Season Six – A Second Look
For three years, ever since discovering this show, I’ve been the kind of fan who has enjoyed the Supernatural ride with abandon, take me where you wish, I’m here for the fun; Season 6 has changed that. Now, I have an expectation.
When I wrote my last article, I had a lot of expectations, many of which have disappeared in the intervening weeks and I’m left with only one, albeit the critical one. Someone recently commented on my last article that I, along with those that commented, need to chill out. To a degree that commenter is correct, speaking only for myself, to another degree that commenter quite obviously did not read my article with any clarity for I made it quite clear at the end of the article that in the end any television show is nothing more than escape and my choice to watch or not will in no way affect my quality of life.
Season Six – A Second Look, By Elle2
For three years, ever since discovering this show, I’ve been the kind of fan who has enjoyed the Supernatural ride with abandon, take me where you wish, I’m here for the fun; Season 6 has changed that. Now, I have an expectation.
When I wrote my last article, I had a lot of expectations, many of which have disappeared in the intervening weeks and I’m left with only one, albeit the critical one. Someone recently commented on my last article that I, along with those that commented, need to chill out. To a degree that commenter is correct, speaking only for myself, to another degree that commenter quite obviously did not read my article with any clarity for I made it quite clear at the end of the article that in the end any television show is nothing more than escape and my choice to watch or not will in no way affect my quality of life.
I have enjoyed the current winter hellatus and frankly am not all that excited or obsessed or frothing with anticipation for the return of Supernatural with new episodes at the end of January. I’m cool with that as well, as some things in our lives are there for only a season while others are there for a lifetime – and none of my lifetime attachments have anything to do with television. Over the years there have been lots of shows that I was passionate about but, when those shows turned in a direction that I didn’t want to go, didn’t like, didn’t enjoy; I left. “The West Wing” was enjoyable to me for about the first four seasons, somewhere in Season 4 it went off track for me and I stopped watching shortly thereafter. “Without a Trace” is another example, it went into Season 4 with great potential but instead of paying off those storylines that were set up it went the route of a soap opera and I too stopped watching. “Criminal Minds” was a show I watched for a few seasons with great eagerness, now I check in from time to time but I have no more excitement for it and no expectations either; it is what it is and for me it’s usually something to have on in the background while I’m dusting (I hate dusting).
Supernatural will be no different, as passionate as I have been since “Mystery Spot,” if Supernatural is no longer a show about two brothers, doing whatever it is that the writers decide to do with them, but rather is a show that will occasionally pay homage to the brotherly bond only to wrench it apart again, either through the twists of noir or through some other method, then it’s no longer a show for me.
Believe that or not, I don’t care. I know who I am and know that when I say something, I mean it. You’ll know if I’m watching and enjoying the show only by my writing. I’ll only have something to say if it is positive; if all I have are negatives, I’ll not be sharing; I’ll simply not be here. So time will tell if I am a woman of my word and time will tell if Supernatural is a show I’ll be watching.
So, am I ‘back’ with Supernatural? I am, with a huge caveat, lose the lies and the questioning of motives and let the brothers be brothers again, for that is what I fell in love with in the first place. I can handle the stories that promise much but deliver less and can handle the scenes that play for comedy at the expense of the characters as long as the brothers are brothers. The first half of Season 6, except for Weekend at Bobby’s, fails on all accounts for me because there is no Sam and Dean and without that there is no Supernatural, at least not for me.
The essence of Supernatural to me is the two brothers fighting the good fight, sometimes with each other, but always together as buddies; loyal to a fault. When I boil down my biggest frustration with Season 6, it comes down to the core of the show, the brotherly bond, is still missing. I completely understand and expect and frankly want it to take time to be reestablished and I have consistently stated that I don’t ever believe it will be established with the innocence and carefree nature of Season 1 and even parts of Season 2; too much has happened. I do believe that, if the bond basically went back to how it was in Season 1 and 2, I would be disappointed for to me that would be at the expense of the character development of five seasons.
I was on board with Season 6 up to Live Free or Twi-Hard especially in regard to the brotherly bond and I did comment either in one of my reviews or on other articles that I thought the bond was being organically repaired in ways that Season 5 missed completely. However, once it was established that what I was watching was the physical shell of Sam without any of what makes Sam Sam (to me at least) and that Dean was adrift basically because he was living alongside what I’ve termed as Sam 2.0, others call him Fakie, RoboSam, Not!Sam or what have you, I felt like I had been lied to regarding their relationship. Even now, with a better understanding of how the storytelling is going this season, I maintain that there is nothing in the first eleven episodes of Season 6 (other than the one massively enjoyable Weekend At Bobby’s) that is worthwhile for me to watch.
Heading into the second half of the season I have hopes for better things but I’ll admit this new writing style that is in play is one I have little experience with and based on how it affected the brotherly relationship in the first eleven episodes, little enjoyment of. I do like it for the potentials in all other aspects of the season as presented thus far though, so provided that the writers are content with their storyline of Sam’s missing soul being done and over with and the brothers can now truly work on being brothers and truly developing a ‘sadder, wiser, more mature, more balanced, more experienced and hopefully stronger because of all they’ve gone through bond’ than I do have high hopes for the back half of Season 6.
Film Noir:
Several people in various articles here made some comments about film noir and I realized that I know little to nothing of how film noir works. So, I typed in film noir and wikipedia spewed forth some little gems which I’ll list below and also add in a comment by Mr. Kripke from the 2010 Comic Con. Here you go, a little primer on film noir that I received:
- Defined as: oneiric (refers to dream states), strange, erotic, ambivalent (simultaneous attraction for and repulsion from a person, object or action, Webster’s), cruel
- Tragic or bleak in conclusion (although some films have had very happy endings)
-
Contain unusually convoluted storylines that at times involve flashbacks
- (and here I’ll add Mr. Kripke’s comment: “My love as a 12 year old boy was Star Wars so for me the mythology was Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, and great Joseph Campbell and a straight forward “A Hero’s Journey†that got marching forward and escalating and Sera brings a different wealth of experiences. We’re talking more about a Chinatown or LA Confidential and something that twists, pains, and every time you learn something new in the mythology it changes what became before it. What does it all mean, what does it add up to and I think there will be more of a mystery this year that I think is interesting. (emphasis mine)
- A crime investigation is prevalent
- False suspicions, accusations, betrayals and double crosses
- Amnesia is frequent
- Tends to revolve around heroes who are more flawed and morally questionable than the norm and these heroes are often characterized as alienated
- People are typically trapped in unwanted situations which generally they did not cause but likely exacerbated, they strive against random, uncaring fate and are frequently doomed
- The tone overall is hopeless, dark
Lest we get overly depressed by this, remember as Sera and Ben and Eric and others have always shown, dark on Supernatural is darn funny (A Very Supernatural Christmas anyone? And that’s not all, add your own.) I’m just hoping for a bit more of the macabre humor and less of the slapstick that tends to go over the top at the expense of character continuity (Clap Your Hands is a big culprit of that for both brothers).
So, now that I understand the writing style more and I’ve decided that the lack of the brotherly bond is my critical issue, I’m able to address some of the other aspects that I had fallen out of love with and had seen as an attempt by the writers to stake a claim that one brother has greater importance than the other; something I had never, ever believed or ascribed to until this season.
I’m very happy to state that because of the many comments I received giving an alternate point of view and some time to reflect I am back to my original stance on this show and that is two brothers with equal importance in the journey.
It’s a Matter of Perspective:
Allow me a little tale to illustrate the point. This tale has as its setting a ship on the ocean and is the conversation between two individuals during a foggy night near a coastline: (you may have heard this in varying iterations; I altered it slightly to make it easier to type (namely Voice No. 1 and Voice No. 2 but the core is the same):
Voice No. 1: Divert your course 15 degrees to the north to avoid collision.
Voice No. 2: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the south to avoid collision.
Voice No. 1: This is the captain and I am saying again that you are to divert your course 15 degrees to the north to avoid collision.
Voice No. 2: I’m a first mate and I am saying that you are to divert your course 15 degrees to the south to avoid collision.
Voice No. 1: This is a battleship, divert your course!
Voice No. 2: I’m a lighthouse.
So, who do you think diverted their course?
The point of that little tale to me is that it is all how you look at things and, once you have all the information, you can make a better decision, there’s a lesson in there for me.
I’ve written a series of articles that I’ve titled, “The Road So Far†for each season. The hellatus between Seasons 4 and 5 I churned out four of those, it was exhausting but it was also a revelation to me; the season cannot be judged until the whole of it is revealed. I blame the noir roller coaster ride as the reason I fell out of love with Supernatural this season. Although I do believe that had there not been any soulless Sam and the brothers had truly been rebuilding their relationship I likely would not have fallen so hard.
I had a big hang up regarding Sam’s time in hell being written as if to exceed Dean’s time in hell (note that I said ‘had a big hang up’); that is gone. I’ll give a big shout out to Tim the Enchanter for his post on my article for it was in that excellent post that I found a different perspective. The essence of what Tim wrote is this (forgive me, Tim, for this is a crude paraphrase): just because Dean’s hell happened a while ago doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. There was much more to what Tim wrote but that really triggered something for me. Now, rather than seeing this as a chance to put Sam as the bigger sufferer in hell than Dean I choose to see this as a chance for them to finally have a true common ground through this shared experience.
It was Dean that lost his mother as an almost five year old, not Sam. Sam ‘woke up’ in this life of hunting without ever having a mother. It was Sam who fell in love with Jessica and watched her burn on the ceiling of their apartment all because she ‘got in the way’. It was Sam who had demon blood forced into his mouth as a baby because he was chosen to be Lucifer’s vessel and thus could never ‘scrub’ the curse out of his life. Dean chose to embrace hunting as a child and into his young adulthood in an effort to maintain a tenuous grasp on the ‘family’ he once knew whereas Sam, already cast adrift, wanted to find a way out. As we meet up with them and begin accompanying them on their journey we see that Dean hunts to keep the ‘family’ together whereas Sam hunts out of revenge or a sense of duty. As Sam chooses to embrace hunting and his destiny Dean begins to back away. All these supposed shared experiences have driven them further and further apart rather than together.
With that in mind I’ve reexamined the series as a whole and find the separation of the brothers has been gradually occurring since the beginning of Season 2 and really even in Season 1 as both brothers embarked upon the Season 1 journey of ‘find dad’ for two very different reasons; Sam because finding dad meant finding and killing the thing that killed Jess and then he could sleep for a month and go back to school but for Dean finding dad meant getting the family back together and he’d happily never kill the thing that killed mom (and Jess) if that meant that any of his family would be lost.
But now in Season 6 we are presented with a shared experience, even as it was shared apart, the fallout of which has the potential to bring the brothers together in a new emotional way that they’ve never had before. Both brothers went to hell and both were brought out of hell, both brothers now have this ultimate horror that is forever emblazoned on their psyche’s and by sharing their experiences and seeking support from each other they can (and hopefully will, provided the writers choose this path) have a greater respect and understanding for the other.
I’m very hopeful that this course is what the writers have planned.
Now, about my other issue regarding Dean being summarily dismissed from the storyline that was built up for him in Season 4 and Season 5, well, yeah, he basically was dismissed and his role was given to Adam, in part. I know some don’t see that but I believe it is there clearly and it is there because Season 6 became a reality. I can choose to wallow in my misery over that or I can choose to ‘go with the flow’ because of the necessity of some storyline gymnastics to alter the ending to bring us into Season 6. I still maintain that had Dean not driven to that cemetery, Sam would not have had the fortitude to wrestle control from Lucifer and save the world. Both brothers had a vital role to play, just not the one that we’d had almost two seasons of build up to.
Likely if the series had ended at Swan Song both Sam and Dean would have said yes and done so to save the world but both would have wrestled control back and thrown themselves and the archangel and Lucifer into the pit; they’d have saved the world through sacrificing themselves for eternity. So, I’ll choose to accept that plans changed so that Supernatural could go forward.
Now, as some have wondered at my willingness to overlook ‘slights’ done to Sam in the past, well, I only started watching mid-Season 3 and didn’t start writing until past mid-Season 4. Since I have gone the route in another fandom of negative on top of negative and have vowed to never be that person again, I have no intention of going back and saying, hey, this storyline was dropped in Season 2 or this storyline wasn’t fully fleshed out in Season 2 or what have you. I choose to go forward not backward and I choose to look for the positives, not the negatives. There is plenty I could go into regarding Sam and drinking demon blood that makes very little sense after Ruby’s words in Lucifer Rising but rather than dwelling on the negatives I’ll instead recognize that perhaps some of Eric Kripke’s fears of the mythology getting too big and collapsing under its own weight started to come true and as bold as the show was for taking on this storyline in the end it got away from them; all the better that they wrapped it up. I’ll look at it as a whole and say that as a whole they did well. When it is looked at closely, certain aspects fall apart but they did well overall and I’ll enjoy the overall.
