WARNING!!!! If you haven't seen the Season 8 finale yet, read no further! There will be LOTS of spoilers and discussion about the episode, and trust me, you want to see it for yourself first. If you've watched, then come in and let's talk about what happened.
Was that not incredible? I enjoyed the whole episode, but the last 10 minutes were SO GOOD. All of the angels falling from heaven. That is so insane. And awesome. And horrible and beautiful and lots of adjectives. But mostly it was unexpected. Raise your hand if you thought the angels were all going to fall from heaven because I want to high five you right now.
Don't get me wrong. As much as I enjoyed the finale, there are still a lot of questions and holes and continuity errors in Season 8 that haven't been sufficiently explained for me. Maybe we'll get some answers in season 9. (And man, it feels good to know there's a season 9) But I'll let those slide for now. Perhaps I'll revisit them again when it's closer to the start of the new season. For now, let's talk about some of the questions tonight's episode raises. Boy, I've never wished I could have a rewatch before I write these articles more than tonight. Whatever, let's do this and wildly speculate anyway!
Questions To Mull Over During the Long Hellatus
1. So is Metatron up in heaven all alone with a bunch of souls? That is a scary thought. Presumably he worked it out somehow so that he wouldn't get expelled from heaven when the rest of the angels were cast out. And God only cast out one angel. Metatron cast out thousands. Do you think God is going to make him answer for his crimes? Or will it be Castiel that makes Metatron pay?
2. What does the angel tablet actually say about trials? Can it help re-open the gates of heaven? And if Metatron wrote the tablets, won't he know how to subvert whatever's on them, if he has to?
3. Sam was filling with energy during the trials, so what's going to happen to that energy now? He was supposed to just be the conductor, pouring the energy into Crowley to cure him and get himself killed in the process. So what happens now? Also, why are his hands always getting patched up by Dean? Stigmata references? Something else?
4. How pissed is Abaddon going to be when she comes back next year?
5. Since when does jamming a drill into the back of an angel's head kill it? Do you think Naomi was really dead or just incapacitated before getting expelled from heaven? Are all those angels going to have their memories intact since they didn't choose to fall and become human? How guilty is Cass going to feel about the angels being cast from heaven, too? Very guilty is my guess. Will the other angels blame him? Will he be hunted again?
6. What else would set off the alarms in the bunker like that, do you think? The mass demon exodus at the end of season 2?
7. If God is all-knowing, etc, why would he choose Metatron as his scribe if He knew Metatron was going to go batty and expel all the angels from heaven? (These sort of things make my brain melt)
The Lucifer Theory
I can't write a review without some sort of theory, right? Here's tonight's: Kevin is going to translate the angel tablet next season, and it's going to reveal a way to open heaven again. And that way is they will have to retrieve Lucifer and send him back to heaven. How poetic would that be, right? To restore the fallen angels to heaven you first need to restore the first fallen angel. So they'll have to get Lucifer out of the box (and oh, hey, maybe Adam while they're at it) which is why hell didn't get closed this season. It needs to be open for next season!
And now it's time to bullet point the rest of the episode.
- The "Carry On Wayward Son" montages are the best, though.
- "It's not a date till I've cried." Jody, please don't be dead. Do NOT bring back another awesome female character just to kill her off, show! Don't you do it.
- Yes, Jody, he is hot. He's Mark Sheppard. I mean, clearly he's hot.
- No more killing. Aw, Cass.
- NOOOOOOOOO, surprise Bobby feels. The salvage yard survived the fire, huh? That is good to know.
- I like the severe camera angles they use in Naomi's place.
- I adore Crowley's love of gigantic scrolls.
- Dean is WAY more used to getting punched, Crowley. There's no way you're gonna win that fight.
- Wet paint is easy to scuff, though, so maybe dry off the floor before you paint that devil's trap under Crowley? No?
- DID WE NOT LEARN ABOUT WALKING AWAY FROM DEMONS LAST EPISODE, GUYS????
- "Why did the scribe suddenly come in from the shadows?" I liked that line a lot, don't know why.
- That was a great "He's right behind me, isn't he?" look on Dean's face when Sam walked up behind him as he was telling Cass Sam needed a babysitter.
- "You really think injecting me with human blood is going to make me human. What, did you read that on the back of a cereal box?"
- Noo, is Mrs. Tran really dead? Noo. Stop killing off all the lady characters, show!
- Ooh, the crucifix in the church with just the hands and feet is CREEPY. And that was a cool set.
- Stop being smart, Crowley! No biting Sam to try and escape. Also, Sam, go get a rabies shot just in case.
- Crowley singing David Bowie makes my life.
- "Hello, boys." "That's my line."
- "Talk first, stab later."
- Cupid's bow was so cute!
- Metatron, you little shit. You've been planning your revenge for so long now. And look how well it fell into place for you.
- Crowley should have a monologue in every episode.
- Mark Sheppard KILLED this episode. Losing his accent in the big monologue, then the scene where he asks Sam where to look for forgiveness.
- Naomi, this is what happens when you torture people and manipulate them. No one believes you when it counts. And this was the one time when you really needed everyone to believe you. Because you were right.
- "If you finish this trial, you're dead." "So?" No, that wasn't a painful line at all. Nope.
- Metatron took Cass' grace for a story. That little shit.
- How about that whole conversation between Sam and Dean, though, huh? Glorious.
- That ending, though. Sam is still sick. Castiel is human, and not by his choosing. The angels are falling from the sky. What a cliffhanger.
Whew, what a season. It had some ups and downs, but overall I liked it a lot. I'm looking forward to watching it all again. Anyway, tell me what you thought of the finale. Were you satisfied? Disappointed? Can't wait for the Hellatus to be over already? Let's talk about it!
Comments
That was a great episode. I really liked it. The entire cast was fantastic and the writing was some of the best all season.
Maybe Season 9 can now hit the ground running? That would be fun. (Fun? What is this 'fun' of which you speak?).
1) Singer Salvage Yard (totally lost it right there),
2) Sam/JP and Crowley/MS (both are always so amazing but truly took my breath away tonight), and
3) the Broments. There are no words....
Night all!! Wiped out...
Not the best season finale, but I think it was decent enough. And the cliffhanger leaves open so many possibilities. So I'll definitely be tuning in for season nine.
Mark Sheppard and Jared conveyed the agony their characters were feeling in a heart breaking way. And that may have been the best brother moment yet (at least one of the best of all time).
And despite conflict with the brothers in the first part of the season, there have been no other seasons where we got four- yes, four- Winchester hugs! Not a bad way to end the season at all!
Ok, I don't know that we KNOW the angels are now human. They are banished from heaven and 'fell', but are they powerless? I don't think we know yet. I too wonder if Metatron is just up there in heaven with all the good souls, making them tell him their 'stories'!
I think Sam will heal because he stopped glowing, then got that pain, then seemed able to regroup a little. I am curious as to what happens to Crowley. He was 'mostly' cured, contrite, sort of human. Does he go back to being a full demon again, or will he wish to be cured and try to find a way? Maybe Keving will be able to find a loophole on the demon tablet so they can finish curing Crowley. It would be fun to see, and he could go back to being deliciously evil later!
I think Jodi survived because Crowley had to keep the deal, so I suspect she stopped choking and came back in to dinner, wondering where her date went. At least I hope so.
I loved seeing the junk yard and Bobby's car...awww. So sad.
I loved the brother talk/cry/hug. Can these guys pull that stuff off or what?
I still just have to say that there are a lot of unanswered questions: Who was manipulating/wa tching Sam at the beginning when he left Amelia's. Who told Benny where the portal was to get Dean out? Where did the bread crumbs about 'perception' lead? Nowhere? To me, it would have been some sort of AU or mind-trick happening, but no, it never came to that. Did anyone else feel we were purposefully misled?
And how 'bout that Metatron? I called evil on him when I saw him. Too nice and unassuming. Cas trusted him way too easily. So glad Cas talked to Dean this episode and leveled with him.
I just loved it and I can't wait to see it again. It will be so hard to wait until October to see what happens!
Thanks for your great review!
Again, we got Sam's point of view, not just Dean's. So, maybe Carver can write for Sam, too, not just Edlund. That would be encouraging.
Love this director. He always hit some comical notes, especially with Dean, even in the darkest and most suspenseful episodes. The whole cast gave amazing performances from beginning to end. Some of the camera angles, the way the camera moved - awesome, just awesome!
Yes, that cross was creeepy!
Good night.
The ending of tonight's finale shows all the angels "falling" to earth and becoming human . . . Bobby Singer was recently rescued from Hell and sent to Heaven to be an angel . . .
Does this mean that SPN has found a way to bring Bobby back as a human??????!!!
Perhaps next year Bobby can contact a psychic too?
H-m-m-m-m . . . guess I am not the only one thinking this . . . http://screenrant.com/supernatural-season-9-bobby/
That scene with Dean and Cas at the bar: Is it wise to be drinking on the job? What show are you watching? Definite meta moment, and funny. One of things I love about SPN is how they work the humor in to leaven all the serious stuff.
