Let’s Speculate: “We Need To Talk About Kevin”

172 Comments

1. I got to say, I really liked it. It felt right. The goal of this episode was pretty clear, get the ball rolling for what’s to come in the upcoming season. There were no shocking reveals or tear jerking moments, just solid plotting and slowly unraveling mysteries. Kind of like what Revolution and Lost have done. They’re asking for fan patience, wait for things to start paying off.

   I too was skeptical about the rift between the brothers, but it seemed natural. They both just spent a very different year apart, and getting on the same page is something that’s going to have to happen gradually.

   Having said all that, holy mother of Sam’s hair. It’s just plain nuts! I love it. He didn’t try to tame it at all. It’s interesting though isn’t it, all the creatures and people he’s killed in his life, and he went nuts over almost killing a dog. I really think something isn’t typical with Sam. I wonder if more of that will be revealed later.

   I’m quite fascinated about where Dean and Benny’s relationship is going. I’m sure we’ll find out more when the Cas story is told next week.

   I got to admit, I found Jethro Tull’s “Locomotive Breath” a strange choice, but that’s a way better song than “Aqualung.” Styx’s “Man in the Wilderness” definitely took me back to my tween years when I wore out my Grand Illusion album (yes those things that go on something called record players). Now I have it on CD and it just doesn’t sound the same! Great choice though.

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2. Definitely a home run. Better than I had even hoped. It is going to be an amazing season. Jensen and Jared nailed it! Those two just get better and better every year. It is going to be hard to wait for each new episode. Can hardly wait to see Jensen’s. Gotta go watch it again!!

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3. I mostly enjoyed this episode, although, as is typical for Supernatural, it was a very plot-heavy season opener that I felt could have done with more emotional scenes and interesting/amusing moments, but after eight seasons I’m used to it.

   My favorite parts were definitely Kevin and Benny. I loved the development of Kevin’s character, and Benny seems like an interesting addition to the storyline. I loved all the unsaid implications of him calling Dean ‘brother’ and Dean being totally okay with it. That being said, I felt like Sam’s girlfriend had zero chemistry with him and frankly the acting didn’t impress me, but since she was only in two short scenes, I’ll hold my peace for now.

   Oddly, the most disappointing part for me was the music. While I love Styx, “Man in the Wilderness” was just a little too on point for me–a bit too literal and obvious, making the scene clunky. I was okay with “Locomotive Breath,” but just okay–I wish they’d done something a bit more iconic for the season opener.

   All in all, a solid but not fantastic season opener whose merit will be determined by how well the plot and character arcs it introduced are developed throughout the season.

   Happy Season Eight!

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4. Fabulous! I agree – they have lined everything up to draw us into the story. I love that the brothers each have their own stories from the past year that will be revealed as they work together. And this gives them a chance to reforge their family bond as they go forward. It will make for an entertaining season, I think. I totally agree with you on Dean – he just burned up the screen in this episode. My favorite part of your post – Kevin 2 Crowley 0. Classic! Before seeing it, I was a little worried about the Sam not looking for Dean thing, but after seeing the episode, I feel like he deserved to have a normal life for once and I do not think that makes him a bad person. I also think more is coming on his story, based on this episode, and am looking forward to that. Question – I know the joint from Don must be some pop culture reference that I am missing – can you spell it out for dumb me that is missing it?

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5. Liked and believed the Dean story and characterization. I find Benny to be an intriguing addition. I would love it if he were Dean’s Ruby, but Dean will never ever do anything really bad, so no real chance of that. Liked Kevin and his competence and drive. Really felt for him and his girlfriend.

   Then there is Sam. To say it is a sore spot is like saying Hell is slightly toasty. I found Sam to be totally OOC. I have watched the entire run. There has NEVER been an agreement to not look for the other brother. They have agreed to not use supernatural means to release the other brother from Hell or the Cage, but to not look at all? What if Dean had been blown a few states over and had amnesia? Would Sam not have at least tried to discover what had happened?

   After the spoilers I was hoping and praying that Sam put at least a cursory effort into making sure Dean was dead or completely irretrievable before going off to his happy life with a dog and a girl and once a year breaking out a beer and toasting “sucks to be you, Dean” on Dean’s birthday and on the day Dean disappeared. But instead Sam became the most selfish person ever He not only dropped Dean like a hot potato, but left Kevin to survive against demons, completely on his own. If Sam had at least listened to his stupid voice mails, maybe Kevin’s girlfriend would have had a chance. But no, Sam is completely selfish and self centered while Dean the good still cares about people and wants to save the world.

   Then there is Amelia. From the interviews I was expecting someone at least as likeable as Jo or even better Ellen or Jody. Instead she is a self-righteous jerk who berates Sam for bringing in a dog hi hit accidentally (she acts like he deliberately mowed the poor thing down). Then after a few hours of treatment she doesn’t even make an attempt to see if this well cared for dog actually HAS an owner and instead guilts a man who admits to being a transient AND to not having the resources to take care of a dog to take in a dog that is not his. An animal shelter wouldn’t have given Sam the dog, but a Vet berates him into taking the dog.

   The other problem with the Sam story is the Kevin issue. Yes, other hunters could handle monsters, but only Sam knew about Kevin. Leaving Kevin hanging and deliberately throwing away the only phone that Kevin had a number to reach Sam on, is selfish and cruel to an incredible degree. No other hunters knew about Kevin. Sam was literally Kevin’s only hope of help.

   The Dean story has enormous potential. The Kevin story is intriguing, although I personally would have preferred that Sam had been working with Kevin and trying to protect this vulnerable kid from demons and other threats. The take on Sam and his actions may well drive me away from this show permanently. It is so destructive to Sam’s character. He didn’t look for Dean. He didn’t seem that impressed that Dean had returned from the dead. Heck, he wasn’t that interested in spending time with Dean.

   I have sworn to give this season a chance, but this premier has made that promise very hard to keep. I am gutted and miserable about the cavalier way the writers decided that Sam was only worth destroying permanently . The one message I took from this episode is that Sam does not and never did truly care about Dean. And I am very nearly done.

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   1. I wouldn’t say Sam don’t care about Dean. Looking at the way Sam spiral out of control trying to save his brother even losing himself in the process.

      Now on this front I think they was trying to have Sam not go down that road. Sadly the way they put it has Sam come of all about himself.

      Sam and Dean are both hiding something, and I would really like to know who was standing outside of Amelia house in the dark when Sam left.

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   2. You of course have a right to your own feelings. I feel badly that you are so distraught though and want to share a bit of how I am approaching the Sam story, which I think is making it easier for me. If this helps you at all, great. If not, please ignore me. I just want to help you feel better, not start an argument.  We are all fans here. 

      I am not giving up on Sam based on one little episode and a miniscule part of his story from the past year.  I think what has helped me enjoy this is that to me these writers and actors are telling me the story and I am making an effort to not impose my own values and demands on who they should be, but trying to be open to watching them peel the onion  Also, to tell the truth, people in my life and me for that matter, don’t always do the “right” thing. I don’t think that makes us bad or that our character is destroyed. I think we are human and we are all works in progress.  I recommend giving it some time – at least half a season or enough time to really get the full story.  That being said, I appreciate your feelings, and I know we all have our own reactions. I hope this maybe helps you feel a little better.  If not, like I said, just ignore me – again, I am just a work in progress. 

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   3. I see what your saying, but honestly I kind of liked this Sam. He seemed more like Sam S1 or 2. Where what he felt was a little more open and on the surface. He been so introverted since S4 that I did find like appreciated seeing this old Sam again.

      I do wish that they would have had him look and just not been able to do anything, but let’s face it giving up easily so he had a year off isn’t much better. Besides (now I was horribly wrong last year, so I’m hesitant to express this) I got the impression that there was something more to the story. Like Alice pointed out he seemed really frantic over a dog after he had seen so much death. So I’m hoping there was some kind of breakdown that he had to recover from or something.

      Because I do think it OOC for Sam to not hunt for Dean unless he thought he was dead and in heaven. But I do like the end result of having a life for a year. And he doesn’t seem as hopeless as he did before. Last year they were just fighting because that’s what they do, neither seemed heavily invested. This year he has goals beyond hunting, I think that will actually help the character.

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      1. For me, the only way to salvage the damage done to Sam’s character by choosing this route is to write in some sort of mental breakdown for Sam. With Castiel gone, maybe his hallucinations came back in full force. Something is needed.

         I’ll still love Sam and won’t ever buy this whacky, OOC characterization for him but it would be nice if it weren’t made canon that Sam was too inept or uncaring to search for Dean or Kevin, esp. when he could have searched!

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         1. [quote]For me, the only way to salvage the damage done to Sam’s character by choosing this route is to write in some sort of mental breakdown for Sam. With Castiel gone, maybe his hallucinations came back in full force. Something is needed. [/quote]

            This I can get behind. Actually, one of my season 8 wishes is the continuation of the hellucination arc of season 7 which was poorly done. It’s very plausible and about time too.

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            1. [quote][quote]For me, the only way to salvage the damage done to Sam’s character by choosing this route is to write in some sort of mental breakdown for Sam. With Castiel gone, maybe his hallucinations came back in full force. Something is needed. [/quote]

               This I can get behind. Actually, one of my season 8 wishes is the continuation of the hellucination arc of season 7 which was poorly done. It’s very plausible and about time too.[/quote]

               Kaj, I would love for something to come of Sam’s Hell Wall story, esp. since it was so poorly handled last year! If they plan to continue it, I would be ecstatic!

   4. [quote]Then there is Sam. To say it is a sore spot is like saying Hell is slightly toasty. I found Sam to be totally OOC. I have watched the entire run. There has NEVER been an agreement to not look for the other brother. They have agreed to not use supernatural means to release the other brother from Hell or the Cage, but to not look at all? What if Dean had been blown a few states over and had amnesia? Would Sam not have at least tried to discover what had happened?

      After the spoilers I was hoping and praying that Sam put at least a cursory effort into making sure Dean was dead or completely irretrievable before going off to his happy life with a dog and a girl and once a year breaking out a beer and toasting “sucks to be you, Dean” on Dean’s birthday and on the day Dean disappeared. But instead Sam became the most selfish person ever He not only dropped Dean like a hot potato, but left Kevin to survive against demons, completely on his own. [b]If Sam had at least listened to his stupid voice mails, maybe Kevin’s girlfriend would have had a chance. But no, Sam is completely selfish and self centered[/b] while Dean the good still cares about people and wants to save the world.

      The other problem with the Sam story is the Kevin issue. Yes, other hunters could handle monsters, but only Sam knew about Kevin. Leaving Kevin hanging and deliberately throwing away the only phone that Kevin had a number to reach Sam on, is selfish and cruel to an incredible degree. No other hunters knew about Kevin. Sam was literally Kevin’s only hope of help.
      [/quote]

      Again, I wonder, if we can see this about Sam then why would the writers wrote Sam like this?
      I am not sure about the rest of the flashback in next episode. If the tone continue like this what’s the purpose of flashback? Once is enough. Sam’s selfish, ok, I get it. Not interested to see more of it.

      But, I have hope albeit very tiny that the next flashbacks will be different. I just don’t know how they’ll do it after this.

      Does the purpose of this plot is to teach Sam of selflessness? To teach him that his action of neglecting his phone and leaving the hunter world has caused people’s live in danger? That maybe if he stops acting selfish for once he could help those people like Kevin and his girlfriend? Don’t the writers think Sam had enough lessons for that?

      [quote]Then there is Amelia. From the interviews I was expecting someone at least as likeable as Jo or even better Ellen or Jody. Instead she is a self-righteous jerk who berates Sam for bringing in a dog hi hit accidentally (she acts like he deliberately mowed the poor thing down). Then after a few hours of treatment she doesn’t even make an attempt to see if this well cared for dog actually HAS an owner and instead guilts a man who admits to being a transient AND to not having the resources to take care of a dog to take in a dog that is not his. An animal shelter wouldn’t have given Sam the dog, but a Vet berates him into taking the dog.[/quote]

      No other girl live up to Jess, then. I personally like Sam and Jess. Other girls that came after her just seem to be wrong. I really hope Amelia is not a monster or witch.

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   5. Hi Percysowner. I can understand why you are not happy with Sam’s storyline. The way that it stands now with the little bits that they have been revealed, it does seem OOC. I love how invested you are in Sam’s as a character but did you really think he came off as completely uncaring in the premier? He didn’t seem that way to me, but I understand that perceptions are different from viewer to viewer. I didn’t find him selfish or uncaring so much as troubled and out of sorts, and this gives me hope that there is more going on than meets the eye regarding his story. I hope you’ll give the show some more time to reveal it’s endgame and I really, really hope that there is a satisfactory resolution to Sam’s story overall. I don’t feel like it’s in the shows best interests in the long run to make one of the brothers out to be selfish, uncaring, self absorbed and so unlikeable. Why would the writers do this? What purpose does it serve?

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      1. Oh, I’m giving it time. I planned to give it the entire season, but that may involve saving up episodes and marathoning if I ever get a hint that Sam has stopped being a douche.

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      2. [quote]Hi Percysowner. I can understand why you are not happy with Sam’s storyline. The way that it stands now with the little bits that they have been revealed, it does seem OOC. I love how invested you are in Sam’s as a character but did you really think he came off as completely uncaring in the premier? He didn’t seem that way to me, but I understand that perceptions are different from viewer to viewer. I didn’t find him selfish or uncaring so much as troubled and out of sorts, and this gives me hope that there is more going on than meets the eye regarding his story. I hope you’ll give the show some more time to reveal it’s endgame and I really, really hope that there is a satisfactory resolution to Sam’s story overall. I don’t feel like it’s in the shows best interests in the long run to make one of the brothers out to be selfish, uncaring, self absorbed and so unlikeable. Why would the writers do this? What purpose does it serve?[/quote]

         Hi E, I’m going to jump in here and add my two cents. Sam retiring from hunting = ok. Sam not looking for Dean = ok. Sam out OOC enough to NOT give a shit about any HUMAN being = FAIL. The look on Sam’s face when Dean played all Kevin’s messages was blank, not a shred of EMPATHY (which is Sam’s middle name). The other point that keeps this episode from being perfect was how they wrote Amelia. She came across as an obnoxious bitch. I want Sam to have relationships outside of Dean – a girlfriend, wife or even a boyfriend (!). But the way she treated Sam was ridiculous and I have zero liking or interest in Amelia. I am NOT giving up on SPN. I waited thru the crapstorm of Seasons 6 and 7. I’ll wait thru the Sam stuff too.

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      3. Sadly, E, Sam, IMO, did come off as selfish and uncaring. The entire reunion was anti-climatic, and Sam didn’t seem to particularly care how Dean had survived or what Dean had been doing. It was all very weird!

         Sam was very “off” to me. So much so that I wonder if he has his own secret. If he doesn’t, then I will forever think JC ruined the foundation of the show: the bond between Sam and Dean! You can’t have a bond if only one brother is willing to sacrifice everything for the other. We need to see Sam make some sacrifices too. It needs to be much more upfront and obvious than what we saw in IKWYDLS and TMWKTM

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         1. lala2, yes I agree, Sam was ‘off’ and ‘weird’ and any other thing you might want to throw in there, which I take as further proof that something else is going on. Sam is hiding something. He was acting like a man who was scared, a man who was trying to play things cool and not reveal anything, a man who already knew Dean was back and wan’t that surprised to see him. He’s being watched, we know that much. Did you notice how interested Sam was in WHERE Kevin hid the most recent WORD OF GOD? That stuck out at me as a kind of tell on Sam’s part. So, just what he’s up to remains to be seen, but I sure hope that whatever it is, it won’t show him in an even worse light than he’s being reflected in now. That would seriously bum me out.

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   6. [quote]Liked and believed the Dean story and characterization. I find Benny to be an intriguing addition. I would love it if he were Dean’s Ruby, but Dean will never ever do anything really bad, so no real chance of that. Liked Kevin and his competence and drive. Really felt for him and his girlfriend.

      Then there is Sam. To say it is a sore spot is like saying Hell is slightly toasty. I found Sam to be totally OOC. I have watched the entire run. There has NEVER been an agreement to not look for the other brother. They have agreed to not use supernatural means to release the other brother from Hell or the Cage, but to not look at all? What if Dean had been blown a few states over and had amnesia? Would Sam not have at least tried to discover what had happened?

      After the spoilers I was hoping and praying that Sam put at least a cursory effort into making sure Dean was dead or completely irretrievable before going off to his happy life with a dog and a girl and once a year breaking out a beer and toasting “sucks to be you, Dean” on Dean’s birthday and on the day Dean disappeared. But instead Sam became the most selfish person ever He not only dropped Dean like a hot potato, but left Kevin to survive against demons, completely on his own. If Sam had at least listened to his stupid voice mails, maybe Kevin’s girlfriend would have had a chance. But no, Sam is completely selfish and self centered while Dean the good still cares about people and wants to save the world.

      Then there is Amelia. From the interviews I was expecting someone at least as likeable as Jo or even better Ellen or Jody. Instead she is a self-righteous jerk who berates Sam for bringing in a dog hi hit accidentally (she acts like he deliberately mowed the poor thing down). Then after a few hours of treatment she doesn’t even make an attempt to see if this well cared for dog actually HAS an owner and instead guilts a man who admits to being a transient AND to not having the resources to take care of a dog to take in a dog that is not his. An animal shelter wouldn’t have given Sam the dog, but a Vet berates him into taking the dog.

      The other problem with the Sam story is the Kevin issue. Yes, other hunters could handle monsters, but only Sam knew about Kevin. Leaving Kevin hanging and deliberately throwing away the only phone that Kevin had a number to reach Sam on, is selfish and cruel to an incredible degree. No other hunters knew about Kevin. Sam was literally Kevin’s only hope of help.

      The Dean story has enormous potential. The Kevin story is intriguing, although I personally would have preferred that Sam had been working with Kevin and trying to protect this vulnerable kid from demons and other threats. The take on Sam and his actions may well drive me away from this show permanently. It is so destructive to Sam’s character. He didn’t look for Dean. He didn’t seem that impressed that Dean had returned from the dead. Heck, he wasn’t that interested in spending time with Dean.

      I have sworn to give this season a chance, but this premier has made that promise very hard to keep. I am gutted and miserable about the cavalier way the writers decided that Sam was only worth destroying permanently . The one message I took from this episode is that Sam does not and never did truly care about Dean. And I am very nearly done.[/quote]

      Wonderful post, Percy! I only disagree with your second to last sentence. No matter how much the writers trash Sam, I will personally never buy into this idea they’re selling that Sam didn’t care enough about Dean to look for him. That is flat out OOC behavior. Sam would look for Dean; we all know he would. It’s a shame the writers don’t understand this.

      And I though I wouldn’t care about Kevin Tran, but those messages were just sad. Sam really did Kevin wrong. He was definitely presented as selfish and uncaring. That’s not who Sam is so either the writers have a twist planned or they don’t understand his character at all. Sadly, I fear it’s the latter but hope it’s the former!

      As far as the episode is concerned, it was simply okay. I admit to being slightly bored during parts. I missed the very beginning of Sam and Dean’s conversation at that church b/c I had flipped the station and started watching something else.

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      1. [quote]No matter how much the writers trash Sam, I will personally never buy into this idea they’re selling that Sam didn’t care enough about Dean to look for him. That is flat out OOC behavior. Sam would look for Dean; we all know he would. It’s a shame the writers don’t understand this.

         And I though I wouldn’t care about Kevin Tran, but those messages were just sad. Sam really did Kevin wrong. He was definitely presented as selfish and uncaring. That’s not who Sam is so either the writers have a twist planned or they don’t understand his character at all. Sadly, I fear it’s the latter but hope it’s the former!
         [/quote]

         I really hope the writers have a twist planned, because otherwise I cannot see what could possible have motivated them to destroy/betray Sam’s character and the bond the brothers share in this way. I find it hard to believe that the writers actually think Sam would behave this way. So I have to hope there is more to it.

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         1. [quote][quote]No matter how much the writers trash Sam, I will personally never buy into this idea they’re selling that Sam didn’t care enough about Dean to look for him. That is flat out OOC behavior. Sam would look for Dean; we all know he would. It’s a shame the writers don’t understand this.

            And I though I wouldn’t care about Kevin Tran, but those messages were just sad. Sam really did Kevin wrong. He was definitely presented as selfish and uncaring. That’s not who Sam is so either the writers have a twist planned or they don’t understand his character at all. Sadly, I fear it’s the latter but hope it’s the former!
            [/quote]

            I really hope the writers have a twist planned, because otherwise I cannot see what could possible have motivated them to destroy/betray Sam’s character and the bond the brothers share in this way. I find it hard to believe that the writers actually think Sam would behave this way. So I have to hope there is more to it.[/quote]

            Me too. But I fear there may not be since the writers have created this non-existent rule btw Sam and Dean to NOT look for each other. Don’t the writers know that’s not true? Hasn’t anyone told JC the boys don’t have that illogical, stupid rule? The rule is don’t kill yourself, sell your soul, or take up with supernatural baddies to resurrect your seemingly “dead” brother.

            Here, Sam says he didn’t know where Dean was so he didn’t bother to look. That’s just awful. What’s even worse to me for some reason is Kevin’s predicament. I didn’t care much about him last season, and I successfully blocked much of the finale from my mind – but hearing those pleas for help were really sad. It made Sam look even worse and more selfish than he already did.

            The part of me that loves the bond btw these brothers is desperate to believe the writers wouldn’t – intentionally, unknowingly, it doesn’t really matter which – completely destroy the root of the show. But there’s another part of me that understands the writers may not see this as destructive to Sam or the brother’s relationship so there may not be a twist. I’m prepared to assume Sam has been destroyed for whatever reason.

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      2. [quote]I missed the very beginning of Sam and Dean’s conversation at that church b/c I had flipped the station and started watching something else.[/quote]

         Hi, lala2 it goes something like this.

