Summary:  This episode was written by Ross-Leming and Buckner. The episode splits its focus between Crowley/Rowena and Sam/Dean. There is no A-story but rather two B-stories.

Rowena is still angry with Crowley for not petitioning the Grand Coven for her and for running off to help the Winchesters and also losing the First Blade to them. Crowley makes it up to her by bringing her Olivette, the leader of the Grand Coven, who Rowena tortures. Rowena finds out that the Grand Coven has lost its power for the most part and it’s been hunted by the Men of Letters, a group that now possesses much of the Coven’s archive and power. Rowena solves her Olivette problem by turning the woman into a hamster running in a wheel.

Meanwhile, Sam and Dean are investigating a case of apparent suicides. The emotional story focuses on Sam’s continued persistent wish to cure the Mark of Cain and Dean’s apparent acceptance of his fate. There is a confessional scene where Dean confesses he doesn’t want to die and wants to live and have a life. The story that emerges in the case is that a nun is reading a journal left by a betrayed woman from the 16th century. She was in love with an artist who refused her affections and she was sent to a nunnery where her pain turned to hate. The nun admits that she has entertained ghosts before and they usually find their peace. Not Isabella. The case resolves when Sam burns the painting of Isabella that contained her flesh and bones.

The episode ends with Rowena promising to seek her power and Sam and Dean in the Impala where Sam is still strident in finding a cure while Dean  sits quietly in the passenger seat.


Do you think the Men of Letters reveal will be important in the finale?

Do you think Dean is afraid of what he may become? What was his confession about?

Where will Crowley fall in these allegiances?

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here!


# AlyCat22 2015-03-25 22:57
Let's speculate? Let's all not and say we did!!!!! Save the collective "we" the pain of having to sit thru this again. Kidding. Sort of. No, I gotta say it - it sucked. Suckage - major! Best part was Deans confession and Sam figuring out the MOW and what to do. The guys even looked like they were barely half awake during this snoozefest!!!!! So much for moving the main MOC storyline along there TPTB!!!!!
# Mae 2015-03-25 23:05
You are WAY nicer than I am. This whole episode felt off and was just...bad. So, so bad.

First I would argue that there were three B-story lines: Crowley/Rowena, the nuns, and Sam/Dean. Which did not work in any way, shape or form.

Supernatural - bottom line - needs more Sam and Dean these days. Sam & Dean carry the show, and when they are not given the opportunity to do so (like tonight), the show just flounders. And flounders bad. The story lines in myth arc episodes this season are being split between Crowley, Cas and Sam/Dean..and now the MOW are also being split too, to the point where we are getting more insight into the one-off guest stars than we are the Winchesters. Which, what the hell, writers?

I couldn't even get on board with the broments as I feel like the brothers have pretty much the same convo's week after week - yeah, the words might be slightly different but it's all kinda the same. It is like they are talking in circles & we are being forced to listen to it on repeat. Like I LOVE that Sam is so intent on saving Dean, but we need more. We just got two episodes in a row where Sam is looking on his phone for Mark stuff, and telling Dean that's they'll save him. Like nothing Sam said or did this week provided us with any new details into his head or told us anything we didn't already know. It's frustrating as hell.

I just felt no emotional connection to this episode whatsoever. I felt something slight during Dean's confession but 1) I was too busy trying to discern whether or not the writers were baiting/intenti onally giving fan service (which, just stop, writers - really, stop) and 2) what exactly we were suppose to get from Dean's confession? Like aside from growing old, does he want to fall in love, get married? Because I thought it was already well established that those those things are not in the cards - and he's OK with it! How does he want to experience life differently, and what is the reason for it? It all made zero sense.

Overall this episode was weak, and boring, and unbalanced and the pacing was off. AND SO MUCH EXPOSITION. It was just an all and all TERRIBLE episode of Supernatural.
# E 2015-03-25 23:13
omg…OMG…..O.M.G …. what in the hell..??? That was just about the worst thing I've ever seen, on this show, on television as a whole even. What utter rubbish. It was embarrassingly bad. I am utterly stunned at this new low… the writing first and foremost, the acting (even the J's didn't look that good here) the ever irritating Rowena hits new heights of dreadful camp and the nun… what awful, ponderously bad line reading, she was not just bad, she was extraordinarily bad. And how, in any way was that disembowelment? The victims were simply run of the mill stabbed. THe premise was ludicrous, the execution awful, the MoC largely ignored. And a run of the mill ghost! How inventive. So much time wasted on a renaissance love story… ugh. Look! It's the new Supernatural spinoff! Supernatural: Passions. Pardon me while I wretch.
# sylvia37 2015-03-25 23:33
Well that was pretty awful. I seriously thought we were not going to get anything out of it until finally that witch brought up the Men of Letters. So all of that hot mess just to have a little reveal to Rowena. The only thing that saved it just a little bit for me was that Sam COMPLETELY IGNORED DEAN FOR ONCE and went with his gut for the win! And he was so sarcastic like this whole episode which was awesome. So at least there was that. I could have done without the terrible back story for the nun, the awful acting and more of Dean and his navel gazing.
To answer your question, I have no idea what that confession was supposed to be about. Is he all of the sudden thinking he wants to stop hunting, settle down and get married? WTH! And honestly, I don't care. I just want them to move this story forward at a faster than a snail's pace.
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-25 23:39
What a crock of HORSESHIT !!!!!!
right above BLOODLINES.
damn son. :(:(:(:(:(:(
WTF was that? see ya next week.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 09:07
Wow NolaNola, tell us what you really think? ;)

I'm about to rewatch it. Pray for me! I have to rewatch that confession scene cause it made little sense the first run through.
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-26 11:25
Prayers can NEVER HURT, but
I really really mean that :D
# Russ 2015-03-26 02:00
# cheryl42 2015-03-26 02:46
Well I have to admit I read a few comments in reaction to the episode (West Coast here) so I was expecting something Bloodlines bad. It was definitely my least favorite episode of the season but not quite BL bad. I think that is about the kindest thing I can say about it right now. After a re watch (yes I am going to watch it again) I will probably have less flattering things to say.
If there is a point to this season I wish they would make it. Or at least hint at it.
Well I was right I do have less flattering things to say. Second watch will probably be the last one.
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-26 03:20
about this episode. NOT ONE.
same bat channel next week.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-26 03:40
Few things to add to speculation that came from the story. I think the story was interesting as my ears perked on these bits:

- Men of Letters the reason the grand covenant is out of business and the Winchesters are the last heritage line.
- Boys will get Rowena on their asses pretty soon
- No anvils and the ghost had an old backstory which was a new thing and gross one at that.
- Sam founding out what to destroy even though Dean said to burn the book. (Alright, maybe a slight anvil)
- The monster was bat crazy. Just saying.

Anyway, the episode all in all was alright.

- Lilah
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 06:34
Why did they have to subject the viewer to that ridiculously long and OMG boring, back story!!! They could've covered that in so many different ways that would've left enough time for, you know - story!?! It might've been cool if the big reveal about the ghost was an actual "Big Reveal!!!!!" And Deans confession? While well done by Jensen - What? !? Painful. The entire episode was Oh, So Painful. But it was like a carwreck, you just couldn't look away... This episode by this pair actually hit lows than even I thought was impossible. I've seen 8th Grade plays that were better plotted. I'll posit the question again - HOW DO THESE TWO "WRITERS" STILL HAVE THEIR JOBS???!!!??? I'm starting to wonder if Buckner isn't some kind of mind controlling growth or a second head type thing on Eugenies shoulder? I've seen her yet I've never seen the elusive Buckner. It's either that or Buckner is in a self imposed perpetual hiding type situation -a writers protection plan, if you will. No, I think it's clear that the "growth" is actually in charge? Yeah, that is about the only thing that would remotely explain this weeks crap-fest.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-26 07:09
I liked actually the backstory if you can call it "liked". It was interesting because we haven't really seen that old ghost in the show before.
And about the writers, I don't actually care who they are. That is not why I watch the episodes.

