Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 11.01 “Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire”
The episode focuses on two story threads that the season ten finale left unloosed: the release of the Darkness and Castiel’s attempted murder of Crowley. The story breaks off into three separate narratives. We see Sam and Dean in the wake of the Darkness, Castiel huddled in a rural farmhouse, and Crowley’s escape.
The episode spends a majority of its time on Sam and Dean.
She tells them that the road crew killed the family and that something is going on. They take her to the hospital to get stitches and find it abandoned and in upheaval. As Dean tends to the Sheriff, Sam investigates and comes across another road crew member trying to get to the room with a baby crying. The guy dies suddenly and Sam gets the man to open the door. We meet Mike and his infant daughter at this point.
We move to a farmhouse scene with a man and his two sons, who find a dead dog. The ramshackle building at the edge of the farm is housing a rabid eyed Castiel, who recalls killing Crowley but he realizes Crowley escaped. His flashback is interrupted when one of the sons opens the door and holds a gun on Castiel. Cas warns him to run away. He doesn’t want to hurt the kid but he may not be able to stop. He runs away as the family shoots at him. When Castiel finally finds himself on the run and in danger, he prays to heaven to be stopped.
In Crowley’s escape he finds the body of a middle aged married woman who is about to be involved in a swinger party. He indulges in the orgy before killing the woman’s husband and the other couple. His demon minions (deminions?) find him and chastise him for having the sex before calling for help. Crowley, being Crowley, doesn’t apologize.
Back at the hospital, we figure out that Mike is infected with the Black Throat Disease (BTD) and he hands over his kid to the Sheriff to protect. Dean wants to go guns blazing against the rest of the BTDs, but Sam stops him. They argue but Sam says that they’ve lost their way. That “Hunting Things” is only half of the bumper sticker. He convinces Dean to take Jenna and the baby away while he plays decoy to the BTDs. Castiel calls Dean, who wants to know what happened. Castiel assures him that he’s fine but he wants to make sure the mark is gone and that Sam knows Rowena is loose with the Book of the Damned. The call gets cuts short before Castiel can tell them anything about the Darkness because the angels have arrived to fetch him.
Sam finally convinces Dean to take the baby and he leads the BTDs on a chase. Dean and Jenna run into a rabid Mike, who tries to attack but holds off enough to whisper that the child’s name is Amara before seizing and then dying.
Sam confronts a BTD and decapitates it but not before getting the blood in his mouth. He is infected. Other BTDs barge in and are about to choke him but they smell him and stop. They walk away, leaving him there.
In a cellar or warehouse somewhere, the angels have led Castiel, who thinks he’s being brought back to Heaven for punishment. Instead, they chain him and we sense there is torture on the way. Crowley, who gets his real Scottish form back, is informed by his deminions that the Darkness has been released. At first he scoffs but then the deminions tell him that something happened in the cage, that one of its occupants is trying to tell them something. Foreboding feelings ensue.
At the conclusion of the episode we get one of the final flashbacks that we saw throughout the episode of Dean talking to the Darkness. She tells him that they are connected. Their interaction is very tense. She shows him that she is wearing the mark, that she helps him like he helps her. They will always help each other. This is important because at the end of the episode we will see Jenna tending to the child, Amara, who wears the mark on her shoulder. The baby is the Darkness. (We can delve into that metaphorical pool in a discussion board later…)
Thoughts and Discussions:
1. That was a great episode, right? Welcome back, Supernatural. Happy 219th episode!
2. What do you think the connection between Dean and the Darkness is?
3. Who is yelling from the cage?
4. What are the angels going to do to Castiel?
5. Where is ROWENA?????
6. Why did the BTDs leave Sam after smelling him? Is it a clue or does Jared Padalecki just smell that good?
Leave your thoughts, feelings, and other emotions here.
Well first off a Big Thank you for being on twitter during this first Ep. It was like having a friend to watch the show with. Second I am more uptight now then I every was during Hellatius :(:(:(:(
WOW WOW WOW Welcome back Boys in a big way I think we are gonna have the best season in ages
2. Dean’s connection to the darkness is just the mark I hope , she or it feels thankfull to Dean for releasing her and she also said she will protect Dean ?? and Dean won’t kill her /it their is a underlying story here
3. Who is yelling from the cage I say Lucifer because he had or has more to do with the Darkness then Michael
4. It looks like tortue for Cas but why ?? they have had plenty of time to repremand him over everything, or maybe they are looking for Metatron. It could be a way of curing him from the spell
5. No Rowenna jet not surprised I think they had enough going on in this ep without adding Rowenna Once thing6s settle they will search for her — she’s not far
6. Two theories on this one 10 he was already infected so why bother or Sam’s demon blood is still in him so they think he is already one of them Demon Blood for me
What a season openner Sam & Dean talking still somewhat angry at each other but a work in progress. And story lines going everywhere. As Sam said “Hunting things” is only half of it “Saving People” is the other half. Eventually back to basics and balance for the Boys
Thanks, Jen! It’s great to be back for another season!
I’m speccing that the cage yell may be both because they were both warriors in the fight against the Darkness. Wouldn’t it be cool if, like Sam and Dean, Michael and Lucifer have to unite against a common enemy instead of each other? I mean that may be too deep for this show but that was my first thought when the line was said.
I think the BTDs left Sam alone because he has something special about him….either demon blood or the fact that he is a vessel?
Loved it all but thought the Crowley orgy scene was clumsily written and the orgy participants stereotypical and a bit clownish. If they were going for humorous or shocking then they lost me. The scene felt crowbarred in. Good to see evil Crowley back tho. Having said that the only other thing I felt was off was Sams speech to Dean. So he tells Dean we have to change, hunting things is only half of the bumper sticker, they need to save the infected… and Dean stands down and says okay, what do you want to do, and then Sam’s idea is to split up to buy Dean/Lady Cop/Amara time to get away? Where is that “saving people”? Granted it keeps Dean from gunning down everyone in sight and refocused him on getting his charges out of there instead but if Sam was referring to saving others himself, all he did was split them up. Did Sam think the cure was in the hospital? They should have all booked out of there. So infant Amara must grow with the speed of a fruit fly going by the earlier picture of a twenty something sporting the MOC in the same spot as the baby. Dean told Sam The Darkness talked to him, but as the episode progressed it was clear she said even more than he let on to Sam. Is he just now remembering, more little by little? Interesting connection with the Darkness, it almost sounded like she was part of Dean or in his head. Her statements “I like it here with you.” and “Am I saying that, or are you?” Sam’s going to have to let Dean know about his predicament too. Overall I thought it was a really good episode. Definitely excited to see more! Final thought. When is Cas going to learn to stop trusting his brethren??? Time travel back to tell Cain to shove the MOC up his ass!!! Good line.
I couldn’t agree with you more about that orgy scene. The people were just silly caricatures. Perhaps Sam was simply saying we need to change our overall outlook on plowing down what were once humans and focus on saving them instead. I don’t think he was planning on finding a cure that night, just using himself as bait so that Dean could get them out of there without more bloodshed. So he could later ‘do what he does’ and research the hell out of that problem. In hopes of maybe saving some of them later? I don’t know really but that was how I tried to look at that scene because the idea that Sam was going to fend off veinies and find a microscope and find a cure when he has no medical knowledge makes no sense at all.
Leah,
I tend to agree with you regarding the Sam and cure bit. I think it was the episode and perhaps the season trying to reframe Sam as the “gray” thinker again, gesturing back to early seasons when he was the one who tended to argue against an absolute reaction – the kill or be killed mentality; although I will say that this neglects that Dean was also that way (remember Jus in Bello when he refused to sacrifice an innocent even for the greater good). Also, I think the show should be careful with establishing this dichotomy again. These men have encountered too much to be regressed to simpler frames of mind. In other words, yes we need to save people but sometimes they can’t be saved; and yes, we need to kill monsters but sometimes monsters can be saved. I think it will all depend on how they forecast the Darkness/Dean connection and how that interacts with the show’s motto of Hunting things, etc. I also can’t escape the anvilish Croatoan nods in this episode, all the way down to a hospital, a supernatural disease, and a brother speech. Again, I’m optimistic for much of the season but I will be tentatively weary of how they proceed.
I know what you are saying but I think it was meant to say they BOTH had gotten to the point of shoot first, worry about the human vessels later or not at all. They can’t save everyone as they both have said but the victims/vessels have slid way down on their priority list the last few years. It’s all about the hunt or surviving. I think they will both feel better about themselves if they remind themselves of that original mission statement.
I think Dean was Rambo because he was compelled to protect the Baby.
Dean was against status quo lazy season too. He’s definitely off now.
I think she is in his head and their conversation is ongoing.
What Sam said made no sense because he says he would do it again and, release the, Darkness to save Dean, and of course he kills one of the infected minutes later, infecting himself. I think it was an emotional outburst because he feels guilty of all of the death his actions caused. Those zombies are going to infect more. Hanging in a closet does nothing. Establishing perimeter and saving the uninformed is actually saving lives… , Sam has a long way to go but at least he feels responsible.
[quote]Having said that the only other thing I felt was off was Sams speech to Dean. So he tells Dean we have to change, hunting things is only half of the bumper sticker, they need to save the infected… and Dean stands down and says okay, what do you want to do, and then Sam’s idea is to split up to buy Dean/Lady Cop/Amara time to get away? Where is that “saving people”? Granted it keeps Dean from gunning down everyone in sight and refocused him on getting his charges out of there instead but if Sam was referring to saving others himself, all he did was split them up.[/quote]
Think it was two part, the idea of them splitting up. Sam says Dean has to let him do what he does – let him be responsible for his thoughts and actions. Dean jumped on being responsible for saving that baby, become responsible for the actions that put it in danger. Them going through the crowd, Dean would have acted as if he was responsible for getting Sam, the baby and the cop out of the hospital no matter the blood shed. If that is to stop Sam has to put into actions something that stops Dean doing that – he has to put himself on the line and be the only one responsible for it so not let Dean act as if it is on him, but in part the only one that can do that is actually Sam he has to act as if he is responsible for his thoughts and actions and not bring it back to Dean making him. Less angry ‘I only did that to save you’ to last season to ‘I did it to save you and I’d do it again in a second’ and ‘this isn’t on you’ this one.
Also if they split they have double the chance of dealing with it. Dean gets the kid out and can go for outside help. Sam stays and deals and may get more information regarding what exactly they are facing with the infected. Together it is one plan, apart but getting what the other is doing 2 possible plans of attack as neither know if the other will make it.