         Dean : Okay if this kid is right he’s sitting in a bombshell. Hell, he is the bombshell.
         Sam: (looking away)
         Dean: what?
         Sam: That. I mean there’s no way Kevin’s getting out of this intact is there?
         Dean: Well, I think he’s doing pretty well for himself so far.
         Sam: Yeah, he got out.
         Dean: And now he’s in it… whether he likes it or not.
         Sam: So, free will that’s only for you?
         Dean: I can’t believe what I am hearing. Sam, we have an opportunity to wipe the state clean. We take Kevin to the tablet, he tells us the spell, we send every demon back to hell – forever. Every single bastard that destroyed our lives. killed our mother, killed Jess. And you’re not sure?

         Hope it helps. 😀

         From what I see even after Sam knows that Kevin’s live is in danger he is still reluctant to help him. Even if Kevin leave the tablet business behind (after all he hid it in a safe place) and not trying to follow the God’s advise to close the hell’s gate forever. What’s the odd that Crowley will leave him alive? And Sam still want to walk out of this. Just ask Kevin to drop it all and live normal live just like what he did with the vet doc?

         I start to believe that Sam’s not right in the head for not seeing that.

         Right then and there. I think he almost going to say that he will bow out. That talk about free will? Even if Kevin wants to go free, he can’t. Because Demons are after him. There’s no free will in this matter because Dean’s right. Kevin is in it no matter if he wants it or not. He’s a freaking bombshell. Kevin wants out he’s dead. Kevin wants in he’s screwed. Every way you look at, Kevin is screwed. And Sam wants to bow out? His talk about free will is bull. He knows that’s not the case here.

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         1. Thanks, Kaj! So, it wasn’t just me who felt Sam was completely uninterested in the whole venture? He seemed hesitant to embark on this mission. I thought this mission was supposed to be something both brothers were invested in, but Sam didn’t seem to care all that much!

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            1. [quote]Thanks, Kaj! So, it wasn’t just me who felt Sam was completely uninterested in the whole venture? He seemed hesitant to embark on this mission. I thought this mission was supposed to be something both brothers were invested in, but Sam didn’t seem to care all that much![/quote]

               Sam would not do that. I know. Because season 1,2,3 Sam would not. Even Season 4 Sam who was all gung-ho of teaching Adam how to shot was doing that to protect Adam. Weird is the word this season.

               I keep wondering what this Free Will that Sam was talking about. Is it free will to just let the tablet go, giving it to Crowley? Letting Crowley destroy it?

6. Ehhh…I had mixed feelings. They set up the season-long arc about closing the gates of hell very well. That’s quite a prize to dangle in front of their noses. Less successful, as feared, was Sam’s story. Carver has said that the season will deal a lot with perception, and I accept that what we see right now is unlikely to be the full story. Sam’s failure to challenge Dean’s anger is an indication that while what Sam does say may be true as far as it goes, he’s still holding back. Where the story fails so far is in its lack of gravity as compared to Dean’s. Dean’s flashbacks are full of intriguing, primal, mysterious purgatorial goings-on. Sam’s are…hitting the neighborhood stray. Maybe these scenes will mean something somewhere down the road, but within this episode, they’re ludicrously slight by comparison.

   Kevin is cute as a bug, but I’m not sold on the transformation of the naive, sheltered kid into a devious genius who can beat Crowley twice over. Forced characterization or clue that something’s not right?

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7. I loved the episode. I stood and paced the entire hour. I think there are a LOT of things to come as the onion is peeled. Both have some secrets to share for sure. I love the brothers.

   I predict many super Sam fans are not happy. But I can see how they came to this Sam. He seems very sad. Everyone can have ups and downs and he has been through a lot in his short life. Breakdowns are not a sign of weakness. Coping is different for everyone. It doesn’t mean he can’t come back from it. Give the show a chance. Admittedly, it is sad to watch a character you love appear to be in a bad place. But that’s what I love about this show. One can’t help but ‘feel’ for these characters. Jared and Jensen make them sooooo real.

   Remember, they are 30 and over now. Men will relate differently as they age. Doesn’t mean they don’t still care deeply. I just see so many possibilities for renewal, forgiveness and growth in their characters. It’s inevitable that we all grow up and change. Looking at things differently after living, with more wisdom and sometimes clarity. Let’s watch it play out. No one’s relationship stays the same throughout life. Can’t wait for next week.

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8. One of my wish for season 8 at least comes true.
   Feral and Ruthless Dean! So HOT!

   Makes me wish they make Sam soulless again so we have TWO scorching HOT guys on TV.

   I am not going to talk about Sam this time. Nope. Because it makes me so sad and heartbroken. I’d like to enjoy both brothers but it seems I have to breathe with one lung instead of two from now on. It’s difficult and tasking but I’ll live.

   By the way, Kevin is smart. No wonder he is in advance placements. He reminds me of early years Sam who is resourceful and smart too. I wonder where that Sam go, his smarts seems to be transferred to Kevin.

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9. I believe that the reason Sam did not look for Dean or Kevin or help to find them was that he does have a form of PTSD.
   He has lost everyone he loves, he has no family left, he has been in the same war that Dean has been in and has maintained his sense of optimism (in the sense that he continues fighting without drugs or alcohol-he does not give up), so when “the end” of his family (Dean) happens, he loses his will to go on.
   As Sam said, he just drove around. A pretty strong clue that his wandering was aimless, like his life/goal/reason was at that time.
   I will wait and watch the story unfold about the Vet and her tactics to get Sam to take the injured dog.
   Loved the acting by Jared and Jensen-very well done. Good story with a lot of potential. Surprised how fast the hour long (44 minute)episode went by-sometimes I wish the episodes were 1 1/2 hours long or 2 hours long. I get involved and I just don’t want it to end.

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   1. The problem with Sam having PTSD is that ship sailed season ago. What with Soulless!Sam and then the wall and then Castiel’s insta-cure. Sam’s PTSD is long forgotten. And if you are talking about PTSD from losing Dean, well Dean lived though Purgatory, so Sam’s issues pale in comparison. Like season four, there was no point in showing that Dean’s death broke Sam because Dean had it so much worse.

      Reply

   2. [quote]I believe that the reason Sam did not look for Dean or Kevin or help to find them was that he does have a form of PTSD…… he loses his will to go on.
      [/quote] Very possible explanation for them writing Sam so uncaring. I had a brief feeling that Amelia has something to do with Sam’s new “I don’t give a shit about anyone” attitude. As if Amelia is just a new version of Ruby.

      Reply

10. I could go with PSTD I could go with being ‘sad’ but I dont know where we stand with Sam’s post Castiel miracle fix? so I dont know for sure what the reason is. I can’t regardless of depression and any other emotions that the Sam I have watched would just not bother to look for his brother not even rise the slightest finger and one who would leave a 17 yr old boy to his fate and cut off the only means of access that boy has for help because Sam was all he knew and had nobody else.

    So unless Jeremy Carver has the biggest rabbit out of the hat up his sleeve then Sam has been made to look like a arse for no other reason that it is the way they decided to go.
    The potential of the other sl’s is obvious but Sam’s well that is a question mark for me.

    Reply

11. No doubt- some parts of this were painful to watch, as in- they sure love ripping my heart to bits. But that is what makes great drama, and this was a fantastic episode. If they keep up this level, this might be the best season of SPN yet.
    Yeah for season Gr8!

    Reply

12. I’m really excited about this episode and hope the season can bring out its potential.

    Love this take on Dean. It has a lot of potential for great storyline. His relationship with this vampire is both really creepy and completely fascinating. And it actually answers two of my wishes for last season. That the monster story that ultimately went no where last season be addressed this season(and I still say it was an arc even if no one saw it but me. So there. 😕 Ha) and related that Dean’s apathy and his going through the motions have meaning as well. It looks as if this storyline will tie back to a lot of his problems last year. So Yay!

    So while I don’t want to keep this Dean, he a great place to visit for a while.

    And I see potential for a great brother storyline as well. (although that might have been my least favorite brother hug- I think Dean and Bennie might have been better- which is sad and creepy). Full of anger and drama. Their personalities have never seem further apart. I hoping this means they can deal with a lot of issues this season in a fairly organic to the plot way. As long as it doesn’t lead to them ultimately being even further apart. I can see we are headed for a hard road ahead, which is fine, potentially great, but I do want them closer in the end.

    And all that storyline is at least partially possible because Sam took a year off and didn’t look for Dean. SAM TOOK A YEAR OFF AND DIDN’T LOOK FOR DEAN! That’s just crazy. I caved after this episode and looked up some of the Carver’s and Singer’s interviews about the season. It definitely looks as if there is more to the story. I really hope there is more to the story or at least an episode where we understand where Sam’s head was at. I personally am hoping for a complete breakdown that could explain a lot. But either way it wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me, because I like this new Sam so far.

    Actually to me, it’s more like old Sam (that was another of my wishes as well). He didn’t seem as harden and introverted. Not that he was a open book, just less than he had been maybe. Where this is going to go as far as his storyline, I don’t know. But I personally would be happy if he used the fact that he was in a better place mentally to bring Dean back from whatever state he’s in. Did anyone else notice Sam was using his hacking skills again? That’s good.

    Love Kevin. But hate that they killed his girlfriend. And I REALLY wanted Sam to talk to him about it to contrast Dean’s dickhead scolding. After all who could understand better than Sam, losing a girlfriend to demons because you are the chosen one. And it would have shown that Sam taking a year off did have its advantages, if he was able to distance himself more from the fight and see the person. But cie la vie.

    So I very excited for the year, but a little hesitantly after last year’s arc didn’t live up to their potentially with me. But already several things on my wish list look like they are going to be dealt with so it’s looking good.

    Reply

13. There was some good stuff in this ep, but I cannot and will never get past the fact that Sam didn’t even look for Dean, or try to find Kevin. That is so off-the-reservation, jump-the-shark, ‘have the writers ever watched this show’ out of character for Sam that……well…..I don’t know what to say. Gutted – yes. Hugely disappointed – an understatement. Appalled at the dreadful writing – absolutely.

    What were they thinking? Sam came off so unsympathetic it would be hard for anyone tuning in for the first time to buy him as one of our heroes. But that is so unfair on his character. He is not the man we saw on our screens last night and that makes me sad.

    If anyone has any hope to offer me then please feel free. I need it. But don’t give me any of this stuff I’ve seen touted around that just doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny eg
    – ‘he had no leads’. He did. And if there wasn’t much to go on that is a reason for failing to save Dean, not a reason not to try
    – ‘they’d promised each other they wouldn’t look’. 1 – they didn’t, 2- they didn’t mean it anyway, 3 – Sam had always looked every other time he lost Dean
    – ‘Sam wanted a normal life’. Irrelevant and if true is a reason to give up hunting AFTER he had looked for Dean not before
    – ‘Sam wasn’t as committed to hunting as Dean’. Probably true but again, not a reason to not look for Dean
    – ‘he had a breakdown’. Maybe but there is nothing to suggest that as yet.
    – ‘this is typical of Sam. He isn’t like Dean’. Not true. In MS, in IKWYDLS, even as recently as TaT Sam moved heaven and earth to save his brother.
    – ‘it is a sign of maturity’. No it is a sign of cowardice and selfishness – neither of which are features of Sam’s personality. Giving up on someone you love is not a sign of personal growth. And don’t forget he didn’t just abandon Dean, he abandoned Kevin. Kevin was an innocent 17 year old boy with immense power who Sam left with the King of Hell to use and abuse in his world domination plans.

    I am not usually a negative poster, nor am I an outspoken critic of the show. I have always tried to follow where the writers have led me and, by and large (s4 and early s6 being the exceptions) been happy with where we have ended up. But I cannot accept their version of events here, and I’m not sure I can get past it.

    I liked other things about the premiere. The objective of closing the gates of hell is great. Prospect of lots of Crowley is excellent. I loved Kevin – fab addition to the show. As always the acting, sets, music, lighting etc were top quality.

    BUT I hate the time jump (nothing personal – I hate ALL time jumps in storytelling). I am not at all interested in what happened in Purgatory or Sam’s dog/girl next door frolics. These are separate stories which don’t interest me. And I am fairly indifferent to what happened to Cas.

    So all in all I am going into s8 the least enthusuastic and positive I have ever been which, as someone who is usually a VERY happy SPN camper, is not a good place to start.

    They are saying all is not as it seems. All I can say is ‘it better not be’ because how it seems is out of character, and a betrayal of the bond between the brothers that is part of the DNA of the show.

    Reply

    1. [quote]There was some good stuff in this ep, but I cannot and will never get past the fact that Sam didn’t even look for Dean, or try to find Kevin. That is so off-the-reservation, jump-the-shark, ‘have the writers ever watched this show’ out of character for Sam that……well…..I don’t know what to say. Gutted – yes. Hugely disappointed – an understatement. Appalled at the dreadful writing – absolutely.

       What were they thinking? Sam came off so unsympathetic it would be hard for anyone tuning in for the first time to buy him as one of our heroes. But that is so unfair on his character. He is not the man we saw on our screens last night and that makes me sad.

       If anyone has any hope to offer me then please feel free. I need it. But don’t give me any of this stuff I’ve seen touted around that just doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny eg
       – ‘he had no leads’. He did. And if there wasn’t much to go on that is a reason for failing to save Dean, not a reason not to try
       – ‘they’d promised each other they wouldn’t look’. 1 – they didn’t, 2- they didn’t mean it anyway, 3 – Sam had always looked every other time he lost Dean
       – ‘Sam wanted a normal life’. Irrelevant and if true is a reason to give up hunting AFTER he had looked for Dean not before
       – ‘Sam wasn’t as committed to hunting as Dean’. Probably true but again, not a reason to not look for Dean
       – ‘he had a breakdown’. Maybe but there is nothing to suggest that as yet.
       – ‘this is typical of Sam. He isn’t like Dean’. Not true. In MS, in IKWYDLS, even as recently as TaT Sam moved heaven and earth to save his brother.
       – ‘it is a sign of maturity’. No it is a sign of cowardice and selfishness – neither of which are features of Sam’s personality. Giving up on someone you love is not a sign of personal growth. And don’t forget he didn’t just abandon Dean, he abandoned Kevin. Kevin was an innocent 17 year old boy with immense power who Sam left with the King of Hell to use and abuse in his world domination plans.

       I am not usually a negative poster, nor am I an outspoken critic of the show. I have always tried to follow where the writers have led me and, by and large (s4 and early s6 being the exceptions) been happy with where we have ended up. But I cannot accept their version of events here, and I’m not sure I can get past it.

       I liked other things about the premiere. The objective of closing the gates of hell is great. Prospect of lots of Crowley is excellent. I loved Kevin – fab addition to the show. As always the acting, sets, music, lighting etc were top quality.

       BUT I hate the time jump (nothing personal – I hate ALL time jumps in storytelling). I am not at all interested in what happened in Purgatory or Sam’s dog/girl next door frolics. These are separate stories which don’t interest me. And I am fairly indifferent to what happened to Cas.

       So all in all I am going into s8 the least enthusuastic and positive I have ever been which, as someone who is usually a VERY happy SPN camper, is not a good place to start.

       They are saying all is not as it seems. All I can say is ‘it better not be’ because how it seems is out of character, and a betrayal of the bond between the brothers that is part of the DNA of the show.[/quote]

       Yes, Sam has been written dreadfully here. Which has made me feel very much less than enthusiastic about S8.

       I will give it a few more episodes to see what happens with Sam, but I am terribly disappointed in Carver right now.

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    2. [quote] If anyone has any hope to offer me then please feel free. I need it. But don’t give me any of this stuff I’ve seen touted around that just doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny eg
       – ‘he had no leads’. He did. And if there wasn’t much to go on that is a reason for failing to save Dean, not a reason not to try
       – ‘they’d promised each other they wouldn’t look’. 1 – they didn’t, 2- they didn’t mean it anyway, 3 – Sam had always looked every other time he lost Dean
       – ‘Sam wanted a normal life’. Irrelevant and if true is a reason to give up hunting AFTER he had looked for Dean not before
       – ‘Sam wasn’t as committed to hunting as Dean’. Probably true but again, not a reason to not look for Dean
       – ‘he had a breakdown’. Maybe but there is nothing to suggest that as yet.
       – ‘this is typical of Sam. He isn’t like Dean’. Not true. In MS, in IKWYDLS, even as recently as TaT Sam moved heaven and earth to save his brother.
       – ‘it is a sign of maturity’. No it is a sign of cowardice and selfishness – neither of which are features of Sam’s personality. Giving up on someone you love is not a sign of personal growth. And don’t forget he didn’t just abandon Dean, he abandoned Kevin. Kevin was an innocent 17 year old boy with immense power who Sam left with the King of Hell to use and abuse in his world domination plans.[/quote]

       Geordiegirl, these are great points! As you already know, I couldn’t agree more w/you. Short of Sam actually searching or having some massive mental breakdown, there is ZERO excuse for him not even attempting to look for Dean or Kevin. There’s just no excuse for it, and it paints Sam in a horrible light. I love Sam, and he seemed very selfish and uncaring to me. But he also seemed “off” too. But that could be the OOC characterization, and Jared trying to get a handle on what motivated Sam to essentially give Dean and Kevin the middle finger.

       [quote]I am not usually a negative poster, nor am I an outspoken critic of the show.[/quote]

       Please don’t apologize for not having positive feelings about the writing. I don’t understand this idea that if you aren’t happy w/the writing or the direction of the show, you’re a “bad” fan. It’s perfectly fine.

       I honestly thought this would be a show that would never have a bad season, and then S5 happened. It wasn’t awful by any means, but it wasn’t good, esp. w/Sam’s arc. For me, the show rebounded in S6. I quite enjoyed SS. The second half wasn’t as good as the first half, IMO, but it was much better than S5. But then S7 happened, and that, for me, is the WORST season of Supernatural ever pinned. So, I’m back to thinking all shows – except for shows like L&O: SVU – have a shelf life.

       [quote]I am not at all interested in what happened in Purgatory or Sam’s dog/girl next door frolics. These are separate stories which don’t interest me. And I am fairly indifferent to what happened to Cas. [/quote]

       I must say I agree, which is probably why I was slightly bored during the premiere. The stuff w/Dean in Purgatory is somewhat interesting but seeing him running through the forest didn’t do much for me. Sam’s FBs were, of course, much more mundane. I’ve never clamored for romance on this show, so I’m not at all interested in Sam’s relationship w/Amelia who seemed bitchy and annoying.

       The premiere wasn’t awful, but it also wasn’t the best premiere I’ve seen of this show. It was simply okay to me. It certainly didn’t excite me for the rest of the season, but maybe that will change as we see more episodes.

       Reply

14. There is no doubt that this episode gave a kick ass start to the new season but like others I too was seriously disappointed about Sam leaving hunting and ditching Kevin. I don’t know what the writers are thinking but Sam not looking out for Dean is seriously wrong. I know that some people think that Dean also did the same thing by leaving hunting in Season 6 but it was different. Dean did that because Sam asked him to but by his own choice he wanted to die or search for ways to bring back Sam (as told by Chuck in the end of Season 5). Plus, he never gave up on Sam, he tried the whole year to bust him out and Sam didn’t even tried once. That’s so unlike his character. I am neither a Dean girl or a Sam girl, I love both the characters but Sam quitting hunting and giving up on Dean is not a good story line.
    [quote]Again, I wonder, if we can see this about Sam then why would the writers wrote Sam like this?
    I am not sure about the rest of the flashback in next episode. If the tone continue like this what’s the purpose of flashback? Once is enough. Sam’s selfish, ok, I get it. Not interested to see more of it.
    [/quote] I absolutely agree with Kaj, I mean I get it Sam was selfish but I don’t want to see it again and again..its just painful to watch Sam living an apple pie life and not looking out for Dean. Also, I hated Amelia, something was just off between Sam and her. I think I agree with Kaj on this one as well. I can’t picture Sam along with any other girl, it always would be Jess for me.

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    1. [quote]Also, I hated Amelia, something was just off between Sam and her.[/quote]

       I know, right? Dreadful acting aside, she somehow just hits all sorts of warning bell in my head.
       Dean-Benny and Sam-Amelia feels just as weird. It is the same food just different taste.

       I wonder if Amelia had a deal with Benny. There got to be something working behind the screen. Could be Crowley?

       Here’s another plot twist. Crowley wants Kevin for his own gain but he did not want Sam to interfere. Thus, comes in Amelia to get Sam’s attention elsewhere.
       From all purgatory residents, Benny is the only monster who knows the spell? How old is he anyway? I bet many older monster exist there. I sense Benny works his own agenda here.
       If he only wants out. Then after Dean let him out he will free to roam the earth. Go separate way. He and Dean seems to have an agreement about settling the debt just that.
       But he calls Dean again days later. Fishy.

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    2. But you know we don’t actually ‘know’ anything, we know what Sam SAYS but that isn’t necessarily true. In fact the one thing that he has said that is also shown in flashbacks, is actually NOT true (unless I misheard what Sam said) He said ‘I hit her dog’ it wasn’t her dog, it was a stray. I think that maybe some of what he is saying about wanting to be out is true but there is something else going on.
       It could be that the dog got hit as a result of Sam doing something hunting (or searching) related and he had a meltdown.
       Just a thought.

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15. You know, after watching the premiere, [i]I[/i] was even a little uncomfortable with all the heat Sam took, not just from Dean, but also from the animal vet. This did not feel like lazy writing. It felt purposeful, not in a malicious way (I still think the accusations against the writers about not liking Sam are absurd), but in order to set up a plot/character point. And Sam didn’t even try to defend himself, other than one snapping “so free will only works for you, is that it?” It left me with the firm and distinct impression that something else was going on, and there is certainly more to the story. Who WAS standing outside of the house Sam left? Why did Sam tell Dean there wasn’t a girl, when he’d just left one sleeping in that bed? Why was Sam so insistent on knowing, not only if Cas had died, but if Dean was sure of it? Why did Sam just not answer when Dean asked if he looked for him – could it be because he actually did, that there’s something he’s hiding? I also felt there was a lacking of emotion from Sam, considering he allegedly thought Dean was dead – perhaps he really knew his brother had been back? There seems to be a lot of complex issues at play under the surface, and I’m looking forward to watching it all unfold. I think those who are concerned should keep in mind that this episode was setting up the rest of the season – we don’t have all the details yet on either Winchester’s past year. I still believe Sam quit hunting because everyone was gone and think that was in-character, but there’s definitely more to his story, and I can’t wait to see it fleshed out.

