Let’s Speculate: Should Sam and Dean Even Exist?
It’s time to put on our metaphysical hats and we have Bardicvoice to thank for it! In my recap of “Appointment In Samarra” I very briefly touched on the point that the brothers have been knocking down dominoes ever since John made his demon deal for Dean’s life in “In My Time of Dying.†Well, I couldn’t have been more wrong. In her review of the episode Bardicvoice took it further. She postulated that the original demon deal went all the way back to Mary bargaining for John’s life in “In The Beginning.†Ultimately, Sam and Dean should have never existed.
First, before reading this speculative piece, I HIGHLY suggest checking out Bardicvoice’s review. She has her entire thought process laid out in awesome detail (and dizzying at points) under the “You’re An Affront To The Universe, And You Cause Disruption On A Global Scale†section. I’m going to include a few excerpts here to enhance the discussion, but what I’m doing doesn’t do what she wrote justice.
First there’s the notion that the angels and demons all started this by manipulating the “natural order†themselves and bringing about the apocalypse. Azazel started it by contacting Lucifer and finding the “special child†needed to start the apocalypse. He’s the one that pushed Mary into making that deal by killing John. Of course, why were John and Mary even brought together in the first place? Bardicvoice mentions what cupid said in “My Bloody Valentine,†that bringing together John and Mary was a very high priority upstairs. Sam and Dean had to be born.
If that’s true, then what would have happened if Mary didn’t make the deal and John stayed dead? Would Sam and Dean not have existed? At this point, Samuel and Deanna were already killed. I don’t know, I also remember Castiel’s words “All roads lead to the same destination.†Mary could have hooked up with someone else and had kids that way. Still, without John’s bloodline, they wouldn’t have been the ideal vessels for Michael and Lucifer. So what’s Mary’s significance? Could it be her hunting bloodline? Could Samuel have also played a role in her being involved? The angels certainly didn’t count on her defiant personality that was passed onto Dean and Sam, thus allowing them resist using the free will of man. It sounds like John and Mary’s pairing, which happened before the deal, was the true first twist against the natural order.
Speaking of the free will of man, Bardic brings that up too. “This posits that God understood and could foresee the continuation of the dispute between Michael and Lucifer, and did nothing to impose any different outcome than the one the brother angels pursued because of their own characters, personalities, perceptions, and beliefs. The wild card was the very human free will that ultimately derailed that deliberately engineered apocalypse: Dean’s steadfast commitment to his brother and his human refusal to yield to Michael and fate, combined with Sam’s choice to save the world and redeem his earlier bad decisions by making himself a trap for Lucifer. The irony of that in the context of this entire discussion, of course, would be that, if I’m right, neither Dean nor Sam would have existed as part of the natural order in the first place. If Lucifer, Michael, and their angelic and demonic minions hadn’t deliberately tried to bring about the end, they wouldn’t have brought into being and shaped the very two men who spiked their plans and changed the whole world game.â€
After what Tessa and Death both said in the last episode, it is true that Sam and Dean’s entire lives have been laced with chaos and sadness. This was determined for them long before they were even born. It’s mind-blowing now how Sam figured out in “Song Remains The Same†that was the ultimate solution, Mary leave John and they never be born. How ironic that was probably the right answer to fixing the universe! Would it have really fixed things though, or would the angels, demons, or whatever forces found another way? Did Sam and Dean have to exist to correct an imbalance in the order?
Bardicvoice brought a nice little twist into that thought pattern. “Mind you, I think both God and Death may enjoy the Winchesters precisely because they are so out of pattern and unique. They may be exhausting and somewhat irritating for Death to deal with because cleaning up after them requires constant effort to match their constant disruption of the fabric of existence, but they also afford marvelous opportunities to relieve the boredom and ennui of otherwise repetitive and predictable nature, and their peculiar position and abilities may provide unexpected leverage for God and Death to subtly make things happen in despite of the plans of angels, demons, andothers who want to control humanity.â€
Considering God (supposedly) came to earth posing as a prophet to record the Gospel of Sam and Dean Winchester, I’d say that she’s onto something there. They likely weren’t supposed to exist, but they certainly have brought something to the universe. Even now, Death sees them as “useful.†It’s my assumption as soon as they stop being useful, God or Death will take care of it.
So, what do you think? To be or not to be for Sam and Dean? John and Mary? Does anyone think that Samuel has a role in this as well, which might be one reason Mary was chosen? You think we need a freaking episode now in which Sam and Dean see what happens to the universe if they weren’t born? What do you think it would look like? Is your head exploding yet? Hey, we need something to do after eating too much food and getting one too many pairs of socks for Christmas.
