The season’s fourth episode, “Baby”, was written by Robbie Thompson and uses unique camera angles, direction, and lighting to tell the episode's story through the perspective of the Winchesters’s 1967 Chevy Impala.

The episode begins with one of the final scenes from the episode's story, which is Dean handcuffed in the back of a beaten up Impala.

The story revolves around a monster of the week case that Dean and Sam catch wind of while they are at the bunker. The first scene shows Dean and Sam washing Baby and it’s implied that Dean is in shorts. Sam notes that Cas is on the mend. Dean has cabin fever.

In the car we see Sam take a smoothie out of the green cooler and Dean complains about the beer. They pull up to a roadhouse and we jump to seeing Dean in the morning. Camera angle from backseat shows Dean approaching and when he gets in, he notes that mistakes were made but you can see he has no regrets. A woman emerges from the backseat and it seems Sam also made some mistakes.

The next scene is nice brothers laughing and singing to “Night Moves” by Bob Seger. A lot of banter between the brothers until Dean encourages Sam to sleep. He dreams about his father, or perhaps not? Matt Cohen returns for this sequence. Sam and “John” talk about how Dean has taken care of the car and Sam, and how John never wanted this life for the boys. The tone changes when Sam accuses him of either being God or not real. John warns Sam that the Darkness is coming and that only “you boys” can stop it. He ends by saying “God helps those who help themselves.”

There follows a long conversation sequence between Sam in the backseat and Dean in the frontseat. Sam reveals his vision and also that he was infected back at the hospital. Dean chastises him and they have a long discussion about the life and dreams and what could’ve beens. Dean reveals his own dreams about life without hunting and Dad teaching him to drive. Sam dreams about Mom. Dean says that this is their life and that they’ll figure out how to defeat the Darkness, like they always do. They go to sleep calling each other “jerk” and “bitch.”

Back in town, Dean finds out details on the case and wants to call it a werepire. Sam nor Cas sign onto this name. There is a cute sequence of the Impala being driven by a valet driver, who picks up her friend and they joyride before bringing it back.

Sam heads out to investigate while Dean goes to the crime scene. A deputy shows up while Cas is on the phone. Both the fight and the phone call are humorous. Dean ends up decapitating the werepire and putting its head in the cooler.

Dean picks up Sam and a seeming victim of the werepire, Mrs. Markham. Cas finds out it’s an ancient monster, which Dean calls a Ghoulpire. They figure out the way to kill it is with copper and they realize that copper pennies are no longer copper. They stop at a gas station and while Sam is inside flirting with  the cashier, Dean gets attacked by Mrs. Markham, who steals the car. Two women have driven this car in the episode.  

Markham takes them back to the deputy’s body and reattaches his head to his body. They beat up Dean and the deputy notes that they’ve laid a trap for Sam. Sam will make a good soldier in the Alpha’s army. He’s building an army to fight the Darkness. As Sam notes in the end, even the monsters are afraid. There is another fight sequence where Dean gets beaten up by both the deputy and Mrs. Markham. Finally he finds a handful of pennies and shoves them into the deputy’s mouth, which kills him and cures Markham. She is horrified and scared for her kids, who had been turned. Dean is worried about Sam so they take a rather beautifully shot u turn back to Markham’s house. They arrive and Sam has the kids. Everyone is okay if beaten up.

The episode ends with a quiet exchange between the brothers.

Since this was a standard MOTW, there is not a lot to spec. Great job by the director and writer.

I only have one question and that’s about the alpha. Do you think we’ll see more alphas activating their armies? If so, will we finally see Alpha Vampire again?!?!!! (Hopes and wishes)

Leave your thoughts, feelings, and other things here.

 

Comments  

nightsky
# nightsky 2015-10-28 22:57
I have a question, but in the interest of staying unbiased, I can't read your answers! So who was in Sam's vision?? I'll talk about it in Threads!
Alice
# Alice 2015-10-29 00:20
Michael. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 01:32
Me too!
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-29 11:26
The I could never fool you comment sounds like Lucifer. Michael never was in a position to fool Sam. That’s what I am sticking to!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-29 13:52
That may be but why would Michael want to say anything to Sam. Doesn't he hate Sam as much as Lucifer does? And Sam and Dean broke the world again wouldn't Michael or Lucifer want to find someone a little more competent? If it is God though maybe his message to Sam is that Michael and Lucifer can help.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-29 19:48
:o That makes sense!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-29 07:40
hmmmm... while I'd like to think it was Michael, if Michael and/or Lucifer were able to send visions to Sam and/or Dean, you would think they'd have been tormenting both of them ever since Death retrieved Sam's soul from the cage in S6. But, one thing is for sure, all roads lead to the cage.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 16:20
This is the most intriguing question this show has raised in awhile. I know you will not read my answer but I want to go on record to state that I think HE is actually God or a direct emissary from God; perhaps Joshua. My reasoning, assuming the writers will be reasonable :).... is : Lucifer and Michael are still in the cage, albeit making noise. If either one could have communicated before, as pointed out by others they would have. So I think the cage prohibits their ability to communicate; thus they have resorted to yelling as their mode of communication and thus only heard in hell. Michael would not reach out to Sam because he has a connection to Dean and if he actually could and had to choose, he would get in touch with his one true vessel; Dean. Lucifer is a more likely possibility and the clever line of dialogue of " i could never fool you" points to Lucifer; but I think it is just that: very clever- and effectively and creatively has us guessing. The same line can apply to God. I also rely on the conversation taken as a whole; the totality of the circumstances if you will. God is the heavenly Father. In this conversation he was acting as the Father. He appeared as the younger version of Sam's real father. He could be seen as talking like a heavenly father calling Sam his son. He also knew and seemed amused about Sam and Dean's ability to move between death and life... "When has death ever stopped a Winchester". It may be because he (God) had a hand in putting them on the plane when Lucifer was rising and he saw all that has happened in their life. He also knew what Sam had stated earlier; so he is listening in: "What you said about relationship's wanting more.... God is omniscient so he would know what Sam is saying. If Lucifer is caught in the cage he would not be able to know what Sam just said the day before. HE also talks like a father.... I never wanted this for you boys, this life, not really. I do not think this line is a facade to create illusion he is John. Time is limited in a vision/dream and every word is important. Lucifer does not care about Dean too and would not wast his time. Key here is that Sam answers as if he was talking to a father. Does he think he is talking to God??? "We turned out okay". He responds: "You did didn't you. But that was on you boys. You did that not me." Sam, still answering to a Father, " you played your part". I (Sam) prayed in that Church and saw something. HE states: Message is the same : Darkness is coming and only you boys can stop it. In response to Sam's plea for help; He states: God helps those who help themselves So whoever it is, HE knows what God will do.... help those who help themselves. It ties in what he just said " You did turn out okay.... you did that..." In essence they did help themselves and now God will help them. I also do not think Lucifer is in the position of telling Sam, that he and Dean are the ones who can stop it. God is the one who knows the darkness and locked it away. This Amara is the darkness because she complains that God locked her away. She is also directly challenging God himself. I think God has made an appearance. I note that when sam was telling Dean about this vision in the car, there was thunder in the background and that usually means God. But I will agree with njspnfan, the road does lead to the cage; in my opinion for help. If Dean is connected to the Darkness because he had the Mark, then Lucifer is too and should know something. Also, Michael was there to fight back the darkness the first time. Finally, I think God would reach out to Sam because Sam is more receptive; he prayed. Dean still is disillusioned and does not believe. Also, Dean has some connection to the darkness. It is my hope that in Season 11, Dean finds some faith in God.
anna
# anna 2015-10-29 17:10
spnlit


i totally agree. ;)
E
# E 2015-10-30 12:17
Hi. Can't log in at the moment, but this is BoGirle or E or however you prefer to address me. I really like this spnlit. Very thorough thinking. I wasn't sure who was contacting Sam and haven't formed any had and fast ideas on it but your analysis here makes sense to me so I am leaning towards it being God or an emissary of God's that has contacted Sam. The "I've never been able to fool you" like does make me think of Lucifer, but I don't think Chuck's monologue from Swan Song was an accident and not merely to re-introduce the car to us I think it was to remind us that God is still around despite evidence to the contrary. And maybe it's the hopeful fool in me that want Sam to be going to the right road for a change. I'd like it to be God, i'd like it to be Sam that's tapping into the avenue that will save them rather than have him be duped again. When Dean scoffed at Sam's feeling that his visions were 'Godlike' at first that pissed me off.... but then I could see it for what it was. Dean needs to find his faith and maybe he will through what's going on with Sam right now. Just no Sam on God's side vs. Dean on Darkness side; been there, done that. I want both brothers playing on the same team and to find the answer together.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-30 16:57
Hi E. Thanks. Intriguing question- right!!??? Good point about Chuck's monologue it does seem to point to God; I hope you are right. I thought it was great to see young John again... perfect vessel. I agree Dean needs to find some faith in God and I hope Sam guides him there.I think both boys will have some personal issues and Dean does have a connection to this darkness but I think they will still stay on the board on the same team.
Kate Hedian
# Kate Hedian 2015-11-01 14:12
I'm sure it was Lucifer. For those who object because Lucifer is still in the pit, lets not forget that the whole time Sam was crazy and being tormented by visions of Lucifer, Lucifer was in the pit. I think because Sam had been in the pit with him, Lucifer could still reach his mind. After Cas "shifted" Sam's craziness, then Cas saw Lucifer. Maybe Lucifer could get thru to Sam again because Cas was affected by Rowena's mad dog spell. In any case, Sam's first vision was of hell (NOT what I'd expect God to send him) but it gave him the clue he needed about needing to be purified. In the second vision, the "I never could fool you" sounds like Lucifer to me....Sam actually was fooled before but only a little while before he would realize it was really Lucifer. I think Lucifer is reaching out to Sam as the one person he can contact to help fight the darkness. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-01 15:04
The hallucinations were just that hallucinations and not generated by Lucifer. As Sam himself said it was just his mind creating images of the pit, trying to deal with them. He became overwhelmed by those images, but Lucifer himself was never involved. When Cas took Sam's crazy he took on what those images where doing to Sam's mind. Both Sam and Cas recovered when enough time had passed. If Lucifer could have contacted Sam from the pit he would have never left Sam alone for one second for the past three years and Michael probably wouldn't have either.... Sam is, after all, the one who got away.
Alice
# Alice 2015-10-29 00:22
I didn't even realize that Sam hadn't gotten laid since season 8! No wonder he wanted to get to know Piper a bit more. It was so good to see that smile on his face. "Out in the back set of my brother's 67 Chevy." LOVED IT! That Night Moves scene makes my personal top ten.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-29 07:42
AND the woman didn't end up dead. It's a Supernatural (or Festivus) miracle !!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-29 13:51
:D
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-29 19:49
OMG you're right! Someone survived Sam Winchester :o
Hang on. Amelia survived too.
E
# E 2015-10-30 08:09
And Doctor Kara!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-01 15:04
Oh and Pachouli girl too.... so, there's been a few.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-29 01:09
Finally!! I got to see it (dam you west coast). Just awesome. I need to watch it again like 10 more times. Great writing, directing, acting (the Impala as Baby was perfection) just wonderful all around.

There is nothing like Supernatural when it is firing on all cylinders is there.

I would assume there is going to be a big gap between cases unless Cas can heal cars too.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 01:32
I enjoyed this episode very much. I kinda wish all the episodes from here on were from the Impala perspective. :) It was so great seeing Sam and Dean just ribbing each other and enjoying themselves. Loved the nighttime talk in the car! Dean seems to have already told Sam about the Darkness and Sam told Dean about the infection. Reminiscing about their childhood and sharing dreams. They seemed relaxed and at ease with each other for the first time in a long while. Yay Sam for having a fun night with a woman! It's been too long. So many things to love. It felt old school except with older wiser brothers.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-29 06:05
I'm leaning Lucifer because of what he said to Sam about how 'I was never able to fool you, was I?' The only one who ever said anything like that to Sam was Lucifer. Matt did a great job as John.

