IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM YOUR ADMINS! – New Commenting Policy
When the Winchester Family Business was first founded back in 2009, our mission was to create an environment where open discussion was allowed, but it would be a safe haven for all that wanted to post. At the time, season four, the fan environment was a little different. There wasn’t as much fan division, and the conversations were usually a bit more constructive and positive.
Now that Supernatural is in season 8 (a feat we NEVER would have predicted back then), the times have changed. There’s more unhappiness in the fandom. There are many long standing frustrations with some Supernatural fans that commonly occur with long running TV shows. After all, expectations run very high after the quality of entertainment we’ve gotten in seven seasons.
However, it’s not all unhappiness. There are still many happy fans out there too. These fans want to have their say too. Considering our polls often run on the high end of positive as opposed to negative and Supernatural’s ratings continue to be strong, we have evidence the majority are happy fans.
Unfortunately, fans venting their displeasure over character development and story lines during the run of the entire series are dominating every discussion thread now, causing most discussions to veer off topic. They’re also not very enjoyable for an average fan to read, especially if the review or article in question is a positive one. It’s hurting the level of discussion that we’ve become known for, and it’s ruining that “safe haven†environment we’ve been committed to providing since our beginning.
In order for us to restore the original spirit of discussions on this website, new controls are being put in place in moderating comments.
We are introducing today regular “Let’s Discuss†topics. These topics will be easily visible on our front page, and eventually on a dedicated “Let’s Discuss†page. These discussions will be free form and only subject to moderating under our core set of rules (Be nice, show respect, no Sam vs. Dean, Jared vs. Jensen, “If you don’t like it, don’t watch ). Rules of the site, which have been in place since December 2010 (except for two additions), are clearly spelled out here:
We want all our readers to feel comfortable posting a comment, and we want our writers to feel comfortable analyzing what they watch without fear of negativity from commenters. All your opinions are welcome, but we need to keep articles and reviews on task and focused on the analysis part. If you’re unhappy about something within the episode, it’s fine to say that in a review comment. But prolonged comments that are voicing displeasure about a character or the series in general should go into a Let’s Discuss area.
By making people aware what’s on topic and what’s not, the proper comments will eventually end up in the appropriate place and our discussions will be less repetitive and more enjoyable for everyone.
We assure that anyone who is found commenting off topic will not be warned, reprimanded, banned, whatever. It’s still a valid opinion. We will just be moving any off topic post to the appropriate place. Any moved comment will come with a note, “Moved to xxx article discussion.â€
If there is a topic that you want open for discussion in the Let’s Discuss area, send your topic suggestion through the “Contact Us†page. It will be looked at by an administrator and opened if deemed appropriate.
We also ask for everyone’s patience, because we’re sure this process will be confusing over the next few weeks and beyond. Again, the goal here is to streamline our discussions and make them more enjoyable for everyone to read and comment, not to punish or censor.
This new policy will only kick in with articles going forward. We will not edit or move any comments in already published articles.
Thanks in advance for everyone’s cooperation in this matter, and feel free to give us feedback or suggestions through comments below or the “Contact Us†section.
Sincerely,
Alice, Ardeospina, and sweetondean
I’ve posted on a forum that had a pretty strict policy of moderating comments that were off topic. People who posted there came to learn the rules and understood when their hands got slapped.
I didn’t read all of the reviews here from this latest episode, but the few I did read all posed thoughts and theories as to Sam’s behavior. If the reviewer introduces the subject, people should be able to post alternative thoughts on the subject, even if those thoughts are negative or repetitive.
But then if the reviewers stay clear of the subject of Sam because they don’t want to hear the negative responses, then you’ll have all reviews focusing only on Dean.
I can’t speak about other forums, but we aren’t that strict here. Our goal is to make sure people don’t stray too far off topic. Absolutely, if the author analyzes any character, that character is ripe for discussion. Or any subject the author introduces.
However, we have too large a problem these days of the same issues and complaints being rehashed in every thread over and over again. For example, I know people are upset that the writers have gone with Sam didn’t look for Dean during that year apart. That is a controversial creative choice and protests should be mentioned. However, come episode 5, and that’s still all we’re hearing, it’s a horse that’s been beat to death. Until new information is revealed, it’s canon and the conversation needs to move forward.
We did these policy changes because I’ve gotten complaints, Ardeospina has gotten complaints, sweetondean has gotten complaints, and the earful I got from people at ChiCon was the last straw. We need to go back to the way we started, lively, civil, and discussions where anyone can comment and not be jumped on because one or two words were misconstrued.
For the truly frustrated, we don’t want to shut them out either. Hopefully the “Let’s Discuss” threads will work. If not, we’ll try something else. We have to try something though.
Just to explain a bit – for those of us that are frustrated w/Carver’s choice for Sam, that frustration isn’t limited to the premiere; it’s bleeding into the entire season .
For example, in this past episode, we got all these FBs about Sam’s mundane, boring life w/Amelia when many of us who are frustrated would have preferred more insight into Sam’s decisions after Dean vanished.
It’s not easy for some of us to just “get over it.” That’s all.
Hey, I do understand! I very much do. I share several frustrations. And what you said about “many of us who are frustrated would have preferred more insight into Sam’s decisions” is a perfect statement of constructive feedback. That is most certainly allowed in response to a review, especially if Sam’s state of mind is mentioned (hard not to when there are flashbacks).
It’s when the same point gets repeated constantly and anyone who voices objection gets shouted down for their opinion, that’s the sort of thing we’re going to watch for. It’s happening often enough where people don’t want to post here anymore. We invite all opinions here.
First let me say that there have been times that I’ve noticed the comments getting very off topic. An example that comes to mind was SweetonDean’s article listing 10 reasons why she was looking forward to the return of Supernatural. At some point the discussion took a turn – no several turns – and went on for weeks about topics that had nothing to do with anything she had written in the article.
But with that said, I agree with lala2 below, in that a lot of this discussion about Sam’s decisions this season [b]are[/b] on topic because the trend of writing Sam in a certain controversial way didn’t end with the premiere. Picking on SweetonDean’s articles again, I just took a quick count, and she wrote eight paragraphs in her review talking about Sam, one on Amelia, five on the brother relationship, and one on fan reaction about Sam.
Of the responses she got, about six were probably negative about the Sam writing, but all six were in direct response to her comments. According to my count, three were about the brother relationship, again in direct response to her comments. About a dozen were comments in direct response to things other commenters had said. And about 30 were people agreeing with her or giving her positive feedback. (There were also several others that I didn’t count because they weren’t relevant to this discussion.)
There were several “negative” Sam comments (and by that I mean about the writing, not being negative about Sam), but none were off topic. Would those get moved? Would comments criticizing Sera’s writing of Dean also get moved, because even though that’s not the flavor of the month, that was a pretty repetitive discussion in the past few years.
I guess I’m looking for clarification of the rules. Personally I try not to be too repetitive or stray too far off topic, but I know the subject of the writing of Sam will come up again in future episodes, and I don’t want to feel like I have to sensor my opinions in giving feedback to an episode.
For the record, the comments on sweetondean’s latest review have been fine. That actually worked out very well. Her 10 Reasons article is definitely a perfect example of the discussion going out of control.
We’re not trying to dismiss negative comments. It’s when the discussion in general veers and gets out of control. Look at my review, or the Let’s Speculate article. Those are far more murky.
Granted, sometimes I do negative reviews. In that case, I’m sure I’ll attract those agreeing and listing reasons why they’re upset. When the tone of the article is negative, the comments very likely are going to be that way too. That’s okay and they will be allowed. Again, if the negativity becomes too overwhelming, we may have to step in.
Clarification is going to be very hard and I do admit, we’re going to play this by ear. Some articles have different circumstances than others. That’s why I said, we aren’t going to reprimand, warn or punish. But if the discussion veers away from the original spirit of the article, that’s when we’re going to have to step in.
This explanation helps. One more question, would the “Let’s speculate” thread be the place we can say what we really feel about the episode if we don’t have the same issues about the episode as the other reviewers?
EDIT: Nevermind. I just saw your response to Lala2 on the same question.
I just asked the same question, cd28! I think the “Let’s Speculate” threads will be the only places for less than positive reviews b/c most of the reviewers here love every episode so “negative” comments wouldn’t go with the intent of the articles.
I’ve found the vast majority of articles here to be positive so if I have a less than positive feeling on an episode, it seems like it would be best to not comment in those reviews. I think the “Let’s Speculate” threads make the most sense since they are neither positive or negative.
