Official CW Press Release for Supernatural 10.15
We have our first description of 10.15.
“The Things They Carried” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) COLE PAYS A VISIT TO THE WINCHESTERS — Despite Dean’s (Jensen Ackles) directive to forget about looking for a cure for the Mark of Cain, Sam (Jared Padalecki) continues to do research. Dean suspects Sam is hiding something but decides to focus on a new murder case where they run into Cole (guest star Travis Aaron Wade). The three team up and learn a Khan worm is infecting men and turning them into murderers. Unfortunately, the worm makes it’s way into Cole. John Badham directed this episode written by Jenny Klein (#1015). Original airdate 3/18/2015.
We get Cole back. I’m guessing the Khan worm is that creature that Eve created that we saw in “And Then There Were None?” And we get Sam and secrets and lies and Dean being probably not happy? And why does Dean get to order Sam to not look for a cure for the MOC?
What do you think? Is the Khan worm what we saw when they killed off Samuel, Gwen and Rufus? Is it good or bad that Sam disobeys Dean’s orders? Are you glad to see Cole return? What are your thoughts? Share in the comments.
So having been told that wearing the MOC will eventually have Dean kill Crowley -which should be an Eh for Dean, Cas -which should bug him some, and Sam – which should bother him a LOT; Dean decides that there is no good reason to get rid of the thing. If he kills all of them no biggie? But SAM is going to go dark because he prefers to not be a murder victim and to not see Dean kill his friends? And the biggest take away is Sam is awful for lying to Dean, who is doesn’t care if he murders Sam? I’m oddly unsurprised.
I believe it was Sam who told Dean a while back that further research on getting rid of the mark was a waste of time. Maybe Sam is researching ways to kill Dean if he goes off the rails. If after extensive research and his showdown with Demon Dean in the bunker, Sam hasn’t figured out that the mark could cause Dean to kill him, then he is a dumbass. If Dean kills Crowley and Cas first though that would definitely be a clue to Sam. That is assuming Cain was telling the truth about any of it.
Dumbass. Hee! Ok, I’m a 7 year old! I’m kinda thinking that Sam has given up on the SOP for the research on the MOC and he’s going to try “every Psychic, Soothsayer, and Hoodoo Priestess in the Lower 48” now… wasn’t that the line from Season 3? The ep with the monster that imitated Johns voice? A Crocota? What I mean is I think Sam is going to start to seriously think outside, possibly WAY outside the box here. I think Dean will remove himself from Sam if he finds he’s slipping that badly. I don’t think Dean will risk being in close proximity to him at that point. In the meantime he tries to control it – contain it – isn’t that what Jensen said at the Con? I suspect someone is going to interfere with Deans best laid plans… Rowena, perhaps? I almost wish they would bring Magnus back – he was deliciously slimy and creepily interested in Dean.
In other news…Khan Worm guys!!! Khan Worm! Finally something other than your standard monsters! You know, Vampires, Werewolves, Charlie…
I sincerely doubt Dean is going to tell Sam about Cains list anytime soon. Maybe Cas. Dean was told by Cain himself that there is no cure and I would say he probably believes he was telling the truth so he would rather not see Sam do anything that might be drastic or endanger himself in his desperate search for a cure. Jensen said at PhoenixCon that Dean continues to try to contain the MOC while Sam works to save him. Dean probably feels there is nothing else left for him to do. Dean has got to be at a total loss at this point.
As far as Cole returning… Hells yes!!! Kahn worm? Where did one survive? Wasn’t the one in Bobby that they killed – “Shrimp on the barbie!!!” – the only one Eve cooked up? Or did one survive riding the little kid who then killed his older brother? Who cares!!! I love that they are revisiting an oldie but goodie! Hopefully they will not butcher canon too badly but if you think about it that could be said to be up in the air since Eve was creating – some more successful than others – various monsters. So some wiggle room to be had storywise. JEFFERSON STARSHIPS. Ohhhhhh yeah! “Shes here, and she’s pissed!” I’m really excited about this one. I was thinking too since the Khan worm will be inside Cole maybe it will be able to reveal some truths that even Cole doesn’t know? Sounds like Cole might be doing a little Hunting on the side? Yaaaaasssss!
Well, I find the idea that Dean is sitting around thinking, “hey, I’m going to murder Sam because of the Mark, but I’m not going to warn him or give him any chance whatsoever to even try to stay alive” far worse than my original thought. But hey, it’s possible that Dean just wants Sam to be an easy murder target so he’s doing everything he can to make sure Sam is completely unaware he’s in danger from Dean. To me, it’s really one thing or the other.
Frankly, I’m hard pressed to say that Sam has become such a total idiot that he doesn’t know that Cain got marked for murdering his brother and that the Mark is totally a Mark denoting fratricide, but they have dumbed Sam down a lot this year, so I’ll defer to that interpretation as well.
I still have huge issues with Dean making the unilateral decision that nothing should be done about trying to remove the Mark, considering he knows the danger to Sam, Cas and others. And I have tons of issues with the oft floated ideas that SAM will be the bad guy for trying to keep Dean from becoming a mass murderer.
Well since they didn’t show more than a few seconds in the kitchen it’s hard to know exactly what Dean is thinking. Or if he’s even able to think straight after the downlow from Cain. It’s all subjective at this point. The audio in that scene seemed to imply to me that Dean has or is changing. I’m sure he’s on high alert and will do what he needs to do to keep Sam safe while he’s able to.
Why do you think Sam isn’t aware of the MOC denoting fratricide? Sams been shown doing his research on Cain/Abel on his laptop, he’s done his due diligence, he knows. I don’t see Sam as dumbed down this year unless Charlie is in the room/general vicinity…
He’s basing that decision on the fact that Cain told him there is no cure. He wants to keep Sam from doing something that could hurt him and that he may regret. If there has to be a cure for the MOC – even though I’m hoping they can’t and it’s permanent – it has to be Sam to make the save and I don’t care what he may have to do to be sucessful. I don’t blame either of them for doing what they feel they need to do to save the other.
Dean’s already a mass murderer…even if the people he murdered “deserved it.” And Dean’s already responsible for the death of someone through not telling them what’s going on…so at least he’s being true to form if not totally redundant. I am really not buying into the whole fratricide thing now that I think about it. Cain said Dean would have to kill Crowley, Cas and then finally Sam…in that order. Well, Mark and Misha are now regulars, VERY unlikely to be killed of, so what danger could Sam possibly be in? There’s not much tension in the set up really.
But remember the finale is supposed to be very shocking or tragic or something so I could see Dean killing Sam. He may not care enough to kill the other two. Haha.
And Sam and Cas aren’t?
Well actually they are, mass murders that is. Or at least Cas is. Sam is nearly a run of the mill murderer having only killed one non-supernatural person on the show that we know of or have seen. But my post wasn’t about them…it was about Dean.
They are all covered in “oceans of blood” – if you are just counting humans, maybe Sam comes out cleaner but I really don’t think those poor meatsuits wanted to meet their end at the point of a blade… None of them are innocent babes. They are all stone cold killers when they need to be. If they weren’t all so stunningly handsome and charismatic we’d probably all be abhorred. But mmmmm sexy killers. If I was going to meet my end, I’d want Dean to be the one doing it… Just my personal opinion.
But seeing as we’re on the topic, they’re all killers. When I look to a certain aspect of one character I look to the others as well, for a more interesting conversation and debate. If you count in all the demons they’ve stabbed, instead of exorcising, theyre all murderers. If we’re going to discuss the fact DEANS a killer, we should explore the others as well. And what is a run of the mill murderer? Because personally, I don’t think that either of us know enough murderers that aren’t portrayed on T.V. to say “run of the mill”. Unless you have some extra curricular activities you might want to share… Joking. :):D
Actually thats the one thing that really bothred me about the last episoe; the way that Cas killed that demon. I as soon as he was run through I couldn’t help thinking about the person the demon was possessing and wondering about how scared he was and how much he might have been looking to Cas, an angel to save him and got a blade through the gut for his trouble. I wish that there was some consideration being paid to the poor schmoes who are still being victimized.
Oh we are looooong past that moral horizon!!! 🙂
I’m not.
Likewise, if only because it would make the worldbuilding they are (supposed to be) doing work better on a story-telling level.