The Future:
I have no idea what the future holds. Perhaps the future holds that Sam does still have demon powers, perhaps not. I’m hoping that he does not for, if the five-year mytharc story is well and truly complete, then Sam should no longer be under the curse of demon powers; the cage should have completely burned them away. I would truly enjoy it if Sam could finally be free of that particular curse on his life and that he can chart a new, fresh course; a course that includes his hell and now post-hell experiences but frees him from that which happened to him as a baby; Sam has earned that freedom. I’d rather he be the hero he is because he chooses to hunt and save people because that is who he is not because there is some power that holds sway over him and thus he is forced to take this course. However, since the critical aspect of the series to me is Sam and Dean as brothers, I know that no matter what the writers reveal behind Sam’s time in the cage and the reasons he was freed will have an impact on my enjoyment; the show is Sam and Dean, do what you want with them as long as you don’t tear them apart anymore.
Perhaps the future holds a reveal that Dean has ‘special’ powers as well. Some have wondered why it is that Dean could kill Leah in 99 Problems and Zach in Point of No Return as well as why his eyes lit up the way they did. I hope there is no such reveal of ‘special’ powers. I’ll hold firm to my beliefs (until the show proves otherwise) that the reason Dean could kill Leah (as a true servant of heaven) is because he had decided to say yes to Michael and thus at that moment WAS a servant of heaven. Also, I’ve consistently stated (and, if I ever get another chance to submit a question to Sera Gamble, this is going to be that question) that the reason Dean could kill Zach was because he held the only weapon in the universe that can kill angels, the angel sword. As for Dean’s eyes lighting up, I still maintain it was a cool effect, nothing more. Is Dean slated to be forever on the yo-yo of self-esteem issues, usually dangling low or does he finally get a chance to find that he is of value and that he has a purpose that he actually embraces; don’t know and just like Sam’s future, as long as the brothers are together, growing and strengthening their bond (and it doesn’t have to be sunshine and unicorns all the time but no more lies and tearing apart), then I say, ‘bring it!’
Maybe the future holds that the amulet will return, don’t know. I’d like it to return though. I do think it was entirely honoring of the story and the revelations of Dark Side of the Moon that Dean dropped it into the trashcan (sob!) and similarly maintain that Sam gave Dean a much greater gift in Point of No Return with his complete faith in Dean that when push shoves he’d do the right thing (and he did). Still, it does represent the bond and at this point, with that bond so frayed after many seasons I’d like the writers to bring back the amulet if for no other reason than as a physical reminder to them (the writers) that they need to stop tampering with the heartbeat of the show (for it’s on life support right now, the heartbeat that is, not the show).
I don’t know what the future holds for Supernatural but I do know that I’m willing to continue the ride with one caveat; stop messing with the brotherly bond. I understand better now the twists and turns and deceptions and false trails of noir and I’ll be willing to take those surprises with purgatory, souls missing, loose nukes, heaven’s civil war, monsters awry and whatever else is thrown into the pot as long as there are no more false trails, deceptions, twists and turns with the brotherly relationship, please. The brotherly bond being messed with continually, lies piling upon lies, forever questioning the motives of the other, those will make my decision much easier; I’ll take my leave now, thank you very much.
As always, thanks for reading. Elle2
You`ve basically summed up the way i feel about the brotherly bond too. But I`m willing to give the new writers benefit of doubt and will watch to the end of the season. After that we`ll see.
Oh, Elle2, you are giving these issues a lot of thought, dear… I think we all know that Supernatural will be a part of our lives for a certain amount of time. (I hope, though, that its leading actors will be there much, much longer, provided they will get roles after the show will be off air.)
It’s been longer than anyone anticipated, probably. Hardly any show makes it this far.
The only other show I had ever been similarly passionate about was the eighties’ ‘Beauty and the Beast’, and when that ended I was sad, but life went on (though I am still sad that there are no dvds for our region here to be able to go back to those years and watch them again). Today, I love to follow ‘Criminal Minds’, too. And I love ‘True Blood’, but ‘Supernatural’ is still the only show I can’t miss.
I have been skeptical, as you know, during the early episodes of this season, but the last episode, Appointment in Samarra, put the old spark back in my heart. I don’t really know why or what happened. I just feel it again, and I am very happy for it.
And these days as I am home sick I have plenty of time on my hands (since I can’t really concentrate well and thereby am not able to write as I would like or prepare for lectures I’m going to give soon which sucks, really, hate being put out of commission) and I started watching season 5 again in chronological order, and again I realize how damn great that season was.
Though the brotherly bond you miss so much, as you describe in your article, is not the same as it was in the earlier seasons, I think it is still there, perhaps even more intense than ever. The Winchesters are at odds with each other, in a most painful way, but I think that intense an emotional state is only possible when you are in truth really close. Else, you just don’t care as much.
They have always been very close, dysfunctionally so, bound by pain, loss, fear, anger, love, revenge, determination. Sam has pretty much always been the angry one. Even in Wendigo he is like a powder keg ready to explode, and he has been full of anger concerning his struggles with dad who just wasn’t ready of accept Sam as the man he was openly. Dean was the one holding the family together, true, he needed that. He didn’t have anything else, as he himself admitted in Salvation and Devil’s Trap, while Sam had a notion of another life.
They have always been very different men and with the seasons those differences became more evident. But that is also a healthy development. Symbiosis is the unhealthiest thing in terms or relationship. People need to be different. Especially in relationships. When people in relationships, be it romantic or family relationships, try to align completely, those relationships fail sooner or later. We need our individuality.
I think for some it’s painful to watch it with these brothers that we have grown to love so much, but it’s necessary. When secure in their individuality they can meet at eye level. And that’s what I would love to see. Dean not having to be the protector all the damn time, Sam not desperately trying to make amends, etc.
In the end of Fallen Idols there is that wonderful scene in which Dean acknowledges how they both didn’t know what they did – breaking the first or the last seal, how they were played by the powers that be. That’s one of such eye level moments.
I believe when the brothers return, we won’t see the bond of the earlier seasons, not in that sweet, close, adorable manner we love. But it will be there, in a changed form, but still there. I has always been there.
It will be and has to be an altered relationship. I wonder – will Sam remember at all that he has been to hell only lack remembering what happened to him there? Will he remember what he did without his soul? How complete is that form of amnesia Death has given him? How will Dean look at his brother knowing what he was capable of without his soul? How will it sit with him to know from personal experience how horrifically Sam must have suffered down there?
From what we know about the brothers and their mental state, their journey will continue to be a painful one, I reckon. Anything else would be illogical and weird, to my mind. I know I will not like those pains that will undoubtedly crawl up my spine, but I am pretty sure that I will like the show on that kind of grown up level very much.
And I do hope you will find that spark again, Elle2, too. And be able to have the fun you used to have watching the show. Because, it still is for me the best tv show out there. Love, Jas
Hello Elle2.
I came to this site during the first week of April 2010 (gosh can’t believe it is only 9 month). Something that stuck out for me from the beginning were your articles. I loved them. Still think that article you posted only a few hours after Swan Song aired is on of your best.
But then came Season 6. And right from the beginning I had the feeling when I read your articles that you and your few of the show changed. It always had a touch of negativity to me. As if you decided from the beginning to find flaws. And by approx. end October early November I acctually had to force myself to read your articles. Somehow I had the feeling like you tried to spoil my love of the show. I do have to admit though that I too have my problems with Season 6 but it sure is far from any dislike. Over the years I learned that you just have to wait till the end of the season and then judge on the storyline.
I startd watching SPN when it aired here in Germany. And from week to week I couldn’t wait how the story developed, how the bond between the brothers is tightened and I sure suffered with them when they driffted appart. It has happened since day one. One of my worst experiences was when Dean decided to give in to Michael. For me he pushed Sam so far away that it couldn’t be any further. It was like he didn’t love his brother anymore. What I want to say with this is, it has always been going on and it is part of the show that one brother pushs the other away while the otherone is working on getting them back together. So no, lovy dovy brothers isn’t always happening.
If you watched the Bonus on the Season 5 DVD you will hear Jensen and Jared say that it is part of the show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iho-nTS5qY&feature=related
right around the 9th minute.
I might add that somehow that driffting appart and getting back together is part of what makes that show so interesting for me and I can’t wait how the writers are going to ment it this time.
Wow I just added the link and when my comment showed up here suddenly the vid showed up. Nice surprise Alice
Hi, spacekids, Jas and Yirabah,
Yeah, I’ve been giving it some thought and I’m back to the waiting and seeing which is the same as I had been in seasons past and yet quite different as I don’t have the confidence in the future of the show for my tastes as I used to. And always remember, just because something changes that doesn’t suit my particular tastes doesn’t mean it’s ‘bad’, just means I no longer enjoy it.
Yirabah, your post is exactly the reason why I don’t intend to do anymore writing about the show unless I absolutely feel the love. I’ve reread many of my earlier articles and I never felt a hint of negativity in them and yet in this season I definitely feel the change and I don’t like it. I don’t want to write the kind of articles that cause those who are enjoying the show to stop and say, ‘whoa, now that I’ve read this now I am concerned or now I am frustrated or now I am disappointed.’ That’s never been the type of writer that I have been and it is one I found myself becoming to a greater degree this season.
I’ll never worry about pointing out a nit pick here and there, ’tis only fair if you’re going to gush that there be times that you don’t gush but actually critique but it’s usaully, like in Weekend at Bobby’s, with the realization that some things are worth hand waving at. And I think you hit the timeline on the head of where this season started to go off track for me and it is right around episode 5 and 6 where I still found joy but it was becoming harder.
Anyway, I’ll be watching but I think my writing days are on hold for awhile because the last thing I ever want is for anyone to ‘force’ themselves to read my stuff, especially if that means that they’re losing some of their joy in the process.
Hi Elle2
When it comes to the brotherly bond/relationship I’m with you, to me it is the heart and soul of the show.
After watching the relationship deteriorate throughout seasons 4 and 5 and then to finally see them come together and support each other in Swan Song, I was so thrilled. Of couse I was also heart broken over Sam’s fate and Dean having to go on without Sam.
However ‘The Power of Love’ had saved the world!
I was so excited for season 6 to see the brothers back. I in no way ever expected them to be the same as in season 1-3, but after Swan Song I did expect to see two grown men working and respecting each other as an equal team. So yes I was disappointed when they had the relationship being broken apart again for the third season in a row.
However with Sam being reunited with his soul I am hopeful that this part of the storyline has now been put to rest. I know we’re still in for a bumpy ride and that there are going to be some very tense and dramatic moments, but as long as they can work it out and standby each other, I will be content.
This show is much like reading a series of books. Each season chronicling the continuing adventures of Sam and Dean. And with reading any book you need to finish each volume to get the full impact and understanding of the story.
And like any book or TV show we take our chances that we will either enjoy what is put in front of us or hate it. The bottom line is it not our story to tell, it never was. All we can do is either continue to read/watch or put the book down/change the channel. So I do understand/respect your position and decision, what ever it turns out to be. Hopefully the show will come through for you.
As for me, well…I will still be there, sticking it out and continuing to be hopeful no matter what, for I really do love this show and feel it’s still the best one out there.
One thing good about the Hellatus is it give us the chance to get some perspective.
I just wanted to comment on a couple of points. You mentioned again Dean being dismissed from his role in the apocalypse. I don’t see it that way, and I agree with your second point about Dean giving Sam the strength to wrest control from Lucifer. I’ve been doing my own rewatch recently and just got through Swan Song again last night. One of the things I was watching for was to get a better sense of Sam’s motivations – why he was driven to rage and what made him want to run away from his family. I noted Lucifer’s comments to Sam that Sam felt like the Winchesters were more like a foster family to him than his real family. Probably because of a combination of the blood, not knowing his mother, his father being more absent than present, and Dean seeming to have a much stronger bond with his father, Sam always felt a disassociation with his family – with the exception of his relationship with Dean. Lucifer played on that and defeated Sam’s spirit (the bloody massacre of the Sam’s demons when Lucifer had Sam’s body). It was Dean’s stubbornness in showing up on the battlefield and a reminder to Sam that their relationship was real that brought Sam back.
Which brings me to Dean. Dean started the apocolypse by contributing to the first seal being broken. He was told he was the only one who could end it. The apocalypse was nothing more than a continuation of the old roles – good brother vs. rebellious brother, or battle to the death between brothers. Dean stopped it by not giving up on Sam and backing him to the end and breaking the cycle. Becoming Michael’s vessel and joining in the fight wouldn’t have stopped it. So Dean played his true role and stopped not only the apocalypse the the alternate reality of Lucifer taking over Sam and spreading the Croatian virus.
I’ve also struggled with the first half this season because I can’t watch FakeSam. I love the real Sam and can’t buy this as a substitution of evolution of the character. I realized though that it’s not the angst or the conflict between brothers that I have a problem with. If the conflict feels real, I say let it play out. The problem is that this just isn’t Sam. I have a feeling we’re not done with the demon blood effects/Sam-turning-into-a-monster theme, and we still don’t have answers on what happened to Sam in the last year. When we get more answers, it might cause me to view the first half the season differently. I’m excitedly anticipating the return of the series because hopefully we’ll have Sam – angst and flaws and all – back, and the brothers, while they may still have conflicts, will get some of their bond back. I’m looking forward to see how their relationship continues to grow and evolve with a more adult Sam, and with Dean having gone through a different type of character journey. Plus, we might have some cool monster battles.
Happy New Year Elle2.
I have been with SUPERNATURAL from the beginning with ‘Pilot’, and in that first episode we see that even though they have been apart for three years, there is still a strong bond between them.
