Our List of Demands for Supernatural Season Eight
In poring through episodes for our upcoming series "Looking Back at Season Seven," not to mention hanging questions from other seasons, there are a few items that just haven’t sit right with us that must end now. As in salted, burned, done, right now.
Alice’s Demands:
– No more Dean constantly clammoring over pie. We get it, he loves it. I’ll allow him to savor over it once after he returns from Purgatory (assuming there’s no pie there) but otherwise, it’s overdone.
– No more FBI. EVER.
– The words "douche," "douchebag," "dick," and "gank" are not permitted to be used again. Get a freaking thesaurus writers. Or better yet, the Urban Dictionary. There are tons of goodies in there.
– Guest stars cannot be returned to the show for the sole purpose of being killed.
– How about a happy ending for once in a while, for Christ’s sake?
– There is to be no brotherly estrangement over "a big secret."
– The Impala cannot be replaced by any other car again. EVER.
– Sam Winchester has a frakkin IQ of like 800 or something (yes, I’m guessing but it’s up there). He cannot be written as clueless and dumb. Dean is no slouch either. A GED and a give ’em Hell attitude has to go somewhere, right?
– Can the brothers flipping smile and have fun once in a while? I mean, once they’re reunited. By all means, sour looks and weepy eyes of despair galore while they’re apart.
– For the sake of fan sanity, because people won’t shut up about it, just bring back the amulet. Give it a funeral, use it in a ritual that turns it to dust, I don’t care, just give it a better ending than what it got. We already know Sam fished it out of the trash, so humor us.
– PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD OR SATAN, PLEASE, TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO SAM’S POWERS. I’ve never liked how they could conveniently go away with no explanation after five seasons of them being a significant part of the plot.
Ardeospina’s Demands:
– The Impala isn’t allowed to sit out half the season anymore. If there’s a REALLY good reason for her to be absent for one episode, fine, but only one episode per season.
– I agree with Alice about the FBI, unless Dean borrows that gray suit of Jensen’s from upfronts.
– The people they save this season thank them afterwards. Oh, and let them save people this season.
– Sam gets to laugh at Dean’s bad jokes. Seriously, let him lighten up. If you live with someone with a certain sense of humor, it doesn’t take too long before you just accept it and start joining in. It would be worth it for the look of surprise on Dean’s face, too.
– Haunted beard convention and Sam and Dean have to grow some scruff to blend in.
– Shirtless scene? Great! Don’t make them wax their chests. It’s wholly unbelievable that Sam and Dean would do that much manscaping in between hunts. Men have hair on their chests. We can all handle that.
– Plots without state-sized holes in them.
– Dean deals with Roy and Walt. He doesn’t have to kill them, just scare the piss out of them somehow.
– Adam is mentioned. They can’t have their half-brother rot in the cage without at least feeling some guilt over it.
Whew, that’s better. Any questions?
Nice list, ladies. Along with the return of the amulet, I vote for voicemail fix-it!
Yirabah’s demands!
– dito to all of the above (especially the Impala and the FBI)
– I want to know what really happened to Frank
– A storyline that will keep on the edge of my seat again.
– Eps that make me wish at their end that it would be next week already
– I want to Dean to crack more jokes and Sam to join in again
– I want to feel the brotherly love again, more humor, pop references, definatly more feeling in the whole thing again.
– Bring Bobby back as a living human being and while we are at it the Harvells too.
I am sure there is more but that is all the stuff that popped up in my head without thinking. Once I really think about the plot wholes I will remember more stuff.
Hahaa, I like this idea! Thanks girls!
First of all, ditto to everything said above.
And here’s my list.
– I’d like to see the Paisleyshirt of Peril back. I’ve always liked that shirt 🙂
– I’d like Sam to connect with a guest start. And show some tiny signs that hell is still a factor in that melon of his.
– I want Dean to have his joy back, or at least some of it. His spirit. And pick up some chicks once in a while 🙂
– More brotherly scenes together (or talking proudly about the other behind their backs).
– More Impala. Like every episode.
– More chickflick moments. So sue me, I feel deprived over the last two seasons.
– More awkward jokes combined with bitchfaces.
– More laughter. If you can’t do that, atleast give them genuine smiles. Directed at each other. Because they rock and are awesome hunters and brothers.
– No more dumbing them down. Infact, show us that they are the smart, think-fast hunters, that we know they are.
– Adam. Where the bleep is he??!! Not a word mentioned since he went to the Cage (supposedly, since we’re not sure, but that’s not really good enough now is it?!).
– How about some drunken, bonding experience about Hell/Cage. One little scene. Tiny. Or an episode. I don’t care, I’d watch a season of it 😀
– Make this season a more intimate one, please. It doesn’t have to be angels and demons and leviathans and the end of the world -big. Focus on the boys first. Monsters and guest stars come sedond and third (or not at all *shudders*) 😉
Oh, and ditto to everything said above 🙂
I like your demands Supernarttu.
I would add – Bobby back in the flesh, and the amulet returned and accepted by Dean. It’s a symbol of the connection and love between the brothers so give it back, even if it is a lightweight facsimile that won’t break Jensen’s teeth! (I want to know that Sam kept it in his duffle all this time)
I love the pie that Dean loves and don’t want that to go.
Also want more laughter and smiles between the boys towards each other. I want the closeness back, and also don’t want them dumbed down either. Show how smart they are and have them receive gratitude once in a while when they win one (which should be more often).
And please, no more “end of the world” scenarios. I want them winning the little battles instead.
Focus on the boys – indeed!
And Baby, all the time!
I could go on and on—-but I won’t! 😉
Nice demands.
– I could care less about the bloody amulet, fans need to let it go already.
– I will agree with you about Sam’s powers though, an explanation as to where they are gone would be nice.
– Never, ever take away the Impala again! Like [b]EVER[/b].
– Let Sam & Dean have some fun once in a while. I know they’ve been through Hell (literally) but it’s always so nice to see them smile.
I’m sure there are other things, but I can’t think of any right now.
What a brilliant idea! In the vein of: “Here are our demands or the rabbit gets it”.
To add some serious and some superficial ‘demands’ to the list of A2 (!):
– in addition to the banned words listed above, can we limit the number of times all characters but especially Dean can say ‘bitch’ or ‘son of a bitch’per episode and season. Over-used and unsavoury.
– I second the Roy and Walt, Adam and Frank resolutions 🙂
-I second and third the ‘saving people’ suggestion. NB In the phrase ‘Saving people, hunting things, the family business’, please note that ‘saving people’ comes first.
– Please don’t keep the guys apart for as long as half a season – a handful of episodes will suffice. Please let Dean become more like FutureDean/hardened as he has to battle his way through Purgatory to find his way back home. Fallout could happen when the brothers are back together – Sam could learn that he does not have to become RoboSam if Dean is not there.
– Richard Speight Jr., Kim Rhodes, Matt Cohen, Jeffery Dean Morgan, Madison McLaughlin, Felicia Day, James Patrick Stuart…the list goes on and on of the great supporting cast in Winchester world – please find a way to bring at least some of these characters back – especially Winchester older sister Jody Mills, younger sister Charlie and surrogate daughter/niece Chrissy – Supernatural could use the oestrogen to dilute the sea of testosterone (Note to studio/network: females do not have to be love interests)
– Please lighten up on the actors’ lipstick on both Winchesters, but especially Dean – it is distractingly out of place and jarring 😮
-Also please let Jensen’s hair grow longer – he looks good in anything, but the hair at the beginning of Season 7 really suited him 🙂
– I second, third and fourth the point about not needing the guys to wax their chests etc. Again, does not seem like something either of the Winchesters would do!
– And I agree about the smiling and chick flick moments – I realise that things are literally life and death most of the time on Supernatural, but Nihilism ‘r’ us does not have a great ring to it. Even Batman wins one once in a while!
– Haunted beards? Sheer brilliance, Ardeospina. I bow to your inspiration!
[quote]To add some serious and some superficial ‘demands’ to the list of A2 (!):
[/quote]
Magic I never thought of it but you are wonderful. We got the J2 on the show and we have A2 on the WFB.
Glad you liked it, Yirabah 😆
[quote]
To add some serious and some superficial ‘demands’ to the list of A2 (!):
[/quote]
Ah ha ha ha, I never thought of it that way. A2…I like it! Has a nice ring to it.
Excellent! Now in the manner of Show, collecting Jims, Jefferys, Jeremys, James’, Jakes etc. etc. and so forth, around their core Jared and Jensen, perhaps satellite As will begin to gather here, in amongst the rest of us…
…if you build a website, they will come 😉
I’ve never seen any lipstick on either of them. Are you sure it isn’t your TV set? 😀
And please, never take away ‘son of a bitch’ or ‘awesome’ from Dean. That is just DEAN being DEAN.
I too want Richard Speight Jr. back as Gabe or the trickster. What a waste to kill him off.
Agree with more smiling and chick flick moments.
Some blond guys (like Jensen, my brother was one) have hardly any hair on their chests and what they have is so blond it is almost invisible. Ha! I had more hair on my chest than my brother had on his. 😀
And haunted beards ought to be a hoot!
I’ve never seen the lipstick either. I thought maybe it was just my cluelessness again.
I think you might be right about Jensen. After some very difficult and extensive research. I couldn’t find a picture with any obvious chest hair. If anyone has any evidence otherwise I would be uh…. interested in seeing it. Very interested.
Jared on the other hand did have some in those recent Rio pictures where he was at the beach…. shirtless… with low hanging shorts… Sorry blanked out there. But I think for Sam it will have to be a genetic thing, because as good as Jared looked with it…. Sorry again. It’s already been established that Sam doesn’t have any.
It’s no wonder he doesn’t want to do shirtless scene-waxing – ouch.
I don’t understand the lipstick comment either. Sometimes their lips turn a little blueish but I think that’s due to the cold weather.
Put the brothers back as the leads in the show. Give them each a story. Sam has always been connected to the mytharc, and I’m okay with that. Dean, however, was connected to support characters, but each and every time the support character was killed off, Dean’s story was dropped (i.e., Hendrickson and Gordon Walker). Dean used to be a feral hunter, a nightmare-haunted, drinking, hardened hunter that connected with other drunken, hardened hunters (Rufus and Bobby, or instance) and adapted to the darker sided people (Folsom Prison Blues). No more wuss, woe-is-me-Dean.
And, please, give Sam a story that is NOT another ‘what’s wrong with Sam.’ Yeah, how about helping his brother out of Purgatory be his problem this season. Sam is now a hardened hunter, but I still want him to be Dean’s brother.
Ditto big time on the Impala.
No ditto on me for Adam. I hope to never hear of him, Lisa, Ben, Becky, Garth, Charlie or Krissy ever again. I am up for new and interesting characters in roles that show the ‘grit’ of the SPN ‘verse.
Ditto on the FBI suits.
I’m up with urban dictionary, but I still want Dean’s SOB in most every episode…and, you know, I like ‘gank’ okay.
ETA: Oh, I know, you want comedy, writers? Dean saying actual cuss words that are bleeped out with the little ghost icon (from Ghostfacers). These two hunters are, after all supposed to be touch guys, and I thought that was so cute.
I want pool rooms and really shabby motels….and the Impala.
No more support character focus. I want the support characters to actually support either Sam or Dean’s stories.
Not too much Cas saves the day.
Dean gives payback to Roy and Walt — yes, oh, yes.
Yes to the brothers not being shown as stupid, or the giant plotholes (which is where I think the Impala fell into). I want a story that has a beginning, a middle, and an end for the season and for the J2s.
Great idea, ladies. Do you think Houston will hear us?
I like your list. I will add
1) More brotherly moments. This season felt like the boys barely knew each other, let alone are ready to die for each other.
2) Sam has to rescue Dean without help from anyone EXCEPT Dean. No angels, no demon deals, no boost from Castiel from the other side. Sam promised to save Dean from Hell and failed. Give him this one.
3) Keep the Impala, no other cars.
4) Bring up their IQ’s. Make them the smart resourceful hunters they used to be.
5) I do want the amulet resolved. Bring it back. If Jensen can’t wear it make it a key ring. Better yet, make it part of what Sam needs to free Dean. Anything to give it closure.