GREAT Article, Alice – I’ve been fascinated by this notion ever since I read Bardicvoice’s review, and what I’m wondering is how does all the people Dean and Sam have saved fit into the natural order? Are the people who are now alive because Dean and Sam were born more dominoes knocked down by the ripple effect their very existence causes, or are they dominoes that are being set back upright – that is, is the disruption Sam and Dean cause to the natural order actually being offset by their correction of the natural order in saving people who would otherwise have been killed by unnatural things? If so, that would indeed by “useful”.
Thanks again for bringing up this topic here, I think this is one of the most intriguing ideas put forth by the show in a long time.
Yeah, Alice, my head is exploding! 😮
Whether they were meant to be born or not is up to bigger brains than mine to determine. I’m just eternally grateful that they were and that I can follow them disrupting their natural order and defying fate.
What about all the innocents that have been saved by them and their disruptions? I think God (Chuck) would approve. 😉
I absolutely agree. And once he gets a chance to really consider what Death said to him, Dean’s gonna have a handful to ponder. All those times that they were brought back and how those events changed the world around them. That’s one big mess to mop up. But, I’m so happy to have the mess.
This is off topic, but this article has planted a concerning idea in my head about how they could possibly end the series. (Which I irrationally hope never happens)
Remember the ep of Buffy when she wakes up to find that she’s in a mental ward and has been for years & that it’s all been a really bad nightmare?…yea, my head is going there. I would hope and pray that TPTB aren’t not so wicked as to ever try that on us…but I really wouldn’t put it past them.
A snap of God’s fingers and suddenly none of it has ever happened. All the people that were saved are gone. All the people that were lost are saved. Or worse yet, there is no supernatural. No demons, ghosts, or monsters. No hunters. Ordinary people, living ordinary lives in an unextraordinary world. SCARY! We’re left with Chuck sitting behind a desk with a big friggin’ eraser.
Sorry so off topic…but this is what you’ve done to me. 🙁
If I may…physics postulates that wherever there is the possibility of more than one thing happening, that somewhere and somehow it does happen. Thus, infinity. This is the whole alternate universe theory that fans of Star Trek: The Next Generation may be familiar with in the episode where Worf is returning from a bathaleth (?) tournament and finds himself jumping from one possible universe to another. Richard Bach wrote an interesting book, “One,” based on this concept as well. For the more scientifically-minded, review the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Where do all the other electrons go when we’re able to nail down one to this time and space? Physics says an alternate universe. The point of all this is, that if this is the case then every possible permutation of supernatural speculations has happened, is happening, and will happen. So, choose your universe wisely!
Boy, this is interesting. Awesome, awesome speculation.
I don’t even know where to start. You know what, I’ll think about this for a while. 🙂
Thank you for this. Maybe someone should point this out on a convention or something. 🙂
If you think demons and angels shouldn’t be bringing people back, and shouldn’t be interfering with the natural order, then they shouldn’t be killing people either. If they weren’t interfering, then John wouldn’t have died. Maybe John and Mary would have met or maybe they wouldn’t have, but there’s a good chance that Dean and Sam would be alive and well – living non-hunter lives – if YED had minded his own business.
Yes, Dean and Sam should have never existed. But they exist, because of free will.
Micheal cast Lucifer down. Azazel contacted Lucifer. Mary made a deal with Azazel. These are all acts of free will.
BUT at the same time, each of these choices were bound to happen. For example, Mary made that deal, because at that time, living without John and her parents was a decision she couldn’t make. She just couldn’t NOT make that deal. Just like Micheal couldn’t be stopped from casting Lucifer down and Azazel’s actions were also unavoidable.
What does this mean? Everything that has happened in the past, every choice there was made, was inevitable. Thus the existence of Sam and Dean is, inevitable. And yet, free will is the very origin of their existance. This seems contradictory, but I hope it makes sense.
So, Sam and Dean should have never existed, but Sam and Dean being born was inevitable. This is the best I can come up with. 🙂 After reading this over and over again, I’m starting to lose it. Seriously, I’m done.
cd28 is correct: it all started, not with Mary’s deal, but with the YED taking over Gramps. He then killed John, and that set up the whole sad bunch of deals and deaths. You could then take it back even further, to when the YED gets Mary’s ‘scent’ at her friend’s house. She would probably have been there somehow with or without help from a certain time traveler.
