I'm setting aside all conspiracy theories this week.  I'm taking the whole episode for what we were given, because taking this suspense filled hour anywhere else will blow my freaking mind.  

Now that's out of the way, HOLY MOTHER OF CHUCK! 

That was one very emotionally gut wrenching, dig-my-nails-into-the-armchair hour of television.  I cried, I screamed, but most of all my heart shattered for these brothers, who don't mean to hurt each other, but they just can't avoid it right now.  They both think they're doing what's best, and sadly that's not putting them on the same page.  It's not making their predicaments any better either, and that pushes this emotional story into Shakespearian tragedy range.  Or Shakespeare if it played out in the deep south.  That tends to involve a lot of country music. 

"Sometimes it's not easy to see things for what they are."
 
Out of that entire hour of suspense, mixed loyalties, heartbreak, and intense drama it was this above quote from Sam that stuck with me the most.  There's the whole crux of the entire episode.  Often times the players in this story weren't able to look past their own perceptions, and it got them into a whole mess of trouble.

On the superficial level, that quote is about Benny and his new life, but it also applies to Sam and his relationship with Amelia.  No matter how hard they want to pretend, they weren't meant for those lives. But this comment also applies to Sam and Dean's current relationship.  It's fractured right now and neither are seeing each other's point of view.    

Sam started all this by bringing in Martin.  His logic was sound, he was helping out an old friend and tracking a vampire that he wasn't sure was staying in line.  He thought he had control of the situation, he thought he was protecting innocents.  I'm sure he didn't expect checking out two vampire kills would push him and Dean into an extreme test of loyalty.  When Dean told him, “Every relationship I've ever had has gone to crap at some point.  But the one thing I can say about Benny is he has never let me down,” the hurt on Sam's face was obvious.  Sure he responded with a sarcastic, “Well good on you Dean, it must be great finding someone you can trust after all these years,” but that ended up setting the boundaries.  Sam would take care of the situation with Martin and not Dean, because Dean wasn't seeing straight.

The fact that Dean a while ago programmed one of their extra phones to emulate Amelia's number, knowing one day he might need that to lure away or trick Sam, that action became both strategically brilliant and emotionally devastating.  That trick delivered poor Sammy a deep blow to his already shaky state.  He literally abandoned the hunt in process (Martin's a big boy, he could handle himself) just because he thought Amelia was in trouble.  It's a mode he jumps into out of instinct, a mode he does often for Dean.  Dean knew that, and he chose to play it.  No, Sam was not expecting to find that Amelia and Don were together again and doing fine (or so it seemed through the window). 

Judging by the fact that Sam was in a bar in Kermit after that drowning his sorrows with whiskey, something he only drinks alone when he's truly upset, the decoy shook him pretty hard.  He's hurt by the two people he cares for the most, the two people he'd bail on a hunt midway for.  In that hurt, Sam refused to hear the whole story from Dean.  All he knew is Martin was dead and Benny wasn't.  I really, really wonder where Sam was going to go before running into Amelia.  I think he was going after Benny.  

In defense of Dean though, he didn't fail Sam's loyalty test.  He passed it, albeit in a rather dickish way that only continued to alienate his brother.  Dean is still operating in survival mode.  There's no room for sparing feelings, including Sam's.  Dean sent that text message to protect both Sam and Benny.  To him it was the only way.  He knew that Benny was strong and would kill Sam in defense, but as he warned Benny Sam couldn't be underestimated either.  It gave them some time to kill the rogue vampire and give Benny a head start in going underground, all while keeping Sam out of harms way.  He didn't choose one over another.  However, in order to achieve that purpose, he played on Sam's deep emotional trigger, knowing he would drop everything.

No doubt that was a hard choice.  No doubt Dean knew Sam would be pissed at him and I'm sure he wondered if it was wise to send Sam running to Amelia.  He told Benny, “Guys like us, we don't get a home, and we don't get family.” Benny replied, “You've got Sam.”  Dean gave him an uncertain, “Yeah.”  He didn't know at that point how things stood with his brother, but he knew it wasn't good.  I'm sure he wondered if Sam would ever talk to him again.  He definitely knows trust is out the window. 

I doubt Dean regrets his actions and felt like he did the right thing because both Benny and Sam are alive.  He could also justify it since Sam pushed him into that predicament in the first place.  Dean's more hard edged now and he isn't going to sugarcoat things.  There's no room for hurt feelings.  He had his reasons and it's done.  He also figures that Sam is a big boy and he'll get over this.  They after all have a history with this sort of thing.  Not that he won't try to make things right.  As we see in the preview, he goes to find Sam.  He's not giving up on his brother.  

So, there's the impasse, the inability for both brothers to see things the way they are.  Dean can't see the deep emotional impact that having a normal life did to Sam.  He thinks she's just a girl.  Sam can't see that Dean has been profoundly changed by Purgatory and that Benny is more to him that a friend.  He's a brother.  By being unable to accept the other people in their lives, they can't accept each other. 


Other Notes

I was really glad to see the return of Martin, but it shouldn't have been shocking to find out he was that unbalanced.  He did after all come out of a nuthouse.  He was clearly in no shape to hunt, and every one of his actions showed it, like him sharply stabbing ice cubes out of an ice tray.  The person who deserves the most blame for killing Martin is Martin.  He was warned, but in that theme of not seeing things for what they are, let his hatred for monsters blind his judgment.  Using an innocent human as bait is low, especially a girl that was nothing but sweet to him.  He ahd it coming.  Did you notice that Martin brought up John and how he wouldn't approve of what Dean was doing?  John's been coming up a lot this season.  You suppose that's intentional? 

Oh Benny.  I was so scared for Benny the whole episode.  I really thought they would kill him.  Thank you, thank you, thank you for not killing him!!  TPTB played on our fear of characters we like dying by adding a lot of suspense over whose dead body was in the restaurant when Dean arrived.  When Benny laid his head on the counter with tears in his eyes, staring into the teary face of his great granddaughter, I lost it. Well, well done. Ty Olsson, you rule. 

So, did Benny kill Martin or Elizabeth?  There was no sign of bite marks, and the presence of a lot of blood indicates Benny didn't feed.  I say Benny did it.  Considering the knife was in Martin's left hand, Benny likely blocked the machete strike from his right hand, grabbed the knife and started slicing.  Elizabeth was right in the middle of it to get all the splatter.  Only a forensics expert can tell me I'm wrong!  

This was the first appearance as director for Nick Copus on Supernatural and what an amazing job he did.  He's previously done work on Nikita, another favorite show of mine.  He used some very interesting and unique camera angles that set the tone of this tragic story perfectly.  He added tension during Martin's talk on the phone with Benny by focusing on the slow way Martin was pushing around the pie on the plate.  He used slightly distorted close-ups of Martin holding a knife to Elizabeth's throat to accent Martin's unhinged state and Benny's growing fire within.  My two favorite shots though were the POV from the bucket of water as Benny washed his bloody hands, and the shot through the screen door from inside the restaurant, with Elizabeth sitting on the porch and the headlights of the Impala in the hazy night approaching.  Both were very ominous and notched up the horror by a lot. 

This was also the first solo script for Daniel Loflin.  He and Andrew Dabb are the most senior writers on the show aside from Ben Edlund, so I'm actually stunned it took this long for him to get a solo turn.  He delivered in a massive way, giving us the best episode of the season thus far.  The problem is a lot of these stories over the last couple of seasons haven't had the nail biting suspense or kept me guessing all the way to the end.  They've also seemed very formulaic.  With this episode, I was on the edge of my seat all the way through and couldn't predict any of it.  To be able to do that in season eight of a very suspense filled show says a lot.  Given Andrew Dabb's decent script from last week as well, I vote these guys start writing on their own from now on.    
   
Overall Grade, an A.  When the show comes back on January 16th (what????), it looks like we'll be getting a pivotal episode in what's happening to Castiel.  Hopefully this will explain some things with Sam and Dean as well.  Six weeks isn't so long, right?  Yeah, I'll be a wreck too.  

Comments  

FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-12-06 17:43
Alice,

What a great review. Thanks for taking the time to type up what many of us are thinking but don't have the eloquence to say. I soooooo agree with you on all points above (except one), and I am relieved that someone else loved that last ep as much as I did!!

I cried when Benny put his head down. I was relieved when it was shown that Martin - and not Benny - lost the fight. I love Benny for his character, and also because any friend of Dean's, I'll love.

But after having a day to think about it, I sort of think - don't chop my head off here - that maybe Benny should've died. It would be incredibly heart wrenching, but that's not unlike SPN. Considering he has really nothing left now - with his girl gone and his great-grand-dau ghter possilbly repulsed by his vamp nature... Even before this whole tragedy he'd already struggled with this renewed life of his... The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I'll be sad if he died, but that I would've come to believe it was for the best. For Benny, as well as S & D. Having Benny around isn't really helping the Winchesters' interaction. Perhaps with him gone, especially killed by Martin and not by Sam, maybe they can finally bury that issue. Guess we'll never know.

Other than that, I agree with you. I don't think Sam had done anything wrong here. Dean behaved like a dick, yes, but I do believe he's not fully aware of the consequences. He's just doing what he thinks will work, and was blind to the side effects. That was possible one of the most intense TV-hour I've ever experienced!!!
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-06 18:27
Hi again, FoolForDean- Sadly I think the handwriting is on the wall for Benny and has been since the introduction of the character. I am sure that it will come to a head and Dean will have to kill his buddy someday. This will be sad because many of us have grown fond of Benny. On the other hand I might be absolutely wrong. That's me, no courage of my convictions!! Ha.
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-12-06 19:03
Quote:
Hi again, FoolForDean- Sadly I think the handwriting is on the wall for Benny and has been since the introduction of the character. I am sure that it will come to a head and Dean will have to kill his buddy someday. This will be sad because many of us have grown fond of Benny. On the other hand I might be absolutely wrong. That's me, no courage of my convictions!! Ha.
Hi Leah, you might be right. I'm sure Benny will die, but I hope not at Dean's hand. If it came to that Dean had to kill Benny, it would be plain tragic - more for Dean than for Benny. I think that Benny will accept his fate should it dictate that he has to die again. Dean, however, might just crumble from having to kill yet another friend. The ordeal with Cas took him forever to recover, and even now, though Dean has forgiven Cas, he clearly hasn't forgotten it. If this happens again with Benny... Aw man, my heart would break for Dean!!!
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-06 20:38
So true FoolFor Dean, but the show likes to put the guys thru the wringer for angsty episodes and I suspect Dean even sees this as the eventual outcome. It would kill him though. I am enjoying the S8 Dean (well, any season Dean but S7) and his newfound confidence and purpose so I really hope I am wrong as I don't want him set back to depressed again. If Benny asked him to ala Bobby asking the boys to torch the flash it might be a tolerable and fitting ending for Benny. Damn I just choked myself up.
MisterGlass
# MisterGlass 2012-12-07 11:18
No doubt, Benny is at risk, and may be killed by one of the brothers. Dean can and would kill a 'brother' if it were necessary for saving others, but I am not sure that Dean could bring himself to do kill Benny, because now he knows where Benny will end up. He's been there, he's lived it, and he barely survived. I cannot see him sending anyone he cares for there, however necessary the death would be.
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-12-07 13:35
Actually, I think Dean would send Benny back to Purgatory if Benny ended up hurting an innocent (though it would hurt Dean himself immensely to do so) - precisely because he had witnessed Benny in Purgatory and very well knows that Benny can - and did - handle himself there. Although I really, really, hope it won't ever come to that :)
MisterGlass
# MisterGlass 2012-12-07 20:51
Benny was a survivor, and he did say he didn't have to contend with hunger in Purgatory, so that's one less hurdle. Still, there would be no escape for Benny this time. It would be an eternity of running and fighting. Dean will have to weigh the two, if it comes to that.

I too hope it doesn't come to that!
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-07 20:13
I kind of botched the last part, what I was trying to say was it might come to the place where Benny can't resist temptation any more and ask Dean to take him out. As Bobby did when asked the boys to burn his flask to prevent him from doing any more harm. I think Benny would prefer that Dean do it because they are friends and comrades. Not to say I want Benny to die, I really love the character, but it kinda seems inevitable. :-(
MisterGlass
# MisterGlass 2012-12-07 20:53
That's scenario I could see. Dean would see that as a duty, not just as a hunter, but as a friend.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 04:08
Quote:
but it kinda seems inevitable.
I didn't see anything in the show that makes Benny's death inevitable.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 04:53
Call it a gut feeling coupled with shown signs of Benny struggling to control his urges. I am pretty sure the show is going there eventually.
Amelia
# Amelia 2012-12-06 20:41
I wonder if Liz would understand, if it were explained to her. She seems like a caring sort. If she did, it might give Benny some hope that he can live in this world.

And I definitely think the boys need to get past their issues without having to kill an innocent man to do it. Burying their problems by executing Benny, when Benny had done nothing wrong, would've been evil, and our boys aren't evil, just a little messed up. ;)

I think they both behaved like dicks in this ep, Dean with the phonecall and Sam with chaining Dean to the radiator with an untreated head wound and abandoning a mental hospital patient in the middle of nowhere with no explanation. But that's par for the course, when they're fighting. ;) No point in the blame game.
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-12-07 13:31
Oh no, I definitely didn't mean to say one of the brothers should kill Benny just so they can bury the issue. I just meant if Martin had killed Benny in that moment, perhaps the issue could be buried. Mostly, because then Sam won't have kill him later and we can avoid another falling out between S & D.

As canon stands right now with Benny out and about, I fear that eventually he will be killed by Sam or Dean - and neither scenario could be good for our boys. And I just want them to be good and alright. They've been through enough. Would it kill the writers to give us some fluffy brotherly love once in a long awaited while???
E
# E 2012-12-08 13:24
I think you are probably right SOD, I think Benny's days are numbered. I am not quite ready to have him go yet though. I think he's going to play a larger role in events to come. I wouldn't even be surprised to find him somehow enmeshed in the WOG story arc. And call me sick, but all the drama that he is inadvertently creating between the brothers is oooooooh so delicious! Sorry for the abbreviations I am commenting from my phone. How dedicated (read sad) is that?
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-06 18:11
Hi Alice, I completely agree with your take on all the various scenarios. I'm kinda glad that we are not going heavy into theories here because as I said in another comment I am feeling a little theory fatigue about now.

Loved Ty Olsson this episode. I have upgraded from liking him. He was heartbreaking when he lay his neck on the bar.

I agree about Deans motivations for the text. I don't feel it was primarily about hurting Sam even though it did. It is very hard to keep watching them hurting each other when they so clearly love each other and cannot get back to each other emotionally.

The Amelia thing last night puzzled me in that how did she know he was there? She clearly (to me) did not see him peering in the window. Did I miss something? I was kind of tired when I watched the show. Then she leaves Don and pops into a bar and says I knew it was you. Huh?

I thought Nick Copus did a great job and I liked that the look was more reminiscent of the washed-out gritty look of earlier seasons. Daniel Loflin hit it out also. Awesome entertainment.

Thanks Alice for the great review AND the Bitterness Thread!!
Dawn N
# Dawn N 2012-12-06 18:13
I agree with you Alice that it was Benny who killed Martin. His neck wasn't exactly cut it looked like it was skinned and my guess a lot of the blood Elizabeth had on her was arterial spray.

I thought this was a great multi-layered episode and despite Jan. 16th feeling so far away I'm not complaining, as I'm more than happy for a mini-Hellatus versus the almost painfully long Hiatus lengths we've become used to.
st50
# st50 2012-12-06 18:44
Great review, Alice!
Thank you. I adored this episode. One of the best for sure, and the best of Season 8 to date.

Ty Olsson was fabulous. As were Liane Balaban and the actors who played Martin and Don. We've seen the actress who played Elizabeth before, but I liked her better in this role than the freaked out mom.

(BTW, I wonder if perhaps Amelia and Don happened to stop in at the bar, and she recognized Sam's back, and approached him with "I thought it was you"... Maybe we'll see that in the next episode.)

JP and JA were absolutely on the top of their game in this episode. Fantastic stuff.

I agree, and have commented elsewhere on the site that Dean texted Sam to keep him away. He'd warned Sam about Benny, and warned Benny about Sam. He was trying to protect them both in the only way he knew. But that sure didn't help Sam's emotional state!

