Nope, we're not talking about Frank Miller's comic story here. You know, I remember a time when I looked forward to Castiel's appearances and furthering of the season arcs...

Ok ok, to shake things up, I'm going to get all my complaining in FIRST, then end with everything positive I liked about this episode.

...There's a joke once in Seinfeld: "That offends you as a Jew?" "No it offends me as a comedian!" In a lot of ways these episodes have been angering me not as much as a fan but as a (hobbyist) writer. We'll have sequences or moments which are going good, developing organically then... WHAM slam on the breaks! Jump back on the script rails! Let's throw out all that "organic" stuff, sounds too much like quality and hard work.

Exhibit A: The opening bit with Dean, Sam, and Angel-Ride-Along (ARA) in the car. Well done discussion then Sam wakes up. He has a moment about "dude, I'm blacking out". Now this bit is getting interesting, it's developing something between the brothers... oh wait, they'll just quash it. Seriously look at the rest of the episode? If we cut out that bit, say... Sam assumes he woke up from a nap, does it change anything? No! At most it contributes to the audience fakeout near the end of the episode. That's just the clearest and most obvious example so you get my frame of reference when we get to...

Castiel. Oh Cas, when did you become infected with Spike-disease? The terrible infection where a character varies from episode to episode with no consistency. There is a small sliver of excuse with Cas as we conceptually go through periods of not seeing him where things could happen but the writers have to cover this with a line or some sort of sign acknowledging it. Otherwise it's just lazy writing. So now to demonstrate how badly Castiel's been done, let's do what I'll call, "Season 9 [so far] abridged."

  • Castiel - "Dean I wanna help!"
  • Dean- "No! You need to stay hidden!"
  • C- "I'ma gonna hide in the bunker now!"
  • D- "No! You have to go hide elsewhere!"
  • C- "kk, I'm hiding at gas station now."
  • D- "Dude, wtf? Why are you boring up your life?"
  • C- "kk, I'm going to hunt with you now."
  • D- "What are you doing? This is totally too risky for you!"
  • C- "But you said..."
  • D- "Look, I'm clearly playing the wife stereotype right now, which means everything you do is wrong."
  • C- "Even when I do what you tell me?"
  • D- "Especially doing what I tell you!"
  • C- "Did I mention about the reaper I slep-"
  • Fans- "SHUT UP ABOUT THE DAMN REAPERS!"
1 more episode to prove it and I'm declaring that a running joke of the season is that every episode makes "I'm no Angel" worse. (Though it seems like my retread may still have fit better with this episode - and I wrote it knowing nothing about this one.) Cas spends all his time running from angels and then... sends up a prayer? Hey remember that time Cas carved a sigil into his own chest to give Sam & Dean a clear path? Yeah, too bad he had like... no time to prepare one of those after sending up the prayer. (time enough for montage...) Sure he was hoping for a "decent" answerer but... no precautions for in case bad guys showed up? (WHICH THEY DID!) And it's a good thing Cas didn't bother waiting around to surprise Malachi, that might have been tactical, smart, and saved some trouble down the road. Writing 101: you don't make your villains seem more threatening when you have your heroes handicapping themselves. (Megas XLR got away with it because it's a comedy.)

Then Castiel vampire's out another angel's grace. Now I initially thought graces were sort of unique and tied to the originating angel but I could let this slide IF we had ANY acknowledgement and handwaving about how Cas can do this now but didn't when he had car-crash angel at his mercy in 9.01. I mean she was a definite enemy and this was a potential ally and Cas could have used the help for awhile, maybe set up an ambush for Malechi but just.... ARGH! The answer to a character's motivation, the "Why?" should never be "because it's in the script" (IITS). If grace stealing is so easy anyone can do it, why does Malachi bother with an organization? (Kind of goes against the "anarchist" motif, eh?) Why not just steal the grace from angels and build up your power, a la Castiel's move at the end/beginning of S6 & S7? Why kill Muriel right away? Why not take her grace for more power? If only Castiel knows about this and the others don't... how? Cas has always been on the "last to know" list with anything angel related. Here's an idea off the top of my head. Metatron shows up: "Cas... sorry about your grace. It's not reversible but as a show that we can still be friends, I can help you get a grace back..." Then in the scene: Boom! Cas recites a few words and plot hole plugged.

Now I do like that the show is trying to have a multifaceted conflict. The problem is... I'm losing interest in even watching it play out. Example: up until he kills Kevin, why is Metatron a villain? A lot of arguments one could make for that case would end up applying in principle to the series protagonists as well, meaning either Metatron isn't a villain or we've just gone into full on protagonist-centered morality (which I loathe). Hell the angels seem to have always been messing with people as far back as we've seen them so it's hard to have sympathy for... well as Dean would say, "a bunch of dicks". And unlike the past, now people can actually escape from these angels when they die (since the winged bastards won't be in heaven or hell). I was more disappointed that we didn't see Metatron try and ingratiate himself with our heroes (since he needs allies right now). It would have made the episode even more tense had say... Metatron checked in the bunker, then him or Sadreel let out Crowley and made Kevin's death look like the demon's fault. Straight up forcing the Winchesters to be your enemy just doesn't seem wise.

And falling from Heaven kills angels? I... I have so many questions on how that works! By Jabootu's horns the angel lore is such a gorram mess. By now it's getting to the point where, "What can or can't the angels do?" may as well just be answered with, "Whatever the damn plot requires!" The show's going to kill itself if they don't practice some discipline soon.

So what was good about this episode?

I'm angry about how those believers' faiths are being misused. But I'm counting that as "good" since I'm supposed to be horrified and angry about the angels' actions.

I'm not happy that Kevin died, but they at least pulled it off pretty well in a narrative sense. I was nearly screaming at my TV (or my mobile phone, where I was watching it), "That's what you get for making poor choices and screwing over your allies, Dean!" So while I wasn't thrilled with the consequences, I was glad there have been ACTUAL consequences towards Dean's bad choices of late.

I was hoping we'd get one of the little church ladies as the season villain as we've always had large or intimidating figures with the exception of S3 little-girl Lilith. The show's due for a foe that doesn't appear threatening. So I was pleased to see Curtis Armstrong return. He looks so tiny compared to moose-Padelecki in those scenes. I really hope we get to see a lot more from him and the writers utilize the "threat that doesn't look like a threat" to their full advantage. Kudos also to Curtis who's doing a great job with his role. The yellow-eyed-demon in S2 was always, I thought, one of the best examples of actually tempting someone to do wrong, but Metatron here may edge him out. They've done great so far of showing how one can end up evil through rationalizations. Of drawing closer to darkness inch by inch. See, it's when they pull off brilliant moments like that, which makes me angrier over some of the missteps. We know they can do better!

Not sure about the promo for the next episode. One figures that if Sam could grab hold of Satan and send him back to the box, a regular angel might notbe a challenge for him to kick out. But they established the sigil was changed so there's at least a possible explanation there. Though with that and the demon lock tattoo Meg put on him way back in S2, (and Satan) seems like Sam's body should really have some zoning laws by now.

In general good acting on everyone's part (even if poor Misha Collins can't get some decent writing to work with) and a few fine moments keep this episode from being too wretched, but it's still nowhere close to their best mid-season finales.

