Promotional photos for Supernatural 10.15
Here are the promotional pictures for the next episode of Supernatural.
{AG}SeasonTen/15-ThingsThatTheyCarried{/AG}
The photos make it look like Sam and Dean will be apart for much of this episode. Dean will be with Cole. Sam will be with a woman I don’t recognize. We know that we are getting a return of the Khan Worm, and IIR, an electric shock drove the worm out of a person’s body, so I’m guessing that Dean is going to try and drive the Worm out of Cole.
What do you think? Do these pictures give you an idea of what will be happening in this episode? Please give us your thoughts.
Not a clue. Just in case I’m leading the prayer circle for Cole though…. 🙁 Deans doing the “hands cradling face of life” move – along with the required “Hey man! You still with me?!?” pep talk…I think he’ll be okay…. But to be safe… “We are gathered here in honor of…” 😉
And please no Sam is A) Tied to chair. B) Unconcious or C) Unconcious and tied to chair….
Nah I think Cole lives and Sam is either A or B.
Or maybe they will go for the really unexpected dramatic twist and have Sam and Cole tied to the SAME CHAIR!!!! Unconcious or otherwise, rope or cuffs… writer’s discretion… Ooooh the Scole ship has just begun her maiden journey… Or is it Colm? Or better yet Samole! Ha!!!
Possible *SPOILER* Travis tweeted a message that sounded kind of ominous….now I have worries for Cole.
Say it ain’t so!!!!! *wibble*
Yeah, after that tweet I have a bad feeling about Cole.
Him surviving is now like 10 % or something. I hope I am wrong.
– Lilah
Ahhhh!!!! I read it! Maybe he’s just teasing? I’d be surprised if Show was cool with him dropping that spoiler?!? Really though on second thought, it would pretty much be staus quo for this show… kill off all the great characters, leave us with the lame ones. Who the HELL is steering this ship?!? Someone else needs to wrest control from them! *Cough* Carver/Singer *cough* Please not Cole! First character in awhile that has shown decent possibilities and made sense organically that he would be a good fit in the world of the Winchesters. Then again, these are the same people that thought “Bloodlines” was going to be “Must see TV” and cut DemonDean short for the 200th ep so what more should we expect. I’m going to go cry now…
I think you are both wrong. I think Sam and Dean split up. Shockingly Dean saves Cole and Sam saves the damsel in distress instead of being one.
“Shockingly” 😀
I’m confused by the pics. The man attacking the DID – no, not Sam!!! Kidding! – his face looks all messed up. Is he a victim of the Khan Worm or something completely different? Maybe the Khan Worm is a whole other thing Dean and Cole are addressing? If this is correct (which I seriously doubt) then maybe Sam left Dean to go chase a MOC lead and came across the DID scenario? I just made my head hurt. This is why I don’t write fan fic! I am suprised the Khan Worm is being all chill about being zapped by that battery! Remember when it was in Bobby and he kept trying to move away/postpone his turn with the stripped live wire? In the promo you see Cole actually handling the battery! What!!!???!!!
I’m thinking ( Head Hurts ) To me it looks like to seperate jobs – which the boys have done before – no probs there. But Dean & Cole look very buddy buddy is Dean looking for another ally – someone aprat from Sam ????????????
Also I’m away for 2 wks – should be very excited about this off to Bali. Have to wait till I get home to catch up Feeling a bit blahhhhhh about this. Just saying
Have we ever seen Coles wife? Could that woman Sam is with be her?
We saw her in the first episode Cole was in. I thought she was blonde? Can’t remember really.
Unless they’ve recast her, that isn’t Cole’s wife. I am guessing she’s the wife of the guy with the messed up face? So, it appears that the boys will be separated again and Dean and Cole can bond and discuss Dean while Sam will be with victim of the week and she will talk about herself.
I thought the official CW preview for this episode said both brothers team up with Cole, so maybe they split up during the course of the case. And I’m shocked, but it appears that the writers are trusting Sam to have an actual conversation with a guest star, although I wish it was with Cole and not some random woman whom we’ll never see again. But I guess I’ll settle for any interaction between Sam and someone besides Dean and Cas. I hope he can handle it- his people skills must be kind of rusty from lack of use. Although I thought the same thing in Halt & Catch Fire and his whole “conversation” with the wife amounted to her telling him her life’s story while Sam looked appropriately somber. PLEASE let this be a meaty conversation involving Sam. And let him be smart and tough. I don’t think I’m asking for too much. ( I guess I’m actually making the same point as E-sorry if I’m being repetitive!)
Can anyone tell me, when was the last time Sam had a personal conversation with a guest star; personal, meaning it’s about Sam in some way? And not like the conversation that Sam had with Charlie. Charlie saying “So, the mark of Cain? It’s always something with you boys.” Sam’s portion of that convo was off screen and we have no idea what he said other than to inform Charlie of the facts or like the convo with Maeve in Fan Fiction because all she did was mock him and make him look stupid. . So, in other words, the last time Sam had a conversation like the one that Dean had with Delilah in Halt and Catch Fire where he talks about regrets and making things right or with Cole in Girls, Girls, Girls, where he talks about the tole of hunting and how he’s doomed, or Tina in About a Boy where they bond over their crappy childhoods. Can anyone tell me the last time that was? It seems to me that it was maybe First Born? God that was 9×11; was it really THAT long ago?
There should be a Sam Winchester Bechdel Test! 😉 To pass, Sam has a conversation, with someone who isn’t Dean, about SAM as a person, where that person doesn’t turn around 5 minutes later and try to strangle him/throw him into a wall/tie him to an increasingly more unlikely object using an increasingly more unlikely type of tie.
“Sam are you tied to a stuffed llama by magically reinforced spaghetti strands?”
“No, shut up, untie me”
I would say that the last time Sam had a personal conversation with someone who was actually listening to him was with Death at the beginning of season 9. I suppose that one line at the end of the most recent episode ‘Cas, Dean’s in trouble’ could be counted as us getting a glimpse at what he is thinking? Doesn’t really pass the Samdel test though :p
Hey eiif… I don’t consider Sam’s “Dean’s in trouble” a personal conversation because it wasn’t about Sam, it was about Dean. Sam didn’t say one word about himself there (he actually only said three words total… so you know) and we can ‘infer’ how he feels from those three words, but it’s still not personal in any way really. Also three words isn’t really a conversation and Cas made no reply. So, for me, the most recent one I can think of is the “help me do one right thing” comment in 9×11 when Cas was extracting the grace from Sam. It’s pretty telling that that one small conversation, which seemed so heart wrenching to me lead to absolutely nothing at all. Did Cas help Sam “do one right thing?” No…. the angel grace thing went no where; chalk up another useless moment for Sam. Before that convo there were the scenes in Sacrifice with Sam and Dean (although that doesn’t count because Dean ins’t a guest star) and Crowley. Although if you look more closely at those conversations they weren’t really that much about Sam; we could SEE the toll that the cure was taking ON Sam, but he didn’t’ say much that was personal. Basically we got to see and hear how it affected Crowley.
I notice that no one seems too keen to answer this question. I am not surprised. I could go through the past two seasons and name all the times that Dean got to say something personal, delve into his inner issues and emote his main pain all over the place with a guest star… but does Sam get the same? Nope. Not on your nelly. If people actually sympathized with Sam or understood him better through conversations with other characters then they might take HIS side when he and Dean argue, and we can’t have that now can we.
Yes you are right. That episode was actually Sam talking about his situation, and how he felt, to Cas. Which is the premise of your question 🙂 Whether sharing your feelings with Cas is a waste of time (it pretty much is, since he doesn’t have any grasp of the intricacies of people) is not really relevant.
And no, I wasn’t all that serious about the ‘Dean’s in trouble’ line, but that episode is the nearest we have come to remembering Sam in many episodes. 😉
You know what else appears to be a waste of time? Any plot point involving Sam as a person. This episode is a prime example: the whole “residual grace” thing was pretty interesting IMO and Sam’s “help me do one right thing” sounded pretty desperate and heart wrenching. I for one would have like to find that Sam carrying angel grace around in him meant SOMETHING. But did TPTB show any interest in pursuing that intriguing plot thread? Nope. Once Cas’s spell failed they dropped the entire idea like the proverbial hot potato. So how did Sam feel about having left over angel grace in him? Does he wonder if he’s carrying Lucifer’s grace around? How does he feel about NOT being able to “do one right thing?” I guess we’ll never know because no one cared to follow up on any of it. And what did they replace that plot line with? Nothing; I mean its not like they let that whole thing go because there was something else equally riveting going on with Sam. Basically they just dropped it so that they could focus on Dean.