Once again, we saw that overwhelming panic. How many times must this poor guy have felt like he just wasn't in the right place or doing the right things to save the one he loves. How much a failure must he feel about not having Dean's back, letting him down, not able to rescue him. (NOT saying that I believe he should feel all that, but I think he does.)...

They've got to hit bottom and start the blows soon, so we can start to recover, don't you think? Gosh it's going to be a long time until Jan. 16th!
Amelia
# Amelia 2012-12-06 19:05
Loved this episode! I really felt everything Benny was going through... they chose a very charming actress for Liz (I thought the sparks between her and Dean were good, too), and she was believable to me as someone Benny held so precious that he'd lay his neck on that bar for. Oh, Benny. So glad they didn't kill him off.
MelT
# MelT 2012-12-06 19:22
It appeared to me that the entire front of Martin's neck was ripped out. It did not look like a clean sharp knife stroke, so I'm going with Benny doing it resulting in Liz getting sprayed.

Of course, I think Benny probably killed the other 2 people also. Not sure, but we don't know for sure.
E
# E 2012-12-08 23:25
I wondered about this too. I think Show did a great job at keeping it vague. Benny says there is another vamp killing people and we did see him, but the only vamp we saw with a vamp kill was Benny, and he was covering it up to boot. But then again, what's he supposed to do? Leave a vamp kill lying around for the authorities to find? Hmmmm. Benny could very easily be playing Dean right now. Did anyone else feel like it took Benny FOREVER to step into the fight between Dean and rogue vamp Desmond (name??). All my suspicions were aroused suddenly only to be quelled once again by Benny's awesomeness. He's so utterly charming and seemingly soft hearted. Show has been really great about hiding it's true motivations from us. I speculate and speculate but I don't feel especially confident about any of my theories. How awesome is that? When's the last time this show kept us REALLY guessing?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 13:05
I find Benny's story interesting. According to Benny, Desmond comes to town wanting Benny in his new nest. When Benny refuses he tells him he's going to start dropping bodies so Benny gets outed as a vampire. Benny then says he doesn't think Desmond doesn't have the "stones" to do it. Why? Does Benny think vampires are sweet, gentle creatures with a great respect of human life so Desmond won't kill? Vampires kill people to survive. For Benny to say that he didn't believe that Desmond would kill makes no sense. Benny also says that he didn't leave because he didn't want to be driven from his home again. But WAY BACK in season one, we were told that once a vampire gets a scent they can find you for the rest of their lives. So even if Benny ran, Desmond would follow him and still keep dropping bodies. But whatever, Benny doesn't believe Desmond is dangerous. Then the first body drops. It just happens to be the old letch who is ogling Benny's granddaughter, not someone Benny would care about much one way or the other. But in any case, Benny should have been on notice that Desmond did indeed have the "stones" to kill in Benny's town. And yet Benny does nothing. He doesn't go and take care of Desmond, he doesn't call Dean and tell him there is a rogue vamp making it look like Benny is killing. He just buries the second body to cover up the latest murder. Yes he tells Dean he doesn't want him involved, but he's gotten Dean involved once before, he knows from Purgatory Dean can handle himself and he wants and needs Dean to know that he is still keeping his nose clean. In any case, Benny is in his town with at least one relative and someone he knows is a serial killer on the loose. I know we are all focused on Martin and Benny, but there are two other victims in this episode, guy from the bar and unnamed black girl. Maybe Benny didn't believe that Desmond would kill victim one (although why I can't imagine), but he had to know that there would be a victim two and as a moral point, his refusal to do anything about Desmond puts victim 2's blood on his hands to some extent. If Jeffery Dahmer had a partner who (found God, had a lobotomy, got medicated, whatever) and stopped killing and one day Jeffery Dahmer came into town, told old partner he wanted to work together and he was going to start killing again and the old partner didn't tell the police, or try to stop him he would be held morally and possibly legally responsible for any deaths. Benny bears some responsibility for Desmond's victims, if Desmond killed them.

Then there is Desmond. He knew Benny from "before" which at least meant he had a way of knowing that Liz was Benny's relative. But let's say he didn't. Desmond would have to be blind, deaf and an idiot to not know that Benny cared for Liz. Victim one picked up on it and asked Benny if she was taken. So if Desmond is SO determined to get Benny, why just drop random bodies? Why not attack Liz, leave her alive and tell Benny next time she gets turned. That's real leverage.

Of course, Dean acts foolishly in this scene as well. I'm going to go back and talk Sam and Martin into believing you. Don't go after Desmond because if they don't believe me and they see you trying to kill another vampire, they will kill you as well. Stay here, where you were easy to find and wait. Then if Sam and Martin don't believe me, they'll be able to find you lickety split.

This whole scene has great dialog, and wonderful acting, but the logic is all over the place. If it weren't for Dean's idea that Benny shouldn't go hide someplace, I would say that making Benny's story so illogical was meant to make us doubt him. In the end Benny's story boils down to "It wasn't me, it was a vampire I can't show you. I thought he was too cuddly and sweet to kill anyone. When he did kill someone, I thought he was just getting a little snicky snack before he left town. Now he's killed again. I was hiding the evidence and then I was going to kill him, right now. I mean really Dean, if you had shown up five minutes later you would have missed me because I would have been hunting Desmond. You want me to stay here and not hunt Desmond, well okay then." Benny's whole story has holes you can drive a truck through if you think about it, but so does Dean's reaction to it so I just don't know if Benny is guilty and Loflin just wrote the whole thing ambiguously so we should wonder if Benny is innocent or if it is just bad writing, trying to move the chess pieces into place so Sam and Martin can be at Benny's place, with no Benny, so Sam can get the message and leave Martin and the whole show can end the way it did.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-09 14:59
Quote:
Then the first body drops. It just happens to be the old letch who is ogling Benny's granddaughter, not someone Benny would care about much one way or the other. But in any case, Benny should have been on notice that Desmond did indeed have the "stones" to kill in Benny's town. And yet Benny does nothing. He doesn't go and take care of Desmond, he doesn't call Dean and tell him there is a rogue vamp making it look like Benny is killing. He just buries the second body to cover up the latest murder. Yes he tells Dean he doesn't want him involved, but he's gotten Dean involved once before, he knows from Purgatory Dean can handle himself and he wants and needs Dean to know that he is still keeping his nose clean. In any case, Benny is in his town with at least one relative and someone he knows is a serial killer on the loose. I know we are all focused on Martin and Benny, but there are two other victims in this episode, guy from the bar and unnamed black girl. Maybe Benny didn't believe that Desmond would kill victim one (although why I can't imagine), but he had to know that there would be a victim two and as a moral point, his refusal to do anything about Desmond puts victim 2's blood on his hands to some extent.
Quote:
Of course, Dean acts foolishly in this scene as well. I'm going to go back and talk Sam and Martin into believing you. Don't go after Desmond because if they don't believe me and they see you trying to kill another vampire, they will kill you as well. Stay here, where you were easy to find and wait. Then if Sam and Martin don't believe me, they'll be able to find you lickety split.
Quote:
This whole scene has great dialog, and wonderful acting, but the logic is all over the place. If it weren't for Dean's idea that Benny shouldn't go hide someplace, I would say that making Benny's story so illogical was meant to make us doubt him. In the end Benny's story boils down to "It wasn't me, it was a vampire I can't show you. I thought he was too cuddly and sweet to kill anyone. When he did kill someone, I thought he was just getting a little snicky snack before he left town. Now he's killed again. I was hiding the evidence and then I was going to kill him, right now. I mean really Dean, if you had shown up five minutes later you would have missed me because I would have been hunting Desmond. You want me to stay here and not hunt Desmond, well okay then." Benny's whole story has holes you can drive a truck through if you think about it, but so does Dean's reaction to it
I think you have caught on to exactly what we were supposed to catch on to. Benny's story is extraordinarily fishy, and Sam is right - Dean's "too close to this" to see it, hence his illogical reaction to all this. He doesn't want to believe that Benny would let him down. But what Sam said is exactly right - "You wanted some time and I gave you some time; now there's a second body."

If Benny values human life such that he refuses to drain people, why would he wait for that second body to drop? Why not go after Desmond immediately? And the first body? It is extremely coincidental that it was a creepy old dude who came across as sexual predator looking to get with Benny's great-granddaug hter.

Also notice how Benny slips when talking to Dean and refers to his old vampire past as the "good old days." I'm thinking either a) Benny has been playing Dean from the very, very beginning (how did he learn about that portal out of Purgatory for humans, anyway?), or b) Benny slipped up without intending to, and he knows that he's a dead vamp if Dean finds out, or maybe he truly doesn't want to disappoint his comrade. Maybe he hates himself, but the instincts to survive are so much stronger. Remember the scene where Benny puts his head on a plate for Martin to cut it off - the power in that scene was knowing what a struggle this character has faced in fighting his urges, suppressing his nature. Yet when Martin brought that blade down, that same nature finally took over, and he crossed the line.

It's also possible that Benny is "innocent" - but again, as Sam said, we know how these things usually go.
E
# E 2012-12-09 20:18
I am suspicious of Benny too. I don't really want to be, and I like Benny a whole lot, suspicions and all, but I think you guys are right, the story was intentionally fishy and confusing. And also, there really were three bodies wasn't there? The first body being the one that caused Sam to want someone watching Benny to begin with. By the time Sam and Dean agreed to go look into Benny, there was already one body, no2 was creepy guy and no3 was unnamed girl in the woods. That's a pretty substantial body count.

Dean's investigation into the whole Benny situation consisted of talking to Benny and nothing more. That's not good hunting.
E
# E 2012-12-10 07:16
FYI, I am remembering this wrong. The first body, the one that Martin called about was creepy guy from the gumbo shack, with the kill happening in the cold opening. Realized my error on re-watch!
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 13:09
"If Benny values human life such that he refuses to drain people, why would he wait for that second body to drop? Why not go after Desmond immediately? And the first body? It is extremely coincidental that it was a creepy old dude who came across as sexual predator looking to get with Benny's great-granddaug hter. "

Perhaps the second murder occurred because Benny was working on finding Desmond. Can't kill him and stop the desths if you don't know where the murderer is.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 13:07
Vampires don't necessarily kill. Some have a drink of a person and continue to use the blood host. Dean talked to Benny found out the truth and then returned because Sam only gave him a couple of hours so he wanted to make sure they wouldn't try to harm Benny while he tracked Desmond. He tried to get Benny to take a back seat and let him handle it. In Prentis Island Benny had no choice because he was bleeding out but after he began to heal he tried to get Dean to go but Dean insisted on backing him up when confronting his maker. As for attacking /luz Martin did and look what happen there.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 13:20
Quote:
Vampires don't necessarily kill. Some have a drink of a person and continue to use the blood host.
How is that even remotely okay?

I agree that vampires don't necessarily kill, and it's more acceptable if they drink blood from animals or blood banks to survive. But drinking a person - regardless of whether they drain them or not - that's reprehensible. Benny is innocent until shown guilty, of course. But there is much more evidence supporting his guilt than his innocence right now. That's just a fact.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 13:31
Didn't say it was. There is a writer who writes vampire romance novel series called Midnight Breed who has the blood host aware of what it mean to be a host and freely gives the blood until the vamp finds their mate and then the mates can only drink from each other.

Dean has repeatedly tried to communicate with Sam who has turned a deaf ear until in frustration Dean has tried to talk with less then dipolmatic manners.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 16:25
Quote:
There is a writer who writes vampire romance novel series called Midnight Breed who has the blood host aware of what it mean to be a host and freely gives the blood until the vamp finds their mate and then the mates can only drink from each other.
Okay...but that's not SPN. I don't think that would work for SPN. I certainly don't think Sam or Dean would go for it. And I still find it disturbing. :P
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2012-12-06 19:37
Thank You for your words and helping me to see even more... And to have such an amazing episode, with such depth, when the show is in its 8th season. What a gift! Loved it!!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-06 19:57
Superb review of a superb episode!

You truly summed it up well with this line:
Quote:
By being unable to accept the other people in their lives, they can’t accept each other.
Also: thank you for noticing and pointing out that Benny may not have drunk from Martin due to the copious blood loss. I didn't think of that even the second time I watched. And the final scene - I agree with you that Sam was so angry and hurt that he was likely going after Benny right then and there. I'm glad Amelia showed up when she did.

One thing I did wonder - why was Elizabeth up to her elbows in blood? I understand splatter, of course. But that wasn't splatter. To me looked as if she had maybe tried to staunch the bloodflow and save Martin's life. Excellent actress, btw. Someone else noted in another thread that she played the tormented mother in "The Kids Are Alright". She was as memorable then as she was this time around.

Another note - she seemed very shifty when Dean was asking about Roy. Is it possible she knew more than she let on? I honestly doubt it, but the thought was there.

Again, thanks for the insightful, fantastic review!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-06 20:39
I liked the episode for what it was,but it would have been okay if this was after hellatus.The torture of waiting for Sam's story for six weeks....
1) I did not like not knowing how much Dean told Sam about Desmond.Also what were Sam and Martin going to do?
2) Dean and Benny relationship is progressing nicely.
3) Unless and until I get Sam's POV my enjoyment derived is tarnished by dissatisfaction .
4)I thought Sam's FBs were nostalgia and it looks to be true.
5) Dean trusts Benny more, natural, I can understand Dean's POV.
6) Sam,please kick Dean out of your motel room when he comes to meet you.You do not have an obligation to be with Dean.Just leave happily and live happily even if it means the show loses you.
7) Benny killed Martin and did not drink blood.I would have not liked if Benny killed martin or not killed Martin so its neither here not there.
8)I am still clueless about Sam and for six weeks there is no hope.
CJ
# CJ 2012-12-07 09:57
Quote:
6) Sam,please kick Dean out of your motel room when he comes to meet you.You do not have an obligation to be with Dean.Just leave happily and live happily even if it means the show loses you.
Why so much Dean hate? If u read Alice's review it would be clear that their actions are becos they both love each other too much. So why should Sam kick Dean out? Not sure if u get the show at all. U are entitled to ur opinion but i do find it hypocritical that u constantly complain of Sam hate on other websites but u are ok with propogating Dean hate here.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-07 14:33
I'm not sure how that can be classed as Dean hate, obviously this person wants Sam to be happy and Sam clearly isnt happy when he's with Dean.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 00:45
Quote:
Why so much Dean hate?
That was not Dean hate.I assure you.At the end of the spectre episode Sam told Dean he will move on .I want Sam to follow that up and not amicably.I am indifferent to Dean or Dean's plight because i can't connect to Dean (either love or hate).Quote:
So why should Sam kick Dean out?
This not because of Dean hate..I don't think Sam will be happy with Dean and also i don't want Sam to let Dean off the hook so easily.Quote:
U are entitled to ur opinion but i do find it hypocritical that u constantly complain of Sam hate on other websites but u are ok with propogating Dean hate here.
You see what you want to see.You are welcome to.Oh ,I have seen Sam hate in this website too .
To reiterate i don't feel anything for Dean.Dean can be happy ,Sad,Judge Sam or think every person in this world is better brother than Sam.I don't want Sam to be unhappy and that I Think is away from Dean.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 01:04
Let me add I can see Sam hate in this thread if I want to or don't want to and i try not to see Sam hate.(but when it is glaringly obvious it becomes hard not to).
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 12:41
you kind of have to learn to live with it and ignore it, I usually skip past posts when I see there written by cenrtain posters who I know are Sam haters.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 12:44
I have to agree with your last paragraph, I just want Sam to be happy and I think the only way fro him to be happy is to not be with Dean. Dean can do, say, be whatever he wants I have no feelings towards his character either way.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-06 20:56
Wonderful review Alice - I agree with your take on pretty much everything.

I loved the scene in Martins room where everyone was SO wired and SO reasonable, one wrong word and it would have all blown up - but Sam and Dean both went for the 'ok, I trust your judgement' angle. Later on if Martin had even been a little bit more sane it might all have gone a different way. Watching the revelation for Sam that Martin was NOT ok and likely to be a loose cannon (and that was before he hit Dean over the head) was really unnerving too.

I don't think it entirely matters who killed Martin. Either Elizabeth or Benny had the right in self-defense. But of course the difference is that Benny is a 'monster' and Elizabeth is not (though for a moment I thought she was going to turn out to be a vampire too). Assuming Benny didn't feed he still has done nothing wrong. But he says it is getting harder. Maybe he will revert while still wanting not to give in to his monster side.

