“I can’t enjoy a world I need to save, Dean.  I can enjoy it when this is all over with.  Right now, there’s nothing more important than this.” 

Kevin pretty much summed up this entire episode in one sentence.  It’s an important lesson, putting all else above your happiness, but that’s probably why in the end this wasn’t an enjoyable episode either.  We care about these characters, we love these characters, but sometimes their misery gets a bit too overwhelming.  And it seems these guys have a ton to be miserable about.  

Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t hate “Torn and Frayed.”  In construction, there’s some important stuff in there, stuff that was sorely needed at this time and place.  Jenny Klein did a great job in her first solo script.  It’s just the end had the result fans have been dying to see all season, but the fun was sucked out of it.  We were left pretty empty. 

Before going into the analysis, let me get my big, seething, “Hated it!” complaint out of the way first.  It’s time for the big midseason kick off, and they go with Bob Seger’s “Katmandu?”  That’s not only the worst song ever by Bob Seger, it’s one of the worst rock songs ever done.  It’s not exactly kick ass, is it?  It’s cheesy.  Growing up in Detroit every single time that song came on the radio (which was a lot since Bob Seger is a native son), it was an instant channel change for me.  So MAJOR FAIL there guys.  

Anyway, this episode in construction had a good mixture of brotherly drama vs. angel/demon story and flowed very well.  Poor Samandriel.  He was the good angel, one that actually believed in Castiel.  Why is it on this show the good ones have to suffer and die?  Naomi had to know that Crowley had captured Samandriel.  He’d been missing for weeks.  She after all had programmed him and they didn’t have that pin in his skull when he was first captured in “A Little Slice of Kevin.”  She wanted him tortured for a reason.  

I’m in the camp not totally convinced that angels are at work here.  It’s too much of a coincidence the two angels being controlled are the two angels that have been in touch with Crowley recently.  Perhaps it’s a set of rogue angels working with Crowley?  Maybe Naomi isn’t in Heaven and Crowley is controlling all this?  Is there someone else we don’t know about?  I know these questions aren’t anything new, so I’ll push those aside and pull them out when there’s more info.  I still say it’s related to the person who was spying on Sam in the season opener.  Duh, I’m stating the obvious again.  

In the meantime, Castiel is a pawn.  Man, will this poor angel ever catch a break?  I long for the days back in season five when he was a fallen angel, roaming the earth, slowly losing his abilities but fighting the good fight (and going on a bender here and there for fun).  I love how he’s at least healing babies.  That’s always a step in the right direction on redemption.  That woman will always wonder now why angels wear trenchcoats.  

So Castiel was given this mission to save Samandriel just so he could kill him?  That’s just plain sad.  Was Naomi hoping that Castiel would get him before he revealed things to Crowley, or did she want Crowley to know that info?  It was obvious after the rescue judging by Samandriel’s panic he was dead no matter what happened.  It just destroyed me to see Castiel be mind controlled into killing him.  Cass should have been the one who tried to save him, find another way.  On thing’s for sure, Castiel is coming apart.  His distress is so real, so unnerving given how stoic and strong he can be.  

Castiel remembering the torture scenes in “Heaven” is a good bit of info, but I was hoping for more progression in the angel story in this episode.  It just wasn’t enough.  The pacing of this mytharc has been sluggish enough this season, this episode just made it drag on more.  

Another thing that bothered me, why was Crowley surprised there was an angel tablet?  There’s a demon one, there’s a leviathan one, so why wouldn’t there be an angel one?  Heck there’s probably a human one.  It reveals the secrets for banishing us all from the Walmart.  What I want to know is where in the universe is Crowley going to find it?  Did Samandriel reveal that secret?  Maybe that’s the setup for the rest of the season, the search for the lost tablets.  Given the fact I’ve seen the episode pitches for the bulk of the season, I’m thinking those searches won’t be dominating a lot of time.  Then again, Mr. Carver has been keeping plots close to the vest.  

Sam and Dean Act Like Adults

The major strength of the episode was the brother scenes.  I did love all that was said and done and man was it a long time coming.  After everything, Sam and Dean decided they needed to be both feet in and choose to fight together.  That meant giving up relationships that meant the world to them, relationships that made them happy.  

Both are talking, so that’s huge.  That’s the one thing they haven’t been able to do all season.  You know Sam wanted to talk when he saw Dean at the motel and tried to slam the door, but then stopped himself.  Dean went right with the story of how Benny killed Martin in self defense.  “Like it or not, that’s the truth.  There was a time when that meant something.”  Yeah, don’t remind me Dean.  

The Sam of old probably would have walked away, or said nothing, so it’s wonderful to see him open up instead.  He made it clear his anger had nothing to do with Benny.  Sam couldn’t believe that Dean would pull that stunt with the text knowing his past emotional scars.  “To be afraid that what happened to Jessica, what happened to everybody we care about would happen to her?”  In that context, it makes Dean’s defense, if Sam had trusted him the first place they wouldn’t be there, pretty weak.  “Is that where we are?  You save a vampire by making me believe the woman I love might be dead?”  Good point Sam.  

Dean’s frustration at this moment reflects his frustration with Sam ever since he got back from Purgatory.  He doesn’t know how to make things right.  This time Sam makes it clear how, ditch Benny.  Dean isn’t willing to do that, and goes back to the cabin, ready to go on without Sam.  Just think what could have happened if Castiel hadn’t had  other ideas and the ability to retrieve Sam in a flash?  It’s the siege on the warehouse, working well together as a team, that reminds them they’re both better off together than apart when saving the world.    

After their adventure gone awry, the brothers finally choose to talk with less hostility and have one very refreshing adult conversation.  Dean does figure out a way to make things right and breaks the impasse, reminding Sam he has a girl to get back to.  “I don’t know, I’m just tired of all the fighting.  And maybe I’m a little bit jealous.  I could never separate myself from the job like you could.  Hell, maybe it’s time for at least one of us to be happy.” 

It’s a nice sentiment and Dean is endearing in his sincerity, but Sam is a guy that’s never handled guilt well.  Just knowing his brother would be out there, fighting a fight that he walked away from, it would have torn him apart.  Amelia never stood a chance in that decision.   Sam knows Amelia would make him happy, but he’s needed in this fight too.  

While Sam walks, Dean makes his choice and calls Benny.  I find Dean’s decision huge, because theirs is a very unique bond that Sam could never understand.  Benny may be a vampire, but he’s Dean’s brother in arms too.  Two soldiers sharing something on the battlefield that no one but each other could possibly understand.  That kind of loyalty means a ton to Dean.

It’s interesting how they both made the decision to carry on together separately, with each not knowing how the other would choose.  Maybe they intuitively knew, but I don’t believe that.  They both have changed so much in their year apart, they’re having too much trouble recognizing one another.  

At the end, sitting on the couch with beers and a meal watching TV, Sam and Dean didn’t look very happy together.  There are no words, which always results something special thanks to Jared and Jensen.  Dean gives Sam an “Are you sure?” gaze, and Sam nods.  His face is tinged with regret though.  He carries on with his meal, because the choice is made.  The brothers are on the same team again, but it’s bittersweet.  

In the end both Sam and Dean know they made the right decisions, but it seems like it hurt.  Both are probably left wondering what they did to poor Benny and Amelia, two people that looked like they were left in a bad place.  That’s not exactly making the brotherly reunion very satisfying.  It’s not a happy ending, that’s for sure.  

Other Random Thoughts

My favorite part of this episode is when Castiel came and got Sam.  I’m always wishing for more scenes with Castiel and Sam.  Cass just shows up on the park bench, startling Sam, making a comment about how watching humans never gets old.  Speak for yourself Cass!  That’s long enough to break the tension before they’re back in a flash with Dean and Kevin.  When the brothers exchange words, Castiel knows how to handle it.  “I need the both of you to, how you say, stow your crap!”  Yes sir Mr. Pretty Boy Angel!  

Sam and Amelia slept together.  Considering it resulted in a shirtless Winchester (after getting three very fine shirtless moments in “Arrow”), I’m cool with it.  Did you notice how wearing his shirt practically swallowed her?  Nice dress lady.  Sam looked extremely guilty afterward though.  That’s probably another reason why he chose to stay with Dean.  That’s really all I have to say about that.  

The Burning Bush!  Manifest through shrubbery!  It was only a month or so ago we were running a game on Twitter where you replaced a word in your favorite “Supernatural” lines with “shrubbery.”  It seems Samandriel was tuning into that.  :)

Plain and simple, I don’t enjoy episodes that bum me out.  Make me a weepy mess?  Yes.  Make me laugh myself to injury?  Yes.  Get me excited with adventure and the good guys winning one?  Yes.  The boys driving off into the sunset in the Impala ready to take on another day?  Yes, yes!  This episode had none of that.  It served it’s purpose though, moving the story along, so I’m ready to learn from this, much like Sam and Dean, and move on.  Bring on the LARPing!  I need to feel good again.  

Comments  

Ginger
# Ginger 2013-01-19 19:50
Oh, Alice, I loved Katmandu. Other than that, we're kind of on the same page about the episode. I posted my thoughts on the episode under Sweetondean's review not too long ago.

While I liked the episode, I voted #6. Instead of depressed, I would substitute the word "dissatisfied."

I'm just really disappointed in Carver's pacing problem he's got going on and, as I said under the Sweetondean review, I think EK had it right to drip feed us little tidbits in each episode, either about the brothers, their backstory, or the mytharc. I think that's what made those early episodes work so well and not make the whole entire mytharc so fragmented that I'm not seeing any urgency in it at all. At this pace, it could indeed go on for two or three more years, but I may forget what it's all about before this season is even over.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-01-19 19:54
I think Crowley's surprise about the angel tablet is because God wrote (dictated) the tablet. You don't give away your own secrets (or krytonite).
I wonder where the other Archangels are at. Could be one of them behind this.

I think Dean and Sam both understood what the other was saying, even f they didn't agree with it at the time. They both gave up outside forces distracting them from the task at hand. I also think Dean's support of Sam is just a big brother wanting his little brother to be happy.He finally realized he can't force Sam to do what HE thinks he should do. About d*#m time if you ask me! That was my fave scene. Dean telling Sam to go be happy.
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2013-01-20 11:47
Where there any archangels left?
RMF
# RMF 2013-01-19 20:46
I've struggled to write something about this episode. It's hard not to be apathetic about an episode in which the core relationship has become so soured. In their opening confrontation, Sam looked angry and hurt, but the way Dean looked at Sam with such indifference and contempt was disturbing enough to make me want off switch off then and there. Dean may finally be tired of all the fighting, but I've been tired of it for about 10 episodes now, and jeebus cripes. I'm glad that the text hit the nail on the head about the devastating effect the text-message gambit had on Sam and the way in which Dean used it to move Sam around like a chess piece. The Dean I used to know wouldn't have needed to have it pointed out to him, though. That Dean, if forced to adopt tough tactics, would have recognized and felt bad about the suffering they caused. So add me to the list of people who miss empathetic Dean. And asking Sam to just trust him about Benny has got to be one of the worst arguments he could possibly make. Sam once pleaded the same case with respect to Ruby and had to admit he was fooled, so what would make him think Dean was bulletproof? He's not supposed to know Dean's written that way.

On Sam's part, the him-or-me ultimatum seemed premature. Although I get that Sam is now convinced after Martin's death that Benny is a bad guy, it seems more natural to say, "Don't you realize this guy might have played you?" or "How are you going to reconcile it next time Benny kills a hunter?" rather than start off with the hard line. But the show does love its parallels, so if they need Sam to unload Amelia, evidently Dean has to ditch the Benny baggage as well, uncharacteristi c though it plays.

I did like the ambition of the writer to progress the brothers subtly towards the reorientation of their outlook and goals. The understatedness kept the character work interesting, although it was too ambiguous at times, leaving it open ended as to what Dean's real motivations were. The character hit Sam takes by committing adultery was unwelcome, but the fact that Sam himself feels the immorality of it lends it some validity. His vision of a normal life suddenly becomes messy and marred by the prospect of the damage that persisting on this path would cause. Amelia, however, has what she really wants right in front of her, and doesn't feel it to the same degree Sam does. There is therefore a personal element in their parting of the ways, not just a self sacrifice on Sam's part for the greater good, and I like the sense of finality that gives. On the down side, however, as affecting as Amelia's disappointment is at the end of the episode, it's difficult to truly mourn this relationship, because it never really came to life. I don't know what these two had in common besides their grief. I don't even know whether they liked the same movies.

Dean, too, undergoes a change of heart, but it's a much harder read. We see him pester a stressed-out and miserable Kevin, who tells him that he cut his mother loose so she wouldn't be a distraction from his work and that there will be time enough to enjoy the world once their struggles are over. This clearly has an effect on Dean, and at the time, I took it as a reminder that they aren't fighting just to be fighting, they are fighting to make the world a safe place where people can lead happy lives, and therefore Sam's aspirations towards a normal life weren't so out of line after all. This frees him to voice acceptance to Sam. However, between the reviewers and other posters, I've seen two other reasonable interpretations of what Dean may have been thinking at this juncture, so I throw a penalty flag at the writer. It's bad enough we don't know what's going on in Sam's mind; let's not do it to Dean, too. At any rate, Dean's acceptance lifts the weight of the conflict from Sam's mind, and his instincts immediately lead him back toward the hunt when Castiel's odd dilemma surfaces. There is a ray of hope in their ending up back on the same page, but it's hardly a warm alliance. Dean scowls and turns away from Sam's tentative nod. Is he still resenting Sam, this time for the decision to cut ties with Benny?
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-01-19 23:17
Interesting take, RMF. I took Dean's scrowl at the end as turned inward to himself. In my mind, this writer took Dean too far. By ditching Benny, Dean violated his very basic nature; his sense of loyalty, right and wrong, and his integrity, and he did this 'to have both feet in the game.'

The problem with this is that neither Dean nor Sam know yet what the game is. All they know is that Crowley has half of the tablet (which they've known for a long time) and that something is suspicious about Cas. To have Dean go against his basic nature and dump Benny at this stage of the game is way too premature and he's feeling quite crappy with himself, IMO.

I had the same problem with Sam feeling he had some sense of responsibility to finish the job. Sam doesn't know any more than Dean, so the circumstances of when he left Martin and decided not to go back to Dean because of the text has not changed, except for knowing something is up with Cas. Leaving Amelia under the circumstances of committing adultery and being a home wrecker, and knowing Don is a good guy, a war hero, and reasonable, I could understand, but not some sudden sense of responsibility to finish a job that is not yet urgent or compelling to them in any way.

So, basically, my read on the ending scene was that Sam was mourning the loss of Amelia and Dean was feeling badly about dumping a friend who had earned his trust under fire and over a long period of time. The brothers are together and committed to hunting together physically, but there's no joy in it for either one of them.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-20 22:52
Ive seen several people say Dean violates his basic/innate sense of loyalty in regard to Benny. What about Loyalty to Sam?

Does Dean feel any loyalty to Sam? If he doesn't...then why is he with Sam? why did he turn his back on someone he feels is a better brother; more loyal. Is this lack of loyalty why he felt ok with the text manipulation? Why he can't scrape any empathy for why Sam was upset about the text.

Does Dean feel no loyalty to Sam...just sees him as the best person to get the job done?

I can't even give any questions about Sam's thoughts becasue I haven't been privvy to them. Or how he came to any conclusions. There hasn't beem any ephiny having conversations where Sam is concerned imo.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-20 23:18
I'm not sure why Dean's loyalty to Sam is the issue here. It seems to me that he definitely feels loyalty to Sam--he has shown that he wants to be with Sam regardless of the conflict between them, he has shown that he will listen to Sam's demands, as he did at the end of SC, and he has shown that he will make choices that will appease Sam in cutting Benny off at least partly to make their partnership work more smoothly. At least we can speculate that, because when it comes to POV on this situation we are as in the dark about Dean as we are about Sam. But if we can reasonably assume that Sam made some concessions to stay with Dean (he could have stayed with Amelia or gone hunting on his own, but instead he chose Dean), I think it's reasonable to assume Dean made a concession to Sam. So it seems that no matter what Dean might say about Benny, Sam is still his first and most important loyalty.

I agree that Dean hasn't shown Sam a great deal of empathy this season. Of course, Sam hasn't shown much empathy for Dean this season either. You can certainly call their loyalty to each other into question this season, but at the end of the day clearly there's enough left between them to keep them together, so maybe we as fans have to approach things from that point of reference.

I'm afraid I disagree that we haven't seen any of Sam's thoughts or even an epiphany from Sam this season. We have seen his thinking evolve on normal vs. hunting, from I'm out to I need to finish this job and I'm out to I believe this is important and I'm staying. We've seen his feelings about his year off evolve from something he's never had before to the realization that he was running away during that year because he couldn't face his losses. Now what Sam's thoughts are on Dean, I agree we haven't seen nearly enough of. But then, Dean has had more examples of POV, and that hasn't kept his character/goodn ess/loyalty/etc from being questioned. I dougt more POV would have saved Sam from the same.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 08:18
But Benny was never brought up after the initial ultimatum.

Sam made his ultimatum, and Dean made his choice clear when he walked out the door. Dean chose Benny over Sam. At this point in time, Dean has more loyalty for Benny than Sam. Dean feels Benny is a better brother to him than Sam. That's why he bailed when Sam asked him to choose.

Cas brought the boys together. Sam didn't chase down Dean. Dean didn't chase down Sam. In fact, Dean didn't want Sam involved period.

In the last scenes, Dean told Sam to choose hunting or Amelia. He told Sam that Sam couldn't have one foot in both worlds. Sam left to go decided. Benny was not mentioned or raised.

Sam made his choice w/o asking Dean to do anything re: Benny. Does Sam even know Dean spoke to Benny? Does he know Benny called Dean? I doubt he knows any of those things so I don't think we can say Dean did it to appease Sam.

I'm not sure why Dean ditched Benny but I don't think Sam factored into his reasoning.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 23:53
I think the real question here is why anyone would believe that Dean REALLY thought that Benny was a better brother and not Dean lashing out in anger. Dean has pulled some jerk moves, the text being the lowest. Dean has said some harsh things. No doubt. But I don't think his loyalty to his brother has really wavered and that has been part of his anger. He didn't feel much loyalty when Sam told him he didn't look and was going to him leave at the first opportunity.

I think Dean has been having issues with feeling empathy for much of anything this season. But he does feel love for Sam and letting go of Benny was part of that imo, not just completely about the job. Dean seemed to feel bad about the text incident after Sam yelled at him about what he went through. Dean is not capable of expressing anything meaningful and Sam isn't doing much better. Not that they have ever found talking an easy process.

Nothing will ever be more important to Dean than Sam and he will be loyal until the end. Will he be a jackass also? Yes. Sometimes. As Sam will be sometimes. In spite of everything they are each others touchstone and that will never change. I didn't say anything about Sam's loyalty because to me it's a given and it isn't Sam's that's being called into question here.

As for Benny there was never a question of who Dean would be more loyal to. At least not in my mind. The ONLY reason that he would turn is back on a friend. That and the job.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 00:11
That’s a great point—empathy and love are not interchangeable term, and the absence of one doesn’t preclude the other (or vice versa, when you think about it). While Dean has had trouble with empathy this season, I don’t see at any point where his love for Sam or his loyalty to his brother has wavered. Has he been lashing out with some really dick words/moves? Yes, and that’s not something that should be swept under the rug. But at the same time, it’s not happening in a vacuum. The same can be said for Sam—his hurts are legitimate this season, even if they have led to some less than stellar behavior. He hasn't shown a lot of empathy either, because he's not in a place to do so any more than Dean is. Sam’s actions and attitude have hurt Dean this season, the same way Dean’s words and actions have hurt Sam. They are both reacting to that and they are both wrapped up in their own pain. Throughout the course of the series, Sam and Dean have always taken turns playing the jackass, unless they’re sharing the role. I doubt that will ever change. But at the end of the day, Dean and Sam do not walk away from each other and hold tight to their bond, and I don’t see that changing either.