It was really early when I watched this episode so I will watch it again later with my counter part that I will see better how I feel about it then.

Otherwise, yeah not much to say. :)

- Lilah
# Mel 2015-03-26 08:33
I wonder if the MotW back story was actually written for another show (like Originals) and then shoehorned into Supernatural because Singer's wife liked it so much and insisted they use it. It wasn't the worst episode they've written, (Man's Best Friend with Benefits takes that one for me) but it was boring. I think the characters killed themselves to not have to endure the entire episode.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 08:49
Ha! I know I was about ready to do the same to myself! Confession time? "Bless me Father, for I have sinned - I actually had the gall to think that TTWC was just an okay episode... I have now been shown the error of my wicked, wicked ways!" Oh the humanity!
# njspnfan 2015-03-26 06:44
Just when you think they can't get any worse, Ross-Leming and Buckner write this little gem. At first I thought this was an early April fools joke.

The entire episode felt tired, like everyone was just going thru the motions. Sad to say that this included the actors, too. However, that being said, I am going to have to rewatch because I kept losing focus/interest during the episode.

Do you think the Men of Letters reveal will be important in the finale? Of course, it creates conflict between the Winchesters, Rowena, and Crowley.

Do you think Dean is afraid of what he may become? What was his confession about? Of course, nothing new here. However, I did find the whole confession contradictory and a bit messy; wasn't sure at what point he stopped BS'ing the priest and started his "true" confession. In any event, it was a bit of a jumbled mess.

Where will Crowley fall in these allegiances? Crowley's first allegiance is to himself, but as far as choosing between the Winchesters and his Mom, good question.

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here. This episode was

Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 16:27
Was it any better upon a rewatch?
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-26 16:47
I could answer that but you did not ask ME.
ALYCAT how was the re-watch my dear....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 16:59
Please fill me in. I don't think I realized that you were also going to rewatch it. I loved your original post so any further thoughts from you would be welcome.:)
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-26 18:14
Sorry luv, I have seen it 4 times
it only gets WORSE :P
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 18:26
I would've thought that was impossible!
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 21:04
Gah! Now I'm starting to feel like I suffer from split personality disorder! I need a T shirt. I Survived Rewatch - Back in Black - 2015... I'm of two very confused minds now. One, I'm a bad fan who let her jaded predjudice against these writers influence her unfairly or Two, I've been desensitized to crap writing because of overexposure to these said writers!!!!!

I dunno. Rewatch I didn't want to gouge my eyes out like the first time. Am I a victim of over expectation? Do I want to see MOC/DemonDean and BAMF Sam so bad that I am letting it affect my viewing pleasure? I'm thinking a little bit, yeah. I loved the take charge, take no crap Sam that came forward strongly this episode. The Sam at the end in the car. He is not someone who will be diverted. This Sam is going to double down. I'm fearful as to what will happen because I suspect a few of the cures Sams going to find will fail which will further drive his desperation. Dean? The confession where he was talking about experiencing feelings differently or for the first time - did you guys get the idea he was talking about Sam? Like revisiting their relationsip? I'm not talking ships or sex just their brotherly dynamics. It also seemed to me Dean was seeing and accepting that there is more to him than he ever was willing to accept. He's starting to lean toward a healthy outlook but it's too late, he's run out of time and deep down he knows it. The convo in the car. Dean was hurting. He showed it three times. Sam was aware, I think he was trying to keep a light mood while hoping Dean would open up to him. Is Dean experiencing the same symptoms as before or is this something new? I think its something new. Dean was confusing in this episode, he seemed to be all over emotionally. Bad writing? Intentional writing? Or I suck at reading in between the lines?

So did I like the episode the second time around? No, but I didn't hate it like I initially did. This is another example of bad timing to me. Why so much backstory on the MOTW when they could have better used that time to propel the MOC storyline forward? This tact would have been better earlier on in the season. P.S. I still hate the Nepotism Duo. I hate their predictable writing 101. Lousy pacing, confusing or crap dialogue, ruination of canon... Yeah, they never fail to disappoint. ;)
# vic 2015-03-30 05:13
They actually haven't done anything that ruins canon. Everyone likes to bring up rogue reapers, you may not like them, but the concept doesn't violate any canon. No more than Kripke deciding they can look however they want from season 1 to season 2. Also I don't find their dialouge confusing at all, in fact I think they probably write Crowley the best out of anyone on staff.

It's actually Dabb that has fucked with canon more than anyone: Reapers as angels - Dabb. Shapeshifters not shedding skin - Dabb
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 21:19
You know the other thing in the episode which made me stop and go Bzuh? The scene where Dean is talking to Hot Nun and he says 'quits one life for something completely different and then believe in it so much' - what is he talking about? Embracing life as DemonDean since he logically thinks that's where he's heading? Is he thinking about surviving and quitting hunting? aIs he musing about opening up a nice B&B with the rest of TFW? What!!!???!!!
# njspnfan 2015-03-26 18:03
going in for a rewatch now; wish me luck.
# njspnfan 2015-03-26 19:00
no better on rewatch
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 19:07
Maybe the third time's the charm?
# njspnfan 2015-03-26 19:42
hell no !!!!
# E 2015-03-26 19:08
Why would you subject yourself to the torture? Once is more than enough for me. I'd like to scrub my brain of the experience honestly. This epi is now officially in my bottom 4….
Mannequin Three: The Reckoning
Back in Black (was it every explained what the title meant? The nuns were wearing gray)
Mans Best Friends with Benefits
Taxi Driver

Not sure which of these four is more horrible but three of them are by Ross-Leming/Bru ckner.
# Ginger 2015-03-26 07:20
I was hoping to see SPN last night, but a badly written True Romance fanfic story about some 16th century nun pre-empted it.

Do you think the Men of Letters reveal will be important in the finale? I find that none of the other writers ever pick up on anything Lemming/Ross write, so my guess is no. I don't think I like that there are MoL bunkers all over the world, because that means there are other MoL's all over the world. Despite the Winchesters being the only MoL left in the U.S., I sort of felt that further diminished the Winchester characters -- a trait I find prevalent under Carver's reign.

Do you think Dean is afraid of what he may become? What was his confession about? S3 Dean where he decides he doesn't want to die, with the exception that S3 Dean deciding that he did not want to die had him step up and start playing for keeps. This season Dean has given up and buried his head in the sand. He now wishes he had lived his life differently, but...oh is too late for that normal life, or maybe becoming a priest so that he has a higher purpose than a warrior standing on the wall fighting evil. I doubt that Lemming/Ross even knows what Dean was supposed to mean. My question is whether all the writers have dropped the immortality granted to the Mark-bearer; that if Dean dies, he turns into a demon; that he can't be killed, except by another MoC-bearer using the First Blade. I don't get even a little bit this fatalistic outlook Dean has.

Where will Crowley fall in these allegiances? If it comes down to bad mommy or his feelings for Hot Guy Who Has No Interest, I am betting Crowley goes with Hot Guy.