6) Dean finds his self worth. He finally believes Sam does love him and that he is worthy of love. He needs that.
7) Wrap up Adam in some way. Jake Abel may not be able to come back, but Sam can remember that Michael released Adam’s soul as they fell.
8) Let the boys make human friends who stay alive.
I just want the impala back – for good.
Why does everyone hate it when they act like FBI agents? I did the suits. 🙂
“dig” the suits. sorry.
I love all of these suggestions…I did however notice that you missed one thing… it may sound dumb but its been bugging the eff out of me since the beginning of the season…
Sam…his hair…come on… give the boy a freakin haircut lol
Before the attacking begins (if any), I shall defend myself… I’ve loved Sam and his hair from the beginning but lately its ridiculously long… believe me, I’m all for guys with long hair but its been bugging me! Don’t get me wrong, JARED has amazing hair as always…but Sam? Ehh…not so much lol
I think the amulet story had closure. Sam’ s powers did not.
I agree with Alice and Ardeospina except I don’t mind the FBI sometimes, but stop using blatent rock alias that everyone knows.
I want Sam and Dean to be important to the story. They were no different than anyone else in season seven. You don’t have a sci fi show with leads who ate interchangeable with 7 billion others. Remember when Sam told Dean:”you aren’t Joe the plumber.”. Exactly.
I would NOT be happy if they took away Dean’s pie OR the FBI suits – by all means they can use other covers too – but I would miss the suits.
Complete agree with you LisaM. 🙂
Some of these are completely unrealistic but what harm!
1. Adam acknowledgement. Don’t care where he is (ideally not hell), just a word.
2. Some John is not a bastard acknowledgement. When Dean idolised him, Sam hated him and when Sam loved him Dean hated him. He’s been shoved aside by Bobby as the boy’s father figure so I’d love a little ‘Dad did the best he could by us and were it not for him we would not be who we are today’.
3. Ooooh, maybe a John flashback.
4. No more dumb jokes. I’m possibly the crudest person on here and even I am sick of the ‘Dick’ jokes and whatnot.
5. The powers (all of them) to be addressed. Are they there or are they not? It seems strange to me that something he was born with could be taken away. I speculated in the past that these psychic powers manifest in different ways in times of need. Could we see them again while he is on the Dean save??
6. Scary bad guys. Like dripping from every pore scary.
7. I’d like Sam and Dean to be separate for a few episodes, 3 or 4. I feel they need to break out of this ‘co-dependent’ thing. Sam needs to save Dean and he needs to do it on his own, not while working with someone else. He needs to know he [i]can[/i] do it on his own (regardless of whether or not he wants to) and do it right, without anyone to push or pull him. He’s a clever boy, a seasoned hunter and is a top notch researcher (or at least he was) so it would be good for him to put those skills to good use, and you know, not monumentally fuck it up.
8. Bobby to stay dead. Sorry, I lurve him and all but enough already. Death had become less of an inconvenience than a broken nail for the boys at this stage.
9. Some laughin’ and jokin’ and smilin’ and playin’. Lighten up lads. No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition out there. (Unless it’s a time travel episode.)
10. No more time travel episodes. It’s like they’re only being used as an excuse for the boys to play dress up at this stage.
11. Not technically part of the show but another one of those ‘Life in Motel Rooms’ type segments. I laughed til I cried. One of the best things about season 7.
12. A few loose ends tied up. I know they won’t go there but the phone message to be addressed or Jesse to anti-Christ the place up somewhere.
13. Dean to laugh. Sam can tickle him if he wants but it had better happen.
14. Sam POV. Yeah, I’m a greedy bitch but I want it. Deal with it!
15. Strangely, I’d like to see the boys go clothes shopping. I don’t know why.
16. Purgatory to be scary and relevant, not just a place to put Dean to instil a bit of angst. Might let us know where a few of the recently and not so recently departed have ended up. Oh, and some clearance as to whether in SPN verse Purgatory is a stop gap on the way to heaven or just a stop. Nothing wrong with a bit of hope, even for monsters. They can be kept in a heavenly playpen.
17. Yes to the chest hair. Seriously, Sam won’t get his hair cut but he’ll find time to wax his chest?
18. No more punches to the head please.
19. The Impala to go unleaded (ie environmentally friendly). No point saving the world again and again if they put a huge hole in the ozone layer while doing it. Or maybe they could ride bikes.
20. Enough with the secondary characters for a while. There’s enough material to work with inside of Sam and Dean to last us ten seasons.
21. Go back to the basics. They seem to have gone bigger and more spectacular in seasons past, and kudos for them to that, but along the way they seemed to have stopped practicing the simple things that made the show stand out, the things that make the show intimate. They need to go in, save a life, be happy about it and the world not end. It shouldn’t be complex.
22. Equality. Full and true equality between the brothers.
I’ll probably think of a few more later.
Thanks Alice and Ardeospina.
I’m adding already.
23. Consistency of character. Personalities in recent seasons have changed with traits being added to or taken away from the character as the storyline or episode dictates.
24. Tears from Sam. When did we last see that, end of season 3?
I’m not a crude person and I LIKE the crude jokes!
Different strokes! 😛
I’m pretty much in the same situation, I love crude jokes. My mother was an ace at them and she was the nicest person you could meet, and then when you got to know her well, she’d let one of her crude jokes rip. It would take you by surprise. So yeah, don’t stop with the crude jokes.
Alice’s Demands
I don’t agree that the pie thing was overdone. Mentioned what once this season? But I don’t care if its not mentioned either.
Likewise FBI, it just didn’t bother me the way it did you, although I do prefer variety, but I think that’s likely if Dean gets his groove back.
Dick was probably overused this season, but still made me laugh at times.
I figure Sam’s power were basically not a thing anymore because he’s not drinking demon blood that’s never bothered me. The original powers disappeared after YED was killed. And that was mentioned in BDABR.
The rest I agree with more or less.
Definitely agree with the Impala never being gone again.
The amulet does bother me, but I only want it brought up if it can be done in a realistic and story driven manner. Unlike Cas’ coat IMO. If Dean had given Cas back his coat when then were standing by the Impala- somewhat reconciling, I would have been kind of touched. But the way it was done just didn’t work for me. So if they just randomly bring the amulet up out of the blue with no context. I would not be pleased either. Although I will say, regardless of how it was done it would HAVE to be less awkward than the Cas’ coat scene. Because they actually have set up the amulet to have meaning within the show between the brothers. Whereas the coat was not.
Ardeospina agree with all of yours. Although only the Impala and Adam would likely make my demand list.
Mine is very similar to Supernarttu’s above.
1.More brotherly or chick flick moments. (I like the idea of them talking proudly about the other behind the other’s back-what can I say I’m a sap. And a drunken bonding scene over their experiences in the Cage/Hell would make my heart go all gooey).
2.Awkward jokes with bitchface or eyerolls. Or good jokes with a laugh or smirk. Just something to shows they enjoy being together. I actually thought they did pretty well with this this season it was #1 I was missing. But I definitely wouldn’t gripe about more. With “more laughter and genuine smiles” would be great.
3. Impala
For me season 7 could still be saved and made astounding if these issues where resolved in season 8.
4. Why was the a greatly reduced number of brotherly moments? I want a reason. I kept thinking there was going to be a reason and then nothing. It seemed like they were being deliberately withheld so I kept thinking they were going somewhere with it, but no. Such as with season 4, they were supposed to be becoming estranged (but why would they be this season?) or in 5 they WERE estranged (but they weren’t really supposed to be this season) or with 6 the first half was Soulless Sam and the second half was more lighthearted between the brothers which made sense. They’d just been reunited and Sam didn’t remember hell.
But this season there was no reason that I could see and lots of moments where some kind of connection was needed and we got nothing. Part of it was supposed to be I think Dean’s apathy (#5) and Sam’s hellucinations (#6) but after Sam’s fix we still didn’t get any really big moments. We got Dean saying “how ya doin'” And Sam basically saying “fine” and then saying how he was just worried about Cas. WTF. I was ok with at the time because I expected something later. NOPE. I know Dean was supposed to be withdrawn this season but he’d almost lost SAM and we got nothing. Bobby dies. Nothing. Alright we did get a couple scenes where Sam says because we want it to be and then later yells at Dean not to die. Both very short.
For me. The issue isn’t just quantity but quality. I would mind just a few all season if they’d been really meaty. But these ones this season (with the exception of HCW) just seemed abrupt. Like part of the scene or whole scenes were cut out. And it kind of pissed me off with the missed opportunities.
5. Dean’s apathy/depression – I’m really hoping that his purgatory having to fight for HIS life, not to save Sam or save the world shows him that he wants to live and that he is worth saving in his own right -not for his usefulness to the world’s survival and helps him get over his guilt. Because I want some version of smartass badass Dean back.
I also want the protective and/or caring big brother back. I swear in a few of the episodes I wasn’t sure if he even cared if Sam made it. Yeah Sam can take care of himself. But caring about Sammy is an inherent part of his personality. Where’s the guy who worried about Sam not getting laid and not sleeping more than a few hours, who was a bit of a mother hen? This Dean was letting Sam drive when he hadn’t slept in days. Sam seemed considerable more worried about Dean through season than vica versa. And I want both brothers taking care of and worrying about one another. Fuck apathy.
6. Sam-I agree that Sam is more stoic and hides his pain and that is part of the reason my heart breaks for him and the reason I love him so much. But I do need more than we’ve been getting. After Cas fixed him we got nothing until that final moment where he looked like he was about five. We had a brief moment with Cas but that was really more about Cas. And nothing with Dean. Few scenes to get inside Sam’s head both with what he felt during that time and what he feels now. How does he see his life now? Is he content now knowing he probably just hunt until he dies young, because at least he’s out of hell? Did he know he was going to die as soon as the wall came down and was just trying to hold on as long as possible? I don’t know just something. Jared is an amazing actor but they’ve been depending on him to convey EVERYTHING without much non-case related dialogue to work with a lot of the time. Again I don’t need a ton of scenes I need quality of scenes not necessarily quantity. Don’t get me wrong I want the genius badass too but they’ve manage to combine these well in the past.
7. Also I personally need some new world view (and again I’m hoping the purgatory thing handles this) other than kill all monsters. Because in the past the series and characters have fluctuated. The pendulum has swung back and forth. Both for Sam and Dean. Dean’s usually closer to the kill end and Sam’s usually lingers in the grey area. Now we have both firmly in the kill area without a lot of discussion as to why (at least for Sam). He even came down hard about Bobby without much discussion. That is NOT Sam-like. I don’t think he wanted to “kill” him and was terrified he would have to, but he also decided pretty quickly that Bobby was going to go dark. I don’t like that. They always had grey areas and questionable moral decisions and discussions about them but now they have both gone much to easily to the kill side. I’m hoping Dean see Amy and maybe his daughter in purgatory.
Sorry for the book this has been simmering since the finale.
Love your number 5. Especially about the big brother being back. I want him to care again about his Sammy and his well being like the first 3 seasons. But then, I also wish for Sam to somehow show Dean how much he really means to him and how much he does need his big brother. Yeah, I’m sappy. So what?
What I never never want to see again is Sam drinking demon blood. Hated that from the get-go and never understood why as none of the other psychic kids needed that for their powers to work. I hated it that he killed that poor nurse by drinking all her demon blood! Yuck! 😡
And like I’ve said before here, I want Bobby back in the flesh and it wouldn’t spoil “Death’s Door” for me in the least. Lazarus Rising didn’t spoil “No Rest for the Wicked” for me so why would that? Love Bobby much more than just wanting a good narrative to say goodbye to someone I love. JUST STOP KILLING EVERYBODY OFF!! There is hardly anyone left now anyway, so bring some of them back somehow! Please? :sigh:
Yeah I’m all for Sam showing some love too, although I really did think he showed more worry and concern most of the season than Dean did. And I’m sappy too. At least when its done in the right way -that Cas’ coat thing I didn’t really go for.
I’m on the fence about Bobby. On the one hand, I do think if they keep killing him and bringing him back, especially now that he’s been a ghost, could come off a little cheesy. Or not I mean they’ve pulled off some stuff I wouldn’t have thought possible but I have to admit the overall Bobby story after he came back did not come off as well as I hoped it felt rushed. I did like Of Grave Importance and I loved the burning of the flask scene, but I don’t know it didn’t come off the way I’d hoped.
