have used the relationship to show a side of Sam after he lost Dean. But they didn’t write ANYTHING about Sam in that entire interlude.[/quote]
That will always be the strangest part about the whole Amelia storyline, IMO. It did absolutely NOTHING for Sam – a main character. He didn’t grow from his time w/her. He didn’t learn anything – that I saw – from his time w/her. His relationship w/her was a huge waste of time!
What was the point of Amelia? I know some said they learned things about Sam through the relationship, but I learned NOTHING. It’s so upsetting that so much time was wasted on Amelia. We didn’t even get to see Sam’s grief during that time. Heck, with Lisa, you could see, or rather I could see Dean wasn’t happy. With Amelia, I didn’t get anything from Sam – not sadness, not happiness . . . just nothing.
Bamboo, I agree with your post, but in a tv show, there’s a way to get into the head of someone who has no friends and doesn’t talk much anymore.
For example, Dean says in his prayer to Cas that Sam is hurting, but all I saw was Sam spitting a bit of blood. The writers could have included a scene of Sam alone, visibly hurting.
In season 4, before Sam became completely desilusioned with the angels, he could have been shown praying to God, or confiding in a priest. Before he jumped into the pit, he could have written a letter like Dean did before saying yes to Michael.
The last few years, Sam could have kept a journal. Maybe someone (Garth, Cas, etc) could have found it and read it out loud.
And there are so many other ways to get to know an introvert, so I don’t accept that we get so little POV because Sam has been so beaten down that he pretty much keeps to himself. Actually, that’s heartbreaking when we think about it. The writers could also showcase his loneliness by having other characters noticing it or Dean asking him why he doesn’t reach out to people the same way anymore.
IMO, Sam has lost so much depth as a character during the last few years and it’s a sham .
[quote]For example, Dean says in his prayer to Cas that Sam is hurting, but all I saw was Sam spitting a bit of blood. The writers could have included a scene of Sam alone, visibly hurting.
In season 4, before Sam became completely desilusioned with the angels, he could have been shown praying to God, or confiding in a priest. Before he jumped into the pit, he could have written a letter like Dean did before saying yes to Michael.
The last few years, Sam could have kept a journal. Maybe someone (Garth, Cas, etc) could have found it and read it out loud.
[/quote]
Spitting out blood is not enough of an indication that someone is hurting?
And in season 4, we the explanation for his action spelled out pretty clearly in “IKWYDLS”, we also had a TON of scenes with him talking to and confiding in Ruby and in Chuck. We even had him express himself to Dean several times. S4 was one in which we got a lot of Sam’s POV, IMO. And that was a great thing.
Before jumping in the Pit, Sam said all he wanted to say to Dean – they both knew exactly what they were doing and why they were doing it. Sam made Dean promise to go find Lisa and Ben. Why write a letter when Dean was right there with him up until the end? The only reason Dean was writing a letter in the 100th episode was to explain himself before he gave up on free will and said yes to Michael. There is a huge difference there.
I am totally fine with getting more of Sam’s POV. I welcome more of it. I just think there are completely valid reasons related to the story progression and the character’s personality as to why things are the way they are, and not because Sam is somehow being written to be disliked or deliberately maligned.
Bamboo – excellent and logical post here and further up the thread. I have never ever felt that Sam was somehow being portrayed badly. I have understood and sympathized with pretty much everything he’s ever done. I actually can’t say that about my relationship with Dean as a character even though I am rather in love with him. I [i]would[/i] like to see more of Sam’s interior life and especially where he found himself at the end of S7, but I also know he doesn’t wear his heart on his sleeve and that using some contrivance like a diary would not work in the context of this show (rarely does it ever work in a show imho).
Arad, that is too funny. I just posted that I didn’t care how we got Sam’s POV even if it was in a diary and then I refreshed and you wrote not to use it. 😀 Can you see the desperation the lack of POV in the first half has driven me to? It’s sad really.
