“I did what I had to do.” Talk about a loaded sentence. But it’s a sentiment that applies to every major story arc for this season. It seems this whole season has been about trying to make the best of a bad situation, even if it takes an act of pure desperation. On some level I already knew that, but this episode had a way of bringing it all together for us.

Dean’s act of desperation was easily the most obvious since we’ve been grappling with the potential consequences all season. Is Ezekiel good or bad? Is he trying to take Sam’s body as a vessel? Will he leave once Sam is healed? Well, as it turns out, Ezekiel wasn’t Ezekiel at all. Curveball! And this act of desperation on Dean’s part had some seriously awful consequences for the people he loves. But he did what he felt he had to do in that moment and I still can’t say I disagree with his decision. Knowing Dean, we know what losing Sam would mean to him. He would be completely and utterly destroyed. And while it’s a selfish move, I’m a selfish viewer who wasn’t ready to let Sam go either, no matter what needed to be done. Just save Sam and figure out the rest later.

Even when Dean is explaining the situation to “Sam” you can see the desperation and the torment he went through in making the decision.

Dean: I gotta tell you some stuff fast and it’s gonna piss you off.”
Sam: “Ok”
Dean: “Those trials really messed you up.”
Sam: ‘Yes, I know that, Dean.”
Dean: “No you don’t. I mean messed you up like almost dead. Dust to dust. Well, that messed me up so I made a move. A tough move about you without talking it over because you were in a coma.”
Sam: “Wait, what? When?”
Dean: “You were in the hospital, ok, and they said you were gonna die.”
Sam: “Dean, what did you do?”
Dean: “I let an angel in.”
Sam: “In what?”
Dean: “In you. He said he could heal you, and he is.”

Sam: “He’s still in me? Wait, that’s impossible Dean, I never let him in.”
Dean: “I tricked you into saying yes. It seemed like the only way.”
Sam: “So, again you thought I couldn’t handle something so you took over.”
Dean: “I did what I had to do. You would have never agreed to it and you would have died.”

You hear the desperation. But you don’t hear regret. He’s not sorry for saving Sam, even if the circumstances were less than ideal. I wonder if he feels differently now knowing the full extent of the situation and all the consequences that came along with it.

promo003

Gadriel, you son of a… To say I am upset would be an understatement. First he takes Sam’s body hostage and then he kills our sweet little prophet in his own act of desperation. While I’m inclined to hate him, his backstory is an interesting one. He was God’s most trusted angel, charged with protecting God’s greatest creation from evil and he failed. Because of this he was locked away in the dungeons of Heaven to pay for his mistakes. So it’s no wonder that when the angels fell to earth he was anxious to find a way to hide himself. That much I can forgive because it’s hard not to feel just a little bad for him. He seems convinced that it’s not his fault that the serpent entered the Garden of Eden. But he’s been punished and hated for it for so long. But my sympathy stops there. He has a chance to change his reputation and instead he takes up with Metatron, the most hated angel there is. Sure Metatron makes him all kinds of promises about rebuilding Heaven into God’s original vision, with only the best of the best allowed in. But doesn’t he know how Castiel was deceived? He’s been in Sam’s head long enough to have overheard that in conversation. And when Metatron tells Gadriel that he’ll need to neutralize their enemies, it’s clear he’s uneasy with the situation.

Gadriel: “That is not who I am.”

Well, it is now! He had the chance to say no, to realize this could not have been what God wanted for his perfect vision of Heaven but instead he did what he had to do to save his own ass. And Kevin Tran paid the price. I find myself wondering who will be next on Metatron’s list. Surely Castiel, Bartholomew and Malachi. But what about Dean?

SPN 9.9 Cass

Cass has had his own desperate moments this season as he has wrestled with guilt, hopelessness and humanity. He tried so hard to accept his fate and make the best of being a human but his feelings of responsibility and duty took over. And at the end of the day he did what he had to do to save himself and reclaim his grace. Well, not his grace exactly, but it will do. He is an angel again and I couldn’t be happier. I loved watching Cass navigate the intricacies of human interaction. It was such a fun change but I am definitely ready to have our ass-kicking angel back! And we need him now more than ever. Someone has to help Dean take down Metatron and Gadriel.

The second half of the season looks like it’s going to be chock-full of action. We’ll have Metatron and Gadriel to deal with, as well as Malachai and Bartholomew. All three groups are powerful and looking to gain control of Heaven. On top of that we have Crowley, the blood junkie, jumping at the chance to save Sam in exchange for his freedom. While his freedom means more Abaddon, it also means bad things for the Winchesters. I doubt he’ll be willing to just let the last few month’s go. My head is spinning!

As stressed as I am about Sam being an unwilling vessel, Kevin’s death and Metatron’s plans to become the new god, I can’t help but think about how beautifully the writers were able to bring together all of these storylines. This is what I hate/love about mid-season finales. They create a perfect storm of emotions and then just leave us to stew over the hiatus. If we’re going to go crazy, we might as well do it together!

There were some lines and moments that can’t go unmentioned!

The fight between the glee club and the born-again bikers was pretty awesome.

Dean: “You’re not up to warp speed yet, but you will be. Would I lie?”
Oh, Dean...

promo007

Sam: “Agent”
Cass: (Smiling) “Agent”
He was so proud of himself.

Cass: “Cass is back in town!”
Dean: “Seriously, did he just say that?”

Cass: “It is so good being together again. You know, this is my first beer as a human. I hope it’s ok, me joining you.”
Sam : “Why wouldn’t it be okay?”
Dean: “You know, Cass, are you sure you’re ready to jump back into this? It seemed to me like you actually found some peace.”
Cass: “You once told me, ‘you don’t choose what you do, it chooses you’. I’m a part of this, like it or not.”

Dean and Cass reminiscing about April the hot waitress was hilarious.

Metatron: “I know who you really are, and it isn’t Ezekiel.”
Anyone else’s heart stop?

Dean: “Here’s the deal, when Sam was doing the trials to seal Hell, it messed him up, ok? The third one nearly killed him. If I let him finish it would have. He’s still messed up. Bad.
Cass: “You said the angel Ezekiel helped heal him.”
Dean: “I had to do anything I can to get him back. Now if that means that we keep our distance from you for a little while then I don’t have a choice. I don’t feel good about it, but I don’t have a choice. It’s great to have your help Cass, but we just can’t work together.”

And cue the sound of my heart breaking.

Metatron: “No more stupid angels. Maybe some funny ones.”

Gadriel: “Sam Winchester; it is a mess in here. The brother...I do not know where to start.”
Metatron: “I can free you from them. From all of them.”

Cass: “Ok, I am unfamiliar with this end of the process. Of course, no one may be listening. I have questions and there seem to be no answers. I wouldn’t presume to ask for help if I weren’t desperate. I’m lost, I need your guidance. Please, hear my prayer.”

Castiel’s changing prayer positions made me laugh so much. He really isn’t familiar with that end of the process.

Malachai: “Top-of-the-Christmas-tree Castiel”

Cass: “If we’re going to war, I need to be ready.

Dean: “Yesterday, Cinderella!”

Kevin: “I always trust you. And I always end up screwed.”
Dean: “Always? Not always.”
Well…most of the time.

Gadriel: ‘There is no more Sam. But I played him convincingly, I thought.”
Dean: “How did you…”
Gadriel: “I heard you talk with Kevin Tran tonight. Alter the sigil, even the slightest, alter the spell. Sorry about Kevin but ultimately it’s for the best. I did what I had to.”

Dean saying Kevin’s name at the end of the episode did me in!!

Is it January 14th yet?

 

Comments  

amyh
# amyh 2013-12-04 13:50
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl.... dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-04 13:50
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl.... dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-12-04 13:52
What a wonderful and evil cliff hanger! Now we wait...oh the pain....for everyone.
Dean...oh Dean...but he had the best intentions and did what he thought was best with the information he had at that moment. But will he ever recover?
Sam...oh *tears*. His last two acts of free-will were to live for his brother by not closing the gates of hell and not taking the easy route by dying. Each time he placed his faith in Dean and each has caused a seemingly endless stream of death...exactly the thing he didn't want to do.
Kevin...oh no! Poor boy!
Now it is time to crawl into a dark corner and whimper away for 6 weeks. Oh no!
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-12-04 13:52
What a wonderful and evil cliff hanger! Now we wait...oh the pain....for everyone.
Dean...oh Dean...but he had the best intentions and did what he thought was best with the information he had at that moment. But will he ever recover?
Sam...oh *tears*. His last two acts of free-will were to live for his brother by not closing the gates of hell and not taking the easy route by dying. Each time he placed his faith in Dean and each has caused a seemingly endless stream of death...exactly the thing he didn't want to do.
Kevin...oh no! Poor boy!
Now it is time to crawl into a dark corner and whimper away for 6 weeks. Oh no!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-04 14:47
#1 AmyH - that's an interesting point. Last year we saw the ramifications of Sam not looking for Dean, this year we are seeing what happens when Dean does the exact opposite and saves Sam, regardless of the cost. Look at the collateral damage - Kevin is dead, the batshit crazy Metatron now has an ally in Gadriel, Sam no longer has control of his own meat suit. Which brother would win a self-loathing contest now?

Can't wait to see how this plays out, how Sam reacts when he regains control or ejects Gadriel; will the lack of trust in Dean be equivalent to Dean's losing faith/trust in Sam in season 5? And how will Dean redeem himself and fix this? In the next episode, looks like Dean is ready to make a deal with Crowley; Crowley ejects Gadriel from Sam's vessel in exchange for his freedom. Yep... don't see any problems with that plan ;-)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-04 14:47
#1 AmyH - that's an interesting point. Last year we saw the ramifications of Sam not looking for Dean, this year we are seeing what happens when Dean does the exact opposite and saves Sam, regardless of the cost. Look at the collateral damage - Kevin is dead, the batshit crazy Metatron now has an ally in Gadriel, Sam no longer has control of his own meat suit. Which brother would win a self-loathing contest now?

Can't wait to see how this plays out, how Sam reacts when he regains control or ejects Gadriel; will the lack of trust in Dean be equivalent to Dean's losing faith/trust in Sam in season 5? And how will Dean redeem himself and fix this? In the next episode, looks like Dean is ready to make a deal with Crowley; Crowley ejects Gadriel from Sam's vessel in exchange for his freedom. Yep... don't see any problems with that plan ;-)
Ale
# Ale 2013-12-04 16:20
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.
Ale
# Ale 2013-12-04 16:20
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2013-12-04 16:22
Quoting amyh:
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl....dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.


I agree with this. I feel like they've painted themselves into a corner with this. How can it ever be right between them again? It took so long to bring them back from the events of season 4 and Dean still hasn't completely let it go, but now Sam is just going to have to suck up what Dean did? Yes, Dean did it out of love, but he also did it because of what Sam said to him in the church. He couldn't let Sam go after he'd just told him about being willing to die rather than disappoint him. Sam can't win no matter what he does. And it seems neither can Dean. If Dean could let his brother go, then we wouldn't have a show, would we? It would have ended in season 2.

I really hope they have something innovative up their sleeve to fix this mess.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2013-12-04 16:22
Quote:
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl....dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.
I agree with this. I feel like they've painted themselves into a corner with this. How can it ever be right between them again? It took so long to bring them back from the events of season 4 and Dean still hasn't completely let it go, but now Sam is just going to have to suck up what Dean did? Yes, Dean did it out of love, but he also did it because of what Sam said to him in the church. He couldn't let Sam go after he'd just told him about being willing to die rather than disappoint him. Sam can't win no matter what he does. And it seems neither can Dean. If Dean could let his brother go, then we wouldn't have a show, would we? It would have ended in season 2.

I really hope they have something innovative up their sleeve to fix this mess.
Sabath68
# Sabath68 2013-12-04 16:44
Sofia I'm so happy reading your review, here in Germany they are all pissed off. Don't ask why because I can't understand why.

I loved this Episode it had all classical elements in it.
It was like watching a modern Shakespeare version of Richard III meeting Macbeth in a supernatural universe. All want to gain something for love or power, all well-meaning and all end up with an excuse "I did what I had to do"...

And as always the little ones loose the most. Dean afraid of letting go, now lost everything his brother and his new family friend.

Beautiful storytelling seldom seen on tv.

love & greetz from Berlin
Sabath68
# Sabath68 2013-12-04 16:44
Sofia I'm so happy reading your review, here in Germany they are all pissed off. Don't ask why because I can't understand why.

I loved this Episode it had all classical elements in it.
It was like watching a modern Shakespeare version of Richard III meeting Macbeth in a supernatural universe. All want to gain something for love or power, all well-meaning and all end up with an excuse "I did what I had to do"...

And as always the little ones loose the most. Dean afraid of letting go, now lost everything his brother and his new family friend.

Beautiful storytelling seldom seen on tv.

love & greetz from Berlin
bornagain
# bornagain 2013-12-04 16:45
The grace eating scene was cool because it was so surprising.

The fallen angels are easily manipulated. It's no wonder they're a mess. I'm not sure if Sam's current roomie is all bad. He is following orders from someone he considers a superior just like Cass has done in s-4.

