Supernatural University: Freedom’s Just Another Word For Nothing Left To Lose
As always in the anticipation of a new season, many fans are bouncing off the walls reacting to spoilery tidbits about the upcoming storyline. I’m going to say up front I’ve never understood the fannish tendency to jump off cliffs making judgments about things we haven’t even seen yet, especially leaping to angry, bitter conclusions about the writers throwing one character under a bus while obviously favoring the other purely on the basis of short, deliberately vague interviews and attention-getting, tiny clips. Prejudging on the basis of incomplete information strikes me as short-sighted on so many levels, and can ruin the viewing experience not only for the judger, but for others who simply want to see where the story will go. My advice to fans (including me!) is always the same: don’t assume things in advance, be aware of your own biases before accusing others, and give the writers time in which to build and develop their story – don’t expect all the answers in the first five minutes, or even the first five episodes. If there were no mystery, where would the story have room to grow?
Supernatural University: Freedom’s Just Another Word For Nothing Left To Lose
(Warning, a few spoilers about season 8)
As always in the anticipation of a new season, many fans are bouncing off the walls reacting to spoilery tidbits about the upcoming storyline. I’m going to say up front I’ve never understood the fannish tendency to jump off cliffs making judgments about things we haven’t even seen yet, especially leaping to angry, bitter conclusions about the writers throwing one character under a bus while obviously favoring the other purely on the basis of short, deliberately vague interviews and attention-getting, tiny clips. Prejudging on the basis of incomplete information strikes me as short-sighted on so many levels, and can ruin the viewing experience not only for the judger, but for others who simply want to see where the story will go. My advice to fans (including me!) is always the same: don’t assume things in advance, be aware of your own biases before accusing others, and give the writers time in which to build and develop their story – don’t expect all the answers in the first five minutes, or even the first five episodes. If there were no mystery, where would the story have room to grow?
Anyway, the issue I wanted to address here is why I personally am not disturbed about the spoilers indicating Sam abandoned the hunter life entirely and did not look for Dean or try to get him back. I know many fans think that would be uncharacteristic behavior or would cast Sam as someone uncaring and disloyal, especially in comparison with Dean, but I respectfully but firmly disagree. Let me explain.
If Sam indeed did not look for Dean, I see a combination of extremely practical reasons that could come together to explain that, including:
- having absolutely no trail to follow;
- lacking any useful information that could have led to a recovery, even if Sam had been able to figure out a direction;
- being totally isolated from the rest of the hunting community and having no reasonable expectation of any knowledgeable help;
- knowing from all their prior experience that bringing people back never came without a price that probably shouldn’t be paid, always leading to more loss and pain; and
- hitting his personal psychological and emotional limit, losing Dean, Bobby, and Castiel virtually together, on top of all he suffered in Hell and afterward.
I think Sam hit bottom after the end of season seven, because he had nothing left to lose. But I think that also made him free to choose his life for the first time in many, many years, and I think that was perfectly reasonable for him to do.
Where’s Dean? Where Are They, Crowley?
Dean’s disappearance really left Sam nothing to go on in terms of knowing what happened to him. In every other instance – save one – when we saw people translocated, they were in direct physical contact with whatever transported them, making it very clear both how they were traveling and likely where they were going. Demons, angels, and the god Chronos (from Time After Time) have all been depicted as needing to be touching whomever they took with them, so a witness to their disappearance at least knew who was responsible and could deduce a location from that agent. However, we never saw the Leviathan display any ability to transport others, or even to transport themselves by any extraordinary means once they adopted bodies, so there was no precedent for Sam to expect Dick to take anyone with him.
The singular exception to this translocation agency occurred in Sympathy For The Devil, when the Winchesters were adroitly whisked from the convent where Lucifer’s gate was opening and neatly deposited – a couple of minutes earlier, no less! – on board an airplane approaching the convent. We were given to understand by both Castiel in Sympathy and by Joshua in Dark Side Of The Moon that Supernatural‘s ineffable, invisible God had been the agent of the brothers’ rescue. To my knowledge, that makes God the only character who had shown the ability to transport people without revealing himself visibly in the process. And before you say, “But Joshua didn’t touch them in Dark Side Of The Moon!â€, I will point out that the brothers weren’t physically in Heaven; they were present there only in soul, so physical touch wouldn’t have been necessary.
The energy pulses expanding outward from Dick as the Leviathan died definitely suggested something far removed from the ordinary going on, but then again, the brothers were involved in doing something that by all accounts had never been done before, so there was no frame of reference for what happened. The burst of power that accompanied Dick seemingly exploding prompted Sam to duck and cover his eyes, and when he reopened them, Dick, Dean, and Castiel were all totally gone, save for the black goo left behind by a wounded Leviathan. Under those circumstances, Sam had no way to know whether Dean had been transported somewhere alive or physically destroyed.
I would argue that, from Sam’s perspective, Dean and Castiel both disappearing along with Dick – and not reappearing somewhere else soon thereafter, which probably would have happened had God stepped in – suggested most strongly that they had both been physically destroyed along with the Leviathan by the power of the weapon they’d used on Dick – something Crowley hinted at with his comment about god-weapons possessing a kick that should be warned about on a label. And if Dean was dead, his body simply unmade by the power of the weapon, Sam had ample reason to believe his soul was most likely in Heaven, given that he knew God had already arranged for him to be there before in Dark Side Of The Moon. We’ve been given no clue about the fate of slain angels, so whether Castiel was in Heaven or simply gone would have seemed to Sam more a topic for philosophical and theological theorizing than anything else.
If Dean was dead and in Heaven, bringing him back to pain on Earth would have been anathema to Sam, especially after what they’d both just experienced with Bobby. “And when it’s your time – go.†That had to be ringing in Sam’s mind after watching Bobby burn with the haunted flask in Survival Of The Fittest.
Purgatory really wasn’t a likely destination for Dean according to everything Sam knew. From all we were told through the entire history of the show, humans had only three possible destinations: Heaven, Hell, or the stunted, doomed, and time-limited existence of a ghost remaining on Earth. From our introduction to Purgatory in Family Matters through Death’s explanation of it in Meet The New Boss, our understanding has been that God created Purgatory to be the exclusive repository of monsters, beginning with Leviathan and continuing through all of Eve’s children. Admittedly, Eve started by warping humans to resemble Leviathan in their taste for eating humans, but only her monster creations wound up in Purgatory. Humans who were simply evil rather than ravenous monsters went to Hell.
Dean had qualified as a monster for the very brief time when he became one of the Alpha vampire’s “children†in Live Free Or Twi-Hard, so perhaps an entry into Purgatory wasn’t entirely beyond the pale for him, but he’d never fed and therefore never fully became a vampire, enabling him to take the cure and purge the vampire infection to fully restore his humanity. On that basis, Purgatory should not have been in the cards as a potential destination for him. And unless Castiel’s temporary position as the container for all the monster and Leviathan souls from Purgatory had contaminated him, Sam had no reason to think an angel would have gone to Purgatory, either.
Even if Sam had theorized that perhaps Dean and Castiel had been sucked into Purgatory with the slain Leviathan because of their proximity to Dick when he died or as a consequence of having been the ones physically in contact with him when the weapon was used, Sam would have had no trail to follow and no spell to use to get them back. And that’s what I explore in the next section.
THANK YOU. That is such a comprehensive analysis, reviewing all that has happened up to now and using that knowledge to predict what may happen, and I really appreciate you sharing it with us. I cannot wait for Wednesday night. I am really grateful for another season and look forward to the cast and writers continuing the story.
Thanks, Grace! I’m with you – I can’t wait for tomorrow night!
Thanks for posting this. I been avoiding spoilers, but it been possible not to see some of the reactions to them. Your analysis seems completely in line with how I see Sam.
Thanks, Kelly! Glad you enjoyed …
AMEN! Since this is my first year on this site before a season begins I have to say I have been a bit surprised by some of the things people say. Sometimes it was so negative it made me sad and also wonder why that individual even watches the show if they feel so negative about it.
Thanks for your great comments as always Alice. I hope you have put some of the angst to rest with this insightful synopsis. Really, both boys are probably in advanced stages of PTSD by now, which means one can Never predict their behavior.
Thanks! I don’t mind people expressing concerns, but negativity gets exhausting. 🙂
Thanks for the voice of reason Bardicvoice, I desperately needed it. I really hope the show manages to convey on screen all that you have so eloquently put into words.
I hope that you will be able to find the time (and the inclination) to do reviews for at least some of the season 8 episodes. I find your reviews really helpful with some of the tricky pschology of the show.
Thanks, Lynx! I do intend to try writing commentary again this season. It will be tricky until mid-December – I’m still working full-time right now while also launching my own business, but I resign from the Fed at the end of November and should have better control over my time. Wheee!
Thank you Bardicvoice! Really, you’re analysis is just perfect. I totally agree with Grace232’s comment and quote “reviewing all that has happened up to now and using that knowledge to predict what may happen”.
Your posting is balm for my tortured soul!!
Happy to provide some balm, Nueva – we need it after that long hellatus!
Thanks for this interesting article. I have only ever been obsessed with a show to the point of seeking out spoilers once before – which was for Buffy. I never thought I’d fall so hard for a show again but SPN proved me wrong.
In general I share your impatience with the tendency of the fandom to overreact to spoilers, interpret scant info with a big dollop of cynicism plus a side of thwarted / unrealistic wishful thinking and freak out. However there are exceptions to this, where we know something for certain, and can – without seeing the episodes in question – already judge the issue at hand. For me the information we have that Sam didn’t look for Dean falls into that category. I am by no means writing the show off, threatening to stop watching or generally throwing my toys out of the pram, but I am DEEPLY disappointed and saddened by that spoiler. And I think I can have that reaction without having seen s8.
You say
“Anyway, the issue I wanted to address here is why I personally am not disturbed about the spoilers indicating Sam abandoned the hunter life entirely and did not look for Dean or try to get him back. I know many fans think that would be uncharacteristic behavior or would cast Sam as someone uncaring and disloyal, especially in comparison with Dean, but I respectfully but firmly disagree. Let me explain.
If Sam indeed did not look for Dean, I see a combination of extremely practical reasons that could come together to explain that”
I am afraid that I, respectfully, disagree. We saw what happened when Dick exploded. We have seen how Sam reacts to losing Dean in the past – in MS, throughout s3 when he never gave up looking for a way out for Dean despite warnings of dire consequences, in IKWYDLS, and in TaT to name but 3. We know Sam’s character – obsessive, laser focussed, utterly determined, resourceful. We know he loves his brother and would do anything for him.
I simply don’t buy – based on everything we know about him – that he ‘had no leads’ or couldn’t imagine where Dean could be, or just assumed he was dead. This is SPN. They know better than to assume someone is dead when there is no body. And it makes total sense to assume Dick got sent back to Purgatory in the explosion, and that Dean/Cas got pulled along with. Hardly a huge leap. Would it have been easy to get Dean out? Of course not! Is that a reason why Sam wouldn’t try? In no way!
Basically I get why Sam would try, fail and then give up. Nothing anyone can say will convince me that he wouldn’t look for his brother – if only to try to make sure he was in heaven and not lost somewhere terrible like hell/Purgatory.
So I guess that rant makes me look like one of the fans you refer to who freak out over spoilers. But that is not the case. Vague hints about story arcs, info about one character but not about others, announcements about guest stars, ep descriptions, ep titles – none of that gets me in a lather. But concrete information about a characters action that is not consistent with how we know they would act – that is different. And the very firm info we have on Sam definitely falls into that category.
My fervent hope is that – like in s6 when I (rightly) insisted that the real Sam would NEVER have withheld his return from Dean – all is not as it first appears. If it is then I will have to chalk it up to rank bad writing which is not the start I wanted or expected from JC.
Thanks again for the really interesting article.
[quote]My fervent hope is that – like in s6 when I (rightly) insisted that the real Sam would NEVER have withheld his return from Dean – all is not as it first appears.[/quote]
You are on to something with this. Carver has stated many times that fans should patient – that they are “playing on expectations” and that everything is not likely what it seems. He’s also said that there’s a lot to do with “perception” this year – what we perceive initially may not be what actually is. I think the man knows what he’s doing, if we’ll just give him an honest chance.
