I Won’t Go Down With This ‘Ship
As I use it in this article, “shipping” is the promotion of a romantic relationship between two people, particularly when that relationship includes sex. It’s a favorite television fandom pastime, with fans hotly advocating their preferred ‘ships between TV show characters. It’s mostly harmless, but it’s not a game I enjoy. All too often, it’s divisive, it’s polarizing, and it gets insulting; and even before that, I usually tune out for reasons of my own.
Before I get into my personal issues, let me say there are some shows where shipping doesn’t bother me in the least, because the ‘ship – or the competing ‘ships – are the whole point of the show. Bones and Castle, for example, are procedurals built around their romantic couple cores. The Vampire Diaries is nothing but coupling, in every sense of the term. Glee‘s high school hormones are set to music. Humans are sexual creatures, after all, and the romance dance is something we’re hard-wired to enjoy with whatever partners appeal to us. A lot of stories are written to play to that. They’re all about the romance, all about who’s going to pair up with whom and how and when that will happen and whether or not it will last.
What bothers me is when fan pressure for any particular ‘ship intrudes on a show where romance and sex aren’t the point. And that’s what this article is about.
I have a lot of personal issues with aggressive shipping. First and foremost, I resent its signature implication that romance leading to sex is somehow more real, true, deep, genuine, and valuable than any other love relationship; that love isn’t really love unless it culminates with two people bumping body parts. Back in 1968, science fiction author Harlan Ellison published a short story collection under the title, Love Ain’t Nothing But Sex Misspelled. I hated that title then and I still hate it now, because to me, love and sex do not equate, not at all.
By insisting on romanticizing and sexualizing every close relationship, shipping – to me, anyway – asserts that non-romantic, non-sexual, platonic love between close friends, work partners, squadron mates, and even siblings somehow isn’t as valid, real, or important as sexual love between romantic partners. There’s a push and even an expectation that any two people who are obviously close to each other either must be or should be romantically and sexually involved. And that, to my mind, is just wrong. And sometimes, it can hurt.
I may be particularly sensitive to this issue just because of my own age and experience. I’m a woman in my fifties, and became a lawyer back in May 1980. As a woman working in a tiny (I was half of the lawyer staff), male-owned specialty law firm in the 1980’s, I encountered and resented outsiders who assumed I slept with my partner/boss. I loved Vic dearly for himself and for the opportunities he gave me, even though I had to break his southern gentleman self of calling me “sweetheart” or “dear” (I started calling him “Sugar” and “Honey;” it worked), and I worked closely with him for six years. He was married, and his wife and I had a prickly relationship both because I didn’t fit her image of a suitably fashionable, class-conscious professional, and because other people assumed ridiculous and unfounded things about my relationship with her husband. She knew better, so there was never any real issue there, but her reaction to the perception was no less problematic for me.
Years before becoming a lawyer, back in the mid-1970’s, I rode with the Wisconsin State Patrol during college as part of a field experience practicum in criminal justice, and interviewed cops for a psychology paper on intergroup relations. I became intimately familiar with the issues confronting female cops who had to fight against the automatic presumption by others – notably NOT their partners, but sometimes their partners’ wives – that if they were partnered with a male officer, they’d inevitably wind up in bed with him just because they’d spend so much time together and share so many experiences on the job.
So, this whole thing about assuming or advocating romantic sexual relationships between any two people in close proximity who clearly care for and about each other just rubs me the wrong way on a personal level. Hey, I get some of it. Our society puts a premium on pairing people off. We’ve got a thing for couples and a taste for sex, and romance can be sweet and fun. But when the presumption intrudes on your own life, it can be a bitch.
And that’s part of why it irritates me so much when it intrudes on my TV world. Take an example. I loved The X-Files. Skeptic paired with believer; two FBI special agents teamed to investigate the weird. I loved the way it reversed many expectations: the scientist was female and the believer, male. The skeptic was traditionally religious while the believer wasn’t. Scully and Mulder began as wary almost-adversaries, and became partners. And I loved the balance in their professional relationship and the way it developed into friendship, making them stronger as a team, better able to anticipate each other and play to each others’ strengths on each case.
But the shipping pressure grew, and by the end, it became inevitable that Scully and Mulder would be romantically involved.
By then, I was gone. Never did watch the last couple of seasons. Never will. I just … can’t. It reinforced the bias that a man and a woman working together couldn’t be friends who truly loved and cared for each other without also eventually turning into sex partners. To me, it said the relationship between Scully and Mulder wasn’t complete until their care for each other turned romantic and sexual; that their non-sexual relationship was worth less than their biological union. And with a lifetime of my own experience of very close friendships, partnerships, and working relationships with men and women I loved deeply and knew well but had no desire to shag, I felt insulted and dismissed. And I remembered all those female cops dealing with the biased expectation that they’d inevitably wind up in bed with their partners, and I got angry. I didn’t bitch about the show, though; I simply walked away.
Every show involves relationships. Every interaction between humans involves them relating to each other in some fashion, and what brings us to stories and makes them emotionally compelling are precisely those human relations. But they’re not all sexual relations, and they don’t have to be sexual to be meaningful, deep, and real. Freud notwithstanding, life and love aren’t entirely about sex, and I think making them all just about sex diminishes them. And since the goal of shipping is romance and sex, I find shipping demeaning when it insists on transforming every close relationship into a sexual one.
And so I come to Supernatural. In my eyes, Supernatural – while it was conceived as a horror story – found its stride when the creators realized it was really all about family, and especially about the complex, close, and ever-evolving relationship between two brothers. While some fans come for the horror elements, I think it’s fair to say the majority are invested in the relationship between Sam and Dean, and in the brothers’ bonds with other people who’ve become family to them. I know that’s where my commitment to the show lies.
And that’s also where my resistance to people aggressively pushing shipping resides. To me, the Supernatural story isn’t about romantic attraction or sex between characters. It’s way bigger. It’s about love and family and duty; it’s about personal demons, desires, and dreams; it’s about sacrifice and caring and making mistakes and trying to do what’s right even when you don’t know what that is. It’s about the family you’re born to and the family you make. There’s sex and romance in there too because humans have them, but sex isn’t the point of this story: love is, and love is way the hell more than sex misspelled.
That became really obvious in season three when the CW network brass, which at the time really didn’t understand or care about the show – I’m looking directly at Dawn Ostroff, here – kept trying to force sex and romance into the show in the belief that guys needed additional eye candy to be attracted as viewers and that sex always sells. Ruby’s role was something Kripke deliberately planned, but Ben Edlund originally created Bela as a one-off, a greed-driven contrast to the self-sacrifice Kripke established as the hunter norm. Bela’s role expanded artificially to fill the network demand for the show to have two recurring female characters, with predictable consequences: the character didn’t mesh into the show. Fans generally hated both female characters not just because female fans were jealous of them, but because they upstaged Sam and Dean and promoted conflict between them. Fans stress about every schism between Sam and Dean because the central focus of the show is the brothers being together. And while some fans fantasize sex as part of that brother bond, many – I think most – do not.
I have absolutely no problem with fans imagining whatever sexual relationships they’d get off on between Supernatural characters. That’s a staple of fanfic, fan art, and the very enjoyable human sexual and romantic imagination. Hell, I’ve written Bobby/Jody. But I resent it when fans aggressively push their own ‘ships on other fans, and especially when they push their competing ‘ships on the people who create the show, wanting explicit recognition and validation of their ‘ship as a part of the show. Since I believe sex isn’t the point of this show and that making sex or romantic love the new focus of established relationships would demean what’s already powerful and there, I consider fans trying to force acceptance of their desired ‘ships on others to be particularly insulting to the show and its characters, not to mention its creators. I don’t consider that fans are EVER entitled to dictate to writers how their stories should be written; that is rude and wrong. And when that shipping push escalates into accusing non-shipping fans, writers, actors, and others of being homophobic or racist or haters or whatever the epithet of the day is for not promoting a particular ‘ship in the show, it’s more than crossed the line of acceptable behavior.
I think shipping wars are just made worse when they’re turned into advocacy. Here’s the elephant in the room. The two most vocal ‘ships on Supernatural are homoerotic ones: the Wincest of Dean/Sam and the Destiel of Dean/Cas. Advocates for the ‘ships argue that subtext supports them and explicit recognition – well, of Dean/Cas anyway, since many people still draw the line at incest – would benefit the LGBT community by putting a strong positive relationship in the public eye. Non-shippers like me who note that Sam and Dean have repeatedly self-identified as heterosexual males and that angels were represented as asexual beings, making same-sex relationships for them inconsistent with what they’ve professed, are met with the accusation of being blind, insensitive, or anti-gay. It’s a no-win situation.
It’s also a pernicious variation on the same societal expectation thing that made me abandon The X-Files when the Scully/Mulder ‘ship sailed, and I hope people might take a moment and think about that. The underlying societal assumption here – which the show has acknowledged in jokes – is that any two men who are close to each other, who love and care for and touch each other unself-consciously, obviously must be gay or bi and having sex with each other. I find that every bit as offensive as the automatic assumption that a man and a woman in close professional partnership, who love and care for and touch each other unself-consciously, must be sleeping together. And the nastiest part about both shipping assumptions is that the reality doesn’t matter; people react to their perception and assume it to be true, discounting any statement to the contrary as an obvious lie to hide the sexual truth. Talk about no-win. Hell: I’ve been there. And I wasn’t sleeping with the guy.
So I’m not down with that ‘ship, and I won’t go down with it, either. I support my LGBT friends, but I won’t support or play the latest shipping game on Supernatural.
I’ll save that for Castle, Glee, and Bones.
Wonderfully said, Bardicvoice.
I think that is why I loved [i]Criminal Minds[/i] for so long. They never felt they had to pair everyone up to sell their show. It was all about the close team who laid it all on the line every week and had each other’s back.
As far as [i]Supernatural [/i]is concerned I have always thought it was very unfair to have these characters (and the actors, by default) be accused of being ‘homophobic or racist or haters’ just because they are not, or have ever been, written that way. I have no problem with characters being written to be reflect a certain sexual identity but to force something that isn’t canon to appease a crying minority…then I have a problem.
I don’t care if there is fanfiction written along this line. That is something I can choose to read or not to read. It is a fun and clever avenue to widen the fandom to other perspectives of this story that we have all come to love. But I don’t want to watch fanfiction on Tuesday nights. I want to watch the boys, as they have always been, kicking supernatural ass like they always have and driving away on a lonely highway together like they always will.
Well-reasoned & expressed. Back in the day, I felt as you did regarding the X-files. The romantic involvement was forced & I lost interest.
Bardicvoice I want thank you for writing this piece. I am in the 60-year old category and so when all the shipping talk started I have to admit I was a little lost but then when I picked up on the meaning of some of the slash this person and slash that person well I was totally offended. I started watching this show because of the [u]family[/u], [u]brotherly love[/u] and the stories they were telling and then to have those out there trying to make it out to what it never was and never will be just kind of made me sick. I do not follow anyone that goes down that road and as soon as I find myself reading something that is going that way, I choose to stop reading. My prerogative just as it is theirs to write and think that way. It was refreshing to read your article and find that I am not the only one that does not like or participate in this kind of association with my favorite show.
I love what the writers are doing and cannot fathom trying to sway them one way or the other. They are the experts and the ones getting the paychecks for bringing us great tv week after week so “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. 🙂 It’s all about choices and for those that prefer a different story, maybe they need to find another show that meets those needs.
I absolutely agree with every word! Thank You.
I think we have almost lived the same life. Replace lawyer with engineer and there you have it. Same thing about using “honey” to combat “sweetheart” and having to deal with wives who were hostile and people who assumed to much. And I agree wholeheartedly on your take on Supernatural and the X files. Well said!
[quote] By insisting on romanticizing and sexualizing every close relationship, shipping – to me, anyway – asserts that non-romantic, non-sexual, platonic love between close friends, work partners, squadron mates, and even siblings somehow isn’t as valid, real, or important as sexual love between romantic partners. There’s a push and even an expectation that any two people who are obviously close to each other either must be or should be romantically and sexually involved. [/quote]
I couldn’t agree more with what you have to say here Bardicvoice, especially this above quote. When the bromance thread was getting so much traffic I was on there trying to express this point but it always seemed to get drowned out by the ‘why shouldn’t Dean and Castiel have a sexual relationship it won’t interfere with the show’ (oh it so totally would, but that isn’t the point). What is in your quote is the point. Platonic relationships are/should be just as important as sexual ones and there aren’t nearly as many of them portrayed on TV – so therefore there is this huge range of storytelling that you can have with these types of relationships which is yet to be tapped. However the showrunners are often pushed into the demand to make the relationships romances. But we all know all the variations on how a tv relationship will go, we’ve seen it a million times: courting, love,marriage, (children – and that always causes show problems) boredom (by the viewers) fighting, reconcilliation, fighting, affairs, reconcilliation, divorce – start over 🙂
And it is not different when the two people are the same gender either…
Give me two people who are close to each other but have the freedom to interact with everyone else, and have different communication than a couple has, that is fun too, and often we haven’t seen it before.
I was only vaguely aware that there was ‘shipping between Mulder and Scully but really to me what was fascinating about the show character-wise was watching a man and a woman work as equals (well mostly – she did need rescuing a fair amount) which was something that was really lacking in TV shows before that.
Thanks, folks! I’m glad this is resonating with people; I hope it might possibly make a difference and help change the tone of discussion on the topic. 🙂
I cannot cheer loudly enough for you to hear me, so I’ll simply say “thank you” for putting the arguments I’ve been making so much more eloquently than I ever could – especially the point about how insulting it is to assume that men and or women can’t care for one another without there being a sexual component to that caring.