I think that Mary Campbell and John Winchester were meant to meet and create two sons that would seemingly be very important. And come hell or high water, demons or angels, that was going to happen.
The YED killed John, knowing that Mary saw John as a way of getting out of the ‘Campbell Family Business’ (I had to go there 😀 , but it isn’t as cool as the WSB). I also think that he had every intention of killing Mary, knowing that John would then turn to hunting to avenge her death, thus making hunters of Dean and Sam. Because we know that is why Brady killed Jessica, to bring Sam back into the ‘Winchester Family Business’.
…and we go around and around.
So, Alice, to answer your question, yes one way or another, Dean and Sam Wincester would have existed, and be exactly right where they are now, pawns in the game between good and evil.
It is a wonderful life, huh? 😉
I read over Bardic’s review and I think it’s an intriguing question to ponder. For the most part, the storyline of SPN has centered around the moment of death deferred. I remember, when I watched “In the Beginning,” thinking that it was a “Terminator” type set up, where the loop-de-loop of time gets all mashed up and progress hinges on anachronistic decisions, with the Impala being the most important item in that loop, i.e. John buys it per Dean’s advice.
As for God, I go back to the old concept of God as seeing everything at once – all the possibilities (or au’s in the sci-fi universe) and not directing but just seeing it all happen as one total event, rather than in a linear fashion, as we experience time. God is outside of time – so I’m leaning toward the idea that Sam and Dean don’t exist, in some version or dimension, and that we are seeing one version of the Sam/Dean story, the interesting version, the one that “God” has decided to take note of.
It does make me wonder if the end of this story is built into the question though? Does the story end when the natural order is restored? If so, how does that natural order become restored?
I thought that Samuel made a comment to Dean about Dean not being the only one to make a deal. Or perhaps it was a demon who said…..However ever I heard it (and now I’ll have to rewatch the episodes to see if I can find it – how tragic – GRIN) I got the impression that deals have been made all through the bloodlines. Perhaps if that is true, you could go all the way back to Cain and Abel? What if the deals and dominoes started back then?
Great food for thought Alice. 🙂
This really isn’t fair. I have a hangover you could donate to science. The car is frozen solid. there’s a billion things I haven’t done yet and the tinselly event horizen is rushing up to meet me and now you hit me with this. Just thinking about thinking about this stuff makes my hair hurt.
Best I can come up with … It’s like the Appointment In Samarra story, you end up bringing about the very thing you were trying to avoid because of whatever it was that you did in order to avoid it. Or something.
I blame God. By chucking freewill into the mix He derails the whole destiny thang. Also, it’s Jesus’s fault I’ve got no money and a sore head … Ho, ho, ho, indeed. Sadist. ( Anyone who points out I could have used afore mentioned freewill thingy to stop before I ran out of cash/sobriety is just being A Pesky Smug Git, and Santa hates Pesky Smug Gits. So think on’t. ) 😉
Fantastic! I did feel my head would explode.
I think Death and God are pretty bored after so long an existance. Dean and Sam are an amusing diversion! I also think of Lucifer’s words to Dean: “I told you this would happen…” I think the angels have some link to farseeing, but God and Death are the two who are truly omniscient. Dean and Sam are always throwing off the plan!
I think the one thing that you have to remember when you begin speculating is that the “true vessel” line comes from John’s family. And for Luci(fer) and Michael they needed “true vessels” not just meatsuits.
Now, assuming that John was the only male to carry on that line and didn’t have any brother’s (I figure we would have heard something about that by now) then it only goes to say that one of the two angels or their co-horts would have made sure that throughout the families existence there would be an “heir” for them to use when the time came.
In the episode in question “In the Beginning” Cas sends Dean back in time to learn that Mary made a deal and in doing so HOPES that Dean could kill Azazel before it goes down, therefore changing his history. Hopes though, not to be misconstrued with anything other than divine intervention because him and Dean are friends, because her deal was meant to be made. Its what starts the whole thing off.
Now, baring Hollywood Angels and their nasty way’s of changing the rules and poofing in to make the story go their way and disrupting said “natural order” anyway – Remember that Mary had already stated once before (in another episode where both went back in time) that it was to late for her to leave John, she was already pregnant with Dean. This means that, oh my, they’ve already been fooling around and more than likely our little Mary is pregnant even at this episode (end of it she’s already showing which is why I assume this).
I figure right about there Fate threw their hands up in the air said “@#$! it” let there be life and fertility and BAM we have our Sammy now too.