I think that this from Singer: “With truly nobody left, Sam actually kept the brothers’ promise to not look for each other should one of them disappear – you know, the one they always break – and didn’t search for Dean. Instead, he left the hunting life behind, even ditching his cell phones, and “found a real solace, a real comfort†in Amelia, says Singer. Needless to say, this does not sit well with Dean, but as his own secrets about the past year start to come out, “those tables turn as to who has to answer for what,†says Carver. “While Sam’s trying to be really forthcoming, saying, ‘My mindset is different,’ Dean is being really less than forthcoming,†points out Singer. “The fact that he’s judgmental is probably not all that fair to Sam, given what Dean’s not saying.†Regardless of who’s right or wrong in this scenario, he adds, “everyone will get their licks in.â€
Read More at: http://tvline.com/2012/10/01/supernatural-season-8-preview-carver/#utm_source=copypaste&utm_campaign=referral
Pretty much contradicts the idea that Sam’s actions aren’t what they seem, or that that is what Carver has meant by his remarks on perception. Apparently Sam is being honest and forthcoming, and the thing that makes Dean’s judgment on Sam’s year something other than the single, objective take isn’t any revelation about Sam, but just the fact that Dean’s actions over the year are also open to criticism.
[quote]With truly nobody left, Sam actually kept the brothers’ promise to not look for each other should one of them disappear – you know, the one they always break – and didn’t search for Dean.[/quote]
Actually they never did promise this. Sam made Dean promise not to try and break him out of the cage and instead go live a normal life with Lisa. Dean never extracted the same promise from Sam. Plus Dean broke that promise over and over until he did – literally – move heaven and earth to get his brother (well his soul) back. The fact that Sam didn’t return the favour does not reflect well.
You are right to say that – so far – it seems very clear from numerous sources that he didn’t look. Any mystery that is being alluded to doesn’t seem to apply to this aspect of the story. If that turns out to be true it will be very poor writing indeed IMO.
If Dean has also done some bad stuff to escape then I’m not sure that will soften the blow. ‘They are both as bad as each other’ is not a recipe for a strong brotherly bond or for a good show.
Yes, I’ve been making that point about the promise all over article comments. It’s worse than you say: the only promises they’ve ever made have to do with not recovering each other from specific situations in which recovering each other would require extreme and shady measures. Of course they never promised not to investigate if the other went missing and they didn’t know what had happened: that would be a supremely stupid promise.
The argument Singer’s using there would make sense if Sam knew that Dean was in purgatory and honored what he knew would be Dean’s wishes by not trying to get him out at risk to the world, but that’s clearly not what’s happening; Sam had no idea that Dean was in purgatory.
And, yeah, the fact that Singer and Carver are saying something about canon that is simply wrong, and putting considerable explanatory weight on something that NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED does rather undermine the “trust them, they know what they are doing” thing.
I think that the “promise” that Carver/Singer are referring to is from Season 1’s Dead in the Water, when Sam says “people don’t disappear Dean, other people just stop looking for them.” Now this isn’t exactly a promise per se, but it does feel like a Winchester family motto of sorts, and is possibly the obligation to search when one of them goes missing that RS and JC are referring to. Just a thought.
But what Singer and Carver are claiming happened is a promise NOT to search. They’re clearly tweaking the promise not to do risky things getting each other out of hell or the cage to fit this situation, but it really doesn’t make much sense. Not making a deal to bring someone back from the dead is very different from not investigating if someone vanishes.
I hope it means that they really do have Sam assume that Dean is dead, and have some actual reason to do so, but it doesn’t really sound like it.
There is NO promise to not look for each other if one mysteriously disappears. As has been stated, that would be an illogical and stupid promise for them to make. Would it have been understandable for Dean to throw up his hands and go on another hunt when Sam mysteriously disappeared in that cafe/diner? The only clue Dean had was the presence of sulfur. That’s it. The lack of clues certainly didn’t stop him from BEGINNING a search.
Here, Sam doesn’t even BEGIN an investigation. We’re not talking about Sam searching for months and then giving up; we’re talking about Sam leaving that building, getting in the Impala, and driving around aimlessly for months until he strikes a dog! That is ridiculous, insulting, and HUGELY OOC! That makes ZERO sense.
The boys have to operate under an unstated rule that they WILL search for the other if one goes missing. That rule is completely different than the rule that they will not kill themselves to rescue the other. Those two rules are different. It worries me that JC & Co. don’t see that difference.
I hope you will wait and watch before taking the teaser interviews as stating everything that happened and everything that Sam knew. Since the structure of this season is evidently to tell much of the story in flashbacks, I think it’s going to take some time before we really understand exactly what went on in Sam’s mind and precisely what he learned or thought he knew, and why. The deliberately provocative, often misleading shorthand of teaser interviews never conveys the essence, much less the details!
I’m inclined to wait and watch, and never rely too much on the little snippets the production uses to chum the waters and draw in the fannish prey. *wink*
I actually hadn’t read those spoilers; thanks for sharing. I’m still not seeing any character assassination or evidence of out-of-character writing. I don’t blame Sam or think he’s less for not looking for Dean considering the circumstances and all that’s led up to this. I still see him as the compassionate, loving brother he always has been. I think the tension between the brothers this season is going to be very compelling and hopefully lead to a more mature relationship, as Carver has spoken about. More mature may mean less co-dependent, which is perhaps a lot of what some fans are already chafing against. But I see it as healthy character growth. I’m looking forward to seeing how it plays out.
Word! Thanks for this contribution. You used a lot fewer words than I did to get to the same essence! *grin*
I would still take every spoiler/teaser interview with significant quantities of salt; interviews are always short, always simplify things, and intentionally stop short of crucial reveals.
I’m willing to wait and watch. 🙂
Thanks for coming and commenting! Your willingness to consider that there may be more going on than the spoilers suggest takes you out of the rant category in my book. 🙂 Spoilers and teasers are inherently deceptive, and drawing firm conclusions from them is always fraught with peril. My inclination is always to take them with salt, look for interpretations that seem rational as a way to avoid jumping prematurely to adverse judgments, and wait to watch the story play out.
But I will say that past actions don’t always predict future ones. That’s especially true when we learn from past mistakes. Sam has been through a lot in the past few years, and I think because of what he learned through those experiences, he would make different choices if presented with similar circumstances. Among other things, he’s learned that when he reacts out of desperation and anger, when he goes into obsessive lock-focus, he blinds himself to balance and to consequences, and becomes less human. I would hope that he would never again become [i]Mystery Spot[/i] Sam or [i]I Know What You Did Last Summer[/i] Sam; I would hope he’s learned better than that.
That said, I do not doubt Sam loves his brother with all his heart and was gutted by his loss. And I do think there’s more than spoilers have so far told us to his decision not to find and rescue Dean. I do trust Jeremy Carver to develop these characters in appropriate ways, taking into account what they’ve experienced over time. I’m looking forward to seeing them grow.
And hopefully we’ll both be satisfied with the way this season develops. I just hope everyone is willing to give it time to build.
Thanks again!
The problem is I had high hope for season 7 but SG disappointed me. I just don’t want to be disappointed again. My outrage is partly because I feel dissatisfied by season 7 and I have high hope that JC will redeem it. But then these spoilers came out and the outlook is bleak.
For someone who had been burned it is difficult to put trust on the same writing team even when the team leader is different.
Even if everything what you said is true It is not likely that it will be shown on screen. I just need prove that Sam really cares. How can I sympathize and feel Sam’s lost if the flashback only shows how Sam is HAPPY.
“Two side of a coin where one brother is HAPPY and the other is fighting for his life…”
That’s what the spoiler said or rather what Jared said. How can we understand that Sam really is devastated if the flashback will show him HAPPY? Not even have nightmares? Not even have a meltdown? Not even shed a tear over a slice of pie?
If the flashbacks only show him happy then I am not interested.
[quote]From the time the brothers first learned of Purgatory as the abode of monsters in Family Matters, they and Bobby searched for information on it with passionate intensity fueled by desperation as they tried to deal first with Eve and then with Castiel and the Leviathan. They found precious little lore on Purgatory for very good reason: by all accounts, Purgatory was much more sealed-off from Earth than Hell had ever been. In all their searching, they found only four leads. The first was the book taken from the dragons in Like A Virgin containing the basic instructions to open Purgatory specifically to release Eve, although it was missing the final page with the essential incantation. The second was the information related by Samuel in And Then There Were None, when he reported that every monster on Earth could be traced back to Eve, and Eve herself had last walked the Earth ten thousand years before. Tapping the same Campbell family archive that had informed Samuel, the Winchesters and Bobby learned in Frontierland that “the ashes of a phoenix can burn the Mother,†their third clue, which they used in Mommy Dearest to kill Eve. Finally, they learned in Let It Bleed that H.P. Lovecraft had opened a portal to Purgatory and realized they knew the creature that had come through – none other than Ellie Visyak. They acquired the same spell Castiel obtained and used to open the gate and absorb all the souls in Purgatory in The Man Who Knew Too Much. They used it themselves to reopen that door in Meet The New Boss so Castiel could return the souls, only to have the Leviathan remain.[/quote]
The lore and theories above are INVENTED by the writers during the making of season 6. We don’t know about H.P. Lovecraft opening Purgatory door before in previous seasons. Surely if they can INVENT those lore, they too can invent new lore for Sam to find. Maybe another horror script writer who knows a spell to locate another door. Another Purgatory monster that somehow slip through when Castiel open the door. This is a story and in a story universe writer is GOD. Kripke invented Chuck to be a prophet. Later on Kripke made Chuck to be God. All I am saying, if only the writer want to, they can easily write it so. Remember that we don’t know that there is a thing that’s called God’s tablet before season 7. But, poof suddenly there is one in a box of clay, prophet included, because Ben Edlund wrote it so.
So what if there’s no lead. They can easily invent it. From previous seasons Bobby and the Winchesters practically found lore dropped on their lap. I mean we suddenly have dragons?
Sam should know better that in Supernatural people don’t just go poof and disappear. There were splatter of Dick on the walls but did Sam ever check if there were splatter of Dean?
Sam cannot just assumed that Dean is dean and in heaven. There are psychic he can talk to. Missouri, That guy from Lily Dale. Just to have proof that Dean really is in heaven to satisfy his curiosity.
I also believe that Sam and Dean has this deep connection that no other brothers have. Can he not feel it deep in his heart, in his gut, in his very soul that his brother that he said to love so much is NOT DEAD? Sam has always been a psychic, right? Where is ability that go?
Let’s hope that everything you said in the analysis will come out on screen. Like previous season where they told us that Sam is suffering from hellucifer but did not follow through until ‘Repo Man’
I will still watch Dean’s story. Sam’s story? let’s hope JC pull it through.
[quote]This is a story and in a story universe writer is GOD….. All I am saying, if only the writer want to, they can easily write it so. Remember that we don’t know that there is a thing that’s called God’s tablet before season 7. But, poof suddenly there is one in a box of clay, prophet included, because Ben Edlund wrote it so.
So what if there’s no lead. They can easily invent it. From previous seasons Bobby and the Winchesters practically found lore dropped on their lap. I mean we suddenly have dragons?
Sam should know better that in Supernatural people don’t just go poof and disappear. There were splatter of Dick on the walls but did Sam ever check if there were splatter of Dean?
Sam cannot just assumed that Dean is dean and in heaven. There are psychic he can talk to. Missouri, That guy from Lily Dale. Just to have proof that Dean really is in heaven to satisfy his curiosity.
I also believe that Sam and Dean has this deep connection that no other brothers have. Can he not feel it deep in his heart, in his gut, in his very soul that his brother that he said to love so much is NOT DEAD? I will still watch Dean’s story. Sam’s story? let’s hope JC pull it through.[/quote]
I agree with a lot of this kaj. My issue is partly frustration with the ooc writing of Sam’s character. But it is also partly disappointment that they chose to go down this route in the first place. Why couldn’t they have written it so Sam tried everything then gave up? Or better still, why couldn’t Sam have rescued Dean? These are choices the writers have made that show 1 of our 2 heroes as incredibly brave, resourceful, dedicated to the cause, and the other as disloyal, selfish and uncaring (which is totally ooc). How can that be good for the show?
As a result of these decisions, they have introduced more angst / secrets into the relationship that is the heart of the show. I desperately want the show to get back to the ‘Sam and Dean united against the bad guys’ vibe of earlier seasons. I’m sick of the unbelievable conflict that keeps getting introduced only to be swept under the carpet again a la Amy. They can only do this so many times before the bond between the boys, and the glue that holds the show together, stops being convincing. When that happenes SPN is dead.