These 2 comments above, cd28 and lala2, show the problem I have with ‘Let’s discuss’ threads. If they don’t post in the review threads when they have differing opinions, then those reviews maintain one decided slant, and we miss out on so much more insight.
I sure hope people who feel differently don’t stop commenting within the review. I really like the different veiwpoints.
I do agree. I want differing viewpoints too. We’re just going to have to see how it goes, but everyone is encouraged to post in a review thread.
My interpretation of what you said earlier (when we were talking about the responses to the Sweetondean review) was that you can respond with a different opinion if the topic is being discussed, but you don’t want the conversation heading in an unrelated direction. Is that correct?
Yes. Also, we are trying to discourage “aggressive” responses to posts, which usually doesn’t happen too often, but does on occasion. Those usually get edited though, unless they don’t violate our rules. Like I said, we’re going to be playing this by ear at first.
Ok . . . I’m confused. I thought you wanted the spirit of the article to be supported by the comments (i.e., positive article meets equally positive comments). Is that not true?
I have no problem with keeping my comments (which aren’t likely to be seen as positive) to the Sam thread or the general speculative thread.
Thanks. As one of the people who is unhappy with parts of the story, I will appreciate having a place to vent, while not infringing on the people who are not having problems. I think this is a good way to handle the issue.
It’s a good idea. I’m probably one that has a tendency to go off-topic and repeat my self. What can I say my mind moves in non sequitur ways. 2 + 2 = the cat is red. So I’ll try to be good but totally won’t be offended if you need to move my comments at some point.
Anything that keeps the world a more pleasant place while allowing me to ramble and rant has to be good.
2+2= the cat is red. LOL! My new favorite line! Thanks Kelly.
Oh YAY! I’m glad I could make someone have a laugh today.
My goodness, that seems like it will be a lot of work for the three of you. I guess I haven’t been paying attention — I didn’t realize that the commenting was getting to be a problem.
So should discussion of Sam in the new episodes be kept to the “Let’s Discuss” thread?
Extensive discussion will be better served there, yes. Any initial opinion and maybe a follow up statement or two in the review threads is more than welcome.
So we are welcome to discuss Dean, Garth, and other aspects of the episode in the reviews this coming week, but anything more than a brief comment on Sam has to go in another section? We know that next episode is going to explicitly bring up Sam not looking for Dean, how can that POSSIBLY be off topic for discussion of the episode?
I’m sorry, but I think it is outrageous that this rule is being brazenly targeted at one particular opinion and one particular topic.
Hi, etheldred.
To clarify, a Sam “Let’s Discuss” isn’t the only area we’ll have open. We just started with that first because we felt that was the character who warranted the first post. We are going to open “Let’s Discuss” topics for other characters, but we do have other things we need to attend to, so we appreciate your patience in this matter! We’re not trying to target one viewpoint or one particular topic.
Hmmm. I recognize there has been a definite slant to the comments this season, and a need to do something. I’m on the fence right now about ‘Let’s discuss’ threads, since I’ve seen other forums where this sort of thing really regiments and stifles conversation.
I guess I’ll wait and see how this goes.
Appreciate the moderators taking a stab at maintaining the site as a friendly and considerate place. Kudos.
Hi Alice, I have been coming on this site for a few months now and it genuinely is the first place where I haven’t been scared off by aggressive and rude replies within a few comments. Thank you, who run the site, for making such a welcoming space for us to chat. Also thanks to everyone for being so friendly, nice and entertaining!
I have a suggestion – I posted something the other day I was a bit unsure of (it was a clip from another article and I was not sure if it was ‘fair use’) I would have loved to be sure that it wouldn’t cause any problems and I was going to ask if the site has rules as they are not easy to find but you beat me to it with this thread.
Anyway my suggestion is would you consider putting a link for ‘The Rules’ (which all seem very fair to me) and possibly for an FAQ thread (where we can ask questions) on the front page?
EDIT: LOL apologies for all the ‘quotey fingers’ above. And here.
Great suggestion. I do have a thread for questions and suggestions, but it’s buried in our Article Archives menu. I’ll find a good spot for those links. I am looking to repurpose a square at the bottom. That would be a great place to do that.
Thank you Alice, I love coming here and reading the reviews, agreeing or not, and also I like to read the comments, from the past two or three weeks I have been avoiding doing that, because – and this is my opinion – some people were only complaining about the story – or the lack the Sam story… and it was getting on my nerves, seriously… Thank you guys again…
I find this decision really troubling. I agree with others that the topics people have issues with are topics that are arising out of the episodes and reviews, and that the outcome of this will be cordoning off discussion of Sam and his storyline from general episode discussion.
I’ve had some good conversations here, but I don’t think I will continue to post here under this system.
You say this decision is intended to make this a welcoming space for everyone, but it is hard not to see this policy as saying that this is a welcoming space for everyone, but some opinions are more welcome than others.
I’m thinking the same thing. I just went and skimmed the comments from most of the reviews after this past episode, and most were positive or at least neutral. Some of the reviews had almost exclusively positive comments, which is actually odd if you think about it, considering how much friction was in the episode itself.
I specifically looked at the two threads Alice had mentioned (her review and the Let’s Speculate) and still didn’t see anything too far off topic. The comments on her article were almost all related to the discussion of the past episode (and yes, Sam’s flashbacks, Amelia, and his relationship with Dean were part of that episode so were fair discussion topics). The Let’s Speculate thread got diverted a little toward being critical of the season as a whole, but I didn’t see that as inappropriate conversation. Those broader discussions originated from comments about the recent episode.
I also don’t see a lot of instances (or to be more precise, I can’t think of [i]any[/i] instances) where people are posting positive comments and getting shouted down for it. I think sometimes (especially around the Sam looking for Dean issue), people post arguments with a lot of holes or controversial statements in them, and it’s human nature to respond by pointing out the holes or differences in opinion. The conversations though, for the most part, stay polite, and that type of exchange of ideas is the point of discussion. The only other instances I have seen where it’s gotten more confrontational are responses to a comment by a poster that is dismissive of other people’s comments or to a comment that is inflammatory to one of the characters. TBH, I’m wondering if the real issue behind the complaints is that Dean fans who are happy about Dean’s storyline this season are frustrated because the discussion has leaned heavier on Sam than Dean.
I’m inclined too to stop reading the reviews and commenting too if an open discussion isn’t encouraged.
Here is my fears being realized. I really enjoy your comments, etheldred, and I really hope you reconsider and keep posting here.
I must admit, reading comments on several threads this morning, I am very unsure about whether my comments would be welcome, and will therefore stay back for now to see how this goes. I hope the site returns to the ‘happy place’ you seem to want.
I am not happy with censoring, except as has been done in the past when things have gotten disrespectful.
I appreciate that the moderators have been getting complaints, and I appreciate the desire to do something here, but the problem really all goes back to the showwriters, and what they have shown us to date. You can’t really edit their writing. :sigh:
I hope you do continue to post. I like hearing your opinions as well as other people’s. I will admit that when Elle’s review went up today, I made a few comments then stated I would take the rest to the Sam thread. It’s going to be a pain, but I don’t want my negativity to impact other posters enjoyment of the show. I don’t think I have ever dismissed other people’s opinions, just stated my own. But I can see that some people may see my negative feelings about how the show is handling Sam as repetitive.
What would you think of a newspaper that allowed positive comments to its editorials in the regular letters section, on the same page as the editorials themselves, but relegated letters that disagreed to a separate section of the paper? I note that Alice reserves her right to write negative reviews, and says that in that case negativity in the comments would be acceptable. So, negativity is only against the rules when it’s a dissenting opinion? Will positive comments on negative reviews also wind up in exile? I would object to that as well.
I’m willing to believe that this decision is well meaning, though I think it is misguided, but I find it ethically extremely dubious, and I don’t see any way it can operate without stifling free discussion.
I think a policy enforcing staying on topic would help those occasional runaway threads, but I don’t think you can have rules that are based on the nature of the opinions without introducing a bias to the website.
Another possible solution would be requiring the reviewers to split their reviews into parts – one review focusing on Dean’s story and one review focusing on Sam’s story. That way everyone would be clear on which reviews to post on. (yes, I’m being a little flippant in my second comment.)
You know, this is all kind of an overreaction without trying out the system or giving something a chance.