Does anyone else think that Sam dosing Crowley with his own purified blood might be kickstarting Crowley's long lost humanity back into gear? When he started asking Sam where to even begin looking for forgiveness..di d that not sound like a SAM question??? Just wondering...
I have to say I wasn't surprised by Dean's reaction to the news that Sam would die if he finished the Trial. Despite Dean swearing that 'Nothing!' would stop them from closing down Hell...we've heard that speech before, in various versions. And every single time, when it means something bad happening to Sammy, Dean goes haywire and calls a screeching halt to things. Dean cannot function in a world without Sam, it's been proven time and time again. Same for Sam...everyone thought it was wrong that he didn't go looking for Dean during his time in Purgatory...wit h the disclosure of his Confession, that he considered his biggest sin to be letting Dean down over and over, I hope, now, everyone can finally see that Dean is Sam's whole world, brother/father/ best friend.. without Dean, Sam is lost.
Watching all the angels falling to earth, their wings burning away...I think they're mortal now. Whether they retain their angelic memories or not?....is an interesting thing I hope they explore in season 9. How is Cas's fall/mortality going to change his relationship with the brothers? Another very interesting thing I really hope they answer.
And with Crowley basically incommunicado at the moment, who's going to take over Hell? Abaddon? Let's face it, Abaddon was shocked to learn that Crowley was calling himself The King of Hell. She thought Dean was joking at first, remember? When she walked into that church and slugged Crowley, you could tell she was positively seething by that point. As a Demon Knight, she outranks him so to her, a 'salesman' as she called him, styling himself the King of Hell was insulting. Will be interesting to see what Abaddon does next.
And Metatron. Pretending to be so unassuming and helpful... very slick manipulation there. Then again, he's had eons to work on his revenge plans. Interesting how he feels that Naomi and the archangels forced him to flee Heaven. If I recall, when he was first telling his tale of woe to the brothers, he said he left BEFORE any of them said or did anything really...basica lly he ratted on himself, but in all the eons he spent walled up with books and stories, I honestly think he rearranged things in his own mind and convinced himself that THEY were to blame for everything, right down to 'forcing him to flee' and 'keeping him away from home'...almost like a spoiled child. And if he really DID sit at God's feet and took dictation, of course he was spoiled!! He had been singled out for something important, and what child DOESN'T think that something like that makes them 'special', so when it ends they will find someone or something to blame for losing that 'specialness' and no longer being a favored child.
Great episode.96myk
Hee, the angels will have to learn to live like the humans. That'll teach them for forgetting that they're supposed to be our guardians.
As for Sam, yikes! He didn't look like he was getting all that better, was he? No angel healing either. I wonder if the first episode of S9 will be showing his long, slow recovery.
I loved it all. And I think Carver tied in the Sam not looking for Dean perfectly. Sam was willing to sacrifice himself and finish the trials just because he didn't want to be a disappointment to Dean anymore. Wibble! He does feel guilty. He was hurt by the fact that Dean turned to Benny for support. It didn't make sense in prior episodes, but it did here.
As I said, a lot to absorb. Farewell Naomi! You had to go. It was your time. At least you went out doing the right thing.
Great acting, directing, script, effects.
Wow.
He never asked to be saved. He didn't want to be rescued. He made that perfectly clear. There is only 1 'person' responsible for Sam losing his soul and that is Cas.
Cas is the only one to blame for that, not Sam.
I really, really disliked, almost detested, Dean for saying that. It just proves, to me at least, that Dean is never going to forgive Sam for not being perfect.
I myself have been hurt that bad and have done the very same thing, which is why I can see Dean doing this instead of being merely petty. I hear myself saying something and then I am filled with guilt, because I hurt the other person in what they think is just spitefulness.
I think there may be more than one way to view people's actions. Yes, Dean's, but regular people's too. His actions, written the way I see them, aren't as uncommon as you might think.
Given the situation that is really the only acceptable answer for me really. Dean does hold onto resentment and people's past mistakes(and he's human, he's flawed that's okay), but to use them against Sam in that moment would be too far for me. Luckily st50, elif and Leah talked me down.
And I don't really think that Dean does hold Sam responsible for what his soulless body did but we often hold onto subconscious resentments that we're not even aware of. So the SC didn't bother me near as much because he was controlled by the specter and not thinking rationally.
And I get that Dean was very much hurt by what Sam did with Lilith and Ruby and his role in raising Lucifer and he had reason to be. And maybe on some level those things still reach out and give him a zap from time to time. So in that way I can understand his lingering anger despite the fact that Sam sacrificed himself to atone for those mistakes. But the soulless thing... geez Dean has zero call to feel hurt by that. I get that dealing with soulless Sam was difficult for Dean but Sam had no clue what was going on with him at that time and couldn't do anything about it even when he was made aware. And I am sorry, but I disagree with a few other posters here that it is just a reflection of his deep hurt because Dean has no right to feel hurt or wronged by the soulless situation. Sam was so blameless for the whole soulless thing that it DOES make Dean look petty and unforgiving IMO when he brings it up and lumps it together with things Sam actually did wrong like Lilith, Ruby and Lucifer. I am still not sure why the soulless issue is put together with the other issues as they are not the same thing.
As to why the soulless thing has been lumped in all season, I think is was a bad writing choice, as was a few other things earlier this year that didn't make sense.
Like I said, bringing up soulless thing in the SC rant didn't really bother me that much because people are often aware that they are holding on to a irrational resentment until something happens to bring it to the surface. But if the writers truly lumping that in with his past mistakes though Dean I will be pissed. Yes I think he has done enough to more than atoned for his past mistakes so I do think that Dean should start trusting him again but that one REALLY bothers me because the real Sam was still being tortured even if his body was up here.
X
Yeah, me too!
X
It's a slap in the face to both brothers when the writers make Dean say that it was Sam's fault he was soulless.
X
A slap to Sam who is the victim here , having been pulled out of the Cage without his soul through no fault of his own, but by the carelessness of Castiel ( who maybe just really wanted Sam's powerful soul for his own use ).
Sam himself didn't even realise that something was wrong with him.
X
It's also a slap in the face and an insult to Dean who is as intelligent as his brother, and would in no way hold Sam responsible for something that anyone can see was not his little brother's fault.
Dean should be hitting on Castiel whose fault it truly was and on Bobby too, who knew Sam was out of the Cage but neglected to mention it to his mourning big brother.
X
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If Sam was without his soul then he didn't have the ethical or moral judgment or sensibility to judge whether his actions were right or wrong.
We could compare him to a bear who acts out of pure instinct, without the ability to feel pity for his prey.
X
In this optic, Sam has NO blame for what he did without a soul. The fact that he now feels he needs to try and repair the wrongs he did back then, is due to having that soul back, along with all the moral implications involved.
X
The same thing applies to Bobby.
Sam was acting out of logic and self-preservati on, two things that obviously do not come from having a soul, but from our intellict and instinct.
Agreed.
Although I can't really see there being any hidden reason for Dean insisting on this soulless thing, except to pull it out now and then to pump up the brother conflict.
It's just stupid to blame Sam for somethig he had absolutely no blame for.
As for Sam and Dean being guardian angels, I would just about be fine with anything at this point, but up until now in the SPN universe, angels don't have souls, so neither Sam nor Dean would have had one to begin with, at least for now! :)
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Sam versus Dean stuff? Where did i mention that? I love both brothers equally, but I cetainly can't stand by when one of the two then gets accused injustly.
Both Sam and Dean have suffered and paid for any mistakes they have made and despite all the accusations that Carver has made them throw at each other this season, they have always loved and taken care of one another, and always will.
X
You speak of Castiel doing penance; if there is one character that has never suffered or made good for all the bad things he has done, that's Castiel; double-crossing , lying, betrayal, assassination of his best angel friends and colleagues. Decimating Heaven, hurting Sam and cruelly taking down his wall, etc etc. Nope, no penance there.
Dean about that and about Ruby and the demon blood and that seems to be a habit with Sam. Again and again Dean tries to get Sam to tell him the truth and Sam is always reluctant. If he were to tell Dean the truth, then, I am sure, Dean would try very hard to save Sam. But he can't if he doesn't know what is going on with Sam.
Dean is way off base here, IMHO.
The purpose of the confession was for Sam to confess those things HE felt sorry for, responsible for, not for Dean to suggest what Sam SHOULD feel sorry for. Sam didn't ask for forgiveness for being soulless, or ruby or Lucifer or Lilith in his confession, he asked for forgiveness for letting Dean down, the only thing that has ever mattered to him.
Just how far do we go with Sam and what he should confess or feel guilt for? there are mistakes he has done but being soulless wasnt one of them.
I'm amazed by the acting, I'm amazed by everything in this episode.
Just as I was finished thinking... why Metraton didn't disappear when the angels took him? Bang! it hit me... "bad guy"
Mark's acting, once again, superb!
This season Jared gave his best acting.
Jensen made a flawless, superb, awesome! transition to mature Dean, that I'm in love with him more than ever!
The scene with the brothers.... I'm still crying, I can believe how the tears where pouring out of my eyes!
The last part, the angels falling down, WOW!