Sam did have short conversations with Ed and Harry in Thinman that showed a teeny, tiny indirect glimpse of Sam’s feelings, but that’s all I can recall. He did have a nice interaction with the ex-nun in Mother’s Little Helper, but the conversation was about her, not Sam. Sam has almost become a cypher- it’s as if his thoughts revolve entirely around Dean, and his thoughts and feelings about anything other than Dean either don’t exist or are of no importance to him. When Dean was so worried about Sam during the trials, he still had the opportunity and inclination to have personal conversations with others, including Benny, Charlie (in two episodes), etc. I read an interview with Robbie T before There’s No Place Like Home in which he indicated that he’s been asked why Charlie doesn’t have a closer relationship with Sam, and I thought he said that they would have a more personal interaction in that episode, but I guess it got cut to make room for the scene where Dean is sitting in the waiting room before talking to Charlie’s next target. I assume Dean sitting and looking at a magazine is more interesting than anything Sam could say to Charlie.
Do you mean the “trust me, secrets ruin relationships” comment that Sam made to Ed? I suppose that we could infer that Sam was talking about more than Harry and Ed at that moment and that it was a shred of insight into what he was feeling about the recent possession, but Ed didn’t respond (Dean was right there and gave Sam a look) and Sam said no more or indicated in any way to Ed that he wasn’t just focused on Ed in that moment. I’d consider that a comment but not a conversation… at least not like the conversations Dean gets to have in nearly every single episode. So, I guess we are back to 9×11 as the last time which was 27 or 28 episodes ago or for over an entire season now. You are so right about Sam being a cypher, he’s certainly not a character in his own right any more.
Eilf, one reason that I absolutely loved the scene between Sam and Death is that, not only did we get some great insight into Sam’s feelings and thoughts, but it reflected so well on him- he would rather die than have anyone else be hurt because of him. And Death’s attitude towards Sam made me so happy. He said that he had to come reap Sam himself because, “well-played”, and he seemed to actually have warm feelings towards Sam! That is the only time in years that ANY character on the show besides Dean has said such positive things about Sam and acknowledged how great he was. I have to admit, I watched that scene literally dozens of times after the episode aired because there had been such a drought of anyone giving Sam credit for anything. I still can’t believe that it made it onto the screen.
It is one of my favorite things Sam-related in the show 🙂
Honestly the last conversation i can remember off the top of my head is the one between Sam and Chuck when Sam asks if he knows about the demon blood. “Do you ever see me away from Dean?”
It is funny you should mention that specific conversation Amyh, I was watching that episode the other day – I just came across it at random, and I looked at that scene and thought exactly that – hey look here is Sam, being a real person, in a conversation with someone else! And it didn’t seem strange that another character should be talking to Sam instead of to Dean. How things have changed.
Of course Dean bonds with Cole. Dean bonds with everyone who murders, tortures or shoots Sam. I think its a prerequisite to becoming Deans buddy.
:D:D I think there’s a running contest at Biggersons… Free slice of pie for anyone that tries to kill, strangle, tie up, knock unconscious, or otherwise injure Sam.
I can see that….
You know I watched Mystery Spot the other day and Trickster/Gabriel told Sam “Dean will be the death of you.” Holy crap now I wonder if Gabriel knew the MOC was going to be in play. Or maybe the Lucifer/Micheal battle was actually a red herring and Lucifer claiming Sam as his vessel was simply setting Dean up to take on the MOC. Lucifer never seemed interested in the showdown with Micheal….only getting rid of humanity.
I have to admit I am a touch puzzled by these pictures. If this were an Adam Glass episode* that would be the entire story up there in pictures (several people have already detailed the way that plot would go so I won’t repeat it again) and you wouldn’t need to watch the episode. Now I know they do occasionally lose the run of themselves and give away all the surprises in the promo and pictures but this seems really bad.
I am sort of assuming that possibly Cole hasn’t got a Kahn worm in him but he thinks he does? Or better still it is a Kahn worm that has worked out how to resist electricity and wants to see if it can fool Dean …. that would be stupid even for a worm (unless it wants to know if it can fool a hunter and Dean happens to be closest?), but maybe?
I don’t imagine Sam’s storyline has much to do with anything. *shrug*.
*in fairness several of the writers have taken to writing stories with the same formulaic formula as, for example, Freaks and Geeks, not just AG.
Looks like Sam and Dean split up; have no idea who the guy with the complexion issue is, though he’ll probably end up trying to strangle Sam, because it is Wednesday after all. Cole looks kind of evil in the picture of him sitting by the fire; is that before or after Dean tried to jump start him with a car battery? When’s the last time Sam killed someone? Maybe he should have sex with that woman in the first picture – that would guarantee she’ll be dead by the end of the episode 🙂
I kind of vaguely hope that Sam’s “born again virgin” status sticks around and maybe eventually has a purpose. At least it would give that episode some weight in the mytharc.
Percy, i dont understand what you mean re: your born again virgin comment. Wasn’t that just the guys signing the contract to get on the inside to investigate? Jared never made an indication is was anything but a ruse in the way he played it.
Except, I don’t think Sam has slept with anyone since that pledge. I could be forgetting, but I think, whether it’s because he hasn’t had the opportunity, or he has chosen to stay celibate, Sam hasn’t violated his pledge. I really don’t think it means anything other than the writers can’t be arsed to write someone for Sam to interact with, but since they had him take the pledge and since he is still operating under it, I would kind of like to see it addressed as being important in some way. Sadly, I think it’s really just the writers doing another “who the heck would want to spend time with Sam or sleep with him?” move.
Frankly AFAIR, Sam has only slept with Amelia since he got his soul back. Dean has been more reticent about sex as well, but he broke his pledge in the same episode that he took it and during that episode Sam suggested he could be used as a virgin in a ceremony and Jody said she thought they needed someone who really was a virgin. I just didn’t like the episode much, because of the consent issues with Suzie, and would like SOMETHING Sam did on screen mean something to the story.
Speaking of consent issues, (and I am one of those who had huge problems with the Suzy episode) I suppose Sam’s ‘virginity’ depends (to paraphrase Bill Ciinton) on what the meaning of ‘virgin’ is. Since at the point of that episode Sam had another sentient being inside him (without his knowledge or permission), who left behind residue leading to a Teen Mom ‘joke’ in a later episode, isn’t it possible that Sam wasn’t eligible to take that pledge?
It actually would have made more sense for the goddess to have rejected him on that premise instead of because he was so damaged inside – I wonder was there ever a version of the script that pointed that out? It would explain where the original idea for the episode came from since the version we got was insulting (if you found it insulting), really didn’t hold together all that well logically, and was a repeat of the dog episode (2 episodes previously). I can’t help feeling that there were at least a few of the writers who were aware of the comparison that they were making, and that at some point (too late) they chickened out, leaving all the plot threads dangling.
As I understood it Amy the guys did become virgins again because it was a pledge to a goddess – it is a type of spell really. So whether they meant it or not, the agreement held. When Dean and Suzy had sex the wouldn’t have been breaking the vow if they never made it in the first place and they clearly DID because the goddess was able to take them both at that stage.
Jody (and Sam) didn’t really believe that Sam was a virgin, but apart from the whole Gadreel / Zeke business (see above (or possibly below) post 🙂 ) he probably WOULD have been for the purposes of whatever his and Jody’s plan was. I can’t remember right now why the goddess was able to try to kill him before she changed her mind (or kill Jody either, come to think of it – Jody didn’t sign a pledge did she?).
It is possible that my logic, or the episode’s logic, doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny.
I have to admit I haven’t seen the episode in a while.
wasn’t she going to feast on their livers because that’s the only part of them still working to purify their bodies?
Heh, I don’t remember 🙂 But I thought that she could only do that to them when they were her acolytes and ‘belonged’ to her (and had broken their vow). But that doesn’t explain her trying to take out Jody, so maybe I am wrong.
The “Pledge” was a part of the job. Neither Sam nor Dean actually took it personally as fact. It was no more real to them than their FBI/Homeland Security badges are. I believe Sam meant he was a virgin in context (symbolically) to the MOW thinking he would be good enough for her to come after because of him taking said pledge. Sam and Dean can no more become actual virgins at this point anymore than Dean could be rehymenated whether or not ‘this dude will not abide’. Symbolically sure, physically – no. I don’t see Sam staying celibate because of a pledge, he just hasn’t come across any one lately who has flipped that switch. He’s not a Monk, hes…choosey and I like him like that. As opposed to our red blooded American made horndog Dean and I like him like that. And I would like to be added to the list of people wanting to see Sam and Dean getting a lot more action!!! C’mon! A girl has needs!!!!!! And if there is no list may I suggest we start one, or a petition or a twitterfest…or a march on Washin – uh, the set in Vancouver…
But with the supernatural it is the deal that is important. All deals with supernatural creatures are basically spells and they are binding – all deals are contracts (see Crowley’s epics). Nobody who sells their soul to a demon actually does it because they WANT their soul to belong in hell, they just haven’t thought through to the consequences. Like Dean going to hell in Season 3, he wanted Sam back, he got Sam back, but the deal was unbreakable.