As for Dean being connected to the darkness, think that means that it would be Lucifer screaming as it would make sense as he would have been the last one to actually physically deal with her as he had the mark too. Also it may tie into why he rebelled, he was marked with it, it was part of him and he became darker and rebelled, Dean has always had a darkness in him and is continually told things are his fault and now he is connected with the darkness itself – future foreshadowing?
And last question – were the infected actually evil or the last form of plug against the darkness? They were after the baby. To save it or kill it? She told Dean that he wouldn’t hurt her and in the end he played a huge role in getting her out into a world without the infected where as Sam is now infected and is due to start getting visions that may not be evil. Just saying.
Had the same thought about the infected and the baby. I think it’s more complicated than we saw last night.
It does seem more complicated.
Personally I’d like it if the idea with Michael and Lucifer was that God created Michael to kill the Darkness as he was the first archangel but Lucifer his little brother came up with the mark and infected and prison to stop his big brother from having to do that. The when Lucifer became evil, Michael held onto the cosmic idea that it was predestined to stop him feeling guilty that it was Lucifer protecting him by making and taking on the mark was the possible start of the root cause of Lucifer’s evil. That Dean will fight the darkness within and Sam will try and stop him from succumbing to it by not letting Dean feel that he is responsible for everything and having his own agency by not being so tunnel visioned but in the end even with Sam trying to put the darkness back in its prison Dean will do what Death would have done – fulfil the natural order even if it means in the end killing a baby because that is his past be he one that does the unpalitable and be the older brother that stops the darkness like Michael was to supposed have done before being stopped by his little brother.
I get it, it’s just in this case if you think about it, it really didn’t make much sense. They had no idea what they were up against let alone how many, they could have gotten both to safety, regrouped and then returned to face the rabids together. They have collectively seen enough movies to know that doesn’t end up well. Romeros Night Of The Living Dead, 28 Days… Besides like you said the Darkness had already told Dean she was not going to let him get hurt. And you’re right he did protect her and get her out of the hospital into the world, although unwittingly. 😉
I’m not so sure about the cage screamer being Lucifer. That’s the one I automatically thought of too. Is it too obvious tho? Maybe it was Michael. There could be an interesting twist coming. I do like the idea of activity from the cage in that manner. I personally don’t want to see either of them this season tho. 😉
I’m not sure being up against something they knew would have caused them to act any different. It was the numbers that would also factor in and the fact they were trying to save an injured cop and a newborn and not a police station full of people who could also fight. That would change things – splitting up and one acting as a diversion would mean the vulnerable cop and baby may have a better chance as he’d be pulling them off their tail. Also Dean could get out and come back. If they were after the baby so determinedly that Sam wouldn’t have worked as a diversion he could have gotten out and come back with help. As for the darkness telling Dean she wouldn’t hurt him – does he trust that? Did he remember it at the time even if he did? Plus you got Sam’s guilt about the darkness and him trying to stop Dean feeling responsible for everything which means he has to take action on his own.
As for Lucifer being the screamer, I’d like to be that as it would also help explain why Dean is tied to the darkness too. Lucifer screamed as he knew it was out as he had previously had the mark. As for the cage hoping the idea that it has been mentioned and the whole saving everyone means that Adam may have a shot of getting out of the cage.
At this point we don’t even know if there is any real connection between the woman Dean saw in his vision and the rabids. And just because she won’t hurt Dean doesn’t mean that she won’t hurt anyone else, including Sam or that baby. At this point we don’t even know if the baby and the lady in the Dark are friends or foes or even two facets of the same thing. We don’t even know if the lady in the dark IS the darkness, the baby might be the darkness. Splitting up was absolutely the right call. Dean and the deputy only encountered one rabid, while four more chased after Sam. One on one is good odds, five to two, not so much.
Splitting up was not a good call. He accomplished what? He killed the rabid nurse (Oops! One down out of the people he wanted to save), it got Sam infected, the others wandered off to die or infect more and then die. How is that a successful outcome based on what he wanted? Dean and company got out but they would have gotten out regardless had Sam not pulled the save everyone card. They had no idea what they were up against, how many rabids there may have been even without counting the ones that drove up. Sam went in blindly. No backup. Strategically it was a dumb move. In this case using Sam’s new “We are the world” rules Dean, the cop and Amara were lucky and got away but that still doesn’t mean it wasn’t unnecessarily risky based on what little they knew about what they were facing. I’m amazed Dean went along with it.
[quote]Dean and company got out but they would have gotten out regardless had Sam not pulled the save everyone card.[/quote]
And this assertion is based on…..? It’s true that they did not know the situation, but it made sense to get out of there before more carloads of infected pulled up. What they did know is that one group of them were towards the front of the hospital. So Sam’s diversionary tactic maybe was the best chance of ensuring that the other three got away safely. Dean was there to protect them but in the event of an attack it would have been impossible for the deputy to run while holding the baby, much less to fight back. Seemed like a good plan to me, if the ultimate goal was to keep the baby safe.
The baby is the Darkness. My guess is that she sent Dean to save it. He drove towards it and ended up at the hospital.
Did you notice too that Dean was prepared to kill anyone and anything that stopped him from saving the baby. He was very focused on it. Like adamant about saving the baby no matter what. I think you are right. I think the D is in Dean’s head and is sending him to do her work. Next ep Crowley indicates the baby isn’t what she seemed. So far a great set up for the season I think.
Very focused on the baby. Not enough to change her tho! HA.
And most intriguing is how The Darkness told Dean that they are bound, that she (they) would always help (each other) out no matter WHERE I am or WHO I am. Such an interesting set up. So many different directions to take this.
Well the Darkness said nothing about helping her with nappy rash!
As for direction, I don’t think that Dean knew he was saving the darkness if she had sent him to Superior. Think a bit of it was about Survival mode. He’s Dean he’s feeling guilty, he knows the baby and the cop aren’t infected by something that is only in the world because of something he feels responsible for, he’s just killed Death. He isn’t an angel or has Sam’s research smarts so he forcuses on what he can do – protect the vulnerable he can see, which means fighting his way out as he needs to be moving forward and save something or he is going to crack.
But the story itself does open up many ideas especially if the baby isn’t conscious that it is the darkness. If not she is an innocent and we don’t know the Darkness’ agenda. For all we know it is simply what you get when you try to create the universe – opposite of life so to speak. God in the show is actually pretty much a douche so while not good, the Darkness maybe an evil that isn’t as bad as they are painting out as it isn’t its fault what it is and it isn’t out to deliberately hurt anything unless they go after that.
It doesn’t know Death and was imprisoned when there were only God and archangels and probably the Levi’s so probably wasn’t around when there was life around – so has never actually killed outside self defence. Though for all we know the Levi’s were God’s first throw of the dice about creating something to go after the Darkness and who wouldn’t be cranky at the guy who sent those after you. I’m saying this because as I asked before if the rabids with the darkness or the last line of defence against it?
But that aside it does put a lot of questions – kill the kid is practical if it is the darkness, but we’ve had kids with powers before, Jesse the antichrist and Emma the amazon. One took himself off the board because he got a good upbringing and didn’t want to hurt people (and may be due a return as he is the only thing more powerful than heaven and hell) and the other was killed before she hurt anyone and had a bad upbringing. If raised right would baby darkness actually want to be good? I know in the promo we saw Crowley mention something about eating souls but is it a thing that is consciously doing or not? If it is can it control it if it wants too? I doubt Dean is going to become Daddy and Sam is going to be baby proofing the bunker but could it be raised not to hurt anyone?
PSG, it isn’t what the baby is that is the question – are the infected there to kill it or not.
If they are then can you say the infected are really evil and not simply a defence system to prevent the Darkness from getting out as the darkness would be weak once getting out of its prison. All the infected were for killing everything they can get their hands on that weren’t infected but had a defined time line seeing how they dropped dead (thanks for making sure the infected won’t be a dropped storyline like the Croats). Or are they an evil with a completely different agenda than we’ve seen before.
If Dean has been subconsiously sent to get the baby, then it is more likely that the infected and the smoke was put in place to try and stop the darkness getting too far once out of its prison as without help that baby would be dead.
Or there is another idea is that the baby was the closest kid born at the time the darkness got out and is now meant to be a ‘saviour’ hence it is also marked with the MoC and the darkness sent the infected and Dean to kill it and Dean didn’t play ball. Having the idea that Dean and the darkness not being able to hurt each other but at odds would be interesting and give Sam something interesting to play off of. Personally think it was that the baby and darkness are meant to be the same person but hey I can dream the writers are trying something different and trying to send us down a different alley – personally don’t want suddenly aging syndrome to hit the show.
Alycat22,
I had a few issues with the dialogue, especially that hospital scene. I think it read contrary because it was Sam asserting that he would always save Dean but then chastising them both for that impetus. But again, we do have to remember that Swan Song, for example, was based on the idea that Dean finally let Sam sacrifice himself. The problem with this theme, in my mind, is that it’s an “endgame” theme. In other words, this type of choice has to be reserved for a climax and denouement of a story and with Supernatural continuing on ad infinitem, the theme reads as redundant and destructive. I understand they wanted to insert the catchy, “Hunting Things is only one half of the bumper sticker,” but it could’ve been done in a more nuanced way in my opinion.
The infant Amara arc is interesting because it harkens back to the idea of possession in my mind. Was she born or did she leave the mark on a living baby? That question throws the person of Mike into question as well and also makes me question whether the BTDs are her allies or foes because they road crew guy was desperate to get to the baby.
I was a little frustrated with Dean kind of lying by omission regarding the Darkness but I think that’s par for the course for themes between the brothers. Eventually it will be revealed and we’ll have to tackle why Dean is not telling the full truth. Is it shame at feeling connected to this being? Is it simple instinct to keep quiet until he knows more, like a detective? Did she say more that we’ll find out about?
The Crowley/Castiel scenes are always problematic in the first few episodes the last season or two because they have this separate stories but there is not enough time to fully develop them. It’s the challenge of this show since it’s not an ensemble and hence struggles with plotting and structure once it moves out of the core brother narrative. It’s time management, basically. And honestly the Crowley scene, while amusing to me, felt more like a “hey let’s have Crowley be a woman and have an orgy, hardy har har” rather than a significant plot progression and in the premiere it needed more gravitas, especially for a character that has struggled between being really evil and buffoonishly simple. As for Castiel, the show really should focus on allowing him to evolve as an intelligent being. That prayer scene was poignant and delivered well by Collins but then they undermined it with the continuing caricature-ness of heaven and angels.