I can only think on one theory. The Queen of Hell will be Abadon, Crowley will become the salesman again, since the fail cure left him kind of powerless and since only Abadon came to his call, that means she is controlling the other demons.
Great season! I think this season really brought back what we had lost the past two seasons, plus, we gained a bunker full of information and... A BUNKER! Thanks Guys. I can't wait for October!!! (with 3 exclamation points!)
Anna ripped out her grace, but still could hear the other angels, but I'm guessing since they are all human now there's no "angel radio" anymore? Otherwise they could at least communicate...? I hate that we have to wait for so long to get answers (or, more
A +!
God, that scene at the end. I haven't been that moved by a scene since S2. It truly felt like an emotional game-changer. I can't wait to see what character development it brings next season!
That wasn't a surprise - but Metatron going rogue, locking himself away in heaven and sending all the angels to earth - didn't he just do our boys a big favor? They should send him a fruit basket! No more angels, right? Except Metatron. But he doesn't scare me much.
AND... hmmmm... this may be why someone made sure one or both of the Winchesters is resistant to the Croatoan virus. Maybe that will be the angelic version of small pox.
I wonder if Cas will decide to try to fill Jimmy's shoes? If he becomes attached to the like Dean did with Lisa and Ben... and if he loses them like FutureDeam lost Bobby and Sam... maybe that will allow Cas to evolve into the replacement for FutureDean as we get even closer to The End.
Jodi lost her husband and son.
Jimmy has a wife and daughter "out there."
And Crowley lost someone too but didn't say who... and he's practically human, but not quite. Of course he could have been lying in order to get close enough to Jodi to slip her the hex bag... but I bet Crowley's story is going to parallel someone else's. But whose?
Nothing happened except for Castiel becoming human, something that was completely predictable and so boring. More angels, Yuck!
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I only watch for Sam and Dean, brothers in arms until the bitter end.
No-one can ever take their place although in season nine, I'm sure we will see very little of them, perhaps as wall-paper or if we're liucky, five minutes per episode, strictly apart because being together in the one scene is something to treasure now.
Even when Sam is going to do the last trial on his own, Carver makes Dean go off and leave him, something that Dean would never have done before.
Oh, my sweet brothers. My heart weeps for you!
X
Agreed.
Sam and Dean are the heart of the show for me and I'm sure for many others.
There is no other show on tv that gives us brothers who would DIE and LIVE for each other.
I hate it when they are forced apart by cheap contrived brother conflict, which has happened for the majority of this season, especially in the first half but even now it insinuates it's way into these later episodes.
X
I don't know how next season will turn out but more Castiel means less brothers, as 40 minutes is 40 minutes and can't be stretched.
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Supernatural under Carver will never again be the wonderful little show it was , when it was all about the brothers and we hung from their every word and glance and synchronised closing of the Impala's doors. Sigh!
X
Now we have to cut through the undergrowth of secondary characters to catch sight of the charismatic brothers.
Oh well, that's what fastforward is for, to jump to the brother moments. :)
JC cleared the problems they were having since S04! S08 was a redux of all those problems since S04.
I just can see why are you worried it is not clear enough JC knows is all about the brothers. They just don't need to be isolated. More good characters leads to more great scenes, like Sam and Crowley here. How awesome was that for character development? And this includes Sam, too, a marvelous new perspective of him. It does nothing but makes the show more rich.
It was a really good finale, best in the last two years by far. I also didn't see that ending coming, so hats of to JC and his crew for creativity.
I personally had hoped that the brothers would just let this one (the trials) go, if the price was too high (like either one of their lives) and felt really happy and satisfied when exactly that happened. Bravo boys! Allthough, there was that lingering hurtSam situation left unresolved *wibbles*
This eppie really went all out there, raising a lot of new interesting questions (and sadly not answering quite a few badly needed ones as well, but I'm gonna take those thoughts to the bitterness thread) and I was left really intrigued by the way things were set for season 9.
Especially the angels falling (allthought that last line was a bit cheesy, sorry Dean). I'm wondering if they'll fall like Anna or because they were forced to do it and not chosen it (like Anna), they'll be something else. I did have a ludicrous thought that if they fall like Anna, then we'll have a big brawl in about 15 years once all those fallen angels, born in human babies will hit the teens and exact revenge on us all
I'm just assuming that they'll be like Cas, human and bound to their vessels, with the vessels souls hopefully getting ascended to heaven where Metatron will make sure they get to live their happy heaven lives without any angel interference.
I honestly didn't get the bad guy -feels from Metatron. Personally I think the angels needed to be banished as a punishment for losing their way. Maybe they will remember their mission now and will team up and show us and Metatron that they can be better. OR they'll be über pissed and take it out on humans 'till the boys get them locked up again. I'm guessing the latter will happen
But Cas is human at least, YAY! At least I'm hoping he is. I liked him best in season 5 when he was losing his powers and becoming human so I'm hoping that will happen now too , only permanent this time. I was kinda tired of this angel powers trope anyway. I hope they can do a different spin on it though and not just a quick rehash of S5.
And then the boys. Oh the boys. They were incredible, weren't they? They made me so emotional and sad and happy when they were so tragic and honest and loving. I can see that rift healing (that started in season 4) better now. I can see that they are coming on an equal footing in some way. I'm glad that they are both saying things instead of the other one talking at the other and then months later the vice versa happens. They will never get better if they don't both talk and really listen what the other one is saying. I'm a bit more hopeful on that front thanks to this later season and esp. this eppie.
Mark Shepard was amazing, really really good in this one. I really felt for him when Crowley started to be more human than demon. I really liked that bit.
I was sad to see the Abaddon vessel go, I really liked the actress. Here's hoping she'll be the next big baddie in season 9 or atleast one of several baddies! But Sam took out that Knight of Hell with class! I fistpumped, I'm not embarrased to admit :)
Josie Mills better be alive, show, you hear me? I'm still pissed about Sarah!
Okay, a great eppie, thank you Jeremy Carver.
So it looks like Castiel is human now but what about the other angels that got kicked out of heaven? They've certainly opened up a lot of possibilities for next season.
Wonder what happens with Crowley now, and with Abbaddon on the loose. At first glance, it looks as though hell might have the upper hand going in to next season.
Early in the episode, when Dean started rattling off Sam's past sins, I was thinking - Dean, you really don't want to go there. It then kind of clicked as to where they were going with Sam's confession. Have read some complaints about the ending scene between Sam & Dean, about it being a rehash of the same old thing, lack of character development/mat urity, etc. I have to disagree - with this season being about perception, IMO Sam has always viewed himself as having failed his brother over and over again, and his brother not trusting him. Clearly, he is the center of Dean's universe but this is from Sam's POV and Dean certainly doesn't help matters when he starts rattling off all of Sam's failures, most of which involve betraying Dean. The one issue I always have when he rattles these things off (in Southern Comfort, albeit under the influence, and in this episode) is him blaming Sam for being Soulless; not quite sure how that was Sam's fault.
A big shout out to all the actors in this one, particularly Mark Sheppard, JA, and JP; they were outstanding. And, the VFX, cinematography, lighting, and location folks did an outstanding job, as they have all season. The visuals and lighting of the abandoned church at night, and the angels falling out of the sky, were spectacular.
This was the first season finale without Bobby, so I was super happy that the boys captured Crowley in Bobby's car yard. I personally think that was done deliberately so we had Bobby there in spirit
The final 10 minutes was brilliant & made my investment in that box of tissues so worthwhile
Epic brother moments
Lovely episode, great work by everyone. JP shows his talent again and it would be nice to see him recognized for it.
Also, loved the conversation at the end between Sam and Dean, I am really happy that in this finale the brothers are together and their bond seems stronger than ever!
Well done Supernatural, you showed us why this show is the best going around.
But watching Sam and Deans scene at the end when Sam confessed he felt he's always letting Dean down. It made me think of Something Wicked...the episode way back in s1 about eh striga. Dean told Sam that he alwasy felt John looked at him differntly and it has affected Dean his entire life.
Dean is pretty much Sam's father and Sam feels he has let Dean down. But unlike Deans precierved failure and his perception that "john looked at him differently". Sam has the full 3d disappoint. Not only does Sam THINK he failed Dean he has Dean continually voicing his disappintment and betrayal. and then he takes pot shots at Sam under the guise of 'brotherly teasing'.
So where Dean THOUGHT John was disappointed in him...Sam KNOWS Dean is disappointed in him....through direct words and when he overhears Dean tell others Sam needs a babysitter, he cant be trusted.
So I hinestly dont get how Dean can say he didn't mean it or Sam miisunderstood him.
And i simply dont get why Carver HAD to have Sam not look for Dean...sin upon sin upon sin upon betrayal. Wasn't every faiilure of Sams that Dean has been listing all season enough?
And why was Sam not looking boiled down to just that? Sam not looking? Where was the human element of that? Sam loved his brother so much he broke? He was so frozen for fear of failing, of screwing up in a away it would hurt people and thus Dean would be disappointed.