Even at the worst of times, namely ‘Lucifer Rising’, we see that bond is still there, maybe a little threadbare, but still hanging on. Dean’s message to Sam was a lifeline and if Sam had heard that message instead of the false one, I think that Sam would have told Ruby to take a walk, and he would have gone to Dean’s side. Sam’s face when he heard that pack of lies spoke volumes of how he needed some love from Dean, and when it wasn’t there he turned to the nearest person and that was the b@@@h.
As for Dean’s ‘special powers’, I think there are none. I agree that he was able to kill Leah because at that moment he had convinced himself that saying ‘yes’ to Michael was a done deal. It wasn’t until he was faced with the dying faces of Sam and Adam, that he realized that he was wrong. As for killing Zach, agree with you also on that, it’s not the person that can kill an angel, it is the weapon. The light in Dean’s eyes was the reflection of the grace of Zach dying.
I have always held out the hope that Sam took the amulet out of the garbage. It is wrapped up in tissue and stuffed in the bottom of his bag. The Soulless One left it there because he couldn’t care about it, and it is awaiting the right moment for the newly souled Sammy to present to Dean.
Sam has his soul back ( 😀 ), with that problem now solved, Sam is going to need Dean to help him come to grips with what he has done in the one and a half years he was without his soul. Dean is now going to be more like the Dean that we know and love (hopefully), for the simple fact that he has his Sammy back and he no longer has to sleep with one eye open.
The relationship between Sam and Dean, thanks to the Soulless One, has hit rockbottom. I’m not looking for their bond to be as strong as it was in season one, but it should be back at season three level.
Great article!
I just wanted to comment on the issue of the brothers; one pulling away at the same time as the other one is trying to reconnect.. isn’t that the way family really works? I know for my family it is.. maybe they are trying to mirror that aspect of real life in the storyline of the show.
There are the rare moments when everyone is in alignment.. where everyone feels at peace, happy and loved by their loved ones.. but as life repeatedly shows us those are few and far between.. because life (and sh*t) happens.. So maybe this is a blessing in disguise because if the brothers were both pulling away at the same time.. then neither one of them would be able to fight for each other and their familial bond.. and at that point it would break.. maybe forever.. are at least be fractured beyond repair..
Instead what we get is when one brother is down and (seemingly) out the other is there to pick them back up again.. without this tug and pull wouldn’t we all be alone and left with no one to pick us back up when we need it the most? Just a thought.. Wink
Although I must admit this season has been bleak but I have always found comfort in this show for not being afraid to show how hard life really is.. admittedly in an ironic demon-ridden world.. but the parallels have always rung true to me..
The darkness of the beginning of this season, just has me waiting for the light.. because it is true what they say .. it is always darkest before dawn (literally and metaphorically..)
Rae
Just to quote you…
“But now in Season 6 we are presented with a shared experience, even as it was shared apart, the fallout of which has the potential to bring the brothers together in a new emotional way that they’ve never had before. Both brothers went to hell and both were brought out of hell, both brothers now have this ultimate horror that is forever emblazoned on their psyche’s and by sharing their experiences and seeking support from each other they can (and hopefully will, provided the writers choose this path) have a greater respect and understanding for the other.
I’m very hopeful that this course is what the writers have planned.”
I HOPE SO TOO!!!! I hope this is the course they take!
“…as long as the brothers are together, growing and strengthening their bond (and it doesn’t have to be sunshine and unicorns all the time but no more lies and tearing apart), then I say, ‘bring it!’”
Oh god exactly! That’s it! As long as Sam and Dean are together, working together and have their bond. I really don’t care about much else…stories can go where they like as long as ther is NO more ripping Sam and Dean apart.
“Maybe the future holds that the amulet will return, don’t know. I’d like it to return though. I do think it was entirely honoring of the story and the revelations of Dark Side of the Moon that Dean dropped it into the trashcan (sob!) and similarly maintain that Sam gave Dean a much greater gift in Point of No Return with his complete faith in Dean that when push shoves he’d do the right thing (and he did). Still, it does represent the bond and at this point, with that bond so frayed after many seasons I’d like the writers to bring back the amulet if for no other reason than as a physical reminder to them (the writers) that they need to stop tampering with the heartbeat of the show (for it’s on life support right now, the heartbeat that is, not the show).”
AGREE!!!!! THE AMULET HAS TO COME BACK. Their bond has to be restored and the amulet needs to come back. And Sam and Dean’s bond, brotherly love IS the show…so I really wish they’d leave it alone!
I still think that the brotherly bond is there, always has been. Would they really have suffered that much if it had been severed? No way. Even when they were apart, they were close in their souls. It was painful for us viewers to watch how they shoved each other away or left the other to pursue what they thought was right and necessary, but they never stopped loving each other.
Sometimes you love people (in particular family) a lot, but there are times you don’t really like them. You get mad at them. You want to slap them. But the love is still there, fueling all the emotions there. I’d like to second Karen’s and Rae’s posts here. This show has never shown us a candy wrapped life. It’s just as tough as real life is. And I love that realistic aspect about it (within all the supernatural riff raff). The reality of relationships.
I have never seen anything else than the story of two brothers – unbearingly close to each other, fighting for each other, for themselves, for ‘us’ (the planet, ahem).
They don’t need that amulet to be reminded of that. More importantly – they can do it without that thingy. It’s only a thing after all, they don’t need it to have a bond. Too much of attachment is more imprisonment than liberty.
If it comes back (which I don’t believe), okay, but I don’t really care about such exterior things with the Winchesters. It’s what I see in their eyes and hear in their voices that counts for me.
Cheers, Jas
Happy New Year, chaps.
I’m with Jas and the others … The feeling’s still there, because that’s what family boils down to, without it you would just shove your keys through the letterbox and leave.
I’m getting this first-hand at the moment as my Sweetie’s family patriarch died just before Christmas and the whole lot of them have been fighting like cats in a bag ever since. The funeral made The Battle Of Five Armies look tame, but even after all the bad stuff that’s been flying around only one daughter actually stayed away … It could just be none of the others could bear the thought of anyone else getting the last word but I’m going with the notion of Family trumping all, even if it did end in bloody noses by closing time.
I hope the rest of the season rekindles your ardour, elle2, I had a bit of a wobble several episode in but I’m back with the Yays now … Maybe we all just need a few MOTW episodes to settle us back in. I know I could do with a nice bit of escapist slayery and sarcasm right about now.
Suze, hey, dear, sorry to hear about your Christmas time! You need to look at the New Year’s resolutions of the guys. There’s something you will love, promise, and you will find a huge smile in your face…
:-), Jas
I totally agree that the show is essentially about the brotherly bond, but just that is the reason for the authors showing us so much problems and distances and misunderstandings between the two brothers.
I mean: when we read or watch a “love story”, the plot revolve about the relationship between the two members of the couple: it put it to test, it stretch and strain it, it put obstacles on its path, it put it in danger, from outside as well as from inside the couple, and frm inside the two single members (jealousy, misunderstandings, fights, differences in ends and scopes…). Only when the relationship show itself able to cope with all this, go on and evolve through it all, it show itslef really valuable and worth of all the pains and troubles the two members went through.
The brotherly relationship between Sam and Dean is not different. The show never was about two brothers *loving each other* and hunting monsters, and the dangers they went through never were only for their physycal well being: the show was about how these dangers and monsters and events adn choices affected their relationship, how their relationship coped with all the s**t of their lives. Is a “love story”, in a sense: the story of a brotherly love, with all its difficulties and troubles and ups-and-downs and compromises and complex dynamics and hard acceptance of the differences.
I can understand that this can be very, very painful and stressful for us to watch. It’s frustrating, and sometimes I would take them by the ears and give them a good shake and tell them to wake up and stop being childish or pretendig it’s all right or telling lies. Sometimes I miss the warmth and the affection, the wholehearted trust of the good times. But that’s because I’m emotionally involved with these two, because I woant them to be happy.
But from an outside point of view, judging just the dramatic effect and the complexity of the plot, the credibility of the story, of the characters and of their behaviour, that’s exactly what this story should be.
The brotherly bond & the chemistry of Jensen & Jared is what originally hooked me on the show & what keeps me so devotedly watching even now. I’ll be there, in good times & in bad, whether I’m happy with the storyline or not, because the bond is still there, no matter how tenuous it seems at times. That is the meaning of family for me. However, I am really ready to see that bond affirmed & strengthened in the remainder of this season!
(Edited by Alice). Thanks unbelievable, you just gave me another rule to post for the site. NO BASELESS ACCUSATIONS. Since when have I ever spoken out against elle2 and her opinions, or anyone who writes for this site? You have no proof. Thanks for showing us your immaturity and disrespecting everyone here. Don’t come back again.
Hi Elle2,
Great article- you’ve articulated your thoughts and feelings on season 6 really well. I agree that the season has to be taken as a whole – as it’s necessary to see the endgame to understand the steps that were taken to get there.
I know that season 6 has been quite disappointing for people and hope the second half of the season is more inspiring. Personally, I’m enjoying season 6, but that said, I took a break from analysing, writing, etc. and went back to just watching like in the early days. I don’t know if that made the difference for me – but season six is interesting to me. I really hope the rest of the season course-corrects the brotherly relationship for you, Elle2!
@unbelievable – first of all, you’re comments are in no way constructive. Secondly, we all have a variety of opinions here at the WFB and Elle2 hasn’t been “reprogramed” because she’s taking a second (third, fourth, etc). look at the show and holding off on making a final judgement call. The article clearly states there are issues to be had with the first half of season 6, but that Elle2 is willing to give the second half a chance.
@unbelieveable
I don’t normally respond to post like yours as I find the vileness not worth even a moment of my time or thoughts, but I’m afraid curiosity has caught me on this.
I really truly wonder why someone would put any effort or time to a site that they obviously dislike.
Why waist any of your time to read and make comments on a site that you believe everyone that is associated with it, is a “ brainless waveâ€.
Is this how you get your kicks? Are you just trying to stir up trouble because you have nothing better to do?
Do you get your jollies going to various sites and laying insults to people, just because they don’t see things the way you do?
Are you even old enough to be going to these sites?
Is this really your life?
If it is, then I truly feel sorry for you, because to me it’s not much of a life.
Sorry Alice and Elle2 if I stepped out of line, but this really p*ssed me off.
Karen,I second your post. And thanks Elle for speaking up, too.
Unbelievable, you are out of line. Your lack of civility does you no credit.
Sorry to see you’ve had a change of heart. Did you come to that decision on your own or did you have “help”?
That was a rhetorical question- I don’t expect you to answer honestly.
(From Alice – please avoid assumptions about the nature of the comments in this post. Donna L had another post that explains this much better but our touchy commenting system lost it. She explains it better further down).
Elle2 – I am one of the fans who agreed with your previous article. I continue to be rather disappointed by this season but I’m still very interested in the brothers’ journey, so I hope the show has some great stuff in store for both brothers in the 2nd half of the season.
@ Elle2: “Now, about my other issue regarding Dean being summarily dismissed from the storyline that was built up for him in Season 4 and Season 5, well, yeah, he basically was dismissed and his role was given to Adam, in part. I know some don’t see that but I believe it is there clearly and it is there because Season 6 became a reality.â€
Yes I absolutely agree with this. I think Dean’s storyline took a big hit when the CW decided to renew the show for a 6th season even without Kripke. I do think the show meant to have both brothers take their respective vessel and save the world together. But Dean’s mytharc role was taken over by Adam and merely human Dean was left beaten on the ground while Sam saved the world all by himself (well and the help of a beam of sunlight and memory of a toy soldier…). IMO the writing absolutely failed Dean in Swan Song.
@ Elle 2: “Perhaps the future holds a reveal that Dean has ‘special’ powers as well.â€
Wouldn’t that be great?! Sam has been given his own post-hell storyline and equally maybe Dean could be given his own special powers storyline? As you mentioned, there were many hints last season of Dean potentially being something special, but they too were dropped along with Dean’s mytharc role. But with the way this season is going – focused on the importance of SAM’S soul – I truly doubt that Dean will be given a storyline other than as big-brother/protector of newly re-soulled Sam. They seem to have dropped the Lisa and Ben storyline already so yeah, IDK.
I do also love the brotherly dynamic and miss the brotherly bond. The problem I have is that the show has tended to sacrifice giving Dean his own unique and important role [as Sam has had — being the one with special powers / grand destiny / target of YED / boy king / Lucifer’s vessel / etc.] in order for Dean to be the supporter to Sam’s storyline.
And that’s what they have done this season as well, by having robo!Sam not want his soul back and making DEAN responsible for re-soulling robo!Sam against his will(along with approving of the wall in Sam’s head).
So now again Dean’s role is to watch out for Sam. But of course Sam is an adult who will naturally have his own ideas about what he does, if he does want to remember and knowing Sam, I’m sure he does.
And Dean, well, how is he supposed to deal with (independent/adult!) Sam wanting to access memories that Dean fears might destroy the wall? Dean knows he has to be very careful because who knows what will cause cracks in the wall? Dean can’t just ask Sam to talk to him and remember things because those memories might trigger something bad. But I’m sure Sam will want to remember and want to figure things out.
So while Sam’s storyline is about his wall and maybe recovering some memories or discovering all the things he did as robo!Sam — all of it about self-reflection and character growth — Dean’s storyline seems to only involve providing support or (worse) conflict to Sam in support of *Sam’s* storyline.
