I was a little too tall
Could've used a few pounds
Tight pants points hardly reknown
She was a black haired beauty with big dark eyes
And points all her own sitting way up high
Way up firm and high

Out past the cornfields where the woods got heavy
Out in the back seat of my '60 Chevy
Workin' on mysteries without any clues…

Okay everybody, join in!  Workin’ on our Night Moves…

You know that I couldn’t get that song out of my head last night. Dancing and singing along to it while getting ready for bed, just like I did when it first came out in the late 70’s when I was a kid growing up in the Detroit area. Bob Seger was our hometown boy so that was a very big song in my childhood. Yes, there were a lot of night moves in the Motor City for sure. Writer Robbie Thompson is from the Detroit area too, so he knows what that song means.

Wow. What can I say?  I’m still having numerous happy fan girl fits over how great “Baby” was.  How brilliant is the idea to do the whole episode from the point of view inside those four doors?  The whole episode felt like we were right there for the whole adventure, as if we were an exclusive member of the family.  It was an exciting and emotional ride.  There's a certain comfort that comes with the Impala.  She’s just as much our rock and our comfort as Sam and Dean’s.  I love the Men of Letters bunker, don’t get me wrong, but adventures should always include Baby.  Baby breathes life and personality and is truly an SPN Family home. 

But the episode thrilled my inner critic as well.  It’s one of the best episodes of the series, and definitely the best episode of the post Kripke era. “Baby” was more than an episode. It was a grand and bold achievement in filmmaking. Every single scene  pushed the envelope and took us into territory we had never seen before, but it still managed to stick with the core premise, family.  It reminded me why I fell in love with “Supernatural.” Two brothers, a classic car, and the open road. There was humor, camaraderie, heart to heart talks, MOTW action, and in the end three battered and bloodied heroes that saved the day drive off in the distance to the next adventure. That is "Supernatural" in a nutshell.

“Baby” could have easily failed, but luckily “Supernatural” has the right minds that are willing to take on a creative challenge.  Robbie Thompson wrote an epic script, but the script isn’t what sells the episode. It’s the entire production. The acting and editing was extraordinary.  There wasn’t a musical score in this episode, adding to the realistic feel of two guys on a road trip because it took away the melodrama, leaving only the classic rock in the background to enhance parts of the story.  When the brothers talked, the conversations were earnest and real. 

09

But the real coup came from director Thomas J. Wright, who took shooting scenes to whole new level. How so much story could be captured in the confines of the indoor car space is beyond me, but it was an epic achievement. That limitation opened up extraordinary possibilities. The opening car wash scene is brilliant. While I smile at the visual of Dean washing his car in shorts, this is Baby’s POV. She doesn’t notice Sam and Dean in gratuitous ways. No, she just enjoys the suds and the water from the hose as both her companions take care of her and talk shop. It’s a family thing, and she is every bit a Winchester as Sam and Dean.

Wright with his creative vision went places that I didn’t think was even possible. Because of the limited POV we got longer scenes.   That also added to the realism of the situation, because we weren’t cutting back and forth to the B plot in real life.  The fight sequences were long and that let us see more of the schematics.  Surprisingly, that just made the sequences more entertaining.  I loved watching what Dean went through when dealing with a severed head and body of a monster that won't quit. When watching the whole thing play out, it's really quite madcap. 

Misha Collins was absolutely great in this episode and he literally "phoned it in" (credit for that joke goes to Misha himself). The framing was ideal!  Castiel talked lore through the phone, which was sitting on the dash while we watched through the back window Dean have with his encounter with the monster Deputy. While Dean struggled in the background from a surprise attack,  the main focus falls Castiel and the phone. It's hilarious!  It drastically changed the way a fight sequence is done. Oh, but it is also the perfect setup for a Dean Winchester zinger. "I did shoot the Deputy." Nice shoutout to "Jus In Bello”!

But it didn’t end there.  It just kept spiraling.  The head ended up on the hood of the car pressed against the windshield, staring and hissing at Dean.  No problem, one click of the windshield wipers takes care of that!  But thanks to brainstorming with Castiel, the head can’t stay on the ground near the body.  So let the trusty green cooler have some action too!  Dean not only finds a place to put the head, but also gets a nice picture to send to Castiel.  Yes, that’s a lot to take in for one scene, and it’s all perfect.

05

Think about it, exactly how do you shoot fight scenes inside a 67 Chevy? I have no idea how they pulled it off, but those were easily two of the best fight sequences we’ve ever gotten. The choreography was inspired and no doubt it involved a lot of perfect timing and coordination. I found it really smart to hide a lot of the violence by showing Dean punch his attackers with the seat obscuring the view. Again, it's the way Baby sees things, with less brutality but she still gets what's happening behind the scenes.  Ditto with the earlier scene with Sam and his female guest.  We get to imagine what happened behind that seat because that’s the way Baby sees it.  I know that doesn’t help fan girls who wish for shirtless scenes, but this wasn’t the episode for that.  

Brotherly Bonding

“Baby” was a huge and long overdue reminder of what we love about this show, and a lot of is was accomplished through the one thing that works the most, the brotherly bond.   Often as fans we speculate what sort of talk happens between the brothers in those long road trips. This gave us the perfect idea. Did anyone notice that the brothers didn’t arrive for the case until 20 minutes after the episode started?   Have we ever gotten to see the process of what happens when getting there?  We’re usually left to wonder how they travelled across country so fast.  The music, the eating in the car, the banter?  Do you remember the days of Sam and Dean on a road trip, having fun, laughing, being honest with one another? I had completely forgotten until I broke out my DVDs of season two earlier this summer. 

“Baby” proved once and for all it isn’t all doom and melodrama for these brothers. They still take little pit stops to questionable places for R&R. They still pick up diner waitresses and get laid in the back of the Impala. They still needle one other for their exploits through the use of classic rock. These brothers may have been through a lot, but they aren’t dead.

The only thing about the “Night Moves” scene that would have been more perfect is if we saw them singing more of the song together.  I won’t quibble though for I’m doing back flips with excitement over what I got.  I can’t believe that Sam had never used the back seat of the Impala for “personal release” before, or at least in the company of Dean. He was actually afraid Dean would get mad, but no, big bro went another way.  This is the taunting and fun loving big brother we adore, breaking out the appropriate cassette tape to both show his pride and to give baby bro a hard time. I love that because of his exploits “Sammy” has graduated to “Samuel.”   It’s Dean’s way of announcing baby brother is a man now. It’s funny too, because he got back the same correction, “Sam.”  While Dean is pontificating the words of the greatest writer in rock (amen to the choice of Mr. Seger), Sam gets the snappy comeback. 

Sam (singing along with the song): Out in the backseat of my brother’s 67 Chevy.  “You started it.” 
Together: “Working on our Night Moves…” Thud, happy convulsions, me. 

“God helps those who help themselves.” For one, thank you Mr. Thompson for reminding the world that Dean does indeed read.  It’s an interesting use of the proverb since it’s supposed to be a statement of self-initiative.  “John” responded to Sam saying that they’ve turned out okay, “That was on you boys, you did that, not me.”  The message was clear, only Sam and Dean can stop The Darkness and Sam shouldn’t be waiting for signs or any kind of help.  It is rather compelling evidence that its Lucifer, isn’t it?  The “Who are you?” question means Sam knows something is up. Also, kudos again to Mr. Wright for the gradual close ups on the faces of Sam and “John” as they went back and forth.  It really added something spooky, proving this isn't a normal thing.

10

Did Sam have a dream or a vision?  One could easily argue that Lucifer is reaching out to Sam in his dreams.  He’s done it before.  Or maybe it’s Michael, of course I’m saying that just to make the twist less predictable. Or maybe it's both.  Or maybe its God as Sam hopes.  But we know that when any version of John Winchester shows up telling Sam what he wants to hear, that ain’t John Winchester. (Welcome back to SPN Matt Cohen!) The visions (or dreams, whatever we want to call it) mean that Sam is indeed getting help from the great beyond.  

I loved the talk that happened afterward, when the brothers were settled into their bench seat beds for the evening. No doubt there have been hundreds of nights like that. The things that they have talked about. No, I can't imagine talking about dreams and visions are always the topic of discussion, but I like that it was a chance for them both to come clean with each other.  I’m not surprised that Sam didn’t talk about being infected until now.  Judging by his reaction to the dream, he was still trying to reconcile what happened in his own mind.

It's been a while since we've seen both of them address at length (and I LOVED that it was a long conversation) fears and feelings about the current situation. Sam is clearly turning to faith while Dean believes they are alone in their mission to fix things. It's a call back to the epic journey of season two. It feels oh so right that Baby is there in the middle of it.  Also, how interesting is it that Dean dreams the same dream about his Dad every so often and Sam dreams about Mary? Sam didn't know Mary. It explains while he feels so connected even though he never grew up with her.

This whole experience has Sam soul searching and the Impala chats in this episode  really reinforced that. Maybe he was still buzzing over finally getting some after three years (??????) but is Sam truly wanting something more than the one night stand? How adorable was it that he offered his phone number to Piper?  He truly isn’t a one night stand kind of guy, even if he knew what she wanted.  This isn’t unlike Dean at the end of season five.  Sam is hitting a certain age and has to think, “Is this all there is?”  It’s a stark contrast to the “I love hunting” speech just a few episodes back (by the same writer nonetheless).  I think he still plans to hunt, but maybe there is more to life than just hanging with your brother.  He has needs.  He did go back to the diner later when they were penny hunting and talk to the waitress during the first brilliant fight sequence in the car (was it the same one or someone else?  I couldn’t tell).    

You have to wonder about Dean too. I'm sure it felt really good for him to get out and “make mistakes” so to speak at another dive bar, but even he was hoping to find that specific companion. He was looking for his "Heather." It did get me wondering, what would it be like if Sam and Dean both tried to take on relationships while living the hunting life? Ask me a couple of years ago I would have never wanted to see that. But now, I'm wondering if it's a worthwhile experiment.  I’d like to see them have more.  No, I'm not talking about domestic bliss with a Lisa or Amelia. No, I'm talking about having normal companions that pop into the bunker once in a while. After all, Netflix only goes so far.  A big twist to the dynamic really couldn’t hurt.  But they have to save the world first.  Again.