Possibly Benny's purpose in the story is to bring Sam and Dean to realize that it isn't necessarily up to a hunter to be judge, jury and executioner always (Like Sam said in season 1 "Our job is hunting evil and if they aren't killing people they aren't evil"). Benny has free will and is a rational being, maybe he has the right to decide his own destiny?

What I want to know is where was Dean heading off to, singing in the car like all is good with the world, before Elizabeth called him back?
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-06 22:12
I figured Dean was heading to Kermit, TX to meet up with Sam. I think Dean has severely underestimated the real depth of feeling Sam has for Amelia.

As far as that depth goes -- I think there's an element of transference in it. Sam lost Dean and projected all those strong messy hurt feelings into the relationship with Amelia. Amelia represents all that longing for 'normal' which surfaces in Sam whenever he's upset and off balance -- like a coping mechanism, like I would say "I want to go home!" Or "I want my Mommy!" Sam says "I want to have a normal life!"
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-08 00:16
Quote:
As far as that depth goes -- I think there's an element of transference in it. Sam lost Dean and projected all those strong messy hurt feelings into the relationship with Amelia. Amelia represents all that longing for 'normal' which surfaces in Sam whenever he's upset and off balance -- like a coping mechanism, like I would say "I want to go home!" Or "I want my Mommy!" Sam says "I want to have a normal life!"
You get a point there. I know when I feel like crying "I want Mommyyy!!!" I know that it's just my hurt feeling speaking and I may not following to that but after I cool down I realize that this is my life and I have to grow up. It'll be good to hear mom's voice, though.

Sam, even until this episode is still hurting and want his 'mommy'. "Dean's mean to me, I want mommy" translates to "Dean doesn't trust me anymore, I hate this life, I want normal life" Sam just needs to be needed.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-08 09:14
Yes! Especially when 'stone number one' is the cause of his upset -- Sam wants his 'normal life.'

I like this analogy! Sam's even said that he wants 'normal' to feel safe. Sounds like 'Mommy" to me!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-08 09:21
But Dean DOESN'T trust Sam anymore, maybe hasn't trusted him totally in a long time. The reasons are understandable. First there was Ruby and right when Dean was sort of letting go of that, Sam jumped in the Cage. Then Sam came back Soulless and again wasn't trustworthy because he wasn't Sam. Then Sam gets his soul back and he can't be trusted because the wall could fall at any minute. Then the wall falls and Sam can't be fully trusted because he's hallucinating. So even before Sam didn't look for Dean, Dean had formed a pattern of not trusting Sam. And Dean has been clear he doesn't trust Sam. You don't send someone you trust on a wild goose chase if you trust them.

For me, Sam wanting normal is nothing like wanting mommy, Sam never really had normal, even his time with Jess was surrounded by demons and manipulation. What Sam wants may be a dream, or he may really have found some peace with Amelia. I hope he did find peace with Amelia, he has had little peace or stability in his life.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-08 10:51
Right -- and Dean not trusting Sam is Sam not having 'stone number one'.
Of course Sam never had 'normal' -- its about him wanting 'normal' -- to feel safe, secure, wanted, trusted -- call it 'peace' instead of 'mommy' -- Sam's never had it.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 12:28
and he's probably never going to have unless he accepts that hunting is all he's ever going to have he's never going to find any semblance of peace and even then for Sam its only a matter of time before something comes along again to throw a spanner in even that little bit of peace.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 14:12
True. There is no such thing as a safe life. You could get cancer. Get hit by a drunk driver running a red light. Stop by a store for milk and walk into a robbery and be shot and killed. Everytime Sam has tried to have a 'safe life' it's ended in diaster. How many times does fate need to keep kicking Sam in the teeth before he realizes that Winchesters don't do 'normal'?
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 12:37
so Sam wanting out of hunting equates to him not being a grown up?

Why does Sam have to accept hunting as his life if he doesnt want to be a hunter? Dean likes hunting he's doing what he wants but Sam doesn't want that, he just has to suck it up and live with it?

And no I dont equate Sam wanting normal with him 'wanting his mommy' or just because his relationship with Dean isnt going well. Sam has always wanted normal even when things have been going well with Dean, he just never thought he could have it so he never bothered to try or never said he wanted it (talking about the past few seasons) not to mention talking about it would most likely just get him nothing but grief from Dean, being called selfish by your own brother because you dont want to spend all your life sitting in a car with him doing something he loves but you hate isnt exactly something Sam would want to hear again.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 13:48
(Edited by Alice - Hi Tawrens! I really do like your differing POV in this discussion, but on this site, we don't allow labeling and slamming fans. It's disrespectful, showing respect is our number one rule. So I'm editing your comments about various types of fans. I accept you're new here, so this is just a basic reminder. Our rules are here:

www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules.html)

No but Sam keeps saying he wants out but doesn't do it. He's an adult as far as the law is concerned and he could leave like he did with Stanford why didn't he? I'm not a Sam hater but unlike some I'm not willing to let him get away without calling him on his screwups. (Edited) I'm a John girl but I'm not afraid to call him on his screw ups and will defend him with intelligent arguements not rants or oh you must be a John hater. I won't refuse to accept that John has made mistakes. Nobody's perfect and it's been known to happen but when other SN characters screw up they own up and deal with it. (Edited)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-07 02:59
But if that is what they are going to learn
1) Sam was already cool with that ,It will feel contrived with respect to Sam.
2)There is no need of hunters.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-07 15:26
Well there are monsters and monsters - what S and D used to do was more like pest control :D

Hunters are totally needed in this universe
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 01:14
Quote:
Well there are monsters and monsters
and to decide between monsters and monsters ,they have to be judge and jury and then carry out whatever they decide to and they have been doing that.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 02:01
I am not really sure what side you are taking on this to be honest :-) Are we agreeing on this?

What I am trying to say is that some non-human entities are capable of thinking through their actions and behaving in a moral way and others either aren't or don't want to. Some humans also behave amorally.

But it is ok for hunters to kill any and all supernatural beings because they are supernatural, but not to do the same for humans because that is vigilantism. Even though, as in this case, the humans may behave the same or worse than the 'monsters'.

I just see that Benny represents this gray area (as other creatures have before) and I think that might be what the writers have planned for him. Basically a more complex version of the Lenore story.

Ghosts, rugaru, demons, shapeshifters, they are all either non-sentient or raging psychopaths and so need to be hunted.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 02:37
I agree, He is more comlex because his story is being told and he has a personal connection with Dean.Quote:
But it is ok for hunters to kill any and all supernatural beings because they are supernatural
It was not okay that is what Sam used to say I think now also but I don't completely know Sam's mindset.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 01:56
Hi Eilf, interesting you should say you thought that Elizabeth might turn out to be a vamp. In my spoilery head I always try and figure out the outcome as I watch the show. I thought the same thing and I took it one step further , thinking she might be responsible for the local kills. I thought Benny might be covering for her. They never really established who killed Martin. In retrospect, nah.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 02:09
Yeah, it wasn't even a thought out thing it was just 'She's a vampire!!' and then, no wait there is no reason she should be a vampire! :D

The other thing that totally got me in the episode was the phonecall. That was so far out of left field that it was Dean doing it! OMG. I really thought that it was all in Sam's head.

If all the flashback weirdness setup throughout the season was for that one moment of misdirection though ....
:Leah
# :Leah 2012-12-08 02:49
Gotta say I love the" out of left field" stuff. It is all wonderfully unpredictable. No matter how much I try!! The text? I actually thought that someone shady was trying to separate the boys for some nefarious purpose and that Sam was going to be tapped on the shoulder as he peeked in Amelia's window. Wrong again. Dean was a bad boy!!

I am one that hopes there is more to the FB weirdness than a moment of misdirection also. This season is both frustrating and compelling. I want twists and turns that we don't anticipate. So far so good.

Oh yeah, I thought Elisabeth might have been turned by the rouge. Before Benny entered the scene. It was a shakey theory, I know.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 11:17
Quote:
Oh yeah, I thought Elisabeth might have been turned by the rouge. Before Benny entered the scene. It was a shakey theory, I know.


oh good point! Not the shaky-est theory either - though I assume that vampires can recognize each other by a lack of heartbeat? Benny would have known.

However if Elizabeth had been changed while Benny was away then he wouldn't have known she was a vampire until he walked into the restaurant. Then he could have just worked to distract Martin while Elizabeth attacked.

In lore though, if Elizabeth were Desmond's childe she would be loyal to him and Benny, being the one that killed him, would not have been her favorite person.

Now maybe Benny made her into a vampire so that he could keep his family with him ....
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-06 21:59
I'm not convinced that Benny killed Martin. I'm wondering if Elizabeth did it accidently when attempting to save Benny. Benny was in a difficult position to physically get to Martin and was resigned to die. Then with all the blood he runs off leaving a dazed Elizabeth to call Dean.

It was an excellent episode. I just wished I like the Sam s/l better.
lely
# lely 2012-12-06 23:32
Thanks Alice, for your review! I also really liked the bucket POV bloody hand-washing shot. And now I want to watch the whole episode again so I can better appreciate the other director's choices you pointed out. btw, Thanks for including that sort of thing in your reviews. It's clear you know a lot about the production side of things and I like learning more about it.

So much great stuff in this episode. How charming was Dean in the pie scene?! Loved the tension between Benny and Dean -- "Wanna safety that thing?" And I know it was a smaller part, but I thought Desmond was delightfully douchy. Plus, holy crap, the look on Benny's face when he wants to drink Dean's blood. zomg.

I also thought the locations folks did an excellent job with a canadian louisiana. :-)
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-12-07 00:32
Very interesting review, Alice. I agree with you that the episode was very suspenseful, and it's been a while since I could say that. It was even more solid on re-watch when I FF'd all the boring Sam/Amelia flashbacks out.

I agree with you on Dean's reasons for the phone trick, plus it was very smart of him. Isn't it sad that Dean knew Sam would betray him again and had already prepared for it. It could even be argued that Dean gave Sam a choice and Sam made another wrong choice.

I disagree with you on Sam's logic for calling in Benny, but I suspect the current showrunner and writers haven't watched the entire series.

Dean listened to and gave Sam a chance with Lenore and her nest of vamps, and Sam didn't think they needed to be tracked. Dean listened to and gave Sam's idea a chance in Metamorphosis. Travis died in that episode for the same wrong choices that Sam made in this episode, except that his bad choice to bring a mental patient into a hunt caused Martin's death in this one. Then, too, Sam didn't even question whether Amy would need to be watched or not, and he had only known her for maybe a couple of hours before they bonded over their sucky lives at the tender age of 15 or less. So, no, I don't think Sam's logic was sound at all.

Which brings me to my second point. This was the mid-season finale and the cliffhanger scene was Sam and Amelia reuniting. This tells me Carver is fully invested in Sam's love story, which has been given an inordinate amount of screen time that cuts into every action scene we've seen.

Because it was the mid-season finale, I kept waiting for something connected to the mytharc, or at least something connected to the supernature. I will not be holding my breath for six weeks in anticipation of watching more Sam and Amelia. Every time we have gotten a Sam flashback, it stops the action in the episode totally. This one, in particular, felt like I was watching two separate and totally different shows. In fact, neither the Dean/Benny or Sam/Amelia stories are connected to the mytharc in any way. That kind of leads me to believe that the mytharc is probably weak and won't have a lot of time devoted to it.

It appears to me that Carver has built the entire season around the two love triangles going on: Sam/Amelia/Don and Dean/Benny/Sam, and everything we've seen on screen revolves around these relationships. I'm not a fan of that kind of soap stuff and I don't like to watch paint dry, so the Sam/Amelia stuff is barely tolerable.
I also find it quite bizarre that Carver would make one of the leads look so bad so purposefully, while making a support character so very appealing and so fully developed.

Ty and Jon Gries both did excellent jobs. Martin went through various degrees of crazy in a very skilled way, and Ty hit all his scenes, but I particularly like he and Jensen together. They bring their very mature, complicated friendship to life with great ease.

So my opinion was that without the Sam/Amelia flashbacks, the episode was good, but didn't quite make sense as a mid-season finale...unless Sam and Amelia are the second half of the season. No A grade from me. I'd rate it around a 7.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-07 03:16
Yeah writers seem to have forgotten that Sam trusts that monsters can be good .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-07 03:29
Quote:
Dean listened to and gave Sam a chance with Lenore and her nest of vamps,
After he was convinced not on Sam's words alone.Quote:
Travis died in that episode for the same wrong choices that Sam made in this episode,
Travis died because of his own choices.Quote:
except that his bad choice to bring a mental patient into a hunt caused Martin's death in this one.
Who was out of the mental hospital.His problem was not his mental instability but the Same black and white view many other hunters have.Quote:
Sam didn't even question whether Amy would need to be watched or not,
And Dean treated Sam the same way how Sam treated him now so....Quote:
unless Sam and Amelia are the second half of the season.
Thank you for giving me a glimmer of hopeQuote:
which has been given an inordinate amount of screen time that cuts into every action scene we've seen.
That is the beauty of it.At the beginning of the season i too found the placement odd..but later it gave me relief from all of Dean/Benny/Cas/ random side character i found on screen
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 23:04
Quote:
Quote:
Who was out of the mental hospital.His problem was not his mental instability but the Same black and white view many other hunters have.
Um yes Martin being unbalanced was the point of the ice tray and the creepy way he told Dean he was long gone.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-07 08:49
Quote:
I agree with you on Dean's reasons for the phone trick, plus it was very smart of him. Isn't it sad that Dean knew Sam would betray him again and had already prepared for it.
I’ll be honest with you Ginger, this confuses me. How did Sam betray Dean here? By listening to both Martin and Dean and thinking that Martin had the better argument here? He also had a compelling argument in that Dean is too close to this. Sam is well familiar with how that goes and Dean has never been shy about reminding him about it, and oft times acting on it.

So did he betray him by wanting to kill a monster that Dean doesn’t want him to kill; a vampire that Dean kept very close to his vest and Sam probably wouldn’t have found out about had Dean’s hand not been forced? Dean is also going to great lengths to keep Sam away from Benny even now; why? Surely if Benny is who Dean says he is then he wouldn’t have a problem with integrating him into, or introducing him to, the family. Dean has told Sam very little about Benny, why? Once again, if Benny is on the up and up because of Purgatory why has Dean said next to nothing about that time with Benny in Purgatory? Why didn’t Dean bring Sam with him when he went to investigate Benny? Surely having Sam see with his own two eyes that Benny is not who he believes he is would be a surefire way to get Sam to ease off so why hasn’t he done it? Dean didn’t believe Sam about Lenore until he saw it for himself so why doesn’t he apply that logic with Sam and Benny? Is it because he himself has doubts about Benny? If so, why is it a ‘betrayal’ of Dean if Sam has those same doubts? All Sam knew about the situation when Dean came back was that Benny said that it was another vampire. Dean didn’t even see this other vampire. All Sam and Martin had to go on was Dean’s word and all he had to go on was Benny’s word. And both Benny and Dean had a vested interest in keeping Benny away from Sam.

In relation to being prepared for Sam to betray him, that’s on Dean. Does Dean even want to trust Sam anymore or is he setting him up to fall in order to give him a reason to not trust him? He’s tells Sam next to nothing about Benny and then doesn’t trust Sam because Sam doesn’t trust him about Benny because he doesn’t know anything about him! Where is this mistrust even coming from? Is it still the Ruby thing? If that’s the case then after 200 years of penance, 30 years of a relationship and countless incidents of loyalty, trust and saving Dean’s life, Dean won’t ever trust him because it seems that Dean’s policy is ‘one strike and you’re out’.

Dean trusts Benny because, per Dean, he’s never let him down. Is that the sole criteria that dictates who should be trusted for Dean? Whoa, that seems very conditional and will be hard to maintain given that Dean’s moral standards fluctuate a lot. So if Benny does something Dean doesn’t like then is that trust gone? Will Benny be meted with the same fate as other monsters because he didn’t follow Dean’s high moral code? He’d still be the same Benny, the only difference is that Dean doesn’t trust him anymore. Is that going to become a hanging offense on the show?