And this is the problem I have with the writers not giving Dean any other substantial storyline other than as Sam’s protector. Dean’s “role†in the brotherly dynamic is to protect Sam but Sam’s role is to exercise his independence and tell Dean that he wants to be treated as an adult.
So I think this is why a lot of fans want Dean to have some focus or significance to the storyline other than *only* Sam. Not that Dean shouldn’t also take care of Sam, but making that Dean’s ONLY importance to the story is quite unfair.
I think both characters have grown beyond their childhood roles. But while the writers allow Sam to criticize Dean for his over-protective nature, they don’t allow Dean the same respect. I still think it was completely unfair that the writers made Dean apologize to Sam in Fallen Idols for playing the protective big-brother role he was given while they allowed Sam to use that as an excuse for his actions with Ruby. *sigh*
Anyway, yes I agree, I’d love to see the brotherly bond return as well. But only if the show stops blaming Dean for the problems in the relationship and also allows him to use the strengths of his *humanity* (since he doesn’t have special powers of his own) to be the kick-ass hunter we know that he is.
No more getting beaten to a pulp and lying on the ground will the other super-powered and supernatural entities get all the action. Dean may not have any special powers but he is a great hunter — if the show would just promote that aspect of Dean once again, I would be extremely happy.
Sorry for the length but yeah, I really do hope Dean is given something substantial of his own the 2nd half of the season.
(From Alice – Hey Jas, no worries, her comment was a bit of a misunderstanding. It seems her original post to go along with that was eaten. Everything is cool with this now.)
I agree with Karen, if you don’t like this site and the articles, then why are you here? Futhermore, your trash talk doesn’t belong here. Alice wrote an article about etiquette and WFB, maybe she should present it again for those who may have missed it the first time.
I’m not as easily convinced of the “brotherly bond” as you are Elle2 and I agreed with your previous article. I’m only sorry you no longer have the strength of your previous convictions since the gut instinct often is the right call. For my part, if I don’t see some signs that Sam loves and respects Dean and if Misha Collins isn’t included in the season 7 cast (assuming the show is renewed) I won’t be bothering to watch any more. I will tune out earlier than that if Dean continues to be demoted back to the chauffeur and Sam’s Hell ordeal continues to be presented as worse.
I guess people are not allowed to change their minds.
Cody B, you really think that all Dean has done for the first eleven episodes of season six is drive the car???
Elle2, my dear, you should write what you want to write.
No one has a gun pointed at their head to read every article here at WFB. You read what you want PERIOD END OF STORY.
Elle2, don’t let some idjits spoil your fun.
I’ll say it clear: if Dean should get some “special powers” and become a superhero, I will quit watching the show. And I would have quitted if Dean would have become Michael’s vessel. I would feel cheated.
Yes, Sam had “superpowers” but they were (and were ALWAYS portrayed as) EVIL. Dangerous, at least. They weren’t his luck, they were his CURSE, his DISEASE. He was “the special one”, yes, but this was a consequence of a devilish plot and a feed for his pride, that led him close to perdition. So really I don’t understand why someone still think that Dean too should become like Sam. He was the one to “keep human” his brother, just because he was human, almost too human. If he wasn’t, what would become of Sam?
It’s a long time that I haven’t been appealed by “the chosen ones”, the “special ones”, “the ones with the lighning on their brow”.In fact, I’m tired and sick of them. Action, fantasy and sci-fi movies are FULL of them, we really don’t need another one.
I want to see the world saved by a common man, just BECAUSE he’s common. Not gaining some special role or special (super)powers, not becoming some sort of “mythical, cosmic hero”. I don’t need to delegate my own struggle for freedom or survival or justice to some sort of “watchman” or “messiah”. I want to watch the struggles of someone like me, little, helpless, sometimes hopeless, full of faults and falls, just with a bigger heart and courage (and stubborness!) than mine.
I can’t find inspiration in a superhero: he would be too different from me, too stronger than me. It’s so easy to save the world when you are a semi-god… or an angel. Too easy, in fact. I find nothing touching in such a story. Nothing I can relate to. I’m human, and I LOVE to be human, with all the weakness and limits and faults and pain that come with that (“I will take the pain ad the guilt and I will take even Sam as he is”).
So I couldn’t suffer if Dean would have said “yes”. It would be a betrayal of ALL he (and I) believed in: humanity, simplicity, the inner strenght of human beings, the strenght of the familiar bonds, the free will and the faith in being able to change our own future.
Not saying that probably, exactly like Sam with Lucifer, he couldn’t control Michael, so they will end up battling each other and destroying Earth. Don’t forget that, if it wouldn’t for Dean’s presence and his obstinate will to support his brother despite all, Sam would NEVER be able to gain control over Lucifer. If Dean too would be reduced to a meatsuit, who could have been there to help Sam? WHO would have saved the world?
So it WAS Dean who saved the world and ended the Apocalypse, after all… Dean and Sam, together as brothers and human beings. BECAUSE they were brothers and human beings. Really I don’t know what more to ask for.
Alice, I never once mentioned you in either my first or second post, which you saw fit to delete immediately. It is interesting that you immediately jumped to the conclusion I was accusing you of something when I was actually accusing a small element of the fandom of having a brutish and intimidating mob mentality.
I stand by my original position that any journalist should stand by their opinion, even if it is unpopular, and Elle2 has said herself that from now on she will only post the positive, which smacks of intimitdation from some quarter to me.
I want to read fairly weighed, honest criticism, not pandering to a vocal minority so I guess your website is not for me.
“For my part, if I don’t see some signs that Sam loves and respects Dean and if Misha Collins isn’t included in the season 7 cast (assuming the show is renewed) I won’t be bothering to watch any more. I will tune out earlier than that if Dean continues to be demoted back to the chauffeur and Sam’s Hell ordeal continues to be presented as worse.”
I agree with this. What’s so great about being human if Dean is mocked for not strong enough, if I have to hear Sam again complain about Dean not being good enough?
“I want to see the world saved by a common man, just BECAUSE he’s common.”
Gee, I’d like this too but it’s NOT WHAT HAPPENED. And I’m not expecting it for this season either.
I also wish you’d stuck by your convictions, elle2, but if you feel more comfortable only focusing on the brotherly bond, so be it. Whatever your opinion is, that’s what it is.
As for myself, I still feel that Dean has been lacking in a well defined storyline this season and even if I go with the idea that retrieving Sam’s soul was his storyline, what now? Sam still has a big storyline for the rest of the season and Dean really doesn’t have anything more concrete than a couple of vague words from Death. I just hope things turn around and start coming together better after the hiatus.
You posted some very nice sentiments, Brynhild, and I agree with much of what you said. For a lot of us (myself included), it’s the show which is not celebrating the power of the everyman, which is fanboying/fangirling Sam’s powers and Chosen One status, which is letting Sam’s special storylines drive the plot time and time again. For example, I was okay with Dean saying “no” as long as it actually meant something. With Adam jumping right on in to pick up the slack, from a practical sense, Dean’s refusal apparently meant jack squat to Michael. And that, to me, was wrong.
I just want Dean’s status as humanity’s avatar as aggressively valued, recognized, and utilized as Sam’s supernatural status.
“So it WAS Dean who saved the world and ended the Apocalypse, after all… Dean and Sam, together as brothers and human beings. BECAUSE they were brothers and human beings. Really I don’t know what more to ask for.”
My problem with seeing it that way is this: if I’m failing in school and my parents call me up to give me a great pep talk and remind me of their undying love/support/faith in me, it might be the only thing that could pull me out of my funk. But at the end of the day, no matter how much moral support they gave me, I was the one who overcame what was holding me back and aced my classes, not them. I know Dean helped but to me, his contribution wasn’t the same as Sam actually doing all the heavy lifting. I still admire Dean for his courage, his devotion to Sam, his heroism in refusing to give up; but seeing him as an equal partner to Sam in saving the world….not so much.
And as for Dean’s time in Hell, I can wank that it doesn’t matter who served more, who suffered more, etc. But again, it’s the show itself which has set up the comparison and even had Dean specifically point out that Sam would make his own time in Hell seem insignificant (not to mention how so many other characters have been sympathizing with how horrible Sam was treated, while when Dean came back, he barely got any sympathy from anyone.) If the writers had just left the brothers’ experiences as separate incidences and not compared them, that would have been great. The way they handled it so far, though, does make it canon that Sam has suffered more than anyone else ever in the history of creation-except for Adam, maybe-and that, imo, does minimize Dean’s time in Hell/PTSD storyline.
I completely agree with your last paragraph Lola. It is the writers themselves that set up the vs. stuff between the brothers so it is not surprising when the fans pick sides. Since I usually feel like the writers are on Sam’s side, I tend to be more sympathetic to Dean. Guess I’m just contrary that way.
Elle2, I appreciated your original article though I didn’t comment on it, although now I wish I had. But if you have genuinely figured out a way to feel better about the show, then I’m glad for you.
However, I can’t say I’ve reached that point yet so I think will sit out the rest of the season because quite frankly, I have lost interest in the brotherly bond the way it has been portrayed these last three years with Dean primarily doing all the giving.
If I hear that things have been balanced out somewhat, then perhaps I will catch up over the summer. But until then, I am just as happy to watch Fringe which treats all its characters respectfully and has a much more intriguing mytharc in my opinion.
I actually like Elle’s first column better. And honestly, nothing that’s happened since has really changed things. Half a season was devoted to having Dean creeped out and mistreated by Sam. Then he has to pretend that being vamped and nearly killing Lisa & Ben never happened in order to save some relationship that he has to hold more important than his own life? Come on!
Tell me something: if Dean wasn’t there, Sam would have been able to save the world? WOuld have he been so strong to take control on Lucifer? The Apocalypse would have stopped?
If I’m trying to pull someone out of water to save him from drowning, and I’m slipping off the shore or the boat, and someone grab me tight and hold me enough for me to pull the other on the shore or the boat.. WHO was who saved the drowning person? Me? My friend? Or both of us?
To me this looks like an absurd hostage situation, actually.
Fan: Show, if you do what I want, then I will watch you. If not, you have betrayed me. You have betrayed the brothers and you have made one brother more important than the other!
Show: No, I have done no such thing!
Fan: Yes, you have, and I will yell it from the rooftops that you betrayed Dean and Sam was your favourite all the time.
Show: You must have been watching a different show.
Fan: I have evidence!
Show: Subjective, filled-with-emotion notions are not evidence. They are opinions.
Fan: I don’t believe you!
Show: we all choose what to believe.
Fan: Bring back the show as it was and then I might watch it.
Show: Bye, then.
Why not judge the season after it is completed? It will fall into place. Have faith. Then, perhaps, we can have fun watching and discussing it without getting into a Sam vs. Dean debate again. It looks to me, as if it keeps boiling down to this. And for the life of me, I can’t find it in the show. It would have never occurred to me that one brother might be more important/more heroic than the other.
Remind yourselves of the love you (once) had for the show. It might still be there, that spark, don’t you think? Jas
“Tell me something: if Dean wasn’t there, Sam would have been able to save the world? WOuld have he been so strong to take control on Lucifer? The Apocalypse would have stopped?
If I’m trying to pull someone out of water to save him from drowning, and I’m slipping off the shore or the boat, and someone grab me tight and hold me enough for me to pull the other on the shore or the boat.. WHO was who saved the drowning person? Me? My friend? Or both of us?”
I didn’t say that Dean didn’t play a necessary role; only that it wasn’t an equal one. I’m not trying to negate the value of what Dean did. But to me, it wasn’t quite as active or purposeful of a role as the drowning example you mentioned.
And normally, I wouldn’t care who does what. Both brothers are heroes and I’m cool with them taking turns. But to cap off the show’s epic five year apocalyptic storyline and a two year storyline for Dean with his sole contribution was to stand on the sidelines (especially since it was the Impala, the toy soldier and Sam’s memories that were shown to be the actual triggers for Sam to regain control, not Dean’s voice or battered face) just wasn’t emotionally satisfying FOR ME. It played to the brotherly bond to please fans but in terms of good storytelling, putting a lead character into a secondary character supportive position didn’t quite cut it FOR ME. Other folks disagree and that’s fine. A person’s opinion is a person’s opinion.
Have faith? It’s not a religion. It’s a product.
I just don’t believe that if it was Dean beating Sam’s face in, becoming the one true vessel for Michael while Adam was the temp vessel for Lucifer and closed Hell all by himself that Sam fans would nod and go “Well that’s a perfectly equal role for Sam and it’s just a great win for humanity and a wonderful learning experience.”
Telling me to be satisfied while knowing that the person telling me to be satisfied would’ve howled and howled if that happened to THEIR guy just makes me roll my eyes. Just please, don’t tell me to be happy unless you’re willing to say on print that you would be perfect swap in their roles, especially terms of activity.
I didn’t save the body of my original post so I’ll just say this- another hot button blogger has admitted to receiving death threats concerning his less than complimentary rambling about Jared Padalecki and this is what I was referring to.
I don’t have access to Elle2’s email obviously, so for her to post this article where she states she will from now on only post the positives immediately leads me to believe she’s been bullied and intimidated in a similar fashion by the fanatical fringe of this fandom that is such an embarrassment to the rest of us.
It’s too bad some fans feel the need to defend their favorite in such an extreme way but I also don’t feel a journalist should back away from their own opinion because of it.
