Let’s Discuss: Is Sam Winchester Really Okay?

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1. BTW, a review for “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters” from me is coming. I went away this weekend and now have writer’s block. However, this little examination of Sam’s character did happen instead.

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2. I’ve been thinking on this since working on my meta, so bear with me if this gets a bit long. I don’t think Sam is okay. I think Sam [i]thinks[/i] he’s okay, but he’s lying to himself. Control has always been a big thing for him and right now he’s taken control of his situation–he’s going out on morning runs, he’s diving head first into hunts, and he’s hyper-concerned about Dean. To me, those are all signs of him trying to distract himself (much like when Dean went on that hunting spree mid-season 4). He’s doing exactly what Dean told him to in “Hello, Cruel World”: he’s making Dean and their brotherhood stone number one and building on it–hence him calling Dean on his crap like the drinking when he might have once let it slide. So finding out about Amy was shaking that very foundation he’s been basing his post-wall mindset on.

   One of the moments that really gets me is the beginning of “The Mentalists” when Dean finds him in the diner. Sam looked a bit panicked at Dean’s appearance, like he didn’t trust what he was seeing. And it wasn’t until the waiter acknowledged Dean that he relaxed and spoke. If Sam thought Dean there was a hallucination, obviously things aren’t as good as he’s saying.

   I was also stuck just by his wistful tone and his body language during the conversation with Bobby in “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters”–the way he rubbed his hand. I dunno, it just came across like Sam thinks he’s dealing, but he’s much closer to the edge than he realizes.

   At the same time, I don’t think he’ll let himself fall apart while he knows Dean is struggling. One of the brothers needs to be stable enough to help the other, after all. I’m expecting some resolution with Dean’s apathy after whatever happens with Bobby (don’t kill him, please!) and that’s when Sam’s going to tip over the edge. And it’s not going to be pretty because he’s kept everything bottled inside, as he’s always done. What might cause it, I couldn’t say. But I fully expect a breakdown in the second half.

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3. I think the writers arent interested in inner Sam . The person behind the wall .Everybody expects some big drama with Sam second half of the season I dont think it will happen.

   If they were really interested in what Sams hell had done to him there was nothing stopping them the first half , they dropped Sams trauma in episode 3 with no build up to zen Sam and instead of this boy getting genuine treatment story wise we get museli man . Once they decided Dean was going to have the emotional sl and thats not down to Dean . Sam was never going to get a look in. People can disagree but I have seen enough

   Strong Sam is fine had it been done properly and with Sam being allowed to deal with and process what happened but they didnt do that . It was too fast and Sam was ok and dealing before you could blink.
   And now even if they do bring it back up how? they have made him look so ok that it would seem forced and plot driven rather than done for Sam .

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4. If a break down happens it will be at the end of the season and just be used as a plot device and/or to get him out of the way while the rest of the characters get to be a part of the bigger arc.

   I’d rather it not happen now at all, I want Sam to stay strong, to be the awesome hunter we know him to be, be Dean and Bobby’s rock, take lead in the fight against the Leviathans. I want Sam to kick ass, make friends and meet a girl or two along the way. I don’t think he or Sam fans deserve for him to be used as nothing but a plot device.

   If the writers don’t want to write him a storyline thats fine but at least let him be a kick ass hunter/leader and let him have a life of his own.

   One emo Winchester a season is more than enough for me.

   Stay strong Sam and be the hero we know you are.

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   1. completely agree with the last three lines

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5. Yes but thats the problem. Sam wasnt really there for the first half of season 6 and then it was about Deans reaction and feelings . When we did get Souled Sam back outside of Unforgiven and the finale Sams story was not front and centre and Dean was still the pov charater.

   Sam is a McGuffin he may get the storyline or the whats up with SAM but because Dean is the heart and pov of the show he gets the reaction and exploration while we get very little on how Sam actually feels. Dean is always heavily involved wether it is Sams sl or his own and we are never left wondering or guessing.

   Sam needed what makes a storyline worth while heart a pov and exploration within that situation. Regardless of what Sam has Dean gets those important ingrediants. Say they do bring up Sams hell second half how much will be for Sam and how much will it be for Dean to react to ?.

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6. I don’t think Sam is okay, nor should he be. What worries me more than Sam’s state of mind is how the writers will deal with it. I’m really afraid that this season could follow the same pattern as last season: one plot is brought to the forefront (Souless Sam and then Eve) while another interesting plot (Castiel and the War in Heaven) is only summarized and shown briefly before becoming super important at the very end.

   I’m not here to bash Season 6, but my big issue with it was the inconsistent and poorly done arcing. I’m afraid Season 7 is following the same pattern: the Leviathan are the “main” plot, while on the side Sam is always TELLING us how he thinks/feels, without us actually being shown much. Then at the end of the season the Hell memories will suddenly become super important, even though we’ve seen little of them.

   I hope that made sense–I tried to make it clear. Basically I’m just worried about how they handle this arc: not the story, but how the story is shown to us, the viewers. So far this season is shaping up to be much stronger than last. I just pray the writers don’t shoot themselves in the foot by continuing to tell-not-show the Sam/Lucifer arc.

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7. I’m with Purplehairwonder on this one. Sam only “thinks” he’s okay. He is managing it for the moment but we know it can only last so long. I also agree with the assessment that making Dean stone number one is what is keeping him afloat. I will admit to being a complete Sam girl but right now my interest and close attention is on Dean. For me Dean has been slowly going downhill since he told Sam he was barely keeping it together back in season one. That Sam and dad were all he had. (Can’t remember the name of the episode.) It has been a long and steady drop with only a few “ups” along the way. I think we will see Dean’s crisis before Sam’s.

   I don’t know precisely where the writers are headed for both boys but I have learned to be patient. Every single season needs to be looked at as a whole and season 7 is no different. We’re not even halfway through so I don’t understand where the complaints about the writers going nowhere with character development, or story arc or other things comes from.

   Now, to answer the original question. No, Sam is not okay but for the time being he is “managing it” even if he is only fooling himself.

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   1. I agree with you Linda. I think we need to be patient and wait to see the big picture. There will be cohesiveness, I’m sure. And even though I tend to agree that season 6 had too many balls in the air, it did come around as a whole, and season 7 will be no different.

      Now, what I don’t understand is all this griping about Sam not having a story line, it’s all about Dean. Sorry, but I just don’t see it that way. I find both characters are well defined. And really, do we want to see Sam as a drooling mess? Everyone deals with trauma in their own way. Doesn’t mean he’s 100% by any means. I do think he will break down at some point. But Dean is the one that told him to make him “stone number one and build on that” and I think that is what he is trying his best to do. We have seen glimpses of how he’s coping, waiting to acknowledge Dean in the diner, rubbing his palm, etc. Now with Bobby down, Sam & Dean will have to pull together even more.

      Sorry that was a little too long for just a reply post!

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8. Hi Alice,

   Thank you so much for this. I definitely feel something is off with Sam this season. It’s been bothering me for awhile.

   Like you suggested, it was stated again and again that if Sam was to remember all the horrors visited upon him in Hell, his mind would likely crack from the pressure. Hence the wall was built. Once it was in place, the warnings were “Fear for the collapse of the wall!”

   Well, Castiel brought that wall down, and Sam seems about as troubled by it as by a hangnail! Although I shouldn’t knock hangnails. I had one this summer, and my finger got so badly infected that I was on my way to the emergency department when the infection started draining.

   And that’s my point. A red, swollen hand because of a camping trip was almost enough to force me to a hospital. Sam has a century of hell memories and yet it seems like it’s no big deal for him. Or at least that’s the way it’s being written.

   I find it frustrating on a number of levels. To begin with, it knocks the credibility factor right on the bum. For most of us, when something really REALLY bad happens, it changes us in some way. It doesn’t always mean big changes. Sometimes it’s small changes. For instance, after a serious car accident you might never drive that same route again. You’re not constantly troubled by flashbacks of the accident, but you know going near the scene would create issues.

   Supernatural is set in a somewhat unbelievable world what with the large population of demons, angels, witches, vampires and werewolves (although I do keep an open mind, because you just never know). But what has always grounded the program is the fact Sam & Dean react like real people, with all their attendant emotional strengths and weaknesses. Believing the Winchester Brothers are human is what allows to suspend our disbelief about everything else.

   Sam just seems too superhuman to me. All he has to do is rub the scar on his palm (which reminds him of Dean, which I think is a nice touch, but still..) and he’s fine? I just don’t buy it.

   There should be a few more ramifications. Again, they don’t have to be big. He doesn’t have to descend into a catatonic state, or be deluged with delusions. He could have a few memory lapses a la the Swiss Cheese mind of Dr. Samuel Beckett on “Quantum Leap”. He could have lost a few abilities, like no longer shooting as straight, or not be able to get the angles right in a game of pool, or even just mix up his right hand and his left hand occasionally. (All great minds do that, don’t they?)

   The way I see it, superhumans are invincible, and that creates a problem. If someone can never be hurt, or will never falter, then there is no need to be concerned for them, or fear for their safety. That’s poor drama.

   Sam is also tending towards a Saint these days (“others have it lots worse than me”… There is some truth in that, if you look at the hardships faced by people in some of the world’s hotspots, but it seems too magnanimous for me) I find it too accepting, even for Sam who has accepted being a hunter.

   Also, I’m finding his reactions somewhat Out Of Character (although I’m not sure his character, or Dean’s have ever been fully realized. Fanfictions often seem to create more wholly complex versions of the brothers than the writers.) In the same way that Dean has always been burdened by excess guilt, and a sometimes-suffocating need to protect, Sam has a few ongoing character traits too. Think Anger, Pride, Revenge. Those are usually seen as negative emotions. And it’s true, they’re what made him susceptible to Ruby’s deceptions, and his addiction to demon blood. It’s also true he’s been quite successful at reining them in.

   But if he is as broken inside as the writers suggest, but don’t show (“All Satanvision, all the time”), then Anger, Pride and Revenge should likely come back into play. Maybe anger at what happened to him in the Pit could spur him to heal even more. Or, he could take out that rage at an inappropriate time on a hunt, or maybe even on his brother in an interesting dramatic twist. Abused people often become abusers. Pride in his ability to survive in the Pit could help him pull himself together in a situation that seems desperate. Revenge, or its more benign equivalent could take the form of “I’ll show Lucifer that I can cope”. Those emotions should peep out once in a while. We moderate our less desirable traits, but I don’t think they disappear entirely.

   What I’m not seeing from Sam is passion – for himself, for holding it together, for Dean (even though he did talk to Bobby about him. It’s not like the scene from Fresh Blood, where he begs Dean to just go back to being his brother), even for the job. Maybe that’s because Sam is holding on by his fingertips and can’t afford to rock his calm boat. But I’d like to know that.

   I think the problem is that not knowing Sam’s inner thoughts does a disservice to him, and secondarily to Dean. Seeing Sam struggle more would give us a glimpse into the working of his brain. Seeing him struggle might allow both brothers to talk about Hell and their experiences there. It’s such rich emotional territory to mine.

   At present, Sam makes me think of driver who’s been pulled over and asked to walk the centre line. He’s walking down that yellow stripe so carefully and cautiously. It could be because he’s a drunk. Or, it could be because he’s a klutz. Or, it could be because he’s a serial killer with a body in the trunk, and doesn’t want to make the police suspicious.

   But, just like the cops, we’re no wiser until he blows into the breathalyzer, or in our case let’s out a little of what’s going on in that brain.

   Thanks & sorry I was so lengthy.

   Pragmatic Dreamer

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   1. Beautiful!

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9. More questions than answers here…is that a sign of a well-written season or not? Hmmmm….

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10. I know I’ll be in the minority here, but I like where Sam is at right now. He told Bobby that he is managing by distracting himself and counting his blessings and by hunting to help others. To me, these are very healthy coping mechanisms that allow him to focus outside himself, notice Dean is in major mental trouble, and not spiral out of control…or try to shoot his brother.

    I thought Bobby was wrong in telling Sam to take care of himself and not worry about Dean, especially since Bobby obviously got the murder/suicide message Dean left on his phone.

    I don’t know where they are taking Sam, neither do I don’t know where they are taking Dean. What I think will happen is that Sam will be the one to pull Dean back from the ledge he is on in some fashion, and Dean is on the ledge. If that happens, I will be happy.

    I’m not surprised to see all the complaints about Sam’s POV or his inner self, although I never find myself confused about where Sam is at because Dean is usually reacting to where Sam is at.

    How I see it is that the season’s story is still being laid out. It’s not unusual for SPN to be slow out of the gate. Last season we didn’t know what the story was until Ep. 20, and the show always seems to (1) lag in the middle and (2) kind of change directions mid-season. I’d rather that be different, but that’s the way things are.

    I think the mistake this season, though, was the big build-up from Comic Con forward about Sam going to suffer worse than anyone else in the universe with his worst Hell experience ever. I stated way back then that that story could never be delivered, and I still don’t think it can, despite SG saying that Sam would have severe and lasting trauma from it. I’m hoping it doesn’t go in that direction as, right now, there are so many more possibilities that I would find much more interesting.

    This is the best I have liked Sam since the end of S3 and I hope the show doesn’t veer off into another Sam problem again.

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    1. I’ve heard this complaint, that Sam’s hell was over sold, from Dean girls before. And I’d have an easier time buying it if they also applied the same logic to Dean. Hell was too big a story, lets just say they’re both ok and move on. Except then it’s followed by a desire to focus on Dean’s suffering even more. So I’m left with the feeling that the real objection isn’t that Sam’s hell was made too big, but just that it was made bigger than Dean’s.

       I remember all the complaints as to how Dean’s hell was dealt with by just giving him a bottle and sending him on his way. Right now, I’d thank the stars if Sam had even that bottle. He isn’t just coping, he isn’t just fine, he’s better than ever.

       I’d say they’ve turned him into a robot, but even Cameron from TSCC had more emotions than Sam does right now.

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       1. Once the ‘Dean girls’ comment is invoked, I refuse to engage in a meaningful conversation about any points made in my original post or yours. I don’t play in that sandbox, so you’ll have to play by yourself.

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          1. I should have taken that route when the “This is the best I have liked Sam since the end of S3” was invoked.

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       2. Well I am a loud, proud Dean girl and I am not going to apologize for it. IMO, the problem wasn’t only that Sam’s Hell was over-sold. It was that it was repeating a story that had already been told. The writers put themselves in a position where they were selling the same story but were trying to disguise that fact slapping a cheap wig on it and getting all the show’s characters how elegant this new story was. No matter how well or how poorly you think Dean’s PTSD story was done, it still got done first and so it will always look better by dint of being the original.

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          1. And before the screaming and the hair-pulling commences, I feel the same way about Dean’s normal life story. That was Sam’s story back in season 1 and there was absolutely no need to recycle it for Dean in season 6. It seems to me the biggest problem with this show is that they seem to have run out of ideas. Hell even Dean’s emo arc for this season is essentially the same story they have telling every year since season 2. The only story they seem to be adamantly against is giving Dean in their attempts so-called literary symmetry is any kind of a central role where he is important simply for himself rather than as an extension of his brother. That one, they seem to have zero interest in recycling.

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    2. You are not in the minority Ginger. If you read my reply to Linda, you’ll see I agree with your stance. And I like where you’re coming from. I’m sure not everything is hunky-dory with either brother, that’s why they need to rely on each other even more now. As you’ve sais, this is the way all seasons of SPN are built. Hey, not everyone can be happy all the time, right?

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    3. [quote]I know I’ll be in the minority here, but I like where Sam is at right now.[/quote]
       I like strong, healthy Sam too, but only if it makes sense for where his character is at that time. If the story they’ve been telling is that any human being could not possibly survive what Sam went through, then finding out that Sam is “ok” with all of this with no supernatural intervention just leaves me scratching my head.

       [quote]I thought Bobby was wrong in telling Sam to take care of himself and not worry about Dean, especially since Bobby obviously got the murder/suicide message Dean left on his phone.[/quote]
       I think Bobby has recognized that there’s cause to worry about both brothers right now.

       [quote]I’m not surprised to see all the complaints about Sam’s POV or his inner self, although I never find myself confused about where Sam is at because Dean is usually reacting to where Sam is at.[/quote]
       If you’ve grown accustomed to taking your cues to what’s going on with Sam by reading Dean’s reactions, then you must understand the frustration from fans who care about Sam’s character. You would probably be frustrated if your only hints about what was going on with Dean came from Sam’s reactions.

       [quote]I think the mistake this season, though, was the big build-up from Comic Con forward about Sam going to suffer worse than anyone else in the universe with his worst Hell experience ever.[/quote]
       I think the biggest mistake was not mapping out a plan for both Sam and Dean’s stories to steadily progress throughout the season. Fans will put up with a hot storyline being put on hold for a few episodes, but half a season or longer is too much.

       [quote]This is the best I have liked Sam since the end of S3 and I hope the show doesn’t veer off into another Sam problem again.[/quote]
       The show has been nothing but Sam problem, Dean problem, Sam problem, Dean problem … so good luck with that! 😉

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    4. [quote]I’m not surprised to see all the complaints about Sam’s POV or his inner self, although I never find myself confused about where Sam is at because Dean is usually reacting to where Sam is at. [/quote]

       For me that is a BIG problem because we are seeing where Dean THINKS Sam is at, but he is not necessarily correct. Throughout the series we have seen Dean NOT know or not understand Sam’s emotions completely and at times he does not understand at all. After hunting together for a year, Dean was surprised that Sam was planning to marry Jess. He didn’t know until Azazel told him while possessing John. Dean had NO IDEA that Sam had been praying for “a long time”. During season three, Dean blithely assumed that Sam would grieve briefly then tra-la along with his life after Dean went to Hell.

       In After School Special, Dean dismissed Sam’s misery about changing schools and always being an outsider, because it didn’t bother him. He simply couldn’t relate.

       Dean’s problems are with guilt and loss. He has not had problems with feeling like a freak, which are Sam’s issues.

       Dean is also operating on incomplete information. Most people change after leaving home and going to college. Sam didn’t just leave for college, he was on his own, learning to be on his own and forming opinions and coping mechanisms that weren’t part of the like he shared with Dean. Dean also didn’t live through the time during Mystery Spot. Sam certainly didn’t inform him immediately after the experience and considering the rest of the time was spent barreling towards Dean’s doom, it seems unlikely that Sam filled him in at all. Even if he did, the kind of trauma that Sam experienced can’t be explained and would have massive consequences on his reactions and emotional state and Dean was not there to see how Sam would have changed due to that, just as Dean was not there to see how Sam was affected after Dean went to Hell.

       Gauging Sam by Dean’s reactions is not an accurate picture of Sam. It is only an accurate picture of how Dean sees Sam. Dean and Sam are different people. No one is completely able to understand another person so viewing Sam solely by how Dean reacts to them is NOT truly giving a accurate picture of Sam. Perhaps if Sam had been allowed to express his feelings and reactions in seasons 4-6 you would have liked him better, however since Sam’s actions were always viewed through Dean’s eyes, I can understand why you grew disillusioned. I didn’t, but I had to draw a lot of conclusions on my own, because the show was resolutely keeping Sam silent on his feelings and reasons for his actions.

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       1. [i]Throughout the series we have seen Dean NOT know or not understand Sam’s emotions completely and at times he does not understand at all. After hunting together for a year, Dean was surprised that Sam was planning to marry Jess. He didn’t know until Azazel told him while possessing John. Dean had NO IDEA that Sam had been praying for “a long time”. During season three, Dean blithely assumed that Sam would grieve briefly then tra-la along with his life after Dean went to Hell.[/i]

          And of course, none of this is on Sam at all is it? It’s all Dean’s fault for misunderstanding, and not in any way, shape or form caused by the fact Sam might not have bothered sharing any of this with Dean, or might have given Dean the impression he’d be fine after Dean went to Hell by virtue of the fact he didn’t – and doesn’t – demonstrate very high regard for his brother?

          Perhaps you should think about how Sam sees Dean and how that informs his treatment of Dean, which has often been disrespectful and dismissive.

          [i]…the show was resolutely keeping Sam silent on his feelings and reasons for his actions[/i]

          I disagree. It was made totally clear that Sam was driven by his need for power and control. You just didn’t like what you saw, so you deny the insight ever happened.

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          1. I wasn’t assigning fault, I was simply pointing out that since Dean doesn’t know Sam as well as some people ascribe to him, he is not a reliable narrator on informing us about Sam’s POV. I didn’t blame Dean for not knowing, I simply said that SINCE HE DIDN’T know some important things about Sam that only seeing Sam through Dean’s POV is inadequate in my opinion.

             It was not made totally clear why Sam made certain decisions along the way. You have chosen the most negative view of them, partially because Dean expressed those views as to why HE thought Sam was doing things. The few times Sam was allowed to speak for himself, in Monster at the End of the Book, he told Chuck that he was afraid that Dean was being pressured by the angels to do something that Dean couldn’t handle. He didn’t long for power. You are ignoring one of the few times Sam actually spoke for himself.

             You don’t like Sam and have decided that his motives were petty, evil and indefensible. That is your right. You do not have the right to tell me that I am wrong to say that I don’t think the show has adequately explored Sam’s mindset and that we have never received a complete view of Sam. I resent the idea that only you are right in your assessment of how the show presents Sam. Many posters here disagree with you. It is very presumptuous of you to tell us that we are ALL wrong and you are the font of truth.

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             1. Sorry, but when you use terms like “blithely assume” and “dismiss” then you are apportioning blame. When you express surprise that Dean didn’t know these things after hunting with Sam for a year without acknowledging that it might be because Sam didn’t actually tell him you are apportioning blame. You’re well known for it, so don’t backpedal.

11. Thanks for this look at Sam, Alice.
    For my money I think that, as some have stated, Sam *thinks* he’s doing okay and really he’s teetering on the edge.

    I think we are missing some crucial time in the three weeks where Sam, Dean and Bobby were at Rufus’ cabin. I say this because Dean and Bobby talk about how Sam “improved” over that time i.e. less hallucinations. And since then, as you point out Alice, there have been other instances of separation that we aren’t privy to – who knows what happened to Sam in there. What I believe, is that Sam has developed a way to identify and ignore the hallucinations that are happening. He aknowledges them to himself, but doesn’t address them, per se.

    I’m certain that this is leading somewhere and at the most inopportune moment, crash goes Sam and all his zen. Maybe on some level Sam thinks he deserves this and therefore accepts it (not saying he deserves it, but maybe he believes he does). I feel like the writers are trying to move both boys storylines ahead and intend to have them converge in some way, which is why all the emphasis on how they worry about each other but not themselves, etc.

    It’s really hard to say at this point. I think after the mid-season finale we will have more information (again, I could very well eat those words come December 5th).

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12. For my money, Sam is not OK, but at the same time, he’s survived better than anyone but Dean thought he would.

    He’s really in uncharted territory, because the hell damage, according to Castiel, should have either killed him or left him a screaming vegetable. But Sam defied the odds by insisting on assimilating the damage and surviving it.

    But surviving it is not the same as being fine. I think Sam is uniquely fitted to surviving the damaged soul. He’s feared his own soul his whole life, because of the demon blood–he didn’t know what made him different, but he knew something did and he was scared of it. He’s always internalized his fears and outwardly tried to be as normal as possible. That’s his M.O.

    Now he has a definable presence in his mind that he can call his damage, and that actually feels more in control than he’s sometimes been in the past. But I think the screams when he was coming out of the love spell indicated when his guard is down, there’s trouble.

    He’s trying to be as stable as he can–but I suspect Bobby’s death will push him over the edge. Hopefully, not until he’s pulled Dean back from his ledge. In most relationships, there is a fluctuation in who’s giving and who’s getting help. Same with Sam and Dean, I think.

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13. I haven’t had time to read other comments, so forgive me if I repeat something already said.

    If Sam is truly fine and has gotten over most of his issues, as well as getting a handle on the Lucifer hallucinations to the point that they don’t interfere with his daily life at all, I cry foul. This is not believable character development, and as you say Alice, not like a human being would behave. I mean, it’s not just the hallucinations. It’s all those decades in Hell, what RoboSam did, and other, older issues. Now he’s fine? It’s like he got a lobotomy or something. I feel that, in the space of just a few episodes, the writers have hollowed out the character. He’s practically perfect, and nobody wants to watch a perfect character.

    If in fact Sam is NOT fine, then the story is not being told well, because there should be hints that all is not fine. The tension should be building while we head for the inevitable breakdown. But there’s nothing and the story has lost its momentum. Sam is being portrayed as being fine, of if they go back to it after Christmas, it will probably feel like it comes out of nowhere.

    So, either way they decide to go, the writers have already failed to tell a compelling story so no, I am not happy with Sam’s development during season 7.

    I don’t understand. It seems to me that the first rule of writing is to stay with the “hot” story, the one with momentum, and milk it for all it’s worth before you move on to the next one. It took a whole year of soulless Sam and then the Wall, to get to the payoff when the wall fell, and the story was cut short. Why? It’s all so backwards to me. Sam’s issues were the most urgent ones and should have been dealt with before Dean’s more chronic ones. Also, Dean’s burgeoning depression would have fit perfectly with trying to help his traumatized brother. I really don’t get it.

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14. This has been kind of bugging me for a while now. Both of them should be on psychotic meds right now, even if it’s just for their individual experiences in hell. [b]ESPECIALLY[/b] Sam, who spent his time trapped in a cage with Lucifer. I agree that the build up to Sam’s “wall” crumbling and suddenly resolved in two episodes has me raising an eyebrow… I hope the writers are just pulling a bait and switch tactic and will have Sam going bonkers in no time. (Heck, Sam seems more stable than Dean right now!) With that said, his mega-health kick might just be his way of staying focused and not swimming in the gooey mess that his consciousness must be!

    Okay… my rant is done!

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15. I’d like to think there was more for Sam and his hell trauma/storyline coming up in the second half of the season but I (possibly overly pessimistically) am beginning to think that what we’ve already got is all we are going to get. I just don’t understand it at all. Sam endures hundreds of years of torture, ‘spooning’ with Lucifer, the broken head and leaking psyche; he has Satanvision rattling around in his brain constantly and he’s just all fine and hunkydory and it’s Dean who is the one clinically depressed and heading for a complete breakdown!?!?! Nope. I just don’t get it. I was so excited for this year and hoping for some real Sam insight and character development for the first time, as you say, since S3 but now I’m feeling all mopey about everything. Still, all the comments here from folk who believe there is more on the way for Sam are making me feel better. I shall continue to keep hoping.

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16. At the end of the day the writers built the story up . We got told various ways how terrible this wall coming down would be. And they havent followed it up.

    I knew to a degree we would need a Sam that functions but it has gone so far the other way that the whole sl has meant nothing. Sam is the brother that has suffered the most neglected emotionally from the writing and this was a perfect opportunity to rectify some of that.

    But outside of those first two episodes we have got nothing . And if they decided to have Sam like this what was stopping them from exploring Sam in this?. It is the lack of interest that bothers me . Bobby gets more insight we learn more how he feels than Sam.