Just some thoughts…
I think the orgy showed that Crowley is still tainted by humanity and it affects his choices.
Cas deserves what he gets from the angels for breaking out Metatron and helping Sam to remove the Mark. And Rowena powered up with two powerful magic books can be spell an angel. There’s serious, world crumbling issues because of Sam and Cas .
I am behind in my reviews because of health issues however the gold scene in Angel Heart brought up the fact that the last time Cas broke with heaven to follow Dean he was a hero by stopping the Apocalypse. That dialigue was not a filler. This time he and, Sam are not heroes. They unmade creation. It’s horrible. People will die. Cas deserves to be tortured and killed for that. I say this, as Castiel’s Cat.
Tortured and killed? That seems a little extreme. Cas has sacrificed heaven before to save Dean (The New Boss). I don’t think he deserves death.
I am with Cheryl on this. Tortured and killed? That sounds pretty harsh. None of the characters are above reproach for their actions through the years. They did what they did to try and save Dean. The results were disastrous, what else is new?
Really good opener. It was exciting and set up a lot of mysteries for the season that I want to see unravel. It has my attention. I loved the fact that the boys are TALKING. Hallelujah. Addressing issues instead of falling back into old habits. YAY Sam! Yay Dean for stopping to actually listen. Also no blaming just acknowledging they both had a part in all this. Love that so much. Hated the people in the orgy scene, ridiculous, but a very minor quibble with so much to love. OK …
1. Great. Absolutely.
2. MoC, some psychic bond of some sort.
3. [edit to change answer] Lucifer, due to something Mark P said on twitter that I forgot.
4. The implication is that they are going to torture him but why? If they wanted to do that why not before this?
5. Don’t know, don’t care, she is up to witchy business I imagine. I didn’t miss her much this episode. I want to love this character, not there yet.
6. I think they sensed he was becoming one of ‘them’ and they saw the veins I thought. Maybe not. Well either way they knew.
Sam trying to save the towns people by being a diversion. Typical Winchester move and Dean was able to get away with the deputy and the baby and the people didn’t get killed in the process.
If the baby is the Darkness she will have to grow up pretty quickly or a whole season of watching a baby is going to get kind of tedious.
I loved that they went with Jensen’s idea about one of them missing from the Impala.
Really Dean you are already lying? Or are you remembering a little at a time. If he doesn’t come clean I will be disappointed.
So Dean is still connected to the Mark and the Darkness is going to protect him. And Dean is going to protect her. So is she bad or really really bad.
Lucifer or Michael (or both) screamed from the cage. Vessels?
Sam at least found out how people were getting infected…the hard way.
I hope Sam figures out a cure fast because Dad seemed to succumb pretty quickly.
I liked the speech from Sam to Dean about the bumper sticker. A lot of fans have felt the same way for a while now. Let’s save people too not just hunt things and save each other.
Yeah the Crowley orgy scene was so out of place.
Cas called on his angel brethren? I don’t quite understand that. Why would he think they would help him? Wouldn’t Sam and Dean be able to help find a witch? At least they don’t hate him.
The episode did keep my attention and as usual it worked best when it was focused on the brothers. It was a good first part to a two part episode.
I’d give it an 8.5. Points off for the orgy.
Really? Dean lying? I didn’t hear Sam say anything about the fact that he was infected when Dean asked him over the phone how he was. It goes both ways. Or maybe it doesn’t. Carver did say “Ish”
I just rewatched and found that I hated the orgy scene even more this time. Was it supposed to be a coincidence that Crowley possessed the meatsuit of someone about to become a newbie swinger? On her birthday, and as her present, no less. Carver that kind of writing is unworthy of your talent. Surely you could have done better. For a moment there I thought I was stuck in a Nep Duo episode.
I really think Dean not spilling about the D may be that he is remembering in bits and pieces. I wish that was made more clear. Dean did seem to have a confused look on his face as he was remembering in the last scene. But I will be disappointed if Dean doesn’t tell Sam what the D said to him.
Sam hung up the phone then looked in the mirror. So I suppose he didn’t know for sure he was infected. But I suppose it could also be that if he had told him Dean would have jetted back to him and not gotten the baby to safety. Hard to say.
The orgy scene was beneath Carver’s writing wasn’t it.
Since this is a two parter I suppose we will find out more next week.
Hi Alycat and Cheryl. Dean seemed to be disoriented and confused from the moment Sam found him. I tend to agree he seems (to me) to be remembering in fragments. I don’t expect them to instantly change their ingrained habits of keeping something secret so as to not worry the other. There were so many good signs in this episode. No blame flinging. Willingness to rethink their previous approaches. I didn’t mind that was was an orgy scene just that the people were lifted from a bad sit-com in their dumb behavior. It wasn’t funny or clever IMO. And did Crowley kill them when it was over? Hilarious.
I think she may be talking to Dean in his head all along. It’s hard to say.
He’s under the thrall of a powerful supernatural force. He will have to fight to regain himself.
.
Geez, Sam had been exposed to rabid blood for all of five minutes when Dean called and probably didn’t even know he was infected. He doesn’t even get a chance to recover and get over his shock and people are already calling him a liar.
No liar but going by the logic that Sam didn’t know he was infected when Dean called to see if he was alright, why, when he looked in the mirror after the conversation had ended and saw that he was indeed infected, did he not call Dean back immediately and inform him of it? Secret Keeping. Dean: 1. Sam: 1.
I’m sure she will be aged quickly, ala the Amazon child in season 7.
I think the cage angle has a lot of potential. These would be the warriors who fought in the war against the Darkness. They were God’s soldiers, back in the day.
Who did Sam save. There was no one I the hospital but him. Some of the infected had time to infect others. He was willing to sit and let them die. He wasn’t researching. He didn’t try to help the uninfected. I wonder if it was a suicide move. He wanted to die by Darkness because it was his fault.
Well, I would have thought it was obvious that he helped save Dean, the deputy, and the baby by creating a diversion. Remember that part where he yoohooed to the infected to attract their attention and get them to follow him? Twice? That wasn’t just Sam being friendly. That cleared the path for Dean and the others. So yeah, he helped save them.
Good point he’s suicidal because of what his actions wrought. One heroic moment before dying. It’s kind of Dean ain’t it.
Not sure where you get suicidal. Sam had watched that other infected try, and fail, to get into a utility room. What he was trying to accomplish was just what he told Dean- allow the others to get to safety while he distracted the infected without simply blowing them away. You know, the “saving people” part of things. In that sense he was not much like the Dean of late, who has mostly been a blast to smithereens first, ask questions later kind of guy. But you are absolutely right that Sam was being heroic. That has always been an intrinsic part of his character, as evidenced throughout the 10 years of the series.
Sam&Dean: As I stated In my comment below: Smack in the middle of an unknown threat/crisis situation is not the time to reassess their hunting techniques. They had no clue what they were up against or how many. If Dean had been the one to come up with this plan instead of Sam, I’d still be calling it the same way. Reckless and unnecessary.
In the interests of saving time (since I have to go to work soon:() I will refer you to my reply to your comment somewhere up yonder.
Do you really think that Sam is suicidal? That has been done already (Swan Song, Sacrifice). I don’t think Sam wants to die. I think Sam and Dean do what they always do. Try to clean up the mess they made. What good can they do if they are dead.
I don’t think after everything that Sam would leave Dean knowing that The Darkness is reaching out to him like it is. I also think Sam is bound and determined to try and fix the mess they have found themselves in. So I for one do not think he is suicidal.
And the rabies still died. And Sam killed the rabid nurse. Why was all that even necessary? If Sam’s whole plan was to keep from killing the sick, then his plan sucked and he got himself infected to boot. Dean’s get out by going through made more sense in the long run. Kill them all, let God sort them out. It’s brutal but they get out alive. Smack In the middle of an unknown threat/crisis situation is not an appropriate time to reassess their hunting priorities.
I don’t think that was the point of the scene. I think there will still be more infected that need to be cured including Sam. And to be fair Sam had no choice. He was attacked after all. Not much time to find a cure while you are fighting for your life.
The point that Carver is trying to make I believe is that the brothers need to start saving even the ones that might seem hopeless. And Sam’s plan sort of worked. Dean got the baby out and he didn’t kill any of the innocent along the way. Doesn’t mean that some won’t still die. But at least they aren’t the ones doing the killing.
Remember in Sam Interrupted when Dean told the fake doctor in his head that all of the people needed to be saved and he was the one that needed to do it? Those are the times I miss. When Sam and Dean would do anything to save innocent people. Even Sam knew that he had to change too. He said it. He would do it again. And that thinking is what got them there in the first place. I was with Sam and the script. They needed to change right now. Not fall back into the same act first regret later vicious cycle they have spinning around in for too many years.
Dean also admitted his role in taking on the Mark to begin with. I was so with him when he wanted to go back in time and tell Cain to shove that Mark up his ass. Me too Dean me too.
It was a conversation that needed to happen and I hope the first of many.
Realistically what cure did Sam think he might find in the hospital? They had no idea what they were even up against. It made no sense. It would have been more logical to get through as Dean stated, take the kid and cop to safety and return. Sam didn’t need to get infected for a win, even if they do find more rabids later. If the cure is Sam himself because he is naturally immune (maybe a carryover from the Croatoan virus) then it will turn out to be the one good thing but regardless it was a stupid plan that was unnecessarily reckless. You want to rethink the way you approach things? Don’t do it in the middle of a threatening situation/force that no-one on Earth, Heaven, and apparently only Hell knows anything about. Lousy timing for introspection. Not a good moment to have a crisis of consciousness.
Since this is a two parter I assume we will find out what the cure is. Sam isn’t going to die so I suppose a cure is around somewhere.
I don’t think Sam’s plan was to get infected. I think his plan was to distract the infected so that Dean could escape. As Sam saw when they first went into the hospital the “zombies” couldn’t break through the locked doors. Who knew someone was hiding inside. Evidently not Sam.
But other than Sam getting infected his plan worked. Dean, deputy formerly vampire girl and baby got away. And Dean didn’t have to kill any innocent people to do it. It would have been a great plan except that Sam always forgets that he has the worst luck in the universe.
Oh yeah. Sam was immune from that virus way back. Perhaps he cannot die from the Darkness infection. If so he’d either be stuck in a constant struggle over the infection and himself or completely loose himself to the infection.