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Truly atrocious, right there with Bloodlines.
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 08:44
I actually thought it might get interesting for a minute when the Nun was going to stab Dean and we would find out he couldn't die. Like, he'd just made that big confession about not wanting to and BAM, he finds out he can't. But nope.
# tartysuz 2015-03-26 14:44
That would have been amazing!
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 08:53
Who wouldn't go with Hot Guy!?! ;)

So the MOL lair turns out to be MOL LAIRS! Like McDonalds, they are scattered worldwide. I'm sure they will be opening up franchise opportunities any day now...
# E 2015-03-26 19:11
It's the next Supernatural spinoff…. Supernatural : Passions.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 07:30
Russ said it best but I will add my two cents because I have to or I will explode. I feel like the girl at the end of Poltergiest who's standing there screaming "What's happening!" I think this ep equaled Bloodlines in suckitude and is only the second ep I will never re-watch even one scene of. For once the typically poor treatment of Sam was dwarfed by everything else so horribly wrong about this ep but I'll get that out of the way first. 1. Sam goes off to silently scan the church for EMF while Dean flirts (!!) with the nun (horrible acting by that actress). 2. while Dean is in the confessional having a long conversation that starts out vulgar and stupid and ends up confusing and OOC, Sam silently sits in the pew with his thumb up his butt trying to figure out where they'll eat dinner. 3. Sam silently reads the journal while Dean traipses around the church with the nun. There, done. For once, the dialogue and actions written for Dean were so terrible, campy and stupid that I was actually glad Sam was mostly ignored. I agree with the general confusion over what Dean was saying to the priest- was he referring to a normal life with wife and kiddies? Sadly, the Sam and Dean stuff was the "highlight" of the ep. That first scene with Crowley, Rowena and the two-faced henchman was so ATROCIOUS in every way that I said to my daughter "this is by far the worst Rowena scene ever." My daughter shouted "this is the worst scene in the WHOLE SERIES!" She actually fell asleep half way through the ep. I, unfortunately, was so mesmerized by this horror show of an ep that I couldn't look away. Kind of like a rubber necker at the worst traffic accident in history. Anyway, words (almost) fail me when describing this scene. I'm not a huge Rowena fan but her acting was particularly awful, the dialogue was laughably campy, Sheppard seemed embarrassed to even be there, and that two-faced demon- OMG, what is happening to SPN? Seriously, WHAT. IS. HAPPENING? The scenes between Rowena and the coven leader (I can't recall her name, nor do I want to) were similarly horrendous. Every single thing about this ep was an abomination (I'm running out of synonyms for "bad"). The only 10 seconds of it that were remotely watchable was the revelation about the MOL. I'm wondering if the brothers will now return to Cuthbert Sinclair's invisible mansion to find ways to combat Rowena, since Cuthbert seemed to be a witch himself. I never thought the duo that wrote this ep was quite as crappy as everyone else thinks- I did enjoy some of their episodes- but this episode honestly seemed like something written by teenagers scripting their own horror movie. Except that every year there is a contest in my area for middle schoolers and high schoolers to script and film their own short horror film, and most of the ones I've seen were immeasurably better than this mess. Even the score was bad. I haven't liked the music on SPN as much the last few years because there hasn't been much classic rock and some of the song choices have been weird, but this is the first time that the score was very noticeably annoying and intrusive. Everyone involved in this episode-writers , producers, actors, etc- phoned it in. What a travesty.
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 08:33
Yep, I'm starting to think that there's a clause written into Jensen's contract that he gets to have conversations with all relevant guest stars and Jared is contractually obligated to go off screen. Seriously, how many times has this happened in the last few seasons. I'm sure someone could count it. But at least Sam had most of the interesting dialogue between the two of them this week. He was sarcastic and funny and SMART and that is the only thing that made this episode watchable for me.

And as for Dean, once again, his tune is changing. I swear I want to tie him to a chair and force him to re-watch every time he's gone back and forth about what is important in their lives, especially the times he's gone off on Sam about it. I mean, am I the only one who remembers him treating Sam like S#$T in many endless episodes of season 8 for having a normal life for two seconds. And now he's wishing he'd done some stuff different? ARGGGGGGG......
# Shante 2015-03-26 09:28
hi there, i just wanted to say i'll do it since im also keeping track of Sam's unconsciousness
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 11:02
Awesome. Thanks, although I know it's only going to validate my feelings....sig h.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 16:04
I hate to add to your workload, but if you're going back through the episodes anyway count how many times the opposite happens- Dean wandering off for no apparent reason while Sam talks to the guest star. I'm thinking it will be a big fat goose egg.
# Shante 2015-03-27 09:06
sure. i'll see if i find any of the opposite for Dean
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 08:33
I have no idea why this double posted.:(
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 08:56
Who wouldn't go with Hot Guy!?! ;)

So the MOL lair turns out to be MOL LAIRS! Like McDonalds, they are scattered worldwide. I'm sure they will be opening up franchise opportunities any day now...
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 09:01
I just had a horrible thought - if JC steps down as showrunner I keep hearing rumblings that Robbie Thompson would be the next in line. What if Robert Singer in his continuing display of Nepotism demanded that it go to his wife, Eugenie? Gah! Even though I'm only joking that whole imaginary scenario makes me want to run screaming for the brain bleach.
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 09:12
Bite your tongue, heathen!!!!!! :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 21:22
Not happy about the Robby T. possibility because of the Charlie factor. What if he elevated her to series regular!!! The horror!!!!!!! It's bad enough that we're about to get another Charlie ep so soon after the last one. Crap! If she figures out the cure I will go ballistic. I'd rather have bad writing by the ND than have Charlie get the win.
# vic 2015-03-30 05:18
If anyone was going to take over it would be Dabb, based seniority alone. And he's made some of the biggest canon violations, I'd take BB/ELR over him since they stick to canon, and have actually been show runners.
# Jo1027 2015-03-26 08:45
Yup, agree with everyone above. The episode was boring and it embarrassed me to admit I watched it.
Rating: F-
# E 2015-03-26 08:56
I figured I'd come back and at least try to answer some of the questions Bookdal posed….

Do you think the Men of Letters reveal will be important in the finale? Probably. I mean we had to sit through 42 minutes of absolute dreck simply for one character to say MoL, so I guess that was supposed to be the Big Reveal or something. And Teryl Rothery, what are you doing? You are a decent actress… I watched you for years on Stargate… what are you doing here in this awful, awful episode? I am sorry, but you were terrible, as terrible Ruth Connell, who was more terrible than usual. Maybe her awfulness infected you and sucked out all your talent. And now you are a hamster wearing a red necklace running on a wheel. I shudder at the memory.

Do you think Dean is afraid of what he may become? What was his confession about? Well, apparently Dean is afraid to die, not afraid of becoming something else, because it seems as though the writers have completely forgotten the rules that they themselves set up about the MoC. I think they are setting up ANOTHER Dean dies at the end of the season arc, which we've already had. Everyone is forgetting that the current canon states that once Dean is killed he will raise as a demon, a Knight of Hell. Hell, the fact that someone with the Mark can only be killed by someone else with the mark AND the blade was only addressed a few short episodes ago, but do these writers appear to have any knowledge of that? No, they don't. So, Dean is worried about dying even though we all know he CAN'T die. Why isn't he worried about being a knight of hell and killing everyone in sight?

Where will Crowley fall in these allegiances? Who cares. It concerns me more that Mark Sheppard is now no longer available to perform on other shows because he's a series regular on this one, and look what they are doing with him. I'd be pissed if I was him.

