A Deeper Look at Supernatural Season Ten Dean Winchester, Part Two

98 Comments

1. Thank you, Alice, that is an excellent article, though I’m going to disagree with on some points. And first of all, it’s the similarity between a soulles Sam and Marked Dean. I think there is a huge difference between the two. The first one acted absolutely emotionless and absolutely rationally and pragmatically, he wasn’t even cruel, he was pitiless, he just didn’t care. His goals should be achieved at any cost, and it wasn’t matter to him, if it were any collateral damage. But he didn’t want to kill anybody, if he didn’t rationalised that it was necessary. He didn’t hate anybody, he was just unconcerned. Marked Dean was full of hatred to everybody, including himself.
   My second point of disagreement, is that you seem to see some ulterior motive in Sam’s behaviour when he showed those photos to Dean. I totally disagree that he has other motives, than he said about. He agreed to be killed by his brother in order that other people wouldn’t be hurt, exactly as he said, and gave those photos only for Dean in the hopes that some day he will remember what it meant to be human. He didn’t close his eyes to show that he forgives his brother, not to make him change his mind.
   This summer I was surprised to know, how many people had always tried to find some hidden signs that Sam’s motives are different from those which are shown and when it panned out? By the way, during season 4 and 5 I never even for a minute didn’t admit that Sam would go dark side, though I saw that he might make some tragic mistake, because I took his character on face value and believed what I was shown. And this summer I was shocked to find out how many people sincerely thought that at the end of the day there would be a final battle in season 5 finale between Dean and Sam with Sam on the side of the evil.
   But again, I don’t believe in destiny and firmly believe in free choice, and there was no sign that Sam would choose to be on the side of the evil. I guess, I was just lucky that my beliefs were shared by Kripke.

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   1. [quote]He agreed to be killed by his brother in order that other people wouldn’t be hurt, exactly as he said, and gave those photos only for Dean in the hopes that some day he will remember what it meant to be human. He didn’t close his eyes to show that he forgives his brother, not to make him change his mind.[/quote]

      Disgruntled, I completely agree on this point. I watched that scene at least 25 times (I became a bit obsessed by it!) and I saw exactly what you did. A Sam who was speaking from the heart, who did not want to have his brother became another Cain on earth. A Sam who was willing to pay with his life to prevent that from happening. A Sam who would NEVER be able to see Dean as evil, and who gave him the pictures simply to help ensure that Dean would someday overcome the MOC. I saw not one iota of calculation or manipulation in Sam’s words and actions.

      I also was surprised to read, Alice, that you thought Dean killed Death by accident. I certainly did not see it that way, and I thought Jensen said at a recent Con that his “forgive me” alluded not to his imminent murder of Sam, but rather to his decision NOT to follow through with Death’s plan. Once he decided not to kill Sam, he was compelled to kill Death because Death had said if Dean wouldn’t kill Sam, then he himself would. I think Dean’s look of surprise was not because he had accidentally killed Death, but rather was due to the fact that he had actually succeeded in his attempt. I know there was a lot of disagreement after the episode about Dean’s intentions, but I do think he cleared it up somewhat at that Con. Of course I can’t remember exactly which Con it was. :p

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      1. Hi samanddean I must have re-watched that end scene as often as you and I could see no double standards in the dialogue or in Sam’s emotions. I did find the words “forgive me” confusing. Were they said to Sam as forgive me for trading your life or forgive me for killing you or forgive me for what I’m about to do. I think Jensen played it so well that only he and the script writers no the answer,
         I also heard the same comment at a recent con. A fan asked him the question. Jensen also said that , that particullar moment brought a tear to his eye but he didn’t won’t Demon Dean emotional he wanted to show him more stoic ? so he asked to have the scene re-shot so Jensen could gather himself and show no emotion. The surprise that Dean appeared to show at the end when Death was dead, may have been the fact that he actually went through with it and Death died – I really don’t think he expected it to happen so easely. I think both J’s played their parts well and if it has us questioning some of their actions, it goes to prove how excellent they are as actors. They really have us hook, line and sinker.
         Even though this episode is called “A classic Winchester move” by some people — save one brother no matter the cost. We have to remember if Dean went completely dark as in Knight of Hell dark. He cannot be stopped only by someone else wearing the MOC and having the blade. At least by letting out the darkness the Boys have a chance of defeating it. I believe what Sam did in the end by removing the MOC is the lesser of two evils. By the way what use to the whole story of the MOC was the blade other than to kill Cain and Abbadon it really doesn’t fit to me it’s kinda stupid ??
         And Sam closing his eyes that to me was in preparation for the death blow nothing else – remember we are talking Demon Dean and his irrational so he was all set to kill him

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         1. Jen, wasn’t it a wonderful scene? It was the kind of intense, emotional brother scene that I had been waiting for all season. And I really do agree with this:

            [quote]The surprise that Dean appeared to show at the end when Death was dead, may have been the fact that he actually went through with it and Death died – I really don’t think he expected it to happen so easely.[/quote]

            Because really, who would have thought you could actually kill Death?

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      2. You’re right. Jensen did say that that is the way he was playing it – the I’m sorry was because he wasn’t going to go thru with Deaths request and that by killing Death instead he knew he was giving up his last chance at getting rid of the MOC. Remember Death said Dean’s exile was the ONLY option in order to avoid release of TheDarkness. By taking Death off the board it meant keeping the status quo, that the MOC would remain and his descent would continue. Dean had no idea that the others were working to cast the spell to remove the curse. Jensen played it stoically so as to not reveal the ending. I think his look of surprise was because he actually killed Death. Because it worked.

         I think when Sam placed the pictures down it was for the exact reason he said so that it might help to eventually guide Dean back, to remember once more that he loved and was loved. He was willing to die, he had no idea at what point Rowena and crew were at when it came to casting the spell or if they were even going to be able to do it. But let’s face it, Sam’s not stupid, he was fully aware that by playing that card, knowing the power of what family means to Dean, that it might cut thru the hold the MOC had on him. What is that saying Sam has heard Dean repeat over and over all through the years? There’s got to be another way. I’m sure while Sam was resigned to his own death there had to be that little spark of hope in his heart. That’s not being manipulative, that’s just being a Winchester. 😉

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         1. While I believe Sam’s words and actions should be taken at face value, I think possibly Sam also did entertain the hope that Dean would not actually kill him. Because that has been pretty much a constant in Sam over all of these seasons- faith in his big brother and trust in Dean’s love for Sam.

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      3. I agree that Sam was speaking from the heart. I don’t get the implication of manipulation. He was trying to get through. Since this analysis is on Dean, I didn’t cover what Sam’s thoughts were.

         Also,I’m just calling it as I see it in terms of Dean killing Death. I don’t read con transcripts or watch videos (I wish I had the time). I just interpret whats on the screen. It looks accidental to me, especially since Dean didn’t have to kill Death. Not that it matters at all. Dead is dead, and I’m still not convinced Death is dead. He’s gonna teach Dean one big lesson!

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         1. When I watched the episode the first time live I thought that Dean killed Death on purpose because he threatened to kill Sam. My impression was that Dean (after looking at the pictures) came to himself and realized that he could never kill Sam. And no one else was going to kill him either. The look on Dean’s face after Death was dead I thought was Dean shocked that it really worked.
            Now Jensen has said his portrayal was a little different than my interpretation (however he did mean to kill Death). I was surprised how many fans thought that Dean just missed Sam and accidently killed Death. So I was glad that someone asked Jensen at a convention about it. I would have expected someone at SDCC to ask JC that question but I don’t think anyone did.

            And you are right. I don’t think you can kill Death. I don’t think Dean is going to be his favorite human after this.

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   2. Thanks, I’m glad you enjoyed the analysis!

      I definitely was not implying that Sam’s actions were ulterior. I even went back to my Deeper Look at Sam Winchester to make sure I didn’t say that there either. I just didn’t give much analysis to Sam’s actions here because I was focused on Dean. Sam pulled family card. These guys know each other and how to get through. If Sam had failed, he was willing to die knowing he took his last shot. That is typical Winchester behavior. We’ve seen it constantly through the series from both them. Ulterior sound manipulative. Everything he said came from the heart.

      I’m also not saying Soulless Sam and Demon Dean were exactly the same. What I was saying, and this ran through all parts of the Deeper Looks, was Soulless Sam was Sam at his core without inhibitions and Demon Dean was Dean at his core without those inhibitions. They’re different people, of course they’re going to act differently. But the premise was the same and no doubt that was the parallel they were going for. These writers love them parallels!

      I don’t know, I like seeing more to actions that what’s at face value. It adds those layers that the writers should be putting in their characterization. I used to watch this show avidly for those layers. Now, I watch because I’m determined to stick with this until the end. I’d like to believe Sam’s actions were more than what was shown because plain and simple, it’s more interesting. It’s what good shows do.

      Thanks for your comments.

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      1. Alice, I’m new here, and I haven’t read much in this site, but I enjoyed immensely what I read, especially your old recaps. They were great. Though I don’t always agree with your perspective, but I suppose it is what makes it interesting. What would be the point if everybody agreed with everybody? I’m glad, that I come across your site, it’s so much fun.
         About Soulless Sam and Marked Dean. Yes, the authors often place brothers in each other’s shoes, I agree with you. But I disagree with you in the point, that Soulless Sam and Marked Dean are at their true core without inhibitions. The true core of a person is their soul. So a person without soul is not even a person. If to make an analogy, then Soulless Sam is like a very complicated protein super-computer who (or is it which?) is fed with Sam’s memories and skills. It’s Sam’s rational side, but without his intuition, without what people call the talent, without feelings. And like it is with computers in some ways they are more efficient, in some ways they are not. Certainly, any computer can solve integral equations quicker and more efficiently than humans. But only a human can invent a principal of solving the integral equation. I hope my analogy is clear. The same is with Soulless Sam and Sam. In some ways the Soulless Sam may seem to be more efficient, than Sam, but in fact the opposite is true, because when it comes to the situations which require intuition, talent, feelings, it fails. The Soulless Sam wasn’t dark, or light. He was just empty.
         That’s quite different with Marked Dean. What is happened to him is that his soul remained, but was twisted. His Dark side won. We were shown what happens when the monster who is inside of everybody wins. (And “there is a monster inside of everybody” is one of the themes of season 10). That’s why he may seem not very different from the Dean we know. But it is the superficial view. He is very different, because everything good he has inside him was stifled, though as the finale showed was not dead. And it’s symbolic, that it is his attitude to Sam didn’t allow his good side to die. (And the theme that “we are not human without love” – is one of the themes of the whole show. – “We keep each other human” worked again.)
         The Marked Dean should be compared with Sam on demon blood. There were much more parallels there. Sam said that with demon blood he felt more in control, and Dean said the same. The lure of the power, you know, which can be very appealing, but which should be rejected, first of all for person’s own sake.
         I understand that the central theme of season 10 is the exploration of the Dark Side of the boys. And, Geez, both of them have it. Hence the question Carver posed “Who is the real monster?”, but the question doesn’t contain the answer, we should decide it for ourselves (and none of the boys are), because it is not the question of having the Dark side, that’s the question is of giving in to it. And, at the end of the day none of the boys gave in. Dean almost gave in, but Sam saved him, not only literally (executing the spell), but by the fact that he was able to get through to his true core. That’s why I think that you are wrong, when you are saying that in case of the Soulless Sam and Marked Dean we were shown “their true cores without inhibitions”. I think the opposite is true.
         As for Sam’s motives in the finale, I think that it was exactly as he said, he didn’t stop believing in his brother, even after he had seen what a monster he had turned into, that some day, long after Sam’s death he would be able to overcome the power of the Mark and remember what it meant to be human..