In this case most people signed a born-again virgin contract because they wanted to be that, Sam and Dean did it because it was expedient.
[quote]BONNIE [Looking shocked] It’s not a button. And…this isn’t just a piece of paper. I mean, this is your clean slate, your chance to be a virgin until marriage.
DEAN Well, you had me at “clean slate”” Let’s do this.
[DEAN and then SAM both[b] sign their real names[/b] to the bottom of their purity pledges. They then hand them back to BONNIE.]
BONNIE Congratulations, Sam and Dean Winchester. You are both virgins. [/quote]But since the person they signed it with WAS both a goddess and therefore a supernatural creature the deal is a deal. Technically the guys were virgins until they weren’t – Dean within the same day:
[quote]SAM This thing is taking people that break their vows, right?
JODY Yeah.
SAM Dean and Suzy — been over an hour. [/quote]and Sam … well we don’t know.
This is how it should work to be consistent to the show’s lore. It doesn’t really matter WHY the person makes the agreement. Just that they do.
In this case it is possible that the goddess is not making deals but instead is playing some sort of serial killer ritual game. But supernatural creatures are supposed to have rules and it is humans who don’t: [quote]DEAN: Well, that’s the point. You know, with our usual playmates, there’s rules, there’s patterns. But with people, they’re just crazy.
Dean: Yikes. I’ll say it again—demons I get. People are crazy. [/quote] She does say to Jody that born-again virgins are not the same as ‘real’ ones and she is only using their livers so it is possible she is just spying on people and waiting until they break their pledges. The pledge has nothing to do with what she is really after, but logically (for the story) that is pretty weak. The funny thing is if she is after ‘good’ livers and Sam’s won’t do because it is too badly damaged, it was a missed opportunity in the story for her not to get a peek at Dean’s alcohol infused one. Either way just because S&D considered it part of the job doesn’t make the making of a deal with a supernatural creature any less of a deal, the STRENGTH of the deal becomes variable depending on the creature.
I don’t think anyone is saying that Sam is remaining celibate because he signed a pledge (if anything he is probably taking the dick of death style jokes, that Dean (and Charlie) keep making, to heart. It is no wonder he is isolated to just communicating with Dean) but since it appears from this episode that he might be a virgin it might have had some story effect later on if the writers had decided to do so.
Interesting observations. I still take it as she said that they aren’t true virgins which to me says the Pledge was just a means to an end for her because she couldn’t reinstate their physical virginity. I didn’t, don’t see it as a deal or contract because the intent nor the sincerity was there from Sam and Dean and when you are talking about a pledge I believe there has to be something to back that up – otherwise it is just a bunch of meaningless words, whether they signed with their true names or not. If she hadn’t said that to Jody then I would probably concede to your point. She may also be in a weaker state of strength or power because the worshipers just ain’t what they used to be, so she had to resort to this faux virginity and accept her limitations.
The problem isn’t so much how they feel about it though. It’s like saying ‘I didn’t mean to eat that cake therefore those calories won’t register when I stand on a scale’.* For both angels (Gadreel) and demons (Lilith for example) they are willing to take the letter of an agreement as agreement (often twisting around what the person agreed to do to suit themselves) All other creatures follow rules once we know what they are – people get tangled in the supernatural often because they are in a ‘contract’ of some sort with a supernatural creature, sometimes they don’t even know it.
It was very stupid for S&D to sign their real names to a contract when they know how powerful contracts are. And it was clearly important since most of the time they use aliases – why in this instance did they use their real names? It could have been as powerful a binding as taking the Mark of Cain for all they knew, they weren’t to know they were simply in a monster of the week episode.
I really begin to feel that this episode started as something else and got twisted around by a bunch of different pens making it as odd (this is the most tactful word I can think of to describe it) as it resulted.
*A better example would probably be an adult getting a credit card, signing the agreement, spending like money is going out of fashion and then being astonished when the credit card says they want their money back. And THEN discovering that the law really isn’t going to be on your side over all this – because you signed an agreement, and that is the power of your signature. (Having gone through all that and then doing it AGAIN the next time it seems like you need money …. is where we find the guys after 10 years of hunting – they should know better)
Could be because it did feel disjointed at times. I hated the dungeon scenes and now that I think about it, I wasn’t crazy about the actors/actresses in that scene either. Those scenes seemed like the same director didnt even shoot it. That strange feel may have been the intention it just didnt work for me. And the drinking of her own blood after she scraped her fingers raw? Not ewww, just stupid.
The best example of this is in Malleus Maleficarum. The women in the coven were signing away their souls for power, even when it became fully apparent that they thought it was just words and not that they were ACTUALLY selling their souls. The demon making the deal was pretending to be an ordinary housewife who happened to find this book that would give them power.
Yes! Great point – and you have reminded me of the kids in the body-swap episode. They sort-of knew what they were doing but they also sort-of thought it wasn’t real.
[quote]he just hasn’t come across any one lately who has flipped that switch[/quote]
Not to be flip or anything, but Sam would have to have an actual personal conversation with another character in order for the switch to be flipped. Name one single female Sam has spoken to that could have remotely been attracted to him or him to her or was introduced as a potential hook up for Sam? And the 75 year old nun doesn’t count!
Throughout the entire series of the Show? You realky can’t think of any?
Since this is part of the conversation about the virginity pledge, I’m pretty sure E is talking about the episodes after that. I can’t think of anyone that Sam has had a personal conversation with since that episode, who is a viable romantic partner. Just MHO.
The word “lately” was in your quote, I assumed that was sufficient parameter for the question. But if you must have a clarification … How about since this episode aired seeing as how that fits with the discussion we are already having.
It’s funny you brought that up because I was just wondering the other day if poor Sam is ever going to “get some” again. At least Demon Dean got enough action to last a lifetime. Sometimes I think it wold be a fun change of pace for Sam to run into that female hunter from Season 9 Ep. 2 (I forget her name) and have a whirlwind sex-filled night, complete with some intimate, personal conversation. It would be a side of Sam we haven’t seen in many years (not including Soulless Sam). I’m not holding my breath, however.
I would think that once the goddess was killed it would null and void any contracts with her.
I’m not sure. When Sam shot the CRD, it didn’t stop Dean’s deal. Even if you say that was because Lilith held the contract, we were told that Lilith held ALL the contracts. But we have never heard that people got out of their deals just because Lilith died. In Trial and Error the deals were valid for the entire family. There is leeway here, but we haven’t seen a case where killing the actual holder of the contract saved a person’s soul. The demon who made the deal had to revoke the contract for that to happen.
Good point. But I still do not take what Sam and Dean did as a contract with her. She even said they werent really virgins. She was using her own loophole she created. The boys were working a job, there was no intent behind those false pledges.
I’ve been rereading all of the comments above and maybe I’m just cynical about the writers, but I really don’t think they had any intention of Sam’s virgin status or the residual grace being plot lines for Sam. I think the only point of the virgin episode was just to have damsel in distress Sam being told by the goddess that he was a mess inside, so Dean would come close to telling him about Gadreel. It was all about Dean’s feelings of guilt for what he had done. I suspect the whole virgin storyline was used so they could have the scene of Dean in the virgin circle talking about sex. I’m sure the writer and producers thought that would be hilarious, but I thought it was over the top and silly. As far as the residual grace, I really thought it would have lasting significance and I was pretty excited about it. Especially because it implied that Sam still had some of Lucifer’s grace as well. But the way it ended was an exercise in pointlessness. It gave Cas and Sam something to do (because although I hated the second half of Season 9, and the portrayal of Sam, at least the writers gave Sam more to do in each episode than he’s had this year) but it had no real significance. In fact, the most cynical part of me thinks that they used that scene to remind everyone of how much Sam has screwed up. While Dean is off making the biggest mistake of his life by taking on the MOC no questions asked, we apparently need a reminder that Jeez, Sam has been the real biggest screw-up on the show. I guess that theory makes me the Oliver Stone of the fandom, seeing anti-Sam conspiracies everywhere!