    You pull the wall down you should of had the heart and Care for Sam to follow up not create another version of Souless Sam and move on

    Reply

17. Sam’s been there for Dean and pulled him back several times since season 3. It was Sam’s faith in Dean that stopped Dean from saying yes to Michael, even as Dean admitted that if rolls were reversed he would have left Sam tied up in the panic room.

    Also, Sam faced his Hell memories believing they would detroy him for the sole reason that he wouldn’t leave Dean alone. There have been lots of smaller instances as well when Sam has had Dean’s back.

    Reply

    1. I was going to say the same thing. Sam pulled Dean from the ledge in season 5. In fact, I feel that Dean’s story is a carbon copy of his story in season 5, when he was also really depressed for more or less the same reasons. And how much lower can you get than suicide by Michael? It’s frustrating that the writers can’t do something fresh with Dean. Same for Sam. The comment above about Sam’s lack of passion reminded me a lot of Sam’s muted season 5 characterization, when he was just prodding along, seemingly emotionally removed from most the emotions he should have been feeling then. It’s disappointing.

       Reply

18. I go back and forth between thinking the writers have just abandoned writing for Sam and thinking there is more going on, like in season 4. The thing that’s struck me is that at times, Sam seems to not only be coping, but to be almost exuberant about his situation. He seemed almost as high as Dean during moments of the last episode. His first comment to Bobby, about how he was ok with it all seemed to take Bobby back, until Sam explained. Or was he covering?

    I’ve been wondering what Lucifer has been saying to Sam and whether this is more of a psychic connection rather than hallucinations. If there is a connection, maybe Lucifer is healing his vessel for some purpose. I’m also wondering if Stockholm syndrome might be playing a role here.

    Reply

    1. I’ll just reply here to it all, but more so to cd28:

       Frankly I am torn. In Season 4 and some in 5 I had faith that if we weren’t being told something, there was a master plan at work, and that the writers knew how the story would end. After season 6 I lost faith that they know their ending.

       That said. I am starting to think like cd28 that Sam is experiencing more of a psychic connection to Lucifer. If the writers hold to their own canon then an angel and his vessel are always connected. I find it interesting, CD28 that you think perhaps Lucifer is even healing Sam from beyond. I do wonder because Sam is way healthier than he should be.

       Also, Sam is not all that emotional. Yes, in character he has a lot of negative traits like pride, anger and revenge. He doesn’t have it anymore, he hasn’t actually since his wall was put in place. I find this lack of emotion, this lack of Sam’s personality (be it good or bad) to be DULL. He’s a really bland character at the moment and the writers need to do something about it. [yawn]

       Maybe Sam is less emotional and more like an angel? Hmmm, he does seem a little manic at times. His comment to Bobby that he “was okay” with Lucifer being with him startled Bobby. I think Sam picked up on it and covered himself by saying that he had it better than others.

       Maybe Sam doesn’t mind Lucifer’s presence. Maybe it could be useful to the story.

       I just want my favorite character to stop being boring.

       Reply

19. Well, this article should keep us going over the mid-term! Is Sam Winchester okay? No, most definitely not. However, it’s not just that Sam Winchester isn’t okay in season 7; Sam Winchester has not been okay from the moment we met him. There’s always been something to eat away at Sam. First season it was Jessica and the knowledge about his visions. In season 2 his father ended up in hell, a situation he might have prevented had he shot YED/John in 1.22. Then he had to deal with Dean’s promise to John and the psychic kids. Season 3 he had to deal with the idea that Dean was going to hell because of him. He had to deal with months of watching Dean die and being unable to save him in Mystery Spot. Season 4 he had to deal with not being able to save Dean, Lilith, demon blood and abilities. In season 5 he had Lucifer and the Apocalypse and Season 6, hell and soulless memories. Now in season 7 he again has a buttload that should weigh him down; hellacinations and Dean’s downward spiral. It’s not merely a case of ‘Is Sam Winchester okay?’ any more. It’s more of a case of ‘Has Sam Winchester ever been okay?’ So while Dean is now being given the opportunity to deal with his built-up issues, we are still waiting for Sam to be afforded the same luxury.

    I’ve been very disappointed in season 7 so far. Of the nine episodes aired, there are 5 that I haven’t rewatched, at all, which is unheard of for me. There were two I deleted the minute I watched them (though I did download them again, I like to have full collections….). However, I know that my dislike of season 7 thus far is entirely my fault. I made assumptions going in to the season that things would be one way, and they weren’t. I assumed that, as for the past 6 years it had been Dean’s POV to (mainly) Sam’s actions that this season, when it’s Dean’s actions, it would be Sam’s POV that the audience would get. It hasn’t been. It’s Dean’s POV to Dean’s actions.

    This lack of insight makes Sam Winchester is a very difficult character to understand. Because he is so veiled, and most of his motivations have been debated off-screen, it’s hard to know what drives him. I still genuinely don’t know for certain what led Sam to say ‘yes’ to Lucifer. I can [i]assume[/i] I know the reasons why but I can’t [i]know[/i] the reasons why. Did he say ‘yes’ because of guilt, honour, courage, loyalty, obligation? Because it wasn’t told, or even indicated, there’s nothing concrete about Sam to take from it. The same applies to many of Sam’s decisions over the years. Why did he start drinking blood/using powers/sleeping with Ruby? Was he giving in to his dark side, was is despair, was it anger or was it vengeance etc? So for all that we’ve seen Sam do, we know very little about him. We appreciate the consequences of his actions on others, but not on himself.

    The show has, in my opinion, deliberately spurned, for whatever reasons, many chances to explore Sam or to show the impact that Dean’s actions have had on his brother. Instead they choose to have Sam be wrong, apologise for someone else’s actions, have him disappear for lengths at a time, or physically and metaphorically gag him (my God, that gag in 7.06 was quite symbolic). As well as that, by having Sam declare himself guilt-free and be so at ease with what happened to him (and is still happening to him), the writers have built a wall for Sam far greater and more impenetrable than the one Death built. So either Lucifer is pure shite as a torturer, Sam is a robot or Gandhi will soon be worshipping Sam Winchester as the most placid, understanding man on earth. Perhaps Sam is like Ned Flanders when, after being an angry child and a couple of years of ‘spanking therapy’ Flanders just snapped and suddenly he was ‘okley dokley’. This seems akin to what is happening with Sam. It’s all built up and built up and then, unknownst to anyone, Sam quietly snaps, and so everything is ‘fine’.

    This doesn’t play true with me for a number of reasons. Number one, the show has held up Sam’s anger, quest for revenge or unwillingness to let things go as the catalyst for many events in the show. It was what drove him all the way through to season 6. Now, I’d almost believe Sam was a sedated shape shifter were it not for the fact that I know Sam’s not a sedated shape shifter (I think…).

    The second issue is one which is equally as puzzling. We know that Lucifer is in Sam’s head and he’s mucking about with him inside there, fair enough. And, if I cast aside all rational thinking, I think I can understand that pressing down on a hand wound could keep Lucifer at bay (except that the scar has to be long healed so it can’t be the ‘different type of pain’ that’s keeping Lucifer at bay)…. However, the hellacinations are not just limited to Sam’s mental state, there was also a physical element to them and to be honest, I don’t think that pressing on a hand wound could keep seizures at bay (because if it were I know a few people who’d be slicing and dicing away at themselves!). The power of positive thinking can only do so much and in fairness, running ain’t all that beneficial (unless you’re into tight calves and vomiting…) So that leads me to ask ‘What happened to the seizures?’ or even the small space outs Sam had? Does Sam now know when he’s about to have a bad spell and so heads off into the forest etc for a few days at a time in order to deal? This could be one explanation as to why he kept leaving in season 7 but of course, that would be a monumentally stupid thing for Sam to do.

    I’m also now very nervous about how Sam’s break will play out, if it plays out; I’m no longer convinced that it will. I was hugely optimistic at the end of season 6 and also after the first two episodes of season 7 but I’ve now learned the danger of assumption. As I said earlier, there is a huge amount left to be dealt with in a season that is now 1/3 of the way through; Dean, Castiel, Leviathans, Adam and now Bobby. It’s now a genuine concern that Sam’s issues will either (a) merely be given lip service (as his decision to say ‘Yes’ was) or (b) they will serve as a platform by which to understand Dean. To be honest, I’m wary of the former and tired of the latter.

    Add to that, if Sam’s issues arise again it won’t be until the latter half of the season. By then, I dare say the storyline will have lost serious momentum. The guy has been saying ‘I’m fine, I’m dealing’ etc for a long time now it’s going to be hard to go back and have him say ‘Well, actually I’m not’. I find it a rather bizarre decision to have built up the wall breaking storyline for so long, to have it break and then nada. There is a danger that, if the storyline is revisited, it could very easily turn into a case whereby viewers are left thinking ‘Well, Sam was doing well for so long, why doesn’t he just keep on doing what he did before in order to deal?’

    The show has really written itself into a hole in relation to Sam. By spending 6 ½ years showing us what he did and not who he is, they’re now not really in a position to tell us who the hell he is. Perhaps they don’t know, perhaps they don’t care, perhaps they’ve decided to focus on the fully human characters in the story; Dean and Bobby (we now have greater insight into who Bobby is than who Sam is). Perhaps this is the reason they are so hesitant to write a Sam POV, they just don’t know who he is. This really is unfair to both characters. It’s put huge pressure on Dean to always portray the emotional side of the story but it’s also done a disservice to Sam because by depriving us of his motivations and his feelings, it has made him less than human.

    Sam is a hard character to defend and argue for. Because so little about who he is is based in canon, it’s left him subject to a huge number of attacks about his character. It is canon that Sam running away had huge consequences for Dean, but there’s nothing about what drove Sam to run away so it is now ‘canon’ that Sam was selfish to run away. Same applies to college. Hell, the same even applied to when he went camping instead of going to Vegas. It’s difficult to argue an opinion when you’re only given one side of the story.

    If the hellacinations are to be revisited then I’d like them to be in a way that will progress Sam as a character, not as a way of manipulating us into feeling a certain way about him. Seeing that he suffers from them doesn’t tell us anything about him, it’s just trying to make us feel sorry for him. There are many things that [i]could[/i] be done with the hellacinations (Adam etc) but very few that are [i]being[/i] done with it. And to be honest, if Sam’s issues are once again used to push the progression of someone else, I’ll crack!

    I’ve very much lost the confidence in the show that I had last season; that they would deal with the person of Sam and not the plot of Sam. I do think that 7.10 will tell a lot in relation to where Sam stands in season 7. Given that he has had visions about Bobby being killed then this (Bobby’s possible death) [i]should[/i] seriously affect him. I would hope that this may be the start of some insight into what’s going on in Sam’s head but I don’t know. I know I should have faith that it will happen but I’ve had faith for a long time and it hasn’t happened. I know I should have patience but that patience too is wearing thin. I really don’t want to be watching episode 55.01 of SPN and be thinking ‘Okay, [i]this[/i] season we’re going to find out who Sam actually is’.

    Thanks for this, Alice. Sometimes it’s good to be given a place to vent.

    Reply

    1. Tim, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Thanks for putting it so well. I’m still watching, but with a lot less interest, and my patience is just about gone.

       Reply

    2. Tim, I agree with 100% of your post. The lack of focus on Sam is just bizarre, especially this year when Sam is dealing with so much. I’m starting to think that maybe the writers are operating from directives from TPTB’s to focus on the most popular character no matter what. I don’t understand the decision-making, so there must be something we don’t know.

       Thing is, the best story is not always about the most popular character and I really think that the Dean character would be better served in an emotionally supportive role sometimes, otherwise he can come off as self-centered.

       Reply

       1. “I really think that the Dean character would be better served in an emotionally supportive role sometimes, otherwise he can come off as self-centered.”

          Funny, I feel the same way. Only, replace Dean’s name with Sam’s.

          Reply

    3. Wow Tim, this is as great written as Alice’s aricle. It left me with nothing to add but with everything to agree.

       I am also tired of defending Sam. I mean how are you defending someone who rather wanted a better education than being killed at thirty when it’s portrayed as something bad and you never hear his side of the story?
       Sam was left to be the “bad” brother by the writers but even that they didn’t follow through. If Sam was more like, let’s say Demon Salvatore from TVD, who is bad, knows it and is ok with that we at least could’ve had fun with Sam. But, as it is, Sam struggles Season after Season to beat destiny and redeem himself but never seem to fully achieve that, because his actions without the insight left way too much space for interpretation (most of them not good).

       Now all of a sudden Sam is super ok. Good for you, Sam! Unbelievable for me. The jump from episode 2 to 3 this season left me asking: how? why? when? Qestions that never been answered. Again we can only guess. And I am dissapointed because the whole build up from season 6 left me thinking that there will be great drama ahead of un this season, but the greatest drama was the Amy desaster (as I like to call it now). Everything Dean went through in season 6 for Sam, all the worry about the wall breaking, all the warning about what it could do to Sam were in vain.

       I don’t believe anymore that they are going to show more about Sam’s “broken” psyche then the first two episodes. My theory on that is following (apart from lazy writing): If Sam would’ve been so destroyed from the wall breaking then Cas after his returning (which I believe will happen) could never be forgiven by Dean. So to leave a possibility open for Cas to be on Dean’s good side again, they have to show “Look, Sam’s not doing too bad!”.

       Then again I could be all wrong and the second half of the season could be Sam breaking. Here I agree with the rest of you…to wait half a season for something to happen just takes the wind out of the drama-sailing boat.

       Reply

    4. Tim m’dear,
       you’re right.

       I have lost a lot of interest in this show nowadays because they take so fudging long, long, long time to make things happen, character wise. This is what bugged me most about S6.

       I too am really freaking tired of this guessing game. “How is Sam dealing? Did he just give us a sign of his deeper understanding/choices/feelings with that smile/look/sigh/touch?”.

       I usually have some kind of grasp of his character (or maybe it’s always been just my take and not what show intended, beats me) but nowadays I’m just perplexed, all the time. I can’t see his reasoning anymore. And I’ve always seen it, even with the bad choices. I could see where he’s coming from but since the lackcluster season 6, and the way it’s been handled since, I’m getting more and more wary. Dissapointed yet again. *sigh* And I really, really don’t want to be.

       I’m (usually) trying my very best to stay positive but sometimes (like today) it’s just too much of a task.

       I love this show, I really, really do. I just don’t like it at the moment. And I’m hoping agaist hope that it’ll get better (*whispers: but it should have allready*).

       Ok, too long rambles, sorry Tim. Just agreeing with every single word you’ve written.

       Love, Supernarttu, Mrs.

       Ps. Sorry for being overtly Maudling you guys.

       Ppss. God, I’m depressed now. Gotta surf some *insert your own situation here* -type screencaps from the good old days 🙂

       Reply

       1. Here you go, Mrs. This will cure what ails ya.
          [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6yeZR1Wdu4Y/ThLMsMbDzCI/AAAAAAAABfw/VnFGDrSwsBk/s400/Chocolate+Mud+Cake.jpg[/img]
          [img]http://stustation.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/johnwinchester5.jpg[/img]

          Chocolate cake and John Winchester. The answer to, and cause of, all lifes problems…..

          Reply

          1. Oh darling, you are the best!!

             Maybe the yummy cake could be delivered by soking wet, sexy Winchester Trio in tight t-shirts?

             Candy AND eyecandy, get it? *nudge nudge wink wink*

             Pretty please?

             😀

             But thank you Tim. It’s helping allready!

             Reply

             1. Don’t objectify the Winchesters, Supernarttu. They are brave, honourable, men who deserve to be lauded for their brains and ability, not merely their bodies and hair.

                Ah screw it…..

    5. “I still genuinely don’t know for certain what led Sam to say ‘yes’ to Lucifer. I can assume I know the reasons why but I can’t know the reasons why. Did he say ‘yes’ because of guilt, honour, courage, loyalty, obligation? Because it wasn’t told, or even indicated, there’s nothing concrete about Sam to take from it.”
       Yes, for all of those reasons, but I would add the less noble ones of arrogance and self-righteousness to that list, especially when they found out that Lucifer already knew about the plan to open the doorway to hell with the rings. Sam’s reasonings for saying yes to Lucifer were very complex and many-fold, how could it be otherwise for such a complex character. It is the same as with Dean’s reasonings for making the deal to save Sam back in S2 And I disagree completely with the thought that all the many reasonings behind both of their actions were never indicated. Not everything can be shown in a “concrete way”. I’m still disappointed that Sam, or even Bobby, has never, in a “concrete” way(or any way at all, truly) credited Dean with being a huge part of saving the planet, too, by showing up at that cemetary and helping Sam to call up the strength within himself to overcome Lucifer. And considering the thought that Dean considers himself “90% crap”, this would be something Dean could so sorely use to hear from his loved ones, especially now. But if we don’t get it, it doens’t mean, I don’t believe it because to me that was made pretty clear from all the indications in that episode. And I know that some will argue that it was unclear as to whether it was the car or the toy soldier more than Dean himself that got through to Sam, but regardless, the fact remains that if Dean hadn’t shown up, chances were that Lucifer, who was very much in control before that, would have burned the world down. The writing on this show has never been stellar, IMO. It’s certainly had it’s ups and downs, and for many of us it’s been on an unremitting downward slide since mid S5. Things that should have been shown have not been shown, they’ve only been told. Some things have not even been “told”, that should have been told as regards BOTH main characters, not just Sam, IMO. Maybe some of us have just become more inured to poorer and unbalanced quality of the writng and have learned to either continue watching by getting around it or have moved on because they simply can’t get by it. The Sam fandom wants to see more of the “inner workings” of Sam. The Dean fandom wants a myth-arc storyline for Dean that is has at it’s center something about Dean being the “special/chosen” one for once. At this point, the possibility that the showrunner/wrtiers simply aren’t going to deliver on either of these things has to be considered. I’ve considered it and choose to keep watching(and yes, hoping), anyway. Perhaps that time has now come for more than a few here.

       Reply

       1. No one in the show or outside the show really has come outright and said about Dean’s involvement in saving the world …yes but then again no actually says about his part in flushing it down the toilet its always Sam is responsible whole and sole for that but while saving the world Dean’s contribution is Huge not while condemning it to apocalypse..It should go both ways..should highlight both of Dean’s involvement

          Reply

          1. Also if it is Dean’s PoV people will always focus on the less nobler reasons as he sees Sam as selfish arrogant etc.

             Reply

          2. All this means to me is that, in your eyes, Dean’s entirely unique part, that was not just an extension of Sam’s role in the apocalypse storyline, has been completely overlooked and/or ret-conned away, by the writers. If so, then yes, sadly IA.

             Reply

             1. I disagree that all we see of Sam is what has been show to us through Dean’s eyes. We, or at least *I* have seen much more of who Sam is-both the good and the bad or less than desirable-through his behavior than anything else. My feeling after watching these writers write for almost 7 seasons is that more often than not what they have the characters say is just back-up for what they’ve tried to show through the characters actions and interactions. The difference between this type of show and tell is one of the writings’ greatest weaknesses on this show, however and IMO, and is often the source of most of the debating on the boards-that, and the unreliable narrator, again IMO. But episodes such as Sam, Interrupted, I Know what you Did Last Summer, When the Levee Breaks, and Good God, Y’all, just to name a few-showed Sam himself seeing and supposedly recognizing those same flaws that Dean-and rarely, I’d say-has pointed out in Sam. Ans Sam has pointed out the faults and flaws the writers intended and wanted us to know about Dean, too, going all the way back to Asylum. A bigger difference for me is that Dean has far more often given kind and loving props to both Sam AND Bobby, series-long, than they’ve given to him, and this has been an especially glaring thing to me since Dean returned from hell.

             2. This hasn’t been my interpretation at all. Dean, as far as I’ve seen, goes for the ‘brutal honesty’ approach far more than the other two.

                Sometimes it comes in the form of deeply rooted coping mechanisms that have him lash out and push guilt and anger he himself feels onto others. (See “Everybody Loves a Clown” for one of many examples.)

                Other times it comes from love and genuine fear and concern. (See Metamorphosis for one of many examples.)

                But nonetheless, the words are often harsh and often have the effect of shutting down the conversation or pushing Sam away.

                Something else that sticks out in my mind is that despite all the claims about how Dean’s hell angst was not well reacted to by Sam and Bobby, it never altered his behavior. Sam tells him that he’s weak, he gets mad and wants to prove he isn’t. Bobby tells Dean to suck it up, he takes a stand and almost saves the day. I’m thinking Dean isn’t all that fragile and maybe the people around him know exactly what he does and doesn’t respond to.

             3. Sam projects also-he calls Dean “weak and a coward” in Sex and Violence, but we saw that he feels it about himself in The Man Who Knew Too Much-and yet this has never been discussed and most likely probably never will be, evne though to me, Dean is right now feeling the effects of what Sam said to him in that episode-amongst all the other things he’s pushed deep down inside himself since then and even from before that, even from his childhood, for goodness sake!-he’s pushed so many things down so that he would be able to function/perform his “duties” as everyone’s caretaker. *I’m* thinking that Dean IS that fragile, but that the people around him just don’t want him to be and it’s too hard for them to accept that he might be and they can’t handle it when he even begins to go there-and so we get them falling back on the default temporary fix of telling him that you have to suck it up, Dean, because you cannot implode on us. You just can’t and so there really is no other choice but for you to suck it up again because no one knows how to really help you because maybe there simply is NO help for you… and it’s sad and tragic beyond words that this is probably true. This time around I’d only like to see him find his worth in hunting again because I think it is his calling in life and something that could genuinely help him feel good about himself again. I wish Sam and Bobby would help him with this, but it may not turn out that way. I guess we’ll see.

             4. 1) I disagree that that was projecting. It was blurted out under ‘siren spell truth pill, now with bonus spite.’ And it was during Sam’s period of arrogance and feeling unduly strong. So I’m thinking that was about Dean and Dean alone.

                2) Trying to paint Sam and Bobby as the most emotionally repressive relatives ever forgets that Sam spent a large part of the beginning of S4 trying to get Dean to open up.

                3) And before ‘and then threw it in his face’ gets trotted out, Dean’s guilt that he confessed was as to torturing souls and liking it, on being corrupt, not as to being weak. They weren’t inconsequential charges and they did cut down Dean, but they also weren’t ‘his confession being thrown in his face.’

                4) Dean’s own siren spell confession wasn’t that benign either. “The Sam I knew, he’s gone” feeds right into the previous charges of having strayed too far from human and the final word that triggered the big split, “monster”. ‘If I didn’t know you, I’d want to hunt you’ and ‘I don’t feel like I know you anymore’ fit very well together and yield a rather toxic mixture.

                5) It’s ironic that ‘suck it up’ is treated as the worst thing that could ever be said to Dean because he’s utilized that more than a few times. Sam Interrupted, M3TR being more obvious examples, but far from the only ones.

             5. Not just by writers but by you too…and that is the problem

             6. From where I stand, it isn’t the writers that overlooked Dean’s role, it’s the fans that have. Such a shame, in my opinion, since I thought he came out of the whole deal a hero and just as much responsible for the safety of the world as Sam, as it was ultimately their connection to each other and not Sam himself that overcame the devil.

             7. If it is never mentioned by the writers in their writing and through the dialogue that the characters have, than it is the writers who have overlooked it-not the fans, IMO-and this is something that might make Dean feel good or redeemed-just as it was a large part of Sam’s redemption.

             8. Lisa called Dean “the guy who basically just saved the world”. Actually, I can’t recall anyone ever telling Sam he saved the world, so Dean’s not only heard it at this point, he’s heard it more than Sam has.

                Apart from direct and particular acknowledgement of Dean, there’s also been Cas’s characterization of the world having been saved by “two boys, an old drunk and a fallen angel” and Dean’s comment in the last episode as to how “we’ve” steered the bus away from the cliff already.

                This is all before I even touch Chuck’s parting monologue about how the key to everything was family.

                So I’d say the writing has acknowledged it and judging from his comment in the latest episode, I’d say the message has gotten through to Dean.

             9. Yes the writers have acknowledged it..I take my comment back about writers not acknowledging it… 😳 I should not have blamed them..after all they have given us this story..(which is my most favorite show of all time)

             10. At this point and considering where his head is presently at, I think Dean needs to hear hearfelt, positive, but most importantly, respectful words about his strength to endure and and especially about his abilities as a hunter from Sam and/or Bobby(well, I guess not Bobby now…)-the two people who are supposedly the most important people in the world to him. But we can just agree to disagree on this…

             11. I think Dean needs to start listening to his inner voice and come up with his own reasons why he hunts and why his life has meaning. Validation from outside sources only goes so far.

                 And there has been validation from Sam. Just rewatch A Very Supernatural Christmas. Both young Sam and older Sam show they value Dean by giving him a gift (the amulet as a child and the Christmas celebration as an adult – Sam did it for Dean even though he found it painful. He threw in a bonus gift of watching the game instead of forcing Dean to talk about his feelings. 😉 )

             12. Exactly! Sam can’t make Dean feel better about himself. That is something Dean will have to do on his own.

                 Sam can be there for Dean, which he already is. Sam can say positive things to Dean, which he does. But Sam can’t make Dean believe Sam’s words. Dean has to find his self-worth on his own. Sam can’t do that for him.

             13. Not in my eyes…This is what you interpreted from what i said

20. I’m feeling bad with reading so many unsatisfied reactions from the fans (especially on this site that was always so positive in the past). Between this and the AOL site and Mo’s complaining about things that I don’t see myself, I do fear the PTB might cancel my favourite show. 😕

    I’ve just suffered a personal loss, so things are in a different perspective right now, and my love for the Winchester boys are helping me cope and all the depressing complaints are making me consider quitting the board for the good of my mental health at the moment.

    I know that everyone is entitled to their opinions and that is good, but I would just love to read some positive posts from anyone. Perhaps only the discontented post the most and the happy ones don’t. I hope that is the case and that the people who create the show realize that they are appreciated by the many.

    I have 3 friends who are rabid Supernatural fans and they are loving season 7 (like I am) the best since season 3. Those 3 and I both thought that season 4 (that so many loved so much) was the least enjoyable of all the seasons so far (even though it had many marvelous episodes, the brothers were at odds). And none of them post on any board, so, I have to believe that there are more out there.

    Hah! After all that rant, I just want it on the record that I am loving season 7 so far and am eternally grateful to Kripke, Gamble, Edlund, Manners, Singer, Ladouceur etc etc and the wonderful J’s, Jensen, Jared, Jim and Jeffrey and all the awesome guest stars that have appeared throughout the years.

    Tina Charles and Gaelicspirit and most reviewers on this site still are loving the show and have faith in the creators and are enjoying it so far this year.

    Supernatural is keeping me from hitting rock bottom right now and I thought it needed a little positive opinion of encouragement and appreciation. 🙂

    I know this won’t change anybody’s opinion, it’s just a thumb’s up vote for my favourite show. I’m sure most stopped reading halfway through! 😉

    Reply

    1. Sorry that you think we are so negative Bevie. To be honest, most of the the articles and threads on this site I think are pretty positive. We are happy fans and love the show. However, it can’t be sunshine and praise all the time especially when there are issues. We are critical thinkers, and this is a serious topic. Some of us think there have been some deficiencies in the way Sam’s arc has been handled. This type of discussion honestly has been nothing new for us.