Clearly if there was a question of who Dean would be loyal to, Benny or Sam, it has been answered. I think trying to dismiss that as “Well, Dean just needed a hunting partner” is trying to dismiss Dean’s good points to focus on the bad. I can’t get behind that.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 08:13
Wasn't Dean holding the truth penny when he made his comment about Benny being a better brother to him than Sam has ever been? I thought he was.

Clearly, Dean is a pretty unforgiving guy. He may forgive outwardly but subconsciously he remembers and resents every perceived slight made against him. That's why he resents Sam for going to college, being soulless, and quitting hunting. All those things measured up to a rejection of him in Dean's eyes.

What I don't understand is why some have so much trouble accepting that Dean might actually think Benny is a better brother than Sam. He may not think it forever, but he clearly thinks it now. What did Dean know when he made the statement? That he disappeared and Sam basically shrugged his shoulders and got a girlfriend. Why wouldn't Dean think Benny - the guy who never let him down - was a better brother when Sam had let him down in the worst way possible? I'm not sure why people fight this so much. It makes perfect sense to me.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-21 09:27
You nad Dean seem to have the same selective memory.

Dean disappeared and Sam got a gf. Thats all you adn Dean remember and latch onto. Sam also imploded. Sam also lost everyperson he's ever loved ahd cared about in the span of 7 years. Some of those people Dean...Bobby... ..John multiple times and in very violent, bloody, horrible ways.

Sam is right though. Dean is lucky to have someone who never let him down. Sam could only dream to have someone in his life whose never let him down.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:45
With respect, what else has Sam told Dean? He hasn't said his word imploded--he said he tried nothing and was all out of ideas, and then he got a girlfriend. So what else is Dean supposed to latch onto?

It's been said many times that Benny not letting Dean down is just an illusion--all relationships involve being let down at some point. Sam does have better than a lot of people in Dean, and I assume you believe that Dean does have a pretty good relationship in Sam.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 10:36
Emmau is right. Sorry. All Sam told Dean was that Dean disappeared and Sam had no one to help him look so he just got in the Impala and drove until hit a dog and got a GF. I'm sorry but that's lame. I'm a bi-bro fan so I criticize both when I think it's right.

Carver didn't do Sam any favors with this lame, OOC story. I don't buy that Sam wouldn't have looked for Dean, but that's the route Carver took. Given the story Carver's chosen to tell, I find Dean's anger with Sam and sadness about Sam not looking for him completely understandable.

Never before has either brother ever just NOT looked for the other so I understand Dean's shock, confusion, and sadness. Is Dean's position really that hard to understand?
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-22 00:46
Quote:
Sam could only dream to have someone in his life whose never let him down.
Do you mean other than Dean?

I'm sorry to jump in Amy but I think I just need to clarify one thing here. Sam always has Dean and Dean never let Sam down no matter what.

Dean's the one who essentially raised Sam, took care of him and always tried to make him happy. Remember when Dean stole next door girl's Christmas presents so that Sam can have Christmas?

Remember when Dean threatened to bail out of the motel and left Sam alone facing Lilith in "Monster at the end of the Book", Dean angrily threw his bag down and prayed for Cas for advise.

Remember their showdown with Zachariah? Dean said, "I looked at you and I think 'This kid brought me here' and I just can't do it. I can't let you down, Sam."
I remember at the time Sam acknowledged it that Dean has never let him down before that's why Sam trusted him to do the right thing.

Sam's not like Dean. While Dean's whole life is full of Dad's order and 'take care' of Sam, Sam never has to be responsible of anything other than himself. Sam has always been the baby in the family, the one to be protected.

Dean learns responsibility since very early age. While Sam's always the baby of the family. Before going to Standford he never been tasked with any responsibility other than his own life, his study, his training. Sam's never been responsible for anyone's life before.

This is also perhaps part of the reason why Sam is never comfortable around kids. Because he's been a kid all his life. Dean always see him as little brother. Whenever there's Dean, Sam's always can count on him.

I wanna see just once that the boys take a case involving orphaned children and let Sam be alone with them. Be responsible for them just for one day.

Dean has always been a father ever since he was eight years old. Being parents will change your whole world, change your perspective, change your outlook in life.

The key to make the boys understand each other is to place them in each other's shoes.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-23 07:21
No one can argue that Dean has had to be responsible from an early age but at that you age the only thing he would have been responsible for would have been Sam. Once he becaame a hunter that would have increased his responsiblity to incorporate everyone after all their ultimate goal was to save people. That also applied to Sam as soon as he began to hunt. They both became responsible for saving people and watching each others backs.

If Sam hadnt been given any responsibility growing up then those times we saw him as a teenager researching for his father, saving innocents aparently from at least the age of 12, taking care of himself when Dean and his father were of hunting would not have happened.

If you go back so season 1 there are several examples of Sam being good with and perfectly confortable around kids (Bloody Mary, Home) and what about the boy at the motel this season? What about those kids in Mommy Dearest? Perhaps you have the one episode in season 6 where Soulless Sam had to interact with a baby in mind and are now basing all of your judgement (regarding kids) of Sam on that one episode?

What about all those times Sam has had Dean's back or Cas's or his dead's or Bobby's while on a hunt? Is that not deemed responsible enough for you? Is that not being responisble for their lives? How about in Faith where Sam tries everything to save Dean from a certian death or in season 3 when he tried to prevent Dean from having to go to hell?

Sam has let Dean down in that he chose to trust Ruby and lied about demon blood and using his powers and this season Dean has seen Sam's descion not to search for Dean as a let down.

How about the times Sam would have perceived Dean to have been letting him dow, not being able to support his descion to go to college, not trusting him, going behind his back to kill Amy, sending a fake text message allowing Sam to thing Amelia was in trouble would be a pretty big let down.

Dean has always been a father since he was 8 years old? wow I must have missed that on the show.

Did you even consider that Sam was to be protected because he needed t be protected? Mary dies in Sam's room above his cot, Missouri told John a great evil had been present on the night of Mary's death which means a great evil had been in Sam's nursery. That had to have John's alarm bells ringing even without knowing abot the demons or even about what the yellow eyes demon did to Sam? John certainly knew some things about Sam before he dies and we dont know how long he knew them for but he was never suprised when Sam's abilities were mention by Missouri in Home and he knew enough to give Dean a warning about Sam in In My Time Of Dying. Perhaps the reason John had them moving around so often was because he was worried about the supernatural coming after Sam? Clearly he was protective of Sam because Sam needed to be protected, I think we've learned enough over the years to justify that.
roxi
# roxi 2013-01-22 20:28
With all due respect, to me, it's Sam, that has let Dean down repeatedly, not the other way around. I yes, I do love Sam, but, I guess we just are seeing things totally opposite
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 22:25
with all due respect it's Dean also who has let Sam down many times.The other way around which you say is not has actually happened.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-23 07:31
Thats true I can think of examples where Sam has been let down by people he cares about

-Ruby betraying him
-Dean killing Amy behind his back
-Dean sending the fake text message
-Cas breaking his wall
-Dean lying to him and being a hypocrite in the whole Benny situation
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-23 07:36
Obviously Sam's years and years of having Dean's back can easily be trumped by Benny's was it even a whole year of fighting with Dean in Purgatory where he had no temptation and needed Dean to be able to get out? Yeah I can see how Benny can be perceived as a better brother. Perhaps from now on when Dean needs his back watching on a hunt Sam should just look the other way?
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-19 21:33
Hi Alice, nice review. I didn't think this was a bad episode and many of the things that I hoped would happen did. Just HOW things transpired left a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing really feels satisfying at this point. The prolonged scenes of torture and subsequent stabbing of an apparently sweet angel, didn't help. This is probably one I won't revisit soon. It didn't have that SPN trademark mix of humour and angst that make the hard things a little easier to swallow. Lacking that, a few touching scenes would have been worked. Everything just seemed off kilter, even the reunion scene of Sam and Dean.

I am however enjoying the season as a whole but this episode would definitely get slotted in as my least favorite.
tia
# tia 2013-01-19 21:43
I saw both scenes of Sam and Dean kinda differantly. i saw Dean as indifferant. l didn't see Dean as apologetic for the texting incident. i saw him as just thinking "fine I am wrong again. you want me to say I am sorry fine". Dean infact said he was wrong. I wasn't sincere. purgatory Dean is not an apologetic Dean. He is a survivalist. He does what needs to be done to get the job done. Remember he said
He wasn't the same Dean back in episode 1. and he is not.

As for the last scene- If you look back at the past 7 seasons when the brothers are together having a beer and they are happy with each other with nothing "going on" between them -they click thier beer bottles together. I read the beer scene as Sam looking at Dean for the bottle click. But Dean turns away and drinks his beer. He is angry. But he knows he had to do what he did about Benny so he can get the job done. I also think the reason he called Benny was because he knew that now that he and Sam will practically be together 24/7 there was noway he can get to Benny. because Sam would kill Benny on site. so Dean broke it off with Benny.

As for Sam-Sam is just lost. I don't think he really knows what he wants. So he is staying with what he knows-what is comfortable for him. Dean is comfort to Sam. Even if they are arguing. The job is comfort to Sam because he knows it. He is comfortable with it.
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-01-19 21:53
I wish the brother scenes had been reciprocal in the admissions of wrong-doings with regard to Martin and Benny. If Dean was wrong to send the text, Sam needs to accept and acknowledge his role in what happened, and until he does, I don't think the relationship can really be fixed and move forward.
E
# E 2013-01-20 19:09
Hi Shelby, I am not sure what Sam should reciprocate for? I mean, what is it that he needs to apologize for and to whom? I am not being snarky, honestly, I just don't see what it is Sam needs to admit that he did wrong, and who he needs to apologize to?
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-01-21 06:29
You don't think Sam did anything wrong in 8.09? I think Sam should apologize or at least admit he was wrong to put an unstable hunter who had just been released from a mental hospital on Benny, even if Sam didn't know Marin was unstable, he knew he just got out of a mental hospital and this started the chain of events. also, Sam helped Martin leave a bleeding and unconcsious Dean handcuffed in the hotel room so that they could go and kill Benny, not just find him, but to kill him. as Dean said in 8.10, the truth used to matter to Sam, but it didn't seem to in this situation with Benny. also, I think it was wrong of Sam to have issued that ultimatum about Benny to Dean in 8.10.

The issues in the brothers' relationship are not one-sided, the issues are not just to be blamed on Dean. They have both said and done things that have been hurtful to the other, and it can't just be Dean who admits he was wrong, Sam has to too.
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 08:14
I'd like to add to Shelby's post by saying that I would like to see Sam not looking for Dean again because I don't think it's been really addressed. Sam apologized to Kevin for not looking for him, and I'd like to see Sam apologize to Dean for not looking into what happened to Dean. I'm not talking about Sam not doing anything to rescue Dean, I'm talking about addressing Sam not investigating what happened to Dean, to see if Dean died or just disappeared. I think there are a lot of unresolved feelings on both sides and they still need to be addressed.

Also, I think this past episode tried to address Dean's thoughts about Amelia and Sam wanting to quit hunting, however, it didn't address Sam's feelings towards Benny, and I think that needs to be addressed, the real reasons. Because I don't think Sam just saying Benny is a vampire is the real reason Sam has hated Benny and wanted him dead. Even if you ignore Sam's attitude towards Lenore, you can just look at a few episodes back this season and how both brothers, including Sam, were okay letting a monster go (Kate, the werewolf in "Bitten"). They don't seem to be concerned about her killing, they've never followed up on her. I think there is some resentment, guilt and jealousy on the part of Sam that Sam needs to admit to.

This past episode had Dean showing maturity with regard to his relationship with Sam, now I think it's Sam's turn because as Shelby said:

"The issues in the brothers' relationship are not one-sided, the issues are not just to be blamed on Dean. They have both said and done things that have been hurtful to the other, and it can't just be Dean who admits he was wrong, Sam has to too."
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 08:36
Well, much of what you want depends on if Carver decides to give Sam a voice. So far, he hasn't so we'll see.

If Sam's maturity in your eyes rests on whether Carver gives Sam a POV, you may never find Sam "mature."
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:17
Sam has had a voice. It just hasn't been used to talk about Dean. He has POV about normal, hunting, Amelia, and other subjects, but he doesn't talk about Dean. Granted, this is a pretty normal scenario for show, who is quite interested in having Dean vocalize all of his opinions about Sam, for good or bad but feels like Sam's feelings about Dean are a foregone conclusion that doesn't need to be discussed. Then again, Dean has had POV and it hasn't stopped some from questioning his loyaly, love, etc, for Sam, so I don't think it's the panacea some seem to think it would be.
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 09:37
Thank you.Quote:
Sam has had a voice. It just hasn't been used to talk about Dean. He has POV about normal, hunting, Amelia, and other subjects, but he doesn't talk about Dean. Granted, this is a pretty normal scenario for show, who is quite interested in having Dean vocalize all of his opinions about Sam, for good or bad but feels like Sam's feelings about Dean are a foregone conclusion that doesn't need to be discussed. Then again, Dean has had POV and it hasn't stopped some from questioning his loyaly, love, etc, for Sam, so I don't think it's the panacea some seem to think it would be.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 09:55
Quote:
Then again, Dean has had POV and it hasn't stopped some from questioning his loyaly, love, etc
Yes because for some Dean's POV is not something which is reliable or gospel truth it is just what you say it is Dean's POV.I do not think Sam's POV will be panacea but again only Sam's POV
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:58
Oh, I agree that Sam's POV regarding Dean would be a good thing. I simply meant to point out it's not a magic cure against criticism.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:29
Quote:
magic cure against criticism.
That is not why i want Sam's POV
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 10:40
Quote:
Oh, I agree that Sam's POV regarding Dean would be a good thing. I simply meant to point out it's not a magic cure against criticism.
Who said anything about getting Sam's POV so no one criticizes him? I want his POV so I can better understand his feelings, actions, etc. Getting his POV is just good writing!
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:01
Oh, then we agree.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 10:04
Sam hasn't had a voice. Sam said nothing about normal or hunting that I didn't know about him before or that I hadn't heard before. And Sam's statement about loving Amelia is just that - a statement with no context or basis. Sam has spoken about all these things on 1-2 occasions in one sentence remarks. That is NOT a voice, IMO.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:20
Once you start dismissing everything Sam says as not being his POV or inadequate, I suppose it's easier to view him as not having a voice. I disagree, obviously, but that's fine. If you haven't gotten what you wanted from this season re: Sam's POV, that's a perfectly legitmate perspective. Mine just varies on the no voice/no POV idea.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:36
Quote:
Once you start dismissing everything Sam says as not being his POV or inadequate,
and we are not.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 10:48
With respect, what did you learn this year from Sam re: hunting and normal? Sam doesn't want to hunt. Sam has felt that way pretty much the entire run of the show. Sam wants to have normal. Again, Sam has felt that way for much of the series. None of this is new territory for Sam.

As far as Amelia is concerned, their relationship was woefully under-developed , IMO. I saw nothing btw them so Sam's declaration of love meant nothing to me. Plus, I never bought into the idea that this was Sam's first chance at normal. In my mind, he had normal in college and with Jessica so this was never "new" territory for me. Maybe, you felt differently.

In any event, I'm not dismissing anything; clearly, we have different perspectives, which is fine.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:13
Sam has spent the past several years seemingly at peace with hunting. When Dean has wanted to quit, he has been the one pushing Dean back to the job, telling what they do is important. He chose hunting specifically in S7 as a way of coping with his hell issues. Therefore, reverting to 'hunting takes away everything and I want to be a real person again' is a different perspective than the one he's been operating with prior to this season. The reason he has once again soured on hunting is the loss of Dean and his ability for the first time since Jessica to believe that he might actually be able to escape. That is a change, and saying that it's not important because Sam felt this way seven years ago is dismissing character development, just as dismissing Dean's renewed sense of purpose would be dismissing his.

I would agree that the Amelia storyline has been woefully underdeveloped. But the idea that we're dismissing Sam's words out of hand doesn't work for me, and to me that's what ignoring them because they didn't strike the right emotional cord is.

As you said, though, we can agree to disagree, and that's fine.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:27
Quote:
they didn't strike the right emotional cord is.
When anything is underdeveloped is like when food is undercooked which does not stimulate my taste bud.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:45
It's all a matter of taste, isn't it? Hee.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 13:54
It may be a different perspective, but it certainly isn't a new one. That's all I'm saying. Plus I don't see Carver's changes in Sam as progressing the character; he's regressed the character, IMO.

Dean has been disillusioned w/hunting since S2. His renewed sense of purpose in hunting is actual character development. There has been no story told for why Sam suddenly hates hunting. Maybe if Carver had bothered to tell a story, I'd be less upset w/the telling of Sam's story.

As you mentioned, Sam had seemingly made peace w/hunting. To create unnecessary conflict btw the brothers, Sam suddenly hates hunting again. There is no real point to it, IMO.

What words of Sam am I dismissing? He said he loved her, and I never disputed that.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 14:23
Agreed, it's not a new perspective, but that doesn't mean it's not Sam's POV for the season. We're not really seeing any new perspective from Dean this season either, but that doesn't make it his POV. Sam has changed from previous seasons, and to me, there is a clear progression line that led him to this position, rather than just Sam waking up one morning and saying, "You know how I said I was committed to hunting as a lifechoice yesterday? Not anymore." He experienced losing his brother and fell apart. He came to believe that hunting takes everything from you and he wanted to remove himself from that world completely. He found hunts, but realized that it wasn't his prime directive to go fix it. He could choose to do so or not, and for someone who has felt trapped by fate, demon blood, guilt, etc, for many years, this is a step in a new direction for him, at least in my opinion.

But by your standards, Dean felt this sense of purpose in S1, so that is a regression as well. Perhaps a welcome regression, but it's still a return to an earlier mindset.

I agree that Carver created unnecessary conflict between the brothers, but I think it's really more rooted in the Sam not looking for Dean. There's no way to show two sides of that, so that point has been essentially dropped so Sam and Dean can instead debate hunting. I did explain above why I do think Carver has told a story about why Sam has changed his heart, though. It my not be satisfactory, but it is a story with a throughline, in my opinion.

Forgive me, but from my perspective, saying Sam says he loved her but I don't see it so he didn't mean it is dismissive. If you didn't mean it that way, I apologize.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 15:00
One, I never said Sam didn't mean it when he said he loved Amelia. I said that Carver didn't sell me on their supposed love, and that I don't believe she was his first chance at normal! That's all I said. The Sam/Amelia story sucked, IMO. That doesn't mean I think Sam was lying about his feelings.

Second, I never thought Dean regressed. His reason for disliking hunting was clear. John died. Sam was slated for a bad destiny. Then, Sam died. Dean's disillusionment with hunting was clear. He's come full circle, and that's fine. He's found a renewed purpose in his life, which is good.

Sam's arc hasn't been as well-defined. The writing for him is bad and vague, IMO. That's why I see his story as more of a regression than anything else.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 15:17
Forgive me, but when I read this:

Quote:
As far as Amelia is concerned, their relationship was woefully under-developed, IMO. I saw nothing btw them so Sam's declaration of love meant nothing to him.
It read to me that you didn't think he meant it when he said he loved Amelia. I apologize if I misunderstood.

I think my point is that saying that Sam regressed because he returned to a previously held point of view would mean that neither Winchester has gotten positive progression at this point, as Dean has done the same. I agree that his returning to feeling like he has purpose in his life is good, but this is the same approach he took to hunting in S1. It's not new, either. It's better than yet another year of "Let's see how deep in depression we can push Dean this season", but just as with Sam, it's not a new position for him. That doesn't make it inherently bad to me, in Sam or Dean's case.

I think the writing on Sam's story has definitely been weaker than it should be. I hate that once again Sam has no POV regarding Dean, so I have no idea how he sees his brother at the moment. But I do think that there has been a story and an arc, and it can go forward from an old position just as Dean has. I think he's already started progressing from the fatalistic, 'I have no choice' mentality that's plagued him for years, and that's positive. It's not the story I would have chosen, but that doesn't automatically make all the writing for Sam bad. But that's just my perspective, and mileage varies.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 16:19
Oh, I was typing too fast. That should have been "me," not "him." I'll go back and edit that. Your reading makes complete sense now, but that was a typo. Thanks for pointing it out :-)

The difference with Dean IMO is Dean's been in a 7 year depressed, "I hate hunting" arc that appears to have finally been resolved. I don't see it as regression at all. I completely understood why Dean wasn't happy with hunting. He's found purpose in it again, which is great.