I was thinking about the whole brotherly relationship thing when I got distracted by some comments that I felt compelled to respond to.
Lola, you used the example of aceing classes as a metaphor to show the impact you felt that Dean had on Sam in relation to the Apocalypse. However, by using that I feel you severely diminished the input of others in your (hypothetical) success.
In relation to aceing of classes, may I ask what role your teacher played in helping you succeed? Did your parents support you fully, help you out where they could with your homework etc, get you additional tutoring if needed, give you everything you needed in order to succeed and prepare you as best they could? What about your friends, did they help you? Did you ever work together; have study sessions, swop ideas or notes? Did you ever use a podcast, the internet, the library etc? All these would inevitably have helped you to ace your classes.
Now compare all of these to the Apocalypse situation. You might think that Sam was the one who stopped the Apocalypse but he certainly didn’t do it alone. He couldn’t have done it alone. Were it not for Dean; who Dean is, what he is, how he is, what he’s done, then we would, at this very moment be looking at a very bleak future involving an eternity of being poked with red hot pokers! Were it not for Dean, I think Sam would have turned years ago. Sam said he spent his entire life looking up to his big brother, and trying to be just like him and he was, all the way up to the very end. Sam emulated Dean by jumping into the Pit, just as Dean had done in the past. Sam would never have been able to jump had Dean not led the way.
Also, Sam might be the ‘face’ of the guy who stopped the Apocalypse, but he was also the ‘face’ of the guy who started it so I find the ending fitting. Some people might think that Dean’s role was diminished because he didn’t score the ‘winning goal’ on match day as it were, but I certainly don’t.
All this talk is about ‘Team Winchester’ so let’s use a sports analogy. On Team Winchester, Sam is full forward. However, what good is a full forward if the midfield isn’t winning ball and carrying it forward. What good is midfield if the defense isn’t clearing ball? What good is a defense if the goalkeeper keeps letting in goals? It’s a team for a reason. You take out one element, the rest is redundant.
On the Apocalypse Express newspaper, I’d imagine the match report on Team Winchester v Team Destiny would read something like this.
‘After 5 years of momentous struggle where they struck out more often than they struck in, Team Winchester finally prevailed in the Apocalypse World Cup when they beat Team Destiny on a scoreline of 1-0.
In a match that lasted 5 years, full forward Sam Winchester finally did what his teammate (brother Dean) always knew he could do, and what the rest of us hoped he could do; he scored a goal. After 27 years of hitting them wide or scoring catastrophic own goals, he finally scored one for the team, and at just the right time.
Of course, this goal would have counted for nothing has his teammate, Dean, not been the backbone of the team for the last five years. He shored up the defense, kept the team going in times of crisis, strengthened midfield, bravely took on demonic opponents, stood tall and on many occasion, scored a few goals of his own.
For 5 years, Team Winchester have been the underdogs, now, as a team, they have collectively earned their reward.’
Sorry, Kara Knows, I genuinely don’t believe that the writers have set up the Sam v Dean stuff. At they need to do at this stage is to give a situation, and let people interpret that as they wish. It’s the viewers that gives these things weight, not the writers. The writers don’t have the power to tell you what to think, that all comes down to you. Neither have the writers written one brother more sympathetically than the other this season. Both brothers have been shown at their worst points, but again, how people interpret what is shown is down to them.
“To me this looks like an absurd hostage situation, actually…”
And yet very soon on the heels of Kripke telling us after S3 that Dean would have his own part in the myth-arc, a different segment of the fandom did this very same thing; and were rewarded for it. And Kripke can give lip-service all he wants to the thought that he was “always going to end it this way…well, not EXACTLY this way, but close…”…*rolls eyes*…we’ll truly never know, will we? And then we have McG’s comments in the 100th episode video(pertaining to this being a show that is written for the fans)to consider also. So to me, what’s good for the goose, should be good for the gander; and worth a shot if it helps these writers to consider the thought that as a CO-LEAD Dean(and Jensen) should also have a part in this story that is his and his alone; with perhaps only emotional support as the necessary ingredient from his loving brother Sam.
Oh, hello Acrobat, I would appreciate it very much if you didn’t allege meanings to my words that aren’t there. Thank you.
“Lola, you used the example of aceing classes as a metaphor to show the impact you felt that Dean had on Sam in relation to the Apocalypse. However, by using that I feel you severely diminished the input of others in your (hypothetical) success”
No, it’s true- I didn’t go into a full fledged dissertation with my example, enumerating every person who would have ever helped me throughout my life to achieve my goals. For the sake of brevity, I chose the “turning point” moment, as the discussion had likewise focused on what caused Sam to regain control of Lucifer.
And I understand your point about Sam defeating Lucifer as being a team effort. But using your football analogy, who gets the Heisman Trophy and the MVP awards? It’s not the team. And who is recognized as the one who scored the winning touchdown? Again, it’s not the team. Here too, it was Sam who did the heavy lifting, with Team Free Will giving their support, to be sure. And Dean being there was necessary, I agree-I’m not saying he didn’t play a part. But I just don’t see it as being the same as what Sam ended up doing.
It’s not about taking Sam’s big moment away. It’s true that Sam let Luci out and he felt he needed to put Luci in. I would have been thrilled if Dean’s refusal to say yes actually had meant taking Michael out of the picture completely in PONR, so that Sam could take care of Lucifer in the finale. But with Adam being a perfectly acceptable replacement vessel, it made Dean standing firm more of a symbolic gesture than anything else. If I were reading a novel where one of the two protags had a major storyline built up over many chapters, only to have a minor character jump in and take his place in the final chapter and there then being nothing much for that lead to do but cheer on the other protag, I’d feel cheated of a good payoff for my investment in that storyline. Same applies here.
And when it comes to this season, I’m still hoping for more balance as we approach the finale, so that both brothers have the opportunity to play an equally active role this time around. Not Dean in a mostly symbolic role or as the set up for the star quarterback. Not Sam’s soul holding the key to unlocking the secrets to purgatory/heaven/hell/the universe while Dean stands back in awe. Equal.
@Acrobat: actually it’s pretty funny that you said that, because, though what I really appreciate is the two brothers together (and the show as a whole), if I really really have to choose, I consider myself more of a Dean-girl. Still I AM perfectly pleased of his role as it was designed and showed. 😆
Now I’ll recall another very popular piece of fiction where the hero win and save the day just doing… nothing. REFUSING to do nothing. Hello? “The return of the Jedi”, anyone?
In there, Luke was fighting his father and he was winning. But then he realized that winning that way would mean Emperor’s victory. Or better, the Dark Side victory. So he just stop fighting. Be aware: he didn’t stop fighting *his father*, he stop *fighiting*, period. He could have turn his lightsaber on the Emperor, kill the “bad guy” and be the “action hero” we all seem to need. But he didn’t. He didn’t even try to fight with his mind, to use his Jedi powers. He just accepted the possibility, and in fact the certainty to die.
At that point he didn’t have any guarantee that his father would change his mind. He just did what he deemed right, even if that meant the Emperor’s victory, the Rebellious Fleet’s destruction and his own certain death. He threw away the lightsaber and let the Emperor beating the crap out of him (well, actually electrocuting him, but… I said that for sake of parallelism).
But this proved to be the move that saved the day. His sufferings caused his father to understand his reasons (or just to be moved by fatherly feelings), and it was *Vader* that threw the Emperor in the Pit (ops! 😉 Still NO ONE ever seemed to think that *Vader* was the “real hero”, while Luke was there “just for support”. It was Luke who “saved” his father, so it was Luke who saved the day. Period.
Don’t know why, maybe because Vader was one of the “bad guys”, so it felt strange to think of him as the “hero”. But if you stop a moment to think, it was HIM who killed the Emperor, not Luke. Luke just stood there being tortured. It weren’t Luke’s *actions* that saved the day. In fact, his *actions* (i.e. fighting his father) were what was leading him close to the Dark Side. It was his willing to sacrifice himself and his faith in his father residual “goodness” that scored the match point. And that was enough to be viewed as the “real hero”.
So ALL the training with Obi-Wan and Yoda, all that story about his destiny being “facing/fighting his father”, all what was said to us along three movies by several characters, all the powers and abilities that he in the end had developed… all that was just crap? Smoke in the eye? Just useless and fruitless? Well, yes. And no. Because they were the needed steps on his personal journey. And the final step wasn’t about “fight” anymore: it was about love, self-sacrifice and “hope against hope”. He had really understood the Light Side of the Force (the Dark Side being “anger, fear, aggression”).
So I just don’t understand why Luke can be viewed as the “hero of the day” and not Dean…
(Moved here from earlier upthread).
I know this discussion has gotten quite lively, but keep this in mind when sending comments to elle2 about the nature of her article.
Something happens in a session of debate. Opinions are given in a perspective that people have never thought of before. Also, things happen called a “cooling off” period. Can you honestly confess that you haven’t changed your mind about something…ever? If so, that’s just not human.
I have never once discussed elle2’s opinions with her, nor any of the writers. That’s because they are entitled to their own and I let them say what they want. So, instead of making baseless accusations, how about accepting that writers are allowed to see things differently and act adult about it.
“Tell me something: if Dean wasn’t there, Sam would have been able to save the world? WOuld have he been so strong to take control on Lucifer? The Apocalypse would have stopped?”
But it wasn’t Dean. It was a plastic toy soldier. I could have forgiven that finale a lot if it had actually been Dean’s pleas that reached Sam. But it wasn’t. I could also have forgiven it a lot if Dean had actually used the rings. But no: he got beaten up and then sat and watched. And I wanted more for Dean this season, but so far (imo) it hasn’t happened.
“If I were reading a novel where one of the two protags had a major storyline built up over many chapters, only to have a minor character jump in and take his place in the final chapter and there then being nothing much for that lead to do but cheer on the other protag, I’d feel cheated of a good payoff for my investment in that storyline. Same applies here.”
I agree so much with this. And Shelby, I too would like to see some emotional support coming from Sam to Dean.
“So I just don’t understand why Luke can be viewed as the “hero of the day” and not Dean…”
Because what you described is much more like unto the Sam character’s experience than Dean’s-and it’s fairly common knowledge that from the very beginning(and one of the few things I still believe that he meant and that he hasn’t gone back on, in his mind) that Kripke has likened Sam to Luke Skywalker and Dean to Han Solo(although *I* personally think that over the seasons, Dean and Sam have become more their own singular and unique type of characters than what Kripke originally envisioned-and this due more to the actors’ input into the characters than anything else). But I still feel that what you described is far more Sam than Dean-and mainly because of the powers-that “special” thing that set Sam apart from(and yes, above too, IMO)your regular, average human AKA Dean. Yes, Sam needed Dean to help him save the day, but no one else other than Sam could have done it. I don’t think it’s too much to ask or wish of these showrunners/writers that Dean/Jensen now(with probably about a season or two left to the series, and again as a supposed co-lead on this show), be given a storyline that is something only just akin to the one they gave Sam/Jared for five seasons. And that shouldn’t be too difficult for them to do, IMO, because there’s plenty of set-up material for it already. It’s only a matter of if the showrunners want to do it now. And I’m still here waiting for that, even after being fooled once about it already. And yes, I’m well aware(especially now) that I might not get what I’d like if the writers choose to not deliver on their teasers-just as I’m sure that they are now well aware of the fact that they will definitely lose some viewers in that case, too. It’s the nature of this business, and some feel that if we don’t keep reminding them of this, that they might just mistake our silence for acceptance-and that will never be the case-at least not for me-not in this.
I’d like to add one final comment.
I hope Elle2 will continue to bring up and examine the negatives whenever she sees them.
Without thoughtful, fairly weighted criticism of the type she and others like her bring into the light, the bar is lowered and mediocrity wins.
I’m guessing the Heisman trophy is like a Player of the Year thing? Okay, ask any player what they’d rather have, which they think is the more worthy; a championship medal or a POTY medal. Guaranteed, to a man, they would say championship medal because that’s what players work for, that’s the aim. If they play a team sport, individual awards are irrelevant, they work so the team can win. Everything else is secondary to that.
In relation to who gets the Heisman Award or the MVP, I would imagine the Most Valuable Player gets it. However, who says the most valuable player has to be the one who scores the most? Let’s say, for example Team A are playing Team B. Team A have 50 shots on goal and the Team B goalie saves every one of them. Team B takes one shot on goal and they score. Who won Team B that game, the guy who saved 50 or the guy who scored one?
Yeah, the goal scorer might get his picture in the paper the next day because scoring goals is glamorous. However, anybody who knows anything about football, anybody who thinks about it, knows that Team B won that game because of the goalkeeper, not the forward because if it wasn’t for the goalie, the scoreline would have been 50-1 (and let’s face it, that single goal wouldn’t have been so important then.)
Plus, Sam didn’t get an MVP, he didn’t even get rewarded! How could he have when he had taken the wrong option, wrong actions, almost every time prior to that. Like I said, he hit so many wides and so many own goals he was lucky he wasn’t substituted…. Sam might have scored the goal in the final, but he didn’t get them to the final. Without Dean, Sam wouldn’t have been within an asses roar of either.
“If I were reading a novel where one of the two protags had a major storyline built up over many chapters, only to have a minor character jump in and take his place in the final chapter and there then being nothing much for that lead to do but cheer on the other protag, I’d feel cheated of a good payoff for my investment in that storyline. Same applies here.”