Nah, they don’t have the time for a sympathetic exorcisim! These guys are busy, busy, busy! The killing doesn’t bother me quite as much as when they torture them. Like that one scene where they brutally tortured Jeffrey and then just dropped him off outside the hospital ER and took off. See ya! That was hard to watch. Or what about that time Cas forced the demon who was escaping at that time, back into the host and then killed the poor guy! Good times! I do love me a creative exorcism tho – the reverse exorcism (well, that wasn’t so much to save that poor soul as it was to stop the demon from reporting back to Crowley), or the taped exorcisim in Jus In Bello and again by Sammy against the possessed Nun… and lets not forget that oh so hot Meg interrogation/exorcisim – well hot until the exorcisim was accomplished and then we were just left with poor broken Meg. Loved Nickis Meg!!!
How would that make it work better on a story telling level? It’d get kinda old to see them exorcising demons all the time. Or hearing them talk about it… “Yeah Sam, exorcise this dude so we can hit the road…” It’s horrible but I like it because it brings the harshness of their reality (as well as the poor humans that finds themselves in the wrong place, right time) when evil touches their lives into focus. It’s a dirty job, but someone has to do it…
I felt the same in all honesty. We know how Meg felt when the demon was in her, screaming for help. how longs it been since they exorcised someone??? i want to see how it goes.
I am shocked, the show is acknowledging that S6/7 happened! I guess Eve made more than one Khan worm. Nice to see something other than the usual vampire or werewolf monsters; always wondered why we haven’t seen any Leviathans since S7. Nice to have Cole back; he’s had the second most interesting arc this season after Dean and the MoC. It sounds as though Cole has been hunting; hope this doesn’t end badly for him – would be nice to see him come back in Season 11.
“Dean’s directive to forget about looking for a cure for the MoC…”. That statement is both laughable and pathetic. Sam is a grown man and can do as he chooses with his time. And when you consider Dean will hide what Cain told him from Sam, it is in Sam’s best interests to to find a cure before he ends up as First Blade fodder. It was also kind of pathetic in that this is the view that the showrunners take on the brother’s relationship, that it isn’t a partnership, it’s a dictatorship.
njspnfan
“Dean’s directive to forget about looking for a cure for the MoC…”. That statement is both laughable and pathetic. Sam is a grown man and can do as he chooses with his time. And when you consider Dean will hide what Cain told him from Sam, it is in Sam’s best interests to to find a cure before he ends up as First Blade fodder. It was also kind of pathetic in that this is the view that the showrunners take on the brother’s relationship, that it isn’t a partnership, it’s a dictatorship.
I agree with you on this. Especially the part about how the writers and showrunner see the boys’ relationship. This is wrong on every level and needs to be fixed if this show is end up being a happy memory for the fans who’ve been there since the pilot. From what I’ve read, these are the fans who are the most unhappy with how things are now.
Amen Padaleski. Dictator Dean has spoken… there will be no looking for a cure! You know that doesn’t even make sense. Why on earth would Dean want to stop Sam for looking for a cure? There’s simply no reason for Sam NOT to look and given what Dean knows about what the blade is going to urge him to so, Sam NEEDS to look for his own sake and if the show decides to give Sam even half a brain and some credit, he should be able to figure that out on his own, honesty from Dean or no honesty from Dean. This is one of those contrived plot points that this crew of writers has been using a lot lately, and that basically drive me bat shit crazy. Lets have Dean decide for no logical reason that Sam isn’t allowed to look for a cure and then lets have the boys fight over it. It’s stupid. At least in season 3, Dean had a logical reason for wanting to prevent Sam for trying to get him out of his demon deal AND Sam knew what was going on.
It really doesn’t does it? I mean ‘don’t let your brother try to get you out of your deal or he drops dead’ (about Dean’s deal) and ‘don’t try to get out of helping me because otherwise I will send your brother back to hell’ (about Soulless Sam) and ‘Don’t try to get me out of the box because you will release Lucifer and undo the problem I solved’ and ‘stop trying to use the tablet or I will kill all your women not just this one’ are all reasonable arguments against doing the research (and all were ignored). ‘Don’t try to find a cure for me because ….. I am getting to the stage where I am going to be forced by this curse to kill you but I (apparently) don’t intend to let you know that that is going to happen’ is NOT. It really isn’t.
And the theory that Dean has a ‘terminal disease’ doesn’t work either. The one thing Dean doesn’t have is a terminal disease – that he can ‘fight and go down swinging’. ‘Going down swinging’ means killing everyone left in his life (including the killer of Sam’s women, from the above paragraph, but whatever). And then he STILL won’t be dead….and the rest of the world had better look out. All Dean can do is fight and hope that someone finds a cure before he gives into the fight. And you know since he is so insecure about how Sam feels about him, wouldn’t watching Sam doing everything he can to help Dean be better for Dean’s ability to fight against the urge to fratricide?
This whole concept does not make any sense. At all.
Yes eilf, absolutely. You know that whole “terminal disease” analogy has been bandied about a LOT lately and I don’t buy it either; it’s not the same at all, and you called it, Dean won’t be dead at the end of his illness he will have once again become the disease… the disease that is a blight on everyone around him. How is that like a terminal illness? I also do not understand Dean’s current attitude at all? It feels like quitting despite the noble spin the writers are trying to put on it. And there is no “I’ll go down swinging” for Dean; there’s no going down at all. Dean doesn’t seem to get that part of it does he.
[quote]And you know since he is so insecure about how Sam feels about him, wouldn’t watching Sam doing everything he can to help Dean be better for Dean’s ability to fight against the urge to fratricide?[/quote]
I know right? You’d think Dean would be HAPPY that Sam is so gung-ho to save him, especially after giving him such a hard time in season 8 for not looking. Dean really needs to make up his damned mind: either Sam did the right thing by not looking in season 8 or he’s doing the right thing now by risking everything to help Dean find a cure. But you’d never know it by Dean. Apparently Sam was wrong in season 8, and he’s wrong again now.
Really? Dean knows that there is no cure and even if he thought there was it obviously wouldn’t be found under the Cheerios box on the shelf in the bunkers kitchen… They’ve experienced enough to realize that if a solution can be found it isn’t going to be thru their usual means and Dean wouldn’t want Sam to risk everything especially if it will put himself in danger or hurt him in anyway. We still don’t know if Dean has told Sam about Cains prophetic hit list either. Maybe thats what that blurb was about from the next episodes synopsis. He tells Sam there’s no cure and that if he can keep from killing Crowley (the first domino) that he will be able to avoid what Cain claimed was to occur. Tells Sam to stop looking as theres no point, but Sam refuses to believe it…of course he knows Sam will ignore him and refuse to give up. Go Sammy!
There’s never meant to be any cure in Supernatural but they always find a cure.
E is right in that Dean spent much of season 8 berating Sam for not doing what he’s trying to stop him from doing here (going to great lengths). After all, Dean wasn’t going to found under a ‘Cheerios box’ so great lengths would have been required. So I think Dean needs go see this. He needs to see Sam get deeper and deeper and hopefully, darker and darker. He needs to, again,be the recipient of Sams single minded approach where he sacrifices everything, food, sleep, peace, happiness, his future, his soul etc. to reach his goal; Dean. He needs to see, once again, that Sam is willing to sacrifice everything for him. He has done it numerous times in the past but Dean was only around for one, season 3, and Dean was caught up in his own stuff then. Dean needs to see Mystery Spot Sam or I Know What You Did Last Summer Sam. Not only might it make him reassess his negative interpretation of Season 8 Sam or needs a babysitter baby brother Sam, but it would also build his ‘self-esteem’ by knowing how far Sam would go and how much he’d sacrifice for Dean. Thats what Dean did at the end of season 8, told Sam that he killed Benny ‘for’ Sam and that he was willing to let all the demons go ‘for’ Sam so it would be fitting for Sam to do the same now.
Great post MK. Abso-freakin-lutely! Dean has got to stop with this “Do as I Say, Not as I Do” line of thinking and behaving. Dean was willing to sell his soul for Sam, he was willing to let all those “sonsabitches demons” go for Sam, he was even willing to harm Sam to save him. Then he turns around and dictates that Sam is not to do the same for him and on some level believes that Sam won’t do the same for him as evidenced by his dialog in A4; “Yeah, I know you wouldn’t do the same for me.” It’s up to SAM to decide what he’s going to do for Dean and Dean simply has to live with it as Sam does. And Dean needs to see that more than anything.
[quote]They’ve experienced enough to realize that if a solution can be found it isn’t going to be thru their usual means and Dean wouldn’t want Sam to risk everything especially if it will put himself in danger or hurt him in anyway[/quote]
That’s up to Sam, not Dean.