Well as the one who kind of started the idea, I do sadly agree that it is unlikely that the writers intend to do anything with the fact that Sam is a born again virgin. It was more my hope that with all the canon that these writers have blasted to smithereens, that they would use their own canon to power a storyline. I do think the entire point of the episode was for the goddess to tell Sam that he was physically a wreck inside.
Samndean10, always remember that just cause you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you! :p I know what you mean though. The way I see it is that it isn’t an anti-Sam conspiracy (except by default). The way I see it is, there are a couple of senior writers on the staff who personally identify with Dean as a character because he either reminds them of themselves or is someone they would like to be. This is because they are guys. SPN has never been a guy-show though. It can’t simultaneously do huge melodrama AND stoic understatement, though they are trying to do just that, because they don’t seem to get it at all. And what they are ending up with is sort-of camp – like Vladimir Putin wrestling bears shirtless.
The problem is that for the majority of its run the show had a strong female writing staff who understood how to write male characters in a way that would appeal to (and be interesting for) women and a show-runner in Eric Kripke who could also see what it would be like to have male characters act in an emotionally vulnerable way, and have what (for men) is an unusual relationship. The fact that Jared and Jensen actually do seem to have that relationship is the lightning in the bottle that makes the thing work.
Hi Samandean sorry I left you hanging because I removed the more opinionated bit of my post (I have a habit of doing that) because I was going out and I wasn’t going to be around to defend/qualify it – I am putting it back now so that your response makes sense – my bad:
Why it doesn’t work now is because the writers have reduced it to its absolute extreme and just keep trying to push that. The extreme being that Dean is macho-yet-vulnerable (TM), loves his brother more than anything (yet fails to communicate with him), is obsessed with his car and women and must save the day. A typical male center character in a typical show. Dean is a more complex character than this, he deserves better.
Sam they don’t understand at all so they look at what the fans say and write him as being silent, internal, disinterested, a loner and there to be hit on the head, tied up, and rescued by Dean so that there can be hugs. It is so depressing because NONE of that is really Sam. This has only been the case since the new showrunner. Sam is not Lois Lane and he is not even Robin. He is a hunter who has been through hell. He is physically stronger than Dean, he has encyclopedic knowledge of hunting, he has been through more than anyone else in the SPN universe and is still upright. Jared gets Sam and Sam shines through for those willing to look for him, and even he is beginning to lose heart with what he is getting to play I think, since he changed his tune about what he saw as being important in the show last season. But he doesn’t have spiky hair, a leather jacket and an attitude so he isn’t (apparently) as much fun to write for – which shows an absolute and utter lack of imagination in the writing room. Please can we have Sera back? Please! We love Gadreel and Soulless!Sam and all the other characters Jared has played but we love real Sam more and real Sam is what we don’t ever get anymore.
Eilf, I totally agree with your insights about the women writers, especially Gamble. I was just wondering yesterday what Gamble and Kripke think about what’s been done to Sam’s character (assuming they still watch the show). What frustrates me more than anything is that besides Kripke, the male writer whose episodes have most often shown that he really “gets” Sam is Carver. I just cannot get over the fact that someone who has written some phenomenal Sam POV is allowing this butchering of Sam’s character to happen on his watch. I think with the current crop of writers, it’s not just that they don’t understand Sam, although it appears that none of them have watched the first 6-7 seasons of the show. It’s also that they’re not that interested in writing Sam. The reason I am a Sam fan (as much as I also love Dean) is because he’s a more complex and sensitive person than Dean IMO. He’s typically the one who looks for/understands the nuances in a situation. In previous seasons Sam would usually take the lead in questioning the civilians because he’s more sensitive and patient than Dean. Even Dean recognizes this as evident in his references to Sam’s puppy dog eyes. These are qualities in a man that are often more appreciated by women than by men (not to stereotype, but that’s my personal observation). But I’m guessing that a lot of the current writers think it’s far more entertaining to write Dean because he’s a more “manly” man and he’s funnier than Sam. So it seems that they first outline a story by figuring out what Dean will say and do, and then try to shoehorn Sam somewhere into the episode. This is my long-winded way of agreeing with you! BTW, what did you mean about Jared changing his tune about what was important last season?
Sorry to pester you eilf, but how did Jared change his tune about what was important last season?
Sorry, busy formulating an answer 😀 I am just interpreting from the con videos from last season. One in particular – which sadly, I think got taken down, (due to a Destiel spat *eyeroll*), to paraphrase, Jared thought early on the same as us about the season really, he felt the betrayal of Dean turning around and lying to Sam and doing something he would know that Sam absolutely wouldn’t want (having him possessed), was what the season was about. That it was going to be about Dean learning how to deal with their relationship the way Sam had had to in season 8. Jared seemed to feel that Sam had a right to be angry and that while he said cutting things it was in the way of someone who has been hurt lashing out. Sam has never previously defended his rights to Dean so it was interesting (and important) to see him doing it then. In other words the story as it was presented to us appeared to be going in the direction of Dean realising he needed to change his ways of dealing with Sam – like Jeremy Carver promised us: ‘maturity’. But at some point in the season there was a sea-change, a good deal of stuff sympathetic to this point of view of Sam got cut and Jensen started to talk about how Sam had always been self-centered and uninterested in what Dean was going through (which was this weird character bleed by him). Sam failed completely to ever finish a sentence to give us any insight into his mindset and when he did manage to finish one (in the Purge) Dean took it completely to heart and was devastated (never mind the fact that Dean has often been as harsh, and worse, with Sam and Sam has just taken it). Jared thought that the ‘same circumstances’ part of that conversation was the important bit of it, yet the next time the show included it in a ‘Then’ it was just ‘No Dean, I wouldn’t’.
Jensen suddenly started being overworked, episodes entirely devoted to making Dean look badly treated all his life appeared and the show did a right turn so that suddenly Sam was somehow at fault for all the things that had happened to him in the first half of the season, and every character that could possibly have an opinion or reflect on the brothers seemed written to make him look in the wrong for being angry. The show was pushing for Sam to just get over it.
There was no longer any talk about whether Dean had done anything more at the beginning of the season than save his brother – and since a large proportion of the fandom were saying that it was all about how much Dean loved Sam and how Sam was ungrateful not to realise it, along with reviewers etc saying much the same, I think they lost track of where they were going with the storyline. The fact that there are a lot of people who will tell you that Dean got the Mark of Cain BECAUSE Sam said he wouldn’t save him if he was dying (all of which is 100% inaccurate and also out of episode order) shows what a crappy job the show did of telling the story and the amount of sympathetic writing Sam has (not) had over the past few seasons.
And Jared’s take on it changed to Sam needing to have to ‘save’ Dean. Sam needed a ‘win’ for both brothers. He was basically doing damage-control in my opinion – and it shouldn’t have been necessary. Sam hasn’t actually done anything wrong since the beginning of season 8 (and really not even then) but it got to the stage you would think he had sold Dean to the devil for a packet of Luckies.
I don’t understand it at all to be honest, I REALLY don’t see how they got to the second half of the season from the first half, it didn’t make any sense to me and still doesn’t. But by the end of the season Sam was ‘whiny’ and ‘a baby’ and needed ‘a dictator’ to stop him getting himself killed every episode. I mean if the last episode was supposed to be about Dean forgiving Sam for betraying him all season it might have made some sense but you were watching it going ‘hang on a minute, that isn’t what happened!’ And by that stage Sam was being miss-written so incredibly that they (J2) tried to rewrite the episode themselves to try and recover any semblance of the brothers being brothers (the pretty awful ‘I lied’ business – guys (by which I mean the writers), we knew Sam didn’t mean that he wouldn’t save Dean, we KNOW Sam – WE watched the first 7 seasons, it was this new crop of writers, who apparently HAVEN’T watched anything before season 8 (even those who wrote some of the episodes) who were desperately looking for a way to create conflict that confused the story to that extent).
In season 9 Sam deserved some closure with Kevin and some with Gadreel and he was pushed out of both (this season the same thing has happened with Cole) And Sam has little to say because the writers don’t know how to write him.
This is basically the central thesis of why I am unhappy with the show at the moment. And I am only assuming that I have interpreted Jared’s thinking correctly, he won’t ever tell, that isn’t the sort of person he is – try to get him to say something bad about ‘New York Minute’ 😉
Has Jared actually said/acknowledged at a Con that Sam doesn’t have much to say this season? Of course he’s right but I’d love to know what he really thinks about Sam’s role this season. About Season 9, I think it’s the worst season of all and you laid out beautifully why. They really did switch mid-stream from the “maturity” arc to the never-ending save Dean from the MOC arc. It was just a botch job starting mid-season. If they don’t start including Sam in the plot I’m going to have the unpleasant task of deciding if whether this season is even worse than 9.