Did you know that other sites like The Huffington Post moderate all comments? They have to go through approval before being posted. I don’t know all what gets weeded out, but they don’t let their threads run amuck. There’s bias at every website. I think we’ve been very fair and will continue to work on that philosophy.
What am I supposed to say to the people who have registered numerous complaints that thanks to a handful of people on this site, our comments are unreadable? I have to do something. No, I’m not requiring the authors to change. What they produce is just fine.
Please give it a try.
I’ve worked in journalism and have been a web editor. I’ve sorted through letters to the editor, looking at issues like libel and relevance. But our rules were never about positivity vs. negativity, or slanting discussion toward a certain opinion.
With all due respect, I don’t think this is an overreaction. I think there are other ways you could deal with this – starting by taking a close look at what the real problems are and dealing with those. Is it the repetitiveness, is it off-topic discussion, is it disrespectful comments? Or do you want a site with no negativity allowed? It’s within your rights as a webmaster if you want to accept only positive comments, but your site won’t have very interesting discussions.
Where in the world did I say we’re only accepting positive comments??? I can tell you one thing, these discussions haven’t been interesting lately. They’ve been venting sessions. I’m alright with that, but not when its on a glowing review about the episode. We still want to give people a chance to vent though, so now there’s a section for that.
I’m getting very tired of trying to explain this. Fight it all you want, but so far I’ve got a ton of messages in support over this. It sounds like at risk of pissing off a few, I’m pleasing the many. I’ll take that chance.
Hi Alice, I get where you are coming from and what I see about your idea is not to stifle conversation but to allow it to occur without getting derailed.
In all the time I have been following this site I have only seen one comment moderated and it was clear why it had been moderated. Everyone let’s give this idea a chance?
Thats fair enough Alice like I said I appreciate your position. The many can have their way power in numbers is a strong thing.
I can choose to ignore their comments as much has they can complain . I dont buy negative comments make the comments sections unreadable to them ( esp as those comments are honest and intelligent as to why that posters feels that way not rambling thoughts ) they are all valid views and repetitive can apply to positive as well . It isnt easy I know and like I said I am not sure it will work but good luck.
Maybe it would help clarify things if you pointed out comments that would have gotten moved under the new policy? You mentioned the comments to your review and to the Let’s Speculate thread as examples, but as I posted above, I read through them and I didn’t see comments that were off-topic or disrespectful, so I’m left assuming that you mean most comments that negatively discuss the writing of Sam.
I think the main point is negative comments on the show, in general, would not be appreciated in the review articles unless that article was negative about the show as well.
In my experience here, 99% of the articles are glowing and positive about [b][u]every single episode[/u][/b]. On the very [i]rare [/i] occasion, Alice might post a “negative” review of an episode.
What I’m saying is there will never be a chance to pose a “negative” opinion on an episode in a review b/c all the reviewers love all the episodes. It seems like Alice wants only equally glowing/positive comments in the comment section of reviews that were postive/glowing.
That’s fine w/me. Do I feel I’m being censored? Sure, but it ain’t my website. I’ll happily isolate myself to the “negative corner” but will only stay if others participate.
Basically, I plan to restrict myself to the Sam thread where it seems like it’s okay to discuss anything there. I’m not even going to touch the “Let’s Speculate” thread or any of the review threads. I think that’s what you guys should do too. But if the discussion is dead b/c no one w/a dissenting opinion is posting here anymore, I’ll just find somewhere else to talk about the show.
[quote]
I plan to restrict myself to the Sam thread where it seems like it’s okay to discuss anything there. .[/quote]
Until I see how this plays out, I’m thinking that’s where I’ll stay, too. At least I know my comments won’t be upsetting anyone there. Hopefully there’ll be some commenters there who both like and dislike the current plots. I do enjoy reading both points of view.
[quote]Another possible solution would be requiring the reviewers to split their reviews into parts – one review focusing on Dean’s story and one review focusing on Sam’s story. That way everyone would be clear on which reviews to post on. (yes, I’m being a little flippant in my second comment.)[/quote]
Better yet, maybe we could petition the showrunners to do the Sam material in a separate mini-episode aired on Thursday mornings! That way there would be no danger of people being tempted to comment on Sam’s storyline in any discussion of the regular episodes! So much less negativity . . .
THIS!!! It’s attitudes like this is the exact reason why we are making changes. That’s just uncalled for and this kind of attitude pisses people off and turns them away from what is supposed to be a level headed site. A majority are happy fans that want to have adult conversations about things.
I’m sorry you’re upset about Sam, but I’ve heard you say it before numerous times. If you want to discuss it in detail, there is a forum now for you. You are allowed to make your opinion known on the episode thread. If you want to vent, go to the Let’s Discuss section.
I’ve discussed many subjects here. My unhappiness about some aspects of the Sam storyline is one of them, but I’ve also talked about parts of the Sam storyline that I’m very much enjoying (the way normal is being treated in the Amelia flashbacks, for instance), about aspects of long term characterization I deeply admire (I love the ambiguity of selfishness and selflessness on this show), and about entirely neutral plot points.
I don’t feel that I can either be a happy fan or have adult conversations about things if those of my comments that are critical of the show are going to be treated differently from those that discuss aspects of the show I admire or enjoy.
That’s why I think you should just keep all your comments about the show to that Sam thread. That’s what I’m going to do.
I’m not surprised by this change b/c any critical opinion is labeled “negative.” I have a problem w/that label.
Honestly, I never found myself commenting in the review articles that often b/c I knew my opinion would probably not be appreciated. LOL 😀 I’ve never felt quite comfortable here leaving a critical opinion of the show.
And so we end up with two different camps, in two different parts of the site, never engaging each other’s opinions? How long before those who are commenting in the Sam section end up complaining if those with more positive views of the Sam storyline join the debate, and we have this whole debacle again in reverse? What becomes of the fact that all of these characters and storylines are intertwined? What do I do about the fact that some of my favorite posters on this site are on the other “side” as far as this divide goes?
I suppose self-segregating has some advantages, but it still seems like a very unsatisfactory solution to me.
Hey, I don’t think it’s satisfactory either, but it seems like it’s what Alice wants. I guess I just see it as her site, her rules.
And I don’t know about you, but I will be happy to post in a spot where I’m not labeled “negative” simply b/c I’m not gushing about every single aspect of the show. I think the discussion in the Sam thread will be open to both positive and negative opinions.
If we make it an open discussion, then I think it will be nice and a safe haven for us!
For the record, this isn’t MY site. I founded it, I built it, I’m the editor-in-chief, but this site belongs to many dedicated people. We have two other admins and ten active writers, not to mention the frequent commenters and lurkers that rely on us for daily entertainment.
It isn’t just visitors that are registering complaints. I’ve got several active writers too who are fed up. That was all the message I needed to do something about it.
We just had another record month. Our visitors are in the hundred thousands now per month. This decision was not made lightly, and was done after conferring with the other admins as to the best course of action. We all have a duty to offer what’s best for our base, aka everyone involved, not just a few commenters.
I could just start banning people, but I don’t want to do that. As I said, we are a place where all opinions are welcome. Intense, long, sometimes off topic discussions though in episode threads, positive or negative, need to find another place.
Perhaps in that case you could have the specific episode review threads, devoted to discussion focused on that individual episode (though I do think it is very hard to discuss the characters without ranging over their arcs both within and between seasons, or to discuss themes such as what makes a monster in Bitten without bringing up the way the theme has been treated throughout canon), and then have a general off topic, how is the season going for you? post in which people could discuss more general issues, regardless of whether those were positive or negative, Sam or Dean related.
Because as it is this feels very specifically targeted at people who are unhappy rather than happy with the show, and at discussions of Sam in particular. A division between general and episode specific would enforce the idea of topicality without giving the sense that specific topics and opinions were being segregated while all other topics and opinions were designated suitable for general discussion.
My bad.
I’m fine posting exclusively (aside from this post) in the Sam thread. It’s not a big deal to me.
I applaud the decision to have come up with a different place to vent other than the regular threads. I’m one of those that will stop reading when it veers off topic. :sigh: Does it make for compelling reading? Absolutely, but it’s also a little frustrating. So, thank you. 🙂
Thank you, Alice. I had decided to read the reviews and make a comment, because I feel that reviewers who take the time and put in the effort deserve feedback for their efforts. But I had also decided not to read any of the comments any more. I knew what they would be and I didn’t want to deal with it any longer. I appreciate that you’re on top of what was a major problem.
But there have been reviews in the past that had dissatisfied Dean fans that were free to air their views. I dont know yet wether I agree with what Alice is doing but do understand her position.