 

Comments  

anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-12-06 15:19
I don't know whether anyone has commented about this..
What if Gadriel did not let the serpent in?What if Metatron framed him because he was god's trusted one and now the lore is that Gadriel was the one responsible?Gad riel seemed very trusting (what I mean is trusts people very easily) and assumes the best of others intention and that played a part in his interaction with Metatron (especially the first).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-12-06 15:19
I don't know whether anyone has commented about this..
What if Gadriel did not let the serpent in?What if Metatron framed him because he was god's trusted one and now the lore is that Gadriel was the one responsible?Gad riel seemed very trusting (what I mean is trusts people very easily) and assumes the best of others intention and that played a part in his interaction with Metatron (especially the first).
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-12-06 16:58
@anonymousN

It's a possibility. Personally I think it's a clue about how the serpent got into the garden in the first place.

Serpent- "Let me in!"
Gadreel- "Uh... no?"
S- "Oh c'mon! Please? I won't do anything bad. I'll be your best friend!"
G- "Well... ok."
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-12-06 16:58
@anonymousN

It's a possibility. Personally I think it's a clue about how the serpent got into the garden in the first place.

Serpent- "Let me in!"
Gadreel- "Uh... no?"
S- "Oh c'mon! Please? I won't do anything bad. I'll be your best friend!"
G- "Well... ok."
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-12-06 17:40
regarding cas taking the angel grace. in all honesty i didn't think much of it. as to how come no other angels are doing that is basically because angels have no idea that's a possibility. . metatron wrote the tablets so i imagine he knows things that no other angel would know. stealing grace...that could be something that was part of the tablets which would be why no other angel would know about that. . the only reason cas knows about it is because it happened to him. that's my take on it anyway, so that didn't really bother me.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-12-06 17:40
regarding cas taking the angel grace. in all honesty i didn't think much of it. as to how come no other angels are doing that is basically because angels have no idea that's a possibility. . metatron wrote the tablets so i imagine he knows things that no other angel would know. stealing grace...that could be something that was part of the tablets which would be why no other angel would know about that. . the only reason cas knows about it is because it happened to him. that's my take on it anyway, so that didn't really bother me.
st50
# st50 2013-12-06 18:04
It was postulated in someone's comments that the whole 'stealing grace' idea was so repugnant that no angel would do it... hence the idea of Cas doing what he had to do (recurring theme this season).
I don't know. And honestly, I don't really care about ANY of the angels at the moment - except for evicting the smarmy creep angel currently residing in Sam.

I'm assuming that Sam can't currently take control of his body because first he wasn't aware of the possession, and second he is supposed to be rather weak (duct tape and safety pins).... Otherwise, I'd agree that the Sam who fought off Lucifer shouldn't be bothered by any lesser angel. (Zoning laws indeed! That made me laugh, Nate!)

So far, the general consensus seems to be that the angel war is kind of a dud plot - maybe it'll kick up somewhat now that Metatron is getting involved.
st50
# st50 2013-12-06 18:04
It was postulated in someone's comments that the whole 'stealing grace' idea was so repugnant that no angel would do it... hence the idea of Cas doing what he had to do (recurring theme this season).
I don't know. And honestly, I don't really care about ANY of the angels at the moment - except for evicting the smarmy creep angel currently residing in Sam.

I'm assuming that Sam can't currently take control of his body because first he wasn't aware of the possession, and second he is supposed to be rather weak (duct tape and safety pins).... Otherwise, I'd agree that the Sam who fought off Lucifer shouldn't be bothered by any lesser angel. (Zoning laws indeed! That made me laugh, Nate!)

So far, the general consensus seems to be that the angel war is kind of a dud plot - maybe it'll kick up somewhat now that Metatron is getting involved.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-06 21:00
Someone on livejournal noted that the motto of this writing team is We Do What We Want. The story needed Cas powered up, so WDWWW decided angel grace could be stolen. Now, in my head canon is that stealing grace is like cannibalism. You can kill someone who you are fighting, but eating them afterward is taboo. Although I agree Metatron shouldn't set Sam and Dean up as enemies, I don't think Dean knows Metatron and Gadreel are working together. As you pointed out, Gad is apparently going for Cas's former title of the last angel to know or not the brightest angel in the garrison.

I actually think protagonist centered morality has been around Supernatural for quite a while now. Personally I date it back to when Dean didn't know Sam was juicing his powers and he simply told Sam to not use his powers because they came from a demon and instead he should use the knife which CAME FROM A DEMON. If not then having Sam and Dean watch Cas blackmail Jimmy Novak into being his vessel and saying absolutely nothing about it, while getting (occasionally) upset about the fact that demons possess people.

I agree that Sam should be the reigning champ on expelling angels. I think that Gadreel has tucked Sam away so Sam has NO IDEA there is an angel that needs to be evicted. Gadreel has also been in Sam for a long time and has had time to consolidate his hold on Sam. There is speculation that Sam and Gadreel may have started to meld in some way. Certainly since Gad has been locked away since the dawn of man, he has not had much if any chance to use a vessel. He may not be able to set boundaries between him and Sam and since we have never seen an angel release control of a vessel and then take it back in cycles we have no idea if this is like the normal angel possession or not. One of the first things Gad heard in regard to human relations is "There's no me if there's no you". He may be taking that way too much to heart and believe that about Sam and himself.

I do think one issue will be that is sounds as if Gad hasn't healed Sam much, if at all. So driving him out may be an issue. I don't know if Sam would object and I want him to make that decision, but I do want him to be the one to make it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-06 21:00
Someone on livejournal noted that the motto of this writing team is We Do What We Want. The story needed Cas powered up, so WDWWW decided angel grace could be stolen. Now, in my head canon is that stealing grace is like cannibalism. You can kill someone who you are fighting, but eating them afterward is taboo. Although I agree Metatron shouldn't set Sam and Dean up as enemies, I don't think Dean knows Metatron and Gadreel are working together. As you pointed out, Gad is apparently going for Cas's former title of the last angel to know or not the brightest angel in the garrison.

I actually think protagonist centered morality has been around Supernatural for quite a while now. Personally I date it back to when Dean didn't know Sam was juicing his powers and he simply told Sam to not use his powers because they came from a demon and instead he should use the knife which CAME FROM A DEMON. If not then having Sam and Dean watch Cas blackmail Jimmy Novak into being his vessel and saying absolutely nothing about it, while getting (occasionally) upset about the fact that demons possess people.

I agree that Sam should be the reigning champ on expelling angels. I think that Gadreel has tucked Sam away so Sam has NO IDEA there is an angel that needs to be evicted. Gadreel has also been in Sam for a long time and has had time to consolidate his hold on Sam. There is speculation that Sam and Gadreel may have started to meld in some way. Certainly since Gad has been locked away since the dawn of man, he has not had much if any chance to use a vessel. He may not be able to set boundaries between him and Sam and since we have never seen an angel release control of a vessel and then take it back in cycles we have no idea if this is like the normal angel possession or not. One of the first things Gad heard in regard to human relations is "There's no me if there's no you". He may be taking that way too much to heart and believe that about Sam and himself.

I do think one issue will be that is sounds as if Gad hasn't healed Sam much, if at all. So driving him out may be an issue. I don't know if Sam would object and I want him to make that decision, but I do want him to be the one to make it.
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-07 00:24
Quoting nappi815:
regarding cas taking the angel grace. in all honesty i didn't think much of it. as to how come no other angels are doing that is basically because angels have no idea that's a possibility. . metatron wrote the tablets so i imagine he knows things that no other angel would know. stealing grace...that could be something that was part of the tablets which would be why no other angel would know about that. . the only reason cas knows about it is because it happened to him. that's my take on it anyway, so that didn't really bother me.


That's a theory, plus Cas seemed unaware that it would even work, look at his face in the scene. Plus he even tells Dean he's unsure of what staling the grace entails. Also rewatching the scene, it kind of looked the other angels had their throats slit too, makes me wonder if he stole more than Theo's grace. Plus grace has only ever been described as an energy, that's all. And energy is transferable, so I think it fits.