I think that wording in the synopsis was referring back to Dean saying he was not going to keep hoping they would somehow find a cure from the previous episode. I don’t think it was Dean giving Sam some order. At least let’s wait and see before we start slamming Dean on controlling Sam. Either way apparently Sam is not being controlled since he is doing it.
As I said above, with the research Sam has already done, he should already be aware that anyone, including himself, is in danger of being first blade fodder if Dean loses control.
Prix68 – wasn’t trying to start anything, I just found it to be an interesting choice of words; a word that is rather unambiguous. A directive means an “an official or authoritative instruction”, a command, an order. I thought there were other words that could have been used there that would have worked a lot better, such as ask, beseech, implore.
I’m fully aware of what the word directive means but I would also guess that the person who writes up the synopsis is not aware of how every word they use is dissected by some fans. Except for the possession by Gadreel ( where Dean actually made the choice) I have always maintained that Sam is an adult who is perfectly capable of choosing his own path and has no need to do what Dean wants or demands unless he chooses to. That Dean FORCES Sam to do what he says just by saying something is ludicrous. That’s a choice made by Sam.
I just found it to be an odd choice of words and did not view this as dissecting but….. to each their own. The reason for bringing this up was because it harkened back to a conversation in 9.22 Stairway to Heaven, when MoC-fueled Dean said
[i]”That Blade’s the only thing that can kill Metatron, and I am the only one who can use it…so from here on out, I’m calling the shots. Capisce? Look, until I jam that Blade through that douchebag’s heart, we are not a team. This is a [b]dictatorship[/b]. Now, you don’t have to like it, but that’s how it’s gonna be. “[/i]
Still a choice made by Sam about whether to go along or not. Like I said, Sam doesn’t have to do what Dean says or wants and doesn’t always follow along. Dean ended up locked up shortly after that if I’m not mistaken so not much of a dictator. More like a tantrum thrower. But enough said by me about this. Just giving my perceptions about the use of that word.
Plus when are the synopsisssss ever what we actually end up with on the screen??? I had no problem with Dean stating it was a dictatorship. He knew what he was facing with Abaddon, he was the only one who could wield the weapon to kill her. Dean also knew Sam wasn’t going to like what Dean had in mind and he couldn’t afford to screw it up. Sam was already fighting him on the use of the FB, Dean just took the hard stance to keep Sam safe. Possibly intentionally tick him off to push Sam away because of what he knew was coming?
Sorry Metatron, not Abbadon – ah tomato, tomatoe!!! Though with Abaddon he was kinda doing the dictatorship lite in a way with Sam… And Dean did say UNTIL I jam this blade through that douchebags heart, we are not a team… Dean was trying to keep Sam away for his safety, plus Dean pretty much figured that he wasn’t going to survive the outcome. Even more reason to make sure Sam did as Dean “directed”…
It’s kind of ironic then that Sam WAS perfectly willing to go along with whatever Dean deemed was necessary and Dean failed spectacularly. So deans dictatorship line wasn’t even needs and did not help him succeed. Had he allowed Sam to help instead of “dictating” the outcome might have been more favorable to him.
Yeah Sam would be dead.
No,he would not be.
Pfffffttt. Not when we are talking Abaddon or Metatron.
Pfffffttt.Your statement is a what if so is mine in both the cases of Abaddon or metatron.You just want to reason away dean dictatorial behaviour and I have no reason to.
I’m not reasoning away Deans dictorial behavior. It is dictorial at times but it isn’t dictorial behavior just for the sake of dictorial behavior. There is reasoning behind it just as in any action anyone takes. I’m not handwaving away anything. I also know Sammys a big boy who can make up his own mind. He also has big boy knowledge of the English language and control of his mouth and if he finds Deans demands are inappropriate, unwarranted, and out of bounds, he can say so.
[quote]control of his mouth [/quote]not when he is unconscious against his will (metatron)
?
Good point anonymous! Dean’s not above forcing his choices on Sam even if it comes down to a well placed sucker punch.
System isn’t allowing me to reply to lower post – I can’t see who its from… You guys talk like Sam is this wilting flower, beat down on a regular basis, unable to express what he wants or doesn’t want. Really? Deans abusive? I’m sorry but I do condone a punch or two – that is just how they roll. Sam expresses verbally – and he knows what to say and how to say it so that it’s as effective as a punch, if not more so. Dean is physical, and that is how he expresses himself. Punch for taking his car (and leaving him at the mercy of possible Leviathans that were hunting them, while hes laid up with a broken leg…) Punch for lying, sneaking around with a demon – that one I can understand… Sam can give as good as he gets. I’m sure Sam would fight right back if he wanted to. It’s their dynamic that works for them. They are men, they are hunters. I doubt either of them would think twice about punches thrown no matter which one is doing the throwing. Do I normally condone violence? No, but in their fictional violent world I understand it.
[quote] You guys talk like Sam is this wilting flower, beat down on a regular basis, unable to express what he wants or doesn’t want.[/quote]You are telling that We talk as if Sam is a wilting flower.We do not talk like Sam is a wilting flower.This distinstion is necessary as you are fond of putting words in our mouths.[quote] Sam expresses verbally – and he knows what to say and how to say it so that it’s as effective as a punch, if not more so.[/quote]Boo hoo my brother talked bad to me so i will punch him.Dean is physically abusive you dont like take it up with the show runners.But this reasoning away well they are fictional ,well it is their dynamics yeah does not impress me a bit.[quote]and leaving him at the mercy of possible Leviathans that were hunting them, while hes laid up with a broken leg…)[/quote]no so but yeah your extrapolations are funny.[quote]Punch for lying, sneaking around with a demon – that one I can understand… [/quote]I cannot …but yeah again reasoning away Dean’s abuse is the thing which you do so no surprise there.[quote] It’s their dynamic that works for them.[/quote]If we think like this every abusive relation can be excused.but luckily we do not think like this.[quote]Do I normally condone violence? No, but in their fictional violent world I understand it.[/quote]Do you normally condone violence .Frankly do not know you to even believe your answer ..but the thingis I have seen sam and dean on screen and Dean first response is to punch Sam..supportive brother Dean is not .His support is an exception not the rule.
Sam’s words=/= Dean’s punch .You can think this.But when Dean punches Sam for Sam’s words it makes Dean a violent person to live with.Dean is horrible in the sense that he resorts to violence often in coflict it is not a one off.
Sam and Dean are brothers. This thread makes them sound like enemies. In the end they have and they would die for each other. Your comment sounds like you are placing verbal abuse on a lesser level than physical abuse, and I would like to just point out if that is the case, that’s not okay at all. Now back on point. Sams punched Dean. Deans punched Sam. Sam’s said stuff to Dean. Deans said stuff to Sam. Brothers fight. Does it come to blows? Sometimes. I remember once there was this giant fight between two brothers at my old school and it was rather violent. Case in point, theyd die for each other. Dean hasn’t to my current knowledge, beat him to the point Sam has beaten him, in the scene when Sam beat the ever loving hell out of Dean. Dean throws a few punches and is done. Over all, they’re both jerks.
Lol just because Sam said harsh words does not make it verbal abuse.If you want to consider it a verbal abuse you are free to.You have a weird way of conflating things .If sso every one who says harsh words in this world are verbally abusive.Dean abuse was apparent even in season one .If you are too blind to see that I cannot do a thing.[quote]I remember once there was this giant fight between two brothers at my old school and it was rather violent.[/quote]Does not connect to the situation in anyway whatsoever.[quote]Sam’s said stuff to Dean. Deans said stuff to Sam. [/quote]Saying stuff=/= verbal abuse.lol lol lol.If this is what is verbal abuse whole world is verbally abusive.lol lol.
So, what are you trying to make a point here? Deans abusive? What’s Sam then? Neither of them are perfect angels. Cas isnt a perfect angel. if you want to limit this to just people throwing punches, okay. so, Sams nearly strangled dean. Not just one is abusive. Their entire relationships jacked up. Its a hot mess. What is the point you were originally trying to make because, and I’m not trying to be rude, or sarcastic I dont know what it was.
[quote]Dean hasn’t to my current knowledge, beat him to the point Sam has beaten him, [/quote]
Season 6, You Can’t Handle The Truth. Dean beats Sam into unconsciousness and almost kills him.
Wasn’t that right after the episode where Sam (SS) stands by and watches Dean get turned into a vampire which led to a horrible ordeal for Dean? Then the goddess says that Sam isn’t human (or something). For all he knew it wasn’t even Sam. It wasn’t just Dean giving Sam a beatdown for kicks.