The situation has arose out of the story not people being delibrately negative to upset others. Those who are happy with what is going on are free to feel that way but surely they have no more rights then those having a problem. I am not surprised that what they have done with Sam would arouse the controversy it has and the potential damage to Sam.
All forums will have this situation because there is a diversity of thoughts people shouldnt be made to feel they should just go over to that corner and talk there because it is upsetting us. As I said I appreciate Alice’s position but just not sure wether it will work.
Alice, I would like some clarification on how to handle the next episode. It looks like we will be getting some discussion of the issues between Sam and Dean. They may be handled in a way that satisfies me, but if not can I state that in the episode thread, or do I need to jump to the Sam thread to discuss Sam while discussing Dean in the episode reviews? Can I move both over to the Sam thread or is that reserved solely for opinions on what is happening to Sam?
This is the way I see it. When the next episode happens, by all means, give your initial reaction. Heck, you’re allowed a few follow up posts as well. If the discussion gets too involved about Sam this season, perhaps it’s better to take it to the Sam thread.
The Let’s Discuss threads are free form and going off topic there or having runaway discussions there is okay. So if you want to take the entire discussion to the Sam thread, or open a new Dean one, we can do that. This is highly going to depend on how things progress.
The next episode is our big experiment. I assure no one is going to get in trouble as we try to work things out.
OK, I will participate in this experiment. Here’s how: I will type my reactions, positive and negative, into the comments on reviews, as I have been doing all along. As discussion arises, I will follow up. I will feel exactly as free to discuss Sam as to discuss Dean or Garth or the dog.
If comments of mine are moved to another thread, I will copy them, paste them, and repost them in the original place. I will do this as many times as necessary.
You are, I imagine, able to ban my IP address from commenting, and will be free to do so. You will have to do so. Because I think this policy is injurious and discriminatory, and I will protest and oppose it in any way I can until either it is changed or I am outright excluded from the site. At which point you can rejoice in how much more friendly and welcoming your site is.
I do promise not to personally attack or denigrate other commenters, not to insult the writers, actors, or showrunners (though I may be critical of their work), and to show due respect for the thoughtfulness and good will of people whose opinions may be wildly different from my own. I will support their absolute right to disagree with my comments as often and as lengthily as they wish, to use whatever arguments seem reasonable to them, and to share every public space on the site with me. And, for as long as possible, I will hold onto the hope that the same courtesies will be extended to me as well.
Now you’re just trying to pick a fight. Whatever. We’ll deal with the situation as it happens. Thank you so much for typing up a response about a policy designed to curb poisonous attitudes in episode threads by showing off a poisonous attitude. This is exactly the reason something is being done.
Yes, I am picking a fight, because I think this is something worth fighting about. I’m sorry that you are once again conflating dissenting opinion with poisonous attitudes. I think that ANY opinion becomes poisonous when other opinions are excluded or given unequal voice.
Adding: I realize that I’ve gotten heated, and I do apologize if any of my comments have crossed the line from strongly objecting to this policy to an attack on you personally. As I said in one of my comments above, I am willing to believe that this decision is well meaning, but I find both it and the reasoning behind it extremely disturbing. The fact that a majority may be in favor of it I think irrelevant. Please believe that if this situation were arising out of people unhappy with the season objecting to comments from those happy with it, and a relegation of squeeful comments on a particular topic to their own section, when equally show-relevant topics and different assessments remained in the general reaction spaces, I would think that equally problematic.
[quote]The fact that a majority may be in favor of it I think irrelevant.[/quote]
I think this is a good point. There’s a perception that there are more Dean fans than Sam fans out there, and that the imbalance is already influencing decisions made by the showrunners on which character to focus more on. When websites make rules based on the majority opinion that visitors don’t want to hear from Sam fans, that just irritates an already sensitive issue. As I said in another post, focus on anti-social behavior rather than a certain point of view.
There is something really funny here. Just by reading your comment I think you are a Sam fan. Why? Because you mention that there is a perception that there are more Dean fans out there. The funny thing is that Dean fans think there are more Sam fans out there. Sam fans think this site is mainly about Dean. Dean fans think this site is mainly about Sam.
And I think, you guys are all wrong. Check the name of the site you are on. It is the Winchester Family. This site is about. BOTH brothers as well as Castiel, Bobby, Rufus and any other character that appears on the show.
You can not have the one brother without the other. That is the principel of the show. And yes of course, sometimes you get more info about one brother then the other. But it will be the other way around in another ep.
I’m a fan of many characters, and I wouldn’t want a show with just Sam any more than I would want one with just Dean. You’re reading a lot into my comment that I never wrote.
My perception on the number of fans comes from seeing the results of many polls out there in the fandom that measure the popularity of Sam vs. Dean and seeing Dean always come out ahead.
GOOD! From someone who is very postive about the show, especially this season, I applaud you.
With respect applaud what? there isnt a case here of positive represent the ‘good’ guys and those who have the nerve not to be are the ‘bad’ guys.
All it is is two differing views that’s all.
Oh come on Sharon, you’re ambushing someone who’s showing support for a policy? This is EXACTLY the crap that people are complaining about. Try to be less sensitive by things and let people have their say without fear of being shouted down for no good reason. That was not an insult to you personally.
Thanks Daisymae. Your message of support means everything to us!
[quote]Oh come on Sharon, you’re ambushing someone who’s showing support for a policy? This is EXACTLY the crap that people are complaining about. Try to be less sensitive by things and let people have their say without fear of being shouted down for no good reason. That was not an insult to you personally.
[/quote]
Alice with all due respect this whole thing is ‘personal’ that is why some of the responses have been passionate shall we say and everybody should not have a fear of being shouted down. As I said I understand your position and that is why I hope all this works. The Sam thread does seem to be so that is a plus point.
Thanks Alice for that even though I have to admit, I don’t really understand how it will work and especially how the three of you will manage that work load.
Since it looks like I am the oldest member of the WFB commentating on your news here are a few thoughts from my point of view.
Back in early 2009 I discovered the SPN fandom and I was majorly ticked off by the comments on the sites I checked out.
Commentators that were fighting over Sam or Dean in a real nasty way, then there were comments about Jensen and Jared that were deffinatly not appropiate. I was totally shocked to find that kind of stuff on the net.
And then in March of the same year I came across the WFB. That is were I found my home. Here I felt comfortable. I was able to post my comment without getting attacked. I have no problem with discussion my point of view as long as it is in a nice way. After all everybody is entitle to their own opinion and the world would be dull if we would all agree on something.
But back then the comments on an article always had something to do with the things mentioned in the article. Plus most of us thanked the writers for their efforts. I know it is a lot of work writting an article. The work of our writers doesn’t seem to be appreciated any more. After all they are just fans like you and me. Each one of them has alive outside of the WFB and still they put a lot of work and effort into their articles. – SO PEOPLE APPRECIATE IT – please.
For anybody who doesn’t understand the kind of comments Alice and me are talking about, check out any of the articles from 2009 or 2010. And yes, there are articles there only about Dean and others only about Sam and we did have our discussions back then.
Back then I posted a comment to just about each and every article and if it only was to thank the writers for writing it. Nowadays I read the articles and that’s it. I rarely read the comments anymore because I don’t like the way they take off. Very often it takes me a few days till I am able to read the article and by then the threat on the article is so much way off from what the whole article was about that I think it useless to still post a comment. If you people comment on an article then do just that. Comment on the article. Stay on the subject. If the teacher back in school told you to write an essay about the pro and cons of airplanes and you delivered an essay about your last shopping trip in the mall the teacher would have told you you missed the subject. And here it is the same.
A writer puts down her opinions or picks something special from an ep to write about, then comment on that but don’t stray if your thoughts are on a different subject find the proper place to post them. And Alices threat seems to be perfect for that. The ADD COMMENT on the articles is ment to comment on the article and not on something else.
Just another thought that jumped to my mind. If you want to discuss something outside the article subject go to the c-box. It’s a chattroom. Momentarily there are only three people left using it (Thanks Alice for not shutting it down yet) Therefore it is not very busy there. Since the three of us are Europeans we usually there during the east coast afternoon or early evenings. But hey if you find something to discuss with someone who seems to be on the net at the same time ask them to meet you in the c-box and you can have your discussions there with instant replies.
I have always held the opinion that a discussion will lead where a discussion leads. On every forum I’ve visited, conversations almost always veer off the source material. It’s the nature of a conversation/discussion.