We are never going to know what Jared thinks of this season. :p I sort of feel that he has come to think of himself as the show’s cheerleader so if he were unhappy he wouldn’t say so.
I have to admit, as much as I’d like to know his thoughts, I love that he is too classy to bitch about anything publicly. I think one reason he and Jensen are so close is that they keep any issues they might have with the show private out of respect for each other and the SPN crew.
I have to say pretty much everyone seems to have no problems while working on the show. Well Misha’s fans seem to think that Misha genuinely gets abuse, because he complains about it, but I am fairly sure that is all just screwing around (including Misha). Otherwise it seems to be a happy place where they work hard and in between times act the fool to entertain themselves. 😉
I think being abused is Misha’s niche. Jared’s chew toy:) But I think it is all in good fun. They all seem to love each other. I do think the J’s gang up on him sometimes. Luckily he is a good sport and seems to enjoy it.
It’s hard to say how many problems they have with the show. Probably less than we think. Or maybe more than we will ever know because, as you say, they are classy. My feeling has always been that they are generally happy with their jobs, and feel lucky to have been a part of it all for 10 years. I am sure they have issues, after 10 years it would be weird if they didn’t. They keep most of it in-house. I think their attitude is ‘we are actors, we give it our all and are proud of our work’. They don’t ,as a rule, get involved, in the writing issues except for changing a line here or there. And a few front office visits as Jensen did when he heard the premise of the 200th. Frankly that one had me worried as well:) JMO.
I don’t think they have much problem on set TBH, the atmosphere seems to be a great deal more robust (though that could be because they are away from Hollywood up there – it might be more rarified on an LA set) than a lot of other jobs so I think that people might read more into the set stories than is actually there. For instance I kinda think that the moment Misha stops finding them funny – and stops cracking when they mess with him – he would be perfectly capable of putting in a performance no matter what. They mess around because otherwise they would go insane.:p
I don’t know how Misha fans could really be upset with how he’s treated by the Js. Misha’s mockumentary shows his amazing sense of humor about the set antics and the genuine fondness they all feel for each other. If he’s actually unhappy, then he is the most outstanding actor of the century. I really wish the mockumentary had been longer- everything about it was hilarious.
Once again, I couldn’t agree more! This is a very good summary of what went wrong. I think you are right, it’s almost like TPTB changed tactics part way through the season, going from “Lets show Dean the error of his ways and have him grow up” to “Lets show Sam that the way Dean does things is right, and more heroic” and he did it for “love” and that’s when the lost me. There is no way I can get on board with the possession as being the right thing to do and the fact that they began to champion that act and show Sam in the wrong there is the worst part of season 9 and why I hate it even more than season 8 (where Sam was also wrong), and that’s saying something. Now we have a Sam who does nothing and I guess that is supposed to be “right” as far as the writers are concerned.
I, speaking for me, myself and I, do not in anyway want Sera back or Soulless Sam back or Gadreel Sam back.
I want Season 2 Sam back: Usual Suspects, Sam. Nightshifter Sam. That Sam.
I’ll even take Season 3 Sam back: Sin City Sam, Bedtime Stories Sam. Jus In Bello Sam. That Sam.
If you insist, I’ll welcome Season 4 Sam back: Yellow Fever Sam. Monster Movie Sam. Wishful Thinking Sam. That Sam.
And should I be granted what I want, allow me to add: Fluid storylines, action, anticipation, unpredictable drama (not personal angst and guilt and self-loathing, but [i]drama[/i]), plots, themes, set-me-on-the-edge-my-seat-chewing-on-my-knuckle-I-can’t-believe-he-did-that, suspense. (Supernatural budget, CW audience target approved, of course)
I’m quite selfish.:)
If I could fulfill your wishes I would 🙂 I agree totally, especially about season 2 Sam. We could then sit back and eat popcorn and watch the two brothers kicking it in the ass.
However those days are very likely dead and gone (they’re with O’ Leary in the grave).
I loved SS and Gadreel because Jared is too good to be wasted as scenery and he was so incredibly good as those characters I don’t want to dismiss their importance.
eilf, I totally agree with your assessment. You know sometimes I forget that Dean hasn’t exactly fared well as a character under this new crop of writers either. I mean, their take on his character is so one dimensional that Dean often comes across (to me) like a dictatorial bore who has totally lost what used to be a very fun sense of humor. So both characters have really suffered. But with Dean at least the writers show interest in writing him, where with Sam they don’t.
Well samandean10, you’re not the only one to think so; your comment pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. As far as conspiracies go, I’ll take it one step further. I am of the belief that not one single plot point has actually been about Sam since Carver took over. Pretty much everything since the start of season 8 can be seen as a means to manipulate Dean into the MoC mess that he’s currently in; Purgatory and Sam’s not looking, the trials, Sam being at death’s door, the possession…. everything has been about Dean. This explains why Sam’s not looking for Dean was never adequately explained, why Sam’s side of the possession was not adequately shown, why he’s doing absolutely nothing now, and why he interacts with pretty much no one else on the show. Because its not necessary to Carver’s vision and the completely Dean centric story that he is telling. What Sam feels, what he wants, what he does is irrelevant outside of how those things effect Dean and only Dean’s reactions are shown to any of it. I had posed a question above asking when was the last time Sam had any kind of meaningful personal conversation with another character aside from Dean the way Dean does in nearly every single episode. The answer seems to be either 9×11 or possibly 9×1….. pretty telling IMO.
I suppose it’s not a far stretch to see the conversation that Sam had with Cas in 9×11 as a reminder of how big of a screw up Sam is as a means to mitigate what Dean had done with the possession and what he was about to do with the MoC… the show has done that before… Bad Boys was an entire episode of mitigation that I found nauseatingly manipulative and a very transparent attempt to make up forget what Dean had done TO Sam by whacking us over the head with stories of how much Dean had done FOR Sam in the past…. like we didn’t already know. And they completely trashed canon and John as a character to do it too.
IMO Sam has not had a significant plot since season 6 when he was soulless or possibly season 7 with his hallucinations which were very poorly handled and atrociously resolved, but at least those plots were about Sam as a character, unsatisfactorily handled or not. Now we don’t’ even get this much in regards to Sam. It’s as you said above….. Sam is a cypher and has ceased to be a character in his own right under Carver and Co.
E, I guess we were writing our comments at the same time. I think you’re right about the whole arc from seasons 8-10 revolving around Dean to the exclusion of Sam, but I’ll reiterate what I just asked in my response to Eilf -why is Carver doing this, given that he has written some of best episodes featuring strong Sam plot and POV? What caused him to change the focus from both brothers to just Dean? I just wish I knew the answer.
I do not know maybe Jeremy is just showing his true colours ? the writers esp Adam are just too much Dean centric to believe that Sam needs a pov as well. The lack of thought for Sam last season was shocking and showed a complete lack of desire to put forward Sam’s side of a very personal painful situation he never asked for.
It’s a depressing thought that these are Carver’s true colors, because that means if he and the writing staff are all back next year, we can expect more of the same treatment of Sam. I’m clinging to the hope that they will unveil some fantastic Sam arc in the next few episodes that will carry into next year. Better late than never!
Who knows why ultimately, and like eilf said, we’ll probably never hear why from any of the actors, they are all fiercely loyal. We do know that there are at least a few writers who are professed “Dean Fans” and who clearly have some kind of bizarre fantasy type of hero worship for what they think Dean represents, and those writers write in that irritatingly one dimensional way, seemingly indulging their fantasy rather than writing an actual character (AG I am looking at YOU; AD you are not far behind, RT you’re the best of the bunch as a writer but your preoccupation with all things Dean is obvious). We also know that Jensen is more vocal about things he doesn’t care for and goes to the writers when he sees something he doesn’t like. Maybe those two things combined have created the atmosphere we have now. Maybe TPTB have decided that Dean is the more “interesting” of the two characters (he has more trappings of ‘hero’ than Sam does on a very shallow level anyway) and since TPTB have been increasingly dumbed down the show to bring it in line with their other teen driven dramas, I wouldn’t be surprised if the changes we are seeing are coming from the top level.