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2. I’m sorry. I put a double negation where I didn’t mean to. I meant: during season 4 and 5 I never even for a minute admitted that Sam would go dark side”. And when I said that Dean was full of hatred I meant the last three episodes. Before that he was struggling with that hatred, though he was gradually losing his fight. IMHO.

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3. I just got done watching S10 (all the way through no hiatus not commercials) and I really did enjoy it. There were only 2 episodes that were unwatchable, although I did like the confessional in PIB, nothing about HACF. As I was watching it occurred to me that I was watching Jared and Jensen portraying their characters in slightly different stories. Jared was playing a Sam that was half out of his mind in his desperate attempt to save his out of control, losing his humanity Dean. Jensen was playing Dean as really concerned about having the Mark, nightmares, killing bad guys without remorse etc. but nothing we haven’t seen from Dean in the past 10 years. There were glimpses of Dean getting worse but not enough for the portrayal of Sam going off the rails. Dean was pretty much Dean. Full of angst and self loathing as always. Roughing up the innocents but not really hurting anyone until The Prisoner. And even then he was kind of just a dick. Rudy was the collateral damage that was supposed to put the nail in the coffin for Dean. I just had a hard time seeing the urgency or desperation from Dean. Jensen did a great job as always but I think the writing or the direction should have taken Dean further. Then Sam’s end of the world solution to the MOC would have been justified.

   I do like these closer looks. They help flesh out the season for me.

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   1. [b]nothing we haven’t seen from Dean in the past 10 years.[/b]
      cheryl42, it seems to me, that Carver emphasised [b]this aspect[/b] (and I’m saying, that it’s only aspect, not the whole Dean) of Dean’s character since the very begining of season 8. Hopefully, Carver did that because he is going to deal with it, not just to throw it in our faces.
      Everybody remembered his snapping at the police department, and his readyness to kill Mrs.Tran, he parallelled him with Randa in Heartache. Remember his words:
      DEAN Wow. Back in business. Got the win. Admit it – feels good, huh? You know, I was thinking about what Randa said about, uh, you know, what it feels like to be a warrior. I get it, man, I do.
      Then his whole dialogue with Cain in Firstborn:
      CAIN
      The mark can be transferred to someone who’s worthy.
      DEAN
      You mean a killer like you?
      CAIN
      Yes.
      Then his dialogue with Flagstaff in Stairway to Heaven:
      FLAGSTAFF
      No. Can I go? I have lives to save.
      DEAN
      Welcome to the club.
      [FLAGSTAFF smirks]
      Something funny?
      FLAGSTAFF
      Not funny “ha ha.” But you thinking you help people — it’s amusing. I help people. A clogged artery here, a tumor there. I do good in this world. You — you believe every problem can be solved with a gun. You play the hero, but underneath the hype, you’re a killer with oceans of blood on his hands. I hate men like you.
      [DEAN stares at her calmly and then leaps to his feet and throws the table between them aside in one swift movement. He throws FLAGSTAFF and her chair backwards but catches them before they hit the ground and instantly has an angel blade to her throat.]
      DEAN
      Honey, there ain’t no other men like me.
      Then there was his dialogue with “evil” Charlie:
      Charlie: Oh, Sam, you’re adorable. You’re not gonna hurt me. In fact, that’s your problem — all good-guy code, no bite. What a waste. And you . . . (turning to Dean) Always letting this albatross hold you back.
      So, it’s only natural that Marked Dean is not completely different from the usual Dean. In my opinion, the Mark only strengthened these aspects of his character, and was gradually stifling all the good ones he has. But I disagree with you, that it wasn’t shown that Dean was getting worse, the facts were there. I think it was just the rendition that wasn’t really good. Mostly it was insipid and bland.There is no place like home and Executioner Song are happy exeptions.
      And I think, that that confessional scene in Paint it Black showed that he understands, that he is barely holding it up:
      “Now, um…recent events, uh, make me think I might be closer to that than I really thought..”

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      1. I suppose. The difficulty for me was that most of the time he was just edgier Dean. Not really going off the rails to the point where Sam needed to make such rash decisions. I mean Sam did some things that put the world at great peril (btw Samgirl here). He got Metatron released (who now has the Demon Tablet and all of it’s powers), he involved Rowena by giving her two of the most powerful books ever known to evil, he got Charlie killed (inadvertently) in his desperate plan, he got Bobby thrown in heaven jail (presumably), he was responsible in large part for letting loose the worst disaster the universe had ever known…all because Dean killed some bad guys and monsters with gusto.

         Now I am not saying that Sam’s journey wasn’t compelling and the best part of S10 for me. Or that Jensen didn’t sell what he was given to work with. I just would have enjoyed it more if Dean had been an unstoppable force of rampaging murder rivaling Cain or Lucifer, the other bearers of the Mark. Then all of Sam’s desperate moves would have made more sense. It just seemed like Jared and Jensen were working off of scripts from different story lines.

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         1. [quote]he got Charlie killed (inadvertently)[/quote]disagree .Sam had no part in it inadvertently or advertently or vertently :)[quote]he got Bobby thrown in heaven jail (presumably)[/quote]disagree.Bobby got thrown in Jail.[quote]he was responsible in large part for letting loose the worst disaster the universe had ever known[/quote]inadvertently.

            What I think was jared was gievn good material (but thematerial Jared was given suffered because of the material Jensen was given) but jensen was given crap to work with and when put together they did not mesh.With POV it was the reverse.Jared got crap and jensen got good material.

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            1. My point which surprisingly is also yours is that Jared was given a storyline of extreme desperation. So much so that he made choices and decisions that put everyone he loved and then the universe (presumably) at great risk. Bobby was resting peacefully in heaven. Sam knew that his plan was going to have consequences for him. He engineered the plan to break Metatron out of jail. He knew that there was going to be a chance that he would get free and create all kinds of havoc. Sam called in Charlie and used every card he had to coerce her into helping with his risky plan. He enlisted the help of Rowena and gave her access to the two most powerful books of evil magic known. This is an extreme description of the events and doesn’t take into account the free will of all those involved. But my point was that Sam was making all of these extreme decisions based on the fact that Dean was out of control and almost lost to him.
               Dean on the other hand was just Dean x2. None of his actions warranted the desperation that we saw in Sam. During this season I got the feeling that Jared was interpreting the script one way and Jensen a different way. One performance didn’t “mesh” with the other. Maybe a directors failing? I don’t know but the season seemed off kilter to me.

            2. [quote] almost lost to him.[/quote]But Dean was lost to him..the minute Dean tried to kill Sam he was lost to him.Now the fact was that Dean was immortal and Sam was not and there is only so much Sam can live.Sam has seen how Dean can slip and there is one thing Dean cannot recover from and that is killing Sam (like Cain).So I could understand why Sam was desperate but Dean’s story was so watered down that it made it seem sam’s desperation unfounded and thus profoundly boring.
               I agree with Sharon that the writers seem unwilling to take risks with Dean.

            3. Oh you will get no argument from me there. The writers take far more risks with Sam’s character. I wish they would give Jensen that same opportunity to really stretch his talents. If they had I would have bought into Sam’s desperation.

            4. [quote]but Dean’s story was so watered down that it made it seem sam’s desperation unfounded and thus profoundly boring.[/quote]

               Yup! And this was the problem w/the story IMO. MOC!Dean didn’t do much of anything this past season that I can recall. He just seemed like regular old Dean to me. Sadly, I can’t remember much about the past season but I guess that means not much stood out.

            5. But wasn’t that the point of the last three seasons? Jensen slowly and carefully drawing out someone who is suffering major PTSD and not getting the right help at the right time? And then dealing that there is no sudden cure and a lot of darkness is dragged out to the open just to get to the point you can cope with it?

               Sure Dean wasn’t exactly too different but just enough not to be right until the end of season 10. That the story of both Dean and Sam actually one of Sam’s growth regards to dealing with Dean’s PTSD which became more extreme since he came back from purgatory and has gradually infected every pore of Dean as time goes on (symbolically through the MoC)

               Sure Sam acted desperately in season 10 and everyone else involved had free will but what triggered the desperation and the acts of bringing others in knowing it was probably to their detriment? And it wasn’t a desperation that like it or not was there before – Sam’s previous MO was to get desperate and then get obsessive about someone having to pay. Losing Dean? He has always loved his brother but he had lost Dean before and tried to get him back but gave up went with Ruby to go after Lilith or moved in with Amelia.

               What was the difference this time – personally I think guilt has a lot to do with it, because Sam knew Dean wasn’t right since he came back from purgatory and when he got the mark and Sam, like it or not handled that situation badly in season 8 and 9 and it wasn’t until he lost Dean that it hit home. Best comparison I can give is a person who doesn’t know what to do when someone they love comes back from Iraq and Afghanistan traumatised but just hopes they will get over it once they get back to normal. Sam wasn’t responsible for the actions that got them to that place but he didn’t deal with Dean’s situation in a way that Dean didn’t feel it was necessary to take on the mark.

               This season, sure you can say isn’t overtly Sam centric except Sam grew a hell of a lot internally this seasons because we actually saw him deal with supporting his brother’s situation overtly and over a period of time instead of what he had done previously. Such as in season 8 be patient and then blown his top, then said he’d help Dean see the light then fall apart and say he was willing to die to prove Dean could have faith in him. Both reactions don’t truly let Dean centre himself in terms of reconnecting with a world he didn’t feel part of, it just told him he was bad for it and kept hurting people. Or in season 9, where Dean did something terrible, sure, but he was as much trying to heal someone he cared about as well as proving to himself he wasn’t toxic to the people he cared about seeing how he kept getting Gadreel to bring people back until Gadreel betrayed him. But Sam held onto his anger too long to actually help Dean when he came back with the mark as we only saw him research the mark once or twice compared to the continual theme it was in season 10 but Dean feeling toxic and not getting he why he was loved was a continual still there – one of the first questions to Cas after cured of the demon was about Sam possibly wanting a divorce, about Sam wanting him gone. Sure you can say that is a lot on Dean about his self loathing but he has to get that idea from somewhere and that is on Sam because as shown Dean was still holding onto the words said to him in the purge and Sam would have to do more than say to a dying man ‘I lied’ to get that through to Dean that there wasn’t any truth in those words.

               The question is how Sam is going to handle the fall out from the darkness. Is he going to explain to Dean that he had Rowena and Cas continue to spell cast when Dean blames himself for the release of it through killing Death and own it or deflect like he did when Dean asked about Lester selling his soul.

            6. I am not talking about the can of worms that the past seasons always brings up. I am talking about this season. After the cure the brothers were not at odds with each other. My issue is that Sam made some really desperate moves. Dean did some questionable things (beating up Dark Charlie was probably the worst) but nothing that warranted the decisions that Sam made. The writing for Sam and Dean didn’t connect for me. In order for Sam to do the things he did I would have expected Dean to be doing the things that Sam did when he was on DB or when he was Soulless but we didn’t see that. Dean was just more angry, more depressed. Nothing we haven’t seen before.