Should Sam trust Dean? He’s given Sam no reason to trust him and has actually given him plenty of reasons to not trust him. He said he’s not the same person, he’s keeping secrets, trusting monsters, being deliberately evasive and he said it himself that he lies for a living. So would Sam be a fool to trust him now? He’s already kept truths from Sam to protect Benny so is Sam just meant to assume that he’s not doing it again to protect Benny again? Dean doesn’t trust Sam but he himself expects to be trusted wholesale despite doing nothing to earn that trust? Sorry Ginger but the world doesn’t work like that.

To be honest, if the only way for Sam to earn Deans trust is to just believe everything he says, to put aside his own questions and doubts and just follow Dean and his directives on everything then that’s not a trust that I want Sam to have. Dean might prefer him that way but that’s not Sam, not anymore.

Quote:
It could even be argued that Dean gave Sam a choice and Sam made another wrong choice
You’ll have to help me out here, Ginger, what choice did Dean give him? Should he have gone to help the woman he loved or should he have continued with Martin to go after Benny? Or would the right choice have been to forget about Amelia (who he believed was in danger), forget about Benny (who he believed was killing people) and go back to Dean? Strange, I don’t recall that being an option.

And how is what he did the wrong choice? Martin was the one who choose to continue after Benny on his own.

Quote:
Which brings me to my second point. This was the mid-season finale and the cliffhanger scene was Sam and Amelia reuniting. This tells me Carver is fully invested in Sam's love story, which has been given an inordinate amount of screen time that cuts into every action scene we've seen.
I hope so, it’d be nice to get some acknowledgement that Carver is invested in Sam as a character. To write Sam as he did in the situation he did and then just leave him hanging without explanation would be foolish. You might find it as boring as watching paint dry but plus side, you're already familiar with the fast forward button!

Quote:
I also find it quite bizarre that Carver would make one of the leads look so bad so purposefully, while making a support character so very appealing and so fully developed.
Sam only looks bad if you want him to look bad, and some posters do. That has been the way for years (since season 4 for most of those who dislike Sam), and it will continue to be the way. Many posters choose to interpret Sam’s actions in the worst possible way, possibly to validate their theory that Sam is some sort of asshat that will never be redeemed etc. Sam is only irredeemable if you want him to be irredeemable and considering that many posters are still holding things like Sam going to college as evidence that Sam betrayed Dean, or are completely dismissive of every act of redemption he performs, he’ll never be redeemable for some; their loss.

Sam hasn’t been shown to be continuously dancing jigs with happiness since Dean came back and some interpret that as him being disappointed that Dean is alive because it took him away from Amelia (despite the fact that he had left Amelia independently of Dean). Dean is handcuffed to a radiator and their reading of the situation is that Sam left a concussed Dean handcuffed to a radiator for days in a vampire infested town. Reality, no vampire on earth would come near Dean Winchester, a punch in the head (especially from Martin!) doesn’t automatically give you a concussion (if so, how many times has Dean concussed Sam?), Dean had one hand left free and he's been able to pick locks longer than he’s been picking his nose.

Oh, and supporting characters are usually fully developed on SPN. It’s one of its strengths. It's also good business.
st50
# st50 2012-12-07 08:59
Well worded rebuttal, Tim.
I agree with you. Sam is only being "thrown under the bus" if the viewer wants to see it that way.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-07 10:54
Yes, Tim the Enchanter - great response.
trinaaron
# trinaaron 2012-12-07 14:26
This is a great comment. You rock.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-07 14:43
Tim I think I love you! Ripped that post to shreds.
st50
# st50 2012-12-07 14:57
Good honest and articulate debate is really enjoyable.
Edited, because I'm not trying to be an admin here, but tone it down, bigenough.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2012-12-07 18:20
That's a great post, Tim. I'm so glad you're commenting again!

I'd like to add though that I don't think that Sam's story, in the present and in the past, is being told very well. If someone doesn't really like Sam, it's easy to interpret his actions in the worse possible way when we're being told what he went through instead of being shown, and when he gets so little dialogue to explain himself.
Kelly W
# Kelly W 2012-12-07 19:15
Once again I agree 100% with everything you said Tim. It's all a matter of perspective, like the theme of this season and the only way to see the truth is to stay objective and not always take the side of your favorite character.
I've seen so many comments on this site and others that range from ridiculous to downright hateful.
Anyway thanks for the review Alice, I don't comment often but I alwyays read them and the others on this site. I'm glad that you enjoyed the episode because it made no impact on me like most of season 8 so far.
Not that I don't find it good but I haven't been able to connect and really enjoy it like the other seasons. I used to watch an episode at least four or five times after it aired and so far the only episodes I felt compelled to re watch are 8.06 because of garth mostly and 8.08 cause it was funny, and I like those episodes.
Maybe it's because what drew me to that show was the relationship between the brothers and it seems inexistent. I don't care about Benny, I tried but why should I? He's not the reason I watch the show and I don't understand what is his purpose? Wasting 2 episodes on him is a lot in my opinion and it's great that a lot of fans like him and managed to relate to him, I wish I could have.
Anyway there's so much to say about this season and I needed to rant a little. I found out that my opinion differ greatly from the majority of the posters. So it's reassuring when I see that I'm not alone in my thoughts.
To make it short I don't understand Sam's motivations because they haven't shown us anything so far. Of course with the knowledge of seven seasons, it's pretty easy to solve the mystery in my head but I shouldn't have to do it on my own. And I understand Dean even less because although we've been shown almost everything on his part, I don't recognize him and in my opinion he's the one who's been acting OOC from the jump. And I don't know why : is it character assassination from the writers or is there a purpose? I hope it's the latter because Dean looks very bad, I've always been able to relate to him whether he was right or wrong is not the point, I could always understand where he was coming from.
I'm not starting a fight, I'm not bashing the character because like I l said I love Dean, whether you want to believe it or not, that's why it pains me to see him act like this.
I just wanted to state my opinion, I know that I'm in the minority here, I could further explain why I feel this way but I just remembered that maybe it wasn't the right place for this comment. Sorry I forgot, so feel free to move it, if that's the case. Thanks again for all the hard work and dedication that you and your team mates put in this awesome website!
nappi815
# nappi815 2012-12-08 23:12
couldn't agree more with your post. very eloquently put.
E
# E 2012-12-09 00:19
I was planning a long articulate reply to Ginger's post, but you have so wonderfully said all that I ever could have come up with and more. Bravo!
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 23:32
Quote:
Quote:
I’ll be honest with you Ginger, this confuses me. How did Sam betray Dean here? By listening to both Martin and Dean and thinking that Martin had the better argument here? He also had a compelling argument in that Dean is too close to this. Sam is well familiar with how that goes and Dean has never been shy about reminding him about it, and oft times acting on it.

So did he betray him by wanting to kill a monster that Dean doesn’t want him to kill; a vampire that Dean kept very close to his vest and Sam probably wouldn’t have found out about had Dean’s hand not been forced? Dean is also going to great lengths to keep Sam away from Benny even now; why? Surely if Benny is who Dean says he is then he wouldn’t have a problem with integrating him into, or introducing him to, the family. Dean has told Sam very little about Benny, why? Once again, if Benny is on the up and up because of Purgatory why has Dean said next to nothing about that time with Benny in Purgatory? Why didn’t Dean bring Sam with him when he went to investigate Benny? Surely having Sam see with his own two eyes that Benny is not who he believes he is would be a surefire way to get Sam to ease off so why hasn’t he done it? Dean didn’t believe Sam about Lenore until he saw it for himself so why doesn’t he apply that logic with Sam and Benny? Is it because he himself has doubts about Benny? If so, why is it a ‘betrayal’ of Dean if Sam has those same doubts? All Sam knew about the situation when Dean came back was that Benny said that it was another vampire. Dean didn’t even see this other vampire. All Sam and Martin had to go on was Dean’s word and all he had to go on was Benny’s word. And both Benny and Dean had a vested interest in keeping Benny away from Sam.

In relation to being prepared for Sam to betray him, that’s on Dean. Does Dean even want to trust Sam anymore or is he setting him up to fall in order to give him a reason to not trust him? He’s tells Sam next to nothing about Benny and then doesn’t trust Sam because Sam doesn’t trust him about Benny because he doesn’t know anything about him! Where is this mistrust even coming from? Is it still the Ruby thing? If that’s the case then after 200 years of penance, 30 years of a relationship and countless incidents of loyalty, trust and saving Dean’s life, Dean won’t ever trust him because it seems that Dean’s policy is ‘one strike and you’re out’.
Dean didn't set up Sam to fail and considering Sam's reaction to Benny after nothing more then a handshake why would Dean believe it would be safe to tell Sam? As far as Dean knew there was no reason to tell Sam because he and Benny were going their own ways. Dean's moral standards have never changed nor is Dean's moral code too high for anyone to live by. Dean said if Benny proved bad he'd deal with him.

Quote:
Should Sam trust Dean? He’s given Sam no reason to trust him and has actually given him plenty of reasons to not trust him. He said he’s not the same person, he’s keeping secrets, trusting monsters, being deliberately evasive and he said it himself that he lies for a living. So would Sam be a fool to trust him now? He’s already kept truths from Sam to protect Benny so is Sam just meant to assume that he’s not doing it again to protect Benny again? Dean doesn’t trust Sam but he himself expects to be trusted wholesale despite doing nothing to earn that trust? Sorry Ginger but the world doesn’t work like that.
Dean doesn't trust Sam because Sam has proven himself not trust worthy. Keeping secrets is one thing but siding with a demon of all things! To listen and trust a demon! rather then his own brother?! Sam has kept a lot of his own secrets like his checking into Ruby's statement that Mary's family and friends were killed. Did I miss Sam telling Dean about that?

Quote:
if the only way for Sam to earn Deans trust is to just believe everything he says, to put aside his own questions and doubts and just follow Dean and his directives on everything then that’s not a trust that I want Sam to have. Dean might prefer him that way but that’s not Sam, not anymore.
Sam was never like that and Dean trusted him it was Sam's actions that caused Dean to lose faith in Sam. Sam actions lost Dean's trust so it is up to Sam to earn it back.

Quote:
It could even be argued that Dean gave Sam a choice and Sam made another wrong choice
You’ll have to help me out here, Ginger, what choice did Dean give him? Should he have gone to help the woman he loved or should he have continued with Martin to go after Benny? Or would the right choice have been to forget about Amelia (who he believed was in danger), forget about Benny (who he believed was killing people) and go back to Dean? Strange, I don’t recall that being an option.
Sam could of called Amelia so at the very least he had an idea what was instead of blindly heading into a trip from Louisiana to Texas.

Quote:
it’d be nice to get some acknowledgement that Carver is invested in Sam as a character. To write Sam as he did in the situation he did and then just leave him hanging without explanation would be foolish. You might find it as boring as watching paint dry but plus side, you're already familiar with the fast forward button!
How is Sam being trashed by an abusive woman invested in Sam's character. The Sam I remember wouldn't of put up with any of the crap Amelia pulled and I believe Sam saying there was and now there isn't says it clearly. He and Amelia are over. It was said to watch Sam creeping around peeking in windows like a stalker.

[uote] Sam only looks bad if you want him to look bad, and some posters do. That has been the way for years (since season 4 for most of those who dislike Sam), and it will continue to be the way. Many posters choose to interpret Sam’s actions in the worst possible way, possibly to validate their theory that Sam is some sort of asshat that will never be redeemed etc.

Excuse me? Describing posters as Sam bashers is apparently ok. Regardless of whether it's true or not.

despite the fact that he had left Amelia independently of Dean).

No he didn't Amelia chose Don so Sam had no choice but to leave.

Quote:
Dean is handcuffed to a radiator and their reading of the situation is that Sam left a concussed Dean handcuffed to a radiator for days in a vampire infested town. Reality, no vampire on earth would come near Dean Winchester, a punch in the head (especially from Martin!) doesn’t automatically give you a concussion.
No not days but a minute could of been too long. Martin didn't punch Dean or did you fail to see the item Martin picked up? He bludegeoned Dean violently throwing all his strength behind it and despite this violent behavior Sam thought nothing of leaving Dean unconscious hoping that Dean could revive and free himself before a killer vamp arrived. Just because Dean has abilities and always seems to rescue himself doesn't mean he can't be killed. Even the best make mistakes.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-12 23:48
Quote:

Sam could of called Amelia so at the very least he had an idea what was instead of blindly heading into a trip from Louisiana to Texas.
Sam did try to call Amelia but since he would have reached Dean, no one answered, scaring Sam even more.

Transcript:

INT – MARTIN’S VEHICLE – NIGHT

SAM is driving. He makes a call to AMELIA on his cell phone.

AUTOMATED FEMALE VOICE
The person you are trying to reach is unavailable.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-13 00:24
After he already abandoned Martin to walk back to town and was driving to Texas. He should of called when he got the text before he got into the car but he headed to Texas before he even thought to call and get an idea on what he might be facing.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-13 02:23
Quote:
After he already abandoned Martin to walk back to town and was driving to Texas. He should of called when he got the text before he got into the car but he headed to Texas before he even thought to call and get an idea on what he might be facing.
He wouldnt of got Amelia and besides believe it or not Sam is human and frankly there is alot of things both brothers could do , should of done . In a ideal world Sam shouldnt of panicked and Dean shouldnt of sent the text message that caused Sam to panic but they both did it was a domino effect of actions .
E
# E 2012-12-13 07:22
It wouldn't have mattered if Sam had taken an extra 5 minutes to try and call Amelia before jumping into the car, he would never have been able to reach her because of the burner phone. So he jumped in the car and spent the whole drive (12-14 hours by googlemaps btw) trying but unable to reach her and being tormented by his fear. The scenario would have remained the same if he had tried to call prior to taking off or after he did take off; no answer and continuing panic. Dean needs to answer for that in some way IMO.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-13 08:06
Quote:
It wouldn't have mattered if Sam had taken an extra 5 minutes to try and call Amelia before jumping into the car, he would never have been able to reach her because of the burner phone. So he jumped in the car and spent the whole drive (12-14 hours by googlemaps btw) trying but unable to reach her and being tormented by his fear. The scenario would have remained the same if he had tried to call prior to taking off or after he did take off; no answer and continuing panic. Dean needs to answer for that in some way IMO.
Why is everyone concerned Dean pays for a fake text when Sam's actions were worse? Martin violently attacked Dean and Sam's reaction proved he had concerns about Martin's sanity by his to the attack and yet left Dean defenseless in a town where a murderous vamp was loose. Thankfully Dean woke up before Desmond dropped in. Then Sam tookoff leaving Martin abandoned mid job despite Sam's concern about Martin's mental state. That unsupervised unbalanced man abandoned by sam hurt two more people Benny and Elizabeth as well as trashing Dean's trust in Sam further. By far Sam did more damage during the ep yet everyone is calling Dean on a text which was the only way he had to distract Sam since Sam was deaf to Dean in which Dean hoped to avoid bloodshe and death. Why didn't he call Dean and tell him he washeadedout to help Amelia? Rushing off into danger not knowing what to expect is not sane thinking.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2012-12-07 00:40
The one thing I am confused about isn't about the episode. I thought since they started late (Oct) the break was going to be short. Six weeks is not a short break CW!!

About the episode, so,so, SO glad they didn't kill Benny. He needs to stay for a long Time (say thru Season 10). I want to see an episode where Benny, Dean AND Cas are back together. That would be cool.

I loved the phone trick. Very clever. I like clever.

Loved the girl who played Elizabeth. Loved her in Kids are Alright. Thought she was great in that. Good to see her back.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-07 03:41
What I loved about that episode:

Everything ^^

Benny was just... cute and cuddly and while I had initially expected him to die in this episode, by the end, I was just yelling "NO!NO!NO!"

Elisabeth was a great character. And I sincerely hope, we will see her again.
Her acting was absolutely awesome.
The scenes between her and Benny were great.
But her and Dean were just beautiful.
I loved the scene in the end, when Dean found her on the steps ob the Gumbo shack and first of all covered that bleeding gash on her neck and she just seemed so lost and brittle, but strong at the same time.

That little bit, where Dean covered up that neck wound, and her holding on for just a second, with so much pain on her face.....
Wow, it choked me up.

SHe doesn´t come across as a doormat and I think, her and Dean would make a good fit. (sue me, but slowly Dean is turning into a monk!)

Well... aside from that little fact of her overprotective great grand daddy.