On the other hand, I adore Bobby. And perhaps more importantly the idea that salted and burned ghost go to purgatory is an interesting idea. The show has been questioning where ghosts go almost the beginning of the show. And Bobby saying he see them hopefully not to soon or something like that. Could almost be foreshadowing if he’s in purgatory. And that way maybe they could not only get him out but restore him. But again I’m a little concerned because I didn’t completely love the way they handled ghost Bobby.
And that would mean the all the ghosts they’ve S and B are there and several weren’t bad. So that’s kind of depressing, I prefer to think of most of them in heaven. So yeah kind of on the fence. So as much as I love Bobby (and Jim Beaver) I don’t know if bringing him back would be good.
I agree with all your lists. I would like to expand/amend a few.
1. Limit the FBI use. How about the boys being Insurance Agents, Dr.’s, priests or pretend relatives again???
2. No chest hair doesn’t bother me. My husband had little. It was genetic and so, maybe they have the same issue. However, if they are waxing, then it should stop. Oh and cut Sam’s hair. I know guys go through the same dilemma with their hair as us women. They like to mix it up too. And let Dean grow out his hair. More facial hair would be good too especially on Dean, since I doubt there are any razors in Purgatory. A scruffy look would look very nice on Jensen. Jared pulled it off nicely this year.
3. No more episodes without Baby. She’s a Winchester too and such a part of their lives.
4. Let the guys have a normal dating life. They’re not monks!
5. Winning….let them mix it up and come out on top for once!
6. Go back and resolve those huge plot holes and loose ends that go all the way back to Season 1. (ex. Roy & Walt, Dean’s secret, Sam’s psychic powers)
7. Repair John’s image. His name has been dragged through the mud for years. He wasn’t perfect, but he was still their dad and did the best that he could under the circumstances.
8. The amulet. Find it or not…just resolve this mystery and let it go.
9. More laughter. Lighten things up. It doesn’t have to be so serious all the time. I loved the practical jokes that they use to played on each other.
I agree with all your demands. But I want to see something else (apologies if I put WAY too much time into thinking about this):
1 Sam needs to do research to get Dean out of Purgatory. He needs a library of arcane books. Where is he going to store all that?
2 It bugs me anyway where the guys keep their clothes, books and computers! where do they put them? They can still fit 2 angels (for example) in the backseat of the car at a moment’s notice AND get at the weapons instantly in the trunk. This wasn’t so much of a problem when they were based at Bobby’s.
3 Sam needs help and he can’t drag other people around motel rooms / abandoned buildings with him.
4 The Impala is damaged (I assume) and he needs to hide it until Dean can come back and fix it.
5 Sam and the Impala are both still on the most wanted list I think? Him hanging out in motels would be bad.
6 Crowley is going to be after Sam so he needs to hide out from him.
What I am saying here is I think Sam needs a Batcave 😀 (at least till Dean gets back and makes fun of him for it) He could hide out in the basement of the ruin of Bobby’s place because the safe room is probably still there. Secret entrance, hooked up for wireless, Charlie could come back and do the research for him…
What I don’t want is a replay of the end of Mystery Spot where he is all alone in the hotel rooms etc – it made me too sad!
1. More (many more) brotherly moments. Including some nice chick flick moments. And, to satisfy my Sam angst love, a few tears from Sam. Like Tim The Enchanter pointed out above, there’s been no sign of Sam tears since S3.
2. To go with my #1, a good brotherly bonding scene over their cage/Hell experiences.
3. More focus on Sam and Dean, less focus on secondary characters.
4. The end to Dean’s apathy/depression. Bring back scarily badass, confident, caring, big brother Dean. Bring back his sense of fun and the twinkle in his eye when he’s teasing Sam. Love the idea of Dean going ballistic on Walt and Roy.
5. Sam POV. Scenes that let us get inside Sam’s head. And let him still be suffering the aftereffects of his Cage trauma. And let him talk about it to someone.
6. Bring the amulet back.
7. Sam to be the one who rescues Dean from Purgatory.
8. For the brothers not to be separated for long.
9. Back to basics. No ‘end of the world’ stuff, just hunting things, the ‘family business’ stuff.
10. The powers to be addressed.
11. Completely agree with you on the FBI outfits, I’d like to see the writers bring back the creativity of earlier seasons and mix things up a bit more.
12. Let Sam and Dean be allowed to use their brains and their considerable skills. Let them be the awesome hunters they are.
13. Jokes and bitchfaces. Smiles and laughs. Affectionate slaps on the back, knee, shoulder.
14. Wishful thinking I know but I’d love to see a John Winchester flashback. Repair John’s image.
15. Grimy, shabby motel rooms and dubious diners. Pool rooms and dodgy, dangerous bars.
16. Really truly scary bad guys.
17. I guess it’s not going to happen but I’d love to see the voicemail talked about.
18. Jodie Mills and the hunter (Mackay?) from TBAI to make a return.
ETA – I love the idea of Sam having a Batcave,[b] eilf[/b]. 😀
Sam cried in Season 4 (right before the big fight btwn him and Dean) and Season 5 (FTBYAM), but we haven’t seen full on waterworks since NRFTW.
Double DITTO from me on all your points Gwen! 🙂
Agree with Gwen. I would also like to see: the amulet, Garth, Sherrif Jodie, more fun, quirky Ben Edlund/Jeremy Carver scripts, and more classic rock. For two guys who love rock music, they’ve never been shown at a concert or worked to “save” a band or anything like that-Chuck mentioned them going to shows, but we’ve never seen it.
BTW, I love the pie references and the SOBs. It’s one of the few things that seems to make Dean happy. Lastly, I do want them to give the boys their brains/smarts back; Dean’s a prolific hunter and Sam is a Stanford graduate. they do seemed to have been “dumbed down” over the last few seasons.
-Alice, your comment about ‘we all know Sam fished the amulet out of the trash’ made me laugh out loud. Yeah, we are all waiting for the big resolution on that one and I hope it has something to do with the door to Purgatory.
-Make Purgatory deep, layered and interesting with it’s own lore. Don’t waste it on a one-off and pop Dean out.
-I agree, it better be Sam that figures out how to spring Dean this time.
-And when Dean does get back, don’t ever seperate him from his car again.
-Osric Chau is actually a kick-ass Martial Arts fighter. Kevin Tran should surprise us.
-There are no barbers or waxers in Pergatory so let them go scruffy. They can shave when they get back together.
-I don’t mind the overused FBI identities but only because I’m so grateful for the suits. The fact that the fandom practically had a meltdown when the boys showed up in airport jumpsuits in 7 – 20 shows that it’s been too long since they tried a different disguise.
There to many demands to go through, but I agree with some and not with others. A few demands I feel I should add are:
-After the boys reunite we will probably need a lighthearted episode so bring back the Ghostfacers they are always good for a laugh.
-I think it is time to meet God or Chuck if he really is God.
Supernatural is awesome like it is
But wishes some of the guest stars to [b]Come back[/b]
And would like dean to be happy, to enjoy life ,and I love dean and his pie
The rest is AWESOME
Alice, Ardeospina great lists!
Three things I would add:
1) Brotherly moments with actual emotion rather than the half hearted moments we’ve seen this season
2) I’d dearly love to know whether Dean and Sam know that it was Cas who let Sam out of the panic room in WTLB. I don’t mean that there has to be a big scene about it, I’d just like to know if they’re aware of it.
3) Quoting Tim the Enchanter [quote]14. Sam POV. Yeah, I’m a greedy bitch but I want it. Deal with it![/quote] I’m greedy too! 😆
Yes, yes, I’d like to see a little wrapping up of loose ends. I’d like Cas to come clean about that too.
And along with that, I’d like Sam to find out that Dean did not leave him that horrible cell phone message at the end of Season 4, Lucifer Rising.
I’d like to see neither one leave the other in crisis, i.e.: detoxing alone in the panic room, or being left alone in a hotel the first night back from HELL????
I’d like to know what happened to the amulet…I’m sentimental.
More brotherly moments, chick-flicky and teary…yes!
Pie is ok with me.
SOB is ok with me. Get rid of “dick” and “bitch” for every male and female foe. Douche also…I hate that word.
Please trim Sam’s hair; doesn’t have to be short, but even if he wore it like Jared, without being slicked down, that’d be ok.
Suits are ok sometimes. New ID’s would be nice. Throw in “Teddy bear doctors” and the like once in a while.
Scary adversaries would be a welcome treat.
I don’t see how Sam can get Dean out of Purgatory unassisted, but it should be mostly him. Then some good brotherly bonding when Dean gets back.
No more Pintos
Would be nice to hear a reprise of “bitch” and “jerk” again, just for old times sake!
OK, I’m done for now.
Great thing to do guys! awesome! on with you A2(!) on everything , but i’m not very interested in amulet anyways…
1.Please!!! PLEASE!!! LET IMPALA be the ONLY car the boys (aka guys) use! stop using those garbage cars!!!
2.bring back the brotherly moments , i’m all for it but , ppl , if all you want is for sam and dean to laugh and having fun and doing pranks on each other , then , it is not going to be Supernatural anymore! its my opinion of course! i want them to be brothers again , but have their own time of happiness and sadness and even fun moments together , all in good place and all in time . they are hunters after all!!!
3.some flash backs of Mary and John! i think their characters need more attention.
4.i do want sam to be the one to rescue dean from purgatory and its a good thing to be apart for some episodes because in that case they will care about each other more. both of them. and i want sam to get some help from some people , but not the same old people , i am done with jody mills (hate that character) or garth or anybody we already knew ! bring fresh faces!
5. i want fun episodes too , but too much is going to be too much! don’t do it!!!
6. and plus to no more dick jokes and everything , PLEASE NO MORE DESTIEL REFERENCES!!! I HATE IT! Like “he was your boyfriend ….or he is in love with you” crap!! that is just lame!!!
and after all i hope the story line goes properly for everyone on the show.
Oooooo … you all!!! Great lists 😀 😀 😀
I think the reason why Sam and Dean look dumb this season because we know a lot about the Leviathan than Demons.
And I say it again [i][b]Dramatic Irony don’t agree with Supernatural[/b][/i]. ‘Cause it makes the lead guys look stupid for not knowing the things that the fans know it first.
Azazel only appears no more than a couple of episodes but he is a badass enemy. The almost never give personality to demons, except Ruby. But We see Leviathan a lot more than we see demons in a season.
Amulet and Impala is like Sam and Dean. Please bring them back.
Hello Cruel World is my fav just because of the brotherly moments in it. So, I want more episodes like that in S8, please.
MASSIVE MASSIVE HUG when the brothers are reunited pleaseeeeeeeeeeee
Oh yeah, I want the huge man hug when they reunite too!
In other words you want to break all that Sera built and fore godsake im sick of hearing that you want the brothers topless Sera already put to much [EDITED] talk in it you need to remember guys still watch this. MORE GIRLS THIS SEASON.
ADMIN EDIT: Hi, luciano. I edited your comment slightly because of a slight slur, so please keep it friendly. -Ardeospina
I am all about equal opportunity but I don’t know if topless girls on SPN is the way to go. Dean would be so busy trying [i]not[/i] to look that he wouldn’t be able to do any hunting and Sam would just run away…..
I just a lighthearted joke. I don’t think any of us expect the guys to be whipping off there shirts all the time (although I probably wouldn’t complain either -lol).
Topless girls are a thought. I mean that could be one way of getting Dean out of his funk. And I don’t know Tim, it has been awhile for Sam-he might take what he can get at this point.
Great lists!
I want to add my support to the ones about Sam’s IQ, addressing Sam’s powers, Sam getting to talk to a guest, taking a break from the FBI cover, and Sam laughing at Dean’s jokes (the Sam bitchfaces are about as overdone as the pie references).
If I can make some amendments, I would say that Dean can have a huge piece of pie when he gets back from Purgatory, but he’s not allowed within 20 feet of a child all season. That also has been overdone.
I want Sam not not only talk to a guest star, I want him to have his own reoccurring character/friend, preferably the female variety.