That would depend on what I learned about the character up until the final chapter. Dean’s place wasn’t taken over, he cast it aside. Had Dean said ‘yes’ to Michael, I’d have felt cheated because it would have meant zero character growth on his part. He spent his whole life saying yes; to John, to Sam, to Castiel and now he was expected to say yes to Michael. I feel if Dean had said yes, he’s have been reduced to nothing more than a puppet, there to bow to the will of others.
It actually really bothers me when people only see Dean as a redundant cheerleader standing on the sideline of the Apocalypse because those who can only see that, don’t see him at all and guys, you are missing out on so much.
OR they simply have a different definition of what an active, EQUAL role is. Like I do.
What Dean got to “do” in Swan Song missed my definition by a couple thousand miles. In fact, I have read perfectly accurate summaries of the Season 5 Finale from which you couldn’t even infer the character was in the episode.
And I entirely disagree on seeing character growth in how it played out. For me, the Finale did nothing but drive home the one poisonous message that stunted Dean all his life: you only matter as Sam’s brother but as an individual you have no worth/purpose/importance whatsoever.
Of course he still had to apologize for playing that big brother role since he was apparently too clingy/bossy/overbearing. But nevertheless it is the only role he is given. And if he is made to step back from it, he needs to step right off the screen and off the show. Hence, we are right back to this being the only reason and purpose he has in Season 6.
If Sam isn’t there for Dean to revolve around, Dean has nothing to do. If Dean isn’t there, Sam has a destiny or big storyline to push forward. Not in the least bit equal in my eyes. And stunting Dean forever.
Also, it didn’t even matter that he said no, Adam swooped in and things worked out fine. The angels need not have even brought him back from hell, Adam would have always done fine. Or they could have asked Dean once and then moved on. Him saying no was pointless because he was completely exchangeable. Therefore the “storyline” about angsting on saying no was equally redundant. So what if he said no, next in line stepped up. Big whoop.
For me Season 6 is a continuation of the last few episodes of Season 5: Sam’s story (with kinda some brother dude of Sam’s, forgot his name, in it).
Enchanting Tim, I second that last paragraph of your last comment here wholeheartedly. People who see only that one side miss out on a lot, indeed. It’s sad really.
It also saddens me that it seems to always, always boil down to a Dean vs. Sam debate. This is me sincerely hoping that when the hiatus ends and the next episode airs there will be other topics to discuss.
Cheers, Jas
This thread is in dire need of humour:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-3qaZgr3GA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz_7Ggecmhg
Enjoy. 😀
“That would depend on what I learned about the character up until the final chapter. Dean’s place wasn’t taken over, he cast it aside. Had Dean said ‘yes’ to Michael, I’d have felt cheated because it would have meant zero character growth on his part. He spent his whole life saying yes; to John, to Sam, to Castiel and now he was expected to say yes to Michael. I feel if Dean had said yes, he’s have been reduced to nothing more than a puppet, there to bow to the will of others. “
I agree that from a personal standpoint, saying no was a victory for Dean and was in keeping with his character. And from a storytelling and thematic standpoint, his refusal should have also been as definitive a victory for humanity/free will but it wasn’t. Bringing in a minor character to just seamlessly pick up where Dean left off diluted what could have been a terrific message about the power of one man’s choices. It made Dean’s decision only about Dean but not a cosmic one that would have directly impacted the outcome of the conflict. That’s a huge issue I have with how this all played out. As I said earlier, had Dean’s refusal taken Michael out of the picture in PONR, Sam overpowering Lucifer in SS would have been the perfect bookend. As it stands, though, it feels like a lopsided ending not just to the season (which wouldnt’ be that big of a deal) but to a five year mytharc around which the whole show revolved. But I think this is one of those issues where we’ll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.
No, no, no, no, no (I mean, YES, these are great Jas) but someone post that ‘Always Look on the Bright Side of Life’ SPN style one that was on here before. For the love of God, SOMEONE POST THAT ‘ALWAYS LOOK ON THE BRIGHT SIDE OF LIFE’ SPN STYLE ONE THAT WAS ON HERE BEFORE!!!!! (Or tell me how to do it, step by step)
Til I cried, I laughed when I saw it. Til I fecking cried…..
Happy to oblige, dear Celt (hope this is it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgeEq2nnPrE
It’s a different one (but just as funny). There are so many happy memories associated with this show, so much good, seriously.
Right, call me nuts but at 0.45s on that video, does anyone else think that Dean is the head off Ewan McGregor, like possibly doppelganger head off him. (Ooooh, new case!)
Oh man, is it wrong to laugh at a piano squashing death cos it just feels so right. And it had suicidal teddy bear and shampoo head Dean! (For a guy with like, zero hair, Dean sure uses a lot of shampoo.)
I guessing this will be another night when I get nothing done. Ah well….
Ok Tim, wasn`t going to touch this thread with a tenfoot barge pole BUT just for you hope this works as this is the film you want
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HVgNp6AORc
Plus One
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tKKPElokaQ
Enjoy! Ju 😀
EnchantingTim, you don’t happen to be a fan of Vicar of Dibley, eh? 😉
It should have been me!!!!
Will I get into trouble for posting the `Not yet dead` as it does imply that Sam is Lancelot and Dean is Robin?
And Robin was the lesser knight and the coward who ran away instead of fighting, or maybe he just sat on the grass and watched instead eh? 😉
THAT’S IT!!! (Does my happy dance, which consists of slightly nodding my head while tensing my shoulders also Fr. Kevin on Father Ted.)
Thank you both (Big, slobbery kisses all round. Hmmm, must be Thursday for Tim!)
Seriously, how could anyone be disappointed with a show that gave us that video? They could show Lucifer and Michael levitate back up topside, have a sump wrestling match for Middle Earth while wearing togas, Ugg boots and fingerless gloves, and I’d still be happy with Supernatural after seeing that video.
‘Always look on the bright side of death, (cos you won’t be dead long on this show), and just before you draw your terminal breath (close your eyes, look sexy and sloooowly fall backwards). Lifes a piece of shit, when you look at it (It certainly is, I’ve a shack of tests to correct for tomorrow and I haven’t even looked at them yet), lifes a laugh and deaths a joke, it’s true (Just ask Gabriel). You’ll see it’s all a show (that’s back in two weeks), keep laughing as you go (cos it’s only two weeks), just remember that the last laugh is on you (well, not me obviously, cos I’m awesome)
Aaaaand…… always look on the bright side of life, always look on the bright side of life, Come on, guys, cheer up (especially you there at the back!!!), always look on the bright side of life (repeat to fade)
I’m one happy camper tonight!
Vicar of Dibley? No. (Women priests!!! Good God, what will they think of next??)
Father Ted, YES!! Seriously dude(ette), if you haven’t seen them, watch them. I’ll send you on the DVD’s.
Julie, Launcelot is indeed the brave sir knight who knew what his favourite colour was. He also slew all the guards at the Swamp Castle, (the ones that cost fifty pounds each). In his defense though, he was riding north from Camelot and he got this note, you see….
Robin is the one who soiled his armour when facing the rabbit. According to his minstrels, he’s apparently not afraid of getting his nostrils raped or his bottom burnt off.
Such brave knights they had back in those days.
Get into trouble?? Good GAWD, woman, I can’t believe you compared them to Sam and Dean. I’d find a hill and start running towards it if I were you! (Though find a hill with good reception, cos SPN is back in two weeks!)
Ok, time to get back to our regularly scheduled SPN discussion.
Apologies…
Great idea Tim
If I run to the hills they wont be able to see me as I will look really really small as I`ll be faaaaaar away right ?
That’s very true (unless you’re naturally about 2’5″!)
Just be careful they don’t take the roads in for the night…
Great idea Tim
If I run to the hills they wont be able to see me as I will look really really small as I`ll be faaaaaar away right ?
OK the WFB site Demon is after me now for being a bad girl and echoing everything I type.
I am officially scared and a need a hunters protection , PLEASE !!
“To me this looks like an absurd hostage situation, actually…”
Well that is a nasty way to put it, not to mention inaccurate since it implies an active power that I simply do no have as a fan. The only power I do have is the change the channel but that isn’t going to change the story.
It’s simple for me. I no long enjoy the show and so I will move on.
For the record, yes it is because I find the show has become claustrophobically focused on Sam who is a character I have grown to enjoy less and less over these past three seasons and nothing in the set-up of the story so far leads me to expect any changes in the second half of the season. So I would have to be a moron to continue watching the show based on faith, after the way the five year mytharc ended and this season started off.
Good grief, thinking a show is seriously marred by bad writing and Sera Gamble using the show as her own personal “Becky” fulfillment is really far from “holding something hostage.” Next thing I know is that Dean fans will be accused of having death panels and being born in a foreign country.
What’s so great about Dean being slavishly devoted to someone who can take him or leave him at the drop of a hat, someone who has stated that even a demon or a creepy grandfather with murky motives is a good Dean replacement? That makes Dean pretty much a replaceable cog in terms of the story and to one Sam Winchester.
I think the point Jas was making (and sorry if I’m way off base here, Jas!) with the “hostage situation comment” was merely that the show is what it is, and we, the fans, take from it what we will and interpret the structure, myth arc, etc. in our own, subjective ways informed by a variety of elements. Fault is found where it isn’t necessarily warranted or intended (example: the idea that it’s the writers who have set up the show to pit brother v. brother – personally, I don’t see this occuring the way some viewers insist such as storyline favourtism, etc)- the point being you can’t make everyone happy. I don’t think Jas was being nasty at all, nor was she speaking to a specific Dean or Sam fanbase, it was a comment about the fans generally as a whole.
Finally, encouraging viewers to withhold judgement until the entire picture has been painted isn’t “moronic” and frankly, as a fan who is generally satisfied with the myth arc wrap-of of the last five seasons and who will wait out, based on faith in what the writers have in store for the Winchesters, I find your commentary along those lines, Kara Knows, to be somewhat offensive.
If you don’t like the show anymore, that’s fine. You’re entitled. But it’s hardly fair to call those who will continue to watch by nasty names.
I’m with Jas – I’ve watched this show for the last 5.5 years, I’ve seen it grow to incredible heights, and so, maybe they’ve hit a rough patch in some opinions, but personally I’m not ready to write it off just yet – because I do have faith that the season might bring us something amazing before it’s done.
The `hostage situation` comment was not made in any way to be nasty, and nor was it, as has been implied here, initiated by a `Sam girl` in the eternal bickering in the tiresome Sam/Dean saga, quite the reverse.
I found this show at one of the worst times of my life and I loved it, it helped my cope, entertained me. I loved it then, and I still do. I get so much enjoyment and pleasure from watching it and from visiting this site where I have made some amazing friends. What I just do not understand on reading so many recent posts around here is why some people still watch, when they appear to find no pleasure or enjoyment at all? Or why they then feel the need to come here and tell everyone why they are watching something they are NOT enjoying? Why not just stop!
This is what I meant by the hostage situation, `change the show, or I wont watch anymore` which seems to be a lot of commentors attitudes. The point is exactly that fans do not and should not have the power to make changes, we are not writers , we are not part of the amazing creative team who work so damn hard to bring this to our screens and, while I appreciate we all have our opinions on how we think they are doing their jobs, I also think we should respect their work and, if as I have said before, no longer enjoy it, move on and view something they can enjoy as much as others enjoy this.
I know the negativity recently is deeply upsetting to some people and has actually discourared them from even reading some articles and the following comments, I thought this is supposed to be somewhere we can come to celebrate a show we love and have fun.
Oh and incidentally The `Dean Fan` who said all this was born in another country.
Elle’s right.
I’m enjoying this season now, and I was hugely dischuffed by the end of S5 – I mean jumped the shark/change the channel pissed off … So I’m glad I hung around.
There’s always going to be diferent highs and lows in the story for diferent people as we all get off on diferent elements … The bits of Swan Song that left me in a black sulk gave most other bods the warm fuzzies. I’m not complaining, just agreeing with Jas that the story goes where it goes and we can like it or lump it.
As for the whole Who’s-Got-The-Shiniest-Myth-Arc hair-pulling fandango, I’ve always seen what we’re getting as The Fall And Rise ( and fall and rise again, the boy’s a blooming yo-yo … ) Of Sam as seen through Dean’s eyes. It’s Dean who is pivotal to the viewer as he’s our point of contact with what’s happening. I’m not dissing any other characters, that’s just my take on how the thing’s presented. It’s only a competition if you make it one!
P.S Just seen the clips 😆 😆 😆 Class!
Uh-oh, I should have known that I was gonna poke the bear and that I was going to be misunderstood.
Thank you Elle and Julie for speaking up on my behalf and trying to explain my point. And yes, to me Kara Knows’ comment was offensive, too, in the way you saw it, however, since she obviously didn’t understand what I meant to say, it doesn’t affect me.
I’d like to add that I didn’t mean the writers et al are doing the ‘hostage holding’ (here’s looking at you, Acrobat and Kara Knows, and thank you very much for implying matters I haven’t said and misconstruing my metaphor). For me it’s simple: if you don’t like the show, feel free to stop watching. If you like it, continue watching.
But is it really necessary to bring the whole matter to a Sam vs. Dean debate, again? To my mind that’s what it’s been about for ages now. And I just don’t get it. I have never, ever found that one character was more important/more heroic/more caring/more whatever. But that’s just me.