Its sad to read all this negativity about Sam’s role this season. I know nothing about writing, camera angles,and I’ve just learnt what Canon means, I only know what I read about the SPN writers. I come here to learn to read and to try and understand more about my favourite show SPN. I get that from here, and love reading everything. As a novice and a person who sees the show for the entertainment that it is. I wonder if we are reading to much into everything. I have watched S1-S10 at least 5 times. Yes I can now see how Great S1-S5 was. Then it does seem to wobble abit I agree. But in their defense did they expect it to go beyond this season.??????? If not they would have had to scramble to write up more eps, Most shows you watch today only have maybe 10 -12 episodes each season I am amazed we get 22-23.
Maybe S1-S5 should have been set aside as a great 5 seasons and then S6 and beyond should have been marketed in another way then it would have been judged on its own merits & not so constantly compared to the Kripke era He had a dream he created portrayed it with brillance and moved on The End.
Yes Sam seems to be in the back ground alot Yes I would like to see Sam more involved. But throughout S6 to present Sam has dealt with his demons and changed and matured – but Dean never has his always just been Dean now with MOC he is truly screwed and he really can’t deal This season for me is seeing a Dean thats either gonna resolve all his inner hate, doubts and anger and come out the other side as a true equal to Sam or I hate to say it CRASH. I love Sam but I think he needs to back off – this is Dean’s fight a very very personnal fight All Sam can do is be there. support, and pick up any peices.
Nobody seemed to complain much when each ep was about Sam. — Sam possed by Meg or Gadriel or Sam with Demon blood, or with a cracked head, or Sam going off to find himself, Sam having a yr off, Sam no soul should I keep going. Give Dean a go lets see what happens. I love both characters, I love both Jared & Jenson xxoo. The way both boys talk about there characters with passion and protection I honestly beleive if they weren’t happy with the way the shows going they would speak up I HOPE. Love to all Jen xo
Well with respect there were alot of compliants about Sam and what he was having has a character . And in each of the aspects you brought up Meg’s possession of Sam was for one episode not a season long sl and in all the things Sam has had Dean was intergal to all that was going on , it was through his eyes we literally saw all of it because he was and is the pov character.
Which is my biggest issue with last season and resulted in the victim blaming that went on and still does.
Nobody objects to Dean having the mytharc but the big issue people had with Sam last year and since season 8 is he has not done enough for Dean and needs to do a ‘Dean Winchester’ to prove his love so him backing off would not help him in the eyes of alot in the fandom . Now despite my own personal feelings should not Sam be as intergal to what is happening to Dean as Dean as been to what ever was happening to Sam ? was he not at least owed that ?.
Thanks Sharon that makes it clearer – I agree Sam does need to show more of his Love for Dean – he does appear to have lost his way ( The writers ) do you think the MOC is maybe a personal fight like I suggested maybe its not like a problem that can be shared. I feel Sam has proven his Love for Dean – but in a more practical way which suits his character, His not a act first ask questions latter type of guy like Dean
In S8Ep14 Trial & Error – Sam says to Dean – I can see the light at the end tunnel – Let me take you there. I think we have to wait and see Have faith in the writers & hope we get our answers from Ep15 onwards
Jen, Sam “backing off” is IMO where SPN is going wrong. SPN has always been a show about 2 brothers, and during all of Sam’s trials and tribulations Dean has been there with him every step of the way- we saw every event predominantly through Dean’s eyes and he has been an integral part of Sam’s overcoming all of the obstacles he’s faced. And during most story lines involving Sam there has been a story line involving Dean that was featured just as prominently, if not more so. What’s different now is that Sam has almost nothing to do or say except be supportive, and we get no insight into what he’s thinking. That has NEVER been the case with Dean during the show. I have no problem with Dean getting the myth arc (although I do think it’s dragging on way too long, and I really miss funny, light-hearted Dean), and I agree that Dean needs to show some emotional growth, but for Sam to be reduced to saying “you can do this Dean” for episode after episode has completely changed the central dynamic of the show (and the reason why I’m so obsessed with it)- the fact that it is about TWO brothers and their messy, crazy, intense relationship and their shared adventures. An episode or two which features one brother more prominently is fine, a whole season of it is not.
The MoC is not a personal problem only affecting Dean…it is a problem for BOTH the brothers. What effects one brother has always affected the other brother; that’s the entire premise of this show and always has been, although you’d never know it by the way the currently story line is being written. Was Dean’s deal in season 3 shown to be only Dean’s problem with Sam sitting around doing nothing? No. Was Sam’s demon blood issue shown only to be Sam’s problem and Dean wasn’t involved? No. What affects one brother affects the other. Dean has ALWAYS been totally immersed in anything and everything that has ever involved Sam; his powers, the demon blood, soullessness, hallucinations etc…. Dean was always shown to be involved there, helping Sam, pushing him, punishing him, and the effect all of these issues had on Dean was well documented. Now, we have Dean being the center of the myth arc, but is Sam involved in this? Other than silently worrying in the background the answer is a resounding NO. Name one time Sam had a monologue where he told another character how scared he is for Dean, how much he wants to help Dean or perhaps fears that he won’t be able to or that he might make a mistake given his past? There has been nothing like that at all. When Sam was under the effects of Demon Blood Dean got to discuss his fears for Sam with Chuck, Bobby and Cas over and over and over again until Sam’s demon blood story was as much about the effect on Dean as it was on Sam. This is also and especially true of the Soulless Sam story; It’s effect on Dean was just about the only thing that was shown as Sam wasn’t reacting to much of anything and had no emotion. When Sam was going through the trials Dean got that wonderful scene where he prayed to Castiel to look out for his little brother. Has Sam had anything like that now that Dean is the one in trouble? No. Additionally, Dean has had his own issues while Sam was dealing with stuff; mostly notably in season 2 and 4. In season 2, while Sam was dealing with his emerging powers, Dean was dealing with John’s Death and story that Sam was pretty much excluded from. In season 4 while Sam was being taken over by the demon blood (a story Dean was completely involved with BTW) Dean was dealing with Hell trauma, and Castiel and being the Michael Sword etc… none of which Sam was especially involved in. So it seems that Dean is NEVER excluded from Sams’ story while sometimes Sam is excluded from Deans and to say that he’s being excluded from the MoC story now is a vast understatement, because Sam has been completely excluded from Deans story to the point that he has ceased to exist as a character. He doesn’t even speak to any other characters other than Cas and Dean and never says one personal thing ever. We only know he’s worried for Dean because of his never ending worried looks delivered from the background. But other than that one statement “Dean’s in trouble” what exactly has Sam said about the whole thing? Not much. And what has Sam said about how Dean’s MoC issues are affecting him on a personal level? I mean, having your bother being turned into a demon and having a supernatural entity attached to him that cannot be removed and may ultimately result in Sam’s own death, you’d thing Sam would have some kind of personal reaction. I mean, is Sam afraid that Dean might kill him seeing as how that’s what the MoC is all about? We don’t’ know because he’s not said anything at all of a personal nature or expressed any fears for himself. That is inequality in the writing plain and simple. It’s been worse since season 8, but has existed on some level since season 4. Even in season 2 Kripke admitted in an interview that Sam’s reaction to John’s death was totally ignored and he regretted that.
You may think my and other fans reactions here are “negative” but not everyone is going to agree on things. I have a right to my opinion whether you view it as negative or not.
I don’t think Jen said anywhere that you didn’t have a right to your negative opinion. She just didn’t share it or completely understand it. That was her opinion. Which she has every right to just like you.
And where did I say she didn’t have a right to hers? Please don’t put words in my mouth.
Ok everybody I will shut up now my feelings are hurt I’m obviously not saying things right. I hope Sam’s position changes over the rest of the season & he speaks up about his feelings and saves his brother
Jen don’t let the passionate responses discourage you. You made some valid points that obviously spurred a lively discussion. You are not wrong and no one else is right. It is a discussion like politics or religion, you need to know going in that the SPN universe is full of wildly different interpretations and it is a very passionate group.
Jen, I am sorry that you were offended by my post, I did not mean it in an offensive way, just trying to give my opinion that what one poster sees as negative another poster will not and that negative does not necessarily mean bad. Please keep posting, we could probably use a few more happy fans around here as many of us are distantly NOT happy with the show at the moment and we will continue to come here to say so.
Hi Jen, I understand, but please don’t let differing opinions hurt your feelings. We all know (or should know) this is a TV show. That we all love (or did love) to some degree or another. It all comes from love. There are many here who are very disappointed about the direction it’s taken and I think it makes them feel better to express their frustrations about it rather than just give up entirely. Don’t take it personally. There are strong opinions here. Most of us try and be respectful in how we present them. Sometimes tempers flare. Mostly we work it out between us or just move on and agree to disagree. This is truly one of the better places to express your opinions and read interesting article and reviews. Hang in there and just express how you feel, Jen. If you don’t agree with someone either ignore it or respond. Know that you will likely get people who don’t agree. That’s fine. 🙂
Don’t be hurt Jen. Nobody says things ‘right’, there is no right, there is just opinion and POV. If we had a person who could come on here and definitively say ‘this is what the issue/problem/story is’ and everyone else – EVERYONE – agreed with them the next sentence would be “well … ok then … now we have nothing else to talk about” *tumbleweed* and Alice and Nightsky would be bored (course sometimes Alice and Nightsky would like to be bored, but we like to keep them on their toes).
