Thanks Percy :) I think a lot of people might like this idea.

EW just published a new interview with Jeremy Carver. In it this was asked and answered.

Poor Sam had so much trust that these visions were from God, and now he’s stuck in the cage with the real manipulator. Is this experience going to be the thing that finally causes Sam to lose faith in God?
That’s an excellent question and it’s something definitely that we will continue to have Sam sort of dwell on. I would think if this experience is going to alter Sam in any way, it might move him a little bit more from optimist to realist in the coming weeks. That’s best understood by what unfolds.

I am really unhappy about this statement. All I see is we will be getting the 1,762 repeat of "Sam must not have ANY thoughts that Dean doesn't agree with. If Dean doesn't believe in something then Sam must not either." What's next? Dean is making googly eyes at an entity that thinks eating people's souls is a good thing. Sam wants to save people and Dean isn't on board. Are we going to discover that Amara is right to eat souls and leave people as conscienceless killers? Will saving humans be the wrong thing to do because DEAN doesn't approve. I was really enjoying this season. We were getting Sam POV and he was shown as returning to the original values of the show. Now all he is is a sucker who mustn't think for himself. And that makes me really unhappy.

Added to this is the strong indications that Sam is being written out of an episode AGAIN. I suppose it could be at his request, although I hope this doesn't mean something is wrong. But I know full well that the writers will NEVER try to balance the scales again when it comes to Sam time or Sam POV and that sucks! All in all this has not been a happy week in spoilers for me.

I am sorry Percy, I don't understand the connection between the quote and Sam's decisions always being given the most negative spin possible by the show. I mean I can't argue with that. And I didn't like the implications of that article really. But why is it a problem that they mention Adam and Michael in passing?

It meant that I copied the wrong part of the article. THIS was what I meant to copy

Poor Sam had so much trust that these visions were from God, and now he’s stuck in the cage with the real manipulator. Is this experience going to be the thing that finally causes Sam to lose faith in God?
That’s an excellent question and it’s something definitely that we will continue to have Sam sort of dwell on. I would think if this experience is going to alter Sam in any way, it might move him a little bit more from optimist to realist in the coming weeks. That’s best understood by what unfolds.

The idea that Dean's non-belief is "realistic" while Sam's belief was not just seems to be more of the same old, same old Dean=Right, Sam=Wrong.

I agree with you percysowner.

I am going to ask very tentatively & very quietly how did this statement ----

Poor Sam had so much trust that these visions were from God, and now he’s stuck in the cage with the real manipulator. Is this experience going to be the thing that finally causes Sam to lose faith in God?
That’s an excellent question and it’s something definitely that we will continue to have Sam sort of dwell on. I would think if this experience is going to alter Sam in any way, it might move him a little bit more from optimist to realist in the coming weeks. That’s best understood by what unfolds.

Turn into part of your converstion Percy

The idea that Dean's non-belief is "realistic" while Sam's belief was not just seems to be more of the same old, same old Dean=Right, Sam=Wrong.

I thought it just meant that Sam may loose his optimisim and look at life more realalisticly. This is bound to happen when you are constantly disappointed by your believes


I hope you girls don't mind me commenting I will just go back to the other discussion pge --- scuttle off queit as a mouse LOL

Jen,I am not a site administrator, but,
You are free to voice your opinions here.maybe we will disagree .so what ,that is what we do sometimes in real life.I do not know about the girls but as a guy I do not mind you disagreeing.
This is because only Sam has been constantly disappointed by his beliefs recently.
Sam believes a demon he is told believing her is wrong and it turns out to be wrong..rather the results are against tham.
Dean believes in a demon and he is told it is not good but it was mostly right.If you bring up MOC...it is all on Dean's impatience.
Sam is critical of his Dad well he is so wrong and has to agree with Dean's point of view...later in life.
Dean now is heavily critical of his dad now but we will see if he comes to a more favourable view of his dad.
Not as articulate as Percy but this is what I see.
This is not real life but a show in which we have vampires , ghouls, demons angels and god.
the god who while has not come in front of them...has put them on an airplane, has his scribe take them on a trip to the botanical garden...now sam hoping for the signs being from god is not realistic.Things that Sam things ,mulls over and then decides never do turn out to be right.That is why swan song is so very important because that is an exception.