For instance, if Sam gets on Dean for trusting Benny, I can see how a conversation could spring up about Sam and Ruby in S4 and why he shouldn’t have trusted her, etc. The fact that conversations have gone off track has never bothered me the way it apparently bothers others. That’s why we’re all different.
You are right about the nature of a discussion. Since I made that first post I was chatting on the cbox and our chat is all over the board. But I still believe that the comment box on an article is for commenting on the article and if your discussion goes somewhere else then take it somewhere else like the new thing Alice is coming up with
Thanks Yirabah! You have been a very good long time supporter to us. We do appreciate it.
Thank you Alice and the other administrators!
Alice, Ardeo and sweetondean – thank you thank you thank you!
I was so dreading this site becoming TWoP. It wasn’t the negative posts, but the repeated and repeated and repeated negative posts, in the same threads no less, that were really getting me down. Over and over and over the same posts in every thread! It really gave me a sour stomach and eventually just skipped over the posters who constantly repeat the same things over and over.
The writers on this site are wonderful and deserve to be thanked, and we are grateful to them for they do not have to do this for us.
The Winchester brothers are who I come to read about and speculate about and post positive and negative as it goes, but not to repeat the same posts ad nauseum.
The nastiness shows in some of the above. Some people love to be negative about just about everything and should be grateful to have a thread to do that on.
Thanks again Alice. This site is still the best one to come to to have respectful discussions. 🙂
Exactly! Everything you said!
Especially the part about the negative posts just being repeated over and over again. One of the wonderful things about this fandom and this site is that there is SO much intelligent and thought provoking commentary. When that commentary starts to sound like a broken record, it completely loses it’s “value†and makes people want to tune out. I would say this also holds true even if they agreed with your opinion.
You’ve heard it said, I’m sure, that we live in a microwave culture – a culture where we’ve been conditioned to expect instant results and instant solutions. It is quoted a lot when referring to having faith and how God works more like a “slow cookerâ€. We are ONLY 5 shows into this season. Let’s let it sit in the Crock Pot awhile longer. There have been some people who have been mad about the direction the show was taking before the season even started. They had expectations and if those expectations weren’t met, they were not going to be happy. We do not know what this season holds so just give it some time.
I happen to be on the side that loves everything about this season. Everything. In fact, I have loved all of the seasons, warts and all. Were some seasons/shows better than others? Sure, but still loved them all. If the time has come that you can’t find something you love in it and it is only bringing you discontent, then it might be time to look for something else. But I really do think everyone should just let it simmer a bit. I think it’s gonna be pretty yummy! 😛
(Message from Alice, this entire post has been removed. Violation of our rules, Show Respect.
You’re calling someone showing support as “self righteous?” This is EXACTLY why we’re getting complaints and a bad rap from people. People should be able to post here without fear of unwarranted attacks like this. You claim to have been an editor at a website. You should know this!
To be honest, your bitterness has now crossed a line. I’m going to say this one more time. This is our policy. Get over it.
The Sam thread has had an amazing discussion going today. I couldn’t be happier with it. Given the number of hits the article has had, people are reading it. So I don’t know why in the world you think you’re being censored or shuttled off. How about participating in the discussions and enjoying it?)
[quote]Well, I can see a silver lining now. If segregation cuts back on self-righteous posts like these, the atmosphere will indeed be improved and filled with less “nastiness.”[/quote]
Agreed!
Honestly, the two posts above are why I fully support segregating myself. I’m so sick of being looked down on for daring to be critical about this show! No, I’ll happily stick to the “negative” corner where posters seem to respect everyone’s opinion be it glowing or critical.
How is referring to [u]everyone’s [/u] opinions as intellegent and thought provoking make me self rightous and nasty? There was absolutely no intent in my comment to offend anyone. My thought was about encouraging patience and hope for things to come and to point out that a valid opinion might get lost in repetition. I’m not a pot stir-er. I apologize to those I have offended.
You sound like you had good intentions, but comments that are dismissive of other people’s opinions come across as self-righteous.
The nastiness toward other people in this thread is in this line (not your post): “The nastiness shows in some of the above. Some people love to be negative about just about everything and should be grateful to have a thread to do that on.”
I suspect that I may be the one those referring to “nastiness” are thinking of. I admit that I did get angry. I apologized above for anything that may have crossed the line into personal attack, and I do so again here.
OTOH, unlike some, I am not fine with being moved into a separate area. That is, I am perfectly fine with a distinction between on-topic episode review threads and more general season or series wide discussion threads, if they are indeed administered in such a way that, say, a long, intense enthusiastic discussion of Dean that strays from the immediate episode context is moved, while a critical comment regarding the writing of Sam, germane to a particular episode and review, stands, and if comments that reiterate positive views that are oft-repeated are treated the same way as comments that reiterate frequently expressed negative views.
(Well, not perfectly fine, because I think long, intense discussions that stray from the topic can be wonderful things, and I think discussion of the broader issues and of the immediate episode aren’t easy to separate, but I would at least feel that the decision was about creating a site in which the conditions of discussion were the same for all parties.)
But if the distinction is between positive and negative (and the majority of the discussion here in this thread certainly suggests that that is the distinction many people have in mind), or between Sam and all other things, then I will continue to think that this policy is bad for the spirit of discussion for all of us. I think I am much the better for constantly bumping into the opinions of those who see certain aspects of the show and characters in a different light from myself, and I’d like to think the reverse was also true.
When first saw that a separate thread had been opened for discussion about Sam’s storyline, I took it as a positive, thinking that it had been recognized as a “hot topic” of the season that called for more in-depth discussion. Reading the preamble here cast it in a more questionable light. It comes across more like a quarantine thread for those of us that are harshing on someone else’s SPN buzz. Even though we actually have a writing problem in the series, it’s being treated as a fan problem. There is an emphasis on how the happy fans are being put off by dissenting opinions, and there is a confusing notion that a positive review shouldn’t attract negative comments.
My impression of this forum is that both the positive and the negative responses are polite, well thought out, and carefully considered, and there are none of the gratuitous, rage-aholic, scorched-earth diatribes that characterize too many other discussion groups about this show. If the dissatisfaction with Sam’s storyline continues as a theme throughout discussion of the first several episodes, it’s because the issues behind it remain unresolved. Chances are that if some fans are upset by the disappointment, this won’t be solved by opening a separate thread for protracted discussions, because any episode that touches on the issue of Sam’s behavior will be fair game for comment anyway.
We’ve been “quarantined!” LOL
(Warning from Alice – This is exactly what turns people off from our comments. We get it. You’re upset. Get over it. I got your message about ten posts ago. I really only need to read it once).
RMF – You couldn’t be more mistaken over the intent of the message. We welcome all opinions, and I even welcome your concerns here. They’re valid, but you have no need to worry. Here’s the behavior we don’t like, which seems to be VERY evident in this thread by certain individuals (not you):
– Sending a comment in reply to someone attacking that poster for one line or word of their opinion.
– Putting words in other people’s mouths.
– Posting over and over again the same complaint, even if it’s worded slightly different and in reply to other comments. The sentiment is the same and it annoys people.
That’s is the behavior I get complaints about and it’s turned many happy and casual viewers away from this site. We aim to welcome them back and go back to the environment that we used to have when this site was founded.
I still don’t get why you, and many others here, think we’ll be moving negative posts. That’s not true at all. We’ll be moving whole conversations if they veer too far from the original spirit of the article and get “excessively” negative. That’s usually when protests get repeated over and over again.
You’re actually over speculating everything that we’ll do here. Please give the system a try, and then save your feedback for when something actually does happen that you don’t like. All we did here is announce a policy. If you check out the “Let’s Discuss” threads, it so far seems to be working.
m1tchells, there is no reason to apologize. You did nothing wrong and I edited the original post disrespecting your opinion.
As a matter of fact, the responses to your post are exactly why we’re imposing new rules. Some people don’t understand the concept of us wanting to provide a safe haven for all posters without fear of attack. We will deal with those individuals as this happens.
Thanks so much for your comment.
[quote]Some people love to be negative about just about everything and should be grateful to have a thread to do that on.[/quote]
And some of us have tried to be optimistic for years and have reached our limit. I actually encouraged Alice to open a new thread where we could talk about Sam and later Dean and other points that will come up without having to censor ourselves or to harsh other people’s squee.