The Not So Usual Monster Hunt

In all this gushing, I have even touched upon the heart of the story, which is why we even had a MOTW.  I always love it when a MOTW story ties into the overall arc of the season and this one did perfectly.  Suddenly a dormant creature, who’s name I didn’t get but Ghoulpire works, is trying to recruit an army because The Darkness is coming.  It’s the same thing John in the vision said to Sam.  Why are the monsters as scared as the angels and demons?  What is it about these people that we don’t know?  That’s why I wish each episode would give us answers.  I’ll be very disappointed if this fear of the Darkness gets addressed maybe in the midseason finale and then not again until episode 16 or 17.  But hey, that’s a quibble I’ll save for next week.  Right now, my bliss is still riding too high.  

08

Yep, not a scene was out of place, not even the valet driver and her friend that decided to take a joy ride with Baby.  It strangely ended up serving a purpose when the purse was lost in the back seat, a purse that just happened to have the copper pennies they needed.  Do you think it was a twist of fate, a higher power intervening, or heck maybe even Baby herself?  Whatever it was, it ended up saving Dean’s life, and technically Sam’s as well.   It also makes you wonder how many stories Baby could tell if she could talk. How many times has a valet taken her for a joyride?  Does she find such escapades thrilling, or they are what they are? How many of those backseat trysts have happened in her lifetime? What other adventures has she experienced when Sam and Dean weren't around, or even when they were sleeping in the Winchester motel? At 48 years old and counting, I'm sure there's a lot that she’s seen that no one will ever know.  

Best Quotes and Other Touches

I laughed when Dean was spraying the car with water and then the next scene it’s raining.  “Figures,” he said.  Yes, I always wash my car before it rains too! 

Dean: Where’s the beer?
Sam: Underneath the smoothies.
Dean: Where’s the rest of the beer?

“Time heals all wounds, especially good times.”   (Put that on a t-shirt!) 

Sam: Even Swazye wouldn’t come to this place.
Dean: First off, don’t use Swazye’s name in vain. 

“Oh, mistakes were made.” 

“Don’t ‘Night Moves’ me.” 

“Digging into the lore. Is that what the kids are calling it these days?”

“Is everything a Bob Seger song to you?”

“When has death ever stopped a Winchester?”

“Welcome to the Winchester Motel.  We don’t have cable, but we do have room service.”  (Hands Sam a beer).  

Sam: Goodnight Jerk.
Dean: Goodnight Bitch.
(Yes, that was the sound of millions of fangirls shrilling.) 

“What’s a Netflix?”  Or how about Castiel not processing how Orange can be the new Black?  Dean’s comment on binging was too dead on.  

Dean:  Let’s go home.
Sam:  You know what? (touches the dash).  We are home.  

“Baby” falls into “instant classic” territory, which is  truly a rare thing for this show anymore.  This is a “Mystery Spot.” This is “A Very Supernatural Christmas.”  This is a “Changing Channels.” This is a “The French Mistake.” Overall grade, an A+. I do not give that grade lightly. I haven’t given that grade in years.   As a matter of fact, the last one I gave was season eight’s “Sacrifice.”  That was around the same time (slightly after) when Sam last got laid.  Sam shouldn’t have gone that long and we shouldn’t have either.  We have needs!  Thank you, thank you SPN for this very precious gift.  

panel management

Comments  

rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2015-10-29 22:03
Alice, my friend, you hit it right on the head! This was perfection and surely needed by all. I loved every aspect of this episode. Since the highest grade is A+, then this episode deserves that grade. Kudos to the talented cast, crew, writer and amazing director who left me wanting more. Also, to you Alice for writing down exactly what I was thinking... Thank you!!!
Alice
# Alice 2015-10-29 22:44
It's so great to see you post on here again! How have you been? I follow you on out there in other circles, but it's been a while for sure since I've said Hello!

I couldn't believe what I saw. It was my show again. I have been struggling so much over the last few years, trying to remember why I fell in love with this show. I like the show, but the little things like the brotherly humor, the light moments, actually having sex with women, and just capturing the spirit of the road trip has slowly disappeared from the formula. I was practically in tears to see it all back. Yep, I'm clinging to this high as long as possible until next week's lame MOTW filler episode ruins it all for me again.
Mallena
# Mallena 2015-10-29 22:30
You really didn't like last week's episode, did you? You are forgetting it existed and renaming this episode 11.03. Anyhoo, watching this episode last night I had to keep pausing it to jump around the room and squee. It was so amazing, words fail me. Good thing you and other talented writers can do these reviews. Some people have said that Dean is dismissing Sam's visions because he is mad at God. I see it as more that Dean doesn't want to go there again after the trauma that was a big part of season 7. What if they are coming from Lucifer? That would scare me a lot. The return of Lucy and Sam's visions would be great drama, though.
Alice
# Alice 2015-10-29 22:49
I did strike that episode from my mind! It made life easier that way. "LA LA LA LA..." :) Anyway, thanks for pointing that out. I fixed it. I swear I proofread the article over and over again but never checked the title! It's always something.

Your theory about Dean dismissing the visions is as good as I can come up with. Yet he did have one, whether he wants to admit it or not! I wonder if he'll start having more and then tell Sam. I was impressed that Sam came clean this time. I guess to incidents was enough to rattle him. I think it's probably Lucifer and if that's the case he won't leave Sam alone. Sammy is definitely in for a bumpy ride going forward.
Mallena
# Mallena 2015-10-29 23:29
Poor sweet Sammy. He can have a hunter girlfriend that visits the bunker from time to time. He deserves it and he has never seemed to be comfortable with one nighters like Dean. Lucifer better not break him again, my heart can't take it.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 23:38
Alice, I agree with every word of your review. But one thing that particularly struck me was this statement:

Quote:
Do you remember the days of Sam and Dean on a road trip, having fun, laughing, being honest with one another? I had completely forgotten until I broke out my DVDs of season two earlier this summer.


I think there are lots of reasons why the show lately hasn't seemed as good as the earlier seasons, but for me one big reason is the bunker. I love the idea of the MOL, and the endless possibilities for stories it provides. And when the boys first moved into the bunker I found it so touching that they finally had a home (although Sam was reluctant to regard it as such). I also know that logistically there were good reasons for the bunker because there was finally a standing set, and fewer crappy motel rooms to set up for filming. But to me the show has lost something important by giving the brothers a home base. That whole vibe of the endless road trip accompanied by the classic rock sound track, which set the show apart from almost anything else on TV, has largely vanished. It was different when Bobby's house was kind of a home base, because the boys still spent the majority of their time on the road, cooped up together in Baby or in motel rooms. It was that time together in and around the impala, and in those kitschy motels that propelled most of the fun and meaningful and emotional brotherly conversations that have been in such short supply lately. Sometimes I think the bunker is the reason why the writers have fallen into the rut of secrets, fights, and unresolved issues between Sam and Dean- the brothers can just retire to their rooms and avoid each other. Even when the brothers hit the road for a case, they very rarely have scenes set in motels, and even the scenes in Baby have often been quite brief. I've been really missing the road trip aspect of the show for awhile, and this episode accentuated what has been lost. Maybe 11 seasons on the road would have gotten boring, but I feel like it might be time to blow up the bunker. OK, that might be a little drastic. :) But I would really love to see the boys spend a bit more time on the road and in Baby. After all, that was Kripke's original vision: two brothers in a muscle car, on a never-ending road trip across America, all set to classic rock.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-30 10:37
Fanfiction idea: Destroy the bunker :D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-30 23:27
I'd read that!
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-31 15:51
You may one day read it ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-30 00:27
I loved this episode too. About the "something more" chat. They are realistic, they have accepted the life and how it is likely to end for them, but Sam especially needs to feel that tiniest speck of hope that there will be more than one night stands and bloody road trips in their life someday. I think that's why it comes up every few years. I too wondered if there wasn't some intervention, divine or otherwise, that put the hairpin and purse conveniently within reach when they were needed. Actually it had to be to get a woman to get out of a car without her purse!! It was so great to get the brothers back I missed so much. I truly hope the the positive reaction and good ratings for this episode is noted by the PTB. It was a special episode and kudos are well deserved. I know our actors will never be acknowledged by the Emmy's but the sheer brilliance and innovations in that episode deserves some kind of award. Thanks Alice.
Sarah
# Sarah 2015-10-30 02:09
Alice, I totally agree! This was an incredible episode, and yes, I was squealing the whole time. And I am so, so happy they brought Bob Seger back! I don't know if they've had a Bob Seger song since season 9! (Which of course, forever paired "Famous Final Scene" with Kevin's death in my mind. Thank you, show.) I like how they included Cass too. It's one of those little things in the episode, but we've had so many episodes over the years where Cass is around one episode and gone the next simply because he hasn't answered his phone in a while, that it was nice that there was a legitimate, believable reason why he wasn't in an episode that was supposed to focus on Sam and Dean so soon after fighting with the Winchesters. At the same time, the script also recognized that Cass was part of the team and part of the family. I also liked that they continued this season's tradition of "saving people". They killed the alpha, but they saved everyone else. I cheered when the wereghoul Dean had been fighting woke up as a human! The "I did shoot the deputy" joke was also fantastic, because while it was a callback to Jus in Bello (for the fans), it was also a reference to the Eric Clapton song. It was absolutely something a classic rock fan like Dean would say in that moment.
Jen
# Jen 2015-10-30 02:19
Hi Guys not much to say since it has already been perfectly said. As to the purse/knife/hai rpin - The Darkness said she would look after Dean ?? Is that right. Anyway thats it,
I"m still on cloud nine and loving it. Oh must mention I'm the New occasional HUNTER that visits the bunker for some Sam lovin' I got the job last wk LOL
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-10-30 02:56
Alice, it was good wasn't it. It had a MOTW, humorous touches, brotherly moments, perfectly in canon and character and pushed the myth arc forward in a non 'I have an anvil and I'm going to beat you to death with it' and showed that baby has always and always will look after her boys so is just as responsible for how they turned out as John and themselves.

We should have an episode like this for number 200. It wasn't like Locke wasn't out before number 200 so could have inspired something similar to give Baby not only her due but remind us why we all fell in love with the show.

It was an instant classic and after last week and a lot of durge we've had in the past couple of seasons it was the episode that everyone wanted and what the audience deserved.
Russ
# Russ 2015-10-30 02:57
Just finished my second viewing.

Agree with you on everything, Alice. A+ across the board.

Real conversations, and no forced broments.

Intuitive and engaging camera angles.