               I wanted to see the writers really take some chances with Dean’s character. I would have liked a Dean that was so scary and so evil that the only choice Sam had was the desperate moves he made. I get it that they went a different way. Sam was making those moves to prevent Dean from becoming that thing. It didn’t quite work for me because of the risks that the writers have taken with Sam in the past. It may make the character unpopular with a some but Jared really nails those types of stories. I wanted to see those types of risks for Dean. Jensen would have rocked it. And his character wouldn’t have suffered for it.

            7. If Dean was so scary and so evil then Sam wouldn’t be saving him. He’d be hunting him because Sam isn’t Dean and even then Dean admitted with soulless Sam that killing him if not resoulled was going to be an option. Sam on the other hand if his brother was so scary and evil and he would eventually hunt him because he couldn’t let Dean had become undo all the good that Dean had previously done. He good as told Crowley that when Crowley made the dog comment.

               Also with Demon Dean they made a point when Sam first found out Dean was a demon that Sam knew that Dean wasn’t actively going out of his way to hunt down victims. He killed if they attacked him.
               That was the point of the slow burn. Dean wasn’t so evil but he was on the edge not just this season but for all three, Sam’s desperation and motivation tied into not just this season but the last two or the hitting the dog joke wouldn’t have been brought up something had to have changed in Sam’s MO – the experiences of the past two seasons, getting that Dean wasn’t simply able to snap out of his trauma like Sam expected him to, like he always had before to the point that Sam realised he lost his brother in part because he hadn’t done what was required to save him. That none of them really had.

               As for the beating of Dark Charlie, it was done to prove not just one points but two – how much Dean had been holding back but also to show that even people who care about Dean underestimate that side of him. Like it or not Dark Charlie wasn’t the first ‘female’ we have seen Dean hit, just they tend to be bad guys/demons and Jensen is so good at not crossing that line to make Dean look like it is anything other than business so we let it fly.

               But what was dark Charlie at that point – she was an adversery attacking him. She attacked Dean as thinking she was on an equal footing and played on her personal knowledge of him to try and unsettle him. Just MoC Dean after a point wouldn’t restrain himself he put her down just like he would anyone who attacked him, even if they were in a female package. But he still held back as Charlie was in a position that she could get up, say unlike Abaddon who was also female and Dean went postal on her corpse.

            8. I personally agree with Cheryl42. He played a role in Charlie’s death and Bobby’s outcome. He didn’t cause their misfortunes but he played a role.

            9. In Bobby’s case If I squint much I can come to an agreement but in case of Charlie no , I am of the POV that Sam had no part to play.She is a hunter ,helping other hunters comes with the territory.Also Sam laid out what he was doing to her no deception there.She is an adult.her Choice to leave the safe place and go somewhere where it was more dangerous.As and adult who was not decieved and someone who entered into the situation of her free will and then left the safer place to a dangerous one it falls on her and her alone.

            10. Charlie was no hunter!

            11. The minute she went off to find the book and her uber ninja skills with the stynes made her one..That was a battle she herself wanted to be part of.there was no deception there

            12. We were told she was a ‘hunter’, she may believe she was a hunter, but really we saw little evidence of her putting a case together and following through herself. We had her declare she had taken out a ghost and a vamp but never saw it her do it on her own.

                Her first case – Dean took her because Sam was ill. She was all over the shop.
                Her going for the book – Sam told her about it.
                Her going to Oz – Dorothy gave her the opportunity for the grand adventure she was craving
                Dark/light Charlie – consequence of her going to Oz and she needed to the boys help to get put back together and deal with her dark half and even then she over estimated her ability. Dark Charlie thought she could take out Dean. She was sorely proven wrong. We don’t know exactly how Dark Charlie won that war, but to end a war it is unlikely that it was solely fighting on a big battlefield. More like with her brains taking out those she felt hurt Dorothy.
                Her ninja skills – they weren’t exactly great on screen and she only fought when she couldn’t run. Plus we’ve seen Jodie fight too and we don’t call her a hunter.

                There was lots of declarations about Charlie, just like Sam declaring Dean was losing it but not much actual evidence of it on screen. She may have thought she was a hunter but Tracey the girl who we saw in hotpants in season 9 was more together about what she could and couldn’t physically do than Charlie did as was Garth. Charlie was a nerd wish fulfilment character.

            13. This is where we differ while you say – we were told she was a ‘hunter’.
                I say- we were told she was a hunter.
                Charlie is not a main character so I do not expect and frankly do not want to see the ghost or the vamp she took out .her telling it is enough for me.

                And as far as Sam’s declaration I agree with Sam’s declaration as he has seen Dean coming after Sam with an axe so I am okay with it .YMMV.

            14. We were told she was hunter, we were told she was special, we were told she was the best thing since sliced bread and at some point with all of that some evidence is required other than people saying she is while Charlie is adorkable in the corner. But if that is good enough for you fine.

                As for Sam’s declaration – Demon Dean came after him not Dean and not between Book of the damned and the calling Charlie in again. If coming after your brother homicidally was something that the Winchesters took as the end of the world Dean would have had Sam in a strait jacket back in season 1. Seeing Dean voluntarily eat an egg white omelette would have been more of a sign of Dean losing it than that.

            15. [quote]We were told she was hunter, we were told she was special, we were told she was the best thing since sliced bread and at some point with all of that some evidence is required other than people saying she is while Charlie is adorkable in the corner.[/quote]We were told she was an hunter .every thing else is up to the viewers I did not find her adorable ,adorkable or the best thing since sliced bread.Her death did noot register as much as bobby’s ,ellen’s or jo’s with me.

                [quote]Demon Dean came after him not Dean[/quote]But Demon Dean was at time who Dean was.[quote] If coming after your brother homicidally was something that the Winchesters took as the end of the world Dean would have had Sam in a strait jacket back in season 1.[/quote]Yes when the ghost zapped Sam .Sam did not go to the Ghost and say please zap me.the solution for that was not Sam in a strat jacket but destroying the ghost which they did …now the solution is not putting Dean ina straight jacket but Finding a solution to MoC.Which Dean could not control.which happened when he came after Sam .

            16. [quote]Her death did noot register as much as bobby’s ,ellen’s or jo’s with me.[/quote]

                No her death didn’t register as much as the above except we are told that it is supposed to. That is what gets me – Jo and Ellen, we didn’t need to be told they were family they just were. We didn’t need to be told they were hunting, we got them reintroduced on both were on the road. We didn’t need to be continually told. With Charlie we did.

                With Garth we didn’t need to be continually told her was a hunter, he could research, he just did. But Charlie we have to be told she is the smartest person in the room that Dean thinks of her as a little sister. All the telling makes me doubt, so just see her as a wishfullfilment character for Robbie Thomson.

                As for Demon Dean being who Dean was when he attacked Sam. Two things – that happened before book of the damned, before he beat up dark Charlie so why exactly does that mean Dean is worse than the last time Charlie saw him. Second – Sam may not have gone to the ghost who zapped him but the act was the same and so not exactly a sign that Dean, just like the time he beat Dean when he was full of Demon blood that he willingly drank or Lucifer beat Dean to a pulp when wearing Sam who willingly said yes too.

                Sam saying Dean can’t control the mark and giving demon Dean as the evidence doesn’t prove human Dean was losing it while wearing the mark at the point that Sam called Charlie in Dark Dynasty but he says Dean is getting worse and if they don’t do something basically now with the book Dean says they shouldn’t use that Dean will be gone.

                .[quote]SAM: Okay, so, here’s the thing . . . Dean is not getting any better. I feel like if we don’t get the Mark off his arm, it’s gonna eat him up.
                CHARLIE: I get it, but what are we gonna do about it?
                SAM: I got ahold of a codex which is sort of a-a collection of supernatural code-breaking tools, and it should help crack The Book of the Damned.
                CHARLIE: That would be awesome if the book, you know, actually existed.
                SAM: It does. Uh, I, um . . . I swapped it out right before it looked like I burned it.
                CHARLIE: Okay. Well, Dean wanted it burned, so is he pissed? Of course. He doesn’t know. Geez! The two of you.
                SAM: Charlie, he’s not himself. He’s not. He would try and stop me. He’s given up. Look, I called in an expert to . . . to use the codex, but it turns out it’s sort of . . . encoded also, so I thought you might help . . . move things along faster.
                CHARLIE: Behind Dean’s back. After Dean told us the stupid book would kick our asses if we mess with it. I . . . is there any part of this that doesn’t reek? Did I mention you’ll be working with one of the most dangerous witches in the world?
                CHARLIE: I don’t know, Sam.
                SAM: As far as I can tell, this is . . . Our only shot at saving him. If we don’t take it . . . He’s gone.[/quote]

            17. [quote]Jo and Ellen, we didn’t need to be told they were family they just were. [/quote]Yes.while these characters got the customery vitriol the female characters got that time when they died it even swayed them .They were family whether they (those viewers) liked it or not.
                I personally am not a fan of Garth.While he was not a skilled hunter he was a hunter.[quote]As for Demon Dean being who Dean was when he attacked Sam. [/quote]But that tells me why sam was so desperate as time went on .Dean was an immortal being and Sam was not .he would not always be there for Dean he is after all human.

                The acct was the same but the build up was not the build up was similar to dean and the coin episode.It was not something which Dean sought or asked for.
                I am sympethetic of the person who had something slipped in his drink not the one who drank of his free will and then drove a vehicle ..One person was violated (not talking abt physical )and the other was not .The acts being same does not make the things same…Gandhiji and kasab where both jailed but for very different reasons.
                [quote]Sam saying Dean can’t control the mark and giving demon Dean as the evidence doesn’t prove human Dean was losing it while wearing the mark at the point that Sam called Charlie in Dark Dynasty but he says Dean is getting worse and if they don’t do something basically now with the book Dean says they shouldn’t use that Dean will be gone.
                [/quote]It happened .Dean killed the frankenboy.would I have liked more POV from Sam ..That has been my complaint for some time and if they follow the same trend I do not think I will get it ..so I work with what I have got.

            18. [quote]Yes.while these characters got the customery vitriol the female characters got that time when they died it even swayed them .They were family whether they (those viewers) liked it or not.
                I personally am not a fan of Garth.While he was not a skilled hunter he was a hunter.[/quote]

                The writing for Jo got much better after she turned up again in season 5. Almost immediately the vitriol disappeared after her first reappearance compared to her appearances in season 2. Ellen to my knowledge was almost universally loved by fans. As for Garth, the boys didn’t need to tell us he was special or no speeches were made about him. But he was a hunter without that. Charlie came with the bigging up and her declarations she was a hunter – Garth just got on with it even when he had the mick taken out of him.

                [quote]But that tells me why sam was so desperate as time went on .Dean was an immortal being and Sam was not .he would not always be there for Dean he is after all human.[/quote]

                I am not sure where the drink analogy comes in – Dean at know point knew that taking the mark would end in him becoming a demon. He was as you said slipped something into his drink. He knew he was having a drink just not the rest of it. But after he became Dean again he was Dean. Just like Sam drinking the blood and saying yes to Lucifer and knowingly hunting without a soul so was without compass and the inability to use emotion could be said was knowingly drinking and driving but we treat him as Sam when he got his soul back.