The accusations that the writers of Supernatural get of being homophobic or of “queer baiting” are offensive. And the recent spate of abuse that the writers are receiving is bullying in the classic sense of the word. I say BACK OFF and let the writers take us on the journey, they’ve obviously done a great job so far – after all, we’re still watching.
LOL I just got the ‘ship’ picture – funny – I am slow tonight 😀
Amen.
There’s so very much I could say here, but I’ll just keep it to this.
There are some great TV shows out there that portray and explore some wonderful sexual relationships. We probably need more of them….because understanding leads to acceptance.
But we also need more shows that honour loving platonic relationships – shows that explore and highlight how strong devotion between two people can be (even) when the sex act is not involved.
More shows like Supernatural.
Thank you, Bardicvoice, and
AMEN!
Thank you Bardicvoice! This article so needed to be written and you did it beautifully.
st50 perfectly said!
eilf, ah I remember the Bromance thread well and not fondly!
I did learn a few new words on the Bromance thread!
🙂
Thanks so much for this Bardicvoice. I could not agree more. I have my own fannish ships and they are where they belong, fanfiction. Not only do I not expect to see them on the show I don’t want to, because that is not what drew me to the show and it would change the very nature of the show if it started. Your example of Bela was right on. The pressure to make her a romantic interest did not work in so many ways. Neither did Amelia or Lisa or anyone that has been brought in as a love interest. I often note that Supernatural does many things well, but romance is not one of them. There are shows that can weave the subtle and complex story of a man (or a woman) coming to realize that their sexuality is more fluid than they thought, but again Supernatural isn’t the type of show to deal with that.
I have read the tumbler posts, the tweets, the accounts of convention behavior that demonstrate the (small) faction of fandom that is pushing for a bi-sexual Dean and that is using the terms homophobic and saying that Supernatural has to do the story as some sort of validation of differing sexuality. And I really don’t understand the push.
I expect Supernatural to stay what it is, an action adventure show built around the close ties of two brothers and how they form close ties with other characters that are ties of friendship, loyalty and platonic love. That is the show that I fell in love with.
Mary, that is one of the best written articles on a pervasive aspect of fandom. I was shocked when I first ran across slash fiction. My brain was screaming, “That’s not canon!” Now that I know how to identify it, it’s easier to ignore as long as it is kept on LJ or fanfiction.net under a slash label.
Two things really disturb me about the fans who try to push their OTP on others or on the writers. One is claiming the writers or actors or whomever are homophobic because they don’t want the characters changed to fulfill their fantasies. I don’t see forcing your views of an acceptable pairing on anyone as anything less than bullying and discrimination in the reverse. Excellent point on that one, especially on this particular day!
The other excellent point you make is platonic love, i.e. [i]friendship[/i], is just as special and pure as romantic love. I think it is wrong to ever imply through your writings, musings, conversations or such that real people are something they themselves claim they are not. As public as the actors’ lives are, they deserve to be respected in their private lives, and that means leaving their private lives private! I don’t even buy the “they’ll never know or care what we say about them” defense. Asking the Js at Cons and making them feel uncomfortable obliterates that defense. The guys may choose to ignore it, or joke about it to diffuse it, but they can’t not feel it’s influence and undue pressure in subtle and not so subtle ways. That’s not fair.
I wish I had the actual quote, but I recently saw a Con video where Jensen comments something about how it is disturbing and sad that what he and Jared have isn’t good enough for some unless it is sexual. I think both Js feel strong love for each other, in the brotherly way that Sam and Dean do. And that is beautiful and touching as is, with no need of sexualizing it! Considering both are married and love their wives and children, it is disrespectful to push your own agenda on them.
Kudos for illuminating this aspect of the fandom. Those who never venture onto the Internet or forums and simply watch the show would be shocked at the stuff we see all the time. Most especially if the shippers got their way and canon was changed to conform to their narrow views and desires. Mainstream viewers would get whiplash at how out-of-the-blue anything other than heterosexual couplings would be on the show.
Sometimes I wish the writers steered clearer of the innuendo and didn’t tease and play into those fans’ desires. I see why the writers do it, but it only makes the shippers think what they want is truly coming. I hope not. I never want to abandon my show, but changing everything about it would strain credibility and make me very angry with those who pushed and pushed to get what they wanted regardless of what the masses expect.
This is awesome, respectful, and well stated. Thank you so much for writing this. On a personal note, Wincest has always really bothered me because the thing that drew me into Supernatural was how similar Sam and Dean’s lives and stories were to the lives of my siblings and I. Like the Winchesters, we grew up on the road. Like the Winchesters, we were always the outsiders, the new ones, the person who showed up in class for a month or two and then skipped town. And like the Winchesters, there are days when my brother, sister, and I could kill each other…but we’d kill FOR each other any day. My role as the eldest child in my family has shaped everything I am, and it sickens and saddens me that people believe such intense love and devotion must be sexual.
Quick clarification to my previous comment: like Bardicvoice, I think people are free to ship/write whatever floats their boat (or ship.) It’s the attempts at pushing ships on other people or claiming a ship is canonical that bother me.
I could not say it better myself. I know I’ve tried but .. this is beautiful expressed & well written. Thank you. Now I have something to share with others that speaks my thoughts more succinctly than I’ve been able to express on my own.
Additionally, forcing people to “be gay” is as horrible as forcing someone gay to be straight.
Jump on in my lifeboat, I won’t go down with the ship either.
Great article … and, just listen, I actually did start reading Destiel over the summer, and still do, but that being said I never once thought nor want to see it on the small screen. You’re right, it works just fine for some shows but make the show about either of the boys or Cas being lovey dovey whether it be about Dean and Cas or Dean and Lisa or Sam and Sarah Blake instead of focusing on family (including family that don’t end with blood) too much and it would lose something. I would never shy away from a show with a homosexual couple in the least (love Mitch and Cam from Modern Family, loved Willow and Tara on Buffy) but with SPN that’s not the point. Yeah, there have been some pretty eyebrow raising Dean/Cas moments but there’s also been a lot of moments between Sam/Dean and what I’ve gotten from those is that Dean also thinks of Cas as family, although if he has to choose he’ll always choose Sam … not judging him, it’s his actual brother so there’s no malice behind that statement.
Fanfiction, is great (ok, awesome) but keep the show about the actual brothers first with the rest of their family that doesn’t end with blood (Cas and now Kevin! Yay! That had me in tears) fighting demons, angels, ghosts, djinns and whatever else is dumb enough to underestimate them. That’s the main reason I watch.
Mary this is truly, positively, just perfect! I too am in my 50’s and feel I am pretty open minded. But I will admit to being shocked when my friend told me about the slash stuff. I was totally clueless it existed. But I didn’t judge, just thought ‘not for me’ and that was the end of it. But wow. one can’t escape it. Again, I do not judge and I am NOT homophobic. My sister and I have a great relationship and she is gay.
After reading your piece I don’t have to feel like a prude for feeling the same way. Thank you.
Thank you so, so much for this, Bardicvoice!
I agree with every. single. point.
I mean, I don’t have anything against shipping in fanfic, or fan art. Hell, I even enjoy reading it occasionally, although I’ve come to realize that I enjoy gen fanfics so much more, because they fit the tone of the show much better, and I guess that I even like my fanfics close to canon! 🙂
But the implication of the die-hard shippers that a loving relationship between two people isn’t really loving if it doesn’t culminate to sex really saddens me.
And the aggressive tone of some shippers lately, who demand their ship to become canon! right! now! is really bugging me. Hell, it’s even starting to make me aggressive. The constant pestering of writers and actors, the bullying of other fans who might not agree with this point, is going too far.
Shipping can be fun, and inspire a lot of creativity, and this is really great. But it’s something that’s great in fanon, and not something I want to see on the show.
This show is not about sexual relationships. It never was. It’s about family, and friendship, and devotion, and love. (And killing supernatural baddies along the way, and having great catching story-arcs… Yeah, that too :-)) That’s why I love it, and that’s why I keep watching.
So thank you again for adressing this important issue. And thank you for expressing so eloquently and respectfully what I wouldn’t be able to express myself.
I read the reviews after a show airs on this sight but rarely, if ever post, due to how quick commentors are to jump in defense or outrage or disappointment, etc.
But I just had to say; Thank you.
Well written, well thought, well-balanced, non-offensive and spot on.
Oh bardicvoice, you make me so happy!!!
I have to admit I loved the subtle romantic gestures of Scully & Mulder: when he teaches her baseball or when she grabs his hand. Unfortunately they worked better in theory than reality. I think the X-Files writers recognized their chemistry and may deserve some of the blame for encouraging that.
I absolutely get your point. SVU did it right with Olivia Benson & Elliot Stabler. I don’t know if there was a push to get them together but they never even approached it. There were even a couple episodes where other characters made assumptions about their relationship.
I say ship away if that floats your boat but don’t hate on us land lubbers 🙂
[quote]
ITA about ‘shippers’ that push their agenda on the writers/producers/actors. There are some that are nasty and aggressive and I am left with the need to ‘distance’ myself from them. Unfortunately, non shippers too often lump us into one pot and it’s not fair. You were very careful to not do that, so I’m not pointing fingers at you.
Just my two cents.[/quote]
I agree! I also ship for my own reasons, but I’m the last person to want to push my agenda on the writers. I trust them to tell the story & if it floats a ship 😉 in the telling, well that’s cool, but not a personal necessity. The story and over-all themes as Mary described them are more than enough to keep me watching!
Complete agreement, Bardicvoice. Nothing to add but thank you for stating this so eloquently.
Thank you so very much for this article, Bardicvoice. I completely agree 100% with everything you have written.
Also…
[quote]And the aggressive tone of some shippers lately, who demand their ship to become canon! right! now! is really bugging me. Hell, it’s even starting to make me aggressive. The constant pestering of writers and actors, the bullying of other fans who might not agree with this point, is going too far. Shipping can be fun, and inspire a lot of creativity, and this is really great. But it’s something that’s great in fanon, and not something I want to see on the show.[/quote]
And I am in 100% agreement with this. The bullying and pestering of both the writers and other fans who don’t agree is going too far. The other day I was reading the Twitter of one of the writers and I was astounded by some of the comments posted there.
I agree 100%. X-Files and Bones were ruined IMHO when the ship became canon. Men and women can be very good friends and love each other without having sex. If the sexual relationships of Sam and Dean become more important then the storytelling… I will be gone. Supernatural is fantastic…leave it alone!!
I think the friendship between Dean and Cas is something to be treasured. It has kept me watching the how long after I lost interest in the repetitive, often toxic portrayal of the bro-bond. As a D/C fan who is happy to squee over scenes that underline the mutual regard these characters have for each other without feeling that I’m “entitled” to expect more, I don’t like seeing that friendship disparaged as meaningless if it doesn’t eventually lead to canon D/C. I’m not remotely bothered if it doesn’t: I’m happy to see a deep friendship played out up until the show ends.
However, despite your personal aversion to shipping on this show, I think it’s important to acknowledge that any calls for a “shippy” resolution to the Dean-Cas relationship aren’t coming out of thin air. D/C fans haven’t imagined that Dean-Cas have been framed in a romantic way – the PTB have essentially admitted that they are being framed in that way, and that they have teased it. And fans respond to that. The PTB have also teased the possibility of Dean being bi (and can I just say here that bi!Dean isn’t a concept invented by D/C fans – it has been debated since S2 of the show, and also used to support a Wincest read of the Dean-Sam relationship).
“it’s divisive, it’s polarizing, and it gets insulting”
Very true. As a Casfan and a D/C fan, I (and my fandom friends) are bullied on an ongoing basis by bro-only fans who want my favorite character off the show. We aren’t just harassed and mocked for shipping D/C – we are harassed and mocked for even believing Dean and Cas have a genuine friendship. We can’t even enjoy Con tweets from Misha’s panels without bro-only fans harassing us and insulting Misha, using the Con hashtag on their tweets. If you check the writer timelines on any given day, they are also being carpet-bombed by bro-only fans demanding that Cas be written out, and howling that scenes in which the most basic interaction takes place between the two characters are “fanservice” even though the narrative, the showrunner, the writers and the actors have all acknowledged that Dean sees Cas as family.
Can I respectfully point out that you yourself chat with the fans who are doing this on Twitter on a daily basis? It’s your prerogative to chat with them… but it hardly suggests neutrality when it comes to writing articles about D/C shipping, and about Cas outside of that ship.
“I don’t consider that fans are EVER entitled to dictate to writers how their stories should be written; that is rude and wrong”
Can I respectfully point out again that you yourself chat with the fans who are doing this on Twitter on a daily basis? Calling for Cas to be written out also is dictating to the writers how their stories should be written.
I’m sensing also – and I’m sure this is unintentional – a subtext implying that not shipping these characters gives one an inherently superior insight into what motivates them. I think it’s equally valid to suggest that not shipping them might actually limit one’s insight into what motivates them.
I started watching this show before I even knew what the hell ‘shipping’ was (aside from, you know, mailing parcels across large distances) so I find the whole thing both confusing and a waste of time. I could best be described as an anti-shipper and I just don’t get all this vitriol being hurled at the writers because they won’t validate something the fans made up. The sense of fan entitlement regarding this is just infuriating and keeps me at more than an arm’s length from the rest of the fandom. I love the show and I go to conventions, but it’s this issue that keeps me calling myself an outsider. I don’t get it and I never will.
I don’t care if you write or read fanfic about shipping – whatever, it doesn’t affect me. But keep it in the fandom. Keep that line between canon and fanon. ’cause y’know what? There’s a lot of people who watch the show who don’t participate in the fandom, who don’t ‘ship’ and who just want to watch a show about some badasses killing monsters and being awesome. Harassing the writers and the actors and the other fans about one ship or the other does nothing but piss people off.