    Re: Dean
    I’m not sure I like his new harshness, but I’ll role with it. I get the PTSD, and appreciate it. I was a little bothered by how much he seemed to be channeling John Winchester in his treatment of Sam and Kevin, as well as his mentions of “mom” “Jess” and “the family business” – things that haven’t really been on the table since S1-2. I’m a little worried about continuity, but am still on board. Benny seemed like a strong, truly enigmatic character. Good stuff.

    Overall, I thought it was a strong opener that left many question to be answered for the rest of the season. I’m glad the show’s back on the air. 🙂

    Reply

    1. As someone who tends to feel defensive toward Sam’s character and often touchy towards plot elements that seem to cast Sam in a bad light, I actually really agree with you on this. The writing did seem purposeful and not lazy at all or like they were making Sam look bad and OOC for no reason. As a matter of fact, I felt that Sam is perhaps hiding things from Dean more than Dean is hiding things from Sam at the moment. There seems to be a deliberate building up of perceptions that will later come crashing down. The season opener has left me intrigued and hopeful that we will get logical and satisfying character development for both brothers.

       I guess mileage varies, but I liked the John-like attitude that Dean is showing. I think after the trauma he has suffered it’s not unreasonable to assume that he would channel his hero, his Dad, whose traits are familiar and strong in Dean. I like this type throwback to earlier seasons. I feel like it helps with character depth and continuity to remind us where the characters came from and that even years later, they still carry those formative trait around with them.

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       1. Just jumping in to say I agree with E and Bamboo24 here.

          There is something going on with Sam that is not obvious and while at the moment he seems in a bad light for not even answering Kevin’s calls or looking for Dean, there is more and we will gradually learn it (I hope) as the season goes on. It’s a relief to see him not burdened with Lucifer hallucinations. (loved Mark Pellegrino, but was really tired of him bugging Sam constantly). I really wish for Sammy to be more Sam like than in the last 4 seasons.

          I’m loving the tough Dean right now. (his poor new leather jacket is the worse for wear) and appreciate he has gotten over his funk even though it took Purgatory to get him there. Hope he mellows a little in the future, but right now I’m glad not to see him in his disturbing depression of last season and seems to have his fighting spirit back.

          So I believe both brothers have things they haven’t revealed to each other, for various reasons. And that doesn’t even include what the heck happened to Cas!

          So glad our show is back!!! 😛

          Reply

          1. If I want to delete a comment altogether how do I do it? Basically this comment was pretty much what cd28 said below (and they said it better :D)

             Reply

             1. I had to disable deleting comments, even with admins. I found a very nasty bug with our commenting system where if you delete a comment and there are comments under it, the entire thread is wiped out. As in deleted from our database. I’ve had to reconstruct a few threads using email notifications because of this. I’m currently looking for a new commenting system!

             2. Ok, well I will try to be less indecisive then 😀 I tend to second-guess my comments.

    2. I completely hated the characterization of Sam in this episode and agree with some other comments that if this is what we’re left with, then Sam is being rewritten again completely out of character.

       But I do agree with you that there’s probably more going on here. I wonder if Sam made some kind of deal with Crowley, about something bigger than the fate of Dean and Kevin, and Sam’s part of the deal was that he abondon his search for Dean and Kevin?

       Another possibility is that Sam has been in contact with Cas – maybe telepathically, since angels have been shown to have the ability to visit people in their dreams. Maybe Cas warned Sam off a certain path, and it was Cas who told Sam that Dean was in the cabin, and it was Cas who was outside Sam’s house.

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       1. [quote]I completely hated the characterization of Sam in this episode and agree with some other comments that if this is what we’re left with, then Sam is being rewritten again completely out of character.

          But I do agree with you that there’s probably more going on here. I wonder if Sam made some kind of deal with Crowley, about something bigger than the fate of Dean and Kevin, and Sam’s part of the deal was that he abondon his search for Dean and Kevin?

          Another possibility is that Sam has been in contact with Cas – maybe telepathically, since angels have been shown to have the ability to visit people in their dreams. Maybe Cas warned Sam off a certain path, and it was Cas who told Sam that Dean was in the cabin, and it was Cas who was outside Sam’s house.[/quote]
          I think the explanation for how they met in the cabin is more mundane. I think Dean called him on one of his remaining phones. Neither were particularly surprised to see the other. I assumed they had arranged to meet.

          Agree though that there must be more going on. I wondered about Cas working with Sam from Purgatory, and it could well have been Cas watching Sam leave the house.

          Reply

          1. [quote][quote]Agree though that there must be more going on. I wondered about Cas working with Sam from Purgatory, and it could well have been Cas watching Sam leave the house.[/quote]

             –Very good question! I have a question in return. WHY did Sam leave his sleeping girlfriend and go to the cabin?
             Did they show something that I missed?

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             1. [quote] I have a question in return. WHY did Sam leave his sleeping girlfriend and go to the cabin?
                Did they show something that I missed?[/quote]

                I thought that was strange as well, esp. since I was under the impression that they were already separated when the show starts.

                I wonder how much Sam cares about her given he left in the middle of the night w/o a word and never called her to say where he was. That was strange!

             2. Unless of course Amelia knows exactly what is going on… mwahaaaa

             3. [quote]I wonder how much Sam cares about her given he left in the middle of the night w/o a word and never called her to say where he was. That was strange![/quote]

                This! Then, I am not the only one who think it. As I mentioned under Saumya’s comment. Sam said goodbye to the dog and not to her. And then she wakes up silently watching as if she knew and she intentionally wait for him to leave. Is it to meet the person outside her house? Does she have secret under the secret?

                Leaving in the middle of the night is not the sign of an honest relationship based on mutual trust, right? At least Dean and Lisa said their goodbyes in the open and not in the middle of the night. Just the way they choose how to play Sam’s goodbye is suspicious.

             4. I didn’t think that Sam was sneaking out in the middle of the night. My impression was that Sam had already told her he was leaving, they had already had that fight and Amelia had turned her back and was ignoring Sam by pretending to sleep.

                Sam wasn’t really making much effort to be stealthy: he was (noisily)zipping his bag up right next to Amelia and nothing about his body language really suggested to me that he was trying to be sneaky.

                I could be wrong but that was just the impression that I got from this scene.

             5. [quote]I didn’t think that Sam was sneaking out in the middle of the night. My impression was that Sam had already told her he was leaving, they had already had that fight and Amelia had turned her back and was ignoring Sam by pretending to sleep.

                Sam wasn’t really making much effort to be stealthy: he was (noisily)zipping his bag up right next to Amelia and nothing about his body language really suggested to me that he was trying to be sneaky.

                I could be wrong but that was just the impression that I got from this scene.[/quote]

                Yeah, it could be that too. But their goodbye still seemed cold. While Dean-Lisa goodbye was plain and out in the open and in a day. I think Supernatural always plays with symbols. There’s something to it. At this time we can only speculate and since we don’t get to see Amelia-Sam fight, it’s still under speculation.

                I just can’t help to notice the two different side of the coin.

                Amelia-Sam : at night, perhaps in anger, Sam’s sad and troubled face.

                Lisa-Dean : day time, understanding/encouraging in Lisa’s part, smiles and kisses from both.

                The one that is the same is the figure outside the house.

                There got to be something out of this. It looks too shady and it’s just in one episode.

             6. [quote]I think Supernatural always plays with symbols. There’s something to it. At this time we can only speculate and since we don’t get to see Amelia-Sam fight, it’s still under speculation. [/quote]
                I definitely agree. I hope we get to see this explored in later episodes.

          2. [quote]Agree though that there must be more going on. I wondered about Cas working with Sam from Purgatory, and it could well have been Cas watching Sam leave the house.[/quote]

             Or it could be Crowleys lackey. Mark S did say that Crowley is what happen when you don’t pay attention. Crowley steers the plot bus this season. Should we assume that all of this are Crowley’s machinations? JC seems to get back to the formula of the season 1-3. Smart demons, spies everywhere, loved one possessed, girlfriend dies.
             As I feel he is rewriting season 4 this time.

             Reply

       2. [quote]I completely hated the characterization of Sam in this episode and agree with some other comments that if this is what we’re left with, then Sam is being rewritten again completely out of character.

          But I do agree with you that there’s probably more going on here. I wonder if Sam made some kind of deal with Crowley, about something bigger than the fate of Dean and Kevin, and Sam’s part of the deal was that he abondon his search for Dean and Kevin?
          [/quote]

          I also hated how Sam was written in this episode. So much so that I almost switched off after the scenes where he admitted that he didn’t search for Dean or try to find Kevin. I really really hope that there’s a twist ahead regarding Sam. I do, kind of, have the feeling that there is something more to Sam’s story (although that could just be desperate wishful thinking on my part). I do wonder who was standing outside Amelia’s house when Sam left.

          For the rest, I enjoyed it. I like this Dean very much indeed. It’s so good to see the back of apathetic depressed Dean. Benny seems interesting. I didn’t like Amelia at all. But the dog is cute.

          I loved Kevin and I loved Crowley, it’s good to see them back.

          Oh…and I loved Sam’s hair.

          Reply

          1. Hi Gwen, go back and watch the scene where Sam and Dean meet up again (if you haven’t already LOL). Sam doesn’t admit to anything at all. Dean interprets Sam’s silence as an admission of guilt, but the reality is, is that Sam admitted no such thing. He also never admitted to not trying to help Kevin, just to not answering his calls. From Kevin and Dean’s perspective that means the same thing at the moment, but it’s not necessarily true. And with Sam being so evasive, I’ll bet there is more to his past year than just him dropping everything. If that was the case, then why is the trunk of the Impala so tidy with all the weapons cleaned, organized and ready to go? Why is the cabin stocked, organized and protected with demon and angel symbols all fresh and prominent? Sam is in Texas, it’s not like he’ll be making frequent trips up to Montana. All of this readiness hardly seems necessary to a man living the sweet life with his girl and his dog.

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    3. Bamboo24, agree with everything you just said. Everyone is acting enigmatically. I feel there are many more layers to this “onion”. I am intrigued and want to find out more. Yeah, Sam does not feel right to me. He didn’t act very surprised, to see that Dean was alive. I hope they have some explanations for his behavior then and for the past year. I don’t begrudge him for getting out if he was completely burnt out and hopeless. Well, one episode does not a season make. I am eager for more and hope they do better than S7 in unfolding and explaining things!!!!

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16. This was a really great opener to the season. Very strong visually on many fronts. I liked the combinations of colors and contrasts for the various scenes. I love, love, love feral Dean; man he’s smokin’ hot and scary as hell. Purgatory seems to have damaged and rejuvenated him all at once. Dean has always been a man of action, so to see him stop wallowing in depression that goes nowhere and get back to his bad ass self is a relief. Benny is a very intriguing character, I like him and am curious to see how he affects things between the brothers.

    Now as to Sam; I was as concerned as the next person about the spoilers regarding Sam’s storyline. It just seemed wildly out of character for him to not even look for Dean or Kevin, regardless of his PTSD. After the opener, I am somewhat reassured, but I am not exactly sure why. I guess because it seems to me that Sam is hiding things as much as Dean is, because he still seems so out of sorts and off kilter. My hope is as the story unfolds we will discover more to Sam’s motivations for the start of this season that will make his choices seem more justified than they do now. Dean’s story has been the open and obvious one, I think that the surprises may come in what is going on with Sam.

    I suppose that toward the end of the season I will be eating my words, and lord knows this show has had trouble following through in the past, but for now, I have hope that there is something much more complex going on with Sam than “Sorry, Dean, I just didn’t’ look cause I didn’t feel like it.” I am thinking some kind of deal with Crowley or the Alpha or someone…
    And for what it’s worth, I kind of liked Amelia the Vet. Yeah, she was kind of a bitch in the twenty second blurb that we saw her in, but considering she’s supposed to be the “love interest” I find it refreshing that she isn’t some sweet, fuzzy, warm girlfriend type who’s all “poor baby” over Sam. He seemed rather put off by her, which makes how they ended up together more interesting to me.

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17. Overall, I really enjoyed the episode. It opens up so many possibilities for the next 21. I happen to enjoy flashbacks, so I’m looking forward to finding out how the year passed for both Sam & Dean. And I agree with you Bamboo24, we’ve only just scratched the surface. Sam came off as evasive to me, so there might be a little more than meets the eye, I have confidence in the path that Jeremy Carver is leading us down.

    I love this Dean, feral and very, very HOT! Definitely PTSD, but different than the one he carries from Hell. Man, he went to all three places, Heaven, Hell & Purgatory. That’ll surely change a person. I understand his anger at Sam, more so for Kevin than for him, I think. These guys need to open up to each other this season, let’s hope they do.

    I have a question. How did Sam know to go to the cabin? Did I miss something, did he get some kind of message?

    Last note. I love that Sam ordered Dean a hamburger & fries. Dean’s face just lit up when he saw it was for him. Ahh, reunited with his baby & his favourite fast food.

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    1. They never really said how Sam got to the cabin, but he said he turned off half his phones, so maybe Dean finally hit one that was turned on? It was very unclear.

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       1. Maybe it will be explained later. There was that shady figure outside of Sam’s house, maybe whoever that was got him the message. Then again, it might become one of those loose threads that never get picked up. Or chock it up to things that make you go MMMMM.

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          1. I don’t think Carver leaves loose threads laying around like the previous two showrunners. I’m looking at this as another mystery that will be revealed a few episodes down the line.

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       2. DELETED

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    2. Sylvie, I wondered about how Sam knew to go to the cabin myself. About the hamburger, it made my mind go to the bad place of: just what in the hell they were eating there?? Fruits and veggies? I doubt it.

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       1. Ha! When Sam first asked Dean if he wanted food and Dean said no, I immediately thought that Dean was on a diet of monster meat. Eww! I was glad for him to dive into that hamburger.

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          1. Maybe meat is all that appeals to him. Monster or otherwise. It was good to see him dive in but he looked a bit too eager 🙂

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18. I haven’t read the posts yet, so I’m just going to give my take on the episode.

    I thought it was great, but I don’t know anything more than I did from the spoilers. I don’t know if Carver is changing to a more serialized format, as opposed to the mini-movie I’m used to, or if the second episode will be something like a 2-parter.

    The episode intrigued me…especially about Benny and what is going on between him and Dean. Did Dean just use Ely’s bones and this isn’t Ely/Benny, but a whole new character with a previously used actor? Where did that southern accent come from? (Me likey.) How was Dean able to perform a resurrection? Is Cas inside Dean? How is VampBenny able to stand out in bright sunlight?

    JA’s performance was brilliant. Love the PTSD. Love feral Dean. Love bloody Dean. Love Dean not letting Sam off the hook. More femur bone handle axe use, please.

    Okay, so Sam dumped Kevin, an innocent, didn’t look for Dean, showed more concern for a stray dog than Dean, acts like Dean’s disappearance was a gift to him and Dean’s return an imposition, and gained a bitchy girlfriend in return for that. Classey. But, you know what? None of that bothers me. I think Sam’s story will play out over the season, and I think this reaction is Sam’s own version of PTSD, and thank the stars he isn’t slurping demon blood. I also thought all action and forward momentum in the episode stalled dead in it’s tracks when shifting to Sam’s love story, and I think that will be the case throughout the season. It’s boring. It doesn’t fit into SPN. The actress and/or character for/or Amelia doesn’t sell it as someone who Sam would be attracted to.

    Love Crowley. Love Crowley in a goat field. And has that guy developed more powerful powers? Do increased powers comes with the job description, King of Hell?

    I am indifferent to Kevin Tran. He could go away, and I wouldn’t miss him any more than I do Garth. The actor does a good job, and the way JC explained how he gained his hunting skills in such a short time worked for me. I cringe at the thought of Kevin in the backseat of the Impala all season, though, and I certainly [i]will not[/i] like it when his mama joins him there.

    I’m sorry, Sam, but your girlfriend is a bitch. I don’t like this character, and I didn’t think the actress even sold that she was playing the role of a vet. Not impressed with her at all, and I wish she would go away sooner rather than later…but she won’t. There was no warmth in the delivery of the character at all. So, Liane, if you want to learn how to be a badass and lovable, thus making the character likeable, I suggest you watch S1 and S2 episodes of JA playing Dean.

    Didn’t like or recognize the music. Thank God the Impala is back.

    Overall assessment: Any episode that has Dean saying “Son of a bitch,” is a winner, and there was much more to this episode than that. Definitely set up the 3-year plot, but I think there will be even more to it than we saw last night.

    Welcome aboard, Jeremy.

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    1. Yes, thank you, I knew I recognized Benny from somewhere! Eli, from way back in season 2. 9:00 is past my bedtime, I don’t pay attention as much as I should. 🙂

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    2. Loved your comment! Totally agree about Sam’s girlfriend. I’m not one to jump on the female characters. I’ve enjoyed most of them, but this one didn’t do a thing for me. She wasn’t appealing on any level to me. Maybe she’ll grow on me. I wouldn’t have bought her as potential girlfriend material, if the spoilers and show hadn’t said she was. I’ll give her a chance though. She didn’t come across as badass as much as irritable. Ellen, to me, was badass and likable.

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19. I feel better reading everyone else’s comments. I thought Jensen and the portrayal of purgatory was fabulous,but I too was really concerned about all the things related to Sam that have already been noted so well. I was disappointed in Sam and Dean’s “hug”. It seemed oddly lacking in sincere emotion from both brothers (e.g. Dean’s “Let’s do this!” Really? Very edgy. And Sam makes a joke at the moment of reunion with the brother he thought he’d never see again?). Sam just seemed so detached throughout the episode. I couldn’t understand his lack of empathy when Dean played all of Kevin’s messages. I was waiting for guilt, surprise, defensive justification…[i]something [/i] that would be so characteristic of Sam. I actually started to worry about Jared’s acting! My disappointment with Season 7 was that it never quite got the emotional moments right. It always seemed to shy away from exactly what [i]should [/i] have been said, or didn’t delve deeply enough into the implications of the brothers’ actions. Let’s face it – the raw honesty of the emotions is one of the strengths of the show. I hated thinking that we were already on that same path for season 8.
    Then I looked at the episode, and Sam, from a different perspective. I am very intrigued by the speculation that Sam made some kind of deal that he is hiding. That would make his reactions selfless, not selfish. He is taking heat from Dean rather than divulging what really happened. I think that theory has real merit. It would make the acting and the writing brilliant, which is far more consistent with Jared and Jeremy’s talent.
    I have another theory as well. What if his relationship with Amelia isn’t over because they broke up – it is over because Amelia [i]died[/i]. Sam’s reactions then are of someone that lived the last year doing something truly important – helping someone deal with their own mortality. He felt he couldn’t help anyone else (Dean, Kevin, or the long list of family and friends that died because of hunting), but he could help the one person right in front of him that needed him. After all, few people know more about loss and dying than Sam! His comments to Kevin in the church about having seen a way forward and “things get better” seemed wise (“more mature” according to Jeremy). That kind of insight, or emotional growth, comes from going through deeply personal loss. He has grieved, and isn’t ready to share that long story yet with anyone. THAT makes so many things make sense:
    – We all know that Amelia is reeling from a “devastating tragedy” when they meet (according to Jeremy’s comments). Finding out she is going to die?
    Sam’s keen interest in Cass’ whereabouts.
    – Sam’s sadness remembering when he and Amelia first met.
    – Sam’s lack of emotional engagement with Dean, or Kevin. People that recently grieved are psychologically numb. THAT is how Sam looked.
    – It would also explain Amelia’s sharpness to Sam when they first meet. Telling someone to stand up and deal with a darn dog seems small compared to her issues.
    – In interviews, Jared has said that you can tell deeper stories in flashback than you necessarily can in real time. What a powerful story they could unfold to justify Sam’s year and his reactions to Dean!
    Enough speculation….you get the idea. But this made me [i]excited [/i] to see how this unfolds, and totally in awe of Jared’s portrayal of Sam, and Jeremy’s vision for the season. Let’s watch what happens…

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    1. It was real time, I thought, when Sam left Amelia in the bed to go meet Dean. So she’s not dead. Yet.

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    2. Laurie, I really like your take. It would make alot of sense. It would explain Sam’s flat emotional reactions to things .I just hope they are not going down some road where there is something WRONG with Sam again. Enough of having to fix Sam. For myself and all the disappointed” Sam fans” I sincerely hope there is an explanation that puts Sam in a sympathetic light.

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    3. Hi, Laurie

       I am sorry but from what I gather from the interview and spoilers said that Amelia will return in real time. So, she’s definitely not dead. I don’t remember who said it (perhaps Singer) but they said that the romance will also happen in real time, not only in flash back.

       So, we will see Amelia in live perhaps the middle season.
       Thus, your theory about Sam is grieving her is probably not true.

       One that confuses me is Sam left Amelia sleeping. Then he went to the cabin. How much time did it take from the bed scene to the cabin scene.
       Sam seems does not care much of her. I mean I get it Sam always do the running thing in his live. It’s like it’s written in his DNA. Got problem, Run.
       But leaving a girl that supposed to be his love interest and seeing this is Sam he always cares about any person he found himself interested to, but leaving her in the middle of the night without saying Goodbye was cruel.

       He said Goodbye to the dog but seems not that care of her. Amelia also seems to anticipate it. She waited him leave pretend to sleep. What kind of relationship these two had? Very shady.

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    4. I REALLY AGREE WITH YOU
       & I ENJOYED OF YOUR COMMENT

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20. This is what I get from this premier of season 8.

    I think this is more like Season 4 ala Jeremy Carver.

    Benny reminds me of Alistair. Bitchy Amelia reminds me of Ruby. The secrecy, the shady deal and the rift between the brothers. The taste and the tone.
    Makes me think that Jeremy Carver has wiped off Gamble’s seasons and makes his very own version of Season 4.

