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Going into this episode, off a fantastic episode five and six, I was cautiously optimistic the trend of goodness would continue. And having seen the episode, I feel more comfortable saying that season seven is shaping up to be one of my favourite seasons so far. The Mentalists seemed like it would be more humour and mocking than anything but it had some real heart behind it as well. 

Okay, there was one thing I really, really didn't like about this episode. The Then segment. Please, dear Supernatural overlords - can this be the last time we recap the Amy-death clip? The issue has been laid to rest and I'm tired of being beaten over the head by it. 

Now, moving on to the rest of the episode - I loved it. 

Lily Dale, New York

(Fun fact: Apparently, this is a real town that really does attract a high number of "psychics").

It's been a week and a half since the pier confrontation between Sam and Dean and we don't know what exactly Sam has been up to in that time, but clearly he hasn't come to terms with anything over that period. When the boys met up in the diner Sam pulled enough bitch-faces in that short scene to fill several episodes. It isn't surprising that they ran into one another there, they might not be speaking, or psychic, but they sure think alike at times. Wasn't it a great shout-out to Missouri and Pamela when Dean mentioned "real" psychics? I really like the throw-backs to days of yore that have populated season seven so far. It's a nice way to acknowledge the roots of the show and move forward without losing what made Supernatural, Supernatural. 

The diner scene was full of fine moments that you couldn't help but laugh at. For one, the affirmation from the host to Dean, he is a "virile manifestation of the divine." It's interesting phraseology here, what with Dean being a vessel, raised from Hell by an angel, etc. But that aside, the overall effect was just funny. Then we have some great continuity in the nervous diner mentioning how much Sam and Dean "resemble" those "depraved killers" the Winchesters from two weeks back. How readily she accepts Sam's explanation that "they get that a lot" made me wonder if she wasn't doomed to be a red shirt in this episode. But no, she's just dippy for the fun. We'll later see her running a "pregnant yoga class" (a.k.a. Lamaze, Sam). Finally, we have Mr. "we can spot the law" Russian spoon bender who breaks poor Sammy's coffee stirring spoon. But hey, it's Lily Dale, after all. 

"No Future Too Grim!"

Now we meet Melanie Goldy (played by the lovely Dorian Brown), the not-psychic who simply reads people (like the Mentalist, as I understand it) and can tell from Sam and Dean's body language that they are, respectively, pissed and stressed. I like Melanie. It's been a while since a one-off character in the MOTW storyline has appealed to me the way she did. Another recall back to season one and two when just about every week I cared about these types of characters and wished I could see them again. 

Pawnshop guy Jimmy became a suspect in my book the second time Sam visited him, because he cooperated a bit too easy for my liking. In the first place when they visited Jimmy to fetch the necklace - Orb of Thesulah - I was too distracted by my excitement over this Buffy reference to be suspecting anyone. (Orb of Thesulah a.k.a. the key to re-souling the evil Angelus!) Of course, in this case it's a necklace made in Taiwan, rather than a mystical crystal ball being used as a paperweight by the librarian"¦sorry, wrong show.

"Probably should have bent those with the power of his mind."

Grandma Goldy and Amelda are soon joined by said spoon bender as victims of the crazed pawnshop owner and his pet ghost. When Mr. Russian picked up the fork and stares at its tines - I thought for sure that was going through his eye. I was wrong. Naturally, it's much more gruesome to drop his body on a number of upright utensils. Silly me.

"Family is a pain in the ass anyhow."

Camille (Rukiya Bernard) is another character that I was sorry to see meet an untimely death. When we meet her, she's putting on quite the show including a fake accent and her line about family seems apropos for Sam and Dean (and real life too, depending on the day). From her vision and security cameras, the boys are led to the Lily Dale Museum and to the Fox sisters. But not before encountering the story of the Campbell's - two "brothers" who, according to the curator are unlike most crash-and-burn sibling acts, but hey, these two were great probably because they weren't really brothers, that was code for their "alternative lifestyle" (how Meta, show!). 

Anyway, back to the Fox sisters. Here we had Kate whose speciality was levitation and death fortune and older sis Margaret, who didn't really have any mystical talent (evidently this was the false bit of the Fox Sister myth). Now, maybe I'm overanalyzing this segment but hey, that's why we write these pieces right? For (over) analysis and discussion. Two siblings, one with a "power" and one without and a clever line about how one's true gift is sometimes in taking care of others. To me, this speaks to the long standing fervour, if you will, in some fan groups who weren't satisfied with Sam having powers and Dean not. Though this episode was certainly full of laughs, it was also chock full of symbolism, subtext and nearly-outright statements to the fans. 