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here! I am so horrified by what I saw last night that I can hardly process it. I agree with samandean10 that Sam being excused out of the scene not once but TWICE and being a non-entity in his own show was actually a GOOD thing. It means he was less involved in this embarrassing, epic crapfest.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 16:25
I have to say, after all of my bitching about how Sam is written I'm starting to think they're doing almost as poor a job with Dean. He really is all over the place, contradicting things he's said and thought in previous episodes and seasons, and lurching from grim, unhappy Dean to juvenile jackass Dean. This season they have shown Dean sometimes acting more like Dean in his 20s than Dean in his mid-30s. Yes, Dean has always liked the ladies, but in Seasons 6-8 he was portrayed as a more mature, age appropriate Dean, who doesn't objectify and try to bed every chick he meets. The one glaring exception was in the virgin group episode, but I can forgive that because screwing a Casa Erotica girl was on his bucket list. Hey, the bucket list trumps everything else. Now they have him flirting with a nun and talking to/about her like a horny high schooler. Then he starts his confession to the priest sounding like a horny, vulgar high schooler. He acts like a toddler around food, stuffing his face and swiping frosting, and sorry, but I don't think the MOC really explains/justif ies that. That whole confession scene made no sense and seemed completely OOC for Dean. He's becoming almost unrecognizable as the Dean I love. Every time Jensen gets a script he must wonder which incarnation of Dean he's playing that week. I miss the real Dean almost as much as I miss seeing any version of Sam.
# E 2015-03-26 18:19
You know samandean, that's a good point. Dean isn't faring much better since Carver took over either. He's dictatorial, disagreeable, immature… He's shown here to be lusting after a nun, practically hitting on her which is just….. yuck. Show some respect for another person's life choices. He's also been shown lately to be gawking at 18 year old girls…. which is not just yuck but becoming Criminal Minds creepy. It's almost like both brothers have been reduced to their core characteristics and have lost all their complexity. For Dean this means… 1)Likes to eat, 2)Ladies Man 3)Bossy. That's how we end up with Creeper Dean hitting inappropriately on a nun. For Sam its worse, as near as I can figure he's been reduced to 1)introverted. Thats it. And even though Dean has been reduced and simplified he's still interacting with others, getting dialog, POV and insight. That's more than Sam is getting these days. In this episode though that turned out the a blessing (who's have ever thought!) because even Jensen's talents couldn't save this awful, awful material. Dean came across as a misogynist jerk and a complete hypocrite in this ep. His "confession" was completely absurd and unfocused. It was so confusing and OOC that I couldn't feel for Dean AT ALL as he tried to "get real" with the priest. I've seen a lot of people complain that this ep was boring. If it was only boring I wouldn't be upset. This was bad…. poorly written, badly plotted with a terrible premise. How could JC possibly have approved of this episode? I'd rather they ran a previously seen episode or had another mini-hiatus than to release this mess to the public.
# percysowner 2015-03-26 09:02
I'm with the majority that thinks this was a terrible episode. I have thought that I might quit the show because of anger at the lack of Sam, this is the first time I've considered quitting because it's so damned boring! The good: Sam not following Dean's orders. Sam being snarky. The Bad: the rest of the hour. At least after everything Dean didn't ask the nun to take him to her quarters so he can get some books on devotion then hint strongly that he's always fantasized about "doing" a nun and it would be a real shame if the church found out that she's been communing with ghosts.

Do you think the Men of Letters reveal will be important in the finale? Only if it doesn't involve Sam in some way.

Do you think Dean is afraid of what he may become? What was his confession about? Dean seems to have totally forgotten that he can't die. He also seems strangely uninterested in the fact that the Mark may mean he's going to kill his best friend and his brother. Plus after 10 seasons of doing everything he can to keep Sam from a normal life, now his big (and possibly only) regret is that he didn't get it for himself? He was out! He had what he's talked about with Lisa and Ben! He went back on his own. I have issues with Dean, but this is a level of disinterest in anyone but himself that I really didn't expect. Especially since the priest made it clear that confession was about sins, not how I've let myself down. What were they thinking?

Where will Crowley fall in these allegiances? Don't know, not sure I care. He'll probably realize that a fully powered Rowena is more of a threat than the Winchesters and throw in with them.

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here! This was really, really bad.
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 10:20
This. I've given serious thought to quitting because of what they're doing to Sam too, but I just can't make myself let go. Until this episode, I kept thinking that they might actually get around to letting him do something relevant this season, but my hope is waning. The only thing I can say is that next week, he's off with Castiel doing some interesting look things, so maybe there will be some actual dialogue about HIM. I know, don't get my hopes up......:(
# njspnfan 2015-03-26 10:40
Does it still require the First Blade to "activate" the MoC, turning dead Dean in to demon Dean, or did the rules change on this again while I wasn't paying attention?
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 09:02
Oh, I forgot to mention that I did find Sam walking around reading Italian very hot for some reason. I could have happily sat through a whole hour of flashbacks to get more of that.;)
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-26 09:04
Does ERIC KRIPKE even know WTF
these numb nuts are doing to his
baby of a show.....
# Ginger 2015-03-26 11:24
@ Nolanola: Quote:
Does ERIC KRIPKE even know WTF these numb nuts are doing to his baby of a show
My question, or I am curious for sure, as to whether or not the J2s are concerned about what these numb nuts are doing to what they have called 'their legacy.' Are they concerned? Are they even interested? My Chuck! They have built their careers on this show and to see every episode taken over by nobody cares characters while they are pimped in cameos or are used for stage furniture should cause them a little bit of concern.
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 12:58
God, I always wonder about this too. Are they just too close to it that they can't see the forest for the trees?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 16:37
I don't see how anyone associated with the show could have thought this ep was anything other than bad, but maybe it's not as much a collaborative effort as it was under Kripke. I remember reading how in the Kripke era they'd all be in the writers' room discussing each ep from every angle to see if it made sense, was consistent with canon, and hit all the right notes with the brothers. Everything was so much tighter then, from the individual episodes to the overall arc. Either Carver and Singer are more hands-off now and basically let the writers do whatever they wish with their episodes, or else they have lost interest in the show and just don't care as much as they did in earlier seasons. Either way, if Kripke does ever catch any episodes, it has to bother him.
# E 2015-03-26 18:21
I think everyone is writing their eps from home and not speaking to one another. And I think JC is willing to approve of anything that lands on his desk on time and within budget.
# st50 2015-03-26 10:26
Yeah..... I reached for reading material during that episode. Incredibly boring. Rather insulting to viewers, imho. And poorly acted by everyone. (I forgive them, because of the script).
I think I've gone numb. Can't even manage to be angry at this show, anymore.

I miss Supernatural - you remember, the story that revolved around two brothers? Saving people? Hunting Things? *sigh* That was a good show.
# sylvia37 2015-03-26 11:01
I'm not quite there yet. I'm still managing to be both angry and disappointed.
Nogadamo Bhitia
# Nogadamo Bhitia 2015-03-26 11:12
Do you think the Men of Letters reveal will be important in the finale? Yes. Rowena is going to go after them, maybe with Crowley's support, maybe by rallying other witches. I hope we learn more about MOL in other parts of the world. Please bring back the Golem and Nazi necromancers.

Do you think Dean is afraid of what he may become? What was his confession about? Dean isn't afraid of dying. He's just realized he has things to live for, reasons to stay alive, both rational and emotional ones. Like Sam. Friends like Charlie and Jody. We see the same thing in the military, which is why most of the hung-ho fighter pilots are young guys. Dean has grown up. You can't say that about most male characters on TV. (Is anyone else tired of the lack of adult males on TV? I don't mean age-wise. I mean maturity.)