I have no problem with it, just like I had no problem when they retconned reapers with Tessa saying she can look however she wants, even though nothing like that was mentioned in the first reaper appearance. In fact people would probably be complaining about the canonocity (is this even a word?) of "In My Time of Dying" if it was shown this season.
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-07 00:24
Quote:
regarding cas taking the angel grace. in all honesty i didn't think much of it. as to how come no other angels are doing that is basically because angels have no idea that's a possibility. . metatron wrote the tablets so i imagine he knows things that no other angel would know. stealing grace...that could be something that was part of the tablets which would be why no other angel would know about that. . the only reason cas knows about it is because it happened to him. that's my take on it anyway, so that didn't really bother me.
That's a theory, plus Cas seemed unaware that it would even work, look at his face in the scene. Plus he even tells Dean he's unsure of what staling the grace entails. Also rewatching the scene, it kind of looked the other angels had their throats slit too, makes me wonder if he stole more than Theo's grace. Plus grace has only ever been described as an energy, that's all. And energy is transferable, so I think it fits.

I have no problem with it, just like I had no problem when they retconned reapers with Tessa saying she can look however she wants, even though nothing like that was mentioned in the first reaper appearance. In fact people would probably be complaining about the canonocity (is this even a word?) of "In My Time of Dying" if it was shown this season.
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-12-07 00:31
When I first started thinking about the angel grace stealing, I got a headache. The best thing to do is ignore the whole thing, because there is no explanation that will be forthcoming anytime soon.

The whole angel storyline has only come up in the one other episode these two writers wrote, so I'm not convinced it will be all that important. I have noticed that in past seasons, none of the other writers have picked up on anything these two have brought up.
So far this season, even Cas has been removed from that storyline -- except for killing a couple of angels. Now that he is juiced up again, he may take over that story, and I won't like that at all, since I regular or not, I still consider Cas a support character.

I was very disappointed in Malachi, Gad's a dummy not worth rooting for, Bart is a poor imitation of Dick Roman, and Metatron is a weasel. I can't stand any of them, so unless the show hooks the angel storyline up to Dean in some way (Sam being useless right now), I'd just as soon that it become the next dropped plot -- sooner rather than later.

Completely agree with you on Cas, but I think he's been shoehorned into the show since S4 ended. Unless he's with Dean, and I do like that pairing, I'm not invested in Cas' character at all. I found the whole bumbling human story boring and slow, and all of a sudden, the magic grace stealing thing....No! Not going there. I'm still wondering whether little Jimmy just forgot about his wife and kid and if Cas forgot that he was married for a year when he was Emmanuel, so I need not be reminded of the reaper banging and the joy found in the banging.

I wondered why Metatron didn't try to kill Dean. As it stands, Dean is Metatron's biggest threat, so why kill Kevin (since another prophet is supposed to be activated) instead of Dean. All he has managed to do is tick Dean off, and Dean can be a juggernaut when ticked off. Story-wise, killing Kevin, instead of Dean doesn't make sense to me.

My final thought is that I found the episode fairly exciting and that it opened up a lot of possibility for some good storytelling in the second half. I just don't know if this stable of writers can pull it off. I have my doubts. I also have no idea where the season is going and who are the major players. I hope it's the two Winchesters, and I hope all the threads come together in some coherent way by the end of the season.
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-12-07 00:31
When I first started thinking about the angel grace stealing, I got a headache. The best thing to do is ignore the whole thing, because there is no explanation that will be forthcoming anytime soon.

The whole angel storyline has only come up in the one other episode these two writers wrote, so I'm not convinced it will be all that important. I have noticed that in past seasons, none of the other writers have picked up on anything these two have brought up.
So far this season, even Cas has been removed from that storyline -- except for killing a couple of angels. Now that he is juiced up again, he may take over that story, and I won't like that at all, since I regular or not, I still consider Cas a support character.

I was very disappointed in Malachi, Gad's a dummy not worth rooting for, Bart is a poor imitation of Dick Roman, and Metatron is a weasel. I can't stand any of them, so unless the show hooks the angel storyline up to Dean in some way (Sam being useless right now), I'd just as soon that it become the next dropped plot -- sooner rather than later.

Completely agree with you on Cas, but I think he's been shoehorned into the show since S4 ended. Unless he's with Dean, and I do like that pairing, I'm not invested in Cas' character at all. I found the whole bumbling human story boring and slow, and all of a sudden, the magic grace stealing thing....No! Not going there. I'm still wondering whether little Jimmy just forgot about his wife and kid and if Cas forgot that he was married for a year when he was Emmanuel, so I need not be reminded of the reaper banging and the joy found in the banging.

I wondered why Metatron didn't try to kill Dean. As it stands, Dean is Metatron's biggest threat, so why kill Kevin (since another prophet is supposed to be activated) instead of Dean. All he has managed to do is tick Dean off, and Dean can be a juggernaut when ticked off. Story-wise, killing Kevin, instead of Dean doesn't make sense to me.

My final thought is that I found the episode fairly exciting and that it opened up a lot of possibility for some good storytelling in the second half. I just don't know if this stable of writers can pull it off. I have my doubts. I also have no idea where the season is going and who are the major players. I hope it's the two Winchesters, and I hope all the threads come together in some coherent way by the end of the season.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-07 06:35
I believe Cas had human vulnerabilities but wasn't actually a human. He was technically an angel without his powers. I also think of an angel's grace like a human's soul and so he stole Theo's soul. Hence the barbarian comment when he was talking to Dean. I'm choosing not to look at this one too closely since I like Cas as an angel with powers and thought it was actually kind of a clever way to power him back up.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-07 06:35
I believe Cas had human vulnerabilities but wasn't actually a human. He was technically an angel without his powers. I also think of an angel's grace like a human's soul and so he stole Theo's soul. Hence the barbarian comment when he was talking to Dean. I'm choosing not to look at this one too closely since I like Cas as an angel with powers and thought it was actually kind of a clever way to power him back up.
Karen
# Karen 2013-12-07 08:07
Hi Nate
I also was wondering why Cas would be praying, since he is on the Most Wanted list in the Angel world. But I took it he had become desperate and lonely.
I have to admit I thought it was real cool when Cas took the Angel’s grace, as to why he never did it earlier to Hael, I would have to go with the consensus that stealing ones grace is a Taboo in the Angel world hence his ‘I did what I had to do’. I remember thinking when Uriel had taken Anna’s grace that it came across as a despicable act and he had only stole it from her sacred tree.
Now I do wonder what will happen to Cas when he does finally retrieve his own grace back. Does he expel the other Angel’s first or can he retain both. Kind of a Highlander thing.
As for Castiels Spike-disease, I didn’t have an issue with it. In I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here, Dean told him to stay hidden as Cas was on the Angel hit list and with being human it made him more at risk. In I’m No Angel, Zeke had given Dean the ultimatum about keeping Cas away from him, so Dean had to send Cas away. In Heaven Can’t Wait, Dean had gone to Cas purposely alone to get more info on these killings and once he met up with Cas, he wanted and needed his help. In Holy Terror, Sam/Zeke/Gad was with Dean when they found Cas was working on the same case, so Dean had to convince Cas that he didn’t need to get involved in order to keep Sam/Zeke/Gad and Cas apart.
I do wonder if Crowley knew that there was an Angel in Sam or at least something was wrong with him and that is why he said there wasn’t a reverse spell in the Tablets and why he didn’t want Sam’s blood.