They also managed to omit two of my greatest hates of the post-Kripke Supernatural, and really helped keep me captivated:

1) No ridiculous sets and background lighting. The entire episode felt and looked natural. I felt like I was right there.
2) No score. Something that has been misused, with certain tracks over-used, since the start of season 6. And it's only gotten worse. Was great being able to hear the brother converse without ill-used sounds taking you out of the scene. These guys have great chemistry, and even with half-hearted dialogue, can deliver a far more engaging scene than some crappy synth sounds attached to some violins.

.. and to cap it all off, we got vintage Cas.

Dean: "Thanks Cas! Good work. Way to come off the bench."
Cas: "What bench?"


I expect to watch this a couple more times before the weekend is over.

To paraphrase a sentiment from the 200th episode: Others have their version of Supernatural. This version was mine.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-30 14:20
This is right up there with SWAN SONG for me. :):):):):):)
jane
# jane 2015-10-30 05:36
I just loved it, your review was perfect. I am in love with the show again.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2015-10-30 08:24
This was so fanfreakingtast ic! The story, the brotherly scenes (bitch, jerk, thud :p), the beautiful car! This episode merits the A+ that you gave it and then some. Thank you Robbie Thompson, and Thomas Wright, it was perfection. And, OMG, I was so happy to see Matt Cohen. And I'm of the ones that thinks it may have been Lucifer, he knows Sam so well. I won't say anymore, you've said it all Alice. I'm just so happy! :)
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-30 10:36
Quote:
It reminded me why I fell in love with “Supernatural.” Two brothers, a classic car, and the open road
Exactly my thoughts. It reminded me of the Kripke seasons; reminding me the joy and interest I felt when I started watching.

Quote:
I know that doesn’t help fan girls who wish for shirtless scenes
Mmmm try shirtless scenes with veiny Sam with yellow eyes. :3

Quote:
It strangely ended up serving a purpose when the purse was lost in the back seat, a purse that just happened to have the copper pennies they needed. Do you think it was a twist of fate, a higher power intervening, or heck maybe even Baby herself? Whatever it was, it ended up saving Dean’s life, and technically Sam’s as well
Not sure if a twist of fate or a higher power. I'm torn between the two.

I was kind of hoping Sam would be a ghoulpire for a bit. We've had Dean be a monster for a bit so why not Sam? :D I wasn't hugely disappointed though. The episode was that good!
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-30 14:17
Soulless Sam & TBD Sam was not enough "monster" for you, I take it????
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-30 14:27
Soulless Sam? Pfft that pales utterly in comparison to yellow eyed Sam.

And TBH means the veined Sam right? He didn't even go rabid, plus it didn't last long.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-30 14:39
Remind me of Y.E.S., I only remember they flickered once when Dean looked at him.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-30 15:27
There wasn't much since it was a short scene. Basically he shoved Dean to the wall using his powers then told Dean "This is what I'm going to become, this is what I wanna become, and there's nothing you can do about it" before trying to strangle him to death. Go watch the scene again x)
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-30 15:45
Thanks.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 16:44
It wasn't truly Y.E.S. tho as that's what Dean saw in his "yellow fever" induced state. It was cool as Hell but not really Sam.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-30 18:52
Well no, just a hallucination. But I'd say its what Sam would be like had he become corrupted and accepted the lure of his demon blood. Ava did, becoming power mad and killing without concern in the end. Jake had only begun to accept his powers when his eyes flashed yellow, but had he lived those powers would of corrupted him too.

It may not have been Sam there, but it was a representation of a full demon Sam.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-30 18:28
Cheryl reminded me that baby Sam's eyes flashed yellow very briefly when YED dripped blood in his mouth. Many of us missed that at the time.
FridaB
# FridaB 2015-10-30 13:05
Great episode. I got to hear Sam call Baby "home" which has been on my wish list forever. I'm getting that Sam is finding his faith again and Dean has his motivation, I am hoping that they are not being tricked. I have difficulty with God placing things and notifying them of impending danger as that would assume there is pre-destination (of a sort) and I don't really like that option. The Darkness putting a pin or penny's where they will be needed is also an issue. I don't believe it is either Luci or Mike (and I hope it isn't) so maybe another angel, as a demon would not have that kind of power IMO. It's also an option that The Boys are connecting with a "higher" power because of who THEY are and not because whoever or whatever is trying to contact them. However, the hints are vague, like revealing too much would be troublesome. This could be just the way the writers want to reveal the solutions, or it could be intentional and have a deeper meaning.

I too have felt the bunker has changed things dramatically in the show and miss the road trips and motels so much. But, I also miss Bobby and his cranky wisdom, and so many other aspects and characters. But we move on, it's up to the writers to make the bunker a little more interesting and not just by having random monsters crash and trash the place.

This Ep gets an A from me also, it moved quickly even with the long conversations. The action scenes were brilliant, the perspective was nearly lifelike, not just a voyeur Impala, but an active participant in her own way.

Great review Alice. Thank You
Bevie
# Bevie 2015-10-30 13:29
Thought I died and went to heaven! It was everything I've longed for for the last 7 years! Couldn't believe I wasn't asleep and dreaming, but no,
there it was my show again! The one I knew was there all along but hardly ever saw anymore.

Can Robbie write all of the episodes from now on? Please? Thank you all Supernatural people. You did good!

Gobsmacked to see John driving the Impala! Kept thinking this is too good to be true. Anyway, I hope the following episodes don't disappoint.

Only problem was, unable to see Dean in his shorts! Please correct that in the future guys.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-30 14:19
Robbie & Kripke should write all of the episodes. PERIOD. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D
Vince
# Vince 2015-10-31 11:34
It was probably the best thing he's written, but he still has a lot of stinkers on his list. But it does go to show that he can be a good writer, as long as he doesn't have Charlie to obsess about.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-31 17:51
I suppose it depends how you feel about Charlie. The vast majority of fans adored her. And Robbie wrote some excellent (if sometimes controversial) episodes that weren't Charlie episodes. I love that he pushes the envelope and takes chances.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-10-30 16:23
Everyone's opinion is so glowing that I really can't add anything much. I enjoyed the episode for the most part and I thought the concept and the execution were excellent. I do have to say that I was a bit disappointed that Dean didn't say anything about what happened for the last two seasons. As awesome as it is to see them being brothers and having fun and all of those things, it didn't quite feel earned to me because everything was swept under the rug again. No discussion about anything Sam went through with Dean with the MOC and no talk from Dean about being sorry or how it felt to know that he almost killed his brother twice. It was so refreshing to get some POV from Sam and to hear him talking about important things, and yet, Dean didn't say anything about his secret. So does that mean we're supposed to assume that he told Sam already about his bond with Amara? I think my anticipation of the episode and the fact that there feels like an elephant in the room to me regarding everything that's happened, dampened my enthusiasm for their conversation.

I too really want to know why Piper didn't want Sam's number and I wonder how the hell someone as big as Sam could have been in that back seat with her and not even have shown an arm? Come on show, we needed to see shirtless, disheveled, post-sex Sam! I get the feeling that Sam's comments were Jared voice over because I'm betting they filmed that scene when he wasn't there. Bummer.

And lastly, I could have done without watching those two girls riding around for several minutes and instead would have liked for Sam to have been shown in the last fifteen minutes or so before the end of the show. I know it was a plot device to get the purse in there, but it sort of felt like a waste of time to me and the way she peeled out of the parking lot, I thought for sure that Dean was going to be chasing her down, lol. Anyway, instead of two scenes of Dean beating on people and getting beat up (which I had quite enough of the last two seasons), it would have been nice to see he and Sam maybe fighting together from the Impala's point of view. Instead, Sam was sent away and apparently had quite the beat down himself and saved some people as well, but we didn't get to see any of that.

Anyway, all in all, it was fun and unusual and had some fantastic scenes and POV from everybody and we got to see Matt Cohen maybe being Lucifer and just all around really good. :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-31 11:52
Sylvia, after my first viewing of the episode I felt the same as you did on two points:

Quote:
As awesome as it is to see them being brothers and having fun and all of those things, it didn't quite feel earned to me because everything was swept under the rug again.
Like you, I was disappointed that they did not discuss the events of the past two seasons and the resulting huge rifts in their relationship. There will be no better opportunity for that conversation than Baby provided, so I fear it is a conversation we will never hear.

I also agree with you that the episode was very Sam-light towards the end. This was confirmed upon my rewatch of the episode this morning. Sam was barely in the last third of the ep, even if you count the silent images of him flirting with the cashier and running after the impala. This could have been easily rectified by having him participate in the first of the THREE fights Dean was involved in, the one between Dean and the Deputy. Even my Dean girl daughter noticed Sam's absence in the last chunk of the ep. But I have decided to shrug it off (for the most part:)) because the ep was fantastic in every other way, and because this is about the best writing RT has ever done for Sam. RT is an excellent writer, but most of his eps (including Fan Fiction) have been Dean-centric. Sam often had only superficial involvement in the action and his dialogue and interaction with guest stars was often rather generic and meaningless to the plot. At least in this ep, the fantastic scene between Sam and "John" was the single most significant one in the ep. We also got to hear some wonderful Sam POV (a rarity in RT eps) and got to see smart Sam, funny Sam, capable hunter Sam. Would I have preferred that the brothers be equally involved in the episode? You betcha. But after two seasons in which I thought the character was often sidelined and had minimal involvement in much of the story, this episode put a terrific (if too brief) spotlight on his wonderfully complex character. And I also enjoyed so very much that the old Dean is back, and that we are seeing a return to the brotherly relationship of the first few seasons, which has been MIA the last few seasons. If the writers start writing Sam as a supporting character again, as they have done so often the past few seasons, I will definitely be bitching and moaning about it. But I am cautiously optimistic that that will not be the case this year, because it appears that his story line will be as rich and significant as Dean's.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-10-31 13:07
I actually deleted some comments about Robbie Thompson because I didn't want to be too negative, but you stated much better than I did. The fact that Sam had some meaningful dialogue and POV and interaction with other guest stars by himself is a feat for him. RT seems to be very in love with Dean and his car, and it sort of makes Sam's assertion that it is THEIR home not sit too well with me. Even faux-John said, "You're brother's been taking good care of her and you" which is really freakin' annoying when you think that Sam has also gotten her fixed up at least twice during the series when Dean couldn't.