Everyone just needs to chill the hell out, really.
I completely and totally disagree with this article. I think shipping adds a wonderful element to shows. Every show I have ever watched has had shipping in it from Buffy to Scarecrow and Mrs. King. And I proudly ship Dean&Cas. I have no agenda. I have no expectations. I simply enjoy every moment they are together as Jensen & Misha bring an amazing chemistry to their scenes.
And, respectfully, I question your impartiality when you post regularly on twitters that promote a hate filled agenda towards Cas and those who ship Dean and Cas so I find myself reluctant to credit your theories.
Casfans and fans who ship Dean&Cas – which is just as legitimate as shipping Dean&Abbadon or Sam&Kevin – are constantly bullied and made to feel like they are less than true fans. I’ve been watching since Episode one which aired after the Gilmore Girls. I enjoyed the show and became passionate about it during Season 4 when Cas entered. So I’m as much as true fan as any as I’ve seen every ep. And as a Cas fan & Dean&Cas fan I vote in every poll and have helped bring tremendous publicity to Supernatural.
I believe that shipping enhances a show. SPN’s vibrant online presence brings it good ratings and online notice. And shipping – especially shipping Dean & Cas has only enhanced it.
And please, do not generalize. Most fans do NOT only believe that the show is only about Dean & Sam. I love Dean & Sam but as Bobby says Family doesn’t end in Blood. And as Dean JUST SAID IN EPISODE 2, his family is Sam, Cas & Kevin. So please, respectfully, stop speaking for me or the vast fandom out there. This is your opinion and I respectfully disagree with it.
I do not ship period regardless of who the characters are. I believe shipping is something personal to a specific fan not something that for me needs to be on the show. As equally as pro brother fans can be seen as aggressive then equally for me the aggressive behaviour from some within the Dean/Castiel fandom is reaching new proportions and lets not lie some of it aimed at Sam /Jared.
I have no issues with how anybody watches the show or why they watch it or what characters they a drawn to but there has to be common sense where expectations within any ship are concerned . I do not consider that I am limited in my view of the relationship between Dean and Castiel because I do not see the same subtext or context that others who ‘ship’ the pair do. Shipping is fine and should be fun but for some reason the Dean and Castiel one seems to of warped into something else and increasingly seems to of become more strident from some of those fans , not all but some that support it.
The point is for me at least is whether the relationship that some want belongs on the show and a does it fit in with the context of that show’s premise and I dont think Destiel does but the friendship between the two of them is different.
Respectfully, I am not, and I don’t think anyone here is, saying “don’t ship”, or that “shipping is wrong”.
The shippers – all of them – have definitely brought some good (and some not so good) publicity for the show. The same can be said of those who don’t ship.
It’s not a case of “this is good and that is bad”, imo….Simply that fanfiction is the place for shipping. (And there’s some really good fanfiction out there. Slash and not). It only needs to be onscreen if it is the creative choice of the writers and TPTB. I don’t believe it’s their choice, in this case, and I am not impressed with the harassment of the writers in trying to convince them to make it so.
Who Bardicvoice chooses to communicate with on twitter is really kind of irrelevant, imo. Suggesting that it is, is just another form of bullying, and doesn’t help make the point of the shippers. ( ETA: Surely people are not completely defined by what and who they ship – or don’t? I’m sure there are other aspects of those people that provide interesting topics to discuss. Communicating does not indicate approval of all of someones actions/beliefs).
Cas is family. Agreed. That’s definitely been confirmed multiple times on screen. As are Bobby, Kevin, and Charlie.
It’s the fandom wars… The bullying (from both sides) of other fans and those involved in the making of the show, that is wrong – not the shipping by those who enjoy it.
This conversation is bringing a whole other thought to mind that no one seems to be taking into consideration. I first off, have no issues with gays, I have friends that are and I never judge. There was a statement made that the PTB were even teasing that direction of story line and fans were in favor but I don’t believe there is a majority of fans that [u]are[/u] leaning that way and even if they are, here is the missed consideration.
Our actors. The real people. Forget the D/C and the D/S, Sam, Dean, Cas characters. Forget the Supernatural show totally at this point and focus on the actors. I cannot imagine that even if the writers tried to take a story line that way, that any of those actors would agree to going in that direction. They are all married, they all have children and they are all straight so no matter how great of actors they are, (and we all know just how great and talented they all are) I just don’t believe they would want the story line to go that way. From day 1 this story has been about family, whether it be blood or not, but just family and how they support each other in the fight against evil.
So harassing and bullying the writers and show runners to go in another direction or to delete characters is not only disrespectful to them but also to the actors we all love so one has to ask, just how big a fan are they? All of this of course is IMO.
I think that Jensen and Jared are professional enough that if they were told to play a storyline, they would do it. Jensen played a bi-sexual man in the movie Blond, so he obviously isn’t against playing bisexual in general. I do think that he would have trouble having DEAN be bisexual because he has said repeatedly that he has always played Dean as straight. Frankly I think having Dean and Cas in a romantic relationship would be caving to fan pressure in a way that would not be productive and would be detrimental to the story because it would be seen as caving into bullying.
I have had issues with the character of Cas for a while, mostly because the writers often seemed to have no idea what to do with him other than “fish out of water” comic relief. This year it looks like the writers will be handling him in a way I can relate to, so I’m hoping that I will be able to relate to Cas more.
That said, I have tooled around the Internet and I can honestly say that there are people who want every single character written off the show, possibly except for Dean. Bobby haters hated that Bobby became the answer man. Charlie haters think she is too Mary Sue and intrusive. Kevin haters think he is too young and whiny. Crowley haters think he has been on too long with no purpose. Sam haters either want him to get out of the way of Destiel, or want him to stop “getting all the storylines”, or think that Jared can’t act, or a multitude of reasons. Having people want Cas written out doesn’t mean he is a special target from people who don’t want Destiel. It means that he’s like 90% of the characters, liked by many, hated by some. In any case, the problem is not with people shipping Destiel, anyone can avoid that on the Internet by not entering a well marked post or hitting the back button for a not well marked post. The issue is a small, vocal group that are insisting that their ship not only be made canon, but that those who don’t see it must be objecting due to homophobia as opposed to “I just don’t see it, sorry”. To ME that crosses the line from shipping to bullying.
I applaud you for this! Well written. Well thought out. Well done.
Yes, the X-Files lost me as a viewer too when they turned the fantastic, realistic and wholly plausible friendship and respecting partnership of Scully and Mulder into romance. I’m not saying that romance can’t come about in this manner, however, this was purely done to appease a portion of the fandom. It failed miserably.
Also, as a female who also worked with many males in a largely male-dominated profession, I never once was attracted to them. Most were already married and I for one see that inviolable. Two, work is one aspect of my life, friendships and romance another. We need the balance between the two.
Well done, Bardicvoice. Respectfully said, and for that and for all your points, I applaud!
we don’t need more people bullying and shaming fans for their preferences. -_-
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Who Bardicvoice chooses to communicate with on twitter is really kind of irrelevant, imo. Suggesting that it is, is just another form of bullying[/quote]
I hope that Bardicvoice doesn’t consider that bullying.
I think it is extremely relevant given this post targets D/C fans for their aggression in trying to get the PTB to endorse their viewpoint, while barely referencing the fact the bi-bro/Wincest fans with whom she is friendly, do the exact same thing and also repeatedly tweet hate to Misha Collins.
It is relevant because it sheds doubt on her impartiality in this matter.
I’m personally not okay with the idea that shipping is just about the sex as this article seems to imply in places. While that is the case for some, it is not the case for all. Not by a long shot. Neither is the assumption many have that Destiel shippers are using LGBTQ rights and representation as a manipulation tool to justify the ship. Many of us simply recognize the chemistry between the two characters and would like to see it handled with sensitivity.
Choosing to ship or choosing not to ship is individual and I don’t feel that anyone should be shaming anyone else about the way they interpret their shows. The tone of this article suggests a certain level of shaming as if to say everybody who ships is wrong or missing the point. All people will interpret art through the filters of their personal life experiences. While you may choose not to ship, making people feel ashamed or wrong because they do ship is virtually the same as trying to make artistic interpretation an objective experience. Artistic interpretation is subjective. You can put the same painting, or the same fictional characters, in a room of a hundred people and there will be a hundred different interpretations of that painting or those characters. Our personal life experiences color the way we see the world around us. There is nothing wrong with shipping or not shipping.
I’m personally rather exhausted with people constantly trying to shame each other about what they choose to ship. I’m just as exhausted with the us vs them attitudes among different pairings as well. This article feels like an attempt to shame or to look down on people who see things a different way.
The one thing I do agree with is the harassment of the creative team. I personally have been trying to encourage people to stop rude harassment since I came into the fandom, but again, I feel it’s important to point out that it’s not exclusive to one ship. The loud minority exists in every ship, not only Destiel. It’s incorrect for people to point the finger only at that faction. The blame lies with the bad apples in every kind of ship as well as the non-shippers. It’s a small minority doing the harassing and the entire fandom should not be held responsible, especially when many of us are trying to encourage positive interaction with the creative team.
There is a huge difference between harassment and constructive criticism of episodes. I do feel that fans have every right to speak their minds as long as it’s done in a respectful manner. And that’s where the breakdown is – the minority of people who don’t know the difference or choose to ignore the difference between harassment and respectfully offering feedback.
But when fans paint all shippers with the same brush, that’s just as dangerous. It perpetuates the divided factions and leaves the door open for further bullying and cruelty.
Bullying happens to every type of fan. It’s a mistake to think one ship receives more bullying than another (I see this misconception a lot) because a lot of people don’t say anything when it happens. Nearly all of the Destiel shippers, Wincest shippers, Megstiel shippers, etc., that I know have received quite literal anonymous death threats, threats of violence, jokes about murdering fans, they’ve been told to kill themselves, and so forth. Most of these people choose not to say anything in public. I’ve personally been attacked as a Destiel shipper and my disability used as a weapon to try to bully me into silence.
As I’ve said time and time again, the inter-fandom bullying has to stop. Rudely harassing the creative team has to stop. One day it’s going to go too far and somebody is going to get hurt or hurt themselves. No sane fan condones bullying or harassment.
Changing attitudes begins with stopping the ship-shaming and learning that we’re all going to see things differently. It begins with realizing that viewing things our own ways doesn’t make it wrong whether we ship or don’t ship – it just makes all of us different. If people quit shaming each other into feeling wrong day in and day out, the bullying and harassment would greatly diminish. The problem is people keep trying to force each other into categories and people keep trying to force each other into “my way or the highway”. When people are slammed with “you’re wrong” shaming every day, it descends into the bullying and harassment we see today.
It has to stop. Stop making each other feel ashamed of how they interpret fiction.
[quote][quote]
Who Bardicvoice chooses to communicate with on twitter is really kind of irrelevant, imo. Suggesting that it is, is just another form of bullying[/quote]
I hope that Bardicvoice doesn’t consider that bullying.
I think it is extremely relevant given this post targets D/C fans for their aggression in trying to get the PTB to endorse their viewpoint, while barely referencing the fact the bi-bro/Wincest fans with whom she is friendly, do the exact same thing and also repeatedly tweet hate to Misha Collins.
It is relevant because it sheds doubt on her impartiality in this matter.[/quote]
I am obviously not going to go searching through Bardicvoice’s tweets to check out what she’s ever said, but I stand by my statement that people are more than what they ship – or don’t. Choosing to tweet with someone does not condone all their actions/beliefs.
I do agree that shaming of all people, rude comments and the harassment, must stop. And that has absolutely nothing to do with shipping or not shipping.
And with that, I respectfully bow out of the discussion.
The two most vocal ‘ships on Supernatural are homoerotic ones: the Wincest of Dean/Sam and the Destiel of Dean/Cas. Advocates for the ‘ships argue that subtext supports them and explicit recognition – well, of Dean/Cas anyway, since many people still draw the line at incest – would benefit the LGBT community by putting a strong positive relationship in the public eye. Non-shippers like me who note that Sam and Dean have repeatedly self-identified as heterosexual males and that angels were represented as asexual beings, making same-sex relationships for them inconsistent with what they’ve professed, are met with the accusation of being blind, insensitive, or anti-gay. It’s a no-win situation.
I am sorry but canon facts can be read completely differently by people with differing POVs.
You for instance don’t read SPN at all with a Shipper eye.
Those who see the Wincest.. not wrong either, and my personal feelings about it don’t matter.
Those of us who love Dean/Cas… it’s there, we see it, it is okay if you don’t.
But it is wrong for people to tell D/C fans they are CRAZY and WRONG for what they see.
Just as it be wrong for me yell at someone HOW DARE YOU WANT WINCEST or HOW DO NOT SEE THE SHIPPYNESS… You are wrong I am right…
That is B.S.
Subjective opinion of canon is what it is.. if you want FANS to RESPECT other fans… it has to GO IN ALL WAYS.
You can not tell any faction of shipping/or non-shipping that they are WRONG. It goes in every direction. Every member of SPN fandom should respect the others.
I see people pushing Sam and Dean only.
I see people saying D/C fans are delusion.
I see people screaming no SUPPORTING Characters and other wishing the support characters go more.
I see people who love the show for Team Free Will.
So whatever category you are in, someone out there in the fandom is telling you you are delusion, it is not just shippers, it not just certain shippers, it’s a problem that goes all ways and the respect for different opinions should go all ways too.
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I wish I had the actual quote, but I recently saw a Con video where Jensen comments something about how it is disturbing and sad that what he and Jared have isn’t good enough for some unless it is sexual. I think both Js feel strong love for each other, in the brotherly way that Sam and Dean do.