Hi everybody i kinda understand this new thread I was not quite sure if it was my kinda thread. I try to look into the story like you guys and I try to understand the writers and what POV means ex.
But I think I still see the show as a viewer I can't see it as a article writer. I had Percy try and give me tips on how to do this ( I think it was Percy ) Thank you But I still ain't always seeing it.
What Im saying is -------- and please understand ---------- I thought this link may have been to professional ??
For me you all sound so well knowledgeable and I didn't won't to butt in with my question - answer.
So I thought I should just stay on the other threads

As a card-carrying member of the skeptics club, I have to say that I'm very skeptical of the Cas/Luci possession story. I posted that on the ep review thread and probably shouldn't have because it might upset Misha/Cas fans. I love Misha and Cas, although of late Cas has been an often pathetic figure. There are a couple of levels on which the story bothers me: first, it potentially shifts what has always been a Sam story to Cas and Dean; and second, I really didn't like Misha's take on Lucy. I'm hoping it will grow on me, or else that this story runs its course quickly.

samandean10 wrote:

As a card-carrying member of the skeptics club, I have to say that I'm very skeptical of the Cas/Luci possession story. I posted that on the ep review thread and probably shouldn't have because it might upset Misha/Cas fans. I love Misha and Cas, although of late Cas has been an often pathetic figure. There are a couple of levels on which the story bothers me: first, it potentially shifts what has always been a Sam story to Cas and Dean; and second, I really didn't like Misha's take on Lucy. I'm hoping it will grow on me, or else that this story runs its course quickly.

I don't like the Cas/Lucifer story line either Samdean It does take away the whole first 5 seasons from Sam I can see how they tried to do it, with the last couple of eps that Cas was in they made him look like a down and out angel with GREAT emotional problems and no home to go too, then that very short conversation with Bookeeper angel and Amara. I think Cas wont's to feel important again and even a HERO. It really doesn't fit. First off angels arn't suppose to feel emotions/pride/jealousy are they ??

And what does that say about Sam when he opened his heart to saving the world. And saying NO this time are we suppose to think Sam is selfish ???
And the short moments we saw of Cas being Lucifer wher not good I feel Misha was trying to hard He looked like a X with god and a leviathen, Misha should have worked out his own way of portraying Lucifer not Sam's or Mark Pelagrino's. I just hope it gets better or we don't see to much of it

samandean10 wrote:

As a card-carrying member of the skeptics club, I have to say that I'm very skeptical of the Cas/Luci possession story. I posted that on the ep review thread and probably shouldn't have because it might upset Misha/Cas fans. I love Misha and Cas, although of late Cas has been an often pathetic figure. There are a couple of levels on which the story bothers me: first, it potentially shifts what has always been a Sam story to Cas and Dean; and second, I really didn't like Misha's take on Lucy. I'm hoping it will grow on me, or else that this story runs its course quickly.

I too was unimpressed by Misha's take on Lucifer. I'm hoping that it was a result of it being his first go at the role and that he will settle in. I also think that it's because Lucifer is being written more like Hallucifer than Original Recipe Lucifer. ORL was calm and methodical. He "burned cold" to quote the angel himself. This Lucifer doesn't have that calm. It may be because we so much more of Hallucifer than ORL, but I think the character itself is being written for a broader characterization, whereas Jared's and season 5 Lucifer were more complex and subtle.

Thank you for creating this thread Percy. I had been hugely enjoying S11 but all the recent spoilers for the second half of the season have got me worried. Not to mention a tad grumpy.
This week's episode only added to those concerns with the introduction of the Castiel/Lucifer storyline. Right now there are various reasons this storyline bothers me a lot. But it's early days yet so I'm hoping that all my misgivings will prove groundless.

I do not think you can give Castiel the Lucifer sl without it effecting Sam,s mytharc from season 4 and 5. And Sam staying strong means little if then the writers have Castiel say yes for the flimsiest of reasons.

They wanted to give Castiel relevance and clearly they thought this was a way of doing it .

i dont like it, i hate it, the Casifer stuff is just another cannon bust from what i see. im sorry but no no just no. *let's make another shocking revelation that they the fans wont see coming, have Lucifer possessing Cas, yeah, that'll work! * anything that Sam gets Cas can do better right. *lets have the brothers be clueless for 8 episodes that wings is not wings (again NO!) hopefully this lasts 1 episode or 2 if they dont figure out that wings is not wings within an episode or 2, i seriously ? if they're treating Sam and Dean like idiot on purpose or not? this story is ridiculous. it undoes season 5, if they do another story that undoes another season, i fear they can have the whole series can be undone, copy previously done stories, put a spin on it and call it something different--come out with a different outcome

As for me, I'm from a sceptic club too, but luckily, not all my apprehenstions came true. And I'm glad that Sam/Luci sl went to Cas. Sam/Luci sl seemed finished after season 5, and the worst they could do is to resume it in the same way. I'm glad that didn't happen. In fact I'm in two minds just now. On one hand, there is a logic of the story, and it seems to go in one direction, but but now I feel apprehensive that they don't bother with any logic anymore. And I feel aprehensive about their revision of that sl, because I feel they can diminish the significance of what Sam did in SS. I feel that during last couple of seasons they unsuccessfuly tried to draw the attention from Sam to Dean, but they were unable to overshadow Sam/Devil storyline, even the Darkness looked lame in comparison with the Devil, so they decided to revisit the story. And I think there is an opportunity that story will go this way: Dean will "ice Devil", defeat Darkness, save Cas, constantly saving his Samsel-in-Distress along the way, and be the only centre of the story, making Sam's sacrifice look unnecessary, and his true heroism lame. I feel they are trying to shatter everything that was built during the first 7 seasons. Moreover it contradicts the logic of the story, but now I don't think they bother with any logic anymore. So, I feel that they can show that hope, faith, self-sacrifice, strive to save all people taking one's own decisions is wrong and the only right thing is worship Dean and they call it "being a realist".
I guess I sound distinctly negative, but it is what this page is for, right?