    PS: For the record, I am very not enjoying the acting of the actress who played Amelia. I don’t know much about acting but I learn from watching Jensen and Jared’s acting. She’s not that good. Her acting seems forced and rigid and uncomfortable to look at.
    Is it intentional or the casting department were having trouble. Okay, she has big eyes, dark hair, very much Gen but are those the only requirement in casting Amelia?

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21. I HAVE A QUESTION:
    WHY SAM LEAVE AMELIA & WHO WAS IN DARK? BENNY?
    IT`S VERY BIG Q FOR ME.

    —-
    BESIDE CHARACTERS I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT DIRECTION OF THIS EP:
    I DO NOT KNOW WHY WE HAD ALL THOSE EXTREME CLOSEUP, WE DID NOT SEE SAM`S HEAD OR IN CAMERA TURN S/T SPECIALLY JARED WAS OUT OF FRAME
    SPECIALLY WITH THE HEIGHT DIFFRENCE OF J2.
    I DO NOT LIKE DIRECTION OF THIS EP IN SOME TIMES.

    THEN AGAIN I HAVE TO ADMIT I HATE/DON’T LIKE [u]SAM`S MAKEUP [/u]SPECIALLY B/C MOST OF US WATCH SPN FROM COMPUTERS WE SEE SHOW, CLOSE TO SCREEN & I DON’T KNOW WHY THEY PUT LOTS OF DARK MAKEUP ON HIS FACE WHICH IS S/T MAKE HIS FACE FAKE OR STUPID & HIS HAIR, WHY YOU HAVE TO PUT LOTS OF GEL TO HIS HAIR , JARED NATURAL HAIR IS SO GOOD & NO NEED TO MAKE HIS FACE STUPID SPECIALLY WHEN THEY WERE IN GAS STATION IN IMPALA WITH KEVIN I THINK HE LOOKS LIKE WEARING WIG OR IN UNIVERSITY WHEN THEY WERE WALKING…

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22. [quote] I thought huge Sam shouting at the tiny nurse was out of character – thought he’d be more “please help me, look what I did” about it. It didn’t feel right the way they did it.
    They do seem to have some trouble hiring love interest-actresses. This one doesn’t seem to have much charisma (and her makeup was odd, or is that just me?), but at least she told Sam off for being all angry and then dumping the dog in their laps. I think they’re aiming for Lisa-esque. I liked Lisa, but it took me a while.[/quote]
    completely agree with that acting & line & makeup specially after dog surgery!!!

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23. Okay, can I just say that I was SOOOOO nervous about this one? I was literally biting my nails by the time the music (the frigging music!) started on the Road So Far thingy. (Can I just talk about the music? I hope there’s LOADS more of it this season)

    And it’s almost surprising to me how much I liked this episode. I was sure going into it with a lot of negative emotions, but Sam didn’t come off as a jerk to me at all. In fact, I agree he’s hiding something. However trivial they are, or huge, there IS something. Mysterious guy outside the house for one, and it’s so ooc of Sam to not look for Kevin that it’s surely not neglect or doucheness but something…else. Because that’s what the writing felt like when Dean was playing those phone messages to Sam, as if they were purposely setting up Sam as someone who didn’t care enough to even look for Kevin.
    It can’t simply be the writers looking at him all wrong. It’s too contrived for that. And I have no doubt that Jeremy Carver gets Sam, so unless he’s been replaced with a robot, there has to be more to this.

    Plus, the episode didn’t lag. I loved seeing the demon-phone again. I loved Dean’s “Cliff Notes? I was in Purgatory. Sam hit a dog.”

    Osric Chau was pretty awesome in this episode, and that Benny guy has sure got me intrigued. There has to be some serious story for Dean to be hugging a vampire.

    Sam was definitely showing some PTSD with the dog, right? He was totally freaking out when he brought it in.

    I liked Amelia. She was kind of a bitch to him, yes, but all relationships don’t start off all starlit and dewy-eyed, hmm? Let’s save the hate for her until we’ve seen more of her, please? And if something is really wrong with her, she’s liable for some PTSD yelling-at-strangers too.

    And I thought the technical quality was brilliant too. What was that in the beginning with the graveside ritual? It looked WAAAY cool with the close up on the skull.

    Loved the title card- reminds me a little of s2.

    Can I also say that I watched the episode a second time (since I’m from India I had to download the thing) just for Sam’s hair? Like Alice said, it’s ….nuts! And I love it!

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    1. I agree with you on all you have said. Sam’s reaction to everything was so ‘knowing’ sort of ‘yeah this looks really bad I can see how you would look at it that way’ and I firmly believe there’s a ‘but…’

       Well, I kind-of believe it.

       Well, I really WANT to believe it.

       I am going to enjoy everything else and just wait it out 😀

       And whether I like what they do with Sam in the end or not Jared and Jensen and everyone else were wonderful! It was the most edge-of-my-seat, nail-chewing TV viewing I have done in years!

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       1. [quote]I agree with you on all you have said. Sam’s reaction to everything was so ‘knowing’ sort of ‘yeah this looks really bad I can see how you would look at it that way’ and I firmly believe there’s a ‘but…’

          [/quote]

          …And may I add SAD! I got a sense of extreme sadness in everything about Sam in this episode.

          Maybe I’m hallucinating, but I really believe there’s more to it. The Sam I believe in is not selfish. If he really has not searched for Dean, ignored Kevin, and just watched the world go by in the newspaper, then there’s a bigger explanation to it than we’ve seen yet.

          My guess, and it’s only a guess based on wishful thinking, Crowley’s involved somehow.

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    2. You’re right about Amilia. Let’s wait and find out a bit more about her before the hate-fest. I don’t think we saw her long enough to form an opinion about who she even is.

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       1. I’ll agree with that. They didn’t introduce her in a way that endeared her to me, but maybe we will see more facets as the show goes on.

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24. [quote]
    I thought huge Sam shouting at the tiny nurse was out of character – thought he’d be more “please help me, look what I did” about it. It didn’t feel right the way they did it.

    [/quote]
    Exactly! Not normal behaviour at all, and I’m sticking to chanting “something is wrong with him” He wasn’t even really yelling when Bobby was dying- Dean was doing all that.

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25. HOME RUN!! I have not been this excited about a season start since Season 5! THANK YOU JEREMY CARVER for bringing our show back (too much after just one episode?!?!)

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26. Earlier in the summer myself and some others were kicking around the idea of feral Dean. I’m sorry I don’t remember who you all were or who first brought up the idea but we kinda called it, huh. I like to think they read the comments and liked the idea. I know it didn’t happen that way of course, still fun to think it did!!

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27. One more thing! Anyone of you guys see how awesome the way Dean throw that Demon over his shoulder?

    OMG!! That’s Judo guys!!! Awesome. If I am not mistaken it’s called IPPON SEIONAGE. (One armed-over the shoulder- throw) I know it’s not Jensen who did that but It’s definitely Dean! Oh, Dean.

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28. I was hoping for some sort of mental breakdown to explain Sam’s behavior and I still think that has to be part of it with he reaction to the dog.

    But reading through the comments and rewatching the episode, I like the idea Sam is hiding something more than his mental state.

    I had thought about the possibility of him hiding the fact that he gotten Dean out of purgatory. But when it seemed like Dean had worked his own way out, I discounted it. But the suggestion that perhaps Sam was more involved than he let on and is hiding it because it is something shady-I love. His questioning of Dean on Cas did seem more pointed than I would have expected. And there was someone standing outside the house when he left Amelia.

    Sam feeling ashamed because he did something that he assumed that Dean would not approve of, seems very in character. Especially after S4, he would be reluctant to admit he had gone down a darker path again, even if no demon blood was involved. And it would be kind of ironic since this Dean seems like a ends justify the means kind of guy.

    It does feel like there’s evidence of this. Sam didn’t seem that surprised to find Dean alive. He left Amelia without saying anything. Something was up with that dog scene. The only time he got defensive really, was in relation to Kevin. Dean interrupted or just made assumptions, when he asked Sam about looking for him. Sam never answer. Or was evasive. He said it wasn’t about the girl and dropped what it was about when Dean asked about her. Lots of little things. Lots of little things.

    It would actually fill several more of my wishes for S8 if this was the case. Especially the one about Sam helping to get Dean out and Dean fighting for his own survival to get out. He just didn’t have that much will to survive in S7, so if both could be true-I would be in heaven. I don’t want to get my hopes up though, because it might just be closer to what it appears in Ep 1.

    I did find Amelia a little bitchy, but Sam was wigging out when he first got there. But she seem to blame him for accidentally hitting the dog. Uh Accident. But she was only really in the show for all of 2 minutes, so I will hold my opinion of her. Since I think she was trying to guilt him into taking the dog. And the thought of the dog in Baby makes me smile.

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    1. [quote]His questioning of Dean on Cas did seem more pointed than I would have expected. And there was someone standing outside the house when he left Amelia. [/quote]

       Now that you mention it, I re-watched the episode again and yes, I think it was as if Sam just knew that if Dean got out then Cas should too. He kept asking if Dean see Cas dead. Was is somehow Cas was able to send some mental messages to Sam but it only worked one way?

       Cas could be projecting to Sam in very short messages like a kind of angel SOS signals. Repeated several times but because of the difficult transmission, can only send few words and not clear?

       [quote]Especially the one about Sam helping to get Dean out and Dean fighting for his own survival to get out. He just didn’t have that much will to survive in S7, so if both could be true-I would be in heaven. [/quote]

       You and me both. 🙂

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29. I think I’m like most people. I sort of liked the episode except for anything for Sam. It’s strange how unsympathetic Sam is, yet, how harsh everyone is treating him. I think that was the most painful thing about the episode. I don’t know, but you think through all the crap Sam is getting there would be some sympathy for him, but most people who had a problem with it are either chopping it up to Sam being the selfish unheroic jerk who could never compare to Dean or Sam was written grossly OCC. I’m leaning more towards Sam being written out of character, because I haven’t seen too many people outside of Sam haters call Sam selfish in this episode.

    I think it was a terrible way to kick off Sam’s story. Bitchy girlfriend and being written as uncaring distance isn’t the way to get people to embrace a love interest or a controversial story. Honestly, right now, I feel like this episode in terms of Sam was nothing more than to give his haters a way to tear him down more. People get to bring up Sam killing demons for demon blood (despite the fact that Sam was only using Ruby’s blood and that was a major problem Dean pointed out that she would get him high and then disappear for weeks, and Sam only killed one host to get demon), Sam didn’t take control over Lucifer soon enough, he choke Dean, he was soulless and everything else under the sun. They decided Sam isn’t a hero but a narcissus. I

    honestly feel like Jeremy Carver just listened to anyone who hated Sam and decided hey, I’ll throw Sam under the bus, make them hate him more, and then have everyone use him as a punching bag but since Sam has been written so horrible no one will care! Carver has picked his side of the fandom he wants to listen to and it doesn’t include anyone who likes Sam. Even if he does manage to try to fix it, it’s too late. He can’t fix the comments. He can’t fix the people who are just dismissing it as Sam being Sam. More importantly, if he tries to make so Sam isn’t Sam or Sam did something, he’ll make it worse. People will say it’s letting Sam off the hook instead of having Sam deal. I’ve already seen people over at IMDB blame Sam for Kevin’s girlfriend’s death. I really need to stop going to that place. But I guess I’m just trying to figure out who the show is going to be cater to now. Because you can’t have this many people saying Sam is out of character and Sam is unsympathetic and think that there is some thought to how Sam is shown in the writers room.

    Personally, I’m preparing for nothing but Amelia to be going on with. I think the shadowy figure is going to turn out to be Bobby or Castiel telling Sam something Dean did in Purgatory. But since it’s clear that Dean is the only hero of the story, Sam is going to get the blame for it. Sam didn’t save or look for Dean, so anything Dean did in Purgatory is on Sam and was just a mere act of survival. I know that I’m sick and on way too much medication to be looking at this logically and ration it out, but I still feel like I’ve been given the middle finger and told this is jerk I love. And it hurts. I don’t understand. I just want to know why. I don’t see how they can twist this into the story without making it illogical for Sam do something or look like they are backtracking to fix this mistake. And I’m so sick of everyone saying it’s about perception. I get it. Sam did something bad, but Dean will do something bad and then the dog will do something bad and it will all cancel out. Only it doesn’t cancel out. They can’t change how it makes the audience look at Sam now. No one is going to backtrack on what they said about Sam. It isn’t going to change how bad I feel now or my crying. I really think they did this only to please certain fans and to make Dean’s horrors seem less terrible and can be blamed on Sam.

    And if the rest of the season plays out this obviously, I don’t think there is any way back from this. The episode followed the spoilers to the T. So, I’m not hopeful for the rest of the season. I’m going to watch until midseason, but I don’t know I think the rest of season will depend on how good Arrow is. I can’t even focus on the good or what I liked about the episode, because of how horrible they are making Sam. It’s just another Sam letting Dean get bit and the claws are sharpened for Sam’s judgment day. And Dean is going to be proven right once again. That might be the biggest plot twist of the season: Dean is wrong. But we all know that isn’t going to happen, because it’s Dean and Benny will probably be the nicest monster you ever met and sacrifices himself to send all the demons back to Hell. Okay, I think my meds are kicking in and I need to stop writing. I’m sorry if I upset anyone with my negativity.

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    1. Katie, I recognise a lot of what you are saying, and you will see from my other comments that I feel very strongly that Sam has been written totally ooc in this ep. It makes me sad to think of the ammunition it gives to the Sam haters, and its depressing to think how hard it is going to be to defend him. Because other than arguing its out of character his actions are indefensible.

       I don’t agree that the show is trying to ruin Sam so Dean can look better, or that JC has ‘picked a side’ against Sam. I do think the decision is hugely misguided. I hope they don’t end up regretting it. JC wrote some great Sam eps eg MS and PONR. I have to believe he has a plan.

       (Btw I go to imdb (although not so much lately). It is very Dean centric, so it does make depressing reading at the moment. What is your name over there?)

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       1. I want to believe there is a reason behind Sam acting this way. But after seeing how closely this episode followed the spoilers, I can’t help but think of the last interview I saw with Robert Singer and Jeremy Carver. They said that the tables will be turned on Dean because Sam is very open about the year he took off and Dean isn’t open about Purgatory. That gives me the impression of they didn’t really plan for Sam’s storyline to get this much of a bad reaction, because it was only suppose to counteract Dean’s bad behavior. That’s why I’m inclined to think that Jeremy Carver picked a side. It’s just too misguided for it to be a mistake and it seems like they are laying on the blame really thick for Sam at the moment.

          I was surprised by how much Sam was included in the season premiere, but he really didn’t do much other than try to explain himself. I could be really off base, because I feel so crummy. But I don’t understand why they would write Sam is much out of character, say that Sam is being honest with Dean, and then pull a plot twist. So, far everything is happening exactly like they said it would. Maybe there is a plan, but I think it’s the same one as sixth season. One of the brothers needed to be out of the way, so they gave him a love interest and the other brother has something really cool.

          It’s just too out of character and calculated for it to be something as simple as most fans see Sam as a jerk therefore we’re going to make him such an unsympathetic jerk that anything Dean does will look like he is a saint. But I don’t think the show would ever do anything as radical as having Dean as the bad brother who is wrong and Sam as the good brother trying to help his brother. So, I’m leaning towards Sam has to be the screw up. I truly do think by setting this story this way, Jeremy Carver has picked a side. You cannot really recover a character from this radical of change and still have the character be the character. It won’t help if Sam was locked in a mental ward. Fans are still going to throw him under the bus for not helping Dean and Kevin. They have already set the story up as Dean and Kevin were fighting for their lives and Sam didn’t care and was off with a girl. Sympathy for Dean and Kevin and hot coals for Sam. And I’m suppose to believe that it’s going to balance out so Sam is vindicated?

          I really think Jeremy Carver was sick of what Sera Gamble did to the show, so he focused all his time and energy on forming Dean’s plot and the restructuring the mythology that he forgot to give Sam something. So, he rushed into creating something for Sam, but because he had already planned everything else out, Sam’s stuff had to be unrelated and have Sam off in a different place. I’m not sure he deliberately did this, but I think in a lot of ways, he just saw the Dean side and neglected the Sam. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be debating if Sam is being thrown under the bus or not. Sera Gamble didn’t plan much for Dean, but she never threw Dean to the wolves as much as she did Sam. Nor did she ever have an episode where it was painfully clear that the only problem most people had with the episode was one main character.

          Of course, I’m judging Carver much harsher because first of all, he making a lot of the same mistakes he is trying to run from and second, he said that “no one is a bigger fan of Dean and Castiel than me.” Neither one is fair, but after this episode, he certainly has the fandom against Sam or at least not happy with him. It might make it easier to put Sam in the background if everyone has issues with him and allow Purgatory, Dean, Benny. and Castiel to take the main focus. I’m just not sure Jeremy Carver has any interest in taking time to think about Sam and how it looks.

          I don’t post on IMDB. I never have. I don’t really like posting on anything other than comment sections. I like reading the message boards, but I’ve had to give up so many because of how nasty they are getting especially towards Sam. Personally, I miss reading the old CW Lounge, because as crazy as it was, I felt like you could find both Sam and Dean fans there. And it didn’t matter who you liked better. There are moments when I’m reading online and it almost becomes a witch-hunt to figure out who is the ESG or EDG.

          I wish I know of some more Sam centric boards that were as active as IMDB. The only reason why I put up with the website is it gets information quickly. But I really need to stop reading certain threads, because I hate it when poster assume that the entire fans think this character is the most popular or this character is seen like a jerk. It’s statistically impossible to figure what everyone in the fandom thinks, let alone present one website as how the who fandom feels. Outside of IMDB, I think fandom balances out a lot more and a lot of fans on tumblr would rather have a leviathan over for dinner than chose between Sam and Dean.

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          1. I’ve said this, like, so many times. The quote “no one is a bigger fan of Dean and Castiel than me” came out of Carver’s mouth as a response to a specific question asking about Dean and Castiel’s relationship. He wasn’t asked to pick a favorite, he was asked if Dean and Castiel’s story would get fleshed out in S8, and so, to give assurance, he said “no one is a bigger fan of Dean and Castiel than me”. To say that he was somehow picking that relationship over the main brother’s relationship is taking the quote out of context and severely misusing it. The is and will always be primarily about Sam and Dean. Carver knows this. He’s written some of the best “brothers” episodes in the series’ history – and btw – a lot of those were Sam-heavy episodes. Carver knows what he’s doing. The fact that the first episode was in line with all spoilers tells us nothing other than that they have a plan and are following it – I’m expecting plot twists down the road – Carver has said many times that he is playing with expectations and perception in the first half of this season. So writing Sam out of character was done for a reason, and not a malicious one as so many would like to claim. Let the story play out.

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             1. I understand why Carver said and I did acknowledge that my judging him harsher wasn’t fair. But I think he did go overboard in trying to reassure that Cas has a place in the show with the statement. I wish he would have started Sam and Dean’s relationship off in a better place, but I’m not convinced that he is interested in doing right by Sam and Dean relationship. Partly, because of how he is starting and partly, because of this statement. Again, I understand that isn’t fair to him, but I can’t help but feel like he picked a side in showing Dean and Kevin’s stories to be filled with trouble and fighting for their lives and Sam crying over a dog. I just don’t see how you can twist that around logically. Maybe in a couple of episodes I’ll feel different. Maybe once I get out of the house and quit over thinking this episode, I’ll quit judging Jeremy Carver so harshly. But right now, he has made it incredibly difficult to see that he sees Sam as a good guy and good brother. He can say that he is playing with perception all he wants, but he’s really just implying that there is another side to the story. However, is this story really going to justify Sam leaving Dean in Purgatory and abandoning Kevin? They scolded Sam a lot in this episode for his choices, so maybe Sam will be vindicated. But I’m not expecting that.

          2. Actually, Katie, though of course it’s speculative, I think Carver had a very deliberate direction in mind in what he’s doing with Sam. I’m still very unsure whether his writing choice is one I’ll be able to follow, and I’m inclined to agree with you that interviews indicate that there won’t be a transformative plot twist, but I don’t think his Sam decisions are careless or malicious. Think about it; he’s following for Dean a storyline that splices very easily with the finale; his choices there don’t seem like a radical departure from what was set up by Carver’s predecessors. For Sam, on the other hand, he chose a very different direction from what Gamble seemed to have planned. I think that change of direction is responsible for some of the awkwardness in Sam’s story, and that’s unfortunate, but I certainly don’t think it suggests that Sam’s arc was any kind of afterthought for Carver. It may turn out to be an arc that I find very offputting, but it certainly seems to be one that comes out of a story Carver wants very much to tell, and sees as sympathetic.

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          3. addendum to my other post

             Though I do very much sympathize with how distressing it is to see so much Sam-bashing in so many fandom spaces, and to feel that this storyline leaves Sam open to it! I just came across a couple of comments from people who want Dean to beat Sam up, and, yeah, it makes me feel awful. But I don’t think Sam came across as callous onscreen, and Carver has urged everyone not to rush to judgment and promised that evaluations will shift down the line.

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             1. Etheldred, one of my main problems with writing Sam like this is it doesn’t flow from last season. Dean’s story does. It makes sense and it looks like it was planned. However, Sam’s story looks like thrown together. Now, this is just based off the first episode, but I’m not entirely convicted that it’s going to change. Jared did mention that Sam is going to have to answer to Dean and Castiel, so I’m expecting another round of crappy selfish Sam didn’t save Cas who saved him from Hell before anything new happens on the Sam front. But as Sam’s story stands now, it throws out seven years of character development. And it completely dismisses Sam’s Hell and years after John’s death. The story doesn’t flow. Jeremy Carver is doing something with Dean that is different from Dean’s depression, but he isn’t letting anything about Sam from the sixth and seventh flow into the show. I understand that is extremely difficult to do because of how badly butchered and botched Sam’s story was in seventh season. But you can’t just radically change a character and then say well, it’s a perception thing. I feel like he is doing this deliberately, but I think it’s going to end up being neglect, misguided, and probably, eventually, regretted. Right now, it’s the weakest point of the season. I’m not saying he couldn’t turn into the strongest aspects of the season, but for now, he’s has got what he laid out. He has fandom extremely upset over Sam either in characteristic, selfishness, or having to defend Sam over and over. He had to know this was going to happen. He had to understand that Sam was going to be thrown under the bus. Maybe he’ll face the music and deal with it. But giving me lines about being patient or telling me not to judge isn’t reassuring that the bus isn’t going to do serious damage. I went into this season with very little confidence in the show or Carver and he hasn’t given me anything to hold on.