I'm curious to see if Dean's words from his dream about "sticking the landing" will proove to be important or come into play later on as well as what the connotation of the proverb "God helps those who help themselves" is going to be.

A lot to like in the episode. Loved the fight scene in Baby. Kudos Jensen Ackles.
Russ
# Russ 2015-10-29 06:43
I'm with you. I think it was Lucifer. That "never able to fool you" line was not a Michael thing to say.
Jen
# Jen 2015-10-29 08:17
I'm with everyone it was Lucy - His face slightly changed to a Lucifer expression when he said that line
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 14:23
Oh SNAP !!!!!!!!, guess I got to go watch it again. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 07:18
GREAT CATCH, ALYCAT22 :):):):):):):):):)
Lucifer does not like competition. For all the "I am a jealous god," in the bible, Luci really is !!
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-29 11:29
Yes also to Lucifer and sticking the landing
God helps those who helps themselves... it's a way to suggest he's God wit hour lying... claudication Lucifer. And a push for them to do something. With no information other than what death told them, opening the cage is obvious.
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-29 11:31
I don't know what claudication means. Should be good indication. Dumbdumdumdumdu mb autocorrect.
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-29 11:32
Without lying not wit hour.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 15:05
Ok wild speculation about to commence. I think that both Lucifer and Michael are going to be contacting Sam telepathically. There was a commotion from the cage when the Darkness was released indicating consternation so maybe they are teaming up to help put that genie back in the bottle. The angels are terrified of the D. Maybe it was Lucifer but it didn't feel snarky enough for me. Perhaps Lucifer has been cleansed of the Mark as njspnfan says below. I have no doubt Lucifer will play a part. Was it him or Michael? Not really sure.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 15:20
All I know is, it was not God.
As PSG says God just DOES stuff, no telegraphing. :D
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 15:22
We humans, are on God's very last good nerve :D so when HE does help out, HE SAYS NOTHING !!!!! :p:p:p:p:p:p:p: p
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-29 21:08
I just don't see the logic in it being either Michael or Lucifer. Neither Michael or Lucifer has ever contacted the boys before and I don't see how the coming of the darkness would all of the sudden give them the ability to reach the boys beyond the cage when they couldn't do it before. Yes I can see a commotion and both being agitated thus causing a panic....but I don't see how they magically can all of a sudden communicate telepathically. Secondly, why would they be coy about it? seriously, given the dire situation, if either Michael or Lucifer could communicate, why the hell would they give little clues? why not just tell the boys that they need to speak to them...that they can help....given the boy's history, something like this....they damn well would take the chance and see what was up....so there's no reason to be coy. we are talking about the darkness after all.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it as being Michael or Lucifer. Lucifer told sam he would never lie...not that he would he would ever be able to fool you.

I still lean towards it being God or possibly even Gabriel.... I have my reasons for leaning that way....one being that I found it quite interesting that the episode started with Chuck/God narrating. I got the feeling that was show's way of telling us that God is ever present. I found it interesting that despite Sam confessing to dreaming of his mom, it's his father that he saw in the vision. His father, considered absent....and the angels who consider God an absent father.....kind of God's way of being funny I think....

I don't agree that God's been silent. I actually found that God has spoken a few times. God has spoken through Joshua.. God has spoken through Chuck. And I actually think that God has always been present. Every time the boys come back to life. when dean prayed for help outside at bobby's during my bloody valentine.....i t may have seemed like his prayer wasn't answered, but it in fact was.....Sam...t hat was the help Dean needed, and Sam is who ultimately stopped Dean from saying yes to Michael. God brought cas back. I still think God sent Benny to protect Dean in purgatory and I firmly believe that God put that dog in front of Sam's car. When john told sam that God helps those who help themselves...I believe he was basically telling him that they need to keep fighting together, to not give up....that he will help them along the way....when they need it, just as he always has....

so whether or not it was God himself or God's mouthpiece, I think the visions sam is getting is more heavenly than it is anything else. Jensen noted that what's circling sam isn't necessarily evil.....and i'm sorry but regardless of whether Lucifer carries the mark or doesn't , he's evil.....I don't believe it was a mark that made him evil all these billions of years....I believe his own hatred and anger has made him evil....who's to say that the mark corrupted Lucifer? how do we know that Lucifer wasn't already jealous and angry and self righteous and the mark, once given to him fed off of those already existing feelings....isn 't that why cain was worthy of it...and eventually dean? because negative feelings and beliefs already existed? think about it. Lucifer was the most beautiful of God's angels. He was God's most trusted. Above all his brother's and sister's Lucifer was God's favorite. Then God creates man and puts them above all....above all his children...most especially Lucifer....don' t you think it's plausible that Lucifer was enraged and jealous that God put lowly humans above all angels...above him? That these feelings of jealous didn't come from a mark, but came from the fact that Lucifer was no longer no. one in God's eyes, the very eyes which he's been no. 1 for for, who knows how long? I don't think the mark caused Lucifer to be jealous....I think the mark fed off of Lucifer's already existing feelings of jealousy, that comes about when one isn't seen as the "most" anymore. when they feel replaced...whet her or not the mark is on Lucifer makes no difference...Lu cifer isn't suddenly going to become good after eons of feeling jealous and hatred and anger.....espec ially given that those feelings were already a part of Lucifer....the mark just increased what already existed...I don't think Lucifer can ever be untainted....be cause the mark didn't taint him...Lucifer was already tainted with those feelings....the mark just fed off of it...

sorry I digressed....

I'm not sure where the story is taking us....but for now.....i'm going with God or God's mouthpiece....i 'm sure we'll find out either way soon enough:)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-30 02:29
Quote:
possibly even Gabriel....
I too thought it being Gabriel ..him being messenger of god.
I am not very well versed in christian mythology ..but I think god is compared to or called as Father in heaven so god might have taken the visage of their father.
so yes I too thought it might be god or gabriel..but it is too early and I know too little to rule out Lucifer or Michael.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-29 06:17
Was nice to see Sammy finally get some! I just wish we'd gotten to see Sam in the car, less the waitress. I love that he tried to give her his number. I was about to start up a petition to just have Sam join a monastery it had been so long. But speaking of, I always wondered if Sam ever joined Dean in his extracurricular activities. In the episode Provenance he asked Dean 'What are we now Dean? I mean are we rock stars, are we army rangers?' Based on that it seems so.

Pissed that they didn't deliver on the tease about the car wash scene for either Sam or Dean. Also would like to kick the person who edited out Jensens adlib of "Get out of my car!" during the car fight scene ala Clint Eastwood.
Russ
# Russ 2015-10-29 06:17
Please be warned.

I'm going to be an arsehole.

This was the best episode of Supernatural in quite a long time. Easily the best post-Kripke episode. Easily. Weekend at Bobby's has finally been eclipsed.

Here is where I begin to be an arsehole.

This episode is living proof that the previous episode's failings were not that of the writers (Ep. 3 by The Nep Duo). The words being spoken are only part of the story. The camera position; the camera angle; the camera movement; the camera placement; set design; colour; etc ... how dialogue and narrative is captured and presented, is just as important as how dialogue is written and delivered.

Embrace how each frame, even those without dialogue, still spoke to you. Every frame told a story.

I know I'm a lone man on a ledge here. You won't hear what I'm saying.

But I don't care. I'll be here until I get banned.

Peace, bitches!
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 07:23
Wonderful shots but a great script is ACTOR / DIRECTOR proof. :)
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-29 11:33
Yep.
Episode 3 had some very bad writing.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 07:56
Russ, as I said in my comment, I agree with you that the direction was outstanding in this ep. But I also think the script was much better than last week's. The humor was better, the scenes were tighter, the interactions between the characters were more meaningful. While better acting/directio n might have improved last week's ep for me, I think that script was workman-like at best.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 12:50
I'm not going to lay last weeks episode at Jensen's feet. It was boring and that was mostly due to the dialog IMO. I had no problem with it visually.

Why do you keep saying you will be banned?
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 14:17
Old saying in theatre, ''If it aint on the page, it aint on the stage." ;);););)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 14:50
:)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 14:50
oops double post
Wednesday
# Wednesday 2015-10-29 16:51
oops wrong place or did it do a funny jump???:o
Wednesday
# Wednesday 2015-10-29 16:54
Dear Russ,
Thank you for sharing your perspective on directing. You are right, this episode had some amazing direction.
While Action!Ackles is not as experienced, he did demonstrate impressive skills in 11.03, especially in regard to set design, colour, lighting, and camera angles...
I have written a critique on his directing and hopefully, that review will be popping up soon.
I invite you to revisit, read and discuss this topic with us on "Wednesday's Watching 11.03"
There is no need to apologize for your viewpoint or put yourself down for having one.
Although, sometimes you might be called upon to defend your viewpoint, we respect that there are many perspectives and opinions.
Thank you, Sir, for sharing yours.
Jen
# Jen 2015-10-29 06:49
The Boys needed this break to reconnect, for Sam to get his rocks off to laugh/ joke and have fun Even if the monster was pretty savage. I loved it I'm no tech freak, don't understand set design, or colour design, but something was different and it may be what Russ said The cameras and all the different angles, it was relaxing and strangly comforting to watch. Sam & Dean have come along way since S1Ep1.
even Bitch - Jerk sounded different.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 07:00
So glad they did not give baby a "voice."

This was an Outstanding episode. Should have known Robbie Thompson wrote it.
I did not watch until after midnight. So, so good. :)
reilloc
# reilloc 2015-10-29 13:10
I was thinking the same thing but I kept expecting Chuck's voice to come through at the end.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 14:18
So DID I !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o:o

I would have accepted Chuck & only Chuck's voice. :)
E
# E 2015-10-30 08:21
Maybe Baby is God?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 08:40
God is a gas guzzler?
E
# E 2015-10-30 12:19
Well...Baby CAN get from Mississippi to Texas in three hours.... that's pretty Godlike! :P
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 15:59
Orrrr TARDIS like. OMG!!! Could Baby be of alien origin?!?
Arletta
# Arletta 2015-10-29 18:22
I also liked that Baby didn't have a voice, BUT with Castiel on speaker reminded me of Kitt from Knight Rider, and how Kitt would advice Hasselhoff...
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-29 19:36
Totally :)
rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2015-10-29 07:15
I haven't commented in a LONG time. It's been too fractional for me. Anyways, I loved tonight. It felt old and yet new and fresh. Way to go Supernatural! BTW I'm in the Lucifer corner! I don't think it's Michael nor God trying to trigger Sam's memories.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 07:21
I loved this episode. I loved pretty much every word of dialogue and every scene, but mostly I loved every second of the brothers interacting. It felt so much to me like S1, with some brotherly bickering and ribbing, but all underlaid with the almost palpable current of love between them. THAT is what has been missing the past two years. Even when the brothers were seemingly getting along last season, there was never this sense of ease and underlying affection between them. It showcased the remarkable chemistry between the Js. The "bitch/jerk" scene showed what wonderful actors they are, because with just the way they uttered those two words, they conveyed that though they are older now, and their relationship has evolved, deep down they are and always will be the brothers we met 11 years ago. I laughed when Sam displayed his knowledge of that arcane info and Dean gave him that look and teased him about his nerdiness. I couldn't stop smiling after the episode.

Unlike Alice, I've been well aware that poor Sammy hasn't "gotten any" in years, so I was thrilled that he finally got to scratch that itch AND have the first belly laugh (which seemed more like a Jared laugh) he's had in even more years. Hmmm, maybe there's a connection? I also share Alice's love for the Night Moves scene- it is destined to be one of my favorite bro scenes ever. Which reminds me, the music rocked in this ep- literally!