Having said all that, I am not pre-judging the whole season before it starts. I am still clinging on to the belief that the man who wrote MS and AVSC MUST know the characters better than these spoilers indicate. JC says ‘all is not as it seems’. It better not be. I’m very intrigued to find out what he means.
I hope you will be better pleased than you fear right now. Give the season a little time to build before you judge it, okay?
Of course I know the writers play God with the show’s universe and provide the lore they need to take the story in the direction they want it to go. My point in this article wasn’t to say there’s no way they could have written a different scenario; it was just to suggest ways the existing canon could support the direction they’re seemingly taking the story – although even that judgment about direction is being based on fragmentary, deliberately limited spoiler interviews.
I sincerely doubt we will see an unreservedly happy Sam with no care at all for his missing brother. Not going to happen. But life continues – that’s its nature – and the time comes when even after crushing loss, something makes you smile. And even when you feel guilty about having laughed, about having forgotten for a moment that you were grieving, another moment of joy lights up a corner and makes you smile again. Do you forget? Do you give away all your sorrow and loss? Of course not. But you do smile from time to time. You do connect with people. And sometimes, you’re happy, and over time, those times come more often. That’s how we’re built, if we’re emotionally healthy. You don’t stop loving whom you’ve lost, and if you don’t know what happened to them, you never stop wondering – but you do find a way to go on. If you don’t, you die.
A recurring theme in this show has been the brothers’ pathological co-dependence. They need to develop their individual selves – that’s maturity. That wouldn’t mean they would love each other any the less, but they need to be able to survive within themselves. And I hope we’re going to see that.
And I hope you recover your happiness with the show.
God bless you for writing this article. I feel like I’ve been typing out similar arguments (though certainly not as elegantly stated or thoroughly analyzed) ’til I’ve become blue in face.
[quote]Why couldn’t they have written it so Sam tried everything then gave up? Or better still, why couldn’t Sam have rescued Dean? [/quote]
We don’t know for sure that Sam didn’t rescue Dean. We have no idea what the twists and turns of this season will be. And it’s been said in other spoilers that tried everything and then gave up – but how much can he try if, as the author of the article so eloquently and thoroughly argues, there is no where to start?
[quote][quote]Why couldn’t they have written it so Sam tried everything then gave up? Or better still, why couldn’t Sam have rescued Dean? [/quote]
We don’t know for sure that Sam didn’t rescue Dean. We have no idea what the twists and turns of this season will be. And it’s been said in other spoilers that tried everything and then gave up – but how much can he try if, as the author of the article so eloquently and thoroughly argues, there is no where to start?[/quote]
“We don’t know for sure that Sam didn’t rescue Dean”
Sorry to say this, but Jared, JC and all the bloggers who saw ep1 yesterday consistenly and clearly state that – based on what we see in the early part of the season – Sam did NOT look for Dean, or play any role in rescuing him.
You are right to say we don’t know where the twists and turns might take us further down the line. I am pinning all my hopes on them. I would love nothing better than to see later on that eg Sam somehow sent Benny to help Dean, or opened the portal they came out through, or did some sort of deal to save Dean where his price is that he can’t take credit for his part in it. And something like that might come to pass. Fingers crossed. But as it stands we are left facing the very stark, and incontrovertible (based on clear statements from people who have seen the ep) fact that Sam did nothing to try to find/save his brother. I don’t buy the ‘no leads’ argument at all. You have to first look in order to find out that you have no leads. It seems he didn’t even do that.
I’m on board and excited for s8, but I have to admit that if it turns out to be true that Sam did nothing, I will never accept that as anything other than dreadful writing and a huge mistake that grossly undermines Sam’s character.
[quote] I would love nothing better than to see later on that eg Sam somehow sent Benny to help Dean, or opened the portal they came out through, or did some sort of deal to save Dean where his price is that he can’t take credit for his part in it. And something like that might come to pass. Fingers crossed. [/quote]
Hey, that’s exactly what I said I want in other thread. 😀 Wohoo!
[quote] I don’t buy the ‘no leads’ argument at all. You have to first look in order to find out that you have no leads. It seems he didn’t even do that.[/quote]
Remember in 6.01 when soulless Sam said that he don’t know where to start looking for the one who sprung him out of hell because ‘there’s no lead’. But lo and behold, there came Dean, and how he figured out that there’s something wrong with Sam from the get go. How he resourcefully contacted Death and make a deal with leverage. While Sam spent a year being a clueless robot. I did not put too much stock on Sam’s ‘no lead’ reasoning in S6 because he was soulless and he did not give a damn about his soul.
Again, the writer choose this reason to write Sam’s character such a way, because there’s no lead. Yet, Sam is souled now. He has his heart. He (supposedly) has his love for Dean. He supposedly has his instinct.
Now, if we are not shown where Dean was in the finale. Would we as fans just assume that Dean’s dead? I said No. I will keep questioning where Dean is and will not an ounce believe that he is dead if there’s no hard solid evidence that his soul is at least in heaven. And I am just a fan, not his brother.
Again, that psychic guy in Lily Dale? The country is vast and full of various people with many real psychic talent. I don’t believe it one second that the writer cannot come up with some psychic or faith healer or a mayan shaman descendant or something. Invent them, please. If there’s no lead then please create a lead for Sam to follow through. That’s not so hard is it?
I think the writer just choose to write Sam this way. To make him stupid. I mean soulless Sam said there’s no lead and he is supposed to be a better hunter. But Dean was the one who have the idea to ask Death for help. He was the one who noticed that there’s something wrong with Sam.
[quote]I’m on board and excited for s8, but I have to admit that if it turns out to be true that Sam did nothing, I will never accept that as anything other than dreadful writing and a huge mistake that grossly undermines Sam’s character.[/quote]
But yes, I am too still excited to see season 8 and will accept that the writers are really intentionally write Sam that way.
[quote]Sorry to say this, but Jared, JC and all the bloggers who saw ep1 yesterday consistenly and clearly state that – based on what we see in the early part of the season – Sam did NOT look for Dean, or play any role in rescuing him. [/quote]
I’m not sure what bloggers you are referring to, but I just read an article on the episode, and what it said Sam did after the S7 finale sounded pretty dang plausible and in-character to me. And after reading all the elements of that article, if I was excited before, now I am freakin’ [i]stoked[/i]. I can’t wait to see it for myself. 🙂
TOMORROW!!! 😀
Do you have a link to this article? I’d love to read it.
E, I’m going to see if it can be posted under the spoilers, as that’s probably a more appropriate place.
Great!
[quote][quote]Sorry to say this, but Jared, JC and all the bloggers who saw ep1 yesterday consistenly and clearly state that – based on what we see in the early part of the season – Sam did NOT look for Dean, or play any role in rescuing him. [/quote]
I’m not sure what bloggers you are referring to, but I just read an article on the episode, and what it said Sam did after the S7 finale sounded pretty dang plausible and in-character to me. And after reading all the elements of that article, if I was excited before, now I am freakin’ [i]stoked[/i]. I can’t wait to see it for myself. 🙂
TOMORROW!!! :D[/quote]
I have read every bloggers account / review of the ep, plus the interviews with Jared, JC and Bob Singer (which someone has quoted extensively from in this discussion thread if you want to check it out verbatim). They all unanimously present the same version of events which is that Sam didn’t look for Dean. He drifted around in the Impala, was a bit lost and lonely then met a girl, got a dog and settled down. Sorry but that is NOT a credible in character response from Sam. Not only didn’t he look for Dean, but he abandoned Kevin to the tender mercies of Crowley. How can anyone interpret this as a likely or believable response from Sam?
Of course things could turn out slightly differently over the next few eps. And I am not giving up, or dismissing the whole show. But this element of what we are hearing does not stack up no matter which way you slice it.
[quote]I have read every bloggers account / review of the ep, plus the interviews with Jared, JC and Bob Singer (which someone has quoted extensively from in this discussion thread if you want to check it out verbatim). They all unanimously present the same version of events which is that Sam didn’t look for Dean. He drifted around in the Impala, was a bit lost and lonely then met a girl, got a dog and settled down. Sorry but that is NOT a credible in character response from Sam. Not only didn’t he look for Dean, but he abandoned Kevin to the tender mercies of Crowley. How can anyone interpret this as a likely or believable response from Sam?[/quote]
Yes, those are all the things I’ve read as well, and more. I think some people focus more on certain spoilers than others. In any case, I don’t think it’s a fair characterization to say that Sam was just “a bit lost and lonely” after the finale. From what I’ve read, it’s a lot more than that. He struggles a lot more than that. I also read that the premiere is very equal in dealing with each brothers’ emotions.
We’ll have to disagree about whether what Sam did/does or didn’t/doesn’t do was a credible character response – I think along the same lines as the author of this article that it was/will be. My response echos yours – how could anyone interpret Sam’s actions as an unlikely or unbelievable response considering what he’s been through? I have nothing but understanding and empathy for this character, and don’t view him as any less loving of his brother for what he allegedly did/does. But in any case, I don’t think the entire season hinges on this one little plot point. I hope that, regardless, you become more excited about and hopeful in the season as it unfolds.
“I don’t think the entire season hinges on this one little plot point.”
It’s hard to see it as a little plot point, though. They are making Sam’s whole backstory for a year, which we’ve been told affects his outlook tremendously, hinge on it, and it clearly affects Sam’s relationship to Dean as well. I can buy Sam simply having a breakdown, but I don’t understand a Sam who has recovered to the degree to which he seems to have by 8.1 not returning to a search. When a point of characterization that has a huge impact on the life of one of the leads and on the central relationship with the show doesn’t make sense to me, that’s a hard thing to get past. Of course, seeing it play out on screen it may work much better for me, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to be feeling that if this emotional crux isn’t explained convincingly it’s going to be a serious, serious flaw in the season.
[quote] Of course, seeing it play out on screen it may work much better for me, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to be feeling that if this emotional crux isn’t explained convincingly it’s going to be a serious, serious flaw in the season.[/quote]
Exactly! The explanation for Sam not searching for Dean has to be more than great . . . . it has to be so convincing that the audience won’t think him selfish or callous.
From what I’ve read . . . . I don’t think they’ve come up w/a convincing reason. It sounds like Sam had no clues or resources (guess Sam can’t research anymore) so he just didn’t bother to look. That is awful.
Miles vary . . . but as someone who loves Sam, that is hard for me to swallow. I can’t think of any reason why he wouldn’t try to find Dean. I’m not saying he has to be successful, but Sam needs to at least try. I can only hope JC understands this and we learn later that Sam did look or assisted in getting Dean out of Purgatory.
Yeah. TBH, mileages vary, and it’s not like I’m not going to watch at least half the season to see how this plays out, but if it becomes clear that the answers aren’t better than indicated so far, I’m giving up on the show, and I’ll believe that Carver has failed catastrophically as showrunner. And it really doesn’t reassure me to have Singer say that Dean does bad things, too — it just makes me wonder whether I should be worrying about Dean as well. Unless something Dean did actively prevented Sam from searching, whatever revelations are to come from Dean’s side are simply irrelevant to the Sam crux.
Truer words were never spoken. I’m not sure why Dean’s “sins” in Purgatory absolve Sam of his “sins” topside. The two have nothing to do w/each other.
I don’t see myself not watching, but if it gets really awful and terrible, then I’ll have to reassess my commitment to the show. I have loved and dropped shows before when they “went off track” for me.
Honestly, this idea that Sam doesn’t even try to look for Dean is real upsetting and bothersome to me. It’s just not how I view Sam at all. It doesn’t ring true to me, and the reasons I’m hearing aren’t helping. It feels like Sam’s being trashed for no reason.
[quote]I don’t think the entire season hinges on this one little plot point. I[/quote]
The season, no, but Sam’s character does hinge on how he treats Dean and if he shows devotion to Dean or indifference to Dean’s situation. Not looking because Sam was hospitalized or in jail or physically or mentally incapable of looking for Dean would be understandable. Not looking because it’s too hard is not forgivable. And I LOVE Sam.
Dean’s adventures in Purgatory sound very interesting. Benny may well be a good character. Kevin could add a new dimension to the storyline. But I care about Sam being a good brother and I don’t see any way to rescue him from not even trying to find Dean OR for leaving Kevin with Crowley.