Also, the missed opportunity in the Impala talk scene had me rolling my eyes a bit. I waited and waited for Dean to say something and then when he didn't, I thought, well we still have the rest of the episode, and then Sam disappeared so.....

And I agree 100% that Sam should have been a participant in at least one of those fights. I mean, it was supposed to be a BROTHER episode so showing the brother's fighting together seemed logical to me. Like I said, some missed opportunities that in my opinion would have made the episode an A+++ for me, but a B is better than all of the last two seasons so points for that.
eilf
# eilf 2015-10-31 18:11
Those of us who see how much RT's episodes twist the basic story away from 2 human brothers and towards one fallible younger brother and one superhero in a leather jacket are few and far between now. I think many have just stopped watching, and certainly stopped commenting. But I wanted to let you know I sympathize with your point of view.

It is clear to me that RT's interests are in order of importance:
Dean
Dean's car
Charlie
Dean's problematic brother.

How about we look at Dean's problematic DEAN once in a while?

Since we haven't had any chat about how Dean is supposed to be different from last season - in fact he isn't entirely free of the effects of the mark since he is linked to Amara some way - I find my self watching and waiting for him to fly off the handle at Sam in every interaction. Hence I didn't find this episode all that cuddly.

For example the 'you didn't tell me about your visions' line came across as having a lot of anger behind it. I honestly don't know how it was supposed to come over, especially since Dean is keeping (and has always kept) much more important secrets from Sam. Sam's secrets tend to be about Sam, Dean's secrets tend to be about Sam's survival. But it has long been a show ... and fandom, and reviewer .... trope that a secret is only bad if Sam is keeping it.

Perhaps they intend to finally address some of that this season. Though I highly doubt it. This episode was pretty much what I was expecting it to be and I notice that while Jared really has praised it, it was always backing up Jensen's enthusiasm more than expressing just his own (and I don't doubt Jared's enthusiasm at all), in the meantime Jared, when asked, said that his favorite episodes were later in the season. So maybe?

Overall I was watching this and thinking of the old Smith's song: "You just haven't earned it yet: Baby". Though I know I am in a minority.

On a positive note I like Sam getting laid. Nice to see him getting some affection in his life even if only fleeting. (I also liked the bait and switch of us thinking it would be Dean getting 'Heather').
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-31 18:37
Hi eilf! I was so happy to see your post. I always enjoy reading your comments and I've missed them for these many months. I'm certainly not going to disagree with your thoughts on RT, as I stated in my comment above. Anyway, welcome back! :)
Disgruntled viewer
# Disgruntled viewer 2015-10-31 18:45
I'm of similar opinion with you and don't think that this episode is the best among those we have been shown this season. But certainly it's the best among those which Thomson has written. On more optimistic note I don't think that such serious issues as Dean's actions the last season, or his bound with the Darkness are appropriate in such light and humorous episode. This episode is just a counterpoint to the first two episodes, which defined the arc of the season and is written to alleviate a tension a bit. From esthetic point of view the idea seems to be perfect, including replacing brothers. The first two were Sam-centric, now as a counterpoint it's Dean-centric, and the same idea of saving many is introduced in a lighter, more humorous way. They can't keep that suspence for long without a way for viewers to relax and laugh a little bit.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-31 19:02
Huh, guess I don't sound like disgruntled anymore. The question is how long it will last :D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-31 19:24
I was thinking the same thing after your last few posts. Maybe you should rename yourself "formerly disgruntled former ex-viewer." or FDFEV for short. I hope it lasts a good long time! :D
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-31 19:36
If it lasts till the midseason I guess I'll use your idea :D
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-31 19:40
By the way, what do you think about the nature of Sam's visions? I'm inclined to think that Sam's visions are from God. It would be the most logical explanation.
1. Lucifer was always honest with Sam, why the phrase about deceiving?
2. There was never any particular connection between Lucifer and Sam, Michael and Dean. They were intended to be vessels, nothing more. Lucifer spoke to Sam when he was free, but evidently after he had been released he could speak to anybody he wanted. Nick is a proof. We were never shown any special connection, moreover Michael ended up in Adam's body, does it mean that Michael has many special connections? That sounds ludicrous.
3. Both Michael and Lucifer had been Sam's inmates for so long, that Sam should know them perfectly and should recognize them in any disguise.
4. At present there is more connection betwen Lucifer and Dean, than between Lucifer and Sam. Dean and Lucifer were beares of the same evil. Doesn't everybody think it would be easier for Lucifer to use that connection and to get in touch with Dean in that case?
5. The idea with Lucifer is cliched and predictable and that's why in rather bad taste from literary point of view.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-31 20:54
I started out thinking the vision was God or his agent, because the visions started immediately after Sam prayed to God. Then I thought perhaps it was Lucifer because he had initially appeared to Sam in the guise of a dead loved one, but now I'm back to thinking it is God, or at least someone who is appearing to Sam at God's behest, or at least with his permission. It just doesn't make sense that Lucifer or Michael would be able to, or would even want to, communicate with Sam and Dean. The brothers derailed their grand plan and left them to rot in the pit. Also, the key phrase that other posters have focused on is "John's" statement that he could never fool Sam. Well, Lucifer only really tried to "fool" Sam the once, when he appeared as Jess. Michael never tried to fool him, nor did God. So I like sugarhi's theory that it's Gabriel because he is the only one who can legitimately say that he could never fool Sam. The brothers saw through his masquerade in "Tall Tales", Sam saw through his masquerade not once but twice in Mystery Spot, and again the brothers saw through his subterfuge in Changing Channels. But it will kind of annoy me if it's Gabriel because sure, the brothers have repeatedly come back from the dead, as has Cas , but pretty much every other angel has stayed dead. If Gabriel can return from the dead, will we see Zachariah, Raphael, Uriel, Anna etc? Death should have SOME meaning on SPN. The only way it would make sense is if God engineered it to help the brothers, as when he reassembled Cas. And God's involvement makes perfect sense. Sure, he didn't want to intervene in the apocalypse, but the bits of assistance he gave the brothers ensured that they would be able to avert it. Moreover, the apocalypse would have fried half the planet, but the coming of the D could obliterate everything that God created, and perhaps pose a risk to God himself. So I think the visions are in some way God's doing, but I think that they will inevitably lead the brothers to attempt to communicate with the archangels. Short of God himself, Michael and Lucifer are the best sources of information on how to defeat the D. Also, I just love the idea of that communication! So to make a very long story short, I think God is causing the visions.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-01 05:31
Exactly my thoughts. And one more point. If Sam's visions are caused by Lucifer, how tacky is it? I mean, it would be almost absolute repetition of a scene from season 7, when Sam had hallucinations of Lucifer under disguise of Dean. The authors should be completely out of ideas to fall into that track. RT is not my favourite author not because he writes only Dean-centric episodes, but because he tends to turn SPN into primitive comics with an infallible superhero and his sidekicks, with women born with a sword in their hands and caricatured bad guys, but in general he is a pretty good author and his writing is not trite and hackney and I don't think he is so out of ideas as to repeat episodes from the past seasons without serious changes in interpretation.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-01 07:28
Quote:
his writing is not trite and hackney and I don't think he is so out of ideas as to repeat episodes from the past seasons without serious changes in interpretation.
Yes, but this can be double-edged sword. Exhibit A- Slumber Party, which I hated.:D
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-01 08:09
God... me too! The whole time I was like 'is this really an episode about OZ?' He's not a bad writer by any means, but he does have some tendencies that I find irritating. He tends to write the characters he favors in this ultra unrealistic, can do no wrong way (Charlie, Dean) and then focuses on that character to the exclusion of other characters. These traits undermines Supernatural as a show that is generally grounded in reality despite it's fantastical set up. He also has a fondness it seems for cartoon style fantasy which is also not Supernatural IMO. The man did write for Marvel comics and to me, it shows.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-01 08:39
When those flying monkeys appeared through the doorway at the end, my jaw LITERALLY dropped. It was atrocious in every way.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-01 08:39
The man did write for Marvel comics and to me, it shows.
I haven't known that, and that explains a lot.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-01 16:08
Yes. I read that on Superwiki under "other projects" on his episode page. I do think that the fact that he's written for a major comic label shows how and why some of his stories are so unrealistic sometimes. Charlie turned into the cliche of a comic book heroine and for me, it just didn't work. Occasionally he's not far off from that in his writing for Dean as well.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-01 08:22
Yeah, it was a fine example of comics. I hate it as well, as I also hate what he turned Charlie into after that episode. She had been quite good before, but after that... her sudden turning into superhero was ridiculous and destroyed quite realistic character. I mean in the show there are some strong female characters such as Hellen, Jo, Jody, Donna and Charlie as she used to be in season 7, they all are strong, independent and all their skills are explainable and they are all realistic, but Charlie after LARP and a Real Girl turned into something cartoonish and preposterous.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-31 21:04
Or just viewer.:)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-01 07:09
My philosophy is, why use just one beautifully descriptive word to describe something if instead I can use four words that are confusing and take up precious space on WFB? It may not make much sense, but it is the code I choose to live by. Yes, it is both my philosophy AND my code.:D
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-01 08:28
Me too, I guess that's why we watch SPN, it's their philosophy too. Why to use one exact word to describe something if it's possible to drag it out for 23 episodes? :D
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-01 08:31
and cause heated arguments in the fandom over something which would be evident from the very beginning if they chose the right word? :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-01 08:51
you make an excellent point!
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-31 19:50
Good to see you again :)
eilf
# eilf 2015-10-31 20:58
Hi guys, thanks! I miss you all! I am not really back, I realised that commenting only pisses me off more with the writing and particularly the continuity and storytelling. I have had the exact same problems with the writing of the brothers since beginning of Season 8 and it basically just keeps getting worse.
Yes this was a perfectly ok story and a clever premise and the way it was shot probably should get it nominated for something, I am not saying much against it for innovation.
But for me it is important for the health of the show that the writer who gets the most uncritical reviews shouldn't be entirely allowed away with rewriting show history and shoving important story-points under the rug every time he writes an episode - as he does often and insidiously. For example look at the THEN section of the episode (which is supposed to give us an idea of what the episode is working from story-line wise): God, Impala, Sexy Dean with Impala, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat (oh Sam is equally visible here!), John, sexy Dean with impala, repeat, Sam saying 'this is my fault'. (the order may be off but the number of hero shots of Dean is correct). Frankly that is exactly what the episode gave us so ... yay for the quality of the abstract I guess? ;)