Pamela and Kevin must really hate eye burning angels.

I really enjoyed this episode.
bornagain
# bornagain 2013-12-04 16:45
The grace eating scene was cool because it was so surprising.

The fallen angels are easily manipulated. It's no wonder they're a mess. I'm not sure if Sam's current roomie is all bad. He is following orders from someone he considers a superior just like Cass has done in s-4.

Pamela and Kevin must really hate eye burning angels.

I really enjoyed this episode.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-12-05 00:39
Wow. I have usually watched the episode at least 3 times by now. I can't bring myself to re-watch it yet. Usually when they burn out someone's eyes; it is someone we don't know, or care about. Even knowing it is special effects, it is so creepy to see Osric like that. I can see how Jensen used that visual to make himself cry.

Cass shocked me. I guess he was going to have to kill the guy anyway; so why not take his grace. Had me reeling though.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-12-05 00:39
Wow. I have usually watched the episode at least 3 times by now. I can't bring myself to re-watch it yet. Usually when they burn out someone's eyes; it is someone we don't know, or care about. Even knowing it is special effects, it is so creepy to see Osric like that. I can see how Jensen used that visual to make himself cry.

Cass shocked me. I guess he was going to have to kill the guy anyway; so why not take his grace. Had me reeling though.
mary9930
# mary9930 2013-12-05 06:15
Oh Sofia, my heart was already breaking over GadZeke. Just the thought that he may be asked to kill Dean sends me into a downward spiral. Although it would be a powerful scene, I hate visualizing Sam's body standing over Dean- like Cas last season.
mary9930
# mary9930 2013-12-05 06:15
Oh Sofia, my heart was already breaking over GadZeke. Just the thought that he may be asked to kill Dean sends me into a downward spiral. Although it would be a powerful scene, I hate visualizing Sam's body standing over Dean- like Cas last season.
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-12-05 06:34
I do agree with amyh about Sam and Dean. I got so angry at Dean for the way he treated Sam after the apocalypse and Ruby thing. It all could have been avoided if Dean had talked to Sam instead of judging and making accusations. That being said.... I understand it. I think Dean sets Sam up on this pedestal and when Sam doesn't live up to his expectations... it's a long fall. Dean is more like a father to Sam than a brother. He is the one who raised him. Like any father, he would do anything to save his child, or in this case brother.
This season saving Sam meant doing the unthinkable, letting an angel in. Dean knows this is bad, Sam has been through this before with Lucifer. But he's desperate. Desperate people do stupid things.
Now we have the consequences. Sam is gone. Kevin is dead. :( I don't really know how Dean will deal... the same way he usually does I guess through sarcasm, women and booze. I REALLY hope this time he learned something. Talk to your family and friends!!! Do not always try to handle things on your own. It never works!!!
Sam will not be happy when he is finally brought home. He will be upset over Kevin, and whatever else Gadriel ends up doing. But Sam has a more forgiving heart. I don't think he will stay mad at Dean for long. imo.
Can't wait to see Cas back in action. Having been missing the dynamic between him and the brothers. Got just a small taste this episode and ready for more.
Crowley's back. Yay! I enjoy his evilness. I really hope he destroys the Abaddon bitch because I can't stand her character.
^ weeks is a long time to wait... whatever shall I do? Well.. I may rewatch season 5. :)
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-12-05 06:34
I do agree with amyh about Sam and Dean. I got so angry at Dean for the way he treated Sam after the apocalypse and Ruby thing. It all could have been avoided if Dean had talked to Sam instead of judging and making accusations. That being said.... I understand it. I think Dean sets Sam up on this pedestal and when Sam doesn't live up to his expectations... it's a long fall. Dean is more like a father to Sam than a brother. He is the one who raised him. Like any father, he would do anything to save his child, or in this case brother.
This season saving Sam meant doing the unthinkable, letting an angel in. Dean knows this is bad, Sam has been through this before with Lucifer. But he's desperate. Desperate people do stupid things.
Now we have the consequences. Sam is gone. Kevin is dead. :( I don't really know how Dean will deal... the same way he usually does I guess through sarcasm, women and booze. I REALLY hope this time he learned something. Talk to your family and friends!!! Do not always try to handle things on your own. It never works!!!
Sam will not be happy when he is finally brought home. He will be upset over Kevin, and whatever else Gadriel ends up doing. But Sam has a more forgiving heart. I don't think he will stay mad at Dean for long. imo.
Can't wait to see Cas back in action. Having been missing the dynamic between him and the brothers. Got just a small taste this episode and ready for more.
Crowley's back. Yay! I enjoy his evilness. I really hope he destroys the Abaddon bitch because I can't stand her character.
^ weeks is a long time to wait... whatever shall I do? Well.. I may rewatch season 5. :)
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2013-12-05 07:03
At the beginning of the year, didn't Carver say something about this season being about the consequences of the character actions? Something to that effect....can't help but think about that now with all that's happened so far. Dean's actions, Cas' actions, Gadreel's actions... it's getting deep! I love it!
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2013-12-05 07:03
At the beginning of the year, didn't Carver say something about this season being about the consequences of the character actions? Something to that effect....can't help but think about that now with all that's happened so far. Dean's actions, Cas' actions, Gadreel's actions... it's getting deep! I love it!
sofia
# sofia 2013-12-05 08:27
Quoting Sabath68:
Sofia I'm so happy reading your review, here in Germany they are all pissed off. Don't ask why because I can't understand why.

I loved this Episode it had all classical elements in it.
It was like watching a modern Shakespeare version of Richard III meeting Macbeth in a supernatural universe. All want to gain something for love or power, all well-meaning and all end up with an excuse "I did what I had to do"...

And as always the little ones loose the most. Dean afraid of letting go, now lost everything his brother and his new family friend.

Beautiful storytelling seldom seen on tv.

love & greetz from Berlin


Thanks Sabath68! I'm glad you enjoyed the episode as much as I did. It's these kinds of episodes that keep me coming back every week!
sofia
# sofia 2013-12-05 08:27
Quote:
Sofia I'm so happy reading your review, here in Germany they are all pissed off. Don't ask why because I can't understand why.

I loved this Episode it had all classical elements in it.
It was like watching a modern Shakespeare version of Richard III meeting Macbeth in a supernatural universe. All want to gain something for love or power, all well-meaning and all end up with an excuse "I did what I had to do"...

And as always the little ones loose the most. Dean afraid of letting go, now lost everything his brother and his new family friend.

Beautiful storytelling seldom seen on tv.

love & greetz from Berlin
Thanks Sabath68! I'm glad you enjoyed the episode as much as I did. It's these kinds of episodes that keep me coming back every week!
sofia
# sofia 2013-12-05 08:30
Quoting mary9930:
Oh Sofia, my heart was already breaking over GadZeke. Just the thought that he may be asked to kill Dean sends me into a downward spiral. Although it would be a powerful scene, I hate visualizing Sam's body standing over Dean- like Cas last season.


I could not agree more, Mary! And what's worse is that we have WEEKS before we see if it actually happens!
sofia
# sofia 2013-12-05 08:30
Quote:
Oh Sofia, my heart was already breaking over GadZeke. Just the thought that he may be asked to kill Dean sends me into a downward spiral. Although it would be a powerful scene, I hate visualizing Sam's body standing over Dean- like Cas last season.
I could not agree more, Mary! And what's worse is that we have WEEKS before we see if it actually happens!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-05 10:46
Quoting Ale:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.


True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-05 10:46
Quote:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.
True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2013-12-05 12:58
What if this time Sam understands Dean instead of being angry. He knows by now that Dean will always save his brother if he can, and always will.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2013-12-05 12:58
What if this time Sam understands Dean instead of being angry. He knows by now that Dean will always save his brother if he can, and always will.
Ale
# Ale 2013-12-05 13:37
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Ale:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.


True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...


Difficult to say.... I don't know about Charlie, but Cas is a pretty good guess. Dean would be devastated and possibly not in the right head to go and help Cas.

Chalie, it is possible. If she got the news about Sam, went to the bunker to cheer Dean up and snooped in the computer in order to distract Dean by giving him a mission.

There you go, Dean could have faced 3 important deaths instead of one. At this point, he would just put a bullet in his head. End show.
Ale
# Ale 2013-12-05 13:37
Quote:
Quote:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.
True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...
Difficult to say.... I don't know about Charlie, but Cas is a pretty good guess. Dean would be devastated and possibly not in the right head to go and help Cas.

Chalie, it is possible. If she got the news about Sam, went to the bunker to cheer Dean up and snooped in the computer in order to distract Dean by giving him a mission.

There you go, Dean could have faced 3 important deaths instead of one. At this point, he would just put a bullet in his head. End show.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-05 14:35
Quoting Ale:
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Ale:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.


True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...


Difficult to say.... I don't know about Charlie, but Cas is a pretty good guess. Dean would be devastated and possibly not in the right head to go and help Cas.

Chalie, it is possible. If she got the news about Sam, went to the bunker to cheer Dean up and snooped in the computer in order to distract Dean by giving him a mission.

There you go, Dean could have faced 3 important deaths instead of one. At this point, he would just put a bullet in his head. End show.


well that's a pretty depressing end to the series; hope they don't let you write the final episode. :D
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-05 14:35
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.
True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...
Difficult to say.... I don't know about Charlie, but Cas is a pretty good guess. Dean would be devastated and possibly not in the right head to go and help Cas.

Chalie, it is possible. If she got the news about Sam, went to the bunker to cheer Dean up and snooped in the computer in order to distract Dean by giving him a mission.

There you go, Dean could have faced 3 important deaths instead of one. At this point, he would just put a bullet in his head. End show.
well that's a pretty depressing end to the series; hope they don't let you write the final episode. :D
Ale
# Ale 2013-12-05 14:46
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Ale:
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Ale:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.


True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...


Difficult to say.... I don't know about Charlie, but Cas is a pretty good guess. Dean would be devastated and possibly not in the right head to go and help Cas.

Chalie, it is possible. If she got the news about Sam, went to the bunker to cheer Dean up and snooped in the computer in order to distract Dean by giving him a mission.

There you go, Dean could have faced 3 important deaths instead of one. At this point, he would just put a bullet in his head. End show.


well that's a pretty depressing end to the series; hope they don't let you write the final episode. :D


You didn't like it? I thought it was so Shakespearean.. . :lol: :-*
Ale
# Ale 2013-12-05 14:46
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.
True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...
Difficult to say.... I don't know about Charlie, but Cas is a pretty good guess. Dean would be devastated and possibly not in the right head to go and help Cas.

Chalie, it is possible. If she got the news about Sam, went to the bunker to cheer Dean up and snooped in the computer in order to distract Dean by giving him a mission.

There you go, Dean could have faced 3 important deaths instead of one. At this point, he would just put a bullet in his head. End show.
well that's a pretty depressing end to the series; hope they don't let you write the final episode. :D
You didn't like it? I thought it was so Shakespearean.. . :lol: :-*
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-05 14:49
Quoting Ale:
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Ale:
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Ale:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.


True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...


Difficult to say.... I don't know about Charlie, but Cas is a pretty good guess. Dean would be devastated and possibly not in the right head to go and help Cas.

Chalie, it is possible. If she got the news about Sam, went to the bunker to cheer Dean up and snooped in the computer in order to distract Dean by giving him a mission.

There you go, Dean could have faced 3 important deaths instead of one. At this point, he would just put a bullet in his head. End show.


well that's a pretty depressing end to the series; hope they don't let you write the final episode. :D


You didn't like it? I thought it was so Shakespearean... :lol: :-*


To be, or not to be.... screw it, just give me the gun. The end :D
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-05 14:49
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well, Kevin is dead but Cas and Charlie, and Sam, are alive because of Gad.
True but would those events have even occurred if Dean didn't make the decision he made to save Sam? I realize it's a theoretical question (no Sam, no show) but...
Difficult to say.... I don't know about Charlie, but Cas is a pretty good guess. Dean would be devastated and possibly not in the right head to go and help Cas.

Chalie, it is possible. If she got the news about Sam, went to the bunker to cheer Dean up and snooped in the computer in order to distract Dean by giving him a mission.

There you go, Dean could have faced 3 important deaths instead of one. At this point, he would just put a bullet in his head. End show.
well that's a pretty depressing end to the series; hope they don't let you write the final episode. :D
You didn't like it? I thought it was so Shakespearean... :lol: :-*
To be, or not to be.... screw it, just give me the gun. The end :D
kerinda
# kerinda 2013-12-05 20:13
Quoting amyh:
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl....dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.