Angels perishing in the fall does have me scratching my head to some degree. Cas had stated once that in his true image he was larger than the Chrysler Building and Zack had said he had 7 heads, so their true form does seem invincible. However Cas has died twice, not by the angel sword but by being blown to pieces by Lucifer and Chuck’s Archangel, so maybe they are not as indestructible as they seem, or maybe it’s because he was in a human vessel, and this makes them less powerful. We did see the angels falling in human form and some landed very hard and who’s to say it was only their wings that got burnt while entering the earth’s atmosphere. But then one could question were the angels falling in human form because they were already in human vessels or are they just shown this way so we the audience could relate better to them.
Like I said scratching my head here.

I too really hate that they killed Kevin. I guess even though a new prophet will be established, he/she will not have the tablets to work from as Gad took them. I guess Metatron couldn’t risk what Kevin may have retained from the tablets if he let him live.
I also agree Dean will suffer the consequences of his actions and poor choices. However I still feel for him as I do understand why he did it.
However I feel worst for Sam, being violated the way he has. I can only imagine how he’s going to feel when he learns that Kevin died by his hands, despite it being out of his control and knowledge.

Your ‘Sam's body should really have some zoning laws by now’ had me laugh. I do believe if Sam had any knowledge of being possessed and wasn’t being held together by duct tape and safety pins he would have been able to expel the Angel with no problem.

On the whole I really liked this episode so I would give it 4 out of 5 Rock Salt Bullets/Shells.

Thanks for the review and sorry for the long response, it’s been a while since I have had the time to comment like this.
Karen
# Karen 2013-12-07 08:07
Hi Nate
I also was wondering why Cas would be praying, since he is on the Most Wanted list in the Angel world. But I took it he had become desperate and lonely.
I have to admit I thought it was real cool when Cas took the Angel’s grace, as to why he never did it earlier to Hael, I would have to go with the consensus that stealing ones grace is a Taboo in the Angel world hence his ‘I did what I had to do’. I remember thinking when Uriel had taken Anna’s grace that it came across as a despicable act and he had only stole it from her sacred tree.
Now I do wonder what will happen to Cas when he does finally retrieve his own grace back. Does he expel the other Angel’s first or can he retain both. Kind of a Highlander thing.
As for Castiels Spike-disease, I didn’t have an issue with it. In I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here, Dean told him to stay hidden as Cas was on the Angel hit list and with being human it made him more at risk. In I’m No Angel, Zeke had given Dean the ultimatum about keeping Cas away from him, so Dean had to send Cas away. In Heaven Can’t Wait, Dean had gone to Cas purposely alone to get more info on these killings and once he met up with Cas, he wanted and needed his help. In Holy Terror, Sam/Zeke/Gad was with Dean when they found Cas was working on the same case, so Dean had to convince Cas that he didn’t need to get involved in order to keep Sam/Zeke/Gad and Cas apart.
I do wonder if Crowley knew that there was an Angel in Sam or at least something was wrong with him and that is why he said there wasn’t a reverse spell in the Tablets and why he didn’t want Sam’s blood.

Angels perishing in the fall does have me scratching my head to some degree. Cas had stated once that in his true image he was larger than the Chrysler Building and Zack had said he had 7 heads, so their true form does seem invincible. However Cas has died twice, not by the angel sword but by being blown to pieces by Lucifer and Chuck’s Archangel, so maybe they are not as indestructible as they seem, or maybe it’s because he was in a human vessel, and this makes them less powerful. We did see the angels falling in human form and some landed very hard and who’s to say it was only their wings that got burnt while entering the earth’s atmosphere. But then one could question were the angels falling in human form because they were already in human vessels or are they just shown this way so we the audience could relate better to them.
Like I said scratching my head here.

I too really hate that they killed Kevin. I guess even though a new prophet will be established, he/she will not have the tablets to work from as Gad took them. I guess Metatron couldn’t risk what Kevin may have retained from the tablets if he let him live.
I also agree Dean will suffer the consequences of his actions and poor choices. However I still feel for him as I do understand why he did it.
However I feel worst for Sam, being violated the way he has. I can only imagine how he’s going to feel when he learns that Kevin died by his hands, despite it being out of his control and knowledge.

Your ‘Sam's body should really have some zoning laws by now’ had me laugh. I do believe if Sam had any knowledge of being possessed and wasn’t being held together by duct tape and safety pins he would have been able to expel the Angel with no problem.

On the whole I really liked this episode so I would give it 4 out of 5 Rock Salt Bullets/Shells.

Thanks for the review and sorry for the long response, it’s been a while since I have had the time to comment like this.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 10:32
I think that Cas stealing angel grace is going to come back to haunt him. To me it seems like it might be a form of cannibalism so there are various things relating to that that might happen:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
2) The grace might go 'bad'. Stealing a grace corrupts it and thereby corrupts the consumer - creating a bad angel (Demon?)
3) Stealing grace (especially multiple ones) is like what happens with the Wendigo and Castiel becomes a monster - a Wendangel.
4) With real people eating human brains can result in a brain damaging dieease called Kuru - so maybe Castiel will go crazy again?

Or maybe it is just a handwave to get Castiel his groove back?
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 10:32
I think that Cas stealing angel grace is going to come back to haunt him. To me it seems like it might be a form of cannibalism so there are various things relating to that that might happen:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
2) The grace might go 'bad'. Stealing a grace corrupts it and thereby corrupts the consumer - creating a bad angel (Demon?)
3) Stealing grace (especially multiple ones) is like what happens with the Wendigo and Castiel becomes a monster - a Wendangel.
4) With real people eating human brains can result in a brain damaging dieease called Kuru - so maybe Castiel will go crazy again?

Or maybe it is just a handwave to get Castiel his groove back?
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-12-07 12:26
eilf - "Wendangel" :lol:
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-12-07 12:26
eilf - "Wendangel" :lol:
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2013-12-07 12:43
Cannibal Cas would be funny. I can see him staggering around with his arms out, groaning 'Graaaaaccceee!
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2013-12-07 12:43
Cannibal Cas would be funny. I can see him staggering around with his arms out, groaning 'Graaaaaccceee!
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-12-07 12:46
Quote:
regarding cas taking the angel grace. in all honesty i didn't think much of it. as to how come no other angels are doing that is basically because angels have no idea that's a possibility. . metatron wrote the tablets so i imagine he knows things that no other angel would know. stealing grace...that could be something that was part of the tablets which would be why no other angel would know about that. . the only reason cas knows about it is because it happened to him. that's my take on it anyway, so that didn't really bother me.
If Malachi isn't stealing grace because it's "taboo"... that sort of makes him a poor anarchist doesn't it? :D

Quote:
It was postulated in someone's comments that the whole 'stealing grace' idea was so repugnant that no angel would do it... hence the idea of Cas doing what he had to do (recurring theme this season).
I don't know.

I have to admit I thought it was real cool when Cas took the Angel’s grace, as to why he never did it earlier to Hael, I would have to go with the consensus that stealing ones grace is a Taboo in the Angel world hence his ‘I did what I had to do’. I remember thinking when Uriel had taken Anna’s grace that it came across as a despicable act and he had only stole it from her sacred tree.
The big question, however is how is "this time" more desperate for Cas than with Hael? Here he's at least gained a new friend so, if stealing grace is so bad, he could use the pal to get out, then stab in the back for death. With Hael, not only was Cas alone, in the middle of nowhere, with NO allies, but Hael was threatening the angel equivalent of rape. If the show had shown Cas growing more desperate... more alone with each episode up until now *cough* then it might be more believable. Otherwise it kind of comes off like Cas is willing to show more mercy to an attempted rapist than to a new friend who did what he had to do to stay undercover.