It is irritating and it is disrespectful to Sam as a character and even to any coherence to be seen in Season 10 to dismiss what ACTUALLY happened with this sort of visual shorthand.
But as I said nobody from the show has ever paid any heed to the damage their story-lines do, they write them and then pretend they didn't happen that way. What can you do?
So yeah, if this is a lighthearted blame-free episode then lay OFF with the one-sided blame game. Pick one, writers, you can't have it both ways.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-10-31 21:32
What's horrible for me is that the minute Sam said something about being infected and Dean reacted, I got tense, which I assume was the reaction they were going for. But I wonder if they realize that they've made us actually afraid of Dean's reactions, for Sam's sake I mean. Remember way back when, when Sam could actually say something contrary to Dean's thinking and it was just brother's disagreeing and having their own opinions. Now, I'm wondering it Dean is just going to start blaming and going off and Sam is going to have a load of guilt piled on him and just sit there take it. It's going to take more then one light hearted episode and a some words of remorse from Dean before I don't have that reaction anymore. Going back to being brother's does not equal Sam sitting shot-gun while Dean takes control and makes the rules. When he stops dismissing Sam's opinions and ideas, and starts seeing his brother as an equal, then I might start feeling like we're on the road to recovery.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-31 23:42
Well honestly in my opinion it wasn't a harsh or angry reaction from Dean at all. He seemed mellow and didn't pursue it. I haven't felt the undertone of anger from either brother this year so far. They seem to be working well as a team,
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-11-01 01:32
Hi Leah,

I agree that Dean's reaction was pretty mild. But as I said, watching the show and Sam's reaction to Dean questioning and then confessing, I was tensely waiting for Dean to get angry or start blaming Sam for past transgressions when he realized that Sam hadn't told him about being infected. And unless Dean has told Sam everything that Amara said to him, then it's a bit hypocritical of him to get upset with Sam about not being completely honest. I was speaking personally, because I feel conditioned by the show in the last few seasons to expect a harsh reaction from Dean. You might say that it was the MOC storyline and Dean wasn't himself, but that hasn't always been the case. I know many other Sam girls who feel this way, but I know not everyone does.

As you said, they are working as a team at the moment and I wish as much as anyone that they continue to do so. I just feel like there was no transition to how they got to this place. They jumped from Sam kneeling on the floor waiting for his brother to kill him, to all of the sudden everything's great and we're bantering like it's 2005 without one iota of discussion about any of it. I'm not just talking about Dean apologizing or thanking Sam for saving him, but even Dean maybe having some reaction to the fact that he had just killed a whole bunch of people in a short amount of time. Evil people for sure, but people, not monsters. That's what I thought the conversation they had in the car was going to be about, so I was disappointed that it turned out to be Sam confessing and Dean being disappointed in him and then dismissing his concerns about his visions.

Just my opinion. I know it is not shared by everyone as evidenced by the enthusiastic response to the episode. I still liked many things about it, I just was hoping for more.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-11-01 01:26
Well personally as a Dean fan I have hated how he has been written at times the last few years. However I think the show is TRYING to reset to the guys being on the same page. Trying to have them set blame and guilt aside. Yes Dean made those comments but he wasn't harsh and he didn't seem particularly disappointed. I don't think Dean was dismissive so much as trying to ease Sam's mind about the visions. I'll bet Dean is worried as hell. He is the bossy and hypocritical big brother at times but he was also pretty great too. This to me is a HUGE improvement from the past few years. For both Sam and Dean who both had their bad moments. I know the fans wanted a heart to heart about the pass few years and the recent events with Death but it is just not in character for them to hash things over like that. I think they are on the same page now about moving on, letting go of some of their baggage and taking on the Darkness. I do understand you want more, I do, but I think there was so much to love in this episode.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-01 12:40
I understand sylvia37 completely because nowadays it seems that when it's about Sam's actions it's constant blame even after many years he made them, but when it comes to Dean's actions it is exactly like you said "the show is TRYING to reset to the guys being on the same page. Trying to have them set blame and guilt aside". I'm all for having them set blame and guilt aside, but it should be for both brothers then, not just only for Dean. Sam is repentant again and again, and the characters of the show simply don't allow neither him, nor the viewers to forget about his mistakes, but under Carver Dean never even admitted his. Or when he admitted like it was with Castiel, he got only one reaction like "It's nothing, don't mention that". And for large number of viewers it makes him look very unsympathetic. I wonder why the authors do so, is it intentional, or they simply don't understand what impression they make with a character who is supposed to be a hero.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-11-01 16:16
Well I disagree that Dean hasn't admitted to mistakes. As I always disagree that it's constant Sam blame. However I am just going to try and retain the enjoyment I felt for this episode. :)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-02 05:41
Don't take me wrong, I'm just indicating to what seems to me a well-trodden path, the writers are unwilling to quit. I'm all for the clean slate.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-11-02 09:21
It's very true. I suppose you could say that it's the boy's personalities in that Sam is able to apologize for what he feels is his fault, but Dean has a hard time doing that. It is hard to own up to your mistakes. It's obvious that Dean feels guilt for them, but actually coming out and saying he's sorry to Sam's face without it coming out as angry justification seems beyond him at this point. And I wonder the same thing whether the writers actually see this contradiction and play on it, or if they just don't realize how unsympathetic it makes Dean look to some people. Obviously not everyone feels that way or we wouldn't be having these discussions, lol.

I was just reading on someone's blog about how though she is a Dean girl, she really gets mad at him for being such a frustrating ass at times. And even she gets tense now wondering what his reaction is going to be whenever Sam tells him something he won't like, such as about getting infected. It ain't just us Sam girls.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-02 16:42
Sylvia, I think that you're right that Dean has a harder time apologizing than Sam does, but it's only under Carver that this has arisen to the level of a character flaw. In the Kripke/Gamble era there were a number of times where Dean apologized to Sam. I can think of three just off the top of my head: in S2 he apologized for how he had acted after John's death and he said he was sorry because he knew that Sam, too, had lost his dad; in S5 he gave a very heartfelt apology to Sam encompassing not just how he had treated him over the Lucifer issue, but also how he had been treating him as the kid brother rather than an equal partner; in S7 he apologized, albeit briefly, about the Amy matter. I'm sure there were other occasions. But right from the start of his tenure, Carver brought the brothers back to square one and ignored the emotional growth they had displayed by the end of S5. All this so he could tear down and then "build up" their relationship. Well, he did an awesome job of tearing it down, not too well at building it up. I know most fans (including me) were tired of the awful fighting between the brothers and anxious to see the relationship get back on a more mature and loving footing, but I think it's crazy that JC seemingly intends to do that without having the brothers deal with the horrible events of S9 and 10. And I don't think it needs to be some long, overly emotional talk that consumes half an episode. Just some heartfelt recognition of the damage they've inflicted on each other. A three minute conversation would do the trick! And yes, I think it should include, or even start with, the Gadreel possession, although I know that will never happen. And it should include an acknowledgment that Dean in many ways had placed enormous emotional pressure on Sam regarding his various "failings" and that this pressure was a large part of Sam's determination to save Dean at all costs. I thought Sam gave the perfect opening to that discussion when he talked about how they both had to change, so I thought there would be a follow-up to that discussion in Baby. It would not be breaking new ground to have the brothers address their issues. The writers did it very capably in the first 6 or so seasons without having the show bog down in chick flick moments. The Dean from those seasons would be totally wrecked that he had tried on two separate occasions to kill his little brother, and he would have expressed that to Sam. The Sam from those seasons would have displayed more anguish over the tough choices he was making in S 10, and the consequences that have ensued. So while I'm thrilled that the brothers' relationship seems to be "reset" to something resembling the earlier seasons, and I hope it continues until the end of the series, I'm kind of ticked off that so much has been left unsaid between Sam and Dean. You can't just chalk it up to "manly men" not be comfortable with their feelings, because that was never an issue in the earlier seasons.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-11-02 17:08
Exactly. I don't need some long drawn out conversation full of angst. That isn't their style. But even for them, it doesn't seem normal to me that they're just not even going to discuss what went down and just go back to road tripping and ganking monsters. And I don't think he's doing Dean's character any favors by having him basically ignore what happened. I'm not just talking about what he did to Sam but everything. I know he angsted a lot last season and maybe that's why they aren't dwelling on it, but it's a huge elephant in the room to me. I want them to be good too, I really do, and if we get them working together and not blaming and supporting, I can deal. I just wish it didn't feel so out of joint with what's happened.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-03 00:40
You can add me to the "would like some closure" camp. Not much, not overly angsty, but just brief mention about how happy they are that things seem to be better between them and WHY!!! Maybe Dean could mention Sam's not looking form him in season 8 and how much that hurt him; maybe Sam could mention the Gadreel thing and how much that hurt him; maybe Dean could mention that taking on the Mark was a stupid thing to do and he regrets it; maybe Sam could mention that working with Rowena and TBOTD was a dumb thing to do and that he regrets that. See? Three years of crap dealt with in one sentence. It can be done writers!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-11-03 01:56
I understand what you guys are saying but Dean has just spent a year starting out as a demon and then the latter part fighting the effects of the MoC convinced he was going to lose. Sam spent that year worried sick about Dean. Then against all odds and with a lot of help from Sam, Dean is free from the mark and the Darkness is unleashed. So number one I think they were greatly relieved and happy to get a fresh chance at doing things better. I think that was a mutual decision. Also one that included getting back to "saving people". Also it was only episode 4! I think the expectations were far too high for there to be a heart to heart. Who knows maybe there will be more talks in the coming episodes. Maybe not. They are just finding their footing after a horrible few years. I know I was content to have an awesome episode that felt like the brothers were on the same page, having fun for gods sakes, and there wasn't any underlying anger. Win win. :)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-03 07:10
Hi Leah, I think our comments (mine, Sylvia, SamanDean) are more about the lack of any follow through or heart to heart between the boys at ANY time during the Carver administration. We are lamenting the fact that neither brother will probably ever say anything about anything no matter how much it NEEDS to happen, because that's how Carver does things. He mucks up a huge amount of crap between them, creates an enormous amount of conflict then drops everything and never has either character address it ever again despite how glaringly obviously it needs to be addressed, and then says something like "they're guys... that's how they are...." Not good enough in my book. I will long for the brothers to rehash some of this ground for as long as I watch this show, knowing full well that with Carver at the wheel that it will never happen.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-11-03 09:12
Good Point, BoGirle. And honestly, I wish I felt like everybody who thought it was fantastic. I wish I could stop my brain and my heart and just say, "Oooo Sam said Jerk and Dean said Bitch. Everything's right with the world." And, like I said, there was so much to like about the episode and I hope with all my heart that the boys will stay on the same page from now on. And Leah, you might be right. It's only episode 4, but it just felt like they let the perfect opportunity slip by.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-03 07:10
Ooops! Double post!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-11-03 14:11
Samanddean10: Quote:
The Dean from those seasons would be totally wrecked that he had tried on two separate occasions to kill his little brother, and he would have expressed that to Sam. The Sam from those seasons would have displayed more anguish over the tough choices he was making in S 10, and the consequences that have ensued.