I’m glad you have no problems with this season, but I and others do. I actually loved season six and listened to many complaints about it on many threads. To this day people still talk about how horrible season six was. I realized they didn’t have the same feelings I did and sometimes I responded and others I let it go. I NEVER accused them of liking to be negative or calling them nasty. I would appreciate the same courtesy now that I am unhappy instead of insults.
Exactly. I haven’t been in the SPN fandom as long as you, but in season 6 I was pretty new to the show and excited about all of the mystery. I was the glass-half-full girl for most of the season, even though I found parts very disappointing. I was optimistic at the start of season 7, until I started realizing that Sam’s storyline had been dropped and wasn’t likely to be picked up again for a long while – and I also became very disappointed with the writing of the larger story arc. I had an open mind last summer when we learned that Sam would be getting a girlfriend. Some of my favorite shows write very powerful character stories. I gave Carver the benefit of the doubt when we got spoilers last summer about Sam not looking for Dean.
I’m not a one-character fan. I don’t seek out things to be negative about. I’m currently a glass-half-full fan with all of my other favorite shows. This one issue – that I think the writers have not been putting much thought or care into Sam for several seasons now – is just too big for me to look beyond right now, and I won’t enjoy any of the other storylines until it’s addressed.
But with that said, I’ve tried (this previous post aside) to be very respectful and show restraint with other opinions, even those I find offensive. And I try to censor myself when I hear myself becoming repetitive, because I know not everyone wants to listen to it.
The thing is, if I find myself getting annoyed with someone else’s repeated posts, I just start to ignore them. No harm done. What is really hard to ignore are personal attacks, because those types of comments sour the atmosphere more than anything else. If I get penalized for writing this, I don’t care. I have another website that’s my primary site for posting about this show. I really just came here for the reviews and articles, but I won’t be doing that if I feel my opinion is not welcome.
Where do you normally go, cd28?
I post as chris684 at SpoilerTV. It has some of the conflicts found everywhere these days – people happy with this season vs. people unhappy, angels vs. brother focus – but I like it because it has a good-size community that is pretty committed to staying away from brother fights, extreme character hate, and creating conflict for conflict’s sake. Haters occasionally find their way there, but they usually don’t stay long because they don’t find a lot of support. It also has a good mix of Sam fans, Dean fans, Cas fans, etc. The moderators pretty much stay out of your way unless you’re picking fights with other people or otherwise causing trouble.
Alice, please don’t be offended by the referral. I’ve mentioned your site or articles a couple of times over there, so I figure it evens out.
Thanks, cd28. I might give it a peak, or I might just go back to lurkerdom. I’m suddenly seeing a bunch more issues (on both sides) here than I ever knew existed. Eyes have been opened in the last couple of days, and I am very, very, very sad.
I might too. I’m feeling some of latent hostility. I wasn’t aware that so many people had an issue about debating the you know the issues. I was never really in the fandom before last fall, but enjoyed reading different perspective here. And people saw stuff that I missed so I thought it was kind of fun. But I think maybe I’ll just go back to debating my family, they’re all use to me and my rambling ways.
I understand you both! I joined the online fandom in S4 – great season to join, huh – and learned all about the Sam v. Dean wars, the Jared v. Jensen wars, Wincest, Dawn O., how close the series kept coming to being canceled, the hatred of certain episodes like Bugs and Route 666, etc.
It was really eye-opening b/c as someone who just watched the show each week, I had no complaints and loved all the characters. I think I’m genuinely bi-bro b/c I didn’t spend Seasons 1-3 online. I honestly don’t have a favorite. The online fandom is definitely “interesting.”
Kelly, I also love a good debate. To me, as long as no one is disrespectful or rude to a fellow poster, there shouldn’t be a problem but that’s just me. The posts that Alice and others seem so upset about don’t bother me. I, personally, haven’t seen anything inappropriate or out-of-line.
I’m an attorney so a good debate doesn’t bother me. If the conversation becomes too repetitive for me, I will stop reading/following it. If others are still enjoying it, I say leave them to it. Again, that’s JMO. Others here seem to be way more sensitive than me, and I don’t mean that in a mean way. We’re all different people.
Really, the only thread I’ve had a major problem with is this one. On both sides.
I’ll stay on the ‘Sam’ thread, (which I have honestly enjoyed today) or refrain from posting for now, but I am suddenly re-evaluating my involvement with everything. This doesn’t feel like the friendly site I thought it was – the problem is definitely not limited to one-side – and that is a shame. I don’t blame the moderators for trying to do something about a perceived problem, but obviously the scab has come off of a festering wound.
There’s someone at that site who runs extended competitions, such as best episode, or more recently best quotation (for which she is currently gathering nominations), during the hiatuses. She [b]hates[/b] brother-fights, so the competitions are attempts to get away from the ugliness that is too often a big a part of this fandom. You might enjoy that.
Actually, I don’t mind if you refer other sites or post links in comments. We’re actually very cool with that. Just as long as the links don’t go to porn sites or anything, we’re good.
cd28, you may be okay in ignoring other people’s repeated posts, but many people aren’t. It sets a very negative tone and ruins someone’s fun. I’ve had that happen to me in other fandoms. It really sucks when you’re a happy fan. This was meant to be a welcoming place.
I just don’t know how I can explain this anymore. You have decided to cause trouble instead of being open minded and giving something a try. You’ve traditionally been a better poster than this.
Again, I have no idea where you got the idea your opinion isn’t welcome. It’s the excessive opinions we’re trying to control and move to a different place. Thus “streamlining” discussions. This thread has many examples of what is wrong with discussions on this site and you are the worst culprit here. That doesn’t mean you’re like that on other threads and discussions. To be honest, you haven’t really been a problem until now.
If you’re still upset, you and I can debate on through messages at “Contact Us” if you wish. Otherwise, any more complaints are getting edited. This is the final warning.
Since that is my quote I just want to say it was not directed at you personally. There are others here who seem to want to attack anyone who is enjoying this season so far. You’ve always been critical of the show, and not the poster with a different opinion. That’s the way it should be.
Being attacked for an opinion is a downer and I do not like to get into fights on the net. This is a TV show and not a life and death situation or even a presidential election. Those things deserve emotional outbursts and strong language and opinions. Guys, this is a TV show. You wouldn’t be here if you hadn’t found something to love about it in the first place.
I won’t attack a poster, but I will have the right to ignore nasty posts. There is no law that I must read the same things over and over. And there is no law that anyone has to read mine either.
I too enjoyed season 6 and I enjoyed it even more after I found out what was wrong with Sammy. I’ve also stated ad nauseum my favourite seasons were 1 – 3. So far this season, I’m happy with the way it is heading. It seems to me to be fresh and I’m appreciating badass Dean and human Sammy without his supernatural problems of the past 4 seasons. I’ve loved every season, some more than others, and I love coming to this site and commenting. I’ve never decided to hate a season before it even started, like some have. (not you personally)
I never called you nasty, but if you have read the comments you can tell who I was referring to. Just because you are unhappy this season doesn’t make you nasty.
Anyway, I’m sure I can’t win with everyone so be it!
Peace! 🙂
Okay, I don’t have a problem with being moved to another area to discuss long term issues or character analysis or my concerns about the season. But I do have a problem with someone saying that everybody who has concerns about this season is someone who loves to be negative about everything.
I like to debate and discuss. And I know I have repeated myself at times and brought up issues that are several seasons old (and so have others who are being relegated to the new area). And I’m sure I’ve been negative at times (although so have most people who post on this sight at one time or another).
Yes sometimes frustrations will overtake people, especially when they start thinking in terms of repeated issues and especially if those issues concern a beloved character, like Sam OR DEAN. There was quite a bit of bitchiness and frustration over his apathy and depression last year. I know because I spent a good portion of time debating him, although those posts weren’t sent to another area for discussion. And some of the people who are being a fairly condescending now were among the most negative poster last season.
Again, I seriously do not mind posting most of my stuff to a character profile rather than a episode post. I can see where reading the same thing repeatedly could get irritating. But I think if this is being done to be respectful of other posters then I don’t think returning the respect is too much to ask.
To be honest, I’m so lost with these replies I’m not sure what comment you’re referring to. I have read all these comments though, and I didn’t get the impression anyone was saying that specifically. It could be something was misconstrued.
We’ve had the Let’s Discuss thing going one day and the discussion and debate has been wonderful! I really honestly think that having a free form area is great for those who want to get into deep discussions (good and bad).