Sometimes when I get into a reply to someone it isn’t so much that I am disagreeing with them as I get totally into a point that I hadn’t thought about when I started and so someone says ‘I think Jared’s hair should be longer’ and I have written a reply which is 9 paragraphs on the nature of reality as it applies to the Mark of Cain.
If Jeremy Carver came on here and said ‘this is what the story actually is, no argument’ … well I don’t think the argument would end until the internet ran out of pixels. All of us have someone who disagrees with us (or more than one someone) for better or worse reasons but discussing stuff is (should be) fun. It is tough when you first start posting and get a disagreeing reaction it is true but your opinion is your opinion and you are entitled to it 🙂
Don’t give up 🙂
Hi Jen. As someone who is feeling negatively about the show right now, I was a little sensitive about your comment that it makes you sad to read the negativity and that those who feel negatively might be reading too much into things. While you didn’t mean it offensively, I did feel a little defensive when I read it. And I understand why the negativity gets you down. When I first started reading about SPN online and episodes that I had really liked were almost universally disliked, it did somewhat diminish my enjoyment so I stopped reading online reviews/comments. So I get what you’re feeling. I feel like I’m in a tiny minority of SPN fans who totally enjoyed It’s Time For A Wedding (yep, I admit it- Becky was over the top but I thought Sam, Dean and Garth were hilarious- Dean’s initial reaction to the news is still IMO one of the funniest scenes on the show). So I just don’t read reviews or comments that will detract from my enjoyment. It’s my understanding that some writers have even left this site because of negativity, although maybe that’s incorrect. But as someone who has entirely too much invested in this show and in the brothers, I am very distressed by what’s happening to Sam’s character, and in this instance reading comments from like-minded people oddly enough makes me feel better. I guess misery does love company! I sometimes hate how negative my feelings are because SPN is my favorite show ever, and the last thing I want to do is diminish someone else’s enjoyment of it, so I’m hanging in there and hoping for a change. But obviously you share my love of SPN and just have a different take on things, and that’s fine. I love how even amidst all the disagreements on this site I keep finding new insights into the show and characters that had never occurred to me. I want to be feeling more positive about the show, and some posts shine a light on positive aspects that I hadn’t thought of. Long story short, keep on writing-maybe you can convince me that all is right on SPN!
Sorry Jen but I have to agree with samandean10 here… I felt the same way that they did, that somehow negative = bad and that anyone who is negative should change the way they feel, so I too felt defensive. I am truly glad that you are happy with the show there are so few fans left who are; especially those of us long timers (having watched most or all of the show in real time, from 2005 with hiatuses and all to get through). And you should continue to post. Just know that as a staunch defender of all things Sam that the current structure of the show irks me to no end. To say that I am disappointed in the way in which his character is being handled is the understatement of the year. But I am also an enormous defender and fan of Jared’s and he deserves my loyalty to the show. Quite frankly I can’t think if going a week without seeing him on my television screen and it’s for him and him alone that I watch. Had they killed Sam off in 9×1, I would have stopped watching Supernatural immediately and followed Jared on to his next project no matter what that might have been.
My comments tend to be of a critical nature even if the episode was a good one (like Executioners Song) that’s how I am. But I am not of the opinion that critical means negative nor does negative necessarily mean bad. If that kind of thing upsets you perhaps in future you can give my comments a pass.
Thanks everybody for your kind respones – I do very very much LOVE SPN — perhaps a bit much I don’t know how to explain my feelings except perhaps to say I’m probably a little obsessed. I do have my own demons & maybe if I say I support Jared’s campaign personnaly you might understand, anyway Thanks again I do like reading everybodys opinions – I just maybe won’t say to much until I learn more
I am now noticing more & more the bad writing thats been given to Sam, – this season,- is supposed to be a emotional journey for both boys & all Sam seems to do is stand around dumb founded and even some things Dean says to me appear very out of character. Would it be dumb to say that maybe Sherriff Mills (Jody) should have been brought in to support Sam – In Hibbing, she suggested this to Dean ?? I think she would have been a good Mother image for the boys and her and Sam seemed to relate well together on Phatom Traveller. Anyway Guys Thanks again I hope the next time we chat its about HAPPY THINGS ON SPN xxoo I won’t use the word negative ever again LOL I will find a different word
Hey Jen!!! I hope they haven’t scared you off. Yes, they can come on strong and some would say aggressive, but as they themselves say, they are passionate and unhappy with the way the season is going so they sometimes have a tendency to lash out. Don’t let that keep you from expressing your views. If hotter heads prevail, do what someone earlier in the thread suggested, just ignore them. We still would love to hear your thoughts!
AlyCat22, I hope that you don’t think my original comment to Jen was hot headed or constitutes “lashing out.” Lashing out seems to imply a personal attack on Jen, and I’ve reread my post around 10 times to see if it can be construed that way. I prefaced my remarks with “IMO” because it IS just an opinion, and I tried to provide the basis for my opinion. I disagreed with part of Jen’s post, but I in no way intended to demean her observations or attack her, and if my comment came off that way, I would appreciate your telling me where I crossed the line. The last thing I ever want to do is engage in personal attacks, so if I inadvertently did just that, I would really like to know where my comment went wrong so I can avoid offending anyone in the future. I’m being sincere, because I feel terrible that my comments upset Jen.
Hi samandean10. I am not sure that it is one posters place to “pass judgement” on another persons post… as a matter of fact, it is my understanding that it is against the rules. And so is criticizing an entire group of posters and their posts by slapping on a label that can be construed as derogatory, demeaning, dismissive and prejudicial.
I just feel a little sick at the thought that people perceive my post as an attack on Jen. If that is the case then I need to rethink how I reply to other people’s comments.
Your post was not attacking, it just wasn’t. I’m sorry Jen’s feelings were hurt but I think it was the numerous responses all of a sudden that scared her a bit. And now she knows that our passion is not personal. I think she’s fine, her response showed that there was no ill will and I think she will continue to post here. You really did nothing wrong. I for one really look forward to the insight in your posts, so I hope you keep right on posting and don’t let an unprovoked and vicious attack sway you against doing so.
Thank you.
I’ve been following this discussion and I want to reassure you that I say no attack in you post. You are passionate, like most, if not all of the people on this site. I appreciate that you explained to Jen that you didn’t mean to attack her and that she is more than welcome to post on this site. We do welcome everyone’s opinions and we are more than happy to discuss and defend our opinions. Just to clarify by we, I mean all the members of the WFB family. We are a family. There is not Them, there is only Us, even when we disagree.
Thanks Percysowner
I wasn’t doing that as I’ve explained, but I’m glad to see that in Jens last response she wrote ‘I just maybe won’t say too much until I learn more’ and she ‘won’t use the word negative ever again, I’ll pick a different word, lol’ It would personally bother me if someones initial experience with a board conversation ended in – ‘I just maybe won’t say too much until I LEARN MORE !!!! Don’t be surprised if she never posts on this board again. And did you notice that shes from Australia – maybe she has difficulty trying to come up with the right wording… She was clearly hurt and overwhelmed but I’m wrong to reach out. Good to know.
You didn’t samandean10. I don’t think anyone was attacked or jumped on. I do think it can appear that way to a new poster who is just trying to share their thoughts. When I first found the courage to post a few years back I made the mistake of saying “the show should have ended” in S5. Oh my god, did I hear about that! I was condemning Sam to burn in hell and be tortured for all eternity. I almost left and never came back. I stayed, learned a few lessons and am still here. Still occasionally putting my foot in my mouth.:D
Just curious- did you respond to the harsh comments or ignore them?
I did make a response but it did hurt my feelings. I hadn’t really thought it through when I said that, and told them so. I didn’t feel very welcome. BUT I sucked it up and came back and subsequently read many long and compelling debates. I was hooked! Some of the debates (not fights) went on all day and it was great. Not that tempers didn’t flare on occasion. I learned not to take things so personally and to realize that people love and are passionate about the main characters and the show. I tried to understand if not always agree. 🙂
Well put Leah… I also don’t think anyone was attacked or jumped on unfairly. We are all passionate and sometimes that can be scary to a new poster. There’s only one truly attacking post here and all we can do is report and hope that Alice takes care of it.