Sam, as usual, is a walking plot point. He's written with no regard to the character but to what best suits the current plot. They could shown us how Sam's world imploded. They could have shown us the moments right after Dean disappeared so we could empathize with Sam, but that's not what Carver wanted us to do. We were meant to be upset with Sam.

Sam may have a story but little thought or care was put into it

JMO of course.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 16:39
Ah, that definitely makes more sense. Gotcha.

I agree that it's niced to see the end of Dean's depression arc, at least how it relates to hunting. It really didn't fix his guilt issues or his isolation issues, but I'm happy to table it because it at least means the PTB have stretched their imaginations a little bit. I do fear the "At least one of us should be happy line" as a return to misery, but I hope not. I like him finding purpose again, but it is still a return to a previous mindset, and if that's a problematic criteria in storyline worth, then it applies to him as well. But if we agree it's still better than what he's had lately, then that's good enough for me.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what walking plot point means. Sam has acted against character this season. In my opinion, so has Dean at times. Not looking for Dean is against character, but I don't see wanting normal and love to be something out of character for Sam. I agree that it could have been depicted better--I would have loved to see those moments you describe with Sam, but let's be honest. Show has almost always expected us to just accept Sam's love/affection/ whatnot for Dean without words or demonstration, while Dean's is spelled out much more clearly, because taking care of family is usually the bulk if not the majority of hsi storyline.

But yes, Sam does have a story, and some time, thought, and care went into it. It just could have been done better. I think the problem falls more along the PTB quote, "First we're mad at Sam, then the tables are turned." But they didn't resolve the issues with Sam, they just flipped to Dean and Benny and said, 'Well, he's done wrong, too.' It didn't help Sam--it just makes both brothers have black marks on their records this season. That doesn't make things better. They haven't resolved Sam not looking for Dean, and at this point I'm not sure if we're even supposed to think it's a problem. They haven't resolved anything, which is why 8.10 doesn't get a pass or fail from me, but an incomplete. I need more before I can decide whether they're on the path to redemption or if they really think things are okay. If they do, it's a fail.

Sorry, that was a lot. But for me, I really think that's the root of the brothers' ills at the moment, with each other and fans. Right now, nothing's really been resolved, and we've all seen enough dropped plots to fear what happens next.
E
# E 2013-01-21 21:55
For me, the biggest part of the problem regarding Sam's story has been in the total lack of character motivation and detail. Sam says he 'ran' after Dean vanished: How, when, where to, why? Where did he go? How did he suvive? What did he do? Nada. Sam says that his 'world imploded'. Again, how? What was the fallout? How did this affect him? did this cause him to hit the dog, contemplate suicide? what? Sam says that Amelia 'saved him'. In what way? What did they talk about? How did they help each other? Again nada. Sam says he had something 'he never had before'. In what way was it unusual or better this time? Why was this so important to him? Nothing. Dean asks Sam why he didn't look for him? Sam doesn't even answer the question. Its this type of thing, this total lack of detail that is so infuriating! How are we possibly supposed to identify or sympathize with someone we know so little about? The only clear pov Sam has had so far is in regards to Deans text message. In ten eps, Sam's reaction to that text has been the only genuine and emtional thing to come from him and also one of the only times he has gotten to explain WHY he felt as he did. As lala says Sam is a walking, talking plot point. He does things..he has actions.... He hits a dog, has a relationship, doesn't look for Dean, but we never get to learn WHY he does anything or how he feels about it. His actions (or inactions) have no context and therefore no meaning. Unless this story vacuum is connected to a really great reveal later on in the season that puts at least SOME of Sam's actions into context and provides even just a little motivation or emotion, I will be one very unhappy fan.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 23:33
Quote:
For me, the biggest part of the problem regarding Sam's story has been in the total lack of character motivation and detail. Sam says he 'ran' after Dean vanished: How, when, where to, why? Where did he go? How did he suvive? What did he do? Nada. Sam says that his 'world imploded'. Again, how? What was the fallout? How did this affect him? did this cause him to hit the dog, contemplate suicide? what? Sam says that Amelia 'saved him'. In what way? What did they talk about? How did they help each other? Again nada. Sam says he had something 'he never had before'. In what way was it unusual or better this time? Why was this so important to him? Nothing. Dean asks Sam why he didn't look for him? Sam doesn't even answer the question. Its this type of thing, this total lack of detail that is so infuriating! How are we possibly supposed to identify or sympathize with someone we know so little about? The only clear pov Sam has had so far is in regards to Deans text message. In ten eps, Sam's reaction to that text has been the only genuine and emtional thing to come from him and also one of the only times he has gotten to explain WHY he felt as he did. As lala says Sam is a walking, talking plot point. He does things..he has actions.... He hits a dog, has a relationship, doesn't look for Dean, but we never get to learn WHY he does anything or how he feels about it. His actions (or inactions) have no context and therefore no meaning. Unless this story vacuum is connected to a really great reveal later on in the season that puts at least SOME of Sam's actions into context and provides even just a little motivation or emotion, I will be one very unhappy fan.
I could marry this post! Haha! Great post, E! I couldn't agree more w/everything you stated above. You've explained very well why I'm utterly disappointed w/Sam's storyline.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-22 01:17
Quote:
For me, the biggest part of the problem regarding Sam's story has been in the total lack of character motivation and detail. Sam says he 'ran' after Dean vanished: How, when, where to, why? Where did he go? How did he suvive? What did he do? Nada. Sam says that his 'world imploded'. Again, how? What was the fallout? How did this affect him? did this cause him to hit the dog, contemplate suicide? what? Sam says that Amelia 'saved him'. In what way? What did they talk about? How did they help each other? Again nada. Sam says he had something 'he never had before'. In what way was it unusual or better this time? Why was this so important to him? Nothing. Dean asks Sam why he didn't look for him? Sam doesn't even answer the question. Its this type of thing, this total lack of detail that is so infuriating! How are we possibly supposed to identify or sympathize with someone we know so little about? The only clear pov Sam has had so far is in regards to Deans text message. In ten eps, Sam's reaction to that text has been the only genuine and emtional thing to come from him and also one of the only times he has gotten to explain WHY he felt as he did. As lala says Sam is a walking, talking plot point. He does things..he has actions.... He hits a dog, has a relationship, doesn't look for Dean, but we never get to learn WHY he does anything or how he feels about it. His actions (or inactions) have no context and therefore no meaning. Unless this story vacuum is connected to a really great reveal later on in the season that puts at least SOME of Sam's actions into context and provides even just a little motivation or emotion, I will be one very unhappy fan.
You got my back up in this post E! I think this is where the writers fail to do. In developing a good storyline details are important. They should spend time in showing us not telling us.

A good story is the story that not telling the reader about the character but showing the reader about the character.

For example: Rather than saying Sam is a smart kid and kindhearted. The writer can write about a scene when Sam is in a class, answering the teacher's question perfectly and helping his friends in a study group. Saving a stray cat or helping a kid against a bully.

From those scenes, without the writer even telling us that Sam is smart and kindhearted, the reader will be able to make their own conclusion from those scenes that Sam is indeed a kindhearted and smart kid.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 23:50
E has expressed my dissatisfaction w/Sam's storyline very well. I'm sorry . . . I just cannot agree that any thought or care was put into Sam's story. There is an amazing lack of detail in what's happened to Sam. He's made vague comments like his world imploded or he ran, but we haven't SEEN any of this play out. I've found that more often than not we are TOLD Sam's story rather than SHOWN it. That is a problem.

All of the questions E listed below are the exact same ones I have and ones I have stated on other threads this year. How did Sam's world implode? Why did Sam think Dean had died? Why is Amelia the best thing to ever happen to him? Does he love her more than Jessica? How did they save each other? What is so special about Amelia? What was so great about his time w/her? What did Sam mean when he said he "ran?" Why did he run? None of these questions were answered, and I have no hope that they will ever be addressed. That's why Sam's story is not good to me. The meat of the story was in how Sam dealt w/Dean's disappearance immediately after it happened and how his world "imploded." It wasn't in meeting some bitchy woman no one cares about.

And when I say Sam is a "walking plot point," what I mean is Sam is there just to serve the plot. He doesn't have any feelings or thoughts on the things that happen to him. And if he does have thoughts, we get one-liners or possibly an episode if we're lucky. For instance, in S6, Sam seemed to have as much guilt as Dean, esp. about the things he did while soulless but in S7, we learn that Sam feels no guilt for anything anymore. Sam displayed a healthy attitude re: guilt but I would have liked to see his journey to that point. We went from A to C w/no story in between! Why was Sam suddenly guilt-free? Because Dean was the only one the writers wanted to feel guilt so Sam's guilt was just magically wiped away. I also think Carver's take on Sam this season is also very "plot pointy." Sam would never NOT look for Dean, but since Carver just wants to explore the what ifs of Sam not looking, he does it with ZERO explanation. He can't even be bothered to explain why Sam thought Dean was dead. Again, the character of Sam wasn't respected when Carver went down this road. Carver had a plot he wanted to tell so he twisted Sam to fit his agenda. A good writer never writes for the plot, but rather writers for the character.

Anyway, crap like that occurs w/Sam all the time, IMO, and doing so, robs me of Sam's journey. I'm in this for both brothers, not just one. I don't want to only ever explore Dean and his thoughts. I'd like some exploration of Sam too. I want to get into his head.
RMF
# RMF 2013-01-22 01:38
Quote:
I would have loved to see those moments you describe with Sam, but let's be honest. Show has almost always expected us to just accept Sam's love/affection/whatnot for Dean without words or demonstration, while Dean's is spelled out much more clearly, because taking care of family is usually the bulk if not the majority of hsi storyline. 
What does that mean, exactly? That because the show hasn't done a great job of it so far, we may as well give up on the idea? One might say that after Sam's betrayal in Season 4, an examination of how Sam feels about Dean and about family is very much called for. And certainly, when the showrunner has an acknowledged intent to have a main character behave unexpectedly, it demands more than ever for attention to be focused on that person's motivations.

Quote:
They haven't resolved Sam not looking for Dean, and at this point I'm not sure if we're even supposed to think it's a problem. 
At the end of the last episode, when they were sitting on the couch, it seemed evident that we have entered the moving-on stage of the conflict. It also seemed that the chances of getting any explanation about Sam's actions had become more remote than ever.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-22 07:27
  What does that mean, exactly? That because the show hasn't done a great job of it so far, we may as well give up on the idea? One might say that after Sam's betrayal in Season 4, an examination of how Sam feels about Dean and about family is very much called for. And certainly, when the showrunner has an acknowledged intent to have a main character behave unexpectedly, it demands more than ever for attention to be focused on that person's motivations.

No, I don't mean we should give up on expecting show to allow Sam to truly examine how he feels about Dean and family--not exactly. I definitely think it's necessary, but experience leads me to believe that show just doesn't see things the same way I do. So while I continue to hope, I'd be happily surprised to see it happen. There are certain things I've found I've had to temper expectations on in order not to want to pull my hair out at the PTB's choices, and sadly this is one of them.

  At the end of the last episode, when they were sitting on the couch, it seemed evident that we have entered the moving-on stage of the conflict. It also seemed that the chances of getting any explanation about Sam's actions had become more remote than ever.

Sadly, this is another example of hope for the best, expect the worst. I fully think show's going to pull a "Well, it's in the past. Sam and Dean have other things to worry about now", just the way they did in S5 when an interviewer asked what had happened to Dean's hell PSTD. Perhaps the fan outcry in the first part of the season will be enough to make them address it, but we shall see.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-22 07:28
Rats, still didn't get the quote thing right.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-21 08:42
Sam was mature IMO he acted very honestly when he need to take a walk to make a decision , he acted maturely again IMO when dealing with Amelia.
He has not ranted and raved about Benny he has not betrayed Dean's trust he simply does not trust Benny and he has been open about that. He has not gone behind Dean's back and killed Benny .
I know we have been sadly again lacking in a Sam pov on his feelings and why he feels that way and the whole not looking for Dean and I know there are examples of the boys letting monsters live however for Sam there is a very painful example of trusting something Supernatural that ended up badly those scars do not go away.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:06
Dean and Sam have both shown moments of maturity this season and moments of being immature (ultimatums are immature 9 out of 10 times, and this one was), particularly in this episode. They yelled and refused to listen to each other, and they've talked calmly and laid their issues out. It's a give and take situation there.

He hasn't ranted and raved about Benny? Really? I suppose that's a matter of perspective because I think he's done more ranting and raving about Benny than listening regarding that subject. To be fair, he didn't go behind Dean's back--he just completely disregarded what Dean said and left him bleeding, unconscious, and handcuffed to the floor to go kill Benny. I'm not sure that's a big step up from what Dean did with Amy, frankly, so if we're still holding that against Dean it should be acknowledged that Sam's not pure as the driven snow here.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-21 09:14
No he hasnt ranted and raved has he certainly not my definition as for listening no he hasnt I would not deny that however coming in and telling me that neither is pure as the driven snow is pointless because I have never said that neither are.

I am not sure handcuffing Dean to a radiator is the same as what happened with Amy but it isnt a argument Emmau I will get involved with neither was bringing up both have been mature and immature I was talking about in this episode not anything else and I thought Sam acted mature that is all if you did not like that sorry.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:42
Did I offend you somehow here? If so, I apologize. I was simply thought I was engaging in discussion here, and sometimes discussion do tend to range. If you didn't care for it to do so, I can only say sorry.

We can certainly agree to disagree, because I do think Sam's done a fair bit of raving about Benny. I'm glad we can agree that Sam isn't listening to Dean anymore than Dean is listening to Sam.

I thought, since Sam has more than once linked Amy to Benny, that the differences and similarities between the two scenarioes was germane to the discussion. If you disagree, that's fine.

I think ultimatums, not admitting how your own actions contribute to an argument, and refusing to listen to someone else's point of view is immature, so I'll agree to disagree that Sam didn't show some immaturity in this episode (as did Dean). We can, of course, agree to disagree, and that's fine.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 09:57
Quote:
I think ultimatums, not admitting how your own actions contribute to an argument, and refusing to listen to someone else's point of view is immature,
This reminds me of Dean in earlier and current seasons
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 09:28
Quote:
He has not ranted and raved about Benny he has not betrayed Dean's trust he simply does not trust Benny and he has been open about that. He has not gone behind Dean's back and killed Benny .
Sam just handcuffed an unconcsious and bleeding Dean to a radiator so that he could go kill Benny. That's not any better than going behind Dean's back to me.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 09:58
Quote:
Sam just handcuffed an unconcsious and bleeding Dean to a radiator so that he could go kill Benny.
and that is bad how?
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 10:06
Quote:
Quote:
Sam just handcuffed an unconcsious and bleeding Dean to a radiator so that he could go kill Benny.
and that is bad how?
I can't tell, are you being sarcastic? If you are being sarcastic, then I apologize for not getting it, but if you aren't being sarcastic, and you don't see anything wrong with Sam's actions, then wow, and I'm just going to back out of any conversations with you. Have a nice day.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:19
Quote:
I'm just going to back out of any conversations with you.
Oh no my hearts bleeding.Dean has done much worse before frankly and good night.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:15
Did you really want an answer to this? Because if the reasons why that's wrong aren't self-evident, I'm not sure it can be explained.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:18
Quote:
Did you really want an answer to this?
Yes.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:37
Try it this way then. Let's say the situations were reversed--Marti n knocked out Sam, and Dean not only didn't say anything against Martin for doing so, he handcuffed Sam to a radiator and left him behind. Would you feel Dean was perfectly justified in doing so because they were having a difference of opinion?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:28
If Sam was only operating on Benny's word then yes.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:45
Really? Fair enough then.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 02:05
Yes. I don't think the words of the accused can be taken as proof.If and when any character does that and expects others simply to believe that when the other (me) has evidence of the contrary I can't simply take the word of the accused
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 10:11
So, I guess you thought it was dead wrong of Dean to trick Sam into the panic room on S4 then huh? Bet you had no problem with that but are now outraged that Sam handcuffed Dean to a radiator fully knowing Dean could easily free himself.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:30
Are we fighting now?

Seriously, though, Dean was not under the influence of demon blood at the time Sam chained him to the radiator. They were having a difference of opinion over what to do re: a monster, something they've done in episodes like 2.3 and 4.4 without anyone knocked out and handcuffed.

If I'm making you angry enough for "I'll bet you had no problem with that" remarks, though, perhaps it's best if we agree to disagree and step away.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:39
He was under the influence of Benny .Frankly he did not have any proof other than Benny's words and if he wanted Sam to trust Benny he should not have hidden Benny from Sam.I do not see Sam refusing Dean to accompany him to meet Benny Then again you may and that's okay
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:00
Under the influence of Benny? If you mean he believed his friend, just as Dean always does when his friends and family are concerned until forced to see otherwise, yes. That's still not on the level of demon blood. I didn't see Sam asking to meet Benny. He didn't seem to me interested in getting to know him or wanting to see things from Dean's perspective, any more than Dean's been willing to see Sam's perspective at times.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 11:22
The episode after Sam's introduced to Benny, we learn that they haven't discussed Benny. I highly doubt it's because Sam didn't ask any questions about Benny or didn't express any interest in Benny. Dean probably shut down Sam's attempts to discuss Benny. That is the more likely scenario, IMO.

Plus, don't forget that Benny rushed off when Sam first met him. Dean could have asked Benny to hang back so he and Sam could have gotten to know each other but he didn't do that. Dean let Benny wander off and presumably said nothing else about him.

Why is the responsibility solely on Sam's shoulders to reach out to Benny and get to know him. Benny is Dean's supernatural friend. If he wanted Sam to like Benny, he would have discussed Benny or tried to get Sam to know Benny. Even Sam in S4 tried to get Dean to like Ruby.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:54
Except we did see Dean give Sam explanations for Benny in 8.6 which Sam completely dismissed. So I'd say that it's on both of them at this point. I fully concede that Dean probably didn't want to talk, but Sam didn't want to listen either.

We did see Benny leave when Sam first met him. Considering Sam was ready to stab him before Dean gave him a head shake, I think it's easy to understand why Benny didn't want to hang around. Dean could have asked Sam to hang back and tried to smoothe things over, and that is on him.

I never said that the responsibility is solely on Sam's shoulders. I simply maintain, as I have been, that this is a two-way street. Dean has to be ready to talk and listen, and Sam has to be ready to talk and listen. Dean needed to try to reconcile Sam with Benny's existence, but when Sam immediately asks why he isn't dead yet and says he might kill him, I can figure why he didn't bring him up. I can also see why Sam would be bewildered by Dean's friendship and suspicious of the secret-keeping. Both of them engaged in behavior that has made the situation worse.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 12:16
I can't keep track of the episodes anymore so I'm not sure what 8.6 was. I don't recall Dean saying much more than Benny helped me survive Purgatory to Sam. I'm not even sure if Sam knows Benny doesn't bite humans. Dean has kept him in the dark re: Benny !
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:23
Quote:
If you mean he believed his friend
Like Sam believed in his friend Ruby?Quote:
I didn't see Sam asking to meet Benny.
I did see Dean hiding his dirty secret Benny.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:49
True, Sam believed in Ruby, and could not be persuaded otherwise until he was forced to see otherwise. In that way Dean and he are very similar, so Dean taking this approach shouldn't be a surprise.

When Sam found out about Benny, he had the right to be angry. But he also immediately decided Benny was no good and should have been killed by Dean immediately. He made no atempt to meet Benny, learn about him, or listen to Dean when he did try to explain their friendship. Dean doing something wrong does not preclude Sam from trying to understand the situation, just like Dean did in 4.9. Maybe he still will. We'll see.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 12:04
Quote:
In that way Dean and he are very similar, so Dean taking this approach shouldn't be a surprise.
Its just that if Sam has to learn from past then Dean should too.Quote:
But he also immediately decided Benny was no good and should have been killed by Dean immediately.
He hid Ruby from Dean parallel. Quote:
He made no attempt to meet Benny,
If i want my brother to like my vanpire friend then i would have to set a situation where they get to talkQuote:
Dean doing something wrong does not preclude Sam from trying to understand the situation,
Well if it precluded Dean from understanding Sam when Sam was wrong then why not the other way around
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:19
That's a good point. Perhaps Dean should take a look at Sam's past history and take that into consideration. I think that's why I think show went the wrong way having Sam draw comparisons to Amy instead of Ruby, because it would have definitely given him more pause. Still, the boys have precedent in believing a vampire can make the conscious choice to not drain people, and we have a precedent for demons always being bad news. Still, Dean should be cautious.