I don’t have big issues with Sam’s POV in S4, sure I would liked more but like you said he did confide in Ruby, Chuck and even Dean about things in wasn’t trying to hide from him. And that season there was a REASON we weren’t getting all the info.
I would argue S5 though, because the first three episode we did get some insight and a little bit a few others but at a certain point we were experience almost everything from Dean’s POV as he spiraled into despair. Even Sam’s detox was from Dean’s POV. Again storywise I understood way we needed so much of Dean’s POV, because they were leading up to him making decisions that were contrary to everything we knew about him.
But I don’t understand way we got so little info about what Sam was going through. I adore PoNR but Sam’s speeches in that were all Dean focused. And then is big decision to jump comes down to a few lines to Bobby then Dean. But nothing about what was going on with him. SS we got more when he was Lucifer but it was extremely limited in scope. Basically focusing on his history of others manipulating him and betraying him.
S6 and S7 and similar problems where we would catch little glimpses but it was very hard to get a good read on him. And it bothered me (especially when he was in the hospital-why couldn’t he have been conversing with Lucifer or screaming at him-the worst had already happened) but it was more like okay this is something I’d like to improve.
But this season in the lack of POV the first half is really effecting my enjoyment of the first 10 episodes. And the Amelia scenes were just one frustrating scene after another where we learned absolutely nothing about Sam. I seriously can’t even watch those episodes without wanting to scream in frustration.
We know much more about what Cas and even Benny are going through then we do about one of two main characters on the show. I don’t care how introverted he is that is NOT acceptable. And so far I see zero reason for it this season AND it was desperately needed in the first half.
There is nothing about Sam season 1-7 that leads me to believe that he would just run without looking. Unless there was some total and complete breakdown. But they have given us absolutely no reason 16 episodes in.
Yes many people have suggested very fine reasons. But any of those could be true or none of them. Because he has no POV and part of that is that he was fighting with Dean and has no one else to confide in. Although I seriously wouldn’t care if he had a “special” confidant besides Dean or not. I would prefer he confides in Dean and vice versa, but I would be perfectly happy if he had a heart to heart with Charlie or Garth or Jody or if Dean found a diary. I don’t really care. But this season I NEED to have more of Sam’s POV specifically what in the hell he was doing during those months before Amelia.
But regardless, to bring this back to the thread, they HAVE to development the relationship with Cas, if he is going to be a regular cast member. Not just for the above reasons, but because !. it’s a wasted golden storyline. 2. because it makes no sense for them not talk about the stuff between them. Seriously why wouldn’t they ever talk? And 3. because you can’t have the ONE secondary regular character revolve around only one of the two main cast members.
Kelly I totally agree. I’m desperate to see more of Sam’s pov and think it’s essential that Sam and Cas’s relationship is expanded too!
Can you imagine Sam pouring his heart out to his diary like Liz Parker or Elena Gilbert? Apart from the fact he is a kick ass 6’4″ hunter who is over 30 it would just be really weird! 😉
Arad, I don’t watch TVD but I was just thinking of Roswell. The diary was pretty bad. But why I was thinking about is because it was yet another show that had a random pregnancy, where the kid got farmed off to someone else to raise.
Don’t get me wrong I’ve think adoption is great. But when they do it on shows it basically to just get rid of at kid that is inconvenient for plot purposes. It bugs the crap out of me. Though that one didn’t bother me near as much as Scully giving up her baby. So it safer for him to live with a random farm couple then with a FBI agent or 2 FBI agents when Mulder got back.UGH! That pissed me off.
Arad I forgot to point out that this post was totally off the subject. Sorry. 😆
I watch TVD (I refuse to be judged 😀 ) and there is almost never a diary in it! That town DOES have more parties, dances and festivals than any town I have ever heard of though – it more needs a social diary than personal ones.