I’ve found your level of debate to be just fine. Heck, I’ve been negative. Most of season seven was a rant for me. The issue is people who are excessively negative, not negative. Please continue to share your insights! Thank you for giving it a try.
Thanks, Alice, for a place to go. I’m enjoying the Lets Discuss Sam thread.
We’ve already had a day of really interesting discussion, without fear of upsetting anyone with ‘negativity’. There’s even been some positive posts, and ‘where do you see this season going’ posts. I think its been the most active thread of the day. Maybe some of the others will check it out and add their 2 cents.
I just counted 95 posts on it, compared with 3 in the Dean thread, 3 in the John thread, and 6 in the new episode review posted today. Interesting.
[quote][quote]I just counted 95 posts on it, compared with 3 in the Dean thread, 3 in the John thread, and 6 in the new episode review posted today. Interesting.[/quote][/quote]
I think this is precisely the issue the admins were trying to address.
If you noticed there were totally 15 odd people who posted on this thread. And about 10 of them posted more than once and accounted for majority of the 95 comments you mentioned. I dont wish to sound critical but most of the comments I read here are stuff thats been written a dozen times before. Its like beating a dead horse again and again and again and one more time. I too am upset with the Sam not looking for Dean but that does not mean every recap, every discussion thread has to be abt it. Somehow someone always hijacks the discussion to that point and it feels like a lot of other points abt the episode, other comments etc get submerged in the deluge. While I acknowledge this is not intentional I think what Alice and the other admins wanted to do is streamline it so that some balance restored. Going by the number of people who vote on the poll on the home page I would assume there are at least 300 to 400 people who read the recaps regularly. This site needs to be welcoming to those people as well. I was one of the lurkers who was afraid of getting involved cos somehow it was leaving a bad taste in my mouth while the show was giving me great joy. I think having a separate page to air grievances abt the character’s arc is a great idea. That way we can keep the comments/discussion on the recap page focussed on the episode in question. It sounds like a good idea to me and I congratulate Alice & co for coming up with it. I think this website has always been moderated well, friendly and bi-bro. Its was a pleasure to visit this site before and this move makes it even more so. I dont see how this move is stifling or restrictive. I also dont see any place where Alice says dont post negative stuff at all. She only says dont keep harping on the same point again and again.
Now I think I need to stop repeating the same thing over and over right 🙂 So I’m bowing out from here. Thanks folks.
I’m thrilled with it! It’s been really fun to read. Keep up the good debate!
Thank you Alice, Ardeospina and sweetondean. I appreciate what you are doing. 😀
Alice, you’ve got my support. I’ve found some of the comments made by other posters to be rather extreme and have given me a “bad” taste in my mouth. While I agree that disagreement will occur and should be discussed, it seems that it is beginning to have a personal undertone to it. In several occasions I’ve found that the discussions that have posted after the article have nothing to do with that article at all. So, a separate discussion area/thread is a great idea. Those discussions belong over there where people can beat an particular issue or story point into the ground if they so chose. Also some posters need to be reminded to be civil to others. They seem to forget their manners and believe that they can say anything or be disrespectful to any and all who don’t agree with their view point. This is a totally shameful way to act towards others who are only voicing their own right to vent their “peace” too.
BTW – Given everything…this season is so MUCH better than the last two. Of course, that’s my opinion. So be and play nice people!!
🙂
[quote]Alice, you’ve got my support. I’ve found some of the comments made by other posters to be rather extreme and have given me a “bad” taste in my mouth. While I agree that disagreement will occur and should be discussed, it seems that it is beginning to have a personal undertone to it. Also some posters need to be reminded to be civil to others. They seem to forget their manners and believe that they can say anything or be disrespectful to any and all who don’t agree with their view point. This is a totally shameful way to act towards others who are only voicing their own right to vent their “peace” too.
BTW – Given everything…this season is so MUCH better than the last two. :-)[/quote]
You’ve just expressed my exact feelings. I haven’t followed the discussion since the latter half of S6 because I didn’t feel as connect to the show. However, S8 has me reeling and I am so excited for more! Yet in my search to reconnect with the fanbase, I’ve come across a few disgruntled comments that have left me quite sad.
Perhaps there should be separate “Let’s Discuss” topics for positive or negative comments only. You know… an “If you’re happy w/ [fill in the blank], go here” page and an “If you’re frustrated w/ [fill in the blank], go here” page.
My problem is and has always been the aggression.
I feel like it is just getting worse here. Especially yesterday (Nov 6/12). I’ve gone back to lurkerdom, except for this post, and I am very sad and disappointed.
It can be a little intimidating to try and add ones 2 cents sometimes. Some are more welcoming than others when you try and join a conversation and since I have no Phd in SPN (as someone put it) or anything else, I usually limit my comments to small ones.
As far as the “negative” comment issue. I don’t think that they meant that any negative comment is unwelcome or that discussions about the Sam issues are bad. The beating of the dead horse in every thread is the crux IMO. Fans are unhappy and need to vent their frustrations. They are just giving them(us) a place to air it out.
Thank you admins for this. Its a welcome move. I was almost on the verge of giving up reading comments/commenting on this site altogether cos it was so damn repetitive and causing a lot of anguish on all sides (sam, dean and bi-bro fans). I’m hoping there will be meaningful discussions henceforth too but will be more open and about other things as well. I dont think the negatives of the show/writing should be swept under the carpet or that we should overlook them but by that logic the positives should not be ignored too. And this season has a lot of positives that that are worth discussing. Appreciate this move.
What if positive comments are repetitive?Frankly, too much sugar (forced) is bad.
[quote]What if positive comments are repetitive?Frankly, too much sugar (forced) is bad.[/quote]
Am with u on this. I agree. Too much of anything can be irritating. Basically we need some balance or moderation I guess.
True enough anonymousN, but the happy posters/fans tend to say their bit and move on. Some of the more unhappy folks tend to want to commiserate a lot because they are frankly disappointed with many things this year. Not really a major problem until it dominates every thread. I actually sympathize with many of the complaints and think having a place to hash out specfic issues is a GREAT idea.
my posts 50% of the times are reactive so if the positive posts repeat when i react either positively or negatively that will also repeat.having said that i agree with the last part of your last sentence
I think we’re looking to control excess in either direction. Although, I can honestly say, in the history of the Winchester Family Business, we haven’t had “too much sugar.” I guess in a way (this is just a metaphor), misery loves company! 🙂
I discovered this site approximately twelve months ago, when I became a rabid fan of Supernatural.
I was attracted to TWFB by two things. One being the exceptionally well written articles that not only recapped episodes, but some were also designed to tickle our funny bones and objectify our guys.
The other reason was the welcoming, warm and fuzzy that I felt whenever I perused this site, and was game enough to transcend my self imposed lurker status.
My confidence to plunge into our members intelligent and insightful discussions was growing but has come to an abrupt halt. There have been some rather varmint responses to valid comments of late that have made me, as a relatively new member (and one who LOVES this show) gasp and back peddle.
I know that everybody has the right to their opinion, absolutely! However the toublesome and extremely repeative comments has not only lessened my enjoyment in reading them but also my desire to get involved.
Thank you so much Alice, Ardeospina and sweetondean for the effort that you put into this site, and your attempt to again make it warm and fuzzy.
If there was a “Like” button for this comment, I would click it right now!
Slightly off topic, but when put in this commenting system, I had like and dislike buttons. The abuse with the dislike got ridiculous so I disabled the feature. I can probably modify the code to only do a like button. I’ll put that on our “enhancements” list!
Thank you so much for all your good work. You are giving space for open and good discussion, offering differing opinions and hopes and visions and happiness and disappointments. Creating new areas for conversation helps us to hear each other. It seems to me when this is about a show that has, at its heart, the theme of family and relationships, this is so very fitting.
This is very important to me and such welcome is what finally enabled and encouraged me to make any kind of comment. Thank you.
I am a little confused as to the definition of “negative” as it relates to this policy. Is it “negative” as in critical or questioning of the content of the show or a particular episode? Or “negative” as in tone, i.e. aggressive or dismissive of others?