                I don’t disagree that Carver has a plan. I think it’s clear there is a direction this season. But I don’t think the story is going to be organic or flow. There is already too much going on with forced drama/conflict. I don’t get the sense that Sam’s story is going to be outside of Amelia who is already showing signs of being another godawful unrealistic bitchy female. But I could be wrong. It’s too early to tell. But I do think how he is setting up the story is very telling; however, what it truly means is still a mystery.

             2. I actually agree that (pending further revelations) Sam’s story doesn’t flow, and I have my fears that it will turn out to be a disaster. The part of your post I was disputing was the idea that Carver was devoting all his energy to Dean and threw something together for Sam at the last minute. It seems to me more like he had a very strong idea of what he wanted to do with Sam when he came in, so strong that I fear it has distorted a lot of prior canon around it. In other words, I think Dean’s story flows and looks like it was planned partly because it was less Carver’s own personal idea, and therefore is continuous with earlier writing of Dean, whereas Sam’s doesn’t because Carver has taken a very individual direction with it. As things stand, I think this is a huge and possibly fatal flaw in Carver’s writing, I just don’t think it arises from carelessness or negligence of Sam’s part in the story.

             3. Etheldred, I share your fears that this story will turn out to be a disaster. It already is in someways, because there will be fans would will never forgive Sam for not looking for Dean no matter what the reason. I can see where you would have the fear that Jeremy Carver has a sort of tunnel-vision when it comes to Sam and is distorting prior canon to do it. But to me, that is being careless. He’s letting his own cannon and wishes to cloud his better judgment. I think by plowing straight ahead without any regards for the past two seasons is extremely negligent. He might not be neglecting Sam as in forgetting Sam is there, but he is not looking at how Sam looks or where Sam was left off. I think he has this question he wants to explore, but he didn’t stop and ask is this the right thing for the character, does this add to the character, and is this in line for where the character is now? He jumped in without choosing to be considerate and respectful of how he presents his character. Some people would praise him for and others cry foul. I’m crying foul, because I do feel like he did this on purpose to a certain extent. I’m not the right person to ask, because I do judge him harshly and I do feel like he is playing to one side of the fandom to allow for Dean to be excused on any actions done in Purgatory.

                However, personal feelings aside I think it’s the job of a good writer to create flow in writing. Even if you are taking over the story from someone else, you still need to respect what they did and build what you off of it. Otherwise, your story will end up being like one of those camp fire games where each person adds a sentence to the story It ends up being really random and no one has a clue as to what is going on. It’s really difficult to buy what a story is trying to tell when you aren’t even sure if the writer respects what happened before.

             4. I agree with you there. I still think it’s too early to judge the storyline, but I understand having deep apprehensions about it. I think Carver deserves a bit of slack on continuity just because, for whatever reason, he didn’t have the opportunity Gamble did to work out his ideas for the future with the retiring showrunner and collaborate on the transition. But ultimately I think that you are right; taking over a show in progress brings with it particular responsibilities, and sometimes a writer or even a showrunner has to modify a personal preoccupation or vision in order to harmonize with the overall series. Just because I think the problem arises out of interest rather than disinterest in a vision of Sam’s character doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s a problem.

                Again, I still think it’s too early to judge. It is already explicit that there is mystery in the background of Sam’s story (the shadowy figure watching, at minimum), and I think it is only fair to Carver to see how the backstory fills in before passing what would be a very harsh judgment. But I will say that IF the discontinuity really is as deep as there being no explanation of Sam’s actions beyond “no leads, moved on,” THEN, at that point, I would judge Carver not only for an error in writing but for a culpable disrespect for the work of his predecessors. I absolutely think that he has an ethical obligation to treat the canon he inherits as a binding constraint on wherever he decides to go from there.

       2. Here’s my thing – with all due respect, why does anybody care about some trolls on some other site who like to bash one character over another? Why get all bent out of shape over that? Why even waste breath and energy on people like that? I only participate in sites like this one, that are primarily positive and bi-bro. All that infighting of Sam-girls vs. Dean-girls and “Sam-haters” vs. “Dean-haters” – in my view, those people aren’t even fans. A house divided cannot stand, as they say. Besides, as the actors have said many times, (and I’m sure you’d agree) they realized early on that if one of them does well, both of them win. Their unity is a HUGE part of what makes the show successful, and we as a fandom should be unified in our support and devotion. This doesn’t mean that we can’t raise concerns and dissatisfactions, as you have done (and I respect that) – but why even bother with these other people who only generate nonsense and division? Because you see, what is happening here is people are unintentionally taking the concerns over what other people think on these other sites, and bringing that anxiety here. So those “Sam-haters” or “Dean-haters” are indirectly spreading that venom to good sites like this. Let the haters hate, I say. They’re always gonna be like that. Our show has survived 7+ seasons despite them. And with our support it will survive another 3. So – I think focusing less on what ammunition some storyline might give “Samhater123” on another site would be very freeing, healthy, and beneficial.

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          1. I so agree with this comment Bamboo24. The people who hate the individual characters Sam, Dean, Cas, Bobby, whomever, are dug in and will not change their views so why worry about them so much. No matter what happens on the show this season, they will still be on sites spewing their poison. They get a kick out of conflict. They intentionally bait people to get their reactions. This site raises legitimate questions and concerns and things are usually discussed in a respectful way. This is why I rarely visit other sites. And kudos to Alice & Co. for maintaining this atmosphere.

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          2. I totally agree! I do think the writers picked a dangerous route with this mixture of plot-lines but it could be the best thing for the show. It looks to me like they really do have a strong idea where they are going with the season.

             Jared and Jensen have a connection with their characters and they wouldn’t be agreeing to more seasons if they didn’t think that the characters were going to be treated properly – particularly Jared who is in danger of getting typecast if all the hair commentary is anything to go by.

             This next bit sounds slightly cynical but I don’t mean it that way. Looking at the show as a show and not as a story, the CW has moved it to midweek. They want and need for it to increase audience share. So they are hoping for new viewers. Best way to do that is have a very small number of characters and a pretty straightforward initial storyline with kick-ass fighting. Then when people get hooked they will want to know why someone would end up in Purgatory and know that if they tune in next week they can find out how he got out, because they know he did. They don’t even need to be told yet that there are 7 other seasons they need to know about. It’s brilliant really.

             If that is part of their reasoning then they would need to lighten up on the Sam guilt-trip because it might turn new viewers off before they give the show a chance.

             But it would mean that the long term viewers have to wait a bit for everyone to catch up.

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    2. Katie, I hope you feel better soon! I enjoyed your post and agree with many parts of it.

       Since you like Sam, I would suggest that you STOP frequenting IMDb. That place turned into a Dean Haven a few years back. Most of the posters there hate Sam; those who liked Sam seem to have left. I used to post there pretty regularly, and found it to be pretty balanced. I don’t know what happened, but suddenly the hate for Sam was strong. It got so bad that I was soured on the board. I haven’t been there in years. Stick to this forum or Supernatural.tv.

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       1. Thanks, Lala2. I hope I’m over this soon too. I can’t figure out if I’m just really upset about being sick that’s what is causing me to react the way I am. Or if it’s just how I felt about the spoilers playing out and that’s more of the problem. Yeah, I don’t understand how come the hate for Sam got so strong there either. I think the site has always leaned more towards Dean, but now, it is pretty much you have to love Dean or you will get chase away. I used to go to Supernatural.tv, but I found some of the posters pretty nasty too. I don’t know how it’s been lately. I assume the Dean boards are still really nasty about Sam. But I don’t know. It’s been a while since I have been there.

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          1. Yes, Katie, the Dean boards are still ridiculously nasty toward Sam. To be honest with you, on Supernatural.tv, I mostly frequented the Sam boards or the episode discussion threads. The CW boards were pretty balanced. I discovered them in S6 and left SN.tv to post on those boards. But then, they were shut down.

             I think the Sam spoilers are particularly upsetting because of the way past stories for Sam have played out. If you’re like me, you have little faith in the writers and just worry that a good story won’t be told for Sam .

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             1. [quote]Yes, Katie, the Dean boards are still ridiculously nasty toward Sam. To be honest with you, on Supernatural.tv, I mostly frequented the Sam boards or the episode discussion threads. The boards were pretty balanced. I discovered them in S6 and left SN.tv to post on those boards. But then, they were shut down.

                I think the Sam spoilers are particularly upsetting because of the way past stories for Sam have played out. If you’re like me, you have little faith in the writers and just worry that a good story won’t be told for Sam .[/quote]

                This is where I am at this point. I’ve lost all faith in the writers and now the showrunner. I’d like to believe that there is a real story for Sam but at this point, I think Amelia is it. I hate how OOC Sam was in this episode. I blame the writers and JC.

             2. Gosh! I hope that you guys are planning to give the new show runner more than just ONE episode before writing off the entire series and Sam’s character as forever ruined. It’s not fair to lay the blame for past mistakes at JC’s feet. He deserves at least a few more episodes to lay the groundwork for what he has in mind before we tar and feather him! We don’t have enough information after only one episode to KNOW that Sam is acting out of character or has no motivation for making the choices that he is making. I have commented extensively on other threads that I think that Sam has a complex back story that will be revealed as the season progresses. Only then, once this takes shape and plays out can we asses weather or not Sam’s story has worked or not worked, if he was written well or if his character was destroyed. Past mistakes are NOT an indicator of early failure in this case, because there’s a new sheriff in town.

             3. I think worried that the writers won’t tell a good story for Sam is understatement for me. I don’t trust the writers like I used to. Maybe it’s because I have discovered the internet and now know what you see isn’t something you just have to learn to live with, but you can complain about shows. I’ve gone over to the dark side of that, but I’m very worried based on past stories.

30. Okay, 1. Sam and Dean used to sacrifice each other and whatever e,se and you know what came of that? The apocalypse. It’s best not to look for the other brother, it’s best for basically the whole world. And Sam’s story line only bothers me in 1 way, he got rid of his phone and thus didn’t receive the calls from Kevin. His intentions for abandoning his phone were not to neglect Kevin, he probably didn’t even think about that. And I don’t think people commenting on Sam “not caring” and whatever is fair. Imagine that everyone you love, you know, everyone suddenly disappeared to who-knows-where? You are left COMPETELY alone. What else is there to do other than get in the car and drive? How is Sam giving up the life any different than when Dean gave up the life? Except that Sam actually kept his promise and DIDN’T look for Dean. I’m completely sympathetic to Sam’s choice, I would have done the same thing. Also, how was Sam’s talk with Kevin and the way he wanted him to be ale to live his life without being torn to shreds unsympathetic. I honestly think people are seeing what they want to see, and they want to see that Sam’s was a jerk. And seriously, why is it they’re job to save everybody? Sam was right, people do die every day and that’s the way life is. And we all know that there is no way his story line is that simple? Is there even such a thing as simplicity in Supernatural?

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    1. [quote]I’m completely sympathetic to Sam’s choice, I would have done the same thing. Also, how was Sam’s talk with Kevin and the way he wanted him to be ale to live his life without being torn to shreds unsympathetic. I honestly think people are seeing what they want to see, and they want to see that Sam’s was a jerk. And seriously, why is it they’re job to save everybody? Sam was right, people do die every day and that’s the way life is. And we all know that there is no way his story line is that simple? Is there even such a thing as simplicity in Supernatural?[/quote]

       I agree with your POV here, but I think the fundamental difference is whether you view Sam and Dean primarily as “heroes” or primarily as “humans.” If it’s the former, it makes sense for some to be offended if one brother or the other does something un-heroic. But I think the narrative that more closely resembles the ‘message’ of the show is that Sam and Dean are “humans” flawed in different ways, and trying to survive impossible and incredible situations. They didn’t ask for the life thrust upon them as children, and Sam has always chafed at it more than Dean. I don’t think this makes him unsympathetic either. In fact, I think his view, as you described, may be the healthiest.

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31. I think what the show had in the early seasons (especially 1 to 3) that it lacks now, was an element of mystery that made you want to keep watching to find out more. And it had this way of feeding you one little tidbit at a time – one little piece of the puzzle that clicked into place. You had to keep watching to see if the boys would ever find their dad; you had to keep watching because you wanted to find out more about the yellow-eyed demon.

    I still love the show and continue to watch, but somehow it just doesn’t have the same appeal that it did in the early seasons/story lines.

    On an aside, I think there was an agreement between the two of them at the end of Season 5 NOT to look. Sam made Dean promise that if Sam threw himself in the pit, then Dean shouldn’t look for him.

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    1. [quote]I think there was an agreement between the two of them at the end of Season 5 NOT to look. [/quote]

       Yes, good point!

       [b]Sam: “You have to promise not to try and bring me back.”[/b]

       That was because once the Cage was closed it was too dangerous to poke at. And Dean, though he “looked” for ways to do it, wasn’t going to try something that wasn’t full-proof. The situation with Dean and Purgatory – even IF Sam had known Dean was there – is quite comparable. He couldn’t go poking that door (if the door was even find-able), risking letting more horrible creatures free after their experience with the Leviathans.

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       1. [quote][quote]I think there was an agreement between the two of them at the end of Season 5 NOT to look. [/quote]

          Yes, good point!

          [b]Sam: “You have to promise not to try and bring me back.”[/b]

          That was because once the Cage was closed it was too dangerous to poke at. And Dean, though he “looked” for ways to do it, wasn’t going to try something that wasn’t full-proof. The situation with Dean and Purgatory – even IF Sam had known Dean was there – is quite comparable. He couldn’t go poking that door (if the door was even find-able), risking letting more horrible creatures free after their experience with the Leviathans.[/quote]

          I’ve seen this argument in various places, but it doesn’t stand up. What DEAN promised SAM (note – not vice versa) in SS was very explicit. It was not to try to OPEN LUCIFERS CAGE to rescue Sam – thereby risking letting him out again. Sam was saying ‘don’t risk everything we’ve fought for. You have to just accept I’m gone’. Dean knew where Sam was. There was no mystery. So he just had to decide whether to stick to his promise. And guess what? He didn’t. He kept looking for Sam and eventually rescued his soul.

          If there was a more general agreement between them it went something like ‘don’t do a deal, or sell your soul, or risk the lives of others, or kill yourself to get me back.’ It NEVER meant ‘if I disappear dont even bother trying to find what happened to me. Just breathe a sigh of relief, get in the car and go buy a dog’. And as recently as TaT Sam immediately dedicated himself to getting Dean back from the past.

          So sorry this just does not stand up to any scrutiny.

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          1. [quote]I’ve seen this argument in various places, but it doesn’t stand up. What DEAN promised SAM (note – not vice versa) in SS was very explicit. It was not to try to OPEN LUCIFERS CAGE to rescue Sam – thereby risking letting him out again. Sam was saying ‘don’t risk everything we’ve fought for. You have to just accept I’m gone’. Dean knew where Sam was. There was no mystery. So he just had to decide whether to stick to his promise. And guess what? He didn’t. He kept looking for Sam and eventually rescued his soul.[/quote]

             Yes, I’m aware that it was Dean who promised Sam and that the promise was regarding not opening Lucifer’s Cage to rescue Sam. I also agree that Sam was making Dean promise for the reasons you gave – however, I was suggesting that the reasons Sam might have not looked for Dean in this situation (given he did not, in fact, look) were [i]comparable[/i]to the S5 situation. I didn’t say they were the same. And yes, Dean looked for Sam anyway – [i]because Dean knew where Sam was.[/i]

             I don’t see how the ‘don’t risk everything we’ve fought for. You have to just accept I’m gone’ doesn’t apply to Sam in this instance, especially considering that he a) lost everyone he ever loved due to hunting, b) the last time Purgatory was opened the Leviathans got free, c) Sam apparently didn’t know where Dean was, and d) he accepted that Dean was gone and moved on with his life. The only difference, as you stated, was that Dean knew where Sam was from the start and kept looking for a way to free him. If Sam truly didn’t know where Dean was, as it’s been suggested, how can we fault him for not looking? To do so is, IMO, fail to acknowledge the journey his character has been on the past few seasons. Granted, we don’t know for sure yet if it is, in fact, true that Sam didn’t look for Dean. We don’t know for sure yet what his reasons were behind his decisions. We don’t even know really what his year topside consisted of beyond vague and questionable details given in just one episode. So, in light of all that, I think yes, it is a reasonable argument (though it’s more a speculation or inference) to be made.

             [quote]If there was a more general agreement between them it went something like ‘don’t do a deal, or sell your soul, or risk the lives of others, or kill yourself to get me back.’ It NEVER meant ‘if I disappear dont even bother trying to find what happened to me. Just breathe a sigh of relief, get in the car and go buy a dog’. And as recently as TaT Sam immediately dedicated himself to getting Dean back from the past. [/quote]

             How you describe Sam’s situation – ‘if I disappear dont even bother trying to find what happened to me. Just breathe a sigh of relief, get in the car and go buy a dog’ – is not even an accurate characterization of what happened, much less a fair interpretation of the comparison I was making. Sam may not have shown much emotion in this episode, but he certainly showed enough to let us know that he wasn’t some happy-go-lucky guy after Dean’s disappearance. I also firmly believe that the emotions he DID show regarding the dog were a implicit transferance of his grief over Dean, as I mentioned elsewhere. In any case, we will surely get more answers as the season progresses.

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             1. [quote]
                Yes, I’m aware that it was Dean who promised Sam and that the promise was regarding not opening Lucifer’s Cage to rescue Sam. I also agree that Sam was making Dean promise for the reasons you gave – however, I was suggesting that the reasons Sam might have not looked for Dean in this situation (given he did not, in fact, look) were [i]comparable[/i]to the S5 situation. I didn’t say they were the same. And yes, Dean looked for Sam anyway – [i]because Dean knew where Sam was.[/i]

                I don’t see how the ‘don’t risk everything we’ve fought for. You have to just accept I’m gone’ doesn’t apply to Sam in this instance, especially considering that he a) lost everyone he ever loved due to hunting, b) the last time Purgatory was opened the Leviathans got free, c) Sam apparently didn’t know where Dean was, and d) he accepted that Dean was gone and moved on with his life. The only difference, as you stated, was that Dean knew where Sam was from the start and kept looking for a way to free him. If Sam truly didn’t know where Dean was, as it’s been suggested, how can we fault him for not looking? To do so is, IMO, fail to acknowledge the journey his character has been on the past few seasons. Granted, we don’t know for sure yet if it is, in fact, true that Sam didn’t look for Dean. We don’t know for sure yet what his reasons were behind his decisions. We don’t even know really what his year topside consisted of beyond vague and questionable details given in just one episode. So, in light of all that, I think yes, it is a reasonable argument (though it’s more a speculation or inference) to be made.

                [quote]If there was a more general agreement between them it went something like ‘don’t do a deal, or sell your soul, or risk the lives of others, or kill yourself to get me back.’ It NEVER meant ‘if I disappear dont even bother trying to find what happened to me. Just breathe a sigh of relief, get in the car and go buy a dog’. And as recently as TaT Sam immediately dedicated himself to getting Dean back from the past. [/quote]

                How you describe Sam’s situation – ‘if I disappear dont even bother trying to find what happened to me. Just breathe a sigh of relief, get in the car and go buy a dog’ – is not even an accurate characterization of what happened, much less a fair interpretation of the comparison I was making. Sam may not have shown much emotion in this episode, but he certainly showed enough to let us know that he wasn’t some happy-go-lucky guy after Dean’s disappearance. I also firmly believe that the emotions he DID show regarding the dog were a implicit transferance of his grief over Dean, as I mentioned elsewhere. In any case, we will surely get more answers as the season progresses.[/quote]

                I’m sorry but I fundamentally disagree. The situation in SS and when Dean went to Purgatory are very different. The promise Sam forced Dean to make was very specific. It was not not try to open Lucifers cage. My summary of this as ‘don’t risk everything we’ve fought for. You have to just accept I’m gone’ was for that VERY SPECIFIC situation. Now if Sam had known Dean was in Purgatory and made a mature, informed decision that to try to get him out would risk opening the world to Levis again I could accept that. That is not what happened. What happened was that Sam didn’t bother to find out where Dean had gone. It is no good saying he assumed he was dead. When has an assumption – in the absence of a body – been acceptable in this show. Even when they had burned Bobby’s body he was still around. So even if Sam thought Dean was dead (which was a leap from what happened) he should have tried to find out if he was in heaven, hell or had stayed as a ghost like Bobby.

                My description ‘if I disappear dont even bother trying to find what happened to me. Just breathe a sigh of relief, get in the car and go buy a dog’ wasn’t meant – as you imply – as a description of what Sam actually did. It was a sarcastic description of the promise people seem to be saying Dean and Sam made to each other. I am in no way implying that Sam wasn’t upset by losing Dean. I agree that the dog clearly represented something there. But I can’t reconcile that with a Sam that didn’t try to find out what happened to his brother, or at the very least to check out where he had ended up.

                I am very concerned about this turn of events because the showrunners don’t appear to understand the canon in their own show. They are claiming Dean and Sam made a general promise they never made, and what they did promise each other was much more specific than ‘just don’t look for me’. The fact that they don’t appear to understand that is worrying. And when you combine that with the apparent utter failure to understand the character of one of your leads, you have to worry even more.

                Yes I am still hoping there is more to it. But the interviews with Jared, JC and BS are very strongly stating that it is what we see, and that they think that is perfectly in character, within canon, and justified. The ‘things aren’t what they seem’ appears to be about Dean and what he had to do to get out of Purg, with a side of more explanation for Sam’s actions.