I loved that in what was seemingly going to be purely a MOTW ep there was still some forward movement on the season arc. Again, this reminded me very much of the earlier seasons when the eps beautifully interwove some story arc plot with the MOTW story. I loved Sam's vision scene. Michael would seem the most likely candidate, but why would Michael appear to Sam rather than to Dean? On the other hand, I don't think it would be Lucifer because he was always pretty open and honest with Sam about his intentions and thoughts, so why the pretense here? I like to think it's God, but I'm just throwing my hands up on this one. I especially liked Sam's (belated ) honesty about the visions, and Dean's calm assessment of them, as well as the relative calm with which he took the news about Sam's infection. I hope this is to be the ongoing dynamic between the bros this season.

I agree with Russ that the direction was outstanding. I am most certainly not knowledgeable about the technicalities of directing: to me, it comes down to the scenes being memorable for reasons other than the dialogue, even if I can't articulate why. By that measure, every scene in this ep was outstanding. The director did a phenomenal job with the Baby perspective, from the brothers stretching out and quietly talking to the hilarious fight scenes.

I love the idea of all of the monsters being in a tizzy, even if it's somewhat reminiscent of S6 and Eve. I agree with Bookdal that it would be great to see alpha vamp again.

Of course I have a few teeny issues:

1. It isn't really a knock against this ep, but it's now become clear that the brothers will never have a conversation about all of the crap that happened between them the last two seasons. If they were ever going to have such a conversation, this would have been the ep. Apparently they don't need any closure on those issues. Well, I do!!:D
2. No Dean in shorts, or water fight between the boys? No shirtless Sam in the back of the impala? Come on, RT- we have needs!!!
3. What did the woman say when Sam tried to give her his number?!! I really want to know. In fact, I couldn't really hear Dean's line after that, so if anyone can help me out, what did he say after Sam started telling him that.

If you ignore the last episode (which I'm trying to do:)) this has been the best start to a season in quite awhile. Three outstanding eps and only one clunker. I have not felt this excitement about the show in so long, or this satisfaction from the brothers' relationship that is the cornerstone of the show. I hope so much that it continues.

ETA: on second thought, maybe it is Lucifer in the vision. The first time he ever appeared to Sam it was in the guise of a dead loved one (Jess) so this could be him doing the same thing.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-10-29 08:09
Dean's answer was "We've got tonight Who needs tomorrow?" Which are the words to another Bob Seger song.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 17:55
Thanks Sylvia. Now if I could just find out from RT what the woman said when Sam tried to give her his number. Who the hell would refuse Sam's number? :D
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 18:49
The person who would refuse Sam's number is the same person who looked like she was attempting to seduce his brother!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 18:58
You know what's actually a little sad about the situation? That Sammy is so starved for this type of connection that he would attempt to establish an ongoing (if extremely superficial) relationship with someone who so clearly isn't his type.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 20:00
I see what you mean. It was sad for him to attempt to make something out of a one night stand. Sam does want something real; (except when he is soulless or drinking demon blood.) I guess we can look at the bright side. He is hopeful enough to try.
Jen
# Jen 2015-10-29 08:27
I still believe (canon) we will not get to see Lucifer or Michael Sam is Lucifer's meat suit he needs blood and lots to take Lucifer in (Mike Peligrinno should be dead) & Michael needs Dean because Adam would be dead, so they both would be in their original form Angels / white light/ so I think we are seeing them through visions of people who are dead because this is the only way human's would see them
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-29 09:17
.... unless Lucifer has been cleansed of the affects of the mark that was holding back the darkness, in which case he's no longer tainted, is just an archangel, and therefore demon blood would no longer be required. After all, Lucifer means "Light Bringer" or "Light Bearer" and is also referred to as the Morning Star. That juxtaposes nicely with The Darkness which is why I think Michael and Lucifer will have a role to play in this.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 18:06
Quote:
unless Lucifer has been cleansed of the affects of the mark that was holding back the darkness, in which case he's no longer tainted, is just an archangel,


It would be nice if they actually tied up that whopper of a loose thread regarding the MOC and Lucifer, but I'm not holding my breath.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-29 23:45
I just don't think that makes sense. Lucifer transferred the mark to cain. Cain transferred the mark to dean. it seems that the mark is transferrable to those worthy of receiving it. to transfer means to get rid of it...once it's transferred from one person to another, it's no longer on the person who had it. When Lucifer transferred the mark, I presumed that it was no longer on him. Cain was worthy of the mark therefore he earned the right to wear it. Dean was deemed worthy of the mark, therefore it was transferred off of cain and onto dean.....

I just finished watching abandon all hope....Lucifer had single handedly killed an entire town in order to summon death. Lucifer bore no mark when he committed this horrendous act. He had long since transferred it to cain, yet here was Lucifer the epitome of evil...killing innocents in order to summon death. His goal as affirmed by Crowley to destroy humankind and then when finished wipe out demons as well. Lucifer even tried to convince Cas to side with him...comparing themselves as both being rebels cast out of heaven. Lucifer spoke of Michael and how he was betrayed by him... all of this jealousy, hatred and spite....coming from Lucifer himself....Luci fer who bore no mark ....a Lucifer who gave that mark away thousands of years ago....who had time to get angrier and angrier and grow more vengeful with ea. year he spent in the cage all due to the fact that his father who adored Lucifer most of all, adored humans even more....

so I guess the way it went down was Lucifer was cast out of heaven by Michael when Lucifer wouldn't bow down to humans.....but wasn't sent to the cage until he corrupted his first human....cain.. .cain who he convinced to murder his brother and when he did, lucifer transferred the mark over to him....I don't gather that Lucifer can corrupt cain and give him the mark while in prison....once Lucifer corrupted the first human and created the first murderer, that's when I assumed he was put in the cage as punishment.... of course thanks to Lucifer, humans were thus tainted forever....the only reason cain got to live...in the world of spn of course....is because he bore the lock to the darkness....onc e cain was released from the mark, he was free to die....somethin g he might very well have welcomed given that his punishment was immortality as a knight of hell no less.......

here's a notion....given that i'm not on board with either Lucifer or Michael being responsible for sam's visions.....I wouldn't think it out of the realm of possibility that it could be cain....I don't see cain as being allowed to get into heaven....unles s of course he does a little penance. look I still think God does listen and does in fact help the Winchesters.... I think a lot of times he does it through others....so maybe if it's not God himself sending the visions....it's someone who's doing it for him....wouldn't it be a blast if it was cain....:D

My secret wish is that it's Gabriel.....;)
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-30 00:08
Your right. Thank you for reminding us that Lucifer is evil with or without the MOC. Interesting thought: If Lucifer is still evil after the MOC transferred to Cain and Cain still came back for the slaughter after he transferred the mark to Dean..... where does that leave Dean? Is he tainted for life?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 07:12
Cain transferred the MOC to Dean but he still retained it. It was still on his arm in the scene where he transported Dean and Crowley out of the house and took out all the demons. Remember Death said two had to bear it at the same time? But that is where it got stupid. So when God gave his most trusted, Lucifer, the lock and key was it the mark as we know it? Then we are informed that in time the mark revealed itself to be a curse which caused Lucifer to turn against God. More time passes (I'm assuming) and Lucifer tries to corrupt Abel which is stopped because of Cains sacrifice/killi ng Abel to send him to Heaven and the MOC is born. So now both Lucifer and Cain bear the MOC/lock and key(?) because according to Death two must bear it at the same time. Cain transfers to Dean so what(?) now there's three? Then Cain is killed by Dean so we're back to two (if we are still going by Deaths claim). Once the spell was cast, the MOC/curse was removed. Maybe that's what caused the scream from the cage because Lucifer knew the lock/key was no more as he also bore the mark? I don't know about you guys but this story doesn't make a lot of sense. I'll be curious how they write around it.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 07:50
Editing my above musings... nevermind. ;) Except for my statement that Cain still retained the MOC once transferred to Dean.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-11-01 19:00
Thanks for setting me straight that Cain still held the MOC after the transfer to Dean. I have no idea how I missed that. Perhaps because the whole MOC story is so muddled on multiple levels. This story- line stopped making sense to me awhile ago. The MOC/ Blade made Dean ill if he did not kill and then would have killed him. Then Dean was resurrected as a supposed demon by the MOC with the Blade in his hand. I found it murky whether or not Dean was a demon. There was that conversation between Crowley and Dean that if Dean did not keep killing, the MOC would turn Dean into a Demon, so he wasn't a full Demon BUT...Sam had to cure Dean with demon blood cure so he had demon illness? Then we had to figure out whether Dean was still Dean or a demon like dean and whether he would kill his brother. THEN the story ended with the big flip to the MOC being the lock and key to the Darkness. So, yeah, it has been artfully written to keep all options open without any straight forward canon and it is easy to get a bit lost.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-30 10:25
No, Cain still carried the Mark even after transferring it to Dean. What we don't know is whether Lucifer still carried it, which would make no sense because Dean could have been killed because Lucifer still carried the Mark so The Darkness would NOT have been released, unless Rowena invoking the spell from the BoTD removed the Mark from Dean AND Lucifer. And round and round we go - they never did a good job of clearing all this up.

You've put together an interesting sequence with Lucifer but I think a lot of it hinges on whether Lucifer still carried the Mark or not, and we just don't have enough information yet.

The fact that "John" told Sam that he never could fool him led me to believe it is either Lucifer or Gabriel. This wouldn't be something God would say, and Sam has had very limited interaction with Michael. After all, Lucifer did appear to Sam as Jessica in a dream in S5. And we all know how much Gabriel liked to mess with Sam and Dean, particularly Sam. But, then again, if Michael OR Lucifer had the ability to reach Sam or Dean with "visions", I imagine that both of them would have been messing with Sam and Dean all along.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-30 17:12
You make a good point that God would not say that he could not fool Sam because God would technically not want to fool anyone. But this is the SPN version of God. I think God is involved directly and he could have resurrected and sent Gabriel because that statement of not being able to fool Sam does point to him. No matter what, I still don't think it is Lucifer or Michael because they are making their noise in the cage.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-30 17:57
Quote:
Sam has had very limited interaction with Michael
Except Sam spent possibly centuries in the cage with Michael. All we know is that both Lucifer and Michael were taking their frustrations out on him. We do know that Gabriel has tried to "fool" the Winchesters before. With the Darkness coming maybe Gabriel is trying to reach out to Sam from the "Empty" where I would assume angels might go after they die.

Somehow I see the solution is going to be for the first time that we lose both brothers at the end of this season. Depending on if we get a S12 or a movie we may have a long summer ahead of us.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-01 07:53
Quote:
Somehow I see the solution is going to be for the first time that we lose both brothers at the end of this season.


This is what kinda worries me Cheryl. The plot this year seems so huge and all-encompassin g, since it involves the ultimate "big bad" and it certainly appears that it will involve God and the archangels. It really sound like a series-ending story, because where do they go from here? What's left to fight after they resolve the D issue? Wendigos and ghosts and ghoulpires? :) Unless they're going to accordion this story into next season. (Which also worries me because the last story arc that they accordioned into two seasons was pretty badly executed IMO). So in the back of my mind I keep thinking that TPTB suspect that this will be the last season, possibly because the Js want to be with their families more now that the kids are getting older. I really want to be wrong about this.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-30 20:42
Before there was light, before there was God and the archangels, there wasn't nothing.

There was the Darkness, a horribly destructive, amoral force that was beaten back by God and his archangels in a terrible war.

God locked the Darkness away where it could do no harm, and he created a Mark that would serve as both lock and key, which he entrusted to his most valued Lieutenant, Lucifer.