Quote:
Someone on livejournal noted that the motto of this writing team is We Do What We Want. The story needed Cas powered up, so WDWWW decided angel grace could be stolen.
Hah! I'm so using WDWWW in future reviews (and I hear it in Cartman's voice too...)

Quote:
I actually think protagonist centered morality has been around Supernatural for quite a while now. Personally I date it back to when Dean didn't know Sam was juicing his powers and he simply told Sam to not use his powers because they came from a demon and instead he should use the knife which CAME FROM A DEMON. If not then having Sam and Dean watch Cas blackmail Jimmy Novak into being his vessel and saying absolutely nothing about it, while getting (occasionally) upset about the fact that demons possess people.
Good point, though I'm not sure the show and its world was as accommodating back then. It may be me but I think even back then it was sort of acknowledge that this wasn't great.

Quote:
That's a theory, plus Cas seemed unaware that it would even work, look at his face in the scene. Plus he even tells Dean he's unsure of what staling the grace entails. Also rewatching the scene, it kind of looked the other angels had their throats slit too, makes me wonder if he stole more than Theo's grace. Plus grace has only ever been described as an energy, that's all. And energy is transferable, so I think it fits.
THAT it was done, I have no problem with, HOW it was done, without even the fig-leaf of gibberish words strung together as a spell, is what I'm objecting to.

Quote:
I have no problem with it, just like I had no problem when they retconned reapers with Tessa saying she can look however she wants, even though nothing like that was mentioned in the first reaper appearance. In fact people would probably be complaining about the canonocity (is this even a word?) of "In My Time of Dying" if it was shown this season.
*sigh* Ok Mick, I'm going to put down this "Tessa" stuff once and for all.
  • That was reapers' SECOND episode. Angels have had a few more than one with all this.
  • Tessa's retcon/revelation did not open up PLOT problems in the PREVIOUS appearance. Castiel steals grace... why didn't he do it way back in 9.01 when it would have been even more useful than now? IITS
  • Tessa's retcon also made sense logically, organically and with the prior appearance. Change appearance? Sure that makes sense with what they have to do. Why didn't the previous reaper we see do it? Because he was working under protest.


Quote:
I also was wondering why Cas would be praying, since he is on the Most Wanted list in the Angel world. But I took it he had become desperate and lonely.
It wasn't the prayer itself (you're right, he's desperate and lonely) it's that he prayed, and then made NO preparations for getting and answer. It'd be like every time the Winchesters summoned a crossroads demon WITHOUT painting a devil's trap somewhere.

Quote:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
Actually from S5, we have some idea (you know, if canon meant anything to these people). Recall that when Cas was cut off from heaven, his "batteries" started to run low, he became more and more mortal (probably the equivalent to his grace running out). Now that the angels have been cast out of heaven, they should start suffering similar problems (though it would take awhile). So a grace stolen a month from now would have less "juice" to it than one stolen today. The longer the angels are out of heaven and the more they use their powers (which adds more irony to the war), the more "mortal" they should become. Which could even lead to the leaders or other starting to resort to cannibalize their followers to try and keep power a bit longer.

@Manzanita - That's HILARIOUS! Someone get Misha to do a vid of that now!
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-12-07 12:46
Quote:
regarding cas taking the angel grace. in all honesty i didn't think much of it. as to how come no other angels are doing that is basically because angels have no idea that's a possibility. . metatron wrote the tablets so i imagine he knows things that no other angel would know. stealing grace...that could be something that was part of the tablets which would be why no other angel would know about that. . the only reason cas knows about it is because it happened to him. that's my take on it anyway, so that didn't really bother me.
If Malachi isn't stealing grace because it's "taboo"... that sort of makes him a poor anarchist doesn't it? :D

Quote:
It was postulated in someone's comments that the whole 'stealing grace' idea was so repugnant that no angel would do it... hence the idea of Cas doing what he had to do (recurring theme this season).
I don't know.

I have to admit I thought it was real cool when Cas took the Angel’s grace, as to why he never did it earlier to Hael, I would have to go with the consensus that stealing ones grace is a Taboo in the Angel world hence his ‘I did what I had to do’. I remember thinking when Uriel had taken Anna’s grace that it came across as a despicable act and he had only stole it from her sacred tree.
The big question, however is how is "this time" more desperate for Cas than with Hael? Here he's at least gained a new friend so, if stealing grace is so bad, he could use the pal to get out, then stab in the back for death. With Hael, not only was Cas alone, in the middle of nowhere, with NO allies, but Hael was threatening the angel equivalent of rape. If the show had shown Cas growing more desperate... more alone with each episode up until now *cough (www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/129-season-nine/18191-how-i-m-no-angel-could-have-been-divine)* then it might be more believable. Otherwise it kind of comes off like Cas is willing to show more mercy to an attempted rapist than to a new friend who did what he had to do to stay undercover.

Quote:
Someone on livejournal noted that the motto of this writing team is We Do What We Want. The story needed Cas powered up, so WDWWW decided angel grace could be stolen.
Hah! I'm so using WDWWW in future reviews (and I hear it in Cartman's voice too...)

Quote:
I actually think protagonist centered morality has been around Supernatural for quite a while now. Personally I date it back to when Dean didn't know Sam was juicing his powers and he simply told Sam to not use his powers because they came from a demon and instead he should use the knife which CAME FROM A DEMON. If not then having Sam and Dean watch Cas blackmail Jimmy Novak into being his vessel and saying absolutely nothing about it, while getting (occasionally) upset about the fact that demons possess people.
Good point, though I'm not sure the show and its world was as accommodating back then. It may be me but I think even back then it was sort of acknowledge that this wasn't great.

Quote:
That's a theory, plus Cas seemed unaware that it would even work, look at his face in the scene. Plus he even tells Dean he's unsure of what staling the grace entails. Also rewatching the scene, it kind of looked the other angels had their throats slit too, makes me wonder if he stole more than Theo's grace. Plus grace has only ever been described as an energy, that's all. And energy is transferable, so I think it fits.
THAT it was done, I have no problem with, HOW it was done, without even the fig-leaf of gibberish words strung together as a spell, is what I'm objecting to.

Quote:
I have no problem with it, just like I had no problem when they retconned reapers with Tessa saying she can look however she wants, even though nothing like that was mentioned in the first reaper appearance. In fact people would probably be complaining about the canonocity (is this even a word?) of "In My Time of Dying" if it was shown this season.
*sigh* Ok Mick, I'm going to put down this "Tessa" stuff once and for all.
  • That was reapers' SECOND episode. Angels have had a few more than one with all this.
  • Tessa's retcon/revelation did not open up PLOT problems in the PREVIOUS appearance. Castiel steals grace... why didn't he do it way back in 9.01 when it would have been even more useful than now? IITS
  • Tessa's retcon also made sense logically, organically and with the prior appearance. Change appearance? Sure that makes sense with what they have to do. Why didn't the previous reaper we see do it? Because he was working under protest.


Quote:
I also was wondering why Cas would be praying, since he is on the Most Wanted list in the Angel world. But I took it he had become desperate and lonely.
It wasn't the prayer itself (you're right, he's desperate and lonely) it's that he prayed, and then made NO preparations for getting and answer. It'd be like every time the Winchesters summoned a crossroads demon WITHOUT painting a devil's trap somewhere.

Quote:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
Actually from S5, we have some idea (you know, if canon meant anything to these people). Recall that when Cas was cut off from heaven, his "batteries" started to run low, he became more and more mortal (probably the equivalent to his grace running out). Now that the angels have been cast out of heaven, they should start suffering similar problems (though it would take awhile). So a grace stolen a month from now would have less "juice" to it than one stolen today. The longer the angels are out of heaven and the more they use their powers (which adds more irony to the war), the more "mortal" they should become. Which could even lead to the leaders or other starting to resort to cannibalize their followers to try and keep power a bit longer.