Amy you have a great point thank you for saying it. and its so true he did not want this by him dying know that he could not hurt anyone or himself anymore is not wrong what is wrong is taking away his right to die. I wanted Sam to live we all do but you it was his chose and it got taking away from him is to me just wrong.
kerinda
# kerinda 2013-12-05 20:13
Quote:
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl....dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.
Amy you have a great point thank you for saying it. and its so true he did not want this by him dying know that he could not hurt anyone or himself anymore is not wrong what is wrong is taking away his right to die. I wanted Sam to live we all do but you it was his chose and it got taking away from him is to me just wrong.
novi
# novi 2013-12-05 23:39
Kerinda, please! Would you really let your beloved one die bcs you think he wants it? After all, what Dean saw, what Eze...Gadreel, the lying bastard, showed him, was just a vision. Dean couldn't be sure before he spoke to Sam about all of this in real life, face to face. All Dean actually saw was his unconcsious brother dying. All Dean felt was a horrible feeling of despair. I for one would never let go till there's a tiniest glimpse of hope. Call it selfish, this is the only possible reaction when facing the prospect of ultimate loss. Just no.
(Sorry, used so many words just to say I can't blame
Dean. If you can, you must be way more rational. And, after all, it's just a show :sigh: )
novi
# novi 2013-12-05 23:39
Kerinda, please! Would you really let your beloved one die bcs you think he wants it? After all, what Dean saw, what Eze...Gadreel, the lying bastard, showed him, was just a vision. Dean couldn't be sure before he spoke to Sam about all of this in real life, face to face. All Dean actually saw was his unconcsious brother dying. All Dean felt was a horrible feeling of despair. I for one would never let go till there's a tiniest glimpse of hope. Call it selfish, this is the only possible reaction when facing the prospect of ultimate loss. Just no.
(Sorry, used so many words just to say I can't blame
Dean. If you can, you must be way more rational. And, after all, it's just a show :sigh: )
Cat
# Cat 2013-12-06 06:08
To me, Dean letting Gadreel possess Sam was a really desperate measure he took in an emergency. Besides, I don't think Sam simply wanted to die. It doesn't seem that clear-cut. In my opinion, he chose death because he saw no other option besides a second demon deal. Sam felt that the price of staying alive would be having Dean get dragged to Hell again and going off the deep end himself as a result, so he accepted his death to prevent much worse. The moment he was told that Dean had a plan, he went along with it, no questions asked. That's why, in my opinion, Dean's initial choice to let Gadreel possess Sam isn't simply a matter of Sam wanting to die and Dean taking away his free will.
However, Dean's subsequent decision to keep Sam's situation to himself is much more problematic. If Dean hadn't decided that he should be the only one to bear the burden of keeping important secrets and making difficult decisions, things might never have gone as far as they did. If he had admitted to himself that it was too much for him to handle alone and confided in Cas or Kevin , the worst might have been avoided.
I don't think Gadreel had nefarious intentions from the start. His story is in fact quite similar to Sam's and now even Dean's. God trusted him, and he made a terrible mistake with catastrophic consequences. I believe he really tried to redeem himself by not simply using Ezekiel's name, but trying to be Ezekiel, the good angel. Unfortunately, things became very complicated and Gadreel was in over his head. When Metatron, a fellow angel, offered him an out, he took it.
Gadreel's Sam impersonation wasn't all that convincing to me. Maybe I'm reading a little too much into it, but he seemed to ask his questions like he already knew the answers. The real Sam might also want a little more details about what exactly happened. The biggest red flag, however, was the punch in the end. The only occasion I remember on which non-possessed or siren-spell influenced Sam really got physically violent towards Dean was in "When the Levee Breaks". That violence was a sign of how far off the reservation Sam had gone. I don't see the real Sam Winchester sucker punch his brother. He might yell, make a bitchface and stomp off, but he wouldn't punch Dean's lights out.
One of the reasons I hope that Sam eventually forgives Dean is that I really don't want a repeat of the scene between Gadreel as Sam and Dean. I also feel it would be more true to Sam's character. He has never held grudges the way Dean has. Besides, Dean is devastated and not likely to feel any better anytime soon, since he has never handled guilt well.Unlike Sam, who tries to redeem himself, Dean's tendency is to shut down and resort to alcohol and/ or violence. In this case, I'm tending towards violence. I feel that Sam berating Dean would just make things worse. Raging at someone who can take it is one thing, kicking someone who is already down is another.
I'm really curious to see where we go from here.
Cat
# Cat 2013-12-06 06:08
To me, Dean letting Gadreel possess Sam was a really desperate measure he took in an emergency. Besides, I don't think Sam simply wanted to die. It doesn't seem that clear-cut. In my opinion, he chose death because he saw no other option besides a second demon deal. Sam felt that the price of staying alive would be having Dean get dragged to Hell again and going off the deep end himself as a result, so he accepted his death to prevent much worse. The moment he was told that Dean had a plan, he went along with it, no questions asked. That's why, in my opinion, Dean's initial choice to let Gadreel possess Sam isn't simply a matter of Sam wanting to die and Dean taking away his free will.
However, Dean's subsequent decision to keep Sam's situation to himself is much more problematic. If Dean hadn't decided that he should be the only one to bear the burden of keeping important secrets and making difficult decisions, things might never have gone as far as they did. If he had admitted to himself that it was too much for him to handle alone and confided in Cas or Kevin , the worst might have been avoided.
I don't think Gadreel had nefarious intentions from the start. His story is in fact quite similar to Sam's and now even Dean's. God trusted him, and he made a terrible mistake with catastrophic consequences. I believe he really tried to redeem himself by not simply using Ezekiel's name, but trying to be Ezekiel, the good angel. Unfortunately, things became very complicated and Gadreel was in over his head. When Metatron, a fellow angel, offered him an out, he took it.
Gadreel's Sam impersonation wasn't all that convincing to me. Maybe I'm reading a little too much into it, but he seemed to ask his questions like he already knew the answers. The real Sam might also want a little more details about what exactly happened. The biggest red flag, however, was the punch in the end. The only occasion I remember on which non-possessed or siren-spell influenced Sam really got physically violent towards Dean was in "When the Levee Breaks". That violence was a sign of how far off the reservation Sam had gone. I don't see the real Sam Winchester sucker punch his brother. He might yell, make a bitchface and stomp off, but he wouldn't punch Dean's lights out.
One of the reasons I hope that Sam eventually forgives Dean is that I really don't want a repeat of the scene between Gadreel as Sam and Dean. I also feel it would be more true to Sam's character. He has never held grudges the way Dean has. Besides, Dean is devastated and not likely to feel any better anytime soon, since he has never handled guilt well.Unlike Sam, who tries to redeem himself, Dean's tendency is to shut down and resort to alcohol and/ or violence. In this case, I'm tending towards violence. I feel that Sam berating Dean would just make things worse. Raging at someone who can take it is one thing, kicking someone who is already down is another.
I'm really curious to see where we go from here.
E
# E 2013-12-06 15:45
Quoting Cat:

One of the reasons I hope that Sam eventually forgives Dean is that I really don't want a repeat of the scene between Gadreel as Sam and Dean. I also feel it would be more true to Sam's character. He has never held grudges the way Dean has. Besides, Dean is devastated and not likely to feel any better anytime soon, since he has never handled guilt well.Unlike Sam, who tries to redeem himself, Dean's tendency is to shut down and resort to alcohol and/ or violence. In this case, I'm tending towards violence. I feel that Sam berating Dean would just make things worse. Raging at someone who can take it is one thing, kicking someone who is already down is another.
I'm really curious to see where we go from here.


I am one of the fans who really DOES want a repeat of the scene between Gadreel and Dean, only this time I want it to be Sam and Dean, and I want Sam to react in any way that he chooses to: with anger, disbelief, a punch, with despair or silence, walking away or tears. Any or all of the above is fine by me.

I feel terrible for Dean, I really do. I know he feels terrible and will punish himself unmercifully; but Dean's feeling bad about how things turned out does not negate Sam's right to feel the way he feels and the right that he has to feel it despite Dean's feelings on the subject. I want Sam to feel his feelings and not consider Dean's feeling, at least for a time, as that is normal for anyone who has suffered a trauma and been betrayed. And quite frankly I am still smarting from The Mentalists where Dean does a terrible thing and then negates Sam's anger and upset by calling him a bitch and telling him to get over it and then having SAM AGREE WITH THAT! (no, no.. not bitter at all :lol: ) If Sam reacts with anger and upset it won't be "kicking Dean when he's down," it will be Sam reacting to what happened to HIM with anger and upset. Dean really hasn't got anything to do with Sam's reaction except that he is the instigator of events to which Sam is reacting. Sam's reaction should be all about Sam instead of all about Dean.

The two things I really, REALLY do not want to see in the fallout of this debaucle, is a Sam amnesia story (colossal cop-out IMHO) or having Sam THANK Dean for betraying to him, lying to him, using him as a tool, stealing his autonomy and allowing him to be used against others. Sam has a right to be upset about these events irrespective of Dean's feelings.
E
# E 2013-12-06 15:45
Quote:

One of the reasons I hope that Sam eventually forgives Dean is that I really don't want a repeat of the scene between Gadreel as Sam and Dean. I also feel it would be more true to Sam's character. He has never held grudges the way Dean has. Besides, Dean is devastated and not likely to feel any better anytime soon, since he has never handled guilt well.Unlike Sam, who tries to redeem himself, Dean's tendency is to shut down and resort to alcohol and/ or violence. In this case, I'm tending towards violence. I feel that Sam berating Dean would just make things worse. Raging at someone who can take it is one thing, kicking someone who is already down is another.
I'm really curious to see where we go from here.
I am one of the fans who really DOES want a repeat of the scene between Gadreel and Dean, only this time I want it to be Sam and Dean, and I want Sam to react in any way that he chooses to: with anger, disbelief, a punch, with despair or silence, walking away or tears. Any or all of the above is fine by me.

I feel terrible for Dean, I really do. I know he feels terrible and will punish himself unmercifully; but Dean's feeling bad about how things turned out does not negate Sam's right to feel the way he feels and the right that he has to feel it despite Dean's feelings on the subject. I want Sam to feel his feelings and not consider Dean's feeling, at least for a time, as that is normal for anyone who has suffered a trauma and been betrayed. And quite frankly I am still smarting from The Mentalists where Dean does a terrible thing and then negates Sam's anger and upset by calling him a bitch and telling him to get over it and then having SAM AGREE WITH THAT! (no, no.. not bitter at all :lol: ) If Sam reacts with anger and upset it won't be "kicking Dean when he's down," it will be Sam reacting to what happened to HIM with anger and upset. Dean really hasn't got anything to do with Sam's reaction except that he is the instigator of events to which Sam is reacting. Sam's reaction should be all about Sam instead of all about Dean.

The two things I really, REALLY do not want to see in the fallout of this debaucle, is a Sam amnesia story (colossal cop-out IMHO) or having Sam THANK Dean for betraying to him, lying to him, using him as a tool, stealing his autonomy and allowing him to be used against others. Sam has a right to be upset about these events irrespective of Dean's feelings.
Abby S
# Abby S 2013-12-06 22:16
Quoting Sabath68:
Sofia I'm so happy reading your review, here in Germany they are all pissed off. Don't ask why because I can't understand why.

I loved this Episode it had all classical elements in it.
It was like watching a modern Shakespeare version of Richard III meeting Macbeth in a supernatural universe. All want to gain something for love or power, all well-meaning and all end up with an excuse "I did what I had to do"...

And as always the little ones loose the most. Dean afraid of letting go, now lost everything his brother and his new family friend.

Beautiful storytelling seldom seen on tv.

love & greetz from Berlin



This has got to be the most brilliant comparison EVER! So true!
Abby S
# Abby S 2013-12-06 22:16
Quote:
Sofia I'm so happy reading your review, here in Germany they are all pissed off. Don't ask why because I can't understand why.

I loved this Episode it had all classical elements in it.
It was like watching a modern Shakespeare version of Richard III meeting Macbeth in a supernatural universe. All want to gain something for love or power, all well-meaning and all end up with an excuse "I did what I had to do"...

And as always the little ones loose the most. Dean afraid of letting go, now lost everything his brother and his new family friend.

Beautiful storytelling seldom seen on tv.

love & greetz from Berlin
This has got to be the most brilliant comparison EVER! So true!
Abby S
# Abby S 2013-12-06 22:18
Wow, what a heartbreaking end to Kevin.
I suspected that Kevin was going to be the one in trouble from the episode preview, I didn't expect him to die.
What really got me was his concern about Dean and that being the last thing he said. I had a flashback to Sam' death in S1, his last word uttered being his call out to Dean before being knifed seconds later. Kevin died without knowing what was going on or why, taken by surprise, by the angels that were supposed to protect him. He was their prophet. And his line to Dean "I do trust you. And I always get screwed" well, what can you say?
Plunge the knife deeper, please.
And I can't really explain why this is the case, but I was glad that Dean didn't chase after Sam in that last scene. (I don't know why I have expected him to chase him up the staircase) He turned his attention to Kevin, whom he'd finally come to see as family.
Dean has sent Cas away, gotten Kevin killed and has now "lost" Sam. Has this most recent plan backfired, or what? Poor Dean.
And, Gadreel walked off with the Angel AND DEMON tablet- any smell a deal attempt with Gadreel/Crowley coming up?
I sensed that Gadreel wasn't decided about Metatron's assassin request until he found out that Dean was "double crossing him". Not that I want to defend him, but think about it- if he's been locked up, he has NO IDEA how humans work. I don't think hanging out with the Winchesters gives an recently-releas ed-from-prison- angel" a balanced look on humans.
The ebb and flow of human emotions of this family is intense. I feel like it set him over the edge.