Sam never said he was going to hit the lab and find a cure. He just wanted time to assess the situation before blowing away every infected they met. They know nothing about the infection, whether it’s temporary, whether the infected can be reasoned with or resist it. In fact, the dad was doing a pretty good job of resisting it before he croaked. Like Cheryl says, Sam (along with many viewers) want the brothers to get back to the approach of trying to save people. How is that a bad thing?
I think the point that Carver is trying to make with Sam’s speech to Dean and his subsequent action to act as a diversion is one that fans have been clamoring for. The brothers tend to do more harm than good in continuously mowing down innocent people in order to save themselves or each other. At least my take on Carvers script is that the brothers are going to go back to “saving people” not just hunting things. No matter how hopeless it may seem for people either possessed by demons or infected by whatever the goal should be saving them not just slaughtering them.
Yes the speech came from Sam because he was the one that needed to stay behind (and unfortunately he didn’t realize he was going to be fighting for his life in a locked closet) so Dean could connect more with the baby I would assume.
From what Dean said to Sam the infection seemed to be isolated to that general area where the Darkness first appeared. So I am curious to see what happens in the second half of the two part episode. How Dean deals with the Darkness compelling him to save a baby that may or may not be evil. And Sam’s solution to the infection that seemed to be a first strike by the Darkness.
What solution? Burning marshmallows? Kidding. That’s just what it looks like in that one promo… 😉
?
There’s the promo.where Sam is holding with tongs? what look to be cotton swabs (I can’t remember now what they were) that were on fire that resembled marshmallows to me. I was just being silly. By the looks of it it appears Sam is about to apply said burning “marshmallows” to the veins on his neck. Maybe the cure. Douse the pads with Holy oil and set it on fire. That or he’s burning off his tattoo. It’s an interesting clip of a scene nonetheless.
You know that is interesting they made a point of showing Dean pack the holy oil. Which brings up another question. Where do they get there never ending supply of holy oil? FedEx?
In season one John made Holy Water by blessing a water tank and dropping in a Rosary. Maybe the boys became mail order ministers and they just bless any new oil they buy? “Hey Dean, there’s crunch bits in the French Fry oil, what do you want to do?” “Bless it one more time and throw it in the Holy Oil bottle.”
🙂
Holy Oil covered toasted marshmallows. Mmmm mmmm. I’m there!!! Or if Sam can gets his hands on those little Graham cracker packets at the nurses station and some Hershey bars from the vending machine he can whip up some Holy Oil Smores.
Yummy!
Maybe that is how he will cure the infection. Holy Smores. Smart Sam.
If not cure then at least control the murderous hoard. Sam: “Who wants more?!” Crowd of ravenous rabids: “Uhhhhhhhhnnn!”
Problem is Dean is going to want them to share with him when he shows back up… good thing he will have left the baby with Jenna cause there is nothing grosser than wet, gummed upon Graham crackers… 😉
I’d say he’s trying to burn the veins
Oh lordy that made me chuckle irl.
Sam: “Dean I think I found a cure..”
Dean: “Great, what is it?”
Sam: “I’m gonna burn my neck with a marshmallow on fire! :D”
Dean: ….
And just think! Right after the cure you have a tasty treat. Win, win, huh? Win, win.
So question. Is he using one marshmallow per vein, cause if so maybe he should have Dean bring him back a bag of those extra, extra large campfire marshmallows? They make great substitute pillows in a pinch too! Hey, you never know how long they might be stuck at that hospital. 😉
Speaking of, They released that shot of Dean holding what looks to be a grenade launcher. We didn’t see it come up in this episode so he must put that to use when he returns from dropping his charges off. That ought to be interesting.
Double post
First off I like the episode of supernatural tonight. But I through that Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki. Said that boys will be clear and not have any kind of problems, now Sam is infected with black thing on him, and it is clear that at some point they died. Did I miss something, I see that someone is going to died and that looks like Sam. That is the point did the boys lied in there interviews so the fans will not worry or get upset.
I don’t think Sam is going to die. I think it will affect him differently. I don’t think the J’s meant that there wouldn’t be problems this year, there are always problems. But I think primarily the boys will be themselves this season as they face them together. My take anyway.
Sam won’t die. I think it’s all about building tension.
I don’t think Sam will die, I think that his demon blood (a dropped plot line that desperately needs some kind of resolution) saved him from the rabids. I think that they could smell it in him and that he will have to confront all over again what it means to have demon blood in him. I see a throwback to Croatoan; I think Sam will be immune to the more fatal effects of the rabid ‘virus’ or whatever it is because of his demon blood. It would be hard for him to learn that he was not purified by the trials after all, but how weirdly and wonderfully ironic would it be if the demon blood actually saved him this time?
I agree with everything you said, [b]especially[/b] the dropped plot line! I’m confident his demon blood will stop the infection from killing him.
I think that black veiny stuff will be cleared up next week because Sam doesn’t have it in any other ep promo that we have seen – I think he is in the church praying next wk maybe he will get some vision or Holy Intervention then :D:D:D
Maybe Dean is the Key and Amara is the lock (get it ) LOL hope they don’t turn it into some goovy love thing ;););)
You mean they might be Gozer’s Rick Moranis and Sigourney Weaver?
:D:D:D:D:D mmmmm
The black veiny stuff looks identical to when Sam was detoxing in the panic room in S4, doesn’t it?
Lol. Definitely getting a, Ghostbusters vibe ! Poor Dean has to put the key in to lock her up.
– Filler-plot characters are caricatures. No surprise there.
– Cas runs like a girl. Did not need to see that.
– Apparently releasing The Darkness obliterated the brothers trigger discipline.
– “We need to change” Oh but lets keep secrets. I don’t mind that. Yet. Shit’s happening quick, and they’re trying to process. No fault there. Really hope they come clean and iron shit out in the next episode or two. I really can’t handle another season of secrets and behind-the-back dealings between these two. It’s such an uninteresting narrative that has been done to death on this show. So many possibilities with Sam & Dean being on the same page, seeing eye to eye, and sticking to a plan of attack throughout an entire season.
– Why is every Demon a bumbling ball of incompetence?
– Really wish someone on this show had some creative vision. Sick of every shot looking, and sounding, like it was ripped straight from a soap opera.
Nit-picking aside, didn’t mind this episode. I went in with rather low expectations, and I enjoyed it more than I had envisioned. It didn’t get too ridiculous, though it felt very [i]Eve and The Jefferson Starships[/i].
No Rowena = Win!
I feel your frustration with the characterizations of both demons, and for me angels as well. I think the show has failed miserably in building either heaven or hell with characters that are nuanced. I miss the angels of season 4-6, when there was something more to them than torture. The same goes for demons. Once upon a time they were more than what they are now.
Yeah the Eve point is a good one.
But criticisms aside, I thought it was a better season premiere than the past three seasons because at least they ran into the plot quickly, for the most part.
I agree with that. Better than expected, but my expectations were low.
I do like that it was apparently all happening within hours of the S10 finale. No silly time jumps.
Glad they just tried to deal with what’s in front of them as apposed to stacking the ep with a bunch of lore. Plenty of time to flesh that out as the season progresses.
All in all, I enjoyed it more than I enjoyed most of S10. Including the S10 premiere.
Season 9 premiere had tons of plot and action.
[quote]Cas runs like a girl. Did not need to see that.[/quote]
Russ, there’s always at least one thing in your comments that cracks me up. Thanks for the laugh! And I agree with your comment about the demons. I’ve felt that way for several years now.
1. That was a great episode, right? Welcome back, Supernatural. Happy 219th episode!
It was. I think this is the first time we have gotten a two parter?
2. What do you think the connection between Dean and the Darkness is?
He wore it. Plain and simple. I was yelling for Dean “Watch the personal space missy!” The actress has an old school wibe about her so first impression is careful thumbs up for her.
3. Who is yelling from the cage?
I would say both Michael and Lucifer and that is what scares me. I also fell down from my chair when I heard this.
4. What are the angels going to do to Castiel?
Angels are generally dicks so nothing good.
5. Where is ROWENA?????
Plotting. The episode was full so glad she wasn’t on it.
6. Why did the BTDs leave Sam after smelling him? Is it a clue or does Jared Padalecki just smell that good?
If he would smell that good then why would they lea— Cough, now where was I? I would think because he was already infected and they smelled it?
Things look great for the season and I was not dissapointed. Crowley’s woman actress did a good job and the orgy was awkward and hilarious. Crowley didn’t expect that now did he/she? Perplexed was an understatement. Still, the icky orgy group gets a minus from me. If people acted like that I would like to slap them silly.
I thought it was a good. I enjoyed it more than the last three season openers so that’s a plus. My husband actually suggested that Dean is the darkness and that’s why she said, am I talking or are you? I really hope Dean comes clean about that to Sam. They keep blathering about being on the same page this time so they better step up. As for Sam not telling Dean, I think he did that because Dean was trying to save that woman and the baby and if he’d told him, Dean would have abandoned them and come back to try and save him. Plus, if he’s already dying, he didn’t want him to know and lather, rinse, repeat.
I actually gasped when that demon mentioned the cage. I’m afraid of the implications of Lucifer getting out. I understand why Cas called for angels, but he gets screwed every time, poor guy. I didn’t miss Rowena. That would have added too much to the episode. I apparently didn’t mind Crowley’s orgy as much as everyone else. It was a little out of place, but I thought the woman playing him did a decent enough job channeling Mark. I did actually laugh a little.
I definitely think those people didn’t kill Sam because he was infected and they could tell. I loved Sam’s speech. Before that, he was doing his usual stand in the background being a guilty shadow while Dean blustered along, had most of the dialogue and bonded with the guest star so when they actually let him have a moment and some POV and actually have Dean LISTEN for a change I was cheering. And I really like what he said about doing what he does. He’s a hunter, he can go out there and try to save people too, not just Dean trying to save everybody. I know he got hurt and is dying now, but I’m glad he held his ground.
All in all, I was entertained and really can’t wait until next week.
Edited to add that I was disappointed that there was no discussion about what happened in the bar or Dean even asking Sam if he was alright.
[quote]I was disappointed that there was no discussion about what happened in the bar or Dean even asking Sam if he was alright.[/quote]
I agree Sylvia. There is no way they can just sweep that whole thing under the rug. I hope they have a conversation about that, and soon.
Huh. Dean saving Sam’s life again. How, dare he
Sam undoing creation… releasinf Metatron. .. giving Rowena 2 powerful books…. he had his reasons
?!!!
I guess my comment wasn’t self-explanatory. I thought Dean should have asked Sam if he was alright because of how he tricked Sam into meeting him and Death with the intention of having Sam murdered, then beat the shit out of him and was about to commit the murder/fratricide himself, until Sam’s love for and faith in him got through to him. I would think that those circumstances would call for a lengthy conversation.