Dean did want to kill Ruby immediately, but after that first shot in S3 he did not do so at Sam's request until it was clear what she'd done to him in 4.21. He didn't like it, but he didn't actively set a hunter on her to kill her. So there is a difference to me.

Yes, I agree that if Dean really wanted Sam to be okay with Benny he could have done more. I also think Sam could have done more to understand where Dean was coming from, and he still might have his 4.9 moment. That's exactly the moment where Dean tried to understand the situation when Sam was wrong, so I disagree that Dean didn't try. If Dean can do it, Sam can as well. We can hope.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 12:29
Quote:
that Dean didn't try.
Dean tried oh yeah but he could understand only because Sam opened up at the same time as dean was receptive.Sam was receptive at the beginning of the Season Dean was not and has not been since.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:31
I'll agree to disagree then, because I haven't seen Sam being any more receptive to Dean this season than Dean has been to him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 12:52
And Sam didn't send anyone to ACTIVELY KILL Benny. He sent Martin to WATCH Benny. One difference between Ruby and Benny was that in season three and season four Dean continued to see Ruby on a regular basis. In season three especially, she wasn't off in the shadows doing mysterious things with Sam, she was showing up when they were BOTH there, giving them good intel on demons and Lilith, saving Dean's life in MM when the witch tried to kill him with the hex bag. In season four Sam was sneaking out to see her, but even then Ruby continued to interact with Dean at times, especially in the Anna episodes. Dean didn't like or trust Ruby but she wasn't the unknown entity that Benny is to Sam.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 13:20
True, Martin was sent to watch Benny, but since Sam believed that Benny was killing people he had to be sure of what Martin would see. Therefore, he sent Martin to gather the proof needed to justify killing Benny, something he hadn't done with any other monster they've let go. There was a little bit more motivation than, "I just wanted to make sure."

I think that's a very good point, though, about Ruby being allowed to be around the boys much more than Benny ever was. She always came in and out at suspiciously convenient times in S3, pushing the boys around like chess pieces, but it wasn't until S4 when she actively set out to divide and conquer. But Dean did have more time to interact with her, which does make her different than Benny. In that way, Benny is more like Amy than I'd previously considered. Again, good point.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 02:07
Quote:
he sent Martin to gather the proof needed to justify killing Benny
Keeping an eye does not mean he is looking for proof to kill Benny
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-21 16:07
Small point, but Sam kept Ruby his dirty secret for a time and probably for similar reasons. Worry about how his brother was going to handle it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 16:13
In season four, absolutely, which is one of the reasons I think Benny is triggering Sam. It's too close to what played out with Ruby, But in season 3, Ruby was upfront with not only Sam and Dean but Bobby. Yes, Sam kept the "what happened to your mother's friends" secret, but Dean knew what Ruby was and had a chance to interact with her. With Benny, he as been behind the scenes and kept out of Sam's sight so Sam can't make any judgement of him whatsoever.
E
# E 2013-01-22 09:03
But Benny rode around in Dean's arm for how long? How do we know that this hasn't affected his judgement somehow? When Dean took Benny into himself it could have acted like a kind of poison. Dean was also a vampire himself once, how do we know that there isn't some kind of residual leftover imprint that is making him susceptible to Benny and his wants?
E
# E 2013-01-22 09:05
Woah, missed my target.... waaaaay up thread to emmau talking about being influenced (or not) by Benny.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 10:50
My reply was to Liz.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 08:21
Why was it wrong to issue the ultimatum? Dean CHOSE Benny, not Sam. Dean walked out the door. The ONLY reason the boys got together was b/c of Cas.

And in the last conversation, Sam didn't re-issue his ultimatum. Dean gave one of his own - either all in or all out. Sam was too busy making that choice. He didn't even mention Benny.
E
# E 2013-01-21 08:51
I agree with Lala2. Dean answered Sam's ultimatum with a resounding "no" and then went ahead on the hunt without him. He was committed to doing the hunt without Sam and didn't want Sam brought in when Cas went to get him. Ultimatum given and answered IMO. It was days later when Sam made his decision to stay in the hunt and leave Amelia, and he did so BEFORE Dean cut Benny loose and not knowing he was going to do so.

It was Dean who issued the ultimatum to Sam at that point. "Both feet in or both feet out." It was only then that Dean realized that he needed to follow his own advice, which he did by cutting Benny loose (:cry:). There was no indication that Sam even knew that Dean had done so, not then and not in the final scene where they were both on the sofa. As far as Sam knows it's status quo between Benny and Dean. He choose Dean anyway. Dean has in fact done the same, making a pretty big sacrifice for Sam, but Sam doesn't know that, which has been typical in the writing so far this season. We know what Dean knows, does and feels, and Sam doesn't.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:13
Yes, I think issuing ultimatums is wrong, because it did nothing to help the rift between them. Dean chose not to be pressured into doing what Sam ordered, which is not the same thing as choosing Benny. If Sam had chosen not to go back to hunting after Dean said all in or all out, would this be considered choosing Amelia over Dean? Not to me, so that should go both ways.

And no, telling Sam to be all in or all out isn't an ultimatum to me, because Dean was fully ready for Sam to return to Amelia and normal. Sam was the one wavering between normal and hunting, and Dean knows from experience in S6 that that doesn't work for a Winchester. No, Sam didn't reissue his ultimatum, and I hope that means he thought better of doing so, frankly.
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 09:21
Quote:
Yes, I think issuing ultimatums is wrong, because it did nothing to help the rift between them. Dean chose not to be pressured into doing what Sam ordered, which is not the same thing as choosing Benny. If Sam had chosen not to go back to hunting after Dean said all in or all out, would this be considered choosing Amelia over Dean? Not to me, so that should go both ways.

And no, telling Sam to be all in or all out isn't an ultimatum to me, because Dean was fully ready for Sam to return to Amelia and normal. Sam was the one wavering between normal and hunting, and Dean knows from experience in S6 that that doesn't work for a Winchester. No, Sam didn't reissue his ultimatum, and I hope that means he thought better of doing so, frankly.
Quote:
Why was it wrong to issue the ultimatum? Dean CHOSE Benny, not Sam. Dean walked out the door. The ONLY reason the boys got together was b/c of Cas.

And in the last conversation, Sam didn't re-issue his ultimatum. Dean gave one of his own - either all in or all out. Sam was too busy making that choice. He didn't even mention Benny.
I agree with emmau, I don't see what Dean said to Sam "all in or all out" as an ultimatum. He wasn't saying "I will only be with you, hunt with you if you do this..." Dean wasn't trying to force Sam to do something for the two of them to be together. All Dean said was that you need to make a decision and fully commit to it. You can't do both because it'll get you killed.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 09:53
Sam could have very well wanted a setup like Dean had with Lisa that brief period. Dean made it clear that Sam had to choose. To me, that is an ultimatum.

And Sam's ultimatum was answered. Dean made it clear he wasn't giving up Benny so Sam never asked again. He didn't push the issue. Sam has seemingly accepted that Benny is in Dean's life.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:08
If Sam wants a set-up that's doomed to failure, should Dean not point out that it's not going to work? He knows it won't work, and he told Sam so. I think I'll agree to disagree with you there.

I suppose I'm not sure why refusing to cave into Sam's demands means he's choosing Benny over Sam. Why should Dean allow himself to be manipulated into ending a friendship? It doesn't mean he doesn't love Sam any longer--it means he didn't accept that he should have to give up Benny just to appease Sam. I'm not sure why that's wrong, frankly. ?We don't know what Sam thought about Benny by the end of the episode, or if he thought about him at all considering he wasn't mentioned. Maybe more will become clear as time goes on.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 11:30
No, Dean shouldn't point that out. Sam is grown and can learn that lesson all by himself. That's also why I wish Sam had been removed from the Benny story completely. If it ended in disaster, that would have been Dean's lesson to learn.

I'm not saying Dean was wrong. I'm just saying he did choose btw them. I don't record the episodes anymore, but I'm pretty sure Sam made it clear that he wouldn't return if Benny was still in the picture. By walking out the door, Dean made it clear that he was choosing Benny. I didn't see it as Dean saying he was too mature for Sam's games because if that was the case, I think he would have said something to that effect.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:56
I'm afraid I agree to disagree that Dean chose between them. He chose not to play Sam's games. I've already pointed out somewhere that this ultimatum was not unlike John's to Sam, and it wasn't Sam's responsibility to tell John that he was going to school regardless but still was a Winchester. I don't see this as any different.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 12:21
The only way Sam was agreeing to remain with Dean was if Dean stopped associating with Benny. What do you think walking out the door said to Sam? How do you think Sam perceived that response/action ?
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:27
I would hope that Sam would perceive that issuing ultimatums to people and asking them to give up friendships on someone else's say so is wrong.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 13:57
But you haven't answered my question? What do you think Sam thought when Dean walked out the door? And if Sam did think, "Boy, I shouldn't have given him an ultimatum," why do you think he would have thought that?

Could it be because Dean chose Benny instead of him? What do you think SAM thought when Dean walked out the door? He had to think Dean was choosing Benny.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 14:14
I'm sorry, let me try again. i'm not sure I can accurately say what Sam thought Dean meant when he walked out. Maybe Sam did think Dean chose Benny at that point, but if I did, I think he was wrong. Maybe he realized he'd taken the wrong turn. He seemed to recognize pretty quickly that sleeping with Amelia had been a mistake. Sam's a smart man--he knows Dean came to find him but was now the one walking out. That has to mean things took a wrong turn somewhere. It's hard to say what he thought, however. This is one of those times where I do find it sad that show rarely gives us Sam's POV about Dean.

That's probably not a much better answer, but I promise I am sincerely trying. Again, though, if Sam did think that, I like to think he realized his mistake fairly quickly.
E
# E 2013-01-21 22:36
I'm sorry emmau.... The scene plays like Dean choose Benny over Sam to me too, at least in that moment. Not only did he choose to walk away from Sam at that time, but then he repeatedly said that Sam wasn't needed on the hunt and that he (Dean) didn't want him there.. I'm not sure how we are supposed to view that other than as Dean having rejected Sam, which is in a sense choosing Benny. He didn't stick with that reaction, but it was his initial reaction. And once again Dean got to say how he felt and Sam didn't, he just stood there, mute, not offering his views or fighting back. It's likely that Sam was having a similar reaction as well, that he was just as stubborn on the subject as Dean, but they didn't show that. It's getting tiresome if you ask me. It's pretty hard to have meaningful character interaction when only one side is participating.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 22:48
Don't be sorry, E. Interpreting things a different way doesn't bother me. It makes the discussion more interesting! :-)

I will agree to disagree, because I think Dean's reaction to Sam's ultimatum and his appearing in the hunt had everything to do with the tension between Dean and Sam, not Benny. Dean was just as angry with Sam after the events of 8.9 as Sam was with him, and the ultimatum, Sam demanding he give up a friendship he knew was important to him to appease him, pushed him over the edge. He didn't want to deal with Sam, anymore than Sam wanted to deal with him. The deadeye Sam shot the door when he thought it was Dean instead of Amelia and his "I'm just here for the hunt" showed he was just as angry with Dean. I saw his reaction clearly.

As the boys worked together to break into the demon fortress and allow Cas access to rescue his friend, it was clear that they still worked well together. Then Cas went rogue, and Sam and Dean were united in WTF-ery about him. Sam realized that he wasn't ready to leave the hunt at the same time that Dean realized he should let him go. They took some time, said good-bye, and went all in, even if they still aren't very happy with each other. Hopefully, that will come.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 02:12
Quote:
The deadeye Sam shot the door when he thought
I know jared is very good with facial expressions but his acting and dialogue delivery are excellent so it would not hurt to have him verbalize and show and that too in more than one sentences dialogues.Like "I Ran" and imploded
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 23:54
Agreed, E. I don't see any other interpretation than Dean choosing Benny over Sam. Sam asked dean to give up Benny for him in order for Sam to hunt w/Dean again. Dean walked out that door. I'm pretty sure Sam saw that as Dean choosing Benny, and Sam would have been right to think so, IMO.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-22 10:42
Interesting dicussion. Sam did give Dean an ultimatum in that moment walked because he didnt know the answer.
His entire attitude in the motel room suggested that he felt he was right and that Benny was right. I think in that moment he was at the very least leaning heavily towards choseing Sam.

Given that he told Cas was gone and that Dean was pissy towards Sam when he came to help claiming they didnt need him I think it was clear that he had chose Benny over Sam.

I dont think it was untill Sam decided to stay combined with Kevin's earlier words that Dean changed his mind and chose to cut Benny loose.

I also think his sudden acceptance of Sam wanting to be with Amelia was partly fueled by his insecurity that Sam would chose Amelia over him (he was protecting himself against the descision he believed Sam would make) and partly fueled by his reluctance to let Benny go. I do think he may have felt that it would be easier to let Sam make the descision for him, if Sam decided to leave Dean wouldnt need to make a descion about Benny if he stayed Dean would cut Benny loose and could later blame Sam for it.

I do think Dean will resent/blame Sam for Benny's demise when Benny inevitably needs putting down.

Also thought cutting Benny loose was a clever way for the writers to absolve Dean of any fault/guilt when Benny started killing people. He was the one who carried him out of Purgatory but fans will most likely blame Sam for involving Martin who then made Benny fall ofthe wagon though I think its is incredibly naive to think that Benny was ever going to stay a veggie vamp top side with or without Dean's hand holding.

Anywho Benny's days are numbered regardless of fans reaction to him and Sam and Dean will always be side by side in the Impala because thats the nature of the show, that doesnt mean they have to like each other. All they really have to do is stow their crap and get on with the job.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:31
Quote:
If Sam wants a set-up that's doomed to failure,
Like the set-up of Dean's with Benny which is doomed to fail.(I personally believe it will not fail as it is Dean we are talking about)
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 09:58
Sam never pressured Dean about Benny. Dean asked a question, and Sam gave an answer. Sam wanted Dean to give up Benny. Dean gave his answer when he walked out the door. He may as well have said, "I'm not giving up Benny for you." His actions certainly said that.

I just want to know if you think Dean's ultimatum to Sam in S4 was wrong or John's in S1. If not, then I'm not sure why you're outraged by Sam's.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:11
Saying "It's either him or me" is to me pressuring Dean about Benny. I agree that Dean did not agree to give up a friend solely because Sam didn't want them to be friends anymore, but I still don't see where he was choosing Benny over Sam.

Yes, I do think Dean and John's ultimatums were wrong, if that makes my position more clear.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 10:37
Dean had just admitted that he manipulated Sam with the text from Amelia for the sole purpose of SAVING BENNY. Dean just proved that he puts Benny's safety over Sam's. So why wouldn't Sam say, "I'm putting my life in your hands and I need you cut loose the guy you have put before me."? This is the SECOND time that Benny has become a distraction in the hunt. The first time Dean left without telling Sam where he was going and ended up in a vampire nest in order to save Benny. Heaven knows, whenever Sam doesn't report to Dean where he is going and what he is doing, Dean is all over Sam like white on rice.

Sam can't ask Dean to not manipulate him, because Dean has shown himself to not be willing to do that. So he settles for asking Dean to stop working with the "better brother" who Dean has just told Sam is more important than Sam is. It may not be true, but it IS what Dean told Sam that Benny is important enough to drop hunting for, that Benny is important enough that if it comes down to hurting Sam or saving Benny, Sam is just out of luck.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:58
Considering that Sam's life was only in danger if he went against Benny and lost, I don't see how Dean was doing something particularly harmful to Sam's safety. It was wrong of him to trick Sam, to make him fear for Amelia's safety. But if we're considering Sam a full, capable hunter, then Benny was the one whose life was in danger.

With respect, they weren't on a hunt when Dean first got the call from Benny in 8.5. They were at loose ends and grasping for what to do next. I'm not sure why Dean taking a day off there is considered a distraction from the mission if hunting werewolves and whatever the creature in 8.3 aren't. Yes, Dean doesn't like it when Sam doesn't tell him what he's doing, and Sam resents that and considers it an infringement upon his independence. So if Dean is being a hypocrite here, it seems Sam is as well.

Dean never told Sam that Benny was more important than Sam was. Saving his life was important to him, just as saving Castiel's life would be. Since it wasn't a choice between Sam and Benny's lives, then I don't see where Dean ever indicated that Benny was more important than Sam. He was trying to keep them both, and his methodology was wrong, no question. But saying Dean considers Sam less important than Benny is wrong, or they wouldn't be together now.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:01
Quote:
Sam was the one wavering between normal and hunting,
No he only went to check on Amelia because of Dean and the choice Dean had presented to Sam was because of that
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:12
He was wavering on hunting in this episode, because he was considering Amelia's proposal before ultimately deciding he couldn't leave with 'all of this going on.' That's the wavering I was referring to.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 10:20
I'm with anonymousN on this one. Sam was all in until Dean sent the Amelia text. Sam made not attempt to go to Amelia until she contacted him. If he was not all in it was due to Dean's actions in using Sam's feelings for Amelia for his own convenience.

Good Lord, the whole fight is because Sam is all in until they close the Gates of Hell. Sam was a hunter, who knew where a vampire was living. As a courtesy to Dean he sent Martin to make certain Benny was clean. He was acting like a hunter and checking out creatures that hunters are supposed to kill. If Sam weren't all in, he would only focus on the Gates of Hell part, tell Dean to contact him when Kevin figures something out and only come back for the one case.

Dean wants Sam to be "all in" only when Dean deems it necessary. If Dean declares something or someone off limits, Sam is supposed to hop to it. If Dean wants Sam "all in" then he also has to accept that Sam will use HIS OWN judgement on cases, something Dean has had trouble permitting in the past sometimes rightly as in Ruby and sometimes wrongly as in Fallen Idols and Lenore.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:26
I disagree. He was all in until this was done (which is his right), and he made it clear that he resented being there at all, at least at the beginning.

I'm sorry, but Sam has been perfectly fine with letting monsters go before while knowing very little about them. So he was very much employing a double standard with Benny that he wouldn't with Amy, the girl from Bitten, Lenore, etc. It's not as simple as Sam's a hunter and that's what hunters do.

Sam wants Dean to be all in with him without Benny, and Dean wants Sam to be all in with hunting instead of trying to split himself in a way that he knows from past experience is dangerous for all involved. Sam wants his own way just as much as Dean, and he proved here that he's not above doubting Dean's judgment just as Dean sometimes doubts his. They're fairly equal in wanting to be the one calling the shots.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:30
Quote:
So he was very much employing a double standard with Benny
No he is not.He does not trust Benny
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-21 10:39
Benny that will remain a contentious issue because Sam has not just experienced the best of outcomes trusting something Supernatural and letting Lenore go and Kate was only after Dean agreed . Amy is to much of a minefield to get into .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:32
Quote:
He was wavering on hunting in this episode, because he was considering Amelia's proposal
and I am saying Amelia had a chance to give a proposal to Sam because of Dean
E
# E 2013-01-21 09:08
Martin was out of the hospital and for all intents and purposes ready to hunt. Therefore, Sam had to assume that he was, and Martin gave him no indication to think otherwise. There is no probation period for hunters, so he's either hunting or he isn't. And if being in a hospital to get treatment for your problems means you can never be trusted as a hunter again, that means neither Sam nor Dean can be trusted to hunt anymore either. Martin told Sam he was fine, that he was hunting, so Sam takes him at his word. This is Martin's problem, not Sam's. Even if Sam feels, in retrospect, as though he was wrong to bring Martin into the hunt, then he owes that apology to MARTIN, not to Dean.