[/quote]
I don’t remember this, anything else you remember about the con so I can look it up? I remember Jensen doing an interview with the Fangasm people where he was talking about Sam and Dean and wishing that could be seen as just brotherly love but not about him as an actor and his private life.
This was the same interview where he said it was a hot fantasy 😛
“angels were represented as asexual beings”
Sorry, I can’t hear you over Gabriel, Balthazar, Future!Cas and whoever sired that Nephilim (and other Nephilim in the past) turning in their graves.
I think all Supernatural fans agree that the brothers love each other & Cas. The disagreement seems to be whether or not it’s romantic/sexual. Isn’t the LOVE itself is what’s important, not what form it takes? I don’t think the point of the article is to say shame on you if you think there are romantic pairings. The lasting message I got from this article was to acknowledge or appreciate non romantic love and not view it as somehow inferior to romantic/sexual love.
I was with this article up until it turned from “well written article on how the writer sees shipping differently” into “Massive critique/not so subtle side eyeing of shippers and Dean/Cas shippers especially”.
Firstly, just because someone has stated that they are straight, doesn’t mean that they are.
You have only to look at the many many many famous people who have been married and had kids, only to come out as gay later on.
Also, assuming someone is straight based a handful of things is really pretty shitty okay.
That’s like assuming someone loves RPGS just because they wore a Zelda shirt a few times. It may be true, but you can’t just ASSUME that it is.
Secondly, as has been mentioned, The angels were NEVER canonized as aesexual. At least not that i can remember. I remember quite vividly Gabriel and his porn video, Gabriel and Kali, Balthazar and his Menagietwelve, and Cas and Meg. So yeah no, not aesexual. You could really have left out the last two paragraphs, and had a great article that didn’t reek of passive aggressive side eyeing of certain sections of the fandom. I did love your take on shipping though, that’s an interesting way of looking at it, i hadn’t before thought about the societal implications of it all.
[quote]Neither did Amelia or Lisa or anyone that has been brought in as a love interest.[/quote]
That’s your opinion. You don’t speak for fandom and nor does Bardicvoice, whose whole manner is so pompous in this article it seems like she thinks her view is the right one, end of story. Lisa especially worked for a lot of fans who aren’t Wincesters like you.
[quote]There are shows that can weave the subtle and complex story of a man (or a woman) coming to realize that their sexuality is more fluid than they thought, but again Supernatural isn’t the type of show to deal with that.[/quote]
How do you know that? You won’t know until the very last episode. Maybe they are weaving precisely this.
[quote] I expect Supernatural to stay what it is, an action adventure show built around the close ties of two brothers and how they form close ties with other characters that are ties of friendship, loyalty and platonic love. That is the show that I fell in love with.[/quote]
How is you expecting the show to stay what *you* want it to be not another kind of entitlement?
[quote]I never want to abandon my show, but changing everything about it would strain credibility and make me very angry with those who pushed and pushed to get what they wanted regardless of what the masses expect.[/quote]
How do you know they don’t actually have a plan to do this? You don’t.
Fans who see D/C are seeing what the people who run the show put there in the first place. How do you know it isn’t leading somewhere? *You don’t*. And if it does go somewhere, with the showrunners intentionally doing it and the actors all in favor of it, what are you going to do then?
Brilliant article. I agree with every word, and it needed saying. Thank you!
Thank you for a beautifully written article. I totally agree with your point that love and sex are not the same thing, and that nonsexual love is every bit as powerful and important as sexual love.
Regarding my take on shipping, I think I should preface my comments by saying I am a fairly new Supernatural fan. I marathoned Seasons 1 to 7 on Netflix earlier this year and got hooked. Since then, I have sampled some of the huge trove of SPN fan fiction. Although I don’t ship any pairing in particular, I have read and enjoyed stories featuring several.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with shipping per se, if that’s your thing. If you imagine certain characters getting together, and you want to go online and write stories or gossip about it, that is all part of enjoying the show.
Shipping is only a problem when fans become obsessive about it.
When a fan Insults other fans for shipping a different pairing, that is over-the-top. Come on, it’s a TV show. It’s supposed to be fun.
When a fan lobbies the writers and producers to turn a particular pairing into canon — I think that smacks of obsession, but I can’t say it’s wrong as long as the fan’s tone stays respectful. Rude demands are definitely not okay.
When a fan reads her OTP into the show, even when it clearly isn’t canon, that’s starting to tip into disturbing. It suggests the fan is unable to distinguish between what’s in her head and what’s in the heads of the writers and producers.
When a fan thinks that real people — Jensen and Jared and Misha — are having homosexual relations because that’s what she ships, that is very, very disturbing.
Supernatural has a devoted fan base, which is a good thing. And every fandom has it’s lunatic fringe, I realize. But as a new Supernatural fan, I’m upset by the extremely demented posts/tweets I’ve heard about. Like saying that Jensen and Jared’s marriages are fake, or wishing that Jensen and Daneel’s baby died. It all seems connected to the homoerotic ships that dominate the online fandom.
Fans who go that far aren’t right in the head. But if the sane shippers would take it down a notch or two, maybe the crazies wouldn’t get so worked up.
Perused again months later, and edited for shifting views.
As above.
[quote] Non-shippers like me who note that Sam and Dean have repeatedly self-identified as heterosexual males and that angels were represented as asexual beings, making same-sex relationships for them inconsistent with what they’ve professed, are met with the accusation of being blind, insensitive, or anti-gay.[/quote]
A lot of people self-identify as heterosexual even if they have gay or bi leanings. There are reasons why they do that in real life, and in the hunting world (which has been presented as very cliché masculine), there are reasons why Dean might.
The show itself has dropped a lot of hints that he might be bi.
And a lot of the time people who are accused of being anti-gay actually are being that. I would say your apparent blindness to the fact people can come out as gay after years of living a straight life is a very heterosexist attitude, for example.
Also, like someone said further down in the comments here: the show is what the showrunner makes it. And unless you have a crystal ball, you don’t know what the endgame might be as regards Dean and Cas, and as regards Dean possibly being bi.
[quote]the central focus of the show is the brothers being together[/quote]
Not to all of us.
[quote]I have absolutely no problem with fans imagining whatever sexual relationships they’d get off on between Supernatural characters.[/quote]
Sorry but whether you intended it or not, the whole tone of this article is that you do have a problem with it and with any Destiel interpretation of those characters.
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Who Bardicvoice chooses to communicate with on twitter is really kind of irrelevant, imo. [/quote]
IMO her bias is important.
This is a writer who managed to review the first episode and not even mention a key scene: Dean praying to Cas, because the emotion of the scene translated as ew, destiel cooties. The people she hangs with on twitter send a ton of Cas hate and Misha hate to TPTB, and also pile in to bully Cas fans on twitter. Robbie Thompson and Adam Glass called them out a few weeks ago: How can she not be aware of that? She FOLLOWS them on there. She doesn’t follow a single Cas fan on Twitter, I actually checked. She immerses herself in Wincest bullies and I’m sorry but if Bardicvoice is gonna follow and chit-chat to someone like Kelios, with the tinhat nastiness she tweets about the Js and her vicious Cas and Misha hate, I’m gonna judge her hard.
And that means that seeing her writing an article judging Destiel shippers (because that is who this article is aimed at, lbr) is laughable. It’s like someone who is BFFs with that horrible Jared troll Kristy Hobbs coming on here and doing an article that is critical of Jared’s acting. And if that happened, people would quite rightly be angry about it and point to the bias.
I agree with a lot of points in this and it’s a well written (but subjective) article. But have one or two issues too. Declaring my own ‘allegiances’..I was a determined non-shipper until recently. I too thought it belonged in fanfic and fantasy, and enjoyed both Wincest and Cas/Dean fics of every kind. They are a great way of having fun and psychologically exploring the characters we love. With regards to canon..yes its fun interpreting those sidelong glances between S & D as something more, but I don’t personally see any canonical basis for wincest (I know others disagree). I AM a little shippy however with D/C, and came to that realization not because I am confusing fanfic with canon, or because I love the characters. There is a ton of meta out there – not all written by shippers either – that supports and expands on what I have been seeing. Of course we all see different things–our enjoyment is subjective, and I’m sure the vast majority of fans and watchers of SPN are happily oblivious to shipping aspects..I don’t mean that judgmentally, it’s just not part of their experience. There is no right or wrong in superior insight involved. To a degree we see what we want to see and perception is reality. But I see, as many others do, subtleties and subtext that indicate that the relationship between D/C is more recently being deliberately portrayed as both open to interpretation AND more textured than can be put in the ‘friendship’ or ‘familial’ box. And this is where I have a problem…boxes. I agree 100%..its not all about sex–sex is too simplified, idealized, manipulated, and pervasive in ‘our’ society, and not many women can say they haven’t negative experiences because of attitudes towards sex. But the point “Since I believe sex isn’t the point of this show and that making sex or romantic love the new focus of established relationships would demean what’s already powerful and there” is subjective..yes to the first part…sex has and never will be a motivating (or welcome) element of SPN, but there are lots of us who see and welcome character development that includes (NOT focuses on) these character’s ability to know and accept the fact they are allowed love/be loved (in ALL ways)…which brings me round to my main point. Love can take a million forms. Its fluid and vacillating can be one thing one day and different the next. That something can be ONLY ‘non-romantic’ OR ‘romantic/sexual’ is way too simplified for my taste, and in my experience. To elaborate would require a thesis however!
Do I want to see Dean and Cas start looking at each other with lovesick grins and making each other pie..no absolutely not. That’s not SPN and its not the characters. But if the characters, in the course of their journey (and I’m loving the journey they are currently on) are allowed to ask themselves “what if…” I would be thrilled. And I DON’T think that would be detrimental or demean the existing characters, themes and narrative. These characters are such a gift – layered and conflicted and inconstant in their ideals and emotions. I hope they only get more so! I agree the Mulder/Scully thing died for me once the reveal happened…not because it was wrong for the characters however–I think it was more the infamous ‘anti-chemistry’ between the actors..they needed the friction and anything else seemed false. But I don’t think that would be the case here.
Shipping is a valid part of the fan experience. Should the very vocal minority dictate or invalidate others experience of the show, NO! Should the writers be harassed and badgered by people who feel like they are…absolutely not! They are driving the bus and should be left to do so. They ‘GOT this’ and I implicitly trust them. And the accusations of queerbaiting are misguided, ignorant and hurtful…I cringe every time Adam G has to say something about it. There is a lot of obnoxious behavior from the shipping quarters, but not limited to it by any means. And not all ‘shippers’ can be tarred with the same brush. There are many variations and interpretations.
I won’t go down with the ship..a lot of my fellows are VERY invested emotionally (for right or wrong) and the community feeds upon itself hyping the emotions involved–again, I think simplified and idealized ideas towards the nature of love, and that romance and/or sex is a default are partially to blame. But equally I’m cautiously optimistic that these characters will be given a chance to look at each other for everything that is between them, colored by their unique natures and experiences, which can not be put into any box. Oh, and angels may have started as asexual, but that’s old news! 🙂
Can I kiss this article?
Thanks for the article. I enjoyed reading it. As most posters here, I think that shipping is fine. A lot of creative stuff has been done in fandom.
I think it is wrong for any fan to bully, name call and insult other fans and especially the writers and actors. We wouldn’t have this awesome show without their creative vision. I don’t do twitter or tumblr or any of that because of how the writers are often treated and also I think that demanding that a show go they way you want it to (whatever way that is) and then insulting the people that make it when it doesn’t is so far beyond arrogant I can’t even…
If we are all agreed that it is ultimately up to the writers to decide how the show goes, then why don’t we leave the writers alone and let them take it where they want to. Why so pushy? Are TPTB going to fundamentally change what ever plan they have for the characters because one group or the other yells more loudly or their insults cut more deeply?
As for my own personal preferences, I have to agree that there are certain favorite shows of mine like the X FIles and Stargate and Supernatural where I personally don’t want to see any shippy angst going on to change up the dynamics among the group. Carver said recently that at the beginning of each season before they write a word, they remind themselves that the show is about the brothers
The show to me is about brotherly love and family.
I have shipped couples on shows before but I think the much more interesting dynamic is the bond of brothers–and sisters. I am not sure exactly how to explain it but it seems more pure or noble or something–probably not the right words. Much more enjoyable than the will they or won’t they stuff. YMMV.
Great article!
I enjoy ‘ships for many shows, including SPN. But I enjoy them IN fandom. I don’t want or need to see it played out on my screen. There is a reason why there is fandom & canon.
I find myself getting exceptionally annoyed by the Dean/Cas for canon fans. Because I don’t think they are considering the show as a whole. All the Dean/Cas folks care about is whether or not Dean & Cas kiss onscreen & that is ridiculous. Just because YOU see something, does not mean every fan or the or the vast majority of viewers do.
And if you disagree with Dean/Cas or you don’t see it or support it, you are called homophobic. Which is again, ridiculous. Many Dean/Cas fans accuse other fans of attacking them…I have not see any of these attacks, but I almost feel they are asking for it. It is Dean/Cas or the highway. Or the writers are queer baiting.
I have seen posts on Twitter & Tumblr & articles by Dean/Cas fans who post they want to see Dean & Sam become less codependent or Sam find friends of his own. These wants are tied solely to the benefit of a Dean/Cas relationship and NOTHING else.
Not much could make me walk away from SPN. A canon Dean/Cas relationship would. Because it would be all fan service. And the show, in my opinion, has never given ANY indication that there is anything more than friendship between the two. It would come out left-field.