[quote]I don’t think the entire season hinges on this one little plot point. I hope that, regardless, you become more excited about and hopeful in the season as it unfolds.[/quote]
I’m sorry Bamboo, but I think this is anything but a ‘little plot point’. It is fundamental because it is about one of the main characters and affects the main relationship in the show. It is huge that they have written one of our shows heroes as selfish, uncaring and undeserving of a brother as dedicated and loving as Dean (btw I don’t believe that – but it is what this ooc response from Sam implies).
Geordiegirl1967,
[quote]I’m sorry Bamboo, but I think this is anything but a ‘little plot point’. It is fundamental because it is about one of the main characters and affects the main relationship in the show. It is huge that they have written one of our shows heroes as selfish, uncaring and undeserving of a brother as dedicated and loving as Dean (btw I don’t believe that – but it is what this ooc response from Sam implies).[/quote]
I don’t think that they are writing Sam as selfish, uncaring, undeserving, or somehow less dedicated and loving as Dean, nor do I think that is a fair and balanced interpretation of the spoilers or Sam’s mindset. (And why would they do that? It doesn’t make sense. They’ve never portrayed Sam that way before, so why would they start now? (Short answer – they’re not). It’s [i]your [/i] interpretation of the spoilers that Sam is somehow selfish and uncaring for not looking for Dean regardless of the reasons given, which you are entitled to, but please recognize that it’s just an interpretation. I know many people in other forums who, like me, have read all the spoilers and are excited about Sam’s character growth this season. Many more are wary, but choose to remain positive and give the story a chance to play itself out.
I called it a “little plot point” because the entire season does not hinge on it. Sam gets back in the game pretty quick, and the quest to close the gates of hell forever is obviously the big storyarc for the season, one which involves both brothers.
I think that for many of us it’s a big deal because it’s a character point, not a plot point. I enjoy the plots of Spn (with all their pretty, dangly ends, even), but I watch for the characters and relationships. If they don’t convince me that Sam is Sam and that his relationship with Dean is recognizable, whether he’s hunting or not hunting, closing the gates of hell or riding unicorns, the mytharc isn’t going to be enough to get me to watch. Not saying that they won’t convince me of those things, though I am apprehensive based on the info I have at this moment, but for me the entire season DOES hinge on it.
[quote]I think that for many of us it’s a big deal because it’s a character point, not a plot point. I enjoy the plots of Spn (with all their pretty, dangly ends, even), but I watch for the characters and relationships. If they don’t convince me that Sam is Sam and that his relationship with Dean is recognizable, whether he’s hunting or not hunting, closing the gates of hell or riding unicorns, the mytharc isn’t going to be enough to get me to watch. Not saying that they won’t convince me of those things, though I am apprehensive based on the info I have at this moment, but for me the entire season DOES hinge on it.[/quote]
Thanks ethelred. I was just about to respond almost word for word how you just have. For me all the mytharcs, bug bads, MOTW are just the backdrop to the story of Sam and Dean and their relationship. Good, emotionally engaging stories come from consistently written, 3D characters that you care about. If Sam’s character is inconsistently written, and in a way that shows him in a bad light and undermines the central relationship in the show then no amount of innovative story ideas, new characters, great lighting/music, cool stunts etc will induce me to care. That is a general point not just about SPN.
I have never said I am writing off the show. I never said I wouldn’t be watching. I never said I wouldn’t give it a chance. But I have said 2 very clear things that I stand by;
1) The real character of Sam would NEVER have reacted in this way. I challenge anyone who watches this show and knows these characters to say they predicted that Sam wouldn’t look for his brother (note I said wouldn’t LOOK, rather than wouldn’t SUCCEED).
2) Given that is the case, there are only 2 reasons for this. Either there is more to it than meets the eye, or it is rank bad writing. I am choosing to pin my hopes on the former, but if it turns out to be the latter there is no acceptable reason in my opinion. The list in the original article is just a brave attempt to rationalise out of character behaviour and none of it stands up to scrutiny.
Bamboo – you said “I don’t think that they are writing Sam as selfish, uncaring, undeserving, or somehow less dedicated and loving as Dean, nor do I think that is a fair and balanced interpretation of the spoilers or Sam’s mindset. (And why would they do that? It doesn’t make sense. They’ve never portrayed Sam that way before, so why would they start now? (Short answer – they’re not). It’s your interpretation of the spoilers that Sam is somehow selfish and uncaring for not looking for Dean regardless of the reasons given”
You ask ‘why would they do that’? I am asking myself the SAME question. Why? This isn’t Sam. How can they not know that?
So your comment above is a bit of a misinterpretation of what I am saying. I DON’T think Sam is a selfish uncaring brother. That is why his not looking for Dean makes no sense to me. And the interpretation isn’t mine it is what every Sam hater across the internet is now, and will continue, to say about him. The thought of having to defend him (when I can’t defend that decision he took) is pretty depressing frankly.
[quote]The thought of having to defend him (when I can’t defend that decision he took) is pretty depressing frankly.[/quote]I can understand the outside the bracket sentiment but then Sam haters will always think Sam is selfish whatever he does (One theory was Sam’s actions in Swan Song was selfish)…I can defend any decision which Sam takes so it does not matter to me now(what the show is planning to do)
[quote]I can defend any decision which Sam takes so it does not matter to me now(what the show is planning to do)[/quote]
I don’t think you can really say that you will always defend Sam no matter what he does. That can’t be right. We surely have to try to be a bit objective. And therein lies my problem. In my heart I want to defend Sam because I love the character. But my head knows a) what he did was wrong b) that he would never do it. So that pretty much leaves me trying to stick up for him to his many haters without any ammunition or conviction.
btw I am not in the ‘Sam always gets the worst deal’ camp. I honestly believe the writers have always been even handed with the characters. I have no time for Sam vs Dean arguments. I am not a Sam girl or a Dean girl. I love them both equally and I love their relationship / bond far more than I love either individually. Maybe that is why I find this spoiler SO depressing – because it not only undermines Sam’s character, but it undermines the strength of the relationship between D&S.
[quote]I think that for many of us it’s a big deal because it’s a character point, not a plot point. I enjoy the plots of Spn (with all their pretty, dangly ends, even), but I watch for the characters and relationships. If they don’t convince me that Sam is Sam and that his relationship with Dean is recognizable, whether he’s hunting or not hunting, closing the gates of hell or riding unicorns, the mytharc isn’t going to be enough to get me to watch. Not saying that they won’t convince me of those things, though I am apprehensive based on the info I have at this moment, but for me the entire season DOES hinge on it.[/quote]
Exactly . People’s concerns arent fannish over-reaction but a genuine concern for Sam’s character. It isnt like the show doesnt have a history of hurting Sam has a character because of a approach to a sl. We can all rationalize Sam not looking for Dean and throwing his phones away so even if young Kevin called for help Sam wouldnt hear it but unless under those premises the writers can present a deep geuine reason Sam will once again be dragged through the mud for no reason.
And in truth we all know if this was Dean we wouldnt be having these conversations and concerns. I want a brothers relationship and I want Sam to have a time where his actions arent called into question.I am hoping tonights premiere will be the start of putting Sam into context.
I’m happy to have you on my cheerleading squad for giving season 8 the chance to build and develop and show us depth and truth, and not to jump too fast in the (often misleading!) direction suggested by spoiler interviews!! 🙂
I couldn’t agree more w/you, Geordiegirl!
I would argue that EVERYONE – and I mean everyone – was shocked to learn that Sam hadn’t searched for Dean. Even those who hate Sam were surprised to read that he hadn’t searched for Dean. There is a reason everyone was shocked, and that’s b/c it is HUGELY OOC for the writers to say Sam [i]wouldn’t[/i] look for Dean. It just is. Sam would absolutely look for Dean, and I refuse to believe he wouldn’t.
I’m certainly not saying he would look for Dean forever – though I do believe he would not ever STOP the search completely – but he would indeed investigate and search. It is blatant character destruction, IMO, to state anything otherwise. And I completely understand that the story may very well change, but for now, I am upset w/the writers having Sam give up on Dean w/o even a good faith effort at finding him.
If I asked anyone at the end of finale what they thought Sam was going to do, I know for a fact that NO ONE would have guessed that Sam wasn’t going to look for Dean. No one would have said that b/c that goes against the character we’ve watched for the past 7 years.
Now that the spoilers are out, I understand that people are rationalizing Sam’s actions, but for me, his actions make no sense. As you said, walking away b/c he has no clues and it’s too difficult to search is simply not believable unless Sam had a mental breakdown or something. So far, there’s no evidence of that!
[quote]I couldn’t agree more w/you, Geordiegirl!
I would argue that EVERYONE – and I mean everyone – was shocked to learn that Sam hadn’t searched for Dean. Even those who hate Sam were surprised to read that he hadn’t searched for Dean. There is a reason everyone was shocked, and that’s b/c it is HUGELY OOC for the writers to say Sam [i]wouldn’t[/i] look for Dean. It just is. Sam would absolutely look for Dean, and I refuse to believe he wouldn’t.
If I asked anyone at the end of finale what they thought Sam was going to do, I know for a fact that NO ONE would have guessed that Sam wasn’t going to look for Dean. No one would have said that b/c that goes against the character we’ve watched for the past 7 years.
Now that the spoilers are out, I understand that people are rationalizing Sam’s actions, but for me, his actions make no sense. As you said, walking away b/c he has no clues and it’s too difficult to search is simply not believable unless Sam had a mental breakdown or something. So far, there’s no evidence of that![/quote]
You won’t be surprised to hear that I totally agree lala2.
You are right to point out how shocked everyone – Sam fans and haters alike – were about this info. In fact it is SO out of character, SO bizarre, SO weird, that I have to believe it is as obviously wrong to the writers as it is to the viewers, therefore there must be more to it.
I am sorry Bardivoce, but I think your list of reasons for Sam’s action are just post event rationalisations. I doubt before you knew these spoilers you would have made that list as your prediction of how Sam would respond. I doubt anyone would.
I think this discussion has illustrated what I see as the difference between fandom overreacting without reason, and genuine, informed, comment os something we know is going to happen. The former is kind of wearing to read all the time. The 2+2=137 tendency (eg a spoiler comes out about Sam and automatically that’s interpreted as Dean is being neglected, won’t get a decent arc etc) that drives some to freak out based on scanty information is irritating. So in most cases I am in total agreement with your article.
But this issue with Sam is different. It isn’t speculation. We know it for a fact. And we know Sam’s character. And we know the situation that led up to this response. Therefore it is perfectly valid to discuss, without having seen the ep, whether this is, or is not, consistent with his character.
So while I normally refuse to freak out over / overreact to spoilers, and have little patience with those who do, I think this specific case is different.
[quote]You are right to point out how shocked everyone – Sam fans and haters alike – were about this info. In fact it is SO out of character, SO bizarre, SO weird, that I have to believe it is as obviously wrong to the writers as it is to the viewers, therefore there must be more to it.[/quote]
I sincerely hope there is more to the story, otherwise, Sam will have, IMO, been ruined for NO reason. I’m very curious as to how this will all play out.
I guess one of the big differences between me and a lot of other fans is that I don’t try to predict where the story will go. It’s not my story to tell. I speculate sometimes about different roads the story might choose to go down, and why it could make sense to go that way, but I’ve never been wedded to it happening the way I thought it might. Sometimes they’ve gone my direction; more times, they’ve taken a sharp corner and opened a door I hadn’t guessed was there. And for me, that’s fun.
I do have one little quibble with your comment. You said this situation represented genuine, informed comment on something fandom [i]knows for a fact[/i]. Actually – it’s not. Until we see how the story actually shapes and learn the details of what Sam really thought and why he made whatever choices he did, all we’re going on are spoiler comments made in short interviews. The message nuggets contained in those comments were carefully chosen to tease, not to give away the story store. So I think we actually know a lot less than you believe we do.
And if we all believed exactly the same things, this would be a very boring world, wouldn’t it? Let’s see where this season goes, and if there’s more to it – and to Sam’s choices – than the spoilers have led you to assume.
I do thank you for sharing your thoughts. Discussion has value!
[quote]
I do have one little quibble with your comment. You said this situation represented genuine, informed comment on something fandom [i]knows for a fact[/i]. Actually – it’s not. Until we see how the story actually shapes and learn the details of what Sam really thought and why he made whatever choices he did, all we’re going on are spoiler comments made in short interviews. The message nuggets contained in those comments were carefully chosen to tease, not to give away the story store. So I think we actually know a lot less than you believe we do.
And if we all believed exactly the same things, this would be a very boring world, wouldn’t it? Let’s see where this season goes, and if there’s more to it – and to Sam’s choices – than the spoilers have led you to assume.