Dean can have the Purgatory monsters and mytharc, but Sam gets all of the emotional, character-development storylines this season. And because Dean had the personal connection, or at least the kill, with the last three major villains (Eve, Cas, and Dick), Sam has the personal connection with whatever the big villain is in season 8.
EDIT: OMG, I can’t believe I forgot this one! Something needs to be done with Sam’s hair and sideburns. Both need to be trimmed [i]way[/i] back, and they need to ease off on the hair product.
1) John Winchester, warts and all, flawed and heroic. It would be great to have him back now the boys are men, just to see how things are. Jensen and JDM had fantastic chemistry (as Jensen seems to have with everyone) and there’s more to be done there. The Winchester family past got mucked about with the failed return of Grandpa. I want it healed somehow. Plus: Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Maybe he could be part of Purgatory somehow.
2) Repair Cas. Redeem, repair, reinstate. He doesn’t have to be there all of the time. He’s a strong flavour so a little goes a long way. It was one of the profoundest moments in [i]Supernatural[/i] history when his character arrived and the show switched (momentarily) from its focus on understanding in practical terms the nature of evil to imagining the possibility of good. It didn’t last because God turned out to be truly hidden/absent/uncaring, and the angels were a mob. But personally I would love to return to that ground. Not angels and demons and all that political palaver. Had enough of political (and corporate) palaver. Just for them to glimpse and start to credit a potential for good.
3) Sam. I know the actor says he likes to do ‘dark’ but personally (don’t jump on me please) I don’t think he’s so good at it. He’s much better when he’s gentler. I loved early Sam — ordinary, angry, earnest, young, sometimes sulky, sometimes happy, [i]ordinary[/i] Sam. He can keep his specialness without succumbing to it utterly. A more interesting, better dynamic for the actor???
4) Dean. Give him summat!! The character deserves more respect than the show lately has been wiling to give him. Like many, I’d love to see the return of joy and also a sense of purpose for Dean. Unlike Sam, Dean is wholly natural — no mystic powers, no special purpose that he is prepared to carry through — i love his rooted and self-willed way through life, and I hope this continues. But that doesn’t mean that he is in plot terms simply adjunct to Sam, the supernatural brother (though Sam is of course, rightly, a big part of his life). I would like his story to add up to something. He’s been to heaven, hell, purgatory, earth, the past, the future… and dream-land. An ordinary mortal where angels fear to tread. In experiential terms, this should add up to something, assuming that experience is useful.
4) God. Where the hell did he go? Is this too big or too dangerous a subject for the show? Deus absconditus, I know, but why did God have to be so vacuous?
5) Impala. Vroooooom. But yes, unleaded.
[quote]
3) Sam. I know the actor says he likes to do ‘dark’ but personally (don’t jump on me please) I don’t think he’s so good at it. He’s much better when he’s gentler. I loved early Sam — ordinary, angry, earnest, young, sometimes sulky, sometimes happy, [i]ordinary[/i] Sam. He can keep his specialness without succumbing to it utterly. A more interesting, better dynamic for the actor???
[/quote]
I think Jared does a great sympathetic Sam, but I also like (and think I prefer) the more assertive edge he had throughout most of season 4. I’m not talking about the strung-out, junkie who fought with Dean at the end of the season, but more of the way he was mid-season:
Dean: Well, thanks for the thumbnail — real vivid. You want to fill in a little detail?
Sam: Sure, Dean, let’s trade stories. You first. How was Hell? Don’t spare the details.
While I think Jared did a great job delivering the junkie part, it’s not a look I ever want to see on him again. I also thought he did a great Meg back in season 2.
What I didn’t like was RoboSam (I think Jared delivered, and again, I like the assertiveness, but the essence of Sam was missing, so I could never get behind it). I also didn’t like the rage. One of the biggest problems with the rage was that Sam is usually so even-keeled that when flew into a rage it seemed out of character. But I think that might have been as much a writing issue as a delivery issue. He spent almost all of season 2 as Yoda, so when he was consumed with rage in the finale, it didn’t feel like the same character. We should have seen hints of a temper throughout the season.
[quote]1) 3) Sam. I know the actor says he likes to do ‘dark’ but personally (don’t jump on me please) I don’t think he’s so good at it. He’s much better when he’s gentler. I loved early Sam — ordinary, angry, earnest, young, sometimes sulky, sometimes happy, [i]ordinary[/i] Sam. He can keep his specialness without succumbing to it utterly. A more interesting, better dynamic for the actor???
.[/quote]
I respect your opinion, but dark Sam (for e. x. Soulless) was SO GOOD that gave Jared his TCA nomination for best sci-fi actor in 2011. Demon Sam, Demon blood adicct Sam, Samifer, were amazingly played. Kripke loves dark!Sam. It’s a shame you can’t appreciate it.
My list:
1.- Brotherly love IN SCREEN..
2.-Sam POV, and friends.
3.- Dean’s dark side..(someone get Jensen out of his comfort zone, he’s an awesome actor.) by the way, Dean and his “coat scene” was his funeral. BRING BADASS DEAN BACK.
4.- No more dick jokes.PLEASE.
5.- No more Castiel fixing everything.
6.- John Winchester (nuff said)
7.- Brotherly love IN SCREEN (2)
I guess my biggest wish is to give Sam a story that isnt solved by angels with magic fingers and a hand rub.
I want to see that his pit experience as transcended his hallucinations and have left a genuine mark on him.
2) The Amulet is not something that is vital for me nor the Impala but if they need a car better her than anything.
3) And total agreement for more brotherly moments and getting back to them and their relationship. 🙂
What about the music, guys? Where is the excellent classic rock? I miss that so much.
Yes yes yes! I forgot about the rock. If only we could get all that classic rock back like we had at the beginning it would be entirely sonofabitch AWESOME! 😛
Great lists. I agree with so many.
Now, if the demon-possessed sideburns on Sam would just go away, I’d be a happy person. How can they cover up that face?
Really liking all the ideas, especially about payback on Walt and Roy.
I think I found my soulmate 😛 Ginger, my dear, we are on the same wavelength. ‘No ditto on me for Adam. I hope to never hear of him, Lisa, Ben, Becky, Garth, Charlie or Krissy ever again’ . Lisa and Ben are over and done with. Becky, and Garth should never get more time in an episode than Sam and Dean combined. Krissy should be in school and not on my tv screen. I did not find Charlie charming, I wanted Dick to eat her or kill her. As for the ‘lost brother’, he was only there to show that John still had (unprotected) sex after Mary and then he was a poor replacement for Dean. Did anyone really think that when Death told Dean to pick one, that Dean would actually pick Adam???? Get over Adam, he is in the cage, end of story.
I agree with Gwen, and Yhello, by episode five Sam’s powers have returned and he has found a way to do what he couldn’t do in season three, RESCUE DEAN. Then we get a reunion hug that is better than the one from ‘Like a Virgin’ and Sam FINALLY digs the amulet out from the bottom of his duffel (where the Soulless Idiot shoved it) and presents it to his brother, who puts it on after giving Sam a big hug. Then Dean goes outside and tells Sam he did a good job fixing up the Impala and they go get pie. (Sorry Alice, Dean needs pie, just like he needs his Sammy).
But I do agree that maybe for the season 8 finale (hello season 9 😀 ) we have Dean and Sam sitting on the hood of the Impala, just enjoying a beer and each other’s company and the stars? Because in episode 22, they took care of the bad guys and now they have time to chill.
Ardeospina, I agree completely, I am tired of reading fanfics (although they are damn good) about what happened to Roy and Walt. I want Jeremy Carver to tell us how Dean killed (I mean ….nah I mean killed) those two idiots.
I agree with most of these demands but would like to add a couple:
1. Restore the boys’ faith. They seem like they have lost hope and that leads to depressed Winchesters (and at least one disappointed fan). That doesn’t mean I want to see more Castiel. The character is o.k. in small doses but I would rather see the story line center on human/family issues because it’s easier to connect and feel for the characters.
I like the idea of revisiting Walt and Roy. There’s good potential there which leads to my biggest demand…
2. Don’t squander potential! If you have a good idea for a story line, stick with it, flesh it out, and don’t jump on to some lame side bar story. Invest in the story so we, the viewers, can invest.
Thanks. This was fun.
Love both of your demands! I’m so frustrated with the potential storylines that just seem to peter out.
I’m conflicted about the amulet. Dean THREW IT AWAY (but kept the trenchcoat like a blankie). I’d love it to be the key (literally) to getting Dean out of the purgatory. And we learn Sam buried it (along with Johns dog tags) at the base of Mary’s grave.
Sam to develop a good friend whose recurring. And he/she must be HUMAN and a hunter.
For both boys to return to s2 levels of intellegence. Complete with their code words and back up plans
Show to be scary again.
For the Deangirls…Dean needing to go undercover as a model. For the samgirls…Sam gets to tease him….Sam needs to laugh cause HE’s happy
And of course the boys comfortable with each other…I want to see them being happy to be in each others company.
My List of Demands….
Would actually echo much of what’s been written.
But to be specific, I want pie, the amulet, son of a bitch, puppy dog eyes, the occassional FBI suit, but I’d also like a tux, work coveralls, athletic gear, T-shirts!!!!, swim trunks and perhaps a drag outfit. (I just had a brilliant flash of Jensen & Jared remaking Some Like It Hot.. Perhaps Danneel could channel a Marilyn character.. I really don’t know where that idea came from!)
I want more laughter & crinkly eyes and big goofy grins. i want some joking and ease and camaraderie. But I also want more sobs from Sam and the One Perfect ManTear from Dean.
I want strong emotional arcs for both brothers. Frankly I’m not sure what’s going on in either brother’s head. (I’m kind of glad Lucifer is out of Sam’s grapefruit. He was getting on my nerves, so I can only imagine what it was like for Sam!) I want each brother to see & appreciate the strengths and qualities of the other.
I would like both brothers to be tied to the mytharc somehow. And I want some longstanding questions answered – what happened to Sam’s powers? what’s the real reason Dean could kill the Whore of Babylon and that his eyes turned silver when he killed Zachariah? I would really, really like to see Jensen as Michael. I feel a little cheated we never got that.
I’d like the Winchesters to cross paths with Walt & Roy again. Nasty! And I’d like to see Sheriff Mills, Garth & Charlie again. But I also wish we could see Ellen, Rufus, Ash. Bobby and the Trickster/Gabriel again too. I would like some supporting characters who don’t die.
I want Castiel, but not too much and not as the instant fix. I like my brothers smart and stirred to action, not always shaken by the tragedy of events around them. (Stretching for a fun pun there!) I really want to see both boys getting a chance to use all their intelligence, skills and experience.
I would like to see a short separation and an awesome reunion hug. I really want to see Purgatory too, but I’m starting to doubt that’s what will happen.
I want Dean to get his confidence and his bad-ass spark/snark back. But I also want to see the way he used to extend his Big Brother Protector mode to every civilian they met. I want Sam to get his confidence back, to be on solid (mental? emotional?) ground and not to be sucker-punched by the universe again.
I really want them both to have some redemption, some praise and some hope. Please some hope. Something that explains why they keep going day after day after day.
…. And also some sex. Because I really like those hairless chests. I must spend too much time around relatively hairless men because I never ever considered the fact they’d have to wax for those scenes. Magnum never did!
Oh yes, and the Impala should be the centre of an episode. She sort of was in Swan Song, but I mean a truly starring role. Perhaps an episode from her perspective?
And I would love to see an episode where both brothers are hurt and in peril and have only the other to rely on. It doesn’t even have to be a supernatural threat. It could be a natural disaster (part of my city just flooded. We got 100mm of rain in one storm!) I just like the boys bloody and vulnerable once in awhile. Hospital scenes are good too.
Okay. Now that I’ve repeated everyone… Fingers crossed some of our demands are met!
Pragmatic Dreamer 🙂
For season 8, I want to continue to be a carefree, fun-loving fan who really enjoys the show without having a whole list of demands, nitpicks and complaints that only get in the way of my enjoyment.
Great lists by all! I agree with so many, esp. the amulet. I’d add a few of my own.
1. The Antichrist kid. I want to know what happened to him.
2. I want an emotional monologue, like AHBL. I have an angst thing.
3. Alpha Vampire. I love him and want to have his voice babies.
4. Sam sex.
5. An episode that explores Dean hunting during Sam’s Stanford days (I have hopes that Dean will run into a monster he killed in Purgatory that he killed before Sam returned).