Ultimately, the best moment in this episode, for me, came when the museum curator quietly pulled Dean aside and asked him if he knew anyone named Ellen. She had a message for the elder Winchester: "If you don't tell someone how bad it really is, she'll kick your ass from beyond." Yes, that certainly seems like something Ellen would say - a motherly gesture wrapped in tough-chick paper. Another nice remembrance of seasons gone and a well used opportunity in the idea of a psychic town. This line reminded us, more subtly than watching Dean overtly pour booze down is neck for 40 minutes that he is struggling.  The conversation with Sam and Dean at the end didn't really seem to cover the suffering Ellen's words suggest and I hope this is fleshed out a bit more in future episodes. 

"Quit being a bitch."

The mid-episode chat between the brothers was well done. We've all been in Dean's shoes (more or less) where we've hurt someone or pissed them off and we've apologized and given them their space but they can't let it go and won't move forward. Now, before the Sam fans get their pitchforks and track me down for saying that let me add: we've all been in Sam's shoes too (more or less). I get it: he's mad and he's not done being mad yet. That said, in the context of the case, the boys work better with a rhythm between that and all the bitch faces in the world, Sammy, isn't going to help you solve the case and save the nice psychic town. So, I thought Dean was fair to call Sam on this point and I thought his address was in character, keeping with his own frustrations at the situation. 


Hearing the story about the sisters, I knew immediately that one sister was sending the visions to protect against what the other was doing. Kate's attempt at warning the boys confirmed this. Watching Dean struggling with the lighter made me think back to Damian and Barnes from the Real Ghostbusters - where they discussed how easy it was for Dean to always ignite the lighter on the first try. Not so, this time. Maybe it was unintentional, but this was another great reference. 

How long has it been since we've had an honest-to-goodness haunting on Supernatural anyways? I can't remember when I last saw them dig up a grave and burn the bones this way, so too long. We had all the classics here though: salt circle, iron weaponry, rock-salt in the shot gun. Ah, it's good to relive the classics, isn't it? 

Sam shooting Jimmy is what allowed his mad to come down over the whole Amy thing. Here was a human being (ish, I suppose) who was killing people. Sam had to put him down (though I don't know if he was actually dead or just wounded, either way - Sam shot him) to stop him from hurting others. Maybe he realized that this is what Dean did with Amy, because Amy wasn't so different from Jimmy in the killing-people department. 

"I wish I had better weeks."

We know Dean and Sam are more in sync when Sam makes a face at Dean's "boning" joke and chuckles when he threatens to beat up the host if he "affirmates" Dean again. Up until this point, Dean was cracking jokes like nobody's business, but Sam was not amused. Also, he gives Melanie and Dean some private time while he moves his stuff to Dean's (stolen, not an Impala) car (two episodes with the Impala under wraps makes me think we're in for another great montage when she comes out of hiding!). I liked Melanie all the more for her sweet manner with Dean at the end of this episode. She was grateful and also reassured him that things seemed more even-keeled between him and Sam. 

Finally, we have what is hopefully the complete resolution of this Amy thing that's been dragging on too long in my opinion. Sam thinks Dean must feel he did something wrong in killing Amy, because his behaviour has been all about guilt-suppression with the drinking and the nightmares. Dean explains that no, killing Amy was right to him in his core, but it was the lying to Sam he couldn't handle. He also confessed that he's been having a hard time since Cas with trusting anyone. I'm not really sure what to make of that, but it's sad. 

This make-up between Sam and Dean felt very mature. They got their issues out there, discussed things like rational human beings and came to terms, for the most part, with the problem. I hope this isn't the last we see of dealing with Dean's issues, because just as it wouldn't be right to declare Sam 100% sane and hallucination-free so easily, it would really be brushing things under the rug to mark Dean as his happy-go-lucky, healthy self at this juncture. Something about that line from Ellen says this runs way deeper than the Amy/lying to Sam thing (yes show, I'm talking about the Cas issue - please address it!). 

Final Thoughts

This was a very full episode: humour, enjoyable MoTW and some good character moments. As I have with the last two episodes, I thoroughly enjoyed The Mentalists. How about you?