I do thank you for sharing your thoughts. Discussion has value![/quote]
Thanks Bardivoce. And thanks for your article. I find myself in the odd position of agreeing with your general position; wait and see, give writers a chance, don’t be pessimistic/negative based on scant info, let them tell the story etc while feeling very strongly on this particular point about Sam’s reaction.
Sorry to quibble with you, but we don’t only know about Sam’s decision from interviews, throwaway comments at cons etc. We know it from the accounts of the 1st ep from all the bloggers given an advanced screening of it on Monday. One of them even tweeted after the viewing something like ‘Sam Winchester is in big trouble with me’. You are right to say we don’t know the context, but there is no acceptable context IMO.
So I am of course going to watch, and see where the season goes, but if they don’t adequately explain Sam’s inaction (although I can’t think of any possible reason they could come up with that would be credible) or – fingers crossed – it turns out he did try but is saying he didn’t for some reason then fine. If they don’t I will never believe it as anything other than appalling, ooc writing.
[quote]walking away b/c he has no clues and it’s too difficult to search is simply not believable unless Sam had a mental breakdown or something. So far, there’s no evidence of that![/quote]
Not to beat a horse that’s already dead – but Sam DID have a mental breakdown in S7, and that is a big reason why I find his actions believable.
[quote]but Sam DID have a mental breakdown in S7, and that is a big reason why I find his actions believable.[/quote]
See this is iffy because i don’t know what Cas took..but again this ambiguity can be used by writers…I am not worried about the story they are giving Sam but how they are going to show it (as i believe Sam has suffered in this this field from my past experiences with the show)
Thanks for this.
I’m a fan of both brothers, but I admit I’m one of those fans really nervous for Sams character, and I did start to go down ‘that road’… I have taken myself in hand and decided to be more excited than anxious.
Thanks for outlining all the reasons supporting this.
I am looking forward to Wednesday!
Keep that bridle on the emotional horse, and don’t let it spook at shadows and spoiler noises! *grin*
Wednesday can’t come fast enough …
[quote]Keep that bridle on the emotional horse, and don’t let it spook at shadows and spoiler noises! *grin*
Wednesday can’t come fast enough …[/quote]
*Snort* That made me laugh! Thanks again, Bardicvoice.
We’re under 24 hours!!!!!!!!
Despite all my rant, I very appreciate your effort in putting this article together. It is very informative. Thank you Bardicvoice for a good and a very thought out article. 🙂
It’s just that I have different opinion and voicing my concern. That’s all. I don’t mean to undermine your article. We’re free to speak here, right? As long as we stay polite.
I’ll be honest, I don’t think the writers put half as much thought into Sam and his motivations as you have. From everything spoiled, it seems as if Sam had no leads or resources so he didn’t even try. That is awful to me. That is character assassination.
Like Geordiegirl, there is nothing anyone can ever say that will make it okay with me that Sam did not look for Dean absent a dead body. AFAIK, there was no body. The Sam I’ve watched for years is smart and resourceful. He doesn’t need allies or friends. He can research on his own. He can hunt on his own. Sam would not jut shrug his shoulders at Dean’s disappearance, and then get a dog and a girlfriend. For a show that is basically based on the love and connection between these two brothers, the writers have gone out of their way to further dismantle that relationship. Why? What purpose does it serve?
Yes, there can be more to the story but they are, IMO, taking the risk of losing some of their audience, esp. after last year’s crappy arc for Sam. I plan to watch but I know of several people who aren’t.
For once, I was hoping we could see Sam rescue Dean. Dean has rescued Sam on numerous occasions, has died for Sam on two separate occasions, but we can’t see Sam return the favor? Why not? Of course Dean will be closer to Benny, Castiel, or whoever – those are people he can trust to have his back. He can’t say the same for Sam. Why they would make that the case is beyond me!
Each year, the brothers grow further and further apart. It’s like the show is bored with that relationship, but that’s the ONLY relationship I truly care about in the end. If we’re 8 episodes in and Sam and Dean are miserable with each other, then what am I watching?
Thank you for the well thought out argument. While I don’t agree that Sam had no options to explore, I don’t think this is as bad and as damaging to Sam as people are making it out to be.
The parts that I think this explanation overlooks are:
– The leviathans – Dean and Cas disappearing at the same moment as Dick is a big clue that Dick did something to them. While Sam wouldn’t initially know what that was, there were lots of Leviathans left behind that he could capture and interrogate.
– Alpha vamp – If the Leviathans weren’t helpful in giving Sam any more clues, maybe Sam might have more luck with the Alpha vamp, who appears to know a lot about Purgatory and the Leviathans.
– The word of God – Crowley just about told Sam that Dean’s disappearance was connected to the word of God. While Sam doesn’t know much about the word of God, he knows Kevin has a connection to it, so Sam would need to begin his search by rescuing Kevin from Crowley. It was also apparent that Crowley knew a lot more about what was going on than what he was saying, so Sam could look for ways to make Crowley talk.
– Cas’s angel psychic power. Cas is an angel who can communicate psychically with other angels and who can enter humans’ dreams. Sam also used to have some psychic abilities himself. Sam could try to find another angel to try to communicate with Cas. It might not be possible because Cas is in Purgatory, but it would be something to explore.
All of these options might have very well resulted in failure, but the argument that Sam had no where to start looking isn’t true.
But with that said, I think people are blowing this out of proportion. I think Sam fans got their hopes up that Sam would be the hero this season, and this is very far from that. Also, the spoilers gives Sam haters a lot of ammunition to spin arguments about how Sam is a bad brother.
But I think it’s time to move past this and see what the season brings. This all might not come across as bad on screen as it looks now.
I have to disagree that he had nothing to go on. He knew they were sending Dick back to Purgatory. It stands to reason that that is where Dean also went. Sam is rational and I know he would at least think of this. If they show that he knew where Dean was but also that he couldn’t get him out, I will be okay with that. I am a Sam fan and I do not want them once again making him the selfish brother as they have done in the past. That will turn me off the show faster than anything. If they do this, I may not be able to stay with it. For me, JC has a lot of explaining to do if he goes this route.
I admit to being one of the fans in a dither about next season and Sam’s role in it. I’ve stated my feelings in other threads and won’t repeat them here.
The one thing that is true about the Supernatural fandom is that people are passionate about the characters, be it Sam, Dean, Castiel or Sam/Dean brotherhood or Dean/Cas profound bond or Sam/Dean/Cas and Team Free Will. The spoilers and sides for next season have concerned and even panicked many Sam fans and have Castiel fans concerned for his continued existence. This is either brilliant publicity that will create word of mouth and bring viewers back or a bad move as people (especially Sam fans) decide that the storyline is one step too far to even give a chance.
I hope the spoilers don’t backfire and bring down the ratings. I hope I can find some solace when I watch the show, but for now I’m bummed.
I think one of the points Bardicvoice was making was that oftentimes too much emphasis are put on spoilers, when we don’t actually know why they’re saying what or how what they say will actually look/come across when played out on-screen and over the course of the season.
[quote]I’ve never understood the fannish tendency to jump off cliffs making judgments about things we haven’t even seen yet…purely on the basis of short, deliberately vague interviews and attention-getting, tiny clips. Prejudging on the basis of incomplete information strikes me as short-sighted…My advice to fans (including me!) is always the same: don’t assume things in advance…and give the writers time in which to build and develop their story – don’t expect all the answers in the first five minutes, or even the first five episodes.[/quote]
I think that catering to fans who favor certain characters over others (as I believe happened toward the end of S7, much to the story’s detriment) actually ruins the show, which is why I wouldn’t be bothered if those who stop watching for such reasons do so. Let them go, I say, and let the writers craft a story free from fear of fan-backlash. It will likely be 10 times more creative and compelling, and true fans (fans of “The Show” as opposed to Sam fans or Dean fans or Castiel fans) will stick with it for the whole ride – and if it truly derails, well then and only then will I start making a fuss.
[b]Bardicvoice[/b] I appreciate your article. I believe there are geuine reasons for some Sam fans to be concerned despite well thought out arguments.
As someone who stopped watching it has been for me more a question of wether I would want to start and resume watching. The spoilers are disappointing and if this was Dean we wouldnt be questioning wether he looked or tried for Sam so because of this Sam is at a disadvantage to begin with.
It could turn out our concerns were wrong and it isnt has bad or it could turn out to be as awful as is feared . It would of been nice for once to go into a season not being uptight and worried about Sam’s character but being able to embrace what they were doing .
Bardicvoice, exactly this. I think this is what I’ve been attempting to put out there with my Annie Optimist comments I’ve been posting all over this site since season 7 ended. Every point you touched on, is/has been a thought I’ve entertained at some stage during this hiatus, and I think put far more eloquently than I could have, so thank you.
Generally I’ll read spoilers and speculate a little but I try not to make assumptions and go into a new season with my mind as open as possible. I’ve somewhat come to the conclusion that this is the writers’ story, not mine (I’m just very lucky that I get to watch it), and although I may not always agree with everything they do, I can either choose to enjoy the ride or stop watching the show. And since the latter won’t happen until the show stops, I’ve chosen to go with the former.
BTW, I love the title of your article-Janis Joplin, wasn’t it?
There’s a lot of really good and reasonable points in this article, and thank you for compiling them. But I confess it doesn’t really get at the root of my concerns. The problem for me is that you raise several scenarios under which Sam’s actions make sense and are not a characterization problem, but some and maybe all of those scenarios have actually been ruled out by spoilers.
For instance, I think almost everyone agrees that if Sam guessed or knew that Dean was in purgatory, he would have very good reasons for not trying to retrieve him. I think it would have made a lot of sense for show to go that route. Unfortunately, it seems to be confirmed that Sam had no clue that Dean was in purgatory, so that whole line of reasoning is irrelevant to his actual situation.
Likewise, Sam truly having reason to think Dean dead and assuming he was in heaven, and choosing not to retrieve him. That would make sense, too. But from the stuff about having no leads and no contacts, and the emphasis on Sam not LOOKING, it doesn’t seem they are going in that direction, either. From what we know of what Sam tells Dean, it’s not that Sam had a wrong belief about what happened and acted on that. It’s that Sam didn’t know what happened and didn’t investigate.
Which brings us to the no one to call, nothing to follow up thing. But as numerous people have pointed out, that simply isn’t the case. 7.23 (which was obviously written with a view to a storyline in which Sam did search for Dean; Carver has confirmed that he told Gamble that he was not taking that direction and choosing another) provided Sam with as many clues as the brothers usually have starting a case.
There are still some remaining possibilities, like a complete breakdown on Sam’s part. I do think they are going a little in that direction, but since they are also clearly paining a picture of Sam’s year as one of psychological recovery, that doesn’t explain the fact that Sam never resumes the investigation.
And all of this deals only with Sam not searching for Dean. I think most people get why Sam would abandon hunting, but many of us have a serious problem with Sam seeing Crowley, a demon Sam knows is capable of torture, kidnap an innocent 17 yo Sam had just rescued, and doing nothing to try to retrieve him (especially since Kevin, as the one who gave them the specs for the weapon that Crowley hinted was the cause of Dean’s vanishing, is at the top of the list of obvious leads Sam did in fact have). Ultimately, having Sam make at least some attempt at getting Kevin back may be a more real litmus test of Sam’s character than the searching for Dean business, and things don’t look hopeful on that front.
[quote]And all of this deals only with Sam not searching for Dean. I think most people get why Sam would abandon hunting, but many of us have a serious problem with Sam seeing Crowley, a demon Sam knows is capable of torture, kidnap an innocent 17 yo Sam had just rescued, and doing nothing to try to retrieve him (especially since Kevin, as the one who gave them the specs for the weapon that Crowley hinted was the cause of Dean’s vanishing, is at the top of the list of obvious leads Sam did in fact have). [/quote]
Yes, this too. Sam could go this route. I will see how the writer write Sam this season. And whatever they write, it shows their opinion about Sam’s character.
[quote]. . . But as numerous people have pointed out, that simply isn’t the case. 7.23 (which was obviously written with a view to a storyline in which Sam did search for Dean; [b]Carver has confirmed that he told Gamble that he was not taking that direction and choosing another[/b]) provided Sam with as many clues as the brothers usually have starting a case. [/quote]
That’s interesting and is another reason why this story hurts Sam. There were several clues for Sam about Dean’s location in the finale, and JC is chose to ignore them b/c he wanted Sam out of the action and off w/a girlfriend. Who cares if that really doesn’t make sense and is detrimental to Sam’s character . . . let’s do it anyway! We want the brothers at odds AGAIN – as if they haven’t been at odds enough times on this show.