6. Sheriff McHotty, aka Jody Mills. In fact, she can have the sex with Sam.
7. Another “humans are crazy” episode like The Benders or Family Remains (which I liked, by the way.)
8. No meta.
Did I mention Sam and sex?
[i]Alpha Vampire. I love him and want to have his voice babies.[/i] Oh, I love that! voice babies! I would just like for him to tape my voice message on my phone. I would be calling myself all the time just to hear him talk, what a voice. He’s the James Earl Jones of the vampire world.
• A good Purgtory arc for Dean and Cas, in which they spend time together and rebuilding the profound bond.
• Castiel! Obviously! Season 7 did little for me except reinforce how tedious the show is when it’s just Sam and Dean and their endless angst. And J2 seemed bored to tears and going through the motions.
• Misha Collins back as a regular for season 8.
• Absolutely nothing wrong with Sam.
The “What’s wrong with Sam” thing has gone on for long enough. Let him grow up already, let Dean stop taking care of him for real.
My main take-away from season 7 is that I cannot deal with Castiel’s absence. I used to be a fan of his character, but not a huge, huge fan. But taking Cas away resulted in me caring about nothing else except for when he was going to come back, what would to happen to him when he did, and whether or not he would survive into season 8. He was my second favourite character before season 7. Now he’s my #1 favourite, and #2, and #3.
More Classic Rock!!!! Way back in the day we had music in every episode, which I loved, and now we’re lucky to get one here and there.
I really think the solution to all of this is Eric Kripke!!! Bring back the master!
WHERE ARE SAM’S POWERS!!! freaking sickkk
[quote]WHERE ARE SAM’S POWERS!!! freaking sickkk[/quote]
We wont see Sam’s powers .They were a plot device that were there when the sl required them.I would like to see something has I think he was born with them but I cannot see them going there at this point.
I think maybe they disappeared when he came back from hell. Like in season 4 Monster Movie (if I’m right), Dean sort of says he was born a new man when he was brought back from hell. Supposedly no scars or anything. Maybe the same thing happened to Sam and they’re gone?
Awesome Lists!
1) IMPALA. No more coral colored cars. God.
2) Purgatory with its own lore and a proper storyline for Sam while Dean is in there. Don’t make him disappear!!!
3) Bring back the Ghostfacers, they really are a lot of fun.
4) Adam. Resolve that storyline!
5) Where are John and Mary Winchester if they aren’t in heaven? I wanna know!
6) Awesome music.
7) Absolutely nothing wrong with Sam- except angst over his brother. Nothing else! Not even a bad case of common cold!
8) Creepy MOTW.
9) I like the idea of the brothers taking on Roy and Walt.
Ardeospina’s haunted beard idea is priceless 😀
No more Dean bitching about Sam to strangers. Its rude and disrespectful. and just stop whining. You dont want to hunt. Stop. Go back to the ‘burbs.
Sam has his own car. He’s so gonna need his own car. And no Castiel butt smashing it. he feels a need to crush a car with his butt go find the Impala.
sam to have a return of his Faith. IN God…not angels or pixies. God. let him rediscover his faith.
“No more Dean bitching about Sam to strangers. Its rude and disrespectful. and just stop whining. You dont want to hunt. Stop. Go back to the ‘burbs. ”
LMAO
I couldn’t agree more
[quote]No more Dean bitching about Sam to strangers. Its rude and disrespectful. and just stop whining. You dont want to hunt. Stop. Go back to the ‘burbs.
Sam has his own car. He’s so gonna need his own car. And no Castiel butt smashing it. he feels a need to crush a car with his butt go find the Impala.
sam to have a return of his Faith. IN God…not angels or pixies. [b]God[/b]. let him rediscover his faith.[/quote]
I’m all in with that, if we can trust him not to strangle God and drink his blood… after bitching to him about Dean. 😮
The difficulty is that Sam, post-season two (as far back as that, regrettably), has been written as so essentially unsympathetic and crocked it’s hard to see him making his way back to an honourable, let alone a faithful, position. This is an opinion, of course.
But all strength to the new show runner and his team. If they can do it, i’d be delighted. For one, Padalecki did his best work, IMO, with the more sympathetic Sam.
I always found Sam very sympathetic. More so than Dean much of the time…
Sam doesnt ‘bitch’ about anybody or anything really let alone Dean so you can be rest assured if Sam met anybody Dean will be safe.
As for sympathy I dont see where in season 3 or 5 and most of season 6 he was unsympathetic after all he was dealing with his brothers deal in season 3. I thought Sam handled it all and the prospect of his brother going to hell remarkably well under the circumstances.
The only time anybody can claim Sam didnt act with sympathy at times was season 4 outside of that and Souless Sam wouldnt know how to act that way there is no reason for you or anybody else to find problems. Besides both boys can act unsympathetic it isnt just a Sam thing.
As for a honourable position Dean is his brother not his sovereign and Sam being crocked was not something delibrately done on his part. I do not want a season 8 sl for him where he has to prove and continue to make up for or there is mistrust when that is a unnnecessary sl and has no place for me.
I want Sam to have a story that is about him done for him and not written for everybody else and his wife.
Sam was not bitching to Chuck about Dean. It’s not like Sam was complaining about Dean or calling him a pathetic loser or something. Sam was justifying his reasons for drinking DB, IIRC. I haven’t seen that episode in awhile but I don’t recall Sam saying anything mean about Dean or being a jerk about it. I honestly can’t recall Sam ever “bitching” about Dean to anyone.
In any event, if you haven’t liked Sam since Season 2 then there’s not much more to say. Maybe to you and other Sam-haters, he’s no longer sympathetic but I disagree. Sam is fine with me.
ETA: I saw your example of Sam’s first meeting with Meg, and you’re right he did bitch about Dean and how Dean treats him. So what? Why is that a problem? Sam was upset with Dean. You act as if Dean never bitches about Sam. That’s what normal people do from time to time. And it’s not like Sam ever expected to see Meg again. A complete stranger is better than a family friend, IMO.
I have only one request for season 8: Give these two more-than-experienced hunters an EDGE. As much as I love the tete-a-tetes while sitting on the hood of the Impala, I would dearly love to see these two guys show just how savvy they are. They need to act–not talk–like the world-weary, haunted, die for each other, mysterious, sexy, kick-em-in-the-ass-and-drive-off-in-a-hot-car hunters they are! If I could get even a little of that, I’d be happy. 🙂
I was hoping for a few more episodes by Ben Edlund, but I’ve just read that he’s leaving the show. I was very surprised at that news (and am actually hoping that it was a mis-quote).
WHAT? NOOO!
A later update cleared up the confusion. Ben Edlund is staying, but the writing team of Ben Blacker and Ben Acker is leaving (too many Ben’s to keep straight, I guess!).
[quote]I was hoping for a few more episodes by Ben Edlund, but I’ve just read that he’s leaving the show. I was very surprised at that news (and am actually hoping that it was a mis-quote).[/quote]
[quote]Sam doesnt ‘bitch’ about anybody or anything really let alone Dean so you can be rest assured if Sam met anybody Dean will be safe.
As for sympathy I dont see where in season 3 or 5 and most of season 6 he was unsympathetic after all he was dealing with his brothers deal in season 3. I thought Sam handled it all and the prospect of his brother going to hell remarkably well under the circumstances.
The only time anybody can claim Sam didnt act with sympathy at times was season 4 outside of that and Souless Sam wouldnt know how to act that way there is no reason for you or anybody else to find problems. Besides both boys can act unsympathetic it isnt just a Sam thing.
As for a honourable position Dean is his brother not his sovereign and Sam being crocked was not something delibrately done on his part. I do not want a season 8 sl for him where he has to prove and continue to make up for or there is mistrust when that is a unnnecessary sl and has no place for me.
I want Sam to have a story that is about him done for him and not written for everybody else and his wife.[/quote]
Ah, it must be that I’m rewatching early seasons where he does bitch to Meg, and then later we know they both bitch to Bobby.
Watching the early Sam though is what makes me regret what he became. The character was ordinary in good ways, a decent, slightly huffy, sweet guy. His only failing was the common leftover teenage one of being self-centred (not the college thing: everyone deserves full and education, IMO) but he had a good heart.
Then he becomes (to give a conservative overview): deceitful, driven by evil thoughts, untrustworthy, cruel to others and especially those close to him. It makes him hard to like, for me, and maybe most of all because the motivation is always spun out to be external to his basic character. I guess this is supposed to ‘save’ him by saying that emo darkness is not his fault, but, No, not for me. I’d rather a person owned her or his own faults. John Winchester, bad father, stand up guy, full of honour. Rufus, drunk, grudge-bearing, does the job. Dean, going the same way… I like these guys who bear their own load very much.
I really regret what the show did to the character of Sam. ‘Under the influence’ is not an adequate excuse for drunk drivers, nor [i]should[/i] it give Sam a free pass. Eg the soulless Sam smirk of pleasure when Dean is blooded by the bubble perm vampire. Lack of moral awareness is one impediment. Taking pleasure in the threat of his brother’s ruin comes from a different source. I dunno. It puzzles me because we read that Kripke and then Gamble identified most with Sam, but they haven’t treated him well. Is there a way back for him for watchers like me? I’m really interested to see what the new writing team can do.
AggieD, I understand your point of view, but I’m not really getting where Sam was “driven by evil thoughts” and “cruel to others”. Yes, he’s made some bad decisions, but most of those decisions were based on good intentions, not bad ones.
Are you perhaps referring to his time being soulless? You did mention that, but I think he [i]does[/i] get a pass for being soulless, considering it wasn’t a choice he made. He didn’t choose to lose his soul, and without it he had absolutely no moral standard from which to base his choices, it was pure logic. Driving under the influence, for example, is a choice you make. I don’t think RoboSam’s choice was necessarily about his brother’s ruin, or taking pleasure in it, so much as it was a strategic decision to get them into the vamps’ nest. It is a difficult one, yes, but I don’t think anyone in RoboSam’s position would have done it a whole lot differently, frankly.
[quote]AggieD, I understand your point of view, but I’m not really getting where Sam was “driven by evil thoughts” and “cruel to others”. Yes, he’s made some bad decisions, but most of those decisions were based on good intentions, not bad ones.
Are you perhaps referring to his time being soulless? You did mention that, but I think he [i]does[/i] get a pass for being soulless, considering it wasn’t a choice he made. He didn’t choose to lose his soul, and without it he had absolutely no moral standard from which to base his choices, it was pure logic. Driving under the influence, for example, is a choice you make. I don’t think RoboSam’s choice was necessarily about his brother’s ruin, or taking pleasure in it, so much as it was a strategic decision to get them into the vamps’ nest. It is a difficult one, yes, but I don’t think anyone in RoboSam’s position would have done it a whole lot differently, frankly.[/quote]
Thanks for your careful answer, PaintedWolf. I feel like I’m treading on eggshells a bit since Sam is of course loved, and a lot of fans went with him through all those changes. Though I seem to be saying harsh things about him, it’s more of a lament that he was changed so much and so often.
My difficulty with him is at two levels.
The first is to do with ‘not his fault’. There is a big gap between what he does and what his actions come out of. I’d rather it [i]were[/i] his fault, because that way you’d have something [i]felt[/i] at the heart of these deeds, which include the bleeding of demons, trying to kill Bobby etc. Carver Edlund / Chuck was right about that stuff making him unsympathetic. So the second problem is, I confess, to do with those deeds, whether in Ruby years or in Soulless days. I’d rather he were at fault but for lesser crimes!
From my point of view, the smile of pleasure when Dean was ‘turned’ by bubble perm vampire was repellent but welcome, because it showed something of the man left behind. Moral sense is separate from pleasure centres. Terrifying as it was, that smile was Sam getting a buzz. Ditto his pleading not to get his soul back. All of that was amazing work from Padalecki, I thought, because desperate and honest, and imaginable.