But the Mark began to assert its own will, revealed itself as a curse, and began to corrupt. Lucifer became jealous of man.

God banished Lucifer to Hell.

Lucifer passed the Mark to Cain, who passed the Mark to you, the proverbial finger in the dike.


this is an excerpt that I copy and pasted from the brother's keeper transcript. According to this transcript, Lucifer had the mark which is both lock and key and he transferred it to cain.....once transferred, the mark is no longer on Lucifer....then death says that cain transferred it to dean....who is now the proverbial finger in the dike. according to death....once the mark is transferred it's gone....that's why death told dean that if he wanted to get rid of it he had to find someone to give it to....so Lucifer has been evil without the mark....once he transferred the mark, Lucifer wasn't untainted and suddenly became the beloved and trusted angel he once was....he continued to wreak havoc on humanity....

in regards to Lucifer contacting sam and the whole vessel thing...as noted elsewhere....I find it quite a stretch to think that in the 6 years that Lucifer was trapped in hell...with all the time he had and all that anger and hate just building up...I can't quite get past the notion that if Lucifer could've contacted sam he wouldn't have already....give n what we know of Lucifer I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have psychically tortured sam first thing when sam was rescued from the cage....

I believe all roads will eventually lead to the cage....I just, and until show proves otherwise, I just don't buy Lucifer or Michael giving sam his visions......

I find it more plausible that it's God, or God's mouthpiece or Gabriel.....hel l i'd even buy Ash finding a way to contact Sam....that at least I can make sense out of. :D
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 21:51
Cain transferred the mark but he still retained it. That was clearly shown in the scene where he destroyed all the trapped demons in the house. Death said that he could remove the MOC but only if Dean would agree to give it to another. Death did not say "Hey, if you transfer the MOC you will be free of it yourself!" If it were that easy for Dean to rid himself of the MOC by just transferring it to someone else then there would never have been a need for Death to tell Dean HE would remove it as it wouldn't be necessary. Plus if Cain no longer bore the MOC he wouldn't have been drawn once more to the First Blade as it would have been nothing more to him than just a hunk of bone with teeth.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-30 22:45
death used the term>>passed it on to you...not transferred, transferred is my word. Dean didn't know, not until death told him that he can't be killed and that the mark can only be removed if dean passed it on to someone else...he refused, saying he would never do that.

CAIN

I can give you the mark, Dean, if it's what you truly want.




DEAN

What are you talking about?




CAIN

The mark can be transferred to someone who's worthy.




DEAN

You mean a killer like you?




CAIN

Yes.




DEAN

Can I use it to kill that bitch?




CAIN

Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.




DEAN

Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at "kill the bitch".




CAIN

Good luck, Dean. You're gonna to need it.




DEAN

Yeah, I get that a lot. Let's dance.




[CAIN grasps DEAN's right forearm with his and a line of red veins spread from CAIN's mark to burn an identical mark on DEAN's forearm. DEAN gasps in pain as the mark disappears from CAIN's arm.]






That's from First Blood transcript. Cain didn't have the mark once he passed it onto dean. It disappeared.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-31 00:11
No it didn't. It was clearly still on his arm after the transfer was completed. Go look at the scene where he pushes the sleeves of his shirt up while preparing to take on all the demons in the room. That scene was very specific to show that he still bore the MOC. Also as I said, if Cain were no longer a bearer of the MOC he wouldn't have cared less about the First Blade anymore because without the MOC it is "just a hunk of bone with teeth."

Dean knew Cain was immortal. The only way to kill him was by another MOC bearer using the First Blade. The same with Dean. Dean also knew he couldn't die before he summoned Death. He told Sam (when discussing Charlie's death) that he couldn't die. He also told the Stynes that if they flatlined him that he'd be back, that he could not die. Death said that he (Death) could kill him but would only do so if there were someone else to bear the mark.

I can pass on a virus but still be infected. ;)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-11-01 12:15
There's an entire sequence in 10.14 Executioner's Song that indicates that Cain still carried the Mark after he "transferred" it to Dean; they both carried it at the same time.

CASTIEL What have you done?
CAIN These bodies? Just cleaning up a mess I made a long time ago.
CASTIEL Cain, I know what you were. But you'd resisted for so long.
CAIN What can I say? I got the taste back. With Abaddon's army gunning for me, I had to take up arms again, and I liked how it felt.
CASTIEL Those were demons. These... [Cains crouches down and picks up a muddy stuffed teddy bear]
CAIN Humans. Eh, the Mark thirsts for all kinds.
CASTIEL This is a massacre.
CAIN Yes. And soon it'll be a genocide. [Cain drops the bear] My children, my whole poisoned issue. A lot of them out there right now ... killers, fighters, thieves, some more peaceful than others. But they still carry it ... the disease. If the Mark wants blood, I'll give it mine.

and... later in the same episode

DEAN When he gave me the Mark, Cain said that this day would come, that after I killed Abaddon, I would have to come and put him down.
SAM Great. So you're taking orders from a madman.
DEAN No, he wasn't mad then. Cain resisted the Mark for a long time, then I came, kicking up trouble about the Blade. I sent him down this path. This is on me.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-11-01 14:08
Jonny on the Spot !!!!! :):):):)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-01 15:12
To me this underscores one of the core problems with the whole MoC storyline; the parameters were not clearly set up. Cain was able to pass on the Mark to Dean but still kept it. Why? Dean was going to have to give it to someone else, but it would be removed from him by Death. Why was it different for Dean than for Cain? Lucifer passed on the Mark to Cain and it was insinuated that he does not have it now. Why not? I am dearly hoping that if/when we see Lucifer again that he is not suddenly and inexplicably bearing the Mark of Cain. That would be the worlds worst and most awkward ret-con.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-11-01 16:53
Exactly !!! I had posted something about this on the discussion boards during hellatus and there's just no clear answer. My guess is that Jeremy Carver did this because he wasn't sure where things were going and wanted to leave himself some wiggle room.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-01 17:02
and if Lucifer still bears the mark, if it was shared and not completely transferred.... how can the darkness be released? Lucifer was the original lock and key....he's still alive.....so how can the darkness have been released?

and if Lucifer did transfer the mark and no longer bears it....then why does he care if the darkness is released at all? If anything...Luci should be doing the happy dance down in the cage...laughing his ass off at the fact that the very thing God had fought to keep at bay is now roaming free once again....that the very thing god tried to stop can now happen...I would think this would tickle Lucifer to no end...a big screw you to his father who banished him to the cage.....

that's another reason why I can't put my head around Lucifer trying to summon sam....I see no reason for it....

but Lucifer was in part responsible for helping to contain the darkness....so I can see someone/somethi ng else giving sam clues that will lead him to Lucifer.....

maybe dean never saw death at the saloon and it was an moc induced vision....sam noted there were consequences, but we never really knew what they were....is it possible that the whole moc/darkness will be released spiel that came from death was a vision created by Rowena? that she in fact released the darkness herself using a spell? that the botd and the codex together in Rowena's hands were the actual consequences? that the whole lock and key story is just that...a story to cover her tracks?

what you think that's too much?:D:
thanks for the due diligence nj....forgot about that part. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 18:05
I know that logically there is no way they can/should show Lucifer as Mark P or Michael as Adam or young John. But they will have to show them as something other than white light or people will get pissy! As visions they can take any form without violating canon, but I agree that if they intend to show the archangels in an actual meatsuit, the TPTB will have to at least try to justify the form that they take to make it fit with what has happened in the past. Personally, I would love it if they said screw canon and just got Mark P back!
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-29 19:38
Now wouldn't it be funny if Nick survived? :D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 19:51
Yet it seems unlikely since when last seen he was a corpse rotting on the floor in Detroit!
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-29 19:53
He was just.. breathing veeeery slowly >.>
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 20:25
:D:D
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 20:27
Funny!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 22:46
Actually YES, now that I think about it, they never definitively said Nick was really dead. Cas just said he needed to drink copious amounts of blood to hold Lucifer, and we knew that the meatsuit was deteriorating. But it was never said or shown that he was in fact dead. So maybe Mark P can come back without it being an enormous violation of canon! Yay!!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-29 20:25
Or Lucifer could just reappear using Nicks old form as Anna did once her body had been obliterated when she took her grace back. If they really want to bring Mark P. back they will, as Jean Luc Piccard says, "make it so" ;)

I'm also reading elsewhere speculation that Gabriel was Dream!John, but I don't buy that because he did trick/fool Sam in the past... unless they ignore all that history then Lucifer still makes the most sense.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-30 18:00
Anna and Castiel have both re used their vessels. Why not Lucifer and Michael.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-30 23:19
Truthfully I've decided that the canon on the status of vessels is rather murky. But I thought Cas was able to reuse his vessel after it exploded only because God miraculously reassembled it. And did we know for sure that Anna's vessel exploded when she reacquired her grace? Clearly a vessel doesn't always explode when an angel possesses it (although that was unfortunately not the case for some of Buddy Boyle's followers!) In the case of Raphael, it was implied that he HAD to switch to the female vessel after Balthazar turned his old vessel to dust. And Lucifer indicated that Nick was not destined to last long term as his vessel since he was not strong enough to contain him. As far as Adam, his vessel seemingly should not have been available to Michael after Cas molotoved it, yet somehow Michael managed to retain that form. As with so many other things on the show, canon has been a bit inconsistent. Which is a very long way of saying that I'm not sure how to answer your question.:D
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-31 00:15
With Anna yes because she herself told Cas she called in some favors in order to get it back. I can't remember the exact conversation but I believe Cas says something like 'Your vessel, it was destroyed...' I think it was a scene was On The Head Of A Pin.
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-29 11:38
Good catch with Jess.
The I could never fool you is flattery. Only Lucifer tries to trick people into possession or actions. Michael was pretty straight up with
Dean. It's definitely not God. God would not announce it. It would happen when needed like the plane rescue.

The God works in mysterious ways also seems like Lucifer. He's making Sam believe he's God without lying. Of course Lucifer wants out of the cage. Who wouldn't.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 20:28
I've now changed my mind several times about who it is. there are drawbacks to each theory, as well as evidence in favor. All I know is that I've generally been proven wrong about my theories!
E
# E 2015-10-30 12:28
Actually, wasn't it Lucifer who said to Sam "I'll never trick you, and I'll never lie." Lucifer, ironically was the most honest and straight forward of the bunch. We saw how even Castiel manipulated Jimmy into "volunteering" to be his vessel by using his own daughter against him, we saw Raphael essentially take people by force and then burn them out at a tremendous rate. Michael had Zachariah working on Dean to force his consent for months and months.... he just didn't succeed in getting it which is one of the reasons that Zachariah was so unpleasant most of the time. It always struck me as odd how 'honest' Lucifer was in his dealings with Sam. He never tricked him or coerced him in any way and when Sam finally said yes, it was completely of his own free will, which is more than Jimmy Novack can say.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-30 13:35
Yesssssssssssssss.
So maybe Luci CAN'T LIE to his True Vessel, because we all have heard the term, "The Devil is a liar." ;);)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 16:32
Raphael as an Angel could not force, essentially or otherwise, someone. Only a demon can do that.

Lucifer also tried to fool or deceive Sam at least once that I can recall, tho there may be more, when he first appeared to Sam as Jessica.