I don’t enjoy this thread, really. Bye then. Jas
P.S.:I love your point, Suze – watching the whole thing through Dean’s eyes… I need to process that a bit. Feels good, though.
P.P.S.: Elle2, I am profoundly sorry about what is happening here in the thread to your article. This site used to be a safe haven once for many fans. It’s not always like that anymore these days.
If I did something to fire that up with any of my comments, I apologize to you and all the others who don’t come anymore.
Well, it’s a matter of seeing things differently, I suppose. Of seeing LIFE differently, I would venture. The whole “heroism” issue, I mean.
About the whole “SAm mytharc vs Dean mytharc” or “Sam importance to the story vs Dean importance to the story”, instead, I just don’t get it. Someone comes to the point to feel that Dean could even be ruled out without detrimenti to the story? Well, really I must be watching some kind of other show. I won’t get any further on the subject, since for me it’s just so incredible that someone can feel that watching the same episodes, with the same scripts that I’m watching, that I just can’t even argument. For me it’s just evident as the sun that that’s not true that I can’t even demostrate it. But if you feel that way… well, I’m sorry for you.
In the end all comes down to few things: watching the show make you feel good? Warm inside? Moved? Emotionally involved? Sad? Amused? Intrigued by the plot? Curious about where are they going next and how they will solve the knots or join the loose ends? Satisfied? Inspired? With a lot of (philosophical, existential, mythological, dramatic, narrative, psychological…) thoughts on your minds? Even if a bit frustrated from time to time?
If yes, keep watching. If no, quit watching. But in that case don’t think that because you don’t like it, the ones who still like it are all morons that can’t see the “reality”. They’re not, trust me.
Honestly, it’s just that simple.
Amen to that, dear Valkyrie!
;-), Jas
“So I would have to be a moron to continue watching the show based on faith, after the way the five year mytharc ended and this season started off.”
This is being taken out of context, IMO. She’s saying that she, herself, would have to be a moron to continue watching something that has made her so unhappy and frustrated and she’s leaving because of that-which is what more than a few here are actually advising her to do.
As for the whole Who’s-Got-The-Shiniest-Myth-Arc hair-pulling fandango, I’ve always seen what we’re getting as The Fall And Rise ( and fall and rise again, the boy’s a blooming yo-yo … ) Of Sam as seen through Dean’s eyes. It’s Dean who is pivotal to the viewer as he’s our point of contact with what’s happening.
That has been said often and it may be true. However it is in fact the essence of what I do find utterly diminishing and belittling to Dean’s character and not at all pivotal.
As a viewer, neither do I need nor want a stand-in for me that does nothing else on-screen than I do off-screen: viewing the story of some other great hero.
Thanks, I don’t need a middleman for this. From characters IN the story, I expect them to be interesting and exciting enough to tell me their OWN story, not someone else’s. I mean, truly what makes Sam so deserving of having his and only his story of great heroism told for the entire show? Why couldn’t they at least switch and have Sam in the sideplot of telling Dean’s story for a change?
As for why I’m still watching, that’s pretty much because I find it hard to quit something Jensen is in. If he was free for another project, I’d happily watch this and never a second more of Supernatural. And nope, in the beginning I didn’t watch solely for him but it has come to the point that I’m not interested in nor like anything else besides Dean (and occassionally Cas). You try to sell me a character and his central story too much, it has the opposite effect on me.
A story is made of more than one or two characters. In my opinion that’s not the best way to enjoy a story, moreover if you are SO SO frustrated just about the way the story treat your two favourite characters.
In my opinion, you can’t read a novel reading just the parts about your favourite character. A story is a whole, is made of charcters and plot. Sometimes is even necessary to kill a character to make the plot go on, and it doesn’t count if that character was nice or lovable and the readers were fond of him: if it’s needed for the plot or for the dramatic effectiveness, you have to kill him.
Watching the show just for Jensen… IMO, that is the best way to convince the detractors of the show that its fans are all fangirls that watch it just for the beautiful actors and nothing more. I’m very sad for this.
And with that, I quit this discussion. Everyone is seeing just what he wants to see, and I don’t find that so much interesting nor amusing. Sad, indeed.
Well, I can’t force myself to like plots or characters. Nor do I feel I should have to. The writers either sell me on it – or don’t.
And TV is not a novel. In a novel I can (and actually do) read the end first to see if I find it worth it.
>
I’m not watching for his looks, though admittedly he does it for me. I’m watching because I like him as an actor, even if I don’t always like what he acts in, i.e. the writing for him. And I still have fond memories of the great character Dean used to be and can occasionally still be if he gets to play.
It doesn’t happen often this Season so I’m not often even interested in what is going on. Ironically, the first few episodes weren’t so bad – though I couldn’t name any one as a highlight – but after 6 or so I found everything rather meh to dreadful. Not everyone has to like the soulless Sam plot and the myopic focus on it. Not everyone has to have interest for that.
As for the “brotherly bond”, for me that died in Season 5 so I’m not bothered at its state, whatever that state is. I can happily ignore everything about it.
“About the whole “Sam mytharc vs Dean mytharc” or “Sam importance to the story vs Dean importance to the story”, instead, I just don’t get it. Someone comes to the point to feel that Dean could even be ruled out without detrimenti to the story? Well, really I must be watching some kind of other show. I won’t get any further on the subject, since for me it’s just so incredible that someone can feel that watching the same episodes, with the same scripts that I’m watching, that I just can’t even argument. For me it’s just evident as the sun that that’s not true that I can’t even demostrate it. But if you feel that way… well, I’m sorry for you.”
You’re speaking from an emotional viewpoint. I believe the other poster was speaking from a more concrete, nuts and bolts type, viewpoint. And she is right in that concrete sense-what the Dean character contributes and has contributed to the story could have been accomplished by any other character on the show(which made Adam especially galling, IMO too)-this is not the case with the Sam character. He had special physical qualities/strength from receiving the demon blood as a baby that made him the only one capable of taking on Lucifer in the fictional universe of the story. I would be happy if the writers would just allow Dean to be recognized in the script and through the dialogue as having/being something(anything!) that allows him a similar type of individuality/uniqueness in the fictional universe of the story-meaning NOT being restricted to ONLY an emotional importance. The character and the actor who portrays him has earned this 10 times over, IMO, and it can easily be accomplished while maintaining the brother relationship/bond. Shoot, it would make both brothers better, stronger, and more emotionally stable/healthy individuals WITHIN their relationship AND the show would truly be made refreshed/new, as Sera Gamble spoke of her aims for it being in S6. Yes, some ARE happy with the staus quo, but clearly others are not. I am one of those.
“I’ll say it clear: if Dean should get some “special powers” and become a superhero, I will quit watching the show. And I would have quitted if Dean would have become Michael’s vessel. I would feel cheated.”
This quote from a comment on this very thread illustrates the other side of the coin concerning the “hostage situation thing”-and I find it somewhat hypocritical and easy for one to tell others to “just move on if you’re that unhappy” after one has received everything they wanted through the same means-and even if that person didn’t take an active part in it, they still reaped the benefits of others doing it. To speak of leaving/quitting the show when one is so unhappy with it IS a sort of “power” that viewers of a show like ours hold; and it’s the only semi-real power we have at our disposal to effect changes in the writing that would make us want to stay-which we all really want to do or we wouldn’t be here even blogging about it. In this fandom, as history has shown, when so many in the fandom express such unhappiness and frustration over something about the show, the writers have noticed it and done something about it. So while some may not want to hear it because well, they just don’t want to hear it…sorry, but wishing it away didn’t work in the past and I personally hope that it won’t work now. THIS site might be able to maintain it’s somewhat “exclusionary” outlook in that sense(no offense meant, as from the comments of the “regulars” that I’ve read here, that’s what’s desired by the majority here), but that doesn’t mean that the “rabble” that you try so hard to keep out is lacking legitimate grievances; and that one of “your own” has actually considered this says something to me. I rarely choose to post here. Elle2’s original article made me want to, so this article saddens me all the more as I still feel very strongly about everything she wrote of in that original article. And while I can respect that people DO change their minds about things, my thanks remain exclusively for that first article-with the caveat that no offense is intended for disliking and being disappointed in this last one.
Phew, Sasha, I’m in awe … If your day-to-day grind is pretty much the same as Dean’s how the hell do you find time to blog, what with the slayage and the soul-searching and the vampire weekends and all that. One trip round Tesco’s and I need a lie-down! Respect.
It is now my most fervent desire that, after the 28th January, the phrase ‘myth-arc’ (aka ‘story-arc’) be forever consigned to the annals of SPN history. If I never hear it again, it will be too soon.
Ok, is it agreed upon that Dean is the emotional focus of the show, and Sam is the physical focus of the show? (I think that’s the one thing people seem to agree with, that Dean is the protagonist and Sam is the antagonist.) So, it’s kind of like Dean is driving, but Sam is giving him the directions…. (God, I’m so clever!)
If that’s the case, may I just ask one thing (before I hit the bed for the night):
For those who feel that who Dean is, what he is doing at the moment etc isn’t enough; may I throw you a hypothetical situation?
Let’s say that some time in the second half of season 6 (and season 7, if God is good), Dean develops some kind of powers (he gets them in a Kinder Egg or something) and maybe he is the only one who can get into Purgatory and free all the souls or do whatever it is you have to do in Purgatory. (I don’t know, ok, I’m making this up as I go along!)
Ok, are those who want the above situation prepared to lose a whole lot of Dean in order for it to happen? If Dean gets these powers etc, if the brothers’ roles are reversed, this means that he can no longer be the ‘heart’ of the story. We will no longer see things through Dean’s eyes. He’ll no longer be the emotional resonance of the show, he’ll be a point of focus, something to be looked at, and judged. We’ll be seeing what Dean is, what he has become, and what he does, through Sam’s eyes.
We’ll see Dean taking certain courses of action, with the reasons why he took them only ever speculated on, never agreed on. There is no certainly about a character and his motivations in this sort of situation. (Remember that whole ‘Sam is a monster’ ‘He’s not a monster’ He IS a monster’ ‘He’s NOT a fecking monster’ thing we had going on a few weeks ago….) Would people be okay with this kind of doubt and ambiguity when it comes to thinking about Dean?
At the same time, would those who feel aggrieved at the lack of Sam’s character development for the past few seasons be prepared to give up the powers etc in order for more time to be focused on Sam himself; not what he can do, but who he is, what drives him, what’s moulded him into the man he is today? Would people rather see Sam, the man, ahead of Sam, the vessel etc?
People can’t have it both ways. If there is to be a role reversal, in order for Dean to be able to ‘do’ more (although I think he’s doing more than enough as it is), we will have to ‘know’ him less. In order to know Sam more, we will have to see him ‘do’ less. The guys can’t be both the protagonist AND the antagonist. They can either be the emotional drive of the story, or the physical drive of the story, not both.
So which would people rather have?
Wow! Well, I’ll have whatever you’ve just had, only with a bit less caffine … 😉
I think professional writers should be able to balance these things better and give both to each. I’ve actually seen it done and that’s all I’d like to see now.
In response to your question, Tim, yes, I’d be perfectly fine with giving up certain things because for me they’re not much of a sacrifice.
That’s the thing, going by your posts you hold value to the role of “emotional center/POV” so you’d consider it a loss. But people who don’t think that role is anything to write home about – like me – that question becomes moot. Why would I be upset about losing something I never cared for in the first place?
So maybe we’ll lose a few emo scenes, at this point, I say: good. I don’t think they have been doing the character any favours for quite some time now.
Now I have to make the caveat that usually shows managed to give both to more than one character at a time but thinking this show can’t manage that, yup, I’m all for a straight up “reversal” of what we currently have.
They can do a thousand “we explore Sam’s motives/feelings/whatever” scenes as long as all that is focused on “what is going on with Dean and how does it tie into the fate of the world”. Remember Dean gets to be the big world-saving hero moment in the end while Sam impotently lies on the ground, too. I mean, that’s part of the exchange bargain as well. 🙂
I didn`t read all comments so please forgive me, if I rewrite something.
Kripke always wanted DEAN to drive in SWAN SONG to the cemetary. He stated that in the official companion. So that wasn´t chanced for a 6th season.
In THE END we were showned what would happend if Dean hadn´t been there to help Sam to gain controll over Luzifer. Sam would have failed. So Dean and Sam saved the world. Neither one could have done it alone!
I sad it before and I´ll say it agin. Till season 5 the story was about Sam but it was shown from Deans point of view. You always knew what Dean felt, you could only guess how Sam felt. I think that was the way the show kept its balance between the two brothers.
What I never get (as a real StarWars Fan) how to compare Han Solo and Luke to Dean and Sam. I just don´t get it!
‘…..impotently lying on the ground’. This is how you saw Dean’s contribution… as ‘impotently lying on the ground’? May I ask you, Sasha, is that analysis based on Dean’s role in (a) just Swan Song or (b) on the entire Apocalypse storyline?
If it’s (a) um, is that not a little short-sighted? and if it’s (b) what about the huge role Dean played in the three seasons prior to Swan Song or was setting the wheels of the Apocalypse in motion, doing everything in his power to stop said Apocalypse (including swear allegiance to the angels, going back to the past to try to change the future, using his skills from hell to torture Alastair, aligning with demons, killing Zachariah, negotiating with Death etc) and doing everything in his power at the very end, not enough for ya??