And “saving Sam’s life” in this instance wasn’t as noble as it sounds since it constituted saving him from the murder that Dean himself had arranged, and about which he had (fortunately) changed his mind. Actually, when you think about it, Sam saved his own life by getting through to Dean just in time.
Sometimes I think fandom treats these two tough hunters like they are hormonal teenage girls. The situation was what it was.
Somehow I don’t think Sam is really looking for an apology for what Dean did because he realizes how for Dean there was no other way to end the MOC and stop from continuing to hurt others. I loved how Sam said that the reason Dean called was because he knew that Sam “would do anything to protect him” Dean clearly wasn’t thinking straight with his “We are evil, Sam” speech. Dean wasn’t Dean at that point otherwise Sam never would have had to get thru to him. Sam knows this. Also Sam got thru but if Dean hadn’t chosen to kill Death Sam still would have ended up dead. Sam had no idea that Dean was going to do that. Sam knows what it’s like to be supernaturaltv influenced, he knew Dean would never do something like that in his right mind. That’s why I doubt he’s worrying about an apology.
I agree that Sam isn’t necessarily looking for an apology, but that was an amazing amount of crap between the brothers at the end of S10, with some harsh things said and done, and I like to think that even our ridiculously reticent heroes would find it necessary to clear the air. I wish, anyway.:)
Do you mean that Sam had his reasons? I would agree that Sam did. He saved Dean. I am not sure how Dean saved Sam’s life. Wasn’t he about to skewer Sam? Sam was able to get through to Dean. I think that Sam saved both of them.
Now did Sam make some really desperate moves to do it? Yes he did. There was a lengthy conversation on another thread where I didn’t think that Sam’s actions compared to Dean’s matched up. I don’t know if it was writing or direction but it didn’t quite work for me.
I immediately had the same thought as your husband.
So Sam can lie and undo creation because he has his reasons but Dean … come on.
Dean isn’t himself. He has a hot chick yammering in his head. Let him get his balance back.
Dean was Mr. Honesty last season. Sam not so much.
Dean is in no a different situation than Sam was in with Lucifer yammering in his head and frankly I do not think he was that much not himself . As for Dean being Mr Honesty that is a opinion I will leave alone considering how I feel towards Dean,s actions the last two seasons.
There is a difference tho. Lucifer wasn’t really there or actually in his head, The Darkness/Amara is and in Dean’s. Who knows how she is going to influence him going forward.
How do you know that TheD was really a person inside Dean’s head? How do you know he’s not imagining it all? That hasn’t been established yet.
So he Imagined her taking him out of a closed Impala to a field a mile away? Or was that just a really really strong gust of wind?
Dean saw the woman outside the windshield. Then he was in the swirling smoke. He told Sam that she saved him. So did she take him out of the car? If so what did she save him from. Sam was in the car and unhurt. Why take him out of the car? And what happened that Dean needed to be saved from. I have a feeling that Dean is going to remember more (that I would bet he isn’t going to share with Sam) about those missing minutes? hours? days?
I am getting a Glory/Dawn feel to this season. Hope I am wrong.
Makes no difference it was real to Sam and Lucifer was talking to him just like the Darkness was to Dean so we willl have to disagree on that one. What ever way the Darkness influences him it will not be something Dean will have held against him it is the part of the story that may or may not work depending on how they write it .
Loved it.
I think it’s important to remember here that no matter how much time actually paased, for them they literally just left the bar, i dont expect change for both of them instantaneously just because we want it. The very fact that they had the conversation about change, is a major winchester coup imho. Its pretty much winchester go to behavior to try to protect each other when things seem grim for one of them…instinctive protective reaction. I expect in time they will open up…arent we getting a few heart to hearts in Baby…im patient..i can wait…it wouldnt seem real if they suddenly started opening up right away…;)
Didnt think anything much about orgy except it was a bit of light humor in a dark situation..didnt take it seriously and didnt bother me one way or the other.
I like rowena so i look forward to her return and the havoc she will wreak.
Wasnt much interested in cas, but im sure that will change as he gets more involved in the fight.
Thought darkness to dean was like sam to lucifer….sam freed lucifer and ther was gratitude…now i dont think dean is meant to be a vessel as sam was meant to be..but i wonder if the baby is meant to be the vessel and dean is to protect her?…..too early to tell
I think the ruckus in the cage was both michael and lucifer
An amazing part one….love the whole feel to it…..and inlove that the boys not only recognize the need to change, but have actually taken the first step….i have no doubt they will get there.
Boys looked gorgeous…and as always loved playing the where have we seen them game.
The kid in barn….little boy from wishful thinking
Female crowley…mom from its a great pumpkin sam w
The deputy….the alphas daughter in there will be blood
The orgy husband…..fbi agt reedy.
Til next week;)
[quote]I think it’s important to remember here that no matter how much time actually paased, for them they literally just left the bar, i dont expect change for both of them instantaneously just because we want it.[/quote]
Its not so much that the first episode is probably not the time/place for an in depth discussion between the boys (as you are correct, it probably isn’t) it’s that this show has a TERRIBLE track record of addressing any of those large, glaring issues between them at any time at all, ever. I waited for pretty much the entirety of the first half of season 8 for Sam to explain why he didn’t look for Dean, or Kevin, but nope, it didn’t happen. I waited through the second half of season 8 to find out why Dean wanted to keep Benny a secret…. nothing. I waited for pretty much ALL of season 9 to find out how Sam felt about the possession, nothing again there either. I waited for half of season 9 and ALL of season 10 to see if Dean would confide in anyone about his feelings about becoming the monster he had always feared was inside him. I waited for him to turn to Sam about that, because who better to turn to than the man who’d had a monster inside him his entire life, but again, nada, nothing, ziltch, zero. The fact that neither brother addressed the issues lingering from season 10 in episode one of season 11 probably means that we will never hear another word about it.
E.
Didn’t Dean repeatedly try to have that conversation last season? I am glad Sam finally gets it. Too late is better than never.
Did he? I know he didn’t want Sam and Cas to save him. But I don’t think he said exactly what Sam said to Dean.
When all the town folk were possessed by demons in First born Dean killed a bunch of them and then watched Cain kill the rest. I remember thinking at the time those people are freshly possessed. Where is the recording of the exorcism (Jus n bello, Mothers Little Helper)? That would have worked too. When did that become so common place? When did the innocent possessed or infected people become canon fodder? I for one am excited to see them start to consider the poor “us” and not just mow us down for the “bigger” picture.
I’m glad that Dean listened to Sam. Sam does seem to get through to Dean. That may be helpful for later on when Dean starts to succumb to the Darkness/Amara. Although there was some indication from interviews that she may or may not be evil.
Nope he never did. Introspection is not Deans’ forte.
He did as early as episode 10:4. He says the saving each other thing no matter what isn’t working out…
KATE Kate and Tasha are monsters, okay? Last I checked, we kill monsters.
SAM Right, but how can you possibly blame Kate for fighting for her sister? We do it all the time.
DEAN Well, yeah, and that’s worked wonders for us.
SAM Well, we’re still here, aren’t we?
DEAN [questioningly] Yeah, but is it right? I mean, all that you’ve done for me, I’ve still got this Mark.
SAM [insistent] And we’ll figure that out. We always do. But you can’t take whatever’s happened to us or to you and — and dump it at these girls’ feet.
DEAN [considering] All right, so, what? You wanna nuance this thing? Hit me. What’s your plan?
[Sam frowns in thought.]
Then in BotD. … there’s too much to cut and paste. Even with the Mark Dean was too moral to risk the lives of others for his own benefit. I mean they flipped the script on the brothers and Dean is still the selfless hero.
I don’t think that conversation is the same as what Carver is saying in this episode. Dean was going with Sam’s plan is all I got from it.
In the BotD Sam was going to save Dean no matter what. In this episode his speech to Dean was “look where that got us”. He acknowledged that they have both lost sight of their “bumper sticker”. They need to remember the “Saving People” part.
I really loved this episode. It has me on tenterhooks waiting for next week. I agree with the consensus on the orgy. It was a ludicrous scene, very out of place in this ep. It honestly played like a SNL skit. What also bothers me about it is that I think it was partly because TPTB don’t want Crowley to be TOO awful, so we can’t have him killing a nice middle class family. No, let’s have him kill some weird icky people that the viewers can laugh about. If Crowley were to revert to his old ways of callously killing all and sundry just for kicks, how could he function as the boys’ frenemy? To me, it’s reminiscent of MOC Dean mostly killing losers and scum.
I loved the boys’ conversation and every single word that Sam uttered. Mature self-awareness by a Winchester! Great concept and long overdue. I also agree with Sylvia that Sam’s “let me do what I do” is him taking a stand that he is going to be an active part in their newfound commitment to saving people. he doesn’t just want to be Dean’s wing man as they follow a classic Dean plan of bursting out of the hospital, guns blazing. And I LOVED that Dean accepted that and respected Sam’s wishes. Maybe the brothers will finally display that maturity Carver promised us years ago. I’m loving the glimpses of it that we’re already seeing.
I also love the reference to the ruckus in the cage. Oh God, please let it be Lucifer trying to communicate. Bring back Mark P!!! Stat! At least in a vision.
I think Cas called the angels in because he knows he presents a danger to people, even to the Winchesters, so who else can he call?
Finally, the one thing that makes me uneasy is the Dean/Darkness connection. If it turns into a love connection, then NO, just NO. That would be silly beyond words. And I was a little mystified that she thanked Dean. If anything, she should be finding and thanking Rowena for releasing her. But I’m willing to wait and see how it all plays out, because there is so much that is promising about the season. I’m especially looking forward to what I hope will be lots more honest communication between the brothers.
hey samanddean10,
maybe the darkness/if that’s who she is thanked dean in essence for the mark. i mean he was the one who took it from cain, where according to God’s decree that cain cannot be killed after he murdered his brother, possibly because cain received the mark from lucifer at this point and God wanted to make sure that lock stayed in tact?…..then we have dean taking the mark making it very easy, as opposed to cain, for the lock to be opened again…… so maybe it’s more like thanks dean, i never thought i’d get that bitch of a lock opened…i owe you a beer and a burger…oh hell, you deserve some pie as well. 😀
given that, i still believe that God had always known once lucifer betrayed him the darkness was at risk of being released and still hold firm that the reason for the winchesters has been to fight it. jmo of course. ;);)
Sugarhi, oddly enough I’m kind of enjoying not knowing exactly what is going on. I really don’t know what to make of the conversations between Dean and that woman (who might or might not be the D!) but I like when the show is unpredictable. While I really hope there is no love angle between Dean and her, I’m up for just about anything else. I’m just glad the season is off to an intriguing start.:)
Sorry, duplicate post!