@Manzanita - That's HILARIOUS! Someone get Misha to do a vid of that now!
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-12-07 12:51
Oh I meant to add:

Sadreel: It makes some sense since, back when Henry Winchester time traveled, the boys were surprised by this ability and he mentions about being a "Legacy" (which they should be too). Apparently being the vessels that archangels could use makes the boys a bit more special than just regular humans. Meaning that it could be plausible that angels might get a recharge (albeit slower) from riding along in Dean/Sam similar to what they get from a visit (or connection, however it works) to heaven.

That or maybe after having Lucifer in him (and even being locked up with Lucifer AND Micheal), Sam's soul has saturated in so much archangel power that angels can leach off some of that for boosts.

Either way, it could be humorous to watch the angels all start fighting over the Winchesters' bodies like a bunch of fangirls.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-12-07 12:51
Oh I meant to add:

Sadreel: It makes some sense since, back when Henry Winchester time traveled, the boys were surprised by this ability and he mentions about being a "Legacy" (which they should be too). Apparently being the vessels that archangels could use makes the boys a bit more special than just regular humans. Meaning that it could be plausible that angels might get a recharge (albeit slower) from riding along in Dean/Sam similar to what they get from a visit (or connection, however it works) to heaven.

That or maybe after having Lucifer in him (and even being locked up with Lucifer AND Micheal), Sam's soul has saturated in so much archangel power that angels can leach off some of that for boosts.

Either way, it could be humorous to watch the angels all start fighting over the Winchesters' bodies like a bunch of fangirls.
eilf1
# eilf1 2013-12-07 13:09
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Cannibal Cas would be funny. I can see him staggering around with his arms out, groaning 'Graaaaaccceee!


I love this image :D
eilf1
# eilf1 2013-12-07 13:09
Quote:
Cannibal Cas would be funny. I can see him staggering around with his arms out, groaning 'Graaaaaccceee!
I love this image :D
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 13:15
Quote:
Quote:
Quote: 1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
Actually from S5, we have some idea (you know, if canon meant anything to these people). Recall that when Cas was cut off from heaven, his "batteries" started to run low, he became more and more mortal (probably the equivalent to his grace running out). Now that the angels have been cast out of heaven, they should start suffering similar problems (though it would take awhile). So a grace stolen a month from now would have less "juice" to it than one stolen today. The longer the angels are out of heaven and the more they use their powers (which adds more irony to the war), the more "mortal" they should become. Which could even lead to the leaders or other starting to resort to cannibalize their followers to try and keep power a bit longer.
Erm...just to clarify ... I meant that there are no limits to how badly that could go :D
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 13:15
Quote:
Quote:
Quote: 1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
Actually from S5, we have some idea (you know, if canon meant anything to these people). Recall that when Cas was cut off from heaven, his "batteries" started to run low, he became more and more mortal (probably the equivalent to his grace running out). Now that the angels have been cast out of heaven, they should start suffering similar problems (though it would take awhile). So a grace stolen a month from now would have less "juice" to it than one stolen today. The longer the angels are out of heaven and the more they use their powers (which adds more irony to the war), the more "mortal" they should become. Which could even lead to the leaders or other starting to resort to cannibalize their followers to try and keep power a bit longer.
Erm...just to clarify ... I meant that there are no limits to how badly that could go :D
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-07 13:22
Regards Sam as an angel vessel-My take on Swan Song on the way Sam took control over Lucifer was this: Sam was fighting for control while Luci was beating on Dean, horrified at what was happening to his brother. Luci/Sam's eyes were caught by the toy soldier, which triggered a flood of memories-of love. That epic love that we all watch the show for flooded Luci's/Sam's senses. That brotherly love, which Luci once had, was so painful to him that he withdrew long enough for Sam to take control and jump into the pit. I do not think at that time Sam had the strength to simply kick Satan out. I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-07 13:22
Regards Sam as an angel vessel-My take on Swan Song on the way Sam took control over Lucifer was this: Sam was fighting for control while Luci was beating on Dean, horrified at what was happening to his brother. Luci/Sam's eyes were caught by the toy soldier, which triggered a flood of memories-of love. That epic love that we all watch the show for flooded Luci's/Sam's senses. That brotherly love, which Luci once had, was so painful to him that he withdrew long enough for Sam to take control and jump into the pit. I do not think at that time Sam had the strength to simply kick Satan out. I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-07 13:30
Quote:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
One of the other unfortunate parts of Cas stealing grace is that in season five one of Cas's storylines was about how his grace was running down because he was cut off from heaven. His angelic grace battery could no longer recharge. In The End he was all tapped out, but even as the season wore on he was less and less able to use his grace. So if TPTB actually care about canon (HA!HA!!HA!HA!H A!" just kidding) all the angels should be losing power, not just Castiel. However, I'm fairly sure that no one will remember this fact and the angels will be strong and powerful no matter how long they are cut off from heaven.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-07 13:30
Quote:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
One of the other unfortunate parts of Cas stealing grace is that in season five one of Cas's storylines was about how his grace was running down because he was cut off from heaven. His angelic grace battery could no longer recharge. In The End he was all tapped out, but even as the season wore on he was less and less able to use his grace. So if TPTB actually care about canon (HA!HA!!HA!HA!H A!" just kidding) all the angels should be losing power, not just Castiel. However, I'm fairly sure that no one will remember this fact and the angels will be strong and powerful no matter how long they are cut off from heaven.
st50
# st50 2013-12-07 13:34
Quoting TeresaPezzino:
. ...... I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.


Yes. That's exactly how I saw SwanSong. It was - everybody sing now - the power of love!

And Yes. PLEASE! Let Sam save himself!

MC- Love it!

And PLEASE let the writers/PTB think about canon as well as some of the folks here do. (It is the right season for miracles, right? ;-) )
st50
# st50 2013-12-07 13:34
Quote:
. ...... I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.
Yes. That's exactly how I saw SwanSong. It was - everybody sing now - the power of love!

And Yes. PLEASE! Let Sam save himself!

MC- Love it!

And PLEASE let the writers/PTB think about canon as well as some of the folks here do. (It is the right season for miracles, right? ;-) )
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2013-12-07 13:40
I really want Sam to save Sam too. He's had so little agency lately.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2013-12-07 13:40
I really want Sam to save Sam too. He's had so little agency lately.
alysha
# alysha 2013-12-07 15:09
Quoting TeresaPezzino:
Regards Sam as an angel vessel-My take on Swan Song on the way Sam took control over Lucifer was this: Sam was fighting for control while Luci was beating on Dean, horrified at what was happening to his brother. Luci/Sam's eyes were caught by the toy soldier, which triggered a flood of memories-of love. That epic love that we all watch the show for flooded Luci's/Sam's senses. That brotherly love, which Luci once had, was so painful to him that he withdrew long enough for Sam to take control and jump into the pit. I do not think at that time Sam had the strength to simply kick Satan out. I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.


I have always thought this too. Sam didn't overpower Lucifer as much as Lucifer loosened his hold when flooded by brotherly love...and then Sam grabbed hold and won.