Sam's human story just feelsd like a mitagated faiulre because their was a lack of humanity to it. Sams human story was basically Deans listing Sams failures.
I truely dont understand what Carver was doing with Sam this season. It trueley felt like an incoherent mess.
S8 Cons
- I felt the writing was inconsistent quite a bit, they contradicted canon and the writing of Sam and Dean wasn't always consistent with previous characterisation.
- I disliked the Sam & Amelia plot (it bored me to tears and I hated the fact that the writers had Sam not look for Dean)
- There are unanswered questions from the early season that haven't been addressed and it doesn't look like they will be addressed, for example: who was standing outside the house in the first ep? Who told Benny about the portal out of Purgatory?
- The writers are just actually going with the idea that Sam didn't look for Dean and now that's something else Sam has to feel guilty about for letting Dean down - that seems unfair to me because Sam not looking for Dean is not organic to the character of Sam - it's something the writers put on him and it doesn't sit well with his previous character development. It doesn't feel like something he would do. I was hoping for an explanation that would show why he acted so OOC but the explanation we got just doesn't make sense, to me.
S8 pros
- The writers have made a fairly decent attempt to get Sam and Dean back to being friends and not just two brothers that hunt together because they hunt together. It felt a little forced at times and not as natural as I would have liked but I'll happily take it because I've been fed up of the Winchesters being angry with each other for the last 4 years.
- The brothers don't seem to be lying or withholding info from each other any more, this can only be a good thing.
- I enjoyed a lot of the guest actors for the recurring characters and enjoyed quite a few of the recurring characters.
- The trials story was interesting and so were the monster of the week stories (apart from Bitten which bored me to tears).
- There's going to be a S9
So, for me, S8 was a mixed bag, I would have liked it to be more joined up and less inconsistent. The season ender had some really strong scenes in it and I enjoyed the quality of acting. I was sorry to see Naomi die and I hope that Jodi is still alive - stop killing strong female characters PTB. Cas being human might be interesting (he'll be on his third wife if he follows Metatron's advice to go forth and marry) if it's done well and allows for some character development. I suppose I'm curious to see what will come next year.
I've enjoyed going through my first SPN season in the company of the folks at WFB, I've enjoyed the reviews, articles, and chances to discuss things with fellow fans in a friendly atmosphere
- Fallen angels would still have powers. After all Lucifer was a Fallen angel and he still had a lot of power! It's only angels without their Grace who become human.
Totally agree Kim A. which makes it really scary for Cas. If he thought the angels would kill him in Heaven(that's what he told Dean in the bar) then it will be doubly bad now. The angels will be pissed and he has no powers so he has a big bullseye on his back..not good. And how sick is Sam? All that energy that's been building in him turned inward because he didn't complete the trials..how is that going to affect him physically. I'm thinking this will be a big probably in season 9 and with no Cas to heal him..well who knows. Maybe another angel will step up and be an ally/protector for the boys and Cas..lots of possibilities there. I was kinda sad to see Naomi go. She redeemed herself in the end and I think she could have been that ally/protector for them.
Loved that brother moment at the end..heartbreak ing. Sam has been carrying this guilt around and was willing to sacrifice himself so he wouldn't be a disappointed to Dean anymore. I glad he told Dean so he(Dean) could see how much Sam cared for him...great acting/scene between the boys. Great job Carver..you've left us reeling!! Now I can't wait for season 9. Most of all I'm glad the boys are together going into season 9. I really didn't won't them apart again.
Take care,
Jane
I loved a lot of it. As in seriously LOVED. The scenes between JP and MS were awesome. Both JP and MS deserve some Emmy nominations for their performances in this episode.
Those final scenes between the brothers...dear God...those scenes were incredible. Jared and Jensen were fabulous. I think that scene could have become my new most favourite brotherly scene ever. Sam/Jared tore my heart to shreds, more so than ever before (and Sam's broken my Sam girl heart a lot over the years
As for the rest of the episode I'm hesitant to admit it but the angel stuff didn't interest me. I've tried, oh how I've tried since S4 to get interested in the angels and their storylines but I haven't managed to yet.
Dean bringing up Sam being soulless as something Sam should be guilty for/confess was a WTH??? moment for me.
I still have big issues with what Carver did with Sam's storyline this season however this finale ended with some delicious Hurt!Sam so, as a huge Hurt!Sam fan, that probably pretty much guarantees I'll be tuning in for S9.
P.S I really hope Jodie is still alive.
P.P.S After all these years Carry On My Wayward Son still gives me the chills and it still reduces me to tears. As soon as I hear the first few notes I'm pretty much a wreck from then on in. Whoever first chose this song back in S1 made a genius choice. It's such a perfect song for the show.
i really enjoyed this episode. it had, for me, an amazing powerful moment that i think changed the relationship of the boys forever...for the better. i'll get into that in a bit.
the shadow figure, who told benny about the portal...those are very big questions that i still think we will get the answer to..like i said, we only saw part one of a two part eppy...i'm leaning to it being metatron who wanted the boys back in the game. i think metatron gave benny the info and i think he brought dear dead don back. sam was living in a fantasy world and it was time for him to get back to the real story...his life...and i can't help but wonder if metatron knew all along that sam would undertake the trials....i think metatron has been pissed off at the angels and planning a payback plan for a long time.
will crowley become our new meg? i mean he is just one step away from full on human...do sam and dean have a new demon ally now? that could come in handy...
cas as human? pretty boring and not much for him to do...i don't think it'll last...he either gets his grace back or perhaps abbadon uses cas as a new vessel being that sam burned the old one...either that or perhaps abbadon makes crowley his/her new home...and crowley gets to be double bad...how delicious would that be...
don't know which direction show will go there, but i do hope cas doesn't stay human...not much for him to do then. i really don't think he'll be riding in the back seat of the impala.
sam was just one step away of total purification... or was he? his blood was working on crowley. he also confessed. i believe sam actually was purified...i think the dying was just his reward...if you go by christian belief, heaven is a reward for all of us. sam may have had a role in heaven to play...that's what i'd like to think anyway...either that or he would've been reunited with john and mary....
my question is, was sam sick because he stopped the trial or was it because angels upon angels were falling to earth and he felt their pain...
not sure if metatron drained all the angels of their grace or simply found a way to dispel them from heaven and close the gate himself. if the angels are on earth with power, is that good or bad? they're going to be pretty pissed off...
now the best scene of them all...the gamechanger...t he scene that i believe changes the boys relationship into one that is stronger and more honest and definitely the mature relationship that carver has been striving for...
i have to admit, i wanted so badly for dean to get a glimpse of what sam really went thru during that year...and i almost got upset that it didn't happen...but then we got the last scene which i thought was so much more important....an d this last scene, imo broke the winchester dam...so i still have high hope that dean will ask sam about his year...
sam's "so" just made me grab a tissue. i've posted it before that i always thought sam felt like a disappointment to his brother...that he would rather dean angry at him then admit anything like another failure, like maybe it's not that sam didn't look, but more like he couldn't do it...he simply broke. he imploded and he ran...he hid in a life that wasn't really his...he found someone he could save because he couldn't save his brother...but in the end sam knew life with amelia wasn't about love...it was about running and hiding and it was time to stop. i think metatron thought the same thing, because i still think it was him that watched sam leave.....sam and amelia were not part of metatron's story...imo of course.
so when sam said so to dean's you will die...i just knew what was coming next and i cried a little of the sheer relief of it...finally... .just finally....
sam admits to dean what a lot of us already knew. and dean...well i haven't cried in a dean scene since s2...i was so proud of him...i loved him all over again...dean learning the truth about how sam felt and dishing back a truth that we all knew but sam didn't until that moment....best brother scene ever...
the most important part of this moment, imo of course, is that the winchester dam has finally been broken. there is no truth bigger than the one they just told ea. other. there is no need to for either brother to ever hold back again...to feel like they can't talk to ea. other...i felt this to be the most pivotal moment in the 8 years of this show...sam and dean's relationship is now mature, honest and stronger than superman and i am just one happy camper right now.
as i stated, i do want dean to know what it was like for sam as i think it's important because the first half of the season was so one sided...and i still think it's going to happen.... after watching and rewatching i realized that first this step had to be taken....dean now understands sam in a way he never has before.. ( thank you ben and jeremy) dean's words, his resentment, his trust in benny and even cas hurt sam in a way he never realized did...there's no blame here as sam keeps his feelings to himself...but now dean knows and i really believe that dean, when things are calmer, will come to realize that he never really talked to sam about his year...what it was like for him...and i think he will .and.not to start an argument, but because he really wants to know...because when all is said and done, bottom line is dean does care about sam. also because this is still an open wound for them and us and as wonderful as this speech was it didn't really cover the issue...but as i said i really believe that this talk was necessary. it was the pivotal major step imperative in opening the way for more honesty between the boys and less trying to hide things because they want to protect ea. other or don't want to disappoint ea. other.
so kudos to carver for that...i think he has earned at least a bottle of dr. pepper for this one....
P.S: Where are the Dr. Pepper deliverers? nappi is right, Carver deserves at least one.