Questions-
Does this mean that Sam might become an angel? If he takes over, can he use the powers? Can he take over heaven? Close the gates of hell? Bring back John Winchester and Bobby from Heaven? I'm getting ahead of myself.
If Gadreel was the guardian of the Garden, does he have special powers? I also think it is ironic that Gadreel is considered "different" having made a mistake that cost the "garden". The parallels with Sam are very interesting.
Why was Gadeel insistent that Dean was going to be fine? Remember how he said when he first appeared that he still believed in Cas and Dean? Or was that all a lie too.
Damn, I wanted to like Zeke!
Lastly, a quote from Dean, S6 “When crap like this comes around we deal with it, Like we always deal with it. What we don’t do is go out and make a deal with the devil.” Oh Dean, you are so, so right.
RIP KevinFreakinSol o
Abby S
# Abby S 2013-12-06 22:18
Wow, what a heartbreaking end to Kevin.
I suspected that Kevin was going to be the one in trouble from the episode preview, I didn't expect him to die.
What really got me was his concern about Dean and that being the last thing he said. I had a flashback to Sam' death in S1, his last word uttered being his call out to Dean before being knifed seconds later. Kevin died without knowing what was going on or why, taken by surprise, by the angels that were supposed to protect him. He was their prophet. And his line to Dean "I do trust you. And I always get screwed" well, what can you say?
Plunge the knife deeper, please.
And I can't really explain why this is the case, but I was glad that Dean didn't chase after Sam in that last scene. (I don't know why I have expected him to chase him up the staircase) He turned his attention to Kevin, whom he'd finally come to see as family.
Dean has sent Cas away, gotten Kevin killed and has now "lost" Sam. Has this most recent plan backfired, or what? Poor Dean.
And, Gadreel walked off with the Angel AND DEMON tablet- any smell a deal attempt with Gadreel/Crowley coming up?
I sensed that Gadreel wasn't decided about Metatron's assassin request until he found out that Dean was "double crossing him". Not that I want to defend him, but think about it- if he's been locked up, he has NO IDEA how humans work. I don't think hanging out with the Winchesters gives an recently-releas ed-from-prison- angel" a balanced look on humans.
The ebb and flow of human emotions of this family is intense. I feel like it set him over the edge.

Questions-
Does this mean that Sam might become an angel? If he takes over, can he use the powers? Can he take over heaven? Close the gates of hell? Bring back John Winchester and Bobby from Heaven? I'm getting ahead of myself.
If Gadreel was the guardian of the Garden, does he have special powers? I also think it is ironic that Gadreel is considered "different" having made a mistake that cost the "garden". The parallels with Sam are very interesting.
Why was Gadeel insistent that Dean was going to be fine? Remember how he said when he first appeared that he still believed in Cas and Dean? Or was that all a lie too.
Damn, I wanted to like Zeke!
Lastly, a quote from Dean, S6 “When crap like this comes around we deal with it, Like we always deal with it. What we don’t do is go out and make a deal with the devil.” Oh Dean, you are so, so right.
RIP KevinFreakinSol o
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-07 10:43
Quoting kerinda:
Quoting amyh:
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl....dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.

Amy you have a great point thank you for saying it. and its so true he did not want this by him dying know that he could not hurt anyone or himself anymore is not wrong what is wrong is taking away his right to die. I wanted Sam to live we all do but you it was his chose and it got taking away from him is to me just wrong.



I think for me this is what it boils down to. I want Sam to make the choice for himself. To live or die. He has a right to choose and follow through. Obviously I want Sam to choose to live...and I'd love to see him struggle with that choice and then come to that choice. I'd love to see Dean and Sam TALK To EACHOTHER.... wy sam wants to die/live. Why Dean feels the need to go to such extremes.

I would be really really ok if Sam decided to choose to live but that he and Dean need to seperate (they decide this together). Them being together causes far too much damage to each other and to the world at large. I feel like they need a time out from the other.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-07 10:43
Quote:
Quote:
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl....dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.
Amy you have a great point thank you for saying it. and its so true he did not want this by him dying know that he could not hurt anyone or himself anymore is not wrong what is wrong is taking away his right to die. I wanted Sam to live we all do but you it was his chose and it got taking away from him is to me just wrong.
I think for me this is what it boils down to. I want Sam to make the choice for himself. To live or die. He has a right to choose and follow through. Obviously I want Sam to choose to live...and I'd love to see him struggle with that choice and then come to that choice. I'd love to see Dean and Sam TALK To EACHOTHER.... wy sam wants to die/live. Why Dean feels the need to go to such extremes.

I would be really really ok if Sam decided to choose to live but that he and Dean need to seperate (they decide this together). Them being together causes far too much damage to each other and to the world at large. I feel like they need a time out from the other.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2013-12-07 11:15
I need the nest few weeks to process all of this. So bring all the cookies, eggnog, pie, and liquor. And welcome the Winchester bros back next year. Ole!
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2013-12-07 11:15
I need the nest few weeks to process all of this. So bring all the cookies, eggnog, pie, and liquor. And welcome the Winchester bros back next year. Ole!
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 11:53
Quoting amyh:

I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

Amyh, while I agree with you that I would love to see Dean being able to see clearly the damage he does to himself and to Sam with the impossible standards he expects Sam to live up to (that they both fail at since they really don't need to beat themselves up like this) I really don't think that Dean's emotions towards Sam have ever been false - or really even deliberately condescending except in a 'big brother knows best' sort of way.

Dean really truly does need to 'save' Sam at all costs. He is so self centered about this that he can't see all the duties and sacrifices that people (including Sam, but also Cas and Charlie and Kevin and Benny) can, and will, and do, make for him and so he feels that he is nothing more than a 'grunt' in the same way that Sam has said 'I am the least of all of you'. Neither point of view is true, but the brothers believe it.

I wish I believed that the show is going to allow Sam to have some genuine emotional reaction to what Dean did and I wish that Dean would learn from what he did and try to be less of a martyr about everything as that would bring us back into a much more entertaining world. There isn't actually any evidence on show history to date that that will ever happen, but I live in hope.

Anyway, no, Dean's remorse will not be false either to Sam or to Kevin since he is well aware of how the events of the past episode have damaged them and will continue to damage Sam and because he is a good person with a lot of built up guilt (only some of it with any sort of good reason) that he doesn't know how to deal with.

It was going to be emotionally pretty easy for him when he thought Sam was angry and would take it out on him by hitting him. You could tell all along that this was what he hoped would happen it is an emotional state that Dean understands. I think that Sam's real reaction is going to cause him a lot more remorse because he can't just accept punishment for it. Instead he has to actually put out healing and try to heal a connection that is damaged. Dean calls this 'chick flick moments' and the 'love ... and love thing' that he is not good at. Man I wish I believed that he momnets we have seen over the past season and a half are leading to something like that, that really would require a fruitbasket because it would require Dean (and by extension the show and the viewers) to see Sam as a person and not a prized possession. A prized possession is really a burden because you can only protect it and worry about it, it is never going to return the favor, a person WILL (as Sam does, and Dean doesn't seem to realize).

Hopefully we will be allowed to understand exactly what Sam feels, and why, the way we have been shown what Dean feels. and why, up until this episode (and apparently continuing with his POV until at least episode 12 - which is not encouraging to be honest).

There is a lot of stuff said about 'false' and 'treacherous' and 'betrayal' said in the show, but neither brother has EVER actually done any of those things, despite how the other one (Dean) (to date, but now most likely Sam when he comes back) chooses to interpret it. But if we believe what they SAY instead of what either one MEANS then really the show becomes pretty difficult to watch.

Don't judge Dean too harshly, he means well.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 11:53
Quote:

I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.
Amyh, while I agree with you that I would love to see Dean being able to see clearly the damage he does to himself and to Sam with the impossible standards he expects Sam to live up to (that they both fail at since they really don't need to beat themselves up like this) I really don't think that Dean's emotions towards Sam have ever been false - or really even deliberately condescending except in a 'big brother knows best' sort of way.

Dean really truly does need to 'save' Sam at all costs. He is so self centered about this that he can't see all the duties and sacrifices that people (including Sam, but also Cas and Charlie and Kevin and Benny) can, and will, and do, make for him and so he feels that he is nothing more than a 'grunt' in the same way that Sam has said 'I am the least of all of you'. Neither point of view is true, but the brothers believe it.

I wish I believed that the show is going to allow Sam to have some genuine emotional reaction to what Dean did and I wish that Dean would learn from what he did and try to be less of a martyr about everything as that would bring us back into a much more entertaining world. There isn't actually any evidence on show history to date that that will ever happen, but I live in hope.

Anyway, no, Dean's remorse will not be false either to Sam or to Kevin since he is well aware of how the events of the past episode have damaged them and will continue to damage Sam and because he is a good person with a lot of built up guilt (only some of it with any sort of good reason) that he doesn't know how to deal with.

It was going to be emotionally pretty easy for him when he thought Sam was angry and would take it out on him by hitting him. You could tell all along that this was what he hoped would happen it is an emotional state that Dean understands. I think that Sam's real reaction is going to cause him a lot more remorse because he can't just accept punishment for it. Instead he has to actually put out healing and try to heal a connection that is damaged. Dean calls this 'chick flick moments' and the 'love ... and love thing' that he is not good at. Man I wish I believed that he momnets we have seen over the past season and a half are leading to something like that, that really would require a fruitbasket because it would require Dean (and by extension the show and the viewers) to see Sam as a person and not a prized possession. A prized possession is really a burden because you can only protect it and worry about it, it is never going to return the favor, a person WILL (as Sam does, and Dean doesn't seem to realize).

Hopefully we will be allowed to understand exactly what Sam feels, and why, the way we have been shown what Dean feels. and why, up until this episode (and apparently continuing with his POV until at least episode 12 - which is not encouraging to be honest).

There is a lot of stuff said about 'false' and 'treacherous' and 'betrayal' said in the show, but neither brother has EVER actually done any of those things, despite how the other one (Dean) (to date, but now most likely Sam when he comes back) chooses to interpret it. But if we believe what they SAY instead of what either one MEANS then really the show becomes pretty difficult to watch.

Don't judge Dean too harshly, he means well.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-07 13:17
Thanks eilf @28. That is a really great comment. That is much more in line with how I see all this.

I do see Dean being possessive and overly protective of Sam for sure. I've always kind of viewed it as more of a paternal thing. He may see Sam as a possession, but in a parental sort of way. He was thrust into the 'watch out for Sammy' at such a young age that he cannot seem to let Sam grow up. He feels he 'knows' what is best for Sam. That coupled with a genunine strong love and desire to have Sam at his side in this life makes it very hard (impossible) to let go sometimes. I do feel his actions are selfish at times but also equal parts love for his younger brother. I think Dean has made some strides in that regard. Not enough. Sam is still little "Sammy" to him in his minds eye, especially when he is in danger. He sees Sam on the one hand as his equal in hunting and on the other hand as his little brother who he needs to protect at all costs.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-07 13:17
Thanks eilf @28. That is a really great comment. That is much more in line with how I see all this.

I do see Dean being possessive and overly protective of Sam for sure. I've always kind of viewed it as more of a paternal thing. He may see Sam as a possession, but in a parental sort of way. He was thrust into the 'watch out for Sammy' at such a young age that he cannot seem to let Sam grow up. He feels he 'knows' what is best for Sam. That coupled with a genunine strong love and desire to have Sam at his side in this life makes it very hard (impossible) to let go sometimes. I do feel his actions are selfish at times but also equal parts love for his younger brother. I think Dean has made some strides in that regard. Not enough. Sam is still little "Sammy" to him in his minds eye, especially when he is in danger. He sees Sam on the one hand as his equal in hunting and on the other hand as his little brother who he needs to protect at all costs.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-07 13:46
Quoting leah d.:
Thanks eilf @28. That is a really great comment. That is much more in line with how I see all this.

I do see Dean being possessive and overly protective of Sam for sure. I've always kind of viewed it as more of a paternal thing. He may see Sam as a possession, but in a parental sort of way. He was thrust into the 'watch out for Sammy' at such a young age that he cannot seem to let Sam grow up. He feels he 'knows' what is best for Sam. That coupled with a genunine strong love and desire to have Sam at his side in this life makes it very hard (impossible) to let go sometimes. I do feel his actions are selfish at times but also equal parts love for his younger brother. I think Dean has made some strides in that regard. Not enough. Sam is still little "Sammy" to him in his minds eye, especially when he is in danger. He sees Sam on the one hand as his equal in hunting and on the other hand as his little brother who he needs to protect at all costs.


leah and EILF, i need to ask you guys something that relates to this. Its been spinning in my mind for years and I dont know whjat to make of this thought.