The other possible would be Gabriel even tho Dream!Johns words would be odd in that respect - 'I never could fool you, could I?' - when he actually repeatedly did and quite successfully. Unless he was referring to Sam figuring out it was him and not Bobby in Mystery Spot. Michael never tried to fool Sam, nor did God. Besides Lucifer or Gabriel no one else makes any sense.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-01 15:15
Well... true enough. I guess I meant the kind of dubious "consent" that angels are known for. It was insinuated that Raphael in particular was very hard on his vessels and found a way to get the ones he wanted.. then burned through them quick.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-01 19:04
And didn't that seem like it was intentional because of the disdain Raphael had for humans? Remember when Dean asked if that was what he had to look forward to and Cas said 'No, for you it will be much worse'? But then Michael said when he was done with Dean that he promised he willdn't leave him a drooling mess. Both were Archangels so you would think that they each had the option or ability if they so chose to leave their vessels intact. Friggin' angels. ;)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-03 09:19
Yes, everything you say is true. It goes back to my original point which is out of all the Archangels we've seen, Lucifer is in fact the most honest and gentle with his vessels. He brought Nick along for quite a while considering that Nick wasn't really strong enough to hold Lucifer, and with Sam he was very gentle, promising to never harm him, lie to him or trick him. I just find it kind of weird and ironic that the worst of the worst of all the angels was the most considerate when it came to his vessels. This was in regards to PSG saying that only Lucifer tries to trick his vessels which isn't true, despite briefly appearing as Jess to locate Sam, he never lied to Sam and morphed into Nick so that Sam knew exactly who he was talking to before he told him anything specific about being his vessel.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 17:22
I loved EVERYTHING about this episode and can easily put it in the top 5. Congrats to ALL! I think one episode per season should be from Baby's POV as she is a main character and the leading lady. I agree with your thoughts. I loved seeing the closeness of the boys, and their true companionship, affection and love being presented. It had everything I want in an SPN episode, brothers communicating , real monsters, movement on the myth arc, action, intrigue, big questions, good acting by guest stars, humor, great dialogue. Random thoughts: I think the extra's who did make an appearance in this episode were important and appropriate. Meaning, John was represented and Castiel who is an honorary family member was there helping out; although I am glad he did not appear in person. I loved how the character Mrs. Marken was concerned for her monster family and when she was back to normal her first thought were for her children. I note that when she mentioned her children, Dean immediately thought of Sam and said his name. This reinforces how Dean will always see himself, no matter what as Sam's protector in a fatherly way. I loved how they all: Sam, Dean, and Baby were beat up but kept going together. I loved the shot of the sun coming through the back windshield as they were driving and laughing; it was beautiful and symbolic; something Jensen commented on that he thought worked. It was a good way to show the monsters are fearful of the Darkness too. I also hope this means we will see Alpha Vamp- great character. I liked how the roles were reversed a bit- Sam got the girl well at least for the night, and was flirting in the store, while Dean was getting pummeled. Also, saw smart Dean. I loved how all the items that were needed were left in the car and held safe by Baby... hair pin, knife, pennies in the purse. I liked how Hello Kitty made an appearance in an SPN ep! I agree that we do have our needs :) and seeing the boys at least a little wet through the windshield would have been awesome. Other observations that were cool: The beer sign on the Roadhouse was El Sol a call back to Dean's imaginary girlfriend Carmen in 2.20 What Is and What Should never Be. The netflix shout out was a good way to thank them.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 18:21
Quote:
It had everything I want in an SPN episode, brothers communicating , real monsters, movement on the myth arc, action, intrigue, big questions, good acting by guest stars, humor, great dialogue.

I couldn't possibly come up with a better summary of this episode!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 17:32
I think that we were not wrong in placing too much emphasis on the fact Sam stated that he did not think God was far away. He had this "visit" and it could be God. When Sam was relaying the vision to Dean, did say that maybe whatever the opposite of the Darkness (God) is sending him messages. And during this conversation, thunder could be heard in the background." Last time we heard thunder the boys cracked open the word of God.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 18:16
I keep going back and forth on who the man really was. My original thought was God, in response to Sam's prayer, because of the unlikelihood that either archangel could so easily contact anyone from the cage. Then I thought maybe it is Lucifer since he had previously appeared in Sam's dream as a dead loved one (maybe God is permitting this seemingly impossible contact?). Then after reading your longer comment up above you have convinced me (pretty much!:)) that it really was God. Regardless of who it is, I'm really excited about all of the possibilities and can't wait for it all to unfold. I just hope that they keep giving us continuing dribs and drabs of Sam's visions, rather than dropping that plot for episodes at a time.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 18:56
No matter who it is at least we have an intriguing thought provoking story line! I share your hope that we get continual clues in each episode until the big reveal. But njspnfan is right. The road does lead to the cage.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-29 21:46
Lucifer appeared to sam when he was on earth....prior to that, Lucifer had been trapped in the cage and the only one who was able to speak to him was yed...and that was when he found the church and killed all the nuns....prior to that, Lucifer did not have the ability to contact the above world. also, given that the angels wanted the apocalypse and was very helpful in Lucifer's escape, one can only wonder if the reason yed was able to contact Lucifer was because he had a little help from the angels in the first place... just saying.....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 22:55
Quote:
the only one who was able to speak to him was yed...and that was when he found the church and killed all the nuns.
I generally agree with this sugarhi, which is why my first thought was God or a vision sent by God- and that is my current opinion. But it was implied that Lucifer had somehow communicated with YED prior to him slaughtering the nuns, because he said something like "I did what you asked. I got you a roomful of nuns." Maybe a demon in hell had fewer hurdles to overcome in order to communicate with someone in the cage. In any event, I think if it does turn out to be Lucifer who appeared to Sam (which I now think is unlikely for most of the reasons you laid out), it was only through God's intervention that it was allowed to happen.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 07:23
In Free To Be You And Me, Cas said that 'there's almost an open line between a vessel and his Angel. One just has to know how to dial.' So Cas knows how Sam can contact Lucifer. There's nothing on the show yet that has specifically stated that Lucifer is unable to contact Sam from the cage. That all remains to be seen.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-30 07:45
The "open line" quote is intriguing. And I agree that it has never been expressly stated that communication with someone in the cage is impossible. But if Lucy could communicate with Sam, wouldn't he have been doing so all along to torment him with visions or dreams? He had to have been extremely angry and frustrated when Death rescued Sam's soul from the cage. And the guy has nothing but time on his hands! So why wouldn't he have utilized this "open line" continually over the past few years? If it was Lucy in the vision, they had better explain this. (I would love it if it were Lucy, but it doesn't really add up at this point)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 18:33
Oh I had forgotten about that thunder in the background!! At the time it caught my attention. I doubt that was coincidental.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 18:59
There was a lot of sound effects while they were talking. Crickets, trains, thunder. Yikes! What does that mean? :)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 19:12
Crickets and trains are always harbingers of doom!! LOL
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 20:30
Quote:
Crickets and trains are always harbingers of doom!!
I'd love to see that on a bumper sticker!:D
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-29 22:13
Sounds like a line from a country western song. "Ohhhhh crickiiits and trains..." ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 22:56
Or maybe.....the basis of a caption? :D
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-30 00:35
Don't encourage her!! She already has a caption "problem":D
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 21:53
Is there an ointment for that? ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-30 23:17
CAPsaicin ointment maybe...eases the pain of withdrawal from the heatbreak of caption disease. :D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-30 23:25
I don't know, Dr. Leah. I thought lobotomy was the prescribed treatment for captionitis extremis. Report to the OR immediately, Alycat!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-30 23:41
I might have to advise a second opinion on that one Dr. Demento. Captionitis Extremis... love it! It sounds very doctory. :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-31 00:19
Uhm, if it's all the same to you guys? I think I'll just go and get a third opinion... *backs slowly away, closing the door afterwards*
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 07:39
Hmmmm... now that you mention it. Nate!!! We have our next photo to caption!!! It'll be greattttt!!!

You laugh and tease but you know what's sick? The fact that when you guys said "basis for" and "don't encourage her", I agreed with you that it would be a good one to caption and already had two pop into my head. I'm sick. I know that now. I gave up on the Captioners Anonymous Twelve Step program when I got to the one where I had to apologize to everyone I ever hurt or offended. I mean yeah, I'm willing to but I got a bit overwhelmed when I realized how many posters on this site alone so I said the Hell with it and am embracing my "vice" with open arms. If you need me, I'll be over in that corner, thinking. ;)
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-30 00:13
You all think this funny now; just fun and games.... but wait till the darkness comes and those crickets and trains go rogue. ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-30 00:38
Rouge crickets!! The horror!! The Humanity!! :o :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 07:14
I'd have to go back and look at that particular scene but wasn't it raining then too?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-11-01 17:01
Whoever these visions are from, I think God is for lack of a better term "facilitating" them. I might be a little fuzzy on this, and correct me if I'm wrong, but all angels don't hear your prayers, only if you send a prayer out to all angels like Dean did at the start of S9 when his prayer to Castiel went unanswered. So, if Sam prayed to God, could angels or archangels even hear that prayer? And, whoever appeared to Sam as John Winchester told Sam he could never fool him so that leads you to believe it could be Gabriel or Lucifer. And, as has been mentioned by myself and others, I don't think Michael or Lucifer could even respond from the cage, otherwise they would have been messing with Sam and/or Dean since Death retrieved Sam's soul. Unless God is somehow facilitating this. It will be interesting to see where this leads but the cage and its current inhabitants will play a part in it.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-29 08:16
A great episode all the way around; well written, well acted, well directed, and the camera work was amazing; and a wonderful concept in shooting the episode from Baby's perspective. I would go so far as to say that this episode should be submitted for Emmy consideration.

And, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there was any music in this episode, other than what was being played from Dean's cassette collection.

Baby is one tough old broad and the three of them still make a great team. The long scenes between the brothers were well written and didn't feel forced, as it often has in the past few seasons. Sam and Dean singing along to Night Moves will make the highlight reels. Dean's fight scene with the ghoulpires was cleverly choreographed and well executed. And, miraculously, Sam got laid and the woman didn't die. Considering the circumstances, both brothers appear to be in a good place right now and that hasn't been the case in a very long time.

A minor quibble; given Sam's history of visions in earlier seasons, I was a little surprised Dean did not raise any major concerns/red flags when Sam told him about his visions/dreams.

As far as Sam's dreams and visions, my initial thought was, if Michael or Lucifer could "reach" Sam or Dean from the cage, they would have been tormenting the brothers since Death retrieved Sam's soul from the cage in S6. I do think God has a hand in this and is facilitating these visions but will save that discussion for Nightsky's next Threads article.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 18:40
Quote:
I would go so far as to say that this episode should be submitted for Emmy consideration.
I had the same thought last night. I think it's a travesty that SPN is never nominated, because I truly believe that the best SPN episodes represent the best of television, period.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 19:00
I join you both.... Emmy winning episode last night!
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-29 19:55
Quote:
A minor quibble; given Sam's history of visions in earlier seasons, I was a little surprised Dean did not raise any major concerns/red flags when Sam told him about his visions/dreams.
Indeed. I thought for sure Dean would think his powers had manifested once again.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-29 08:16
oops - double posted
MindiWynne
# MindiWynne 2015-10-29 08:56
The only part that I disliked about the episode was the conversation about "The Life" and the discussion about whether or not they wanted something different. How many times can the guys have that same conversation? They have each had a taste of normal life - Dean was with Lisa and Sam was with Amelia. They both had the opportunity to stay with it, they both walked away from domestic bliss and went back to hunting. So every season, when they have the conversation, it gets old.

I was thrilled to death to hear them refer to each other as "Jerk" and "Bitch". It's been way too long...