                The losing Dean was a slow burn over three seasons but in season 10 Sam continually acted if it was immanent after Dean being cured of the demon with little real evidence of a really dark Dean rearing his head every other episode. Sam’s desperation acted was to do with the guilt he felt about how Dean had gotten to that point and he hadn’t done everything he could do to prevent it last time. But Dean between Demon Dean and Duck Dynasty there wasn’t over the edge moment that was the Dean but he barely came back from that Charlie saw. He had the same potential to go over the edge as he did in season 9 when Sam did very little about the mark. Which says more about Sam’s state of mind than Dean’s situation with the mark.

                The thing that sent human Dean over the edge to kill the Stynes though – Charlie getting tubbed. An event that was the end result of Sam telling Charlie that Dean was almost over the edge and they were losing him if they didn’t act know so getting her invested in decoding the book. Sam telling us Dean was going over the edge and they needed to do something became in the end a self fulling prophesy as if Charlie hadn’t been so invested in saving Dean because Sam was telling her ‘its now or we lose him’ she wouldn’t have gotten herself stuck in that bathroom.

            19. [quote]Dean at know point knew that taking the mark would end in him becoming a demon. He was as you said slipped something into his drink.[/quote]This where we disagree.Dean did not want to know what was the drink made of.He was offered the knowledge of it he simply did not want.A conscious choice not coerced in any way.[quote]Just like Sam drinking the blood and saying yes to Lucifer and knowingly hunting without a soul so was without compass and the inability to use emotion could be said was knowingly drinking and driving but we treat him as Sam when he got his soul back.[/quote]
                sam was given blood by Azazel that is why he was so . so no Sam was forcefully made to drink.But yes later on it was his choice to drink.sam saying yes to Lucifer ? yes that was concious choid=ce to save the world and then both of them did while Lucifer was imprisoned in sam.Soulless was all on Castiel.this is my POV.[quote]in season 10 Sam continually acted if it was immanent after Dean being cured of the demon with little real evidence of a really dark Dean rearing his head every other episode.[/quote]sam knew the solution he had for Dean’s affliction was temporary so he wanted to find a permanent cure.A finite being trying to cure something infinite,I can understand his desperation as in I can understand why he was so desperate.[quote]Sam’s desperation acted was to do with the guilt he felt about how Dean had gotten to that point and he hadn’t done everything he could do to prevent it last time.[/quote]For me Sam’s desperation was to do with getting hs brother out of an horrible situation primarily.[quote]He had the same potential to go over the edge as he did in season 9 when Sam did very little about the mark. Which says more about Sam’s state of mind than Dean’s situation with the mark.[/quote]Exactly.In season 9 sam had his own issues to go through.Sam along woth being Dean’s brother is himself a fully formed human being being who was viollated by an angel with the help from his brother who he trusted.So yes it was similar to when Dean did not want to hear abt Lucifer’s plan in season 5 .I do not blame Dean for not dropping everything and come running.Because Dean had to sort out the issues he had and it was necessary.I want Dean and Sam together but it has to not be forced .if they have issues ,then I want them to take time to deal with it and then resolve it .Rather than let it fester .So I was Okay with both instances I have stated it.same with Scarecrow.[quote]The thing that sent human Dean over the edge to kill the Stynes though – Charlie getting tubbed. An event that was the end result of Sam telling Charlie that Dean was almost over the edge and they were losing him if they didn’t act know so getting her invested in decoding the book. [/quote]No.This is also where I disagree.It all started with Dean taking on the mark.But this was because Charlie wanted to get the book and made enemies with the Stynes .She was not forcd to get the book .It was her choice and as I have said ealier being a hunter and being their friend it was not surprising that she wanted to help them.But her uber ninja skills saved her then but it looked like she had retrograde amnesia or something (This was one of the problems I had with season 10 …not Charlie’s death but how she died).So no i do not blame Sam for Charlie’s death.He was speaking the truth when he said he was losing him.the end point of MoC was he was losing Dean.
                She would have been dead long bak as she was not in a protected place not this bathroom then some other bathroom, she had made powerful enemies without their help

            20. [quote]This where we disagree.Dean did not want to know what was the drink made of.He was offered the knowledge of it he simply did not want.A conscious choice not coerced in any way.[/quote]

                You had Crowley in the very last episode of season 9 telling Dean he hadn’t told him everything and that he had hoped it was true. So no Dean didn’t get offered the information you claim. Crowley said he was omitting it from Dean and everyone. So in fact your conclusion using your analogies then turns into something that is down right scary.

                Crowley down right says that he knew but didn’t tell and wasn’t planning on telling so Dean didn’t know about the possibility of the mark being the thing that turned Cain into a Demon, he was as you put it slipped something in his drink by Crowley. He knew the drink itself was bad but he didn’t know about the mickey but still everything that happens to him and his family and friends is because of him and not the person hoping that the thing he withheld was true? Using your analogy the person who took the alcoholic drink with something in it is responsible for what happened to them and what the reaction of all around afterwards.

                Scary analogy, god that is a scary, and now I am done because I am not even going down that road!

            21. are you ignoring the conversation Dean had with Cain in First Born?

                DEAN Can I use it to kill that bitch?
                CAIN Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.
                DEAN Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at “kill the bitch”.

            22. And are you forgetting

                CROWLEY
                Your brother, bless his soul, is summoning me as I speak. Make a deal, bring you back. It’s exactly what I was talking about, isn’t it? It’s all become so… expected. You have to believe me. When I suggested you take on the Mark of Cain, [b]I didn’t know this was going to happen. Not really. I mean, I might not have told you the entire truth. But I never lied. I never lied, Dean.[/b] That’s important. It’s fundamental. But…there is one story about Cain that I might have… forgotten to tell you. Apparently, he, too, was willing to accept death, rather than becoming the killer the Mark wanted him to be. So he took his own life with the Blade. He died. Except, as rumor has it, the Mark never quite let go. You can understand why I never spoke of this. Why set hearts aflutter at mere speculation? It wasn’t until you summoned me… No, it wasn’t truly until you left that cheeseburger uneaten…that I began to let myself believe. Maybe miracles do come true.

            23. [quote]are you ignoring the conversation Dean had with Cain in First Born?[/quote]Looks like it

            24. Alice, I think Sam did some things which he can be blamed for, but Charlie’s death is not on him. Charlie was the target of Stynes long [b]before[/b] Sam asked her for help. And most likely she would have been killed sooner but for Sam. He was the only person who did something for her safety. It wasn’t his fault she ran away. imagine the situation if, for example, Kevin would have have been killed when he ran away from the Winchesters in season 8. Would they be to blame? Charlie decided to go after that book when Dean beat her bloody, to help him. Charlie’s death is more on Dean.

            25. [quote]Charlie decided to go after that book when Dean beat her bloody, to help him. Charlie’s death is more on Dean.[/quote]

                How is that logical?? Dean told her and Sam not to play with the book when they got it. Told Sam to burn it while Charlie was in the room. Told them to destroy it and that it wasn’t going to help and in fact going to do more harm than good, but her death is more on Dean than Sam?

                Please – Sam was the one who told her about the book in the first place, not Dean and he called her to decode the book after the whole Dean saying don’t and she didn’t talk to Dean about it, then she ran off into the night because she couldn’t handle being in a room with a ‘mean girl’ and got killed. Sam brought her in to work with the mother of the king of hell after getting the codex to decode it from a magical security system almost killed him, Dean and had killed everyone else it had touched. And that was the nice piece of magic compared to that coming out of the book of the damned and we didn’t see him filling her in on those facts. Just that Dean was getting worse with no evidence of it other than Sam’s word.

                Sure Charlie running off is on her but bringing her while having more idea of the danger than she did – that is more on Sam than the guy who told both of them that it would be better to lock him in a dungeon for all eternity rather than poke the stupid book with a stick to help him.

            26. double post

            27. Just honestly answer the question. Why did Stynes kill her? Because she agreed to help Sam, or because she found a book and killed one of the Stynes, which happened [b]before[/b] Sam asked her for help? Need quotes? Or you blame Sam that he merely mentioned that bookin There is no Place like home? Or, certainly it’s much bigger sin, than to beat a woman bloody, no doubt, who by your own words: “Her ninja skills – they weren’t exactly great on screen”. She suggested help herself, at that point Sam didn’t ask her anything, and suggested it after Dean almost killed her.
                CHARLIE: Good? Bad? I think I’ll just settle for balanced. (Dean watches from the table and then goes back to his research) Anything about the Mark?
                SAM: Yeah, maybe. I found this book. It’s a lore book — “The Book of the Damned.”
                CHARLIE: Sounds legit.
                SAM: It’s in a library somewhere in Tuscany. It might be a dead end, but I figured…
                CHARLIE: I’ll go check it out.

            28. The Stynes killed her because they were tracking the book and Dean and Sam pissed off one because he lost his arm.

                Charlie’s death was more to push buttons as there was no evidence that they tortured her to see where the book was or that they took her tablet. Her death was too quick to say that Charlie’s death was actually about Charlie at that point and not about Stumpy Stynes pride about his arm and getting quick revenge for his dead family member. And like it or not Felicia Day doesn’t hold weapons convincingly and yet they want us to believe Charlie was an urban ninja??

                As for blaming Sam, you blamed Dean for her going after the book – how did she know how to go for the book. Sam told her about it just after Dean was beating himself up about dark Charlie and Charlie was beating herself up about what Dark Charlie and Light Charlie did. It wasn’t Dean who said about the book or Charlie came up with it – Sam did. Sam mentioning the book and Tuscany to Charlie gave her a sodding ‘redemption quest that could help in saving her friend’. But that is on Charlie for going on it as she could have said no. But Sam knowing Charlie, would know a Larper who feels she failed those she cared about and that it was a way she could help Dean would take it that way. He introduced her to the concept of the book so he bares more responsibility about her interaction with it than Dean does and that includes her killing the Styne who went after her when she found the thing.

                As for beating a woman to a bloody pulp. Like it or not Charlie is not the first woman who Dean has hit in the show or even Sam has hit and killed. They just tend to be demons or monsters so we let it fly. But guess what they are still female, so if we condone one fight with a female then we have to condone all if they are similar circumstances and with Dark Charlie it kind of was. She was attacking Dean as she thought she was on an equal footing and could take him down, guess what she found she wasn’t when Dean let loose a little and she got hurt. If he had let lose a lot then we would have had a Dark Charlie corpse in the same way Abaddon had become mince meat. But I see no-one saying Dean shouldn’t have fought Abaddon because she was wearing Josie.

            29. [b] It wasn’t Dean who said about the book or Charlie came up with it – Sam did. Sam mentioning the book and Tuscany to Charlie gave her a sodding ‘redemption quest that could help in saving her friend’.[/b]
                So, Sam is to blame, because he mentioned that he had found the reference to that book.
                OK, following your logic Dean is to blame for his mother death, without him Azazel wouldn’t have known about her existence, wouldn’t have bled in Sam’s mouth, and all those people who died in the show would have been alive. The conclusion: Dean is to blame for everything. 😀 But fans should be gratefull, I guess. 😀

            30. No Sam is more responsible for introducing the book and the Stynes to Charlie than Dean was. Charlie’s actions during that are on her.