But since everyone has taken to telling everyone else everything that is happening, at all times, you probably don’t need to write anything down anyway…
I went to a Twilight movie marathon when Breaking Dawn 1 came out. And that is not even the most embarrassing things I’m a fan of. 😀
That is pretty funny eilf. No judging, I watch it on occasion. It looks like it could be a fun place to live if it weren’t for all the dang vampires. I saw a diary early on but not so much lately.
Yes, Kelly, you explained yourself much better than me, lol!
[quote]But regardless, to bring this back to the thread, they HAVE to development the relationship with Cas, if he is going to be a regular cast member.[/quote]
Cas was a regular in season six and appeared a lot in season five and they never made him have a relationship with Sam, so I don’t think the writers agree that they have to develop a relationship between Sam and Cas. The fact that we can still argue about how much or how little Bobby loved Sam means that in 7 seasons they never gave us a clear view of Bobby’s relationship with Sam, so why should Cas be any different?
I hope they do give Sam and Cas some connection, but since they haven’t until now, I’m not sure how they would justify it. I’m very afraid Sam will continue to be a lonely little petunia in an onion patch, never quite fitting in.
Hmm… “Sam being disliked or deliberately maligned” I never said that. I just said that the writers don’t get enough into his head.
No, IMO, spitting up blood and looking at your glass all surprised doesn’t show Sam is hurting. For all we know, his gums were bleeding. It shows that he’s surprised, and scared. Sam didn’t look like he was hurting one second during that episode. But I feel like I’m nitpicking.
Sam sometimes says why he does things, but rarely says how he feels. For example, before jumping into the pit, he said “I’m the least of you” and “I let him out, I have to put him back in”, but how did he feel? Was he scared? A character’s feelings is what brings us closer to him and that’s what I miss.
I missed seeing the immediate aftermath of Dean going to Hell and I really really missed not seeing Sam right after Dean disappeared into Purgatory. In fact, I’ll go as far as saying that the only way Sam not looking for Dean could have been looked at sympathetically was if we had seen Sam’s world “imploding” right after Dean’s “death” and if they had shown why Sam was so sure Dean was dead. We didn’t see any of that. Worse, Sam’s explanations were muddled at best.
I don’t think that the writers deliberately write Sam to be disliked, but IMO there was some neglect there.
I think that the writing for Dean is generally character driven and the writing for Sam is more plot driven and it hurts the character.
Again, I agree that Sam being isolated and so quiet makes sense after everything he went through. I just think that there are ways around that to tell us what’s happening with him. And why exactly is he so harsh with Benny? I have ideas, but we don’t know for sure. That’s what I’m talking about. We should know, even if Sam is an introvert these days!
[quote]Hmm… “Sam being disliked or deliberately maligned” I never said that. I just said that the writers don’t get enough into his head.
[/quote]
JuliaG – that comment wasn’t directed at you. I was speaking generally. I didn’t intend to imply that you said something you didn’t.
I think I could agree that the writing for Dean seems to be character-driven whereas the writing for Sam is more plot-driven – that kind of goes back to what I was saying about the different roles they have on the show.
[quote]I don’t think that the writers deliberately write Sam to be disliked, but IMO there was some neglect there.
I think that the writing for Dean is generally character driven and the writing for Sam is more plot driven and it hurts the character.[/quote]
Again, I couldn’t agree more w/you, [b]JuliaG[/b]! I’ve often said that lately Sam is a walking, talking plot point. He has no feelings about the things that happen to him b/c that’s not his purpose. He is written to be something Dean angsts over and worries about. This type of writing is seriously hurting the character.
Take this season for example. Is it really in character for Sam Winchester to NOT look for his missing brother? No, it’s not. Sam would ALWAYS look. Why did Sam think Dean was dead? If Sam thought Dean was dead, why did he tell Dean he thought he was eating a taco the next town over? Am I to believe that Sam really didn’t investigate at all? That he just walked away from Dean and left Dean to whatever fate he met? Sam Winchester? That’s not Sam. Sam would have investigated at least. But that’s not the story Carver wanted to explore so Sam acts in a completely OOC and doesn’t look for Dean.