                Sadly for me there is no possible explanation they could give that would make me accept that Sam wouldn’t have looked for Dean. I could accept that he might have looked and decided it was too risky to try to rescue Dean. I can accept that he would look and fail to find any leads. But I cannot accept that he wouldn’t look. So unless he really did look and Jared, BS and JC are the best liars ever, then I am not optimistic.

             2. It’s perfectly fine that you disagree. I do see where you’re coming from regarding the promise, though I think our interpretations of some things are different, if only in shades. I still assert that it’s too early in the game to be saying what Sam did or didn’t do, or thought or didn’t think, as if it is fact. I was not claiming that Sam’s actions [i]are[/i] explained by the scenario I described – rather that they COULD be. I was just as curious about the alleged promise discussed in the episode as you – and when I saw the poster above reminding us of the promise in S5, I thought – hey, maybe that’s what they’re getting at! And who knows? Again, I think it’s way too early to tell. Remember in the beginning of S6, where everyone knew something was off with Sam, but didn’t know what? That was deliberate mischaracterization for a reason – it wasn’t that the writers didn’t know Sam’s character or wanted to bash him. Regardless of whether you liked S6 or not (I really don’t want to get into that) – I think the same is happening here. It’s not so much ‘what’s wrong with Sam’, IMO, as ‘what happened to Sam to bring him to this point’. And it’s an emotional arc as opposed to a myth-driven one. But I understand some of your concerns.

             3. The thing is, it’s not really “what happened to Sam to bring him to this point” because the radical weird thing happens right after 7.23. If Sam didn’t look for Dean at all (and that has been outright stated in interviews in very unambiguous terms, and with Singer and Carver making it a part of the story they want to tell in ways that make it very, very unlikely that it’s some form of season 6 foilering), then Sam is a different person literally within hours of when we last saw him in 7.23, not at the end of the intervening year.

                And I’m seeing some contradiction in the defenses of the alleged promise as grounds for Sam’s decision, in that “Sam didn’t know where Dean was” and “the last time purgatory was opened, Leviathans got free” are mutually exclusive explanations. If Sam didn’t know where Dean was, he had no way of knowing whether the place where Dean was was one that couldn’t be accessed without unacceptable risk. He might have been as safely retrievable as he was in Time After Time. And Sam knowing Dean was in purgatory and choosing not to risk getting him out is an irrelevant scenario, since, barring a wide range of people outside as well as inside the show flat out lying to us, that simply isn’t what happened. Sam didn’t know. He didn’t try to find out.

                I don’t think we are stuck with “Sam is ruined forever” yet, though I do think we may be eventually, but the possible alternatives have been narrowed down a lot. I think the likeliest direction they could go that would still work is portraying Sam as having a complete breakdown in the wake of Dean’s disappearance, and the vet scene gives me hope for that. The only other alternative I can see is them giving Sam some reason, without his having to actively investigate to find it, for going from “Where’s Dean?” in 7.23 to plausibly assuming that Dean is dead.

                But, honestly, people making mistakes about their own canon, especially when they are influenced by wanting to go in a direction and remembering things in a way colored by that direction, isn’t that implausible. It happens all the time. Anyone who’s written something lengthy and complicated, been away from it for a while, and enters a situation where they have to talk about it or work with it again has probably had the experience of finding out that they are vague on or radically misremember their own work. And Carver is dealing with something much more complicated, a huge tract of material for which he was only directly the author of a tiny percentage. I don’t think the argument “the writers know this and know the characters and they would never mess this up” is necessarily a solid a priori truth.

             4. I agree with every word of your post ethelred. The personality transplant that happened to Sam happened within moments of Dick’s destruction in 7.23. Now unless he had a Buffy s5-style catatonic shutdown I’m not seeing any justification for that.

                I agree with Bardivoce that it looks like Sam’s is going to be the emotional arc and Dean’s the mytharc this year. But that makes it worse. Only a mytharc explanation will be good enough to satisfy me I’m afraid. Emotional arcs only work if they are based on consistent well written characters. We are starting from the wrong position if that is where they are going.

             5. [quote]The thing is, it’s not really “what happened to Sam to bring him to this point” because the radical weird thing happens right after 7.23. If Sam didn’t look for Dean at all (and that has been outright stated in interviews in very unambiguous terms, and with Singer and Carver making it a part of the story they want to tell in ways that make it very, very unlikely that it’s some form of season 6 foilering), then Sam is a different person literally within hours of when we last saw him in 7.23, not at the end of the intervening year.[/quote]

                See, we’re totally viewing it differently. I look at the entirety of the journey Sam has been on and ask myself, “could this reaction from him make sense in light of all that’s happened?” My answer in this case would be yes. I think it’s plausible. I don’t think there was a massive character change – like a switch flicked – after the finale. We will have to agree to disagree on that. I also don’t put as much stock into the spoilers – because they are full of incomplete, vaguely worded statements. They’re helpful to get the big picture, but TPTB are not going to tell us everything, because that would give it away! Who knows what they have up their sleeves? So I’m not calling foul until I’m sure that it’s foul.

                [quote]And I’m seeing some contradiction in the defenses of the alleged promise as grounds for Sam’s decision, in that “Sam didn’t know where Dean was” and “the last time purgatory was opened, Leviathans got free” are mutually exclusive explanations.[/quote]

                I think I wrote before that I wasn’t necessarily using the discussion of the alleged promise as an argument for what Sam definitely did – rather, I thought it was a reasonable inference/speculation. In short – I wasn’t being overly literal. 🙂 You’re right that they are mutually exclusive and contradicting explanations – but they are each respectively possible.

                I think a major difference between us is that you talk about the first episode as if it definitely showed/told us what Sam did or did not do or know. But I think evidence and the history of SPN both support the assumption that we do not have the full story, that what we see at first (ESPECIALLY in the first episode!) is not always what is reality. We don’t have all the facts – and I don’t think we can claim what was said in the first episode as fact yet – especially because everything was off. I DO believe that Sam has decided he doesn’t want to hunt. I don’t have an issue with that. I DO believe that he would be heavily influenced by the fact that every one he ever loved had been killed by the Job. I think we can take those as true. But regarding whether he actually didn’t look for Dean (he didn’t answer that question) or what he knew/didn’t know or did/didn’t do – that is still up in the air, IMO. The spoilers do support speculations, as Carver stated many times that they’re playing with expectations this year and dealing a lot with perception. I think that we perceive as being Sam’s actions/reasons now is likely not to be what Sam’s actions/reasons actually were. Same goes for Dean. It’ll be an ongoing mystery to find out what happened to both brothers during their times apart.

                So…all that to say that I think there is more to the story – so that opens the door for many potential scenarios and speculations as to what Sam did and his motivations for it. If you believe otherwise, we will simply have to agree to disagree, because I will not be swayed in my conviction of this. 🙂

                [quote]But, honestly, people making mistakes about their own canon, especially when they are influenced by wanting to go in a direction and remembering things in a way colored by that direction, isn’t that implausible. It happens all the time. Anyone who’s written something lengthy and complicated, been away from it for a while, and enters a situation where they have to talk about it or work with it again has probably had the experience of finding out that they are vague on or radically misremember their own work. And Carver is dealing with something much more complicated, a huge tract of material for which he was only directly the author of a tiny percentage. I don’t think the argument “the writers know this and know the characters and they would never mess this up” is necessarily a solid a priori truth.
                [/quote]

                That’s entirely fair. I mean – they made mistakes before with the handprint disappearing from Dean’s shoulder in S7 (though it could be easily explained). Two things, however: First, I don’t think it is fair to the professionals in charge of writing the scripts of Supernatural to jump on the “they’re getting it all wrong!” bus after the premiere episode. Not that the writers ALWAYS get it right (again, there’s the overly-literalness) but they DO know the characters, and they ARE professionals. Besides, there is a difference between screwing up canon and screwing up character. I think the latter is less likely with Carver writing the script, based on his earlier work with the show – that’s just my opinion. Second, I was partly responding to those who seem to believe that the writers hate or are bored with or don’t care about Sam’s character – that is a pet peeve of mine. I don’t think it’s right; to me it is slanderous and absurd. (Not that you ever wrote such – I can’t remember).

             6. Great post, Geordiegirl! I especially agree with this:

                [quote][The situation in SS and when Dean went to Purgatory are very different. The promise Sam forced Dean to make was very specific. It was not not try to open Lucifers cage. My summary of this as ‘don’t risk everything we’ve fought for. You have to just accept I’m gone’ was for that VERY SPECIFIC situation. Now if Sam had known Dean was in Purgatory and made a mature, informed decision that to try to get him out would risk opening the world to Levis again I could accept that. That is not what happened. What happened was that Sam didn’t bother to find out where Dean had gone. It is no good saying he assumed he was dead. When has an assumption – in the absence of a body – been acceptable in this show. Even when they had burned Bobby’s body he was still around. So even if Sam thought Dean was dead (which was a leap from what happened) he should have tried to find out if he was in heaven, hell or had stayed as a ghost like Bobby.[/quote]

                I posted something similar below. The promise in SS was specific and w/r/t the Cage. I maintain that not only have the brothers NEVER made a promise to not look for each other if one mysteriously disappeared, but it would be an illogical promise to make given the lives they lead.

                Dean: “Sam, you go talk to the professor, and I’ll go talk to the boyfriend. We’ll meet back at the motel in an hour.”
                Sam: “Okay.”
                [i]At the motel five hours later . . . .[/i]
                Dean: “Man, it’s been five hours., I wonder where Sam could be. He’s not answering his cell, and no one’s see him. Oh well . . . I guess he’s gone. I’d look for him but we made that promise not to so . . .”

                Okay . . . I’m being sarcastic, but that’s what the “promise not to look for each other” means to me. How would that work? Why would they make such a silly promise to each other? That’s why it makes no sense. There was NO such promise between the brothers.

                I also agree that if Sam knew Dean was in Purgatory and didn’t want to risk opening the doors, then his actions would make more sense but from what we’ve seen (and I’m not going to assume there’s more to the story), Sam was clueless as to what happened to Dean. He had no clue and didn’t bother to investigate the situation. That is what most of us find OOC. There really is no explanation I can buy that would justify Sam not even starting an investigation into his brother’s disappearance.

                [quote]I am very concerned about this turn of events because the showrunners don’t appear to understand the canon in their own show. They are claiming Dean and Sam made a general promise they never made, and what they did promise each other was much more specific than ‘just don’t look for me’. The fact that they don’t appear to understand that is worrying. And when you combine that with the apparent utter failure to understand the character of one of your leads, you have to worry even more. . . .

                Sadly for me there is no possible explanation they could give that would make me accept that Sam wouldn’t have looked for Dean. I could accept that he might have looked and decided it was too risky to try to rescue Dean. I can accept that he would look and fail to find any leads. But I cannot accept that he wouldn’t look. So unless he really did look and Jared, BS and JC are the best liars ever, then I am not optimistic.[/quote]

                I couldn’t agree more w/you! It also concerns me that JC believes Sam would not look for Dean. I’m not sure why Sam couldn’t look for Dean and quit hunting or hook up w/Amelia. His looking doesn’t preclude him from doing the other things.

                This is a troubling road they’ve taken Sam, IMO, and the first episode – at least IMO – did not hint at there being more to the story.

          2. Yes, I agree with this. I think the conflation of specific promises not to retrieve from the dead through potentially disastrous means with a general promise not to investigate a disappearance doesn’t hold water, and the emphasis Carver and Singer have put on this in interviews is probably the thing that most undermines my hopes for Sam’s storyline. I get where Carver and Singer are going with this, and it seems to be about Sam following through on moving on and leaving hunting behind, but they are propping the much more radical and difficult to justify decision for Sam not to search for Dean at all on it as well, and that doesn’t work.

             Reply

    2. But there is a difference in searching for someone who mysteriously disappears and disturbing the natural order to rescue your sibling from a different realm. If Dean said he was going to get something from the car but never returned, would it make sense for Sam to not search for him?

       What you’re saying would have played out better if Sam said he knew Dean was in Purgatory and didn’t want to risk the world by bringing him back. Sam seemed to have no clue what happened to Dean. He could have been tossed a few states away. The least Sam could do is investigate. I’m not saying he had to bust open the doors to Purgatory though I would expect him to do just that!

       Reply

       1. lala2,

          I see what you’re saying – and you certainly have a point, though I think it’s too early to definitely say what Sam knew and didn’t know, why he did what he did, and even WHAT he did (because we’re not sure) – all that’s still a mystery waiting to be revealed. However, I was speaking more to the contention people have asserted that Sam and Dean never made promises not to look for each other. There is, in fact, canon to at least indirectly support that assertion, so it’s not as out-of-leftfield as some are portraying it. Beyond that, I was using the example I gave just to show that they’re comparable, not necessarily to theorize about Sam’s actions.

          Reply

          1. Again, not to belabour the point, but the boys have [b]NEVER [/b] agreed to NOT look for each other. Such a promise would not make any sense given the lives they lead.

             In SS, Sam got Dean to promise to not try to rescue him (Sam) from the Cage. That’s all. Never once did the boys ever agree that if one mysteriously disappeared, the other would not look for him. The promise Sam extracted in SS was specific and w/r/t the Cage. Dean knew where Sam would be, and Sam did not want Dean poking at the Cage to get Sam out in case Lucifer was released.

             Honestly, given what they do, it would make no sense for the boys to agree to not look for each other if one disappeared. In my eyes, that is different than agreeing that one brother should not kill himself, damn his soul, associate w/demons, collaborate w/evil, etc. to resurrect the other brother.

             We can agree to disagree b/c I simply can’t agree that the boys ever agreed to not look for the other if one mysteriously disappeared. That honestly makes no sense to me.

             Reply

    3. Hello Celine. That’s an interesting point you bring up. There was a great spinning out of information in the early years of the series that kept you coming back from week to week. So, I am curious.. didn’t you feel that this was the case with the season premier? Because I did. I felt that JC was setting up a series of three complex story lines (maybe soon to be four story lines pending the possible return of Cas in a few weeks) that will be revealed over time in little bits and pieces. I find it interesting that many fans want to return to the format you have described and are now criticizing the premier episode for doing exactly that! Irony.

       Reply

       1. [quote]Hello Celine. That’s an interesting point you bring up. There was a great spinning out of information in the early years of the series that kept you coming back from week to week. So, I am curious.. didn’t you feel that this was the case with the season premier? Because I did. I felt that JC was setting up a series of three complex story lines (maybe soon to be four story lines pending the possible return of Cas in a few weeks) that will be revealed over time in little bits and pieces. I find it interesting that many fans want to return to the format you have described and are now criticizing the premier episode for doing exactly that! Irony.[/quote]
          I can’t speak for Celine obviously, but for me there is a HUGE difference between the pacing and content of the arcs of the best seasons compared to what IMO were the least enjoyable and that is the connection of the arc to Dean&Sam (as opposed to Dean and Sam separately).

          S1 – Dean&Sam look for their dad
          S2 – Dean&Sam fight Sam’s destiny TOGETHER
          S3 – Dean&Sam fight Dean’s deal
          S5 – Dean&Sam fight against their fate as pawns in the Apocalypse
          S6 pt 2 (post) LaV – Dean&Sam fight against Eve, Crowley etc
          In all of these seasons / parts of seasons the arc was connected to the boys as a unit. It affected them both and they were motivated to – as a team – pursue the same goal. Of course they had arguments about how they should go about things. They worked out some issues along the way eg Sam and Dean’s different attitudes to hunting / their Dad (s1). Sam was filled with self doubt and anger in S2. Dean had kept a secret from Sam in s2 but you never got the sense that that secret – either before or after it was revealed – remotely threatened their bond. Same in s3. Dean didn’t want Sam to try to get him out of the deal. Sam refused to give up. There were arguments. Sam went behind Dean’s back. But it was all motivated by love. Sam wanted to save Dean. Dean was afraid Sam would get hurt if he interfered. In s5 both were supporting each other to give each other the strength to say no to Lucifer and Michael. Their destinies were linked. The arc was linked to them, to their family, to the fact that they were brothers. And in the end their bond and the strength they drew from each other meant they prevailed.

          Then we get s4 which had 2 separate stories and the brothers at odds. Sam / Ruby / demon blood and Dean / Cas / hell PTSD. And rarely did they come together. IMO it was an awful season filled with ooc behaviour and artificially induced angst that betrayed much of what we had been told up to then about these characters.

          Then early s6 – soulless Sam, domestic Dean were 2 completely separate story arcs that only met in AiS / LaV when Dean finally brought real Sam back. For the rest of the season they were both concerned about Sam’s wall, trying to fight Eve etc and it was fine – not classic SPN but fine IMO.

          Then s7 was a bit of a hot mess arc-wise. I enjoyed it, but its main weakness was the lack of focus on the brothers bond. Lots of things to worry about – Sam’s hellucinations, Dean’s depression / death wish. But each brother was too preoccupied with their own issues to really focus on helping the other. It was a cold affair.

          Now we have the start of s8 which is setting up 2 separate arcs – one for each brother and explored via flashbacks, without the other brother even being involved at all. Already I have lost interest. I don’t care what Sam did with Amelia. I don’t care what Dean did in Purgatory, or about Benny or Cas. The aspect I care about is the story of Dean&Sam fighting evil as a united front. All I can see ahead is separate stories and characters I’m not interested in, relationships I don’t care about (S/A, D/B, D/C) being given screen time, while the time the brothers are together they are at odds about what went on while they were apart. At the con this weekend Jensen confirmed that by ep8 (which they are filming now) they are still unhappy. Sam is angry about Benny, Dean is angry Sam didn’t look. That is 8 EPISODES into the season. It is sounding more and more like early s6/s4/s7 and less like the seasons of classic SPN that I love.

          So while I am by no means writing it off, I have seen enough to know that I am going to struggle with the show for quite some time. It makes me very sad. I had hoped that the return of JC would be a return to the brotherly bond and the dynamic that drew many of us to the show in the first place. Instead we see yet more brothers at odds (and having to be written ooc to achieve that – just as happened in s4), separate stories, a coldness between them that is hard to take, and a LOOONNNGGG stretch of eps filled with stuff that doesn’t interest me.

          This is a personal take. I don’t expect everyone to agree. But thought I’d share. It is like cheap therapy 😉

          Reply

          1. Hi Geordiegirl1967,

             I think you and I share the same sentiments regarding the seasons. My favorite seasons are still season 1,2 and 3. I have two different opinions about season 4.

             Objectively, I think season 4 is a great season in terms of writing and mytharc. We get answers to many secrets from previous seasons. Like Mary’s deal and her apology in ‘Home’. The writing, the pacing and the acting is superb in that season.

             Subjectively, I HATE IT. I think it’s the worst season because I spent watching it with my heart felt like being crushed.
             Because I always hate it when the brothers are at odds with each other. In season 4 there are no longer Sam and Dean. They both deals with their own problems and do not spend enough time to help each other. It seems there is this wide gaping ravine between them and they cannot/would not/not allowed to find a common/middle ground.

             [quote]Then we get s4 which had 2 separate stories and the brothers at odds. Sam / Ruby / demon blood and Dean / Cas / hell PTSD. And rarely did they come together. IMO it was an awful season filled with ooc behaviour and artificially induced angst that betrayed much of what we had been told up to then about these characters.[/quote]
             Very well said.

             [quote]Then s7 was a bit of a hot mess arc-wise. I enjoyed it, but its main weakness was the lack of focus on the brothers bond. Lots of things to worry about – Sam’s hellucinations, Dean’s depression / death wish. But each brother was too preoccupied with their own issues to really focus on helping the other. It was a cold affair.[/quote]

             I think mainly because the writers focus on the leviathans and not Sam and Dean. The writing is cold, the brotherly bond is gone, except in HCW and MTNB. Season 7 was set up to be a great season with the brothers on the same page and facing the burdens together, helping each other, but instead of hashing that out between them we only see them sitting in the car talking about a case like strangers.

             [quote]I had hoped that the return of JC would be a return to the brotherly bond and the dynamic that drew many of us to the show in the first place. [/quote]

             I already get the feeling that season 8 is JC’s version of season 4. We get a repeat of a chasm between the brothers. A distrust issues, an OOC and full of secret Sam. Yet, instead of Sam who is friends with the bad guys it is Dean this time.

             I am preparing myself for a heartbreaking episode and very sad viewing, in my part. In fact Dean’s dialogue about the their ‘deep abiding love for each other’ has already make me cry, literally.

             Reply

32. Popping in just for a quickie, here.

    I really liked this episode. While Sam’s behavior concerns me, I am absolutely confident that we still have a LOT to learn about what actually happened to him after the moment season 7 ended, and when we learn the whole, we’ll realize that what was going on wasn’t remotely a man being callous, selfish, or shallow. I will wait to see what happens.

    I’ll go into a lot more detail later, when I manage my episode write-up, but here’s one quick piece for thought.

    That figure watching the Texas house as Sam left Amelia and the dog? I’m convinced that was Dean, scouting his brother with all the wary caution of an Army ranger doing recon of a village in enemy territory, trying to figure out whether it is a trap or legit. I don’t believe for a second that he actually smelled the dog in the car (no matter how acute his senses became in Purgatory!) or guessed there was a girl: I’m positive he knew because he was there and saw them, and was probing to find out whether Sam would tell him the truth or not. I think Dean tracked Sam down to Texas, watched him, and followed him when he left. And once Sam crossed the state line into Montana, it would have been obvious that Rufus’s cabin was his destination, so it would have been child’s play for Dean to beat him there and be waiting to ambush him for testing when Sam opened the door.

    And about Sam’s departure from Amelia’s place: the nature of it gave me the sense that this – stealing away in the night – was something he had done multiple times before. The way Amelia woke but remained silent and still, just watching him leave without making any comment or calling him back, made me think this was a pattern to which she’d grown sadly accustomed. Rufus’s cabin being reasonably clean and with a fridge stocked full of beer implied to me that Sam visited there on a regular basis. Sam may have abandoned hunting, but I think he hadn’t abandoned this last place still linked to his family. It felt to me almost like a pilgrimage – like a monthly trip to a grave site to clean the marker and spend a little time in contemplation. I think Dean turning up there alive was a total shock to Sam’s system – and yet, given their weird history, something that seemed simultaneously inevitable after all the previous times death or disappearance had lost their hold on him.