This is my main problem w/this story. It is hugely OOC and goes against the basic premise of the show, which is the love and devotion between these two brothers! The bond and devotion needs to be reciprocal; it can’t always be one brother (Dean) sacrificing and saving the other (Sam). We need to see Sam do that for Dean once in awhile.
I do have sympathy for Carver on this; he had no input on the finale, and was left with no chance to set up the story he wanted to tell with what came before. I don’t know and I don’t want to speculate what went down with the whole change of showrunners there, but it result in something that made Carver’s job more difficult.
However, there are several routes to the Amelia storyline that would have worked with 7.23 (Sam searches a few months, hits a wall, meets Amelia; Sam searches and finds something that mistakenly convinces him of Dean’s death; Sam searches, guesses where Dean is, and won’t risk the world trying to retrieve him). The only thing the route they’ve chosen accomplishes that the other options don’t is giving Dean a good reason to be angry with Sam, and that narrative motivation doesn’t exactly reconcile me to the extreme out of left fieldness of the move in light of what we know about Sam. For goodness sake, even if they wanted Dean to be justifiably angry at Sam, it’s not like Sam doesn’t have plenty of real flaws and isn’t capable of plenty of actions that would justifiably piss Dean off. Why choose a cause of anger that makes no sense?
That’s why, despite flat contradiction of there being another possibility, I still, even now, don’t quite believe this.
Not only that, but why does Dean have to be angry w/Sam? Why does that have to be the conflict? There are other ways to create conflict btw the boys.
And as you said, you can still have Amelia and Sam searching for Dean. Sam could search and then meet Amelia. I always thought the show could have followed the plot of “The Vanishing” w/Keifer Sutherland and Sandra Bullock. He searches for her for years, meets someone new, and stops the search. He still thinks about Sandra’s character but he is not obsessed w/her disappearance as he was before. A similar thing could have played out for Sam this year.
I didn’t know that about Sera’s intentions, but it makes sense.
[quote]
This is my main problem w/this story. It is hugely OOC and goes against the basic premise of the show, which is the love and devotion between these two brothers! The bond and devotion needs to be reciprocal; it can’t always be one brother (Dean) sacrificing and saving the other (Sam). We need to see Sam do that for Dean once in awhile.[/quote]
I totally agree with this. I had thought that the writer of some of the best brotherly moments / eps in the show would understand this. I still hope he does, but he has chosen not to take the opportunity to allow Sam to do for Dean what Dean has done for him so many times – which I think (sorry to sound like a stuck record) is completely ooc, and also a crying shame. It would have provided much needed balance and showcased – for the first time in a long while – just how much these boys mean to each other.
I see some posters (not here) saying they don’t believe in the brothers bond any more. That it is no longer the main draw in the show. That they prefer to watch Dean’s story, or want Dean/Cas to be the main focus, or can’t wait for Benny or Cas to take Sam’s place. I disagree strongly with these people, but it is getting harder and harder to argue against them when the writers make some of the choices they do – and constantly pull them apart / test them / introduce conflict instead of building up the bond between Dean and Sam.
I don’t have any problem at all with Sam not looking for Dean. I also think this is completely in character for Sam, as well as a good place for Sam to be. I fully expect twists and turns in this season; and I fully expect Sam to recognize things in himself and to show some character growth after he does that comes directly out of this story this season.
I don’t need the brothers in each others hip pocket all the time. I like the fact that they have lead totally different lives. I think the love story this season is with the right brother…although I totally hate the idea of a love story.
I do understand the worry by some fans. I had exactly the same worries for Dean when the Lisa love thing was announced, and it turned out to be the most boring, awful thing SPN could have ever done to Dean’s character, IMO. I do believe Sam’s will be done much better and, more importantly, done for some reason that includes Sam in the the story. Carver is aware of the fact that there are two leads. That, too, will be a step forward over past seasons, as far as I am concerned.
That was beautiful. Thanks so much for the depth of your analysis, which is actually a really great way to start the new season, thinking maybe this is what went on with Sam. I have been staying of this site and ignoring my Google alerts because I did not want any spoilers at all. Unfortunately, try as I might, I still heard some things, but I love that you didn’t make it any worse than what I already knew. You took the info we all knew and skillfully backed up your theory. Brava.
I am so freaking giddy for tomorrow, it’s insane. I allowed myself to read the first article ever talking about this first episode, which at this point didn’t spill much more than I already reluctantly knew. That got me super excited and now yours just added a whole emotional depth to it than what I think will already be present in this episode. Sounds like we are FINALLY going to get a little demonstration of the guys maturing emotionally and just getting it a little better than before and that will have made so much in the past worth it to me, although I had no issues with the past few seasons. I’m as in love with this story as I’ve ever been. Now I think it’s about to get deeper and that is simply thrilling.
Ugh. Yes. all of this. Though I found myself firmly on teh “Hold your horses and calm yo tits” side of fandom from before, I’m further relieved by this analysis. Everything you say holds true and makes sense, and makes me feel so bad for Sam – knowing how Dean will react to his ‘abandonment’ and ‘betrayal’. (Oh, Dean.) I also hope you’re right in assuming that once past those differences, Dean and Sam will wind up more balanced and okay than before. They deserve it.
I am also so grateful for this interpretation as the comments on some of the posts yesterday were so depressingly negative that I was almost beginning to believe them.
In the Supernatural universe there are many much worse things than being dead and in heaven. I have thought prior to this that the situation with Sam’s soul did have a solution that was never brought up. If he got his soul back and then died there was no reason to believe that it would go back to hell and in a way this is what you are suggesting here.
As of now I can’t see a better interpretation of Sam’s actions so if I end up thinking the show’s solution to all this is inadequate I am just going to use yours instead 😀 While it is an important issue (and I don’t want to see Sam yet again perceived to be on the wrong side of everything) it isn’t (to me) the be-all and end-all of the story.
Yay, new season tomorrow! Does anyone know if it is going to be online anywhere? I will watch it live but I was on Amazon and the CW website last night and they weren’t being very helpful as to availablity
Thank you Bardicvoice for such a well thought out and reasoned analysis into Sam’s plight for the start of season 8. It has helped me to look more calmly at things to a certain extent, but although I agree with most of what you are saying, I have many of the same issues as other posters above. I respectfully disagree that Sam had no place to look and no leads to pursue after Dean disappeared. As others have said, its not a complex leap to get from exploding Dick to Purgatory, and Sam KNEW that Crowley had Kevin. Two good places to start IMHO. We need a good reason WHY Sam choose not to look for Dean; a better one than he met a girl and fell in love. I think the majority of fan reaction hinges on this one point. I could certainly understand it if Sam left hunting, but to not even look for a brother who sold his soul for him, who flatlined himself and made a deal with Death to get Sam’s Soul back? Nah, can’t buy it. Sam is the guy who said “people don’t disappear, other people just stop looking” and “you know me, you know why, I’m not leaving my brother out there.” For Sam to not even look for Dean, is contradictory to his character, period.
I too am hoping that JC’s comments about perception will in fact lead to a reveal that Sam did do something about Dean and had to hide it for various reasons. That to me would be a direction that the show could go in that I would understand and support. If it does turn out in the long run that Sam just dropped everything and moved on, I will be sorely disappointed.
And I may be remembering this wrong, but isn’t the Alpha Vamp a purgatory native? I thought all the Alpha’s were. And I believe that both Sam and Dean know this. The most difficult part of opening the door to Purgatory is to secure the blood of a Purgatory native. If the Alpha Vamp is that, there is a clear cut avenue to peruse, and they even had his blood at one point.
Despite my insecurities regarding the spoilers, my firm belief is that Sam is more involved than it seems to appear, (this show is notorious for messing with it’s fans). How that will play out remains to be seen. I only hope that Sam as a character can survive the initial fallout, as many fans are sure to use (and already have used) these early details to vilify his character.
I don’t have time to address everything – sorry! – but one thing I did want to comment on: we don’t know that the Alphas are Purgatory natives. Crowley firmly believed they knew how to get to Purgatory, but we never learned why or how. I personally doubt that they were Purgatory natives precisely because we know they were created by Eve, and she used humans as her base stock the same way Lucifer used a human to make his first demon. I think they had more knowledge than their children precisely because they were most directly connected with Eve, but I think she made them on Earth some ten thousand years ago.
If we’re lucky, we may learn the truth. “See you next season,” as the Alpha vamp said … *grin*
Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this. From when I saw the very first spoiler thread that caused all this fan reaction, I’ve been screaming in my head that we should just hold on till we’ve seen everything, that maybe Sam thought Dean was indeed “physically destroyed”, that Crowley had not stated cut and dry that Dean was in Purgatory or dropped an extremely useful hint (all he said was that god weapons had an unexpected result and how many god weapons have the Winchesters ever used?) that even if Sam had indeed realized Dean was in Purgatory there would be no way for him to get in, or to get Dean out, and that he had no one to turn to, and that he’d probably reached his emotional limit, as you said. And also that if he indeed could not find Dean or believed him dead, he’d be right to leave the hunting life behind because he’s only ever motivated to be in it because of his love for Dean or something darker, like revenge. You’ve said everything I’ve wanted to say, and beautifully. I’ve always, always loved and defended the character of Sam Winchester, I get why the fans leaning more towards him is in a dither and it’s true that my heart will be broken if they brutalize his character, but if he did what he did because he had to, (and my heart tells me so), then I’ll be more than happy to accept it as character growth.
Jeremy Carver did Mystery Spot Sam and Point of No Return Sam, both facets of him that I’ll always remember, so I have faith.
Seriously, thank you for writing this. I almost cried with relief that I got to read this, and not all the rage and confusion and hurt before we go into the season.
I love reading your essays, they are so well written. I so agree with what you said about Sam doing what he thought was best for him. He’s left all alone with no clue whatsover to what happened to his brother. When Dean went to Hell, he did his utmost to try and retrieve him, just like Dean tried when Sam went. It’s what they do. But in this instance I understand why he wouldn’t.
I’m a firm believer in giving a book, a movie or a show a chance before passing judgment. So, even though I read all the spoilers and the advance synopses we get, I will wait (impatiently) for tomorrow nights premier before I react. Although, like a favourite child, this show can do no wrong in my eyes, that’s why my entire family never ask me for my opinion on anything anymore, because I like everything!
What a breath of fresh air, Mary! Thank you so much for this thoughtful article. It’s been so depressing reading all the negative opinions since spoilers appeared. And the negative posters never seem to realize it is themselves who create the dissension. I don’t know if this occurs with other TV shows as I’ve never been that interested in any as much as I am with this one. Sam is ooc, Dean is ooc, Sam doesn’t care, Dean likes Cas more than Sam, Lisa was horrible, Sam can’t have a girl etc etc. They are guys! Let them have their loving women sometimes. You know it won’t last. 😕 (I hope it does though, in the very last episode ever)
To me, you make perfect sense of what we only know a tiny bit about so far. They aren’t going to give away the whole season’s plots before it even begin. Thank God it is beginning it’s eighth season! Who ever would have thunk it? Our little show!
I love the brothers together, whether there are others involved or not. Think of the uproar when Ellen and Jo first appeared They were mostly hated by the majority of online fans. I’m missing them a lot. I loved Lisa for her kindness to Dean and also because she is a decent loving person who treated him the right way and I believe like you that the love grew over the year he was with them. “The best year of my life” she told him. Bless her and Ben and I wish they could still be connected in some way. Did that diminish Dean’s love for Sam? No way. And Sammy with a good woman wouldn’t do that to Dean either.
Wait and see and then freak out and stop watching, if that is the way to go for you.
Me, I’m in it til the very end and I love Jeremy Carver’s previous episodes and will trust him to do the right thing for the brothers we all love, in our own ways. 😉
And Mary, I’ve missed your writings for mostly a year and hope you will be able to find the time to write more now. 🙂
I am sorry Bevie, but I am going to have to agree with Sharon here. To dismiss other views except your own as “negative” and somehow inferior is close minded. I would like to feel that I can come to this site to discuss my views and feelings about how the show is progressing without having by opinion so carelessly dismissed as “negative” and therefore not worth anything. Perhaps this is not the impression that you thought you were giving in your post, but it is the overwhelming impression that I took from it.