A bigger question though is this:
Which Winchester is going to procreate to carry on said line? Sam or Dean? Will there need to be a continuation of that line? Did they just make the bible irrelevant with thwarting the Apocalypse? If so, then how many other gospels are being written out there and will they ever come into play within the SPN world? And if Death will reap God, the supposedly super-player in the world, doesn’t that actually make Death God?
Ouch – head hurts – to many questions – Life was more simple in Season 1 don’t you think? It was kill the monsters, find Dad, make fun of Sam. LMAO!
Merry Christmas peoples!
Merry Christmas to all my best friends. 😀
Hope Santa brings everybody, everything they asked for. 😀
(all I wished for, was for Sam to get his soul back, and Santa (or Sera) took care of that for me.) 😀
my dear, dmakdavis, LOL, Season One was alot less complicated, wasn’t it. But I think that to Dean, making fun of Sam would have been first, then the monsters and then finding Dad. 😆 😆
In ‘Song Remains the Same’, while they are hiding out in the cabin, Dean and Sam tell Mary to leave John, she tells them that she can’t because she is pregnant.
Sam and Dean were just meant to be. 😀
I read Bradicvoice review and it´s just great. It covers everything!
I thought that because everyting is so boring to god and death because they know everyting that has happend and will happen (natural order) they enjoy watching two guys who don´t fallow the natural order.
It would fit the family was condamed after Mary made the 1st. deal (at least 1st deal we know of).
At the end of “In the Beginning” (that was fun to type) Dean tells Cas that he couldn’t stop Mary from making the deal, and Cas replys that there was no avoiding destiny. In the same vein, Dean still wound up having to kill the little girl in “Appointment In Samarra,” because that was destiny, too. So, no matter how many different paths you take or how many realities you try to create, Sam and Dean would exist. To quote Hamlet:
“There’s a divinity that shapes our ends,
Rough-hew them how we will.”
Well Alice I put on my Metaphysical Hat and contemplated all the possibilities and now my brain hurts.
Should Sam and Dean have existed?
Well without the interference of the Demons, Angels and Cupid, then I would have to say probably not.
Mary may still of married and had two sons named Sam and Dean, but they wouldn’t be the same two young men that stand before us today.
I do believe this all started with the Angels and Demons and their manipulation of the ‘natural order’ in order to start the apocalypse.
Demons –
Azazel assisting Lucifer in his plans to finding a special child to become his true vessel once he was freed.
Angels –
Instead of putting a stop to the apocalypse they assist by having Cupid match up John and Mary, so Michael will have his true vessel. Remember Cupid had said John and Mary didn’t even like each other until they interfered.
Demons –
Azazel kills Mary’s parents and John, forcing her to make a deal to resurrect John.
Demons and Angels –
The birth of Dean and Sam.
Demons –
Azazel coming to collect on his part of the deal, ten years later, by infecting Sam with his blood. Mary in-turn dies because she tried to stop Azazel, reneging on her part of the deal.
This leading to John becoming a hunter and teaching his boys to be hunters too.
And the rest is history.
Now there is many questions that this and any scenario leads me with.
I feel like the Riddler…â€Too Many Questionsâ€
First why did it have to be John and Mary’s bloodline?
Is their bloodline linked to someone of great importance to God or to the Bible, like Cain and Able, an apostles or disciples?
Is it because the two vessels needed to be brothers?
Now if it always had to be Sam and Dean, because they were the true vessels for Michael and Lucifer, then why were Max, Andy, Ava and Jake brought into this? And why Rose, who was part of a whole new generation of special children?
It would appear Azazel didn’t know it had to be John and Mary’s bloodline, so why didn’t Lucifer tell Azazel?
Did Lucifer not know at the time either?
Ok I’m going to stop now and take an aspirin.
This is an interesting question and I love the theories. As for my two cents, Yes, I think Dean and Sam definitely should exist. While reading all this the one thought that kept coming back to me was when Dean and Sam went to Heaven in ‘Dark Side of the Moon’ and met up with Ash. Ash was describing what heaven is all about and that some few special people exist in their own heavens together, meaning soul mates – and we all know that he is talking about Dean and Sam being soul mates. So, Dean and Sam’s souls were always meant to be together, as brothers, no matter where. So, Yes, I think Dean and Sam should exist.
I loved the question Karen posed. Why did it have to be John and Mary’s bloodline. Dean and Sam could have been brothers (soul mates) in another family, but all the manipulations to get them to John and Mary’s bloodline. Why? Well, we know the importance of Mary’s bloodline, with the long hunter background. So, if their destiny was always to be hunters, I can understand the importance of Dean and Sam falling into the Campbell bloodline.