Do you - or anyone - think that on a way way subconcoius level due to Deans obsessive need to keep Sam at his side is it possibled that he makes decsions that end up where Sam needs to be saved or fixed? (fixed...not healed...I think thats telling)

That Dean NEEDS Sam to be broken so he can feed his martyr complex? His NEED for Sam to NEED him? Its just the whole Zeke/GAd thing got really out of hand and out of Deans control.

I dont think Dean has ever really lost control of a situation before. Not like this anyway.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-07 13:46
Quote:
Thanks eilf @28. That is a really great comment. That is much more in line with how I see all this.

I do see Dean being possessive and overly protective of Sam for sure. I've always kind of viewed it as more of a paternal thing. He may see Sam as a possession, but in a parental sort of way. He was thrust into the 'watch out for Sammy' at such a young age that he cannot seem to let Sam grow up. He feels he 'knows' what is best for Sam. That coupled with a genunine strong love and desire to have Sam at his side in this life makes it very hard (impossible) to let go sometimes. I do feel his actions are selfish at times but also equal parts love for his younger brother. I think Dean has made some strides in that regard. Not enough. Sam is still little "Sammy" to him in his minds eye, especially when he is in danger. He sees Sam on the one hand as his equal in hunting and on the other hand as his little brother who he needs to protect at all costs.
leah and EILF, i need to ask you guys something that relates to this. Its been spinning in my mind for years and I dont know whjat to make of this thought.

Do you - or anyone - think that on a way way subconcoius level due to Deans obsessive need to keep Sam at his side is it possibled that he makes decsions that end up where Sam needs to be saved or fixed? (fixed...not healed...I think thats telling)

That Dean NEEDS Sam to be broken so he can feed his martyr complex? His NEED for Sam to NEED him? Its just the whole Zeke/GAd thing got really out of hand and out of Deans control.

I dont think Dean has ever really lost control of a situation before. Not like this anyway.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-07 14:48
Hi Amyh@30. My feeling is that Dean needs to be needed! I don't know if it is a martyr complex so much as it is his reason for going on. After what these brothers have been through it's a wonder they haven't thrown in the towel. Dean self-worth is tied into 'protecting' Sam and hunting. The two things that keep him going. I also think Sam has things that keep him going- the "light at the end of the tunnel" (not the after- death light! :-) ) is one, the possibility of having "norma"l some day is another and his older brother are Sam's reasons IMO.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-07 14:48
Hi Amyh@30. My feeling is that Dean needs to be needed! I don't know if it is a martyr complex so much as it is his reason for going on. After what these brothers have been through it's a wonder they haven't thrown in the towel. Dean self-worth is tied into 'protecting' Sam and hunting. The two things that keep him going. I also think Sam has things that keep him going- the "light at the end of the tunnel" (not the after- death light! :-) ) is one, the possibility of having "norma"l some day is another and his older brother are Sam's reasons IMO.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 15:10
Quoting amyh:

leah and EILF, i need to ask you guys something that relates to this. Its been spinning in my mind for years and I dont know whjat to make of this thought.

Do you - or anyone - think that on a way way subconcoius level due to Deans obsessive need to keep Sam at his side is it possibled that he makes decsions that end up where Sam needs to be saved or fixed? (fixed...not healed...I think thats telling)

That Dean NEEDS Sam to be broken so he can feed his martyr complex? His NEED for Sam to NEED him? Its just the whole Zeke/GAd thing got really out of hand and out of Deans control.

I dont think Dean has ever really lost control of a situation before. Not like this anyway.


Ah, a can of worms, oh yes, let's open it .... so for me no I don't think that Dean has done what he has done as a sort of Munchausen's thing. Or at least not any more than anyone else who needs to feel that the efforts they make are understood and reciprocated. Dean seems to have put up a wall to understanding that Sam does both those things and so feels hard-done-by. If he would just stop and look at Sam and what Sam has done, what he has given up in his life to be there for Dean, he could see that, but he doesn't. So yes a lot of Dean's problems are Dean's.

I don't think he WANTS to feel like a martyr to everyone else's bad decisions. He wants things to go well and for everyone to make the 'correct' decision (ie the decision he would make) - which for him (and this isn't a bad thing) is family above everything. He just can't see that sometimes for other people AS WELL AS himself sometimes there are no 'good' decisions just bad decisions that go wrong or bad decisions that push the problem down the road and so makes them look like good decisions.

Honestly this Dean-as-a-marty r thing is so forced anyway. He had some reason to feel badly treated at the beginning of season 5 (since Sam did say some pretty bad stuff to him (and vice-versa) AND he doesn't know that his attempt to reconcile with Sam never reached him) and people falling into alcoholism and depression as he was in season 7 would be inclined to feel that way too especially when the world around him continued to say 'you have not done anything to cause all this, it was Sam (and Cas) only'.

But everything since the beginning of Season 8 has just seemed so out-of-left-fie ld that it is hard to know how to describe it except as a martyr complex. The Dean we know should be aware at this stage that Sam has always been there for him - but he says he has always deceived and betrayed him; Sam has things in his past that he could not be blamed for - and yet Dean does blame him; Sam has atoned for what he did - and yet, apparently, if Dean forgives him this leaves a problem for Dean that he can't deal with, so he doesn't.

I know that the discussion in Sacrifice supposedly fixed everything and if you feel it did then that is great, for me it didn't really fix much except to soothe Dean enough to instantly result in him making another decision for Sam (which is complicated / not so great) which, with the best of intentions has, for the first time we can clearly see, directly resulted in hurting two people close to Dean and for which no-one except Dean can be blamed (since Dean has been shown for an entire season to be all about who is to be blamed and what for - sometimes himself but mostly Sam, or his grandfather, or Cas, or somebody ...).

I think that Gadreels interpretation that Sam is a mess, but then there's the brother... is quite interesting.

But no I don't think that any of this is unfixable and no I don't think Dean is actively trying to hurt Sam, even subconsciously. I think that it is possible that if Dean can take this thing that he can clearly see he is responsible for and fix it will give him a chance to expiate all the other things he may feel guilty for (whether he is or not) and allow him to move on with his life and hopefully allow the others in his life to do the same.

In my opinion this is what I think the show has been working up to but I entirely get that I might be reading too much into it wanting so much of the damage of the past few seasons to be repaired.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 15:10
Quote:

leah and EILF, i need to ask you guys something that relates to this. Its been spinning in my mind for years and I dont know whjat to make of this thought.

Do you - or anyone - think that on a way way subconcoius level due to Deans obsessive need to keep Sam at his side is it possibled that he makes decsions that end up where Sam needs to be saved or fixed? (fixed...not healed...I think thats telling)

That Dean NEEDS Sam to be broken so he can feed his martyr complex? His NEED for Sam to NEED him? Its just the whole Zeke/GAd thing got really out of hand and out of Deans control.

I dont think Dean has ever really lost control of a situation before. Not like this anyway.
Ah, a can of worms, oh yes, let's open it .... so for me no I don't think that Dean has done what he has done as a sort of Munchausen's thing. Or at least not any more than anyone else who needs to feel that the efforts they make are understood and reciprocated. Dean seems to have put up a wall to understanding that Sam does both those things and so feels hard-done-by. If he would just stop and look at Sam and what Sam has done, what he has given up in his life to be there for Dean, he could see that, but he doesn't. So yes a lot of Dean's problems are Dean's.

I don't think he WANTS to feel like a martyr to everyone else's bad decisions. He wants things to go well and for everyone to make the 'correct' decision (ie the decision he would make) - which for him (and this isn't a bad thing) is family above everything. He just can't see that sometimes for other people AS WELL AS himself sometimes there are no 'good' decisions just bad decisions that go wrong or bad decisions that push the problem down the road and so makes them look like good decisions.

Honestly this Dean-as-a-marty r thing is so forced anyway. He had some reason to feel badly treated at the beginning of season 5 (since Sam did say some pretty bad stuff to him (and vice-versa) AND he doesn't know that his attempt to reconcile with Sam never reached him) and people falling into alcoholism and depression as he was in season 7 would be inclined to feel that way too especially when the world around him continued to say 'you have not done anything to cause all this, it was Sam (and Cas) only'.

But everything since the beginning of Season 8 has just seemed so out-of-left-fie ld that it is hard to know how to describe it except as a martyr complex. The Dean we know should be aware at this stage that Sam has always been there for him - but he says he has always deceived and betrayed him; Sam has things in his past that he could not be blamed for - and yet Dean does blame him; Sam has atoned for what he did - and yet, apparently, if Dean forgives him this leaves a problem for Dean that he can't deal with, so he doesn't.

I know that the discussion in Sacrifice supposedly fixed everything and if you feel it did then that is great, for me it didn't really fix much except to soothe Dean enough to instantly result in him making another decision for Sam (which is complicated / not so great) which, with the best of intentions has, for the first time we can clearly see, directly resulted in hurting two people close to Dean and for which no-one except Dean can be blamed (since Dean has been shown for an entire season to be all about who is to be blamed and what for - sometimes himself but mostly Sam, or his grandfather, or Cas, or somebody ...).

I think that Gadreels interpretation that Sam is a mess, but then there's the brother... is quite interesting.

But no I don't think that any of this is unfixable and no I don't think Dean is actively trying to hurt Sam, even subconsciously. I think that it is possible that if Dean can take this thing that he can clearly see he is responsible for and fix it will give him a chance to expiate all the other things he may feel guilty for (whether he is or not) and allow him to move on with his life and hopefully allow the others in his life to do the same.

In my opinion this is what I think the show has been working up to but I entirely get that I might be reading too much into it wanting so much of the damage of the past few seasons to be repaired.
st50
# st50 2013-12-07 15:29
#28 & #29 - Some of the best comments on the nature of Dean (and Sam) that I have read.
#30 - Need to be needed? Definitely yes.
Martyr complex. Nope. I don't think that's it at all.
Dean most definitely has abandonment issues, but all his issues tend to involve Sam. (and vice versa)
st50
# st50 2013-12-07 15:29
#28 & #29 - Some of the best comments on the nature of Dean (and Sam) that I have read.
#30 - Need to be needed? Definitely yes.
Martyr complex. Nope. I don't think that's it at all.
Dean most definitely has abandonment issues, but all his issues tend to involve Sam. (and vice versa)
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 15:59
Thanks ST! Thanks Leah as well! I know you and I have very different points of view on this season's events (though I don't think we are too far apart on Sam and Dean ;-) ) it is great that we can discuss it all!
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 15:59
Thanks ST! Thanks Leah as well! I know you and I have very different points of view on this season's events (though I don't think we are too far apart on Sam and Dean ;-) ) it is great that we can discuss it all!
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-07 16:51
eilf @34- Your welcome! I don't think we are as far apart as you think :-) . I don't think for one second that what Dean did was OK. Compounding it all by lying afterwards was even worse but I do understand his mindset. I AM enjoying this season much better than last season. I do understand how people want 'Sam' back. I do as well. I do think Sam has been much more present this year (in spite of the possession) and Jared's performance has been extraordinary. That is one of the big pluses for me this season! :lol:

Thank you st50 @33! :-) That was sweet.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-07 16:51
eilf @34- Your welcome! I don't think we are as far apart as you think :-) . I don't think for one second that what Dean did was OK. Compounding it all by lying afterwards was even worse but I do understand his mindset. I AM enjoying this season much better than last season. I do understand how people want 'Sam' back. I do as well. I do think Sam has been much more present this year (in spite of the possession) and Jared's performance has been extraordinary. That is one of the big pluses for me this season! :lol:

Thank you st50 @33! :-) That was sweet.
kerinda
# kerinda 2013-12-10 19:48
Quoting novi:
Kerinda, please! Would you really let your beloved one die bcs you think he wants it? After all, what Dean saw, what Eze...Gadreel, the lying bastard, showed him, was just a vision. Dean couldn't be sure before he spoke to Sam about all of this in real life, face to face. All Dean actually saw was his unconcsious brother dying. All Dean felt was a horrible feeling of despair. I for one would never let go till there's a tiniest glimpse of hope. Call it selfish, this is the only possible reaction when facing the prospect of ultimate loss. Just no.
(Sorry, used so many words just to say I can't blame
Dean. If you can, you must be way more rational. And, after all, it's just a show :sigh: )

that why people do DNR come on! watch ER! you please!
kerinda
# kerinda 2013-12-10 19:48
Quote:
Kerinda, please! Would you really let your beloved one die bcs you think he wants it? After all, what Dean saw, what Eze...Gadreel, the lying bastard, showed him, was just a vision. Dean couldn't be sure before he spoke to Sam about all of this in real life, face to face. All Dean actually saw was his unconcsious brother dying. All Dean felt was a horrible feeling of despair. I for one would never let go till there's a tiniest glimpse of hope. Call it selfish, this is the only possible reaction when facing the prospect of ultimate loss. Just no.
(Sorry, used so many words just to say I can't blame
Dean. If you can, you must be way more rational. And, after all, it's just a show :sigh: )
that why people do DNR come on! watch ER! you please!
kerinda
# kerinda 2013-12-10 20:03
Quoting amyh:
Quoting kerinda:
Quoting amyh:
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl....dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.