Yes Leah and the scene where Sam beats up Dean was right after Dean had called Sam a monster and repeated John’s words “if you walk out that door, don’t come back” had rejected Sam’s plea for Dean to believe in him and Sam was addicted to demon blood. I wasn’t talking reasons, both boys had their reasons. If you find Dean’s reasons more justifiable than Sam’s thats up to you. I don’t. I think both boys had their reasons. I was refuting the claim that Dean had NEVER beaten up Sam as badly as Sam had beaten up Dean because it’s simply not true and the scene in You Can’t Handle the Truth proves it.
Well theres an example of a hard decision made by Dean in order to save Sams life and get the job done. A tactical move by Dean!
Perhaps you can condone Dean’s behavior here as being for Sam’s “own good”, but I cannot. Dean’s physical abuse of Sam is reprehensible no matter what the situation, and ultimately robs Sam of his right to make his own choices, even those that might put him in harms way. This should be Sam decision and only Sam’s period. Name me one time when Sam has taken that choice away from Dean? He never has, not one time but Dean seems to do this to Sam on a regular basis, either through force or through trickery, or through guilt tripping.
Lets not forget the time Sam cuffed Dean to the radiator after Martin knocked him unconcious… The time Sam almost choked Dean to death when he tried to get Sam to leave Ruby at the Honeymoon Suite…
No one forgets. My feelings on the choke scene was and remains the same like alot in making Sam the ‘bad’ guy it was manipulative and ending on Dean . However it should not be forgotten that Dean was not exactly innocent or standing there with his arms by his side in that fight either.
Dean punched Sam then too.
So E – Martin aka “Crazy Martin” knocks Dean out cold, cuffs him to a radiator and Sam what? Went to the restroom? Left the building to get them something to eat? Ran to pick up Martins prescription for the meds he was so clearly not taking? If none of the above then Sam either did the cuffing, helped with the cuffing or supervised the cuffing. I sincerely doubt he would have left a vulnerable Dean with an unstable Martin. Also note that Sam and Martin left the room at the same time. If Sam wasn’t okay with it, he would have freed Dean.
Martin was the instigator, Martin did the punching, Martin did the cuffing.
And yes, Sam left Dean there …. it was for Dean’s own good.
[quote]Let’s not forget the time Sam cuffed Dean to the radiator after Martin knocked him unconscious…[/quote]
That wasn’t shown at all. Martin knocked Dean out and the very next shot is of Martin and Sam leaving the room together; it is completely not shown at all who cuffed Dean to the radiator. If anything it’s impled MARTIN cuffed Dean to the radiator becaues he was so keen to stop him and because he had all the gear with him. You can go ahead and blame Sam and decide that “it must have been him” all you want, but that’s not how it played out on our screens.
This is in response to Sharon – The thread is running off the page so I can’t hit the reply button correctly. In regards to you saying Dean wasn’t passively standing by in the Honeymoon Suite scene… No, he was ready for a fight but he didn’t throw the first punch…he also didn’t think Sam was going to come within a hairs breadth of choking him to death… I was just giving a few examples that I could think of off the top of my head. And yeah, for the record Sam was the bad guy there – demon blood or no demon blood. Ruby led Sam down the primrose path – he wasn’t thinking straight even though he knew what he was doing.
[quote] And yeah, for the record Sam was the bad guy there [/quote]when remove the circumstances or that Dean confined sam without support.Sam was the bad guy but so was some one else.I have learnt from my fellow fans that there should be balance in my comment other wise it will be Sam vs Dean so while i did not want to get dean into this for the sake of balance I had to get Dean into it.
Verbally he did . Sam does not react in a vaccum anymore than Dean does that fight was half a dozen of one and six of the other . The ending was to highlight how influential the DB addiction had become.
Good Lord Anonymous – I’ll tell you what seeing as this is a TV show… let’s just have all the characters sit around being all politically correct and bore each other to death. If you want to view Sams relationship with Dean as abusive and violent, knock yourself out. I guess thats another reason Sams never left because of the abuser/victim dynamic. He’s not a wallflower – he’s perfectly able to defend himself. Hes a tough hunter. Sam and Dean fight it’s how it is. If it’s Sam throwing punches Deans capable of taking care of himself, same for Sam. I refuse to sit here and weep over poor Sam getting a fist in the face now and then. Once more with feeling – they are strong men, lethal hunters… I doubt either one sits and moan about some thrown punches. Neither are innocent of things that they have done to the other – why are you so insistent over keeping this strange laundry list of everything wrong Dean has ever done to Sam? I know I don’t have any such list for Sam… honestly its tiresome. I can make it easier for you – Dean is always wrong, nothing he has ever done has been worthwhile, he lives to take away Sams free agency and keep him from ever being able to make a decision for himself. That about cover it? Sheeesh.
Do not worry people have no issues bringing up Sam crimes from being born to not being like Dean and everything inbetween . The difference with Dean is he has made such life changing decisions for Sam with Sam not having much of a say, and last season was the ultimate taking matters in to my own hands and making a decision that resulted in the nastiness that was last season and Sam being made wrong for his reaction .
Anonymous your post above was so long it is coming thru as a single vertical line of running type which is nearly impossible to read. It also wont let me hit the reply button… I think I got the gist of your comments but I cant be sure…
Anonymous – to your above Boo Hoo comment. Your logic presented through your comment would lead me to believe then that verbal abuse is okay but physical abuse isn’t? So Sam gets a pass then? Abuse is abuse.
Harsh words by Sam are not verbal abuse.But Dean’s continual need to punch Sam is abuse.
I kind of agree with you njspnfan.Dean thinks he is dictator.The same mistake which John did. if Dean gives directives it reflects poorly on him not on Sam.
this conversation kind of segued from my initial point about the choice of words being a reflection on the showrunner’s view of the brother’s relationship. There was no intention of trashing either of the brothers. Yes, Dean has acted rather dictatorial in the past, the most egregious example when he went off the deep end at the end of Season 9. And Sam is free to listen, or not to listen, to a directive, if that’s what this was. After all, Sam does have free will…. well, most of the time, when he isn’t possessed by a demon (Meg), Lucifer, the wicked witch from Oz, or an angel (Gadreel) :D:D:D
agree
Dean gives directives, it’s what he as the leader has to do. Sometime Sam and Dean converse over what to do during the hunt but most times it is Dean taking the lead. Small example – indicating to Sam which way to go when they are searching a building for a monster… Nine times out of ten Dean goes in first. He’s combat/battlesmart. Sam more often than not follows Deans lead. Dean is the tactician… Sam, research. They play to their strengths.
that is completely irrelevant to the point made; and besides, they are not on a hunt, where Dean usually takes the lead role.
Yes, hence the tactician… Its not irrelevant. Everyone is having a problem with Dean issuing a directive. In battle is that not what a general has to do? In implementing the battle plans – is that not giving directives as to the specifics of said plan before said plan is put into affect? Dean gives directives, orders – its what he has to do as the leader.
It is completely irrelevant to the initial comment I made. You have made complaints about other people taking your comments out of context, and I request you extend the same courtesy to others. – I will copy and paste it here for you to review –
[i]
“Dean’s directive to forget about looking for a cure for the MoC…”. That statement is both laughable and pathetic. Sam is a grown man and can do as he chooses with his time. And when you consider Dean will hide what Cain told him from Sam, it is in Sam’s best interests to to find a cure before he ends up as First Blade fodder.[b] It was also kind of pathetic in that this is the view that the showrunners take on the brother’s relationship, that it isn’t a partnership, it’s a dictatorship[/b].[/i]
I wasnt specifically responding to your comment in toto more in line with the general thread of How dare Dean issue a directive to Sam! Im sorry, I thought that was obvious. My bad. Feel free anytime you want to take my comments out of context. I promise you, I don’t complain about it.
Only in this relationship they are hunting PARTNERS not General and subordinate. Or at least they were, for years, partners who discussed the best way to handle a situation and then agreed on what that might be and working as a team for a common goal, before Dean became a dictator, which ultimately got him killed and made him a demon, so his dictatorship isn’t working out all that well it seems.