But what is the importance of John’s bloodline? Yea, they talked about Cain and Abel, but we all eventually land into Cain and Abel’s bloodline. Is that the only reason for having the Winchester bloodline mix with the Campbell bloodline? I can’t think that that would be the only reason. I would love for this to be explored a little bit. Because I always feel that although Dean and Sam have a lot of their mother’s characteristics, they are also majorly Winchester. I would love to see the Winchester bloodline explored a little more, and why the need to mix Winchester with Campbell.
It really does go around & around! Where did the manipulations of the natural order & all the deal-making actually start? This could be an endless search.
I too want to see the Winchester family bloodline explored, perhaps in season seven (pretty please!)
Which came first, the chicken or the egg, Supernatural style? Were Sam and Dean born to bring balance to the force by fulfilling their ‘destinies’ or were their destinies fulfilled by them not fulfilling their ‘destiny’?
Are they meant to exist? Heaven and hell moved um… heaven and hell to ensure it so I’d say most definitely. I mean, not only were they born, but they also survived. To me, that means they were/are/are still alive for a purpose. I find it quite strange that two kids (and that’s what they were) managed to survived all manner of nasties so consistently. There have been so many times and so many different ways the boys could have died. Hell, they should be dead, many times over at this stage! Apart from their dangerous hunter lifestyle, they’ve upped the ante by taking on the ‘buttercups’ of heaven and hell. They’ve each been plucked from heaven and hell, something that would traditionally mean the end for you, and yet, they still live. No-one is that good, or that lucky. They’re alive for a purpose.
Thing is, even now, with their ‘destinies’ fulfilled they are still alive. Why? Is there another reason for them to be alive? Death certainly implied so. He just pulled Sam out of hell, there has to be a reason for that (apart from wanting to shut Dean up!) What else are these guys destined to do?
There is one thing that intrigues me. In The Song Remains the Same, knowing what she knew, Mary, despite being pregnant with Dean at the time, could still have left John but she didn’t. John and Mary were compelled to stay together. We saw in Dark Side of the Moon that they were fighting and John had moved out prior to Sam reaching 6 months, presumably the cracks in their relationship started while Mary was pregnant. Did this come about because, once Mary was pregnant with Sam, they had fulfilled their roles and so their relationship no longer had to be ‘held’ together?
I have to admit, the timing of this split between John and Mary bugs me. Why did John leave? Was it because once Sam and Dean had been conceived they had done what was required of them and so could go their own ways? Did John suspect Sam wasn’t ‘his’ child? Given the timing, it’s safe to assume the friction started after Sam had been conceived so I feel it had to have been a factor.
Also, why/when/how did they get back together? Was it John’s destiny to see Mary die, become a hunter and so raise his boys in that way? Who dictated that destiny?
Also, by taking the Campbells into account, who was YED’s real target, Samuel, Mary or John? Was Mary picked because of her relationship with John or vice versa? The fact she’s a hunter is also a little strange. Given the relationship between demons and hunters, surely the last person YED wanted a close relationship with would have been a hunter. Did he choose the offspring of a hunter as an ‘Up Yours’ to other hunters or was the hunter bloodline picked because it is purer, more worthy etc than any old Joe Soaps?
It’s strange, the more I think about it, the more I wonder who the actual original target was. Are Sam and Dean the mere byproducts of the original chosen (John and Mary) or were John and Mary put together in order to be the parents of the original chosen (Sam and Dean). Chicken or the egg…..
We really need to know more about the Winchester side of the family, though. I mean, why John? Was he just a convenient baby-maker or is there more to him? Is there also hunting in his blood, somewhere back along the generations? He was in Vietnam and he certainly had an aptitude for hunting so maybe.
I don’t think it started with YED possessing Samuel. I think this whole thing was set in motion long before that. I got the impression YED had been making these 10 year deals for a while. I find it a little hard to believe that everything went so right (or wrong!!) for YED his first time out. Maybe the 1983 kids were the first batch of ‘special children’ that worked?
Who knows, maybe it is all just dust in the wind but I think free will is an illusion, people. We like to think we have it but……
Honestly, when I think of things like this, fate, destiny etc I’m reminded of that final scene in Men in Black when that huge alien just picks up the planet and uses it as a marble. Maybe in the context of the entire universe, that’s how insignificant we, and our worries, are.
So to answer your questions, Alice. I really don’t know…
I’m sorry; these are just ramblings of an insane woman. (You don’t have to think about this sort of shit with Eastenders.) I’m off out to build a snowman.