If it’s more grand-scale actions (‘world saving hero moments’) you’re interested in, did you not consider it a grand-scale act when Dean made the deal for Sam, when he spent 40 years in hell, when he broke the first seal, when he kicked the Apocalypse off? Was being resurrected by angels, chosen to do God’s work and be Michaels vessel not grand enough?
Was Dean impotent because he chose to say ‘No’ to Zachariah, saving millions of people in the process? Did he not play enough of a part when he got Death’s ring, thereby giving Team Free Will the means to recage Lucifer AND saved Chicago (its pizza and its people) in the process? I’m sorry but I can’t deem these actions either impotent or insignificant. I think you might have done a Homer Simpson and confused ‘impotent’ with ‘important’!!
I think if the storylines were reversed, and Sam got to be just as ‘impotent’ as Dean, plus the POV, plus the character development, I dare say there’d be a lot of happy Sam fans out there!
‘Sam gets to be the big world saving hero’? While I’m sure Sams fans would be thrilled at you crediting him with that, the world was actually saved by a series of events, not one grand gesture. Everyone played a part Sam, Dean, Bobby, Jo, Castiel, Ellen, even Crowley. They all did what they could do in order to end it. It wasn’t just Sam.
You know, Sasha, you actually have changed my mind. I no longer think it’s the case that some people feel that Dean didn’t get enough to do in stopping the Apocalypse. I now think it’s a case of, no matter how much Dean does; it’s not going to be enough. People will always want him to do more. (I’m starting to feel sorry for the guy. He’s going to be knackered!)
However, is Sam considered ‘the’ hero? Personally, I don’t see him as being any more or less heroic than Dean, who willingly went to hell for his brother. I don’t think him any more heroic than Bobby who gave his soul to Crowley to help the cause, than Castiel who rebelled against the angels. I don’t consider Sam any more heroic than Jo, who died while trying to help Dean, or Ellen who chose to die so her daughter wouldn’t have to die alone. I think this is where we differ, Sasha. Heroic acts don’t have to be ‘grand-scale’ for me to consider them, or those who do them, worthy.
On an aside….. ‘Dean Winchester’ and ‘Impotent’; two words I thought (hoped…) I’d never see in the one sentence!
Again, to answer you, Tim, I’m basing my analysis on the Season 5 Finale because to me the deciding moment counts. In that case, it was the big Finale to the five year mytharc so it means a lot to me who got to do the big “world-saving action” in that episode. And I think for a supposedly two-lead show, they could have managed in this episode to give two leads an action role.
And no, I didn’t confuse my words, I used the word I feel is approriate for the scene.
As for making the deal, going to hell and breaking the first seal, well, sure those were important acts – negatively important that is. And yet Dean didn’t get a chance at big flashy redemption because Death told him in no uncertain terms what he had to do: step aside and let Sam, he who is “the only one who can do it” take care of things.
So what, Sam needed a car and a toy soldier to break through. He was still the end all, be all in that moment. And nope, that wasn’t a good thing for the character and my sympathies for him. Being pushed on me as the “special one” has quite the reverse effect.
The episode couldn’t have made it clearer that Dean himself didn’t have an impact in that moment. Not that I would have found it a valid role then either. I hate yellow crayon moments. They are given to the Xander-characters, also known as the sidekicks of their respective worlds. But even that scrap was too much for Dean apparently.
As for being resurrected and being Michael’s vessel, I loved it in Season 4 and early 5. I loved it when I believed in it. But all that stopped to have ANY meaning when Adam was a perfect Michael vessel and Michael told Dean “you are not a part of this story anymore”. Thank you, writers, for that lovely meta statement. Your episode made it quite clear regardless.
In terms of the storylines being swapped and the Sam-fans being happy? Don’t count on it. In “On the head of a pin” when Castiel said Dean as the righteous man was supposed to end it and signs pointed to Dean as the central arc figure, the sky was falling in Sam-land.
If Sam had gotten Dean’s role in the Finale, it would have gone over as well with a lot of Sam-fans as did the vice versa with a lot of Dean-fans.
And Dean never doing enough, well, like I said, I was happy in Season 4 when it looked like he had his own arc with the angels. I wanted him to get a chance to be Michael. I would have even settled for him saying no and thus affecting the Michael part of the equation significantly. I would have been happy if he had been Michael in human form. I would have been okay if both had vesseled, both overcome their archangels and jumped into the pit together. I may have even been okay if Dean had been the only one who could operate the rings.
So, you see, there are parts I would have find satisfying. The way it happened not being one of them.
I’m trying to look at things in different ways, Sasha. I feel both boys ‘end of season moments’ were just as important as the others. Each had a moment at the end of Season 4, Dean in killing Ruby, Sam in releasing Lucifer (and as negative moments go, what a whopper!) Dean had a monumental moment at the end of Season 3, the deal coming through. People might think it was insignificant but Dean gave everything he had, to save his entire world (and if I can recall, Sam was as powerless in that situation as Dean is deemed to be in the season 5 finale.) The end of Season 2, a monumental moment from Dean, killing YED. But this is a story about brothers; and as a team, it doesn’t matter who gets the job done, as long as it gets done. I feel it’s been that way since 1.1, right up to 5.22. You don’t feel the same way, fair enough.
‘So what, Sam needed a car and a toy soldier to break through.’ Sam needed his home to break through. Chuck stated they were never homeless with the Impala. Home is where your heart is because home is where your family is. That’s Dean, Sams heart. After Lucifer’s monologue about how Sam was always ‘running to his true family’, Sam’s memories, (sparked by the most innocuous of objects,) those that helped him wrest control from Lucifer, all contained his true family, in his true home; the one place he felt safe with the one person who kept him safe. That’s what family is, that’s what Lucifer didn’t realise, and that’s why Sam could make the breakthrough, not because of a car and a toy.
I wonder if they hadn’t lost the amulet, would this have been the trigger for the breakthrough? (Actually, if I could change one thing about the episode, it would have been this.)
Re: Adam being the ‘perfect’ vessel for Michael, I’d have to say the opposite. There’s a saying down my neck of the woods ‘When all fruit fails, welcome haws’. In other words, when you can’t get what you really want, you take whatever you can lay your hands on. For the angels, Adam would suffice, but only in a pinch. In Point of No Return, Zachariah dropped Adam like a hot potato at the mere possibility of Dean saying yes. When Sam said yes to Lucifer, the angels found themselves in that pinch. Lucifer had his true vessel, the time and date for battle was set. Dean had already proven he wouldn’t say yes, therefore the angels had no choice but to call on the ‘haw’ or lesser substitute, Adam (sorry, Adam fans…) Dean was still the angels first choice, he just wouldn’t submit to them.
(I also have to say, for a ‘perfect’ vessel; Adam sucked. Either that or Michael is the world’s worst archangel. In his Adam vessel, he gets smashed with holy fire and then dragged into the Pit, so I found Michael pretty ineffective with Adam as a vessel.)
We saw how powerful Lucifer was in his true vessel. (Breaking necks and exploding angels is pretty powerful to me.) Is it not possible, therefore, that by saying ‘no’, Dean DID affect the Michael part of the equation pretty significantly. Dean denied Michael his most powerful weapon, Dean. He took the gun, as it were, out of Michaels hands and gave him a plastic sword (Adam). Had Michael and Lucifer been in their chosen vessels, the ensuing battle, in terms of loss of human life, would have been catastrophic. Dean saying ‘no’ prevented that.
In relation to the redemption issue, Elle2 stated in a previous article, that she didn’t feel redemption comes through suffering. I agree with her. I feel it comes through your choices and how you act on them. The family business was saving lives. Sam said ‘yes’ because it would save lives. Dean said ‘no’ for the same reason. Had Dean said yes to Michael, Zachariah confirmed it would ‘scramble’ quite a few ‘eggs’. Dean wouldn’t do this; it’s not in him to kill innocents.
Had Dean said yes, would he have been considered redeemed? Possibly by the angels but I would argue the opposite, that Dean redeemed himself by saying No. People died as a result of Dean saying ‘yes’ to get off the rack. He was not going to have more people die as a result of him saying ‘yes’ again. I consider that redemption. Dean did what he had to do for the betterment of others, same as Sam.
Sasha, you feel Dean was redundant in Season 5, I don’t. This is going to be one of the things we’ll have to agree to disagree on, I’m afraid. That’s just the nature of the beast on these sites (damn sites!) I’m sorry the show isn’t currently doing it for you and I genuinely hope that come the end of Season 6 you’ll be happier with it.
“Sam would have failed. So Dean and Sam saved the world. Neither one could have done it alone!”
True, but it sure would be nice if someone on the show *cough..Sam…cough*, other than Lisa, would acknowledge this.
“In relation to the redemption issue, Elle2 stated in a previous article, that she didn’t feel redemption comes through suffering. I agree with her. I feel it comes through your choices and how you act on them. The family business was saving lives. Sam said ‘yes’ because it would save lives. Dean said ‘no’ for the same reason. Had Dean said yes to Michael, Zachariah confirmed it would ‘scramble’ quite a few ‘eggs’. Dean wouldn’t do this; it’s not in him to kill innocents.”
Dean said no because he didn’t want to let Sam down. He said that exact thing at the end of PONR. There were ways that they could have worked it so that Dean’s reasons for saying yes(ie. Dean developing “faith” in something bigger than himself, or Dean being able to “get through” to Michael in some way, as he did with Gabriel) would have been better than utter despair, and that would have worked just as well as Sam’s reasonings supposedly did. Personally, I felt that Sam’s underlying arrogance played a part in his saying yes to Lucifer and that there was a part of him that wanted to be the “only one” who could/would do it. I think we saw that arrogance many times over the course of the series, but especially in When the Levee Breaks when he sneered at Dean and Dean’s claim to it being “his(Dean’s) gig”. But the writers wanted Sam to be the one, and they wanted his reasons to be noble, and this in spite of the verbally unacknowledged to date arrogance that we’ve seen more than once since Asylum in Sam, regarding his brother, so they gave us that lame-ass “I’m the least of us…” speech and we were supposed to believe that Sam had learned humility and to respect Dean, just like that; and that he wouldn’t have gone through with his plan w/o Dean’s “blessing”, and yada, yada, yada…my point being, Dean could have just as easily said yes for good and honorable reasons too, if the writers had wanted and allowed it. But the writers didn’t want Dean to be the big damn action hero-that was reserved for Sam, and only Sam, from the beginning and so we got what they gave us-which to me was pathetic and sadly unmindful of all that Jensen had done to make his character more than just and only the wind beneath Sam’s wings all series-long.
What if Dean had been able to speak/work with Michael somehow, so as to allow Dean some control of his actions in the end, and then he’d said yes having faith that the archangel who was(and should have been, IMO) the terrifying, but “true” right hand of God(not just his “yes man”) and who through Dean could have learned why his “father” did indeed value these lowly humans so greatly, and what if Lucifer then would have had to settle for Nick at the Last Battle? And what if Sam had learned that he didn’t have to be a slave or victim to his “destiny”? What if in this way the brothers roles had been reversed in that way? I guess we’ll never know because that’s not the way the writers wanted to do it. They chose instead to cut Dean’s own role in the myth-arc out entirely and to leave him with only the emotional and supporter of Sam role-and even that was terribly executed, IMO, with the spying of his toy soldier being the big “break-through” moment for Sam, rather than Dean’s nearly being beaten to death at Sam’s hands-and then to top things off Sam opened the cage himself, jumped in, and dragged Michael in with him while Dean…sat on the ground and watched-and worst of all, all this happened in the culmination of the five year story. Kripke couldn’t even let Dean be the only one who could open the portal. I’m sorry, but IMO, Dean, Jensen, and a large portion of the Dean Fandom were done a terrible disservice in Swan Song; and no one will ever be able to convince me otherwise. The writing could have made anything happen-as it clearly did in showing all the characters doing about-faces from what they felt in PONR when it was Dean who was gong to say yes, just to have them get behind Sam’s “plan” of saying yes. IMO, it would have made more sense for them to have made Dean’s reasonings for saying yes the noble and honorable thing to do than it was for them to have all the other characters do virtual backflips in their characterizations in order to mold the exact same evil things that Sam did to damn the world into the things that saved it.
But, for better or worse, that’s what the writers went with and we are left with the choice of accepting it as “good writing” or not. I choose to not, especially when in order to accomplish this, the writers basically ousted my favorite character entirely from the series-long myth-arc story at the eleventh hour. I cannot believe that if the roles were reversed the other quarter of the fandom would feel differently. Whatever. I’m over it and I’ve learned much about the writers of this show from it; which is why, upon some reflection, I now have to agree with what Sasha said in regards to the question of how I’d feel about a complete role-reversal.
“I sad it before and I´ll say it agin. Till season 5 the story was about Sam but it was shown from Deans point of view. You always knew what Dean felt, you could only guess how Sam felt. I think that was the way the show kept its balance between the two brothers.”
Yeah, since it doesn’t appear they’re capable of giving both to each, I’d give up the emotional storyline, too now, if it meant that I’d get to see Dean acknowledged-on the show, through the script and the dialogue, as the Big Damn Hero that the character is, and has always been, by the end of the series.