Unfortunately in Metatrons case Dean felt the necessity to be the dictator but he did say until Metatron was dead so as I said previously, Dean recognized that Sam would not want that nor did he. It was Deans fight. He was the only one strong enough because of the MOC/FB to take Metatron on. He was worried about Abaddon using or killing Sam and getting away, he wasn’t going to take the same chance with the self appointed new God. He also had no intention of returning from that fight, I’m sure he would have rather Sam not witnessed it or what he may have become. He knew Sam would never agree so he went for the most expediant solution. Another example of Dean thinking on his feet and doing what had to be done. He could never have known that after his death he was going to turn into a demon so you’re pointing that out as a failure to his temporary dictatorship is just silly.
[quote]Unfortunately in Metatrons case Dean felt the necessity to be the dictator but he did say until Metatron was dead so as I said previously, Dean recognized that Sam would not want that nor did he.[/quote]
No, Sam showed every indication that he was ready to fight WITH Dean. Here’s the dialog at the trailer park right before they head off to confront mutation shows a clear willingness by Sam to do whatever Dean wanted even if that meant Dean getting killed. Sam just wanted to be there an to help, no matter what.
[quote]DEAN: I’m gonna take my shot, for better or worse.
SAM: I know.
DEAN: No matter the consequences.
SAM: I know. But if this is it, we’re gonna do it together.
[/quote]He was the only one strong enough because of the MOC/FB to take Metatron on. He was worried about Abaddon using or killing Sam and getting away, he wasn’t going to take the same chance with the self appointed new God. He also had no intention of returning from that fight, I’m sure he would have rather Sam not witnessed it or what he may have become. He knew Sam would never agree so he went for the most expediant solution.[/quote]
First off, Sam DID agree; see dialog from episode above. Secondly Dean wasn’t strong enough, he failed, he did not kill Metatron. Thirdly, how was Dean going to keep Sam from “seeing it” one way or another? Sam saw it anyway, even with Dean’s sucker punch, but he was too late to be of any help because he spent the first crucial minutes of the fight where he might have done some good, unconscious. But had Dean not been a dictator in that moment, making life decisions FOR Sam instead of letting Sam decide for himself, maybe he would have succeeded in killing Metatron (I think he would have) and maybe even survived to NOT become a demon. It was the brothers working together that saved the world from Lucifer and Michael in season 5. That was the big lesson of that whole five year arc; that the brothers are more powerful than God and all the angels when they work together as a team. Dean forgot that lesson in this instance. It was Dean’s insistence that he work alone, take Sam out of the action by force that assured his complete failure in his bid to kill Metatron. It wasn’t a good tactical move at all, it was foolish, poorly planned and it got Dean killed and turned into a demon.
it was a good tactical decision because it kept Sam out of the scene.Sam gets less screen time less dialogue.So it is a good tactical decison.
I know Sam was willing to fight with Dean. Dean didn’t want Sam there for all the reasons I previously mentioned. If Dean with the MOC/FB wasn’t strong enough (and failed as you like to point out) then what do you think Sam was going to do besides die right alongside Dean? Dean knew what he was up against even with the MOC/FB, he didn’t want to needlessly expose Sam to that. If that is what you want to point out is Dean taking Sams agency from him I say good on him. Dean loves Sam, why wouldnt he want to keep him from becoming a notch on Metatrons belt? Dean didn’t forget that lesson, he made his decision to keep Sam safe, still stall for TFW and go down fighting. I doubt he thought he’d take out Metatron, all they had to do was destroy the tablet and depower him – Dean didn’t think he’d be around for that. Cas and the other angels could handle him from there.
Even so, 9 times out of 10 Dean always took the lead. Dean calls the shots – good, bad or indifferent that’s just how its always been set up. Sam lets him because he trusts in Deans hunting abilities. For the most part it works for them.
Dean is bossy.He tells sam to do what he wants Sam to do.That is not being a leader .Leader leads,dictator dictates. Sam is a tactician too and a brilliant one at that.
So Dean is bossy? Sams strengths are in both but Dean excels when it comes to being a tactician as well as a leader on and off the field. Sam, Cas, Bobby, even Crowley look to Dean to lead. It’s not a poor reflection on Sam. There has to be a general/leader and more often than not that falls on Dean. Not saying he always makes the best decisions but… 🙂
[quote]So Dean is bossy?[/quote]Yes.[quote]Sams strengths are in both[/quote]Not one character has exceled like Sam like Sam did while helping Anna get her grace back that was absolutely brilliant and to date that was the most brilliant piece of planning.Personally for me Dean takes lead in combat situations (field leader) but in the planning it is sometimes Dean and other times Sam.[quote] It’s not a poor reflection on Sam.[/quote]I know whatever you say does not poorly reflect on Sam it is just that I did not agree with what you said.
I meant So Dean is bossy? As in, so what. Thats always been part of his personality for better or for worse..
Dean also has had his times of brilliant planning. I’m not negating eithers contributions but as a tactician Dean has always been the stronger of the two. Even Sam has said he’s the best hunter, better than Sam or their Dad and that he’s a genius at lore. Like I said they each have their own strengths. Sam for the most part has always followed Deans lead because he trusts that his brother knows what he is doing. Sam loves research, Dean loves hands on hunting. Dean does have a natural darkness and dare I say likes killing – hunting and the strategy involved scratches that itch.
best hunter=/= better tactician or better leader.Conflation does not work.[quote] Dean loves hands on hunting.[/quote]that does not mean he is a good tactician.[quote]I meant So Dean is bossy? As in, so what. Thats always been part of his personality for better or for worse..[/quote]I will call him out on it.I donot like bossy people.
You mean Dean can’t be involved in the hands on of an activity (hunting) and therefore a great tactician at the same time??? How so? The planning comes first, the hands on is the hunt itself (with adjustments to the original plan when required).
You realize you are calling out the trait that annoys you of a fictional character.
[quote]You mean Dean can’t be involved in the hands on of an activity (hunting) and therefore a great tactician at the same time???[/quote]No , you said sam told Dean he was the best hunter and used it as proof for Dean being tactician.which I do not agree with Sam saying is best hunter == Sam saying he is the best/better tactician.[quote]You realize you are calling out the trait that annoys you of a fictional character.[/quote]*Gasp*. Next you will be telling me Santa, easter bunny are fictional.It is like I just realized we were discussing the actions of fictional character.Thank you for illuminating me with this ‘pearl of wisdom’ lol.
No I didnt use what Sam said as proof of anything. I was merely pointing out Sams own POV in regards to Deans hunting prowess … Theres some of that missing POV I always read about. As far as Deans tactician status that has been shown repeatedly by Show. And no, I’m not going to list examples.
[quote]Theres some of that missing POV I always read about[/quote]what missing POV?well if you talking about Sam’s POV this one dialogue is not enough Sam POV.I have said it before two snippets are simply not enough POV.If it is for you good.For me it is not. [quote] As far as Deans tactician status that has been shown repeatedly by Show. And no, I’m not going to list examples.[/quote]then i do not agree with you.
Well since you are aware that you are correcting a fictional character then I guess I won’t have to worry about you addressing the Easter Bunny. Good to know. 🙂 Though I would dare say if Dean Winchester were an actual person, I doubt you would be sauntering up to him to make that correction either. Especially since you are so concerned about his being quick to violence…
[quote]Though I would dare say if Dean Winchester were an actual person, I doubt you would be sauntering up to him to make that correction either. Especially since you are so concerned about his being quick to violence…[/quote]I do not need to saunter to him to make that correction.In “real life” I dont need to saunter up to rabid dogs to correct them there are professionals for that a complaint is enough.:)[quote]Well since you are aware that you are correcting a fictional character then I guess I won’t have to worry about you addressing the Easter Bunny. Good to know. 🙂 [/quote]If the show is about easter bunny then will.But tell oh wise one what are you doing in this website .Majority the articles in this website are pertaining to fictional characters.Again Alycat you are putting words in mouth Criticizing characters=/= correcting characters.Do you have some problem understanding words or is it a pattern of willfully misconstruing my words.
I agree. For me, the dynamic between an older brother and younger brother sometimes plays like that. I think Sam defers to Dean because of the respect he has for his brother. Sam is an intelligent and strong willed person. He will speak up when he feels Dean has crossed a line or he disagrees. He always has. He is simply not downtrodden. Dean IS bossy as hell. He had to be when they were young. I have also seen countless instances when he has been collaborative with Sam. To me being dictatorial has a much more sinister connotation. Fidel Castro, Idi Amin, and Hitler were not “bossy”. I think it is unfair and a disservice to Dean’s character to call him a dictator. In spite of making some very poor decisions, Dean is a good man at his core who has tried to do the right thing more often than not IMO.