I'm not sure I want Gadreel evicted so easily. That's dull and predictable. I also would love for Gadreel to be playing Metatron and have a higher goal in mind.
alysha
# alysha 2013-12-07 15:09
Quote:
Regards Sam as an angel vessel-My take on Swan Song on the way Sam took control over Lucifer was this: Sam was fighting for control while Luci was beating on Dean, horrified at what was happening to his brother. Luci/Sam's eyes were caught by the toy soldier, which triggered a flood of memories-of love. That epic love that we all watch the show for flooded Luci's/Sam's senses. That brotherly love, which Luci once had, was so painful to him that he withdrew long enough for Sam to take control and jump into the pit. I do not think at that time Sam had the strength to simply kick Satan out. I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.
I have always thought this too. Sam didn't overpower Lucifer as much as Lucifer loosened his hold when flooded by brotherly love...and then Sam grabbed hold and won.

I'm not sure I want Gadreel evicted so easily. That's dull and predictable. I also would love for Gadreel to be playing Metatron and have a higher goal in mind.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 15:24
Quote:
If Malachi isn't stealing grace because it's "taboo"... that sort of makes him a poor anarchist doesn't it? :D
Maybe the angels don't really know what an anarchist is? :D

Reminds me of a quote from the Brittas Empire:

Quote:
Do you want to donate money for a birthday card for the queen?
No the Queen is the anti-christ.
Excuse Me, WHAT?
Wait, no...The Queen is an anarchist.
What?
Sorry. What do you call an out of date thing?
An anachronism.
Yes. That's It. The Queen is an anachronism.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 15:24
Quote:
If Malachi isn't stealing grace because it's "taboo"... that sort of makes him a poor anarchist doesn't it? :D
Maybe the angels don't really know what an anarchist is? :D

Reminds me of a quote from the Brittas Empire:

Quote:
Do you want to donate money for a birthday card for the queen?
No the Queen is the anti-christ.
Excuse Me, WHAT?
Wait, no...The Queen is an anarchist.
What?
Sorry. What do you call an out of date thing?
An anachronism.
Yes. That's It. The Queen is an anachronism.
mick
# mick 2013-12-07 15:43
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?


One of the other unfortunate parts of Cas stealing grace is that in season five one of Cas's storylines was about how his grace was running down because he was cut off from heaven. His angelic grace battery could no longer recharge. In The End he was all tapped out, but even as the season wore on he was less and less able to use his grace. So if TPTB actually care about canon (HA!HA!!HA!HA!HA!" just kidding) all the angels should be losing power, not just Castiel. However, I'm fairly sure that no one will remember this fact and the angels will be strong and powerful no matter how long they are cut off from heaven.
The difference is the angels were merely kicked out, they had their wings clipped, they weren't cut-off from Heaven.

Also, Lucifer shouldn't have had any powers since he was officially booted out, and thus should have been cut off from Heaven.
mick
# mick 2013-12-07 15:43
Quote:
Quote:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
One of the other unfortunate parts of Cas stealing grace is that in season five one of Cas's storylines was about how his grace was running down because he was cut off from heaven. His angelic grace battery could no longer recharge. In The End he was all tapped out, but even as the season wore on he was less and less able to use his grace. So if TPTB actually care about canon (HA!HA!!HA!HA!HA!" just kidding) all the angels should be losing power, not just Castiel. However, I'm fairly sure that no one will remember this fact and the angels will be strong and powerful no matter how long they are cut off from heaven.
The difference is the angels were merely kicked out, they had their wings clipped, they weren't cut-off from Heaven.

Also, Lucifer shouldn't have had any powers since he was officially booted out, and thus should have been cut off from Heaven.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-07 20:11
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
I really want Sam to save Sam too. He's had so little agency lately.

Seems like he has had very little agency most of his life. It is why he ran away so much over the years.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-07 20:11
Quote:
I really want Sam to save Sam too. He's had so little agency lately.
Seems like he has had very little agency most of his life. It is why he ran away so much over the years.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2013-12-07 20:13
Quoting TeresaPezzino:
Regards Sam as an angel vessel-My take on Swan Song on the way Sam took control over Lucifer was this: Sam was fighting for control while Luci was beating on Dean, horrified at what was happening to his brother. Luci/Sam's eyes were caught by the toy soldier, which triggered a flood of memories-of love. That epic love that we all watch the show for flooded Luci's/Sam's senses. That brotherly love, which Luci once had, was so painful to him that he withdrew long enough for Sam to take control and jump into the pit. I do not think at that time Sam had the strength to simply kick Satan out. I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.


Interesting. My take was always that when Sam saw the toy soldier, the flood of memories made him let go of his anger for a moment and THAT'S when Lucifer lost his hold. He said that he needed Sam's rage and when we saw them in the broken mirror scene, Sam was threatening him and angry and you know while Lucifer was beating Dean, he had to be screaming with fury inside. But the moment he saw that toy, his anger was supplanted by the memories and Lucifer couldn't hold on.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2013-12-07 20:13
Quote:
Regards Sam as an angel vessel-My take on Swan Song on the way Sam took control over Lucifer was this: Sam was fighting for control while Luci was beating on Dean, horrified at what was happening to his brother. Luci/Sam's eyes were caught by the toy soldier, which triggered a flood of memories-of love. That epic love that we all watch the show for flooded Luci's/Sam's senses. That brotherly love, which Luci once had, was so painful to him that he withdrew long enough for Sam to take control and jump into the pit. I do not think at that time Sam had the strength to simply kick Satan out. I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.
Interesting. My take was always that when Sam saw the toy soldier, the flood of memories made him let go of his anger for a moment and THAT'S when Lucifer lost his hold. He said that he needed Sam's rage and when we saw them in the broken mirror scene, Sam was threatening him and angry and you know while Lucifer was beating Dean, he had to be screaming with fury inside. But the moment he saw that toy, his anger was supplanted by the memories and Lucifer couldn't hold on.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-07 20:19
Quoting mick:
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?


One of the other unfortunate parts of Cas stealing grace is that in season five one of Cas's storylines was about how his grace was running down because he was cut off from heaven. His angelic grace battery could no longer recharge. In The End he was all tapped out, but even as the season wore on he was less and less able to use his grace. So if TPTB actually care about canon (HA!HA!!HA!HA!HA!" just kidding) all the angels should be losing power, not just Castiel. However, I'm fairly sure that no one will remember this fact and the angels will be strong and powerful no matter how long they are cut off from heaven.


The difference is the angels were merely kicked out, they had their wings clipped, they weren't cut-off from Heaven.

Also, Lucifer shouldn't have had any powers since he was officially booted out, and thus should have been cut off from Heaven.
I think that is the REAL reason Luci was booted out - he twisted humans into the first demons to spite 'God's creation' and used their souls for power. He conveniently leaves that out of his speeches while he rants about how he was punished for loving God too much. That actually makes me think of Gadreel - I read something somewhere about him being the father of Cain and Abel. Perhaps that is why HE was booted out of the Garden and imprisoned - Luci manipulated him into sleeping with Eve (thus he let the serpent into the garden) and fathering Cain and Abel, whose bloodlines Sam and Dean supposedly carry. What a tangled web the writers weave!
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-07 20:19
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1) He might only be consuming the grace and not infused by it - in other words he can use it but he will use it up and then need another dose. Then he would have to steal another one. How badly could that scenario possibly go?
One of the other unfortunate parts of Cas stealing grace is that in season five one of Cas's storylines was about how his grace was running down because he was cut off from heaven. His angelic grace battery could no longer recharge. In The End he was all tapped out, but even as the season wore on he was less and less able to use his grace. So if TPTB actually care about canon (HA!HA!!HA!HA!HA!" just kidding) all the angels should be losing power, not just Castiel. However, I'm fairly sure that no one will remember this fact and the angels will be strong and powerful no matter how long they are cut off from heaven.
The difference is the angels were merely kicked out, they had their wings clipped, they weren't cut-off from Heaven.