# DmcG 2011-11-05 22:01
Loved the episode. Agree with you, good to get back to the classics.
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2011-11-05 22:16
Loved it! And I agree with EVERYTHING in your review! I am so excited for the rest of this season it's crazy. I kind of wish the Leviathon story wouldn't come back for a little while longer. These MOTW with the arc of the brothers and their past is so much more interesting to me!
# rmoats8621 2011-11-05 22:19
I loved this episode for all the same reasons that you list in your article. It didn't run all smoothly, but on the whole, it was great! I hope that the writers can continue to weave old characters throughout the present plot line. The shout outs make me smile! Also, this season has a feel of Season 1 and 2 to me and I really like it a lot.
# Ginger 2011-11-05 23:08
Loved it and was pleasantly surprised that I did, given these were new writers and the promo clips weren't all that good, IMO. I'm leary of new writers after last season, but these were winners (as was Robbie Thompson last week).

This one in particular had a real S1, S2 feel...and a salt and burn to boot. Yay.

If the season keeps going this well, I may have to apologize to SG for all the mean things I've said about her last season.
# Jasminka 2011-11-06 04:39
Hi Elle – thanks so much for pointing out the Buffy reference (with the Orb of Thesulah)… I was biting my nails thinking about where I had heard this before… I need to grovel in embarrassment now :oops: , because I have been a Buffy/Angel fan for years and didn’t recognize it. Oops.

I also loved this episode very, very much. Already re-watched it twice. The classic touch, the tender moments, the wonderfully drawn characters. For me, this was also a nice dig at the whole charlatan-esote ric scene. I have a soft spot for esoteric themes, but I despise the money makers that steal believers’ money and do so without a bad conscience. I’ve had the odd patient, you know, who was almost driven to the brink of bankruptcy. People in need, people that suffer from loss, grief, pain in all variations can be welcome victims to those people, and for me that is one of the worst faces of criminality. :-x

I also liked how the “clash” of the brothers remained so much in character – Sam being the one staying pissed (and pouting) for a while longer than Dean felt comfortable with (Sam's been like that in the past) and the manner in which Dean exposed his younger sibling’s behaviour.

As to why Dean has a hard time trusting anyone since Castiel – well… As I read this scene and the season so far… Dean has always had a problem with trusting others, has he not? He shielded his own, vulnerable soul by being wary, and he allowed himself – finally after a long while – to open up to Castiel who became the kind of family to him that “don’t end with blood”. He trusted Cas with his life and would even have died for him, if it had ever come to that in a fight, simply because that’s what family does, “the dirty work”, getting in front of the ones he cares about to protect them. The ultimate knightly gesture.

I reckon, Dean still hasn’t understood how it happened that Castiel was corrupted by the lure of power and perhaps even scolds himself for not being able to protect Castiel from it – by opening his eyes to what was happening, by finding the right words… When Sam got "seduced" by the power of demon blood, Dean had not been able to find the right words to reach out to him in time. I’m sure, deep in his mind he still reproaches himself and regards that as a personal failure. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that Dean believes to have failed his friend and brother in arms, Castiel, and that these thoughts are eating at him.

Furthermore – after risking to trust Castiel as much as Dean was able to and experiencing this horrific development, it might well be that Dean doubts his own insight and judgement. He is ailing from the loss of a dear friend, still.

To my mind, right now Dean is withdrawing again in order to not “fail” again in that department (and I'm sure there are also more reasons) – to not make a fatal mistake, to not lose someone again, to not feel a failure. My heart goes out to him, because he is also shutting out the one closest to him, for perfectly understandable reasons: love. To me, Dean wants to protect Sam from the turmoil in his troubled soul, because he doesn’t want to set off the time bomb that Sam seems to be to him. The underlying emotion is fear. I believe that Dean has rarely been more scared in his life (perhaps while he was watching Sam succumb to his powers or being afraid that Sam would say yes to Lucifer...). And terror, unfortunately, is a mean, devouring emotion. I wouldn’t want to be in Dean’s shoes right now. And I pray that this wonderful lad will be able to do what Ellen told him. Now, Dean, be a good boy and do what mummy says, eh :-) ?

Best, Jas
# Junkerin 2011-11-08 05:16
Where is your couch?
# Jasminka 2011-11-08 13:30
Junkerin, thank you for this sweet miss-you :-) -message. I'm touched.

I left a message on my writers page, but I take it you haven't seen it.

For various reasons I had to take a break in writing. I'm glad to be able to comment occasionally, but I don't know at this point when and if I'll be capable of coming back to write for this site.