Where will Crowley fall in these allegiances? Crowley will be torn but chose whatever side protects his position. His mother's lust for power will cause him real concern. She's already shown him he's second to that ambition (think trading him for pigs) and I think when push comes to shove his own ambition will cause him to throw her under whatever bus is coming at her. No one or no thing will keep him from trying to stay Big Cheese in Charge of Hell.

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here! Smart Independent-Thi nking Sam is back this season (and this episode) and I love to see it. He ignores Dean, saves his life and calls him out for not thanking him. Hooray! When did he learn to read Italian?

I watch Supernatural because it entertains me and pulls me out of my mundane world for at least an hour a week. This episode did that. I don't expect it to knock the ball out of the park every episode; there are episodes from past seasons I don't rematch because they don't entertain me. This may be one. There are others I can watch over and over because they do. Hibbing 9-1-1 this season is one of the latter. It just cracks me up watching two smart adult females my own age deal with the teenagers, lousy ex-husbands and all the other stuff we normal folks handle, and the supernatural, without losing it.

Here's a question I have:
Why was Sam driving the car at the end?
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 12:47
Oh I dunno. Crowley may turn all that in and decide to become a franchise owner of a couple of dozen or more MOL lairs... they could prove to be quite lucrative...
# njspnfan 2015-03-26 14:35
I think he should consider Chipotle Mexican Grill franchises instead; much more lucrative... those places are always busy.
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 15:36
I am probably one of the very few in the U.S. that does not care for Chipotle M. G.
# JuliaG 2015-03-26 12:20
"Why was Sam driving the car at the end"?

Because if he doesn't drive once in a while, he won't stay a good enough driver to drive Dean's baby. So, if there's an emergency, what if Sam crashes the car because he's not used to it anymore?

Seriously, why not Sam drive the car? It's happened before. Maybe Dean was tired.

About the episode, it was BAD.
# Glorie 2015-03-26 12:25
The confessional scene? Classic midlife crisis stuff. To be really honest, I saw it as pandering to the shippers. There, I said it. Ugh.

These ghost stories are tiresome, really this was stuff for the junior hunter crowd. How about some new evil? Yawn. This was really going through the motions.

Very sad.
# eilf 2015-03-26 12:51
Ok it's like this, I admit I got the giggles every time they started with the 15th century flashback music ... and if you are going to have someone act the role of a hot nun she needs to be a pretty good actress to be believable as a real nun who hasn't been excommunicated already for misbehaviour (and gossip?)... and since Dean knows he isn't going to die, and he IS going to kill Sam and hasn't told him yet, he doesn't really deserve the emoting-music confessional scene ...

(Can someone going to the con this weekend PLEASE ask J2 why the show is telling us Dean is going to die? Since they are also telling us he isn't going to die. Or can the editors at least put Dean's conversation with Cas about killing him into the 'Then' at the beginning of the episode, because this is nonsense at the moment.)

Anyway I didn't think the episode was that bad. ;) At least it didn't actively try to annoy me, and no more from SPN can I ask at this stage.

Sam didn't get choked at all. Sam was sassy all the way through the episode, and he saved the day, and he tried (yet again) to get Dean to communicate with him. He Scullied Dean for a good chunk of the episode, just on principle I think, which after last weeks beaten-dog (afraid to look at and apologizing to his torturer) the writers turned him in to was such a relief, it almost made the show fun again. He also left Dean alone to flirt with the flirty hot nun and I was never so happy to see Sam removed from a scene.

Rowena entertains me, I want to know how she holds her head up with all that makeup on her eyelashes. Ruth, it is a thankless job you have and you are making it memorable by being as over the top as Crowley used to be. She is a witch and SPN witches have always been high-drama and high-maintenance.

Camp for me is better than the core theme of last week's travesty, it still isn't my show but that is gone since 8.1 and it doesn't look like it is coming back.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 17:01
I confess that I'm a teensy bit disappointed that you didn't hate it. I love when you lambast an episode. You have a real way with words eilf.
# eilf 2015-03-26 17:29
Hah. This made me laugh out loud. I am taking it and putting it in a frame :D Thank you (erm, I think)! I used be such a happy person too ...

Seriously though most weeks it is like they say 'ok so we wrote scenes for Dean, and conversations and fights and wins for Dean, look, we made a tv show! Are there any other characters we could write for? Any plotlines we started that have been dropped? No? Ok, good. PRINT!'

Sam was IN this episode and nobody got to torture him and then call him Sammy, or accuse him of killing their mother, or make jokes about the death of the women he loved in his life, or strangle him. And he got to emote using words instead of just looks. And it was pointed out really thoroughly that just because Dean is unable to say 'thank you' or 'I'm sorry' or 'I need help' doesn't mean that Sam is undeserving of these things being said to him. And if all the so called 'better writers' did a better job of including Sam as a character the entire show would be better, so bravo to these two for writing for the underdog I say.

This was basically the best episode since Sera Gamble got fed up with the SPN fandom and went and got a sensible job, or since Ask Jeeves anyway ...

Yeah ok, even I don't know if I am being serious at this stage.

The flashbacks were really bad.
# E 2015-03-26 19:01
Wha?!?!? You LIKED it? OMG…eilf, I am stunned. This was simply the worst, most awful, embarrassingly bad episode since Man's Best Friends with Benefits. I'm trying to decide which is worse… This, MBFWB, Taxi Driver or Mannequin 3: The Reckoning… all but one of those eps is by R-L/B. I was squirming in my seat during the nuns scenes, especially the flashbacks, it was like watching a Harlequin Romance come to life… where was Fabio? And the main nun? She was so bloody awful I could barely stand to listen to her. What was up with her ponderous line delivery? It took her so long to get the dialog out I wondered if she was brain dead or something. She weighed down…..every…. single…………..lin e……..zzzzzz. And in what century did they get their habits from? Nuns haven't dressed like that since 1930.

And eilf, I know you like Rowena… but OMG she was soooooo bad! The scenes with her and Teryl Rothery were cringeworthy. And I LIKE Teryl Rothery (yeah! Stargate!) But its almost like Ruth Connell sucked all the life out of her in those scenes. And I really could have done without multiple scenes of two unpleasant characters basically being unpleasant to one another for a prolonged period. I wish that Rowena's little spell had backfired on her and they'd both ended up as hamsters running away on their little wheel and humping in the corner.

eilf!! you and I haven't disagreed for YEARS!! The earth has spun off its axis! :o
# st50 2015-03-26 19:10
I'm with you, E. We may need to stage an intervention. Get your Dr. Pepper ready! ;)

Darlin', eilf. You know I love you girl, and usually we see pretty nearly eye-to-eye on things. But I gotta disagree - aside from some improved Sam scenes - this was an unmitigated disaster.
And Rowena is just WAY too camp for Supernatural. Sorry.
Boring. And just plain bad.
The only reason I rank it higher than TaxiDriver is that the canon trashing here was less significant.
# eilf 2015-03-26 20:15
E and ST50 I entirely deny that I have a problem.... entirely. ;)
No intervention is required! And I am not drinking that stuff. Give me some CoolAid!
(I suspect Cool Aid is something i wouldn't like either)
# st50 2015-03-26 20:22
It's worse than I thought, E! She's delusional.... Or possessed, maybe......
# eilf 2015-03-26 20:39
Head spinning, plate throwing, the whole 9 yards ... or is that poltergeists?