I agree with this statement. I don't think they will rehash everything, even in a three minute conversation. If I had to be selective, I would like to see Dean address his feelings about almost killing Sam and for sam saving him. On the upside ... we do see old Sam back in Season 11- need to change speech, making good choices, working alone Smart Sam, more assertive Sam.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-03 17:12
Quote:
On the upside ... we do see old Sam back in Season 11- need to change speech, making good choices, working alone Smart Sam, more assertive Sam.
I know, so far so good! Fingers crossed that it continues. I have to say, I'm quite curious to see how the new female writer writes for the brothers. I always thought the women writers from the first 5-6 years were consistently great at writing Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-01 02:15
I have liked your comment except " I am not really back" part.Quote:
For example look at the THEN section of the episode (which is supposed to give us an idea of what the episode is working from story-line wise): God, Impala, Sexy Dean with Impala, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat (oh Sam is equally visible here!), John, sexy Dean with impala, repeat, Sam saying 'this is my fault'. (the order may be off but the number of hero shots of Dean is correct). Frankly that is exactly what the episode gave us so ... yay for the quality of the abstract I guess?
yes.I agree I too observed the same.Also the samlight parts that came later on also was not for my taste.But atleast they did it in a new way.The episode is in Impala POV, so the last part was sam light.But god forbid Impala's POV of only Sam is shown no no no...but it is Sam's home...somehow ...yeah...whatever.Quote:
It is irritating and it is disrespectful to Sam as a character and even to any coherence to be seen in Season 10 to dismiss what ACTUALLY happened with this sort of visual shorthand.
sadly I have come to expect it but yeah disappointed nonethelessQuote:
So yeah, if this is a lighthearted blame-free episode then lay OFF with the one-sided blame game. Pick one, writers, you can't have it both ways.
without blaming Sam? what ...what? they dont know anything like that.Someone has to blame Sam and only Sam.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-11-01 09:46
Quote:

yes.I agree I too observed the same.Also the samlight parts that came later on also was not for my taste.But atleast they did it in a new way.The episode is in Impala POV, so the last part was sam light.But god forbid Impala's POV of only Sam is shown no no no...but it is Sam's home...somehow ...yeah...whatever.
This was so strange and annoying to me. It seemed like a glaring misstep to me that Sam was never shown driving the car and or having any individual action with the car like Dean did. I mean, it's supposedly his home, right? And I actually couldn't believe that they decided to just basically send Sam away so Dean could have three fight scenes. It was just so blatant. RT might have just as well put up a neon sign that said, "Look at how cool Dean is when he fights next to his car. Who needs a brother there to take away from the glory?"

Sorry ya'll. I'll shut up now. :(
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-11-03 14:26
Sam did have an individual action with the car that you would have expected Dean to have: Sam got laid in the back seat. He also had a intrinsically SAM moment in the car: he had a Vision. Sam also did what his brother did in their HOME: eat, sleep laugh, talk, research. He also talked to Cas and helped Dean wash the Impala. The two had to separate a bit to beat the monsters! Sam went to save the people. That's what Sam does! Then baby started up despite her injuries to go get SAM ! She welcomed him back after he did his job and returned battered and bruised like the rest of them.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-11-03 16:12
You are right, he did have those scenes and I know it isn't a competition. It just seemed an odd choice to me that Sam was never shown driving and that they opted to have him off screen, not only for his morning after with Piper, which would have been comedy gold as far as I'm concerned, but for the last fifteen minutes of the action. And you are correct in that it is typical that Sam goes off (screen) to save victims quite often while Dean remains to interact with whoever is the guest monster, star or whatever of the week. And I didn't need Dean running to Sam's rescue. I would have preferred them fighting together on screen to save other people and each other. That's my brother Jam. I didn't need to see Dean getting whaled on and dishing it out to others in three separate scenes, as I said above, I had enough of that last season. But looking at it from your point of view, I can see what you're saying. :)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-10-31 22:10
Hi eilf!! It's E! Glad to see you back if only for a comment or two. I've missed seeing you here, but understand perfectly why commenting is problematic in the Carver years. And, even though I did really like this episode, I can't say I disagree with your view here. RT's bias is pretty glaring if somewhat less annoying in this specific episode. Well, at least we've gotten rid of the other Dean biased writer, who not only warped every episode to make Dean look like an unrealistic superhero, but made Sam correspondingly moronic to boot. Good bye Adam Glass!! Not gonna miss you AT ALL. I think RT is a better writer in general than Glass and he did provide Sam with some good insight and scenes in this episode.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-01 02:03
Quote:
No discussion about anything Sam went through with Dean with the MOC and no talk from Dean about being sorry or how it felt to know that he almost killed his brother twice. It was so refreshing to get some POV from Sam and to hear him talking about important things, and yet, Dean didn't say anything about his secret. So does that mean we're supposed to assume that he told Sam already about his bond with Amara? I think my anticipation of the episode and the fact that there feels like an elephant in the room to me regarding everything that's happened, dampened my enthusiasm for their conversation.
As I have said earlier this is what happens .Deans mistakes are swept under the rug and we miss a chance for his redemption.Let us see maybe it will come in the remaining episodes....or may be not if history is anything to go by.but one can hope right.Quote:
Anyway, instead of two scenes of Dean beating on people and getting beat up (which I had quite enough of the last two seasons), it would have been nice to see he and Sam maybe fighting together from the Impala's point of view. Instead, Sam was sent away and apparently had quite the beat down himself and saved some people as well, but we didn't get to see any of that
yes
strawhair
# strawhair 2015-10-30 19:29
We've been underestimating Sam. How much of a playah is he? He got the waitress to sleep with him in the back of a car he wasn't even driving. Dean had the key.

Dean's "I read" was another nice callback. He said the same thing back in "The Monster at the End of This Book" after showing that he knew who Kurt Vonnegut was.
Freebird
# Freebird 2015-10-30 21:44
Awesome episode! Finally!

I find the last couple of seasons a little too cluttered, filled with stories that involved one of the brothers in danger and the other one fighting to safe him which led to disputes and secrets between them. When the core of Supernatural is the brotherly bond, the humour and the fighting things, saving people. I hope the show will now continue on the path laid out in the beginning.

Thanks for your review, Alice! Always good to read it.
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2015-10-31 01:01
I don't give an A+ easily either, but I'll second yours, Alice; wonderful review of an amazing episode.

Tom Wright - I'm in awe. The opening gambit alone had me grinning like an idiot - the toy soldier in the ashtray, the LEGOs in the vent, Sam & Dean's initials, then broken glass, blood and a battered Dean - an incredible homage to past episodes leading us right into the present story, and all wordlessly. My Christmas Wish is that they include a Director's behind-the-scen es feature for Baby on the Season 11 DVD so we can see how it was all put together.

Kudos too to Robbie Thompson: the brothers conversation in the Winchester Motel was perfection and the humour spot on, unlike *ahem* last week :P I almost fell off the couch when Dean used Baby's windshield wiper to knock the severed head off the car, and using the door to take off the MOTW's head for good - brilliant! That allowed Baby to take an active role in taking down the monster without animating her in any ridiculous way. [Not sure if the writer or director gets credit for that one, but hugs to both gentlemen, if they'll allow me. :) ]

Did anyone else notice that Matt Cohen completely changed the modulation of his voice in this episode compared to past appearances? He sounded way more like JDM. I don't know if it was a conscious choice on the writer/director 's part, or if MC has just been doing his homework, but A+ to him too.

This is one episode I'll happily rewatch repeatedly.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2015-11-02 07:56
Quote:
Did anyone else notice that Matt Cohen completely changed the modulation of his voice in this episode compared to past appearances? He sounded way more like JDM. I don't know if it was a conscious choice on the writer/director's part, or if MC has just been doing his homework, but A+ to him too.
I did! I was literally sitting there thinking, damn, but he sounds like Jeff! Maybe as a way to sort of sound like the John Sam knew, but still just slightly off?
Karen
# Karen 2015-10-31 03:22
Hi Alice
I loved your review. What a fantastic episode. I actually got all giddy and goose bumpy watching it.
I'm not sure who is sending Sam these visions, but I am hoping it's either God or a servant of his. I would love for it to be Gabriel. ;)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-10-31 21:33
Nice review Alice. I give this one an A- rather than an A or A+ for the reasons mentioned by eilf and SamanDean. I don't want to be a downer, especially considering how much everyone loves this one, but Sam was pretty much persona non grata in the last 20 minutes of the episode. He was fobbed off twice... with the patented "I'll go research line....." with 'exit Sam stage left,' and the then the camera stays with Dean. I didn't need to see Dean have THREE fights in the impala, especially when it was made known that Sam had a knock-down-drag -out fight of his own, one in which he saved two kids no less. I'd rather have seen one less Dean fight and got to see the Sam throw down for a change. I did appreciate how well this episode tied into the myth arc and loved Matt Cohen as 'John.' I agree with Scullspeare, Matt Cohen really seemed to be channeling JDM. I wonder if that was a deliberate choice on his part? Anyway, he was very effective. I hope he comes back again. That scene and the long talk in the car were the best parts of the episode for me... that and the opening 20 minutes of the brothers just being brothers, shooting the shit, ribbing each other, griping about beer.. pure gold.