To look at ‘not his fault’. He’s not possessed through the demon blood episode. He’s part-way conned, part-way seduced, part-way drugged, part-way desperate for answers and solutions. He is, as Cas will be too, self-isolated, trusting the wrong people for advice, in an attempt to fix things. But again as with Cas, because the story needs secrets, you don’t really get to see that heady mixture of complex human (angelic?) stuff, the pride, love, weakness, sacrifice and courage. It doesn’t get across. And you really do need to see that stuff.
It’s the mechanics of it. Someone comes unhinged, there’s usually some dogged weak point that allows the unhinging to happen.
But just when you need to see and hear, we get thrown to a distance. By the writing. By the direction. By the acting. The way Sam’s acted, it seems to me, during most of season 4 and beyond, changes from the more nuanced early performance that gave glimpses of the inside processes (seasons 1&2), to an outward and extreme demonstration of rage breaking out. It’s as if the character’s insides disappear to be replaced by the prolonged moment where the Hulk flips. I miss Sam all the time that he’s on screen in Ruby days. You do get glimpses of him, the real Sam, through Dean’s eyes, his fears, anguish etc. In some ways, that’s why I’m glad it takes Dean a time to forgive. Fills in retrospectively some of the human heft we’ve missed.
On reflection, ignore me. I think perhaps I’m doing the same thing, at long range, being harsh on him in hope that we get back the grown-up version of the man younger Sam might have become.
I don’t think he gets a pass for what he did while he was on demon blood. But the only thing he did that was cruel (even while on DB) was say a mean things to Dean (while also under a siren spell) and try to choke Dean. They were in a fight that got out of hand and the demon blood made him take it much further than Sam normally would have. He did not actually try to kill him because otherwise Dean would probably be dead (he was stronger because of the DB). Sam is almost never cruel. The same can’t be said of Dean who has said and done incredibly hurtful things to Sam without any outside influence.
Don’t get me wrong I LOVE DEAN-ADORE DEAN but he’s been an Ass with a capitol A many times over the years. Sometimes there was some justification sometimes not, but he’s by no means perfect -anymore than Sam is.
Season 4 Sam was suppose to be different because of the DB, not an excuse simply a fact. But he still wasn’t evil. Even at his worst he was still trying to do the right thing. Yeah he failed miserably, but he owned up to it. And in season 5 he was full on puppy dogged eyed Sammy again. He just had the weight of his guilt crushing him and he’d pretty much lost Dean. So his behavior reflected that. And in the end he threw himself into a cage with Lucifer to be tortured for all eternity, as far as he knew. And his only last request was that Dean go live a apple pie life. How many last requests did Dean get?
Now I think Sam does get a pass for being soulless. In fact I would make the contention that that wasn’t Sam at all. How could it be he was still being tortured in the cage. If a ghoul had come and eaten Dean’s remain when he went to hell, it would have all Dean’s thought and memories and look like Dean. But it wouldn’t be Dean. Anymore more than a Leviathan or shapeshifter would. Dean’s body was still on earth while his soul was being tortured in hell. (and torturing and if you can’t forgive Sam for being soulless than how can you forgive Dean for torturing?) How is this any different than soulless Sam.?
[quote]I don’t think he gets a pass for what he did while he was on demon blood. But the only thing he did that was cruel (even while on DB) was say a mean things to Dean (while also under a siren spell) and try to choke Dean. They were in a fight that got out of hand and the demon blood made him take it much further than Sam normally would have. He did not actually try to kill him because otherwise Dean would probably be dead (he was stronger because of the DB). Sam is almost never cruel. The same can’t be said of Dean who has said and done incredibly hurtful things to Sam without any outside influence.
Don’t get me wrong I LOVE DEAN-ADORE DEAN but he’s been an Ass with a capitol A many times over the years. Sometimes there was some justification sometimes not, but he’s by no means perfect -anymore than Sam is.
Season 4 Sam was suppose to be different because of the DB, not an excuse simply a fact. But he still wasn’t evil. Even at his worst he was still trying to do the right thing. Yeah he failed miserably, but he owned up to it. And in season 5 he was full on puppy dogged eyed Sammy again. He just had the weight of his guilt crushing him and he’d pretty much lost Dean. So his behavior reflected that. And in the end he threw himself into a cage with Lucifer to be tortured for all eternity, as far as he knew. And his only last request was that Dean go live a apple pie life. How many last requests did Dean get?
Now I think Sam does get a pass for being soulless. In fact I would make the contention that that wasn’t Sam at all. How could it be he was still being tortured in the cage. If a ghoul had come and eaten Dean’s remain when he went to hell, it would have all Dean’s thought and memories and look like Dean. But it wouldn’t be Dean. Anymore more than a Leviathan or shapeshifter would. Dean’s body was still on earth while his soul was being tortured in hell. (and torturing and if you can’t forgive Sam for being soulless than how can you forgive Dean for torturing?) How is this any different than soulless Sam.?[/quote]
I agree altogether that Dean has been an ass. I love the way you talk about him, Kelly. I like my characters to be flawed. Makes them real. He’s an unsifted mess of conflicting feelings and instincts, and I love that in him. This is close to my point. What Dean gives out, [b]is[/b] Dean. No external influence. Cas is my second-favourite character, joint-second with John W. I love him ridiculously. But it doesn’t bother me in the least little bit that Dean shouted at him — a nominally unstable mental patient –‘No one cares if you’re broken… Clean up your mess’. Good. It’s like ‘Be real. Be yourself.’ There is an energy in anger when allied to a proper purpose that is invigorating. Of course, the attack doesn’t work, but no matter. End result, you know what Dean wants, how much he’s hurting, and how great a gap there is between Sorry Cas and the one he had been before (the ‘You… should respect me more’ guy).
His anger with Cas, like his anger with Sam, is closest of all to the possibility of those two characters pulling themselves back round, because it holds the memory of what they had been.
I don’t mean to do the Sam is [i]this[/i]/Dean [i]that[/i], type thing but the thing I will say about Dean that is different with Sam is that you’d be hard-pushed to mistake Dean’s meaning in any given situation.
Your point about DB is interesting. Is Season 4 Sam different solely for the blood drinking? It puzzles me that Sam believes he needs it for his powers, and this is enforced late Season 5 by the many gallons he downs to prep him for Lucifer, but Ruby tells him those powers are in him innately, the blood is merely a kind of enabling focus for his powers. (In the same way that Dean was be the true vessel for Michael but he has no need to sup holy water, or even to be remotely holy for that matter.) Where did that idea go to? Shouldn’t Sam still be having visions / smoking folk by hand, stronger etc. Or again in a Season 2 episode (‘Born Under a Bad Sign’ ?) Sam says he’s been having violent angry thoughts that he’s finding it harder to resist, as if there is already the groundwork for darkness in him, or is that just ‘Meg’ talking at that stage?
Dunno. I don’t as someone testily announced upthread ‘hate’ Sam. I wish him better.
I don’t think is different SOLELY for drinking DB, obviously he had 4 months with Dean in hell for him. My belief is that Sam felt completely powerless when Dean went to hell. He’d tried EVERYTHING to save him and nothing worked and then even tried to bargain his own soul and was rejected. He felt worthless. And then Ruby comes along and says he DIDN’T try everything, he didn’t use his demon given powers and suggested if he had Dean wouldn’t have died and that he could still take revenge, while saving people.
He tries without drinking DB but is getting headaches and its not working so well. So he lets himself be seduced into drinking blood to be stronger to kill Lilith to save innocents. And he begins to feel not so powerless, but is still is racked with guilt for not saving Dean. Then someone else saves Dean, but at least he can make sure Lilith is dead and can never hurt Dean again and stop the Apocalypse at the same time. So he likes the power, because before he felt useless. But he also genuinely wants to believe he can do something good with the curse he’s been given.
Now as for his powers in general. The visions stopped when Azazel died and since they’d always been linked to Azazel I have no problem with. The new abilities the others got came to giving into there darkside, according to Ava and Jake. And since Sam never truly did go dark that is why those never came into play. Now it’s possible that they were wrong but I don’t think Sam would mess with them because he’d been warned. And besides those might have ended with Azazel death too just like the visions.
Since he could only hurt demons with his new power, I think he rationalized its use. And for the reasons above. The whole not needing the feather to fly, Dumbo thing. I did originally take to mean he didn’t need the blood to do his thing. But several other people said they thought Ruby just meant that the blood did make him stronger but that what she really was doing was seducing him away from Dean and into making the wrong decisions. Regardless of if he needs the blood or not I don’t see Sam ever choosing to try and use his powers again to test the theory. I think he associates his powers with letting Lucifer free and the destruction of his relationship with Dean. Which he has been trying to makeup for ever since.
I like my characters flawed too. What I can’t understand is how that relates to you not liking Sam? He has flaws aplenty. Or do you just like Dean’s flaws and not Sam’s. Because they are definitely not the same flaws. Dean is more likely to lash out with his fists or words. (You’re right you typically know where he stands). He’s hotheaded a lot of times and rushes to judgment. Sam’s mistakes usually came from rationalizations of a situation and hiding his actions from Dean, rather than fighting them out. He’s actually been since season 5. As far as we know, he hardly hid anything from Dean this year(except his pain), which at one point led to Dean killing Amy.
Now if you just meant you’d like to get more inside Sam’s head next season- I’ll give you an AMEN.
So that’s ‘Amen’. Primarily I mean I wish we were in Sam’s head more. At the basic level of the writing. It exasperates me beyond expression that his motivations are all devolved out to demons, powers, etc. And I’m thinking ‘Be Yourself’. There was a feeling off of Sam in early years that you knew was him. For whatever reason the show took him away from that early characterisation. I miss it. He must still be in there. If it were possible to [i]trust[/i] that more, I think your lovely full account of Sam through the DB stuff would make complete sense to me. (And I do [i]want[/i] to like the b*gger. That’s the frustrating thing to me.)
Why Dean’s flaws and not Sam’s…
The crucial difference for me is that Dean’s flaws are Dean’s flaws. He’s rootedly ordinary. He might do conflicting things but it comes out of a solid self.
Sam’s flaws are Azazel’s, Ruby’s, Lucifer’s, Castiel’s etc. Seems that the writers won’t let the dirt stick to Sam himself and it makes me 😥 because this diminishes the character. The whole Team Free Will thing of fighting destiny means you have to own your own actions. C’mon, Sam. But I take what you say about Sam’s faults of concealment (which don’t even seem to be about secrecy so much as it’s an attempt to prevent the thing from getting out into the world and becoming real).
In terms of [i]good[/i] faults, I like Sam running away from his family to make a life for himself. Run Sammy. I loved the generous self-knowledge he showed where he lets Dean go to meet Michael in the face of acknowledging that he himself (Sam) can’t be trusted by his brother. You could feel that hit him and he just carried on with what he had to say. I enjoy his prickly, ‘I am the clever one’ streak. He does think he’s brighter and that slight superiority was a good part of the dynamic. I’m sure there are other good things that are wrong with him too. Your thing about concealment.
Now I’m exhausted. I’ve blathered far too much and done too little work. Bye for now and thanks everyone for the good conversation.
With respect AggieD…
I cannot disagree with you more on Sam not owning his flaws and his mistakes .I dont know what you have been watching? but he more than any character has ‘owned’ his mistakes and flaws and suffering nearly two centuries of torture is a testament to that.
To be honest and again with respect I dont think there is anything Sam can do for you to like him as you seem to hold him to a impossible standard he can never live up to and really he will never ever satisfy you.You view Sam a certain way and you will always look to find reasons too I am afraid.
Yeah . . . I agree w/Sharon. I honestly don’t think there is anything Sam can do to make you like him.
It sounds like you don’t care for the writing b/c you haven’t rec’d enough insight into Sam, but then you’re not too interested in trying to understand Sam. The brush you’ve painted him w/is very black and white, IMO. It also seems like you want Sam to be inherently evil or violent or something, and that’s never been the case so I’m not sure why you’re disappointed that he isn’t being portrayed as evil or violent.
You complain that dirt doesn’t “stick” to Sam but you also say it took Dean a year to “forgive” Sam for Season 4 actions so I’m not seeing how “dirt” doesn’t stick to him. Sam took full responsibility for the Apocalypse and jumped into the Cage to atone for his actions.
If you return, I’d love to know how you see Season 1-2 Sam. You seem to have a lot of problems w/him not being portrayed as “evil” so I’m really curious as to how you saw him from the beginning.