SPN needs to do an episode about how poltergeists are what reapers turn into after they die, I can come up with some names of writers who could write the episode ...
# st50 2015-03-26 20:44
With eilf in the role of the reaper/polterge ist? (You've already got the moves, apparently)
# eilf 2015-03-26 20:54
# st50 2015-03-26 20:59
From the back, it could be you! ;)
# eilf 2015-03-26 21:19
LOL ok ONE of us is delusional, and NOW I am not sure which :D
# E 2015-03-26 21:25
I'm afraid the Dr. Pepper would finish her off more that it would bring her round!
# percysowner 2015-03-26 19:11
Although this episode bored my socks off, nothing will trump black woman wearing a dog collar and calling a white man master toying with bestiality. MBFWB will always make my worst based on shear offensiveness.
# E 2015-03-26 19:28
Hi Percys…. I was trying to figure out which ep was worse, but they are all so bad equally in their own special ways. This episode was so campy and improbable, with such a trashy, pulpy backstory that I almost couldn't watch. Taxi Driver was a canon disaster and the most destructive episodes to established canon ever produced, basically re-writing the premise of the show simply for convenience sake. Then MBFWB.. the most racially offensive, derogatory mess every produced… and everyone involved all seemed completely ignorantly done, which to me is even worse than knowing you are being inappropriate… I mean how blind and social unaware ARE these people? Mannequin Three was just plain dreary… the J's phoned it in, and looked like they weren't having any fun at all. The story was a real downer and is on my list for the sheer depression factor. Ugh… the worst episodes of the series is a list I'd rather not see added to again any time soon.
# E 2015-03-26 19:34
Ooooooh and Bloodlines! How could I have forgotten. I guess that shows how much I wish THAT episode had never happened. Ok, then it's top 5 worst eps.

5) Mannequin Three:The Reconing
4) Bloodlines
3) Back in Black
2) Man's Best Friends With Benefits
1) Taxi Driver

Any of the top 3 could be shuffled around to take the No1 spot depending on my mood and disposition that day. ;)
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-26 20:05
So if I am reading this correctly, THIS DISASTER
is NOT on your list. interesting, very very.
# E 2015-03-26 20:52
I meant PAINT it Black for number three… ugh. Sorry . :D Back in Black is an ACDC song. It's way better than this episode!
# eilf 2015-03-26 20:12
+mutter+ I kinda like Taxi Driver ... Sam has entire scenes that are about him in Taxi Driver ....

Heh i just saw Samndean10's reply below, I think we may break both E and ST50 before we are done :D
# st50 2015-03-26 20:25
*rolls eyes and attempts not to vomit*
Yup. Broken. Straw. Camel. Back. Broken. :(
# st50 2015-03-26 20:25
*rolls eyes and attempts not to vomit*
Yup. Broken. Straw. Camel. Back. Broken. :(
# eilf 2015-03-26 20:32
Ok since I can actually feel E melting down through the ether (and ST50 too) ... let's clarify here. SamnDean10 hates this episode and I hate the overall theme of MBFWB, so it isn't as bad as y'all think

My all time worst episode for sheer offensiveness is 'Rock and a Hard Place' (closely followed by MBFWB). And the one I will never, ever, watch again is Southern Comfort.

I would complain about episodes involving canon destruction but the writers do that every week these days so there isn't time ... :P
# st50 2015-03-26 20:46
Oh, Kick a girl when she's down, why don't you!
Bringing up Southern Comfort like that. That's just cruel. ;)
# eilf 2015-03-26 21:00
It's therapy. All episodes have one that is worse! ;) (until you hit SC and, then, maybe not after that)

Ah, I remember the old days of the racist truck ... and the bugs ... good times! We could all gather round the campfire and agree that they were bad, but we loved em anyway, cause they were bad ... though come to think of it apparently everyone is in agreement about THIS episode (and Bloodlines) so maybe there is a new hope?
# E 2015-03-26 20:56
Heh…. I kinda liked Southern Comfort. I'm not even really sure why?
# st50 2015-03-26 21:03
Oh, E! Not you, too? You're both just playing with me, right?? :P