Which brings me to another scene, that had me laughing out loud.
"Wait a second... No, you didn´t!"
"Ugh... no.... no."

And Dean was so DEAN! His face! Oh my God!
AWKWARD!

Martin: Creepy much? Well played! absolutely stunning. You could basically see him unravel.

Scenes I loved:

The first scene with Elisabeth and Benny. Only gets better and better with rewatch. Benny´s loving exasperation at Elisabeth, how he looks at her with just so much affection.
When you know, what she is to him, you can see Grandpapa and his girl written all over his face.

Dean and Benny talking about Elisabeth. Yeah, well... awkward :D

Benny not taking Dean´s bossy crap in their conversations. A character who can do that has been long overdue.

The first meeting with Martin and how Sam and Dean were in perfect sync.
So connected with each other, that Martin was nothing more than an aimless bouncing ball between them.

Dean declaring his little brother dangerous.
Sam not taking any crap from Martin, when it comes to Dean.

The first half of the episode was pretty much perfect brotherly perfection.

The thing with the text message and Dean´s smugness, that he had outsmarted Sam.
Yes, it was a bitch move... but it only shows, how well they know each other.
And then his pain, when Sam cut off the phonecall, that moment, when he seemed to understand, what he had done.
Dean related alot better to Sam than in previous episodes.
There is so much underlying emotion there, especially from Dean, who just had that "protect Sammy vibe" again.

And the look of utter terror on Sam´s face, when he read that text. Sadly, and that is my one quib here, it was too short and only really visible on screen cap.
Sam´s sad smile, after he saw Amelia, the relief on his face.
But why did he look so utterly terrified, when she tracked him down at the bar?

There were so many moments, where one of them was reaching out... and it just wasn´t connecting with the other, it was beautifully painful to watch.

From Sam backing Dean. To Dean trying to convince Sam.
To that phonecall in the end.

All the time, I was channeling Garth: "You are talking with each other, but nobody´s listening." Finally look through the hurt and SEE WHAT IS RIGHT THERE YOU IDIOTS!

Dean´s conviction, that Benny is to be trusted, Sam´s hurt at the "never let me down" comment.

It felt, as if they were inching closer together... just to bounce right apart again :/

In the early Season 8 episodes, it felt, as if Dean didn´t quite get Sammy.
Now he´s slowly getting there... and Sam is pulling back.
CJ
# CJ 2012-12-07 10:14
Fluffy2107 - loved ur take on the episode. I felt the same way too. I really wish those 2 idiot (but lovable) brothers will just see past the hurt to know how much they mean to each other.
Jared & Jensen were awesome in this episode. They brought every scene to life. The sadness, anguish, frustration etc was palpable.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2012-12-07 04:22
Like your review, as always.

Did anybody notice at the beginning Dean's scar on the side of his forehead? Was a make up mistake? or it is a real scar and he really got hurt in the scene when Martin hit him.

I understand why Sam doesn't like Benny, after all, he knows better what happens when someone befriend a monster. But, why he doesn't trust Dean's judgement? Why he gets so mad? I thought it was because he was afraid to lose Dean again, that he didn't want to see Dean get hurt because of a monster.... But, at the first called from Amelia, he leaves Dean in the middle of a hunt?.

On the other hand, when Dean fixed that false message in the burner phone, he did it because he was expecting another Sam's betrayal? or he did it to save Sam from Benny or vice versa?

With all the Dean/Benny/Sam drama, I forgot about Cass, he was there with Dean and Benny, he could say something to calm down Sam, after all, he saw first hand the Dean/Benny relationship.

Carver likes to separate the guys, so he can tell what the guys do when they are not together (Free to be you and me....anyone?) but hopefully, it will be during the hiatus and the first scene of next episode it's when Dean finds Sam in the hotel.

So many questions, so many ways to read each episode that you have, you really have to wait anxiously for the next episode to see what happens or you will be thinking of it all the time, even at work!!! Yes, sometimes, I do that, don't judge me... hahaha

Hopefully, the holidays will make the six weeks hiatus, bearable. Like some people call it hellatus...
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-07 05:40
The mark on Dean's head is actually "rug burn" that Jensen got while wrestling with Jared and Misha. I haven't seen the videos, but I've heard they spoke about it at Chicago Con, I think?
I think Sam is afraid of losing not just Dean, but anyone at the moment, so when he thinks something may be threatening someone he cares about he goes kind of nuts.
I don't like to think Dean sent the text because he thought Sam would betray him, but maybe because he figured there might be a showdown between Sam and Benny eventually, so he decided the only way to take Sam out of that particular fight would be to make him think Amelia was in trouble?
Yes, questions indeed.
Alice
# Alice 2012-12-07 09:57
Yes, it was rug burn. It happened at their hotel during Toronto con (I was at that con!). Jared has always challenged Misha to wrestling matches, often times at 2 am! Somehow, all three got into it this time, and Jared and Misha came out of it with some hurt ribs and I thought I heard a popped shoulder, but Jensen got really bad rug burn on his forehead and chin. They told us the whole story a few weeks later in Chicago.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-07 13:41
Hi Alice - you know at this stage I think maybe we need an article devoted to this topic? It is easily getting enough interest :D

You know with pics and video and stuff ...

Just a thought.
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-07 23:58
It's just weird that there is a burn on Dean's temple when they are speaking in the car, then later it disappear. I don't see it anymore when Dean's in the motel room with Martin.

You'd think they'd cover it up. I think the car scene in the beginning was shot the last.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 23:52
Quote:
Yes, it was rug burn. It happened at their hotel during Toronto con (I was at that con!). Jared has always challenged Misha to wrestling matches, often times at 2 am! Somehow, all three got into it this time, and Jared and Misha came out of it with some hurt ribs and I thought I heard a popped shoulder, but Jensen got really bad rug burn on his forehead and chin. They told us the whole story a few weeks later in Chicago.
Cracked ribs for Jared. Cracked ribs and popped elbow for Misha. As he said in video on youtube "6-8 weeks I'm told my elbow will be ok." Jensen got rug burn on his forehead and chin. Misha mentioned the wrestling and a fan mentioned it during Jensen and Jared's panel and as Jensen said, "Misha or as we refer to him the victim."
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-12-07 10:43
Alice - what a great review! Of course, I say that because I agree with every word of it. :D

I too saw the episode just like that and was stressed out at the end and most of the night. I was so scared for Benny! How can they reconcile their differences after that one? What a long wait indeed until the hellatus is over! :sigh:

Dean really is not sugar coating it these days. I do like him much more this way than half drunk and depressed like last season. When he says everyone has let him down except Benny so far, he is just speaking the honest truth. Even Bobby let him down by not telling him for a year that Sam was back. I'm really hoping Benny does not do that to him too. Sam clearly resented that comment and who could blame him as no one hurts you like the ones you love the most. It seems Sam does love his brother or he wouldn't show his jealousy of Benny so plainly and we know Dean loves Sam, but do each of them really believe he is loved by the other? They can't seem to get that message across. Ohhh boys! :cry:

I keep thinking of their Christmas show and the last part of that episode just made my heart swell with joy and love as they are so in sync and so sure of each other's affection without any mushy words to be said. I wish I could see that connection again some time. :sigh:
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-07 23:55
Quote:
Sam clearly resented that comment and who could blame him as no one hurts you like the ones you love the most. It seems Sam does love his brother or he wouldn't show his jealousy of Benny so plainly and we know Dean loves Sam, but do each of them really believe he is loved by the other? They can't seem to get that message across. Ohhh boys! :cry:
I agree. That seems to be the theme of this season. It all spark from jealousy. Dean's jealous over Amelia, another girl in his little brother's life that Sam chooses over him. Sam's jealous over Benny, a Vamp that takes Dean's loyalty away from his little brother who still needs his love.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 23:54
Quote:
Quote:
Sam clearly resented that comment and who could blame him as no one hurts you like the ones you love the most. It seems Sam does love his brother or he wouldn't show his jealousy of Benny so plainly and we know Dean loves Sam, but do each of them really believe he is loved by the other? They can't seem to get that message across. Ohhh boys! :cry:
I agree. That seems to be the theme of this season. It all spark from jealousy. Dean's jealous over Amelia, another girl in his little brother's life that Sam chooses over him. Sam's jealous over Benny, a Vamp that takes Dean's loyalty away from his little brother who still needs his love.
Dean isn't jealous of Amelia. He's hurt that his brother ran off to Amelia instead of searching for Dean as Dean has everytime Sam disappeared. It hurts to be dismissed.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-14 13:19
Quote:
Dean's jealous over Amelia, another girl in his little brother's life that Sam chooses over him. Sam's jealous over Benny, a Vamp that takes Dean's loyalty away from his little brother who still needs his love.
See that's where we differ. I don't see Dean as jealous but hurt. I don't think Dean gives a damn about Amelia one way or the other she's just a symbol. Sam told Dean he'd found with her something he'd never had. Really not even with Jess the woman he was going to marry? She was a symbol of the reason Sam didn't look. Dean always looked for Sam. He gets back and finds Sam didn't look but hung up his guns and had this 'great romance' it hurt to know Sam didn't try to look for at least a little while.

In the case of Benny why would Sam ever believe that Dean wouldn't still have enough love/loyalty for Sam regardless of who he adds to his friend's circle? For 30 years Dean has basically done everything for Sam he could. Why would Sam believe that would change because of Benny? I can see Dean saying, "Sam, I still love you but right now I really don't like you." Even when they were arguing Dean's had baby bro's back so there isn't any need for Sam's jealousy.
E
# E 2012-12-09 00:48
Bevie,
How do you get through a whole LIFE with people that are close to you without one of them (all of them) letting you down at some point? I mean, how unrealistic is that? Of course Sam has let him down, as has John, Mary, Cas, Bobby, even Lisa and Ben... It's called life; that's what happens, people make mistakes, they do dumb things they hurt the ones they love. Hopefully they feel bad about it and try and make up for it as everyone who has hurt Dean has in fact done multiple times. But I guess a heartfelt apology isn't good enough, nor is throwing yourself into the Devil's pit for 180 years, no, Dean wants the perfect relationship with someone who will never get it wrong, who will never betray him or make any mistakes ever for the remainder of his life. It's beyond unrealistic. Benny just hasn't been around long enough yet; of course he will let Dean down because Dean has set an impossible standard that even and angel of the lord couldn't manage to maintain. And it's a standard that he doesn't seem to feel applies to himself either.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 01:41
Well in fairness E, that angel was a very naughty boy for a time. :-) :-)
E
# E 2012-12-09 20:23
Even GOD himself has disappointed Dean
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 22:59
I think they both were a little disappointed that God wasn't going to intervene!
E
# E 2012-12-13 07:24
True enough
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 03:07
More seriously though, I think before this season, Dean was harder on himself than anybody. He always felt he let everybody down and every death was on him. He raked himself over the coals more than anyone else. Dean is capable of forgiveness. Every fiber of Deans body IMO wants to be good with his brother no matter what hurtful things come out of his mouth. Every person you listed Dean would die for and as you said people hurt each other, that doesn't mean strong love isn't there.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-12 15:09
remember what LeviaDean said that Dean doesn't have relationships he has applications for sainthood? well that pretty much sums up Dean's approach to every relationship he's ever had, he expects perfection from everyone all the time. When people fail to live up that rather unrealistic expectation he takes it as a betrayal and personal slight on himself even when people were just trying to do the right thing, or were looking at the bigger picture, or trying to protect him.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-13 01:07
Yeah sorry, don't agree. He expects a lot of himself also. I took that Levi comment with a grain of salt. I don't see Dean expecting perfection from everybody. Just because he doesn't agree with someone does not IMO mean he expects perfection. Is he too hard on Sam sometimes? Absolutely. In E's comment she mentioned Lisa & Ben, on the contrary I feel that he thought he let THEM down. As for Bobby, how did he let Dean down? Cas, he betrayed them and brought down Sam's wall. He adored his dad, but came to realize how much much he was affected by all the responsibility that was dumped on his young shoulders. Good for Dean. Not sure where he felt let down by Mary. Maybe the deal that she made to save John and brought the YED to their door years later? Can't be too hard on him for that. Dean has always, to my way of thinking, been accepting of the misfits like Ronald, Garth, that hunter in Sin City to name a few. I guess I just see him differently. Not perfect by any means, but so much better than you do. He has been shown to be an outstanding brother, son, and friend many times on this show.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-13 02:23
Quote:
remember what LeviaDean said that Dean doesn't have relationships he has applications for sainthood? well that pretty much sums up Dean's approach to every relationship he's ever had, he expects perfection from everyone all the time. When people fail to live up that rather unrealistic expectation he takes it as a betrayal and personal slight on himself even when people were just trying to do the right thing, or were looking at the bigger picture, or trying to protect him.
I think you misunderstood that comment.

It´s a sarcastic remark, that Dean is so horrible in his relationships, that everyone, who puts up with him, should be declared a saint right on the spot
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-12-07 12:49
:cry: :cry: :cry: This episode made me cry. Cry for the Winchesters of old, cry for Benny, cry for Elizabeth, cry for Sam & Amelia, basically I'm still crying like a baby. Daniel Loflin you had me from the very beginning to the bitter end. I like Dabb & Loflin together (I know a lot of you don't), but boy, oh, boy, I prefer them apart.

Thank Chuck Benny is still alive, I think I would have thrown something at my beautiful television otherwise. As happy as I was to see Martin, he so deserved what he got, sorry Sam. He reminded me of the hunter from "Metamorphisis" , the guy just wouldn't leave it alone. When a Winchester tells you to go far away, you bloody well listen to them! Otherwise, you get dead!

Now, when Dean told Sam that he trusted Benny like he hadn't trusted anyone in years. OMG, the look on Sam's face. I can't take this anymore! These guys need to make up already. I understand we will never get the Winchesters of the early years, and that's fine with me, but man alive, they need to clear the air, otherwise they're done for. I'm sure if Bobby was still alive :cry: (here I go again!) he would tell them that they need to talk to each other. As Cass says in the preview for the next episode (egads, January 16!) stow your crap.

Thank you Alice for the great review, I so agree on the grade. An A all the way.

Happy Hellatus everyone! :sigh:
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-12-07 13:40
Quote:
When a Winchester tells you to go far away, you bloody well listen to them! Otherwise, you get dead!
Nice. When a Winchester tells you anything, you bloody well listen to him. I'm with you there, Sylvie.
Amy
# Amy 2012-12-07 14:28
Thanks for the review, Alice
MisterGlass
# MisterGlass 2012-12-07 21:21
Thanks for the review Alice!

The suspense over Benny's fate kept me enthralled, and I was very impressed by the whole execution of that plot line. The idea that Benny has descendants and wants to be near them, and in his home town, added poignancy to the whole affair. The dynamic between Benny and Dean is fascinating; Ty Olsson and Jensen play off each other very well. I can't praise their work in this episode enough.

And let me say, Jon Gries did a chilling turn as Martin. I never saw Martin as a threatening character before, and yet this episode pairs nicely with the other appearance of the institutionaliz ed hunter. That frenetic, unbalanced quality is still there, but the recognition that something is wrong with him is not. It is as though he is more disturbed than ever, to the point where he no longer sees it, whatever his jokes about electroshock. He was a real danger, I could believe that Benny's life hung in the balance.

I too believe Benny killed Martin. I thought Elizabeth was restrained, but even if she was not, she was shocked by what was going on, and would not have been able to act that quickly. Benny was scared for her, and I think would have given his life for her, but once Martin moved away from her, he would have been able to attack. He is faster and stronger than the hunter; he just needed the opportunity.

I like it when Supernatural has ensemble episodes, especially those that reveal more about the hunting community. They are a fascinating and diverse group. Somehow, I don't think Garth would have been so quick to judge Benny, but Martin is surely the better representative of hunter philosophy.

I would like Benny to survive indefinitely. I expect him to live at least until the next appearance of the alpha vamp. And I would love to see an on camera reveal from Dean to Benny that Dean was once turned, but cured. There is even more common ground between then than Benny knows.

I am not shocked that Dean took that precaution with Sam's phone. Dean has given up relying on anyone other than himself, and possibly Benny. He recognized in this episode though how difficult it is for Benny to be in the world again. Dean has come to expect disappointment and betrayal from everyone. It's an incredibly lonely outlook for someone who likes to be loved.