I am usually a lurker on your site. I enjoy its intelligent and thoughtful reviews and comments. I like how it does not get bogged down in one-dimensional fangirling, but rather discusses, sometimes passionately, the layers and deep myths of SPN and its characters. I recently commented, yes with a follow-up, on a review because, for the first time ever in my history with the show, I have found myself watching each episode of season 8 with an increasing sense of loss and dread. I have had more and less favorable opinions about specific episodes or even whole seasons, but never have I felt like this. I commented on this particular review precisely because the reviewer did NOT share my view, not so I could argue with her, but because I wanted her opinion of my misgivings. I wanted her insight, because I have so many, to me, troubling unanswered questions and I hoped that the careful analysis she showed in her review would help me find something to hold onto as I navigate this season. I would love to ask Carver these questions and have this discussion with him, but since that is not an option and all comments from showrunners, writers and actors so far only seem to add to my sense of unease, I put myself out there and expressed my feelings in the comment thread on your site. Twice.
I am now confused enough about your policy change and the resulting comments, that I will not do so again. I fear this has made me feel too uncomfortable to stick my neck out like this. I do not have a real desire to have a among-fans venting session, I have friends on Twitter with whom I can do that. I always felt, from what I have read on here in the past, that your reviews were not simply recaps with analysis, but a invitation to deeper insight through discussion, which certainly requires dissenting opinions.
Looking within, for reasons for my continued unease with what is happening in the show and therefor the fandom, I believe that it is exactly THIS, not just the continued inability to get answers (they don’t even have to be the ones I want to hear) but the inability to continue to ask the questions that has me tied into knots.
I can say I’ve looked at your past comments and they are just fine.
Our greatest concern is overly negative tone in repeating posts. One negative post isn’t going to get anyone in trouble. Attack posts will instantly get people in trouble. Repeating similiar comments over and over again will not get people in trouble, but it might get their comments moved to a different thread.
I encourage you to post and share your opinions. If things get out of control, we’ll step in with gentle reminders. But we don’t want to discourage posting, especially with unhappy viewers. That’s not our intent.
I have concerns about the show, and I will continue to share them in my reviews as I see them. You are always welcome to do so in your comments. However, if you want to get in a very detailed back and forth discussion about it, you might want to do those in the “Let’s Discuss” threads.
This will be a learning process for all of us the next few weeks, so don’t worry about it too much. We’ll figure it out as we go.
Just a comment – Some of the posts over on the Let’s Discuss Dean threat have been a little aggressive, imho.
That’s worse than any amount of negativity or repetitiveness, imho.
That said. I’m done.
Hi, st50.
The best way to let us know you don’t like a particular comment is to use the “report to administrator” option underneath the comment. This will send us an email and allow you to explain why you don’t like what’s being said. We will then take any action we feel is appropriate when we’re able.
Thanks!
Ardeospina
Alice, Ardeospina, and SweetonDean, this sounds like a good idea, but obviously some people still don’t get the message.
I remember when I first startied visiting tWFB, two plus years ago, it was a happy place where everybody could give his or her opinion openly in a friendly environment. But in the last year or so, it has become nasty and almost hostile. The most innocent of topics becomes a Dean vs Sam slugfest.
I stopped leaving comments on episodes because, when I finally found the time to read my favorite reviewer’s recaps, the comments have gotten so off the topic of the actual episode, that I just didn’t feel like wasting my time.
I would love tWFB to return to the old days, before the battle royale of Dean storylines vs Sam storylines began. But unfortunately, I have noticed that the fanbase of SPN has gotten younger, and less mature, therefore the ‘members’ here at tWFB, have little or no respect for each other and that is what brings out the stupidness in a lot of the comments.
As I started off with, I like the idea of trying to take back control of the comments, if it does work, than I will be glad to once again return to my fave place for SPN chit chat. 🙂
Thanks NancyL! I can honestly say a lot of this has been growing pains. This site continues to grow so much, it got super hard for me as moderator to keep up. Now I have help.
Up until the end of last season, people understood our foundation and behaved well. But since then we’ve gotten a ton of new people and I failed to set expectations. Not to mention the comments daily are now more than triple!
So welcome back, and I hope you find yourself leaving comments again. We are committed to making sure it’s a welcome place for you again.
Alice, it is not fun being popular. Just ask Cordelia Chase. 😆
Hi Alice,
I had a quick suggestion based off of the new “lets discuss” threads, but I wasn’t sure where to put it, so I am posting it here in the hopes that you will pick it up. These new threads are awesome, I have been in and commented on both the Sam and Dean Let’s Discuss threads, and they are excellent. So excellent in fact that they have grown incredibly long. Can there be a re-set or a chapter type thing that breaks them down a few more times? I don’t know much about computers or websites for that matter, so forgive me if what I am asking for is on the order of cataloging the Library of Congress or something..
The tone of some comments seems to have become a long running issue in SPN fandom over the past couple of years. The problems poor Mo Ryan experienced with commenting springs to mind.
Alice, you’re doing exactly what needs to be done. And as you have already mentioned, it’s your site so you’re well within your rights to run the site as you see fit.
I think it’s a good policy! 🙂
Gotta say, I haven’t read every word of every post, but where did Alice say that all negative talk *must* go to the Sam thread? Where did she state that no dissenting opinion will be allowed? That only glowing reviews will remain intact on the site? That seems to be coming from the responses, not Alice.
When the show started, this was one of the websites I regularly read, and semi-regularly posted on. Somewhere around S3/4, I gave up. I post negative and positive things, I’m not always happy about what happens on Show, with the writing, with the directing, the characters, etc. I got sick of being piled on by those who disagreed with me. I’ve just returned to this site, after not watching the show for S6 and S7. I was already giving thought to giving up on this site. It seems that anything, the slightest thing, can set some people off. I don’t mind people who don’t agree with my opinion. I feel no need to address them, try to convince them they’re wrong, show them the error of their ways. I don’t need to personally address every single post that I don’t agree with. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Alternately, I really don’t often feel the need to cheerlead someone who agrees with me, either. Again, they are entitled to their opinion, and they don’t need me to tell them they’re right, they’re the most clever person in the universe, and obviously, we are awesome in our shared content and understanding of Show.
So thank you, Alice, for trying to do something about this. After 2-1/2 years of missing my show, I finally feel hope that I can regain my obsession, even if there are still things I don’t care for. Thanks for letting me express the good and the bad, for giving me a place to do so. Maybe I won’t need to find another site, after all.
I echo my sincere appreciation for this site’s moderators and the dedication they have to keeping this a welcoming place for all flavors of discussion about the show we love (and sometimes get frustrated with).
As someone who has been thrilled with this season, and SPN in general, I can say that the “Let’s Discuss” threads are [b]not[/b] about segregating critical opinions (there is indeed a difference between a “critical” and a “negative” opinion), but providing a safe place for specific topics of discussion.
Why can I say this? Because I’m a generally “positive” or “neutral” poster (though I was/am critical about S7) and even [b]I[/b] go to the “Let’s Discuss” threads. I’ve also had one of my comments in response to an off-topic/repetitive post moved to a “Let’s Discuss” thread (now I know why, lol).
What is meant by an off-topic/repetitive post? I think what they are getting at with this rule (and please correct me if I’m wrong) is going to read an article about a just-aired episode and finding comments that fail to discuss the merits of that episode or the article. Some of them instead focus solely on one character’s storyline, or one aspect of the season, and their frustration with it, and do tend to get repetitive. Hence the different “Let’s Discuss” threads. Rather than stifling discussion, this new rule opens up a place for commentators wishing to focus on a more narrow/specific topic.
That being said, I think there’s a clear difference between good discussion and mere venting. One generally seeks a conversation, a back and forth, and is welcoming of dissenting opinions. The other is generally just a bitter, angry rant that only seeks to provide an emotional release for commenter. I also think it’s often an issue of “tone.” And it’s very frustrating to WANT that discussion, that constructive debate about different interpretations and views and likes/dislikes, and then read through and find a thread littered instead with sarcasm, extreme bitterness, and rants. I am guilty of not being able to ignore them. I also have reported some of them, rather than commenting, precisely because [i]I[/i] was frustrated and knew that whatever I commented would likely not be conducive to healthy discussion.
That being said, I have [b]so[/b] much respect for this site and the moderators. I am not concerned about this new rule, and in fact I support it. This rule, in my view, is not a reprimand on anyone for having a different viewpoint. If my comment is inappropriate for the particular article I’ve commented on, it will merely be moved to another thread, where I can discuss it there.
And so be it. I am a guest here. I am thankful for this site. And I will happily abide by its rules as it tries to satisfy visitors and provide a “safe haven” for those to discuss the show.
It should also be noted that there’s even a “[i]Let’s Discuss: Supernatural Season 8/Jeremy Carver Appreciation Thread[/i]” – so any concerns about critical opinions being singled out and segregated are negated by that fact alone.