I do agree that Sam shouldn't have left Dean in the motel room handcuffed to the radiator, and maybe he does owe Dean an apology for that. But this pales in comparison to that malicious, awful text that Dean sent, and IMO Dean still hasn't apologized for that. He said he was wrong to placate Sam and get him back into the hunt, and I didn't find it heartfelt, or genuine in the least. It was condescending and placating rather than apologetic, so I can understand why Sam wasn't in the mood to offer an apology of his own at that point.

The ultimatum, as I've said below was issued by Sam and answered by Dean with a resounding "no" when Dean left Sam in the motel room to continue the hunt without him. Ultimatum given and answered. This ultimatum was then followed up later by one from Dean "you're either both feet in, or both feet out." If Sam should apologize for his ultimatum then so should Dean. What actually ends up happening is that neither brother apologizes for either ultimatum.
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 09:26
Quote:
Martin was out of the hospital and for all intents and purposes ready to hunt. Therefore, Sam had to assume that he was, and Martin gave him no indication to think otherwise. There is no probation period for hunters, so he's either hunting or he isn't. And if being in a hospital to get treatment for your problems means you can never be trusted as a hunter again, that means neither Sam nor Dean can be trusted to hunt anymore either. Martin told Sam he was fine, that he was hunting, so Sam takes him at his word. This is Martin's problem, not Sam's. Even if Sam feels, in retrospect, as though he was wrong to bring Martin into the hunt, then he owes that apology to MARTIN, not to Dean.

I do agree that Sam shouldn't have left Dean in the motel room handcuffed to the radiator, and maybe he does owe Dean an apology for that. But this pales in comparison to that malicious, awful text that Dean sent, and IMO Dean still hasn't apologized for that. He said he was wrong to placate Sam and get him back into the hunt, and I didn't find it heartfelt, or genuine in the least. It was condescending and placating rather than apologetic, so I can understand why Sam wasn't in the mood to offer an apology of his own at that point.
We'll have to agree to disagree about Martin because I think Sam does have some responsibility for his decisions and actions there.

I also don't think Dean's actions were any worse than Sam's actions. They both should be held to the same standard, if the relationship is to be fixed. Just having Dean admit mistakes is just putting a bandaid on the relationship, until Sam admits his mistakes, the relationship will always be fractured.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:49
I'll agree with you, because Sam does need to bear responsibility for his own actions in that episode, which include sending Martin to spy on Benny without telling him and handcuffing Dean to a radiator so he can kill his friend after refusing to trust his instincts and at least investigate. Dean's wrongs don't automatically wipe away Sam's. They do both need to be held to the same standars, and they are both going to have to admit mistakes and make amends to fix the relationships. If Southern Comfort has taught us anything, it's that slapping band-aids and pushing down anger because family's supposed to make you miserable hasn't fixed anything between them.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:03
Quote:
which include sending Martin to spy on Benny without telling him
Without telling whom....and has Sam ever told he was not the one who sent Martin to spy on Benny?Quote:
If Southern Comfort has taught us anything,
The girl next door taught me something different.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 10:18
Sam did not tell Dean that he sent Martin to spy on Dean, and we've long established that keeping secrets is wrong for both boys, haven't we?

Okay, I'll bite--what did The Girl Next Door teach us about slapping band-aids on issues? Because Southern Comfort clearly proved that Sam slapping a band-aid on his Amy issues didn't actually work either.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:36
The girl next door and the resolution taught me that Dean keeping secrets is OkayQuote:
we've long established that keeping secrets is wrong for both boys, haven't we?
I did not see this point when Dean was keeping Benny a secret.Dean should be upfront first if he expects Same from Sam.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:40
Apparently Dean keeping secrets is not okay, since Dean keeping a secret resulted in Sam leaving him behind, a consequence that Dean does take seriously. Dean had to face Sam's anger and resentment for keeping Benny a secret, just as Sam has to face Dean's anger and resentment when he keeps secrets. Therefore, both of them have kept secrets and have both faced consequences, so to me show's message is keeping secrets is bad.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 12:33
Quote:
Dean does take seriously.
Not after girl next door
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:42
I'd say he did, since he was clearly unhappy that he ws out of contact with Sam after Sam found out. When he did find Sam, he worked to persuade him to work the case with him because he missed Sam. Dean does take being left behind seriously--this is consistent throughout canon.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-21 20:52
Quote:
I'd say he did, since he was clearly unhappy that he ws out of contact with Sam after Sam found out. When he did find Sam, he worked to persuade him to work the case with him because he missed Sam. Dean does take being left behind seriously--this is consistent throughout canon.
And never apologized to Sam for lying to his face after saying he was Sam's stone one and Sam should trust him. Why should Sam when Dean lied to him about something so basic.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 21:03
Except for the fact that he did apologize to him at the end of 7.6. He said, "I'm sorry, Sam." In my book, that is an apology. I'm also not sure how lying about whether to kill a murdering monster Sam overidentified with would be considered a basic lie. Unless you meant of course that by saying Sam should build on knowing that Dean is real as meaning that Dean should never lie to Sam again ever. That's a tad unrealistic, considering the honesty problems both Winchesters have.

Look, killing Amy behind his back was wrong. I'm not going to argue that. Dean apologized, and he clearly cared about the consequences he had to face because of that. That's all I'm saying.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 21:59
If we are talking about Slash Fiction The transcript for 7.06 is here
www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=7.06_Slash_Fiction_%28Transcript%29
As Sam is walking away, we get Dean's big apology.

Quote:
SAM:
I think you should just go on without me.

There is a long pause. DEAN nods.

SAM:
Go.

DEAN:
All right. Sorry, Sam.
I've been more sincere and apologetic when I'm late for an appointment.

But then we get The Mentalists the transcript is here www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=7.07_The_Mentalists_%28Transcript%29

Dean finds Sam after a week. They agree to work together. Sam is civil, but reserved and not friendly. So Deantries to rebuild the relationship like this
Quote:

DEAN:
You're pissed, okay? And you've got a right.

SAM:
Yeah, damn straight.

DEAN:
But enough's enough.
Because Lord knows DEAN gets to tell Sam how long he has to be angry and Sam had better hop to it on forgiving Dean. Dean goes onto say that if Sam didn't know Amy he would have done the same thing. Sam says he did know her and trust her and Dean says that that means Sam is too close and FAMILY HAS TO step in under those circumstances. When Sam disagrees Dean says he just being a bitch. At the end of the Mentalists Dean says this

Quote:
And as far as how I been acting... I don't know. Maybe it's 'cause I don't like lying to you. You know, it doesn't feel right.
Not one word about knowing that Sam felt betrayed. Not one word about promising Sam he would help him keep grounded in reality, but instead fed him lies. Not one ounce of interest in Sam's feelings. No it's all about how HORRIBLE it was for DEAN to lie. Why if Sam had just not thanked Dean for believing in him and letting Amy go, Dean would have felt fine and all would have been right with the world.

So now we are here with Benny and yet again DEAN decides that only Dean gets to choose if Sam has a right to be angry. Only Dean gets to choose if a monster can be trusted. Sam DIDN'T kill Benny. But Dean is all on his high and mighty because how DARE Sam not trust Benny the second Dean orders him to. Then Dean stomps off into the night. When Cas brings Sam in on the case. It isn't like the Mentalists. Sam comes and is willing to work the case the way the did back then, but Dean instantly rejects him because hey, Sam had no right to question Dean or ask anything of him. Dean tells Cas he doesn't need Sam and doesn't want to work with him. When Sam was mad, he sucked it up and worked to stop people from dying. When Dean is mad, Samandriel can rot as long as he doesn't have to work with Sam. Cas bashes some sense into both Sam and Dean and they do work together, but unlike the Mentalists and an close parallel to the Amy situation, Dean is willing to chuck saving the world because he is angry at Sam.


I HATED The Mentalists because it totally and completely dismissed Sam's feelings as being completely unimportant. I hate that in this episode, yet again, Dean holds Sam's feelings as completely unimportant and Sam rejoins Dean without getting anything that he has asked for. Dean may have dropped Benny, but Sam came back without that and I completely believe that Dean only dropped Benny so that Dean could be all in, not as any kind of gesture to Sam. However they are consistent. Dean's concerns are with his own hurt and feelings and he refuses to see how his actions have hurt Sam. And Sam tries to stand up for what he wants, and then just caves, because it's the right thing to do.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 22:20
So then Dean did apologize and he did admit that Sam had a right to be mad. While some may find the quality/tone of those words lacking, they were still there. That was my point, so thanks for the transcript back-up.

So I'm guessing your take on The Mentalists matches up with my feelings about Fallen Idols. That's fair enough.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 22:38
Quote:
quality/tone
Tone is the most important thing ( It is like how we have trouble to discern whether a poster is being sarcastic or genuinely curious while reading a post) ..same words can mean different things depending on the tone with which it is being said.For me Sam's tone in Fallen Idols and Dean's in the mentalists were different.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 22:50
Again, all a matter of perspective or interpretation. I'll agree to disagree if you like.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 02:15
Yes but also of dialogue delivery
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-21 22:26
percysowner,

Quote:
I HATED The Mentalists because it totally and completely dismissed Sam's feelings as being completely unimportant. I hate that in this episode, yet again, Dean holds Sam's feelings as completely unimportant and Sam rejoins Dean without getting anything that he has asked for. Dean may have dropped Benny, but Sam came back without that and I completely believe that Dean only dropped Benny so that Dean could be all in, not as any kind of gesture to Sam. However they are consistent. Dean's concerns are with his own hurt and feelings and he refuses to see how his actions have hurt Sam. And Sam tries to stand up for what he wants, and then just caves, because it's the right thing to do.
I think in many ways Sam is Dean's "better angel." He tends to be the more forgiving, trusting, understanding, and less stubborn of the two. He has (save for his stints as demon-blood-addict and soulless Sam) been the softer brother, whereas Dean's been more of a hard ass. Thing is - IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY. It's kind of how the show was set up, way back in S1. But - while Sam may be 'softer' in some ways - he is NOT some poor, helpless, manipulated victim. He's smart. He's more independent than Dean is. And if he didn't want to go rejoin Dean in the Mentalists, he wouldn't have. The reason he did was because he came to understand why Dean did it.

Sam: "I get why you did it - you were just trying to make sure nobody got hurt."

That was Sam's reasoning.

I am honestly disturbed by your interpretation of that episode: "Sam rejoins Dean without getting anything that he has asked for." Is that how relationships function? A tit for tat - you give me this, I give you that (reminds me of a song, actually)? Demands and ransoms? Sam can't go back to Dean without getting something out of it?

Dean dropped Benny to be "all in" just as Sam dropped Amelia to be "all in". Both characters were distractions. That was the whole point.

Yes, Dean can be a hard-headed, stubborn, thoughtless, narcissistic ass at times, as you've pointed out many times. It's a character flaw. They BOTH have them. One's strengths tend to be the other's weaknesses, actually. It's why they work so great together as a team.

I will re-post what I wrote before, because I honestly just don't get it:

Quote:
All this talk of fault and blame keeps popping up in my inbox...is that what this show is?

Is that the lens through which people analyze these characters?

Who's more at fault for what, who hurt who more, who blamed who for what, who committed the worse sin, or which fan or vague fan group somewhere on the internet seems to be defending one character more than another?

My goodness!
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 22:33
Good points, Bamboo 24. Both Dean and Sam are strong, stubborn men with good points and bad points. Maybe that's something we all need to remind ourselves of, along with your message about what lens we're viewing show through in our analysis.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 22:35
Oh yes! In relationships if you don't get something back sometimes there will be resentment. Neither Sam or Dean are saints so there is bound to be resentment and when Sam feels it so do I.Sam may forgive and forget easily but I don't.If you see the end of the recent episodes you will see Sam trying to connect but i don't see the same from Dean....Frankly it does not matter as Dean and Sam will reach the place we want them to be at their own time...but in the past Sam has been blamed for not going along with Dean for "running away"...so by following the same logic Dean is blamed by me.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-21 23:05
Quote:
Oh yes! In relationships if you don't get something back sometimes there will be resentment.
I'm not sure I'm understanding you - are you supporting the blame-games?

I guess I'm from the school of thought that believes basing your relationships on whether the other person reciprocates what you give them is unhealthy. Selfish even. Sam and Dean are brothers, family. They have resentments, sure, but they almost always put them aside for the good of the cause and/or for the good of each other. Sometimes one sacrifices more. Sometimes the other takes up the slack. Sometimes it's 50-50, other times its 90-20. In any relationship, especially familial ones, you have to be willing to be a little selfless at times. You have to be willing to give even when you're not receiving anything back. The brothers do this often, and we should cheer them when they do, and hurt for them when they don't.

It's this tallying up of apologies for the purpose of pointing fingers at one brother, adding up all the wrongs of one brother just to compare them to the other's and say that one has somehow done more wrong or hurt the other more that I don't understand. What's the point? Both brothers have flaws, and those flaws play out in different ways. Neither is a victim, neither is a saint. They're just brothers. You know?

Quote:
If you see the end of the recent episodes you will see Sam trying to connect but i don't see the same from Dean....but in the past Sam has been blamed for not going along with Dean for "running away"...so by following the same logic Dean is blamed by me.
You're kind of proving my point, here, and not in a good way. :/ At the end of the last episode Sam and Dean were sitting on a couch together eating and watching a boxing tournament on TV after both giving up relationships that were important to them so that they could focus on their mission - what could be wrong in that? They couldn't have been more equal in that moment.

Sam has been blamed in the past by who? And why does that automatically mean you have blame Dean now? See what mean here, the tit for tat? And around and around we go....
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 02:21
Quote:
reciprocates
This is what happens in a functioning relationship.Reciprocation need not happen equally or immediately but it has to happen.Quote:
And why does that automatically mean you have blame Dean now?
Because when someone blames Sam for every wrong that happens on the screen it hurt me and I have not forgotten that.Quote:
tallying up
I did not start the tallying up it was started long back when they started included the last of lucky charms Sam ate in the tallying up
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-22 00:07
I hated The Mentalists for the exact same reason, Percy! That was an awful episode, containing a crappy ending to a waste of time, pointless plot!
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 11:00
What I'm not understanding is why Sam must trust Dean's instincts, but most everyone is perfectly okay with Dean not trusting Sam on anything?

Look, Dean was right to not trust Sam in S4. I'm not saying he should have trusted Sam then, but are you saying that because Dean wasn't under the influence of DB then Sam was wrong to not blindly follow him? Is Sam wrong to not trust Benny because Dean trusts him? Why is Sam wrong here? Is he not entitled to his own thoughts or opinions re: Benny?

That is where I'm stuck. Most people are upset with Sam because Sam didn't welcome Benny with open arms. Why should he have?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:37
Quote:
What I'm not understanding is why Sam must trust Dean's instincts, but most everyone is perfectly okay with Dean not trusting Sam on anything?
Two reasons
1) Because Dean is the eldest
2) He said so.Quote:
Why should he have?
Come on he has got Dean's seal of approval, hasn't he?
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:07
Who is most everyone, and when did they say Dean never should trust Sam on anything?

Sam is not wrong because he doesn't trust Benny. He is inconsistent with regards to his normal attitude towards other monsters, and there is not explanation for that. Sam wants trust on his word, and sometimes he is right and sometimes he is wrong. Dean is the same. He may be right and he may be wrong. Sam wants the benefit of the doubt, and so does Dean.

I don't think that Sam should have been required to welcome Benny with open arms, but there's a lot of room between open arms and 'Why didn't you kill him immediately after you got out?' If Sam wants Dean to trust his word and go with his instincts, which it seems clear he does, he has to be willing to extend the same. That seems fair, right?
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 12:34
But Dean doesn't trust Sam on any level so why are people upset with Sam not trusting Dean on this one issue? For the most part, Sam does trust Dean. He hasn't outright staked Benny behind Dean's back, but he's still in the wrong with some people.

Oh well.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:40
I can not answer for 'people'. I can only answer for me, but I never said or believed that Dean doesn't trust Sam on any level. I think Dean does trust Sam in some things, just as Sam trust Dean in some things. They both don't trust each other not to judge them or not to think less of each other for their choices, which is at least partly why they keep things from each other constantly. Neither Sam nor Dean give each other their complete trust, so for me it's not one or the other with this problem.

Sam not outright staking Benny behind Dean's back doesn't mean he hasn't done anything. He went behind Dean's back to some degree with Martin and with his cooperation with Martin to leave Dean behind while they killed Benny without investigating the possiblility of another vampire. Just because he didn't sink to Dean's degree of wrongness (and killing Amy behind Sam's back was wrong) doesn't mean that what Sam's done is completely above board.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 14:19
Well at least we can agree that Dean killing Amy after lying to Sam's face is worse than Sam asking Martin to WATCH Benny.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 14:24
Yes, we can do that. If 8.9 had ended with Sam just having Martin watch him, we would have nothing to debate at all. :D
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 22:48
Quote:
If 8.9 had ended with Sam just having Martin watch him,
Even if martin was convinced benny killed?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 12:35
If Dean was unwilling to trust Sam's word and go with his instincts, which is clear he did, he should expect the Same.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 09:49
But what mistakes did Dean admit? He didn't say, "You're right, Sam. I shouldn't have sent that text message to you. I'm sorry." He said, " Well, if you had just blindly followed me, then none of this would have happened." That is NOT an apology, nor is it admitting a mistake.

And what responsibility does Martin take for his own actions? I used to think Sam was wrong for involving Martin but these posts have changed my mind. Martin was an adult. He looked for a hunt. Sam asked him to watch Benny. What Martin did after that point is on Martin. Sam was dead wrong, IMO, to leave Martin stranded in the woods, but Sam is NOT responsible for Benny killing Martin. If that's on Sam's head, then it's also on Dean's head, IMO. Dean knew Martin was still out there. He did nothing to protect Martin. He just left Benny to kill Martin. Why is Dean totally innocent? Dean didn't even care that Martin was murdered, but Sam's solely responsible for Martin?!?!? I don't get that!
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:56
I don't recall Dean saying that. I believe he said that his method for getting Sam away from Benny was wrong, even if he didn't think he was wrong to try to keep Sam away. I agree it wasn't a big apology, but he did admit to a mistake, and tone doesn't erase that.

Sam was wrong to involve Martin in the hunt without really knowing his mental state, because he was clearly surprised when Martin attacked Dean and started talking about how Dean and he should both be 'taken out behind the woodshed.' Martin is responsible for his own actions, but Sam set it in motion. I further agree that he was wrong to leave Martin out in the wood without a word, but Martin ultimately responsible for his own actions, not Sam and not Dean. Dean didn't leave Benny to kill Martin--he warned Benny to leave and warned Martin to leave Benny alone. Could he have done more? Probably, but that doesn't make him responsible for Martin's actions. Neither Dean nor Sam are responsible for Martin's death, in my opinion, but if you would like to concede that Dean and Sam's actions influenced Martin's death, I can do that.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:41
Quote:
without really knowing his mental state,
And the reason for thinking Sam did not know about Martin's mental state being...? Because the reasons you give explain why sam was surprised and was angry later on with Martin not that Martin is unstableQuote:
but Sam set it in motion.
No Dean set in motion by not being upfront about Benny.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 09:36
I agree that Martin was out of the hospital and responsible for his own actions. However, knowing the state of mental health these days, the fact that he was out of the hospital doesn't necessarily mean everything was all good in Martinland--if he voluntarily checked in, he can check out any time as long as he doesn't appear dangerous to himself or others. Clearly, he was still dangerous to others. Sam isn't responsible for Martin's actions, but the "Martin says he's okay, so it's not Sam's problem if he's wrong" idea doesn't work for me. Sam does bear some responsibility for setting this all in motion by putting Martin on Benny, even if he's not ultimately responsible for what he does while there.

Sam still went behind Dean's back to set up surveillance on his friend, and he did leave Dean bleed, unconscious, and hancuffed on the floor while he went off to kill his friend. Dean sending a text doesn't mean that Sam's actions aren't wrong. I also don't prescribe to the idea that if Dean doesn't apologize the right way Sam has no responsiblity to own up to his own wrongs. That's putting all the responsibility for the break in their relationship on Dean, and that doesn't work for me.