       Perhaps I’ve been falling short of posting more uplifting articles lately. To be honest, I don’t have the active writing staff I used to (a lot have stopped writing for personal reasons) and my time in limited as well. I’ve got a fun one coming up, a slideshow of Sam Winchester nicknames. I’ll try to do more fannish stuff for you, but in the meantime, we do gotta keep it real at times too.

       Reply

    2. May I echo Alice’s comment here? I definitely don’t find that this is a negative site (trust me, I’ve been around!) The posts and posters who are hugely positive and enthusiastic about the show vastly outweigh those who are having doubts so it’s definitely not a case that only those who grumble, post.

       To be honest, I don’t even think this is a negative article. It merely posited a question in relation to whether or not Sam Winchester is okay. Some feel he is, some feel he’s not. There are those (including me) who might express dissatisfaction, or even dislike of a particular aspect of the show but that does not automatically equate to disliking the show itself.

       If the show continues in the vein that it’s going will I continue to watch? Yep, course I will. I’ll still buy the DVD’s and visit sites etc. (I have to keep coming here. I’m currently embroiled in a non-sexual, platonic relationship with three people whose names I don’t even know over on CBOX!) I just won’t be as enthusiastic about that part of the show as I have been in the past so I guess I’ll either adapt or accept.

       And Bevie, I really wouldn’t worry. The PTB are not going to cancel the show because some people have expressed dissatisfaction with it (hell, I download. I don’t think my viewing even counts). If they didn’t cancel after the criticism season 6, season 5, and season 4 received then they certainly aren’t going to do it now. You could still be watching the Winchesters when they are old and grey (the good, sexy kind of grey…)

       Reply

    3. Waves! I’m loving the season as well, though of course not every episode hits it out of the park. It’s always fun to debate character arcs and I have enjoyed both Sam’s and Dean’s this season. We started out with a big bang for Sam with the SatanVision, which is now simmering somewhat ominously and focused in tightly on Dean. I suspect that will change very soon.

       It’s always hard when one particular story line isn’t advancing as fast as the viewer might like, but I think Supernatural is pretty even handed with how it develops the boys. In my travels, I think I’ve read about the same amount of discontent on either guy not getting enough of a story line. (-:

       I think Sam will destabilize very soon and when he does, the changes in the relationship between he and Dean will come into play. He’s not so much the little brother, now.

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    4. You know Bevie, just follow my example here. I start reading a post, and if I see it’s going to be negative all the way, I just skip to the next, and so on. I love this site, but yeah, I find some people are becoming overly negative about a show we all love and we do not want to see go by any means. SPN brings me great pleasure especially when I’m down, so I understand where you’re coming from. Keep posting, because you are one of the positive ones that I like to read. Let me just add that I’m loving season 7 so far, and I’m sure the rest will be just as good. We get 23 episodes this season people, cause to celebrate.

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    5. Bevie, dear, I am so very sorry to hear that you have been suffering. Whatever that personal loss you refer to is – the way you are telling us about it allows me to assume that it must be very painful to you, and being acquainted with loss myself, I wish I could say something to soothe your pain at least a bit.

       But I also know that words are rarely helpful, they are only shadows of emotions, and they seldom reflect the depth of the pit loss can throw us into. To my own experience the pain can last a long time, and as long as we love, it hurts, but – as I see it and what always helps me when memories tear at my heart –I truly believe that the feeling of loss is another face of love. A darker one, true. Sometimes so dark it seems to be unbearable. But when I remember that the pain is there because love still is, I sometimes feel a smile in my soul. Because love is not the worst legacy.

       I can understand well how Supernatural has been able to support you and help you to cope with what you are going through right now. The courage under fire, as Hemingway would have it, our beloved characters show can be inspiring and sometimes help us to find our own strength and hope and reason to go on, despite everything that hurts us.

       I doubt that the show will be cancelled, try not to worry about that, dear. I believe there are many “happy ones” out there who don’t post anywhere but watch the show and love it, just as you do. I am also one of those happy ones that love the show like on day one. I have minor issues about some aspects of the show, but I don’t let them spoil my fun of enjoying it. Just as those that need to stress what they are dissatisfied with are entitled to their opinions, the others that love it are, too. Apart from other personal reasons, the changes of climate on this board made me withdraw from writing as I used to. For the time being, I enjoy loving the show in a more quiet and/or private way. I think other fans that don’t comment do so as well.

       Don’t be discouraged, Bevie. This show will prove for decades to come that it is one of the best, if not [i]the [/i] best, tv shows around. And it will be there – I hope and trust – to help you in your time of sorrow.

       I wish I could say or do anything else to help you, but wouldn’t want to impose it on you. I do hope you are not alone in this, and your “rabid” fellow fans can be there for you, providing hugs, chocolate or whatever might bring a smile to your face. At least once in a while.

       My heart goes out to you, dear Bevie. And I pray that the pain you are going through right now will soon, very soon become bearable and then – hopefully – cease. My best wishes. Jas

       Reply

    6. Hi Bevie,

       I’m so sorry to hear you have suffered a personal loss of some kind. I offer you hugs and tea (of the internet variety).

       I totally agree with you that Supernatural can be anchor when the waters of your life are turbulent. I discovered Supernatural during a rocky phase of my own life. It’s saved my sanity on more than one occasion.

       You’re definitely not alone in enjoying Season 7. I’m right there beside you. I like the unfolding Leviathan mystery. And I appreciate the fact the writers are taking a look at the toll the hunting life takes on caring, compassionate people (that would be Dean, Sam and Bobby.)

       I know you’re looking for something more positive, and a bit lighter. I’m just putting the finishing touches on a piece that looks at food and the boys. What can I say? I was inspired by Turducken!!

       Sending you all the best & warm thoughts,

       Pragmatic Dreamer 8) (Okay I picked that icon, just ‘cuz it makes me smile!)

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    7. Hi Bevie,
       I know what you mean. Supernatural has and is helping me through some difficult RL as well. I am happy with S7 and do NOT agree with much of the criticism leveled at the show. I just don’t have the mental energy to compose a long, detailed post.
       I’m watching it and enjoying the show — its only fandom that isn’t as much fun right now.
       Don’t worry about the show being canceled — ratings are what matters, not comments on web pages, and ratings are fine. See Alice’s excellent article on ratings.
       Hang in there, Bevie, Friday’s coming!!

       Reply

21. Heres how it will go. How it’s always gone since S1.

    Big issue of the season presented in episode 1 or 2 .

    Rest of the season spent mentioning occasionally , but mostly ignoring, big issue in favor of stand alone and comedy episodes. The exception being the mid season finale, usually.

    Big issue returns in the final 2 episodes of the season.

    Therefore, no, he is not ok but he’s saving it up for the last 2 episodes of season 7.

    BTW purplehairedwonder I noticed that scene in the diner too. Glad I wasn’t the only one.

    Reply

    1. But what if the big issue is the Leviathan, not Sam?

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22. I was half waiting for him to turn around to Dean and say “Ok Lucifer, enough is enough, I know you’re not Dean.”

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23. Ugh, my posting manners have been seriously shitty, aka there aren’t any.

    Great article Alice! Very thinky and politely put. And I agree on a lot.

    I’m feeling a little out of touch with this show right now but the season is not done and I do have a bit of faith left. A tiny bit but it can make a huge difference so I’m onboard this ship ’till the very end.

    But thank you for this piece, and for the opportunity to vent 🙂

    Reply

24. Thanks for an insightful and timely article, Alice.

    And Tim, you stated so clearly, what I can never manage to articulate from my brain to the screen.

    I would add that one of the reasons that we don’t know who Sam is, is that [b]Dean[/b] doesn’t know who Sam really is. If we, as the audience see Sam and the story through Dean’s eyes, then it follows.

    Dean may have made strides towards not treating Sam like a little kid anymore, but he really seems to have no more insight into what makes Sam tick than he had seven years ago. Whlie Sam understands Dean’s motivations and reactions, his issues and why he is the way he is, and accepts them, Dean has no such insight.

    As you said, the show doesn’t show us Sam’s motivations so we assume them. We infer from Sam’s words and actions that though he wanted to get away from John, he looked up to Dean, so his motivation for going to college was not to abandon his whole family. Dean doesn’t see it that way so that’s what we get when there is all of the sudden dialogue in season 5 PONR that Sam says that he was wrong every time he left. Um… okay.

    Season 4 left us to decide for ourselves what motivated Sam to drink demon blood, and we once again infer that he felt guilty and grief stricken and practically suicidal, according to IKWYDLS. Oops….wrong again. According to season 5, he was angry, prideful and self righteous.

    This is what Dean sees so this is the Sam we’re supposed to buy. The occasional insight from Sam to Dean always seems to suprise Dean. It actually makes me roll my eyes when Dean looks so shocked to know that Sam thinks the demon blood inside can’t be washed clean or scrubbed away so he’s trying to do something good with it, or when Sam tells him that [b]part[/b] of the reason he went with Ruby was because of the way Dean treats him and looks at him. As I said, Dean doesn’t look below the surface so we don’t get to either. I’m not bashing Dean, it’s just part of his personality, like using humor to mask fear or pain.

    Just my take.

    Reply

    1. I think Sam is a difficult character to pin down, which is why Bobby said he’s always been deep. (-:

       I’ve always taken it that all of the traits you mention are Sam’s, not that only some are. Sam did want to get away from John, he did look up to Dean, his motivation was not to abandon his whole family, but he realised he was wrong to run away as a strategy.

       Sam did feel guilty and grief-stricken and the way he expressed that was by focusing of revenge, which did lead him to get angry, prideful and self-righteous–which led him to make poor decisions. Realising that helped him his huge good decision at the end of season 5.

       This kind of writing is why I love Supernatural. Not only are the characters textured in believable ways, both boys are unique specific characters who have their own points of view.

       I give Dean more credit in how he sees Sam–he’s believed in Sam’s strength when even Sam didn’t–but he doesn’t know Sam inside and out. No one does. Sam’s hidden himself with an exterior projection his whole life. I do think Dean knows him better than anyone else, though.

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       1. Dean knows what Sam is likely to do, where he’s likely to go, what car he’s likely to steal if he runs away. He can tend to his physical needs and and will never fail to protect him. He loves him. However, I don’t think he knows who Sam is and rarely interacts with him on an emotional level. Look at “The mentalists”. Dean got angry about Sam being mad, and admitted that lying to him made him feel bad. There was no apology for the way the lie made Sam feel, no attempt to really talk to his brother and try to find out more on why Sam was so angry and what makes him tick.

          In Season 3, Dean thought that Sam was strong enough to go on knowing he was in Hell. He couldn’t have been more wrong. He thought that Sam wouldn’t be strong enough to fight Lucifer in Season 5. He was wrong again. I think that Bobby knows Sam better than Dean, frankly.

          Reply

          1. To me, Dean knows Sam on a much deeper basis. I think Dean was well aware of why Sam was angry–that’s why he didn’t go into a conversation of why Sam let Amy go. He didn’t agree, but he understood Sam’s reasons. He remembers 15 year old unhappy lonely Sam and he remembers the conflicted brother who was afraid he was a monster and needed understanding.

             To my mind, that’s why Dean went behind Sam’s back instead of pushing him to kill Amy. And why The Mentalists conversation centered on apologizing for lying, not why Sam was mad.

             I don’t think anyone could really know what Sam was going through in regard to Hell–it was new ground for everyone. Still is. I also think Dean did end up believing in Sam’s ability to fight Lucifer–that’s why he turned up at the end and kept talking to Sam/Lucifer.

             I always read Dean’s reluctance to say yes to Sam’s plan to include that he wasn’t prepared to risk losing Sam. His arc was to realise he had to let Sam go.

             I agree, though, that Sam is hard to really know. But as much as anyone does, Dean does. Bobby, too–that’s why he’ll be so missed if he’s gone. )-:

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             1. Actually, Sam seemed to be more angry at being lied to, so Dean going behind Sam’s back is not a good indication that he knows Sam, IMO. To tell you the truth, I think that Dean lied for the exact same reason that Sam lied in season 4: he knew Sam would be mad/disappointed and he didn’t want a confrontation about it. I wish Sam had challenged him on it. And I should probably re-watch, but I’m pretty sure that Dean never apologized. It would have made a huge difference in my enjoyment of the episode.

                And I don’t agree on Hell being new territory. In fact, Dean was uniquely qualified to know what it would feel like for Sam. John’s similar deal started Dean’s season 2 depression, and Dean also knew what it felt like to lose his brother.

             2. I think Sam went through a range of emotions, beginning with being angry about Dean’s decision about Amy (“You killed my friend”) and ending with wanting to know why Dean lied when it obviously didn’t feel right to him.

                Dean clarified that he stood by his gut feeling about Amy but that lying to Sam didn’t feel right to him and that’s why he’d been so miserable. I think that’s an apology for the lying. Sam seemed to hear it that way.

                I think Dean knew Sam well enough to know that when Sam thought it through, he’d understand (perhaps not agree with) Dean’s reasons for killings Amy, just as Dean understood (but did not agree with) Sam’s reasons for letting her go. That just left the lie as the issue between them. To me, that’s the way it played out.

                On Hell, Dean knows what’s like to be tortured, but he didn’t know what it would be like to have to fight Lucifer in order to jump into Hell. Now, he doesn’t know what it’s like to have his soul flayed by Lucifer. What Sam went through is not the same thing as Dean went through. Castiel didn’t think Sam could survive getting his soul back. This is uncharted territory.

                However, I agree that if anyone can come close to understanding Sam, it’s Dean because of what he went through.

             3. I guess what I was trying to say (pretty badly I think) was that I don’t feel that Dean TRIES to understand Sam. He takes care of him because he always has and and knows the things about Sam that he needs to in order to do his job. Rarely will he ask how Sam feels about something or why he feels the way he does. He wants to know if Sam’s ok, and that’s it. Dean’s been portrayed as depressed for the majority of the last 3-4 seasons, and depressed people mostly care about how much their life sucks, so it’s probably why he’s emotionally distant from Sam.

                Regarding “The mentalist” discussions between the guys, I just feel like It’s another “Fallen Idols”: badly written, and much too one-sided. At the end though, I just needed Dean to apologize. Dean saying how lying made him feel without acknowledging how it hurt Sam is not an apology in my opinion. It came across to me as Dean saying that he hated lying but he had to do it because he couldn’t trust Sam’s sanity. Argh. I guess you can tell I really hated that episode, lol.

             4. Yeah (-: Different strokes, YMMV, etc.

                I loved the ep. I think Dean cares very much about how Sam feels, but he doesn’t discuss that kind of thing with anyone, ever. (-: It’s not a Dean thing to talk about feelings. No chick moments!

                I think Dean’s explanation was that he decided to lie because he was afraid of Sam’s sanity, but that once he had, it didn’t feel right to him and then he was miserable.

                I think you are totally right Dean has been depressed this season. I find, though, that makes him more emotionally distant from himself–he does everything he can to avoid looking inward. He still connected with Sam to anchor him in reality during hallucinations.

                However, we can agree to disagree–I had fun discussing it with you!

             5. I had fun too. 🙂

                I just wish I was enjoying Sam’s story this year.

    2. Brilliant topic for discussion Alice and a nice article accompanying it.I completely agree with you…I was completely surprised about the same thing in season4.what i was seeing was Sam was practically grasping straws was desperate to somehow get dean back .We should not forget that he had already tried to save Dean for the whole year and I can get why he was so suicidal.Now it would be simple if the Demons thought oh! poor Sam has lost Dean, we should let him mourn and then we will come for him.That is not what had happened if we see for what purposes they wanted Sam they had sam where they wanted him to be.Let me say at that moment Sam had tried everything to save dean (the year prior to Dean’s death)and he did not know that Dean was coming back or the angels were going to save Dean(if that is what they did)for all intent and purposes he had failed in saving dean and then when Ruby came and gave him a way of getting revenge (because you cannot kill lilith by colt or knife because we have seen they could not kill the demon who was possessing one of the witches i think tammy washer name)he took that.I always thought revenge came to his mind only after every option of saving dean was exhausted.
       And about his anger issues atleast they were nonexistant till the show mentioned it because if i am not wrong people who have this issue get angry pretty quickly he never knew normal, his girlfriend died,father died,brother died and he is lucifers vessel will he angry after all this. it is very logical
       Most of the times when i ascertain Sam’s motives by his actions i have either dean or chuck telling me otherwise but for dean or bobby or castiel we don’t have scenes where anyone just 180s their intentions,this is why i want Sam’s POV some times so that they just not focus on his anger but also on the desperation that led to the anger,not only his pride but the abomination tag and the failure of the people who called him abomination and his success that that which led to that pride( because for all the angels claimed to be able to save the world they were unsuccessful in alistairs case)

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       1. the you is Alice as well as sylvia37, some times i wonder something happened to sam ins 7 when he was not with dean

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    3. Both brothers can push each others buttons but Dean pushing sam’s butons has led him away from dean (when he goes to kill lilith) and Sam pushing dean’s buttons has led him towards Sam (saying no to michael) In that way i think you are right..Saying that, i like this well adjusted sam it really tells that Sam is very strong mentally that he can keep hell at bay (even if he knows he can be over the brink any moment)..I find him handling it nicely without resorting to drinking…He is proving everyone (angels,castiel)wrong about him being weak and even though he breaks down (please let him not)he could keep hell at bay for so long commendable Sam…

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25. Sam is as hard to know has the writers chose him to be. They made him harder than needed to be.
    The dramatic sl they had with Sams wall falling has been wasted IMO.

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26. I know this is probably not at all what the writers were going for but…

    Have any of you re- lived or a traumatic memory?

    It’s a weird experience. See, before I felt like I had a black cloud hanging over me, this terrible threat. Anxiety, depression, panic attacks. I had a total breakdown.

    But after I remembered, the light shone through and I wasn’t scared or depressed any more. It was like once I remembered what had caused the problem and integrated it It stopped being a problem.

    It was still sad and it changed my relationships to a certain extent but, my point is, getting the hell memories back would have been terrifying. But thats really the worst part and after that it gets better.

    Reply

    1. I did live through a trauma when I was a teenager. My whole world pretty much collapsed around me and I was in a major funk for quite some time, but then I put a brave face on, so as not to alarm my family. Not saying I was fine, I just hid my worst fears in the darkest resesses of my mind. It took me at least 5 to 6 years to finally talk myself off that ledge and I’m glad I did. Like you say, it’s like all of a sudden the clouds parted and the sun came out. That darkness still invades my mind sometimes, but I manage to push it away, and the thing that does it for me is my family’s love and support.

       Sorry for oversharing, but maybe that’s where the writers are going with Sam. Everyone thought I was doing just fine, because that is what I wanted them to think.

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27. As Dean gal can I hope to see a similar piece asking if Dean is OK? Since he was in Hell too, plus lost his [i]de facto[/i] wife/child and also his [i]de facto[/i] brother/best friend just recently?

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    1. We don’t need a piece like that, Maria. We can see that Dean’s not ok. Dean’s getting all the emotional focus right now.

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       1. I am actually surprised that Sam girls like yourself are unhappy with Sam’s story. He is being presented as the strongest, more well-adjusted most perfect character on the show and certainly a hell of a lot stronger than his weak, alcoholic brother who feels loss over things that he caused himself such as leaving Lisa and Ben. And of course, let’s not forget that Castiel only decided to turn himself into a God because Dean was mean to him. Just like Sam only went of with Ruby because Dean was mean to him. No wonder the guy is drowning in guilt.

          Reply

          1. Sam did not go to Ruby because Dean was mean to him but because Dean was not there and he was the only winchester remaining and she gave him a way to get revenge .This is what i mean by Sam’s POV, we got it too late and it is seen as because Dean was mean but we should not forget about the months he spent without dean came first and by the time dean came back sam was trusting ruby

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             1. I also think Sam went to Ruby because he was lost without Dean. But Sam himself does no think that. He, himself, in his own words, said he went to Ruby to get away from Dean who was too bossy. He also said that things never worked between Dean and Sam. That is how Sam feels and the writers were pretty unequivocal in presenting his point of view. Do I like it that Sam feels that is OK to blame his brother for his own failures? No. But I certainly have no doubt as to his POV on that issue.

             2. [quote]…..Sam feels that is OK to blame his brother for his own failures?….[/quote]
                The rest of the quotation from that scene…

                [i][b]Dean:[/b] You saying this is my fault?
                [b]Sam: [/b] No, it’s my fault.[/i]

                Doesn’t sound like the show is laying the fault at Dean’s feet. Sam’s POV is that is was entirely his own fault. Also in that scene,

                [i][b]Sam: [/b]Look, I know what I did, what I’ve done but I’m trying to climb out of that hole.[/i]

                Again, sounds like Sam is accepting responsibility, whole responsibility.

             3. Yeah we will have to agree to disagree Tim.

                When someone says it’s my fault but your dickishness made me do it and you have to change or I am running away again, that ain’t taking responsibility in my book.

                Just the fact that Dean rolled over took the blame by apologizing at the end is the show tacitly saying Sam was right and the ultimate fault lies with Dean. The final apology was not Dean apologizing for his part in the breakdown in the relationship and Sam saying they both made mistakes or he was equally to blame. It was Sam oh-so-graciously accepting the apology as his due.

                By the way, how was Sam climbing out of the hole if his response was to threaten to ditch Dean again unless Dean did what Sam wanted? That is not taking responsibility, IMO, that is shifting the responsibility of changing on to the other person.

                This is exactly the sort of manipulative writing I was talking about in my last post that you claim does not exist. It’s a bait and switch where Sam says he is taking responsibility but in point of fact, he is shifting it onto someone else. Yet you bought it hook, line and sinker, while I did not. So who is allowing the writers to tell them what to think?

             4. Sam knows no one controlled his actions and he’s responsible for the consequences of his choices.

                But he also recognizes that their relationship was not functional when they weren’t equal partners. To avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, they need to address the root of their conflict. Why is that so difficult to understand?

             5. So in Sam’s mind, the root of the conflict was that Dean was too bossy and if only he had followed Sam instead of disagreeing with him, none of this would have happened. Oh wait.

                How is that not blaming Dean for Sam’s actions? Nowhere in that conversation does Sam address his own failures in their relationship. That his own pride and arrogance and ego were also leading him towards Ruby. Nor does he apologize for his failures or the many ways in which he has hurt his brother. The only apology forthcoming that episode was from Dean. And no, I do not feel that his generic apology in season premiere counted. Not when Dean spent the rest of the season constantly apologizing and taking responsibility for Sam’s bad behavior from season 4.

                So yes, I do think the writing has been bad for Sam but not for the reasons that are being bemoaned here. Sam is not and has never been presented as equally invested in the brotherly relationship. Which is not wrong per se and definitely healthier, but it becomes problematic when the entire show is built on that relationship. Especially when other characters are killed off if they take away too much attention from the relationship while it continues to be so one-sided.

             6. Sam in Season 2 died not agreeing to Azazel That was how he had saved the world and Dean brought him back well Sam has never Said this but yeah Dean is really responsible for all of Sam’s misery.If Dean was a dick (and he was)(not saying sam was not too but then how Dean reacts is up to him) Sam could not have reacted to it..that is what he takes responsibility to ,his reactions why should he take responsibility for Dean being a dick.Sam is not equally invested in brotherly relation ship and that is why i like him ..He just does not want to be the best brother he wants to be a husband , a father , a son , a brother… and as you have written further below yes First time they are presenting Sam as a very strong hero and yes i am glad that the show is presenting it because if not again we would see it through Dean and sam would be weak and at the brink in our mind thank you Sera gamble

             7. Sam never blamed Dean for bringing him back that is why i like Sam…because fans like me blame Dean but not sam himself…

             8. Sam died in season 2 because he dropped his knife. He didn’t choose to die, he was murdered. And it would be absolutely insane of him to blame Dean for his misery.

             9. yes but by dropping the knife he did not play by azazels rules,that is what i meant…He died and went to heaven then he was brought back by Dean and he again became a part of the plan…that is the misery…Sam will never blame him but i do..

             10. So, I guess Dean should have just let Sam stay dead. So, basically you’re insinuating that you wanted to show to end in season 2?

             11. Dean should not have..that is what i am saying .If angels have brought back Dean so that their plan works don’t you think
                 something similar would be planned for Sam

             12. I don’t believe the writers had thought about bringing angels into the picture at that time. So no, the angels wouldn’t have brought Sam back. Kripke needed Dean to sell his soul in order to tell the story he wanted to tell.

             13. I said something similar not angels themselves…

          2. [quote]He is being presented as the strongest, more well-adjusted most perfect character on the show and certainly a hell of a lot stronger than his weak, alcoholic brother who feels loss over things that he caused himself such as leaving Lisa and Ben. No wonder the guy is drowning in guilt.[/quote]
             It would be awesome; it would be beyond awesome if this is what the show decided to show. Though not a ‘Samgirl’ (why does that word and ‘Deangirl’ make me cringe?), I’d be more than happy to see Sam presented as being strong, loyal, independent, dependable and well-adjusted and not the weak, selfish, needy, deceitful traitor the show has chosen to emphasise these past number of years.

             However, they haven’t shown this. Instead, they’ve made Sam a non-entity. Need to show some Dean angst, have him worry about his brother who went off on his own during the brother’s sacred annual trip to Vegas. Need to show some Dean sorrow, have him gaze forlornly at a phone which shows Sam didn’t call him. Need to show some Dean frustration, let’s have Sam get whammied. Need Dean to show some anger? Let’s have him unleash a verbal tirade on Sam. (I often wonder what the reaction would have been like if the roles were reversed and Sam had let loose on Dean.) Need to show how far Castiel has fallen? Let him shatter the wall in Sam’s head. Why not? It’ll be of little consequence anyway. That’s not showing Sam as a strong, well-adjusted, perfect character, it’s showing him as a plot device.

             And unfortunately, by making Sam the plot device by which other characters feel anger/pain/guilt/frustration etc it’s reduced him once again to, as he was described in 7.02, ‘our other big problem’. Hardly the signs of a strong, well-adjusted and perfect character.

             Dean’s descent has been well-chronicled for over three years now. We know [i]why[/i] he is where he is and as a result it’s made his position now both understandable and relatable. Sam’s, in the blink of an eye, ascent from a guilt and Hell-ridden basket case to being the strongest, most well-adjusted man on the face of the earth is not.

             [quote]And of course, let’s not forget that Castiel only decided to turn himself into a God because Dean was mean to him.
             [/quote]
             Castiel put his plan in relation to the souls into play at a time when he wasn’t even in contact with Dean so how can it be blamed on Dean being ‘mean’ to Castiel?

             [quote]Just like Sam only went of with Ruby because Dean was mean to him.[/quote]

             Again, Sam went with Ruby while Dean was in hell so unless Dean was being a big meanie to Sam from way down under, Sam’s decision to go off with Ruby can’t be blamed on Dean.