Also, Lucifer shouldn't have had any powers since he was officially booted out, and thus should have been cut off from Heaven.
I think that is the REAL reason Luci was booted out - he twisted humans into the first demons to spite 'God's creation' and used their souls for power. He conveniently leaves that out of his speeches while he rants about how he was punished for loving God too much. That actually makes me think of Gadreel - I read something somewhere about him being the father of Cain and Abel. Perhaps that is why HE was booted out of the Garden and imprisoned - Luci manipulated him into sleeping with Eve (thus he let the serpent into the garden) and fathering Cain and Abel, whose bloodlines Sam and Dean supposedly carry. What a tangled web the writers weave!
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-07 20:23
Quoting sylvia37:
Quoting TeresaPezzino:
Regards Sam as an angel vessel-My take on Swan Song on the way Sam took control over Lucifer was this: Sam was fighting for control while Luci was beating on Dean, horrified at what was happening to his brother. Luci/Sam's eyes were caught by the toy soldier, which triggered a flood of memories-of love. That epic love that we all watch the show for flooded Luci's/Sam's senses. That brotherly love, which Luci once had, was so painful to him that he withdrew long enough for Sam to take control and jump into the pit. I do not think at that time Sam had the strength to simply kick Satan out. I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.


Interesting. My take was always that when Sam saw the toy soldier, the flood of memories made him let go of his anger for a moment and THAT'S when Lucifer lost his hold. He said that he needed Sam's rage and when we saw them in the broken mirror scene, Sam was threatening him and angry and you know while Lucifer was beating Dean, he had to be screaming with fury inside. But the moment he saw that toy, his anger was supplanted by the memories and Lucifer couldn't hold on.


I think they both fit perfectly together! Luci fed off of Sam's anger and when the anger went and the love flooded in, he recoiled and let go.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-07 20:23
Quote:
Quote:
Regards Sam as an angel vessel-My take on Swan Song on the way Sam took control over Lucifer was this: Sam was fighting for control while Luci was beating on Dean, horrified at what was happening to his brother. Luci/Sam's eyes were caught by the toy soldier, which triggered a flood of memories-of love. That epic love that we all watch the show for flooded Luci's/Sam's senses. That brotherly love, which Luci once had, was so painful to him that he withdrew long enough for Sam to take control and jump into the pit. I do not think at that time Sam had the strength to simply kick Satan out. I think he fought hard, never giving up until the right opportunity came along. I know the promo looks like Crowley possibly saves Sam, but I hope it is Sam who saves Sam.
Interesting. My take was always that when Sam saw the toy soldier, the flood of memories made him let go of his anger for a moment and THAT'S when Lucifer lost his hold. He said that he needed Sam's rage and when we saw them in the broken mirror scene, Sam was threatening him and angry and you know while Lucifer was beating Dean, he had to be screaming with fury inside. But the moment he saw that toy, his anger was supplanted by the memories and Lucifer couldn't hold on.
I think they both fit perfectly together! Luci fed off of Sam's anger and when the anger went and the love flooded in, he recoiled and let go.
mary9930
# mary9930 2013-12-08 09:13
Quoting Nate Winchester:


Either way, it could be humorous to watch the angels all start fighting over the Winchesters' bodies like a bunch of fangirls.


1st you need them to argue over which brother is selfish and which is a the source of all that is good & just :-)

Everyone has such great comments @ Swan Song, the Garden of Eden, & how grace works. I don't even feel the need to rant @ angels ;-)
mary9930
# mary9930 2013-12-08 09:13
Quote:


Either way, it could be humorous to watch the angels all start fighting over the Winchesters' bodies like a bunch of fangirls.
1st you need them to argue over which brother is selfish and which is a the source of all that is good & just :-)

Everyone has such great comments @ Swan Song, the Garden of Eden, & how grace works. I don't even feel the need to rant @ angels ;-)
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-08 17:06
If Gadreel was in a cell and didn't know about the angels all falling that seems to indicate he is out of the loop on news. So he wouldn't necessarily be aware that humans don't normally have the sorts of conversations with angels Dean was having while he was praying in episode 1.

So that sort of looks like he didn't know what he was letting himself in for picking a Winchester...

He possibly did just think he had a reasonably reliable host body. But Sam has turned out to be a super-vessel. (I can't help wondering from an angel point of view is it a bit like the bunker? You expect nothing much and you get this giant building). Dean and Sam have turned out to be getting-in-the- middle-of-misch ief-once-a-week people and so all in all it is not a great hideout.
But now he has taken over Sam and killed Kevin, and he doesn't realise that 'optimistic despite all evidence to the contrary' Dean is not the only (or principle) variety of Dean. I hope next episode comes back like this:
Quote:
"You know all those angels, all the demons, all those SOB’s…they just don’t get it do they Sammy?"
"No they don’t Dean."
"You see, we’re the ones you should be afraid of."
Of course I ALSO hope that Sam gets HIMSELF free from Gadreel and doesn't just need rescuing... but I am not holding my breath on the writers giving us that one....
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-08 17:06
If Gadreel was in a cell and didn't know about the angels all falling that seems to indicate he is out of the loop on news. So he wouldn't necessarily be aware that humans don't normally have the sorts of conversations with angels Dean was having while he was praying in episode 1.

So that sort of looks like he didn't know what he was letting himself in for picking a Winchester...

He possibly did just think he had a reasonably reliable host body. But Sam has turned out to be a super-vessel. (I can't help wondering from an angel point of view is it a bit like the bunker? You expect nothing much and you get this giant building). Dean and Sam have turned out to be getting-in-the- middle-of-misch ief-once-a-week people and so all in all it is not a great hideout.
But now he has taken over Sam and killed Kevin, and he doesn't realise that 'optimistic despite all evidence to the contrary' Dean is not the only (or principle) variety of Dean. I hope next episode comes back like this:
Quote:
"You know all those angels, all the demons, all those SOB’s…they just don’t get it do they Sammy?"
"No they don’t Dean."
"You see, we’re the ones you should be afraid of."
Of course I ALSO hope that Sam gets HIMSELF free from Gadreel and doesn't just need rescuing... but I am not holding my breath on the writers giving us that one....
Nate
# Nate 2013-12-12 14:34
Can someone explain the falling Angles to me? When they fell, we saw them, wings burning off, falling into water, etc. but then they DON'T have bodies, and are light flying around until they get a willing host? So what fell from the sky then? #colormeconfuse d
Nate
# Nate 2013-12-12 14:34
Can someone explain the falling Angles to me? When they fell, we saw them, wings burning off, falling into water, etc. but then they DON'T have bodies, and are light flying around until they get a willing host? So what fell from the sky then? #colormeconfuse d
Nate
# Nate 2013-12-12 14:36
Quoting Nate Winchester:
If Malachi isn't stealing grace because it's "taboo"... that sort of makes him a poor anarchist doesn't it? :D


All is fair in love and war?
Nate
# Nate 2013-12-12 14:36
Quote:
If Malachi isn't stealing grace because it's "taboo"... that sort of makes him a poor anarchist doesn't it? :D
All is fair in love and war?
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-17 00:23
Quoting Nate:
Can someone explain the falling Angles to me? When they fell, we saw them, wings burning off, falling into water, etc. but then they DON'T have bodies, and are light flying around until they get a willing host? So what fell from the sky then? #colormeconfused


You could see that as some angels were inhabiting vessels while in Heaven, and others were not.
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-17 00:23
Quote:
Can someone explain the falling Angles to me? When they fell, we saw them, wings burning off, falling into water, etc. but then they DON'T have bodies, and are light flying around until they get a willing host? So what fell from the sky then? #colormeconfused
You could see that as some angels were inhabiting vessels while in Heaven, and others were not.