Dean didn't want to be manipulated by Sam's ultimatum, so he refused to go along. He didn't rush out to find Benny at that point--he just wasn't playing Sam's game. So I find the idea that Dean chose Benny over Sam not accurate. If one does view Dean's words of warning about being all in or all out as an ultimatum (which I do not, as Dean was fully ready to let Sam go and was giving him advice based on his experiences in S6), am I supposed to see that Sam chose Dean over Amelia? It certainly doesn't seem that way to me, as Sam had basically already committed himself to staying on the hunt because he thought it was the right thing to do. If either boy tries to paint himself the victim here, I'll roll my eyes. Hopefully they'll both own their choices.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:07
Quote:
knowing the state of mental health these days,
Really? Because how the state of mental health in supernatural world now is one thing i don't know.Quote:
Clearly, he was still dangerous to others.
Sorry it was not clear to me but then again YMMV.Quote:
Sam still went behind Dean's back to set up surveillance on his friend,
Much better than Girl next door if you ask me.Quote:
Hopefully they'll both own their choices.
Sam has owned up to his choices Dean's was discovered by Sam
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:08
Martin was clearly dangerous to Elizabeth, and he ambushed Dean because he didn't agree with his proposed actions on a hunt. Therefore, to me, he was dangerous, even if we're assuming the state of mental health hospitals is different in verse than it is in real life.

Again, Sam's wrong actions are not erased because Dean did worse/did the same in the past. If Dean was wrong to go behind Sam's back in Girl Next Door, then Sam is wrong to do so in Citizen Fang. We need to hold the boys to the same standards.

I haven't seen Sam own his choices/issues regarding Benny yet. We'll see if he does. We also haven't seen him address the clear impact of his choice not to even try to look for Dean has had on his relationship with his brother. I really hope we see that.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:19
Quote:
Martin was clearly dangerous to Elizabeth,
No he was not.Martin's dialogue made it clear who he wanted.Quote:
then Sam is wrong to do so in Citizen Fang.
It would be same if Sam had killed Benny after saying he trusts Dean's judgement on Benny.Quote:
I haven't seen Sam own his choices/issues regarding Benny yet.
Sam was very clear as to what he thought of benny. I agree the writers have not made it clear whyQuote:
Dean has had on his relationship with his brother.
Dean has problem with that not Sam.But Dean also has not addressed his choice of supporting his father pre season about Stanford and how it affected their relationship
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:28
If you bring a hostage into a dangerous situation, you are accepting the possibility that they are going to be hurt in the coming confrontation. Plus, to me holding a knife to someone's neck presents a clear threat to that person.

Sam was unwilling to listen to Dean about Benny, same as Dean didn't listen to Sam about Amy. The difference is that they knew for sure that Amy had murdered people. Again, it seems like Sam is being held to a lower standard, which is a bit insulting to the character to act as if he can't own up to hiw own choices.

Sam has been clear that he thinks Benny should be dead, but he is not clear why he is holding him to a different standard than Lenore, the werewolf in Bitten, Amy, or any of the other monsters that Sam has advocated letting live.

If we're pretending that Dean should have no feelings about Sam's blithe admission that he didn't know what happened to him and didn't even try to find out, then sure. But if Sam is the sensitive, mature brother, then he recognizes that Dean is upset and being a loving brother, should realize that he could do things to help his brother feel better, even if he can't accep the fact that he has hurt his brother. This is a two-sided fight. Honestly, we have no idea what side Dean took, if any, in the Stanford fight, and I don't see how that's relevant to the point I'm making.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:51
Quote:
it seems like Sam is being held to a lower standard,
where and has Benny not killed same like how Amy had killed people before Dean met her?Quote:
holding him to a different standard than Lenore
Because Benny is not Lenore or Amy or any of the monsters.He does not trust Benny.
If Dean is not the sensitive ,less mature brother that does not exempt him from trying to understand his brothers plight or his love for Amy.Dean does not make the effort for the brother "he sacrificed his childhood for".
The relevance comes with that there many issues where Dean has not even mentioned how his actions also are responsible for the rift in their relationship ...Stanford being one such situationQuote:
you are accepting the possibility that they are going to be hurt in the coming confrontation.
But not that he wants to hurt the hostage and Benny showed he was ready to die so Elizabeth was safe.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:02
Benny decided that killing was wrong and has not killed any human (that we know of at this time) since he returned from purgatory. That is different from Amy on both counts. She did not see her murders as wrong, and they were not 50 years in the past.

At this point, Sam has no indication that Benny is not like Lenore. He gave her the benefit of the doubt without Dean's endorsement, and he did the opposite with Benny.

I agree that Dean is not exempt from being understanding about his brother's feelings. That's why his killing of Amy behind Sam's back was wrong. That's why Sam's dismissal of Dean's feelings and trying to kill his friend is also wrong. They are equal.

Martin still took a hostage into a dangerous situation where he could not control all of the variables. Therefore he put her in danger.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 12:11
Quote:
Sam has no indication that Benny is not like Lenore
He had because he believed Martin and his skills as a hunter...Sam made effort so that Dean sees why Lenore should be left and Dean has not done the same with Benny
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:18
So . . . are you saying Sam chose Martin over his brother? Kidding, but seriously he thought Benny deserved to be killed long before Martin came onto the scene, and he didn't have any such suspicions from Martin at that point to back him up.

I will agree that Dean could and should have made more effort to get Sam to see Benny as he did. Sam had to be willing to listen, but Dean still could have tried more than he did.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 12:25
Quote:
but seriously he thought Benny deserved to be killed long before Martin came onto the scene,
But he only acted on it after Martin came into the scene
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:30
He sent Martin to gather the evidence, or at least reasonable suspicion, to justify that action. Dean went along with his suspicion and went to confront Benny with a machete ready. When he went back to Sam with a reasonable request that they investigate the possibility of another vampire, Martin refused and knocked Dean out. Sam went along with Martin to kill Benny without considering Dean's words/request, because he had been sure from the beginning that Benny deserved to be killed.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 22:55
Quote:
He sent Martin to gather the evidence, or at least reasonable suspicion, to justify that action.
No he sent Martin to keep an eye on Benny.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 12:28
Does Sam even know Benny is like Lenore? When Dean looked to Sam and said, "Does that sound like the Benny we know.?" Sam was quick to say he didn't know Benny at all.

I honestly think the extent of Sam's knowledge re: Benny is that he's a vampire and was in Purgatory with Dean .
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:34
True. Dean seems to think that Sam knows more about Benny than he does, and that lack of knowledge is something he has to take the majority of responsibility for. Sam knows Dean trusts Benny, which he knows is not something Dean would do if Benny was out draining civilians right and left. So he does know that Dean believes Benny is living the clean life. Now whether Dean is right or wrong is questionable, particularly from Sam's perspective, but I think Sam does know that much.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 14:15
I don't think we can say Sam knows that Dean thinks Benny isn't draining people. Dean flat out told Sam he wouldn't ever kill Benny so who knows what Sam thinks?
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 14:28
I think that's actually two separate points. Dean doesn't think that Benny is killing people--he's clearly been advocating him as a good guy, and he did turn to Sam and say, "Does that sound like Benny to you?" So he didn't think Benny was killing. But he did approach Benny with a machete, so to me he was speaking out of frustration/ang er/an attempt to needle Sam when he said he wouldn't ever kill Benny. He was prepared to kill him if necessary, but he did give him the benefit of the doubt and let him have a chance to speak for himself first, as I'd expect Dean to do with any friend.

What Sam thinks about Dean or his feelings is pretty much always a mystery, though, isn't it? That's frustrating.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 23:00
Quote:
frustration/anger/an attempt to needle Sam
This is also a part of not making enough effort so that Sam can get to know Benny..If he pushes away Sam then Sam pushes back...This is where Dean has to learn.I am not saying Dean has no right to be frustrated but at this moment when Dean is making his case and wants Sam to go by his judgement this not the way he can achieve that goal.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 23:09
See, now here we agree. No matter how frustrated Dean is with Sam, and I agree he does have the right to be frustrating, he's not helping his case here. That is pretty much Sam and Dean's relationship in a nutshell this season. Who knew Garth would be the sage? Dean and Sam are both talking, but neither is listening, and they're allowing their frustration, fear, and pain to push them apart. Poor boys.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 02:28
Quote:
not helping his case here.
Yes exactly.Benny is Dean's friend.He does not want Sam to kill Benny.So he should not needle Sam.That is not the way to get Sam to agree to you.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-22 08:26
well knowone wants their brother to kill their friend do they, I'm sure Sam didnt want Dean to kill Amy?!
MelT
# MelT 2013-01-22 14:14
I think Sam believes that Benny is just like Lenore. After all, Lenore started killing people and Cas had to kill her. I don't see where Lenore is a good example of being right about a good monster.

I think Dean can't see Benny correctly and Sam understands that. Benny was a brother to him in Purgatory? Sort of. But mostly Benny wanted OUT of Purgatory and riding Dean was the only way. I mean it was in his best interests to be helpful to Dean, he didn't do it out of love.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 11:11
Okay, but what responsibility does Dean bear in Martin's death? Above, you said you didn't hold either responsible for his death but here you say Sam put everything into motion, which ultimately led to Martin's death. Why is Sam solely to blame? Surely, Dean bears some responsibility as well. He's the one who sent Sam on a wild goose chase. He knew Martin was still in the area and was privy to how keen Martin was on killing Benny.

And I know you're upset that Sam handcuffed Dean to the radiator, but at least Dean knew what Sam was going to do. Dean straight up lied to Sam's face last year re: Amy.

How was it mature of Dean to answer Sam's ultimatum by walking out the door when most people would think they'd gotten the answer to the ultimatum? If Dean wasn't going to "play Sam's games," then he would have said something to that effect. Dean walked out the door to show Sam that when it came to Benny versus Sam, he was going with Benny.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:36
I didn't say Sam was solely to blame--in fact, I said he wasn't. That's putting words in my mouth, frankly. I said he set things in motion, but that Martin was to blame for his own choices. Dean can bear responsibility that he only warned Martin off verbally instead of making sure he didn't take Elizabeth hostage, I suppose. He did send Sam on a wild goose chase to save Benny, which left Martin unsupervised because Sam left him out in the woods. So all right, he can take responsibility for that. Martin's choices are still his.

Dean knowing Sam was going to kill his friend doesn't really absolve Sam. Dean doing wrong in the past is not a free pass for Sam in the present.

I fully admit that Sam and Dean have both shown immaturity and maturity in this episode. Refusing to engage in someone else manipulation, to me, however, is not one of those moments. He could have said that to Sam, but that seems to put the onus on Dean for not reacting to Sam's wrong actions the 'right' way.

You know, John's ultimatum to Sam plays a good parallel here. John laid down the ultimatum, and Sam walked out the door. It wasn't on him to reassure John or tell him that his games were wrong. John had to come to that realization on his own, and maybe Sam did, too. He certainly didn't play that card again at the end of the episode, so maybe Dean walking away made him realize that taking John's my way or the highway approach didn't work any better than him than it did for John.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:54
Quote:
and maybe Sam did, too.
I don't think so
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 12:01
But to what end? You hold Sam responsible for setting things into motion but not Martin's death? That doesn't make sense to me. How can you separate the two? Why fault Sam for setting Martin down Benny's path if Martin's death isn't Sam's fault? If Martin's death is solely on Martin, then does it matter if Sam put Martin on Benny's path? It shouldn't if you follow that logic.

I honestly think Benny was the furthest thing from Sam's mind at the end of the episode. Plus, Dean already made his choice re: Benny. Sam got his answer; Benny isn't going anywhere.
E
# E 2013-01-22 17:49
If we are discussing how the Martin situation even got started, then it actually didn't begin with Sam asking Martin to watch out for Benny... it began with Dean's silence. Sam asked several times outright, and it was implied several more times that Dean was keeping silent. Sam decided that if Dean would not provide answers that he'd get his own... that is Sam's way. So, had Dean been up front and open with Sam then there would have been no need for Martin.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 10:49
I do agree that most of the apologies Sam owes are to Martin, not Dean. He does owe Dean one for leaving him handcuffed to the radiator.

The ironic thing is that for the most part the hunters that live to an old age are not doing "all in", but instead do have "one foot in, one foot out" Bobby straddled the worlds and only got dead once his home base was destroyed. Ellen straddled the hunting world, more out than in, but still in until HER home base was destroyed and she jumped all in to hunt with Jo. Rufus hunted for years, but had his cabin and seemed to have settled at times. The hunters who stay alive the longest are the ones that have a place to go and decompress when they need to, not be constantly on the go running from hunt to hunt. Dean's if you are not all in, is less true than he thinks. Dean is just believing in John's philosophy.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:03
In the end, though, all of the hunters you just mentioned with one foot in and one foot out are dead. Dean is going off of his own experience with Lisa and Ben--he tried half in and half out and nearly killed them as a vampire, then nearly got them killed with Crowley. So I'd say he definitely has reason to believe that being half in and half out leads to death.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 11:44
Quote:
In the end, though, all of the hunters you just mentioned with one foot in and one foot out are dead.
After some of them were all in.I know Sam and Dean are protagonists so they will be alive till at least the last episode but Sam and Dean do not know that..They are perfectly justified to settle
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-19 23:05
so watching sam and amelia last nite, i thought to myself, there is no way that sam is in love with this woman. we had a hollow goodbye, a hollow beginning and a hollow middle....not a single ounce of substance between these two people.

even when sam said the word...that he loved her, it didn't ring true to me. he said it to dean right? i think he said it to dean in response to how crappy it was that dean would send a text like that. using emotional blackmail. everything sam said last night to amelia seemed scripted to me. like he was reciting words that were handed him instead of saying words from his heart...he reminded me of souless sam....souless sam would pick out his words that he thought he should say, but he was faking them...that's how it felt watching sam. he never even told her who he really was or what he did. this is sam running..runnin g away from who he is. this isn't about love, this is about escape..escape from the horror of his life.

did anyone else notice that there was no kiss goodbye. there was no hug. there wasn't a tear shed. it was just so matter of fact. and i still find it odd that in 10 eps, sam was never shown being intimate with amelia.

imo, sam is not in love with this girl, but i do think he loved the fact that he could be normal with her.

by 10 pm last night i was convinced that the sam and amelia relationship was set up, much like the dean and benny relationship was.

i think the angels are the culprits here and it's all about these tablets.

naomi wants to find the tablets. my guess is she doesn't want life for angels to come to an end. but the tablets are the words of God, which means that for all intent purposes, God will someday end everything, including angels and demons. death even told dean that he would probably reap God one day.

so my take is this...heaven is divided. naomi is much like zachariah with her own agenda. she has to find the tablets first. dean wasn't a problem as he was in purgatory. that was just lucky for naomi. but sam, sam was still here and sam had to be dealt with. i think amelia may very well be one of naomi's flunkies. i think amelia's job was to keep sam from hunting, which by the way worked.

but then something quite coincidental happened...both dean and don show up at the same time. it seems somebody wanted dean back in the hunting game as well as sam. i think there's another player...i think someone else wants the tablets as well. perhaps there are angels who believe that those tablets are the words of God and they need to be protected ...from everyone. i think it was that angel who helped get dean out and that angel who brought back dearly departed don. someone was watching sam leave amelia that nite, and i think that someone wanted sam back with his brother...back to the hunt...back to finding the tablets. maybe it's metatron himself that wants the boys to find the tablets before naomi..he wrote them after all.

it's my belief that whoever wanted dean out of purgatory leaked to benny about dean being the loophole. but if you recall, benny used the term "they" when telling dean where the window was. i think naomi found out that another angel went to benny and she made her move. she doesn't seem to have a problem killing angels so i wouldn't be surprised if she killed the angel who went to benny and then she had a little convo with benny herself.

i think she told benny that he had to earn dean's trust...so of course benny did everything right...fought by his side, saved his life and then ultimately led him to the window. but benny's job didn't end there...with dean out he needed to be distracted. cue in benny. the only time benny called dean was to have him help him kill a fellow vamp or to stop him from killing a human...which i think is so bogus cuz wherever dean is, he's always at least a few days drive away from benny and it's highly unlikely he can curb the urge. alcoholics call their sponsors the moment they start to crumble and those sponsors are there for them in a matter of minutes.

i know there are a lot of benny fans out there, so i'll apologize in advance, but imo , he's not the good sparkly vamp dean, which in turn all of dean's fans, feel he is. i think benny is bad news. he's going to kill someone again and though it won't be dean's fault, dean will be partially responsible because he let benny loose on society in the first place. and i think that's exactly why benny was chosen for dean to begin with...because if anyone knows the winchesters, it seems to be the higher powers and they know how to play them...anyone who knows dean knows that dean would hold himself responsible for benny..if benny kills, it's on dean....so dean will make sure benny stays clean...see it's the perfect distraction for dean...it's a very good plan and it worked for 10 eppys

i keep thinking, of all the creatures in purgatory more interesting than a vamp, why choose a vamp? my take on it....vamps are closest to being human as they were one once, so it's easy for dean to feel empathy, after all he's done so before with lenore...and two, a vamp is a vamp and will always act on his need to feed .....as long as benny makes like he needs dean to stay human, dean will feel responsible for him and thus be distracted from what he's really meant to do...which is go after the tablets.

it's is my very strong belief that both benny and amelia were purposely put into sam and dean's life to keep them from doing their job ..and i think the angels are involved...perh aps crowley too....they've done it before in s4 and it nearly worked. i think naomi felt confident enough she would make it work this time...that she would succeed where zachariah failed...

this episode seemed to be about decision and coming to terms with who the boys are.

dean....he had to decide if he wants to be a babysitter or does he want to save the world.

sam...he had to decide if he wanted to be normal and mundane,( and not with amelia, as he would never have stayed with a married woman...sam isn't like that. and like i said, he didn't love her...he loved the normal life he experienced with her...but i do think he was greatful to her),
or be a hunter and save the world...

both chose hunting, and therefore ea. other.

as to dean being all pissy, i think it has to do with the fact that he's angry with himself. dean didn't make that call to benny because of sam, well maybe a little sam, but mostly he made the call because he can'tdo his job if benny is calling every 5 min to make sure he doesn't kill someone. but dean also knows that if benny kills, like i know he will, then it's partially on him, because he went against his very own rules and let a monster roam free on society, knowing full well that in time, benny would succumb to his true nature...after all that was the speech he gave amy right before he wasted her.
E
# E 2013-01-20 11:48
I really like this take on the current state of affairs and it goes along the lines of what I have been pondering. I think that there are players and characters that are crucial that we don't even know about yet. I love the idea that all three of the main protagonists are being manipulated. What if they all have a 'thingy' imbedded in their eyes and are taking suggestions from Naomi? That would be pretty awesome.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-20 12:04
Quote:
I love the idea that all three of the main protagonists are being manipulated.
Yes! I have that theory too :D It would be really interesting to see how they fixed it!
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 13:15
I think fans in general have a healthy skepticism about Bennny. I am taking him at face value until it is shown that he is otherwise. I don't think Dean leaning fans are any more invested in him being " good" than others. Some fans want him to be "bad" just so Dean can be wrong. Right now he appears sympathetic so that is how I view him but I am up for and expect twists.

I agree that Dean is feeling bad about and responsible for Benny. For all his defensiveness I think Dean is very conflicted about Benny. I think the parting of the ways was both about getting the job done and Sam. More than a liitle.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 13:19
Sorry, meant as a reply to nappi815 above.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-20 21:21
Quote:
so watching sam and amelia last nite, i thought to myself, there is no way that sam is in love with this woman. we had a hollow goodbye, a hollow beginning and a hollow middle....not a single ounce of substance between these two people.

even when sam said the word...that he loved her, it didn't ring true to me. he said it to dean right? i think he said it to dean in response to how crappy it was that dean would send a text like that. using emotional blackmail. everything sam said last night to amelia seemed scripted to me. like he was reciting words that were handed him instead of saying words from his heart...he reminded me of souless sam....souless sam would pick out his words that he thought he should say, but he was faking them...that's how it felt watching sam. he never even told her who he really was or what he did. this is sam running..running away from who he is. this isn't about love, this is about escape..escape from the horror of his life.

did anyone else notice that there was no kiss goodbye. there was no hug. there wasn't a tear shed. it was just so matter of fact. and i still find it odd that in 10 eps, sam was never shown being intimate with amelia.

imo, sam is not in love with this girl, but i do think he loved the fact that he could be normal with her.

by 10 pm last night i was convinced that the sam and amelia relationship was set up, much like the dean and benny relationship was.
Hi Nappi! Thank you for pointing that out. This has been bugging me too. So, I guess your theory is sound. You're right however what I'm worried is that Sam's self confidence is so low that he'll take any woman, anyone that can put up with him and as damaged as him and he'll be grateful.