Dean/Cas fans insist that if their ship became canon, nothing would really have to change on the show. It could be a B-storyline. Dean & Sam could still hunt monsters, just Dean would go home to Cas at the end of the day. Are you kidding me?
Love your ship. Make graphics, writer fanfiction, squee like crazy. But do it on Tumblr or LJ and keep it there.
[quote]
The one thing I do agree with is the harassment of the creative team. I personally have been trying to encourage people to stop rude harassment since I came into the fandom, but again, I feel it’s important to point out that it’s not exclusive to one ship. The loud minority exists in every ship, not only Destiel. It’s incorrect for people to point the finger only at that faction. The blame lies with the bad apples in every kind of ship as well as the non-shippers. It’s a small minority doing the harassing and the entire fandom should not be held responsible, especially when many of us are trying to encourage positive interaction with the creative team.
There is a huge difference between harassment and constructive criticism of episodes. I do feel that fans have every right to speak their minds as long as it’s done in a respectful manner. And that’s where the breakdown is – the minority of people who don’t know the difference or choose to ignore the difference between harassment and respectfully offering feedback.
But when fans paint all shippers with the same brush, that’s just as dangerous. It perpetuates the divided factions and leaves the door open for further bullying and cruelty.
Bullying happens to every type of fan. It’s a mistake to think one ship receives more bullying than another (I see this misconception a lot) because a lot of people don’t say anything when it happens. Nearly all of the Destiel shippers, Wincest shippers, Megstiel shippers, etc., that I know have received quite literal anonymous death threats, threats of violence, jokes about murdering fans, they’ve been told to kill themselves, and so forth. Most of these people choose not to say anything in public. I’ve personally been attacked as a Destiel shipper and my disability used as a weapon to try to bully me into silence.
As I’ve said time and time again, the inter-fandom bullying has to stop. Rudely harassing the creative team has to stop. One day it’s going to go too far and somebody is going to get hurt or hurt themselves. No sane fan condones bullying or harassment.
[/quote]
It seems to me what you are saying here is very similar to what Bardicvoice is saying. I didn’t interpret her article as saying people are not allowed to ship what they want. What she is taking issue with when some fans argue that their ship interpretation is the one everyone must have and then leveling accusations of homophobia and queerbaiting at not only other fans but also the creative team. That’s taking shipping to a whole other level and one that is very hurtful and damaging to the people being labelled, as Adam Glass noted. And there seems to be more of these posts and articles coming out. To me, that argues a loss of perspective, not a commitment to social justice.
There’s nothing wrong with seeing chemistry between whatever characters you want–chemistry is subjective–but if the people creating the characters see something different, they are the ones telling the canon story. If you (and this is a general you, not any specific person) feel the need to call the writers or actors homophobic and queerbaiters, there’s a demand for control there that goes beyond having one’s own read of the relationships.
Okay everyone, I’m cool with a heated discussion, but enough slinging insults about who Bardicvoice hangs with on Twitter. That’s uncalled for and irrelevant. Please focus on the merits of the discussion. I know it’s a controversial topic so I’m allowing a lot of things, but try not to make it personal.
I agree with Bardicvoice, for those of you getting all bent out of shape……………….. STOP!!! Re-read the article, she is not condemning anyone for shipping whatever they want to ship. However the point I believe she is trying to make is that bullying the writers and other fans is unacceptable, no matter which side of the fence you are on. It is wrong for anyone to insist that THEIR opinion is the only correct one, everybody is entitled to their own opinion so why can we not agree to disagree on some things and just get along? And for the love of all please leave the poor cast, crew and writers alone to do their jobs, they really don’t need the input from fans unless it is to thank them for doing a great job.
I too believe that sex does NOT automatically equal love, eg one night stands. Nor does love ALWAYS lead to sex eg platonic love, like the kind you have for your friends, parents and pets.
[quote]enough slinging insults about who Bardicvoice hangs with on Twitter. That’s uncalled for and irrelevant. [/quote]
With respect, how is it irrelevant? If Bardicvoice is friendly with brofans who bully D/C fans and flood the writers with their own Wincest demands, then she really shouldn’t have been given leave to write an article judging D/C fans. Unless she plans to write a companion-piece that similarly judges those brofans for their aggressive shipping and insulting behaviour? Or does it only count as aggressive when it’s D/C that fans are calling for?
Again with respect, I agree with those who think her (apparent) bias is very relevant.
Okay, that does it. Enough.
First off, yes: this article is subjective and entirely mine. It is my opinion, and never was presented as anything else. I own it. In it, I said what I perceive, what I feel, what I believe, and why. Hate on me if you want; I expected some of you would, when I wrote this. I tried to be balanced. Some of you disagree.
I’m sorry if any individuals saw this as shaming of anyone who enjoys shipping. That was not my intent. I began by defining shipping precisely as I was using it here – promoting romantic and specifically sexual relationships between characters, not any other less-than-sexual sense – and why I often personally don’t care for it based on my own life experience, simply so my own point of view and my reason for it would be very clear. I put my biases right there on the table so you could see them.
I have always been up-front in my commentaries about personally not seeing [i]Supernatural[/i] through homoerotic sex- or romance-shipping eyes. I can’t write interpretations that I don’t see and believe in, so you’re never going to see a Wincest or Destiel take unless I perceive one. I haven’t. But as I’ve also said, I have no issues with other people’s perceptions or whatever character ‘ship people enjoy. I simply agree to disagree, and I’ve said so often. I’ve read some slash fic, but I don’t care for it because to me, the characters in it didn’t feel true to themselves as I know them from the show. I’ve got dear friends who love slash and write it exuberantly. The difference in approach doesn’t keep us from being friends and having fun. I will and have engaged in civil discussion with anyone who is civil with me. And as for whom I follow on Twitter: Some are people I know. Some I respect but have never met. Some are groups I believe in or news sources I want to track. And some are people and groups with whom I disagree, whether I know them personally or not. I often don’t like what I read, but I consider it important to not become so insular that I live only in the echo chamber of other people who think like me. So – don’t judge me on that, because you don’t know why I choose to follow or engage with anyone.
My issues arise when people insist to others and particularly to the show’s makers that whatever ‘ship or other thing they perceive or want is and must be acknowledged to be in the show. I have the exact same problem with fans bashing and bullying each other and the show’s creators to validate and accommodate their own readings of the show in other areas. That includes vitriol aimed at the show’s introduction, use, depiction, and treatment of characters other than the brothers, including Castiel, Bobby, Kevin, Garth, Charlie, Lisa – fill in the blank – and the ever-present accusations that writers are deliberately lionizing Dean and bashing Sam or sidelining Dean and giving all the mytharc to Sam. We’re all watching and talking about the same show, but you’d never know it if you were listening to all the simultaneous conversation in the fandom room. Much of that “conversation” has become cacophonous, repetitive, and disgustingly uncivil, in my opinion.
My view is, we’re all entitled to read into the show and comment about whatever we see there, but we are NOT entitled to demand the makers of the show validate our views or shape the story to fit our particular desires, and we are NOT entitled to claim our read is the One True Path and denigrate anyone who doesn’t agree with us as stupid, wrong, or a heretic. Those things, particularly when done repeatedly and rudely, fit my definition of bullying, and that, to me, is wrong. And I would apply that every bit as much to abusive behavior on the part of folk who insist the story kill off Castiel and have Sam and Dean never call anyone except each other family as I would to folk who insist that Castiel and Dean must obviously be lovers, not just – really, *just*? how demeaning is that? – friends.
If you’ve read my stuff, you know that I love Sam, Dean, and Castiel unreservedly, and am fascinated by the deep, complex, and caring relationships between and among them. I also love and respect all of the actors who portray these characters so well. I take issue sometimes with what the writers have done in individual stories, and I’ve been pretty scathing in some of those critiques, always explaining why I reacted as I did. I’m sorry if I can’t manage to cover every aspect of every episode in the commentaries I write; they take many hours to do, and I have to stop at some point. Reading some meaning into me not having written about one particular scene in an eleven-page-long episode commentary is a futile exercise. Every time I post, I kick myself for the things I forgot to mention and the points I missed making, and I always know I’ll never get it all or get it right. (Want to know my greatest reason for thinking I shouldn’t write them at all? That’s it, right up there with the hate.)
I specifically called out the current extremely vocal advocacy as being inappropriate because I’ve seen some advocates employing what I personally consider a reprehensible tactic that permits no discussion at all. I’ve seen individuals who didn’t agree with the promotion of a homoerotic ‘ship immediately slammed with the allegation that their very disagreement proclaimed they themselves had to be homophobic or bigoted, because any different perceptions of the show could only be grounded in denial and hate. That meant anything they said in support of their position could be discounted because their position was inherently invalid. That, to me, is an unwarranted personal attack that destroys any possibility for discussion or defense because the person attacked isn’t even allowed to present the rationale for his or her opinion. And that, to me, is utterly unacceptable.
In addition, if people – whether fictional characters or real ones – self-identify as being hetero, I find it offensive that anyone would automatically assume they must be hiding homosexual or bisexual desires just because others did that before. That pisses me off every bit as much as people asserting that anyone who is gay, bi, or transgendered is somehow abnormal or immoral, or that mixed sex partners must be sleeping together or that every pair of close male friends must be gay. Assumptions are arrogant.
So if you want to hate on me for this, go ahead. Some of you will anyway. We all see this show through different eyes. We all see things in the show that speak to us differently. Our different readings are all valid to us.
But we’re NONE of us entitled to IMPOSE them on each other. And we’re particularly not entitled to spew them onto the very people who work their asses off to give us this show with the demand that they give us instead the forty-seven-hundred different versions of the show we individually want.
So can’t we all please just be CIVIL to each other? And agree to freaking disagree about our interpretations, and let the show’s makers give us the show they’re creating? We’re NOT the ones who are making it. We can comment about what we like and what we don’t, but getting abusive and claiming the right to dictate terms to others on what the show is or is not is not acceptable.
And that’s it. I’m done.
*stands up and claps hand* 🙂
Hands!!
Yup. That! Can’t disagree there 🙂
The only comment I want to make is to point out how unfair it is to Mary to begrudge her decision to speak with someone on Twitter. Mary simply responds kindly to whomever engages her in conversation or who asks her a question. To accuse her of any wrong doing simply for responding to a particular tweet is grossly unjust.
Mary tries to be open minded and willing to see all sides. I envy her this ability since I admittedly struggle with that on a personal level. I’ve seen her talk with fans of all varying opinions and viewpoints. If a fan asks a question she anwers it. I wouldn’t be surprised if after this she’ll hesitate to respond to any one at all out of fear of siding with the enemy! (And I’m not referring to any side in particular). I feel certain that Mary will talk to whomever chooses to engage with her. Please no more unfair accusations.
Thanks for the article. I follow both Wincest and Destiel shippers (all great people) on Twitter although I personally ship neither. I have no problem with shippers except when they @ the writers with demands. I’m not sure why validation is needed outside of fanfiction. It only annoys the writers and seems to cause pain to those making the demands. Shippers impose self inflicted wounds on themselves when they do this. Please enjoy your ship but don’t try to force on the creators because they’re not going to change the characters to fit your fantasies.
I’m not sure why the author’s twitter feed would make her biased. She doesn’t ship on the show as she stated so who cares who she talks to. She’s not in a shipping war. Many of SPN fans are not in a shipping war. We’re just tired of seeing the writers harassed for not feeding fantasies.
Hi bardicvoice, I’ve been reading your reviews forever and I wanted to thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I agree that there need to be more strong platonic relationships on television, and that the lack of them can create problematic perceptions. (By the way, have you tried Elementary? They’re doing very well on the platonic relationship front.)
I think it’s important to remember that the way we view these characters is often based on our own experiences. For example, you have experienced strong nonromantic bonds with people of the opposite sex and would like to see more of that represented in the media. I think that’s completely valid, and I would like to see more of those types of relationships on television too.
My own experience involves many years of opposite-sex relationships before falling in love with my long-term (same-sex) partner. And the problems I had and still have in trying to explain my life to people is linked to certain perceptions that people tend to have, such as the idea that there is no such thing as sexual fluidity.
So I also have encountered problematic perceptions and prejudices that stem in part from a lack of visibility in our media of characters that represent my particular journey. For me, it would feel like a miracle to see the D/C relationship become romantic, because it would mirror my own experience in so many ways, and it would make me feel like I was visible. For the record, I am highly doubtful that it will ever happen, and I realize that it’s not the job of the show to be my own personal mirror. But I can’t quite bring myself to stop hoping.
I very much agree that Supernatural is a show about love—and the word they use for love is “family.” Families, of course, can include both romantic bonds (such as the bond between spouses) and nonromantic bonds (such as between siblings, parents and children, friends who have reached the level of family, etc.) Romantic bonds are neither more nor less valid than nonromantic ones. But the point of being a family is that it’s the love that’s important, and that family love encompasses all of these different types of bonds.
[quote] I often don’t like what I read, but I consider it important to not become so insular that I live only in the echo chamber of other people who think like me. [/quote]
Not trying to be rude or anything but if this is the case and you’re trying to avoid being insular, why are you only following and talking with really horrible Wincesters and J2 tinhatters? Why are you not following any destiel/Casfen? If you want to comment on their beliefs shouldn’t you be following some of them and discussing the show with them too?
It’s encouraging to see that most fans agree with Bardicvoice. I also agree and find it very annoying that a minority of fans feel justified to pressure producers and writers to change this show just to make them happy. It’s selfish and shows no consideration for the majority of fans who fell in love with the show and its characters as they were originally conceived.