                But hey by your logic Dean is to blame for everything and nothing will change that. Nice balanced view to be holding.

            31. I was just following your logic. If a casual remark about some book in some library makes Sam responsible for Charlie death. Then what makes of Dean his revealing to Azazel Mary’s and Sam’s existence? Without him he wouldn’t have even known about their existence. Rewatch In the Beginning. But I put smileys to show that I wasn’t serious and really don’t think so. I think, that Dean can’t be responsible for telling Azazel about Sam and all the events that followed after 1973 and I also think that Sam is not responsible for all the events which followed after his telling Charlie about that book. You see? I’m logical. I just don’t change my principles according to which brother is under consideration

            32. Well to be fair locking Dean up for all eternity wasn’t going to help either. Lucifer eventually got out. The MOC needed to be resolved. I actually liked all the desperate measures that Sam, Cas and Charlie went through. I just would have liked for Dean to have shown that it was necessary.

            33. I agree, I wish that they would have shown a Dean that would have given us a reason to believe it was necessary. But as I keep saying I think the idea was a three year arc where Sam wakes up to the fact that he hasn’t dealt with the issue of Dean’s major PTSD. The execution was just bad though.

                I agree that the mark of Cain needed resolved but without that lack of necessity kind of made Cas and Sam’s actions the thing that brought it to a head rather than the Mark showing itself as requiring desparate acts to prevent Demon Dean. And their acts could be seen as doing with their feelings as much as wanting to help Dean – Cas not wanting to be the one who is left with the task of dealing with the shell of his former friend and Sam because he felt his inaction previously impacted on Dean’s decision making that lead to Demon Dean.

                But my point still remains the bloke who told Charlie about the book and how it would cure Dean then called her to decode the sodding thing is more responsible for her interactions with it and the Stynes than the one who basically said ‘it’s bad, it’s bad, can we bury it, burn it but it’s scary bad and we shouldn’t touch it -EVER!!!!’ Even if his plan to contain the Mark without the book was doomed to failure at some point.

            34. Sam didn’t know the book would cure Dean. He just said he found a lead that might be promising. Charlie offered to go find it. Sam knew nothing about the Styne family. No one did.

                I think Sam is suffering from PTSD as well as Dean. Cas took the crazy not the memories of the thousand years of torture. Gadreel may have left the building but he also left the images of slaughtering Kevin and Abner. I think both of these guys have been through the ringer.

                And yes my point exactly. Sam was acting way too panicky compared to how Dean was acting. If Dean was the embodiment of the Darkness and was slaughtering innocent humans and creating demon armies than yes desperate times. Dean wasn’t acting that way. So why the extreme urgency.

            35. [quote]So why the extreme urgency.[/quote]

                Because they guys had been through the ringer – Sam having PTSD and no soul and demon blood and Lucifer and Jess etc, etc, Cas taking in the souls of millions, being guilty for it, going mad, being brainwashed etc etc etc. What happens when these really impact on these guys – Dean drops his overt issues and tries to help the best he can after realising he has been a bit of a dick and it is bigger than he thought it was. This time, in season 8 Dean came back from purgatory, found he wasn’t searched for, feeling guilty about Cas – he’s traumised and it gets worse but there is no real dropping of stuff by Cas and Sam because Dean’s issues don’t impact theirs.

                They aren’t responsible for Dean’s issues, they have their own and then look what happens – Dean takes on the mark and they are still focused on Metatron and Abaddon. Sam going nuts in season 7 had little to do with Dick Roman but Dean and Cas dealt with it while dealing with the Levi’s. Keeping Cas safe in purgatory even though he’s cuckoo is Dean’s thing even though he is fighting for their lives every moment. Cas told Dean that it wasn’t his responsibility to have gotten Cas home or keep him safe but still Dean thought Cas needed him and he was there. Sam gets ill in season 8 and Dean nurses and cooks and hovers even though Sam hates it and in the end he is there to talk Sam down. But in Season 8 and 9 Dean’s issues, his PTSD isn’t the thing Cas or Sam really focus on other things are and then what happens dealing with Metatron which they have all agreed is more important Dean gets killed. Sure Dean with the mark is their best shot at Metatron, but Dean didn’t get the mark to go after Metatron and it was never stated he was the only way. In fact Sam did state at one point to get the blade away from Dean that they could keep it for the ‘big bads’. Like the mark was there to stay and the blade was the problem not Dean with the mark.

                So hell yes the urgency is that Sam is feeling a hell of a lot of guilt about previously letting Dean down, that Dean got to a place where there would have been no way to talk him down from that fight, that Sam let Dean walk into it and that Dean was in a place where one of the last things he said before he died was him questioning about Sam being okay with Dean being dead and then turned into the thing that Dean has railed against all his life. Doesn’t mean Sam didn’t have PTSD it is his guilt about not actually getting that his brother’s PTSD was in a place that needed a to be dealt with before it got to a head and he doesn’t want to risk it again.

                As for the book – Sam didn’t know it could cure Dean but he was saying it was a lead. A lead Charlie wouldn’t have known about if he hadn’t said about it. He introduced her to the idea of it. So is more responsible for Charlie’s interactions with it than the other person in the room who didn’t say a word about to her at that point then told her that it was bad news the time he held it.

            36. Dean was totally stoked when Charlie found the book. When they learned it was a spell book that could remove any curse ever made he was singing, planning beach trips. He didn’t know it was evil until he held it. Charlie didn’t know it was evil, Sam didn’t know it was evil. Not until Dean held it. Dean who was sitting in the bunker when Sam mentioned the book didn’t say hey don’t go after it I feel that it is evil. The book was supposed to be in a library in Italy. Sam didn’t know it was in a destroyed monastery or that it was written by a crazed nun. No I don’t buy that Sam was soley responsible for Charlie finding the book and then pursued by an evil family. Everyone was on board and no one knew what the book entailed.

            37. [quote]I think Sam did some things which he can be blamed for, but Charlie’s death is not on him. Charlie was the target of Stynes long before Sam asked her for help. And most likely she would have been killed sooner but for Sam. He was the only person who did something for her safety. It wasn’t his fault she ran away. imagine the situation if, for example, Kevin would have have been killed when he ran away from the Winchesters in season 8. Would they be to blame? Charlie decided to go after that book when Dean beat her bloody, to help him. Charlie’s death is more on Dean.[/quote]

                Cheryl this is the post that I was replying to. The one that said that Dean was to blame for her death where as Sam had been the one to try and not get her killed.

                And I say sorry no, Sam introduced the concept of a book called the book of the damned to her and he didn’t go with her when she went to find it and he was the one that knew she was trying to decode it and didn’t call Cas to let him know that the threat level against the book and Charlie was upped when the Stynes turned up and attacked Dean. Now Dean may have been stoked about her finding it but he and someone ‘had’ to stay with Dean but he is not the one who introduced her to the concept of it not Dean and he didn’t know to that there was any reason to check in on Charlie as he thought the book was gone. It was Sam calling her to help put her back in the Stynes crosshairs.

                Now Charlie is responsible for the actions she took to get it, she could have called them the minute the Stynes were on her tail in Italy but she didn’t. She is responsible for running off. But to say that because Dean took the mark he is more responsible than Sam and Sam is the reason she survived so long when he was the introduced her to the book which was the catalyst for the Stynes involvement. Even if he couldn’t have forseen that exact turn of events, he is Sam Winchester, it was called the book of the damned, he knows that isn’t good.

            38. I’m not sure what that post has to do with me. I never said nor do I believe that Dean was at fault for Charlie’s death. I have said I think numerous times that Sam is the one who coerced Charlie into helping him decode the codex. Now Sam did leave Charlie in the care of Cas who she stupidly ran away from so most of her demise is on her. But Sam did bring her in to the plan.

                As far as looking for the book in the first place all Sam knew was that it was a book that might be able to help them and it was in Italy. That was all the information that he had. Charlie jumped on it instantly. I don’t think that counts as Sam getting her involved with an evil book sought after by an international evil family of psychotic killers. No one knew anything about that until Charlie called them from the “payphone”.

            39. Cheryl I am just saying that this post from disgruntled started this part of the thread and my logic.

                Her statement that Dean is more to blame and Sam was the one keeping her safe doesn’t hold water as it states Dean was culpable for Charlie and Sam wasn’t in really involved in fact he was the hero who tried to keep her safe. Sure they aren’t responsible for her death, but Dean being in such a low place he made the bone headed move to the mark doesn’t make him responsible for it either. If we are going to say that, which appears that disgruntled is saying then Dean is responsible for Lester selling his soul, even though he wasn’t there, and Rowena casting a spell on Cas and her killing Oscar. He is responsible for all darkness and everything that happens since. But that negates everyone elses agency including Sam’s. It makes Sam a silly little damsel in distress who tries and fails and really needs his hand held and I can’t agree with that because it also makes Sam a special snowflake which he isn’t, plus it blames Dean for other people’s decisions and not them. But that aside it making Sam a special snow flake makes him a really boring character/plot device and I don’t want to find him that as it means anything that he maybe responsible for I’m supposed to say isn’t his fault as he resets every season to become a plot device to whatever Dean causes him to do even when Dean and everyone else around him says it will blow up in their faces and then that happens.

                I am agree that Sam isn’t responsible for her death, her running off or the actions of the Stynes or forced her to go but still he brought the book up and kept going with it when him and Charlie were told not to use it by Dean called her to decode it. It gives him a little more interaction with Charlie’s end than Dean in a lot of ways, even though I really do get he was desparate for me it is to do with him feeling guilty about not getting or doing more to help Dean with his issues pre getting killed as I have said before. But the way he does it ties in to the side of Sam that has been there before. The part that takes after their dad. But also I have to remember he is Sam Winchester, he may not have known if the book would have worked or about the monastery or the Stynes but he knows the book is incredibly powerful and is called the book of the damned – he’s smart even though he is desperate and there was little warning to Charlie to be careful. I get the desperation I do and I am still not saying he is responsible for her death or her running but can you see the likes of Bobby sending Garth for a book called that? Or even the boys without instructions to call every step of the way or a warning about anything connected to the research he’s found about it? This is Charlie who’s dark half thought it could get past Dean Winchester by taking him on in a physical fight – the woman maybe smart and yes feeling like she should be helping her friend who is needing it but if part of her thought she could do that in a one on one fight there is a deluded side to her that Sam should be factoring in when he tells her about the book.

            40. I understand Disgruntled’s logic though. If Dean doesn’t make the reckless move to take on the MOC without knowing the consequences then none of these events would have occurred. If Dean hadn’t walked away from Sam on the bridge and inexplicably run off with Crowley no one’s life would have been put in danger. The universe really is trying to tell the Winchesters they are stronger together than they are apart. They tend to make bone headed decisions when they are separated.