    I loved war vet Dean, jumping out of his skin from the constant overstimulation of his combat reflexes by perfectly ordinary sounds and sights that have been made alien to him after a year in constant combat. I’m intrigued by Benny and want to see how his connection with Dean developed and led to their escape from Purgatory. And I’m dying to learn the fate of Castiel and to see where the whole quest for the Word goes.

    Bring it, season 8!

    Reply

    1. Bardicvoice quote: That figure watching the Texas house as Sam left Amelia and the dog? I’m convinced that was Dean, scouting his brother with all the wary caution of an Army ranger doing recon of a village in enemy territory, trying to figure out whether it is a trap or legit.
       I think Dean tracked Sam down to Texas, watched him, and followed him when he left. And once Sam crossed the state line into Montana, it would have been obvious that Rufus’s cabin was his destination, so it would have been child’s play for Dean to beat him there and be waiting to ambush him for testing when Sam opened the door.

       And about Sam’s departure from Amelia’s place: the nature of it gave me the sense that this – stealing away in the night – was something he had done multiple times before. The way Amelia woke but remained silent and still, just watching him leave without making any comment or calling him back, made me think this was a pattern to which she’d grown sadly accustomed. Rufus’s cabin being reasonably clean and with a fridge stocked full of beer implied to me that Sam visited there on a regular basis. Sam may have abandoned hunting, but I think he hadn’t abandoned this last place still linked to his family. It felt to me almost like a pilgrimage – like a monthly trip to a grave site to clean the marker and spend a little time in contemplation. I think Dean turning up there alive was a total shock to Sam’s system – and yet, given their weird history, something that seemed simultaneously inevitable after all the previous times death or disappearance had lost their hold on him.

       I loved war vet Dean, jumping out of his skin from the constant overstimulation of his combat reflexes by perfectly ordinary sounds and sights that have been made alien to him after a year in constant combat. “[quote]

       I think your suspicions sound totally plausible and I am intrigued by the possibilities. There is definitely more to Sam than meets the eye right now. Some of his questions hinted to me there is much more to tell. e.g. Are you sure Cas is dead? Where is the tablet? His over the top reaction when he hit the dog.

       Hope I can make it until next Wed.

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       1. Actually, this would be a nice mirror to Sam watching Dean outside Lisa’s house at the end of season 5 and sounds like something JC might think to do.

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    2. I really like your thoughts on the night escape. I think there’s every reason to believe you’re on to something there. That’s a very viable reason for Amelia to not have reacted to his leaving.
       And Dean watching sounds like something this Dean would do, too.
       Interesting!

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    3. I’ll be interested to read your full take on the episode, Bardicvoice.
       Regarding these quick notes – I’ll be very disappointed if that shadowy figure was Dean. I hope it is something else – anything else that either helps to somehow make sense of Sam’s actions, or somehow includes Sam in the overall story – even if its demons watching to see if he contacts Kevin.

       I got the impression that Dean had been at the cabin while trying to locate Sam and that Dean brought the beer with him to the cabin. He seemed almost like a host offering it to Sam.

       Gosh, I can smell it when our dog has been in my car — no need for Purgatory heightened senses!

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33. oops, obviously did something wrong since the quote isn’t showing up right. Still learning this stuff.

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34. Didn’t Dean give up hunting too when he thought Sam was in the cage? He went to live with Ben and Lisa. Stop hating on Sam til you know the whole story.

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    1. [quote]Didn’t Dean give up hunting too when he thought Sam was in the cage? He went to live with Ben and Lisa. Stop hating on Sam til you know the whole story.[/quote]
       No he didn’t. He tried the normal life with Lisa because Sam made him promise, but he kept trying to find/save Sam.

       People aren’t, in the main, hating on Sam. They are – rightly IMO – pointing out that his actions were completely ooc.

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35. I’m not sure yet how I feel about her, but I just wanted to give everyone a heads up on Amelia. What she said to Sam when he brought the dog in is dead-on accurate what every vet and nurse thinks of the jokers who think dumping an animal off at the vet makes them some kind of hero. We just can’t say it because it would not be good for business.

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    1. [quote]I’m not sure yet how I feel about her, but I just wanted to give everyone a heads up on Amelia. What she said to Sam when he brought the dog in is dead-on accurate what every vet and nurse thinks of the jokers who think dumping an animal off at the vet makes them some kind of hero. We just can’t say it because it would not be good for business.[/quote]
       Thumbs up.

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    2. That’s really interesting, anon. Given that we’ve been told that Amelia is going through major stuff of her own, maybe she’s just responding to stress by being more unfiltered in her responses than she normally would be.

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    3. I do understand the frustration of that. But Sam didn’t dump the dog. He brought it in, he waited to see how it was doing. If Amelia had asked is he was going to pay for the treatment, I would have been fine with that. Heck, it would have helped Sam look better if he found a job to pay for the treatment because he didn’t want the give her a phony credit card. That could have been the start point for him going for the normal life. He was just intending to pay the debt and then move on to finding Dean, or doing whatever and he just got caught up in living his normal existence.

       I’ll also ask. If someone hits a dog, do you immediately just tell them they have to take it? What if they tell you that they have a job where they travel and can’t take care of the dog properly? Do you at least try and find if the dog already has an owner? I’m not being snarky, I’m really curious. My problem was with Amelia browbeating Sam into keeping a dog he had already stated he didn’t have the resources to take care of. She could tell him he wasn’t a hero for bringing it in. She had every right to press him for her fees. I was just thrown by the you break it, you buy it philosophy. Most rescues and even some pounds wont allow an animal to be adopted unless there is proof the person can take care of the animal. At the very least they make certain an adopter WANTS an animal, just to make sure the dog or cat will be fed and loved.

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    4. She was still a bitch. The dog ran out in the street, and Sam [i]accidentally[/i] hit it. I’m sure there are people who would keep on driving, but he stopped, got the dog and found a vet hospital. He never claimed to be a “hero.” He waited around to hear about the dog – again, something I’m sure most people wouldn’t do.

       And all he got for his trouble was some witch yelling at him for not keeping the stray and behaving as if he purposefully mowed the poor thing down.

       It was not a good impression for her. I have ZERO desire to see romance on this show, and I definitely don’t want to see it w/witches who yell at the boys for no good reason.

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36. [quote]Actually, Katie, though of course it’s speculative, I think Carver had a very deliberate direction in mind in what he’s doing with Sam. I’m still very unsure whether his writing choice is one I’ll be able to follow, and I’m inclined to agree with you that interviews indicate that there won’t be a transformative plot twist, but I don’t think his Sam decisions are careless or malicious. Think about it; he’s following for Dean a storyline that splices very easily with the finale; his choices there don’t seem like a radical departure from what was set up by Carver’s predecessors. For Sam, on the other hand, he chose a very different direction from what Gamble seemed to have planned. I think that change of direction is responsible for some of the awkwardness in Sam’s story, and that’s unfortunate, but I certainly don’t think it suggests that Sam’s arc was any kind of afterthought for Carver. It may turn out to be an arc that I find very offputting, but it certainly seems to be one that comes out of a story Carver wants very much to tell, and sees as sympathetic.[/quote]

    My predominant attitude towards the Sam storyline is still to expect further revelations down the road that will help us understand Sam’s actions and attitude in the last year. Judging from Carver’s previous work, I have no reason to think that he is such a spectacularly bad storyteller that he would discard huge chunks of Sam’s characterization over the years and write in this huge discontinuity and leave it at that. But if there are such revelations in store, they could have done a much better job of hinting that there were darker, weightier elements to come in Sam’s story. We can speculate that he had a breakdown, but again, there’s no real sign of it. As it is, Sam looks fine in the flashback, albeit unusually agitated over the dog, unlike in Season 4, when he looked like something the cat dragged in. So far, it seems like Sam threw in the towel because he was kind of bummed at how things turned out. Our faith in the storyline is really based on our knowledge of Sam from the previous seven seasons of work, not anything that happens in this episode, so I can’t call it a successful piece of writing.

    Even though I expect the show to eventually make more sense of all this, I admit to some doubts. I wonder whether Carver is so in love with the concept of the tension between “normal” and “hunter” that he has forced Sam and Dean back into a close copy of their Seasons 1-2 roles, with Dean as the ruthless one and Sam as the reluctant one, and in the process he’s sacrificing Sam’s credibility as a character. Both brothers have had their moments of wanting normal and regretting the sacrifices they’ve had to make, but you can’t simply wipe away the material about Sam also coming to embrace the life of a hunter. It’s almost like hitting the reset button in crooked fashion.

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    1. [quote]Both brothers have had their moments of wanting normal and regretting the sacrifices they’ve had to make, but you can’t simply wipe away the material about Sam also[i][b] coming to embrace the life of a hunter[/b][/i]. It’s almost like hitting the reset button in crooked fashion.[/quote]

       This! ‘coming to embrace the life of a hunter’.
       That’s why it baffles me. In season 5 ‘Swap Meat’ Sam said that he did not regret that he lost the chance to live ‘normal’ life after he experienced a day in the body of the teenage boy. He said in ‘The French Mistakes’ he refused to stay back in the alternative universe. I believe Dean would let him stay otherwise or better yet, stay with Sam in that universe. In Season two WIAWSNB, Sam’s the one who reminded Dean that ‘at least we’re talking’.

       That is the Sam that I know. Three times that they were given the chance to live a different life and Dean gave Sam an out but SAM was the one who refused. After Dean’s permanent break up with Lisa, Sam’s the one who said ‘I got your back, Dean’ His way of saying ‘I love you Dean and I won’t leave you’.

       I still hope against hope that this Sam is still there somewhere. And this plot is just a sham.

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       1. But there’s also one other side to this. Sam stays a hunter as long as Dean is around. Look at him- whatever friends they had in the hunter world were mostly Dean’s friends. Sam only always had Dean, Dean was kind of his anchor. Sure, he embraced the hunting life, but even in the French Mistake, his basic reason for going back was that “We aren’t even brothers here.” Without Dean, believing he’s dead, and totally alone, I don’t see Sam still hunting.
          Plus, he says “I didn’t simply drop out, I found something, something I never had in my life” which is probably also the reason he found his life to be worth living. He found someone to live for.

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    2. I actually agree with every word of this. Like I said in one of my other posts, I think it’s only fair to reserve judgment for now, but I also think there’s a strong possibility that Carver has in fact made a very fundamental error here, one that will really destroy my respect for his writing and my enjoyment of the show.

       I get that he’d been away for two years and that, given that Spn has an unusually compartmentalized and uncommunicative writing structure/process, he most likely didn’t have a comprehensive knowledge of the show even then. And there probably simply wasn’t time, given his commitment to his other project and the tightness of the schedule to get the ball rolling on s8, for him to immerse himself in the show. So, all that. BUT under those circumstances I think that choosing such an instant and radical departure for one of the characters was a risky and maybe irresponsible move. Returning Sam and Dean to something more like their initial positions was too easy a move, going against the storyline 7.23 set up for Sam was too difficult a move, and the combination could well be a disastrous move.

       (Also, I think there’s a certain muddle in the thinking there. The contrast and developments Carver wanted could all have been accomplished without the move of having Sam not look for Dean at all. I don’t think the hunting stuff would be a major problem if it weren’t for that. And, at least in interviews, Carver and Singer are resting a lot of their desire for that particular move on what, despite some counterarguments, I still think is simply a mistake about the content of canon, this supposed promise that Sam and Dean wouldn’t look for each other.)

       If this goes down as badly as I fear rather than as well as I hope, Singer may be the one who comes out the worst in my opinion, given that he is in the perfect position to play continuity guy, and should have been compensating for Carver’s unavoidable reacclimation period. So I don’t want to seem like I’m whaling on Carver unfairly, although in one sense the buck is always going to stop with the showrunner.

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       1. You know . . . I can’t give JC a pass for not catching up on the show before he agreed to sign on as showrunner. If I agreed to start writing for a show, I would want to get the history of the show and figure out what the characters have been doing.

          IMO, Sam gave up the idea of normal a looong time ago. I mean even Soulless Sam hunted, so this idea that Sam would simply stop hunting and drive around aimlessly for months makes no sense. And it is not all characteristic of Sam – not even Season 1 Sam would do this.

          This characterization makes no sense, and I fear that it’s not a plot twist but rather a fundamental misunderstanding of who Sam is. Sam, like many people, has been shaped and molded by his experiences. While I don’t think Sam enjoys hunting, I do think he feels a responsibility to help others and do this job. I’m sure he felt that way at the end of Season 7, so it’s hard to relate to this “new” Sam who doesn’t care about Dean, Kevin, or anything else.

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37. I loved the episode.I commend supernatural for still being interesting after 7 seasons.I liked everything about the episode and am eager to see where this leads to.I liked this Sam as well as this Dean ( taking into account their season 7 and 1year experience).Benny , Kevin look like good additions and i liked whatever i saw of Amelia.

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38. Two questions,
    1) what were the first two songs in this episode?I especially liked the second one.
    2)Who is Sasha grey ?
    I am eagerly waiting for Robin’s rambles so i can under stand some of the references.

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    1. one of them is by styx and when i went to you tube one poster had got 350 thumbs up within one day after commenting the comment”Thumbs up? if Supernatural brought you here!”

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       1. Jethro tull the first song..so good

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       2. [quote]Sometimes the writers strike intervenes. Sometimes Sam’s story is being “played in the background”, sometimes we get told that Sam is the vessel for the ultimate evil and then they switch to Dean’s pain at finding out he is Michael’s vessel. Sometimes we get Soulless!Sam and then a wall that doesn’t allow us to see what Sam went through, sometimes we get Sam’s wall breaking and him being sane as sane can be, even though we are told that he is having 24/7 Satan vision and then and angel magics away his pain.[/quote]This has happened .Yes and i too have felt bad about them and commented about them also but i don’t know why this time it feels different…..I really hope i am right

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    2. I had to Google her, but Sasha Grey was a porn star who went on to star in non-porn and highly regarded movies.

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       1. Thanks,it makes sense now.

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39. The posts here have made me feel as if possibly JC is planning something about Sam’s story to be different than what we have seen. My biggest problem is that I’ve been there and done that and somehow the writers don’t ever seem to get to the Sam part. Sometimes the writers strike intervenes. Sometimes Sam’s story is being “played in the background”, sometimes we get told that Sam is the vessel for the ultimate evil and then they switch to Dean’s pain at finding out he is Michael’s vessel. Sometimes we get Soulless!Sam and then a wall that doesn’t allow us to see what Sam went through, sometimes we get Sam’s wall breaking and him being sane as sane can be, even though we are told that he is having 24/7 Satan vision and then and angel magics away his pain.

    I know the argument can be made that none of that happened under JC, but he was there for some of the seasons. The most of the writing staff hasn’t changed that much either. Bob Singer is still around as co-producer or possibly co-show runner, I was never clear about his part in the chain of command for season six and seven. The thing that really concerns me are the reports of Jared’s set time. We have been told that he gets to go home because he had five straight days with no shooting. We have someone tweet that they met Misha at a mall and he was saying that it was the first time he had a break in 17 days. We have Jensen “jokingly” tell the fans to ask the writers for more Sam time. It’s lovely to think that they are going to delve into Sam’s past year and we will understand why he made this seemingly OOC decision, but it’s really hard to delve into anything when Jared isn’t on set to film it. For too many years the show has decided that Sam’s story will be told in the back half, then things happen and Sam’s story is left hanging, often to only be shown in one or if we are lucky two episodes as the season is wrapping up. So right now, I’m not all that convinced that Sam will be anything but a guy who made no attempt to find Dean and who left Kevin twisting in the wind.

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    1. Singers role was to control budget matters, because SG ran over-budget. That’s in the production/financial end of the business. SG was the showrunner and controlled the story and execution of the story. Singer is on-site in Vancouver, so he made sense that SG approved the ideas and the writers’ scripts and Singer tried to keep it all within the budget limits set for each episode.

       I have a hard time empathsizing with the complaints that Sam is slighted. In the overall season, the brothers get equal screen time; perhaps not in every single episode, but in most every single episode.

       As far as stories, every single one of Sam’s stories has been told and a resolution reached. I can’t say that I liked the direction some of those stories took or how they were executed, but they were told and resolved, and that includes S7 Sam. I think we all agree, however, that S7 wasn’t about either brother and neither brother was explored in any way. Both were wallpaper.

       I think the real danger in S8 is not that Sam will be slighted, but that the support characters will again play a huge role and get fully explored and advanced to the detriment of both brothers (and to give both Js a lot of time off) as Carver tries to expand the SPNverse. While I’m all in favor of an expanded verse, I’m not sure I will like the type of characters he expands it with and I am not in favor of an ensemble cast — never have been, because you get 2 – 10 minutes of a character I like and the rest of the story is about characters I don’t like (depending on how large the ensemble cast is). I know last year I thought they used the J2s the absolute minimum amount of time they could get by with.

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       1. [quote]Singers role was to control budget matters, because SG ran over-budget. That’s in the production/financial end of the business. SG was the showrunner and controlled the story and execution of the story.[/quote]
          While I admit not knowing much about their roles, Singer is credited with pitching the soulless Sam, the wall, and the Butch and Sundance storylines, so he obviously had some significant input into the creative side of the show. Did Gamble have final word on the creative storylines? I don’t know. It’s possible. But it’s also possible that Singer’s and Kripke’s opinions (when Kripke was playing a more active role in season 6) had as much if not more weight in that area. It could be that Singer pitching an idea was like the CEO pitching an idea to the VP of a company. Technically the final word still rests with the VP, but if the VP wants a future in the company, the CEO’s idea had better happen.

          [quote]I have a hard time empathsizing with the complaints that Sam is slighted. In the overall season, the brothers get equal screen time; perhaps not in every single episode, but in most every single episode.[/quote]
          I don’t have significant issues with the balance in seasons 1-5, so I’m speaking only of the last two seasons here. I think both Sam and Dean have about equal time in the monster of the week cases. But when it comes to interaction with the reoccurring guests who are usually closely tied to the bigger storyline (i.e. Crowley, Cas, Bobby, Death), it’s hard to argue that Sam has equal interaction with them as Dean. And because most of these past two seasons have been positioned as being from Dean’s POV, we have many more scenes of Dean just processing things – sitting at a bar chatting up a bartender, chatting with Bobby, etc.

          [quote]I think we all agree, however, that S7 wasn’t about either brother and neither brother was explored in any way. Both were wallpaper.[/quote]
          Agree here.

          [quote]I think the real danger in S8 is not that Sam will be slighted, but that the support characters will again play a huge role and get fully explored and advanced to the detriment of both brothers (and to give both Js a lot of time off) as Carver tries to expand the SPNverse.[/quote]
          I’m not so worried about that. I’m pretty confident that Carver has heard the criticisms in that regard, and his focus on Sam and Dean in the premiere is a good sign that the season will center on the brothers. I think the show can have a lot of interesting guests and reoccurring characters without losing that focus. Seasons 1-5 were good examples of that. I am however concerned that he and the rest of the writers will continue the trend of focusing most of their creative energy on Dean. Most of the current writers have shown that they’re just not interested much in Sam, which makes sense since it’s been a while since Sam was a really interesting character. But of course, he’s not going to become interesting again until the writers focus some attention on him.

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          1. I don’t want or mean to argue, as I think we all have a perspective on the show that is just as valid as anyone elses’, but let me just respond to your points based on my own perspective.

             Singer: Yes, as a writer and someone who has been with the show since the beginning, Singer can pitch the story. Apparently, he ideas were used, and then poorly executed. In the same vein, I have always believed that EK had a more forceful effect on S6 than anyone realized. As showrunner, though, the final say on the direction of the sow and in accepting the writers’ scripts rested with SG. If the decisions were in name only, than that would be another area of her job that she was totally ineffective in. Her title was showrunner, and that job means that you take the credit for success and responsibility for failures.

             Singer didn’t start coming out front with producer interviews until after the decision was made that SG would be stepping down and working on other projects. Interviews and scriptwriting are not Singers’ strengths, but he brings a lot to the table in the production aspect, especially in direction, of the show.

             Yes, Dean has always had more interaction with most of the guest stars. I think that is kind of organic in that he is the older brother and he is the leader. Besides that, and this is only my opinion, Dean is more connected to the SPNverse than Sam is; therefore, he interacts more with the hunters, demons, angels and such. Sam does better with and gets more of dealing with the normal people; interviewing, victims, and such.

             Also, since the last two years of Sam story has been (1) soulless, (2) re-souled, but not supposed to be scratching, and (3) nuts, I don’t think the story could have been told from Sam’s POV in that, referring back to (1) he was supposed to be emotionless and Dean was trying for half a season to figure out what was wrong with him, (2) there weren’t supposed to be memories or it would drive him nuts, and (3) he was nuts.

             Sam did, however, get all of the acting challenges, while Dean emoted, drank, wrung his hands in angst, and drank.

             Neither brother was done a favor character-wise in S6 or S7.

             Sam: We have absolutely proof at all that the writers are not interested in Sam. That is an opinion and perspective of some fans. Sam not being an interesting character is more directly associated with fans not liking the direction picked for the character or the storylines picked for him.

             I’m not all the wrapped in Sam’s character, and haven’t been for a while now, because I didn’t like the storylines picked for him — picking Ruby over Dean, his downhill slide, returning soulless, ineffectively nuts, and this season, his love interest story. But then, I hated and bitched mightily about Dean’s love interest and all the moaning last year. Doesn’t mean I don’t like Sam or I don’t like Dean — I much prefer they both have good stories, and that last time I saw that was S3.

             I don’t think Sam’s going to become interesting again until his story plays out this season, because I think both characters were put into a somewhat organic position by placing them where they are to get them back to the two characters all the fans can recognize and like. At least, that’s what I hope will happen as the two stories play out over the season.