[quote][quote] I Not trying to be rude or anything but if this is the case and you’re trying to avoid being insular, why are you only following and talking with really horrible Wincesters and J2 tinhatters…[/quote]
The mere fact you had to preface your comment with “not trying to be rude BUT” indicates you had every intention of being rude and yep, sure enough, you were. Making unfounded, accusatory blanket statements doesn’t support your point in the least. If you even have a point. It goes towards the bullying behavior Mary mentioned in her article. Think about it.
I don’t have a character ship and I’m not the greatest swimmer, so I wasn’t going to jump into these waters, but according to Dante a ring of hell is reserved for those who don’t choose a side, so here goes.
I generally agree with Bardicvoice.
In my opinion, romantic ships of ANY sort don’t belong in canon on Supernatural. In fanfic- yes, absolutely — ships ahoy!
I believe that part of the reason that Supernatural appeals to so many folks in so many fandom-y ways is that the show leaves room for the ship of your choice.
Part of the reason why the explicit romantic relationships that the boys have had on the show are not popular is because they take up that space and get in the way of the viewer’s ship of choice — which includes no ship at all.
I said I don’t have a character ship and I don’t — but I do have a MarySueish avatar character — actually many of them — who have had many excellent adventures in the backseat of the Impala with Sam & Dean.
Me personally – I don’t see the boys as anything other than heterosexual. In my opinion, the subtext often sited as indicating anything else doesn’t read that way — to me.
In my opinion, in my interpretation of the text and images we are given, the show doesn’t support anything other than friendship and platonic, family love and respect among the male characters.
But as I said, the show leaves room for different intrepretations. Obviously many other fans of the show intreprete the text and images differently than I do.
Is my opinion informed by my personal experiences, preferences and sexual orientation? Of course it is.
As is everyone’s. We all bring things in our personal lives to our interpretations of art, and literature — which I consider Supernatural to be — and its a wonderous thing to me that Supernatural can speak to so many people on so many different levels and in so many – often juxtaposed – ways.
The first thing that grabbed my attention to this article is that it is categorized under ‘opinion’, a fact some people who commented seemed to miss. The second thing is that the premise of this article is about bullying, so I find it funny that some left comments doing just that, and bringing irrelevant points to the discussion. I follow bardicvoice on twitter and I have never seen her engage in any form of negativity concerning the show, sometimes I try to follow her lead when I see things I don’t like and just focus on what I like. Coming here and trying to invalidate her opinion simply because you looked at her following list is so childish, instead of discussing the points she put out there, you’re just trying to cancel out her voice because she follows some opinionated people that you don’t agree with. That is a very weak argument and just shows lack of reason.
I appreciate the personal approach you took with shipping, Mary. I must admit that I’m a shipper (not on Supernatural though) and I have never looked at it that way. Granted, I think shipping can be very positive in fandom, allowing fans to be creative and come together to think of their favorite characters outside the box. I must admit that I’ve had many objections concerning the show lately, and I definitely see some problematic aspects concerning certain things and how they deal with them, and sometimes I ask them questions on twitter, but I don’t find it useful to pitch them any ideas or campaign for certain storylines, simply because as a viewer it is not my job, also because as a creative team, they have a certain plan in mind that I don’t think they would change based on fans’ suggestions. Also I have an understanding that this is a show watched by millions, most of whom are not active in online fandom. This show has a certain formula that has been ongoing for nine seasons now, and it kept people engaged, online fans who campaign that the showrunner change this formula because they got bored with how the main characters are portrayed or the nature of their relationship are just being impractical. There is no need to fix what’s not broken, right? Why would they change the main draw to their show, the main attraction that holds the viewers’ interests?
I also thought the point of this article is very clear, it may be about general online bullying for some, but the writer specifically mentioned the never ending demands the writers get and the constant pressure to inflict certain directions on the show. These writers are very open minded who don’t mind criticism (I’ve seen some of my friends engage with them in conversations about things they found problematic and they were very welcoming to discussions), but when they find some people regularly throwing accusations at them of favoring certain characters, or queer baiting or being heteronormative, that’s when the line is crossed. Especially when everyone knows that it is impossible to please all the fans, I find it very sad when one of the writers becomes defensive on twitter because of said accusations.
Regarding comments about shipping and its influence in online representation, I’m not sure this can be taken as totally positive. Of course shipping may give the show online fame (mind you, this doesn’t really help the ratings since ratings only count if you are in the US with a nielsen box, a complicated process that does not necessarily reflect the true count of people watching Supernatural especially, because I think of it as a cult show, but is definitely the key to renewal). The point is, online popularity is not always a positive thing, sure many people especially shippers revel in the online fame that winning polls and online contests based on number of voting gives them, but also I find it very sad that the Supernatural fandom is known to be one of the most vicious fandoms online, because of the shipping wars and fighting about different points of view, the internet lumps the whole fandom in one category in such a negative way, we are also known for hating on female characters and misogyny, whether intentional or unintentional, for example when shippers are upset that a female character is standing in the way of their ship and call for killing her off, which doesn’t bode well now on the internet, when people are more aware of how bad this kind of behavior is, and with the rise of several shows that have females as the protagonists. I find this the most problematic aspect about the Supernatural online fandom, for me it beats the positivity of winning polls and getting recognition. So as I said, online popularity is not all a good thing.
And finally as my personal opinion, I feel like any ship becoming canon on Supernatural will limit the story and will cause more harm than benefit. Everyone has different views concerning the relationships between the characters and stating one form as canon just limits fans’ interpretations.
@Marie2. Thank you for providing an example of why this piece was written.
[quote]and yep, sure enough, you were. Making unfounded, accusatory blanket statements doesn’t support your point in the least. If you even have a point. [/quote]
It wasn’t any kind of ‘unfounded’ statement. And there is a point: This person writes an article that mainly focuses on and criticises one group of shippers while ignoring the fact that her friends on twitter do exactly the same thing as the fans she is criticising. She also claims to be following a bunch of really nasty people because she’s trying not to be insular, yet she isn’t following anyone from the group she is criticising.
tl;dr: I don’t think the people here questioning her neutrality are being unreasonable in doing so.
[quote]@Marie2. Thank you for providing an example of why this piece was written.[/quote]
It’s not unreasonable to question Bardicvoice’s neutrality, actually. Not when she’s focusing most of her criticism on one group of fans while being friendly with another group who do exactly the same thing and who bully other fans while doing it.
/shrug
[quote][quote][quote]and yep, sure enough, you were. Making unfounded, accusatory blanket statements doesn’t support your point in the least. If you even have a point. [/quote]
It wasn’t any kind of ‘unfounded’ statement. And there is a point: This person writes an article that mainly focuses on and criticises one group of shippers while ignoring the fact that her friends on twitter do exactly the same thing as the fans she is criticising. She also claims to be following a bunch of really nasty people because she’s trying not to be insular, yet she isn’t following anyone from the group she is criticising.
tl;dr: I don’t think the people here questioning her neutrality are being unreasonable in doing so.[/quote]
focuses on and criticises one group of shippers while ignoring the fact that her friends on twitter do exactly the same thing as the fans she is criticising. She also claims to be following a bunch of really nasty people because she’s trying not to be insular, yet she isn’t following anyone from the group she is criticising.
tl;dr: I don’t think the people here questioning her neutrality are being unreasonable in doing so.[/quote] What article did you read? Where was she calling out “one group of shippers” I didn’t read that anywhere. I
[quote]
It’s not unreasonable to question Bardicvoice’s neutrality, actually. Not when she’s focusing most of her criticism on one group of fans while being friendly with another group who do exactly the same thing and who bully other fans while doing it.
/shrug[/quote]
It is, however, a little unrealistic to expect an opinion piece to be ‘nuetral’.
[quote]
It wasn’t any kind of ‘unfounded’ statement. And there is a point: This person writes an article that mainly focuses on and criticises one group of shippers while ignoring the fact that her friends on twitter do exactly the same thing as the fans she is criticising. She also claims to be following a bunch of really nasty people because she’s trying not to be insular, yet she isn’t following anyone from the group she is criticising.
tl;dr: I don’t think the people here questioning her neutrality are being unreasonable in doing so.[/quote]
You have every right to ponder her neutrality, because it’s certainly your viewpoint, and her article plainly professed to be her own opinion. But you’ve pointed out no specific examples to support any of your claims, so they kinda are ‘unfounded’. I dunno, but I read the entire article, and it didn’t seem to me to be centered solely around attacking one particular group. It addressed shipping in general, and brought up many other shows. Yes, there were places at which she criticized what she saw as bad behavior on the part of some fans; I guess you need to ask yourself (if this does indeed bother you) “Am I one of those people?” And if so, are you happy being this way? Might there be a better way to accomplish your goals? Are these goals even worth pursuing? Lotsa questions to consider …
Mary Mary — I can’t tell you how I have longed for an article like this one! I agree with it 100%. You are a courageous lady to have written it in this time of Wincest/Destiel shippers’ aggressive shipping. As far as I’m concerned, they can ship to their heart’s content among themselves and like-minded, but bug off pestering the non-shippers and the show creators.
Just reading some of these posts 😡 is disturbing. Let me enjoy my favourite show in my own way, and I’ll let them do the same. The rabid comments of some are frightening almost. 😮
Like Dean said – “Demons I get, but humans…..?”
Thank you Mary for this article!
Honestly I really don’t care about what an author does or doesn’t do in their personal life. It is none of my business!!. Bardicvoice wrote an article, I took it at face value and I agree with her absolutely. She did not, as claimed, single out anyone. We are agreeing with her bottom line that putting pressure on a show, it’s writers, producers, actors, directors, whomever, to change anything to meet the demands of fans is ridiculous. And people who ship are fine with most all of us. Just keep it out of our show unless that is the direction they choose to go!! It is time to move on.
I have a lot of observations about this matter, as many who know me will attest to. I hesitated to respond to this article but the posts have made it clear that there seems to be a disconnect occurring that disturbs me greatly.
First, I am a shipper. I was around when that term came into being – as someone who advocated, wrote fanfiction, and loyally followed the Mulder/Scully relation-“ship”. I have been a shipper for many years for many ships and in many fandoms. I have been a shipper for both romantic and non-romantic pairings. I think shipping doesn’t necessarily have to be sexual but that it often is. I think the sexuality acts as an analogy for a deep, emotional connection that sex can act as a material event for. I think shippers perform most of the labor in fandom and that this show, especially, owes much of its public face to the Wincest and Destiel shippers. I think that labor should be appreciated and commended. Shippers participate in polls, write for big bangs, and post art that gets reblogged thousands of times. Shipping is work.
Second, I am a believer in readers and reading. I think that writers simply relay stories and that the meaning comes from reading, from the connection the reader makes to the text, whatever and however that happens. If you ship and that’s where your meaning emerges, then by all means, you are entitled to that reading. It is YOURS. And your reading is no less or more legitimate than mine. It’s what I believe and what I try to adhere to – do I ship on Supernatural? Yes. And it’s also the reason why I have no desire to see my reading reified by the concept of “canon.” Canon, for those who don’t know its history, is a term of fundamentalism, a set of rules that establish a principle, etc. Canon and dogma are playmates to absolutism. I have no need for canon except as it allows me to reconceptualize (both positively and negatively) my own readings.
Canon to me, in other words, is as useful as fandom, which is why it puzzles me to engage in canon v. non-canon debates. Fandom is ours, not the show’s. I believe we don’t need a room full of mostly men authorizing our reading. We can do with the text what we want and thank some god or another for that. We can be protestants! We can make Dean Winchester a full-fledged bisexual who has a panty kink and likes to watch porn with men, women, and various appliances. We can make Castiel a time traveler who thinks 1921 was the best year because he could have sex in the back of a jazz club with a transvestite while listening to gangsters carry liquor out the back door. We can make Sam into a monk who believes the best course of action in the world is the letting go of all bodily desires and committing to meditation and peaceful reflection. We can do what we want and the show can’t stop us!
And that’s why I love fandom, fan production, and yes, shipping. And that’s why I think trying to get a reading authorized by the show actually undermines this power because it implies that canon is superior in some fundamental way – by asking for authorization we de-authorize ourselves and that? That speaks of a too close identification with the text – a slippery slope into a victim narrative that says “If you don’t see IT, then you don’t see ME.” And that puts far too much weight and importance on a show that has proven many times that it has a limited understanding of its moral and social implications.
We can ask it to tell its story and sometimes we won’t appear in its text. Sometimes we don’t belong in it because they, you know those guys in the room? – they don’t know how to write us and that’s okay. But that doesn’t mean we don’t exist, doesn’t mean we aren’t represented, doesn’t mean we don’t have voices. Because we do. We have a place and it’s here, in fandom. You know why? Because many times our fandom has produced better stories, better writers, and better characters than the canon could ever hope to produce. Sometimes our fandom is far superior to our canon, and I, for one, like it that way.
Just my thoughts….
I’ve had some complaints, so after going through all these comments I have this to say.
When Bardicvoice approached me with this article, she knew that it would very likely cause controversy. After all, anyone that has been involved with the fandom a long while like she and I know that it is truly a very sensitive one, and often volatile. However, when I asked Bardicvoice to become a writer for The Winchester Family Business a few years ago, I asked her because I highly valued her opinions. This site from day one has always been an opinion site, and I knew she fit the mold perfectly. She’s always been balanced, fair, and usually extremely honest with her outlook on things. She is one of the best writers this fandom has ever had.
As Jay so wonderfully pointed out, this article is under our category of “Opinion.” It’s a category I have historically used for strong commentaries from our writers about subjects that have been controversial in the fandom. I’ve probably written more of these types of articles than anyone. Opinion articles are important though, because they address topics in the fandom that should be brought out. I know I’ve often spent time online and a certain subject comes along that I just feel compelled to say something about. Opinion articles are not considered to be fact or a statement for everyone in the fandom. It is the writer’s POV.