            41. By that logic you can also say it is all Sam’s fault for listening to Dean and not closing the gates of Hell as Abaddon wouldn’t have been able to make a power play to become Queen of a Kingdom she couldn’t get to or get reinforcements to from. She wouldn’t have been a present danger but we don’t go ‘oh Sam is to blame for all the damage every demon did for not closing the gates of hell’ Even though you could say him dropping closing the gates because Dean asked when he was in a position to do so and giving Crowley a connection to humanity was a trigger for the events that allowed Abaddon to make her move. Also he wouldn’t have been alive for Gadreel to possess and to kill Kevin,

                It is swings and round abouts and again negates each brothers personal agency and that is the important thing. That is the thing that makes the brothers stronger together their free will builds on each other. Yes, Dean took the mark and said when they got the book, not to use it. Sam used it and brought Charlie in. Is Dean culpable for the mark yes, is he cupable for the decisions others made to cure him – no they are are. He isn’t to blame for that because of that tricky thing called FREE WILL.

            42. I suppose we could go back to Mary’s deal or the fact that Dean turned the YED onto her scent in the first place. Yes I was just pointing out that every thing has a cause and affect. But Free Will is one of the most important themes of the show. That is why Charlie is responsible for every move she made. From going after the book to running away from Cas to not listening to Dean when he told to give up what she had.

                Same goes for every character on the show. No one is blameless and no one is entirely to blame. Now I also believe that Sam had a part in involving her with Rownena but Charlie could have declined any time she wanted to. She didn’t. Because she wanted to save Dean (who recklessly took on the MOC without reading the instructions first)

                Everyone played a part. Not just Sam.

                That is why I am personally so excited that there doesn’t appear to be a blame game going on next season. Enough already!

            43. [quote]I suppose we could go back to Mary’s deal or the fact that Dean turned the YED onto her scent in the first place.[/quote]

                And not the fact that the angels and God had gotten Mary and John together in the first place and Lucifer had sent the YED to Lawerence for his special child and was buying souls causing the Campbells to turn up as well before Dean ended up in 73? Or that Samuel took her along with him and Dean after Dean told all of them to get out of town? Or Mary going along or for actually making the deal knowing what she was making it with. Or Cas who took Dean all the way back and who told Dean when he got back that Destiny couldn’t be changed so his family was always going to be cursed, but without Dean wouldn’t have been in 73 in the first place as Dean didn’t have a tardis of his own.

                As you said it is cause and effect but even when the blame game isn’t played in the show there does seem to be a blame game on this site and it kind of goes way past cause and effect. It seems to turn into Sam is an innocent getting dragged into things that Dean has caused and without Dean none of it would have been caused. For me it kind of takes away from Sam and makes him look like a fool for sticking around in the show.

                Now Charlie is responsible for her own actions including running off and ending up in that bathroom – I’ve said that in every post but if you are going to look at the cause and effect of Charlie’s journey with the book you start with the person who mentioned it, not the one that didn’t which means Charlie’s dealings with the book like it or not begin with Sam which is why I answered Disgruntled’s post about Dean being more culpable than everyone else because I’m tired of the blame game and whitewashing. Because it snowballs and goes on and on then it gets thrown back to well Dean is to blame for the YED getting Mary’s scent.

            44. Fazzie I was agreeing with you. Free Will is one of the most important themes of the show. EK is the one who put in all the backstory to set up the dominos so he could knock them down. Since manipulation also seems to have been a huge factor in the brothers lives I’m not sure God won’t eventually have a hand in all of this. In fact I can imagine Death and God idly playing an apocalyptic game with Sam and Dean as the catalysts for every outcome.

                I don’t think Sam praying to God is going to have the affect he was hoping for.

            45. And the reason the book of the damned was mentioned was because of the Mark of Cain on Dean’s arm. Sam wasn’t just talking about it in isolation. You see, you could do this forever.

                There is a culture of blame on the show, there always has been, from the very first episode. In season 4, 5 and 8 it was particularly bad but there has not been a season on the show so far where attributing blame has not played a part, even in a minor way. It’s only natural that would translate to fans playing the blame game as well. And all parties do it, yourself included.

                Sam is wholly responsible for the actions he took in season 10. Looking at the promo clips, he has taken full responsibility for them and as he has done numerous times before, he will clean up that mess. However, like you said ’cause and effect’. The reason those actions had to be taken was because Dean had the Mark of Cain. That’s not playing the blame game, that’s stating fact. If Dean had not taken on the MOC there would have been no reason to rid him of the MOC. If he hadn’t taken on a biblical mark that turned him more violent, more blood thirsty and more demonic, then there would have been no reason to look for the book of the damned, to involve Rowena, to involve anyone. In this situation, Dean was the cause, what Sam did was the effect. But there is no effect without cause.

            46. Marie yes Dean is at fault for everything and Sam wouldn’t have done anything if Dean hadn’t made him as Disgruntled and anonymous says it is all Dean’s fault – lets castrate the character!!

                Yes Dean took the mark, never said anything against that, everyone made choices yes and because of that then we have to look at each persons own culpability if we are going to be playing the blame game which is why I replied to Disgruntled’s post about Dean being the one most culpable. As I have also said Sam’s actions and desperation for me are part of him now over compensating to his previous response to Dean’s PTSD which the mark is part of. His desperation over it took a while after the mark was on Dean’s arm – his free will and part of a three year arc. Understand why it took so long to hit but still it is part of a three year arc.

                They are responsible for their own actions yes, Free will is important yes, but this always bringing it back to Dean did this and forced everyone else which it seems to always turn into here when it seems someone says Sam could be responsible for something they don’t like is a bit much especially when you try and call someone on it then you find yourself at the the bottom of a pile in.

         2. Cheryl reading your reply and thinking back over S10 – Sam seemed to be more evil than Dean particularly in your opening paragraph were you listed all the things Sam did to save Dean. Demon Dean was a pussy cat compared to Sam. Maybe this is what they wanted to portray ?? But I reckon they did a poor job of DD as you said just a edgier Dean

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            1. I suppose that could be true but there wasn’t enough motivation for Sam to be evil or the bigger monster. Dean wasn’t in that much trouble. At least from what I saw.

         3. Sam,s journey and I use that word loosely only existed because of Dean,s action of getting the MOC and the writers deciding that they can not challenge Dean as a character or the audiences perception of him.
            So we got a watered down version of the Mark and its effects which in turn had a bearing on Sam,story and why people did not see the urgency the writers were aiming for.

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            1. [b] Sam,s journey and I use that word loosely only existed because of Dean,s action of getting the MOC and the writers deciding that they can not challenge Dean as a character or the audiences perception of him.[/b]

               Thats really sad if you really think this is right – that means Jensen doesn’t get much of a chance to flex his muscles as a actor – do you really feel that we as his audience would be holding the writers back that much — that in fact were holding Jensen back. Oh my I hope not. He has so much talent as has Jared. I would really hate to think that we could do that to them

            2. To a certain extent yes Jensen is a very good actor but can you honestly say that the writers do not fear taking him truly dark in a way they have no fear with Sam . Jeremy,s ‘who is the bigger monster” quote before season 10 did not exactly convey here is Demon Dean fear him .

               But it is just my view and observation that is all.

            3. Sad, but true.

               JA, in my opinion, doesn’t get to flex his acting muscles as much as Jared. I don’t blame the audience for that though. I blame the writers. They are the ones who insist on keeping Dean “Dean” for the most part. DD was a joke in comparison to SS. They took no chances w/DD. Karoke? Shacking up w/one woman? Beating up bad guys? Killing demons? How is any of that different from normal Dean?!? I didn’t find DD frightening or particularly interesting. I think JA would have rocked if he had been allowed to depart from Dean, but he wasn’t.

               MOC!Dean was just as bad. As Cheryl pointed out, none of Dean’s actions this season warranted Sam’s extreme response after episodes of doing nothing. I guess we were really supposed to be shocked and appalled at Dean killing a bunch of human traffickers and child rapists. Guess what? I didn’t care at all; however, that one episode was supposed to show why MOC!Dean was so dangerous. It didn’t work for me. I mean that was the worst thing the writers could imagine? Sam drained an innocent woman of her blood. Castiel slaughtered hundreds of innocent angels. Dean just killed some dudes who would have likely killed him.

               I have not rewatched S10, and I have no desire to do so. I can only say the season didn’t work for me on any level.

         4. I absolutely agree with this, it WAS like Sam and Dean were in two different stories. Dean’s actions as a demon and as a man slowly succumbing to this ancient evil ‘mark’ and Sam’s desperate, world shattering response to what was happening to his brother just don’t mesh at all. Dean’s side of the equation did not support how far Sam was willing to go to save him at all, so we have this clunky imbalance in the story. This comes down to the writer’s unwillingness to do anything risky or even remotely controversial with Dean as a character. His actions were so watered down, his supposedly “bad” acts were so mitigated by additional circumstances that pretty much none of what Sam ended up doing seemed warranted or necessary. Too bad Sam is never given that same consideration; TPTB have zero problem making him do all manner of reprehensible things to further the story. Too bad TPTB also couldn’t see that the five episodes they devoted to Sam’s journey in the MoC arc were far more interesting for those risks that they are willing to take with him than anything they did with Dean in the past thirty-five episodes.

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            1. Quite agree with that. Dark Dean looked insipid with some rare exceptions. Demon Dean looked preposterous. They did great disservice to the character, making him look pathetic. Oh, and Crowely got afraid of Demon Dean because he shoved him? Really? Since when the King of Hell is afraid of bullies in dark alleys?

            2. As the result, Sam on the Dark side looks both fascinating and terrifying. Dean on the Dark side looks pathetic.

            3. Yes thank you. I guess I just wasn’t expressing it very well. I agree. And I agree Sam’s story once it got going was by far the most interesting part of the season. Not because I don’t love Dean but because the MOC had worn out it’s welcome and finally someone was doing something about it. Kudos to Sam.

4. Enjoyed your deeper look at Dean in Season 10, Alice. Just curious – has anyone considered doing a deeper look at Castiel or Crowley?

   Dean’s Season 10 journey was a mixed bag for me. I disagreed with the direction they took with Demon Dean, the hedonistic, let’s drink, sing bad karaoke and get laid Demon Dean we saw on screen. To me, that was out of character; I say this because of Dean’s prior experiences – his time in hell after Season 3 when he started torturing others and enjoyed it, and how much he enjoyed the “purity” of being in Purgatory. Given that, my expectations were for a darker, more sadistic and evil Demon Dean. We did get glimpses of that with his first confrontation with Cole and the game of cat and mouse he played with Sam in the bunker, but it wasn’t enough and, as far as the story arc went, it should have played out longer.

   I also never bought in to the possibility of MoC Dean killing Sam so the end of the season really didn’t work for me. For me, a more plausible scenario would have been Demon Dean killing Sam in the bunker during Soul Survivor, and then having Castiel subdue Demon Dean before resurrecting/healing Sam. That would have spiced things up in Season 10, with Dean fighting the effects of the Mark of Cain while also dealing with the guilt and aftermath of killing Sam. It would have also given Sam’s storyline of saving Dean at all costs more of a sense of urgency. I don’t know if this was a decision of the writers, the showrunner, or the actors, but ultimately they didn’t have the guts to go there with one of the lead characters.

   Dean’s MoC journey was uneven, jumbled, and went on far too long. I don’t think Dean going “off the rails” was well portrayed because, at times we had to be told by Sam that this is what was happening. They could have done a much better job of showing us this with MoC Dean.