             Sam’s decision to go off with Ruby was based on…. ummm, vengeance, anger, despair? Not sure really. Hey, maybe they both used the same hair care products and so got together for that reason? (That explanation is as good as any the show has given us.)

             Reply

             1. “Sam’s decision to go off with Ruby was based on…. ummm, vengeance, anger, despair?”
                Yes, all of these, IMO-in addition to his always wanting to have full control over his own life-which also often makes him see Dean as being as overly-controlling as their father was-even though Dean, in actuality and again IMO(and going by what we’ve been shown series-long), has less in common with John in this regard than Sam thinks.

             2. Unfortunately Shelby, we can speculate as to what motivated Sam but speculation is not knowledge. Speculation is not canon. We do not [i]KNOW[/i] why Sam went with Ruby, we do not know why he started drinking blood, we do not know why he said yes to Lucifer, we do not know why he ran away, or went to college. We do not know how he felt when Dean went to hell for him, or when John died or after he released Lucifer. We can speculate and guess and think that we know but again, until the show acknowledges it, we can not know. And while constantly speculating what motivates Sam to do what he does can be fun, it can also be tiring and frustrating.

                I mentioned vengeance, anger despair as possible motivations. I could easily have mentioned stupidity, arrogance, a yearning for the dark side, as a ‘feck you’ to Dean, and all of those could be valid reasons as to why he did what he did and until the show starts to acknowledge the person of Sam and not the character of Sam, we will be forever in the dark.

                And while the show has short-changed Dean on many an occasion, I do not feel that character exposition is one of them.

             3. I honestly feel that we WERE shown very well why Sam went with Ruby in When the Levee Breaks and I Know What You Did Last Summer and we were even told why in Fallen Idols. So instead of going around and around in circles about what was shown/told to us beyond a shadow of a doubt, I will simply agree to disagree with you on this.

             4. I should have added that those episodes gave insight as to why Sam did all the other things you mentioned also, IMO. As did the scene with Chuck in The Monster at the End of the Book.
                Dean’s reasonings for making the deal were laid out in much the same way, IMO. These writers often use anvils when it’s unnecessary; and then choose to be too subtle or skip over things entirely when they should be more forthright in the dialogue, IMO-but again I see it in regards to how all the characters on the show have been written and really from the very beginning, IMO. Huge swings in characterizations, plot holes galore, weird “twists” that came out of nowhere/inattention to canon, a more juvenile and crude sense of humor, and too much meta-all these things having permeated the writing since mid-S5, IMO and have only shown a spotlight on that first thing more now, and again IMO.

             5. [quote]”Sam’s decision to go off with Ruby was based on…. ummm, vengeance, anger, despair?”
                Sam never had much of control over the direction his life would go till he went to Stanford and not much even after that how many seasons did he have to wait to drive impala when Dean was well..is it so bad to want to at least have semblance of control in ones life .no wonder he sees Dean as bossy…

             6. I don’t disagree that the writing for Sam has been utter crap. But I believe the intent is show Sam has the show’s bestest, strongest hero over. The fact that Gamble has chosen to present this Sam with about as much skill as a 12-year-old first time fanfic writers does not change in the intent, IMO.

             7. Tim, the only thing I disagree w/you about is Dean’s current story. I am not satisfied w/Dean’s OR Sam’s stories this year.

                I completely agree w/you that Dean’s descent has been very well-chronicled, but the problem is they took last year off and left Dean in a place where his “depression” was not the primary focus – if he was even depressed last year, which I don’t think he was.

                I think part of the reason I enjoyed S6 as much as I did is b/c Dean wasn’t wallowing in depression like he was in S5 – at least he wasn’t for me. He is the POV character, so it’s a little much when it’s all depression, all the time. For me, S6 was a nice reprieve from Dean’s constant depression in S5. I understood it in S4 and thought it was pretty well-executed. Sadly, I did not care for Dean’s characterization in S5, and I had grown tired of his depression. But by the time DSOTM aired, I had had it w/Dean and his crappy attitude. I just didn’t want to see it anymore. There was no progression to the story. Dean was just depressed, and that’s how it was going to be.

                Thankfully, Dean wasn’t depressed and sad in S6. However, we’re now back to him being suicidal and overwhelmed. Why? What happened now? This sudden depression is not making much sense to me, and I’m not sure why he’s depressed right now. Some may speculate it’s the loss of Castiel, but Dean didn’t hear from Castiel for a whole year and didn’t break down b/c of it. And when Cas did re-surface, it’s not like Dean treated him all that nicely. I honestly don’t know why Dean would feel guilty or depressed about Castiel. Cas made his choices. He never told Dean about his plans and basically didn’t want to hear what Dean had to say. Sam is not going through ANY trauma, so Dean can’t be feeling upset or depressed about Sam’s “broken wall.” So, what’s his deal? That Amy plot (or what I like to call “waste of time plot”) can’t be the reason. Dean didn’t feel particularly guilty, and I didn’t buy that he was upset b/c he doesn’t like lying to Sam. And even if I did, that shouldn’t put him in a state of severe depression.

                They haven’t, IMO, given a reason for Dean’s current state of mind. I just want Dean to progress. Each year (except for S6), they return to Dean being “sad and depressed.” And since the show is told SOLELY from Dean’s POV nowadays – except for the occasional Bobby or Castiel episode – the show just feels morose and depressing.

                On another board, someone said they were ready for some “emotional resolution” w/Dean, and I must say I feel the same. Dean has in some form, shape, or fashion been constantly sad since S2. Where’s the resolution? I desperately need them to start telling a different story or for them to resolve his issues – whatever those may be. If they’re not going to focus on Sam, the least they could do is not keep Dean in the same emotional mess year after year.

             8. I thought they were laying the groundwork for Dean’s crash all through season 6. Instead of a clean break with Lisa and Ben, Dean ends up shoving Ben. The scene in Mannequin didn’t seem to have any purpose other to drive home that Dean had hurt Lisa and Ben and had “walked out on family.” They were brought back again just so they could be hurt more by his lifestyle (the demons in LiB).

                Everything about hunting seemed to turn against Dean. The victims he and Sam were saving were worse than than the things they were killing. Cas, who had been one of the good things in his life, was turned bad. He learned from Death that saving people had consequences in the natural order. Finally, his attempt to save Sam and shield him from his Hell memories failed.

             9. I don’t know. All I can say is Dean didn’t seem “depressed” to me last year. He didn’t seem super happy, but he wasn’t overcome by sadness either.

                I never felt Dean’s connection to Lisa or Ben, so the loss of them didn’t have an impact on me and it didn’t seem to affect Dean. I felt Dean returned to hunting fairly smoothly. I know many felt Dean wasn’t himself last year, but I never felt that way. As far as Sam is concerned, I saw Dean as saving Sam and getting Death to put up a Hell Wall, which was good for Sam.

                I loved Castiel, but his demise was not Dean’s fault or problem. For me, S6 didn’t set up Dean for this season’s overwhelming sadness and depression. That’s just my opinion though.

                I feel like Dean’s perspective jumped from fine or making it to overwhelmed by life. I think the transition could have been better.

             10. The reason for Dean’s depression now is because these writers refuse to give him an actual storyline so they constantly fall back on the emo. Not that I don’t think he has plenty of reason to want to off himself, considering how unremittingly miserable their lives are. But the alternatives are not better – Hell or memorex Heaven – so even death isn’t really an escape for Dean so this whole suicidal thing doesn’t actually make sense in the world that Kripke built. There is no escape.

             11. There is a huge difference between depression and “emo”. To my mind, the way you use this term in this context it becomes disrespectful to those people who really are affected by depression. And they are legion.

             12. I will agree with you there. Depression is a very serious thing to live with, and emo is just…not. I’ve known depressed, some have actually taken their lives and I’ve known emo. Usually moody teenagers. I’m running through these threads a little blindly, because I’ve kind of lost interest in most of them, but this one hit way too close to home to ignore.

             13. Same here. I don’t want to read every comment in this thread in detail, but when my eyes notice something like the comment I was referring to, I can’t ignore it, either.

                 It can be, as you have aptly noted, a lethal affliction. I am very sorry you have come into contact with that, in whatever way.

             14. Well I apologize if I came off as disrespectful to the illness. That was not my intention.

                 But I will not pretend to respect the writers depiction of Dean’s so-called depression because I do not have an ounce of faith in how he will recover from it. When he was suffering from PTSD, which is also a serious and sometimes deadly mental illness, their solution was to have some tell Dean to suck it up and stop whining and lo and behold he did. Do you think that was a respectful way to handle a very serious illness that exists in the real world?

                 Amd do you actually think this same writer, Sera Gamble who wrote ” It’s a Terrible Life” will bother to actually treat Dean’s depression with any kind of dignity? And will you be writing pissed off letters to her when she basically has someone either beat him up or berate him, much as Bobby did in this last episode, which will no doubt lead to his magical cure?

             15. I don’t think either Jas or myself wrote pissed off responses to you or anyone else. And yes PTSD is also a very serious mental affliction. But let’s not forget this is a [u]fictional[/u] show we’re talking about here.

             16. I can’t disagree with any of this, Sylvie. 🙂

             17. Hold your horses! Where is this coming from?
                 If you are pissed at the writers, please feel free to tell them. I’m not amused to get flak aimed at Sera & Co.
                 I can see that you are passionate about this show, but I’d like to ask you to mind your tone.

                 To my mind and the way I see Dean, for instance, he has never stopped suffering from PTSD or stopped being depressed. The signs are all there. He might not speak about it all the time, but he shows symptoms. And perhaps he will never recover from it completely. Personally, I doubt that he ever will. Unfortunately, some wounds received in the battle of life never heal.

                 If I look at him as if he were a real person – his reactions are in accordance with what he believes about himself (and the writers did an excellent job of keeping his journey psychologically adequate and real), the sort-of “life traps” (meaning rather unhealthy coping strategies, for instance) he’s established in the course of his life.

                 Everyone of us does.

                 Several existential, basic and emotional needs were not met in his childhood (such as: the need for security, for being accepted the way he is, etc).

                 One result of that is: when memories of past hurt/neglect/fear (etc) are revisited as an adult, we react – pretty much like a reflex – with a coping mode also established early in life.

                 In Dean’s case it is the mode of being withdrawn or the impulse to hide his inner conflicts. And, furthermore, another coping strategy of his is need for self-sacrifice (literally or metaphorically), which also means that he will always feel guilty when he doesn’t put other peoples’ needs first (in particular those of the ones closest to him). And, the third mode Dean repeatedly falls back to is the feeling of being inadequate, not good enough or unworthy of being loved.

                 It’s hardly possible to change these instinctive reactions on one’s own.
                 Dean would need professional help which, in all likelihood, he will never seek (I hope, though, that he will find a more constructive way of living with them). I

                 It saddens me to see how difficult it is for Dean to deal with the wounds in his soul (it’s similar with Sam, though Sam’s coping strategies are different, simply because the pattern of not-met needs in his childhood was different. He could use some help, too, of course).

                 And the way we see Dean behave is perfectly in accordance with his state of mind and the still lasting depression and PTSD.

                 I think this is a testament to the instinctively marvellous and intelligent actor Jensen Ackles – playing this complex character in an understated manner and yet showing his inner turmoil. That’s the kind of acting I admire immensely.

                 Even when it’s not given by the script, Jensen appears to exactly know where Dean is standing at one particular moment in his life and acts accordingly to it.

                 When you look at “his” Dean, you see what a person who went through serious trauma and its aftermath can look like – it’s in his body language, in the expression of his eyes, in the colour of his voice.
                 I was fortunate once to be able to compliment Jensen on his amazing portrayal of the tormented man that Dean is. And he explained wonderfully how he works to find Dean’s reactions by imagining what he would feel like if he were in that situation. He does it superbly and authentically. This is what a suffering man looks like.

                 I don’t share your view – I don’t think the whole situation was handled the way you look at it. I understand that, to your mind, Dean didn’t receive as much support as you would have liked to be there. From my point of view there have been many moments in which he was shown support and love from those closest to him.

                 Alas, when times get rough and life swings you about, then there often isn’t enough time to deal with these inner conflicts (in Supernatural’s context: e.g. when a battle has to be fought, a friend’s life saved or a brother kept sane), in a fictional story as in real life.

                 In the blue collar world of Supernatural, I can imagine that psychological problems are dealt with exactly as they are on the show – with denial, shutting up and putting up a front – so the story-telling is very much rooted in reality (despite the paranormal riff raff).

                 To my experience, in a context where psychological issues are still regarded as “loony” issues, people tend to remain quiet about them in order to not appear weak or “crazy”. And those people usually need longer to actually seek out professional help and also a long time to accept that a depression/trauma disorder is a sickness and that it can be treated.

                 And I think Dean himself (and I am treating him like a real person, for the sake of debate, and not the fictional character that he is) has handled the whole situation in a very dignified way. So has Sam. Both own a quiet air of dignity and strength. But, well, that’s just me.

                 Cheers, Jas

             18. It would be nice if one of his loved ones admired his strength in dealing, though-as he has done for them. That would help him greatly, I think. And being that they’ve shown him to be the kind of character that gives so much and yet asks for so very little from his loved ones, I cannot for the life of me understand why these writers are not having Sam or Bobby do this for him-especially in as bad a shape as he is in right now. And there has most definitely been time and moments since he returned from hell to tell him that-and now this last business from Bobby just makes me also feel like the writers are just refusing to give Dean the respect that this oft-repeated “storyline” of his deserves, yet again. And it is and will remain frustrating beyond words for some of us if they keep doing this…

             19. I don’t agree with this at all. It’s the old one-sided relationship argument again. Sam told Dean that anyone would have broken in Hell when Dean was depressed about torturing souls in season 4. He couldn’t have been more supportive or loving in season 5 when dealing with a suicidal Dean In Point of No Return. He was showing gratitude and being encouraging with Dean in regards to their life and Lisa/Ben in Mannequin in Season 6. And now, he’s obviously worried about Dean even though he’s got huge problems to deal with. Of course, Sam also said “Boohoo” in season 4, under supernatural influence, and that means that everything else doesn’t count, it seems.

                 It’s very much a give and take between the brothers. They support each other and it’s not always Dean. They rarely congratulate each other on how they’re handling things or get talky about their issues, although Sam was sure trying hard until last episode. Dean didn’t admire Sam’s strength in dealing with his addiction for example. Not one word was said about it. Nothing was said about Sam jumping in the pit either. But Dean was there, when it mattered most. And Sam was there for Dean in Season 5 too. They pick each other up when they fall, and that’s enough for me.

             20. Dean is clearly questioning his ability to save anyone, his strength as a hunter and his beliel that he can make any kind of difference for the better in a world that seems to want to destroy itself. In his mind, he has lost every battle he’s fought since he went to hell; he also became the very thing he’s fought against his entire life there-and Bobby tell him he’s not a person?! Now I kind of get that he meant tha tDeanis not a civilian, but I wish he’d said that instead. IMO, Dean still thinks of himself as being as soulless as SoullessSam was at this point, and as he alluded to being in You Can’t Handle the Truth. He needs SOMEONE! to help him understand that he is simply NOT! that-and if it isn’t going ot be Sam or Bobby, those who are supposedly closest to him, then who?…*sigh*…maybe(hopefully) the next few episodes will tell us…

             21. I agree, JuliaG, that the brothers keep picking each other up when they fall. They often do it silently, but they are always there.

                 They don’t support each other with many words, and sometimes they are angry because the other got into a terrible situation, and eventually they are both able to put that aside and be there, no matter what.
                 I love that about these characters. Despite their tough and at times horrific lives they are able to find forgiveness for the other’s mistakes.

             22. Sometimes you don’t need to apologize for someone to know that you’ve forgiven them. Actions speak louder than words. And I think these two guys know that about each other.

             23. Very true! The forgiveness they show each other often comes in between lines, in a smile, in the expressions of their eyes. And, as you say, since they know each other so well – it doesn’t have to come with ceremonies. 🙂

          3. I’m not a Samgirl, but I am a bi-bro fan and the problem I have w/Sam being presented as the “strongest, most well-adjusted person in the world” is that it all happened in the span one ONE episode.

             We never saw Sam’s journey from hallucinating to learning coping methods to managing the hallucinations. We were deprived of a story. Plain and simple.

             I hear your sarcasm and understand you resent Sam being shown as “strong,” but trust me, that’s not what’s happening. The writers just don’t care enough about Sam to bother to write story for him. As a Deangirl, you should feel assured in that you will NEVER experience that. His emotional POV and feelings will ALWAYS be fully fleshed out and explored. You’ll never be in the dark w/r/t his actions, etc.

             As a bi-bro fan, I feel I know Dean pretty well. He gets a lot of emotional exploration. I would love to have the same w/Sam b/c I love Sam just as much as I love Dean. It’s been hard coming to the realization that the writers don’t feel the same, but it is what it is.

             Reply

             1. Personally, I don’t need to see any more emo from Dean. He survived Hell and his PTSD with no help from his so-called family, he survived his brother being thrown into the pit and then everyone lying to him for a year and letting him believe that Sam was still suffering in Hell, thereby ensuring that he could never really settle into domestic life with Lisa and Ben. He even got his brother out of Hell and survived soulless Sam so if the writers had actully bothered to think a story for him instead just recycling seasons 2 and 5, that would have worked just fine for me.

                If I never again have to see Dean stand on the sidelines and helplessly emo over something someone else is going through or doing, I would be perfectly happy. So no, I don’t need the reassurance that we will get more emotional exploration for Dean. I need the reassurance that Dean will actually be relevant to the larger story for himself and not just as his brother’s unwanted babysitter which is all he has been for 7 years now.

                But I do find it interesting that you clearly resent any and all emotional exploration (since you hated Dean in season 5 and now) but you don’t seem to have a problem with his complete lack of any other storyline. If you were truly as bibro as you claim, I would expect to see you railing on behalf of both brothers and not just Sam.

                In fact, I would never have guessed from your posts that you actually like Dean since you clearly want the show to be much more focused on Sam. His emotions, his story, his plot.

             2. Okay, this is pushing things a bit too far with the last sentence. This is definitely not respectful. Tone it down and quit making assumptions. Unless that can be quoted verbatim, you are putting words into someone’s mouth. This post breaks a couple of our rules.

             3. It’s not my fault that you are not enjoying Dean’s current story. This is the arc they chose for me. I don’t like it either, and my not liking it has NOTHING to do w/not wanting any emotional exploration for Dean. I don’t like Dean’s story b/c, IMO, it’s not being told very well. Plain and simple.

                I do feel he’s been in emotional turmoil for far too long, but that is another post for another day. I do want some emotional exploration for Sam. My wanting that for Sam has nothing to do w/Dean.

                I am not a fan of Dean’s story this year (poorly told) or Sam’s (non-existent).

                You can believe what you want about me. I know what I like. I like both Dean AND Sam. Just b/c I like them doesn’t mean I can’t criticize the characters or their stories.

             4. The writers just don’t care enough about Sam to bother to write story for him.

                The reality is that the majority of this fandom is made up of Deangals. With the ratings dropping to 1.5m for the last episode, to focus solely on Sam ongoing would kill this show even deader than it is. I know I wouldn’t bother watching those episodes.

             5. You are making an unfounded assumption, and you are not staying on topic. Unless you have scientific proof, you cannot speak for the majority of the fandom.

                Also, if you’ve read the NUMEROUS articles I’ve done on ratings, you would know your ratings comment doesn’t hold water at all. Don’t ever use that argument here. It’s a hot button issue with me and I have lots of facts to prove why that is not true.

                This is a warning. Next comment like this gets edited or unpublished.

             6. Well, if that’s how you see it, that’s how you see it. You seem bound and determined to believe that the MAJORITY of the fans only care about Dean so that’s fine. So whatevs . . . .

28. I just think they are treating Sam’s time in Hell the same way they treated Dean’s. After telling us that Dean was basically in the worst POW camp ever, we got two or three red flashes, a couple confessional conversations by the Impala and one episode, On The Head of the Pin, to tell us what Dean had been through. The we got the Dean Smith episode where his broken psych was all fixed up because someone told him to stop whining.

    We have actually seen more of Sam’s Hell time already just this season since episodes 1 & 2 delved into the Hallucinations in depth. There is the firey Sam face flashes. And of course, there is all of season 6 which dealt with the fallout from Hell through soulless Sam and the many, many people who told us how much worse Sam would have it than anyone else, ever.

    So if they decide that Sam getting all zen and occasionally pressing on his cut is about all they are going to do with this particular storyline, then I think it is on par or even slightly better than what they did for Dean’s post-Hell storyline. At least Sam is getting tons of sympathy from people and being told how strong and deep he is, rather than being told that he is weak or broken or that he should stop whining. Maybe it’s all the support he is getting that is enabling him to come across as the strongest person in the world. Not that anyone would ever acknowledge the difference in the treatment of the brothers’ by those who are supposed to be there for them.

    Having said all that, I would not be in the least bit surprised if the last several episodes of the season dealt exclusively with Sam’s trauma. Sera has said there is more to come and where Sam is concerned, she doesn’t tend to lie.

    Reply

    1. I agree with this assessment. I am finding S7 to be much more enjoyable than S6 and I am thrilled that the writers are finally recognizing the toll that burying his emotions life-long has taken on Dean. My only fear after Bobby’s speech to him in 7.09 is that they will yet again regress him to that same default setting instead of having him deal with ALL he’s been through-including and especially his own hell-so that he can find his reason to want to hunt again. I further think the writers message this season has been that while the brothers wiil/should have each others’ backs in the hunt, and they will always be there to support each other, there are still just some things that each will be handling on their own out of the necessity of their both being hunters and the job simply not allowing them to give in or lose themselves to their respective, inner turmoils. I loved hearing Sam be more concerned for Dean than himself in 7.09(when he said others had it worse than him, I took that to be Dean)and I DO think Sam is as Alice said, “taking a page from Dean’s book and worrying more about Dean than himself”-which again I applaud seeing from Sam, and in a more “pure” way than he’s ever shown it before.

       Reply

    2. When Dean came back from Hell in season 4, his Hell story was overshadowed by a much bigger one – that he had been rescued by angels who were telling him they he had started the breaking of the seals, and it rested on his shoulders to save the world. If we got a good scene in which we hear about Sam’s experience from his own words and we see Sam dealing with the pain the way Dean seemed to go through PTSD for the next couple of seasons, and Sam, like Dean, was given a much bigger personal story that overshadowed the Hell trauma, then I would be ok with that.

       Reply

       1. Since Lucifer is Sam’s hallucination, whatever he is saying is in Sam’s own words. Just as the three versions of Sam in the season 6 finale were also Sam’s words and the hallucinations of Mary and young Sam in 4.21 were Sam’s words. Soulless Sam was also a part of Sam and therefore his words. When Sam spoke to Ruby, he is using his words I believe. Same goes when he tells Dean whatever he tells him, whether it’s that he thinks Dean is weak or whiny or that he is too bossy and that they never had a good relationship or that Dean cannot possibly help him. These are all Sam’s own words, describing his feelings.

          But back to Lucifer and this season, he spent two episodes telling us how Sam was basically being raped and tortured by him. We got visuals like the hell-fire flashes and the chain dragging him up to the ceiling. We got an extensive scene of Sam coming to grips with the fact that it was a hallucination and how to tell the difference between what was real and what was in his head. We get Sam telling people that he is handling things OK almost every episode and we are seeing him be strong and healthy so for once, he may actually be telling the truth.

          The show is telling us that Sam is so super-strong that he can overcome anything including the guilt he felt for the things he did as soulless Sam. Unlike Dean who apparently just wallows for no reason, according to Jo.

          On top of that we are getting Bobby and Dean fussing over Sam on a near-constant basis, while Sam manfully continues to tell them he is fine which he probably is for now.

          Seriously, I have read limp Sam fanfiction that was not as pro-Sam as this season so I really have to wonder what it is some people want. Sam is front and center like he always is. We know that he will get the big finale devoted to him exclusively since it almost always is. And we know that whatever Dean is going through, he will ultimately be forced back into taking care of Sam when the crap hits the fan because that is the only roll that the show will allow Dean.

          This is show is Sam’s story, plain and simple. Dean, Bobby, Castiel and all the others are side characters in Sam’s journey. That did not change with the end of the mytharc. The introduction of soulless Sam and then the wall breaking ensured that so I honestly fail to understand all the hand-wringing that is going on, especially given how utterly dedicated Sera Gamble is the character and the actor that plays him.

          Reply

          1. I’m skipping over your comments about season 4 since that’s not what we were talking about. I acknowledge Sam was written better in the earlier seasons.

             Did we fully explore Sam’s soullessness and how he feels about it? We started to in Unforgiven, but that was cut short because of the wall. Samuel said that Sam had done things 10 times worse than setting up your grandsons to be fed to ghouls, but neither what Sam did to the sheriff, nor the bartender, approaches that. The season finale and the first two episodes this season started telling Sam’s story, but my frustration is that the storytelling seems to have come to a complete stop after that. Somehow Sam made the leap from considering suicide to feeling good about everything, all by pressing on his palm.

             Reply

             1. But exploring the actions of soulless Sam would have required Sam, and thus the show, actually acknowledging that he did some incredibly terrible things to his brother and Bobby and the show has never likes to do that. They love to have Sam be all dark and edgy (I guess because that is what JP enjoys playing) but then the actions are always glossed over, ignored or ultimately blamed on some outside supernatural force or Dean. Season 6 was no different from any other season in that regard, in my opinion.

                So yes, in that sense I actually agree with you but I don’t think it’s because the writers are uninterested in Sam, I think it’s because they see him as the show’s only true hero and therefore he gets the benefit of the whitewashing and the pimping that no other character on the show is usually given.

                Now does this hurt Sam’s ability to be likable or relatable? It does for someone like me who actually likes some of the other characters on the show as well. But clearly not for most of his fans if the posts on this site are anything to go by because you guys also insist that Sam can do no wrong or whatever he did wrong was because Dean is a bad brother. And this season, apparently Dean is a bad brother again because he is depressed and therefore not paying enough attention to Sam, even though no one has been fussing over Sam more than Dean.

                This show is written by Sam fans for Sam fans. Sure that makes Dean and Cas fans unhappy, but I cannot for the life of me, understand why Sam fans feel so hard done by. Your guy is better than everyone anywhere. We know this because the show keeps telling us so.

             2. Funny, I always figured the reason the show never went into the graphic details of Dean torturing souls in Hell – some of whom were probably pretty sympathetic – was because that would do too much damage to Dean’s character.

             3. The one thing I love most about the character, is that when he does something wrong, he owns up to it. There is usually no supernatural force at play to explain away his mistakes. It makes him believable and relatable.

             4. You forget “The mentalist”, where Dean blamed his brother for lying and never apologized.

             5. Dean did apologize. He did so at the end of 7.6. The Mentalists handled the situation oddly, but Dean did apologize to Sam, to the same degree Sam apologizes for his actions towards Dean. So that should be enough, right?