Amy you have a great point thank you for saying it. and its so true he did not want this by him dying know that he could not hurt anyone or himself anymore is not wrong what is wrong is taking away his right to die. I wanted Sam to live we all do but you it was his chose and it got taking away from him is to me just wrong.



I think for me this is what it boils down to. I want Sam to make the choice for himself. To live or die. He has a right to choose and follow through. Obviously I want Sam to choose to live...and I'd love to see him struggle with that choice and then come to that choice. I'd love to see Dean and Sam TALK To EACHOTHER.... wy sam wants to die/live. Why Dean feels the need to go to such extremes.

I would be really really ok if Sam decided to choose to live but that he and Dean need to seperate (they decide this together). Them being together causes far too much damage to each other and to the world at large. I feel like they need a time out from the other.

I do not know why some people do not understand he got his rights taking away from him what if your rights gets taking way from you? you want to live in pain and now with the kevin thing it going to be worst for Sam but who cares about him is all about how Dean feels right? it just sucked to be a Sam fan right now and I get bashed for saying something so I am done saying anything anymore.
kerinda
# kerinda 2013-12-10 20:03
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sams talk with Death at the beginning of the season? THIS is what he was talking about. Sam would rather die then have everything that transpired. He'd rather die then be a conduit to Metranons plans, Kevins death...and everything Dean does afterwardsl....dealing yet again with Crowly???

Sam is a selfless, hero. A good man who learned from his very serious mistakes and tried to do abd be better.. Dean destroyed that. cean Destroyed Sam.

Dean put his wants and desires above everything.

Sam could have done the same last year but he saw what he wrought before....an apocolypse, the years loss of his brothers trust and faith....of himself.

So he did nothing but grieve and hate himself and again he was told it was a betrayal and he lost his brother trust and faith.

And now Dean does it, except he hurt others anbd once again Sam gets destoryed. And Dean will expect Sam to continue tro trust him as always.

its so freakin wrong on so many levels. I hope Sam isn't swayed by Deans false remorse because we all know it wil be false and condescending.

"What I had to do" Is an excuse plain ad simple just as it was several years agi when Sam said it.
Amy you have a great point thank you for saying it. and its so true he did not want this by him dying know that he could not hurt anyone or himself anymore is not wrong what is wrong is taking away his right to die. I wanted Sam to live we all do but you it was his chose and it got taking away from him is to me just wrong.
I think for me this is what it boils down to. I want Sam to make the choice for himself. To live or die. He has a right to choose and follow through. Obviously I want Sam to choose to live...and I'd love to see him struggle with that choice and then come to that choice. I'd love to see Dean and Sam TALK To EACHOTHER.... wy sam wants to die/live. Why Dean feels the need to go to such extremes.

I would be really really ok if Sam decided to choose to live but that he and Dean need to seperate (they decide this together). Them being together causes far too much damage to each other and to the world at large. I feel like they need a time out from the other.
I do not know why some people do not understand he got his rights taking away from him what if your rights gets taking way from you? you want to live in pain and now with the kevin thing it going to be worst for Sam but who cares about him is all about how Dean feels right? it just sucked to be a Sam fan right now and I get bashed for saying something so I am done saying anything anymore.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-10 23:40
Ah, Kerinda don't worry if people disagree with you that's what we do here. Say whatever you want too! Don't feel like you're getting beat up because someone feels differently. I might not agree with you but you have every right to express yourself. We are passionate in our love for these characters!! We have all felt picked on at times. We have all felt it was a bad time to be a Dean or Sam or Cas or Benny or Charlie or Bobby or John or........ fan, at one time or another. :-)
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-12-10 23:40
Ah, Kerinda don't worry if people disagree with you that's what we do here. Say whatever you want too! Don't feel like you're getting beat up because someone feels differently. I might not agree with you but you have every right to express yourself. We are passionate in our love for these characters!! We have all felt picked on at times. We have all felt it was a bad time to be a Dean or Sam or Cas or Benny or Charlie or Bobby or John or........ fan, at one time or another. :-)
E
# E 2013-12-11 08:42
You know, I could even see Sam understanding the initial angel possession in time. Dean really was stuck between a rock and a hard place with that one, and I understood and supported his motivations with the initial act. But… hoo baby! all the lying that came afterwards, and his calling on Zeke/Gad at will, using him as a tool, really became the bigger problem IMHO. The show has been really careful to take us down this road of lies along with Dean making his actions, if not acceptable, at least understandable. I really, Really, REALLY hope that they give Sam's character the same insight and attention that they've given Dean here. Its high time we learn what Sam is thinking and how he feels. This show hasn't been good about doing that for Sam's character since season 4, when it was decided that Sam's story was going to be told "in the background" to build up the suspense of it. Well, that was all well and good at that time, but the process of doing that has gone from begin a one time thing to how they always write Sam and it has really come to hurt him as a character that we can understand and empathize with. Other than those two glorious shining moments in season 8 (The Great Escapist, Sacrifice) we've gotten so very, very little of Sam that I feel that I hardly know him any more.

I do find it somewhat ironic though, after all the outrage last season of "Sam Not Looking For Dean" and the furor that that story line created, that Sam's rationale is starting to look better and better the further we get into this year's story line. Sam not looking for Dean makes perfect sense in light of the repercussions of Dean's actions so far this year. Weird. I never thought I'd see the logic in taking Sam down that road, but it's starting to make perfect sense given what we are seeing now.
E
# E 2013-12-11 08:42
You know, I could even see Sam understanding the initial angel possession in time. Dean really was stuck between a rock and a hard place with that one, and I understood and supported his motivations with the initial act. But… hoo baby! all the lying that came afterwards, and his calling on Zeke/Gad at will, using him as a tool, really became the bigger problem IMHO. The show has been really careful to take us down this road of lies along with Dean making his actions, if not acceptable, at least understandable. I really, Really, REALLY hope that they give Sam's character the same insight and attention that they've given Dean here. Its high time we learn what Sam is thinking and how he feels. This show hasn't been good about doing that for Sam's character since season 4, when it was decided that Sam's story was going to be told "in the background" to build up the suspense of it. Well, that was all well and good at that time, but the process of doing that has gone from begin a one time thing to how they always write Sam and it has really come to hurt him as a character that we can understand and empathize with. Other than those two glorious shining moments in season 8 (The Great Escapist, Sacrifice) we've gotten so very, very little of Sam that I feel that I hardly know him any more.

I do find it somewhat ironic though, after all the outrage last season of "Sam Not Looking For Dean" and the furor that that story line created, that Sam's rationale is starting to look better and better the further we get into this year's story line. Sam not looking for Dean makes perfect sense in light of the repercussions of Dean's actions so far this year. Weird. I never thought I'd see the logic in taking Sam down that road, but it's starting to make perfect sense given what we are seeing now.
st50
# st50 2013-12-11 09:06
Quoting E:
I really, Really, REALLY hope that they give Sam's character the same insight and attention that they've given Dean here. Its high time we learn what Sam is thinking and how he feels..... ........Other than those two glorious shining moments in season 8 (The Great Escapist, Sacrifice) we've gotten so very, very little of Sam that I feel that I hardly know him any more.


E, I agree with everything you wrote. But this part.... THIS PART especially!

I've heard from some people that they never understood the Sam from early seasons, and, since season 8, they understand and like him so much more..... :o
That is something I just can not fathom. We've lost out on so much of seeing what/who Sam is.... I hardly recognize him anymore. And while I LOVE the work that Jared is doing, I MISS SAM! :cry:
st50
# st50 2013-12-11 09:06
Quote:
I really, Really, REALLY hope that they give Sam's character the same insight and attention that they've given Dean here. Its high time we learn what Sam is thinking and how he feels..... ........Other than those two glorious shining moments in season 8 (The Great Escapist, Sacrifice) we've gotten so very, very little of Sam that I feel that I hardly know him any more.
E, I agree with everything you wrote. But this part.... THIS PART especially!

I've heard from some people that they never understood the Sam from early seasons, and, since season 8, they understand and like him so much more..... :o
That is something I just can not fathom. We've lost out on so much of seeing what/who Sam is.... I hardly recognize him anymore. And while I LOVE the work that Jared is doing, I MISS SAM! :cry:
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 10:24
Quoting E:
You know, I could even see Sam understanding the initial angel possession in time. Dean really was stuck between a rock and a hard place with that one, and I understood and supported his motivations with the initial act. But… hoo baby! all the lying that came afterwards, and his calling on Zeke/Gad at will, using him as a tool, really became the bigger problem IMHO. The show has been really careful to take us down this road of lies along with Dean making his actions, if not acceptable, at least understandable. I really, Really, REALLY hope that they give Sam's character the same insight and attention that they've given Dean here. Its high time we learn what Sam is thinking and how he feels. This show hasn't been good about doing that for Sam's character since season 4, when it was decided that Sam's story was going to be told "in the background" to build up the suspense of it. Well, that was all well and good at that time, but the process of doing that has gone from begin a one time thing to how they always write Sam and it has really come to hurt him as a character that we can understand and empathize with. Other than those two glorious shining moments in season 8 (The Great Escapist, Sacrifice) we've gotten so very, very little of Sam that I feel that I hardly know him any more.

I do find it somewhat ironic though, after all the outrage last season of "Sam Not Looking For Dean" and the furor that that story line created, that Sam's rationale is starting to look better and better the further we get into this year's story line. Sam not looking for Dean makes perfect sense in light of the repercussions of Dean's actions so far this year. Weird. I never thought I'd see the logic in taking Sam down that road, but it's starting to make perfect sense given what we are seeing now.


Honestly, it feels like the writers are showing two extremes. The Sam not looking and then doing everything to the point that it makes Dean look like he thinks he's God. He decides who lives or dies and how.

I think I'd really like to see a middle ground here.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 10:24
Quote:
You know, I could even see Sam understanding the initial angel possession in time. Dean really was stuck between a rock and a hard place with that one, and I understood and supported his motivations with the initial act. But… hoo baby! all the lying that came afterwards, and his calling on Zeke/Gad at will, using him as a tool, really became the bigger problem IMHO. The show has been really careful to take us down this road of lies along with Dean making his actions, if not acceptable, at least understandable. I really, Really, REALLY hope that they give Sam's character the same insight and attention that they've given Dean here. Its high time we learn what Sam is thinking and how he feels. This show hasn't been good about doing that for Sam's character since season 4, when it was decided that Sam's story was going to be told "in the background" to build up the suspense of it. Well, that was all well and good at that time, but the process of doing that has gone from begin a one time thing to how they always write Sam and it has really come to hurt him as a character that we can understand and empathize with. Other than those two glorious shining moments in season 8 (The Great Escapist, Sacrifice) we've gotten so very, very little of Sam that I feel that I hardly know him any more.

I do find it somewhat ironic though, after all the outrage last season of "Sam Not Looking For Dean" and the furor that that story line created, that Sam's rationale is starting to look better and better the further we get into this year's story line. Sam not looking for Dean makes perfect sense in light of the repercussions of Dean's actions so far this year. Weird. I never thought I'd see the logic in taking Sam down that road, but it's starting to make perfect sense given what we are seeing now.
Honestly, it feels like the writers are showing two extremes. The Sam not looking and then doing everything to the point that it makes Dean look like he thinks he's God. He decides who lives or dies and how.

I think I'd really like to see a middle ground here.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 10:31
Quoting leah d.:
Hi Amyh@30. My feeling is that Dean needs to be needed! I don't know if it is a martyr complex so much as it is his reason for going on. After what these brothers have been through it's a wonder they haven't thrown in the towel. Dean self-worth is tied into 'protecting' Sam and hunting. The two things that keep him going. I also think Sam has things that keep him going- the "light at the end of the tunnel" (not the after- death light! :-) ) is one, the possibility of having "norma"l some day is another and his older brother are Sam's reasons IMO.


You know what? I really wish Someone would ask what Sam's definition of 'normal' is? Cause honetly? I dont know. There's very little about Sam that we know anymore. Unfortunetly its because no one bothers to ask Sam about Sam. All their knowledge of Sam is from Dean...who lets face it couldn't tell Sam from a 17 year old with no life experience...or the Supernatural books....whihc Chuck has admitted to exageration for dramatic effect.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 10:31
Quote:
Hi Amyh@30. My feeling is that Dean needs to be needed! I don't know if it is a martyr complex so much as it is his reason for going on. After what these brothers have been through it's a wonder they haven't thrown in the towel. Dean self-worth is tied into 'protecting' Sam and hunting. The two things that keep him going. I also think Sam has things that keep him going- the "light at the end of the tunnel" (not the after- death light! :-) ) is one, the possibility of having "norma"l some day is another and his older brother are Sam's reasons IMO.
You know what? I really wish Someone would ask what Sam's definition of 'normal' is? Cause honetly? I dont know. There's very little about Sam that we know anymore. Unfortunetly its because no one bothers to ask Sam about Sam. All their knowledge of Sam is from Dean...who lets face it couldn't tell Sam from a 17 year old with no life experience...or the Supernatural books....whihc Chuck has admitted to exageration for dramatic effect.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 10:46
Quoting eilf:
[quote name="amyh"]






h, a can of worms, oh yes, let's open it .... so for me no I don't think that Dean has done what he has done as a sort of Munchausen's thing. Or at least not any more than anyone else who needs to feel that the efforts they make are understood and reciprocated. Dean seems to have put up a wall to understanding that Sam does both those things and so feels hard-done-by. If he would just stop and look at Sam and what Sam has done, what he has given up in his life to be there for Dean, he could see that, but he doesn't. So yes a lot of Dean's problems are Dean's.