Thanks, Jas
# Kaj 2011-11-06 07:37
Great review Elle! And agree to jasminka. One thing I want to add. I keep imagining lucifer whispering to Sam's ear not to trust Dean for that week and a half of separation. Whispering all bad things about his brother, of how Sam should stay away from Dean. How was Sam not keeling over in his alone time speak loudly of his trust in Dean. It's hard to be rational with satan whispering in your ears. Jasminka said that Dean has problem in trusting his own judgement right now, I think so is Sam. He has trouble trusting his own judgement on things, of right and wrong of real and illusion. What's with Lucifer vision keep twisting around his logic and playing devil's advocate. So he set Dean as barometer, an example. Although he knows that Dean also has issues of his own but who else can Sam trust right now? Many comments said that Sam's too soon to forgive Dean. My take is that he has to forgive Dean. Sam's jumbled up inside. He cant afford to stay angry because Dean keeps him sane. It's good that Sam is back with Dean because who knows what lucifer makes him do if he is alone for longer.
Ah, these poor boys are damaged. It'll take a long time for them to heal.
# Marilyn 2011-11-06 09:48
Another great review, Elle. :-)
I definitely agree with what you and all the others who have commented about what a great episode this was. It was a terrific homage to the first season's salting and burning episodes. :lol:

I loved the character of Melanie (and Camille; I had a daughter-in-law who was part of the "Cleo" over the phone network a while back). Melanie was so in synch with Dean; it was great. If he was in a better place, something might have happened there.Didn't you love the way he stood up when Melanie came to the table?

I thought the message from Ellen was great and heartwarming. I hope Dean takes it to heart. But did you see his face when Melanie tried to thank him and he replied that he hadn't saved her friend. (still very glass half-empty and guilt-feeling)? :sad: I love what Melanie said to him in reply; hope it
got through.

The end was very satisfying to me as I didn't find it too quick or convenient as I have read in other posts.I loved that before Melanie came to the table, Sam was making his amused," but really?" faces at Dean's comments to the waiter and about the emporium owner.I am glad the guys have matured from the runaway- and- pout- forever and the hitting- in the- face days.It has been 7 years since they hit the road together. In order to keep true to their mission they have to deal with issues in a more mature way. I feel for them, as the museum guide said, it must be terribly hard to work and live with the same person 24/7.On the flip side, if it is someone you admire and care about, it must have really great moments as well.
A both thumbs up to the episode.

(On other sites, it has been noted that although the orb's name is similar to the one on Buffy, it is not the same. It references a Greek witch).
# Jasminka 2011-11-06 09:57
Oh, really, Marilyn? It's not the orb mentioned on Buffy? Well, how easily one can be mistaken...
Thanks for sharing this "news" :-) Would you happen to know to which witch it refers to? (I love mythology and history, so I'd love to know... :-* )
Take care, Jas
# Marilyn 2011-11-06 12:38
Hi Jasminka,

It was really close: Buffy's was the Orb of Thesulah and 2 people on twitter have said that Jim Michaels confirmed the pendant on SPN was the Orb of Thessaly referring to a witch in the Sandman comics. Thessaly is in Greece, right? So I am making the assumption it was a Greek witch. I could be wrong. It has happened before. :o

I enjoy mythology, too.

Good to hear from you; I hope your health is improving. Having had a rough patch after a botched surgery six years ago, I know it can be tough and discouraging. Best wishes. :-)
# Jasminka 2011-11-06 14:43
Thanks, Marilyn! Indeed, Thessaly is a (very beautiful) region in Greece. I'd say your assumption is correct :lol: .
Even though we probably will never know for sure, I like the idea of a Greek witch messing around overseas...

Thank you for your kind wishes, dear. I am sorry to hear about your surgery. I do hope you have recovered well!
Best always, Jas
# CitizenKane2 2011-11-06 10:40
Thanks for this enjoyable article. :) I agree with most (if not all) of what you said, and I thought it was a great episode, coming off last week's quite wonderful Slash Fiction.

Particularly, "The Mentalists" had a very strong Season 1 vibe (in a good way), and yet it integrated very well what has gone before. I agree that the Ellen reference was one of the stand-outs (among many stand-outs) in this episode :)
# Sylvie 2011-11-06 10:56
Thanks for the great review Elle, I agree with everything you said. I loved the episode, actually I'm about to watch it for the fourth time now! To Hell with housework, SPN comes first.
# Marilyn 2011-11-06 12:40

Amen to that! Although, I am putting off grading student papers. :eek:
Traci B
# Traci B 2011-11-06 13:20
Okay, I loved this episode as well, but I have to ask... Am I the only one that thought the last couple of lines were flat?
# Bevie 2011-11-06 13:33
Thanks Elle!!