             6. You mean that half-hearted apology to Sam’s back? They hadn’t even discussed the issue yet. No, it’s not enough. Dean felt justified in killing Amy and lying to Sam about it because he thought that Sam couldn’t handle it. He said he didn’t like to lie, but he never apologized for it, or say that he was wrong in any of his actions regarding Amy. Sam said he was wrong and took responsibility in season 5.

             7. I am not surprised that Dean didn’t apologize for his actions regarding Amy, because he didn’t think killing her was wrong. As she was killing people she judged to be unworthy of living, I can’t criticize Dean for doing the same. The only thing Dean did feel sorry for was lying to Sam, which he did explain. When it comes to apologies, Dean’s apology wasn’t good enough in your opinion, so it doesn’t count. Fair enough. I have opinions on Sam’s apologies and how much he really took responsibility in S5, and it’s doubtful we’ll agree, so it’s probably best to agree to disagree and leave it there.

             8. Dean’s apology wasn’t good enough because it wasn’t there. “I don’t like lying to you” is not an apology.

                Sam’s apologies might have been too generic for you in season 5, but he apologized for than once, and it was obvious that he agreed his actions were wrong.

                Dean doesn’t thing he was wrong to kill Amy behind Sam’s back and lie about it for weeks. He felt justified in doing it all because he followed his gut and Sam was nuts and couldn’t be trusted. And he yelled at Sam for being mad too long on top of it all.

                I really don’t think we can compare the 2 situations at all.

                And I know I’m going a bit off topic here, but, I’m surprised that so many think that killing Amy was right. Was Gordon right to want to kill Lenore the vampire way back? It’s the same thing. Lenore had killed humans before turning to animals, since she had been “turned” completely. So why was it right to let Lenore go, but not Amy, who had saved Sam’s life?

             9. I know I said I’d leave it alone, but . . .

                Again, if Dean’s apology in 7.6 wasn’t good enough for you, it wasn’t. I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise. I feel Dean’s apology was as generic as Sam’s in S5, and implied apologies were also given by both boys, in 7.7 for Dean and in S5 for Sam. So I do feel they’re pretty equal there. We can, of course, agree to disagree.

                I think there’s also similarity between the boys in the fact that they have both apologized for hurting the other, but have thought that they were still right. Dean still feels that he was right to kill someone who was killing others, just as Sam felt he was right in leaving Dean behind and cutting off contact, despite the fact that he knew how that would affect Dean. Yes, each boy should take each other into account, but they should both be allowed to follow their guts, conscience, etc. I think S5 is quite applicable in comparison also, but if you don’t agree, we can agree to disagree there as well.

                As for comparing Lenore and Amy, I do feel there’s quite a big difference. Lenore hadn’t killed anyone in 100 years. She was firmly committed to not taking human life. Amy had killed people much more recently, and she didn’t have a moral issue with killing humans as long as she could justify it to herself (her son was sick, and the people were, in her opinion, bad and deserved to die). That, to me, indicates that she would be more than willing to kill again, given the right set of circumstances, whereas Lenore refused human blood even after torture and begged to be killed when the MoA drove her to breaking her fast. So to me, there is a mile of difference between the characters. Saving Sam 15+ years before did not and should not earn Amy a free pass to murder whenever she felt she was justified in doing so.

             10. He apologized the episode before the Mentalist. 🙂

29. There was nothing wrong with dealing with Deans emotions has it is a normal thing for the show since John died. However while I appreciate the toll Deans life has taken on him . What would be nice is to see the toll Sams life has taken on him.

    If Dean had the wall and it had been brought down would the fans who think what they are doing with Sam be has happy if it was Dean? The boys can be there for each other but we cant simply pretend that what happened to Sam didnt happen . Sam has been there for Dean ever since John died , his loss was never even touched upon but he pulled Dean through that loss and hurt and depression Dean got himself in after he lost John.

    For Sam to say others have it worse than him? Nearly 2 centuries of torture and memories so bad he had to have a wall in his head.His mum making a deal beore he was born..Giiven demon blood at 6 mths and being manipulated by demons all his life.Seeing his girlfriend burning on the ceiling. the list goes on. and others have it worse? while a sweet statment it was down playing of what Sam has been through . See unless Sam can have and be allowed to have the right like Dean not to be ok after a terrible trauma then what is he?

    Deans depression and issues have had plenty of focus and they are getting focus again so Sams go by the way side to fit Deans issues that have been there almost from the begining of the show.

    This should not of become just about what a toll everything has been on Dean because we have known this since season 2 and through the constant focus on his problems. This should of for once been about what a toll everything has been for Sam then you could of brought Deans depressionl in to the sl. By doing it this way it looks once again has if Sam doesnt matter while Dean gets the emotional focus again .

    I have no doubt some of the Dean fandom are happy with the sl at the moment because of the outcry thinking Dean wasnt going to have a sl but that still doesnt mean that Sam deserved a sl that does nothing for the trauma he went through

    Reply

    1. The only story they will allow Dean to have is to focus on his reactions to the main story which is all about Sam and whatever tragedy has befallen him from season to season. I find it sad that even that much attention to characters is so deeply begrudged.

       Even in season 2, Dean’s spiral had more to do with the save or kill Sam secret than grief over John’s death. In season 4, the vast majority of Dean’s time was spent worrying about Sam going dark side with Ruby and his ultimate task was to stop Sam, rather than deal with his own Hell trauma. The entire point of season 5 wasn’t about Dean deciding for himself whether or not he should say yes to Michael, it was framed as whether or no he could trust Sam enough to not say yes to Lucifer. Of course, then Sam decided he wanted to say yes anyway and Dean, then full of trust and awe at Sammy’s strength, got to stand aside and cheerlead that decision.

       Sam is and always has been this show’s protagonist. Dean, while not technically a sidekick, is essentially the observer to Sam’s magnificence. This season more than any other is reinforcing that message for me.

       Reply

       1. That still puts Dean as the human being with a task to complete and Sam as the inanimate task. I say you’re better off. I’m left rooting for the magic chair that sits in the background being silently dangerous.

          Reply

          1. Who got the task of saving the world all by himself while his brother sat on the sidelines and watched? I’ll give you a clue – his initials are SW and Kripke refers to him as THE hero of the story and is the only character that Sera Gamble deigns to discuss for any length of time. People may not like what they have done with Sam. They may not feel like it is enough (and I sincerely doubt that anything would be for some of JP’s fans here) but trying to deny that he is the lead character and the one who drives the story, is utterly disingenuous in my opinion.

             Reply

30. Dean STILL doesn’t have a myth-arc storyline which is what the Dean fandom has truly wanted since S2-and I daresay that what Sam fans are feeling now is somewhat akin to how Dean fans felt about the Michael storyline for Dean and their disappointment with how that ended. But it’s only akin in that the disappointment can’t really be realized yet because the season and Sam’s storyline isn’t over with yet-and given both showrunners’ history of the writing of the Sam character, I think any Samfans worries/concerns with Sam being unimportant/overlooked as regards the big picture AKA importance to the myth-arc are unfounded. And while i know I’m in the minority on this here, I am one of those who feel that both brothers have gotten plenty of emotional storylines over the course of the series and *I’ve* been able to see each of their motivations for everything they’ve done pretty clearly.

    Reply

31. The problem with Sams storytelling is always there Dean not being Michael was never a certain thing . It didnt harm Dean or affected how we saw him besides he had a role in the mytharc in season 4 and still got everything else while Sam was in the background.
    I get the whole desire for the mytharc but if Dean had that he would get everything else too which would futhur reduce Sam. I grant the season has not finished but people have expressed why they have concerns and why making Sam look so alright it would now look out of place him not being alright. These are valid concerns.

    If some feel differently thats fair enough but I cant change how I feel . Sam hasn had anywhere near the focus on a personal level Dean has had and it seems set to continue .

    Reply

    1. I’d add that Dean had the mythic arc story in season 3 too. Everything was about how to get Dean out of his hell contract, and it turned out that contract was held by Lilith. I think both Sam and Dean’s stories in seasons 4 and 5 were evenly tied plan to the mythic arc. And the mythic arc in season 6 was about the Purgatory plan. Cas was the only main character whose personal story directly tied to that.

       Reply

       1. And both those purported Dean myth-arc storylines were ret-conned away to really only and still being all about Sam and “letting go of Sam” in the end, and in the last 3 episodes of S5.
          I think the writers are going with Sam having earned his redemption by what he went throuhg in hell. IMO, Dean has had no such storyline yet. At this point(and hopefully after Dean finds his true calling as a hunter and the true reasoning as to the why of that calling), I would be more than happy for the writers to switch things up and give Sam that big emo storyline that it seems is so desirable(from what I’ve read) to his fandom, IF! they would also(and this is important) Follow. Through. Completely on a storyline for Dean that would make him the singular center of the myth-arc with Sam more in the support role this time so that Dean could earn some redemption of his own through a sacrifice involving his own bodily self, for the part he’s played in the way events concerning all of humanity and the world have played out-as Sam was gifted with at the end of S5. Since it seems that the writers of this show have chosen to write in this either/or fashion concerning the myth-arc and emo SLs for the characters series-long, from what I’ve read at many Deanfan sites, this has been recognized, and most Deanfans would applaud the switch; and likewise, from what I’ve read, the Sam fandom wants more insight into Sam actually shown on the screen. It IS questionable to me whether the Sam fandom would be okay with his becoming strictly the support player for Dean as regards the myth-arc, though…
          In any case, I doubt the showrunner/writers would go there, at this point. IMO, it’s more likely we will get full-on Sam emo in the second half and if the writers have learned anything at all, at least a shared, but more equally pro-active role in the myth-arc this time around for EACH of the lead characters/actors. We’ll all just to have wait and see.

          Reply

    2. Sam was not in the background in season 4. The entire point of the season was his spiral into darkness that lead to him releasing Lucifer. Dean worrying about him was Dean’s primary story that season. The fact that there were a few mentions that there might be something more for Dean, do not take away the fact that what Sam was doing was the driving force of the season.

       Dean’s roll in the so-called mytharc as Michael’s vessel wasn’t even introduced until season 5 and it only lasted for three-quarters of the season and then it was back to Sam being the only one who could save the world while Dean stepped back so as not to cast a shadow on Sam’s glory.

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32. I think we are forced to watch super emo scenes with Dean since season 4 or even 3. And in the same time they started to hide Sam more and more. Because of Jared I could feel nonetheless with the character and was (and I am still) attached to Sam. I am waiting for emotional scenes since him freeing Lucifer and I think that season 5 was almost invisible redemption arc for Sam. I still could follow his character. In season 6 I was very excited to see how Sam came back. Instead I got a Sam where I started to question who is this guy? When we found out I could understand. I think the show failed then already to connect the audience with Sam (the person) Its like Sam was not there even when we saw him onscreen. Some epsiodes were really awesome and Jared knocked it out from the park -again (because WTLB is one of my favorites -acting and emotional wise). But I think its a forced kind of storytelling to put Dean Winchester into the centre of the focus, the emotional focus and in the same time taking it away from Sam. When I like a character I want to know how he feels and reacts to events, to other people. But the show does nothin, nothing and this is really despairing and depressing. And every season I start to hope that they finally integrate Sam in the emotional focus but then that happens what always happened before. After Sam’s soul returned Sam was almost wallpaper again, he lived under a socket and indeed he had the “great wall of Sam”. Dean was allowed to connect with all the other people they meet and they are connected, even Bobbys return to trust Sam was underwhelming for me. So why do they this to Sam?
    After Sam’s wall came down I was again excited to see an emotional fallout. The first two episodes were great and I looked forward to episode 3. In episode 3 we saw Sam with Amy, but we didn’t find out anything about Sam only that he couldn’t kill her. The flasback scenes were touching, great, but the now scenes were hollow regarding Sam. But I liked Jareds acting. And in the end it was a setup for Dean’s “guilt and soul journey”. Since episode 2 ended Sam is almost again hollowed out, absolut no emotions. And even in the episode “The Mentalists” where I thought they could give us some hints about Sam’s former psychic abilities there was nothing.

    Normally I am a fan who wants to see the brothers together. I like both I am very attached to Sam and its like starving to look at Sam and getting NOTHING.

    Its very disappointing and frustrating and I miss and mourn Sam. What else can I say to make you all understand? I think the show lost its heart for me. I even wish now, that Sam and Dean part their ways and the bothers get equal time so I get actually insight in Sam, see him connecting to people, maybe he can work with a hunter, a native indian, or someone like Caine with some meditation, and I find out about him finally what I am waiting for since a long long time. And thats also sad to say that I came to this conclusion.
    And this is someone who likes the brothers relationship normally, but now its just reached the top for me!!!!

    Reply

33. I think Sam’s just getting the typical treatment this show allows for people who have been to Hell. It’s not any less substantial than what they did with Dean… they just aren’t ever gonna be a show that spends a lot of time depicting realistic trauma. Especially when they’ve written themselves into such a corner (by saying that he was in Hell for over a hundred years and his soul was irrevocably shredded) that nothing but completely losing his mind or dying on the spot could be considered realistic.

    I mean, I think they’ll do some more with it, but I don’t think they’re gonna do substantially more than they did the first time this story was done.

    Reply

    1. I’d say it’s less substantial considering that Dean never recovered. His hell trauma got overshadowed by more immediate angst, but it never went away. Under all the crap piled on by S4-6, it’s still there, just as insurmountable as it was the day it was introduced. Even if this weren’t obvious, the show itself has acknowledged this by having soulless Sam point it out.

       Sam’s hell trauma hasn’t been ignored, it’s been healed, totally and completely and with benefits to boot.

       Reply

       1. [quote]I’d say it’s less substantial considering that Dean never recovered. His hell trauma got overshadowed by more immediate angst, but it never went away. Under all the crap piled on by S4-6, it’s still there, just as insurmountable as it was the day it was introduced. Even if this weren’t obvious, the show itself has acknowledged this by having soulless Sam point it out.

          Sam’s hell trauma hasn’t been ignored, it’s been healed, totally and completely and with benefits to boot.[/quote]

          Exactly. Sams wall falling was gone before it even started I am not sure why I was surprised by this. I should of learnt by now that Sams issues and pain have very little value on the show .
          He is Superman in disguise who eats Granola and runs.

          Reply

       2. But he was roundly mocked for showing any trauma whatsoever, and so he simply stopped. Sure, we see him taking a swig out of a flask every now and again. Is that what people are missing in Sam’s story? The occasional drink of alcohol, hardly mentioned or followed up on?

          Reply

34. [quote]

    He is Superman in disguise who eats Granola and runs.[/quote]Yeah he is….like not human anymore!
    Its almost like roboSam returned, but more zen-soul-calm then ever before. When Sam is managing and trying to overcome this all I want to see it onscreen and HOW he is affected. I want to follow Sam when he is running, when he meets people and is not sure of the situation and then he starts to press the scar to be sure what’s real or not. I want to see him hesitating when he chooses a food and we could see him struggling because of the smell of burned flesh. He could hesitate when they are passing a butcher and he is seeing the hooks. He could show he is unsure is this the real Dean or a hallucination.

    Sam is a victim of Lucifer and Lucifer surely made it clear that there was a sick love-hate obsession with Sam and I am sure that Lucifer “played” with the inherent compassionate and empathetic side of Sam Winchester. If Lucifer burned away this side in Sam so the show has failed to give us insight and understanding. Its like “hey you shouldn’t like Sam and you shouldn’t care for Sam, he is just the burden in Dean’s life and made his life horrible” and about Dean “watch Dean 24/7 for all what HE went through because of the little brat of a brother”

    I am even asking why is Dean still with Sam right now? What has Sam what gives Dean something he needs? Or is Dean feeling he can’t let his burden of a brother alone because of “the other shoe will drop” scenario that is right now without confirmation, because Sam is onscreen plain and simple perfect. Maybe Sam is not Sam anymore because Lucifer has melted with Sam’s soul somehow and right now we have human Lucifer walking the earth.

    See I have no idea anymore WHO Sam Winchester is. I used to know Sam even in the times where he was already hidden in his own personal story and of course the first 3 seasons gave me “the core” of Sam. But it is past long time that the show gave me follow up on Sam’s inner, his emotions in almost every episode- with some exceptions, but that’s to little.

    Maybe we should not care about Sam anymore but its Jareds “adorable fault” that I still do. I don’t want to be forced with the tight Dean’s POV the whole time and its maybe that the show says look Dean is not seeing Sam, so you viewers won’t see Sam. And Dean has a specific view of Sam so the show gives us reasons for Sam’s actions that fits with the POV characters vision.

    It makes the character of Sam more and more hollow and the possible interpretions of his actions outrageous spacious!!

    I even have the thought that Sam is not real that its all in Deans head. Maybe since the accident in season 1 all of the Winchesters died only Dean survived but is in a kind of coma and is imagining Sammy!!!! That would explain the lack of insight in my (still!!!!) beloved character!!!!

    And my last request is what did Sam do in the desert for 3 days? Did he meditate, did he fast, did he pray, did he run, did he read, did he meet people???Was he upset, calm, happy, sad, scared???

    That are things I would like to know so badly (still), but the show implies to me “give up your hope of ever getting insight or finding something out about our mystery Sam”

    (sorry for some (weird) words english is not my native language)

    Reply

35. sorry I mean “interpretation” instead of “interpretion” and sorry for some typos. I can’t check what I write here on this side before I send it so typos are “safe” because I can’t edit my comment afterwards. Its my system, my toolbar that doesn’t work so well with my laptop together!

    Reply

36. [quote]We don’t need a piece like that, Maria. [/quote]

    In [i]your [/i]opinion.

    Reply

    1. [quote][quote]We don’t need a piece like that, Maria. [/quote]

       In [i]your [/i]opinion.[/quote]

       Well, write it, then. [i]This[/i] article is about Sam and whether he’s really okay.

       I agree with so much that Tim the Enchanter and Sharon have said above. There was SO much buildup of how very horrible it was going to be when the wall fell, the physical consequences, the mental consequences – EVERYONE agreed that Sam probably would not survive it. But now it’s almost mid-season and Sam is so “okay” that it’s almost creepy.

       I write a lot and read a lot about writing, and from a character writing standpoint, Sam has ceased to be a character in the story. There’s just nothing to latch onto in order to relate to him. He’s apparently physically superhuman (going from severe, bleeding-from-the-ears-and-seizing head injury to just fine in no time.) He’s so emotionally tightly controlled that he can just turn his emotions off at will. He’s supposedly seeing Lucifer 24/7, yet [i]we[/i] don’t see any evidence of it, and he never seems horrified or afraid, or even momentarily disoriented. I watched that restaurant scene again, and I didn’t see anything except that Sam was pissed that Dean found him and plopped down at his table like they had not just had a big fight.

       The few scenes where Sam is allowed to talk to another character lately end up being about how he’s fine and how Dean is not. “Other people have it worse.” Really, Sam??? Could you name a few?

       I watched “Houses of the Holy” yesterday, and I was amazed at Sam’s speech at the end. He was an actual person then, explaining with tears in his eyes how he felt about their work and their lives and his fears about what might happen to him. And Dean sat there and listened with such love and concern on his face. It almost made me cry, because the writers have completely abandoned that Sam.

       It really takes very little, very subtle things to make a character sympathetic and relatable, but the writers just don’t seem interested when it comes to Sam. He’s the problem, the plot device, the burden Dean has to bear. I, too, give kudos to Jared Padalecki for doing what he can to make us care about the character at all, because it’s certainly not there in the writing.

       And when the other shoes drop, as they have told us outright through Dean’s words that it will, it’s almost guaranteed that Sam will be in the wrong again. It won’t be something that happens to him, it will be something he does, and the focus will be on how Dean deals with it.

       I will always love Sam and identify with him, because that’s how I rolled in the early seasons. But I can’t imagine a new viewer caring any more about him than about any secondary character. Sam is no more a hero in the story now than Crowley is, and he’s less interesting.

       Reply

       1. They wrote themselves into a corner with this storyline, IMO, and this is how they’re wrting themselves out of it. If they were to show anything even approaching genuine fall-out from the worst hell ever in the history of all the people who ever been to hell and come back, Sam wouldn’t be able to hunt. Personally, I don’t think they should have sent Sam to hell, but since they did, Sam coming back a better person and redeemed by hell-as opposed to Dean, who came back wrecked and more guilt-ridden than ever, at least makes their experiences different on some level. I know that many at this site just want to see WreckedSam, too, but if we never get him, I’ll be fine with that because I’ve seen more than enough of Sam’s hell experience and I’m ready to move on from it being the big storyline of the season. I’m more than ready for them to just get back to the hunt and move away from back from hell storylines that it’s simply impossible to do justice to.

          Reply

    2. It has nothing to do with my opinion. You were wondering if Alice could write the same type of article about Dean. Is Dean really OK? The answer is no. It’s plain to see and everybody agrees. Why pose a question everyone knows the answer to? It’s not so cut and dry with Sam because the focus is on Dean right now.

       Reply

       1. The answer to the question “Is Sam okay?” is just as plain: no, he’s not. And I believe everyone of us viewers knows that, just as we know that Dean is not okay.

          Reply

          1. Thank you! This!!

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          2. Jasminka, look at the poll results. As I said, the answer is not clear cut. Sam is acting fine, with nothing to indicate that he’s not. Even Alice is not sure if he’s ok, which is why she’s asking what we think. There is no question whatsoever that Dean is not ok. You put the question to a poll, and everybody would have the same answer.

             Honestly, I think that many are sure that Sam is not ok only because he couldn’t be after all that happened. But, watching the show right now, Sam looks ok, with no subtext to indicate otherwise. That might change next year, he will probably suffer some traumatic event that will set him back, and will probably be supernaturally fixed or Dean will help him. And then all will be forgotten again after the 1 episode devoted to it.

             Reply

             1. No argument there. From my point of view, it’s clear that Sam is not okay. He is quiet about all what’s going on inside, and I could imagine that he himself doesn’t know what exactly he feels. He might have been able to detach himself so much from his inner pain that he actually [i]believes [/i] to be okay.

                But, after all that he’s been though – if psychological continuity matters to the writers – he can’t be okay. The human psyche doesn’t work that way. Sam might be a master of suppression or repression, but it’s all down there… waiting for the right (or very worst) moment to emerge… I’m afraid of that, because it will mean more suffering. For both brothers and the ones close to them (and, of course, for us as fans, too)…

             2. I hope you’re right. Maybe it’s as you say, and Sam only thinks he’s ok and that’s why there aren’t any hints to the contrary. If it’s the case though, the writers sure have sucked all the dramatic potential for Sam’s story. All the momentum is gone, and when (if) Sam falls apart, it will be too little, too late, for me anyway. I mean, don’t we need some sort of build-up to Sam crashing? Isn’t it basic writing 101?

             3. I agree that the potential for more drama in Sam’s story probably wasn’t exhausted, but for me there is a lot of inherent drama in Sam’s trying to convince everyone (in all likelihood himself, too) that he is okay.

                I always look at the show with a professional eye, too. And I’ve seen patients crash without any outer warning to it. In reality it happens occasionally, which might be one of the reasons I don’t miss it – I simply think there is a big storm going on in Sam’s soul, not visible on the outside.

                I think though, some fans without that kind of background, would need a build-up like the one you’re referring to.

                I’m just curious where all this will lead to. Very. I have only minor complaints about the season. For me, there has been plenty of drama, for all characters.

             4. [quote]I hope you’re right. Maybe it’s as you say, and Sam only thinks he’s ok and that’s why there aren’t any hints to the contrary. If it’s the case though, the writers sure have sucked all the dramatic potential for Sam’s story. All the momentum is gone, and when (if) Sam falls apart, it will be too little, too late, for me anyway. I mean, don’t we need some sort of build-up to Sam crashing? Isn’t it basic writing 101?[/quote]

                Yup, JuliaG! It is basic Writing 101. That’s why I don’t think they can effectively tell Sam’s story at this point. As you said, there’s been no set up to his breakdown. They can go back to it all they want in the 2nd half, but I have a feeling it will feel forced and contrived.

                Sam shows NO signs of falling apart. That is NOT good storytelling, IMO. If he’s being set up for a breakdown, we should know it by now. I highly doubt a new viewer to the show would even know Sam has as many problems as he does.

37. They have shown Dean torturing over and over again and every time he does, there are a chorus of people, usually sam fans, excoriating him for not caring about the meat suits. The same people who generally give Sam a pass about all the people he killed while trying to get at the demons.

    They have also shown Dean punching Sam with absolutely no excuses other than his anger, unlike Sam who gets the supernatural excuse and then handwaves the actions himself or never mentions them again.

    People on this very site have accused Dean of being a rapist for having Sam’s soul put back while ripping Bobby to shreds for actually reacting to the fact that soulless Sam tried to kill him. Not that we ever saw Sam actually address what he did to Dean and Bobby during that time. Since they devoted so much time to Sam feeling bad over perfect strangers, but chose not to write even one scene that would allow Sam to actually confront the fact that soulless sam let Dean get vamped out and almost killed Bobby, I have to presume this is a deliberate choice. And the only reason the writers would do this is because once again, they want to sweep Sam’s actions under the rug, even as they cast doubt on the ethics of Dean trying to restore his brother’s soul. The contrast in how the two brothers are written is quite noticeable but I think the reasons for those differences lie in which character is perceived as the lead and therefore gets protected by the writing and which character is secondary and therefore expendable in terms of audience reaction.

    I have seen this kind of writing for lead characters over and over again. They did it on Buffy, Dark Angel, Merlin and any number other genre shows.

    Reply

    1. [quote]They have shown Dean torturing over and over again and every time he does, there are a chorus of people, usually sam fans, excoriating him for not caring about the meat suits. The same people who generally give Sam a pass about all the people he killed while trying to get at the demons.
       [/quote]
       Yes, they have shown Dean (and Sam, and Bobby) torturing and killing possessed humans. Strange though, that, Meg aside, the one time they emphasised the human side of possession, it was in relation to the nurse that Sam killed. For almost the entire time she was on screen, it was the human that we saw, a terrified woman who screamed and begged for her life before Sam took it. Compare this to the demons Dean tortured and killed in 6.21, at all times they remained snarky demons, no reminder to the audience of the humans inside who were surely as terrified as the nurse was.

       [quote]They have also shown Dean punching Sam with absolutely no excuses other than his anger, unlike Sam who gets the supernatural excuse and then handwaves the actions himself or never mentions them again.[/quote]
       When, on the show, did Dean punching Sam get mentioned again? Dean punches when he is worried/angry. In the same situation, Sam leaves, and this has gotten as much, if not more, emphasis as Dean punching.

       [quote]People on this very site have accused Dean of being a rapist for having Sam’s soul put back while ripping Bobby to shreds for actually reacting to the fact that soulless Sam tried to kill him.[/quote]
       And people on this site and others accused Sam of being a rapist for allowing Dean to be turned, a suggestion that was given extra weight by the transfer of bodily fluids.

       [quote]Not that we ever saw Sam actually address what he did to Dean and Bobby during that time. [/quote]
       See episode 6.12, about 35 minutes in.