Shipping wars have become quite prevalent in this fandom for a while now, but especially in the last season, now that the writers are accessible to Twitter, it’s become very noticeable. It’s exactly the kind of topic we should be discussing here, and I applaud Bardicvoice for taking it on. If she hadn’t, chances are I would have.
I’m not going to say if I agree, or if Bardicvoice is right or wrong in her views. These are her views, and I know all of these responses represent your individual views. We welcome all opinions here, no matter if they are popular or not, but we don’t welcome nastiness. This is an environment of respect, and no one group is being singled out here, no matter how hard some of you are trying to read in between the lines.
We all don’t see things the same, and there’s never an expectation that we should. So, feel free to respectfully disagree. But please keep in mind “respectfully” is the key word here.
Thank you.
I’ve debated for days if I should say anything about this as I prefer to stay out of things like this, but I think I should say something rather than remain silent.
First of all, thank you for writing this, Mary. You didn’t shy away from this topic, and by posting this you have brought forth a discussion I think needs to happen.
As for me, you could say I have one foot in and one foot out in many ways. On one hand, I am glad that this show isn’t about romantic pairings nor does it have any actual ongoing long term romantic relationships. It’s not why I watch this show. I watch it for the brotherly bond and for the story about family conquering evil and for the kick ass fantasy. I don’t really need the show to show me some romantic element for me to enjoy it—and I find I generally do not miss that concept in the show or feel it is lacking for not having it.
That being said, I have actually read some “relationship” fiction of the slash variety and found that I’ve enjoyed those, too. I can see where some of the shipping for either major slash pairing comes from and I can see why it’d be fun to write or fantasize about that and I’m all cool with it. To each their own. Those who don’t enjoy it don’t have to read it or look for it or whatever, and those that do can explore and have fun doing whatever they like with the characters. They’re fictional characters, and that means anything is fair game. You could make Dean dye his hair purple and that’s okay because he’s not actually real. No one’s getting hurt by these fanfictions or fanarts, so why not let loose?
What’s bothered me, however, about this shipping controversy of late is the warring within the fandom among the various factions and who is “canon” and who isn’t and who is right and who is wrong. I also don’t like the fact that some members of these factions are going after the creative team to get their particular ship put on the show. It’s rude and demanding and uncalled for behavior. I also don’t like seeing everyone draw lines in the sand between one another and break up into this camp or that camp and demand that each fan should choose their “team” and then be prepared to face anger or bullying because of it.
I was in another fandom before this that had this very issue (and a handful of others) that ended up ruining that show for me because it was a bunch of fighting. It’s one reason why I’ve held my tongue until now. The last thing I want is to have the sour side of fandom ruin this show for me. In fact, I refuse to allow that to happen for me.
How? I divide the line simply this way: There is the SHOW and what happens on screen and what’s said and then there’s what’s created in fandom be it meta articles discussing what happened in an episode or a fanfic or fanart. They are two separate things and I never ever confuse the two as being the same thing. I may enjoy a fanfic a ton and see how something in the show may have inspired that, but they’re still separate.
All in all, what’s on TV is created by a group of people that are trying to tell us the best story they can—-someone will totally love any particular episode/season/whatever, someone will totally hate it, and someone will love some parts and hate others —but really it is their story. What we do after we see that story is ours as the viewer and ours alone and not the SHOW itself. What we do after we see the show is how we take ownership over it, yes, but to ever demand they tell the story we want to see is to try and take away their creative right—just as it would be wrong for them to tell us we can’t interpret it each of us in our own way.
For me, I guess, I don’t really care if you ship or don’t ship or whatever. But please, don’t fight about it. Just have fun and let others have fun.
Those are my two cents, I guess.
I haven’t had a chance to read any on the comments yet, so I may repeat things that have already been stated. I’ll say right off the bat that I do have a tendency to be a shipper. I shipped Scooby Do characters as a kid. And I was a HUGE HUGE MASSIVELY ENORMOUS Mulder and Scully shipper. I still think it was the best romance ever on television and perhaps in the movies as well. And I disagree that that them getting together was just living up to a certain assumption on the part of the viewer and disrespected their previous relationship in anyway. That was the best thing about it is that it didn’t really change there relationship in anyway because it never mattered whether they ever had sex. They always the most important thing in the world to one another whether they bumped uglies or not. (even though I read hundreds of fan fictions where they did -first fan fictions ever-loved it!) So the fact that they were 2 consenting unattached adults who were each others worlds and were attracted to one another -to me why wouldn’t they eventually have sex. Hell they waited 7 years. And we never saw it in the show. So it still wasn’t about sex for the story.
That said. I wasn’t sure I actually wanted on the show. Because the show wasn’t sexually focused. And in there defense, still wasn’t even after we found out she was pregnant, which was the only evidence when had of sexual contact and even that was left somewhat questionable for quite a while.
With Supernatural, it is a whole different set of circumstances. In all honesty, I recently read the articles making a case for Wincest and Destiel. Blame SupernaturalWiki. (There were links and I was curious.) Not surprisingly the case for the Wincester was very compelling. After all, even the show has implied they are soulmates (which I believe is true) and they’ve literally gone to Hell for one another. But that is actually what makes that ship so disturbing, (and the same as your point) Is that the implication is that only sexual love can be deep or meaningful or that if they truly love each other they would have sex. Even for characters who are brothers where one helped raised the other. That is just messed up. Seriously. That really bothers me.
I think that is why when I thought they were all just porn without plot I had less of a problem with it than when I found out some were being written as love stories. They do have an epic love story just without the sex, since 1) (and most importantly they are brothers) and 2) they are both heterosexual.
The Destiel, I’ll admit I simply don’t see. I read the articles and had long debates on this when when WFB Dean bisexual or bromance article. And I’m sorry I only have ever seen bromance. I’ve rewatched watched these episodes dozens of times and never seen any indication that the writers were sending secret messages that Dean was bi. (Okay I MAY give them the coat scene-cause that was just WTF.) Even if he WAS bi(and the evidence is EXTREMELY subjective) I have seen nothing to indicate any kind of epic love story. He’s upset when he dies but he was more upset about Bobby than Castiel and again sold his sold for Sam so…….. Not really seeing their point. But hey whatever. As long as it left to fan fiction. I’m good.That’s what it’s there for. It’s where Harry chooses Hermione and Bella choose Jacob. And Dean has the hots for Castiel. That’s all good. I’ve delve into a little man on man fic myself and completely understand the appeal. That particular one is not to my taste but again to each his own.
But this show is barely more sexual than X-Files (a lot less even if you include M/S sexual tension). We’ve had what 5 sex scenes in 170 some episodes. And had almost no romance of any kind as a focus for more than a episode. It is a show based on family and love. I believed does care a lot about Cas as family. But any romantic relationship between them would come out of left field and would be a huge distraction because they show has never really been about that.
I really think it is wrong and rude to bombard the writers with your own personal tastes and agendas. I still absolutely LOATHE what they did with Sam the first part of last season. I really really really really really hate it. Still not over. Will probably never be over unless they answer my prayers and fix it. But I restrained myself to prayer, I wasn’t sending Adam Glass and the other writers nasty messages on twitter. Excusing them of gay baiting and who knows what else. (well I guess in my case it would have been ruining Sam or whatever but you get my point). For one thing it is really hard to articulate complex ideas in 140 characters I’ve found or even fairly simple ones for me-I have a tendency to be verbose. Shocking I know. I kind of wish the writers would just do the one way messages. Because it is one thing for them to seek out a forum and read the comments like Kripke insinuated he did, it’s another to have them coming at you constantly.
Oh one quibble Bardicvoice, angels have been shown to be sexual. Balthazar and Gabriel were very sexual. One had a twelvesome and the other made a porno.
I guess I have one more comment to add. I think shipping is natural and can be great fun and can also offer a way to engage with a piece of art in a way that is very meaningful from a personal perspective–and if that way resonates with a lot of other fans, it can offer a community. I understand the appeal, even though I don’t have a ship on Supernatural. I find the core to be about the relationship between the brothers and what resonates with me is what it says about non-sexual family bonds and the power of love. But I can see why there is both Wincest and Destial fanfic. As there will be Abbadean fanfic. Where there’s chemistry, there is fanfic.
Where I begin to have an issue with shipping is when the line between what fans do with the show and what the creative team does with the show blurs for some people. Not only do I think there’s some terribly rude behaviour to people who work hard to make something we love, I don’t think the impact on the story itself is positive–and that should matter to everyone.
My perspective is partly shaped from my years as a dedicated fan on House. I thought that series was extremely well written and acted in the beginning. It spawned three passionate shipping factions, two heterosexual and one slash. And there was nothing to choose among them on how they operated. Each was passionately convinced its ship was the only way the show could go and the other ships were oppressive bogus poorly written travesties.
It was the early days of twitter and some of the show’s creative team had accounts and interacted with fans. And it was a disaster in both discourse terms and for the show.
The writers and producers on twitter were bombarded with increasingly nasty messages from whatever shipper faction felt the last episode had not pushed their ship forward. Fans did thinks like record videos hanging burning effigies of members of the creative team while uttering threats. Just nasty and over the top.
And the creative team responded by getting emotional and defensive, interacting personally with fans who were operating on emotion, not logic, and those interactions simply made everyone involved more emotional. One writer left the show because she was so angry that no matter what she wrote, the only response she got on twitter was some version of: “Why didn’t you push my ship forward?” She felt her writing was trivialized and unappreciated. She was one of the best writers and not one of the ship factions was happy when she left.
In terms of the show, TPTB decided the way to go was to appease all ship factions so as to not lose any fans. So they threw bones to all of them in various episodes. One week, one ship, the next week, the next ship and so on. The result was the development of these relationships made little story sense. There became increasingly less of a feeling of an organic well told story. And no ship factions were happy.
When the show finally committed to a story with a ship, the lack of organic development undermined the arc. The ship factions at that time were so entrenched in their various corners, the fans of the other two ships hated the story on principle. But even the shippers who “won” hated the way the actual story was told. No one won. Not the shippers and not the show.
All of this is to say that there needs to be a divide between the creators and the fans because we have different jobs. Fans can absolutely create and we all do every time we watch the show. We fill the gaps with our personal experience and make the show our own. Some of us take that experience and make something further with it that resonates. And that’s what art is for.
But if we then demand the show’s creators validate our views in the show, not only is that impossible because there are many viewpoints, it also undermines the integrity of their own story telling. And once that’s gone, the energy goes out of all the wonderful creativity in the fandom, too. It’s a lose/lose situation.
Like I said, I don’t ship on Supernatural (I had one on House, but not one I was prepared to sink with), but I’ve had lots of discussions with fans of all persuasions and I find that as long as everyone is civil, I love the chance to discuss this show from any perspective. I hate to see the splitting into various factions and the spamming of TPTB and the use of threats to try and force a particular storyline. If the writers aren’t going to organically take the story to a particular place, taking it there for fanservice won’t be satisfying for anyone.
I wish the writers would get off twitter, so that divide is easier to maintain. But if they are accessible, we need to think about how we interact with them, because if they put too much energy into placating us instead of figuring out their story, no one wins.
[quote]
All of this is to say that there needs to be a divide between the creators and the fans because we have different jobs. Fans can absolutely create and we all do every time we watch the show. We fill the gaps with our personal experience and make the show our own. Some of us take that experience and make something further with it that resonates. And that’s what art is for.
But if we then demand the show’s creators validate our views in the show, not only is that impossible because there are many viewpoints, it also undermines the integrity of their own story telling. And once that’s gone, the energy goes out of all the wonderful creativity in the fandom, too. It’s a lose/lose situation.
[/quote]
THIS. So much.
[quote][quote]
All of this is to say that there needs to be a divide between the creators and the fans because we have different jobs. Fans can absolutely create and we all do every time we watch the show. We fill the gaps with our personal experience and make the show our own. Some of us take that experience and make something further with it that resonates. And that’s what art is for.
But if we then demand the show’s creators validate our views in the show, not only is that impossible because there are many viewpoints, it also undermines the integrity of their own story telling. And once that’s gone, the energy goes out of all the wonderful creativity in the fandom, too. It’s a lose/lose situation.
[/quote]
THIS. So much.[/quote]
GORGEOUS. Well said.
[quote]if we then demand the show’s creators validate our views in the show, not only is that impossible because there are many viewpoints, it also undermines the integrity of their own story telling.[/quote]
This should also apply to the fans who continuously tweet to the writers asking for Castiel to be written out and for the show to be just Sam and Dean. That isn’t what the show is anymore.
It isn’t just fans who want Destiel to be canon who are making demands and at least we aren’t tweeting hate and demanding that Misha be fired. Tweeting to ask for a ship to be made canon is the least of what goes on on the writer twitters.
So I’ve read the original post by Bardicvoice and the comments that followed. Her clarification post and their follow ups and I’m actually just shaking my head at the whole thing.
Shipping if a fact in fandom. They go hand and hand. You really can’t have one without the other (for better or worse). There’s really nothing wrong with shipping AS LONG as it’s kept in fandom where it belongs. I don’t see the Destiel but I’ve had discussions with Destiel fans and they’ve been civil and although we didn’t change each others minds we still left the conversations friends.
Frankly, I didn’t see Mary at any time mention D/C fans when referring to bad behavior. So if you are assuming that she’s referring to that section of the fandom then maybe you should wonder why?
I myself made a comment to a member of the crew (a non-writer/producer) after he made a short comment which one faction of the fandom didn’t like. I told him that he shouldn’t try to talk someone out of what they see because they will see what they see. True? I also gave him a warning that “some” fans (some meaning exactly that, some not all fans) had been harassing creative team members.