I don’t believe I was addressing any particular poster in my post.
I was giving my impressions, as you all do, and I do have my opinions, as you do. I am allowed, no?
The negative posts are depressing for me to read, and I have enough real life stuff to depress me, so I try to avoid those that do so.
So, I too am sorry that you took my opinions as dismissing other views or yours in particular. I am unable to do that. And if you think I am “close-minded” because my view is different I can’t help that.
I am “close-minded” in that I do tend to avoid posts that will upset me and ruin my good mood. If so, I admit it. But don’t take it personally.
I don’t know what your opinion is of the progress of the show as I haven’t gone back to see your previous post. I do believe the first 3 seasons were superior to the following 4, but things have never been so bad that I would stop watching. I’m always hoping to get back the same feel of the first 3 for the brotherly relationship, the little things that showed the love between them, a look, a pat, words not even needed. I would be ecstatic if that came back to the show. (and I want Bobby back) 😛
Peace! 🙂
Hi Bevie, nice response.I also wanted to add that you never said anywhere in your original post that the comments you refer to are not valid. You have as much right to say how you feel about what you deem negative posts as the people making the posts. You were not disrespectful in the least. As someone who may have contributed to the negativity a time or two myself, I took no offense.
While I agree with Sharon’s post below that some of the concerns about the upcoming season are entirely valid (i.e. reasonable), I can’t help but agree with this:
[quote]And the negative posters never seem to realize it is themselves who create the dissension.[/quote]
I don’t think saying that is dismissive of others’ views, though it may be something many don’t want to acknowledge. The truth is that for some, though certainly not all, [b]every[/b] spoiler is read and interpreted in light of their pessimism, and they only focus on the negative either while either minimizing or failing to acknowledge other positive points. They speak as if there’s no hope for the show, as if the people who’ve worked so hard on it and are banking on its success don’t even care about it and would willingly commit character assassination, like these dedicated professionals have no idea what they’re doing. They also harshly and often myopically pre-judge what will happen based on incomplete information that hasn’t even been played out yet. It’s not those who have valid concerns that are frustrating – it’s the ones repeatedly espousing doom and gloom in the comments of every single article that are, because it’s so negative and pessimistic about a show we all supposedly love.
I’m sorry but how can you say anyone’s opinion is not valid. It may not be “valid” to you but, clearly, it’s valid to the person who wrote the opinion.
Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. There is no right or wrong here. If I wish to interpret the spoilers in the most negative light possible, that doesn’t make me close-minded or wrong or not a true fan or anything. It’s just my opinion. If I choose to interpret the spoilers in the most positive light possible, that would be okay too.
A message board should welcome ALL opinions. If some are too negative or positive, then those posts can be skipped/ignored without mocking or minimizing another person’s concerns, worries, etc.
I see what you’re saying – I don’t mean to suggest that opinions should not be shared just because they may be negative. I do think there is a difference between valid (i.e. reasonable) opinions and ones that have little or no objective or factual basis, or ones that are skewing things based on a relentlessly pessimistic perception. At the same time, I realize that I am not the opinion-police. 😛 People are going to say what they feel, and they have a right to. It is frustrating though, and that’s just [i]my[/i] opinion. It’s hard to skip those posts when they pop up in my inbox. I just hope everyone can find something they enjoy about this season – even the most die-hard pessimists. I still have faith in this show.
With all due respect negative posts and positive they are both equally valid esp from the pov of that person. Some have liked the spoilers , some are unsure and others dont like them they honestly believe that Sam not looking for Dean is out of character there is nothing wrong in that.
If you dont want to read the negative which is fair enough maybe bypassing those posts would be the best idea.
Amen and AMEN! Thanks for your voice of logic and reason! I agree 100%.
Bardicvoice. THANK YOU, THANK YOU. It has been hard to remain optimistic. The let’s just wait and see position didn’t go over so well. People are just so worried that Sam will be portrayed as a bad, uncaring brother! I feel for those people, but it gets kind of draining day after day. I have never thought of either brother as “bad”. Made some bad decisions, yes. So I will look forward to tomorrow with the hope for a great season. I will asscess things as they unfold. And SAM-nothing but love for ya.
Thank you for all the thought you have put into this article, but I have to disagree with your argument that Sam had reason to stop looking. This is SPN and no one was ever sent somewhere that they didn’t end up elsewhere. Logical Sam should have known that Dean went somewhere, and probably somewhere terrible and dangerous. Purgatory would be the logical place as it is where the leviathan were from. Sam also had access to all of Bobby’s books, a pretty considerable library. He did have resources and he is resouceful enough to find new ones, so why didn’t he?
For Sam to not search for his brother and leave Kevin in Crowly’s hands, well, I can only think, and hope, that there is a twist to this story and that Sam can come back from this terribe decision. Dean retired because Sam made him promise to, he was trying to stay true to his promise. Sam is retiring because he is all alone? Because it’s too hard to look? Really? Not very heroic. I just hope there is more to the story because otherwise, Sam look is going into the season looking pretty bad to me.
I’ve run out of time to respond to individual comments, and for that I apologize, but I thank everyone who has come and participated in the discussion! Everyone’s voice is welcome, and this has been a polite roundtable; that’s a pleasure.
We won’t know until sometime later into the season whether people worried about the spoilers will be reassured and ultimately satisfied with the direction of the show, or will consider their anxieties proven real. I just hope that everyone will watch with open eyes, open hearts, and open minds, and give Jeremy Carver and his team the chance to show off their whole building, not judge the whole just on the atrium of their story.
Truth in advertising time: My tendency will always be toward optimism in favor of things I love, and I love [i]Supernatural[/i], Sam, and Dean. With that said, I will call out things that don’t work for me. I’m always honest in my criticism. But I will also always pay the writers the simple courtesy of believing they truly want and intend to tell the story of Sam and Dean, the genuine Winchester brothers we have known and loved from the beginning. I will never assume or ascribe to a writer the deliberate intent to assassinate or tear down one or the other of the brothers’ characters, because I candidly do not believe that’s on the radar of this show about two equally important brothers who love each other even when they’re angry and fiercely disagreeing with each other. Readers who are already convinced in their own minds that one or the other brother is consistently being torn down or favored will never enjoy what I write. Keep that in mind.
We’ll get our first genuine glimpse of the story – not just the spoilers!- on Wednesday night. And I, for one, can’t wait!!
Thank you, Bardicvoice, for this excellent, thorough, and well-reasoned essay. I see plenty of reason here to be optimistic about the story ahead, for both Sam and Dean.
Thanks for this! It has me even more excited about tomorrow night. I admit to being worried about Sam’s actions, or lack thereof, from what the spoilers have suggested, but your ideas make sense to me, and I’m ready to see how things play out. As long as the boys are still on my TV with new stories to tell, I’m a happy girl!
Ok…I have a theory. IN season 3 Sam tried to be like Dean and failed miserably. Sam has for so many years tried to be who his father and Dean has wanted him to be. And he has always failed. So Sam realized he can’t be anyone other then who he is…..and he had to figure that out. he isn’t Dean..superhunter. Able to talk Angels and monsters into turning against their kind; talk Death itself into giving Dean whatever he wants…to move heaven and Earth to doing what he wants.
Sam is human. He is Sam. He has to stop trying to be what Dean wants him to be…another SUper HUnter. He tries to live up to what Dean wants and he fails spectaculary, nearly destroying the world; destroying any trust/faith Dean had in him.
So he is going to be Sam and he’s gonna figure out what that means, and appartenly Sam admits to himself Hunting will never be a part of who he is like it is Dean. He doesn’t live and breath hunting. Even though he will appreciate the importance of hunting he will never love it like Dean. And hunting and only hunting will never be enough to make him feel whole and real.
Kind of sucks for Sam being in a show called Supernatural but perhaps this is where Carver is going with Sam?
[quote]Ok…I have a theory. IN season 3 Sam tried to be like Dean and failed miserably. Sam has for so many years tried to be who his father and Dean has wanted him to be. And he has always failed. So Sam realized he can’t be anyone other then who he is…..and he had to figure that out. he isn’t Dean..superhunter. Able to talk Angels and monsters into turning against their kind; talk Death itself into giving Dean whatever he wants…to move heaven and Earth to doing what he wants. Sam is human. He is Sam. He has to stop trying to be what Dean wants him to be…another SUper HUnter. He tries to live up to what Dean wants and he fails spectaculary, nearly destroying the world; destroying any trust/faith Dean had in him. So he is going to be Sam and he’s gonna figure out what that means, and appartenly Sam admits to himself Hunting will never be a part of who he is like it is Dean. He doesn’t live and breath hunting. Even though he will appreciate the importance of hunting he will never love it like Dean. And hunting and only hunting will never be enough to make him feel whole and real. Kind of sucks for Sam being in a show called Supernatural but perhaps this is where Carver is going with Sam?[/quote]theory looks good
I think that’s an excellent theory, Amy, and very much where Carver has hinted at taking Sam. Sam has never truly enjoyed the hunt, not when he’s been in his right mind, not like Dean has. Sam’s always seen it for it was – never romanticizing it the way Dean did. Sam’s always hunted for reasons outside himself, never personal fulfillment (very selfless, if you think about it). And there is nothing wrong with Sam feeling that way. He brings a unique and very much needed perspective to the show.
[quote]So he is going to be Sam and he’s gonna figure out what that means, and appartenly Sam admits to himself Hunting will never be a part of who he is like it is Dean. He doesn’t live and breath hunting. Even though he will appreciate the importance of hunting he will never love it like Dean. And hunting and only hunting will never be enough to make him feel whole and real. [/quote]
That’s a very accurate articulation of Sam’s mindset.
I’ve always thought Sam hunting was very heroic and very selfless. He’s always put aside his own happiness; his own wants and desires to be with his brother and hunt. Dean doesn’t understand this as he’s mostly always loved hunting…he’s doing what he loves.
I geuss I’d love too See Dean understand that as much as he felt he didn’t fit in ‘normal’..and felt out of place there, so is it with Sam and hunting.
[quote]Ok…I have a theory. IN season 3 Sam tried to be like Dean and failed miserably. Sam has for so many years tried to be who his father and Dean has wanted him to be. And he has always failed. So Sam realized he can’t be anyone other then who he is…..and he had to figure that out. he isn’t Dean..superhunter. Able to talk Angels and monsters into turning against their kind; talk Death itself into giving Dean whatever he wants…to move heaven and Earth to doing what he wants.
Sam is human. He is Sam. He has to stop trying to be what Dean wants him to be…another SUper HUnter. He tries to live up to what Dean wants and he fails spectaculary, nearly destroying the world; destroying any trust/faith Dean had in him.
So he is going to be Sam and he’s gonna figure out what that means, and appartenly Sam admits to himself Hunting will never be a part of who he is like it is Dean. He doesn’t live and breath hunting. Even though he will appreciate the importance of hunting he will never love it like Dean. And hunting and only hunting will never be enough to make him feel whole and real.
Kind of sucks for Sam being in a show called Supernatural but perhaps this is where Carver is going with Sam?[/quote]
Sorry Amy but this makes no sense to me. As an explanation of Sam’s thought processes and inner feelings there is something in it. But as an explanation / excuse for not looking for his brother I don’t think it holds water at all.
Might Sam be less committed to hunting than Dean? Probably. Might he still harbour a long hidden desire to live a normal life? Less certain but maybe. Does any of that excuse him abandoning Kevin and not looking for the brother that has taken care of him his whole life? Not in my opinion. He could have found Dean then said ‘I’m out’. Instead he abandons him. The Sam we’ve seen on our screen for 7 years would NEVER do that.
So all I can think is that either it is rank bad writing from people who should know Sam’s character better, or there is more to it. Before watching the ep I was putting my money (and hopes) on the latter. Having watched it I’m not so sure. There was not the slightest hint given that Sam’s story was anything other than the gospel truth. Very disappointing.
Carver has written some of the best Sam-moments/episodes in the series’ history. It is implausible, IMO, that he would not know Sam’s character. I would expect that from other writers, maybe, but not Carver.
I’m curious, Amy, where do you think that will leave Sam on SPN? I can’t see any way for Sam to fit into the show then.
I’m not Amy, but the spoilers leave me feeling that Sam doesn’t fit in the show anymore. Maybe he hasn’t fit for a long time and they are finally telling the end game to write Sam off.