This was wonderful to read after reading Mo's. I am through reading hers as I don't have enough years left to waste for depressing negativity.

Loved everything about this episode and this season is fast becoming one of my favourites along with seasons 1 to 3. Love the boys, no matter what season though and will never desert them as long as they keep saving and hunting.

It was wonderful to see Dean getting thanked for what they did. It's been so long since anyone has thanked them and I have really missed that part of the shows the past 3 years. :sad:
# Sylvie 2011-11-06 16:13
I'm with you on that Bevie. Life is too short for negativity. Besides I am loving season 7 so far, and it's only just beginning. It reminds me so much of season 1. I too will never abondon this show, I live for Fridays!
# Jasminka 2011-11-07 00:32
Hello Bevie, I second your opinion! I read Mo's review, too, and found it appalling. For a writer who apparently desires to be looked at as a professional she gave an unfortunate display of un-professional ism. But that's just me. I see the bumps on the road, too, but I'd never use a tone like that. But, well, that's just me, too...
I still believe in our show. How could I not? ;-) , Jas
Mimi Rosen
# Mimi Rosen 2011-11-06 14:43
I really enjoyed your review, observations and tone. A lot of good humor in this ep. I too appreciated Ellen's advice. I was hoping the show could find non-drinking ways to reveal Dean's level of stress. Kind of reminds me of last week when LeviSam made clear that Sam's struggling with the satanvisions more than he's letting on. Thanks for a pleasant read.
# nancyL 2011-11-06 15:10
Elle, now that Sam and Dean have spoken about the whole Amy thing, maybe your wish will be granted and we will longer have to see that clip.

We had Missouri, Pamela and Ellen mentioned in the same episode, you are right, in SPN there are always callbacks to past characters and events.

Sam and Dean were all over the news a couple of weeks ago as serial murders, it is nice that someone actually was paying attention. I think that it would be cool if every episode, someone came up to them. But, I also think that it may get annoying after a while.

Of course the 'spoon bending' takes us back to 'Nightmare'. I wonder what happened to Sam's 'abilities'. Are they gone with the death of the YED, even though they returned in season 4 with the demon blood? Enquiring minds, want to know. :D

Is it me, or doesn't the actress that played Melanie kind of look like the actress that played Sarah in "Provenance'?

Why get impaled by one fork, when you can get impaled by the whole set. :D

Ellen gives tough love from beyond the grave, what is there not to love. :-)

When Dean was having trouble with the lighter, I was like WTF, Dean lost his baby and now he's lost his trusty lighter powers. Damn. :lol:

I agree that Sam had every right to be mad at Dean for keeping secrets but Sam has kept a few secrets of his own over the years (demon blood drinking, return of Ruby, magic hand powers) and those have been worse that killing a monster behind Sam's back.

It is nice to know that the classic ways of dealing with dead things still apply, even if they are of no use against the Leviathen,

I agree Elle, after Sam shot Jimmy, I yelled at the tv, 'see sometimes you have to kill humans'. That was definitely Sam's 'aha moment', and when he realized that his big brother may have been justified in killing Amy.

When Sam put his stuff in the not!Impala, I knew that he had forgiven Dean and they were once again on the same page (yeah). It wasn't the killing Amy that was bothering Dean, it was the lying to Sam. I had a big grin on my face at the end, because they were a unit again. :D

Bevie, I just finished reading Maureen Ryan's criticism of 'the Mentalists' and OMG was she watching the same show that we all saw? All season long she has been complaining about the episodes and saying that she may stop watching SPN. Good, because her reviews lately have been full of venom. I have been reading her reviews for a couple of years and this week is the last one I will read because I do not like the way she is attacking the show.

But I loved this episode and I love this season, so take that Maureen Ryan, 'Chuck' is returning go watch that.
# elle 2011-11-06 20:53
Hi All,
Thanks for your comments and reading. I'm glad I wasn't the only person out there who liked this episode.