   I do disagree with your comparison on Moc Dean and Soulless Sam; I did not see the similarities; Soulless Sam acted on base instinct and I didn’t see that with Moc Dean or Demon Dean; Demon Dean was portrayed as hedonistic while MoC Dean tried to satisfy/quell the violent tendencies brought out by the MoC by engaging in such fun activities as taking out a nest of vampires.

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5. [quote]Enjoyed your deeper look at Dean in Season 10, Alice. Just curious – has anyone considered doing a deeper look at Castiel or Crowley?[/quote]

   Thanks! I considered it. But since all Crowley did was mope for 22 episodes and Castiel was relegated to heavenly milk runs, I opted not. Better luck next year I always say!

   I completely agree with everything else you said, except I thought Dean in his “The Prisoner” tirade was acting on base instinct, like Soulless Sam. It wasn’t a full reverse the whole season, just when the MOC was under control.

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6. lala2 and cheryl42. As you both seem to think that nothing Dean did in season 10 warranted Sam’s actions, may I ask what would, for you, have been enough?

   For example, should Sam have waited until Dean killed another room full of humans, or another man tied to a chair or sitting in a car? Should he have waited until he killed another innocent child? Should he have waited until Dean was completely lost to the MOC so there was no getting him back or perhaps waited until Dean decided to go and take on twenty vampires on his own instead of just six? Should Sam have waited until Dean beat another friend almost to death or until Dean tried to kill him again or wished him dead again? Should he have waited until Dean got more threatening towards him, until he pulled up more things from the past to blame solely on Sam and use them as a justification for torturing him? As per your posts, all of the above are everyday, typical behaviours for Dean so they were nothing for Sam to have been worried about.

   lala2, I find it so strange that you consider Sam draining an ‘innocent woman of blood’ (a woman who was possessed by a demon who ate babies but perhaps that detail wasn’t worth mentioning?) is a sign of how far they will take Sam, but Dean killing a begging, terrified child is not.

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   1. Well Dean has killed scumbag humans in the past so killing a room full of rapists and murderers is nothing new for Dean. Killing a bunch of vampires didn’t seem all that evil. Dean has brought up Sammy’s greatest hits for 10 seasons now so that is nothing new. The brothers threatening to kill each other is nothing new either. They have both done that. Beating Dark Charlie was about the worse thing Dean did before Sam hatched his plan.

      By the time Dean killed the Styne kid Sam was already well on his way with his desperate plan. He had already used Bobby, Charlie, Cas and Rowena to get the Mark removed. My point was that up until he killed Rudy and the kid Dean hadn’t done anything that warranted going as far as Sam did and by then Sam had already gone too far.

      When Sam killed the nurse he had the power to pull the demon out of her and save her life. It was the culmination of Sam’s downward spiral that had been built on all season. It was as dark as the show has taken either brother. Sam at some level knew what he was doing was wrong. MOC possessed Dean was presumably not in control of his actions and he killed a Styne that he felt was responsible for Charlie’s death or at some point would become evil. The nurse could have been saved and Sam new it.

      With Dean he didn’t do anything (after the cure) that warranted Sam being as desperate as he was. If Dean had been an unstoppable force like Cain or Lucifer I could have understood the moves that Sam made. My only point is that Dean’s actions didn’t justify Sam’s reactions. The show has never taken the same risks with Dean as they have with Sam. It just would have worked better IMO if they had. Then Sam’s story would have made more sense to me.

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      1. [quote]With Dean he didn’t do anything (after the cure) that warranted Sam being as desperate as he was.[/quote]Dean would have killed sam there was no hesitation, that warrented why sam was desperate.Sam was going to drink the nurses blood so no saving her.whether the nurse would have survived ,left a drooling mess or died or killed would depend on the demon and the demon who possessed her was especially yucky ,icky and a claass above rest as its target was entirely innocents (babies).

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         1. You know, everybody remembered that nurse (I’m not saying that it was right, because it wasn’t), but nobody remembered that they were intended to kill a 10 year-old girl in season 3 finale, and killed three possessed people in 5 season finale. I often wonder what is the difference between these situations. Except that in the last two Dean took an active part, and the first one wasn’t sanctioned by Dean?

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         2. The implication in that scene was she could have been saved. Sam even said as much. We were supposed to be stunned at how far Sam had been corrupted. That is what I mean by the risks that the show has always taken with Sam’s character.
            I don’t think Sam was afraid for his own life. That would have never driven him to do the things he did. He was presumably afraid for Dean’s life and other innocent people. The problem for me was that no innocent people were killed (and Dean was pretty much holding it together) until after Sam started his deals and coerced others to join him.

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            1. [b]We were supposed to be stunned at how far Sam had been corrupted[/b].
               No, as the matter of fact, it wasn’t the intention of the authors. Their intention was to show Sam’s inner struggle. If their intention were to show how corrupted he was, we wouldn’t have been shown his hesitation and his reluctance to do it. Their intention was also to show what eventually pushed him to do it and it was the false message from Dean, which struck too close to home because of those things Dean had said to him. The main theme of the show, “we keep each other human”. Dean rejected his brother when he was really messed up, and it led to the releasing of Lucifer. By the way, did anybody notice that Carver constructed almost identical situation in episode 1? “It means you are a monster” – said Dean to Sam after he had tracked him down, thinking that Sam was turning into a demon. And later: “Sam’s gone. He’s gone. I’m not even sure if he’s still my brother anymore. If he ever was”. And Sam after tracking down Dean, knowing that he is a demon: “You are my brother and I’m here to take you home”.
               Why do you think he did so?

            2. But Sam did drink the blood of an innocent nurse while she watched. Apparently she needed to be alive? That is my point. Sam’s character was taken way further than they have ever taken Dean. What I am trying to say without dredging all the past episodes is that Sam made decisions that were outrageously extreme in S10 compared to the actions of Dean. I would have bought into Sam’s actions (and I think Singer/Carver made this choice for Dean) if they hadn’t backed off taking Dean down the same very dark road that Sam has gone down in the past. Then I personally would have bought into the desperate moves from Sam. It would have worked better [i]for me[/i] if they had made Dean more like Cain or Lucifer. Someone who needed to be stopped no matter the consequences. Because the consequences are huge right now.

            3. I see your point, but that crew of the writers were bolder and took greater risks, and we got a masterpiece as a result. Now we have a dragging out show, which has its hits no doubts, and sometimes even interesting, but will never level with not only with the first 5 seasons, it will never level even with Sera Gamble era.

            4. [quote]The implication in that scene was she could have been saved. Sam even said as much.[/quote]Sam was no demon possessed people expert .But she would be alive if the demon wanted her to be or the trauma might have been too much.[quote]The problem for me was that no innocent people were killed (and Dean was pretty much holding it together) until after Sam started his deals and coerced others to join him.[/quote]sam would have been.not wanting his brother to go to that extent was his aim and Dean killing the frankenboy was deplorable horrible and personally for me it was a no return point as far as Dean goes.

            5. Yes it was deplorable. But Sam had already done all the things I have listed before Dean killed the Styne kid. There didn’t seem to me to be the urgency at the time that Sam was making deals with Rowena, enlisting Bobby’s aid, coercing Charlie, Cas . That all happened before Dean went off the rails.

            6. I do not see sam coercing Charlie or Cas they were fully aware of what they were getting into.
               Sam had other reasons which I have already stated and they were enough for me.Ths styne kid was for me when Dean went off the rail the second time and when Dean ceased being a hero for me.

      2. Killing an entire roomful of people including a man who is tied to chair is new to Dean. At this stage, Dean didn’t know anything about the people he killed. He certainly didn’t know they were ‘murderers and rapists’. There’s also no evidence they were all murderers, and at the time they were killed there was no evidence they were rapists. Killing a bunch of vampires isn’t evil (unless the vampire is Dean’s best brother) but having the strength, brutality and recklessness to kill six at once, by yourself, is. If you look at the dreams then Dean did more than kill them (monsters, humans, we don’t know what he was after killing that time), he decimated them. He was an unstoppable force, just like you described Cain and Lucifer to be. Dean hasn’t wished Sam dead on a pyre or blamed his mothers death solely on him before. Threatening to kill Sam isn’t new for Dean but taking steps to kill him is.

         Plus, if a ‘MOC possessed Dean was presumably not in control of his actions’ then surely he needs to be stopped. When Dean isn’t in control of his actions he engages in mass slaughter. He is an unstoppable force, like Cain or Lucifer so Sam’s actions seem to be entirely justified. Cain, just like Dean, engaged in the murder of people he believed deserved it, and Dean did this at the start of the season.

         When Sam killed the demon possessed, baby eating, nurse, he did it to try and stop Lucifer from rising. Sam and Dean have killed dozens upon dozens of demons, and they can all be saved, not just the demon Sam killed. Many times they killed them for information to try and help others so Sam killing a demon to help save the lives of others is nothing new for him.

         I’m unsure as to what is desperate about Sam’s plan. He did research over a long period of time, he didn’t go into what he did lightly. He knew there would be consequences but he also knew there would be consequences if he did nothing. He weighted up the pros and cons and then gave people a choice. He didn’t force or trick them into it. They could have chosen to say no, they didn’t because they too saw and/or experienced that Dean was getting worse, and they did it for him.

         In relation to the show not taking the same risks with Dean as they do with Sam, the show does take risks with Dean. What they fail to do is give anyone else a point of view bar Dean. So as long as Dean says he is okay then many people believe him to be okay. Back in season 4, Dean constantly said that Sam was getting worse and becoming more evil yet when you look at what Sam actually did, he wasn’t. He was saving lives and killing demons. What condemned Sam in season 4 (and many other times after that) were Dean’s words and not just Sam’s actions. Unfortunately, there is no-one on the show who will criticize Dean for his actions so, for the audience, everything is ‘okay’.

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         1. Marie, I think it’s not the question of what Dean did, as the matter of fact, he did more deplorable things, that Sam in season 4. It is more of the question of not so good writing. They just were unable to drive their idea home. There is some discrepancy between the rational understanding of what we are shown and emotional impact of the shown material. You know like one of the founders of method acting used to say: “You frighten me, but I’m not afraid”. He said it about bad acting, but it may as well be applied to bad writing. And it certainly can be applied to the whole Dean arc. They frightened us, but as for me mostly I wasn’t frightened, I was bored.
            And yes, a lot of people take Dean’s opinion as the authors’ point of view, even Sam’s girls. I don’t know why. Sometimes we are given the authors’ point of view, but once it was through Chuck, and now they use Metatron, but mostly in a taunting manner. This season they gave their point of view through the teenage author in episode 5.

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         2. [quote]Killing an entire roomful of people including a man who is tied to chair is new to Dean. At this stage, Dean didn’t know anything about the people he killed. He certainly didn’t know they were ‘murderers and rapists’. There’s also no evidence they were all murderers, and at the time they were killed there was no evidence they were rapists. Killing a bunch of vampires isn’t evil (unless the vampire is Dean’s best brother) but having the strength, brutality and recklessness to kill six at once, by yourself, is. If you look at the dreams then Dean did more than kill them (monsters, humans, we don’t know what he was after killing that time), he decimated them. He was an unstoppable force, just like you described Cain and Lucifer to be. Dean hasn’t wished Sam dead on a pyre or blamed his mothers death solely on him before. Threatening to kill Sam isn’t new for Dean but taking steps to kill him is.