I think I need to start this day over. It's all gone wrong....
*sigh* ;)
# E 2015-03-26 21:29
Nope…. hated the resolution because Dean once again was made to look like a victim after treating Sam like total crap, hitting him and saying all that mean stuff and then he totally got a pass and didn't apologize or anything. Other than that tho… I liked Garth and the set up of the ep. and very much liked Sam standing up for himself and telling Dean to get bent. We need more of that Sam. Where did he go?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 21:34
Sorry eilf, you're on your own-I admitted to E that I don't actually like MBFWB. But why don't you like Southern Comfort? I liked that one. Please don't hate me for it.
# eilf 2015-03-27 00:02
I don't hate you ... but ... *deep breath, release* I may never forgive you.... (this is all being done at Rowena levels of drama BTW)
# E 2015-03-26 20:53
AAAAAAH!!!! Nooooooooooooo!
# eilf 2015-03-26 21:24
Ok you lost me as to what YOUR primal scream is referring to? (there is a lot of primal screaming on here nowadays). Is it the Taxi Driver thing? Heh if I explained what the best thing about Taxi Driver is for me I would actually get in even more trouble, but it connects to Southern Comfort's awfulness *she said cryptically*.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 21:46
Okay, call me dull-witted (you wouldn't be the first) but huh? I guess I'm just a big ole dummy like Sam but you got some splainin to do-please clarify.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 22:28
Like Cas, I'll just wait here for your response. I have a burning desire to know what your cryptic remark meant. I feel like E's hamster: my mind turning these two thoughts over and over--best thing about Taxi Driver, worst thing about SC. For the love of God, put me out of my misery!
# eilf 2015-03-26 22:32
Can't, it would get me in too much trouble :-)
Discussing Southern Comfort is always a bad decision too ... so I am deleting the rest of this post and shaking my head. Nope. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 22:50
# eilf 2015-03-26 23:54
Sorry I hope I didn't look like I am telling YOU to stop talking about something, I wasn't at all! I was telling myself not to, that's different! It won't stop me anyway :P
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-27 12:15
Okay, I will refrain from asking you about Southern Comfort which is apparently off limits (but why, why, WHY?- oops, that's not refraining). But how about you share your thoughts about Taxi Driver. I'm curious because most people seem to hate it, and while I acknowledge everything that was wrong with it, I still liked it. (heh, this is me craftily trying to get clues so I can figure out the SC issue).
# E 2015-03-26 22:02
Yes… my primal scream was for taxi driver…worst. episode. ever.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 19:20
I am so glad eilf liked the episode because your response was a hoot: "the earth has spun off its axis" indeed! Ooh, guess what E. I absolutely adored MBFWB! Now let me have it.
# E 2015-03-26 19:56
Please…. please tell me you are not serious………pleas e...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 21:09
No I'm not serious. It was pretty bad and just upended every previous depiction of witches. But I have a sneaking fondness for Taxi Driver despite the canon smashing and Bobby chiding Sam for not looking for Dean. Like eilf, I just liked all the Sammy time, and he was strong and capable. But mostly I loved the bro-hug at the end. I'm a sucker for a good bro-hug. Also, I liked Southern Comfort. Why does everyone hate that one?
# E 2015-03-26 21:47
I liked Southern Comfort too. Hated Taxi Driver for the wholesale annihilation of established show canon. HATED the whole reaper thing with a flaming passion and hated even more that Sam was made to be wrong about Benny The Good (even tho it has since been revealed that Benny probably did eat a few people while he was topside, thus making Sam right about him. But TPTB cut that part to preserve the Saint Dean aspect of the Dean and Benny relationship, cause god forbid Dean show an error in judgement). Then Sam FAILS Benny The Good and is forced to suck up to Dean about it as though he had no call to be suspicious in the first place. Because when Dean says trust a monster he's right and when Sam says trust a monster he's wrong. I also hated that getting into purgatory so easily made Sam look like a complete moron for not looking for Dean at the start of season 8 and the writers didn't even realize that they were creating that effect with their stupid rogue reapers and back door to hell. There were so many things to hate in this episode and it all outweighed the good for me. I can't help shake the feeling that this was a tremendous effort for this writing team, one of their BEST and they still got so much wrong and are continuously careless with the characters, the story and canon. Humph.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 22:10
Everything you say about Taxi Driver is true, but the thing that bothered me the most was that it made Cas, Crowley and everyone else in Season 6 look like such idiots for being unable to figure out how to get into Purgatory when all you needed to do was call your friendly neighborhood rogue reaper. Jeez, you'd think the king of hell would've known that. Nonetheless, I still liked it for the reasons I stated above. The heart likes what the heart likes :)
# percysowner 2015-03-26 22:18
Not only did Taxi Driver make Sam look like a moron, it made Cas and especially Crowley look like morons in season six. Crowley MISSED the fact that all he had to do was roll a stone and he'd get into Purgatory and have access to all those souls? Naomi, a low level bureaucratic angel, knew how to get into Purgatory but neither Cas nor Raphael, an Archangel, had the faintest clue? Taxi Driver totally destroyed the entire underlying premise of season six.
# eilf 2015-03-26 22:10
I wish that Rowena's little spell had backfired on her and they'd both ended up as hamsters running away on their little wheel and humping in the corner.
E stop writing hamsterfic ! ;) Hamsters are entitled to do whatever they like in the corners of their cage without people writing fanfic about them. It is bad enough what is being interpreted from Dean's confessional speech and from the fact that nowadays he eats cake when he used think he only liked pie (I wish I were kidding about that last one but ....)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 19:04
Okay, I concede that the (probably brief) return of smart, sassy Sam was welcome. He made the most of his fleeting appearance in the ep. And sure, he got the end of ep monologue this time, which Dean got at the end of the last ep. It is for those reasons that I put this ep above Bloodlines. But everything he said was so stale. " not a death sentence, don't give up, we'll figure it out." If they'd just added a few sentences like "I'm not going to lose you to the MOC, no matter what it takes! So don't bother trying to convince me otherwise," I would've been a happy camper. Well, a HAPPIER camper, because the rest of the ep still blew giant chunks. I have to admit, I did find it odd that along with the peek at sassy Sam we got to see him drive the impala. That seemed really odd to me because I cannot recall the last time Sam drove when Dean was actually in the car. Is this supposed to be a subtle signal that strong, assertive Sam is coming back with a vengeance? Because it takes a lot to wrestle the steering wheel away from Dean! If it was indeed such a signal, then I will look back more fondly, but still nauseously, on this episode. And yes, those flashbacks were hilariously bad. They almost seemed like a SNL skit they were so awful.
# E 2015-03-26 19:49
It's true… Sam got to speak up (finally) but did he say anything personal? Did he address how the MoC is affecting HIM? Did he express to Dean his own fears? Nope. It was all Dean focused; "don't give up," "we'll figure it out" "you can fight it" "you're doing great"…. not one thing about how this is effecting Sam at all. If we don't hear from Sam about how this is effecting him then we have no motivation for his actions. We need to hear it as you suggest: "I am not loosing you again Dean, I can't!" "I couldn't save you last time" "I almost died when you went to Purgatory and I thought you were dead" that type of thing so that we can understand Sam's drive. So although it was nice to hear Sam say some actual words and it was nice to see him save the day (by reading 600 year old hand written italian no less!), not be unconscious or strangled, and watch as he totally ignored dictatorial Dean's order to "burn the damned book Sammy!" we still haven't seen how any of this is directly affecting Sam himself or explains why Sam is so keen to save his brother. We can guess what that motivation is with a degree of certainty, but in order for Sam to have any kind of story that works we have to see WHY even if the why is pretty much what we thought it was. So for that smidge of Sam insight, I guess this episode falls to third worst of the series behind MBFWB and Taxi Driver.
# eilf 2015-03-26 20:46
But E that is my point, all the 'better' writers have had Jared do Sam eye-acting for god knows how many episodes now ...

Here we have actual evidence of Sam-who-speaks! A verbal Sam sighting! Yes I would like what he said to be ABOUT Sam. But baby steps, we don't want to scare the other writers! We might end up with a row of (Sam n) Dean rewritten-child hood episodes if they get spooked too badly.
# E 2015-03-26 21:01
Sorry Rowena and Harlequin Romance nuns killed it for me even with the teeny, tiny smidgen of real, talking Sam. And can I just say that I really, really disliked Dean in this episode? All of his worst traits were on display. I didn't find him one bit charming or funny; more creepy and irritating.
# eilf 2015-03-26 21:33
Me neither, but I haven't been finding the objectifying of women by Dean/the show funny or charming for a while now, to the extent that I am trying to work out what their angle is on it. New!Dean likes objectified asian women, fantasy porn stars, virginal women he thinks he can make change (both the church group and the nun) and college undergrads. And he will drag Sam on a 6 hour car ride so that he can get laid, and Sam can hang around waiting in a pub while he does it ... I honestly don't know whether we are supposed to be finding that a charming trait in him? I would like to think it is an effect of the mark.
Maybe people do (find it charming)? I know the porn-star episode had a good few people fighting its corner.
# percysowner 2015-03-26 21:55
To be fair Old!Dean worked on figuring out which teenaged girls in a high school where he was posing as a coach were "legal" as he oggeled them and the "legal" part may mean he was thinking of doing more (After School Special). Old!Dean also lied to a woman claiming to be a Hollywood director in order to get her in bed (Tall Tales). Both these actions were pretty sleezy, IMHO. Dean did seem to clean up his act with Lisa, although to be honest Old!Dean only remembered her as bendy and Gumby Girl. I wish Dean had held onto that emotional growth, but his actions aren't totally out of character from the Dean during the Kripke years.
# E 2015-03-26 22:08
It's not out of character, but more like a regression to season 1 & 2 Dean. Dean's attitude, although not exactly flattering was at least understandable in a 26/27 year old, but on a 37 year old? Ick.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 21:32
It's true. The terrible writers are like little baby deer that we must slowly coax into writing better scripts, especially for Sam. We must praise them for actually including Sam- 'here nice little writers, good little writers. Here's a treat for giving Sam some dialogue." We must speak our criticism VERY softly so we don't frighten them and provoke them into writing even worse scripts.
# eilf 2015-03-27 00:06
I see you understand the difficulty ....
# eilf 2015-03-26 21:13
You know it is very very clear to me what the purpose of having Sam ignore dictatorial Dean's order to "burn the damned book Sammy!" is, and having Sam making his own decisions again (finally). To the extent that I imagine that part of the episode is something they were told to write in and make a point of. And it is going to suck, because none of the last couple of seasons has been dealt with in the way the next season will undoubtedly be dealt with when it is Sam instead of Dean doing extreme things involving the supernatural.
But for the moment I am pretending that this was just a bad, campy, cheery episode that could (though I know it is hard to imagine it) have been worse.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 21:16
Oh my gosh, I hadn't thought of it but Sam must know how to read Italian! So the writing duo are (inadvertently) showcasing how smart our Sammy is! Now I hate the episode ever so slightly less.
# eilf 2015-03-26 21:36
they are not in the category that usually write Sam as dumb though? Sam is usually dumbed down or weakened for either Charlie's benefit or (occasionally) Dean's (and now Cole's apparently).
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 21:52
They don't actively dumb him down, but neither do they showcase his smarts. It is so rare that we see him display how smart and knowledgeable he is, and that's true of pretty much all of the writers. Remember the good old days when Sam would regularly figure things out and come up with creative solutions?
# E 2015-03-26 21:53
And every single time Adam Glass picks up a pen
# E 2015-03-26 21:53
And every single time Adam Glass picks up a pen
# eilf 2015-03-27 00:09
oh that man ... he shouldn't be allowed near a pen, at least when it comes to Sam.
# anonymousN 2015-03-27 13:11
Sam was IN this episode and nobody got to torture him and then call him Sammy, or accuse him of killing their mother, or make jokes about the death of the women he loved in his life, or strangle him. And he got to emote using words instead of just looks. And it was pointed out really thoroughly that just because Dean is unable to say 'thank you' or 'I'm sorry' or 'I need help' doesn't mean that Sam is undeserving of these things being said to him. And if all the so called 'better writers' did a better job of including Sam as a character the entire show would be better, so bravo to these two for writing for the underdog I say.
I just finished watching Hansel and gretel episode .Phew.This paragraph of yours gives me hope about Sam..but I have two more episodes to go through before I come to this and I do not know when I will get the mood to watch those two.
# E 2015-03-27 14:56
Well anonymous.. you'll really have to gird your loins to get through this episode, it's THAT bad. Ironically though, Sam being dismsissed as a character and excused out of the scene (which happens TWICE in this episode) actually ended up working to Sam's advantage here; he was made to look the least ridiculous out of any character on screen and did in fact figure things out on his own and saved the day! And as an extra special bonus, not only was he not unconscious or strangled OR tied up the whole episode, he wasn't even knocked over or shoved to the floor. That extra special treatment, usually reserved for Sam, actually went to Dean this episode. Welcome to Sam's world Deano.
# anonymousN 2015-03-27 13:27
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-26 14:25
I love this SPNfamily. You guys are making me laugh:D
The Universe always brings me back to WFB.
# tartysuz 2015-03-26 14:53
Do you think the Men of Letters reveal will be important in the finale?