Wow. Well said Leah.
Thank you Leah!
Also Dean wouldn’t want to be under a dictatorship anymore than he thinks Sam would. When it came time to kill Metatron Dean did say that it was no longer a partnership but a dictatorship but he also said UNTIL he shoved the FB into that douche. Dean was putting the hammer down and calling the shots at that time because he knew Sam would either be killed or used as leverage against him and he couldn’t take that chance. He also knew he was the only one that could kill Metatron and that it was up to him at that point. (Sadly he never planned on returning from that confrontion either, but thats another story). I kinda think too Dean wasn’t sure what he might become when he gave into the “combo pack” – the MOC/FB and I’m sure he didn’t want Sam to have to witness that possibility…
Fidel castro,Idi Amin and hitler are extremes in dictators. (they were bossy but they were not just bossy they had additional characters which made them extremes power hungry, superiority etc ).If you think we are comparing Dean to them more power to you.he tries to be a dictator with his cute directives but as you say Sam is an adult.But then again it does not negate Dean’s actions.
Metatron situation is one such instance where Dean used force to have Sam do what he wanted i.e stay put.
Yes, it is truly horrible that Dean would want to keep Sam out of harms way like that. Much better that he had let Sam come along only to die at the hands of Metatron. Why didn’t they write it this way!
I don’t see where Dean ever expects his actions to be negated. Hes willing to assume the guilt and responsibility. He simply does what needs to be done, consequences be damned especially if it involves keeping Sam alive and kicking. Leaders have to make the tough calls.
[quote] Much better that he had let Sam come along only to die at the hands of Metatron. Why didn’t they write it this way! [/quote]Head canon.[quote] Hes willing to assume the guilt and responsibility[/quote]He does not .[quote] Leaders have to make the tough calls.[/quote]which he definitely is not.
No I dont have a problem understanding words or having a pattern of having misconstrued yours. I also am not the one critisizing or correcting characters. That’s your thing. I have simply tried to respond to questions and clarify where I see the characters motivation, contrary to what it seems you think, I am not sitting here wringing my hands over what one character has or hasn’t done to the other. Psychiatrists, psychologists… say the same. Abuse is abuse. Read the studies, do your research, know your subject because I do and I have personal knowledge of individuals that have been and are in these situations.
[quote] I also am not the one critisizing or correcting characters.[/quote]No I am critisizing characters.You are saying I am correcting characters.So yea either you have problem understanding words or you are purposefully saying this.[quote]Read the studies, do your research, know your subject because I do and I have personal knowledge of individuals that have been and are in these situations.[/quote]You were the one who made the claim so it falls on you to proove that what sam did was verbal abuse in the case you mentioned.Just because you say pyschologists/psychiatrista I am simply not goin to believe you .Me doing research to prove your claim? that is not how it works.Make a claim..prove it.
Drunk Sam thinks Dean is bossy…. and short.:)
and “Stupid”!!!!! 🙂
This is in response to Anonymous above post. Either believe me or not. I’m not going to drag the details of others misfortune with abuse – physical, verbal, psychological… to help make a point. Do research, don’t do research, stay woefully misinformed and ill educated on the subject or don’t – whatever makes you happy. Suffice it to say on this we will always disagree. This is not the forum to debate such a topic.
[quote] I’m not going to drag the details of others misfortune with abuse – physical, verbal, psychological… to help make a point.[/quote]You were the one who talked about specialists.take your own advice.[quote]Do research, don’t do research, stay woefully misinformed and ill educated on the subject or don’t – whatever makes you happy. [/quote]Nice spin given here.You were the one who made the claim .Prove it.All tese options you have given they mean sh!t ,because you have not given any reason to believe your statement.It makes me happy to tell you that just your statement is not enough to make it true.[quote] This is not the forum to debate such a topic.[/quote]Then the next you comment do not bring this topic into debate i.e psychologists etc.Do not try to pass it on to me it was you who started this .
Sorry but your post makes little to no sense so I don’t even know how to respond.
That is okay.
Your posts to me seem to be getting progressively aggressive. It’s conversation, not a game of oneupmanship. If my style aggravates you so maybe you shouldn’t respond to me. I don’t owe you an explanation or proof as you say. Insinuating that simeone is lying just because you don’t like or agree with something that is said is not cool. No one is trying to get one over on you or whatever it was you said thru your post to DJMars. I find Supernatural and commenting on these threads fun and interesting, it is not however my lifes work, nor do I take it that seriously. Just thought you should know.
[quote]Your posts to me seem to be getting progressively aggressive.[/quote]It is just that i do not have to believe any statement you make without proof.When we talk about the show we have all the episodes to go by but when you say things like “Experts say..” without anyback up i am in no obligation to believe in it.I do not need to believe in your statements just because you said it and I am talking about things which you present as facts which are outside the show.You dont owe me proof if you do nit want your point to be proven true.I will ask for proof because I would definitely like to check the validity of the statement .If you do not want to it is okay.I will just categorize that point in the BS folder and move on.[quote] Insinuating that simeone is lying just because you don’t like or agree with something that is said is not cool.[/quote]Believing in something just because someone said that “experts said so” is not how I am.
Whatever. Since we seem to not only have such a clear “communication problem” and that it is obvious that you think the increasingly aggressive manner in which you post is ok, I’m done. Someone else can deal with it. Know though it isn’t just over your disbelief regarding verbal vs physical abuse.
For the record, I’m sure if someone had made the same comment regarding Sam, you wouldn’t be asking for “proof”
[quote] Someone else can deal with it. [/quote]lol[quote] Know though it isn’t just over your disbelief regarding verbal vs physical abuse. [/quote]OK.[quote]For the record, I’m sure if someone had made the same comment regarding Sam, you wouldn’t be asking for “proof”[/quote]I expect nothing more from you.You be sure and let other people deal with the mess you have left.
Once again I find your response below makes little sense and I don’t know how to comment, so I won’t.
🙂
Anonymous – Sorry but I know quite a few professionals that would disagree. Abuse is abuse. Verbal or otherwise.
Sharon system wont let me link to your comment above but kinda ties into my response to Anon – so Dean was the first to “attack” verbally in the Honeymoon Suite – which I respectfully disagree with – and that gives the green light to Sam nearly choking his bro to death? That convo Dean had with Sam was him trying to reason and get through so that he would see what Ruby and the demon blood addiction were doing to him. He was trying to save him from that path knowing Ruby=evil and Sam=too blind to see+ too addicted to make logical sense. Dean was standing there with tears in his eyes when Sam punched him. Dean was ready to fight – when isn’t he -but that wasn’t what he wanted to happen. He didn’t go there with the intent to do anything but ‘murder the bitch!’ and get Sam back.
You know there are countless examples over 10 years of these two having major conflicts with each other. Verbally and physically. The show set it up that way to try and create tension between them and hopefully entertainment for the fans. As the J’s have said on more than one occasion SPN would be pretty boring if the brothers always got along and never made end of the world mistakes. This formula has been going on for 8 or 9 seasons now. The lying and keeping secrets started in S1. From the description in this promo that looks like it is going to continue. The set up for this season started at the beginning of last season. Dean was going to make decisions that were going to have catastrophic consequences. It is the way it was written. And now we are going to see what Sam is going to do about it. Hopefully it will be a well thought out story line that will entertain us all.
And THAT is exactly how I like it. No crying about who does what physical/verbal/emotional abuse to each other. No pointing out the horrible PC incorrect things the Winchesters do… Who cares!!! It’s Supernatural and the Winchesters world and I love every minute! You know, except for most of the Charlie time…
It is not as simple as that and it would be unrealistic to expect them to be ok with each other all the time and the actions they may or may not do. However last season took it to another level and in a way I was certainly uncomfortable with .
Now having said that I do not doubt to soften the edges of what Dean did last season they will have Sam go out and do something that goes against his ethos to save Dean and he will also cross lines .
Sharon Im not the one that has the problem with these characterizations. I think you have me confused with other posters?
I am not really sure what you mean I am well aware you do not have a problem . I do not think my reply implied that it is more about where I stand.
My mistake! I apologize. No ill intent meant. Thanks for all your comments!!! 🙂
Well I won’t agree with you about Charlie but this is a story about two brothers. It has taken us to some pretty awful places and some pretty wonderful places. If the episode title for 10.23 is any indication it is going to get awfuller before it gets betterer.
This is a change of pace but kind of timely…from SweetonDean http://sweetondean.blogspot.fi/ and…..
http://sweetondean.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/bromantic-moments-top-ten-things.html you know they really do love each other.