            Plus, if a ‘MOC possessed Dean was presumably not in control of his actions’ then surely he needs to be stopped. When Dean isn’t in control of his actions he engages in mass slaughter. He is an unstoppable force, like Cain or Lucifer so Sam’s actions seem to be entirely justified. Cain, just like Dean, engaged in the murder of people he believed deserved it, and Dean did this at the start of the season.

            When Sam killed the demon possessed, baby eating, nurse, he did it to try and stop Lucifer from rising. Sam and Dean have killed dozens upon dozens of demons, and they can all be saved, not just the demon Sam killed. Many times they killed them for information to try and help others so Sam killing a demon to help save the lives of others is nothing new for him.

            I’m unsure as to what is desperate about Sam’s plan. He did research over a long period of time, he didn’t go into what he did lightly. He knew there would be consequences but he also knew there would be consequences if he did nothing. He weighted up the pros and cons and then gave people a choice. He didn’t force or trick them into it. They could have chosen to say no, they didn’t because they too saw and/or experienced that Dean was getting worse, and they did it for him.

            In relation to the show not taking the same risks with Dean as they do with Sam, the show does take risks with Dean. What they fail to do is give anyone else a point of view bar Dean. So as long as Dean says he is okay then many people believe him to be okay. Back in season 4, Dean constantly said that Sam was getting worse and becoming more evil yet when you look at what Sam actually did, he wasn’t. He was saving lives and killing demons. What condemned Sam in season 4 (and many other times after that) were Dean’s words and not just Sam’s actions. Unfortunately, there is no-one on the show who will criticize Dean for his actions so, for the audience, everything is ‘okay’.[/quote]perfect comment

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         3. [quote]Unfortunately, there is no-one on the show who will criticize Dean for his actions so, for the audience, everything is ‘okay'[/quote]

            Yes this is my point exactly. There is no boundary that Dean can cross that the fans won’t forgive him for. So why not go really Dark like Angelus dark. Make Dean an embodiment of the Darkness in human form. Make him so formidable that it takes everyone to stop him. It takes gut wrenching sacrifices. The things that Sam did would be more justified then. At least to me.

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            1. You need Kripke to do that. And that would be another masterpiece. 🙂 Not going to happen, though 🙁

            2. I don’t know about masterpiece. Did you see Revolution? Shudders…..

            3. No, I’m not interested. I was appealed to SPN because it’s a postmodernistic playing and a deconstruction of biblical stories both canonical and non-canonical ones, raising very serious ethical issues, which often don’t have unambiguous solutions. I’m not interested in action per se, i like when they give us some food for thought. And that’s why I think very highly about the first five seasons. 6 and 7 seasons were not so rich of such topics as the first five seasons, but there were some. I didn’t see anything like that in season 8, and season 9 and 10 had some, but I think they paled in comparison even to seasons 6 and 7. Though season 10 put some serious questions to think about, I think it still a far cry from Kripke’s era. 🙂

            4. I was a bit unjust about season 8, when I was saying it had no ideas. It had an idea, which was clearly expressed in Remember the Titans (the best episode of the season in my opinion), that is “What the point of saving the world, if you can’t save people you love”, but it was overshadowed by the contrived conflict between the brothers, and can be easily overlooked because of it.

            5. If there is no boundary that Dean can cross that fans won’t forgive him for then it doesn’t make a difference what they show him doing, fans won’t buy into it anyway. However, that shouldn’t take away from what they did show him doing and they showed him doing the same as Cain i.e. escalation of violence. And Sam has always been about saving before killing. Perhaps he wanted to save Dean before he killed hundreds of people and unleashed more monsters on the earth.

               The things that Sam did that you feel were unjustified were:
               (a) Dealt with a witch – Something Sam and Dean have done before
               (b) Ask Bobby for help – They’ve been doing that since season one
               (c) Ask Castiel – They’ve been doing that since season four
               (d) Ask Charlie for help – They’ve been doing that since season seven

            6. I understand what you are saying. My point however is that since fans love Dean (and will forgive him for anything he does) the show should have taken the character to a darker place than they did. I would have liked to see a Dean that really was an unstoppable force. Demon army raising, amoral and a global threat (kind of like the Darkness). Then the urgent desperation that was shown from Sam would have made more sense to me. But I do understand that the story went in a different direction. They wanted to show a Sam that wanted to save Dean before he turned back into “that thing” again. I would have preferred showing Dean from the beginning as something that needed to be stopped no matter the cost.

               And really it was Sam’s actions that inadvertently pushed Dean over the edge.

               a) Dealt with a witch- well this witch had killed an innocent girl right in front of Sam and tried to kill Dean. And Sam handed over a very powerful book of unspeakable evil. They’ve never done that before.

               b)Ask Bobby for help- Yes they have asked Bobby for help but Bobby was resting peacefully in heaven. Sam knew that Bobby would be punished for what he had done.

               c)Ask Castiel- yes they have and I think Cas has a lot to answer for too. After all he just stood there while Rowena killed an innocent man.

               d) Ask Charlie for help- Yes they have but Sam knew what he was asking was far more dangerous than anything he had asked before. Of course he didn’t mean to get Charlie killed and she was largely responsible for her own decisions but Sam involved her in a very dangerous plot and he knew he was risking her life. But like he told himself in the Werther Project “you’ll do anything to save that doomed brother of yours”.

            7. a) They haven’t handed over books but they have made deals with demons, angels, Death, witches etc, all of which have considerable power and are capable of unspeakable evil. And all these demons, angels etc have killed an innocent someone, not just Rowena. It still doesn’t stop them from working with them.

               b) Bobby is a hunter. He needs to help people. He choose to do what he did because he wanted to help Sam and Dean and also to save lives. In his letter to Sam he said that while he might have been ‘content’ in heaven, getting the call from him was the ‘happiest he’s been in forever’. And there is no evidence that Bobby was punished, merely assumption.

               c) Point being that asking Castiel for help is nothing new so it was not unjustified. Castiel had killed innocent people before that but Sam and Dean had no hesitation in working with him.

               d) There’s no evidence it was more dangerous than walking into a building full of Leviathans, who at the time were the most dangerous creatures in the world, and stealing their files when they were right there, especially when she was merely a civilian. However, her skills were needed so they asked her. Her skills were needed for the codex so Sam asked her. And working with the ‘most dangerous witch in the world’ wasn’t what got her killed. (Add to that at this point, Rowena was nothing more than a two-bit witch who happened to be the mummy of the king of hell. Nothing we saw on the show indicated she was the most dangerous witch in the world.) And don’t forget, in that scene both Castiel and Charlie said they were doing it ‘For Dean’. They weren’t doing it for Sam.

               In order to be pushed over the edge then you need to be on the edge, and per your previous comments Dean wasn’t anywhere near the edge, he was perfectly fine so I’m not sure exactly how you’re holding Sam responsible. Sam’s actions didn’t drive Dean over anything. At the time Rowena got involved Dean had already massacred people, he was already more violent and bloodthirsty. He was already more out of control. Sam didn’t drive him to kill the Stynes or to get Rudy killed. He did that all on his own. Dean knew it too, that’s why he went to Death. If Sam was responsible for Dean’s actions then Dean would have went to Sam to stop him.

         4. double post

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         5. Marie, I agree with you on this point. I do agree with Cheryl and many others who feel that the writers gave us a toned down (and quite boring for the most part) version of MOC Dean; he would do something especially violent and in the next ep seem almost like his old self. It was one step forward (towards demonic Dean) and then two steps back. Very frustrating, and presumably it was done because they had decide to drag the MOC story line out for such a long time that it had to be a slow burn. However, I think you’re right that the Dean they did portray was a far cry from normal Dean. While Dean has killed the odd human, he has never, and would never, “massacre” (to use his own word) a roomful of them, one of whom was tied to a chair. He and we were never shown that they were more than garden variety thugs, except for the leader who apparently was about to rape Claire. And a Dean who was so amped up that he could single-handedly wipe out 5 or 6 men, surely could have just pounded them into unconsciousness then gone on his merry way. THAT is what normal Dean would have done. MOC Dean, however, thrived on violence and killing. So much that he would unload a full clip into Collette even after she was dead, and would continue pummeling Dark Charlie even though he knew it was hurting Good Charlie. Of course the writers could have shown Dean brutalizing “good” people; it would have been a greater indication of his losing struggle to contain the MOC’s influence. I agree with those who think this is largely due to a reluctance by TPTB to overly tarnish the character of the one they view as the hero of the show. But Dean was still acting very uncharacteristically IMO. The tipping point for Sam came in ES, when Dean killed Cain. The brothers had learned of Cain’s grand plan to kill tens of millions of his descendants. But now Dean has killed the only other bearer of the MOC, a veritable killing machine. And who is his heir apparent? Dean! Sam certainly did not overstate it when he told Cas that Dean was in trouble. Sam learned from his experience in S 9 that he can’t wait until Dean’s situation is completely out of hand. He’s a very smart guy (though the writers often seem to forget it), and he realizes that he simply CANNOT wait until Dean has gone completely off the rails- by then it might be too late. He has seen, as you so nicely point out Marie, that a Dean in the full throes of the MOC is a force of nature, able to kill packs of humans or vampires alike. So it makes perfect sense to take action before Dean gets to the point of no return, especially since nobody can predict when that point will be reached! In fact, it would be downright crazy to wait and hope for the best. What if Dean, in one of his MOC-fueled killing sprees, is killed? Then he is back to being a demon. And even if he’s not “killed,” well, Sam still has no way of knowing what course of events might cause Dean to become the next Cain. IMO, Sam was smart to take whatever steps he could to prevent Dean from completely succumbing to the MOC. And up until the very last scene, where Death briefly informs him of the ramifications of removing the MOC, Sam rightfully believed that the speculative risks by using the BOTD are greatly outweighed by the KNOWN consequences of losing Dean to the MOC. What Sam did was the smarter, better choice if he truly wanted to save Dean.

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7. I think Demon Dean was terrifying. Dean is a man whose essential character trait is caring very deeply for people, silently cherishing his family (blood and otherwise) and valuing the lives of strangers more than his own. He’s always pulled “Dean Winchesters.” Dean has never been indifferent to people. Demon Dean is indifferent about everyone and everything. Of course the change bothered Sam. Dean had lost his humanity.

   MOC Dean is not similar to Souless Sam, who was merely cold and calculating, not uncaring. SS cared about getting a job done. He cared about himself. He still saved people; he just calculated the most efficient way to do it, factoring in and accepting collateral damage. There really is something terrifying about the “you can’t make an omlette without breaking a few eggs” attitude that SS had. He was clinical, while DD is uncaring. SS is like a doctor who has no bedside manor, while DD is like the janitor who unconcernedly mops the floor around a patient who’s screaming in pain.

   Regular Dean may well be suffering from PTSD, but Sam had to be traumatized as well when Dean and Cas vanished at the end of Season 7. Running away like he did seemed natural to me. It’s the kind of thing one does here in the States-jump in your car and drive until something makes you stop.

   I want to see Sam and Dean helping us regular people again. My very favorite episode is “Dead in the Water” and I’d like to see more stories like that. When was the last time we saw Dean talk to a little kid?

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