Where Sam and Amelia are headed, I don't know. If this is a straight up love interest plot with no supernatural, if the things we are seeing are what they are, then I think Sam is about to leave the hunting life again. I don't know how Amelia is compatible with it if Lisa wasn't.

So much to see in six weeks' time!
rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2012-12-07 22:40
Hey Alice! I loved your review. This episode was one of the best episodes so far this season and this season, unlike the past two seasons, has had several episodes that I have adored! So I want to thank Mr. Carver. His direction and inspiration has lit a much needed fire under the writing staff and they are doing a wonderful job. Of course, the cast, crew, director, etc. did an amazing job as well. I was totally on the edge of my seat during the whole hour and re-watched immediately after it aired!

Now concerning Benny's killing of Martin...I had another thought about this. What if Benny didn't kill Martin...what if it was actually the Alpha Vamp or one of his minions? I can see him getting very interested in Benny and having him followed especially if he found out that Benny escaped Purgatory. He would want to know all about that, I'm sure. I can see another vamp killing Martin and whisking Benny away to see the boss. Also, the Alpha Vamp would be interested in fact that the one child that got away (Dean) was the one that facilitated Benny's escape. This would definitely spark his interest. Don't forget the Alpha Vamp told both Sam and Dean that they hadn't seen the last of him. So, the above scenario could mark a way for his return. Just a thought....and add Crowley, who's lurking in the shadows, to the mix and that would make just a delicious cornucopia for all of us to follow! Sam and Dean would definitely have their hands full having to deal with both of them! :-)

Not forgetting Liz... we have no way of knowing right now what she saw and remembers. If the Alpha Vamp did kill Martin, he could have the power to amend what she remembered and left her alive having achieved the saving of Benny, his child.

But really...who knows?? I love all the speculating! Such fun! My mind is just buzzing! 6 weeks....to go! Let Hellatus begin! :-)
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-07 23:47
Quote:
Not forgetting Liz... we have no way of knowing right now what she saw and remembers. If the Alpha Vamp did kill Martin, he could have the power to amend what she remembered and left her alive having achieved the saving of Benny, his child.
Don't forget last season with the seemingly innocent girl who called the Alpha Vamp daddy. Benny could be just a pawn or tied deeper in the manipulation.

Benny still has two things to answer.
1. When he told Dean not to trust anyone, even him.
2. THEY who told him about the portal.
rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2012-12-08 00:46
I agree. I would think that with all the monsters that were in Purgatory, Benny could have obtained that information and waited for the chance that a human would appear eventually and he would obtain his release and/or he received the intel that Dean was in Purgatory and made the move to get close to him in order to break out.

Speculation is such fun!
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-12 14:48
Speculation is fun, totally agree!

I want to add, I wonder if Benny is continuing to play Dean as part of some deal he made with the angels? Maybe they gave him the info he needed to get out, he finds Dean and gets out on the prevision that he keeps Dean on side once out until the angels get what they want out of the situation?
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-12 14:54
should add I dont think that Benny is necessarily a bad guy, he's just trying to survive even if that means doing the angels bidding and manipulating Dean. Even if he is found to be playing Dean I would still wager he's actually a decent guy, I dont think they would have shown his back story in as much detail as they have unless they wanted the audience to believe him to be a good monster both to play the audience and to set him up as not evil but just trying to survive.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-07 22:53
I found Dean's sending that text to Sam horrible. He knew how Sam felt about her. That was a very low blow but on a par with all the other ones he's delivered to Sam this season. Not liking Dean at all this season.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 01:21
Well really Dean doesn't know how Sam feels about Amelia, he hasn't asked, and even her name Sam had to force on him.

He may think that Sam was not serious about her and he just left her after having a fling, therefore she is fair game for him to use to fool Sam.

However if Sam's previous history with monsters means that he should have more sympathy for Benny's issues then for sure we can apply Dean's history with Lisa and Ben to this scenario. Dean knows how the innocents can be used against hunters, he has first hand experience. He did the freaked out drive to Lisa more than once! He knows better. Also, and this seems to have been overlooked, Sam said something like 'So you knew she was ok then?' and Dean responds with ' I don't know anything about her situation' (I don't know the exact conversation, I may be wrong about this).

Not only does Dean not know how Sam felt about her, he refuses even to acknowledge her existence as a real person. I think this fits with soldier-Dean and I think he will come to realize how wrong it was and maybe we will get some communication between the two guys.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-08 21:52
Quote:
Well really Dean doesn't know how Sam feels about Amelia, he hasn't asked, and even her name Sam had to force on him.

He may think that Sam was not serious about her and he just left her after having a fling, therefore she is fair game for him to use to fool Sam.

However if Sam's previous history with monsters means that he should have more sympathy for Benny's issues then for sure we can apply Dean's history with Lisa and Ben to this scenario. Dean knows how the innocents can be used against hunters, he has first hand experience. He did the freaked out drive to Lisa more than once! He knows better. Also, and this seems to have been overlooked, Sam said something like 'So you knew she was ok then?' and Dean responds with ' I don't know anything about her situation' (I don't know the exact conversation, I may be wrong about this).

Not only does Dean not know how Sam felt about her, he refuses even to acknowledge her existence as a real person. I think this fits with soldier-Dean and I think he will come to realize how wrong it was and maybe we will get some communication between the two guys.
I don't think it matters if Dean knows how Sam feels about her. He knew Sam had feelings for her in the past which makes what he did horribly cruel. He made Sam feel fear for someone he knew. I'm sorry, but for me there is no excuse for what he did. I found it appalling.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 13:36
jo1027 Sam didn't force Amelia's name on Dean. He also claimed he told Dean why he didn't search for him. Not to my knowledge. He said he found something but his description was vague. Sam before Dean said anything about trusting Benny etc laid the first slam with how he found something he'd never had before meaning something that he'd wanted more then anything and Dean had failed in giving him.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-12 15:04
Quote:
jo1027 Sam didn't force Amelia's name on Dean. He also claimed he told Dean why he didn't search for him. Not to my knowledge. He said he found something but his description was vague. Sam before Dean said anything about trusting Benny etc laid the first slam with how he found something he'd never had before meaning something that he'd wanted more then anything and Dean had failed in giving him.
Sam after everything he has been through found something that to us might seem boring with being a handyman and a dog but to Sam that was heaven then to top it Amelia happened as well . (Edited, disrespectful to another poster).
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 18:41
(Edited by Alice. I've edited the offending comment, so I'm removing the heated response as well).
E
# E 2012-12-10 07:33
Cruelty through ignorance is on par with malicious cruelty IMO. Dean is ignorant because all he's been about the Amelia situation is derogatory, repeatedly calling her "the girl" as though she isn't an adult and isn't real enough to have a name; or making snide comments like "did you slip your chocolate into her peanut butter?" using crude sexual metaphors to debase the relationship.

I really liked Dean when he first came out of purgatory. He seemed rejuvenated and full of life, smart, cunning and an uber hunter which has been exciting to watch... lately though, he's just been mean and has been turning that mean on Sam.
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-07 23:42
Overall, I am still not sold on the idea that Benny is all innocent. There is this "THEY' that Benny said had told him about the window. Why this 'THEY' choose Benny of all monster to get close to Dean? There must be a reason out of thousands and billions of monsters in Purg that Benny is chosen. He could've been making deal with this "THEY" whoever they are.

When it's time all the secrets are revealed and Benny did do shady deals that cost lives or Sammy's life, Dean will kill him. He probably won't shed a tear over Benny because this Vamp has deceived him, it'll just put another pile on Dean's tower of guilty.

The writer insist to tell us to see what's there. That everything that they reveal are just that, no twist, no turn. BUt they also tease us about Dean's memory. The one tool that they use to tell their story. We used to get things from Dean's perspective BUT now, even we can't seem to trust Dean's POV anymore.

Employing what Sherlock always says : When you have eliminated the Impossible, whatever remains, however improbably, must be the truth.

Ever since episode one Benny already said, "you can't trust anyone" Benny never ask Dean to trust him. It'll be stupid for Dean to trust Benny when he already heard the warning. But then we can't trust Dean's perspective anymore, can't trust Castiel anymore, Can't even trust Sam because Sam looks odd. What if none of the major character's POV is the truth? So, what's the truth?

Angels and Demons? They hold all the strings. We only see the pawn on the board, not yet the king and queens.

Dean definitely needs help. He reminds me of SoullessSam. I wonder if taking a Vamp's soul in his body did some damage on his soul somehow. It definitely did damage on his memory. We never before have Dean mistake a memory. I have an impression that Dean spent in Purg much longer than a year earth time. If a month = 10 years in hell, how much 1 month = time in Purgatory? A lot longer than hell?

For all we know Dean didn't spent in Purgatory a year, guys. He could have spent time there 120 years.

Compare 120 years of instant battle and loyal comrade with 30 years of up and down trust issue.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-12 14:41
If Benny is somehow playing Dean (which would be awesome but I doubt it would happen because this is Dean we're talking about) then I will be in absolute awe of Carver and the writing team because from what I've seen the majority of fans (online anyway) have Benny down as a saint and Dean's oh so trust worthy new brother. They would have truly played the audience (Dean fans mostly) IMO it would be regarded as sheer genius.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-08 00:03
(Edited by Alice - I've had a few complaints that your posts are really spreading Sam hate. You are making some good points, and lord knows I don't think Sam's been reacting the best to Dean and Benny this season, but yeah, some of your comments are attacking his character unnecessarily. I request you leave out the attack comments and keep making constructive points. I'm editing of few of your lines here to take out the belittling, but I'll leave the points you're trying to make. Thank you. )

Dean did what he needed for a brother acting like (edited). Sam is overreacting to Benny. Lenore kidnapped him, he was in her presence 10 minutes while she claimed she was good and then sent him back and yet Sam didn't stalk her but Benny his reaction is over the top for no reason. Dean told him why Benny was important to him. Got him out and watched over him there. Sam driving off with even a goodbye leaving obviously unstable Martin to deal with a nest of vamp's so he could run back to the ex is familiar. Leaving Cas & Dean in purgatory and 18 year Kevin swinging in the breeze anyone? (Edited)
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-12-10 10:12
I agree with you.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-08 02:36
No he doesnt if we apply that then Dean with his rants and better brother comments nah nah nah should do the same .

Dean did what he did because he wanted to protect Benny , he was prepared to take a calculated risk with Sam to do that, and isnt surprising considering where he is at in regards to how he sees Benny and how he sees Sam .I want to see Sam have a scene where he gets to say how he feels towards his brother .Dean has had his say both us and Sam have got the message now I would like Sam to voice how he feels .
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 12:07
Rants? Dean didn't rant, he just said what he felt. Dean has searched for Sam every time he disappeared. When Sam got Megged, Cold Oak, look for a way top save him from Lucifer's toyback. Sam was a brat in season 1 but when he realized what John and Dean protected him from and what they really dealt with he began to mature but he still acts childish. When he told young John he forgave his dad for what hunting did to him I wanted to smack him. What John did was protect Sam so he could grown into an adult. The difference between good and evil and how to make his own choices. As well as the ability to back up those decisions with fighting skills and knowledge of how to deal with enemies. John keep Sam from becoming Lucifers condom, gave him memories of a brother who loved him giving Sam the ability to fight back. Sam forgave John for keeping Sam going darkside, becoming the prince of hell and Dean continued that. That is what Sam forgave his dad for. Most would be grateful for that not forgiving him as if he put Sam through some horrible trauma.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-12 12:22
Quote:
Rants? Dean didn't rant, he just said what he felt. Dean has searched for Sam every time he disappeared. When Sam got Megged, Cold Oak, look for a way top save him from Lucifer's toyback. Sam was a brat in season 1 but when he realized what John and Dean protected him from and what they really dealt with he began to mature but he still acts childish. When he told young John he forgave his dad for what hunting did to him I wanted to smack him. What John did was protect Sam so he could grown into an adult. The difference between good and evil and how to make his own choices. As well as the ability to back up those decisions with fighting skills and knowledge of how to deal with enemies. John keep Sam from becoming Lucifers condom, gave him memories of a brother who loved him giving Sam the ability to fight back. Sam forgave John for keeping Sam going darkside, becoming the prince of hell and Dean continued that. That is what Sam forgave his dad for. Most would be grateful for that not forgiving him as if he put Sam through some horrible trauma.
You can call it what you wish I called it a rant either way the words remain the same . I am not sure what John or Sam;s conversation with Young John has to do with this but anyway as for what he said to young John that is Sam's business and what he felt he wanted to say , I dont view Sam's issues with John or his childhood any less valid that Dean's but if you want to view Sam it seems not having a right to feel anything but gratitude to both John and Dean and decree him a brat then there isnt anything either one of us have in common .
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 13:21
Quote:

You can call it what you wish I called it a rant either way the words remain the same . I am not sure what John or Sam;s conversation with Young John has to do with this but anyway as for what he said to young John that is Sam's business and what he felt he wanted to say , I dont view Sam's issues with John or his childhood any less valid that Dean's but if you want to view Sam it seems not having a right to feel anything but gratitude to both John and Dean and decree him a brat then there isnt anything either one of us have in common .
What I was saying is Sam has continously ranted/been mean to John/Sam. I never said Sam could only feel gratitude but he didn't show anything but anger and feeling put upon by his dad. As Dean said it goes 2 ways, Sam could of called and he didn't. John/Dean have alway been there for Sam. What I'm saying is Sam has jumped to conclusions and attacked instead of communicating like he is doing now with Dean/Benny. He had anger with Lucifer and look how well that resulted. Once again Sam jumps to conclusions and rants angrily about those conclusions totally forgetting what such behavior lead to before. Obviously Sam has learned nothing from the past.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 18:48
Quote:
Quote:
Rants? Dean didn't rant, he just said what he felt. Dean has searched for Sam every time he disappeared. When Sam got Megged, Cold Oak, look for a way top save him from Lucifer's toyback. Sam was a brat in season 1 but when he realized what John and Dean protected him from and what they really dealt with he began to mature but he still acts childish. When he told young John he forgave his dad for what hunting did to him I wanted to smack him. What John did was protect Sam so he could grown into an adult. The difference between good and evil and how to make his own choices. As well as the ability to back up those decisions with fighting skills and knowledge of how to deal with enemies. John keep Sam from becoming Lucifers condom, gave him memories of a brother who loved him giving Sam the ability to fight back. Sam forgave John for keeping Sam going darkside, becoming the prince of hell and Dean continued that. That is what Sam forgave his dad for. Most would be grateful for that not forgiving him as if he put Sam through some horrible trauma.
You can call it what you wish I called it a rant either way the words remain the same . I am not sure what John or Sam;s conversation with Young John has to do with this but anyway as for what he said to young John that is Sam's business and what he felt he wanted to say , I dont view Sam's issues with John or his childhood any less valid that Dean's but if you want to view Sam it seems not having a right to feel anything but gratitude to both John and Dean and decree him a brat then there isnt anything either one of us have in common .
You do know the definifition of rant is to 'speak in a violent, impassioned way.' When Dean was angry the impassioned way might be true but Dean rarely is angry when he speaks. In fact in Citizen Fang he was not angry when he spoke about Benny to Sam. He was being reasonable trying to communicate.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 03:21
Sorry guys I think you are both wrong, in my opinion. I don't agree that Sam has been acting like a spoiled brat or that Dean did what he did just to protect Benny. Though it was a crappy move on Dean's part it kept Benny and Sam apart thus averting any bloodshed. Contrary to other opinions, Dean cares about both of these people. I think he wanted to get to the bottom of it all and was fully prepared to take out Benny if necessary as evidenced by the machete (?) he had behind his back.