[quote]Sorry but I know quite a few professionals that would disagree. [/quote]”professionals”.What Sam said were harsh words what Dean does is a pattern of physical violence.Just because you wrote the words “professional” does not make your sentence true.[quote]but that wasn’t what he wanted to happen.[/quote]His words suggested anything but.His words suggested in no way that he wanted.Bobby even tried to tell to Dean what was important but in true Dean winchester fashion he just could not listen to Bobby.[quote]He didn’t go there with the intent to do anything but ‘murder the bitch!’ and get Sam back.[/quote]Dean’s words did not match his “intent”
No, alycat22 wrote the word professionals because they do agree, their agreement makes it true. verbal abuse is abuse. physical abuse is abuse. it has abuse in the name. Now, I’m going to find my chill here. This is a TV show. Abuse is a serious matter. On track, they have spats. Sams said some nasty stuff to Dean, beaten him bloody (so has dean. both were souless or on the influence of demon blood). dean has never tried to strangle him. dean has thrown punches, Cas has beaten dean when he was going to michael. . I’m going to say it one more time. Its a TV show. Do not use abuse to make one character seem better or worse. Heres the thing, they’re brothers, theyd die for eachother, they love each other.
wait mSo Alycat22 has asked proffesionals about fictional characters? But isn’t he/she against correcting fictional characters.You know this how?what I am telling is if you just say well professionals say and then in another comment say correcting fictional characters and some bullshit (which I was not even doing) you are setting yourself up for a contradiction.Now say I decide to humor you guys abd even consider your points about professionals how do I know you have asked professionals?e are writing on internet and you seriously think I will just agree with you because you said professional.Well I do not just believe anythig like that.You try that scheme with other people.[quote] Its a TV show. Do not use abuse to make one character seem better or worse. [/quote]What does this…it does not even make sense .Its a TV show .so what I will reply to this point but what are you tring to say.
I comment depending on what the show has shown me ,If you have any problem with the show ask kripke ,gamble or carver.As of now I have not been a part of the creative team.just a consumer.
Definitely your interpretation. Deans words did match his actions. It was Sam who threw the punch. Which I thought you had said in a post earlier that there was never one incident that could be cited where Sam did that. And going by what you said – no, Deans words aren’t an acceptable reason for him throwing it. Same as Sams words in the episode with Gordon were not acceptable for Dean. Or was it okay because as you said Dean has shown a pattern of abusive behavior to Sam, so it doesn’t count. Or because he was under the influence of demon blood. Or…
[quote]Deans words did match his actions.[/quote]Definitely your interpretation.[quote]It was Sam who threw the punch.[/quote]It was Sam who threw one of the punches.[quote]Which I thought you had said in a post earlier that there was never one incident that could be cited where Sam did that.[/quote]Not me.[quote]And going by what you said – no, Deans words aren’t an acceptable reason for him throwing it. Same as Sams words in the episode with Gordon were not acceptable for Dean.[/quote]One was a fight where Sam threw the first punch.The other was not where Dean threw the only punch.[quote] Or was it okay because as you said Dean has shown a pattern of abusive behavior to Sam, so it doesn’t count. Or because he was under the influence of demon blood. Or…[/quote]Keep on guessing .I have given my reasons.All these reasons are what you think that I think.
Definitely your interpretation. Deans words did match his actions. It was Sam who threw the punch. Which I thought you had said in a post earlier that there was never one incident that could be cited where Sam did that. And going by what you said – no, Deans words aren’t an acceptable reason for him throwing it. Same as Sams words in the episode with Gordon were not acceptable for Dean. Or was it okay because as you said Dean has shown a pattern of abusive behavior to Sam, so it doesn’t count. Or because he was under the influence of demon blood. Or…
Definitely your interpretation. Deans words did match his actions. It was Sam who threw the punch. Which I thought you had said in a post earlier that there was never one incident that could be cited where Sam did that. And going by what you said – no, Deans words aren’t an acceptable reason for him throwing it. Same as Sams words in the episode with Gordon were not acceptable for Dean. Or was it okay because as you said Dean has shown a pattern of abusive behavior to Sam, so it doesn’t count. Or because he was under the influence of demon blood. Or…
[quote]So, what are you trying to make a point here? [b]Deans abusive? What’s Sam then?[/b] Neither of them are perfect angels. Cas isnt a perfect angel. if you want to limit this to just people throwing punches, okay. so, Sams nearly strangled dean. Not just one is abusive. Their entire relationships jacked up. Its a hot mess. What is the point you were originally trying to make because, and I’m not trying to be rude, or sarcastic I dont know what it was.[/quote]When did I say Sam is a perfect angel.Where did Cas come from?If you want to talk about cas I have no problem .Dean is abusive,When Sam strangled Dean they were in a fight .When Dean punches Sam …Sam told he was trying to replace John by Gordan.This was in the second season of the show.Context matters.Circumstances matter,
I have bolded the part because I do not know in what sense you are asking this.Dean=abusive then Sam=? or Dean=abusive so Sam =abusive.If the first case Sam is the recipient of Dean’s abuse.In the second case I do not have this need to label both of them with the same labels if they do not warrent it.
My point was made that professionals would say that verbal and physical abuse are on the same level. i have never asked a psychiatrist about a fictional show, it would be a waste of their time and, honestly, my own. I was pointing out that abuse is a serious matter, this is a tv show (not so serious of a matter). I wasnt trying a ‘scheme’. why would i waste time on creating a ‘scheme’ to make people agree with me online. Please, if you dont agree, don’t ‘humor’ me. Its condescending.
I view all of the character the same. Dean has thrown punches, yes. Sam has also punched Dean. the point is irrelevant. theyve both done the action, so that makes them both guilty.
I am not putting words in your mouth. I never said you made that comment. I’m sorry if you view me making a point as me putting words in your mouth, i will refrain from attempting to get one over on you again, drat! you have caught me :D.
We’re gonna have to agree to disagree, you arent swaying me, and you obviously arent changing your mind, so this debate has hit a wall.
[quote] so that makes them both guilty. [/quote]For me it does not as the situations were different.[quote]don’t ‘humor’ me[/quote]I was not being condescending.[quote]I view all of the character the same.[/quote]I do not.[quote]i will refrain from attempting to get one over on you again, drat! you have caught me :D. [/quote]what can I say?you made it very easy.:D
I truly don’t see how you read that conversation as anything but Dean reaching out to Sam in desperation and love, but okay… On this we will just have to agree to definitely disagree.
Oh definitely this whole exchange has been agree to disagree.[quote]I truly don’t see how you read that conversation as anything but Dean reaching out to Sam in desperation and love,[/quote]A big disagree
Definitely your interpretation. Deans words did match his actions. It was Sam who threw the punch. Which I thought you had said in a post earlier that there was never one incident that could be cited where Sam did that. And going by what you said – no, Deans words aren’t an acceptable reason for him throwing it. Same as Sams words in the episode with Gordon were not acceptable for Dean. Or was it okay because as you said Dean has shown a pattern of abusive behavior to Sam, so it doesn’t count. Or because he was under the influence of demon blood. Or…
Yup!
Sounds like the wheels are turning for the rest of the season. Dean is dealing it in his own way and Sam in his own and he is continuing to find a cure.
[quote]No. No, [b]I’m[/b] not just gonna give up. I appreciate the effort, okay? I do. But the answer is not out there. It’s with me. I need to be the one calling the shots here, okay? [b]I[/b] can’t keep waking up every morning with this false hope. [b]I[/b] got to know where I stand. Otherwise, [b]I’m[/b] gonna lose my freakin’ mind. So [b]I’m[/b] gonna fight it til [b]I[/b] can’t fight it anymore. And when all is said and done…[b] I’ll[/b] go down swinging.[/quote]
Sounds like Dean is saying what he is going to do himself about the MoC. The directive he himself will take. There is no we on the quote nor order. And he hasn’t ordered Sam to do anything in this season either.
I am exited about the episode and only thing I am worried about that Cole gets the curtains in this episode. I actually would like to him to stick around.