Regarding some of the negitivity out there, for whatever reason it's bothered me more than usual. While I firmly believe in everyone's right to their own opinion, whatever it may be and their right to express that, tastefully and respectfully, some of the things I've read about this episode (and/or season overall) from various sources have been, frankly, awful, if not upsetting. I've had my issues with season seven, to be sure but I am left wondering what show some people are even watching. Last year with season six I found it was nice to take a break from analysis and discussion (fun though that is!) and just watch the show to watch it. It made a rocky season much simpler and less difficult to navigate. Maybe some people (who, as I it see have to be actively looking for nitpick nasties to pull out and wave around as evidence of some pre-decided theory they'd developed) need to take a step back and have a breathe, or two.

Hope I don't offend anyone with that comment - no names will be names and to be clear, I don't read Mo Ryan's reviews so despite mention of that specific piece on this forum that is not what my comments are directed at. Just the air of negative energy in general.

Moving on:

Auntzukie - The things people have said about Dean and his behaviour in this episode - I honestly don't see it at all. Bossy, insensitive, manipulative, emotional black mail - no, sorry. I agree, Auntzukie, that this may be inspired by viewer bias in one form or another (whether it's because one is more inclined to a particular brother or because one can relate to the position of one brother on this issue more, or something else entirely) I agree, these last few episodes have struck a particular chord with me as well. I'm hoping this continues to be a trend in the remainder of the season.

Ginger: yes, if this season continues on trend, season six will become a distant memory....

Jas: the Buffy reference was very exciting for me. Even though it wasn't technically a Buffy a reference. Don't feel bad for not recalling it immediately - spotting links between my favourite shows/actors/fi lms is a little hobby of mine so I'm always on the look out. Plus, I think I've seen the complete series of Buffy only about 30 or 40 times in my life- so far.

The brothers were very in character here, I agree.

You have some good insights into Dean and his comment about trust, etc. I am hoping we'll explore this more in coming weeks!

Marilyn - thanks for the information on the Buffy reference. I wasn't sure if I'd heard correctly so a quick (but apparently inaccurate) Google confirmed what I thought I'd heard. Oh well, it made me smile nonetheless!

CitizenKane2: it was a great melding of past and present in this episode, wasn't it?

Sylvie: Supernatural is always my priority, haha! To heck with the essays I should be writing - the Winchesters are on!

Bevie: Season 7 is going to be one of my favourites too, I can already see that taking shape. Also, nice catch with the thank you. It has been a long while since they were thanked, I suppose. I hope it reminds them of why they do what they do.

Traci_B: I didn't find the final exchange flat, per se, but rather a more mature approach to the way Sam and Dean usually hash out their issues. But then, I'm holding out hope that the show will properly address the core issues individual to Sam and Dean beyond the chats we've had briefly at the end of a couple episodes. If not - then yes, I will retrospectively be disappointed in this exchange.

SeaSPN: Thanks! I'm glad it was a good read. I try, haha. Not watching Dean tip a bottle into his mouth every 2 minutes was a nice change. Different ways of letting us know the Winchesters are off kilter make me hopeful we're in for some good payoff in the future.

NancyL: I hope that's the end of the Amy clip. But I've been saying that for about 3 weeks now, so we'll see. Continuity is always good in my book so the recognition from the news was a nice touch in this episode. Thanks for your comments!

Thank you to all for your comments and for reading. I will do my best to keep future reviews as non-negative as possible. I love this show very much, so that shouldn't be to hard. After all, I even had love left for Smallville at the end, and I wasn't that big a fan for most of that run!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2011-11-07 03:25
If wonder if those who feel it appropriate to criticise Maureen Ryan on here have contacted her to let her know their concerns. I believe that Ms. Ryan has a comment section where readers can give their opinions and I’m sure she would appreciate knowing why people think she has ‘fallen off the deep end’ or why her comments are ‘full of venom’ and ‘appalling’ ? If people haven’t seen fit to let her know their concerns, would that not be the more honourable thing to do as opposed to doing the online equivalent of whispering behind someone’s back by coming onto a different site and denigrating the woman and her opinions without even giving her the common courtesy of telling her why?

In relation to her opinion, does posting an opinion that does not concur with the majority view somehow make her opinion less valid or her concerns less worthy? Not everyone enjoyed the episode, and they all have their own reasons why they didn’t. I hated it. I feel I have reason for hating it and I’ve given those (what are for me, at least) valid reasons. But because my opinion is not popular I’m now wondering if it will be met with the same level of derision that Mo Ryan’s has been subjected to or will the opinion itself be given as much consideration as those who loved the episode, and then either agreed with or (more likely) disagreed with based on its content, not its theme.