Yes. Wait, is it possible that the lights on the MoL map indicate other bunkers?
Nogadamo Bhitia
# Nogadamo Bhitia 2015-03-26 15:24
That's a great thought. Other MOL bunkers. The witch implied there are MOLs still active. Did Abbadon get to them all? It's hard to believe that a woman in that time could have infiltrated all the MOL groups throughout the world. With the variety in this world's cultures, surely there were some misogynistic ones she couldn't penetrate and that are still active. I hope so and that someone like Charlie gets to break through any glass ceilings any MOLs still have.
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-26 15:36
Ask PERCYSOWNER about that because we were ''told'' they all had perished. WHO THE HELL KNOWS ;)
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 15:57
Oh my Chuck - if one survived what do you want to bet its in England - like the European Faction of Highlander or Buffy the Vampire Slayer!!! Ack! No.
# percysowner 2015-03-26 16:14
We were told that all but one of the MOL in the US were all killed by Abaddon, although we did find out that Magnus, at least, walked away and didn't die. No one ever said anything about branches outside the US. It seemed odd, because at least with the Campbells it was said they were fighting the supernatural when they came over on the Mayflower hinting that there were hunters in other countries. Personally I thought there should have been more MOL chapters, but since Azazel apparently didn't look for "special children" anywhere other than America, I just figured that it was part of the idea that only America counts in the show. There could be a story with other MOL bunkers. Perhaps they are setting that up. OTOH, we may never hear about them again.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 16:55
Actually I feel like surviving MOLs are starting to come out of the woodwork. First Magnus, then Cuthbert Sinclair, then the guy whose dark version was the wizard of Oz. If there are any more survivors it will seem nonsensical that they didn't regroup after the Abaddon slaughter and carry on the important work that they were born for and that apparently went back centuries. The Winchester bunker seems to be portrayed as the primary (or only) bunker, so maybe all of the confiscated witch lore/spells are hidden there, unless Cuthbert stole it all when he left the MOL. This could be a promising plot line, which indicates that TPTB will not follow up on it.
# njspnfan 2015-03-26 18:08
follow up? cough cough... souls stuck in the veil.... cough cough.... Adam in the cage.... cough cough :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-26 18:37
The souls in the veil issue is the one that drives me the most crazy. When last seen, ghostly Kevin (who the boys referred to as FAMILY) was accompanying Mama Tran home to... to do what? You'd think Sam and Dean would be a little bit curious, because I sure am. Has he gone vengeful and started running amuck? Is he in fact still in the veil? I really would like to find out!
# njspnfan 2015-03-26 18:52
even in this episode, they seem to have ignored it; the nun mentioned that she had run in to some harmless ghosts at the church that ultimately moved on to their final resting place.
# percysowner 2015-03-26 19:07
I must say, when the nun said she talked to ghosts and they were nice and then moved on, I thought, well I guess the little problem with the Veil is over. I mean it was a big deal for the one episode with Kevin and then we never heard about it again. It also makes me mad AGAIN that all these ghosts are gentle happy souls, but Bobby couldn't hold it together. What the heck is all that about?
# njspnfan 2015-03-27 12:18
Problem, what problem ??? :D:D:D

Yes, it is very unfortunate; that could have played out as a nice mini-mytharc for Sam, Dean, and Castiel. Fixing the problem with the souls stuck in the veil. Guess they had more important things to worry about, like 16th century finger painters.
# E 2015-03-27 15:00
hehehe... finger paint...HAH!
# AlyCat22 2015-03-26 15:47
When Charlie returns they can ask her! Ha! Seriously, that's an interestiing idea. Personally I hope it was a one and done by this lame writing team and that we will never hear of these other supposed MOL lairs again!!! ;) Didnt I read somewhere where there would be an ultimate fight at the bunker? I thought that was back when they first introduced the MOL? Anyone else remember hearing or reading anything like that?
# ThisOldBag 2015-03-26 18:01
I don't even know what to say here. My first thought was that I hoped they would occasionally bring Sam back for a guest appearance now and then. But that was purely my sarcasm and frustration. On second watch I thought I'd see if this is still the Sam & Dean hour. In the approx 45 minute run time I counted approx 17 minutes of Sam & Dean (or Sam or Dean). Most of that was Dean. I don't known ow that compares with the rest of this season but I might just try to find out. Are there any programs out there that can give me a transcript with timestamps? I know this was not the case in the early seasons, but it would be interesting to see just how much of a difference there is now.
Anyway, after last weeks snooze fest I was hoping for a bit more but I found myself catching up on Twitter and looking up the weather and...
What a shame.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-03-26 18:24
I couldn't believe it when I saw virtually the same scene again with Sam checking his phone in the car. Deja vu! Really writers?

I thought this episode okay. Thought maybe Sam would get possessed by the ghost and try to kill Dean but no no no, thats not how this season works! Sam's the secondary character. Nothing bad other than getting beat up would happen :>

I did like the last discussion Sam and Dean had where Sam basically goes "You told me to do something but it wouldn't work, but when I chose to do this it did work". But hasn't really gave more evidence for Sam going down a dark path. Maybe Rowena could trick him? ;)
# eilf 2015-03-27 00:22

# Russ 2015-03-27 06:11
# E 2015-03-27 06:35
Epic stink eye!
# NOLANOLA 2015-03-27 09:25
eilf and russ, you must be using some emojis that my computer
cant pick up. NOTHING is there. jsyk
# Russ 2015-03-28 02:46
We're posting SPN-related .gifs.

It's all I can do to amuse myself in lieu of an F-word and C-bomb tirade directed at Carter & Co. I don't want to get banned from this site :D