This is the type of experimental and out of the box episode that I feel that this show should have been doing for the past 2 or 3 years now. I think that Bitten was another attempt at a concept episode, but it had so little of the brothers in it that it didn't work as well (although from a creative standpoint, that was a really terrific episode IMO.) Anyway, a show as old as Supernatural, with a built in and dedicated fanbase is in a unique position to be taking these kinds of chances. My hope is that with the positive feedback that they've gotten from this episode emboldens the writers to take more of these kinds of chances either later in this season or next season.......ye s, I believe there will be a season 12. :)
Jen
# Jen 2015-11-01 01:29
Hi everyone just reading through the latest comments particularly those relating to the Boys chating casually about Demon Dean ext, I don't really think it would have fitted into the monologue, they were more discussing now, the writers could have written it differently so it could have fitted in, but the Boys have always excepted the good/bad in each other and havn't always seen it necessary to bring up old wounds. I feel what we would like to see and hear maybe a bit like how the Robert Singer panel appeared to have gone - Its just a TV show that happened move on ?? would this be correct. Dean apologized to Cas in his own way by not having Cas heal him, I hope I have understood the above conversation correctly. Maybe over the season oppurtunities will open up for more deep and meaningfuls for Sam & Dean
I throughly enjoyed this ep. it was funny, relaxing, comforting and huggable. But Sam's absence toward the end there really stood out like a sore toe. I know Baby couldn've been in two places at once, So since she was with Dean thats what we saw, maybe there could have been away to have both boys around the impala ??? Loved it though - Great review Alice Thanks
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-11-01 09:26
Dean sort of apologizing to Cas in his own way does not really translate to him apologizing to Sam not at all, in my opinion. I know that the guys usually just move on from stuff that happens, but Sam usually attempts to apologize or thank Dean when he feels like something is his fault or when Dean has saved him, whereas Dean just apparently feels guilty(accordin g to Jensen) but never says a damn thing. And although Sam apparently doesn't need an apology or any thanks for what he did, I think it would go a long way in healing some of the rifts between them. All it would take would be a "thanks for not giving up on me, Sammy." A nice throwback to an old episode and at the same time, some words from Dean to Sam that he realizes that his brother busted his ass to keep him from becoming a demon again.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-01 10:55
In Paper Moon Dean did apologize as much as Sam would let him. When he was saying thank you Sam told him
'You don't ever have to say that, not to me.' So words have been said between them it's just that some fans don't care for what has been said or the words written. I don't know why people keep hanging on hoping for a brotherly rehash of past misdeeds because it's pretty clear it isn't going to happen. They are men, that's how they roll.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-11-01 14:02
You are right that Dean tried to say thank you in Paper Moon and Sam cut him off. I was thinking about that when I wrote my statement that Sam doesn't need to hear it from Dean so I guess I should have referenced it. But here's the thing. I don't want a brotherly rehash of past misdeeds. I just want Dean to freakin' acknowledge that Sam had his back and did what Dean has been accusing him of not doing since the beginning of season 8. After all to of the crap that Dean has brought up again and again for the last three seasons, it would actually be nice to hear him say something positive besides, "you sure know how to treat a lady by putting a blanket down on the back seat before you bang her." I know Sam isn't perfect and he says stuff that hurts Dean's feelings and he lies because he thinks it's the right thing to do just like Dean does and on and on. It's just my personal feeling that I would have enjoyed the episode a whole lot more if there had been some sort of acknowledgement from Dean that last year might have been kind of a shitty one for both of them and it was mostly due to him and his poor decision.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-01 14:50
Quote:
But here's the thing. I don't want a brotherly rehash of past misdeeds. I just want Dean to freakin' acknowledge that Sam had his back and did what Dean has been accusing him of not doing since the beginning of season 8. After all to of the crap that Dean has brought up again and again for the last three seasons, it would actually be nice to hear him say something positive besides, "you sure know how to treat a lady by putting a blanket down on the back seat before you bang her."
when Dean gets time from blaming Sam then maybe.Quote:
It's just my personal feeling that I would have enjoyed the episode a whole lot more if there had been some sort of acknowledgement from Dean that last year might have been kind of a shitty one for both of them and it was mostly due to him and his poor decision.
Dean? Poor decision? which one? Oh the mark thing....who cares.It was Dean who did it.so it will be left in the last season.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-01 16:46
Sam? Poor decision? Which one? Like the working with Rowena thing. Or maybe the human sacrifice thing. Maybe the continuing on with using The Book Of The Damned in spite of the promise to his brother to stop? Ooh, I know. The releasing of The Darkness because we just forged ahead in spite of the unknown Biblical consequences. Yeeeahhh those. But I know, Sam didn't want to ignore what Dean wanted, knowing how strongly he felt. Sam didn't have a choice, he was between a rock and a hard place. Sam did it all for the right reasons and out of his love for Dean... Right? Kind of like Dean for Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-02 00:49
Quote:
Like the working with Rowena thing.
Because Dean took on the mark which was a poor decision.yes it was .No you mean Dean taking on the mark was not a poor decision.Well franken boy would differ .we should celebrate Dean's poor decisions and let Dean kill more people and Sam should have respected Dean's decision and not tried to save him.yeaaaah.Sam was put in that position by Dean's poor choices which somehow have not come up again.Quote:
Sam did it all for the right reasons and out of his love for Dean... Right?
Dean took on the mark because he loved Sam.Ha ha ha.His foolishness put them in this place.
I agree that Sam did it out of love .So not like Dean for sam...as the situations and motivations were different.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-01 11:39
Quote:
Dean sort of apologizing to Cas in his own way does not really translate to him apologizing to Sam not at all, in my opinion. I know that the guys usually just move on from stuff that happens, but Sam usually attempts to apologize or thank Dean when he feels like something is his fault or when Dean has saved him, whereas Dean just apparently feels guilty(according to Jensen) but never says a damn thing. And although Sam apparently doesn't need an apology or any thanks for what he did, I think it would go a long way in healing some of the rifts between them. All it would take would be a "thanks for not giving up on me, Sammy." A nice throwback to an old episode and at the same time, some words from Dean to Sam that he realizes that his brother busted his ass to keep him from becoming a demon again.
Yes agree with this sylvia.Also Sam's apologies are never enough for some including Dean .The it is expected that Sam should accept Dean's apology easily.The Amy debacle and the ensued reaction are still fresh in my mind.Dean also says everything is bygones and then just dredges it up again.But there cannot be an episode without blaming Sam .because you see Sam's apologies are never enough.Sam keeps a secret ...reaction is"how dare he not tell Dean" .Dean keeps a secret not a peep.This has always been the pattern.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-01 13:26
Sometimes it seems as if we are watching a completely different show. Sam always apologizes, Dean never accepts it. Dean never apologizes (except when he does) and Sam always accepts it. Sam never lies or hides things from Dean except when he does but it's all okay because Sam has his reasons and besides Dean is bossy and forceful and disrespectful and never listens to or let's Sam express himself. Oh yeah and Dean is a hypocritical bastard lying liar who lies. And no this isn't the exact wording from you or the other Sam supporters but it's pretty close. Good Lord. Dean isn't perfect but neither is Sam.

And the Amy debacle was ridiculous. Sam wasn't stable at the time, Dean (and Sam) knew she was killing and did what he had to do. He made a judgement call. If she hadn't been killing he would've let her go the way he did her son. Sam even agreed that Dean was correct in doing what he did.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-11-01 14:10
Some fans didn't get to hear all the issues they have with the brothers relationship dumped out all over the Impala. (Dean girls too) didn't get what they wanted, which was an airing of all the grievances from the last two seasons (or in some cases the entire series). You are right AC we aren't going to get that. And I think I have a theory as to why it isn't going to happen. I read a review by Amy (SOD) and I think she hit on the theme of this episode and the season going forward. All these long years of Saving People, Hunting Things one thing that we kind of lost sight of the last two seasons is that Sam and Dean really like each other. More than their love or bond they like hanging out with each other. They enjoy each others company. This episode was a glimpse into that relationship. The one that happens when we aren't watching. They are having fun and getting along while still trying to wrap their heads around the big bad that is stalking them at the moment. I think that this is going to be the relationship going forward. The two brothers working as a united front. Michael/God/Luc ifer/?? said that only they could stop the Darkness. So I am taking that to mean that even though there would still be secrets (Amy had some excellent thoughts about that on her podcast) we are going to see a relationship where they just like being with each other. Yay!

I really wouldn't hold my breath for any grand apologies.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-01 14:44
Quote:
I really wouldn't hold my breath for any grand apologies.
Then it is a good thing no one is.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-11-01 16:12
Yes I totally agree. Because I would love nothing better than to watch a whole season of this....

anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-02 00:40
Quote:
Because I would love nothing better than to watch a whole season of this....
It would get boring for me.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-11-02 02:59
It wouldn't for me. I don't want to see another season of the brothers at odds with each other. I would love to see them at odds with the bad guys instead.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-11-02 11:27
Needs more torture, and blood :>
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-03 07:19
Heh... Y.E.S are you preoccupied?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-01 17:14
Agreed. And maybe, just maybe because of the last horrific situation they went through (DemonDean, The MOC, Death at the restaurant, Sams panic and desperation, the release of TheDarkness) that they have finally come to the realization that all that has happened before has happened, it's done and they can't change a damned thing. For better or worse it has made them what they are and its time to move beyond. As fresh a start as they can make it. Are there going to be bumps... along the way? Hell yes, it wouldn't be the Winchesters if there weren't. It makes sense that they would be so profoundly affected that they would try and do things differently and I don't mean the updated Hunter Mission Statement but emotionally and how they relate personally. Being who they are they aren't going to break it down, analyse and diagram it out but it would be more of an unspoken effort between them. That's also kind of the way I read Dean's reaction to Sam's revelation about having been infected. That and realizing that it was probably the same way Dean would have reacted.