I thought it would of made more sense for her to whisk Sam out of the car and thank HIM since he started this book of the damned cure in the first place.
I thought the episode was OK. Not riveting, but competent. I too hated the orgy scene. It was like a scene from some other show; trite with over the top caricatures that were not funny and even vaguely insulting. So, when the milquetoast, midwestern middle-aged white folk decide to have an orgy of course they are flouting their Jesus freak religious morals and say things like “heck” and “h-e double toothpick”. Then they smile too big and get all giddy over the prospect of having The Sex. Ugh. Terrible, obvious, insulting writing. This show never used to go in for that type of thing; it cheapened the whole episode IMO. Why was any of that necessary? Filler, and bad filler at that. I did like Sam’s speech about saving everyone instead of getting laser focused on one thing, it’s about time that the show acknowledged how far it’s strayed from it’s roots. I was not happy to see shades of dictatorial Dean again, he’s just really unpleasant and abrasive. Thankfully he actually listened this time. I am also not especially thrilled with the Dean/Darkness ‘romance’ that they’ve got brewing. Hopefully that will improve as time goes on. It does occur to me that Dean himself has become TheD!!!! but doesn’t know it yet. That could be cool. I hope they don’t use TheD!!!! to drive a wedge between the brothers (one side wants to fight it, one side wants to save it); The Carver swore that they boys would work together on this.
Did you notice though that Dean was right and Sam killed one within minutes of saying no killing infecting himself.
I think Dean didn’t care about Sam at that moment because all he cared about was the baby who is baby Darkness. He was charged with protecting it by lady Darkness. Dean is not completely himself.
Dean had that speech with Sam and Cas last season. They didn’t listen and released the Darkness.
So Sam and Cas’s choice was Darkness (no one knew what that was) or watch Dean destroy the world. What’s a brother and best friend to do. I do agree that last season the depiction of Dean “going off the rails” was very poorly told. It did make Sam and Cas’ decisions seem over the top.
Like I said I think Carver is looking to do a reboot of the series and try to get away from killing the people they are supposed to be saving. The show seems to be his now. It will be interesting to see what he does with it.
Actually, their choice wasn’t the Darkness. No one knew about that until Dean summoned Death. People kept saying “there will be consequences” but as Sam noted, no one knew what those consequences were. Yes, Dean said the Book made him feel like something bad would happen, but he was wearing The Mark. The same Mark that was so intent on not letting Dean go that it turned Dean into a freaking demon rather than letting him die. So Dean wasn’t exactly uninfluenced or necessarily feeling what was true. He could just as well have been reacting to the Mark trying to protect itself.
Frankly, if Dean had told Sam about what Death had warned, instead of just telling Sam that Sam had to die Sam could have, at the very least, called Cas and called off the spell. But Dean didn’t. He just told Sam that Sam was a bad person, who deserved to die and Dean was going to kill him.
Sam knew he was taking a risk saving Dean, but leaving Dean with the Mark was a risk as well. Dean isn’t immortal and Dean was hunting. If he got himself killed again, then it’s back to Demon Dean. I know Dean thought that Sam should spend the rest of his life trapped in the bunker with a demonic brother who wanted to bash his brains in and who was going to wage psychological warfare on Sam until Sam died, but maybe Sam didn’t want to be murdered? Or suffer unending emotional abuse? Even though it was not portrayed well, Dean stated he was deteriorating and succumbing to The Mark and Dean had zero ideas about how to keep human. Remember, Dean’s blood lust was being sated by Crowley, who gave him demons to kill. No Crowley, no demons, and the Mark pushes Dean to start killing people. Sam trying to stop that was not evil or even wrong, especially considering that the consequences of removing the Mark weren’t known.
Dean and the story objected to using the Book of the Damned. Dean more or less wanted the Mark gone, he just didn’t like the way Sam was doing it. But the Darkness would have come if Sam or Dean had found a way to remove the Mark without the Book. Losing the Mark was what released the Darkness, not using the BOTD.
Good point. They could have cut Dean’s arm off and the Darkness would probably have been relased. TBOTD was only a means to an end, not the end itself. And as you said, none of the other options looked any better, they actually all looked worse. Sam would be dead, Dean would be killing anything and everyone and Cas would not have been strong enough to stop him. Milennia of killing was in the worlds future with no one left to help end it. Now, we have the darkness, but we also still have Sam and Dean who are around to fight it. So kudos to Sam.
And that is why Dean killed Death. His “forgive me” to Sam was that he wasn’t going to lock himself away after killing his brother. He was going to kill Death (who threatened Sam) and take his chances with his brother. As always Sam got through to Dean. For better or worse they were going to face the consequences together.
Cas told Dean btw that cutting off his arm wouldn’t get rid of the Mark. It’s power was in Dean not just his arm. And I agree Sam and Cas had no options. Release a powerful mysterious bad thing or watch Dean destroy the world. The went with option B.
Decent episode. I don’t think that Sam is infected in the same way as the others due to his demon blood. The veins looked similar to the ones he had when he was detoxing. That makes me think that the infection is somehow related to demon blood and since he already has some in his system it won’t kill him.
Jury’s out on the darkness being represented as a woman and then (maybe) the baby. Have to see where they take it.
No interest whatsoever in Lucifer and Michael making an appearance. Been there done that. Let’s be a bit more creative, writers.
At least I’m interested in where they go with this.
[b]1. That was a great episode, right? Welcome back, Supernatural. Happy 219th episode![/b]
Reserving final judgement for a rewatch. It was good – lot of potential for the season, but I need to rewatch it. Some of the back and forth between Sam and Dean was a little off and, while I didn’t expect them to be on the same page from episode one, there are still a lot of “issues” between them they need to hash out.
[b]2. What do you think the connection between Dean and the Darkness is?[/b]
Are we certain that the woman that Dean was seeing in the Darkness cloud was the Darkness, or was she caught up in the maelstrom when God and the archangels locked the Darkness away? Looks like that “first born” baby is going to be the manifestation of the Darkness, isn’t it?
[b]3. Who is yelling from the cage?[/b]
Probably both Michael and Lucifer; maybe their Internet connection went down?
[b]4. What are the angels going to do to Castiel?[/b]
Same old same old with Castiel; was hoping they could come up with something more interesting. But I suppose TPTB in Heaven are pissed with what Sam, Castiel and surly Bobby did, releasing Metatron from jail.
[b]5. Where is ROWENA?????[/b]
Glad they held off on doing anything with her this episode; since she’s going to play a role in S11, might as well wait till they have enough time to properly address it. The episode had enough going on already.
[b]6. Why did the BTDs leave Sam after smelling him? Is it a clue or does Jared Padalecki just smell that good?[/b]
Wasn’t sure; it was either because he was already infected, or because Sam also has some ties to the Darkness. He played an important role in releasing it, and was also the vessel of Lucifer, the first carrier of the Mark that held back the Darkness. Or maybe Sam’s demon blood will play in to this.
The Crowley stuff, with the orgy, etc. came off of as odd and out of place in this episode. And it looks as though Crowley can’t teleport now. He snapped his fingers and nothing happened; was that because of the Darkness or having to wear a new meatsuit?
[quote]Why did the BTDs leave Sam after smelling him? Is it a clue or does Jared Padalecki just smell that good?
Wasn’t sure; it was either because he was already infected, or because Sam also has some ties to the Darkness. He played an important role in releasing it, and was also the vessel of Lucifer, the first carrier of the Mark that held back the Darkness. Or maybe Sam’s demon blood will play in to this.[/quote]
njspnfan, I would love it if the BTD’s reaction was not simply because Sam was already infected. I love your ideas about Sam’s connection to the D playing into it. There are so many interesting directions they could take with this, and I personally would welcome it if they tied up once and for all the demon blood issue.
it would be great it they could tie it back to a lot of the loose ends from s4/s5
It’s incomprehensible to me that they’ve never truly wrapped up those loose ends, since those “loose ends” constituted an essential part of the plot for the first 5 seasons. Now would certainly be an opportune time since the whole Darkness scenario is inextricably linked to God and the archangels. Fingers crossed!
If it is legit , Lilah is posting a HUGE spoiler on the Discussion pages.
It seems legit. I have no words. 😮
– Lilah
Is that what I think it is? If so WOW!
Hmmmm spoilers………………………………… read, or don’t read………..read, don’t…………read, don’t…………………ah hell, I’m off to read!
Holy buckets!!!
I know right?!?!:o
🙁
Hi Wednesday. Even though I loathed that scene for so many reasons the fact that “flabby, white (?), old (?) people” are engaging in consensual sex is not one of them. I would characterize them as middle aged. That’s not being PC. Maybe it’s my perspective but people in their 40’s and 50’s are not “old” to me. Or to them I imagine. Who cares if they are flabby? I don’t even understand what white has to do with it. The people were OTT cartoonish and the scene was not amusing in the least, they ended up dead. Don’t need to see a bloodbath orgy I agree. So a huge fail.
I don’t even want to touch on your feminist angle. I almost never see it like you do but I do acknowledge you are probably more educated on the subject. I am just a flabby old person. :D;)
Agreed Leah. The scene was awful on so many levels, none of which had anything to do with the swingers being old, flabby or white. And I also agree that they were not “old” at all. People in their 40s look pretty darned young to me! :p
Me too.
🙁
I didn’t think they were that unattractive. Just a poorly acted and written scene. It didn’t belong in the episode and again reduced Crowley to a joke.
[quote]Having them scripted and cast as corny old, unattractive and white people was done deliberately so that the audience would not care about them,[/quote]
I guess that’s the part we disagree on, Wednesday. While it’s probably true that TPTB picked white people because it’s always safe to mock and murder white folks without offending anyone, I didn’t really notice them as being either old or particularly unattractive. What struck me (and had me hating the scene from the first line of dialogue) was the incredibly corny, pathetic, “icky” way they expressed themselves about the orgy. That, along with the fact that their slaughter was played for laughs, made the whole scene repellent to me. And that’s the way I would have felt whether that dialogue had been spoken by toned, hot, 20 year old Asians or skinny 40 year old Rastafarians. I can’t speak about why other people liked or disliked the scene, or whether they found it funny simply because of the demographics of the characters. But my feelings about it had nothing to do with the race, age or fitness level of the characters. I do agree that it was embarrassing and gross, and if TPTB picked those demographics for the reasons you stated, I think they seriously miscalculated.