[quote]I’m not Amy, but the spoilers leave me feeling that Sam doesn’t fit in the show anymore. Maybe he hasn’t fit for a long time and they are finally telling the end game to write Sam off.[/quote]
Fortunately this isn’t a realistic proposition. There is no way SPN could / would continue without Sam. Both Js have said they won’t do it without the other. If Sam doesn’t fit into the show there is no show. That isn’t my opinion, it is what the actors have stated categorically.
I do know that it is virtually impossible that Sam will be written out, but 3 years of Sam doesn’t love Dean or care about saving people would be worse than Sam being dead or off the show.
Sorry, I’m really bummed by the Sam developments.
[quote]3 years of Sam doesn’t love Dean or care about saving people would be worse than Sam being dead or off the show. [/quote]
Three years of Sam not loving or caring about saving people? This is the Sam who jumped in the pit to save the world in S5, who agonized over what his soulless self did even though it wasn’t his fault in S6, who has shown concern over Dean’s waywardness and recklessness in many ways throughout, who sped through stoplights to get to his brother once he found out the Amazon’s intentions in S7’s “Slice Girls” – I could go on and on. The Sam the show portrays IS the real Sam, and he DOES show love and concern for his brother and the world. Granted, I understand concerns about the heat Sam got in the premiere – and I can’t say anything to that other than I truly hope you will keep watching and give Carver a chance to tell his story. I think it was pretty obvious in the premiere that both brothers are hiding significant bits of their past. However – and I realize this may come across as forceful – while I respect your right to express your opinion that Sam has been portrayed as unloving and uncaring for three seasons, to suggest that the writers are trying to write the co-star out of the show is tantamount to slander, IMO.
If i HAD seen your reply before seeing the premier I may have thought something else bu8t having seen the premier I will have to agree with Percyowner that they are trying to write Sam out of the show.
I know Georgiegirl down thread said tnhat without Sam there is no show because each J has said they wouldn’t do the show without the other. BUt writers have a way around everything. The premier proves it in spades.
Saddle Sam with some civilian…who is going to be Sam’s ONLY interactions. while Dean becomes the Three muskateers with Benny and Castiel.
Funny thing…Supernatural finally has that ‘love’ triangle Gail Berman always wanted for Supernatural. Dean…Benny…Castiel. Sam has become Bonnny from TVD….needed onloy when plot requires him.
I was not going to say anything on this subject, at least not until I saw the episode. Generally speaking, a lot of what has been said here is considered negative by me and I really prefer not to go so deep because I simply love this show, twists and turns, erratic behavior and all. So because I think of some things as negative, I prefer to just stay out of the discussion…usually. I do not have a PhD in Supernatural. Comparatively speaking, I only have an Associate’s in the minds of many, I am sure. So I know someone will shoot down my theories. That’s ok. I have no intention of arguing any point I make.
Anyway, I think that to say that anything Sam is doing is out of character is asking too much of his character. If anything, I think this is precisely what he might do, emphasis on the word “might.” Dean has been black and white from the very start. Sam has not. Sam has only been predictable in his unpredictability. Sam is not known for always making the wisest choices. I mean come on. Drinking demon blood? Sex with a demon? In his souless time I know he was not thinking straight and I know he was with his blood family, but they were clearly doing things that were questionable yet he was right along with them because he had no one else. That is until Dean showed up and started questioning. How many times has Sam run off from Dean when he was angry? Separating himself in his time of confusion is what he often does! But at the same time if he didn’t do what he did, that wouldn’t shock me either because I just think the man does not always do what we think he will or should.
So in my neophyte opinion, I think a lot of folk are being too hard on him and pressuring him to be someone he has never been. Yeah, yeah. I know Dean said that they promised each other not to look for each other yet they always looked for each other out of their undying love for each other, but you know what I think about? The moment Dean killed Dick. My understanding is that they thought they were KILLING him, not sending him back to purgatory. I’m trying to remember what I thought in that split second after the pulse and I remember being stunned. Now if I take myself out of the equation as a viewer who saw what happened next and try to put myself in the situation, I am guessing I would have stayed stunned for awhile. I am guessing I would have thought he killed the man and so with his demise must have come Dean’s demise too. Yeah, I KNOW Sam usually digs deeper and all that, but if you think your brother is dead and you just went through all this stuff with your ghost of a surrogate father…I don’t know. I just think people are trying to make Sam out to be, as I said, predictable. I just want to keep giving him the room to be the flawed person I think he is – and just because I said that and yes I do have my overall leanings toward Dean, does not mean I think Dean is perfect. I love them both.
I loved the premiere. I loved the look. I loved the feel. I love the unpredictability. And now I am done with this, because I know someone will dismiss it as missing the point or something like that. I’ll head on back to happy land now. It’s just so much fun to be there and just enjoy the show.
Thanks for listening.
Digyd, I promise to try not to argue your points or shoot down your opinions. But I thought maybe I could respond by offering an opinion of how I see Sam, which is why some of the things that work for you don’t work for me.
Sam growing up wanted out of hunting and a normal life. He didn’t have connection with Mary that John and Dean did, and didn’t remember the night she was killed, so revenging her death was never his mission the way it was John’s and Dean’s. He saw his father’s obsession and how damaging it was to the family. He always believed there was something better and fought for it. As a child he did this by developing a kind of OCD determination to see his dreams fulfilled. This meant rising above the obstacles – the different schools, living out motels, the lack of family support – to get good enough grades to presumably get him scholarships to Stanford.
After Jess died, he understood his father’s drive for revenge and redirected that OCD determination toward finding their father and getting revenge on the demon. He also began to let go of his judgmental attitudes and appreciate his family more. After his father died and YED seemingly escaped, Sam began to realize that he could do some good hunting. While Dean was drawn to the hunt, Sam was drawn to saving people. And when Sam realized that the demon had done something to him that could potentially turn him into a monster, the need to save people (or save himself) intensified. He was committed to hunting now.
I think the show has shown that Sam and Dean complement each other. While Dean gets caught up in the black and white, Sam sees the areas of gray. And when either becomes too obsessed with something – whether that’s saving Dean from Lilith, or saving Sam from death – and they stop listening to each other, they make bad choices.
While Sam’s gone through a lot of changes, some traits that have been consistent are his faith in something better or greater, his tendency to question things, his compulsive determination to work toward his goals, and like Dean, his love of his family and his willingness to put all else after that.
With post-Hell Sam the past couple of seasons, while his character wasn’t deeply explored as I would have liked, the traits that remained seemed to be his compulsive determination to rise above his issues (even taking up jogging), his mission to save people, and his protectiveness toward his brother (particularly seen in The Man Who Knew Too Much and in Repo Man).
That Sam is questioning what they are accomplishing by continuing to hunt, and reaching toward something better – a healthy relationship with a woman and a dog – is in character, IMO. That he didn’t search for Kevin or Dean goes against his trademark characteristics of being about saving people and putting family above all else.
After 7 years of watching Sam find his calling in saving people, to hear Sam say about Kevin “it’s not my problem” was shocking. Even when Sam was drinking demon blood, he rationalized it by saying it was for a greater purpose – stopping the apocalypse and saving demon possession victims.
To hear that Sam, whose character is marked by determined persistence, gave up so quickly, seems OOC and points to something else going on. And then to hear Sam argue that they shouldn’t risk Kevin’s safety by working to seal the gates of Hell and potentially save thousands of life was OOC. Sam always tries for a better future, and working toward this permanent solution to Hell should have been something Sam jumped at – especially considering what he of all people has suffered from the evil the demons. It’s possible he’s been so beaten down that he’s depressed, but the scene came across more that he just didn’t want his life disturbed.
Thanks for your truly open discussion, Chris. Always appreciated. I think the key to this lies in what you said in the beginning – Sam growing up wanted out of hunting and a normal life. I agreed with most of what you said. I even agreed with his drive to save people and putting family above all else. I just think he never lost that desire to save HIMSELF too and if ever there was a chance to be a little selfish (not sure I would call it that, though), thinking your brother is dead and now EVERYONE you love is gone may be that chance. I know I’ve lost my mojo from time to time and when I am motivated, I can ride that for YEARS. I’ve done it and I have witnesses to it. When I do get tired, I am down for a long time as well. Not as long as I am energized, but awhile.
But I can see your view and I’m glad you can at least give me mine without denigrating it. I simply think it’s too soon to call this. It’s one episode and we know those writers can be clever. I’m all for waiting him out. It looks like it’s deeper than the speculation so far is willing to allow for. Could be wrong, but I don’t see how anyone can begin to call it based on one episode.
Regarding the dog – I felt that Sam’s reaction deliberately over-the-top because he was transferring his grief over Dean to the dog. Like, Dean disappears, Sam is distraught, doesn’t know where to turn, gets in the car and drives aimlessly, numb, until he hits a dog. The dog brings his emotions over losing his brother to the forefront, and that is why Sam was so demanding and stricken in those scenes.
I noticed there’s a lot of subtlety being written in – Sam with the dog, Dean with the vending machine – we can’t just go by what the brothers overtly say to each other to get the whole picture of their mindsets.
Regarding Sam not looking for Dean – he didn’t ACTUALLY admit it, just kind of looked away and didn’t even try to explain himself. To me, that’s not an admission. That’s Sam having reasons he doesn’t want to share.
Even so – people react to grief differently. I don’t think Sam washing his hands of it all in light of his history and all that’s happened in S6-7 was implausible. It might not be the story some wanted, but I support his character regardless and don’t think he’s being portrayed negatively. I think we’ll all feel differently once we get more perspective.
Dean, on the other hand – it’s damn-near guarunteed that he did something unconscionable in Purgatory. My prediction is that he killed Cas to get out, and I’m not sure how I’ll feel about it, especially if he has no remorse.
Regarding Amelia – remember that this is a woman who apparently has emotional trauma. I think this explains her harshness with Sam. I’m not writing her off as an unlikeable character just yet.
Again, I think all of this was deliberately written a certain way, making us perceive things a certain way – that Sam and/or Dean are OOC – in order to deliberately shock/surprise us later in the season. I firmly believe this – remember people, Carver has written some of the best Sam-scenes and episodes in the series. He knows Sam and obviously likes writing him. I think it’s pretty obvious this evasiveness from Sam points to something greater to be revealed over time.
[quote]Regarding the dog – I felt that Sam’s reaction deliberately over-the-top because he was transferring his grief over Dean to the dog. Like, Dean disappears, Sam is distraught, doesn’t know where to turn, gets in the car and drives aimlessly, numb, until he hits a dog. The dog brings his emotions over losing his brother to the forefront, and that is why Sam was so demanding and stricken in those scenes.
I noticed there’s a lot of subtlety being written in – Sam with the dog, Dean with the vending machine – we can’t just go by what the brothers overtly say to each other to get the whole picture of their mindsets.
Regarding Sam not looking for Dean – he didn’t ACTUALLY admit it, just kind of looked away and didn’t even try to explain himself. To me, that’s not an admission. That’s Sam having reasons he doesn’t want to share.
Even so – people react to grief differently. I don’t think Sam washing his hands of it all in light of his history and all that’s happened in S6-7 was implausible. It might not be the story some wanted, but I support his character regardless and don’t think he’s being portrayed negatively. I think we’ll all feel differently once we get more perspective.
Dean, on the other hand – it’s damn-near guarunteed that he did something unconscionable in Purgatory. My prediction is that he killed Cas to get out, and I’m not sure how I’ll feel about it, especially if he has no remorse.
Regarding Amelia – remember that this is a woman who apparently has emotional trauma. I think this explains her harshness with Sam. I’m not writing her off as an unlikeable character just yet.
Again, I think all of this was deliberately written a certain way, making us perceive things a certain way – that Sam and/or Dean are OOC – in order to deliberately shock/surprise us later in the season. I firmly believe this – remember people, Carver has written some of the best Sam-scenes and episodes in the series. He knows Sam and obviously likes writing him. I think it’s pretty obvious this evasiveness from Sam points to something greater to be revealed over time.[/quote]
Exactly.
The scenes with Sam flashbacks were too short, imo, but there’s so obviously more to it than meets the eye. I’m excited to learn more.
Dean worries me. He’s HOT! yes, but a little too feral for me. I think he’s gonna need Sam to be his heart for awhile, like Dean was for Soulless Sam, maybe?
I see no signs of writing anybody out.
As one who was really worried about Sam, I see signs for hope here. I’m not giving up on him! Can’t wait to see more of what his past year has REALLY been.
Bring it on, Carver!