And Dean getting his ass kicked while Sam collected pennies just cracked me up... It was a good episode. I liked it.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 13:43
Hi MindiWynne, "The Life" talks don't bother me. I think that even though they have come to grips with the realities of their life it still reminds us that they, especially Sam, still have a small flicker of hope that they could have some close connections to other people and normalcy in their lives someday. It's always kind of bittersweet.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-29 18:27
I agree Leah. and I think the main reason Dean brought it up is because he wishes so much that Sam can have that life someday. I think he doesn't want Sam to give up on it, even more so than Dean wants to hang onto that hope for himself.
E
# E 2015-10-30 12:38
Agree with Leah and SanD. Just because you've been thwarted in your dream does not mean you give up the dream. It's realistic to go back over this same ground, that's what people do even if that chance of achieving that dream is getting slimmer and slimmer. I WANT Sam and Dean to have those dreams; I want to know that they are still hoping. How dreary would their life be without them?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-31 06:53
Quote:
I WANT Sam and Dean to have those dreams; I want to know that they are still hoping. How dreary would their life be without them?
Me too. Without those dreams, they would probably end up like poor "mostly OK Martin."
galen
# galen 2015-10-29 10:08
Incredible, engaging, moving, funny, captivating. Best scene, Sam and "John" conversation. Is this God sending a message through dreams? The bible uses dreams as messages or warnings. Using an image of Sam's father to represent the father. This scene could be diseased and discussed forever. That is brilliant writing.
galen
# galen 2015-10-29 10:10
Meant dissected not diseased.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-29 16:07
excellent episode. totally loved every minute.

i don't think it was michael or lucifer talking to sam or giving him his visions....but based on "you boys have to stop it".....that was very reminiscent of zach telling dean he had to stop the apocalypse. cas used those exact words as well....it felt very much like an angelic warning....but not the ones in the cage as i still think messages cannot be sent from the cage, whether the darkness was released or not. I do think that lucifer and michael are freaking out in the cage....but not more than that. however, whether it's actually God, coming to sam in a visage he would listen to, or another angel doing so, i do agree that all roads do lead to the cage...and i do feel like it's a friendly entity more than anything else.

angels seem to use dreams as a form of contact...we've seen it before. and i found it interesting, given that sam spoke of dreaming of his mom, that in his vision he would be visited by the form of his father....seems to illustrate that it was in fact a vision and not a dream...the message that God helps those who help themselves....s eemed like that was more of a message for the boys...that the way to beat this is to work together...to keep at it...that God isn't necessarily not going to help....as a matter of fact, in swan song..i thought God helped very much...it was the boys love and their perseverance to keep fighting that ultimately beat the devil...but it was the light...the light from the heavens...that shone upon that little army man so that sam could recall the love he has for his brother so they could win....in essence....god helped the boys who helped themselves....

so i'm not ruling out God in this scenario appearing in the form of the father...;) my other secret hope is that it's actually gabriel....:) no matter who it is...i don't think it's evil and i don't think it's anyone from the cage....but that's just me. ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-29 16:53
Hi anna. I don't see Michael as evil, and if Lucifer is altered due to his Mark possibly disappearing, neither is he. They are both angels. I do feel whoever used the form of his father so that Sam might be more receptive underestimated Sam. All indications are that the cage is going to be important to the outcome. It may indeed be God but he hasn't overtly gotten involved up to this point, it doesn't seem like his style. But who knows at this point? Part of the fun is not knowing where this is all headed.:)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-01 11:41
leah, it just doesn't make sense to me.

if Lucifer had the mark originally, then the assumption I thought was that as he cursed man...he gave the mark to cain....Lucifer no longer bore the mark it was totally off of him. Otherwise, if it was simply transferred from Lucifer and he still retained it....then the darkness should never have been able to be released, because Lucifer is still alive and still retains the original mark...

so if the darkness is able to be released, doesn't it stand to reason that Lucifer, once he gave the mark to cain no longer retains it himself....

given that to be the case..which I kind of feel like it is , cuz otherwise how can the darkness be released according to death in the first place? then Lucifer is bad ....it has nothing to do with the mark, because he wouldn't be bearing the mark. he's just evil....that mark was gone and he continued to wreak havoc on humanity... I just don't imagine him being good. I don't know that even spn would go that far and change the basis of the very nature of the devil...

i still can't get passed why Lucifer would even care if the darkness was released...i know he fought it.. but given that i find it implausible that Lucifer has the mark....the release of the darkness really shouldn't matter to him one way or the other...unless he wants out simply to join forces with it..or he wants it destroyed so that when he feels he gets out he doesn't have competition...f or whatever reason...i don't think Lucifer would do anything out of goodness......

but you all make a good point about Lucifer once upon a time being an angel....the light bearer....

so what if Lucifer helps in a different way...

sam is faithful. he believes in God. he's good....he believes in the light at the end of the tunnel....he offered to show dean...as a matter of fact, the last three years it's pretty much been pointed out that Sam is in essence Dean's light...so to speak...

sam had to be born. sam is the true vessel of Lucifer...the light bearer....so perhaps that will tie into getting rid of the darkness...whet her it be destroying her or containing her once again....maybe the way in which Lucifer helps...is to point out to sam...or have it pointed out to sam....that it is light that conquers darkness....and it's up to sam .....and dean to be that light... that i could see would be where Lucifer plays his part....and actually in a good way....

but Lucifer actually turning over a new leaf....i don't know if i can buy into that....they'd really have to do a grandiose job of convincing on that.:D

what do u think?
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-01 11:41
leah, it just doesn't make sense to me.

if Lucifer had the mark originally, then the assumption I thought was that as he cursed man...he gave the mark to cain....Lucifer no longer bore the mark it was totally off of him. Otherwise, if it was simply transferred from Lucifer and he still retained it....then the darkness should never have been able to be released, because Lucifer is still alive and still retains the original mark...

so if the darkness is able to be released, doesn't it stand to reason that Lucifer, once he gave the mark to cain no longer retains it himself....

given that to be the case..which I kind of feel like it is , cuz otherwise how can the darkness be released according to death in the first place? then Lucifer is bad ....it has nothing to do with the mark, because he wouldn't be bearing the mark. he's just evil....that mark was gone and he continued to wreak havoc on humanity... I just don't imagine him being good. I don't know that even spn would go that far and change the basis of the very nature of the devil...

i still can't get passed why Lucifer would even care if the darkness was released...i know he fought it.. but given that i find it implausible that Lucifer has the mark....the release of the darkness really shouldn't matter to him one way or the other...unless he wants out simply to join forces with it..or he wants it destroyed so that when he feels he gets out he doesn't have competition...f or whatever reason...i don't think Lucifer would do anything out of goodness......

but you all make a good point about Lucifer once upon a time being an angel....the light bearer....

so what if Lucifer helps in a different way...

sam is faithful. he believes in God. he's good....he believes in the light at the end of the tunnel....he offered to show dean...as a matter of fact, the last three years it's pretty much been pointed out that Sam is in essence Dean's light...so to speak...

sam had to be born. sam is the true vessel of Lucifer...the light bearer....so perhaps that will tie into getting rid of the darkness...whet her it be destroying her or containing her once again....maybe the way in which Lucifer helps...is to point out to sam...or have it pointed out to sam....that it is light that conquers darkness....and it's up to sam .....and dean to be that light... that i could see would be where Lucifer plays his part....and actually in a good way....

but Lucifer actually turning over a new leaf....i don't know if i can buy into that....they'd really have to do a grandiose job of convincing on that.:D

what do u think?
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-29 18:15
I agree with you. It is not Lucifer or Michael. I am leaning towards God but it may be a direct messenger of God and if we look at the Bible for messengers it would be Gabriel! In SPN world it may be Joshua. He gave the boys a message before. The boys always help themselves so God will help them if the message is true. I agree that whoever it is, is coming from a good place and not to manipulate like Zachariah.
Shante
# Shante 2015-10-29 16:22
hi, loved the episode. just need the songs played so i can search them and add them to my spotify playlist
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-29 19:37
11 minutes in and there's STILL boat loads of time left? Yes! So much is happening in this episode! Another vision, Matt returns as John. Sam tells Dean the vision AND about being infected? Too much to handle and its only 15 min in!

Speaking of Matt I applaud him. He played John so well! I loved that scene! No wait, I loved EVERY scene!

This new monster is intriguing and a nice refreshment from the usual. The fight scenes were funny and great t o watch! I liked how they had to use coins before killing it too.

I'm still brimming with excitement over that episode! Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I was thoroughly entertained every minute. This is definitely one of my top 5 episodes. What a treat compared to last weeks. Just wow..
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-30 00:17
Quote:
I liked how they had to use coins before killing it too.
I also thought it was great that Dean had to dig them out of a HELLO KITTY purse!
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-29 20:31
Thou quotest the bravest and most handsome Star Fleet captain that ever lived. I always tell my husband to make it so.
Thompson forgot his own canon last night so I am not holding my breath that he will uphold show canon. In Metafiction Metatron gave Cas a pop culture upgrade. He should know about Orange is the new Black.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-10-30 00:22
Thompson gets a pass like Swayze, because he gave us this episode.
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-30 07:35
Alycat, Death meant there needed to be someone else in order for him to kill Dean. One bearer must be left alive. One living bearer works fine.
Yes Cain didn't lose the Mark when he transferred it.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 07:47
Ah, okay then that makes sense. So then Lucifer twisted the lock and key into The MOC and handed it over to Cain knowing that Cain would never die. Unless of course he could summon Death and make Death his bitch like a certain Dean Winchester. ;) How'd I get that twisted in my head? You're right tho because Death said he'd only remove it if Dean passed it on which he refused and would never do.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-30 07:52
Alycat, You're right about the open conduit between meat suit and angel. Sam's prayer might gave been enough because it's been established that angels hear prayers.
Lucifer wouldn't gain by tormenting Sam because Sam was his best way out. Now that Sam is desperate, he knows he can trap him.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-30 08:02
Interesting. I know if I were stuck there I'd want out! ;) I don't quite buy yet that Lucifer is going to be straight up evil if he does escape or has the chance to talk to Sam. I mean maybe he will seek redemption of sorts now that his story (and why he turned against God) is known?
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-30 08:34
Musings are fine in my book.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-30 13:52
Nola, As I recall the supernatural Lucifer claims he never lies. He says this to Nick and, Sam. However this is a tecnicality.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-10-30 13:57
Yes but both Nick & Sam & Bellamy Young (the first lady on Scandal) were vessels for him. Maybe Luci cant lie to his vessels.
MK
# MK 2015-11-01 03:38
I know it won’t be popular but I’m going to play the devil’s advocate. This, for me, was a terrible episode. While the directing was unique and the acting good, I found the script to be absolutely cringeworthy. It was as if Thompson went onto a fansite and looked for all the things that made the fans squee over the past ten years, and then he jam packed them all into one episode. From the minute Dean was mentioned to be wearing shorts you could predict everything that was going to come; sleeping in the car, their different diets, ‘Bitch Jerk’, singing, pop culture references, a talk about their ‘past’ etc etc. By the end it was like being force fed sugar. It was just too much, too exaggerated, too false, and too forced.

The biggest problem with the Sam and Dean and their ‘relationship’ that we saw in 11.04 is that it no longer fits this show or these characters. It was like a 50 year old trying to squeeze into a pair of jeans that fit them when they were 15. He/she might get into them but It’s awkward, it’s uncomfortable and it both looks and feels wrong. That’s what the show was trying to do here, squeeze season 11 Sam and Dean into characters they’ve grown beyond. I think what we saw in episode 11.04 are the Sam and Dean and their relationship as many fans want them to be, not what they have grown into, or have been shown to be, over the past 7+ years. They have to work to get back to that early season familiarity and comfort with each other, and up to 11.03 they hadn’t even started.

It was so frustrating, but at this stage completely expected, to see that, once again, the ‘honesty’ was so one-sided. And considering how Dean completely shut Sam down when Sam did tell him, I totally understand why Sam didn’t rush to tell him, and doesn’t rush to tell him things. It’s interesting that Dean seemed more pissed that Sam didn’t tell him he was infected (he pointed this out this twice), than concerned that Sam was infected in the first place.