“And that’s the way I would have felt whether that dialogue had been spoken by toned, hot, 20 year old Asians or skinny 40 year old Rastafarians.” LOL. I agree Samandean.
I have mixed feelings about this episode. To me, it wasn’t one of the greats.
I liked that it picked up right where last year stopped. The Winchesters are still processing what happened. The bit about Baby and the pothole was cute.
I liked the introduction of another feisty female, the deputy. She shot the highway worker, not the Winchesters. She let Dean stitch her up withot making a fuss.
I did not like Sam’s diversion-how stupid of him not to have scoped out his path first. There seemed to be time.
I liked Sam’s speech and that Dean actually listened to him. He’s done that from time to time and they have always been better off when he did.
As to Dean and the Darkness, Dean was unconscious when Sam found him. I think things/memories are coming back in spurts. He hasn’t had much time for quiet reflection.
Re Cas, is the implication he killed the farmer’s dog? It made sense to me that he called out to the angels. He figures he’s a danger to everyone else.
As for Crowley, I got a kick out of the orgy scene. It showed how easily even the most evil demon can be distracted by a sinful activity. Why not have some fun after being beaten and stabbed? He did need their blood to make his phone calls, so theywere going to die anyway. Naturally the other demons would have liked to have some fun too. I thought the demon who expressed disappointment showed real courage.
I love how the angels and the demons are such spiffy dressers.
I was disappoined in the BTDs. They’re too much like zombies for me. I’d have preferred a recurrence of the Croatan virus. Why is it so localized?
I look forward to watching more episodes because I really do love this show. I sleep so much better at night knowing the Winchesters are out there keeping me save from the things that go bump in the night.
Mostly agree with you all. Except was disappointed a bit that already Sam has a problem with the black veins. Can’t the boys be both OK at the same
time now and again?
As for Crowley and the orgy, I found it amusing and a good relief from the angst of the rest of the episode. The actress who played Crowley was
really excellent! Don’t know why it bothers everybody else.
Welcome back Boys!!!!
Hi Bevie. Can’t speak for anyone else but I had NO issues with the actress that played Crowley. Just the scene in general and the silliness of the other 3 characters.
Hell no. I’ve been waiting for an evil Sam for ages! I need my fix 8)
i didn’t have any problems with any part of this episode. loved it all.
me and a friend were just chatting and we’ve come up with this angle…
amara is just a newborn who has the mark. so maybe the mark got transferred to a new life once removed from dean…it had to go somewhere. dean keeps flashing back to a woman.
so maybe what dean is seeing aren’t his memories. maybe he’s having premonitions/visions. sam was psychically connected to all the children yellow eyes visited. so maybe because dean had the mark for as long as he did, he’s got a psychic connection with the darkness. amara isn’t even a woman yet, though i suspect she’ll have an amazon growth spurt soon enough.
didn’t spoilers say both sam and dean have visions of sorts?
did not read posts.
The same chick who was the ALPA VAMPS pure blood source was the Deputy.
Yet ANOTHER demon girl child.
The Alpha vamp sent her to sheriff school :D:D:D
😉
How about the baby being God who noticed the door was open, the critters were getting loose and birthed to help? Key/lock/powerful entity good combo.
No vessel, own body….
Lock locked while a new plan is developed.
good one
Great comments everybody now the excitment has settled and I already have watched the ep again. Amara /The Darkness is just been born – because of Dean’s connection to the Darkness I believe he is baby Amara’s protector Like in the Twilight series (poor comparison) when the wolf was bound to protect the baby. So right throughout the season I feel we will be seeing Dean protecting Amara. Remember when Amara said she didn’t know Death !! – and Death didn’t know her. I wonder if we are being led up the garden path. Maybe Amara isn’t here for all bad remember Crowley has the 3 faces, and what do we really know about him. Are the towns people infected by the darkness could it be something else ?? the zombies were after the baby either to kill it or save it. Why would The Darkness send its own Goons to kill itself ?? We may have two evils here they were only in Salvation no other town they were only near the baby so whats happening. Mor & more questions the next couple of wks will be interresting
Sam’s story is starting slow I will be interested to see his unfold
Cheryl42, I did notice that Dean was very off and needed to save the baby. He is the Darkness’ boy toy. He wasn’t listening to Sam so much as gauging whether Sam was a hindrance or helping his quest.
Dean will need to shirk her influence if they are to save the world
As for Castiel, he was completely disloyal to heaven wirh several negative outcomes. He behaved like an enemy. I see things, from their perspective.
If someone had broken into the bunker and released Metatron, given Rowena Twould powerful books that make her more powerful than angels, and used a, dark magic time to release the Darkness for their own personal gain, the Winchesters would want them dead. Why should the angels behave Any differently.
Well honestly as much as heaven screwed with Castiel and the Winchesters over the seasons I don’t have any sympathy for angels anymore than demons. So if they have beef with one of their brothers I say “get some therapy pal”.
Dean didn’t go off of the rails… Sam did.
Dean repeatedly told them not to do it and why… because people would die as a result. Sam didn’t care about the consequences. He said so himself.
Well know that he sees the consequences he is changing his tune… yet by his admittance he would do it all again. No wonder there are threads mocking Sam in imbd right now.
They referenced Mystery Spot in Reichenbach. Sam says he has to be the one to save Dean. Sam doesn’t care about the consequences. Sam leaves a string of bad decisions and bodies. Carver says, we need to choose for ourselves who is the bigger monster. I say it was Sam.
…
Oh my gosh, stop the presses! The towering intellects at imdb think Sam is in the wrong?!!! Hah, good one PSG. From the bits of imdb that I’ve read, most (not all) of the commenters are rabid Dean girls who love being in their echo chamber with other rabid Dean girls. They bully and insult anyone who dares to disagree with them. As Socrates so eloquently put it, “when the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” So if THEY think Sam is in the wrong, Sam is most assuredly in the right. Personally, I think anyone who watches SPN with even a slightly open mind (whether she is a Sam girl, Dean girl or Cas girl) recognizes that neither brother has a monopoly on doing right or doing wrong.
Hey! As a towering intellect that posts over at IMdB I resent that characterization! Hmpf. 😉
In all fairness it can get pretty “echo chambery” over here too.
And God no, neither brother can claim a monopoly on doing right or wrong, that is for certain.
Echo chamber here…here…..here? Don’t know what you mean….mean…….mean! 😀 And in my brief visits to imdb I did see some of your comments (assuming there’s only ONE Alycat!) and my remark was not directed at you. Well the bullying/insulting part wasn’t, as far as the towering intellect, the jury is still out! I’ll see what you have to say about a few more episodes first:)
The one and only that posts over there as far as I know. Unless of course you have come across some really ignorant posts in which case that is so obviously the other guy!!! Ha!
As far as the towering intellect, well, that depends upon the day… 😉
Yes some of us lurk over there. I post sometimes as well (at my own peril). It really amuses me that all you have to do is insert *brother name* into any argument either here or there and it is word for word the same. Everyone is right and no one is wrong. As long as it is a fun debate on interpretation it’s all great no matter where you post.
It is a crazy fandom that’s for sure. One thing that helps no matter where you post is having a thick skin. 😉
It can be a lot of fun tho both here and there. You must post under a different name/avatar cause I don’t remember seeing you?
I haven’t posted there in a long time. I mostly lurk. Although the Winchesterland thread looks promising. They have the latest news most times so I check there to see what is happening.
BotD. Dean felt it and he showed Sam an MOL thst documented disasters from when the book was used by evil people for their own gain.
I agree that she may not be bad in the literal sense. She may learn from Dean and come to value human life. Perhaps they veins thing was, engineered to get her vessel and she didn’t consider that the consequences were bad until Dean let her know.
She may simply be other than God the Father.
Per our discussions, I feel the main characters need to be held to the same standard that others are… at least for their actions to count.
Previously all angels followed a plan. When Cas followed Dean’s lead he saved the world. He has subsequently broke it by following Crowley’s, Metatron’s and Sam’s leads. There is no victory to be celebrated. He’s put the himans, at risk. The angels aren’t the enemy threatening humanity. Sam and Cas are. And they unleashed a triple threat.
Yes and I argued that point extensively on another thread. I didn’t feel that the writing showed Dean going off the rails enough for the extreme measures that Sam was taking. Dean was basically just a more intense Dean. I felt that Sam’s desperate moves weren’t warranted specially considering that the writing for MOC Dean was so bland.
It could have been so magnificent if they had truly gone there with Dean. He needed to be an unstoppable force of evil rivaling Lucifer or Cain. Why even include their stories of centuries of reigning death and destruction on all mankind if they weren’t going to take Dean in that direction. Instead it looks like Amara is getting that story.
I do get it that Sam was making these desperate moves in order to prevent that from happening. I just would have preferred to see a Dean that made those decisions not only necessary to save him but also the world he was destroying. Would have been so much more fun.
As for the angels they have proven in the past that they serve their own interests. So I am not on the angel band wagon. Cas doesn’t owe them anything.
Oh I agree Alycat.
And boy was I reminded that this is, a horror show.
Percy owner did you forget about My Brother’s Keeper. Dean would never allow the Mark to be removed once he knew about the Darkness. DEAN is the brother that is not willing to risk the lives of others… repeatedly we have seen this. He will risk himself but not others.
There was no reason not to trust Dean on this because he wasn’t being deceitful or out of control. Sam was
Sure, once he knew he wouldn’t have let it be removed. Until then he was FINE with it being removed. Sam DIDN’T KNOW about The Darkness being released EVER. He wasn’t there when Death told Dean. Dean didn’t tell him. We don’t know HOW Sam would have reacted IF HE’D HAD ALL THE FACTS. Especially since Dean refused to TELL Sam anything other than “I’m going to murder you”, which Sam didn’t even fight very hard. He told knelt down to be executed, told Dean he believed Dean was a good man and waited to die.
Yep. Sam isn’t a reliable narrator or infallible because of the hubris. Let’s hope this second run at things helps him grow to be a better man and a hero. And less being tied to a chair because he and his plans usually lead to something along those lines.
That is how I see Dean it was his hubris and stupidity in taking the Mark that lead to everything else . Everybody should learn and grow should they not if Dean learns nothing from this then Sam learning means nothing because the same mistakes will happen.