I do want to see Sam and Dean say how they are feeling but in a healing way, not angry outburst that will push them apart even farther. I am not in the camp that thinks Sam should say F-you to Dean and go his separate way. They might as well cancel the show. If they eventually go their own ways I have no problem with it if it is mutual and not on hateful terms. Neither one is completely without some fault in getting to where they are now.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 12:30
Totally agree except for the crappy move on Dean's part. Sam refused to listen to Dean so Dean used the only thing he could, a voice that Sam would listen to, Amelia's. Sam said he'd give Dean the time to talk to Benny, to change things but when Dean came back and explained Sam dismissed it by saying Dean was too close and was being duped by Benny. He was treating Dean as he did John. He assumed John was hunting for vengenance for Mary but I believe John knew Mary would still be alive if something hadn't drawn her to the nursery. Which leads to the thought 'What was this creature doing in his 6 mos. old sons nursery?' I believe John went into hunting to 1 protect his kids and make sure if need be protect themselves and 2 avenge Mary. When he found out John planned to summon Azazel he automatically jumped to the conclusion John was doing it to avenge Mary ignoring a dying Dean. No one has called him on these incorrect conclusions. Sam says John was wrong for hunting to avenge Mary yet when Sam showed himself a hypocrite when he joined Dean for one reason only to avenge Jess death yet no one mentioned it. Sam said Mary died when Dean was 4 and Jess was dead 6 months which sounded as if he was saying because Jess death was more recent his pain was more important then a child who didn't know he even had emotions whose world upended so that the child grew into a man terrified of abandonment. Despite Dean wanting nothing more then his family together he pushed John away to protect him and all Sam cared about was getting revenge for Jess. He bashed Dean for his faith in John. Sam has no business bashing Dean's faith. It's Deans faith and like Dean respected Sam's faith in god/church Sam should do the same. Dean unlike some fans believe has no problem thinking for himself. Dead man's blood proved that when Sam snapped yes sir but Dean responded yes but we saved your ass. Dean knows John had decades more in the job and still had most of his parts where they were supposed to be which suggested he knew what he was doing. So Dean knew obeying John was a smart move. If Sam had said what he needed in the planning time instead when enroute to get the colt the girl who was turned might still of been human. Sam picked the worst time to confront John. Every fight that John/Sam had Sam started. Sam says John's a drunnk yet in Nightmare he says if John had drank more and less hunting they would of been Max. Which is it? A drunk or not a drunk.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-08 03:41
I dont need Sam to say f=you neither do I want angry outbursts but for Sam to have his say. I dont doubt with Sam the whole I need to get him away was in Dean's head but I do believe Benny was the priority at that time.

I dont need the brothers to be in each others pockets but if we are going to have a brothers relationship then it has to be for both of them not just Dean because right now that relationship is a lonely place for Sam and that needs to change .
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2012-12-08 14:20
I agree.

I would really like Sam to tell Dean that yes, he's betrayed him and let him down, but Dean has betrayed and let down Sam too. That's what humans do and nobody's perfect. Dean seems to think that's he's never done that, and it really bothers me about the character.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 14:37
I agree and it is a big wide 2 way street. They do need to talk and Dean needs to admit to his mistakes also. It is so hard for him though. I think he has felt bad about many things but apologizing is is not in his nature. Hopefully this is what the show is working towards.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 13:58
Apologizing isn't a guy thing. I remember Jack/Daniel in Stargate when they argued because of a sound cause irratation between them. They believed something was wrong with them and when the doc gave them the all clear because they hadn't figured out the sound issue yet the guys hemmed and hawed and bounced around actually apologizing while apologizing. Thet never actually said 'I'm sorry.' Yet it was said without being said. They mat say sorry to women but a guy generally doesn't just say I'm sorry to another guy directly from my exoerience.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 12:49
Dean called Sam on his choices and Sam tried to say Dean was just as bad by saying they bith played fast and loose. As Dean said he's lied but he never betrayed Sam and he hasn't. Dean has looked for Sam, kept him from being used as a demon blood weapon, help detox Sam twice from demon blood, sold his soul to resurrect Sam. He has been there rescuing Sam, cleaning up Sam's messes and yet Sam has berated him for his faith in John, etc. He got Dean not to kill the guy in the demon disease infected town and caused more deaths because the guy in question was the demon who infected the town. Everytime Dean has listened to Sam people suffer. Dean didn't kill Lenore who Sam let go because she kidnapped him, told him she was good and then returned him to the motel. He had no reason to trust her but he did yet Benny who Dean says is a friend, the reason Dean's not in purgatory, saved Dean and Cas life in purgatory and got Dean out of purgatory and back with Sam yet Sam completely refuses to give Benny any chance of acceptance despite everything Benny's done to prove he's a good guy. He let Martin cuff Dean unconscious to a radiator knowing Dean had outted himself to the locals as Benny's friend meaning Sam left his brothe defenseless if Desmond tracked him down to kill him. Benny wouldn't answer Dean's calls because he wanted to handle his problem without endangering Dean. He knew from Prentiss Island Dean would insist on helpoing/put himself in danger to help. Sam took off because he got the text from Amelia leaving Martin in the middle of a job which could of gotten him killed. Unsupervised because Sam cared more about Amelia caused Elizabeth's trauma, Benny's problems made worse and Martin dead. Sam could of called Amelia and asked why the text and found out she didn't send it yet he didn't do the simple common sense thing but abandoned another person and ran off to a woman who dumped him for her hubby. Why is Amelia so important to him he takes off? Can't be the normal life bit because her reuniting with Don cancelled that possibility.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 13:24
Quote:
Everytime Dean has listened to Sam people suffer.
I'm sorry, but I find such views to be quite unbalanced, biased, and untenable.
shsh33
# shsh33 2012-12-08 17:59
The trick dean did with the phone to get Sam out of town was just harsh . He used the one thing Sam cares about against him. Can you imagine how Dean would react if Sam pulled that crap with Lisa?
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 12:55
Sam did the same pretending to give Dean time to prove Benny wasn't the killer and then when he came back with faith Benny wasn't the murderer Sam just dismissed it as Dean being too close to see what Sam believed to be the truth. When Dean tried to explain Sam hug up so he wouldn't have to confronted with the truth Sam was wrong about Benny who once again saved Dean's life. Dean knows the truth but Sam refuses to accept the truth no matter the evidence. Sam seems to be almost as delusional as Martin was with his hostility to Benny and the childish body check when Cas wanted to ride shotgun shows Sam's hostility isn't just to Benny but Cas as well. It's as if he feels threatened that Dean would have anybody but him/Sam in Dean's life.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-12 14:19
Quote:
Sam did the same pretending to give Dean time to prove Benny wasn't the killer
He did give Dean the time he asked for. Dean did not come back with proof. He came back with, as you said, faith. Dean gave Sam nothing bar Benny’s word that it was a different vampire. He did not give a name or a location. Benny gave Dean nothing tangible about this other vampire. I’m sorry but that’s not proof; that’s finger pointing.

Quote:
Sam just dismissed it as Dean being too close to see what Sam believed to be the truth.

A valid argument. Had Benny been any other vampire, based on what they had, he’d have been long dead. Dean came across Benny burying the body of another victim. Why did he do that? Why didn't he call in Dean? Desmond was killed on nothing more than Benny’s word and we didn’t see him do a thing either.

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When Dean tried to explain Sam hug up

I really don't blame him for hanging up. What exactly could Dean tell him that he hadn't already told him?

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so he wouldn't have to confronted with the truth Sam was wrong about Benny
There’s no evidence of that bar Benny's (another suspect) word.

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...who once again saved Dean's life.

And he took an awful long time to do it. First he leads Dean into this vampires nest, then he leaves him on his own, then he takes him time coming to the rescue. Alarm bells ringing?

Quote:
Dean knows the truth but Sam refuses to accept the truth no matter the evidence.
Dean 'knows' what he wants to be the truth. And there was no evidence.

Quote:
Sam seems to be almost as delusional as Martin was with his hostility to Benny and the childish body check when Cas wanted to ride shotgun shows Sam's hostility isn't just to Benny but Cas as well.
He’s hostile to Castiel for not wanting to sit in the backseat of the car? Tawrens, you’re really stretching things here! Hey, why didn’t Dean let Sam drive and then Castiel could have ridden shotgun? Problem solved.

Quote:
It's as if he feels threatened that Dean would have anybody but him/Sam in Dean's life.
There’s always been someone bar Sam in Dean’s life; John, Bobby, Castiel, Lisa and now Benny. Throw in the likes of Garth and if there's one thing Dean is not short on it's company.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 16:07
Quote:
Quote:
Sam did the same pretending to give Dean time to prove Benny wasn't the killer
He did give Dean the time he asked for. Dean did not come back with proof. He came back with, as you said, faith. Dean gave Sam nothing bar Benny’s word that it was a different vampire. He did not give a name or a location. Benny gave Dean nothing tangible about this other vampire. I’m sorry but that’s not proof; that’s finger pointing.


So it's okay for Sam not to trust Dean but Dean can be trashed for not trusting Dean after years of Sam doing things that proves he's not trustworthy?

Quote:
When Dean tried to explain Sam hug up

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really don't blame him for hanging up. What exactly could Dean tell him that he hadn't already told him?
Elizabeth's trauma resulting from Sam's actions? How what he did had echoes. How people were affected by Sam's inability to trust a man who has done every thing for him?

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...who once again saved Dean's life.

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And he took an awful long time to do it. First he leads Dean into this vampires nest, then he leaves him on his own, then he takes him time coming to the rescue. Alarm bells ringing?
Dean and Benny came into the building together. How do you know Benny left Dean. Dean could of left Benny. Benny was only a few minutes and it could of been because it took that long to get to him.

Quote:
Sam seems to be almost as delusional as Martin was with his hostility to Benny and the childish body check when Cas wanted to ride shotgun shows Sam's hostility isn't just to Benny but Cas as well.

Quote:
He’s hostile to Castiel for not wanting to sit in the backseat of the car? Tawrens, you’re really stretching things here! Hey, why didn’t Dean let Sam drive and then Castiel could have ridden shotgun? Problem solved.
Not really. It was Dean's car yet Sam was telling Cas he couldn't ride shotgun. Ok I'll let that pass because he spends a lot of time in the car and did own it when Dean was 'dead' but was the bodycheck really necessary? It seemed overly childish action to me.

Quote:
It's as if he feels threatened that Dean would have anybody but him/Sam in Dean's life.
There’s always been someone bar Sam in Dean’s life; John, Bobby, Castiel, Lisa and now Benny. Throw in the likes of Garth and if there's one thing Dean is not short on it's company.

John who Sam trashed Dean's faith in. Lisa who Sam tried to get Dean to return to hunting even after he said he had to protect Lisa and Ben and even blackmailed Dean into meeting him when he had the shapershifter baby. Sam knows Dean's not buddies with Garth to the point he is with Cas and Benny. Castiel the person he told Dean without evidencer and only Sam's word that Cas was a traitor and then got pissed when Dean didn't just accept it but needed proof? Who he bodychecked to keep Castiel from riding shotgun? Bobby who he cold bloody attacked and stabbed saying he had to be the Trickster with no proof? Luckily he was right.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-12 16:17
So basically Tawrens Sam is to blame for everything while the others have just been the victims of Sam who snared them in his wicked plan to ruin their lives have I got that right .
I am just waiting for the great Lucky Charms masterplan .

IMO and with respect you are seeing blame where none exist's. Sam did not trash Dean's faith in John that was circumstances and also on their relationship not Sam.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 19:01
Quote:
So basically Tawrens Sam is to blame for everything while the others have just been the victims of Sam who snared them in his wicked plan to ruin their lives have I got that right .
I am just waiting for the great Lucky Charms masterplan .

IMO and with respect you are seeing blame where none exist's. Sam did not trash Dean's faith in John that was circumstances and also on their relationship not Sam.
Yes he did. It is not up to Sam to understand Dean's faith in John or declare it blind as in 'Faith without true understanding or perception.' Who is Sam to declare whether Dean's faith in anything is without true understanding? Sam showed a lot of ego in telling his brother he didn't understand his blind faith when it was obvious Dean's faith in John wasn't blind. He was able to speak up when he felt it was needed. As in telling John he had a better chance of winning the lotto then getting a hold of John or he disobeyed but it saved John's ass. It's Sam who trashed John as a drunk and Dean as so needy he had blind faith in the wrong person and was 'needy for dad's approval.'

Sam has had his moments seasons 1-7 as has other characters in the show but this season Sam has had an unreasoning anger with Benny considering his history with Lenore it makes him a hypocrite. And why after seemingly making peace and friends with Cas he's acting like him as he did by angrily saying no and bodychecking him over the simple request to ride shotgun?

I never said Sam was to blame for everything just his share of it. Your answer is saying I said sonething I didn't. Why are you so threatened by the idea that Sam could be responsible for some of the grief others deal with not to mention what he deals with?
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 19:10
In all fairness, Tawrens, a lot of your posts have come across as extremely biased. You've spent a lot of time bringing up the long history of all of Sam's perceived faults and flaws but none of Dean's or John's, and are speaking the language of blame. It may not be what you intended, but it has come across IMO as very uncharitable and unbalanced toward one character in favor of another. I can understand Sharon's frustration. However, I think the conversation is getting a bit more ad-hominem than is healthy at this point.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 22:14
(Edited by Alice) - I already warned anything off topic was being edited or moved. This is irrelevant to the review. Plus, your post is VERY Sam vs. Dean, which is against our rules.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 22:26
(Edited by Alice - no problem Bamboo24, I get you didn't see the warning. For fairness sake, I'm removing the response since I did remove the post you're responding to.)
Alice
# Alice 2012-12-12 21:32
Yep, I'm putting an end to this. This conversation has strayed way too far. This is irrelevant to this topic, which is a review of "Citizen Fang." Tawrens, I'm redirecting you to the "Let's Discuss" threads. Pick a subject, put your displeasure of Sam's behavior there, but I do warn, if you're harsh on any character, I cannot protect from fan responses in defense.

Any further posts along this line will be moved immediately.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 22:28
Quote:
Any further posts along this line will be moved immediately.
Oops - sorry Alice. Didn't see this until just now.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-12 19:17
Tawrens, I always have problems with comments that skew towards one character always being in the right while the other is selfish and always in the wrong. You have the right to your opinion, but as in real life sometimes the truth lies somewhere in the middle. These are two good people who are as different from each other as night and day but who do what they think is right. Sometimes they are wrong, both of them. They are flawed, but heroes nonetheless.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-12 22:23
Quote:
Tawrens, I always have problems with comments that skew towards one character always being in the right while the other is selfish and always in the wrong. You have the right to your opinion, but as in real life sometimes the truth lies somewhere in the middle. These are two good people who are as different from each other as night and day but who do what they think is right. Sometimes they are wrong, both of them. They are flawed, but heroes nonetheless.
Quote:
Tawrens, I always have problems with comments that skew towards one character always being in the right while the other is selfish and always in the wrong. You have the right to your opinion, but as in real life sometimes the truth lies somewhere in the middle. These are two good people who are as different from each other as night and day but who do what they think is right. Sometimes they are wrong, both of them. They are flawed, but heroes nonetheless.
That's what I've been saying. Dean had no choice to do what he did because it was the only voice Sam would listen to. Dean tried to talk Sam down but Sam refused to listen so Dean was left with trying to separate the two since they couldn't play well together. Benny was willing despite the way Sam treated him when they first met. Despite Lenore, Sam's getting Dean to change his all monsters are evil in Season 2 bloodlust (Edited by Alice, character insults, Sam vs. Dean). Why can't Sanm accept Dean's assurance when he so easily accepted Lenore's on less evidence and no where as long as an association as he had with Dean.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-14 13:38
Quote:
He did give Dean the time he asked for. Dean did not come back with proof. He came back with, as you said, faith. Dean gave Sam nothing bar Benny’s word that it was a different vampire. He did not give a name or a location. Benny gave Dean nothing tangible about this other vampire. I’m sorry but that’s not proof; that’s finger pointing.

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Sam just dismissed it as Dean being too close to see what Sam believed to be the truth.

A valid argument. Had Benny been any other vampire, based on what they had, he’d have been long dead. Dean came across Benny burying the body of another victim. Why did he do that? Why didn't he call in Dean? Desmond was killed on nothing more than Benny’s word and we didn’t see him do a thing either.

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When Dean tried to explain Sam hug up

I really don't blame him for hanging up. What exactly could Dean tell him that he hadn't already told him?

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so he wouldn't have to confronted with the truth Sam was wrong about Benny
There’s no evidence of that bar Benny's (another suspect) word.

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...who once again saved Dean's life.

And he took an awful long time to do it. First he leads Dean into this vampires nest, then he leaves him on his own, then he takes him time coming to the rescue. Alarm bells ringing?

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Dean knows the truth but Sam refuses to accept the truth no matter the evidence.
Dean 'knows' what he wants to be the truth. And there was no evidence.