I do think Sam was "purified" of demon blood. Otherwise his blood wouldn't have worked in beginning to cure Crowley.
Everyone is always asking to hear Sam's POV; well, we got an earful over the past couple of episodes. This conversation was long overdue; while Sam and Deans relationship has improved a lot over the second half of the season, there were still clearly a lot of problems. Might be in the minority here but Dean, even though he clearly loves his brother and would do anything for him, still harbors resentment for Sam letting him down in the past, otherwise he wouldn't keep bringing it up. I just don't think he realized the extent of how much his comments, even when said in a joking or flippant manner, stung Sam.
I'm with you; hope we get to hear more about Sam's year off in S9. Also love your theory about Metatron being outside of Sam and Amelia''s house when he left in 8.01.
The acting was top notch; MS, JA, and JP were outstanding, JP in particular during the last couple of episodes.
Overall, very happy with S8; yes, there were problems but JC did a good job in breathing life in to an aging show; lots of possibilities for S9, S10 and maybe even beyond that?
as to your question on dean blaming sam for not telling him he was souless...i'd like to share with you my perception of it...maybe it'll help or maybe it's just plain horse puckey in your opinion....but here goes..
dean isn't stupid. he knows sam is not at fault for being souless and he knows and has told sam time and time again that he wasn't responsible for souless sam's acts. in clap your hands if you believe, dean was totally aware of sam's lack of empathy...his inability to care...souless sam has told dean that he didn't care about lisa, that he didn't even care about him. dean knew what souless meant because he witnessed it first hand.
but dean is human and even at times emotional. we see him get angry, we see him happy, we see him sad....the man feels and imo he feels deeply. that being said, i can only imagine how hard it must have been for dean to have sam next to him every day but not having him there. to see the shell that was his brother and know that the best part of who sam was, was suffering in hell..trapped in the cage with lucifer.
now imagine all this anger and pain dean is feeling and then imagine him being angry at sam for making him feel that way...even though sam had nothing to do with it. it wasn't his fault...but for dean, it doesn't matter, because sam is the one who is making him feel all this pain. sam is the one who jumped in the pit. sam gave himself to save the world...and dean is alone and without his brother...knowi ng he's in hell suffering. then sam comes back and dean is happy to have his brother back, only to learn he doesn't have his brother back..not all of him, not his sammy...so in essence dean still lost his brother...
i kind of equate it with someone who's sick and dying. they don't ask to be sick. they don't want to be sick. it's not their fault...but it's not unheard of for a loved one to be angry with this person for being sick...for dying. and for making them hurt.
that's how i always pictured it for dean and why he brings up the souless thing.....logic ally dean knows it's not sam's fault...but emotionally, souless sam for dean iis hurt.
that's just how i see it...
as to your question on dean blaming sam for not telling him he was souless...i'd like to share with you my perception of it...maybe it'll help or maybe it's just plain horse puckey in your opinion....but here goes..
dean isn't stupid. he knows sam is not at fault for being souless and he knows and has told sam time and time again that he wasn't responsible for souless sam's acts. in clap your hands if you believe, dean was totally aware of sam's lack of empathy...his inability to care...souless sam has told dean that he didn't care about lisa, that he didn't even care about him. dean knew what souless meant because he witnessed it first hand.
but dean is human and even at times emotional. we see him get angry, we see him happy, we see him sad....the man feels and imo he feels deeply. that being said, i can only imagine how hard it must have been for dean to have sam next to him every day but not having him there. to see the shell that was his brother and know that the best part of who sam was, was suffering in hell..trapped in the cage with lucifer.
now imagine all this anger and pain dean is feeling and then imagine him being angry at sam for making him feel that way...even though sam had nothing to do with it. it wasn't his fault...but for dean, it doesn't matter, because sam is the one who is making him feel all this pain. sam is the one who jumped in the pit. sam gave himself to save the world...and dean is alone and without his brother...knowi ng he's in hell suffering. then sam comes back and dean is happy to have his brother back, only to learn he doesn't have his brother back..not all of him, not his sammy...so in essence dean still lost his brother...
i kind of equate it with someone who's sick and dying. they don't ask to be sick. they don't want to be sick. it's not their fault...but it's not unheard of for a loved one to be angry with this person for being sick...for dying. and for making them hurt.
that's how i always pictured it for dean and why he brings up the souless thing.....logic ally dean knows it's not sam's fault...but emotionally, souless sam for dean is "hurt".
that's just how i see it...
And besides, I can tell you from experience that brothers never really grow out of this kind of crap, no matter how old they get
OMG I LOVED THIS EPISODE!!!! Best season finale by far!!! I have never been so anxious to find out what happens next, and now we have all summer! Wah!!! The acting was incredible, Mark Sheppard, Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki brought me to tears..
*Crowley wanting forgiveness and asking Sam where to start, willingly taking more purified blood...Oh I hope Dean finishes the trial so he can be cured. I love Crowley as King of Hell but I also like this new Crowley and would love to hear his real back story.
*Sam's "So?" HEARTBREAKING
*Dean telling Sam, that's not what he ever meant....The whole scene...best Broment ever!
*Dean looking up at the sky "It's Angels" (anyone else think he was amazed at that point? Like maybe they were coming to help or something amazing was happening?) then he realizes they are falling..
*Cas is human, love it and hate it at the same time!
*Jody, please be alive, maybe the "new" Crowley can be your boyfriend. :)
...Now I know some of you are all pissed when Dean was telling Sam was to confess (like losing his soul)..First of all, I don't think he was pissed that Sam lost it, more what he did when he didn't have it (I know he has no soul, its not his fault) but if that happened to me, I would confess too....that's all Dean was trying to do. Tell Sam what he thought he should ask God for forgiveness for. Dean has put it in the past (or he has now after their awesome broment). I don't think Dean ever meant to hurt Sam like that, it was just confession suggestions.
Anyway...When the angels were falling, I was very much in awe. It was beautiful and terrible at the same time.
Kudos to the actors, writers and entire crew. This episode was AMAZING, probably one of my favorites! Can't wait til Fall!!
Quick theory....What if next season, Sam and Dean have to not only find a way to send the angels back to Heaven, but they have to protect them? You know, like a reverse guardian ship??
OK, these are in random thinky thought order.
1) I'm going with - Jodi is alive! I'm not speculating on that one. I have faith. I love her.
2) Dean's deep down pain, real pain that comes back to him in unexpected moments so that he can't forget, is why he keeps bringing up those hateful things he says. I myself have said some awful things for that reason and I never intended to say them.
3) Didn't icky Metraton put something into Cas between taking his grace and sealing him up?
4) Sam saying "so?" broke my heart into little pieces. I cried a lot during this episode.
5) Finding out what Sam really thought from his voice and his POV was so powerful - I'm starting to cry again now! Jared is wonderful. He rocked the second half of this season!
6) Dean telling Sam he would never put anything above Sam - he can't get along without him, that he loves him. OMG - I'm crying right now (harder).
7) The hug. I cried again. I don't mind crying during SPN and the J's. They deserve Emmy's.
9) The angels falling were beautiful, especially the far-away view.
10) The first half of the season still doesn't make sense when you try to blend it with the rest of the season.
11) There are just enough questions for us to talk about during the Hellatus.
Plus, in honor of the Show, I tried to drink whiskey while I watched. It was very difficult! One sip per commercial was all I could manage. Apparently I am not hunter material. *disappointed*
Sorry this was so long and disorganized.
This is one of the big O_O moments for me. I don't care that we're meant to take it on faith that Metatron avoided the fall along with the others I want to know HOW he did it. And to not give us the answer before the break makes it look like a huge plot hole NOT a cliffhangar to be excited about.
2. What does the angel tablet actually say about trials? Can it help re-open the gates of heaven? And if Metatron wrote the tablets, won't he know how to subvert whatever's on them, if he has to?
It probably does have a method of shutting down Heaven. It probably has a method to restore fallen angels. It probably has some house rules and if it has the ritual to cause a mass falling it probably has a few other tricks and tips on too. In some ways the mass falling could be comparable to the demon bombs.
3. Sam was filling with energy during the trials, so what's going to happen to that energy now? He was supposed to just be the conductor, pouring the energy into Crowley to cure him and get himself killed in the process. So what happens now? Also, why are his hands always getting patched up by Dean? Stigmata references? Something else?
I actually think that Sam could and should complete the trials because they won't actually kill him. They'll kill those who balk at the final hurdle but will spare/purify those that are truly prepared to sacrifice all for the greater good. Energy isn't destroyed merely displaced so it either escaped into the atmosphere or is still within Sam's frame as some other kind of energy.
4. How pissed is Abaddon going to be when she comes back next year?
Another O_O moment. After everything the "unkillable" Abaddon can endure a little gasoline is sufficient to drive her off. That scene was sloppy to the extreme. And a waste of a phenomenal actress. When the character comes back she'll be back for blood and she better take her pound of flesh from Crowley; Hell is due a new ruler.
5. Since when does jamming a drill into the back of an angel's head kill it? Do you think Naomi was really dead or just incapacitated before getting expelled from heaven? Are all those angels going to have their memories intact since they didn't choose to fall and become human? How guilty is Cass going to feel about the angels being cast from heaven, too? Very guilty is my guess. Will the other angels blame him? Will he be hunted again?