I don't think he WANTS to feel like a martyr to everyone else's bad decisions. He wants things to go well and for everyone to make the 'correct' decision (ie the decision he would make) - which for him (and this isn't a bad thing) is family above everything. He just can't see that sometimes for other people AS WELL AS himself sometimes there are no 'good' decisions just bad decisions that go wrong or bad decisions that push the problem down the road and so makes them look like good decisions.

Honestly this Dean-as-a-martyr thing is so forced anyway. He had some reason to feel badly treated at the beginning of season 5 (since Sam did say some pretty bad stuff to him (and vice-versa) AND he doesn't know that his attempt to reconcile with Sam never reached him) and people falling into alcoholism and depression as he was in season 7 would be inclined to feel that way too especially when the world around him continued to say 'you have not done anything to cause all this, it was Sam (and Cas) only'.

But everything since the beginning of Season 8 has just seemed so out-of-left-field that it is hard to know how to describe it except as a martyr complex. The Dean we know should be aware at this stage that Sam has always been there for him - but he says he has always deceived and betrayed him; Sam has things in his past that he could not be blamed for - and yet Dean does blame him; Sam has atoned for what he did - and yet, apparently, if Dean forgives him this leaves a problem for Dean that he can't deal with, so he doesn't.

I know that the discussion in Sacrifice supposedly fixed everything and if you feel it did then that is great, for me it didn't really fix much except to soothe Dean enough to instantly result in him making another decision for Sam (which is complicated / not so great) which, with the best of intentions has, for the first time we can clearly see, directly resulted in hurting two people close to Dean and for which no-one except Dean can be blamed (since Dean has been shown for an entire season to be all about who is to be blamed and what for - sometimes himself but mostly Sam, or his grandfather, or Cas, or somebody ...).

I think that Gadreels interpretation that Sam is a mess, but then there's the brother... is quite interesting.

But no I don't think that any of this is unfixable and no I don't think Dean is actively trying to hurt Sam, even subconsciously. I think that it is possible that if Dean can take this thing that he can clearly see he is responsible for and fix it will give him a chance to expiate all the other things he may feel guilty for (whether he is or not) and allow him to move on with his life and hopefully allow the others in his life to do the same.

In my opinion this is what I think the show has been working up to but I entirely get that I might be reading too much into it wanting so much of the damage of the past few seasons to be repaired.



For me...Sacrifice fixed nothing. All it did was open the lines of communivcation to which the boys (both of them...though Sam had a decent excuse of being comatose then being possessed) abandoned. Deans line of "You...me... come whatever" Simply feels like a line since there was no you and me come whatever. Dean cut Sam out of that equation.

There are a hell of a lot of times i feel this relationship is unfixable but I really hope your beleif that it is fixable comes to pass...without the writers throwing Sam under the Impala....i.e. not allowing him to have his own emotions/feelings.

Its my belief that Sam will know Dean did what he did out of love but I think above all Sam will be DISAPPOINTED in Dean because of the lies. That he didn't trust Sam or in their brotherhood to lay out the facts. It was always supposed to be THEM against the world. But it can't be if Sam is being precluded from everything. So what is the point of Sam hunting with Dean in that case?
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 10:46
Quote:







h, a can of worms, oh yes, let's open it .... so for me no I don't think that Dean has done what he has done as a sort of Munchausen's thing. Or at least not any more than anyone else who needs to feel that the efforts they make are understood and reciprocated. Dean seems to have put up a wall to understanding that Sam does both those things and so feels hard-done-by. If he would just stop and look at Sam and what Sam has done, what he has given up in his life to be there for Dean, he could see that, but he doesn't. So yes a lot of Dean's problems are Dean's.

I don't think he WANTS to feel like a martyr to everyone else's bad decisions. He wants things to go well and for everyone to make the 'correct' decision (ie the decision he would make) - which for him (and this isn't a bad thing) is family above everything. He just can't see that sometimes for other people AS WELL AS himself sometimes there are no 'good' decisions just bad decisions that go wrong or bad decisions that push the problem down the road and so makes them look like good decisions.

Honestly this Dean-as-a-martyr thing is so forced anyway. He had some reason to feel badly treated at the beginning of season 5 (since Sam did say some pretty bad stuff to him (and vice-versa) AND he doesn't know that his attempt to reconcile with Sam never reached him) and people falling into alcoholism and depression as he was in season 7 would be inclined to feel that way too especially when the world around him continued to say 'you have not done anything to cause all this, it was Sam (and Cas) only'.

But everything since the beginning of Season 8 has just seemed so out-of-left-field that it is hard to know how to describe it except as a martyr complex. The Dean we know should be aware at this stage that Sam has always been there for him - but he says he has always deceived and betrayed him; Sam has things in his past that he could not be blamed for - and yet Dean does blame him; Sam has atoned for what he did - and yet, apparently, if Dean forgives him this leaves a problem for Dean that he can't deal with, so he doesn't.

I know that the discussion in Sacrifice supposedly fixed everything and if you feel it did then that is great, for me it didn't really fix much except to soothe Dean enough to instantly result in him making another decision for Sam (which is complicated / not so great) which, with the best of intentions has, for the first time we can clearly see, directly resulted in hurting two people close to Dean and for which no-one except Dean can be blamed (since Dean has been shown for an entire season to be all about who is to be blamed and what for - sometimes himself but mostly Sam, or his grandfather, or Cas, or somebody ...).

I think that Gadreels interpretation that Sam is a mess, but then there's the brother... is quite interesting.

But no I don't think that any of this is unfixable and no I don't think Dean is actively trying to hurt Sam, even subconsciously. I think that it is possible that if Dean can take this thing that he can clearly see he is responsible for and fix it will give him a chance to expiate all the other things he may feel guilty for (whether he is or not) and allow him to move on with his life and hopefully allow the others in his life to do the same.

In my opinion this is what I think the show has been working up to but I entirely get that I might be reading too much into it wanting so much of the damage of the past few seasons to be repaired.
For me...Sacrifice fixed nothing. All it did was open the lines of communivcation to which the boys (both of them...though Sam had a decent excuse of being comatose then being possessed) abandoned. Deans line of "You...me... come whatever" Simply feels like a line since there was no you and me come whatever. Dean cut Sam out of that equation.

There are a hell of a lot of times i feel this relationship is unfixable but I really hope your beleif that it is fixable comes to pass...without the writers throwing Sam under the Impala....i.e. not allowing him to have his own emotions/feelings.

Its my belief that Sam will know Dean did what he did out of love but I think above all Sam will be DISAPPOINTED in Dean because of the lies. That he didn't trust Sam or in their brotherhood to lay out the facts. It was always supposed to be THEM against the world. But it can't be if Sam is being precluded from everything. So what is the point of Sam hunting with Dean in that case?
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 10:48
Quoting st50:
#28 & #29 - Some of the best comments on the nature of Dean (and Sam) that I have read.
#30 - Need to be needed? Definitely yes.
Martyr complex. Nope. I don't think that's it at all.
Dean most definitely has abandonment issues, but all his issues tend to involve Sam. (and vice versa)


Whats your opinion of the line in Slash Fiction "the guy has applications for sainthood."
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 10:48
Quote:
#28 & #29 - Some of the best comments on the nature of Dean (and Sam) that I have read.
#30 - Need to be needed? Definitely yes.
Martyr complex. Nope. I don't think that's it at all.
Dean most definitely has abandonment issues, but all his issues tend to involve Sam. (and vice versa)
Whats your opinion of the line in Slash Fiction "the guy has applications for sainthood."
st50
# st50 2013-12-11 10:52
Quoting amyh:
[
Whats your opinion of the line in Slash Fiction "the guy has applications for sainthood."


Ok... my opinion.....
It was a line. Sarcastically delivered by a Leviathan - a being who laughed at humanity as totally beneath his contempt. It was NOT a FACT about Dean. Just as the lines the leviathan mimicking Sam delivered were not the entire truth, but an exaggeration.
Both characterizatio ns were simple statements of contempt. Not to be taken as gospel interpretations of the guys.
st50
# st50 2013-12-11 10:52
[
Whats your opinion of the line in Slash Fiction "the guy has applications for sainthood."

Ok... my opinion.....
It was a line. Sarcastically delivered by a Leviathan - a being who laughed at humanity as totally beneath his contempt. It was NOT a FACT about Dean. Just as the lines the leviathan mimicking Sam delivered were not the entire truth, but an exaggeration.
Both characterizatio ns were simple statements of contempt. Not to be taken as gospel interpretations of the guys.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 11:48
Quoting st50:
Quoting amyh:
[
Whats your opinion of the line in Slash Fiction "the guy has applications for sainthood."


Ok... my opinion.....
It was a line. Sarcastically delivered by a Leviathan - a being who laughed at humanity as totally beneath his contempt. It was NOT a FACT about Dean. Just as the lines the leviathan mimicking Sam delivered were not the entire truth, but an exaggeration.
Both characterizations were simple statements of contempt. Not to be taken as gospel interpretations of the guys.


I'm confused. Because the LeviaSam said he didn't know how Sam was vertical what with 24 hr Lucifer vision. Which we all knew was true. Sam was halluciting Lucifer contantly and fans were wondering how Sam was still standing.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 11:48
[
Whats your opinion of the line in Slash Fiction "the guy has applications for sainthood."

Ok... my opinion.....
It was a line. Sarcastically delivered by a Leviathan - a being who laughed at humanity as totally beneath his contempt. It was NOT a FACT about Dean. Just as the lines the leviathan mimicking Sam delivered were not the entire truth, but an exaggeration.
Both characterizatio ns were simple statements of contempt. Not to be taken as gospel interpretations of the guys.

I'm confused. Because the LeviaSam said he didn't know how Sam was vertical what with 24 hr Lucifer vision. Which we all knew was true. Sam was halluciting Lucifer contantly and fans were wondering how Sam was still standing.
st50
# st50 2013-12-11 11:55
#46-
Yes, but that isn't ALL of what Sam was going through. It was an exaggeration. At that point, Sam was learning to ignore the hallucinations, and focus on what was real. The leviathan TOTALLY ignored how strong Sam was, and everything else about him.
Just as the leviathan in Dean TOTALLY ignored every other aspect of his personality. Dean likes sex, and knows he's attractive. Great. There's so much more to him....
I stand by my statement that those quotes were simply lines to laugh at. Just remember that to the leviathan, Sam and Dean were FOOD. Not intelligent beings to be respected - and even feared.

ETA: Sorry, that should read the leviathan AS Dean, not IN Dean.
st50
# st50 2013-12-11 11:55
#46-
Yes, but that isn't ALL of what Sam was going through. It was an exaggeration. At that point, Sam was learning to ignore the hallucinations, and focus on what was real. The leviathan TOTALLY ignored how strong Sam was, and everything else about him.
Just as the leviathan in Dean TOTALLY ignored every other aspect of his personality. Dean likes sex, and knows he's attractive. Great. There's so much more to him....
I stand by my statement that those quotes were simply lines to laugh at. Just remember that to the leviathan, Sam and Dean were FOOD. Not intelligent beings to be respected - and even feared.

ETA: Sorry, that should read the leviathan AS Dean, not IN Dean.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-11 12:23
Quoting st50:
Quoting E:
I really, Really, REALLY hope that they give Sam's character the same insight and attention that they've given Dean here. Its high time we learn what Sam is thinking and how he feels..... ........Other than those two glorious shining moments in season 8 (The Great Escapist, Sacrifice) we've gotten so very, very little of Sam that I feel that I hardly know him any more.


E, I agree with everything you wrote. But this part.... THIS PART especially!

I've heard from some people that they never understood the Sam from early seasons, and, since season 8, they understand and like him so much more..... :o
That is something I just can not fathom. We've lost out on so much of seeing what/who Sam is.... I hardly recognize him anymore. And while I LOVE the work that Jared is doing, I MISS SAM! :cry:

I have to admit it made me feel sad last night. I posted a comment with a bunch of words and ideas that described Dean as a person. These were generally agreed to and people commented that there were many more that could be used ... but at no point did anyone suggest any description of Sam in the same way. It got me thinking (though when it comes to Show my issues with this are never far from the surface) about Sam as a person. Honestly SPN has fantastic actors who can multitask, we have seen them do it! Jensen can play tough, kickass and vulnerable - we know he can! we watch him do it week-in week-out. Jared is a cheerful, thoughtful, emotional, mischievous person and we KNOW he can multitask! - so why do we only get serious/gloomy Sam? Sam can be a real person with a perspective as well as whatever the plot of the week throws at him.