I would also say it wasn’t in character for Sam to ever associate w/Ruby again after all her lies were exposed in S3, but that’s not the story Kripke wanted to tell so Sam was twisted to fit the plot IMO. I really don’t care how depressed Sam was, I can’t really see him associating w/Ruby after Dean’s death. That’s just me though.
And I’ll say that both attempts to explain Sam’s OOC actions were very weak b/c the efforts were minimal. IKWYDLS needed to be expanded. I needed much more than what we got so I could get in Sam’s headspace. And so much more needed to be done w/Sam’s POV this year that it’s pathetic.
Unfortunately, the writers were so interested in moving the plot along, they neglected Sam.
Write to writers and producers at twitter, ask them those questions, too I feel like they doesn’t even notice that there is something lacking and they think it is enough to show Dean’s side and Dean’s worry and Dean’s pain and Dean’s friend(s) and those friends even when they hurt Sam are still friends (Castiel) and Benny is something different where I think “huh why doesn’t Sam try to understand Dean’s friendship to a vampire?” well we know how Benny thinks and is coping BUT NOT OUR Sam, and Dean may have not told anything but Benny the better brother who never let him down!
Horrible horrible scenario for me, and I was really apalled by how tptb played this out!
Sam wouldn’t do this, not looking for Dean, only when he thinks Dean is dead and gone to heaven, but he didn’t know because there wasn’t a corpse!
I think this kind of telling the story is not doing good to the show, to Sam and to Dean. People complain about why Dean is still there to “comfort” Sam and so on, they doesn’t seem to see Sam’s side. And I say no wonder, because Sam’s side was one hell of weakly told! It hurt and damaged the character where a new showrunner took over who once wrote great brother centric episodes. And now he comes back and in one of his first interviews he says nobody is more interested in Dean/Castiel than him!!! (jaw drop)
I say now that MC is contracted as regular we might even get less Sam POV, but the last episodes were in that regard really good, okay and made me happy. It enriches the story of the brothers if both have insight and POV, valid POV. And if Sam is so quiet because his soul is so much damaged that he can’t trust anybody or can’t talk about his feelings it would be nice to get that shown by those writers, so we ALL know. And not with a hand wave or one sentence thrown at me!
[quote]
I don’t think that the writers deliberately write Sam to be disliked, but IMO there was some neglect there.
I think that the writing for Dean is generally character driven and the writing for Sam is more plot driven and it hurts the character.[/quote]
JulieG, I agree completely with your post. And I think your right that the writing for Sam tends to be more plot driven. And Dean is more character. Just like that prayer this week. That had very little connection to plot but gave us great insight into the character. I would like more of those moments for Sam.
[quote]Bamboo, I agree with your post, but in a tv show, there’s a way to get into the head of someone who has no friends and doesn’t talk much anymore.
For example, Dean says in his prayer to Cas that Sam is hurting, but all I saw was Sam spitting a bit of blood. The writers could have included a scene of Sam alone, visibly hurting.
In season 4, before Sam became completely desilusioned with the angels, he could have been shown praying to God, or confiding in a priest. Before he jumped into the pit, he could have written a letter like Dean did before saying yes to Michael.
The last few years, Sam could have kept a journal. Maybe someone (Garth, Cas, etc) could have found it and read it out loud.
And there are so many other ways to get to know an introvert, so I don’t accept that we get so little POV because Sam has been so beaten down that he pretty much keeps to himself. Actually, that’s heartbreaking when we think about it. The writers could also showcase his loneliness by having other characters noticing it or Dean asking him why he doesn’t reach out to people the same way anymore.
IMO, Sam has lost so much depth as a character during the last few years and it’s a sham .[/quote]
These are great examples! That’s why I say there’s no excuse for not giving us Sam’s POV. It can be done. The writers [i]choose[/i] to not do it for some reason.
Dean’s monologues in AHBL2, WIAWSB, and MBV are just a few examples of how POV can be shown. Has Sam ever had such a monologue? In 8 years, I think it occurred once in MTNB. That’s ridiculous!