[quote]It exasperates me beyond expression that his motivations are all devolved out to demons, powers, etc.[/quote] Is Sam motivated to do what he does because of what demons, the powers etc have done to him? Yes, I believe he is. However, while they are an understandable motivation, they are not his [i]sole[/i] motivation. If they were then how does it explain Sam going after the ‘ordinary’ (for want of a better word) supernaturals, putting his life at risk again and again when there were no demons, powers etc involved?
[quote]Sam’s flaws are Azazel’s, Ruby’s, Lucifer’s, Castiel’s etc. [/quote] How do you make out that Sam’s flaws are Azazels, Ruby’s, Lucifer’s, Castiel’s etc? Sam could not control what Castiel et al used him for or did to him any more than Dean could. And none of the four characters you mentioned actually controlled what Sam did. They might have nudged him in a certain direction but the decisions on how to act in relation to it all came from Sam ie Castiel opened the door but he didn’t shove Sam out of it.
[quote]Seems that the writers won’t let the dirt stick to Sam himself and it makes me because this diminishes the character. The whole Team Free Will thing of fighting destiny means you have to own your own actions.[/quote] Okay, you’re going to have to help this dumbass out today. We’re in the middle of our annual daily heat wave so I think it’s melted my brain. When has Sam [i]not[/i] owned his own actions? He wasn’t kidnapped by representatives from Stanford. He wasn’t pushed into the hole in the ground in [i]Swan Song[/i]. There wasn’t demon blood slipped into his beer. The demon killing powers didn’t zap out of him while he was sleeping. These are all things that he himself [i]choose[/i] to do; no one else [i]could[/i] have do it. They are all things that he has acknowledged he has done and they are all things that he has willingly paid the price for. From what I can see he has owned his actions, all of them, whether they be good or bad, since day one.
In relation to ‘dirt’ not sticking to Sam, all the dirt that has been lobbed at Sam since day one has stuck, and much more so than any other character because we haven’t been privy to his point of view as a way to explain it off. If it hadn’t stuck then we wouldn’t be discussing it years later.
I’m sorry, AggieD, I figure we’re just looking at the character from two different perspectives but I’ve seen little evidence that Sam has been whitewashed of any of his actions, be they supernaturally motivated or otherwise.
Hmm . . . I guess I’m not understanding your perspective. You’re upset b/c it [i]wasn’t[/i] Sam who consciously allowed Dean to get bitten by a vamp but a “soulless” version of himself so he can’t legitimately be blamed for that action?
Are you saying Sam’s character has been weakened b/c excuses have been given for his actions like being under the influence of DB or being soulless instead of him just “owning” them? You’d like it better if Sam just did “evil” things – because consciously allowing Dean to be vamped would be evil and irredeemable to most in the audience – b/c he wanted to do them?
Neither brother has committed any truly evil acts so I’m not sure why you want Sam to be the one to do so?
I think there’s a large portion of the audience who has never forgiven Sam for his actions in Season 4 and who think he will never redeem himself b/c of them. Those people certainly don’t give him a pass b/c he was addicted to DB. I don’t believe Dean did either. As you said, it took Dean well over a year to “forgive” Sam and trust him again.
I also think what you noticed was a change in the writing from the early seasons to Season 4. It sounds like you wanted more perspective from Sam re: his actions in Season 4, but Kripke wanted them to be a big secret so the audience was left in the dark.
While it may not seem like it, I’m actually quite hard on Season 4 Sam. I’m not giving him a pass for being depressed or suicidal. It will never make sense to me why he hooked up w/Ruby. I actually see that as a writing flaw. IMO, Sam was sacrificed so Kripke could continue his Season 3 Ruby arc; he didn’t much care, IMO, how it made Sam look.
That said, I still love Sam. He was perfectly fine and all “Sammy” in Season 5. He gets a complete pass from me for SS. As Kelly mentioned, I don’t consider Sam and SS to be the same person. Sam’s never been evil (or full of rage) so I’ve never expected him to behave that way or display those traits/characteristics. As I mentioned, neither brother has been presented that way.
In BUABS, Meg was saying “Sam” was full of rage b/c she was doing whatever she could to push Dean into killing Sam or believing that Sam had finally gone to the “darkside.” Sam wasn’t actually having dark/violent thoughts. In SI, Sam said he was full of rage but that came out of nowhere, IMO. I’d never seen Sam full of rage and anger until this episode, and then it was promptly dropped – another reason why Season 5 is not among my favorite seasons.
AggieD, I must admit there is much about your comments that leaves me scratching my head. I’m not sure if you’re just being very, very selective in the character traits you’re applying to Sam or if you’ve created a Sam in your head that does not exist or that you’ve deemed Sam not worth the effort of actually trying to understand his motivations etc because they’re not easy to see.
[quote]Then he becomes (to give a conservative overview): deceitful, driven by evil thoughts, untrustworthy, cruel to others and especially those close to him. [/quote] Yikes, if that’s conservative…. You do realise the exact same criteria you’ve listed here to demonise Sam also applies to Dean, John and Bobby, and in abundance.
Given that you have labelled Sam all of these thing, have you stopped to consider [i]why[/i] Sam felt it necessary to be ‘deceitful, untrustworthy, cruel to others and especially those close to him’? I know the show is not prone to telling us anything from his point of view but that does not mean that the viewers themselves should not try to consider things from his point of view.
[quote]I really regret what the show did to the character of Sam. ‘Under the influence’ is not an adequate excuse for drunk drivers, nor should it give Sam a free pass. [/quote] ‘Under the influence’ was never used to give Sam a free pass. He accepted full responsibility for what he did and did a couple of hundred years in the Cage as penance. He also apologised profusely for what he did as Soulless Sam and did what he could to make amends for it before learning it was futile. He then took on hell, again, to save his brother. That’s hardly a free pass.
[quote]the soulless Sam smirk of pleasure when Dean is blooded by the bubble perm vampire. Lack of moral awareness is one impediment. Taking pleasure in the threat of his brother’s ruin comes from a different source.[/quote] In [i]You Can’t Handle the Truth[/i] it alluded to the fact that Sam was pleased because with Dean turned they now had an inside man with the vamps, not because Dean got blooded. Why on earth would Sam be pleased that Dean was now a vampire? Soulless Sam’s goal was to kill evil, why would he be pleased that, via Dean, there was now more evil there to be killed if necessary?
[quote]Is there a way back for him for watchers like me?[/quote] That really depends on the kind of watcher that is. However, if those watchers persist in looking back three or four years to pick and choose evidence of all Sam’s wrongdoings, and willingly ignore all the right he has done, if they brush aside all the (admittedly scant) explanations of Sam’s actions, if they continue to ignore that the same traits they use to judge and castigate Sam are also evident in the other characters in the show, if they persist in seeing him solely through the eyes of Dean, if they continue to judge Sam to a higher moral standard than everyone else, then no, I feel there will be no way back for Sam for ‘watchers’ like that, and there never will be.
[quote]It makes him hard to like, for me, and maybe most of all because the motivation is always spun out to be external to his basic character.[/quote] There are two things to address there. In many episodes eg [i]Sam, Interrupted[/i], Sam has acknowledged that his flaws and motivations are his own and do not stem from external forces. However, it is not possible to cast aside external motivations when it comes to the assessment of his basic character, or anyone’s basic character.
Without external motivation, Sam would not have done a fraction of what he did. He would still be the decent, sweet, huffy guy you seem to want. (Actually, I still consider him decent and sweet) The seeds might have been there, as they are in most people, but he would not have acted on it because there would have been no need to.
Consider it this way, without external motivation, Dean was a guy who chose to disrupt his brother’s life at Stanford just because he wanted to, who lied to him and kept things from him for years, who tortured others and enjoyed it. Without external motivation John was an obsessive man who uprooted his family and put them into precarious situations for years, who threw his son out of the family for choosing to go to college and asked one son to kill the other.
However, circumstances [i]do[/i] change people. It can temper what lies deep inside us or it can nurture it. External motivations have moulded all three Winchesters, not just Sam.
[quote]John Winchester, bad father, stand up guy, full of honour. Rufus, drunk, grudge-bearing, does the job. Dean, going the same way…. [/quote] You’ve lost me here. What differentiates Sam from John? The show has long established how alike they are. And what way is Dean going that Sam is not?
[quote]I like these guys who bear their own load very much [/quote] In which case, Sam should be your most favourite guy in the world because he has been bearing his own load for years now. He has acknowledged his mistakes and his flaws and atoned for them time and time again.
[quote]I seem to be saying harsh things about him, it’s more of a lament that he was changed so much and so often.[/quote] Given what Sam has gone through, given what he has done, given what he has endured, it is completely unrealistic to expect him to not change.
[quote]The first is to do with ‘not his fault’….. I’d rather he were at fault but for lesser crimes![/quote] Sam has been held to fault for all crimes, big and small, by both himself, Dean, the angels and damn near everyone. However, [i]why[/i] Sam did what he did, has been explained. In the two instances you mentioned, he bled demons because he needed to drink a lot of blood to be able to house Lucifer and he tried to kill Bobby as part of a spell to keep out his soul. Being unsympathetic is a byproduct of what he has done. If you judged Dean solely by what he did in hell, or just by his decision to say yes to Michael, then you’d consider him unsympathetic too. However, it is necessary to consider ‘why’ he did these things.
Sam has indeed been badly served by a reluctance to show anything from his point of view. However, just because his motivations etc have not been written in big black letters, ten miles high as they have been with other characters, does not mean that the scant bit of information that has been shown should be ignored.
[quote]To look at ‘not his fault’. He’s not possessed through the demon blood episode. And you really do need to see that stuff. [/quote] It would certainly make it easier on the viewer to see that stuff, but it is not necessarily needed. Sam isn’t an answer, he’s an equation, and a freaking complex equation at that. He’s university standard Math, not baby infants. There’s a bit of work involved in understanding him but all the bits are there.
[quote]It’s the mechanics of it. Someone comes unhinged, there’s usually some dogged weak point that allows the unhinging to happen. [/quote] I’m not sure if I’m reading this right. Do you feel Sam became unhinged because there is some dogged weak point inside him? AggieD, [i]all[/i] the Winchesters have become unhinged at one stage or another. Are they all weak? Consider what drove Sam to become ‘unhinged’ in the first place. The death of his father, his girlfriend, his brother, the knowledge that his brother was now being tortured in hell, demon army, dying himself, the list is endless have all played a part in who he is and what he did.
[quote]You do get glimpses of him, the real Sam, through Dean’s eyes, his fears, anguish etc. In some ways, that’s why I’m glad it takes Dean a time to forgive. Fills in retrospectively some of the human heft we’ve missed.[/quote] I would respectfully, but vehemently, disagree with you on that point. For me, the very [i]worst[/i] thing the show ever did to Sam was to show his actions in season 4 and beyond from Dean’s point of view. Dean has never been a passive observer when it comes to Sam. He judges him to a much higher standard than everyone else. He had, and possibly still has, an idealistic, unrealistic view of his brother. In season 4 Dean was having his ear bent by the angels left, right and centre and we know how they considered Sam. Add to that, we [i]could[/i] not see Sam’s motivations or fears or doubts in season 4 because Dean was too caught up in his own anger and doubts and issues to care a whit about them. Sam tried to explain what led him to do what he did in Dean’s absence but all Dean could focus on was ‘it’s wrong’. He focused more on Sam sleeping with the ‘demon bitch’ than what led Sam to Ruby in the first place and then it became a case of ‘My way or no way’. If you only see Sam in terms of how Dean saw him then, then it’s really no wonder you have a poor opinion of him.
[quote]I think perhaps I’m doing the same thing, at long range, being harsh on him in hope that we get back the grown-up version of the man younger Sam might have become.[/quote] AggieD, do you not feel it quite short sighted to look at Sam as he was in season 1, young, naive etc and assume that he’s going to end up an older version of that man? In order for that to happen you would need for Jessica, John and Sam himself to have never died. You would need to have Dean not go to hell for Sam. You would need for Sam to never have had visions, or been picked by YED or been marked for evil from generations back. It’s possible the Sam you want to see is a Sam that we have [i]never[/i] seen.