I suspect that she was brain dead since it was an angelic drill. If we're lucky she'll be back because she was worth her weight in narrative gold. I think all angels are meant to be amnesiacs including Cas. At least that was my takeaway from what Metatron was saying to Castiel when he was finishing the ritual.
6. What else would set off the alarms in the bunker like that, do you think? The mass demon exodus at the end of season 2?
Purgatory opening, leviathans, angels falling/walking the earth en masse, demonic uprising.
7. If God is all-knowing, etc, why would he choose Metatron as his scribe if He knew Metatron was going to go batty and expel all the angels from heaven? (These sort of things make my brain melt)
I want to know how Metatron got out of Naomi's chair. No other angel has done so before hand and yet somehow he's able to reach and manipulate the tool to break out? Another gaping plot hole. Saying God allowed it doesn't make it better.
Quote:I am pretty sure it was holy oil not gasoline - Sam was decanting it at the car while Dean was doing his confession speech. I agree, I liked the actress too, maybe they can bring her back!
Quote:As is often the way Naomi just left it in the wrong place and he took advantage.
I hope Naomi is only mostly dead too, I would love to see Amanda Tapping back next season.
Castiel going human. I know a lot of people called it but jeez, I don’t know. I hope they take it (human Castiel) seriously because I think Castiel the naive human playing the imbecile on shopping trips and whatnot could get very old, very fast. That being said, I do want to just lock him in a beehive hut at the top of Skellig Michael for the next six hundred years or so, just cos.
Gotta be honest, the scenes with Castiel and Metatron (and really just Metatron in general) just didn’t do it for me. I’m not sure why. Maybe because it was so obvious that he was playing Castiel? Though while I did expect him to stage some sort of coup I wasn’t expecting him to cast all the angels out of heaven.
So I guess it’s just Metatron and a couple of hundred million (billion?) souls. I wonder if it could be sort of an Arabian Nights sort of thing up there now where each night a soul must tell Metatron a story and if he’s not entertained then that soul will get fecked out of there. Metatron does seem kinda high maintenance.
The last scene was amazeballs. The angels dropping from heaven like falling stars (that’s why I don’t believe that people will start finding out about the supernatural. It could easily be explained off as a natural phenomenon), while the camera goes between the five characters was brilliant.
Pretty much everything with Sam and Crowley was gold. From the time Dean slapped the handcuff on him to the end where (I’m sure) he was uttering a prayer (or something) as Sam was about to ‘cure’ him, Crowley was amazing. The scene where he turned his neck to Sam (and actually called him 'Sam', not Moose or Giraffe or whatnot) and Sam was oh so gentle with the needle that time was absolutely beautiful. The church was fabulous, the setting gorgeous. I loved the (slightly horrific) crucifix with the severed hands and feet nailed to it; quite cool when you consider Abbadon, who dealt with her own case of severed limbs the week before. I wonder if that is some sort of symbolism there that angels and demons (or archangels and possibly recently promoted queens of Hell) have more in common than previously thought.
The scene.... Yes, it was fabulous. Yes, it was overdue, very long overdue. We’ve had a lot about how Sam’s abandoning of Dean has affected Dean but now we see how Dean abandoning Sam (and if Sam going with Ruby is abandonment then Dean going with Castiel etc is equally so) has affected Sam. We probably don’t consider it as abandonment because Castiel and Benny were well liked (I wonder what people would call it if it was Sarah that Sam went to) but it was. It doesn’t matter what the intentions were (ie stopping the Apocalypse), it doesn’t matter what the reasons behind it were, what matters is how the person affected perceived it to be (and this is the only time this season I’ll use the word 'perceive' and not roll my eyes). Sam is cut to the bone by his perception that Dean choose someone, anyone (even monsters) over him and Dean is angry by his perception that Sam chose someone over him. Sam believes he’ll never be trusted, and has never been trusted by Dean, a belief of which there are ample examples that Sam could use as evidence. Perhaps, backed up by the words spoken in Southern Comfort, he believes he’s been Dean’s cross to bear, his obligation, his burden, since he sat into Dean’s ride (God knows how far back when). I imagine those words, and the words on the voicemail, and the words spoken through seasons 4 and 5, and the knowledge that Dean felt he needed to kill ‘him’ in season 6, to (maybe) the knowledge that Dean made a deal for Death’s ring etc etc, it’s not hard to see why Sam believes that. We obviously know that’s not what Dean believes but if Sam believes that he’s dirty, unworthy, tainted etc from a very young age then I’m sure he believes that he’s not worthy of being loved by someone that he holds in such high esteem. I can’t imagine how deep those scars must be, to believe that you were ‘abandoned’ by your brother, your father, angels and God himself.
We’ve seen plenty of evidence that Dean loves Sam, that Dean is important to Sam etc, but Sam has seen little. And what he has seen, given his fairly fragile emotional state, could easily be played down and turned around (ie ‘He didn’t kill Benny for me, he killed Benny because he wanted the trials done’ etc). That’s what to the core depression and desolation does to a person. It’s why I appreciate Amelia all the more. Sam mightn’t have completely melted with her but he did start to thaw. In this scene, however, Sam shattered and it was painful to see.
I loved the ‘Just let it go’ ‘I can’t. It’s in me.’ etc lines because both Sam and Dean were talking about sooooo much more than the trials. This regret, this overwhelming regret, is deep rooted in Sam and it’s been festering there for years, decades now. It can’t (it shouldn’t) be that easy to just let it go. Though hopefully, this outburst, this release, and the knowledge (no matter how tentative) that he is wholly accepted by Dean, might make him more confident to express himself the next time, without that fear of being rejected for it.
However...... (and this is where I express some discontent so feel free to scroll past it), it is my most fervent desire that this is built on in season 9. It can’t be a simple fix it, the boys relationship is back perfect etc etc. For as much as we, and Sam, now know Sam is important to Dean (though I think it will take a lot longer for that to set in for Sam, even as Dean was saying it you could see that Sam was struggling to believe it) the issue of trust is still up in the air (for me). Dean, and we, still doesn’t know why Sam did what he did, in any of the situations. We (the audience) can make assumptions based on conversations that Dean was not privy to etc but Dean doesn’t know any of this. Dean doesn’t know why Sam did what he did, so can Dean trust him to not do it again? No. If Dean doesn’t know, can Sam trust him to not turn to someone else the next time Sam does something Dean doesn’t agree with? No. If Dean doesn’t know why Sam does what he does, if he (or anyone) doesn’t ask, and if Sam doesn’t tell, then very, very quickly Dean will decide he can’t trust Sam anymore and we’re back to square one.
If you think about it, for the sake of one word ‘Why?’, at any stage, in any season so much turmoil could have been avoided. If someone said to Sam, even now, ‘Why did you go with Ruby?’, ‘Why did you drink blood?’, ‘Why didn’t you look for Dean?’ etc, and an answer given, then Dean might never have reason to feel he couldn’t trust Sam, to think Sam needed a babysitter etc. He’d have known Sam’s intentions and not just seen his actions and the ensuing results. By knowing his intentions he’d realise that he himself has had the same intentions, has often done the same thing (but with different consequences) and he’ll find that he and Sam are more alike than they thought.
Dean needs to be privy to Sam’s thoughts and vice versa, not in a creepy co-dependent way but to allow them to know the other because, at the moment, they don’t. I’m sorry but they don’t. I don’t think they have a clue as to what drives the other because Dean is so caught up in anger and obligation and Sam is so caught up in regret and self-loathing that they can’t know each other.
This is why, for me, the ‘confession†™ to Dean was so important. From Sam’s POV, Dean hadn’t forgiven him for what he did in the past. Southern Comfort confirmed that. And as much as, logically, Sam knows that he repented, and did ample penance, for what he did, he can’t find true forgiveness within himself until he is granted forgiveness by some higher power. Maybe Sam was so full of self-loathing that he didn’t think that Dean would forgive him (that’s why he didn’t tell him) so he went to a different higher power, a higher power who remained woefully silent in the past, for what he hoped would be forgiveness. And he was forgiven by God; the fact that his blood worked with Crowley (hopefully, cos it’d be great if it did. One soul saved, one win, one small win for Sam could go a long way for the guy) shows that.
However, he also confessed to Dean and this is something that we (good little Irish RC students) were told never to do. You confess your sins to God and God alone, because only God has to power to forgive you (and Mrs P, primary school teacher was never wrong when it came to God!) However, Sam also confessed to Dean, what he said to God he also said to his brother; his own higher power? Did Dean forgive him, truly forgive him? Having seen Sam’s self inflicted, scourging to the core, penance that Sam has been doing for years now, hopefully he has/truly will, and this will allow both Sam and Dean to heal and find some worth within themselves.
Thanks for this Ardeospina.
I do think they need to use the song "He ain't heavy, he's my brother" sometime...so appropriate.