It’s a very difficult thing to post an unpopular opinion but (for me) it’s easier than being a liar and claiming you loved it when you didn’t. But honestly Elle, you’ve just made it much more difficult to express a true opinion, when you evidently think that those who disliked the episode are merely ‘.... actively looking for nitpick nasties to pull out and wave around as evidence of some pre-decided theory they'd developed.’ Wow. With one sweeping statement, you’ve just trivialised the concerns and fears of all those who don’t see things the way you do. Elle, your comment did more than just offend me.

Very often those who post concerns about an episode are not looking to ‘nitpick’ or create ‘negative energy’ but are actively looking to be proven wrong, to have their concerns alleviated or just to be reassured that their fears will not be realised so that they can enjoy the show as they once did. However, your dismissive attitude has pretty much ensured that this will not happen as evidently; we are only looking for flaws.

Thank you for the utterly condescending manner in which you’ve treated us. To merely be told that we are wrong for thinking what we think and feeling what we feel, without even being given the consideration of having the reasons why explained, and instead of being offered the support that has been accorded to others in the past we are told to 'take a step back and have a breath'.

Well, we have now surely learned our place.
# elle 2011-11-07 06:23
Hi Tim,

I apologize if my comment did offend you. Maybe I wasn't as express in my comment as I intended to be (it was very late when I wrote that) - I'm not saying that the opinions on the episode are wrong at all - as I prefaced my statement - everyone is entitled to their view. I guess what I was trying to say is that maybe some people who are so upset with the show or who can only see negative things it anymore need to step back.

As the comment that some people are looking for things to pick at: that wasn't intended to be a sweep up of everyone who disliked the episode. I didn't want to elaborate because I didn't want to single out any particular view point there, which is maybe why you feel personally offended by it and I truly apologize for that. I guess what I was trying to get at is that people who come to watch the show who are in the frame of mind that the whole thing is crap now, are going to, likely, going to be looking for and finding evidence that it is. And honestly, I'm sorry but somethings I've read (not here, for the record and I said I don't read Mo Ryan so I'm not refering to her either) have felt a bit nit picky. There are also those out there who have explained their dislike well, without it coming across as just a mean diatribe. For example, your comment here, though I can tell you are not happy with me at all, is still expressed eloquently and without hate.

Tim, I really didn't mean to suggest you were wrong to have your opinion or to be condescending. I had read some things about the the episode and show in general and the comments were so full of hate that it was upsetting. I guess what I'm getting at is that it's one thing to express your opinion, but it is (at least I think so) another thing entirely to simply be inflamatory or mean or negative, for the sake of it.

Once again, I apoligize for any offence, condescension or trivialization of opinions not in favour of this episode, Tim. It wasn't my intention.
# Jasminka 2011-11-07 10:57
I, on the other hand, dear Tim, would appreciate your courtesy of assuming that some people actually might have contacted Ryan before you dismiss anyone as dishonourable. Thank you.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2011-11-07 13:03
I'm assuming that, Jasminka. That's why I used the word 'If' in my post, more than once.
# Jasminka 2011-11-07 13:11
Aha. Really.
# Fluffles 2011-11-07 18:14
Could not have said it better myself. Lets face it the ones bitching about Mo Ryan are Dean fans who don't like the fact that Mo called Dean out on his behaviour. She had genuine reason to do so as did she have genuine reason to question the quality of writing this season. She doesn't deserve to be bashed for her opinion nor does it give the right for every pissed off Dean girl to call her an extreme Sam fan just because she didn't like the way Dean was portrayed in one particular scene.

I have noticced one thing about this episode Dean girls loved it because Dean was shown to be right and he got to yell at Sam, while Sam was again shown to be wrong and to have finally be out in his place? For what I dont know.

Sam girls mostly hated it because Dean was basically a dick to Sam but in the end it was Sam the one apologising and again being shown to be wrong.
# elle 2011-11-07 19:28
Hi Fluffles,

I'm not sure if you are directing the thing about Mo Ryan at my comment or not, but in the event that you are I need to reiterate, that I have not now nor have I have read Mo Ryan's SPN writings and I cannot comment one way or another about it.