[quote] I would respectfully, but vehemently, disagree with you on that point. For me, the very worst thing the show ever did to Sam was to show his actions in season 4 and beyond from Dean’s point of view. Dean has [i]never[/i] been a passive observer when it comes to Sam. He judges him to a much higher standard than everyone else. He had, and possibly still has, an idealistic, unrealistic view of his brother. In season 4 Dean was having his ear bent by the angels left, right and centre and we know how they considered Sam. Add to that, we [i]could[/i] not see Sam’s motivations or fears or doubts in season 4 because Dean was too caught up in his own anger and doubts and issues to care a whit about them. Sam tried to explain what led him to do what he did in Dean’s absence but all Dean could focus on was ‘it’s wrong’. He focused more on Sam sleeping with the ‘demon bitch’ than what led Sam to Ruby in the first place and then it became a case of ‘My way or no way’. If you only see Sam in terms of how Dean saw him then, then it’s really no wonder you have a poor opinion of him. [/quote]
I hope I did the quote right I always have issues.
@Tim That’s really interesting about season 4 being more from Dean POV therefore may ’cause people to judge Sam by Dean high standards for Sam, which was also effected by the angels whispering doubts in his ear.
I think the way the story was presented in a way to create the most tension possible. For storytelling purposes they held back a lot of Sam’s POV to give the viewer the same fears that Dean had IMO. They gave just enough of Sam’s POV to build that tension until it breaks in the Rapture when he attacks the demon for her blood. I never took things from strictly Dean’s POV, or Sam’s so maybe that is why the storyline works so well for me. Sam character took a hit no doubt, but it this case the story more than made it worth it. And like you said he more than redeemed himself. I loved him more than ever after Swan Song. Actually even earlier. When Bobby tell him to lose his number, I cried for him and again when Dean says, “They can never be what they were.” I thought I’d completely lose it.
He took hit after hit, usually from the person he loves most in the world, that entire year before jumping in to the cage The only time he defended himself at all was in Fallen Idols. When he said that they couldn’t repeat the same patterns that led to his mistakes. HE never mentioned the fact that Dean had broken the first seal (in fact when Dean told him about torturing in hell Sam defended Dean against Dean) or that Cas had kept quiet and conspired with the angels UNTIL THE LAST FUCKING MINUTE. He never even railed at the angels who basically set him up to start the Apocalypse. He didn’t blame Ruby even. He blamed himself. Perhaps because he didn’t defend himself and no one else really did, some of the audience just placed all the blame on him too.
Again I took this as a storytelling device, not as the writer’s POV necessarily.
[quote]Is there a way back for him for watchers like me?[/quote]
I can’t speak to “viewers like you”. I can only respond to you and I would say from your posts that the answer is no, you will hate Sam until the series ends.
You call any explanation of Sam’s mistakes as him not taking responsibility. You only enjoyed when he was portrayed as completely, utterly evil. You see Dean’s flaws as flaws and Sam’s actions as nonredeemable, no matter what the background context. Everyone views the show through a different perspective and yours is that Sam is worthless. Mine is that he is not. We should probably agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Oops, my quotes went wrong! Must have clicked carole with a clumsy thumb. Sorry 😳
SPN HAS ROLE PLAYING ACCOUNTS ON TWITTER I FOLLOW SOME & 1 THING THAT BOTHERS ME IS THEY ARE TORTURING ADAM IN THE PIT. I KNOW THEY TORTURED SAM BECAUSE HE SCREWED UP THE PLAN BUT ADAM DID AS HE WAS ASKED. THEY SAY THEY FOLLOW THE SHOW BUT PLEASE SOMEONE TELL WHERE THEY GOT THAT FROM. NOW FOR MY WISH LIST, YOU TO LADIES HAD ME SCREAMING IN HERE. YES YOU ALICE AND ARDE 😆
GET ADAM OUT OF THAT DAMN PIT. YESTERDAY
MORE SINCERE BROTHERLY MOMENTS
BRING OR EXPLAIN FRANK
I LIKE MACKEY the no nonsense hunter who found Cas
DEATH HAS GOT TO MAKE MORE CAMEOS
CAN THE BOYS GET SOME WOMEN just a few epis.
AMULET SHOWN IN SAMS BELONGINGS
MUSIC they have the money Yes I said it !! problem?
RUFUS’ CABIN IS THE BOYS HOME. YES THEY HAVE TO BE
ON THE ROAD I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT EVERY BODY ELSE AND THEIR MOTHER HAS A HOME BASE WHY NOT OUR BOYS
LOVE, FAMILY & FRIENDS NOT TO MUCH TO ASK
p.s. I had to go to urban dict. to find out what ‘gank’ means
😳
How about an episode about “nothing.” Do an episode in the Seinfeld tradition where stuff just happens. Or an episode where they have a day off—together!!
I love this idea! I loved Weekend at Bobby’s where we got to see A Day in the Life of Bobby Singer. When the Winchesters are back together it would be really fun to see something similar for them 🙂
– Resurrect Anna. If Cas deserves a second chance, so does she.
– For crying out loud, give Cas some decent clothes. The scrubs are depressing, and look pathetic with the trench coat. Have him lose the coat in Purgatory, and get him some normal clothes when he gets back. Please. I cannot emphasize enough how upsetting his current outfit is to me.
– Have Cas’ wings cut/burned off. It would keep him from being too powerful, and it would be interesting to see how he deals.
– You can either stop baiting shippers, or you can acknowledge that Cas is in love with Dean. Pick one.
– Have a main plot line that actually springs from the Winchester’s story, instead of just having them react to stuff going on around them, as has been happening for the past two seasons.
– More Jody Mills. Possibly Sam/Jody?
I so agree on Anna. I actually liked Anna. She was the only angel willing to do what it took to protect humanity. Now I didn’t want her to kill Sam or John or Mary, but her thinking was pretty impeccable. If Sam didn’t exist Lucifer wouldn’t have the perfect vessel, the Apocalypse would be stopped and billions of lives would be saved. Frankly, I think Sam would have gone along with her, if anyone had stopped to ask him.
My vote, stop baiting shippers. I don’t need unrequited Destiel. I really don’t need requited Destiel. I want the whole thing to remain in fanfiction. Before anyone gets unhappy, I feel the same way about Wincest. It’s not on the show, it should never be on the show and although the once or twice a season mentions were initially amusing, the amusement has long since been run into the ground. Dean is straight, Sam is straight. Castiel is married, possibly twice if you count Jimmy Novack’s wife and seems to have a thing for Meg. Let’s let the rest just die.
Agree. All this constant fanservice is annoying. Same goes for buttsex/gay jokes. Supernatural used to have better humor.
Let’s try not to resurrect more angels, please. Anna was cool and I loved her, but she’s gone. Bringing Castiel randomly back was bad enough.
Death should mean something.
[quote][quote]Is there a way back for him for watchers like me?[/quote]
I can’t speak to “viewers like you”. I can only respond to you and I would say from your posts that the answer is no, you will hate Sam until the series ends.
You call any explanation of Sam’s mistakes as him not taking responsibility. You only enjoyed when he was portrayed as completely, utterly evil. You see Dean’s flaws as flaws and Sam’s actions as nonredeemable, no matter what the background context. Everyone views the show through a different perspective and yours is that Sam is worthless. Mine is that he is not. We should probably agree to disagree and leave it at that.[/quote]
Yep, lets agree to disagree… Except i didn’t say what you think i did! I have said that I don’t hate the character. Nor do I see him as worthless. I try to credit his perspective to redress the balance of sympathy, but honestly it’s an effort sometimes. Why does the show [i]keep[/i] making him unrelatable?
I believe he has been badly served by the direction the show has taken. Sam internalises stuff (one barrier to understanding him) at the same time that the plots devolve his motivation out to others (another obstacle to knowing Sam). That doesn’t leave a whole lot, does it? If Sam were always remote, you’d say it was the actor, but he isn’t, therefore it must be the writing, or else the direction that makes him unsympathetic for some watchers. Not just for me.
General note.
I don’t have time to reply to all the comments, sorry. Especially as quite a few are misreadings, or are going over ground that was already covered in a friendlier spirit with Kelly and lala. Thanks for that you two. 🙂 Some of you ain’t friendly no more!! Seems to me. I’ll bow out now folks.
Sam’s powers need to come back or at least be explained, but I would love to see Sam save dean using his powers in a really desperate moment from adrenaline not demon blood
We seem to be a very demanding bunch.
Alice I have to agree with your request from the end of last season : The words “douche,” “douchebag,” “dick,” and “gank” are not permitted to be used again. Get a freaking thesaurus writers. Or better yet, the Urban Dictionary. There are tons of goodies in there.
May I also petition for the loss of all head/brain/mind related nicknames. Including, but not limited to, loaf, melon, custard, breadbasket and grapefruit. When even Jim Beaver keeps replacing them with ‘head’ (as seen in the outtakes) it begins to look like they ain’t working.
Also I have a special request that no-one ever again, at any time, says “Pain in the pooper” , ever.
Having said that we are well into season 8 now and this particular nervous tick on the part of the writers has been pulled under control!
some are realy NOT gonna heapen EVER
some are stupid demands:
Alice demands
– No more Dean constantly clammoring over pie. We get it, he loves it. I’ll allow him to savor over it once after he returns from Purgatory (assuming there’s no pie there) but otherwise, it’s overdone.
[b]is funny as hell wil always be[/b]
– No more FBI. EVER.
[b]locals cops can’t be done everyone knows the locals and where to get a badge, fbi just 1 badge use it everywhere[/b]
– The words “douche,” “douchebag,” “dick,” and “gank” are not permitted to be used again. Get a freaking thesaurus writers. Or better yet, the Urban Dictionary. There are tons of goodies in there.
[b]is just how they are, you can’t just stop saying you favorite word[/b]
– Guest stars cannot be returned to the show for the sole purpose of being killed.
– How about a happy ending for once in a while, for Christ’s sake?
– There is to be no brotherly estrangement over “a big secret.”
– The Impala cannot be replaced by any other car again. EVER.
[b]it had a perpuse of hiding[/b]
– Sam Winchester has a frakkin IQ of like 800 or something (yes, I’m guessing but it’s up there). He cannot be written as clueless and dumb. Dean is no slouch either. A GED and a give ’em Hell attitude has to go somewhere, right?
– Can the brothers flipping smile and have fun once in a while? I mean, once they’re reunited. By all means, sour looks and weepy eyes of despair galore while they’re apart.
– For the sake of fan sanity, because people won’t shut up about it, just bring back the amulet. Give it a funeral, use it in a ritual that turns it to dust, I don’t care, just give it a better ending than what it got. We already know Sam fished it out of the trash, so humor us.
– PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD OR SATAN, PLEASE, TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO SAM’S POWERS. I’ve never liked how they could conveniently go away with no explanation after five seasons of them being a significant part of the plot.
Ardeospina’s Demands:
– The Impala isn’t allowed to sit out half the season anymore. If there’s a REALLY good reason for her to be absent for one episode, fine, but only one episode per season.
– I agree with Alice about the FBI, unless Dean borrows that gray suit of Jensen’s from upfronts.
– The people they save this season thank them afterwards. Oh, and let them save people this season.
[b]they do save people most of the time -_- [/b]
– Sam gets to laugh at Dean’s bad jokes. Seriously, let him lighten up. If you live with someone with a certain sense of humor, it doesn’t take too long before you just accept it and start joining in. It would be worth it for the look of surprise on Dean’s face, too.
– Haunted beard convention and Sam and Dean have to grow some scruff to blend in.
– Shirtless scene? Great! Don’t make them wax their chests. It’s wholly unbelievable that Sam and Dean would do that much manscaping in between hunts. Men have hair on their chests. We can all handle that.
– Plots without state-sized holes in them.
– Dean deals with Roy and Walt. He doesn’t have to kill them, just scare the piss out of them somehow.
– Adam is mentioned. They can’t have their half-brother rot in the cage without at least feeling some guilt over it.
Whew, that’s better. Any questions?
So nice of you to comment on a fun, speculative, yet outdated article that was written long before season eight ever began. It was in response to what happened in season seven. Glad you got the point (sarcasm).
BTW, there’s a thing out there called a spell checker. You might want to use one of those. Thanks much.