Add to that, too much of what the show were trying to sell in this episode has been systematically destroyed over the past few seasons to such an extent that to try and force it back to what it originally was just feels wrong and cheap. The ‘Goodnight jerk. Goodnight bitch’ scene was particularly bad considering how the word ‘bitch’ has been used in recent years, as a term to shut down, belittle and demean. The expectation from Dean that he’d get sex turned skeevy in the episode with the ex porn star. The Impala as ‘home’ for Sam would have been a lovely idea had the show not constantly emphasised that the Impala is Dean’s, and Dean’s solely. It’s not their car. It’s certainly not Sam’s car. Dean drives while Sam shuts his cakehole. Dean lays down the rules as to who and what Sam can and cannot have in his car. We’ve seen Dean react badly to any attempt from Sam to personalise the car, and react violently to Sam taking the car. On many occasions when the Impala was sitting idle in the garage or out in front of a motel Sam left it there and took a different car. Sam is a guest in the Impale, yet we’re meant to believe that he considers it ‘home’??

I’d had a small bit of hope when Jensen Ackles said they would talk about the pas,t that they would address some of the past events that led them to where they are now. But no, the past was that they dream about their dead parents. Wow, original! Was this to serve as a reminder to the audience that ‘family’ is meant to be at the heart of the show? Except it’s not any more because even ‘family’ has been distorted into something horrible over the past 3 seasons.

That was my biggest issue with this episode, the dishonesty and laziness of it. We’re inexplicably back to the way things were in the early, early seasons with absolutely no effort put into showing the journey as to how they got there. I get that people, and the show, want to just move on, but how does that apply when the show ignores things that happened late last season (Dean putting Sam through a mock execution, wishing him dead and on the pyre etc) and something Sam said that Dean didn’t like is still being dragged up a year and a half after it was said?? The show are very selective with what they choose to move on with (i.e. Dean messes up, move on quickly. Sam messes up, stay with it) , and most often it’s doors they’ve opened that they have no clue how to close, so they always resort going with the the tried and tested ‘pretend it never happened’.

One interesting thing was Dean’s comment to Mrs Markham about how you’d do anything for family but ‘…..not if it costs too much’. This could be (a) Dean slowly getting on board with Sam’s mentality that they need to stop doing things to ‘save’ each other that costs others or (b) Dean thinking that what Sam did to save him in season 10 cost too much, so Sam, his thoughts, ideas can’t be trusted going forward. Hope says option (a). History says option (b)

In relation to who Sam was speaking to in the car, most probably Lucifer. The MOC is still very much in play, so while Sam thinks God is talking to him, the ‘Abel wasn’t talking to God. He was actually talking to Lucifer’ therefore Cain/Dean had/has to kill him storyline still applies. Dean is more associated with the Darkness (via the MOC) Sam is more associated with the Light (Lucifer the Lightbringer). Add to that, the show loves to give Sam hope and the idea that he’s worthy only to then tear it away and remind him of just how tainted and unworthy he actually is.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-01 08:33
MK, I can't disagree with most of what you said. I was very disappointed that the brothers have not yet, and maybe never will, address all of the crap that went on between them, including Dean's plan to murder Sam just a few short weeks earlier. Yes, it was mostly fueled by the MOC, but these were enormous relationship-al tering events that cannot possibly be swept under the rug while we return to business as usual. But we've seen this before with the whole Gadreel thing. And with Demon Dean: after Sam cured Dean, Dean's sole effort to address the issue was to thank Sam for saving him and to refer to how embarrassing the whole thing was. I always thought that was ridiculous. His actions as a demon and his attempt to kill Sam is somehow reduced to an embarrassment?! That was totally out of character and it sold Dean very short. Dean's entire life has been devoted to looking out for and protecting Sam- he would never have left it at "jeez, that was embarrassing." I've never bought the argument that the brothers aren't into the chick flick moments and tend to not dissect their feelings and emotions and their relationship. Because we had YEARS of episodes under Kripke in which they did just that. It's one of my biggest gripes with the Carver era.
But with all that said, this non-communicati ve nonsense regrettably seems to be the new normal. So if my only choices are: A. a return to the old affectionate, teasing, caring dynamic between the brothers, even if it has happened suddenly and magically by their forgetting everything that's happened between them, and B. a continuation of the dynamic of seasons 8-10, in which the brothers often seemed to dislike each other, and took actions that seemed totally out of character- I'll choose option A. Half a loaf is better than none!

The only point I kind of disagree about is the impala. Yes, it is very much, and always has been, Dean's car. And everything you describe about that is true. But Sam, too, has spent the equivalent of years' worth of hours in Baby; he's spent countless nights sleeping in that car, and eaten countless meals, and whenever Dean has been taken away, he has kept Baby as his. The way Dean asserts his ownership and control over Baby reminds me of how I am with my kids. On occasions when I've been annoyed that they have damaged our house or refuse to clean their rooms, and they argue that I shouldn't care, I've told them that this is MY house so they follow my rules. Of course this is still their home in every way, and I'm certainly not saying otherwise. So that's how I view the impala situation. It might be very much Dean's car, but it is both of their homes.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-01 11:08
I've always felt that Sam's main reasons for not telling Dean certain things right away has always been his fear of Dean's reaction towards it. All the way to season 1 , Sam feared telling Dean about his visions. He was afraid of not only what they meant, but what Dean would think of him. Dean's initial reaction when Sam first told him....Sam people have weird dreams. ( as though he was unable to believe otherwise)..Dea n's second reaction: I'm just freaked out that your weirdo visions are coming true. To which Sam replied...forge t that for a minute. Now did Dean react that way because he couldn't handle the fact that something about his brother was supernatural and Sam truly freaked him out? I don't believe that for a minute....or perhaps the minute Dean hears something about his brother, involving the supernatural, he immediately becomes afraid. After all he lost his mother to the supernatural. He basically lost his father to the supernatural when he took the route of revenge instead of raising his children in a normal way. John taught Dean fear. John taught Dean to hate all things supernatural as he confessed in Bloodlust... Dean's reactions to Sam, I felt have always been in the form of fear...not afraid of Sam, but afraid for him...Dean's specialty has always been denial. When he can't face something or doesn't want to he tries to deny it's very existence, or at the very most he tries to ignore it.

Jensen has mentioned quite often that his role has been of big brother and the most recent one he stated that he sees the boys as an equal partnership...a nd I don't doubt that at all....One should take into consideration what the role of big brother might entail. It could mean different things to so many, but the one popular belief among the elder to his sibling is that they're the oldest and they know what's best...and sometimes that's actually the case. Now Dean's role of big brother is a bit more convoluted, because unlike a lot of siblings...in this case Dean actually raised his brother due to absent parents. While dean believes whole heartedly and has absolute faith in his brother's abilities, Dean will always look at his brother as his responsibility, one to look out for (as sam does for dean) for the very fact that all they have is each other. Dean will carry a parental role because, though he is only Sam's brother, his job was dual...both as brother and parent. It stands to reason why Dean has a do as I say not as I do mentality...as most parents do. My mother smoked when she was young, she smoked when I was a kid...I used to hide her cigarettes...bu t yet she told me never to smoke..it's bad for you....now that's a blatant call of hypocrisy right there....I never smoked...but mom did...dad still does...why do they tell me not too...well because they love me..and smoking is bad...and they don't want me sick...ever...D ean has often and much to my annoyance displayed moments of hypocrisy....so metimes, as with his selling his soul, he did it out of sheer love for his brother...and sometimes it was more like just because I do the wrong thing doesn't mean you should too...and sometimes, as in the case with benny...it was about not being able to face one's own monster.

That's basically what season 8-10 has been about....carver took a different approach to show, one that many people didn't and still might not care for. He took the approach that had the boys deal with their own personal feelings of self loathing...the monster within them..

dean's self loathing has a been a major character flaw, as well as sam's, since show began. it's been an issue that has been brought up, even explored a bit, but never resolved...carv er took the opportunity to resolve...or at the very most face these issues....deal with them...and with that start the season of change...which is where we are now. change isn't always instant..it takes time...but it's happening and we saw it in this eppy.

dean broke in purgatory. he became the monster he believed himself to be. he killed and was content. He became besties with a monster who had no qualms about dean's actions...had sam been in purgatory, it's my steadfast belief that while they would've had to kill, dean still would've remained human..he wouldn't have been able to feel free to enjoy it...sam wouldn't have allowed it..sam keeps dean human...it's why dean goes to such extremes to keep sam with him...he cannot let him go. ....dean was forced to come to terms with what he became in s8..it's why he was so angry with sam for not saving him...not because he suffered, but because he didn't. Dean's denial continues in his need to believe benny to be the exception to his own monster rule...yet when sam asked why benny was breathing free air..dean noted..people change...he was referring to himself and what he'd become. The denial continued when Dean tried to convince himself that benny was trustworthy...h e even deluded himself into believing martin had it coming...as bobby noted...dean(sa m) went off the rails. Dean pushing sam away, to the point where sam made dean an ultimatum seemed to be Dean's realization point...because down deep, dean's love for his brother is stronger than anything...he broke away from benny and went back to his usual denial mode...and he did everything he could to feel like himself again...from dressing up and larping to wanting to do the trials to atone for what he'd become....and for awhile it seemed to work for him...until sam almost died.....

there aint no me if there aint no you...truer words were never said...because for dean, without sam he's not a good person...he's not worthy....witho ut sam he's back to being the monster he believes himself to be...so he takes drastic measures to keep sam....and i'm not saying love has nothing to do with it...it has everything to do with it....dean loves sam and a big part of why is because sam keeps him human, but not the only part. Season 9 and season 10 has basically been about the boys fighting their inner demons..their own monster within....the self loathing and the belief that they're not worthy....talk about battling the darkness...but that's in essence what had to be done...in order to battle the darkness and win, maybe it was necessary to battle and win their own darkness' within.

I agree with you that the talk they had should've been about what they've been through these last few years....and I can't really lay the blame on Robbie for not getting it, because I think carver has the last word on what is said or not said...I mean it was Robbie after all who wanted to include the scene of why sam really hit that dog but he wasn't allowed. Robbie did give us what we needed though in a way he was allowed to write it.