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             1. I don’t want to argue, but I just want to quickly respond to some of these points.

                I put a lot of blame/credit for the past couple of seasons on Gamble. More so than anyone else. But Singer shared the leadership role with her, and as a co-executive, I feel he shouldn’t be excused from all responsibility. As I said, I don’t know enough about their jobs, and I wasn’t a fly on the wall there, so I can’t really judge. I’m just saying I doubt Sera ever had complete autonomy.

                [quote]Yes, Dean has always had more interaction with most of the guest stars. I think that is kind of organic in that he is the older brother and he is the leader. Besides that, and this is only my opinion, Dean is more connected to the SPNverse than Sam is; therefore, he interacts more with the hunters, demons, angels and such. Sam does better with and gets more of dealing with the normal people; interviewing, victims, and such.[/quote]
                I have a few problems with these points. The first is that Dean should be the leader because he’s the older brother. As a younger sibling, I understand family roles well. Growing up, older siblings are the leaders and boss you around. But then something happens. Younger siblings rebel as teenagers, they growm up and create their own lives and careers, take on responsibilities, and develop their voices. Older siblings sometimes still try to be leader, but like Dean often finds, that doesn’t always work out so well.

                My second problem is the assumption that if there was a leader, that leader should have a more prominent role in the story. There’s no rule to say who should have more screen time, more interaction with other characters, or with supernatural characters. Sam, like Dean, has been hunting since he was a child, so there’s no reason why he wouldn’t be as comfortable around the supernatural as Dean would.

                [quote]Also, since the last two years of Sam story has been (1) soulless, (2) re-souled, but not supposed to be scratching, and (3) nuts, I don’t think the story could have been told from Sam’s POV in that, referring back to (1) he was supposed to be emotionless and Dean was trying for half a season to figure out what was wrong with him, (2) there weren’t supposed to be memories or it would drive him nuts, and (3) he was nuts.[/quote]
                Again, with the exception of the four months Sam was soulless, I don’t see this as any reason why Sam shouldn’t have had equal POV in the storyline. Even if we didn’t see as much of his own memories, there’s no reason why more of the main arc couldn’t have been told from Sam’s perspective.

                [quote]Sam did, however, get all of the acting challenges, while Dean emoted, drank, wrung his hands in angst, and drank.[/quote]
                I think Jensen has had some great acting opportunities. He had a chance to talk about his time in Hell, how torturing changed him, how he felt about all the pressures that the angels were putting on him. I also think Jared had a great acting opportunity with soulless Sam, the hallunciations, and the demon blood arc. Maybe this slants a little more toward Jared, but I wouldn’t say that he has had “all” of the acting challenges.

                [quote]We have absolutely proof at all that the writers are not interested in Sam. That is an opinion and perspective of some fans.[/quote]
                I agree. It’s an opinion based on what I’ve observed on the show, based on interviews I’ve read, podcasts I’ve listened to, etc.

                [quote]Sam not being an interesting character is more directly associated with fans not liking the direction picked for the character or the storylines picked for him.[/quote]
                Disagree here. I think there’s been a clear tendency in the past couple of seasons to not delve very deeply into the emotions and complexities that make Sam interesting. I can only attribute this to a lack of interest on the part of the writers. It makes Sam a less interesting character when he’s not as engaged in the storyline, not written with as much emotional depth, and not given the same snappy dialogue as some of the other characters.

             2. We will agree to disagree, because nothing will change minds at this point. There was so much wrong going on behind the scenes the last couple of years because of the lack of strong leadership, and we’ll never know the whole story. I do not believe, and never will; however, that the writers would deliberately try to ignore one-half of the team that is their meal ticket and one of the two actors that has made this show so successful. That would be just plain stupid. And we all know that fan devotion to this show is directly the result of the J2s and their wonderful work as repayment to those devoted fans.

    2. Good points, Percy! For me, it is best to expect the worst. Last year, I was way too hopeful after HCW, so the fall back to reality was hard and left me quite bitter. Admittedly, I’m still shocked over how much Sera & Co. wasted the potential Sam’s story had after HCW. So much could have been done w/his hallucinations but so little occurred. It was quite devastating actually.

       Right now, I see Sam as being very OOC and “off.” I didn’t think the premiere was the greatest premiere ever; it was okay to me. On a scale of 10, I’d give it a 5. Everything felt “off” to me. I wasn’t sure why Sam went to the cabin. Sam didn’t seem happy or shocked to see Dean. Dean made that weird comment, “Let’s do this.” There was no emotional signifance or weight to that scene. The whole thing felt “off,” but since JC didn’t drop any obvious hints that more was going on w/Sam, I won’t expect to see any.

       Basically, I’m just going to assume JC understands very little about Sam, which is why he is so hugely OOC right now. I am prepared for Sam to remain OOC the entire season. If something happens down the line to change my mind about that, then great, but for now, I have to assume JC doesn’t “get” Sam.

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40. [quote]the brothers get equal screen time[/quote]No[quote]how they were executed,[/quote]They executed it like Sam was a secondary character that was the problem.You( The showrunners) want to show the show from Dean’s POV,it is ok but since it is a show with two leads not one at some important junctures in Sam’s life show some Sam pov that is all i ask.

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41. Yes to that, please, more Sam p.o.v.
    I dunno, having seen this episode I remain sort of positive about the direction Carver is taking.
    Sure, he could have made Sam look for Dean, or make a deal with an alpha and as a die hard Sam girl, I would totally eat it up, but that would be fan fiction. To say it’s a crime that he chose this direction for the story when he could choose any other would be like asking Singer to direct one fan fiction story per week. Let the writers have their freedom to choose their direction. Kripke could have chosen to do things so differently in the beginning, but he chose this and that’s why we have Supernatural the way it is. Maybe we wont like it and maybe we will, but Things get interesting when we don’t know what’s going to happen, when things go against the way we’d like them to and at the end of the season, all the strings get tied up all pretty.

    The brothers never made the rule that they wouldn’t look for each other because they always knew where the other was going every time they separated. Plus, I don’t think we should take “look” literally- Dean could have meant to encompass everything they usually did to get back the other- demon deals, soul selling, all under the one umbrella of ‘look’.

    Right now I am ecstatic with all the story lines S8 promises, and I like this Sam. There was a sadness to him and I’m sure he knows more than he’s letting on. I like that he’s in a possibly better mental state, and it’ll be nice if for once he gets a break and dont get screwed over.

    (somewhere, someone posted that the basic difference with this new Sam was that he “really, really wants to live” and if that’s true, that’s a good place to be)

    I’ll wait and watch, and if at the end of the season Sam is still acting ooc, then I’ll be yelling right along with everyone else. Till then, and so far, I’m a happy camper.

    Reply

42. Jeremey Carver is an excellent writer and I trust him that he will take the show to a new height. I just wish that they explain why Sam didn’t look for Dean. I am sure that there is more than what meets the eye. Maybe, Sam was told to not to look for Dean because somebody asked him to. I think that there is a fair possibility that something major would have happened with Sam that he decided to quit hunting. It is so unlike Sam to ditch hunting especially with Kevin missing and above all quit looking for Dean. Also the way he left Amelia was just not the way you leave somebody whom you love. If he would have really loved Amelia, he would have not left her like that. I think Amelia was just a portrayal of a happy life that Sam wished for but I don’t think he was in ‘LOVE’ with her. I hope they do explain why Sam didn’t look for Dean with a solid reason. I am neither a Sam girl or a Dean girl. I love them both to death but Sam not looking out for Dean is just not correct. I hope writers do get that will have to face criticism by fans for portraying Sam like that. Last point, those who are arguing that Dean also left hunting while leaving with Lisa, I don’t agree to that. As soon as he sensed that something was wrong in the first episode of Season 6, he got back to hunt that thing. That is not even the point, the point here is that Sam stopped looking for Dean while Dean tried to bring back Sam throughout that year even though Sam asked him not to. Sam here had the bigger objective than what Dean had in Season 6. Sam should have looked for Kevin because he was his responsibility. He was the only clue Sam had and he should have pursued it. For past seven seasons Sam has not deterred from his responsibility and so it is difficult for me to digest the fact that he could have gotten so selfish. I just can’t accept that fact. I know that Jeremy Carver would definitely address this point in the further episodes. I have my fingers crossed.

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43. [quote]I know a lot of people are disappointed that Sam and Dean are at odds in episode one. But they’ve got a whole season to sort out their relationship and I’m pretty happy that there’s a whole bunch of new stuff set up in the first episode that leaves me unable to predict what will happen next. I think it would be boring if it repeated itself, as much as I loved seasons one and two![/quote]
    I agree that eventually they will sort out their relationship. They always do. But the more times the writers break them apart the less credible it is that they could ever put such a damaged Humpty-Dumpty back together again. Also the LAST thing I want to watch is a whole season of angst while the ‘put their relationship back together’. You are – rightly – asking for the writers to give us something fresh. Well IMO yet more artificially induced, done for dramatic effect, not in character conflict between Dean and Sam is about as fresh as month old fish, and the prospect of it is stinking up s8 on a major scale.

    I am not arguing for going back to s1/2 and undoing all the character development since. Quite the reverse. IMO all they have been through and survived would / should have strengthened their bond and solidified their trust in each other.

    I have no interest in them spending the whole season at odds only to come together in ep 21 just in time for the finale. It is tired. It has been done before. No one is fooled by the drama of it because we all know they will sort it out. And it isn’t fun to watch.

    I want to see Dean and Sam fighting the bad guys as a unit, drawing strength from and supporting each other. THAT would at this stage be far more original than what they started in ep1 and seem to have planned for the season.

    Plus sadly (and this is a personal view. I know others disagree) I am not remotely interested in Benny, Cas, Amelia or what either brother got up to when they were apart. I loathe time jumps – which hasn’t helped with my enthusiasm levels. I HATE with a passion that Sam has been written so ooc, and that they didn’t have Sam rescue Dean. I hate what they are planning for the bros relationship. In fact the only bit of s8 that is intriguing to me is the story of the Word of God, Kevin and Crowley.

    Hope it turns out better than it is looking at the moment!!

    Reply

    1. Hi Geordiegirl1967- Just my 2 cents, but the brothers being at odds is kinda what they do. Now I’m not talking about the being at each others throat kind of thing. Been there. I don’t think they are anywhere near that now. Despite their differences they are working as a unit, drawing strength and being supportive of one another.They will never ever see eye to eye all the time. Granted there is tension being set up but I personally can live with that if the story that unfolds is interesting. Right now they have my attention. We will see how the season goes. I think it’s a little early in the game to say how Sam’s side of things will evolve. Also a little early to say what they are planning for brothers relationship. Maybe you won’t “hate” all this so much as the season goes on. I hope so. I really don’t want to feel about S8 what I felt about S7. Gotta say, didn’t love it.

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       1. [quote]Hi Geordiegirl1967- Just my 2 cents, but the brothers being at odds is kinda what they do. Now I’m not talking about the being at each others throat kind of thing. Been there. I don’t think they are anywhere near that now. Despite their differences they are working as a unit, drawing strength and being supportive of one another.[/quote]

          See I disagree that the brothers being at odds is ‘what they do’. It really isn’t. Of course they have always bickered, and had disagreements. That is realistic for brothers. But there is a HUGE difference IMO between the kinds of things they disagreed about in s1,2,3 and 5 with s4 / this situation in s8.

          In s1,2,3,5 their arguments were based on their love for each other. They came from a place where they both loved the other, and wanted to help/save them, but they disagreed on how eg how to save Dean from his deal, how Sam could give Dean the strength to say no to Michael etc. Even in s4 (the – so far – worst season for the bros relationship) Sam’s downfall came out of his grief, loneliness and depression over losing Dean. And in between times in those seasons we saw how they really felt about each other. We believed that for each brother, losing the other is the worse thing they could imagine because they were such a strong unit, got on so well, shared so much, had so much in common etc. That is where the drama came from – from our knowing how devastating it would be for them to lose each other.

          S6 broke that feeling somehow when it went for the time jump and then soulless Sam. Dean coped for a year without Sam. Was he happy? No. That was obvious. But he coped. And now they have rehashed the (IMO) dreaded momentum-breaking, writing-cheat time jump device again and Sam has done the same. And suddenly losing your brother isn’t the worst thing. It is survivable, and life out of hunting can even be fun at times. And suddenly one of the underlying truths of the show has been undermined. In doing this, they have diffused the emotional punch, have downgraded what they have to lose so that the stakes feel much lower and much of the drama is gone.

          I hear people saying that they don’t think the boys should be so co-dependent. That it isn’t healthy. Of course it isn’t healthy. If they were real people I’d be saying ‘get out there. Meet other people. Try to build your own separate lives’. But Dean and Sam are fictional characters, and I don’t want that for them. For one thing, as I said above, losing that co-dependency dilutes the stakes in the show and takes away from the bond between the brothers which is its emotional heart. For another, that co-dependency is their greatest strength in the hunting life.

          So going back to whether the brothers are ‘always at odds’ – we need to think about the sources of their arguments. In s1,2,3,5 there was never any question in anyones mind that they loved each other. In s2 Sam wanted Dean to kill him if he turned bad. Dean refused. Both motivated by love. Sam even said ‘I don’t want to hurt anyone. I don’t want to hurt you’. And Dean replied ‘I can’t. I’d rather die’. When the show was at its best they, if anything, loved each other TOO MUCH (eg Dean’s deal).

          In contrast, in s8 the arguments are about them not loving each other ENOUGH. Dean is – rightly -deeply hurt that Sam didn’t look for him. That introduces doubt – in his mind and ours – about how much he really matters to Sam. The relationship with Benny looks like the same deal from Sam’s perspective. It makes us doubt whether they are the most important people to each other. Does Sam prefer Amelia? Does Dean prefer Benny? Those Qs would NEVER have been asked in previous seasons. What we are seeing now is a fundamentally different, and much more worrying, kind of ‘being at odds’ than we’ve seen in the past and one that IMO undermines the very essence, and main source of dramatic tension in the show. So I see it as a HUGE, potentially show-ruining, issue. Not just an ‘oh its always like this – they’ll sort it out’ issue.

          Reply

          1. And don’t forget Season 7! To me, that was the worst season for the brothers and their “bond.” They barely interacted and behaved more like co-workers than brothers w/a deep bond. It was strange b/c the brothers worked fine together after Sam’s soul was returned. Dean was very concerned about the Wall in S6, and then after HCW, he just wasn’t. Sam expressed some concern about Dean’s inexplicable depression, but not a lot. Heck, SS and Dean had a deeper bond than S7 Sam & Dean! It’s like they were each in their own world!

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          2. Geordiegirl1967-I agree that Dean is rightly hurt that Sam apparently didn’t look for him. My point is they are at odds often. I also agree this is a more personal issue than some in the past. I just don’t think the show will push it until there is a huge rift in their relationship. At least I HOPE not. Not again!! I could be way off base, but I am with those optimists(maybe foolishly so)who believe things will be revealed in such a way that Sam won’t look like he just did not care. We are not really that far apart in what we want for the brothers relationship. You say you “hate” what they planning for the relationship. I wondered how you would know after one episode? I would not be happy if the story led to “show-ruining” issues. Furthermore why would they even do that? Anyway thanks for the reply and I really hope this season see’s a strengthening of the brothers relationship and bond also. They are still working together well so far. We’ll see. I am not as worried as you, I think. But we still want the same things!!

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          3. [quote]But Dean and Sam are fictional characters, and I don’t want that for them. For one thing, as I said above, losing that co-dependency dilutes the stakes in the show and takes away from the bond between the brothers which is its emotional heart. For another, that co-dependency is their greatest strength in the hunting life.[/quote]

             Yes, absolutely agree with your point here. I don’t want to watch supernatural without their so called unhealthy co-dependent relationship. Because the show will becomes like any other drama/chick flick show on TV.

             The co-dependency is not only their greatest strength in the hunting life but it’s also something unique that only Supernatural, our favorite show, has. Taking that away will be the end of Supernatural.

             [quote]So going back to whether the brothers are ‘always at odds’ – we need to think about the sources of their arguments. In s1,2,3,5 there was never any question in anyones mind that they loved each other. In s2 Sam wanted Dean to kill him if he turned bad. Dean refused. Both motivated by love. Sam even said ‘I don’t want to hurt anyone. I don’t want to hurt you’. And Dean replied ‘I can’t. I’d rather die’. When the show was at its best they, if anything, loved each other TOO MUCH (eg Dean’s deal).

             In contrast, in s8 the arguments are about them not loving each other ENOUGH. Dean is – rightly -deeply hurt that Sam didn’t look for him. That introduces doubt – in his mind and ours – about how much he really matters to Sam. The relationship with Benny looks like the same deal from Sam’s perspective. It makes us doubt whether they are the most important people to each other. Does Sam prefer Amelia? Does Dean prefer Benny? Those Qs would NEVER have been asked in previous seasons. What we are seeing now is a fundamentally different, and much more worrying, kind of ‘being at odds’ than we’ve seen in the past and one that IMO undermines the very essence, and main source of dramatic tension in the show. So I see it as a HUGE, potentially show-ruining, issue. Not just an ‘oh its always like this – they’ll sort it out’ issue.[/quote]

             Oh, it’s definitely instill a doubt in my mind with the way they write Sam this way. Really, Geordiegirl1967, you rise good point there and you summed it up brilliantly.

             We’ve seen in past season that the core problem and the beauty of the show was about they love each other TOO much so that they became each other’s Achilles heels. I don’t think that love that DEEP and that ABIDING cannot that easily being taken away. It should NOT be that easy to be taken away either by Amelia, a stray dog or Vamp Benny.

             Introducing these new OC only serve to unnecessary angst and making fans question again about the depth of their love with each other. Season 4 had done that. Enough heartbreak please. 😥

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    2. [quote]I am not arguing for going back to s1/2 and undoing all the character development since. Quite the reverse. IMO all they have been through and survived would / should have strengthened their bond and solidified their trust in each other. [/quote]

       I agree with you Geordiegirl1967. My brother and I fought a lot when we were teenagers because we are both hotheaded and have different takes on everything. But now that we’ve grown up, our experiences in live have us matured. We’re still the same person but like you said about [i]strengthened the bond and solidified trust[/i]. It’s true.

       [quote]Plus sadly (and this is a personal view. I know others disagree) I am not remotely interested in Benny, Cas, Amelia or what either brother got up to when they were apart. I loathe time jumps – which hasn’t helped with my enthusiasm levels. I HATE with a passion that Sam has been written so ooc, and that they didn’t have Sam rescue Dean. I hate what they are planning for the bros relationship. In fact the only bit of s8 that is intriguing to me is the story of the Word of God, Kevin and Crowley.

       Hope it turns out better than it is looking at the moment!![/quote]

       You said it well. I am worried of this side plotline too. I don’t like a repeat chasm. The problem in season 4, for me personally and I don’t expect every one agree with me, is that the chasm only stop after Ruby revealed her true plan. So, Sam return to Dean’s side NOT because of his own want/thinking. IF Ruby did not reveal her plan until well through season 5, I think they would not come together. Just because of the vessel business, Dean became Michaels’ and Sam was Lucifers’ they returned to each other. It looked like they did it because of outside’s influences.

       The only episode where Sam left that I like is when Sam met Meg for the first time. That time Meg tried to drag Sam away, saying that she too ran away from her family, but Sam is not that easy to convinced. Sam returned. By his own choice, by his own want Sam returned and just in time to help Dean with the scarecrow.

       That was beautiful. It was a proof of their brotherly bond. You know the ‘deep abiding love for each other’ kinda thing that they are supposed to have?

       Personally, I Want To See That Again in season 8.

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       1. [quote]You know the ‘deep abiding love for each other’ kinda thing that they are supposed to have?

          Personally, I Want To See That Again in season 8.[/quote]

          Me too – but it broke my heart that JC had Dean say that so sarcastically. It was almost like he was dismissing it as ridiculous, when it is (well – was) the heart, and underlying premis, of the show.

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          1. [quote]Me too – but it broke my heart that JC had Dean say that so sarcastically. It was almost like he was dismissing it as ridiculous, when it is (well – was) the heart, and underlying premis, of the show.[/quote]

             Although it did hurt to hear the sarcasm, it fits with Dean’s general sense of unworthiness and being unlovable. Dean has always doubted Sam’s love and commitment and it becomes especially pronounced when Sam goes in a direction different from Dean. Way back in season one, Dean couldn’t wrap his head around the idea that Sam could continue to love Dean and be his brother if he went back to college after killing the YED. Now finding out that Sam has dropped the family business and far, far worse didn’t even seemingly care enough to look for him has probably ramped up Dean’s insecurities. It’s completely understandable especially because it does seem OOC for Sam to not even try. I’m hoping that as we find out more about Sam’s actions they become more understandable, and that Dean will understand them more. But right now he is coming out of a situation where he had to live keyed up and on edge for a year. He also had Benny who he seems to believe had his back totally. So right now for Dean, Sam looks like the guy who really doesn’t have an deep abiding love for Dean. I know Dean is wrong, but Dean is reacting to his understandable hurt.

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             1. This is Kaj, just too lazy to log in. 😛

                [quote]Dean has always doubted Sam’s love and commitment and it becomes especially pronounced when Sam goes in a direction different from Dean. Way back in season one, Dean couldn’t wrap his head around the idea that Sam could continue to love Dean and be his brother if he went back to college after killing the YED.

                Now finding out that Sam has dropped the family business and far, far worse didn’t even seemingly care enough to look for him has probably ramped up Dean’s insecurities. [/quote]

                Yes, it’s true percysowner. And not only Dean who felt like that, personally I too felt lack of proof. I know Sam loves Dean, I know, but I can’t just go on based assumption without enough proof.

                [quote]It’s completely understandable especially because it does seem OOC for Sam to not even try. I’m hoping that as we find out more about Sam’s actions they become more understandable, and that Dean will understand them more. .[/quote]

                And of course makes me understand more why the writers wrote Sam like this.