I won't get into a Samgirl v Deangirl thing here, but that superficial bickering you allude to in your comment has been my main problem with the negative comments towards this episode (for the record, I'm not calling your comments here superficial, but rather that you've picked up on the bickering too). One thing to have legit concerns and express them passionately, but constructively (take Alice's review of this episode for an example) but it's another thing to turn it into a "fangirl" war.
# Marilyn 2011-11-07 19:48
If wonder if those who feel it appropriate to criticise Maureen Ryan on here have contacted her to let her know their concerns. I believe that Ms. Ryan has a comment section where readers can give their opinions and I’m sure she would appreciate knowing why people think she has ‘fallen off the deep end’ or why her comments are ‘full of venom’ and ‘appalling’? If people haven’t seen fit to let her know their concerns, would that not be the more honourable thing to do as opposed to doing the online equivalent of whispering behind someone’s back by coming onto a different site and denigrating the woman and her opinions without even giving her the common courtesy of telling her why?
As the person who said I thought Ryan had "kind of fallen off the deep end", I am personally offended by your comments.
I certainly do not think of myself as a dishonorable person.
Firstly, she is a professional critic who publishes her reviews on the internet. I do not believe it is the equivalent of whispering behind her back to make a comment relevant to what I am posting on another site.I am sure she can take the criticism or she would not be in the business.
Secondly, I post on this site and this site only, because I have found it a safe place to share my thoughts and read what others have said. Just as I do not agree with what everyone else says, I do not expect them to always agree with me.
However, I have not felt attacked for expressing my thoughts before. I hope this does not become a place where I don't feel it is ok to express my opinion.
# elle 2011-11-07 20:01
Hi Marilyn,

I'm sorry that my comment seems to have snowballed something here and you (and others) are personally offended as a result of the direction things have gone. It certainly wasn't my intention. I tried to be selective with my words to avoid offending anyone/be as respectful and constructive as possible and it seems I fell a bit short of that goal.

I don't think anyone on this site should feel they can't post their opinion and I hope you don't feel that way. Alice has done a wonderful job of keeping this a safe haven for all well-expressed opinions. I suspect this is why, when I ventured beyonded the safe and hallowed pages of the WFB I was so upset by the things I saw. Lesson learned and I'll be staying close to home now.

Hope to continue hearing from everyone in the comments!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2011-11-08 07:14
Marilyn, if you felt offended by my comment then for that, I do apologise.

Just to be clear though, at no stage did I say that you were a dishonourable person. My issue was with what you said, not who you are.

However, I stand by my opinion. I feel that the act of posting an opinion about a person (not their post) on a site they quite possibly do not frequent and are so unable to defend themselves; is not on. But that’s just me. It was not an attack on you Marilyn, I’d think the same thing if Mother Theresa and Gandhi were doing it. I just know how I’d feel if someone took a comment I posted here and used it to post a judgment about me elsewhere. It might not bother you, hell, it might not bother Maureen Ryan but it bothered me and it was on that, I gave my opinion. Perhaps I'm sensitive to things like that, but that's just me.

Regardless of that Marilyn, for the offense I caused you and anyone else, apologies. And rest assured, this place is as safe to post your opinion as it ever was.
# Jasminka 2011-11-08 13:11
I'm glad you are able to take a step back here. Your comment sounded very much like you were self-righteousl y dismissing people (and I am among those who objected to Ryan's review and told her, too) as behaving dishonourably wholesale. And that was offensive. Jas
# Alice 2011-11-07 20:07
Okay guys, enough. I'm not going to call anyone out here and say no one is right or wrong. We all have our opinions. Elle as a reviewer is most rightly entitled to hers, and dissent is okay, although I would prefer it be done respectfully.

Mo Ryan is a friend of mine. I can honestly say that she very very much loves this show. As a TV critic, she speaks her mind because that is her job. If it comes across emotionally, it's because she very much cares. She doesn't expect people to agree with her. She, just like we do here though, expects people in their disagreement to behave like adults. That's hard at times, I know. Believe me I know. This show, I don't know what it is, but it evokes a certain kind of passion that you just don't get with shows like CSI or House. It's quite special.

I suggest that everyone settle down, and leave this part of the thread be for now. All points are well noted.
# LA 2011-11-07 00:25
Old school Supernatural! This episode had me scared and it's been along time since an SPN episode did that. Great episode!
# Fluffles 2011-11-07 18:20
Sorry that should be put in his place
# Marilyn 2011-11-07 21:43

No need to apologize. Really.
# Marilyn 2011-11-07 21:46

Did that sound strange? I meant there is really no need for you to to apologize.
# Marilyn 2011-11-09 21:36
I accept your apology. However, I think we will have to agree to disagree about this and move on.