So Leah Did one of the lessons you learned from that experience happen to be not to speak your mind or have an alternate opinion? You made a mistake expressing how you felt? How does that sound right to you? You sound almost apologetic when you never should have had to feel that way back then in the first place.
I have NO problem speaking my mind. I just don’t do it in such a way that usually annoys people. I try and be respectful of the opinions of others. Back then it was my first time posting. I am not interested in arguing for days nor do I need to have the last word.
I never thought you do and that’s wonderful now, but you said yourself that it hurt your feelings and you didn’t feel very welcome. I didn’t want the new poster to feel that she had that kind of experience anymore than you would and that is exactly why I reached out. I don’t doubt that you try to be respectful of posters, that you don’t insist on having the last word nor do you want to argue for days on end. Nor do I.
Hey! Just read your reply. Got to run, Ill be back in about an hour and post then!
I wasn’t singling you out. I’m sorry if you thought so. I was thinking in terms of how the new person perceived what someone earlier said that ‘we’re all passionate and that can be seen as scary to a new poster’ and it obviously did because of the response she gave about her feelings being hurt. Again perception. How she initially took it. Ive been a new poster, I know how you all can be and Im not a wilting flower, but some people are. I don’t know if you guys realize how strong you can come across but maybe you do now. Once again, not singling you out here S&D10. I meant no ill will and yet now there are people reporting me to the Admin… and no, I’m not playing the victim I’m just stating fact. For the benefit of those people I will start putting a disclaimer at the end of eacjh sentence, phrase, remark or paragraph so that there is no further misunderstanding… Like for instance: Humor: when somethings funny… Sarcasm: when its something funny with a bite… Turn of phrase… Irony… Quote… and for some who keep insisting it’s there when its not… Insult. Sorry that was my sarcastic dry sense of humor sneaking out… I’d better stop now before I say something else that can, and I’m sure will be misconstrued, but suffice it to say I didnt mean to offend you. Thanks for reaching out to me!
I know you didn’t single me out but elsewhere on the site Jen did and it was like a gut punch when I read it. I work in a school where it seems like we spend inordinate amounts of time lecturing about bullying, and suddenly I felt like I had unintentionally bullied someone. Talk about feeling like a steaming pile of crap! So I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure out why my post came off that way. I did not mean to start a big brouhaha.
Unfortunately posts can so easily be misinterpreted! Where we might intend an inflection, emphasis, tone, joke, turn of phrase… one way it is often taken another! People tend to take things way too literally a lot of times. I try to choose my words carefully here but we can’t please everybody and quite honestly it’s exhausting. I’m sure it wasn’t your post it was probably more how many responses she got so quickly that threw her. Plus you explained so I’m sure it’s all good. Some people are more sensitive than others, feelings hurt more easily. It shouldn’t take a thick skin to post on a board but oftentimes just as in any form of social media, it helps!
In regards to the “Us and Them” of my post some people thought they saw and took offense to? I said “They” because “I” wasn’t involved in any of the responses to the new poster. If I had been, I would have written “We” — I should think that would have been fairly self explanatory had the post been read in the spirit with which it was intended. As far as hotter heads, I was speaking in terms of the board. Hotter heads sometimes do prevail, and I was backing up what someone said prior about ignoring those posters when it happens. This was your advice as well, you just don’t like the way I chose to say it. Tell me there aren’t hotter heads on the board from time to time!?!
Ok life is too short for some things.
Can we PLEASE not let this conversation devolve into prejudicial and derogatory “Us” and “Them” stereo types? I’d like to thing we are beyond that kind of thing.
I agree E, we have enough difference of opinions here with out developing an US vs THEM mentality. WE may disagree but we should not start thinking of each other as adversaries. I don’t mind debating about the writing, characters, etc but if it becomes a warzone I am done here. There have been FAR too many arguments that drag out for days lately.
It wasn’t meant that way. I was repeating what you yourselves have said: You are passionate. You are unhappy with the direction of the show/Sams role. You were all apologizing for coming on strong in your response to her. She was the one who said she would shut up now and that her feelings were hurt. I also reiterated what an earlier poster had said about just ignoring posts if she felt uncomfortable or whatever (Im not quoting anyone here) I wasnt attacking, I was just agreeing. If you read the comment negatively then maybe its because you recognize you were wrong. Not every comment has to be responded to so agressively. You all apologized for your own actions., and yeah, sometimes you do come on a little strong and aggressive but you already know that. I just didnt want her to be scared off by the “big bad mean posters!!!” Joking!
What part of “lash out” “aggressive” “hotter heads” doesn’t sound confrontational. All I saw were sincere apologies including mine for any offense no matter how unintentional Jen might have taken. Even Jen didn’t categorize the other posters in this way. And “big bad mean posters” isn’t a very funny joke.
I am a little confused Alycat. I never made any response to Jen originally. My post to her was to try and make her feel better. She felt attacked and her feelings were hurt. I tried to explain it wasn’t personal. I don’t respond to posts aggressively and rarely come on strong, that is not my style!! No one here is a “big bad mean poster”. Bad joke. It had calmed down and Jen understood and left a lovely post. Then you came on and left a post that stirred it all up again. Who is the coming on “strong” and “aggressive” poster?
Leah – I apologize, I wasnt addressing the you in my post as you personally, it was meant more of a “collective you” as in everyone who had posted and then apologized. I didn’t mean to start anything. If you read my original post Im not being judgemental… I am repeating what was said – passionate, not happy with season/Sams part in it… I didnt think my post was inappropriate as I was trying to encourage the poster. You guys were the ones who thru your own posts, elicited the response of her feelings being hurt… I just wanted to let her know not to let our sometimes over zealous or emotional posts run her off. You guys recognized your own unintentional enthusiasm and then apologized to her. Its not an us and them thing. I’ve been on the receiving end, I didn’t want her to leave. Not everything is a confrontation guys. Then when I try to explain, you parse my sentences and pick out words that you are taking in a seriously negative way. Lash out? Yeah, its been done here. Did I mean it in the way you guys obviously took it? No. Everytime I post I have to examine each word for fear it might upset one of you. You guys have your phasers automatically set on stun so that you are always primed and ready whenever you see my posts. Few of you ever give me the benefit of the doubt. You want to take my original post that way? Fine, nothing I can do about it. You want to report me like we are all 12? Nothing I can do about that either. You want to develop a thicker skin so that we arent all so easily offended? I will join you. I just explained where I was coming from, I’m not going to continue to do so because it will only further make matters worse. You will believe what you want. Just for the record and I am saying this in a – maybe you weren’t aware of it ,PSA kind of thing – as opposed to fueling the fire further but I know of many people that have found this site less than welcoming, shall we say, and have felt that they had to leave (which is a nicer way of putting run off). Just so you know, it isn’t all me. I didn’t want to see that happen to anyone else.
Note from your Admin – I’ve had a lot of recent posts reported and several complaints. I MUST remind. We are here to discuss the promotional photos. Somehow we’ve veered off topic, and I’m too tired tonight to got through and edit each post individually. So I’ll issue a warning now, back on topic, or I start un-publishing entire posts. Thanks much.
Complaints are about a post I made and then probably several follow up responses. Please read them as I meant no ill will. I have apparently started a Us ~vs Them thing. You have my email if you wish to discuss. Thanks.
1) looks like Dean gets to expound about his plight *sigh*.To cole who has not bothered apologizing to Sam.
2) Sam-He is going to talk to a woman about her *sigh*.Then he standing with gun drawn talking to that woman.Then we have the rash-guy chocking her ..sam presumably unconscious.nothing unencountered by me .
My predictions…
1)Sam is unconscious while Dean and recently rejuvinated Cole come and save the woman.
2) Dean already has saved Cole while talking about himself and his tortured soul *sniff*.
3) Cole and the woman will prostrate in front of Dean thanking him while Sam will be waiting for Dean in the car.
4) Dean will be battling his MOC induced seizure or rage while cole will tell him to calm down.Dean shouts and faints.Sam hearing the shout comes running to Dean in slow motion and Sam girls will rejoice about Sam’s hair.
5) while saving those two and Sam he will also save the guy (highly unlikely ) but looks like writers like kissing Dean’s a**.
Thank you for starting off my day with a good laugh. I especially liked #4 on your list- hopefully Sam’s hair will be wet in that scene.
[quote]Thank you for starting off my day with a good laugh.[/quote]I am glad I did.Have a great day.
Yup, that’s Sam. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.