I have always agreed that the reason that sam keeps things from dean is mostly due to dean's reaction to them. Dean doesn't always handle things the way he should. Carver had Sam say that the boys needed to change.....and change isn't instant...it's a step by step process....and the scene in the car was part of those steps...that's important...tha t's the maturing relationship that the boys are starting to have. sure on the outside they've grown, but inside for the most part their actions have been the same...now there's a different feel to it... Sam didn't tell dean he was infected because he didn't want dean dropping everything to save him. He was thinking of the innocents. I don't think he told dean after that because of the vision, which sam didn't mention I feel because he didn't quite understand what it meant. Most think Dean is keeping his darkness/bond bit of info from sam for similar reasons...he's not sure what it means so why freak out...I also think it's like if he says it out loud to Sam then it's real..then he has to deal with it....and while Sam is more prone to accepting change and actually changing....dea n knows he has to which is a major step, but it's not so easy for him...I think what's important here is that Sam had his second vision and told dean right away...no fear of what dean would think or say as he had in the past...dean's reaction was different in a way this time around too...he didnt' make sam feel like sam was a freak, he didn't use words like weirdo.....he listened, he took it in and I don't think he blew them off....yes he denied that they could be from God...but I think that's more a personal issue Dean has. He's not really a big fan of the man upstairs...so it's pretty standard Dean SOP to instantly believe that God wouldn't help. Sam has always had faith. In this respect they have always differed, but who knows, maybe God will fool Dean this time...I got that Dean was upset that Sam didn't tell him he was infected...and here dean is not telling sam an important piece of info...so I have to ask myself...who is dean really upset with right now? sam or himself? the whole feel of the conversation felt mature and strong as compared to the past. even though the confession was onesided...I think it's more to do in regards to habit...sometim es bad habits are hard to break. dean not telling sam could very well have to do with the fact that it's freaking him out. it's this nugget of fear planted in his head by the darkness and he doesn't want to deal with what it could mean and yet there it is...it's not going to go away...it's going to manifest in his behavior and then he will spill to sam..look as much as I want dean to change his bad habits instantly, it's not realistic and with some things it may not happen at all....sometime s a person is what he is...luckily for dean he has sam who understands that....and it think after all sam's been through, he does understand now. The walk in ea. other's shoes was important...the y now seem to get the other's perspective now...even in the conversation in the car....it felt like dean knew why sam didn't say anything about being infected and though it hurt a little he didn't get upset..he didn't dig into his self loathing and twist sam's actions around...he took it for what it was and accepted it....that's change...

it's early still, only four eps in....i'm going to give dean the benefit of the doubt and believe in him and his ability to change some of those bad habits...but it's going to take time. he'll tell sam soon enough...and I'm sure sam will take dean's secret much the way dean did....but again, at least I know sam 's not going to beat himself up thinking dean didn't say anything because he doesn't trust him...that he thinks little of him....at least I know that's done with...and that is a significant change ..and that I feel as though we have started to see.

i'm not denying that the boys still have to work on changing some of those old habits...but what's different this time around is that they are...they're taking the steps of change...there is a different feel than there was from the past...but I think the point is that they're trying to get back to the way it was prior to constantly having to save ea. other...but they're doing it differently...n ow I feel as though they're relationship is much stronger...they 're much wiser and they're acknowledging the need to change.....

I feel like that's what Robbie was trying to point out here...and I feel like he did a great job of doing just that. ;)
I agree with samanddean with sam regarding the impala as home. perhaps that's why he doesnt' consider the bunker as anything more than where they work....because for sam, who has spent his life in that car...now we got a glimpse as to what they do in the car....well for sam, that is home....thought that made perfect sense. ;);)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-01 14:54
Sugarhi, I agree with a lot of points that you made, but I still think that the level of ugliness that Carver took the brothers' relationship to over the last few seasons was unwarranted. But given that he did have some truly horrible events disrupt their relationship, it's incumbent on him to address it. To me, if the brothers never really air out some of this crap, with each of them having his say and listening to the other, there's no way that they can truly move past it. To me and sylvia and some others, it really does feel like some giant elephant in the room. The worst part is that it means we fans are going to keep rehashing it because certain things between the brothers just don't feel resolved. Do it for us JC!:) I hope you're right that this is just the beginning of a more mature, honest relationship, and that the conversation I'm hoping for will come. Kripke did a wonderful job of having the brothers deal with the issues between them- maybe not immediately, but over the course of the season. Fingers crossed that Carver does the same!

One thing about their relationship that doesn't actually bother me much is the secret-keeping. As Yellow Eyed Sam said, we all keep secrets sometimes. It only bothers me when the sole purpose of having a brother keep a secret is to gin up conflict. For example, when Sam secretly continued trying to cure Dean last season it made no sense. He's a grown man and he should have just said "too bad, Dean, I'm going to keep looking for a cure til my last breath." What would Dean have done? That kind of contrived secret-keeping makes me crazy. But it actually doesn't bother me that they are, at least temporarily, concealing from each other the things that have happened to them this season. Like you, I think there are legitimate reasons for this. Dean is still probably trying to wrap his head around what happened, what his visions mean, and he probably worries about Sam's feelings. After the lengths Sam went to to save him, what if it's an out of the frying pan into the fire situation? And as far as Sam, there were several credible, justifiable reasons for hiding his infection, including the fear that Dean would abandon the baby to come back and save him. Also, not everyone who is told that they have a fatal illness immediately tells all of their loved ones. Sometimes they just need to first process it themselves, or they do not feel that they could cope with the reaction, or they just want to spare the feelings of the loved ones. Same with Sam's visions, as you beautifully pointed out in your post. There were legitimate reasons to delay telling Dean. Moreover, I don't think Dean's reaction to the info in this ep was extreme or over the top. I would have been shocked and upset if my sister informed me that she had been diagnosed with a terrible illness but waited to tell me about it until after she was cured. And I would feel that way even if I had been guilty of keeping secrets from her. It's human nature. Well, my nature anyway.:) So the secrets the brothers have kept this year have not bothered me at all. TPTB just better not make it a bone of contention between the brothers, because then hypocrisy comes into play, and we've had more than enough of that.

I do agree with you that there's a different feel to their relationship than we've seen the last couple of years, and I am most certainly happy about it. PLEASE let it continue!:)
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2015-11-03 08:22
.sometimes, as with his selling his soul, he did it out of sheer love for his brother...

No, he did it because he didn't want to be alone. It was pure selfishness on his part and he admitted it in AHBL.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2015-11-03 08:18
THIS. Why I haven't commented on this episode before is because so many liked it and I didn't. At all. MK, I agree with every word you wrote. I'd like to add, that I don't think Sam hooking up was something he'd do especially given the way his body has been treated by everyone, including Dean. Hooking up with Madison felt natural, this didn't. It felt forced and to me it felt wrong.
Like you, I don't see the progression that it would take to get from last season to this one. In addition, to me the Impala represents everything that's wrong between the brothers. I know I'm going to get flamed for that but I don't care. That's how I see it.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-11-01 04:23
It certainly was a episode designed for fans and not one that reflects the reality of the brothers . But it served it,s purpose why take a long journey to get the brothers back to season 1 when you can take a shortcut .

Not for me but it was nicely directed
PSG
# PSG 2015-11-01 08:18
It had its cute moments and I certainly liked it better than a lot of Thompson's episodes. . But yeah he's not a great writer. The direction was awesome. I loved badass Dean dealing with the ghoulpires in so matter a fact manner. And Castiel’s phone call.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-03 07:31
also why I don't think it's Lucifer or Michael....I don't think they have the ability to eavesdrop on conversations.. ..dean and sam were talking in the car when sam asked dean if he wanted more...not marriage..but maybe sharing his life with a fellow hunter....soon after dean told sam to go to sleep...then sam has the vision of john...and john said....what you were talking about with dean, about wanting more..i want that for you too...or something to that effect....so whoever sent sam the vision heard their conversation... .I don't think Lucifer or Michael can hear what the boys are talking about.....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-03 08:09
That's a really good point Sugarhi. By now, I'm convinced that it was Gabriel, sent by God (or at least permitted by God) to help. It hadn't even occurred to me that it might be Gabriel until you and some other posters brought it up, but now based on what he said in the car and what we know about him from the past, it makes the most sense to me that it is Gabriel. I really can't wait to find out who it is. I wonder when they'll make the big reveal? If it is Gabriel, I think he will continue to appear to Sam in the guise of different people from Sam's past, which will be awesome since it presents the opportunity to bring back so many characters/acto rs that I loved.
PsG
# PsG 2015-11-03 09:30
Nick might disagree with you. Appearing as dead family members is tricking because you are hiding your identity and using sentiment to coerce the vessel doing what you want.
Goodness... it's not the Sam show folks. Take the fan fiction somewhere else.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-03 20:43
Actually, if you look at the dialog from 5x1 Sympathy for the Devil, you will see that Lucifer was completely candid with Nick and gave him all the facts, letting him make a decision with his own free will. He only appears as Nick's wife because he had no other form to appear in at that time and it's Nick's dream. The dialog is below: as you can see Lucifer tells Nick right away that he is not Nick's wife then discloses exactly who he is, what he wants, what Nick will have to do, how it will be for him if he says yes. He doesn't make promises to bring Nick's family back to coerce him. Nick agrees of his own free will after Lucifer lays it all out and asks for consent. To me, Lucifer is far more honest and up front with his vessels than any of the other angels; he did not manipulate Nick nearly as much as Michael manipulated John (by holding Mary's life over his head) or Castiel manipulated Jimmy by holding his daughter hostage.

SARAH Nick. You're dreaming, Nick. But it doesn't mean this isn't real.
NICK Sarah?
SARAH I'm not your wife, Nick. I'm an angel.
NICK An angel?
SARAH My name is Lucifer.
NICK Sure. Naturally. Um... Could you do me a favor there, Satan, and remind me to quit drinking before I go to bed?
LUCIFER I'm here because you're special, Nick. There's very, very few people like you.
NICK Is that so?
LUCIFER You're a vessel—a very powerful vessel.
NICK swings his legs off the bed.
NICK Meaning what, exactly?
LUCIFER I need to take control of your mind and your body. To be honest, it'll probably be unpleasant for you. But it is necessary.
NICK Okay, look...if it's just the same to you, I think I'd like to wake up now.
LUCIFER I told you—this is real. Don't be afraid. This is your choice.
LUCIFER sits on the bed next to NICK.
LUCIFER You need to invite me in.
NICK Even if this is real—which it's not, but assuming it was...why the hell would I do something like that?
LUCIFER You people misunderstand me. You call me "Satan" and "devil", but... Do you know my crime? I loved God too much. And for that, he betrayed me—punished me. Just as he's punished you. After all, how could God stand idly by while that man broke into your home and butchered your family in their beds?
NICK swallows, not looking at her.
LUCIFER There are only two rational answers, Nick—either he's sadistic, or he simply doesn't care. You're angry. You have every right to be angry. I am angry, too. That's why I want to find him—hold him accountable for his actions. Just because he created us doesn't mean he can toy with us, like playthings.
NICK If I help you...can you bring back my family?
LUCIFER I'm sorry. I can't. But I can give you the next best thing. God did this to you, Nick. And I can give you justice. Peace.
NICK How do I know you're telling the truth?
LUCIFER Because, contrary to popular belief, I don't lie. I don't need to. What I need...is you. Nick, I need you to say yes.
NICK remembers the empty baby rocker, the blood pouring from the crib, the empty crib.
NICK Then yes.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-04 07:24
if we're comparing Lucifer with Michael in who's the bigger dick angel...i'd have to say it's a tie....
Lucifer may have been totally up front, but as we know there's more than one vessel....and he totally chose the most broken man he could find, who just lost his wife and infant child....he clearly took advantage of this man's trauma and heartbreak....a nd conveniently laid the blame of God....for the act of an evil human being. So what he did was worse. Praying on this man the way he did for his own selfish and maniacal reasons...

Michael did much the same thing to dean in the song remains the same...he was flat out honest with dean...laying it all out there..going on and on about raising Lucifer, taking care of him like no other, loving him but obeying his father's orders because he's a good son...sound familiar? Michael, much the same as luci, took advantage and clearly used manipulation in order for dean to say yes, again like luci, for his own means...and clearly the well being of humans wasn't in the picture from either....

Lucifer and Michael were no different than ruby in way...but at least ruby gave sam some good sex.....:D

Both dicks, both manipulators... ...both making promises that I doubt either one would've kept.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-04 07:47
Oh I wasn't insinuating that Lucifer is somehow the "better" angel by any means. And yes, Nick, still reeling from the loss of his wife and child was particularly vulnerable, but he was also unique in that he was able to contain Lucifer for a time. And I am sure being Lucifer's vessel is no cake walk. Still, there was a lot of chatter about how Lucifer cheated and lied his way into his vessels which is not true as indicated in the actual dialog from the show. We saw Lucifer in two separate Vessels, Sam and Nick, and in each case he was more than up front with them about what he wanted, why he wanted it, and what that would mean for the vessel if they said yes, and each vessel said yes of their own free will knowing full well what that would mean for them. When Michael took John he was promised that Michael would save Mary. When Jimmy agreed to let Cas in the second time it was to save his daughter from suffering as he had; not exactly honest or consensual from either John or Jimmy's perspective.