I wondered if somehow that would tie in. But was the future in “The End” an illusion made by Zachariah screwing with Dean or was it a glimpse into a possible real future? Still not sure about that.
Leah,
There’s no way of knowing for sure, but I think it was just a possible future – everything Zachariah did was manipulation, done to try and turn the Winchesters on one another and/or make them say yes. Plus that whole ‘scape was based on the premise that Sam had said yes to Lucifer, who then laid waste to the earth. Lucifer is locked in the cage now, so that entire timeline/chain of events – if it was in fact real – has been entirely thwarted and changed.
Thanks Bamboo24!
I always assumed that the alternative realities/timeline were real in as much as all other things were equal (that is if everything he assumed had been true). And I kind of thought Zachariah, for all that he was a d*ck, had a point with the future world and also the Smith and Wesson episode. In a way l thought he helped (inadvertently, obviously).
I was thinking that too but the problem there is the heaven episode – that has two different potential causes – either the heaven in the supernatural universe is really, really, epically awful OR, as someone here described it, that was also all Zachariah messing with the guys to make Dean give in – in other words his alternative was a lie.
I can see how Zachariah could make it different for different situations but if heaven was a fake then how much can you believe the other realities?
The idea that heaven is just memorex was more or less confirmed in TMWWBK, when Cas said he like to visit the perfect Tuesday of an autistic man. However I’m certain that in DSOTM at least part of heaven HAD to be fake. At the end when Mary tells Dean how she hates him and then gets snuggly with Zachariah could not have been true. For one thing that was not a memory Dean had and since Ash said he couldn’t find Mary in heaven, I don’t think that version could have been anything except a construct that Zachariah made. Now as you say, if Zach could manipulate heaven, then he could easily manipulate the other alternate realities to do whatever he thought would make Dean say yes. The End I thought was a complete manipulation. It was designed to show Dean the worst possible outcome and it made little to no sense. Future Dean said he called to Michael and said yes multiple times. Michael later went back in time to keep the Apocalypse on track so he would not have given up. In reality, Lucifer offered to call off the fight, so I don’t think he would have destroyed all the angels and I can’t see why they would up and leave. The whole point was to make Dean think that Sam would say yes and the world would fall apart. It didn’t work because Zack really didn’t understand people, or at least he didn’t understand Dean.
It’s a Terrible Life was interesting. Zach purportedly created the scenario to prove to Dean that he was a hunter at heart. But Sam was the one who noticed that something was wrong and recruited Dean to help find out what. Dean wasn’t the one to decide to become a hunter first either, Sam was. Zach’s speech to Dean was that Dean was born to hunt was interesting because from the actions of Dean and Sam, Sam is the one who acted like a born hunter. Which doesn’t jibe with his sudden desire for normal in season 8 but whatever.
I do think that Zachariah was manipulating all the realities he created for Sam and Dean. I never felt that any of them were real. The sad part is that because of how The End was written, the audience was given the impression that Sam would simply fold and say yes to Lucifer. And once again, they gave no reason within that universe as to why he would do that. So we got another view that Sam was weak and would turn to evil, with no context.
Yeah, I have noticed that too. Sam is more plot driven & Dean is more character driven. IMO writers are just lazy to explore his character. feelings etc. We are just given Sam did this,Sam choose Ruby over Dean and these are the consequences. They never really try to show why he did this. Now I know many people speculated and guessed nicely those reasons.
One of the reason I come to this site to see the insightful reviews to gather information , character development which my poor brain can’t just decipher. I never rewatch so I miss some things. So for those of lesser philosopher (like me) would it kill them to just give a episode in Sam pov. Honestly Benny, Cas have their own pov why not Sammy? Is that too much ask? sry if I unintentionally offend someone but I am kinda frustrated with this.
It’s like watching a train wreck. Even though I know Sam is gonna be a pretty wallflower in season 9 I will still watch it and the curse the writers.