       [quote]And the only reason the writers would do this is because once again, they want to sweep Sam’s actions under the rug, even as they cast doubt on the ethics of Dean trying to restore his brother’s soul. [/quote]
       [i]Viewers[/i] cast doubt on the ethics of Dean trying to restore his brother’s soul, not the show. The same as the viewers cast doubt on Soulless Sams actions, not the show.

       With all due respect lj, the show does not control what people on this site or other sites think, they only have a say in what goes on screen, the response to what is shown is the responsibility of the viewer. [i]You[/i] decide who to give a pass to, who to judge and who to sympathise with etc.

       Sorry, but the show does not tell me what to think or what to feel. I’m more than capable of doing that by myself.

       Reply

38. Bobby knew Sam was back for nearly a year and did nothing because he wanted Dean to be happy a fact glossed over by the writers. It isnt just what Sam does to others it isnt a one way street. Dean , Bobby, Castiel, Becky they have all treated Sam less than stellar at various points.

    Sam is not protected in any way IMO as season 4 and 5 are testament to that . Look there are simple ways to inform a audience on what is going on with a character esp a lead

    Either the writers view Sam has a lead character and has a human being with feelings and a pov as a brother, son and individual or they dont it appears to me they dont. .
    If that sounds harsh then I am sorry but they have treated Sam harshly for me and this situation with Sam (asking again what is going on with him is he ok ?) should not of been happening in a season where there is no mystery or mytharc around him .

    Reply

39. No, they don’t have written themself into a corner, I don’t believe it. There is always a way to show in little subtle scenes that Sam has some problems and that he is not okay to give me something so I can relate to the character.
    I feel its just a change of story line serving to showcase Dean’s emotions and overwhelming guilt, burdens, feelings. It would take away from Dean’s emotional journey when we would see Sam having problems. People would think when Sam is not okay, Dean would take care and put himself to the side. Isn’t this what some want? That Dean has a storyline for his own and its not related to Sam? Well, but Dean said that the other shoe would drop, and we will probably not see why and what is happened what is the reason and maybe its again something similar to the demon blood drinking and we find out in episode 16 17 or 18???

    Sam should not be okay by any means. I would have loved to see Sam staying the first episodes at Bobbys while Dean is hunting with another hunter or with Bobby and someone would be there for Sam. I wouldn’t have mind to see them seperated because in the end they can’t stay from each other for long and they shouldn’t. But what they have done is shoving feelings, emotions to the side from Sam, and want to see emotions, feelings and not a superhuman, supernatural shell of the very human essence of Sam. I agree to others who say that if not for Jared we would have lost our love for Sam. Jared is the only reason I am still attached. He has no supporting, emotional scenes from the writers, even in the “Sam Centric” episode (3) it was about Dean. We saw Dean with his leg in the hospital, we saw how he was out and came back and had pain and worry, and we got nothing from Sam. There was something in the end of episode 2 and in episode 3 it was “ditched” and Sam’s first scene was we see him reading a book. I have to admit I loved that scene nonetheless and I even stopped my DVD to look intensly what was there on the table, in the room, and what kind of book Sam read, but I couldn’t find out. Is this such a big mystery that I want to have clues about Sam and what he is thinking and feeling….and readin, and that I want to see Sam coming back from the unconsciousness and that someone is caring for him …and to see him recovering instead of Dean …or both of them? That are hints that the writers doesn’t think twice about how Sam is sensed from the viewers , they simply doesn#t care or more harsh they make it from purpose because we should feel with Dean and not with Sam!!!! There are thousands of little scenes where it is implied the same what I just wrote and that is really frustrating.

    I love Sam still!!! Its not dead my feelings for this character but its hard, very hard. For me it is not only a tv-show that I enjoy, I am really captured and think about how can I make steps away because how the writers hurt Sam’s character and giving him absolutly no scenes to feel for him. What another poster said when someone comes into the series in season 7, they don’t care for the character of Sam. How can you when there is nothing to feel for him??

    Oh Sam!!*big sigh*

    Reply

    1. [quote]
       Yes, they have shown Dean (and Sam, and Bobby) torturing and killing possessed humans. Strange though, that, Meg aside, the one time they emphasised the human side of possession, it was in relation to the nurse that Sam killed. For almost the entire time she was on screen, it was the human that we saw, a terrified woman who screamed and begged for her life before Sam took it. [/quote]
       And yet, the show never mentions again what Sam did to that woman. We never see him show remorse. Which suggests to me that the audience is supposed to have forgotten about that incident or handwaved it as something Sam did while on demon blood and therefore not truly responsible. Whitewash.

       [quote]When, on the show, did Dean punching Sam get mentioned again? Dean punches when he is worried/angry. In the same situation, Sam leaves, and this has gotten as much, if not more, emphasis as Dean punching. [/quote]
       Dean himself mentions again, usually in the form of an apology. The only time there was not apology forthcoming was when it was soulless Sam. I do agree that there could be a parallel with Sam running off, but since it is visually so much less shocking and defamatory to a character the actual violence, I don’t believe the writers themselves are drawing that parallel. I would have believed they were after Dark Side of the Moon, but since new and improved season 7 Sam ran off with apparent complete justification and with Dean’s cowed blessing, then I do not think the writers thought he did anything wrong.

       [quote]And people on this site and others accused Sam of being a rapist for allowing Dean to be turned, a suggestion that was given extra weight by the transfer of bodily fluids. [/quote]
       Could you provide a link? I would be interested in reading that analysis and I don’t recall seeing it.

       [quote]See episode 6.12, about 35 minutes in. [/quote]
       That was yet another one of Sam’s infamous generic apologies. To this day, I don’t know if Sam even knows that he let Dean get turned by a vampire. It certainly didn’t seem to resonate when he was trying to get Dean to go back to Lisa in the Mannequin episode or when Sam was berating Dean for wiping Lisa and Ben’s memories. If there was ever a time for that to be brought up, it would be in relation to Dean leaving Lisa and Ben. Yet nothing. Nada, Zilch. So Sam either does not feel any remorse of the actions of soulless Sam on Dean (unlike the oodles of guilt he had over perfect strangers) and the bomb he dropped on Dean’s family life or once again the writers want the audience to forget it happened in order to protect the character. Again, whitewash in my opinion.

       [quote][i]Viewers[/i] cast doubt on the ethics of Dean trying to restore his brother’s soul, not the show. The same as the viewers cast doubt on Soulless Sams actions, not the show. [/quote]
       Really? Then why did everyone and their brother go on and on about how putting Sam’s soul back would destroy both Sam and soulless Sam? What was the point of even raising the issue if not to cast doubt on whether or not Dean was making the right choice. And let’s not forget that soulless Sam’s point of view on not wanting to be resouled was give plenty of airtime too. What was the point of any of that, if not to treat this as a morally gray issue which casts doubt on Dean’s actions?

       [quote]With all due respect lj, the show does not control what people on this site or other sites think, they only have a say in what goes on screen, the response to what is shown is the responsibility of the viewer. [i]You[/i] decide who to give a pass to, who to judge and who to sympathise with etc. [/quote]
       On this point, ITA. I feel like the show has been trying to make me love Sam best since day 1 with the Greek chorus of characters telling me how smart and special and blameless Sam really is despite some truly awful behavior, compared to his needy, pathetic, stupid, alcoholic guilt-wallowing brother. And that doesn’t even touch on the double standards within the writing which holds Dean responsible for his many mistakes with any excuses except his own flaws while Sam is always, always given the supernatural get out of jail free card.

       [quote]Sorry, but the show does not tell me what to think or what to feel. I’m more than capable of doing that by myself.[/quote]
       Me either but it is interesting how diametrically opposed our views are of the show and the characters.

       Reply

       1. [quote]and the bomb he dropped on Dean’s family life[/quote]

          I don’t understand this. How did Sam drop a bomb on Dean’s family life? He personally wronged Dean, agreed. He owed Dean a great deal of guilt, agreed. (Though we’ll have to continue to disagree on whether or not this was shown sufficiently.) But how exactly did he ruin Dean’s family life? Why is Dean running off and putting Lisa and Ben in danger on Sam’s head? Vampire!Dean didn’t seem mentally influenced or de-souled or anything of the sort. He was in a different emotional state because of his condition, but he was in full possession of his faculties. So why is his boneheaded move on Sam’s head?

          Reply

          1. If soulless Sam had never set Dean up to be turned in the first place Lisa and Ben would not have been in danger. Or even if he had told Dean that there was a cure, which he clearly knew about, Dean may not have gone running to Lisa to say a last goodbye.

             It’s like saying the guy who forced booze on the drunk driver and then handed him the car keys, had no responsibility in the drunk driving accident that followed. Was the driver responsible — of course, but he wasn’t alone in setting the sequence of events in motion.

             Not that the show would ever bother to put that much thinking into their scripts. All they care about is cool, shocking twist of having Sam look evil and then they just ignore the full consequences so that Sam is never made to take responsibility for his actions.

             I mean why bother with an episode like Unforgiven if they were not going to bother addressing what was done to Dean and Bobby? As a viewer, I don’t give a damn about a bunch of one-off characters that soulless Sam did bad things to a year earlier. Nor do I care how many Ruby look-alikes he banged while without his soul. I care that soulless Sam did some massive damage to characters and relationships that I have grown to love over 6 years and the show keeps telling me are important, yet none of that is directly addressed by the show’s protagonist when he is wallowing in the guilt that he has a built-in free pass for anyway.

             So tell me again, why I am supposed to believe that those characters or relationships actually are important on the show?

             So I guess the upshot of all of this is that for me, it’s not that Sam’s feelings and POV do not get explored. It’s that the writers seem to have mostly Sam focusing on strangers or himself, but rarely on his brother. And even when he does finally get around to noticing that something is up with Dean, Bobby is telling him not to bother. The same Bobby who was nagging Dean in premiere to dig into how Sam was doing.

             For me, this kind of writing creates a sense of imbalance between the characters. I feel like the relationship is largely one-sided, especially because they will never let Dean move on from his role as Sam’s wet-nurse, no matter how many times he is beaten into learning that lesson. So while I feel that Sam gets his share of emotional exploration and POV, I don’t particular like what we find when they pull back the curtain.

             Reply

             1. [quote]If soulless Sam had never set Dean up to be turned in the first place Lisa and Ben would not have been in danger. Or even if he had told Dean that there was a cure, which he clearly knew about, Dean may not have gone running to Lisa to say a last goodbye.

                It’s like saying the guy who forced booze on the drunk driver and then handed him the car keys, had no responsibility in the drunk driving accident that followed. Was the driver responsible — of course, but he wasn’t alone in setting the sequence of events in motion.
                [/quote]

                No, I’m sorry. Still not getting it. That analogy doesn’t work for me because the person being fed drinks is being robbed of his decision making skills. Their brain function is impaired. Dean’s was not. He was put in a bad situation but his choice was entirely his own. And it was a monumentally stupid one.

                Had Sam not been lying and there actually hadn’t been a cure, would that have made the decision any better? Would it then have been ok for Dean to possibly kill Lisa and Ben? No! Therefore the lie had no bearing on the decision.

                Soulless Sam’s actions put Dean himself in a great deal of danger and were a act of absolute betrayal towards Dean. But I do not buy that the collapse of Dean’s “normal life” was at all on his head. That was all Dean.

             2. And you don’t think Dean’s vampire bloodlust would affect his decision-making skills? Like Sam’s bloodlust aka addiction affected his decision making skills? Or like Lenore’s made her kill some teenager when she clearly did not want to?

                And the point is that soulless Sam did know about the cure and having different info may have changed Dean’s choices.

                If you cannot understand how having different information could change someone’s choice or see the parallel between craving blood and craving alcohol and how that might affect one’s behavior, then I think it’s probably because you are looking for reasons to blame Dean and excuse soulless Sam, even though Sam himself doesn’t have a soul and therefore already has the built-in whitewash already. And since the show clearly agrees with you, I have no idea why they even bothered with Unforgiven.

             3. Thank you for informing me of my probable motives. That is indeed extremely helpful information. The next time I have an opinion, I’ll double check to see whether my “agreeing with show’s hidden agenda” brand of crazy is showing.

                Excuses aren’t blanket. Sam’s soullessness excused his emotional decision making, not his logical one. If Soulless Sam sucked at math, that wouldn’t be because of soullessness, that’d just be because he sucks at math.

                Likewise, Dean’s bloodlust does not excuse his ridiculous goodbye tour. If he’d bashed Sam’s brains in on the way to some tasty blood, I’d excuse that. He’d have been driven by his cravings. This decision to visit Lisa and Ben had nothing to do with his bloodlust.

                The only thing that factored into that was his emotional state of mind which he himself is entirely responsible for controlling. If blame for a decision is handed out based on who put you in a generically crappy situation, I suppose Dean should get the blame for Sam’s decision to use his powers and start drinking demon blood. After all, his emotional state after Dean’s deal did “affect his decision making skills”.

                That’s not how it works. General emotional state does not work as a blanket excuse. And the events and people that lead you to that state do not hold the sole and total blame for your decisions.

                Soulless Sam knowing about the cure and not telling Dean does not excuse Dean’s idiotic move because that move wouldn’t have been the right one under any circumstances. If there hadn’t been a cure, if Soulless Sam had actually just decided that he could sacrifice Dean, would that have made it ok for Dean to visit Lisa and Ben? Is it only wrong to put them in danger if Dean has to live with it later?

          2. [i]He was in a different emotional state because of his condition, but he was in full possession of his faculties. [/i]

             How ironic that this describes Soulless Sam to a T, but while Dean is expected to own what he did while vamped, you don’t expect Sam to own what he did while soulless.

             Reply

             1. I already explained that….I just explained that in the post you responded to. Specific excuses cover specific deficiencies. Soulless Sam could not feel. This is not the case with Vampire Dean as clearly he had enough emotion left to want to visit Lisa and Ben one last time. Therefore he is accountable for the emotional decisions he makes. Vampire Dean is however not accountable for his bloodlust and wanting to kill people and drink them. If Soulless Sam wanted to kill people and drink them, he would be entirely responsible because his condition did not force that parameter onto him.

       2. [quote]And yet, the show never mentions again what Sam did to that woman. We never see him show remorse. Which suggests to me that the audience is supposed to have forgotten about that incident or handwaved it as something Sam did while on demon blood and therefore not truly responsible. Whitewash.
          [/quote]
          The show had her tied to the table and begging for her life for more than half an episode, how much more emphasis did you want? Sorry, lj but I don’t think the show has the time to show Sam and Dean’s remorse for every single person/demon they’ve ever killed.

          [quote]Dean himself mentions again, usually in the form of an apology. The only time there was not apology forthcoming was when it was soulless Sam. I do agree that there could be a parallel with Sam running off, but since it is visually so much less shocking and defamatory to a character the actual violence, I don’t believe the writers themselves are drawing that parallel. I would have believed they were after Dark Side of the Moon, but since new and improved season 7 Sam ran off with apparent complete justification and with Dean’s cowed blessing, then I do not think the writers thought he did anything wrong.
          [/quote]
          He apologised in Bloodlust. Did he in 7.03 or following the beating he gave Sam in 6.06? Also, running away might be visually less shocking but usually stems an awful lot more debate and is usually portrayed as having devastating consequences. His running away pre-Pilot led to the family being estranged for years, his running away in Bloodlust led to Dean being captured and himself almost being killed. His leaving in 5.03 left him open to attack and to Lucifer. His leaving in season 7 led to him being drugged, married and also being deemed a ‘bitch’.

          Add to that, Sam also admitted he was wrong every time he left. However, you must realise that Sam is not four. He’s an adult. In season 7, all times he left, he told Dean he was going so how in the name of God is he running away?

          [quote]Could you provide a link? I would be interested in reading that analysis and I don’t recall seeing it.
          [/quote]
          Up at the top of the main page there is a link that says ‘episodes’, click on that, and start reading. Have fun. Alternate to that, head over to IMBD or CWTV and start trawling. I’m not enabling anyone else’s lazy habit. I’m way too lazy for that.

          [quote]That was yet another one of Sam’s infamous generic apologies. To this day, I don’t know if Sam even knows that he let Dean get turned by a vampire. It certainly didn’t seem to resonate when he was trying to get Dean to go back to Lisa in the Mannequin episode or when Sam was berating Dean for wiping Lisa and Ben’s memories. If there was ever a time for that to be brought up, it would be in relation to Dean leaving Lisa and Ben. Yet nothing. Nada, Zilch. So Sam either does not feel any remorse of the actions of soulless Sam on Dean (unlike the oodles of guilt he had over perfect strangers) and the bomb he dropped on Dean’s family life or once again the writers want the audience to forget it happened in order to protect the character. Again, whitewash in my opinion.[/quote]
          So in other words, Sam’s apology wasn’t good enough for you. Well, nothing the show can do about that. In relation to whether or not he knew he let Dean be turned, he knew, and he apologised profusely for it.

          [i]Dean, I am so, so sorry…… For what I did to Bobby, to you. [/i]

          Kindly realise that just because you feel Sam’s apology wasn’t enough, doesn’t mean it wasn’t given. No matter how much you might want it, Sam can’t spend three quarters of every episode apologising to and flagellating himself before Dean for the grievances you hold against him.

          [quote]Really? Then why did everyone and their brother go on and on about how putting Sam’s soul back would destroy both Sam and soulless Sam? What was the point of even raising the issue if not to cast doubt on whether or not Dean was making the right choice. And let’s not forget that soulless Sam’s point of view on not wanting to be resouled was give plenty of airtime too. What was the point of any of that, if not to treat this as a morally gray issue which casts doubt on Dean’s actions? [/quote]
          Um, to give the viewers something to think about, and talk about during the half term? So viewers would be excited and watch when the show was back on? And lj, for everyone who said Dean was wrong for putting the soul back, someone else said he was right, including me.

          In relation to the gray area the show was to portray, well this isn’t a show for the lazy. Almost every action these two characters take are immersed in grey. How else do you explain the blood drinking, or sleeping with Ruby, or killing the nurse? I mean, God himself told Sam to stop doing what he was doing, that it was wrong (yet you’re saying there’s a ‘whitewash’ of Sam’s actions!!).

          Also, does the fact that Dean was proved monumentally right to put the soul back not make this gray area a lot more white?

          SPN is a show that inspires debate. If easy viewing is what you’re after, then find an episode of Barney.

          [quote]On this point, ITA. I feel like the show has been trying to make me love Sam best since day 1 with the Greek chorus of characters telling me how smart and special and blameless Sam really is despite some truly awful behavior, compared to his needy, pathetic, stupid, alcoholic guilt-wallowing brother. And that doesn’t even touch on the double standards within the writing which holds Dean responsible for his many mistakes with any excuses except his own flaws while Sam is always, always given the supernatural get out of jail free card.
          [/quote]
          Dude went to hell, that’s far from ‘free’, in my opinion.

          Also, given what you think of Sam, seems the show hasn’t done a great job of getting you to ‘love Sam best’. And considering the amount of ardent Dean and brotherly (and Castiel, Crowley, Bobby and John) fans there are out there, and the numerous polls etc out there consistently show Dean’s popularity, seems if this was their master plan, they did a sucky job of it all round.

          Of course, unless the show is [i]not[/i] trying to get us to love one more than the other but are merely putting two different characters and having them react to different situations and letting us make up our own mind?

          If the show wanted us to be blinkered in favour of Sam I could think of half a dozen instances where they could have changed one tiny aspect of an episode and we would have greater insight of / sympathy towards Sam. We would not have seen him so dismissively kill the waitress in 6.22, or arrived too late when Dean was being turned instead of standing idly by and grinning while he was. Hell, we could have gotten rid of entire Soulless Sam storyline and focused on Sam being returned damaged. We could have seen heavenly memories that didn’t make him look selfish, we could have found out why he ran away when he was a kid, we could have not seen Sam pick a fight with John right before he died, we could have seen how Sam’s time in the Panic Room affected Sam, we could have gotten some insight as to why Sam said yes to Lucifer, we could have found out how Mystery Spot affected Sam in the long term, not dismissed it, we could have found out what he did/felt the ten days he wasn’t with Dean or the three days he went camping, we could have seen Bobby saying Sam was his favourite or Ellen giving him a message. We could have seen Sam save Dean from hell. Jeez, we could have seen Jo have a crush on Sam, or any woman that wasn’t a monster or who didn’t die have a crush on him. Way more than half a dozen there (and I’m not even trying).

          [quote]…needy, pathetic, stupid, alcoholic guilt-wallowing….[/quote]
          Is this how you see Dean? Bloody hell, lj, may I ask, why on earth are you still watching the show? You seem to loathe Sam and want to hold him accountable and apologise for everything from global warming to the recession. Add to that, your dismissive attitude of Dean and all that he has done is truly staggering.

          Have you forgotten the Dean of the past six seasons; the one who gave up his life for his brother, who fought tooth and nail for his family, who puts his life on the line to save strangers, who will give up everything he wants to help others?

          Honestly, to describe Dean as needy, pathetic, stupid, alcoholic absolutely beggars belief.

          [quote]Me either but it is interesting how diametrically opposed our views are of the show and the characters.
          [/quote]
          What can I say, lj, we’re not pod people, all blindly agreeing to something, and thank God for that. You think the show is trying to manipulate viewers into favouring Sam, I think nothing could be further from the truth. I feel if the show were ardently pushing one brother over the other, it would have ended years ago.

          However, lj, this is what you take from the show so fair enough. Like I said, I can’t see it, even if I were to squint really, really hard.

          Reply

          1. Tim!!!
             Thank you thank you thank you for taking the time for this detailed and great reply!
             I wouldn’t have found the words, partly because such posts muddle my feelings often enough!!

             Reply

          2. I am starting with this comment because I think it is the fundamental point of disagreement between us.

             [quote]In relation to the gray area the show was to portray, well this isn’t a show for the lazy.[/quote] I actually disagree completely. This is a show for the lazy — lazy writers who have been underestimating the intelligence of their audience for years. They want an audience that does not question plotholes or OOC characterization. That isn’t bright enough to know that there is a huge gap between what the characters say and how they act. This show works well for viewers who just want simple escapism where they can turn off their critical faculties. But it’s ridiculously easy to see the flaws in the writing, whether for Sam, Dean, Castiel or Bobby, if you have even half a brain switched on. I mean isn’t that the crux of the complaints about the writing for Sam?

             Also there is a difference between morally gray — Sam or Dean doing the wrong things for the right reasons — and whitewashing, as in Sam does something shocking and horrible to his brother. Then two episodes later, the show blames the victim in one form or another.

             [quote]The show had her tied to the table and begging for her life for more than half an episode, how much more emphasis did you want? Sorry, lj but I don’t think the show has the time to show Sam and Dean’s remorse for every single person/demon they’ve ever killed.
             [/quote]
             And yet they managed to devote all of Unforgiven and the season 6 finale to complete strangers that Soulless Sam had killed and the associated guilt that real Sam felt over that. But not a peep over the nurse and beyond that, they had Bobby, Castiel and Dean be complicit in murdering more hosts to feed Sam’s need for blood in the season 5 finale. So ultimately the presentation of that as a morally questionable action was completely whitewashed. Oh look, there’s that word again. By the end of season 5, every supposedly “wrong” thing Sam did in season 4 had been re-enacted with Dean’s blessing. He was wrong to go after Lilith for revenge in season 4 but in season 5, Sam kills Bradey for no other reason and with Dean looking on in full support. The shock and horror of Sam drinking demon blood becomes the key to defeating Lucifer and saving the world. Choosing Ruby over Dean became completely justified because Dean drove Sam to her by being so bossy and controlling. Sam resenting Dean being the one chosen by angels to save the world turns out not be jealously or arrogance but truth. Sam is the only one who can save the world after all. I see that the writers think this is Sam earning his redemption but what I saw was that Sam was actually right at every turn in season 4 and season 5 was Dean coming to realize that. Sam did not work for his redemption, Dean just gave it to him after Cas and Bobby emotionally and physically beat the crap out of him and Sam, for once, was actually there for Dean instead of running off on his own to prove himself like he usually did, and like he did again this season.

             [quote]Add to that, Sam also admitted he was wrong every time he left. However, you must realise that Sam is not four. He’s an adult. In season 7, all times he left, he told Dean he was going so how in the name of God is he running away?[/quote] I think we will have to agree to disagree on Sam’s levels of maturity because I don’t think leaving your brother alone in a cabin with a broken leg and hopped up on pain meds so you can sneak off to find an old crush, is the act of a responsible adult. And even if you buy that it was enough to leave a note which gave no info other than I’ll be back in a few days, and disregarding the fact that you are hearing voices in your head that led you to a warehouse and almost caused you to shoot your brother, and which might cause said brother to have some concerns despite the one-line note, the fact that Sam refused to answer Dean’s calls pretty much does categorize this as running out on Dean, in my opinion. So yeah, that whole line about Sam being wrong to run off was clearly just another line he handed Dean in order to convince Dean not to say yes to Michael.

             [quote][i]Dean, I am so, so sorry…… For what I did to Bobby, to you. [/i]

             Kindly realise that just because you feel Sam’s apology wasn’t enough, doesn’t mean it wasn’t given. No matter how much you might want it, Sam can’t spend three quarters of every episode apologising to and flagellating himself before Dean for the grievances you hold against him.[/quote]

             Wow that’s not at all condescending. I am really starting to see why you identify so strongly with Sam. 😀

             But to address your point rather than your tone, I do not require half an episode worth or apologies. How about one line — Dean, I let your get turned into a vampire and ultimately that cost you Lisa and Ben. As opposed to Sam basically calling Dean a jackass for not answering Lisa’s calls (all of which happened off screen much like Sam’s story according to you guys)and acting like he didn’t have a clue why they would have broken up. By that point, the writers had clearly decided they were done with soulless Sam so after watching him treat Dean like crap for half a season, I as a fan of the character that he abused all that time, did not even get any catharsis in terms of the fall-out for Dean being addressed. Watching Sam wibble over spider people or the waitresses from Eureka is not the same as actually seeing an honest conversation revolving around the supposed heart of the show which is the brotherly bond, where Sam actually owns up to how badly his brother has suffered because of him. Sort of like how Dean very specifically owned up to being wrong to make the deal and causing Sam to suffer. Or how he apologized for being to bossy or not trusting Sam at least three times in season 5 alone.

             [quote]Dude went to hell, that’s far from ‘free’, in my opinion. [/quote]So did Dean. What’s your point?

             [quote]Up at the top of the main page there is a link that says ‘episodes’, click on that, and start reading. Have fun. Alternate to that, head over to IMBD or CWTV and start trawling. I’m not enabling anyone else’s lazy habit. I’m way too lazy for that. [/quote]
             Well if I don’t find those posts, I have no reason to believe that POV was presented on this website which is what you said.

             [quote]Also, given what you think of Sam, seems the show hasn’t done a great job of getting you to ‘love Sam best’. And considering the amount of ardent Dean and brotherly (and Castiel, Crowley, Bobby and John) fans there are out there, and the numerous polls etc out there consistently show Dean’s popularity, seems if this was their master plan, they did a sucky job of it all round. [/quote]We I am contrary that way. Buffy was my least favorite character too. Same goes for Lana Lang who also got the most-favored character treatment. In fact, nothing turns me off a character faster than feeling like they are being shoved down my throat. Just because the writers are arrogant enough to think they can manipulate audiences, doesn’t mean that it will work for everyone or even the majority of the audience as was the case for Buffy, Smallville and Supernatural, just to name a few.