I believe Sam deserves soooo much better than that but there's still few months after Roman's banishment that's still in question. What happened at that time right after Dean had disappeared? Something bad? That stripped Sam off of his usual self confidence and balance and reason and his smarts? Something bad that made him give up looking for Dean and trying too hard to get Amelia's attention?

About Benny. There are things that makes me distrust him either and I think -bear in mind I/m not speaking based of canon facts, just the gut feeling that I have- that deep down inside Dean didn't fully distrust Benny too.

- He's ready to chop Benny's head off once he heard the news that the Vamp's been dropping people. The one that he considers brother in arms.
- Dean's good at lying to himself. He may have convinced himself that Benny is to be trusted.
-He never ever talk with Sam about Benny and never ever confront Benny about they who told him about the Purgatory gate. Could be he's afraid that if he confronts Benny, he'll get disappointed.
- I can believe that Dean feels alone. After returning from Purgatory he find Sam is not the same and he hold on onto one thing that's close to him at the moment, Benny. He's not ready to distrust Benny despite what his hunter instinct told him to.
- Just like what happened to the altered memory of his escape, Dean's perception about Benny may not have been the truth. It's also possible that Dean may have convinced himself that Benny is good and to be trusted.
-This man changed his own memory once, there's possibility that his whole perspective in Purg was also skewed.

I have suspicion that we haven't met all the players yet. Sam and Dean are caught among the war of the tablet between the Angels and Demons.

This is one possible scenario: Crowley wanted to get rid of Sam without having to do it directly because if he attack Sam directly, Sam would get suspicious of what he was up to. Crowley then made a plan to distract Sam and as the result, he had made Sam run away from looking for his brother. Because Crowley knew that each Winchester is dangerous but together they are a menace. He would postpone their reunion as long as he could.

The Angels wants the demon tablet because if Crowley manages to decipher it then the location of the Angel tablet will be revealed. That means the end for the Angels. The Angels (probably Naomi , probably someone else) sent Benny to get Dean out. It's probably not Naomi who get Dean out because she said that just to get Cas out they've lost many angels.

Now, if there is the third character at play here then it makes sense. This Evil character no 3 (I will call it 3) has their own agenda and purpose to send Benny to get Dean out but only Dean not Cas. When Naomi knows this and get Cas out by herself and told him to spy on Dean. To spy on Dean only because Dean is close to Benny and Benny is close to #3.

This Evil character no 3 is a chess player and the owner of the board. Sam, Dean and Cas are played. No. 3 works behind the shield.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-21 22:28
Quote:
so watching sam and amelia last nite, i thought to myself, there is no way that sam is in love with this woman. we had a hollow goodbye, a hollow beginning and a hollow middle....not a single ounce of substance between these two people.

even when sam said the word...that he loved her, it didn't ring true to me. he said it to dean right? i think he said it to dean in response to how crappy it was that dean would send a text like that. using emotional blackmail. everything sam said last night to amelia seemed scripted to me. like he was reciting words that were handed him instead of saying words from his heart...he reminded me of souless sam....souless sam would pick out his words that he thought he should say, but he was faking them...that's how it felt watching sam. he never even told her who he really was or what he did. this is sam running..running away from who he is. this isn't about love, this is about escape..escape from the horror of his life.

did anyone else notice that there was no kiss goodbye. there was no hug. there wasn't a tear shed. it was just so matter of fact. and i still find it odd that in 10 eps, sam was never shown being intimate with amelia.

imo, sam is not in love with this girl, but i do think he loved the fact that he could be normal with her.

by 10 pm last night i was convinced that the sam and amelia relationship was set up, much like the dean and benny relationship was.
Hi Nappi! Thank you for pointing that out. This has been bugging me too. So, I guess your theory is sound. You're right however what I'm worried is that Sam's self confidence is so low that he'll take any woman, anyone that can put up with him and as damaged as him and he'll be grateful.

I believe Sam deserves soooo much better than that but there's still few months after Roman's banishment that's still in question. What happened at that time right after Dean had disappeared? Something bad? That stripped Sam off of his usual self confidence and balance and reason and his smarts? Something bad that made him give up looking for Dean and trying too hard to get Amelia's attention?

About Benny. There are things that makes me distrust him either and I think -bear in mind I/m not speaking based of canon facts, just the gut feeling that I have- that deep down inside Dean didn't fully distrust Benny too.

- He's ready to chop Benny's head off once he heard the news that the Vamp's been dropping people. The one that he considers brother in arms.
- Dean's good at lying to himself. He may have convinced himself that Benny is to be trusted.
-He never ever talk with Sam about Benny and never ever confront Benny about they who told him about the Purgatory gate. Could be he's afraid that if he confronts Benny, he'll get disappointed.
- I can believe that Dean feels alone. After returning from Purgatory he find Sam is not the same and he hold on onto one thing that's close to him at the moment, Benny. He's not ready to distrust Benny despite what his hunter instinct told him to.
- Just like what happened to the altered memory of his
escape, Dean's perception about Benny may not have been the truth. It's also possible that Dean may have convinced himself that Benny is good and to be trusted.
-This man changed his own memory once, there's possibility that his whole perspective in Purg was also skewed.
I have suspicion that we haven't met all the players yet. Sam and Dean are caught among the war of the tablet between the Angels and Demons.


i totally agree with everything you said. i'd just like to add something else and see what your take is on it...since we seem to be on the same wavelength.

let me just say this. i think that dean is lying to himself about benny much the same way that sam is lying to himself in regards to "loving" amelia.

i don't believe sam loves amelia. i believe he loved the notion of living a normal life with someone. the fact that this girl is like dean in so many ways is a very big attraction for sam, if you ask me. but basically this relationship is based on desperation and lies. sam never told her the truth about who he was. like i said, sam was running...she was his escape...but you can't live in a fantasy world forever and i think he realized that, thus his decision to get back to his life...hunting.

dean, as you and i agree on, is lying to himself concerning benny. imo dean needs to believe benny is a real friend because otherwise, dean has to face the fact that he was used. he was taken advantage of when he was scared and alone...he'd have to admit vulnerability and dean just can't admit that about himself. for all the reasons you and i stated, dean doesn't trust benny as much as he claims he does. i still think all those digs at sam about benny never letting him down were more about dean trying to convince himself.

i don't know if you had noticed, but in sc when dean went into that rant and listed every mistake sam ever made as if dean was his parole officer, everything sam had done then, dean has done now. he mentioned the demon blood, yet dean let a vampire inside him, he mentioned souless sam not telling him for a year he was alive, dean was keeping benny from sam. it just seems that even though he was yelling at sam for all his mistakes, i feel as though he was also yelling at himself for his current ones. jmo of course.

sorry, digressed a bit. what i wanted to say has to do with sam's ultimatum. which can i just say, i was real happy that sam got to finally make one of his own, being that sam got two ultimatums in his life...from john and dean. anyhoo, i just wanted to add that i understand exactly where sam is coming from and why he doesn't trust benny...i've beaten that issue like a dead horse. imo that sam told dean to ditch benny to salvage his relationship with his brother. i really believe that sam feels responsible for his part in martin's death. and in all honesty, i really believe that the next time sam sees benny, he will kill him, regardless of any pleading from dean. benny killing martin solidified sam's belief that benny isn't the exception to the monster rule, and he is after all a monster and a killer. because sam knows he will kill benny, i think his ultimatum that dean ditch benny was his way of avoiding the issue for the time being.

now i know it seemed as though dean chose benny over sam, but i don't really think that's the case. i don't think dean chose benny just like i never thought sam chose ruby. sam needed ruby because he wanted to kill lilith. that was his end goal and he was so far gone that not even dean's ultimatum mattered.

with dean, i think it's all about responsibility. his responsibility to assure benny doesn't kill any innocents. like we agree, dean doesn't trust benny like he wants sam to believe he does...dean doth protest to much when it comes to benny. i feel that deep down dean knows that if benny falls off the wagon and kills, dean will be partially responsible as he is the one who brought benny out of purgatory and set him free into society. he walked out on sam not because of loyalty to benny, but because of his responsibility for benny...at least that's how i perceive it.

luckily for us, dean learned a valuable lesson from our friend kevin. when dean asked where kevin's mother was he told her he hid her somewhere. he couldn't be distracted from his work. he couldn't enjoy life until his job was done.
thank you kevin for setting dean's priorities straight.

dean does have a responsibility concerning benny i agree, but dean also has a responsibility to his brother, his friends(cas) and most importantly to people. saving people, hunting things, the family business...thes e are dean's words to sam in wendigo....the winchester's mission.
so dean had to choose, which responsibility was most important....ju dging from the phone call to benny, dean decided that it was family, angelfriend, people....seems vampire is last on the list.

at first when it ended, i thought dean was pissy at sam, like it was sam's fault dean made the decision he did, but after thinking about it, i just think dean was pissy about the whole situation..not specifically at sam. dean will have to worry now...in the back of his head he's going to always wonder...is this the day benny kills an innocent, because i really believe deep down dean's knows it's inevitable...de an said it in his speech to amy....you will kill, maybe not now, maybe in ten years, but you will kill again, it's in your nature. words to live by.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-22 03:46
Quote:

let me just say this. i think that dean is lying to himself about benny much the same way that sam is lying to himself in regards to "loving" amelia.

I don't believe sam loves amelia. i believe he loved the notion of living a normal life with someone. the fact that this girl is like dean in so many ways is a very big attraction for sam, if you ask me. but basically this relationship is based on desperation and lies. sam never told her the truth about who he was. like i said, sam was running...she was his escape...but you can't live in a fantasy world forever and i think he realized that, thus his decision to get back to his life...hunting.
Yes. That's what I think too. Disregarding the fact that the writers fail in addressing and showing us the scenes in which and how Sam's world imploded, (As I think just making Sam saying it without evidence of scenes in which he acted on it is a a major writing fail to me) Sam is at the lowest in his life. When Jess died he had Dean to hold on. When Dean went to Hell he, unfortunately, hold on to Ruby. The evil demon feed into Sam's heartache and desperation and suggested Vengeance into Sam's brain.

This time Sam meets Amelia who has similar trait to Dean and Sam is very grateful that she's at least human, not a monster. Sam has learned not to trust monster no matter what so any woman, no matter how crappy or bitchy, as long as she's human and wants to be with him, is accepted in Sam's book. Sam wants a friend to understand his suffering of loosing a loved one. It's difficult to open up to someone who don't know about that kind of pain. Amelia knows pain, so Sam finds it easier to identify himself with Amelia's pain.

Just like Dean finds brother in arms in Benny, Sam finds a sister in misery in Amelia. After all, we all know that misery loves company.

I agree with you about Sam loving the idea of living normal with Amelia. Not necessary with her. If Sam met a brunette kindergarten teacher who just lost their parents to an accidents and both or them share the pain and commiserate together, perhaps Sam too will "love" to live a normal life with him.

Quote:

dean, as you and i agree on, is lying to himself concerning benny. imo dean needs to believe benny is a real friend because otherwise, dean has to face the fact that he was used. he was taken advantage of when he was scared and alone...he'd have to admit vulnerability and dean just can't admit that about himself. for all the reasons you and i stated, dean doesn't trust benny as much as he claims he does. i still think all those digs at sam about benny never letting him down were more about dean trying to convince himself.

i don't know if you had noticed, but in sc when dean went into that rant and listed every mistake sam ever made as if dean was his parole officer, everything sam had done then, dean has done now. he mentioned the demon blood, yet dean let a vampire inside him, he mentioned souless sam not telling him for a year he was alive, dean was keeping benny from sam. it just seems that even though he was yelling at sam for all his mistakes, i feel as though he was also yelling at himself for his current ones. jmo of course.
Without adding anything and repeating what you said I agree. Dean is just afraid that he will be responsible for the death of the human's if Benny in the end drain them. That's why he can't let go of Benny. Not necessary because Dean loves Benny like a brother but because he's actually afraid if his decision in bringing Benny topside will not bite him in the ass.

Dean has a tight grip of his fear because he knows that all relationship that he has has gone to crap at some point. He just wan

I re-watched Epi 1 and it's clear in Dean's expression and his eyes that he is questioning his own decision.

Dean's afraid to question Benny's motive in helping him because then he will be faced with the possibility that his decision in bringing Benny along is wrong. He's afraid that the only relationship that he has that hasn't turn to crap is actually rotten.

Quote:

sorry, digressed a bit. what i wanted to say has to do with sam's ultimatum. which can i just say, i was real happy that sam got to finally make one of his own, being that sam got two ultimatums in his life...from john and dean. anyhoo, i just wanted to add that i understand exactly where sam is coming from and why he doesn't trust benny...i've beaten that issue like a dead horse. imo that sam told dean to ditch benny to salvage his relationship with his brother. i really believe that sam feels responsible for his part in martin's death. and in all honesty, i really believe that the next time sam sees benny, he will kill him, regardless of any pleading from dean. benny killing martin solidified sam's belief that benny isn't the exception to the monster rule, and he is after all a monster and a killer. because sam knows he will kill benny, i think his ultimatum that dean ditch benny was his way of avoiding the issue for the time being.

now i know it seemed as though dean chose benny over sam, but i don't really think that's the case. i don't think dean chose benny just like i never thought sam chose ruby. sam needed ruby because he wanted to kill lilith. that was his end goal and he was so far gone that not even dean's ultimatum mattered.

with dean, i think it's all about responsibility. his responsibility to assure benny doesn't kill any innocents. like we agree, dean doesn't trust benny like he wants sam to believe he does...dean doth protest to much when it comes to benny. i feel that deep down dean knows that if benny falls off the wagon and kills, dean will be partially responsible as he is the one who brought benny out of purgatory and set him free into society. he walked out on sam not because of loyalty to benny, but because of his responsibility for benny...at least that's how i perceive it.
I very understand where Sam coming from regarding Benny. I too despite knowing the extend of Dean's stunt in Purgatory with Benny, I don't fully trust him. Like the facts that I point out above, this particular Vamp has his own secrets that Dean presently ignores. How much longer do you think will Dean keep disregarding his fear of failing a responsibility and following his guts instinct in questioning Benny's motive?
Because Benny is Dean's responsibility. Benny is killing or not killing human, in original Dean's way of thinking, will be his fault because he is the one who brought Benny topside.

I hope now that Dean cut off contact with Benny and Sam is fully with Dean, that both of them have no distraction, they will be able to rehash this mystery around Benny in a clearer head.


Sam, I think is afraid that Benny will be Dean's Ruby. Sam's only questioning why Dean hide Benny from him. Why not coming forward and tell Sam from the beginning the nature of his escape? Sam sees this mirroring his own attitude when he too hid Ruby's involvement, and his own blood addiction from Dean. Sam sees Dean behaving just like him in S4 and he is very very afraid that history will repeat itself. If Benny is nothing to be worried over, nothing to be questioned, why does Dean hid him like a dirty secret unless there is something real bad concerning both of them.

Nappi, you believe that Sam feels responsible for his part in Martin's death. My take on this is ... I have yet seen the evidence of Sam's remorse. I still don't see him feeling bad about Martin's death, yet. Last episode, Sam still showing a righteous indignation over the matter.
But like you said, you made that statement based on your feeling, right?
I too hope that Sam does feel responsible for for bringing Martin into the fray that resulting in his death, because that will be the normal softhearted and kind Sam I know and love. I don't want a Sam who feels no remorse or sadness or not responsible at all except a righteous indignation regarding Martin's death. That'll be an OOC writing. I hope next when both boys is in a more calm atmosphere and not distracted anymore, they will stop behaving like OOC.

From what I see, Sam is not Sam if he's not with Dean. Dean is not Dean when he's not with Sam. Ben Edlund wanted to separate the boys, breaking up the duo, taking them off the crumpled Impala. The result is ... they're behaving unlike themselves. Dean turns into a coldhearted sonovabitch; Sam turns into a mess. Lesson learned; never separate the SamandDean.

I revisit The end. Dean said that they made each other human. I say that they complete each other. Without each other they are less than what they are. Without each other they are only half a soul.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-23 08:26
Well we know Dean doesnt feel bad about Martin's death despite his role in it (through the text and Benny) he made it clear he though Martin deserved it. Sam hasnt spoken about the whole Martin thing but that doesnt mean he didnt feel bad, to be fair he had a lot more going on.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-23 08:38
Would it not make equal sense that Niomi fed Benny the info to get Dean out and brought Don back in order to get Sam and Dean back on the chess board. She then used Cas as he was close to the Winchesters to keep an eye on them, no one or thing would have been able to get close.

How about Niomi and her angel buddies wanting the Winchester to close the hell gates in order to switch the balance of power in favour of the angels?

How about the angels wantuing to find the angel tablet and destroy smiply for the sake of self preservation? Them not wanting Crowley to know about the angel tablet so that he cant attempt to close heaven off and shift the balance of power in favour of hell?

Both sides have their own agenda most likely self preservation and to tip the balance of power in their favour.

I dont know if there is a higher power behind the angels, I dont think there needs to be one.

Where to Sam and Dean fit in? well they are the ones who can close the gates, I think we'll find out how they're personally connected to the mythology in episode 12 I belive. My guess is the Winchesters will end end holding the balance of power.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-21 06:30
Doesnt it make more sense given what we've seen that Amelia wasnt a set up by the angels but that Don's sudden reappearance was?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-20 00:06
Quote:
Another thing that bothered me, why was Crowley surprised there was an angel tablet? There’s a demon one, there’s a leviathan one, so why wouldn’t there be an angel one? Heck there’s probably a human one.
I'm not surprised that Crowley was surprised by the angel tablet. The demons and the monsters are what God has rejected since the beginning. God didn't create the demons, Lucifer did. God has given the demons no way to escape eternal torture. God and the angels call demons scum and they are universally evil. The Leviathan were so dangerous that God locked them away from everything. He left them alone and starving. Both are rejects from God, the world and anything decent. Why wouldn't God decide to finally lock both of them away forever.

Angels and humans are God's loved children. The angels live in heaven where for most of time there is no pain, no torture. The angels have the ability to live in the happy memories of the humans who reach heaven. They are deemed good. Some of them have met God and they consider themselves God's children. Not his favorite children, but still his children. Humans have free will. They can go to heaven. They were given God's highest blessing and God's elder children were told to bow down and serve them.

Demons are like abused children, tortured until they lose their humanity with no hope of being free of pain or fear. People who are described as being less begin to believe that, the demons probably do as well. I don't think demons can conceive that God would make a plan to imprison the children he loves. I think, if Crowley really is a demon, that it is an utter shock that God would do that to species that demons have always considered sacrosanct.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-20 01:45
Great review, Alice. I nearly always appreciate your balanced take on episodes.

Especially this:

Quote:
While Sam walks, Dean makes his choice and calls Benny. I find Dean’s decision huge, because theirs is a very unique bond that Sam could never understand. Benny may be a vampire, but he’s Dean’s brother in arms too. Two soldiers sharing something on the battlefield that no one but each other could possibly understand. That kind of loyalty means a ton to Dean.