Jen wrote:

Hi everybody i kinda understand this new thread I was not quite sure if it was my kinda thread. I try to look into the story like you guys and I try to understand the writers and what POV means ex.
But I think I still see the show as a viewer I can't see it as a article writer. I had Percy try and give me tips on how to do this ( I think it was Percy ) Thank you But I still ain't always seeing it.
What Im saying is -------- and please understand ---------- I thought this link may have been to professional ??
For me you all sound so well knowledgeable and I didn't won't to butt in with my question - answer.
So I thought I should just stay on the other threads

Jen you are welcome here, as is everyone. This is a thread for people who are worried about potential storylines or unhappy with current ones. If you are happy, that's great. There are many others who are also happy. We're here so we can vent and not upset those people who are enjoying the season.

I thought the season was going great up until episode 9; now I have some concerns about some of the directions/choices they are making, as well as my usual complaints about canon. I say this because the same thing happened in Season 9; things started off very promising, then kind of fell apart after midseason.

1) Sam's decision to go to the cage - many of the visions were so obvious that they were from Lucifer (I could never fool you, Sam) that Sam had to realize that as well, didn't he? Or was he blinded so much by wanting to fix things that he ignored this? I just thought the whole setup/premise for this was rather weak.

2) Sam's trust in Rowena; you knew she was gonna screw everyone over and she's double crossed them before; what made Sam, and Crowley for that matter, believe she wouldn't this time?

3) Dean and Amara; are they sure where they're going with this or making it up as they go along? Is this supposed to be some sort of attraction between the two, or is Amara like Dean's kryptonite?

4) Castiel as Lucifer? We only got a short glimpse of this but I wasn't sold on what I saw so far. Misha appears to be doing an impression of Mark Pellegrino playing Lucifer. Hasn't worked for me but I'll give it more time.

5) In S5, a big deal was made about archangels requiring special vessels and now we have Lucifer occupying an empty vessel already occupied by another angel? As Kripke said in S4, angels need to possess human vessels; Castiel is not human, he's an angel; how can he give consent? I hate when they start screwing with canon like this. No issues with expanding on canon, just don't flip it on it's head.

6) I think revisiting the whole Lucifer story line stands to diminish what happened in Season 5, with Sam jumping in the cage. They really need to tread carefully with this.

On the plus side, Crowley is back to being Crowley, Dean is much more likable this season and Sam is starting to get back to his old self. And, we had the outstanding Baby episode which I hope some people attached to the show get submitted for Emmy consideration.

Thanks for creating this space for skeptic-r-us. I was not going to comment but after my day being completely botched by my backed up sewer, plumbers and $$$, plus my car crapping out, well I feel like venting.
You know, I was ok in season 6 when Balthazar said that there were no rules anymore. Unfortunately there are no rules to the no rules rule. I would have been fine if the Angel/meat suit permission thing was a rule that could be broken, but now it seems that is more than a rule, it's an actual physical impossibility. Ok, fine, Reapers can go rogue now, or could they always, whatever. I'm ok with changing the "rules" but altering the physical limitations is bothersome.
My real beef, I suppose, is of all the open items and story lines and people they know, why open up something that was closed forever? Luci was gone for good, there should have been no way to let him out. It feels more like the writers are trying to come up with something cooler than the year before, but sorry, you should not be able to top the devil, and they should stop trying. There are plenty of storylines that don't need to be apocalyptic.
The reasons for Sam seeking Luci's help were weak, the reason for Cas saying 'yes' were weak. The reason for Amara to be...whatever she is are...? The purpose of Rowena and Cole are... I don't even know. The story is too large and the solution will likely be convenient.
And that leads to my other issue, the introduction of characters and stories that have no reason to not have been introduced before. Rowena pops up out of nowhere, but shouldn't she have arrived when Luci was free the first time? The first five years should have set the stage and a good story teller would ask if the new story contradicted the old one, and if it did, they should explain why.
I was actually pleasantly surprised by Misha's Lucifer. Young Sam was unnecessary. Rowena was doomed from the start. But Why couldn't Crowley tell it was Lucifer. He's always always always been able to tell which angel was which just by looking. Now, nothing.
I know I will wait and see and hope for the best, but these little things are starting to build up and I've been getting some "feelings" of dread.
There, I feel better now. Thanks