Quote: Hopefully God, give Metatron a clout around the ear. Maybe take his pension away. Keep Castiel away from the place anyway. He’s like a freaking pyromaniac with box of matches. He just can’t help himself.
Quote: I’m going with the ‘Let Metatron fix it, not my problem dude’ attitude. Tell Kevin to shove that tablet into an envelope and post it back to him. Metatron was big enough and bold enough to find a ‘solution’ the first time round, he can do it again. I mean, why would (should) Sam and Dean now go and antagonise the boss of heaven? He’s done nothing to them. In fact, he seems to hold humans in relatively high esteem and he did live among them for years. He could be the best thing to happen to heaven in ages. I do wish he dressed better though.
Quote:Dunno, but the idea of a snot rag that has been in close proximity to Dean’s ass all day being used to patch up an open wound is a big no-no. Fuck sake, Sam survives the trials and whatnot only to die of MRSA or some butt transfer related disease. Would they not carry around a box of band aid or elastoplast or something like that with them? They always seem to need it.
Strange though that Sam did seem to get a case of the Aaaargh’s again just as the angels started dropping.
Quote: Very. She’ll be like a cut cat, so she will. Sam had better start carrying a fire extinguisher around with him.
Quote:In short; since today; really dead; they’ll have their memories; very; yes and yes. Bet that beehive hut on top of Skellig Michael doesn’t sound so bad now, does it Castiel??
Quote: Lots of things. Definitely that demon thing, when the winning goal in the FA cup is scored, when they announce the winner of the X Factor, when the cake is ready, things like that. I’m sure it’s multi-purpose, and I bet that some of the MoL were right pranksters. All work and no play yadda yadda. And if Bobby can do it then surely these guys can.
Quote:Isn’t Metatron only doing what God previously did; cast out an angel cos he didn’t do what he was supposed to do and he was basically acting the pup, like the angels are now. Surely God would approve of what Metatron did?
Those black and white bandanas have been used for a LOT of things over the years: bandages, gags, compression bandages, Jensen wore one as a head-cover in one of the gag reels, and my personal favorite: for cleaning the railing of a fire escape outside a window where a guy has just had his head chopped off. I am forced to assume that they wash them occasionally... .
Metatron doesn't dress well enough?
ThisOldBag, I also snort laughed. Tim does that to me. And how long was her post? And every word well thought out.
Tim, really your post was great. Your points are always clear. I liked what you said. Thanks, from l2b, who couldn't get that many words out at one time if she had the rest of her life.
Jeremy Carver doesn’t give away much in his interviews, but he did let this one word out very early in the season! Perception! And, he has to be congratulated on the resounding success of that aspect of season 8.
Each week, I read the comments on this site (on the speculation thread and other reviews) and I’ve been completely astounded by the different perception each and every one of us has of practically every scene. Even today, after the finale, some people are saying that Supernatural is no longer about the brothers, while others are saying it’s all about the brothers
In a recent interview, Jeremy Carver said “I’m not going to lie: it’s certainly harder to come up with original stories. But when you have this base of these two brothers – as long as it always comes back to that, in one form or another – I think we’re on safe ground.â€
After the finale, there is no doubt in my mind that it’s all about the brothers, who have both matured considerably in this season (fulfilling another JC comment).
Perception! I don’t know how many times this season that I’ve read the following comment: “We must be watching different showsâ€. Hell, I’ve even expressed this myself after reading some comments that have threatened to nullify my total happiness about an episode.
But, back to the finale! The final 10 minutes of season 8 completely summed up the notion of perception by presenting us with two brothers FINALLY letting each other know their own skewed perceptions of each other and themselves.
Sam: “You wanna know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? It was how many times I let you down. I can’t do that again. What happens when you decide I can’t be trusted again? Who are you gonna turn to this time instead of me? Another angel? Another vampire?â€
Dean: “Just hold on. Do you seriously think that? Because none of it, none of it is true. Listen man, I know we’ve had our disagreements. Hell, I know I’ve said some stuff that set you back on your heels but Sam, come on … It has never been like that, ever. I need you to see that. I’m begging you.â€
I needed my box of tissues right there… and another glass of wine
In the comments above there are a couple of themes being rehashed. People are talking about the unfairness of Dean bringing up the wrongs Sam did as ‘Soulless Sam’. But, don’t forget, that period of Dean’s life was very traumatic. He was turned into a vampire and almost hurt Lisa & Ben (which was the beginning of the end of his relationship with them). My perception of Dean’s refusal to let this go is not that Dean blames Sam for any of it, but that he just can’t help himself from time to time. I’ll use another quote from Jeremy Carver to back this up: “To be completely frank, they’re brothers, so they wouldn’t be brothers if they didn’t occasionally slip into great levels of immaturity.â€
Regarding Sam not looking for Dean (and at the risk of creating another hornet’s nest), I can accept that he thought Dean was dead and didn’t look (I accepted it a while ago, but even more so now). Why? Because of what Sam said about his greatest sin – always letting Dean down. When the Trickster killed Dean, Sam was so angry that he almost lost himself in his rage. When Dean went to Hell, Sam tried everything to get Dean out and then ended up trusting and being manipulated by Ruby. When the apocalypse was imminent, Sam tried to redeem himself by jumping into the cage with Lucifer. But then he came back without his soul and wreaked havoc (NOT HIS FAULT I know, but Sam felt guilty about it).
So why wouldn’t Sam try to do something different on this occasion, when he thought Dean was dead? He tried to go and live a normal life, even though he was broken, even though he probably wanted to tear heaven and hell apart to get Dean back. Because he'd done those things in the past and let Dean down in the process. From his perception, he did the right thing. But, once again, it backfired ... from Sam's perception.
For me, season 8 had a few rough spots and some shaky writing, but, overall, I loved it! It was a big improvement over seasons 6 & 7 ... and I can't wait for season 9
Dean was just mentioning (enumerated) Sam's sins, not blaming. I admit, it was a bad choice of words, probably he meant, when you loose your soul, or something like that, meaning, "the things you did when you didn't have a soul", I saw it like that, kind of just mentioning the tittle of the sins, since he just said "Ruby" and nothing else...
Like many others here I had some problems with the first half of the season (no, really... I did, shocking, I know) and I still am not thrilled with the decision to have Sam not look for Dean and for Sam to have had so little voice this year. But it occurred to me in this episode that it maybe had to be that way. Because we have had so little of Sam in the preceding episodes, these little golden pearls of insight we've been getting recently are so much more sweet, so much more meaningful because of his previous silence. Some fans may still not feel that the lack of voice was worth the payoff, but I am actually even a little (more than a little) satisfied!
I agree with Tim though, this whole topic needs to be fleshed out later to be fully satisfying, but what a great start! A greater exploration into the why's of Sam's lost year sounds like a great topic for discussion to be had while Sam recovers from the trials. If either JC or BE writes the season 9 opener it will hopefully be equally satisfying as these last few episodes have been.
Remember how Metatron said you should be able to deal with the consequences? Because closing hell may be exactly the opposite of what you would want to do.
Another hint is that Dean told Sam that he shouldn't risk it, because they now have greater tools than ever to work on demons.
1) Hellhounds - to learn how to kill a hellhound. this is the first weapon to defeat evil. Remember, closing hell is NOT the ideal path. That's not apparent yet in the first trial, but stay focused. Assuming you later find out in the next trial that you indeed do not want to close hell down, you will need this tool. After all, hellhounds are not souls that can be saved...they are just pure evil. This is the first weapon.
2) Saving a soul from hell. By working on the trials, they learn how to save a soul from hell. In order to keep saving souls from hell, the gates cannot be closed.
3) To cure a demon This is better than smoking them or killing them outright. Or even shutting them out. Curing a demon is the most noble of all roads.
What an irony if Sam is angelic now, considering that he had demonic blood once. Whatever it is, I hope they don't just sweep it under the carpet and put Sam back on his feet as if nothing had happened, after all the talk about what the trials were doing to him.
I consider myself to be a fan of both brothers equally, but my roommate is an avid DeanGirl and that was her biggest question as well. We both wanted to know what in the world is going on with Sam. We went back and re-watched it to try to figure it out. We assume the timeline works that the minute the spell completed and the angels started falling that that's right after Sam decided to "let it go" and then he started to not be able to breath (what it seems like was happening) anymore, and then when the first angel hit the ground he flinched as if he could feel it. So what in the world is that about?
I don't mean that Sam must be sick all the time, though I confess that I love concerned big brother Dean to bits. But I watch this show for the drama, and miraculous cures don't produce good drama. I'm hoping for a decent resolution this time.
Also, anyone else notice that we're getting close to the date explored in the end!verse?
ALSO, also, Where is the antichrist? That would be a powerful weapon for either side, I simply don't believe that some being isn't going to go look for him.
Love the last hug!!!! The best hug throughout the season. I guess there's a reason why the first hug was so awkward. So we can compare it to the last hug.
The brotherly moments were Awesome!!! My third fav lines after the Stone number 1 and the hellhound.
I think Dean still thinks that Cas was in heaven and throwing Angles out.
Just a thought.
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I really wonder if the writers are aware of how fans who have watched the show from the beginning are attuned to all the bits and pieces of canon.