Deans reaction to the visions based on their combined history with other entities screwing with their minds... was rather unDeanlike, considering all that's going on, especially with The Darkness and not knowing what it wants or is capable of, so I'm not sure what to think of that. If I were Sam I'd be keeping an eye out for both of them.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-11-01 19:06
***SPOILER*** I think....Jensen has said in an interview that he hasn't told Sam everything about his "visions" memories yet and they are filming ep 11 I think. It also sounds like episodes 9 and 10 are big episodes that impact the brothers in some way. So the mystery of his visions/memorie s seem to be a season long story. Or one that isn't going to be revealed for a while yet. Maybe a midseason cliffhanger?****SPOILER*****
And I agree. The Mission Statement is just a starting off point for their relationship as well (not just mowing down innocent people to achieve their goal). The writers have also got to change how they write the brothers. I think most fans want to see the brothers united, liking each other. And like Jensen said at the last convention it's not a dictatorship. Sam isn't his subordinate. Dean isn't the "leader" of TFW. They are equal partners. That is why Dean wasn't happy about Sam keeping the infection from him but he wasn't furious either. Bigger picture and all. I want to see that theme continue for the rest of the series. And I think that boils down to how the brothers are written. No more sanctimonious judgment's from either one of them would be so nice for a change. I still want them to sacrifice anything and everything for each other but I don't want to see the usual "this brother did worse things than that brother" writing that tends to pit fans against each other. It makes for unpleasant viewing IMHO.
That is why I put more weight on this episode than just a stunt or bottle episode. I think there was some important character development and hopefully the rest of the writers follow up. This appears to be a statement of how the brothers are going to relate to each other at least for this season. I hope I'm right. No more brothers at odds.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-11-01 19:20
Nicely said Cheryl. I agree and hope you are right.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-01 19:31
Well put. I think that this is the direction Carver is taking them tho of course it won't be devoid of some conflict or angst or whatever. Remember Carvers "ish" caveat. I think the brothers will meet it in this new and improved mature manner tho which will make all the difference. ;)

Ooh the spoiler! So curious as to where they are going with Dean's connection with The Darkness.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-02 01:06
Quote:
.Jensen has said in an interview that he hasn't told Sam everything about his "visions" memories yet and they are filming ep 11 I think
Dean keeping secret while expecting Sam to tell him everything.so nothigs changed.good to know.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-11-02 02:57
Watch the interview. It's in Bits and Pieces. I didn't want to say any more because it is a spoiler. There is much more to the conversation.

Even that sentence that you quoted I highlighted with ****SPOILER**** . Maybe you could fix that so those who don't want to be spoiled can be warned.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-01 14:23
Dean (and Sam) knew she was killing and did what he had to do. He made a judgement call. If she hadn't been killing he would've let her go the way he did her son
Can you help me to understand some details? Amy killed some people in the past and promised that she will never do it again. But Dean was right to kill her. Benny killed some people in the past, but promised not to do it again. Dean was right to let him go.
Amy killed some scumbags and it made her a monster. Dean killed some scumbags, but it didn't make him a monster.
Can you share some criteria how to make judgements? I'm a little bit at a loss here.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-01 18:22
Disgruntled: Amy was killing in the present. Sam followed and caught her not realizing it would turn out to be Amy. She admitted to Sam she had killed the three but that she wasn't a murderer. Sam had her at knifepoint and he wasn't looking too happy over the reunion. Amy then knocked him down and ran off. When Sam tracked her back to her house she had fresh blood on her so she had killed again. Amy was a monster, she wasn't stopping so she had to die. Sam ultimately agreed that Dean's decision was the right one. Are you saying that because she only killed scumbags that it was okay? That if she had been snacking on the more upstanding citizens of the town then suddenly it would be wrong?

As far as Dean goes it was self defense. Overkill? Yes. But Dean warned them not to attack him any further and to back off as he knew he might not be able to control himself if they didn't. They were armed, they outnumbered him they thought they had the upper hand. They foolishly poked the bear and paid the price because of the MOC. I doubt Dean would have killed them if he had been just normal Dean. The only one questionable in that ordeal would be Randy because I don't think he was in the group that was content on harm.

As far as Benny goes he killed in the past, he wasn't killing in the present, he was living off bagged blood. Dean said if Benny started dropping bodies that he would take care of him. Benny knew if he crossed that line that Dean would have no other choice than to kill him.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-02 00:38
.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-11-02 05:59
So, your only criterion Dean is always right. The premise which is difficult to refute. You are saying that Dean can be wrong, but in every particular case assert that he is right
You see, I think that he was wrong with Amy and right with Benny. He was wrong that he didn't trust Sam's judgement, as Sam was wrong not to trust Dean's judgement. But at least Sam didn't rush to kill Benny behind Dean's back, he gave Benny a chance, which Amy never had.
As for your justification of Marked Dean's actions. You contradict yourself:
on one hand you're saying, that killing people, even if they are scumbags are wrong (and I'm with you here) and a normal Dean wouldn't do that (and I'm also with you here), on the other hand you're saying that Dean controlled the Mark and Sam's actions to free him from that Mark are unjustified.
These all are situations which should be judged from the same positions, not to shift them according to actions of which brother is being discussed.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-01 14:42
Quote:
Sometimes it seems as if we are watching a completely different show.
Mostly our POVs are different.Quote:
Sam always apologizes, Dean never accepts it. Dean never apologizes (except when he does) and Sam always accepts it. Sam never lies or hides things from Dean except when he does but it's all okay because Sam has his reasons and besides Dean is bossy and forceful and disrespectful and never listens to or let's Sam express himself. Oh yeah and Dean is a hypocritical bastard lying liar who lies.
some rubbish you have collected here.you may keep it for yourself .Nothing Other than the bossy thing there is nothing on this list which I have said or have come close to.But yeah this is not the first time you have put words in someones mouth and I think it is not going to be the last .

Good lord ..I never said Sam was perfect.so much melodrama here.good lord.

Quote:
And the Amy debacle was ridiculous. Sam wasn't stable at the time, Dean (and Sam) knew she was killing and did what he had to do. He made a judgement call.
wrong judgement according to me.Like how he let Benny go.She said she will stop .If she did not he should have killed her.Oh! and he went behind Sam's back.The one who berated Sam for keeping secrets became the one who kept secret from Sam (not the first time).Oh and the salty fans " Sam is such a meany for not understanding why Dean kept it a secret".While Dean had no trouble giving benny a pass because of Benny's words *facepalm* he had no trouble killing Sam's saviour.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-01 18:38
Clearly you missed the part where I wrote "And no this isn't the exact wording from you or the other Sam supporters, but it's pretty close." And it was I who.said "Dean isn't perfect, but neither is Sam."

Yes Dean needs to put complete trust in someone who is not of his right mind and had just unloaded his gun in a warehouse at a hallucination.

You speak as if Sam has never, ever, ever, kept a secret from Dean. Past or present. And Dean was right to give Benny a pass as it was never shown by Show that he ever started killing once he got topside. Canon. If Dean hadn't killed Sams saviour, Sam would still be in Purgatory so I.don't know what your point is there. Dean fully intended to bring him back, Benny decided to stay.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-02 00:30
Quote:
Clearly you missed the part where I wrote "And no this isn't the exact wording from you or the other Sam supporters, but it's pretty close."
Clearly You missed the part where I addressed that.
But is a nice way of commenting say whatever you want to accuse us Sam supporters of and then say you do not say this but it is pretty close.If you want to waffle around you do so but I just detest this kind of waffling.Quote:
"Dean isn't perfect, but neither is Sam."
I never said that you did not say so I just addressed the context you said that.Quote:

Yes Dean needs to put complete trust in someone who is not of his right mind and had just unloaded his gun in a warehouse at a hallucination.
Yes he should because his and Amy's relation was established before that.She was Sam's friend and saviour and Sam wanted to give her a chance and Dean was wrong not to.You talk as If the whole time till then Sam was just going around with a gun shooting things. smh.But it suits your needs so sam was just simply not in right mind.Sam was in the right mind at that time.Quote:
You speak as if Sam has never, ever, ever, kept a secret from Dean. Past or present.
Sam has kept secrets from Dean .But the reactions are different.Sam deals with Deans secrets than and there while Dean harbours a grudge...dredreg it up again and again and does not deal with it.This a character trait which I find in Sam which I appreciate.when Sam forgives he forgives and moves on.
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And Dean was right to give Benny a pass as it was never shown by Show that he ever started killing once he got topside. Canon.
And canon also did not show us that he did not kill any people.But it did tell us that he did kill people.canon.But I know that it was that pesky Martin who said that so it is not reliable. I trust martin's words .
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If Dean hadn't killed Sams saviour, Sam would still be in Purgatory so I.don't know what your point is there. Dean fully intended to bring him back, Benny decided to stay.
Sam's saviour was Amy .If she had not saved Sam then there would a very different supernatural.Th at was my point.But In that Same token Sam was benny's saviour as he got him back to where he was comfortable and that is purgatory .and Benny is comfortable in purgatory.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-01 14:55
It was an OK episode.There were parts I liked
1) seeing how they spend the time during travel.
2) the brotherly banter.
3)direction.
and things I did not like
1) Jerk bitch (am\lways sounds better in banter sitation but did not like it here)
2) sam lite 3rd part
3) Dean still not telling Sam about Amara (if he has told then I wanted a scene of Dean telling Sam this which they have not shown).and then being all you did not tell em.why?
4) lack Baby and Sam only scene.
So overall not as good as the first two episodes but better than the third.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2015-11-02 07:21
Hi Alice!
So, here we are, almost at the next episode and I'm only commenting now. I haven't done this in a while. This year threw me for a curve ball, and I barely have time anymore for a decent watch of my TV staples, but I had to comment on this episode, because holy feels! Yes, it really is episodes like this that remind us of why we fell in love with this show in the first place, and for me it's exactly the same as you: two, guys, a car and the open road, fighting the good fight. It's these kinds of episodes that, even though I always enjoy watching, truly reignite that old spark of love for this show. It's when they get back to heart of what Supernatural is truly about at the end of the day: family. And what better way to showcase that than by celebrating perhaps the most underrated member of our little family, Baby, who has always been there for our boys, and I'm sure always will; the one constant in their lives that has never changed even if so much else has.
This episode was a masterpiece from beginning to end, and has easily made it's way onto my classic SPN list. In fact, it's the first episode since I think Fan Fiction that I re-watched almost immediately and quite possibly loved even more than the first time I watched.
And honestly, shrilling doesn't quite cover my reaction to Bitch, jerk. It actually took everything I had not to run around my house screaming (I would have if it wasn't about 11pm when I watched and I didn't think I'd freak the neighbours right out).
Gwen
# Gwen 2015-11-07 06:19
So I finally got around to seeing this episode. I had been looking forward to it but still had my reservations because Robbie Thompson is my least favourite writer on the show but I was happy to find that my apprehension was groundless. I loved Baby. That long scene of the boys talking in the car was just wonderful.

I'm one of those fans for whom Seasons 1-3 will always be the best and this episode gave me all the things that had me falling in love with Supernatural from The Pilot and all the things that keep me watching all these years later - Sam and Dean and Baby driving down the highway fighting the bad guys.