The choice of words is a choice of words. I actually don’t take that heed on these. I rather will watch the episode than trust these descriptions. 🙂
– Lilah
Immediate emergency PRAYER CIRCLE for Cole!!!!!!!!! Oh Chuck, we beseech thee…
Prix – agreed! But let’s look at it anotethe other way for a minute just for s**** & grins. Dean leads – it could well have been an order. So what? Sams a big boy, he doesn’t always listen to Dean. Dean is usually the one everyone looks to to make the calls on what they should do. Kinda like a general leading troops? He’s going to want to keep Sam from doing something crazy since they haven’t found any cure through their normal means. Dean knows as time goes by that Sam is going to get more and more desperate and a desperate Winchester as we know rarely equals happy, happy sunshine and rainbows. So now everyone expects that Deans personality when it comes to looking after Sammy is just going to make a 180°? What show have you been watching? 🙂 As to Dean telling Sam? Maybe he does, maybe not. I’m thinking he will tell Cas and leave it up to him to help Sam if/when he starts to derail. As to not looking anymore? He’s pretty beat down emotionally, mentally, physically. He was just told by Cain who bore the MOC for centuries that there is no cure. As far as Dean knows maybe that was Satans directive. Maybe that was part and parcel of the owners manual that only Satan and Cain were privy too. I don’t know. The guys not St. Dean! We’ll have to see why he decides not to let Sam in on the big secret, I’m sure he has his reasoning. Heres some possibly lame speculation – he doesn’t tell him because his evil side wants to keep him unaware? If he were to tell him he was to kill Crowley off first to start the chain of events, then Sam would stop him, thus foiling his wicked plans. Mmmmmm Wicked Dean. I like the sound of that!!!
Maybe Dean will tell Sam what Cain said. Dean really hasn’t had the opportunity to discuss what happened with Sam yet. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.
Maybe Dean tells Sam and THATS what sends Sam into the desperation mode looking for the cure… “Oh HELLS NO! I don’t wanna die!!! Nuh uh!!!” Now that I typed that, it kinda makes sense… Hmmmmm….
I am more concerned about more canon trashing in this episode than I am about the word “directive.” Everybody has known for months now that the brothers were going to have differing paths as far as the MoC was concerned. Dean believes Cain that there is no getting rid of it and thinks it is on him to control it, Sam has been cheerleading that thought, Dean wants to get back to doing as much good as he can before he has Cas throw him into the sun, and Sam wants to help Dean in every way he can — having failed twice in trying to save Dean. No surprises there.
However, every single time these writers try to give a nod to an earlier episode, in whatever capacity or whatever their intention is, they have managed to diminish the previous history of the show and made a joke of what the two Winchesters have gone through. They have diminished (wiped out, actually) Dean’s sacrifice of his life and soul for his brother and 40 years of Hell. They have wiped out the trips to the past where John was perfectly fine and diminished both Dean and John’s histories and the relationship Dean had with John since the first season. They have trashed reaper lore, witch lore, ghost lore, angel lore, hunting as an honorable thing to do, and the entire Winchesters’ back stories.
From this synopsis, I am afraid that is going to happen again, if for no other reason than hen the Khan worm was in Bobby telling the brothers Eve’s plan, it claims to be nameless, having just been created by Eve. That would make it the alpha and the only member of its species. The brothers killed it, and how there is another one running around. Not a good start to an episode I have been looking forward to. Fingers crossed that this isn’t going to be what I fear.
It sounds like Cole is either going to be dead meat or an instal-hunter. I have no idea which it will be, but I know they killed off Rufus in “And Then There Were None,” because they needed a significant death (and I’m still mad about that), so maybe the writer thinks that killing Cole will be a significant death in this one.
I’m wondering where the little suckers been hiding out all these years! I won’t be surprised if they write that a Khan Lite survived. Eve was creating and experimenting with so many different monsters that I could see them tweaking/borrowing from that storyline. The monster creation was so fluid, who’s to say what’s canon. Don’t necessarily agree but I think they might be able to get away with it without trashing the episode from the past. And who doesn’t like a little shrimp on the barbie? Like I said before, I’m just thrilled to death that it isn’t a Vampire, Werewolf or Charlie. Or Charlie. At least it’s something we haven’t seen for a long time!!!
Fingers crossed for Cole. I want him to stay on as a rookie hunter. Hell he is believeable… military background, well trained in “everything” (especially getting his ass handed to him by DDean/Dean!), tough, smart… everything Charlie isn’t. His character is more organic, you can accept that this would be the natural next step for him now that he knows what’s out there. The only thing that nags at me is that he was cast to play a 20+ year old? Now Travis is a good looking guy and in great shape and I don’t think he looks his actual age at all but 20+? That would be like casting Norman Reedus.. Both sexy, great looking guys but that would be stretching it. Plus what if they had decided on him as a spinoff? 5 years later… “Yeah uh, sorry Travis but were gonna have to let you go… but I hear The Walking Dead is casting…” Don’t get me wrong, I love Cole and Travis does a great job portraying him, but everytime I look at him my brain is saying – “he ain’t no 20+ year old! Somebody is cheatin on their birthdate!” Sometimes it stinks to have this inside info we do, rather than just blissfully watching the show in ignorance of fandom, episode analysis, as well as the nuances in each and every scene. It’s exhausting! Am I right?!? 😉
Hi Guys – I think some of us have forgotten what SPN is all about Family, Brothers they will do anything for each other. And I do feel Sam has a lesser role in this season but remember S1-S9 the story revolved around Sam, and Dean was the big brother trying to save him The boys are 10yrs older now been through sooooooooooo much learnt so much it has worn on them differently Sam was the character more presented as a Man of Letters, more a thinker than a hunter, chronicling, reading finding answers – Dean his most trusted hunter – Sam may have to go dark to find a answer for Dean & he wont be telling Dean about this. I personally feel Sam is more balanced to handle a dark side then Dean Remember Dean beleives that his worthless has no future and really hates himself with a 90% softness beneath Sam has to save him he is sooooooooooo much strong. But Sam will do it quietly resourcefully The writers of SPN are brillant remember they know where their taking us. Sadly we have to be patient
I LOVE this show I won’t it to go on for many yrs in some way either in this format or through a GOOD spin off
As for the con worm great I hope they can play this creature out over some other eps. Glad to see Cole back – maybe his back for another reason as well ?????
I have another ??????? Now Dean is the only carrier of th Mark (No Cain ) does this mean his even more cursed carrying the burden alone ????
I read this Q & A from
Risti Rambles
Jared & Jensen M&G Report – #PHXCON
Once that happens and once we see the fallout to the ending of this storyline, Jensen doesn’t know where it’s going to go. He trusts the writers that have taken them this far that they’ll come up with some massive cliffhanger at the end of this season that will stun us all, and how they’re probably going to kill off someone that we all love, “which sucks, because listen there are other characters that we could care less about why don’t you kill them off.”
He did assure us that this is just him speculating, and that we shouldn’t treat this as a spoiler. Then they’ll figure out a way to get us out of the gutter for season eleven. He doesn’t know whether it’ll be a Sam centric or a Dean centric season, but he is pretty sure that The Mark storyline will be over by next season. ?????????????????????????
[quote]I think some of us have forgotten what SPN is all about Family,[/quote]This is sad.Hope you remember soon.;):p[quote]remember S1-S9 the story revolved around Sam, and Dean was the big brother trying to save him[/quote]Dean did not have lesser screen time,often abrupt screen exits,being quietly resourceful.His reactions to situations were given first .Sam’s were 20 mins of some episode at the end of the season.Maybe you have to be reminded that there are tw main characters not one.[quote]But Sam will do it quietly resourcefully[/quote]show it on screen however quiet it is.no screen exits for Sam..or head injuries for that matter[quote]The writers of SPN are brillant[/quote]I do not think so.
Hi E, yes Dean has beaten Sam badly. Sam has beaten Dean badly. They both have done regrettable things. Since one of the general themes these last few days seems to be how abusive and tyrannical Dean is I was only just pointing out this was not a spontaneous burst of anger as are maybe some of his swings at Sam which I don’t condone. I don’t condone physical violence at all. As to your specific point I wasn’t disagreeing. They, as characters, don’t seem to hold grudges about those incidents. Sometimes the words spoken (or unspoken) seem to cut deeper.
You know my two cents is that these two brothers have shown more love and compassion for each other than animosity. There are countless examples of the caring relationship that exists (the ones that attracted me to the show and keeps me watching) than there are the few times that there has been confrontation. SweetonDean has two articles on her blog pointing out 10 examples of how each brother has shown in big and small ways how much they love each other. I get it that this is a hot button topic but Sam/Jared and Dean/Jensen would really do anything for each other “push shove”.
I couldn’t agree more Cheryl. I wish we could talk about that once in awhile.:)