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Maybe the writers think we don't pay attention or forget how certain continuities have played out in the past, not just the ins and outs of Sam's blameless soullessness, but other tit-bits like the Grand Canyon, the reverse exorcism, the fact that Crowley killed a demon in season seven because it didn't respect the standard ten years when it made a deal for souls, and then we see Crowley himself double-crossing on Bobby's deal; the fact that Kevin was a Vegan in s7 and now he tucks into hot dogs, etc, etc.,etc.
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There's a never ending list if we go into details; not to drag up Sam's not looking again, which I just can't accept.
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When you have built up a world as the previous writers have done in SPN, IMO the writers have to keep faith to that world and when they do add stuff on, it has to make sense.
The writers this season have not done that, and that is one of the many reasons IMO that s8 is not a super season.
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As for the brother scene at the end , it was a truly touching moment, but did the writers have to bring Sam to the point of death for the brothers to open up to each other?
I remember how beautiful the scene at the end of season two was after Azazel had been killed, when standing beside the Impala Dean tells Sam that his job is too look after him and Sam answers him with " You've saved my life over and over. I mean, you sacrifice everything for me. Don't you think I'd do the same for you? You're my big brother. There's nothing I wouldn't do for you. And I don't care what it takes, I'm gonna get you out of this. Guess I gotta save your ass for a change."
Then the brothers exchange a glance and Dean gives us a perfect smile. Sigh. :)
Hi,
I agree wholeheartedly, S2 was a wonderful season as were all the seasons one to three. :)
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Having said that, I have enjoyed all the later seasons too, because even although they haven't always been perfect, the brothers' relationship always had a logic and reason to it, even when they were at odds with each other.
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This season that all changed with Sam not loooking for Dean and the utterly contrived brother tension. I hardly recognised my brothers any more; both were so OOC.
I get that the boys are older and no-one, not even the magical Winchesters, can turn back time but one would think that after all they have been through, all the time they have spent together during the past seven years that they would finally be good with one anothe; have cultivated faith and trust in each other.
I was expecting the brothers to take on a quest, an Indiana Jones adventure, with mysterious tablets and clues to the mystery that came out bit by bit and brought us to a gran finale.
Possibly that's why I can't like this season because instead of the brothers being more 'mature', we have had them squabbling like children over Benny, Amelia and past'wrongs' which Dean had already given a blanket apology to over Rufus' grave in s6.
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I'm just disapponted in what Carver has given us. I expected episodes the caliber and sensitivity of AV Supernatural Christmas but all we got was this hotch-potch of a season.
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If season nine picks up, I will be the first to be thrilled but if it goes even more downhill with less brothers, then I will remain at the end of season seven where a smart Sam realises his brother is in Purgatory, goes to a handy rogue reaper, slips in easily , gets his brother out and they go off in the Implala, doing what they always have; killing evil and saving things.
Sorry for the rant and I hope that as you say we get that wonderful sinchrony they once had, back. again.
Unlike many others, I enjoyed the first half of Season 6 (minus Lisa/Ben). Souless Sam was intriguing (and sexy!!!), Jared was amazing, and I was excited about what would come next. The second half fo the season should have been about the mending of the damaged relationship after Sam regained his soul. Instead, Castiel and his heavenly war took center stage, with teh brothers' story taking back seat. The Sam's wall thread was poorly dealt with, as was his character, I love both brothers, but I'm a diehard Sam fan so it was extremely frustrating to me. About half Season 7, I finally decided that I'd had enough.
It wasn't until mid season this year that I started watching again. I was pleasantly surprised to see the improvement in the relationship, not to mention that Sam is a character again, with an important part to play, something that I didn't see under Gamble's rule.
I understand your complaints. This seaon was not perfect, but it gave me hope. That said, I don't want to be disappointed with Season 9. I want it to be about the brothers' journey, not about angels, demons and whatever. I borrow Dean's words here: theres' nothing I would place in front of my boys.
but i was also thinking that maybe in on the head of a pin, sam didn't leave the hospital when cas showed up...i always thought that it was possible that sam heard the conversation dean had with cas...that would've hurt sam...dean confiding in cas instead of sam with something so important and personal....
look at how many cas and dean moments there have been that bothered the fandom...where sam is made to conveniently leave the room....i can't help but wonder if any of those moments bothered sam....
i have a scenario that keeps running through my head..we all know that this was part one of a part two eppy...that is what a cliffhanger basically is...so i'm not without hope that our questions will still be answered...like who was watching sam, and who told benny about the portal....to name a couple...
here is what i think...just speculation of course...
we know that metatron has been planning a payback for some time now...we also know he loves stories...what i think....
i think metatron read chuck's books. i think metatron has always known about the winchesters and were enamored of them....the winchesters are the epitome of humanity...what God wanted all angels to love and to protect...i think metatron may have been relying on the winchesters as part of his plan to expel the angels from heaven...or at the very least, metatron wanted the winchesters out there doing what they do best...hunting evil and saving people.
i think it was metatron who told benny about the portal. i also believe metatron put the dog in front of sam's car, because it's my firm belief that sam was so broken, that he was actually going to drive off a cliff or something....hi s talk in heartache about suicide leads me to believe this... i think riot saved sam's life. i think amelia helped...i think being with amelia gave sam the chance to save someone...to focus on someone other than himself and his own pain...she gave him a place to run and hide....all the meanwhile giving sam the time he need to gain his strength back..he found the will to survive and move on and ultimately he was able to face reality again....recogn izing that he didn't belong with amelia, he needed to get back to his life.
i still think it's possible that metatron helped sam see that because i think metatron used amelia's father as a vessel and it was him who laid the true reality out for sam....i also think metatron brought back don....
again, this is all gut feeling....but until show proves otherwise, this is just as likely a scenario as any other...so i'm sticking with it...
my hope is that metatron will confront dean for the tablet. that he will offer to heal sam for it...i'm also hoping that during that conversation metatron will bring up that dean should be greatful to him because he saved both him and sam....and then when dean asks why...metatron confesses to everything...
what are the chances that the season opener can start out like that?
Metranon is all upsrt. Going on "is this the thanks I get for savingt your lives? Dean snarks. Sam asks what the hell is he talking about. MAtranon hold up the SN books. He's read all of them. Figures out they would be perfect in implementing his plan. He decides to give Sam the way to save dean but something happened. Sam would grab onto it and then FREEZE UP. Then discard it. Metranon sent a couple other plays toward Sam. According to everything he's read espceially in S4 Sam should have just rolled with it no questions. And then Sam did something more surprising. He tried to drive off a cliff. So Metranon thew a Dog in front of him...and it worked because he knows Sam cant resist a dog. But then Sam again didn't do what he expected. And settled down. But Metranon figured at least he knew where Sam was when he got Dean.
So metranon decided to findCas in Purg, tell him how to get Deaqn out. But Cas was staying away from Dean so Metraon had to pick a purg native. It took like six monsters before Dean actually listened to one and the plan worked.
Except Sam was playing house with the vet. So he brought Don back to life, pretended to be Amelias dadto wake SAm up. Samm would go back to the cabin where Dean was. And FINALLY Metranons plan was FINALLY in motion.
Basically Metranon uses the SN books as a guide on how to manipuate the Winchesters. But they kept doing stuff he didn't except. :)
i'm hoping its by mid season at least.
Metranon is all upsrt. Going on "is this the thanks I get for savingt your lives? Dean snarks. Sam asks what the hell is he talking about. MAtranon hold up the SN books. He's read all of them. Figures out they would be perfect in implementing his plan. He decides to give Sam the way to save dean but something happened. Sam would grab onto it and then FREEZE UP. Then discard it. Metranon sent a couple other plays toward Sam. According to everything he's read espceially in S4 Sam should have just rolled with it no questions. And then Sam did something more surprising. He tried to drive off a cliff. So Metranon thew a Dog in front of him...and it worked because he knows Sam cant resist a dog. But then Sam again didn't do what he expected. And settled down. But Metranon figured at least he knew where Sam was when he got Dean.
So metranon decided to findCas in Purg, tell him how to get Deaqn out. But Cas was staying away from Dean so Metraon had to pick a purg native. It took like six monsters before Dean actually listened to one and the plan worked.
Except Sam was playing house with the vet. So he brought Don back to life, pretended to be Amelias dadto wake SAm up. Samm would go back to the cabin where Dean was. And FINALLY Metranons plan was FINALLY in motion.
i'm hoping its by mid season at least.
i kind of got the feeling at the end of sacrifice that sam's dropping to his knees in pain happened at the same time the angels were being cast out from heaven....i was thinking that sam could feel the angels pain....a change that happened because he undertook the trials...
i just finished watching the great escapist....and in the scene where the boys are confronting metatron...just after cas puts the bullet in ion's eye and kills him, right at that same moment the scene goes back to sam and dean and you see sam wincing in pain....
if someone else wants to take a look at that scene....i'm beginning to think that sam does have some kind of connection with the angels....that he can feel their extreme pain or sense their death....
what do u think? am i seeing what's not there?