             [quote][quote]…needy, pathetic, stupid, alcoholic guilt-wallowing….[/quote]Is this how you see Dean? Bloody hell, lj, may I ask, why on earth are you still watching the show? You seem to loathe Sam and want to hold him accountable and apologise for everything from global warming to the recession. Add to that, your dismissive attitude of Dean and all that he has done is truly staggering…

             Honestly, to describe Dean as needy, pathetic, stupid, alcoholic absolutely beggars belief. [/quote]Come on Tim, you can do better than that. LOL!

             You know damned well that I am being facetious by using words that the writers themselves have put in the mouths of other characters when describing Dean, and not just the bad guys. Sam and Bobby have both said or strongly implied that Dean is stupid, pathetic,whiny etc. I didn’t characterize Dean that way, the writers did.

             But you know, if you want to play that game, let me throw it back at you. How can you possibly claim to love Sam when you have no idea what makes him tick? If his presentation has been so completely unsympathetic, how can you stand this guy? Why would you even bother wanting to know more about what goes on in his head when it’s clearly such an ugly place? How can you even call yourself a fan of the show if you think they have done such poor job of presenting the lead character? See how that works?

             [quote]SPN is a show that inspires debate. If easy viewing is what you’re after, then find an episode of Barney. [/quote]Nah, can’t do it. I would miss your superiority complex far too much.

             Reply

             1. [quote]I actually disagree completely. This is a show for the lazy — lazy writers ……….But it’s ridiculously easy to see the flaws in the writing, whether for Sam, Dean, Castiel or Bobby, if you have even half a brain switched on.[/quote]
                Okay then…… This audience does indeed question plotholes and OCC characterisation, take a look at many of the articles and post on here. And no matter what you think of them, the audience are neither lazy, unintelligent and from what I know, they all have full brains switched on.

                [quote]I mean isn’t that the crux of the complaints about the writing for Sam?[/quote]
                Mistakes and lazy writing? No, I think it’s quite the opposite. I don’t feel it’s a mistake that they’re not writing from his POV, I think it’s intentional.

                [quote]Also there is a difference between morally gray — Sam or Dean doing the wrong things for the right reasons — and whitewashing, as in Sam does something shocking and horrible to his brother. Then two episodes later, the show blames the victim in one form or another.[/quote]
                Kinda like what happened in 7.07? (And you say Sam never apologises!)

                [quote]And yet they managed to devote all of Unforgiven and the season 6 finale to complete strangers that Soulless Sam had killed and the associated guilt that real Sam felt over that. But not a peep over the nurse and beyond that, they had Bobby, Castiel and Dean be complicit in murdering more hosts to feed Sam’s need for blood in the season 5 finale.[/quote]
                [i]Possessed[/i] hosts, therefore they were demons; demons killed in the hope of stopping Lucifer. Would you rather they were left alive? Course, then not only would you have more demons running around the place, Lucifer would still be there, killing all around him?

                And I have to say, lj, I’m a little confused. You seem resentful of the fact that the people he killed while soulless were acknowledged but also resentful that the nurse wasn’t. Which do you want? To have the people Sam killed acknowledged, or have them ignored?

                [quote]By the end of season 5, every supposedly “wrong” thing Sam did in season 4 had been re-enacted with Dean’s blessing.[/quote]
                Except for the part where he released Lucifer, and slept with a demon, and beat up his brother. No amount of writer manipulation can make the audience forget that ‘wrong’.

                Hey, maybe he got Dean’s blessing, and forgiveness, because Dean saw the sacrifice Sam made as making amends for all he had done wrong prior to that? Maybe he empathised and finally understood the depths of despair Sam sunk to following Dean’s death, as he too had been there in 2.21. And you know what, fair play to him. It seems that Dean judges people on their actions. He doesn’t need a verbal apology again and again…..

                [quote]He was wrong to go after Lilith for revenge in season 4 but in season 5, Sam kills Bradey for no other reason and with Dean looking on in full support.[/quote]
                Sam killed Brady because he was demon who not only killed Jessica but was planning on releasing the Croatoan virus on the population.

                [quote]…… Sam is the only one who can save the world after all.[/quote]
                Not at all, had Dean said yes to Micheal he too would have saved the world. He’d have saved it for the angels, which is what they wanted. Half the human population would have died but the world would have been saved.

                [quote]I see that the writers think this is Sam earning his redemption but what I saw was that Sam was actually right at every turn in season 4 and season 5 was Dean coming to realize that.[/quote]
                Releasing Lucifer was right?? Oh man…..

                [quote]Sam did not work for his redemption, …….. and like he did again this season.[/quote]
                Sam worked for his own redemption by sacrificing himself to the Pit. He earned Dean’s trust, forgiveness and redemption by (in season 5) not losing faith in him, no matter what Dean did.

                [quote]I think we will have to agree to disagree on Sam’s levels of maturity. because I don’t think leaving your brother alone in a cabin with a broken leg and hopped up on pain meds so you can sneak off to find an old crush, is the act of a responsible adult…… [/quote]
                Dean was three weeks into his recovery. Even I can manage fine after three weeks with a broken leg. Same with Sam, as Bobby said, he hadn’t had any hallucinations and was doing fine. Would you rather Sam were kept locked in a padded room for the rest of his life?

                Also, Sam went after a kitsune who was killing people, not to find an ‘old friend’.

                And I think that the show acknowledged Sam’s ‘running off’ when Dean punched Sam in the face (unless that’s your idea of a ‘whitewash’?)

                [quote]Wow that’s not at all condescending. I am really starting to see why you identify so strongly with Sam.[/quote]
                Cos I’m tall and have brown hair? Lj, tone is something that the [i]reader[/i] takes from the piece of writing, not what the writer writes. A poem’s tone can be interpreted many different ways based on the person reading it; therefore the tone you took from it is on you, not on me.

                [quote]But to address your point rather than your tone, I do not require half an episode worth or apologies. How about one line — Dean, I let your get turned into a vampire and ultimately that cost you Lisa and Ben.[/quote]
                He apologised, in 6.12. You’ve already been given the quote. Sam didn’t cost Dean Ben and Lisa; Dean cost Dean Ben and Lisa. And he sealed the deal when he had Castiel wipe their memories. I didn’t see Sam driving him to that. Contrary to what you seem to believe, Dean is his own man.

                [quote]As opposed to Sam basically calling Dean a jackass for not answering Lisa’s calls (all of which happened off screen much like Sam’s story according to you guys)[/quote]
                It happened on screen, and was also acknowledged on screen, in 6.13.

                [quote]…and acting like he didn’t have a clue why they would have broken up.[/quote]
                He didn’t have a clue, because he was never told. ‘You ever mention Ben and Lisa to me again and I will break your nose’. Sam has a nice nose and Dean has a hard punch; maybe that’s why he didn’t ask.

                [quote]……. I as a fan of the character that he abused all that time, did not even get any catharsis in terms of the fall-out for Dean being addressed.[/quote]
                There have been nine episodes of the fallout being addressed so far this season, and surely more to come.

                [quote]Watching Sam wibble over spider people or the waitresses from ……[/quote]
                Waitresses are people too.

                I dare say that in 6.16, Sam did acknowledge how badly his brother suffered because of him, ‘Some of us pulled a lot of crap, Dean’.

                Which would you prefer to see, lj, someone constantly saying they’re sorry or someone constantly proving they’re sorry. Were Sam’s actions is season 5 and the latter half of season 6, not proof enough that Sam was sorry?

                [quote]So did Dean. What’s your point?[/quote]
                My point is that you said he got a ‘Get out of Jail free’ card. I said he went to hell. That’s hardly get out of jail free, unless you’re playing with a different monopoly set to me.

                [quote]Come on Tim, you can do better than that. LOL!
                You know damned well that I am being facetious by using words that the writers themselves have put in the mouths of other characters when describing Dean, and not just the bad guys. Sam and Bobby have both said or strongly implied that Dean is stupid, pathetic,whiny etc. I didn’t characterize Dean that way, the writers did.[/quote]
                lj, I don’t know you, therefore I have no clue what you are like. You might have been being facetious, you might not have been. Your comments about Dean thus far have certainly suggest you’ve little time for him, as all you see him doing is apologising, grovelling and being stepped on; hardly the traits of an admirable character. You may say you were being facetious but I ain’t a mind reader.

             2. [quote]But you know, if you want to play that game, let me throw it back at you. How can you possibly claim to love Sam when you have no idea what makes him tick………How can you even call yourself a fan of the show if you think they have done such poor job of presenting the lead character? See how that works?[/quote]

                How can I call myself a fan of the show/be able to stand Sam? It’s very, very easy. I don’t look solely at what is on the surface. I look at Sam’s going to college and I don’t listen to what the show [i]tells[/i] me, that Sam is a selfish bastard for going, I try to think of [i]why[/i] he would go. I tie that up with the introspective bits of Sam that we do get, and I develop my own opinion. I don’t look at Sam drinking demon blood and think ‘God, he’s one stupid dick for drinking it’, I try to think about what state of mind he’d have been in even consider drinking blood. Simple really.

                I want to know more about what is going on in Sam’s ‘ugly’ head because I’m interested in people, and what drives people to do what they do. I also teach history, and history today is not just about memorising dates and event’s, it’s trying to examine and explain why people did what they did. No person, alive or dead, is a mere cardboard cutout. Every act, no matter how heinous, had (to the perpetrator, anyway) a justifiable reason behind it. That’s what I look at. I don’t look at Dean drinking and think ‘alcoholic’, I think ‘Ok, what’s going on in his head that would make a hunter want to get rat-arsed thereby endangering himself and others.’

                That’s why I like the characters on SPN, and the show itself. I look at them and am forced to think ‘Could I do what they did?’ That’s enjoyable to me.

                [quote]Nah, can’t do it. I would miss your superiority complex far too much.[/quote]
                Finally! Hear that everyone, I’m superior. Hah, kneel before Todd, my ass. Down on your knees before Tim!!! lj, thank you so much!.

             3. You know lj, I’ve thought long and hard about replying to this thread. But this right here is really insulting to everyone: “This is a show for the lazy — lazy writers who have been underestimating the intelligence of their audience for years. They want an audience that does not question plotholes or OOC characterization. That isn’t bright enough to know that there is a huge gap between what the characters say and how they act. This show works well for viewers who just want simple escapism where they can turn off their critical faculties.”

                First of all, I consider myself an intelligent person able to think for myself. I work hard all day, and the last thing I want from a television show is for me to have to analyse it to death, I am not a critic. I happen to like pure escapism, either in book form, movies or television. If I want the cold hard reality, I’ll watch the news or read the paper.

                As you’ve said, we are all entitled to our own opinion. Seems to me you don’t really like this show anymore and that’s my opinion.

             4. It’s similar for me, Sylvie. I am confronted with cold hard reality on an every day basis, in my line of work and, unfortunately, sometimes in my own life or the lives of people close to me.

                The stories I hear from some of my patients sometimes are far more atrocious than this show has come up with for its characters.
                Though I like to suffer with Sam, Dean and the whole caboodle (which is a strangely masochistic streak I’ve noticed in me 😆 ), I also love the escapism this show gives us.
                It’s a high standard escapism, and for me that’s the best kind of entertainment.

                Best, Jas

40. No need to worry, Samfans. Sera probably plans on making Sam the second coming of Jesus Christ.

    Reply

    1. If it was something in the neighbourhood of John Niven’s novel “The Second Coming” it would be a great story. But Edlund should write it, that would definitely be his territory.

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    2. Thank you,I would really like to watch it…

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41. Oh, dear the more I read this thread of discussion, the more I believe we are not watching the same show… It’s quite clear for me, with all those twists and turns, what is happening to Dean and what is happening to Sam.

    To my mind it has character development written all over it, moreover it’s in consonance with the journeys these men have taken. Their psycho-social reactions are inherently consistent, and according to their characters. If they were patients of mine, I wouldn’t wonder about this or that, because it would be fitting, coherent and harmonious in terms of their characters. But, well, that’s just me.

    Reply

    1. Again, thank you. I also see consistency and realism in how they have shown the boys responses to the trauma they have suffered and continue to suffer.

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42. I am sorry you feel others have got it wrong . I thought alot of posts put very good valid points across on how they feel. If Sam had been through a minor ordeal I would agree with you that clam Sam would of worked but he didnt and the fact they went from one Sam at a extreme time to a completely opposite Sam with no build up by episode 3 wasnt us that was poor writing.

    The fact is there hasnt been anything stopping them from showing us if not Dean or Bobby but us signs and scenes Sam isnt aright .Intelligent people cant all be wrong and if they feel esp this time the writing hasnt served Sam then they arent anymore in the wrong than those who feel fine with Sams writing.
    It doesnt mean we are watching a different show. Personally I have found Sams writing damaging to him rather than benefits him but that just how I feel.

    Reply

    1. This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to post here as often as I used to do – misconstruction of my intention. I didn’t actually say that others got it wrong. Also, I didn’t refer to the “writing of Sam”, only to my own view of his character (and the others).Furthermore, I didn’t mean to attack any intelligent people out there or their opinions.

       Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. You are allowed to feel about it as you do, and I’ll do the same.

       I said from my perspective I don’t find it out of character that Sam or Dean react like they do these days. Their reactions today don’t appear to be too far off to my mind, and I see their developments in terms of dealing with their ordeals in their own ways. And I don’t feel like posting a long comment explaining in detail why I am of that opinion. In this case it would have been better, I presume, to not have said anything at all.

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43. Nobody asked you to write a long comment. If you put a post in then my apologizes for replying to it.in future I will avoid your posts so therefore wont make that mistake again.

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    1. Thanks for making my point.
       I didn’t mean to offend you, my apologies if I did, and I assume neither did you.

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44. I couldn’t agree more w/Tim and Sharon and others who are also disappointed w/Sam’s story.

    The execution of this story is simply awful, IMO. I don’t care what happens in the 2nd half of the season with Sam; they have done a spectacularly poor job w/this story. Writing is all about momentum, and Sam’s story had tons in the first two episodes, but after 7.02, his story came to an abrupt halt and the momentum in his story was lost. IMO, they can’t just pick it up again w/o it seeming contrived and forced. I have no favorite character. I’m a “bi-bro” fan but I can’t help but feel this crappy storytelling would not be occurring if Dean had a “Hell Wall” collapse. Dean would be getting an emotional POV. Why isn’t Sam getting that?

    I started to realize that Sam was getting NO emotional development in S5 and hadn’t been getting much of any since S2. I was impressed w/7.01 and 7.02, and I foolishly thought things had changed, but now I KNOW that the writers don’t care about Sam. Sam’s sole purpose on this show is to provide Dean w/angst and to cause Dean problems. He has NO voice in his own story. It’s strange. These writers seem wholly uninterested in exploring Sam’s emotional development or giving him a POV. For that reason, I sincerely hope nothing else happens to him as long as the show remains on the air. He can just hunt and help Dean. The writers don’t seem to like writing for him on any emotional level, so they need to stop letting crazy, traumatic things happen to him like being in Hell 180 years or learning demons have been following him throughout life or making him drink demon blood. If any of these things happened to Dean, I’m sure we would have rec’d Dean’s POV on them AS WE SHOULD. We would have gotten Dean’s journey to the point of drinking DB or at least one episode w/FBs to help the audience understand why Dean went down that path. AND that would have been appropriate and good storytelling. Why the rules change when it comes to Sam, I’ll never know or understand.

    The 1st season was the best at giving both boys’ POVs. We were cheated out of Sam’s feelings re: John’s death in S2, but we did get a lot on how he felt about John’s message to Dean and the possibility of becoming “evil.” We got a lot of perspective on how Sam felt about Dean’s deal in S3, but not enough on how Sam felt about Dean’s sacrifice for him. Dean gave up his life for Sam, and we got that one comment at the end of 2.22 but nothing else.

    Don’t even get me started on the lack of Sam POV in S4. Oddly enough, I didn’t notice the lack of Sam POV back then. I still love S4, but they could have done a much better job of explaining Sam’s position on Ruby and how he started drinking DB. From S4 onward, Sam’s POV has been either been truncated and limited to a single episode or flat out ignored. It’s never been fully explored. I loved “Unforgiven,” but I would have loved to know how Sam felt about almost killing Bobby or letting Dean get vamped. It was briefly mentioned. I really enjoyed Robo!Sam, but, as usual, the impact of that crazy situation was never really explored for Sam. We know how Dean felt about it, but we don’t know how the person who actually experienced felt. Why let Sam do these things or have these crazy things happen to him but not let him express any feelings about them??!?!? It doesn’t make literary sense to me.

    In short, I expect nothing much to happen w/Sam’s Hell. We got the best we’re going to get, IMO, 7.01 and 7.02. I have a feeling that the execution of this story – whatever it is – will be poor, IMO. Not to begrudge Dean his emotional arc/journey, but if they simply had to split the season, it seems like Sam’s issues should have been addressed first. I’m confused as to why they stopped his story before it even started.

    As each episode passes, to me, it makes less and less sense, IMO, to revisit Sam’s troubles w/Hell, esp. since we are not being given any hints that he’s NOT functioning. He appears to be functioning well. I see no nightmares, no struggling to manage the hallucinations, no spacing out, no trying to focus while on a hunt or in a conversation w/Dean or anyone . . . I see NO STORY. To suddenly have him flipping out or breaking down in the 2nd half of the season (if this actually happens) will not make much sense to me, and the entire plot (the Wall / Sam’s time in Hell) will have been pointless and a waste of time.

    If they weren’t planning on doing anything w/him re: his experience in Hell, then they should have just left the Wall in place. There was no need to let it drop if they were going to do a half@$$ job w/the consequences of the Wall dropping.

    If the writers aren’t interested in Sam emotionally, then stop putting him in wacky situations where any normal person would have feelings or have trouble coping, but not Sam . . . the robotic man! What kind of story is this?

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    1. I agree, 100%.

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45. “In short, I expect nothing much to happen w/Sam’s Hell. We got the best we’re going to get, IMO, 7.01 and 7.02. I have a feeling that the execution of this story – whatever it is – will be poor, IMO. Not to begrudge Dean his emotional arc/journey, but if they simply had to split the season, it seems like Sam’s issues should have been addressed first. I’m confused as to why they stopped his story before it even started.”
    Well, I WISH we could be done with Sam’s hell whether it comes across as bad writing or not, simply because after almosr an entire season of nothing else BUT Sam’s most horrible hell ever, I am ready to move on from on it. And, IMO, the reason that they’re dealing with Dean’s issues first is because they were on the cusp of losing a ton of Deanfans, in addition to the Cas fans because someone made the grand decision that if something works well, they should just get rid of it, anyway. If Sam is your favorite, again I say never fear because since S4, the showrunners have been making the Sam’s story the centerpiece of the season finales and often those episodes that lead up to it also.
    Also Sam has had plenty of focus in this first half of the season, IMO-even if it hasn’t been on his angst. I can only hope that Dean will get as much focus after HIS “emo” storyline has been tied up.

    Reply

    1. I don’t think they will loose “Dean” fans or “Sam” fans and we have this shown in the numbers of viewers. The internet fandom is a different fandom than the “average” viewer and the smallest part of viewers who normally continues to watch till the show gets to boring for other reasons.

       The “threat” of loosing “Dean”fans or “Sam” fans is really old and I think it is an empty threat. Don’t even start with Castiel fans. I am glad he is gone!This show is not about Castiel and never was, just like Bobby!

       I just want to see the person Sam between all that other issues and the show denies it!
       Hell or not hell, how he is dealing, what is his experience alone in the desert, what is he seeing while running? This requires not much from the writers to give it to me as a part of the fandom. A few scenes in an episode and I have what I want! Its not much, but I think they don’t care for the person Sam or they don’t dare to delve into his personality, because they have no idea how as a counterpart of Dean.

       Its (very!!!) sad for me!

       Reply

    2. I am fan of both brothers, Shana, and as a fan of both, I want to see BOTH get emotional development and exploration.

       Since you may only care about Dean, it may not bother you that Sam has no POV, but it does bother some fans. I’m one of those fans.

       And I don’t think the show gave Dean an “emo” arc b/c they were scared of losing Dean fans. Fans of Dean only have nothing to fear w/this show b/c it’s told from Dean’s POV. What are you so upset about, Shana? You will always know what’s going on w/Dean. You will always know how he feels.

       The Dean fan in me is fine w/that. The Sam fan in me would like that for Sam, but I realize that ain’t happening on this show.

       I do wish Dean had a better plot/storyline this year, but that’s a whole other post.

       Reply

       1. I’m probably going to do a Dean article, but I’m waiting until Winter Hellatus. I want to see what happens in the upcoming episode with him first, since his story seems to be more fleshed out this season.

          Reply

          1. That’ll be interesting. I love these essays that you write. Although, I wonder if it will bring out as much heated discussion as this one!

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46. There are those of you fellow Supernatural viewers wondering why Sam seem suddenly okay and altogether since he went off the rails in Hello, Cruel World. Why the Lucifer hallucinations have become less of a pressing problem. I have a theory that may set up a twisted rough road for Sam. I think in the time between Sam leaving Dean after he found out his role in Amy’s death and their reunion in the Mentalists, Mental Lucifer has evolved from a hallucinatory presence to an alternate personality with the power to take over Sam’s body. I think he is in full control of Sam and when he touches his palm these days, it isn’t to maintain his sense of reality but to keep Sam at bay. The reason why Mental Lucifer hasn’t run off and left Dean is because of the Leviathans. They want Sam dead which would mean his death and since he doesn’t have the same abilities as the original Lucifer, he has no choice but to pair up with Dean in hopes that together they can find a way to defeat them. Once they’ve gone, Mental Lucifer can be free to do whatever he wants. But in the meantime, he has no choice than to pretend to be dear, old Sam with the help of his access to Sam’s memories and do the sort of things Sam would do like being angry at Dean for what he did to Amy and, later, worrying about Dean’s state of mind.

    Resolving this problem will be tricky because this isn’t a case of demonic posession. Mental Lucifer is a representation of Sam’s Hell trauma which would make him a part of Sam’s personality. To conquer Mental Lucifer or at least have supreme control of him, Sam needs to tackle his Hell trauma like he has never done before. Forcing Mental Lucifer into submission may turn him into an unexpected helper in the interest of his and Sam’s self-preservation like Neural Scorpius aka Harvey was to John Crichton in Farscape.

    So either Mental Lucifer is in full control of Sam or he takes over Sam from time to time, not all the time, and puts in fake memories in Sam’s mind to cover up the blackouts which may have occured during the time he was on his own after taking a break from Dean after the Amy bombshell and when he was apart from Dean before It’s Time for a Wedding.

    Reply

    1. Your theory would explain much of Sam’s behavior, but I would HATE to have second year devoted to another not-Sam. We had soulless Sam and Sam with 2/3 of himself behind a wall last year. To have Sam split again and not himself would be very frustrating to me.

       Reply

       1. But here’s the thing. This isn’t completely not-Sam. Mental Lucifer is a part of who Sam is and it is likely he’ll always be a part of Sam. It’s like the situation of the character Tara from the United States of Tara. She has multiple alternate personalties but they all represent aspects of who Tara is as a person.

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          1. Exactly! Just like Robo!Sam was part of Sam.

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             1. RoboSam told us nothing about Sam. He might have been part of him, physically at least, but Sam would have never acted that way with his soul.

                IMO, Robo was representative of a human being without a soul, nothing more. Dean would have acted the same way without his soul, without the part that makes him human.

                I’d rather we get a story about Sam, the person, not Sam, the supernatural freak.

             2. Well, I think SoulessSam was more than just an illustration of a person without a soul – he was specifically Sam without a soul. Sam who had the same memories and thoughts that SoulSam did, but without the filter of compassion and conscience. Sam always had the capacity for dark deeds – he’s feared it in himself since S1. SoulessSam was more than just physically Sam or he wouldn’t have to be reintergrated in Sam’s head to make RealSam whole.

          2. I like the idea of Sam having dual personalities. That would be an interesting way to explore Sam’s Hell without wallowing in too much angst.

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    2. I think I like this idea. I thought that Sam put his split persona together again too quickly and easily.

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    3. This is the kind of thing that I think proves the point of the perceived weaknesses in the writing for Sam lately. If the viewer has to come up with elaborate theories in his head as to why Sam could possibly be acting the way he’s acting, then something is missing in the writing of the character.

       I would hate the scenario you describe, Justin, because it essentially writes the Sam I have come to know out of the story and substitutes another character, albeit one still played by Jared Padalecki. Even at his absolute lowest and worst point in season 4, Sam was still relatable and identifiable, because his intentions were good. You could still root for his redemption. I don’t see how anyone could do that if he’s Mental Lucifer. Once you make a character a full-on villain, there’s only one choice, and that’s for the hero to fight him and win. I know some viewers would be all for that, but I wouldn’t watch it.

       Reply

       1. Well, Mental Lucifer wouldn’t be so much of a villain than an anti-hero like Spike became in Season 5 of Buffy.

          Reply

          1. The problem for me is that Mental Lucifer wouldn’t be SAM. Yes he would be a part of Sam, but we did that already with soulless!Sam. I don’t want only half-Sam, or 1/4 Sam or Lucifer/Sam. I want to know about SAM. Your theory may be right, and the writers may go that way, but it would be totally unsatisfying to me.

             Reply

    4. very very interesting theory..i would not be surprised if the reasoning you gave for Sam touching his palm turns out to be true

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    5. Please no. I’ve had enough of the “multiple Sam” stories that we’ve been given over the course of the series. It’s one of the reasons why I’m having a difficult time relating to a character that I once loved. Mainly because I don’t know who he is anymore.

       Reply

    6. Thanks, Justin, for presenting an interesting theory level-headedly. This could actually make sense, albeit within the territory of a fictional story.

       What you describe here would be a kind of post-traumatic psychosis. Sometimes people that went through horrific traumatic experiences develop similar symptoms, but are not “really” schizophrenic. They sometimes see people that are not there (often the ones that were responsible for their trauma, in this case: Lucifer) and are fully aware that it’s not possible – which is an indication that they are not “really” psychotic (forgive me if this is confusing, I’m trying to explain all this in more-or-less layman’s terms).

       One of the characteristics of a psychotic person is that he is not able to be aware that the person he sees is not there at all, but a hallucination. It takes medicine to help them do that.

       Sam, after the first shock, has realized (with Dean’s help and the distraction the “pressing-the-hand”gesture provides) that Lucifer is an image in his mind.

       I’m quite curious if and how the writers will address this issue further. Cheers, Jas

       Reply

47. “What are you so upset about, Shana?”
    Many things since Fallen Idols, but mainly this:

    “It seems to me the biggest problem with this show is that they seem to have run out of ideas. Hell even Dean’s emo arc for this season is essentially the same story they have telling every year since season 2. The only story they seem to be adamantly against is giving Dean in their attempts so-called literary symmetry is any kind of a central role where he is important simply for himself rather than as an extension of his brother. That one, they seem to have zero interest in recycling.”

    and this, both by lj-who, btw and from what I’ve read in my travels, is doing a terrific job of presenting many others’ feelings on this subject, IMO. She is most certainly saying much that *I* agree with completely-so if you want to know more of why I’m so upset, go back and re-read her posts.