Quote:
Sam seems to be almost as delusional as Martin was with his hostility to Benny and the childish body check when Cas wanted to ride shotgun shows Sam's hostility isn't just to Benny but Cas as well.
He’s hostile to Castiel for not wanting to sit in the backseat of the car? Tawrens, you’re really stretching things here! Hey, why didn’t Dean let Sam drive and then Castiel could have ridden shotgun? Problem solved.
Sam giving Dean time was an exercise in futility because he intended to dismiss it before he even gave him the time. Sam refuses to listen to anyone about Benny or accept that Benny could be like Lenore a vampire that Sam let go and when Dean wanted to gank her regardless Sam argued the point the same as Dean is doing with Sam about Benny. As Lenore was let go on Sam's word so should Benny.

Dean could of told him Benny saved his life or they could of talked and worked things out. It was obvious Dean was willing.

Dean had already said no and so had Sam why was it necessary to body check him. That seemed aggressive to me.

As for always someone in Dean's life. John, Bobby, Castiel, Lisa aren't in his life regular. Sam was angry towards John according to cannon until Dean came to get him. Sam saw his brother was hunting alone no John to be angry with. Bobby wasn't in the field until he died and Castiel until recently popped in and out of Dean's life. Lisa he visited when he was in town again someone he didn't see regularly and she was a girlfriend not someone Dean hunted with.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2012-12-08 18:36
Long term I see Carver using this season to clean out as much of the brothers emotional crap as possible and towards the end of the season having them forge a stronger relationship then they have ever had (dare I think it - perhaps the infamous VOICEMAIL of season 4 might even be dealt with - pleeeeze Carver?). I see it as a turning point in the Winchester's lives - and am still hoping for a reappearance of the Samulet!
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 18:42
I think so too TeresaPezzino!!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-09 08:49
I hope this turns out to be what happens too, Teresa :)

Oh, I have missed the 'Samulet', I really have. I wish that it could be brought back in some way (ideally as a visible sign that the big rift between Sam and Dean has been healed) :sigh:
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-12 14:36
I agree, I think Carver is trying to achieve something like this, however no Samulet please, that represents a completely different relationship to the one they're trying to achieve now and it has no place in the story any more.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-13 00:19
How is past history used to trash Dean ok as in re:purgatory, Dean not elling Sam about Benny as soon as he saw Sam again. As an adult it was my understanding Dean only had to be responsible to Dean. Why do some posters feel Dean has to report eveything to Sam like a misbehaving child and Sam is his parent? Sam isn't Dean's parole officer and if it hadn't been for Sam showing up at Prentis Island he may have never found out about Benny and it wouldn't of been the first time Sam found out Dean had friends he didn't know about?
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-13 00:21
In reponse to Bamboo. No Dean bashing?

E says Dean's being played by Benny and with as long as Dean has been hunting he'd be pretty stupid if he wasn't aware of being played.
Dean's investigation into the whole Benny situation consisted of talking to Benny and nothing more. That's not good hunting. In the time allotted by Sam what is he supposed to do. Sam had less proof concerning Lenore but Dean accepted Sam's word.
But I guess a heartfelt apology isn't good enough, nor is throwing yourself into the Devil's pit for 180 years, no, Dean wants the perfect relationship with someone who will never get it wrong, who will never betray him or make any mistakes ever for the remainder of his life. It's beyond unrealistic. Sam having jumped in Lucifer's box had nothing to do with Dean. What apology heartfelt or otherwise? Dean wants a perfect relationship. Since when has Dean been interested in a relationship? Perfect or otherwise? Sam he has given the benefot of the doubt over and over.
Cruelty through ignorance is on par with malicious cruelty IMO. Dean is ignorant because all he's been about the Amelia situation is derogatory, repeatedly calling her "the girl" as though she isn't an adult and isn't real enough to have a name; or making snide comments like "did you slip your chocolate into her peanut butter?" using crude sexual metaphors to debase the relationship.

Percy said Of course, Dean acts foolishly in this scene as well. for trying to keep Sam and Martin from jumping Benny while Dean hunted Desmond. If Dean wasn't back in the allotted time what do you think Sam would of done?

Bamboo I think you have caught on to exactly what we were supposed to catch on to. Benny's story is extraordinarily fishy, and Sam is right - Dean's "too close to this" to see it, hence his illogical reaction to all this. He doesn't want to believe that Benny would let him down. But what Sam said is exactly right - "You wanted some time and I gave you some time; now there's a second body." Yet Desmond attacked Dean and mentioned Benny not saying anything about bringing a friend when he violently attacked Dean and if Benny was the bad guy all he had to do was wait for Desmond to kill Dean.

Melanie Right -- and Dean not trusting Sam is Sam not having 'stone number one'.
Of course Sam never had 'normal' -- its about him wanting 'normal' -- to feel safe, secure, wanted, trusted -- call it 'peace' instead of 'mommy' -- Sam's never had it. I beg to differ John/Dean did their best for Sam to feel safe, secure, wanted, trusted but apparently their efforts don't count.

Tim Dean has told Sam very little about Benny, why? Once again, if Benny is on the up and up because of Purgatory why has Dean said next to nothing about that time with Benny in Purgatory? Why didn’t Dean bring Sam with him when he went to investigate Benny? Surely having Sam see with his own two eyes that Benny is not who he believes he is would be a surefire way to get Sam to ease off so why hasn’t he done it? As he said after 4 mos in hell. It's not like it's a bad hair day. Bringing Sam into the presence of the very person he's got a hard on to kill?!
Dean trusts Benny because, per Dean, he’s never let him down. Is that the sole criteria that dictates who should be trusted for Dean? Whoa, that seems very conditional and will be hard to maintain given that Dean’s moral standards fluctuate a lot. His moral standard changes but no it's just too high for it to be reasonable?
Should Sam trust Dean? He’s given Sam no reason to trust him and has actually given him plenty of reasons to not trust him. He said he’s not the same person, he’s keeping secrets, trusting monsters, being deliberately evasive. Gee sounds like Sam when investigating the deaths of Mary's friends and family, running with Ruby using his powers when he said he wasn't using said gifts. Running off to check out Amy without telling Dean why Sam took off having Dean figured it out via the news. Sam is no more a saint then Dean. Dean however lied to protect Sam. Why tell him what John said so Sam can be afraid and think the worst. Amy murdered 5 men regardless if they were scum. Dean knew as a mother Amy wouyld protect her child and kill again if needed despite her promises because parenting 101 protect the child. Everybody is seeing Dean as horrible for seeing Amy as a monster but he's not. He's seeing her as the protective mom he knows her to be.
You’ll have to help me out here, Ginger, what choice did Dean give him? Should he have gone to help the woman he loved or should he have continued with Martin to go after Benny? Or would the right choice have been to forget about Amelia (who he believed was in danger), forget about Benny (who he believed was killing people) and go back to Dean? Strange, I don’t recall that being an option. Common sense says if she could text and didn't say 911 or emergency or in danger a simple phone call to find out what's going on would be the thing to do.
Sam only looks bad if you want him to look bad, and some posters do. That has been the way for years (since season 4 for most of those who dislike Sam), and it will continue to be the way. Many posters choose to interpret Sam’s actions in the worst possible way, possibly to validate their theory that Sam is some sort of asshat that will never be redeemed etc. Sam is only irredeemable if you want him to be irredeemable and considering that many posters are still holding things like Sam going to college as evidence that Sam betrayed Dean, or are completely dismissive of every act of redemption he performs, he’ll never be redeemable for some; their loss. Really? How is it Sam's time in Lucifer's toybox proved Dean could trust him? Especially after Sam didn't tell Dean about being soulless, having hallucinations even knowing that such things would affect the way they worked.

big enough remember what LeviaDean said that Dean doesn't have relationships he has applications for sainthood? well that pretty much sums up Dean's approach to every relationship he's ever had, he expects perfection from everyone all the time. When people fail to live up that rather unrealistic expectation he takes it as a betrayal and personal slight on himself even when people were just trying to do the right thing, or were looking at the bigger picture, or trying to protect him. Really? You're taking the word of sociopath monsters over the last 8 years of seeing Dean in action? Not to mention there has been a couple of posts calling Benny a monster. How is Benny a monster just because he's a vamp?

jo1027 I found Dean's sending that text to Sam horrible. He knew how Sam felt about her. That was a very low blow but on a par with all the other ones he's delivered to Sam this season. Not liking Dean at all this season. What was he supposed to do since Sam made a point of proving he was deaf to Dean?
I don't think it matters if Dean knows how Sam feels about her. He knew Sam had feelings for her in the past which makes what he did horribly cruel. He made Sam feel fear for someone he knew. I'm sorry, but for me there is no excuse for what he did. I found it appalling. A fear Sam could of immediately ease by calling instead of driving miles across states to see her in person?

eilf Well really Dean doesn't know how Sam feels about Amelia, he hasn't asked, and even her name Sam had to force on him.
He may think that Sam was not serious about her and he just left her after having a fling, therefore she is fair game for him to use to fool Sam. Really you believe Dean is that cruel to someone Dean spent his life protecting? Telling Sam at 5 not to ask questions so he'd stay innocent and yet you need to realize Dean was 9 when said this. Sam wished in Wicked for his innocence back but Dean bypassed his own needs and qished Sam had his innocence back and yet this man could go against that kindness just a few short years later.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-13 00:49
Deleted: Since I posted I have realized there is no point to being involved in this discussion.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-13 07:48
Quote:
Since I posted I have realized there is no point to being involved in this discussion.
Yep, I feel the same way.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-13 08:57
(Edited by Alice. Sorry, but "Be respectful" is a coveted rule here, even if it is in response to someone ruffling feathers).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-13 12:59
I was happy at the way eilf responded.
Alice
# Alice 2012-12-13 11:30
I do thank you for that.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-13 11:43
You're welcome. :-) Coming up with daft conspiracy theories (my current one is that Garth isn't a hunter at all but is actually Puck - because that makes more sense to me) and admiring the pretty over on the objectification thread is more my line anyway.
E
# E 2012-12-14 15:36
Tawrens, IMO You aren't interested in having any type of meaningful discussion here, you are interested in being right and canonizing one character at the expense of another. There is nothing logical in any of the posts I've read so far; your "evidence" is fabricated, manipulated and skewed past all reasonableness. So, I for one am not going to respond to your comments beyond this one as it's an utter waste of time. It also occurs to me that your posts read very much like wunderpats in scope and content, so I have to wonder if you are one in the same.
Alice
# Alice 2012-12-14 15:47
IP addresses indicate they are not the same. I'm watching all these posts carefully, but especially Tawrens. I've edited a few, I'll continue to edit. But yes, if someone is trying to stir up trouble, but is staying within the boundaries of our rules, ignoring them is the best advice possible. Usually replies just fuel the fire and encourage them.
E
# E 2012-12-14 15:52
Thanks Alice! You are a great moderator!
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-13 03:23
Truth be told both boys on occasion make me want to smack them. Dean blames himself too much and thinks too little of himself. This season however Sam seems to be turning into a jerk and he seems to of come to a head in 8.09. The Martin story seems like a rewrite of Season 2 Bloodlust but unlike Martin Gordon stuck around being a jerk for a little longer. Carver needs to write something original. His Sam/Amelia is not believable because no matter how screwed up they are the boys wouldn't stand there and take the abuse Amelia heaps on Sam. Dean is being loyal to people who have proven themselves to him which is consistent with Dean season 1-8. He's also as in the past is trying to protect Sam from himself if need be. Again consistent for Dean. However Sam has become abrasive, angry and reacting illogically. He's meek with Amelia when he should tell her where to get off and manic with Benny which I don't understand at all.
Alice
# Alice 2012-12-13 11:23
This is an off topic admin post. Considering I'm also the author of this article, I figured I could get away with this here.

Once upon a time, I used to do "reality check" articles. It was essentially a lot of preaching over why Sam vs. Dean or Jensen vs. Jared posts made no flipping sense.

What I'm trying to wrap my head around, is why is it a sin to criticize the actions of one character? Why is that a grand setup that because you're questioning one character's actions, you're putting the other on a pedestal? Where does that remotely say that in the language?

Dean was mean for sending the text. Sam was mean for siding with Martin. I do believe I said that in the review, but that's so far up top on this page I think people have forgotten. Why is it when someone only mentions that Dean was mean, people jump in defending Sam was too and that person is being anti Dean. Huh? The over sensitivity drives me mad.

Also, I'm seriously considering making a new rule editing posts that quotes someone else's post line from line and picks it apart. That's really kind of intimidating, don't you think? That's not what I had in mind for a civil, constructive discussion. We are supposed to be of level heads here.

Thank you. I feel better now. :)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-13 13:04
Quote:
why is it a sin to criticize the actions of one character?
Every one has a right to express their views and people are free to disagree.It only becomes a sin when you omit facts to support your view.I am sorry for my earlier comment.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-13 13:15
As someone who often quotes whole paragraphs or lines when replying, I do apologise. I mainly do it for clarity, reference and focus, not to intimidate, and did not dream that it could be perceived as doing so.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-13 13:21
I appreciate the quotations. I read the article and then subscribe to comments in my email. With quotations, I have some idea of what is being referenced in a reply. For me, it means that I don't have to go to the original thread, find the comment I have just read and then find what the commenter is responding to. However if posters are intimidated with large parts of their posts being quoted, I'll cope.

Basically, Tim, what you do makes my life easier.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-13 13:29
Tim and percysowner:

I would think the key phrase would be "and picks it apart" - I don't think she means there's a problem with quoting someone or responding to quotes in the way you've described. [I do the same thing!] :)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-13 13:26
Perhaps we all should take a breather. :)

anonymousN, as a law student, I can tell you that "facts" are tricky things that can maximized and minimized at discretion and depending on one's perception. :)

[Insert personal soapbox disclaimer]: I think the key is just being chill and realizing it's a TV show that many people watch for a variety of reasons, and of course we don't always agree. And of course there's a lot of emotion - positive and negative -wrapped up with this. Sometimes tempers flare - but I think the key is to try and always be understanding of the other person - think the best of your neighbor, you know - the golden rule. It's also the manner in which one expresses their views - aggressive or 'baiting' posts are just unnecessary. A person can be persuasive without being aggressive. Not that I'm the patron saint of fan-comments or anything, JMHO. [Gets down off soapbox to go take a nap]. :P

I personally will be taking a brief commenting-hell atus (just because I have nothing more to really talk about until the next episode) unless someone responds directly to a post I've already made. :)

I respect the efforts you make to keep this a place for respectful, constructive conversation, Alice. You are and the other admins are appreciated.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-13 13:45
Quote:
I can tell you that "facts" are tricky things that can maximized and minimized at discretion and depending on one's perception.
Facts should not be minimized or maximized but the interpretation can vary.but then again I am no Law student. :P (please don't misunderstand the smiley.I think I have used it properly.I am being funny)Quote:
I respect the efforts you make to keep this a place for respectful, constructive conversation, Alice. You are and the other admins are appreciated.
I 100% agree.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-13 13:55
anonymousN:

I understand the smiley, and send you one in return. :)
propaganda
# propaganda 2012-12-13 13:57
hello friend..visit your nice blog..

greeting from Malaysia..!!

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Leah
# Leah 2012-12-13 14:30
I agree with anonymousN and Bamboo, it is very much appreciated. I also think it is fine to praise or criticize a character or the direction the writers/show is taking. I think respect is the key.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2012-12-14 16:10
I am in no way canonizing anyone and as for giving Dean the same as I'm giving Sam I figured since so many were already making a big deal about a text that Dean wouldn't of needed if Sam would of given Dean at least benefit of the doubt after decades together there was no need to trash Dean. It is becoming aware that no one here is interested in anything but blaming Dean and making excuses for Sam. The posts I tried to show Sam was at least as responsible as Dean have labelled me a Sam baser, hater, rabble rouser. So I'll leave you to the silent worship of your idol and stick to the boards willing to have a real discussion.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-14 16:46
With all due respect if you had kept to the episode then maybe the reaction might of been different. You inexplicably brought John into it then acted has if Sam didnt have the right to have the issues he had with his father you then tried to say Sam trashed Dean's faith in John again not true and again unnecessary.

The text message was planned not a off the cuff decision that made a difference . Decades together doesnt of seemed to of stop Dean in either what he has said and how he has acted .
I think both brothers reacted to the circumstances truth be told.