Please no more tying to a chair/knocking out Sam. That got to be a joke last season. I understood why for the first part of the season but after Jared was out of the sling there was no reason to keep up the silly plot device. It got very tiresome.
Aktcat, Just not thinking clearly because of the enormity of the death that I on him . I guess he’s starting to care about those consequences.
U am wondering if Amara, the Darkness, cures them because she’s learning from Dean. She seemed surprised that Dean was upset about all of the veiny people.
Sam was shown an MOL file that he didn’t read. He was willing to take any risk. Like releasing Metatron and destroying Cas’ relationship with heaven, risking Bobby, killing Suzie, giving Rowena immediately se power… the list is long and shocking. Any and all of it was too high a price to pay if Sam cared about anyone but himself and Dean.
Yes Sam would have risked anything to save his doomed brother. He has a lot to atone for. Dean realized his mistakes too. There is hope in Winchesterland.
Dean is always painfully aware of his mistakes. It’s his flaw to feel too much guilt.
I was pleased to see Sam take responsibility too.
Not sure Amara is bad. She may just represent a different mythology than God the absent Father. Maybe God is, the baddie in this story.
It was interesting that Dean kept saying over and over how the woman was evil and she must be killed. But in his memories of meeting her at the end and judging by the blissful look on his face he seemed to be feeling something very different. Dean was adamant about saving the baby. Having just watched the episode again Mike the father said Amara, her name is Amara. Sam, Dean and deputy thought she meant the baby. But maybe he was trying to tell them the name of the Darkness. Maybe now that Sam is infected he will have a connection to her as well. Maybe he will get more information about her that he isn’t getting from Dean.
Sam has always owned up to his mistakes. Dean has too. That isn’t the problem. The problem is to stop making them to begin with. I think that is what Sam is trying to tell Dean and to his credit Dean actually listened for once.
But already we have secrets and lies. Oh well we knew it wouldn’t last.
Fazzie, To me these are the interesting questions. In Greek mythology, Amara /Hêmera is the daughter of darkness and granddaughter of chaos. Someone else found that Amara is a form of Mary.
So she’s pre-biblical. Pagan. The opposite of God tge, Father. Unfamiliar with creation in all of its aspects. She seemed to be learning from Dean. She was unaware of Death. She seemed to be unaware of the veiny people.
Not only did Dean have an agenda from her. The veiny people had am agenda. They went from the road site to the hospital and stayed… congregated
outside. Why. Because they wanted something in the hospital. It got me thinking. .. We don’t know that the veiny people are the Darkness. It’s an assumption and evidence seems to suggest otherwise.
Maybe it’s also God the conquerer. God the usurper. .
The thing that worries me is that we see the grown-up Amara wirh Dean in the Darkness. She says she saved him. From what? From having his soul eaten
Is thst the future, just the two of them… peace. Maybe she chose him for her own creation.
Dean will either have to break from her influence which is seductive to him clearly, or he will need to teach her. Dean doesn’t really like God so he may not be hung up on returning to status quo.
Very intriguing premise.
That is interesting about the mythology of Amara. She did seem innocent in that she was unaware of creation. But she was aware of Dean. I have a feeling by the look on Dean’s face in his last memory creation may have already occurred.
We were told that the Darkness is amoral. Unintended evil? Not immoral or moral. Just there for her own purposes. Interesting indeed.
Ummm. Dean never once killed without control. He never lost control. There was no urgenc . And in fact he had more control as a demon. So there really wasn’t any urgency.
Sam wasn’t really worried about that. He tells Charlie in BOTD that he cannot bear to have Dean become that thing again. The thing that left Sam in the dust without a care in the world. Sam broke the world again for very selfish reasons.
While I don’t agree that Sam’s actions were selfish I do agree that the bland way the MOC was being portrayed didn’t match the urgency and extreme actions of Sam and Cas. I think the writers backed off taking Dean any further than they did because they didn’t want his character to become irredeemable. I think the story would have worked better if Dean was at least showing more signs of losing control other than being a dick to some kids playing pool or killing a bunch of vampires. That really didn’t seem all that end of the world worthy.
Sam’s motivation for saving Dean…
Yeah. I guess I really understand now that….this is my life. I love it. But I can’t do it without my brother. I don’t want to do it without my brother. And if he’s gone, then I don’t….from BotD
SAM
We were trying to help you.
DEAN
I didn’t need help. I told you to leave it alone.
SAM
What was I supposed to do, just – watch you die?
DEAN
The Mark isn’t gonna kill me.
SAM
Maybe not, but – when it’s done with you, you won’t be you anymore. Dean, you’re all I’ve got. So of course, I was gonna fight for you because that’s what we do. And listen, I had a shot –
DEAN
Yeah you had a shot. Charlie’s dead. Nice shot.
From the Prisoner
SAM
– I know what I told Dean. Cas, look. I’ve been the one out there, messed up and scared. And alone. And Dean –
CASTIEL
he did whatever he could to save you.
SAM
Yes. I mean, it’s become his thing. I owe him this. I owe him everything. Look I know he pretends he can ride the Mark out, but you and I know the truth. We know what happens if we don’t cure him. We both know where that road ends black eyes and blood. Yes. From the Prisoner
Are you saying that Sam was going to save his brother from becoming the thing that destroys the world? Cain and Castiel painted a very bleak picture of what Dean was going to turn into. I understand why Sam did what he was doing to save Dean from that fate. I just wished that Dean was showing more signs of becoming that thing. It would have worked better for me if they had. It would have justified, in my mind Sam’s desperate actions.
And yes Sam and Dean would do anything to save each other. I can’t imagine Dean doing anything any differently (particularly if that is what was written for Dean to do).
Actually Sam is the thing that destroyed the world by removing the Mark.
Dean us not Cain. We never saw Dean lose control. We saw him defend himself and his family from threats. Then he stopped killing.
We saw Sam loose control. We saw a season of human monsters. Human killers. An angel as. DeFazio monster. We saw 3 years of Supernatural beings maintaining control because they had humans to ground them.
Sam needed to be the one to save Dean. Sam could not let Dean become a demon. His frantic and out of control quest directly related to his fear in s 3 most beautifully articulated in Mystery Spot. Remember that Gabriel tells Sam that although he thinks Dean is the dysfunctional, out of control brother. .. it is really Sam. There is a clear plotline all season for Sam being the brother out of control.
Carver is the king of subtext to make his points. .. and some pretty on point dialogue and plot points. Yeah Sam really did wrong. Delighted he realizes it. It makes me hopeful that he will become a real boy rather than a trope, a man and perhaps a hero.
Which is exactly the problem and harks back to the writers fear of showing Dean truly dark. They and fans like yourself with no disrespect make Sam the problem rather than Dean who,s own actions resulted in the Mark being there in the first place but who,s own ‘monster’ was written with the hero still in mind.
I wonder what people expected Sam to do in this situation esp after the way Dean and fans acted in season 8 because he had not going all out to save him from Purgatory.
Despite MOC Dean not being portrayed in the way he should of been it does not change the fact he was 1) A Demon at one point and 2) Cain,s legacy neither of which long term were viable . Sam is seen as being wrong for his action in a situation not of his making while Dean in turn is often seen as a tragic hero for crossing the line to save Sam risking the world to save the one .
Funny how that single -minded attribute can be seen so differently.
I think that is exactly my point. They backed off of showing us a truly evil being in Dean. It made Sam and Cas’ desperate moves seem really unnecessary. I agree.
I get what they were going for, Sam and Cas needed to save Dean before he became that thing, but it didn’t work as well as it could have. I don’t think the writing for Sam was off as much as it was for Dean. The whole set up for the big finale was Dean roughing up a few college kids, killing a nest of vampires and getting tough with a scumbag to get intel on Amelia. Kind of underwhelming.
As you said Dean wasn’t really out of control. Why go to Death? It made little sense to me. All the pieces had been put into motion based on a really blah MOC storyline. Just didn’t work as well as it could have.
[quote] Dean wasn’t really out of control. Why go to Death? It made little sense to me. All the pieces had been put into motion based on a really blah MOC storyline. Just didn’t work as well as it could have.[/quote]This is thing which disappointed me about The MOC storyline.
It had a chance of returning spn to the glory days but in the context of the shows atmosphere then.Show not tell was my complaint before but for season 10 there was even less telling.
I think I can uns=derstand why it was wwws for a long time.
Why would Dean say that if he could go back in time, he’d tell Cain to shove the mark? Dean accepted the mark because he had no choice if he wanted to save the human race from the immensely powerful, murderous Abaddon. The last Knight of Hell was out to rule the world and nothing on earth or in hell could kill her–nothing except the mark and blade. Castiel, Sam, and Dean certainly didn’t seem to regret his taking the MOC when Abaddon was harvesting souls and Metatron tried to take over the human race. Maybe Carver should go back in time and read the scripts for S9.
After all that Dean went through after taking on the Mark I don’t blame him for wanting to have never had to live through it. He became a demon. The thing he despised more than anything. The thing that killed his mother and destroyed his life. I think he really didn’t like that at all.
Dean and Sam did take Abaddon out once before (and then foolishly put her back together). So there was another way.
I think in the beginning even Dean didn’t know what taking on the Mark was doing to him. For the most part he seemed ok. When Cas saw the Mark he was visibly upset with Dean and told Sam to watch him. But other than Dean acting more intense in his kills nothing else seemed out of the ordinary. Sam tried repeatedly to get Dean to leave the Blade behind on hunts. He knew something was off but Dean was still mostly Dean. By the end of the season though Dean had started to show more violent tendencies particularly after killing Abaddon and trying to kill Gadreel. Sam and Cas even locked Dean up. Sam in particular didn’t want to use Dean as a nuclear weapon. And we all know how that turned out.
I think S9 kind of fell apart and the MOC story wasn’t very well told. It didn’t get much better in S10. The characterization of the Mark never seemed to have any consistency. It was kind of hard to connect the reaction of the other characters to how the Mark was affecting Dean. At least for me.
The immensely powerful murderous Abbadon who ran from her first sight of the presence of a single angel? Taking on the MoC to get rid of her was SOOOOOO unnecessary. Abbadon was dispatched pretty easily all things considered in the previous season by Sam and Dean without the Mark. They could have just lopped off her head and hands again and buried her under the ground like they had done before…. devil’s trap bullets remember? The fact that she was a threat again at all was because Sam and Dean were dumb enough to put her back together. They could have left her the way she was and negated the entire MoC storyline, which would have been fine with me as it was a 35 episode borefest and dismal failure.