    “If soulless Sam had never set Dean up to be turned in the first place Lisa and Ben would not have been in danger. Or even if he had told Dean that there was a cure, which he clearly knew about, Dean may not have gone running to Lisa to say a last goodbye.

    It’s like saying the guy who forced booze on the drunk driver and then handed him the car keys, had no responsibility in the drunk driving accident that followed. Was the driver responsible — of course, but he wasn’t alone in setting the sequence of events in motion.

    Not that the show would ever bother to put that much thinking into their scripts. All they care about is cool, shocking twist of having Sam look evil and then they just ignore the full consequences so that Sam is never made to take responsibility for his actions.

    I mean why bother with an episode like Unforgiven if they were not going to bother addressing what was done to Dean and Bobby? As a viewer, I don’t give a damn about a bunch of one-off characters that soulless Sam did bad things to a year earlier. Nor do I care how many Ruby look-alikes he banged while without his soul. I care that soulless Sam did some massive damage to characters and relationships that I have grown to love over 6 years and the show keeps telling me are important, yet none of that is directly addressed by the show’s protagonist when he is wallowing in the guilt that he has a built-in free pass for anyway.

    So tell me again, why I am supposed to believe that those characters or relationships actually are important on the show?

    So I guess the upshot of all of this is that for me, it’s not that Sam’s feelings and POV do not get explored. It’s that the writers seem to have mostly Sam focusing on strangers or himself, but rarely on his brother. And even when he does finally get around to noticing that something is up with Dean, Bobby is telling him not to bother. The same Bobby who was nagging Dean in premiere to dig into how Sam was doing.

    For me, this kind of writing creates a sense of imbalance between the characters. I feel like the relationship is largely one-sided, especially because they will never let Dean move on from his role as Sam’s wet-nurse, no matter how many times he is beaten into learning that lesson. So while I feel that Sam gets his share of emotional exploration and POV, I don’t particular like what we find when they pull back the curtain.”

    I haven’t been able to buy the brother bond since Fallen Idols. The Mentalists helped somewhat with that, but I’ve come to accept that Sam might never be “likable” to me because the writers won’t allow me to like him because they won’t allow him to FULLY and SPECIFICALLY own his less than loving behavior and deeds concerning his brother and that have w/o a doubt played a part in Dean’s life-long feelings of no/low self-worth. If the writers see nothing wrong with Sam taking off on Dean(note or no note) when Dean is physically injured or when he supposedly knows that Dean is in a very, very emotionally unstable place, then so be it. But they’re not endearing Sam to me, in any way, by having Sam see nothing wrong with that-especially when they would have us believe that Dean doing it is the “expected good brother” reaction-except for those times plot-wise, when it’s “wrong” or “too OTT” and “holds Sam back”.
    I also agree with the other poster who said that the writing for all the characters has become horrendous since S5, but Dean alone I still love with all my heart(and this, probably more because of Jensen, than anything else).

    Reply

    1. Aww shucks. Thanks Shanna.

       Reply

    2. Sounds like your problem is w/the writing, Shana.

       Did you ever like Sam? If not, then I can understand why you could never root for him again after S4. I was less than thrilled w/Sam’s actions in S4 and the crappy reconciliation in S5. I hated Fallen Idols as well, but I saw no point in “hating” Sam for not saying the “right” things when it became clear that the writers didn’t think there was a problem.

       The writers don’t care about Sam or his relationships w/anyone – strangers or family. Sam is a plot point for Dean.

       I never hated Sam, so when he went off the deep end in S4 and wasn’t given any persepctive in S5, I didn’t hold the “bad writing” against the character. It’s literally NOT Sam’s fault that he has no perspective and is written like a robot.

       Reply

48. Well there you go. The poor innocent little Oliver that Dean is . Stuck with a no good younger brother who is it seems to blame for some of little Olivers self worth issues.

    Supernatural a Dickens Classic .

    Reply

    1. Much as Dean’s overly-controlling and overly-protective nature was to blame for Sam finding the brothers’ relationship undesirable enough to have wanted to be with and go with Ruby and do whatever she said, even after Dean had returned from hell.

       Reply

       1. There was no brother when he went to Ruby and he did not discard ruby after Dean came that is why i like Sam ..she was the one who helped him at his darkest …

          Reply

          1. If by “help” you mean manipulate him into drinking demon blood and setting Lucifer free, absolutely. Ruby was there for Sam in his darkest hour, leading him right into the mistake he regretted most in his life. So . . . yay for Sam being blinded to what she was doing and refusing to listen to his brother, Bobby, angels, Chuck, and the scores of others telling him she was bad news?

             (**In Sam’s defense, I completely understand how he was in such a place of despair Ruby was able to get past his defenses and ingratiate herself with him to the point where he shut out everyone else. But I think we can all agree it wasn’t a good thing, right?)

             Reply

             1. Thank you for your comment and i agree and i wanted someone to point it out ..this was what we saw but not Sam. This is what i mean by Sam’s POV. for Sam (SAM) she was there and all the names you have listed were not there or didn’t even bother and for Sam that mattered..that is why i like sam. She was wrong no doubt about that but for Sam she was there…

             2. Sam didn’t let anyone be there for him. After Dean died, he stopped all communication with Bobby. When Dean returned, he was too focused on revenge to let Dean in.

          2. Are you kidding me? She didn’t help Sam. Sam was at his darkest and she helped exacerbate the situation. In the end, I don’t believe Sam appreciated her “help” very much, given that he held her still while Dean killed her. I

             Reply

             1. He helped Dean kill her ..when?Last episode till then he saw her as a friend…Should people not change their position when new facts come to light?She exacerbated the situation,yes.When did Sam come to know that?If Dean’s reasoning for Sam leaving Ruby was “I Said So” that was very flimsy..Sam did not let Ruby in too at the beginning but i guess persistence wins

             2. We,re just going to have to agree to disagree.

                I guess I was the only one who never trusted Ruby. No matter how many times she helped them, I always believed that she was using the brothers, Sam especially. Which is why I never considered her a friend to Sam. For goodness sake, she was a demon after all.

             3. Oh it was fun ..even though we disagreed at the end this is one of the first long discussions i had.Take care .bye

       2. Indeed. Poor Sammyrella. When will his Prince come? Oh wait, mean Dean stabbed her. 😛

          Reply

49. Okay everyone, I’ve had some complaints. Since there are so many comments skating on thin ice, allow me to remind of a few rules:

    – Be respectful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It’s okay to politely agree to disagree. No slamming someone with a strong reply because their opinion differs from your own.

    – NO Sam vs. Dean. In other words, NO knocking down Dean to build up Sam and vice versa. I accept that we all see the brotherly dynamic differently, but try to support your points with examples.

    Thank you. I know this has been a hot button topic and I’ve been away for a few days, so I’ve let go far more than I should. I’ll take the blame for that one, but I’m watching from here on out.

    Here’s the link to our rules:

    [url]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news-and-announcements/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules.html[/url]

    Reply

    1. It’s good of you to point that out, Alice. Thanks.

       I’d like to add – the characters in the show have been able to forgive each other for what they have done (there was, for instance, a very moving scene at Rufus’ grave, if memory serves), yet some of us fans keep reproaching the characters with their mistakes in the past.

       I’d like to suggest that we take them as an example and be more forgiving to characters we love. After all, they can be very inspiring in many aspects, if we allow them to be.

       Thanks, Jas

       Reply

       1. Thank you for reminding Jasminka. Yes your articles have become less in number.You were one of the first writers after Alice whose articles i used to read in my lurking days.I always used o like your articles.Better to wait for the next epi and enjoy the ride.

          Reply

          1. Thank you, anonymousN for your kind words. I know I haven’t been writing for a while now. There are many reasons for it, some of them very personal, so please forgive me for not elaborating more on them.

             May I recommend to perhaps read the odd article again ( 😉 ), you might find it interesting on a second read, too?

             Again, thank you. Take care, Jas

             Reply

       2. My main point(and I think many others here) was that Dean has been called out on the show and through the writing and the dialogue for everything under the sun that he’s done wrong in the relationship. He’s been made to recognize it, acknowledge it, apologize for it and attempt to change it. I’ve seen little of such writing for Sam as regards the brother relationship and in that, I’ll agree that the writing for Sam has been worse than it has been for Dean-and it’s a shame because THIS would be the best way for the writers to make Sam more a likable character, IMO-to everyone-if the writers care about that or are interested in doing it. It’s tough to forgive a character for something when it doesn’t even appear as if the writing recognizes that there’s even a problem/anything to forgive.
          Other than that, and over the course of the series, I have to disagree strongly with those who see Sam/JP as having been short-changed by the writers and their writing, more than any other character/actor on the show.

          Reply

          1. I see what you mean. I have no real issues with the writing, as I see it differently – in contrast to most commenters, obviously, but I have to acknowledge that many have, else there would not be such a heated discussion.

             Forgiveness is a blessing. I don’t see a reason to hold a such a grudge against anyone (in particular against a fictional character), and whenever I can, I try to be forgiving. And I hope I will never cease to find it in me.But, I can only speak for myself.
             Cheers, Jas

             Reply

             1. I feel that I am a forgiving person, too; and I can forgive these writers for the poorer quality of their writing for the last two and a half seasons. I wouldn’t be here if I couldn’t-but like some others here, I can only feel for their characters, what the writers will allow *me* to feel for them-and this is accomplished-for *me*-mostly, through their writing of them. However, what the actors on this show do and don’t do with their characters, also has a great impact on this for *me*. I’ve kept watching from mid S5 onward, mainly because of Jensen-and the way that he, IMO, has always(even from the very beginning), transcended the writing of his character. I think JP is fine, too, but, and again-for *me*, he and his character tend to be more dependent on getting proper writing. And I feel this way about JB’s Bobby, also. My final thought here is that I hope with all that’s in me that they will not forget about Cas; and that they will give him a better send-off(IF they choose not to bring MC back on even a recurring basis-and I’m truly hoping for this in S8), if we’re never going to see him again. His exit in 7.02 seemed like such an ignominious one to me(if that is indeed what it was) for such a beloved/popular character… *heads back to the lurkdom*…

             2. I hope you won’t be disappointed and that you’ll be content with the further course of the show. I have a feeling I might have hurt you with my response, and that wasn’t my intention. I do apologize, if I have, Shelby.

                I am sure Castiel will be back. I have no idea how they might do it or if it will be Cas (or his “human” alter ego), but I hope, too, that we’ll see more of him. I don’t think you’ll have to worry about that.

             3. No worries and no hurt feelings at all. Promise.

             4. I’m glad, then. 😉

          2. “”the writing for Sam has been worse than it has been for Dean” is why Sam has been short-changed as a character. Writing is everything.

             Your post in interesting because I finally understand the depth of anger from Dean fans about “Fallen Idols”, where many felt that Dean’s justifiable anger was cut off at the knees, and he ended up apologizing when Sam was the one who had betrayed him.

             And this season we got “The Mentalists”, where Dean lied and betrayed Sam’s trust with Amy, yet never apologized and Sam got yelled at for being angry too long.

             And yes, it made Dean a whole lost less likeable to me, so I understand you would feel that way about Sam.

             Reply

             1. “the writing for Sam has been worse than it has been for Dean” is why Sam has been short-changed as a character. Writing is everything.”
                Again, for me, only in that one thing I mentioned-not over-all; not IMO.

50. It all comes down to perception. I think they have done as writers very little with Sams story and nothing anybody has said has changed or made me rethink that. Same with the brothers relationship and who did what? I dont percieve either one as faultless in that one.

    Sam suffered a huge life altering situation here and it hasnt really impacted him . His whole life has been one thing after another but the lack of personal focus for me has seen that get lost in everything else.

    So in the scheme of it all Sam just had to be all well and what was the quote ‘there are people worst off than me’ all nice and neat and tidy.

    Reply

51. I just have a feeling that the writers are trying to find different ways to deal with Sam’s hell fallout, than how they dealt with Dean’s, without being redundant.

    The fact that you have two main characters who went to hell and were brought back is a little redundant in and of itself.

    Reply

52. [quote]
    I don’t share your view – I don’t think the whole situation was handled the way you look at it. I understand that, to your mind, Dean didn’t receive as much support as you would have liked to be there. From my point of view there have been many moments in which he was shown support and love from those closest to him.

    Alas, when times get rough and life swings you about, then there often isn’t enough time to deal with these inner conflicts (in Supernatural’s context: e.g. when a battle has to be fought, a friend’s life saved or a brother kept sane), in a fictional story as in real life.[/quote]

    I agree with your entire post, and especially this. There’s this attitude that Bobby and Sam were somehow dismissive of Dean’s pain that I don’t at all agree with. Not being dismissive does not entail coddling, especially when the fate of the entire world hangs on the actions of the person you’re trying to get through to. Dean’s had a lot of rough breaks in life. He has a lot of wounds that cut deep and will probably never heal and that the actions of those around him will at times exacerbate. They know this and care but their existence shouldn’t be dictated by how much it will or won’t play into his issues. And sometimes the immediacy or gravity of the situation overrides how gentle you feel they should be with him.

    Reply

    1. Woah…that was supposed to be in response to a conversation way up thread. Don’t know why it ended up here. Ignore, please.

       Reply

    2. I think that if they won’t give him some kind of resolution this time around-after all this IS the third go round with it-and he winds up just stuffing everything down again, then they should just stop trying to pass this off as an excuse for a storyline for Dean-because it’s really more a part of his characterization, then.

       Reply

       1. For me, staying true to Dean’s characterization is very important. This man does have difficulties handling the burdens he’s carrying and those have become even heavier in the course of the show.

          I find it very interesting to see how Dean is struggling to keep a sane head on his shoulders and deal with it all. He’s a quiet hero, but a hero nonetheless.

          One of my favourite defintions of a hero comes from French novelist Romain Rolland: “A hero is a man who does what he can. The others don’t.”
          This holds true for Dean, but also for the other protagonists of our beloved show.

          I can see that you and some others miss a “storyline for Dean” which is a view I can’t share. I find plenty in that department. There is character growth, grace under fire, new and heavy loss, etc. etc. etc. I don’t miss a storyline, simply because I am convinced it is there. For me, it always has been.

          Reply

       2. [quote]I think that if they won’t give him some kind of resolution this time around-after all this IS the third go round with it-and he winds up just stuffing everything down again, then they should just stop trying to pass this off as an excuse for a storyline for Dean-because it’s really more a part of his characterization, then.[/quote]
          Considering he is the main pov character he will never lose out. And being given a so called sl means little if as a character your pov and thoughts and how it impacts you is either ignored or glossed over . Sams sls havent meant much to him but has meant alot to those around him and how it impacts them.

          Reply

53. Wow, when has a simple Question turned into a Sam vs. Dean thing again?

    Just to squash any of this from the start. I’m neither one girl or the other. I watch for the interaction of both brothers. Therefore I’ve never seen Dean as useless or without a storyline or anything else he was accused of. If I did like one thing about the mentalist is was the one line that “that one’s true gift can be to take care of others”. I don’t see that as a bad thing. But neither do I see Dean as a whole saint some want us to make believe, as I don’t see Sam as the “bad” brother. I try to look what motivates people in doing what they do and not only the act itself (unfortunately – and here I blame the writers – they left much to guessing)
    Since the article was about “if Sam’s ok” I will argument more from his point of view.

    Yes, Dean’s whole life seems to be revolving around his brother. Why? Well he had no other to grow up with and was given a huge responsibility. He could’ve either declined to take care of Sam and be a brat or take on that responsibility. Dean chose door number two. After a while it was in his blood, Dean switches often from brother- to father-mode (I could write a whole article about that alone, but that would go too far here). And every one of you who still got parents knows that they’ll always see you as their child (and sometimes treat you like that) no matter how old you get. So Dean not being able to let go of Sam is the fatherly part of him. Me, as a “child” (even if I’m old enough to….ok, let’s skip that), tried often enough to rebel against said parents, as Sam sometimes did. I don’t see anything out of the ordinary up to here.

    I also don’t like to watch my hero’s being superly perfect without any faults. Faults make them human, make me connect with them. Hell, even Simba from “lion king” got his father killed, before he grew up and took his rightful place (maybe not the best example, but still stands…).
    Sam did go with Ruby (one thing this fandom seems to never let go). Was it right? Not in my opinion. Could I understand it? Somehow yes. Dean brought Sam back from the dead because he couldn’t bear to be alone. It was selfish – and he admitted that in 3.1. But in return he left Sam to be exactly that, alone. Why should Sam handle it any better than Dean? Because he left his family already once for Stanford? He didn’t abandon his family. He wanted to go to college – never once did I hear a mention of Sam not wanting to see his family anymore. But the John Winchester “If you go out that door…”-line pushed Sam out for good. Is really anyone out there who can truthfully say if that line were presented to you, you’d stayed home & said “Oh yeah, ok. If you put it that way I see your reasoning…”. An ultimatum by most people is answered with exactly the opposite of what you want. That’s why Sam didn’t stay when Dean presented the exact same line in 4.21. Why did Sam also “abandon” Dean? I assume, since we haven’t heard anything else, that Dean never took a stand in that fight for one party. It doesn’t matter to John but for Sam he was like a father and to not take his side made him probably think that Dean’s on John’s side. I guess he felt abandoned too. Here again is the writing to blame…too much room for interpretation too few answers.
    Back to Ruby. Why didn’t Sam break off with her when Dean returned? At this point he was already an addict. I know some alcoholics…you cannot argue with them. I also read that Sam could’ve stayed with Bobby. Could but didn’t. From the interaction between Bobby and the boys I can safely say that Bobby is a Dean-girl. He has deeper and longer conversation with Dean than he has ever with Sam. And Bobby also admitted that Dean is his favorite. I just think that Bobby was too grief stricken himself to really try to hold Sam back and so was Sam. Maybe Bobby reminded him too much of the time he and Dean had there…again too much room for speculation. This is only one example! Sorry if my reasoning is all over the place and not that well thought through like i.e. Tim the enchancer. English is not my native language.
    All I’m trying to say is that if you hate Sam nothing I did write up till now or anyone else for that matter is gonna change your opinion. But if you try and not only look at the action commited but the road that led to them you may understand a character better. Look into your own life. Most actions you take have a string of reasons that led to them…only some impulsive.

    So is Sam ok? I would wonder if he were, but again we’re just assuming and that’s my problem I have with season 7 so far. I can see that Dean is not ok! It is emphasized in each and every episode. But with Sam, I see nothing. He’s the poster boy of ok. And I cannot believe it. After the build up from season 6 about the wall coming down I get one heavy conversation in a warehouse and everything is fine after that? If a trauma was resolved that easily we wouldn’t need mental health institutes. Sam is portrayed as this super hero, that I mentioned above and that I don’t want to see. Of course I don’t expect the writers to leave him a drooling vegetable. But being perfectly ok from one episode to another is not dealing, it’s sweeping under the rug. By the time they may or may not pick up that storyline again, it’s momentum is gonna be lost. I don’t see why they couldn’t have to storylines parallel written? Each fandom has to wait for half a year until their favorite is picked up …and the other supposedly dropped, when they could’ve dealt with both characters at the same time. But that only my opinion and I am no writer.

    Reply

    1. It seems to me, to answer your initial question, that a huge part of this fandom is not capable of discussing the show without making it a Sam vs. Dean debate. It’s sad, actually. 😥

       Reply

       1. [quote]It seems to me, to answer your initial question, that a huge part of this fandom is not capable of discussing the show without making it a Sam vs. Dean debate. It’s sad, actually. :cry:[/quote]
          I don’t think it’s a huge part of fandom, but it’s a very persistent part. Pretty much any article that focuses on Sam is going to end up attracting a certain type of comments — the ones we’ve all read over and over, ad nauseum.

          It’s up to the rest of us to steer the discussion back to the original topic and bring fresh ideas to the discussion — or to just hush and follow along — which is what I’ll do now. 😆

          Reply

          1. I’ve tried to bring balanced comments to the discussion, trying to explain from my point of view the positive aspects of the characters, without preferring one over the other…

             …but, well, as you say, the [i]persistence [/i] of some fans is definitely there, occasionally appearing to be verging on the militant, not allowing another perspective.

             I hope you’re right that it’s not a huge part. It seems to be the loudest, though 😉 .
             Cheers, Jas

             Reply

       2. “I’ve never seen Dean as useless”
          Me neither, but he’s been w/o a uniquely all of his own and independent of Sam’s connection to the myth-arc and big storyline of a show that’s theme is the supernatural for 5 of the six and half seasons that the show has been on the air. And the fraction of S5 that we thought had finally given that to him, was ret-conned away by the writers at the end of that season. A large protion of this fandom is still very unhappy with that. If some choose to see that as Sam vs Dean, I’d have to disagree. One can view anything about the show as Sam vs Dean, if one wants to-even the thought that Sam is getting short-changed by the writing, or we never get to see Sam’s POV, but we ALWAYS get to see Dean’s…So take your pick of where/when the Dean vs Sam started here. To me, it became more of a debate predominantly about the writing that arose from the title of the article-and I honestly did not see that as a bad thing, but this is why *I* post here so infrequently because some make others feel that if there isn’t agreement and utter pleasantenss and everything isn’t perfectly PC, then it wasn’t a good discussion. I felt there was some very good discussion and debate here, and I would love it if someone from the show had read it. By it’s very nature, it can often be uncomfortable and disconcerting to consider ideas and thoughts that oppose one’s own, but sometimes that’s how we grow. I kind of kept being drawn back here, which is how I could tell it was good-at least to me.

          Reply

          1. You are totally right, Shelby.
             Everything could be turned into a Sam vs. Dean…but does it always have to?
             I don’t have have problem with different opinion’s only with how it is sometimes presented.
             I get that everyone wants to speak for his beloved character and it is fine with me if one has good arguments and examples. But I’m mostly shocked into silence by the amount of pure hate some ppl seem to have against a fictional character (even more so when this hate is broadcasted to the actual actor).
             Actually this was only my third or fourth comment (if I counted correctly) in months (not only on this site but in total).
             Anyway, I am sorry if I implied that every comment here is a Dean vs. Sam. On the contrary. Some had very valued points with whom I agree totally. Only the heated one made me shake my head.

             Reply

          2. I don’t think all complaints are Sam v. Dean. To me, Sam v. Dean arise when fans of one character begrudge the other character any airtime, plot, exploration, etc. That is different, IMO, than a legitimate complaint about the writing, story, etc.

             Yes, I have been complaining about the lack of Sam POV. However, I don’t begrudge the writers giving us Dean’s POV; I just want Sam’s POV as well. That’s the difference.

             Granted, I don’t like Dean’s story right now, but that b/c I think the writing is bad. I’m not saying the writers shouldn’t explore Dean’s emotions. I’m fine w/that. But I also want to see Sam’s POV.

             Reply

             1. [quote]I don’t think all complaints are Sam v. Dean. To me, Sam v. Dean arise when fans of one character begrudge the other character any airtime, plot, exploration, etc. That is different, IMO, than a legitimate complaint about the writing, story, etc.

                Yes, I have been complaining about the lack of Sam POV. However, I don’t begrudge the writers giving us Dean’s POV; I just want Sam’s POV as well. That’s the difference.

                Granted, I don’t like Dean’s story right now, but that b/c I think the writing is bad. I’m not saying the writers shouldn’t explore Dean’s emotions. I’m fine w/that. But I also want to see Sam’s POV.[/quote]

                Ditto I dont begrudge Dean any sl.
                I am just trying to understand right now what they are doing with Sam and their thinking behind it? . It is such a empty follow up to such a massive trauma .

             2. Empty is the right word. They may as well have left the Hell Wall standing for all they’ve done w/its collapse.

                So far, the whole Hell Wall scenario has been pointless and has done nothing to serve the character!

54. You know everyone, as heated as some comments maybe, I think the overall discussion has been great here. I know a few people have taken offense here and there to what has been said, but I had suspected that this inquiry would be a hot button topic. Even though this was intended to be a season seven issue, other seasons do have to be explored to get to the root of the problem.

    Sam vs. Dean is difficult when examining the plight of one brother because the series is about both of them and their often turbulent relationship. In this particular discussion it’s been especially hard to avoid. The only rule I ask to be followed is not to knock down Sam for the sake of building up Dean and vice versa. I really haven’t seen that happen. Here’s an extreme example. “Sam sucks because the show is all about Saint Dean.”

    I don’t want anyone to feel they can’t post here. I’d like to think it’s a forum that anyone is welcome, but I do also understand some sites aren’t for everyone. All opinions matter here. I love seeing them all. In this case there have been a lot of strong opinions. That’s okay. However, if anyone thinks that a comment has violated our standards of “be respectful”, just hit that “report to administrator” option or send me a message through “Contact us.” Thank you.

    Reply

    1. I appreciate this site, and I’m sure I’m not alone. I may not agree with everyone’s post, but discussion is always interesting. We have a saying in French: Ça fait sortir le méchant. It just means it’s good to vent once in a while. I like to hear what others have to say. And as in life if things get too heated, I will just turn away and ignore it. Does that make me a turtle?

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55. This is an old post but I just discovered it and felt the need to add something after reading none of the responses so this may (or not) have been said already but I have noticed a distinct lack of character from Sam lately, and when watching how to win friends and influence monsters when I saw Sam praying I told my friend “he’s praying for some freaking character this season”. I love Sam, (and Dean) but why do I feel as though Dean is sucking up the story line?

    Before the season began a lot of people were worried because they thought Dean wouldn’t have a plot; that it would be all about Sam and Sam’s broken wall, and poor Sam, and it was, for a grand total of two episodes, and the rest? All about Dean and his angst. Not that it isn’t great, I love both brothers with equal passion but I just wish they (the writers) didn’t have to sacrifice one brother’s story for the other (which is what it’s been feeling like so far this season). Or maybe it’s just because they don’t have the budget to get Pellegrino back???

    We’ve (maybe) been offered one glimpse into Sam’s head since episode two, during the Mentalists when Dean finds Sam in the cafe and for a minute or two Sam just sits there gaping at his bro as though wondering if he’s real or not, and it’s only when the waiter addresses Dean directly does Sam snap out of it and the two have a conversation. Now I’ve read many reviews for this episode and some said that because Sam didn’t do the whole hand rubbing this isn’t real thing that he did not think it was a hell-ucination but what if the opposite is true, what if he just missed his brother and hell-ucination or not he didn’t care, that maybe it was just nice to have Dean there. After all no one knows what happened to Sam in those 10 days the brothers were apart, maybe some of it was spent with NOTDean?

    All I know is that if the writers are trying to blindside us with an “OMG Sam is still crazy” wallop to the head then they are doing a good job, maybe too good because all that I see when I watch is Dean and Sam is starting to feel more like a cardboard cutout.

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