We all thought we were getting through all the layers of misery to the sort of person Sam might have been before the show's pilot, or at least in season 3 or so. I am now a little worried that the fun bits of his character this season so far have been meant to be Gadreel pretending.

Last season Sweetondean wrote a journal from Dean's point of view which was very good and was well thought of because it really did sound like Dean. There was no way to write a similar journal about Sam because it would have had to be fanfic. since we don't know what Sam did and we don't really know why he did it.

We had a discussion about Dean's room and how it reflected him. We wracked our brains trying to determine what Sam would have had in his, in the end nobody knew. The show made a bigish deal about it - in an episode that was principally a Charlie showcase - where they told us (and told us 3 times in case we didn't get it) probably the one thing that everyone knows about Sam, that he is afraid to put down roots or get close to people because it will all be ripped away from him.

We saw Dean talk in depth with or at least on an emotional level with Charlie, Cas, Chrissie, Benny, Kevin, an adopted carer, random small children, ex-girlfriends, Zeke (fer crying out loud!).
Sam had some communication with Meg and Sarah (I wonder how that turned out) and FINALLY with Jody - yay for everyone's least favorite writers - y'all are right at the top of my favorites list (actually if you are jonesing for CHARACTERS and can put up with some plot holes then they have produced some very entertaining episodes over the past 2 seasons).

But how much of it was Sam at all? How are we supposed to know? It is damn easy to see when Dean is acting out of character, it would be hard to have HIM possessed, you would be able to compare it to something.

Honestly angel wars and mytharcs aside if THIS problem doesn't get solved, and soon, then I am really afraid that the core of the show (understanding both these guys and how they tick and why they do what they do) will be gone for good.

*Grabs Sam's lapels, attempts to shake him, fails, yells "EMOTE DAMN YOU!"*
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-11 12:23
Quote:
Quote:
I really, Really, REALLY hope that they give Sam's character the same insight and attention that they've given Dean here. Its high time we learn what Sam is thinking and how he feels..... ........Other than those two glorious shining moments in season 8 (The Great Escapist, Sacrifice) we've gotten so very, very little of Sam that I feel that I hardly know him any more.
E, I agree with everything you wrote. But this part.... THIS PART especially!

I've heard from some people that they never understood the Sam from early seasons, and, since season 8, they understand and like him so much more..... :o
That is something I just can not fathom. We've lost out on so much of seeing what/who Sam is.... I hardly recognize him anymore. And while I LOVE the work that Jared is doing, I MISS SAM! :cry:
I have to admit it made me feel sad last night. I posted a comment with a bunch of words and ideas that described Dean as a person. These were generally agreed to and people commented that there were many more that could be used ... but at no point did anyone suggest any description of Sam in the same way. It got me thinking (though when it comes to Show my issues with this are never far from the surface) about Sam as a person. Honestly SPN has fantastic actors who can multitask, we have seen them do it! Jensen can play tough, kickass and vulnerable - we know he can! we watch him do it week-in week-out. Jared is a cheerful, thoughtful, emotional, mischievous person and we KNOW he can multitask! - so why do we only get serious/gloomy Sam? Sam can be a real person with a perspective as well as whatever the plot of the week throws at him.

We all thought we were getting through all the layers of misery to the sort of person Sam might have been before the show's pilot, or at least in season 3 or so. I am now a little worried that the fun bits of his character this season so far have been meant to be Gadreel pretending.

Last season Sweetondean wrote a journal from Dean's point of view which was very good and was well thought of because it really did sound like Dean. There was no way to write a similar journal about Sam because it would have had to be fanfic. since we don't know what Sam did and we don't really know why he did it.

We had a discussion about Dean's room and how it reflected him. We wracked our brains trying to determine what Sam would have had in his, in the end nobody knew. The show made a bigish deal about it - in an episode that was principally a Charlie showcase - where they told us (and told us 3 times in case we didn't get it) probably the one thing that everyone knows about Sam, that he is afraid to put down roots or get close to people because it will all be ripped away from him.

We saw Dean talk in depth with or at least on an emotional level with Charlie, Cas, Chrissie, Benny, Kevin, an adopted carer, random small children, ex-girlfriends, Zeke (fer crying out loud!).
Sam had some communication with Meg and Sarah (I wonder how that turned out) and FINALLY with Jody - yay for everyone's least favorite writers - y'all are right at the top of my favorites list (actually if you are jonesing for CHARACTERS and can put up with some plot holes then they have produced some very entertaining episodes over the past 2 seasons).

But how much of it was Sam at all? How are we supposed to know? It is damn easy to see when Dean is acting out of character, it would be hard to have HIM possessed, you would be able to compare it to something.

Honestly angel wars and mytharcs aside if THIS problem doesn't get solved, and soon, then I am really afraid that the core of the show (understanding both these guys and how they tick and why they do what they do) will be gone for good.

*Grabs Sam's lapels, attempts to shake him, fails, yells "EMOTE DAMN YOU!"*
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 12:34
Quoting st50:
#46-
Yes, but that isn't ALL of what Sam was going through. It was an exaggeration. At that point, Sam was learning to ignore the hallucinations, and focus on what was real. The leviathan TOTALLY ignored how strong Sam was, and everything else about him.
Just as the leviathan in Dean TOTALLY ignored every other aspect of his personality. Dean likes sex, and knows he's attractive. Great. There's so much more to him....
I stand by my statement that those quotes were simply lines to laugh at. Just remember that to the leviathan, Sam and Dean were FOOD. Not intelligent beings to be respected - and even feared.

ETA: Sorry, that should read the leviathan AS Dean, not IN Dean.



Ahh. Yes, your right.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 12:34
Quote:
#46-
Yes, but that isn't ALL of what Sam was going through. It was an exaggeration. At that point, Sam was learning to ignore the hallucinations, and focus on what was real. The leviathan TOTALLY ignored how strong Sam was, and everything else about him.
Just as the leviathan in Dean TOTALLY ignored every other aspect of his personality. Dean likes sex, and knows he's attractive. Great. There's so much more to him....
I stand by my statement that those quotes were simply lines to laugh at. Just remember that to the leviathan, Sam and Dean were FOOD. Not intelligent beings to be respected - and even feared.

ETA: Sorry, that should read the leviathan AS Dean, not IN Dean.
Ahh. Yes, your right.
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-11 18:08
@48 -Hello eilf. I can't really say I have the same angst that some have about Sam his POV/perspective and so forth. I have always considered Sam a rich and fascinating character. I think of Sam as sensitive, sweet, introspective, intelligent, introverted, and tortured. I have never been mad or upset at Sam in all the years the show has been on. I have always understood where he was coming from even if the show didn't spell it out. Now I know that he has gotten his share of grief for some of his decisions. I think many fans (bi-bro and Dean leaning) love Sam as much as I do. I don't think he is the "bad" brother or the one who is never right or misunderstood. You know how I feel about Dean but this show is nothing without Sam. The thing I admire most about Jared is that even without a lot of deep character revelations he still conveys, in quiet subtle ways, the enigma that is Sam!

Having said that, I do understand the wants and needs of the Sam fans to have 'more' perspective and POV. I don't disagree. I think Sam's reactions to this seasons events should be made clear and expressed no matter what they are!! If the writers would let them actually talk honestly with each other that might go a long ways but these guys are just not the sharing and caring type. Especially Dean! Even though I don't think Sam seeks out friendships much (he seems to keep to himself by choice, often) it would be nice for him to have people in his life besides Dean. People he can talk to.

I just love these characters. I get frustrated and disappointed by them sometimes but flaws and all, gray areas and all, they are some of TV's all-time. best. I go back a loooong way! That we are all still excited, frustrated, angry, happy, sad, etc after 8 1/2 yrs says to me that the show is doing a few things right. I do miss the early camaraderie (though it was never perfect) of the brothers though and hope maybe we can return to that and maybe less world ending scenarios before the end of show. :-)
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-11 18:08
@48 -Hello eilf. I can't really say I have the same angst that some have about Sam his POV/perspective and so forth. I have always considered Sam a rich and fascinating character. I think of Sam as sensitive, sweet, introspective, intelligent, introverted, and tortured. I have never been mad or upset at Sam in all the years the show has been on. I have always understood where he was coming from even if the show didn't spell it out. Now I know that he has gotten his share of grief for some of his decisions. I think many fans (bi-bro and Dean leaning) love Sam as much as I do. I don't think he is the "bad" brother or the one who is never right or misunderstood. You know how I feel about Dean but this show is nothing without Sam. The thing I admire most about Jared is that even without a lot of deep character revelations he still conveys, in quiet subtle ways, the enigma that is Sam!

Having said that, I do understand the wants and needs of the Sam fans to have 'more' perspective and POV. I don't disagree. I think Sam's reactions to this seasons events should be made clear and expressed no matter what they are!! If the writers would let them actually talk honestly with each other that might go a long ways but these guys are just not the sharing and caring type. Especially Dean! Even though I don't think Sam seeks out friendships much (he seems to keep to himself by choice, often) it would be nice for him to have people in his life besides Dean. People he can talk to.

I just love these characters. I get frustrated and disappointed by them sometimes but flaws and all, gray areas and all, they are some of TV's all-time. best. I go back a loooong way! That we are all still excited, frustrated, angry, happy, sad, etc after 8 1/2 yrs says to me that the show is doing a few things right. I do miss the early camaraderie (though it was never perfect) of the brothers though and hope maybe we can return to that and maybe less world ending scenarios before the end of show. :-)
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-11 19:45
Quoting leah d:
@48 -Hello eilf. I can't really say I have the same angst that some have about Sam his POV/perspective and so forth. I have always considered Sam a rich and fascinating character. I think of Sam as sensitive, sweet, introspective, intelligent, introverted, and tortured. I have never been mad or upset at Sam in all the years the show has been on. I have always understood where he was coming from even if the show didn't spell it out. Now I know that he has gotten his share of grief for some of his decisions. I think many fans (bi-bro and Dean leaning) love Sam as much as I do. I don't think he is the "bad" brother or the one who is never right or misunderstood. You know how I feel about Dean but this show is nothing without Sam. The thing I admire most about Jared is that even without a lot of deep character revelations he still conveys, in quiet subtle ways, the enigma that is Sam!

Having said that, I do understand the wants and needs of the Sam fans to have 'more' perspective and POV. I don't disagree. I think Sam's reactions to this seasons events should be made clear and expressed no matter what they are!! If the writers would let them actually talk honestly with each other that might go a long ways but these guys are just not the sharing and caring type. Especially Dean! Even though I don't think Sam seeks out friendships much (he seems to keep to himself by choice, often) it would be nice for him to have people in his life besides Dean. People he can talk to.

I just love these characters. I get frustrated and disappointed by them sometimes but flaws and all, gray areas and all, they are some of TV's all-time. best. I go back a loooong way! That we are all still excited, frustrated, angry, happy, sad, etc after 8 1/2 yrs says to me that the show is doing a few things right. I do miss the early camaraderie (though it was never perfect) of the brothers though and hope maybe we can return to that and maybe less world ending scenarios before the end of show. :-)

Yay, Leah you are awesome, you make me feel better that we still can define Sam in some way, thank you! Now a little bit of hauling him out of his shell - by the knowledge that the world won't end (literally) if he does - and I will be all happy. :P
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-11 19:45
Quote:
@48 -Hello eilf. I can't really say I have the same angst that some have about Sam his POV/perspective and so forth. I have always considered Sam a rich and fascinating character. I think of Sam as sensitive, sweet, introspective, intelligent, introverted, and tortured. I have never been mad or upset at Sam in all the years the show has been on. I have always understood where he was coming from even if the show didn't spell it out. Now I know that he has gotten his share of grief for some of his decisions. I think many fans (bi-bro and Dean leaning) love Sam as much as I do. I don't think he is the "bad" brother or the one who is never right or misunderstood. You know how I feel about Dean but this show is nothing without Sam. The thing I admire most about Jared is that even without a lot of deep character revelations he still conveys, in quiet subtle ways, the enigma that is Sam!

Having said that, I do understand the wants and needs of the Sam fans to have 'more' perspective and POV. I don't disagree. I think Sam's reactions to this seasons events should be made clear and expressed no matter what they are!! If the writers would let them actually talk honestly with each other that might go a long ways but these guys are just not the sharing and caring type. Especially Dean! Even though I don't think Sam seeks out friendships much (he seems to keep to himself by choice, often) it would be nice for him to have people in his life besides Dean. People he can talk to.

I just love these characters. I get frustrated and disappointed by them sometimes but flaws and all, gray areas and all, they are some of TV's all-time. best. I go back a loooong way! That we are all still excited, frustrated, angry, happy, sad, etc after 8 1/2 yrs says to me that the show is doing a few things right. I do miss the early camaraderie (though it was never perfect) of the brothers though and hope maybe we can return to that and maybe less world ending scenarios before the end of show. :-)
Yay, Leah you are awesome, you make me feel better that we still can define Sam in some way, thank you! Now a little bit of hauling him out of his shell - by the knowledge that the world won't end (literally) if he does - and I will be all happy. :P