Within an hour my whole 2 comments were screencaped and I was labeled a “hater”. That is the state of our fandom at this time. Sad really. When I confronted a person on Twitter that referred to me a s a hater and I explained that actually I like the character of Cas and that I was simply state two facts. The response I got was telling:
“You may not be a hater, but your comment (framed as many hater comments often are) just looks bad without context. This fandom will automatically jump on anyone with a slightly rained comment because we’re programmed to. You know this fandom is trigger happy. So, don’t blame me. I’m not the only one. Sometimes, one tweet (out of context) is all it takes.”
Really? Don’t blame me, that’s how the fandom is. This seems like she and a great majority of the fans are simply throwing up their hands and saying, well if you can’t beat them then I’ll join them mentality. Maturity is what is desperately needed in the fandom.
I know there are the people that say it’s not just shipping. I see it in the story they are just queerbaiting and afraid. Really? And you’re so certain why? Because YOU see it? Well I don’t see it. So we’re at and impasse because we’re both watching the same show and seeing two completely different things. So obviously it’s not that cut and dry.
Let’s assume you write fanfiction. (I do in another fandom). You post a few chapters. It’s your baby. You’ve put in countless hours working out the plot, growing the characters and writing your little fingers off. Suddenly in the comments a reader(s) comments how they see something that they identify with in your story (whether actually there or not) that calls to them. Now each time you post a chapter this commenter starts to demand that you finish YOUR story the way THEY want it. Is that acceptable? No. Why? Because as a reader has chosen to read my story and agreed to go on the ride that I am telling.
Okay, I’ve said my piece and you know what, it’s still not going to change anything because everything is so polarized in the fandom. I’ll watch the show until it’s not the show I want to watch any longer. I suggest if it’s not the show you want then stop watching and stop trying to make everyone else miserable along the way. JMO
[quote][quote]if we then demand the show’s creators validate our views in the show, not only is that impossible because there are many viewpoints, it also undermines the integrity of their own story telling.[/quote]
This should also apply to the fans who continuously tweet to the writers asking for Castiel to be written out and for the show to be just Sam and Dean. That isn’t what the show is anymore.
It isn’t just fans who want Destiel to be canon who are making demands and at least we aren’t tweeting hate and demanding that Misha be fired. Tweeting to ask for a ship to be made canon is the least of what goes on on the writer twitters.[/quote]
Firstly, Gerry didn’t single out any particular camp, simply cited unpleasant behavior. And secondly, I’d be very wary of speaking for everyone. “We aren’t tweeting hate?” Who is this ‘we’? I think it’s fair to say there’s been bad behavior all ’round, and WE (as in all of fandom) need to be more civil to one another and stop pointing fingers.
Let’s support our show! Let’s support their ability to give us an entertaining product and tell the story they want to tell! There’s an old saying: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I like honey, personally!
[quote][quote]if we then demand the show’s creators validate our views in the show, not only is that impossible because there are many viewpoints, it also undermines the integrity of their own story telling.[/quote]
This should also apply to the fans who continuously tweet to the writers asking for Castiel to be written out and for the show to be just Sam and Dean. That isn’t what the show is anymore.
It isn’t just fans who want Destiel to be canon who are making demands and at least we aren’t tweeting hate and demanding that Misha be fired. Tweeting to ask for a ship to be made canon is the least of what goes on on the writer twitters.[/quote]
You seem to need to hear that Bardicvoice’s article doesn’t only apply to Destiel fans.
OK
It DOESN”T only apply to Destiel fans.
And she never at any point separated Destiel fans as being the sole problem here. With respect you might consider re-reading without it feeling defensive about your personal ship?
Her article applies to everyone who is trying to get their storyline agenda validated by being pushy, repetitive and obnoxious to the writers, directors and actors on the show.
I can’t speak for the thinking of everyone who agrees with her but for me anyone who does the above, on any show, for any agenda, is showing a lack of respect for the artistic abilities of an entire group of people.
You want the story to go a different way? Write fanfic. Nobody is stopping you. I have read a lot of excellent SPN fanfic, (especially compared to the writing for many other shows) honestly some of these people should be writing original stuff and getting it published. But I am really glad in many cases that it isn’t canon in the show (and then sometimes they fill a hole in the tv story in a way which is really great,)
Writing a story by asking what an online community of viewers wants gives you ‘Snakes on a Plane’. Writing it yourself may result in ‘Lord of the Rings’ (to pick the first book that comes to mind). Which one is going to be remembered with any respect 100 years from now?
So let the writers write – if they want to know what we think they can come onto these sorts of sites and see what we are discussing and what is working / not working for the online community. But even there we have to remember that the vast majority of viewers are not in online communities and that while your point of view (whatever it is) may seem to be shared by the majority of people you interact with, that doesn’t necessarily make it a majority view.
Gerry, MDfawn, quickreaver, and eilf, I agree with all your posts. The shipping isn’t the really problem. It is the actions taken by SOME shippers or by any group using bullying techniques in order to push their desires for the show.
I read the article. Then read the comments. Then had to re-read the article because I thought I had missed a paragraph. Turns out, I didn’t.
I didn’t see a specific “faction” being singled out in the article, I saw a negative type of behavior being singled out — the kind that involves being pushy/accusatory/derogatory/feuding/bashing/bullying/threatening/or otherwise harassing people (both other fans and, especially, people who work on the show).
Here’s my two-cents:
Being fans of the show “in general” is our common ground.
All fans are equal. But equal does not mean identical. We were unique individuals before we ever watched our first episode, and nine seasons later we remain unique individuals. We may not be the exact SAME unique individual we were before we started watching, but we are still unique. We don’t all get the exact same enjoyment from each character, each storyline, each episode, etc (or displeasure, as the case may be). And we don’t all have the exact same interpretation when it comes to every character behavior, line of dialogue, etc. And we never will. And that is fine, normal, and even expected.
Bottom line – we may all be watching the same show, but we are not all experiencing it in the exact same way. And there IS no right or wrong way. Also, there is no way that the Show can please all of the fans all of the time. It’s impossible.
We each choose for ourselves the way(s) in which we will participate in fandom (or even if we’re going to participate at all). Fans can create (and share) all the “stuff” that they are inspired by the Show to make (and there’s a lot of it) … possibly with far fewer limitations than the people actually making the Show. And all those ideas for changing the show belong *here* too. Enjoy it. Revel in it. Let imaginations run amok. There is no right or wrong way to participate. (Well, as long it doesn’t involve negative behaviors .. and isn’t illegal 😉 )
We also each choose for ourselves how we will treat others in the fandom, and how we will treat the people who work on/for the show. And I can say with absolute certainty that ARE right ways and wrong ways. There are lines that should not be crossed. The negative behaviors that I listed above (which doesn’t include all possibilities) are wrong ways. And they cross lines. [We are each responsible for our own “behavioral” choices, and what results from them.]
Lastly: Fandom WATCHES the Show. Fandom does NOT create the Show. The unique individuals (flesh-and-blood human beings with real feelings, btw) working on the Show are the ones who, with great care, collaborate with each other to create it. It’s their job. They were CHOSEN for it. They take it seriously. They’re dedicated to it. They work hard on it. They sacrifice for it. They strive to make the best show that they can make – every time.
They continue to have my loyalty, respect, and appreciation.
Wow! I meant to spend my couple free hours reading fanfic because, as someone said, we have some awesome writers in this fandom. Instead, I spent my time reading both shipping articles and all the comments. Again, wow! I don’t usually comment because most of you who do comment are excellent writers yourselves (as a reading of all the comments once again shows!), which is very intimidating! I’m commenting now because of that very thing! This fandom has many many bright, passionate, courageous, creative, etc etc, people in it! I am amazed how many of these same bright, etc, people have lost the FUN (well, fun along with a lot of heart ache!) in loving the Show! Or at least that’s how it seems to me.
I too have seen the hate and bullying on twitter and other social media, and it breaks my heart. Where did we lose sight of, IMO, what the basic message of the Show is? Caring for one another! Fighting for each other! Protecting each other! Saving people…….
The two articles were great and I agreed with most that was written. I enjoy reading fanfic of all kinds and am a both brothers kind of gal, so I don’t have a bias against any group! I wish we could call a redo, especially the last several months.
WE ALL NEED TO LIGHTEN UP!!!!! That was my grandma voice, said firmly with love!!
Hi Mary. I’m a little late in responding, and I haven’t read any other comments on this article, but I wanted to put my two cents in as well.
I’m not a shipper myself, so I certainly understand where you’re coming from here, even though I would never consider being deriding of or disrespectful to anyone who views things differently than the way I do. To be truthful, I can understand in many ways, intellectually, why any kind of relationship in which there is some kind of deep connection, or that involves intense emotions seems to very often be seen as a characteristic of, or forbear to, a romantic/sexual attraction, though I hardly ever subscribe to those views myself. Not necessarily because I have anything against them, but because they simply hardly ever occur to me. I’ve actually found, especially lately, that I value far more relationships that are represented platonically, but in such a way that the intensity of love between these characters can be expressed in a similar magnitude to the kind of classic Romeo and Juliet-esque romance, which often make some kind of point about the kinds of lengths a person might go to for the sake of the safety and well-being of their partner/lover. In some ways, I feel like that kind of love, especially in a romantic sense, has been portrayed so often and in some many forms (or I’m just not watching the right stuff), that I find it refreshing to be able to partake in stories where the love for your family, or friends, or friends you love like family can be shown to be just as powerful as the love you might share with someone whom you love romantically. I firmly believe both romantic and platonic love can be just as powerful as each other, but it’s more a case that you love different people in different ways. Yes, there’s always that distinction of having the added layer of the vulnerability of becoming romantically intimate with another person, but I don’t believe that necessarily has to happen for someone to have any kind of true, deep, meaningful bond with another person.
If I may take an example from another fandom, one day while off sick from work, I got into watching the now off-air BBC series, Merlin, which, for any who don’t know it, is a Smallville-style retelling of Arthurian legend. It isn’t what I’d call a masterpiece of TV, but as I was watching, I realised that much of the heart of the show was revolved around the relationship between the main characters Arthur and Merlin, who despite initially despising each other, eventually grew to form an odd sort of friendship. So when I went online to find out more about the show, I wasn’t entirely surprised to find a rather large community of people who shipped the main characters. I never really got it, because I always thought the relationship between the two was more powerful in that they had no romantic feelings towards one another, yet were able to form this bond that not only defied their initial dislike for one another, but social classes as well (Arthur was a Prince and Merlin a servant with a hidden magical ability) as per the norms of the time-period in which the series is set. Towards the end of series, I at least, didn’t doubt that either man would die for the other should the occasion arise, not just because they were inextricably linked by a greater shared destiny between them, but because they genuinely cared for one another.
That to me, right now is what I find the most engaging, say the notion that two brothers who fight against the forces of evil, or two young men who formed a friendship that defied expectation can have just as powerful a bond as any couple who engages in a romantic relationship.
So while, I personally, have no objections to any kind of ship and have even read many wonderful stories written by fans of particular ship, I always find just recently that I return to the platonic relationships in the end, but that’s okay, because we’re all allowed our own little corners of the world (or a particular fandom, at least). 😆
[quote]Here’s the elephant in the room. The two most vocal ‘ships on Supernatural are homoerotic ones: the Wincest of Dean/Sam and the Destiel of Dean/Cas. Advocates for the ‘ships argue that subtext supports them and explicit recognition – well, of Dean/Cas anyway, since many people still draw the line at incest – would benefit the LGBT community by putting a strong positive relationship in the public eye. Non-shippers like me who note that Sam and Dean have repeatedly self-identified as heterosexual males and that angels were represented as asexual beings, making same-sex relationships for them inconsistent with what they’ve professed, are met with the accusation of being blind, insensitive, or anti-gay. It’s a no-win situation.[/quote]
No, the real elephant in the room is what if Castiel had stayed in the body of Jimmy Novak’s daughter?
Yep, imagine EVERYTHING else from the last few seasons exactly the same, but with the body of a preteen girl standing in for Misha Collins.
That’s why I generally find any efforts to label a relationship with something that can body hop and/or shapeshift as “gay/straight/whatever” really weird.
Consider for instance the example Chuck brings up around the 2:30 mark in this review:
http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d544.php
Involving the sentient plant. (though I recommend all the reviews because sfdebris is awesome) And consider that with someone like Castiel.
Why do other beings have to love the way WE would understand it? In the end we just end up imposing standards on someone else again.
…Though now that Castiel is mortal, there’s somewhat more justification with maybe him experimenting with his body now.
Some of the shippers are really just crazy. After reading a bunch of stuff on Twitter and Tumblr, I’ve come to realize the show actually downplayed the crazy when it came to Becky Rosen. The reality of it is so much more messed up. And frankly fairly embarrassing as a fan of Supernatural.
I…. don’t agree. While I do understand the frustration of “shipping wars”, I enjoy shipping. I think partially, shipping isn’t only wanting the characters to be together, but also the community around it. For example, I ship Destiel, but I don’t force it upon people. I might disagree with them, but I don’t shove it down their throats with a cry of, “It’s TRUE LOVE!”
I do agree that it’s unfair for people to insist that a male and female can’t work together, or be genuine friends unless they frick frack. Love is definitely not sex misspelled. But at the same time, I feel as if you are focusing too much on that part of the shipping. Sure, it’s a big part. I would know. But there is also, depending on what you loom for, that same tone of love and caring.
Sex is not love, but I think it is a more physical way to show the emotions you already have, or at least, that you think certain characters have. I almost never read smut just because of the sex, but also because the love is there, clear as day.
It’s just my opinion of course, if you think I”m completely wrong then that’s fine, but I think that sometimes people forget about the other parts of a ship.