It’s interesting how they both made the decision to carry on together separately, with each not knowing how the other would choose. Maybe they intuitively knew, but I don’t believe that. They both have changed so much in their year apart, they’re having too much trouble recognizing one another.
E
# E 2013-01-20 12:06
Hi Alice and Bamboo, it's interesting how people see things differently; but it's this line in Alice's review that I did not agree with so much. I DO believe that for Dean to give Benny his walking papers was difficult for both Benny and Dean and was painful as well. However, this part.... "..because their's is a very unique bond that Sam could never understand. Benny may be a vampire, but he's Dean's brother in arms too. Two soldiers sharing something on the battlefield that one one but the other could possibly understand," as being something beyond Sam's comprehension I don't agree with at all. Sam and Dean have been in the trenches with one another too, and for a lot longer than Dean and Benny. Sam has been fighting his 'inner monster' and has looked to Dean for help in that for YEARS. Sam wouldn't understand their bond? Sam is just about the only person on the planet uniquely experienced TO understand that bond, because his bond with Dean is similar. In fact, Benny and Sam are incredibly alike in many ways. So, although I agree that this was a big and painful decision for Dean, I don't think that Sam is incapable of understanding it.
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-01-20 13:56
I don't think I understand your point fully. Are you saying that Sam chooses not to view the friendship in these terms simply because Benny is a vampire?
E
# E 2013-01-20 19:30
Hi Ginger, no it was more of a disagreement with the quote itself, the idea that Sam hasn't the capacity for understanding Dean's relationship with Benny because it was formed in a warlike situation. I think Sam is uniquely able to understand this bond, perhaps more than anyone. If Dean had in anyway discussed the bond with Sam, I am sure he would have understood. But Dean's silence is what is keeping Sam from even wanting to understand IMO. Just because Sam DOESN'T currently understand, does not mean he can't or is incapable.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-20 14:37
Hi E,

I think Sam could understand the bond in theory, yes. But by virtue of the fact that he was never in Purgatory and didn't have the same experience Dean did, it would be hard for him to imagine what it took for his 'monsters-are-n ever-good-guys' brother to change so drastically that he would call a vampire "brother".

Dean's bond with Benny is very different from his bond with Sam, and was forged differently.

Dean's bond with Benny was forged in a highly-charged, high-combat, life or death situation.

Dean's bond with Sam was forged literally by fire - their mother's death. They are bound by family, love and blood and years of living out of each others pockets. But they have a lot of water under the bridge in their relationship. The years have made their relationship complicated.

Dean's relationship with Benny, like his overall experience with Purgatory, was pure. Simple. Uncomplicated.

Perhaps that is part of the reason why it was so easy for Dean to defend Benny, placing in him a level of trust that he seemed unable or unwilling to place in his own brother.

That rattles Sam. He can't understand it. He can't understand that bond.

That's my take on it, anyway.
E
# E 2013-01-20 19:42
Hi Bamboo, I understand your point of view here and you make some good points. I just don't agree :-) ... sorry. Sam, who spent 180 years in the inner circle of hell, could certainly understand purgatory, all Dean needs to to do is explain. Sam's relationship with Ruby was forged similarly although here on earth rather than in purgatory, but the basic need between them, and the reasons for the bond were similar. Sam seems to understand Dean's friendship with Cas just fine, another bond formed in a warlike situation. The situations surrounding a bond do not need to be the identical to be understood. I concede that Sam currently ISN'T understanding Dean's bond with Benny, but I don't agree that he CAN'T.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-20 20:18
I think for the most part we both think along the same lines but word it differently, because when I say Sam "can't" understand it, I mean it in the present, active sense. "Isn't" can be easily used in place of my "can't". :)
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-20 05:15
I´ll try to make it short.
This was the first Supernatural Episode, that ever ever made me bawl like a baby.
It tossed me from hope, to giggles, to bail biting, through heart wrenching pain... and back to tentative painful hope.

If ripping my heart out and putting it back in slightly wrong was the aim of this episode, well, it succeeded!

Before this episode I was indifferent to Naomi, curious, but indifferent. Now I hate her with a passion.
The scene of Castiel craddling Samandiriel´s body was beyond traumatic! And not just for him.

The whole episode dealt in parallels.
Dean/Sam - Cas/Samandiriel
One got his brother back, the other lost it for good.

Naomi-Crowley
Both evil, toturing SOBs

Kevin - Dean/Sam
You´re either in, or you´re out :/

Amelia - Benny
Who just can´t have the things, they would like to have and must find a way to build a life of their own.

If there is one metaphor here, it´s how Sam and Dean stood, with their backs turned to each other, their faces turned to Amelia/Benny.
They ditched both and are facing each other again.
Lets build it from here... and please slowly and painfully kill Naomi along the way.
Michele dashnjo
# Michele dashnjo 2013-01-20 17:18
This episode really got me too ... especially the scene with Samandriel getting killed. That was horrible and Cas seemed almost broken when Naomi was telling him what to tell the boys like he's realising he doesn't have control over his own actions anymore. I'm sure he's not to psyched about the gates of heaven being closed either but Naomi and her cohorts (I'm assuming since Samandriel said THEY are controlling us that she's not n it alone) just seem as evil as Crowley.

I was happy the boys are back on the same page as I knew would happen. After Sam finished putting up the sigils he was immediately trying to figure out what was going on with Cas and it wasn't until Dan reminded him about Amelia that he thought about her. I knew then that he was going to choose to stay and help Dan figure out what's up with Cas and try to get the tablets ... of course, that's how it was always going to end anyway.

Benny, he'll be back and I'm more ambivalent about that. I like him but am fine if he's not around too much either.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-20 13:39
i'm sorry but i'm not buying into the brother in arms crap that dean has been laying concerning benny. i don't think it's about that at all.

sorry benny fans but i still believe 100% that benny had or still maybe has an agenda. i think he most definitely is following orders. like it or not i don't see benny as any different than ruby. ruby made like she cared for sam, and maybe eventually in her own way she did, but in the end she had her own agenda, not unlike benny imo. benny went to dean in the first place, not out of the goodness of his cold vampire heart. he went to dean because dean was the way out of purgatory. benny fought by dean's side yes...he saved his life yes of course, why? because dean was benny's ticket out of purgatory that's why. if dean wasn't a loophole, benny would have drank him thru a straw, because how many vamps did dean put down? so if it's all the same and with all due respect, i'm not wearing rose colored glasses regarding benny. he is what he is and he's already killed a human. and to say it was self defense, hell that could be said of every monster who's ever killed a hunter...it's alway kill or be killed...that's hunting. so if martin deserves death, then dean deserves it too the next time he confronts a monster. same can be said of all hunters. so not buying self defense either. and honestly if benny is to be sympathized with, why is he still stealing human blood meant for transfusions? why when feeling the urge to drink someone is he hanging around parks? why doesn't he stay somewhere not so populated where the temptation is so great? why the hell isn't he drinking cattle blood instead of human? lenore and her nest did it..is there a shortage of cows? he should try texas...the state is covered in them.

it's my very strong belief that dean broke in purgatory. when cas disappeared, dean, like sam, was truly on his own. so where sam went and found solace in amelia, dean found solace in benny who was making nice to dean just when he was supposed to, when dean was most vulnerable, when he was scared and alone. it's my belief cas disappeared so that dean would be alone, and benny can move in.

dean didn't even question benny's friendship because being alone was worse. even when dean got out of purgatory, he still couldn't bring himself to ask questions....li ke why benny decided to become his friend or who told benny about the window out ? and deep down, i know dean knows something wasn't right, but he didnt' care. he couldn't let himself care.

why do you think he didn't tell sam about benny? because sam wouldn't understand? are u serious? what a cop out. sam is the only one on this planet who would understand, as he experienced something very similar with ruby. someone above said it too...sam is just as much a soldier as dean is...he's been in it since he was 6months old...so i'm not buying that sam would never understand excuse.

dean didn't tell sam about benny because he didn't want sam to meet benny. do you honestly believe that dean wants sam to know that he let a vampire inside his body so he can ride him out of purgatory? dean didn't text sam to protect him or benny, dean was protecting himself. he was trying to keep sam from confronting benny....dean knows sam wouldn't kill benny unless he had to. he also knows that sam is curious about benny, being that he has been keeping him a secret. dean wasn't worried about sam killing benny he was worried about sam questioning him.

if and when sam finds out how benny got out....ding ding ding...sam would be all over that...he would ask the questions dean didn't and then dean would have to face the answers. the answers he's been avoiding.

dean would eventually have to face the fact that he was being used much like ruby did with sam. in dean's mind, with sam, that's expected...but not from him....no dean is the rock...he knows best...he doesn't crack. dean facing the truth about benny would mean that he would have to face the truth about himself...that he is vulnerable, he does make mistakes, and he can crack. sam has admitted to weakness before, but dean hasn't ...i don't know if he can admit that he can be weak....it doesn't make him any less of a man or a hunter, but i'm not sure he understands that.

so dean made this major decision.he decided to do his job and that means he's all in...no distractions, which means no benny. but here lies the problem....dean knows that benny is weak. he knows that eventually benny will kill again, he is a vamp after all and that's what they do. unfortuately for dean he's going to have some responsibility in that because dean went against every instinct he's ever had concerning monsters and put his trust in one....pretty ironic too since dean is the one who gave amy the whole speech about you are what you are and you will kill again...he knows damn well the same goes for all monsters, including benny.

this is why i believe he was so cold to sam at the end. not because of anything sam did,but because the decision dean made to hunt means he has to be all in..he can't drop everything to go stop benny from killing someone every time they are on a case. he can get sam killed that way, he can get an innocent killed that way, he can get himself killed by being distracted all the time. he was pissy at sam because he knew sam was right what dean needs to remember is that sam made a sacrifice too. not amelia, normal and safe.

i feel for dean because now he has to live with crossed fingers. he'll always be waiting for the other shoe to drop. he has to hope benny isn't out there killing, because then that's something dean will have to live with. while right now he's a big post purgatory jerk who is very much like future dean from the end, who doesn't really care about much of anyone or anything, i don't think he'll stay that way. i believe the more time he's with sam and the more time he spends saving people the more he will start caring again, he will be more human like he was before purgatory took that away from him. then maybe i can have the dean i used to adore instead of the one i have know....who i still love but am having a very hard time liking.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 14:41
Was this all in response to my comment? If so, it seems a rather strong and defensive response. You certainly have a right to think Benny is up to no good. The show hasn't indicated that as yet. But we all speculate. That doesn't make it true. I wasn't trying to start an argument. I was just pointing out that many fan are skeptical about Benny. I don't think all Dean fans want him to be good anymore than all Sam fans want him to be evil. We will all base our opinions on what transpires.

I am sorry you don't like Dean but that is your choice. I am not sure why that and so much else was brought up in your comment. If you were replying to another comment, my apologies, it was posted so soon after mine that I might have jumped to conclusions!!
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-20 19:19
Quote:
Was this all in response to my comment? If so, it seems a rather strong and defensive response. You certainly have a right to think Benny is up to no good. The show hasn't indicated that as yet. But we all speculate. That doesn't make it true. I wasn't trying to start an argument. I was just pointing out that many fan are skeptical about Benny. I don't think all Dean fans want him to be good anymore than all Sam fans want him to be evil. We will all base our opinions on what transpires.

I am sorry you don't like Dean but that is your choice. I am not sure why that and so much else was brought up in your comment. If you were replying to another comment, my apologies, it was posted so soon after mine that I might have jumped to conclusions!!
sorry leah if you thought i was responding to you, but i wasn't. i never even saw your post. i wasn't responding to anyone. it's just that i can't talk about dean where i usually hang out because anything said against dean causes a big to do ...a sam vs dean ..thing and it gets all ugly. dean is placed on a pedestal on the site i frequent and if you mention any of dean's flaws they shoot you on site. dean isn't perfect and neither is sam but that's what makes him human.

i just felt here was a place i could vent out my frustrations without getting my head chopped off. really, it's just a ramble that i was thinking about and here was the safest place i thought i could post it. i never even read the comments above mine. i was simply venting. my apologies to anyone who thought i was posting a response to them, i really wasn't .

as for my feelings towards benny i just can't help it. i'm just not on the bandwagon that finds benny sympathetic. i see him, i see a con. i'm basing this on all that i've stated above. his first meeting with dean, where he was fighting along one guy, murders him and then tells dean he's his friend now...that is not a basis for trust to me. he admitted to cas that he lies, he doesn't get lied to. he had info on how to get out of purgatory and then all of a sudden he's dean's best bud. when he gets out of purgatory, benny's first call to dean was to help him kill a fellow vamp...now i'm not really sure that i buy he was the vamp who killed me and it's all over the love of my life stuff...it could've been for a whole other reason. benny told dean he drank black market blood, but then admitted to killing. and the whole citizen fang thing... i'm sorry but i don't believe that this girl was benny's great granddaughter. i think benny was in that town because he was after the vamp desmond who he found out had a nest there. i find it very interesting that no human was killed until benny found out from dean that he was being tailed. then two dropped bodies and he's right over the second one. i'm supposed to believe benny saying it was desmond. i didn't see desmond killing anyone in that ep either...so i guess it's just as valid for benny to have killed and tried to frame desmond...he leaves the girl alive to be a witness for dean...and then dean in turn says martin had it coming...well i don't think martin had it coming...i think martin was dead on about benny...but different eyes...differen t views. i'm not trying to turn people against benny, i just am trying to explain my reasons, which i believe to be valid, in believing that benny has his own agenda. why should i feel sympathy for benny anyway? he steals blood for people who need transfusions instead of drinking cattle blood. lenore and her nest did. they survived and they blended and they lived their lives. benny seems to enjoy hanging out at parks when he gets the sudden urge to feed. it's really hard for me to buy into benny and i'm afraid i never will....i hope you don't hold that against me...

hey look, i could be wrong...i don't think i am, but i could be and you will have every right to give me a big i told you so...but until proven wrong, i'm sticking with my gut...benny is bad news.

as for me not liking dean.... if you read my post, i also said i love him. it's possible to love someone and not like them at the moment. i haven't liked dean since he got back from purgatory. it's not only how he is with sam, it's how he is with everyone. he's just cold and mean and at times uncaring. i think a big part of that is due to purgatory, but i think another reason could be because he had an abomination inside his body and it had a negative effect on dean. that of course is a guess, but not out of the realm of possibility.

dean has been behaving much like future dean from the end. i didn't like that dean either.

it's my hope that now that benny is gone, dean can get back to doing what he does best....saving people. i feel by hunting and more importantly being with sam; and not just being angry with sam, but connecting with sam...working together, talking, getting comfortable with ea. other again, within a few eps, they will reach a point where they feel they can really talk to ea. other, deal with their issues and move on. now from spoilers, i know it's coming and it's coming very soon. i believe with all my heart that once that happens, dean will start to lose that hardness that's taken over him since his return from purgatory.. dean told sam once that they keep ea. other human, and i think that's what dean has been lacking for a long time. i'm ready for that human part of dean to come back. i miss that part of him, and i don't like who he's become without it.
i've been mad at dean for 10 eppys now and i'd like to stop now. it's tiring.

this is all jmo of course...by no means am i here to piss anyone off or influence anyone... just here to share...that's all
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 19:41
Hi nappi815- :-) Thanks, I just thought I set you off somehow?? I can undertand your mistrust of Benny believe me, there have been too many unanswered questions. I wouldn't be surprised at all!

Hey I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who is not thrilled with one character or another, the only time it bothers me is if someone is unfairly harsh and I don't see that at all with you. In fact I enjoy your comments. Dean is being pretty hard nosed. Sam stubborn. No communication.

Sorry again for the misunderstandin g.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-20 21:32
Quote:
Hi nappi815- :-) Thanks, I just thought I set you off somehow?? I can undertand your mistrust of Benny believe me, there have been too many unanswered questions. I wouldn't be surprised at all!

Hey I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who is not thrilled with one character or another, the only time it bothers me is if someone is unfairly harsh and I don't see that at all with you. In fact I enjoy your comments. Dean is being pretty hard nosed. Sam stubborn. No communication.

Sorry again for the misunderstanding.
no apologies necessary...i enjoy your comments as well. i rather enjoy most posts i read here. i feel like we can talk about everyone and we don't have to worry about causing an uprising. if we didn't love our boys so much and this show we wouldn't have the passion we have.

i reread what i wrote and while i wasn't angry when writing it, i can see where i may have sounded a bit harsh. that was not my intention at all. i don't hate benny, i just don't trust him and don't think he's a good guy. i see him i see a conman. i actually found blood brother quite uninteresting. i really have no interest in benny at all. not interested in amelia either. could've done without both of them in all honesty. but it is what it is...like they say at pre-k.. you get what you get and you don't get upset. lol.

i realized that i should've written on the bottom that it was all my opinion. i can see where one would read that and think i was stating fact so for that i apologize. you know on my other site, you can go back and edit your posts, here once you hit send, there's no turning back.

sometimes when i'm rattling on i forget to mind my words. usually i go back and reread a few times and edit...i don't think i reread what i wrote that carefully, cuz i didn't notice how hard it sounded until i saw your post.

all i can do is promise that before i hit that send button, i'll be more careful...to choose my words wisely and make sure the post doesn't have a harsh tone to it. it's hard when you text because people only see what you read but they can't hear how you're saying it.

i promise to be a good girl from now on....lol :D
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 22:23
Lol- Please don't worry about about your comments, they are off the cuff and fun. This was ALL on me. You are very much a good girl :-) :-)
roxi
# roxi 2013-01-22 21:00
I get you have issues with Dean, but can you honestly say Sam also, hasn't acted completely out of character? He didn't bother to look for Dean, acted pissy towards him ever since finding him alive, and the way he just let Martin knock Dean out, and leave him bleeding and handcuffed. Also, I disagree that Sam has no fault in what happened to Martin. He was the one who sicced a mentally unstable man on him in the first place. I believe, if Benny starts drinking people again, the responsibility will be on both Dean and Sam. And Sam also just let Kevin on his own to fend for himself. not to mention, willingly slept with a married woman. This is not the Sam I love.
Sam hasn't acted like he cares at all about Dean this season. So sorry , I respectfully disagree here. Both Sam and Dean have acted like jerks so far.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-23 08:02
Sam has acted more like a brother to Dean this season than Dean has to Sam. He helped Dean through his emotional crisis with Cas in the episode where Cas retuned. He saved Dean in Heartache, he told Dean outright that he wants out of hunting after their latest mission is over, he gave Dean the benefit of the doubt over Benny and didnt go after Benny untill Dean couldnt give him a decent reason not to.

Why wouldnt he have been pissy at Dean when Dean has been nothing but pissy at him? Constantly needling him, lying and hiding things, claiming saint Benny to be a better brother, blaming Sam for things that were out of his control and not forging him for anything over the years. Sam has had to defend himself from the get go and then had to live with Dean's self righteous attitude. I'm no suprised Sam didnt sit back and take it, who the hell would or should?

Martin was a big boy and did what a lot of hunters ahve done in the past, according to Jeremy Carver Martin was probably the sainest one out of the lot of them in the episode.

When Benny falls of the wagon it will be on Benny, he's been struggling since day one and it would be naive to think that he wouldnt have given in to his true monster nature with or without Dean's help. Neither Sam or Dean are responsible for anything that Benny does or has done as they arent responsible for what any other monster has done once they've given them a second chance. If they are then from now on every monster needs to be put down regardless of whether they kill or not.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-20 15:40
nappi, you are my hero today!

Love your train of thoughts, and I still have a little hope the story turns out like your vision (may be 3% hope), but I have doubts (like 97%) ;-(
Bevie
# Bevie 2013-01-20 16:30
Your very last sentence, if you switch the names Sam and Dean, is exactly how I feel about them at this moment.

Maybe I can have the Sam I used to adore instead of the one I have now...who I still love but am having a very hard time liking.

I think I preferred Soulless Sam to the one I have right now. His resentment of Dean is thoroughly depressing me right from the first episode this season. He gives the impression he would have been happier to never get his brother back. Just sayin'. :-*
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-20 22:54
Quote:
Your very last sentence, if you switch the names Sam and Dean, is exactly how I feel about them at this moment.

Maybe I can have the Sam I used to adore instead of the one I have now...who I still love but am having a very hard time liking.

I think I preferred Soulless Sam to the one I have right now. His resentment of Dean is thoroughly depressing me right from the first episode this season. He gives the impression he would have been happier to never get his brother back. Just sayin'. :-*
i think sam is very happy to have his brother back. what i do think though is his return came very shortly after sam left amelia. i think sam was a little preoccupied at the time. he seemed to have very little focus when dean first came back. he did ask dean questions about purgatory, but dean dropped the subject. when sam explained that he wasn't hunting...dean got pissed off and has pretty much remained that way. dean has been pretty standoffish with sam ever since.

i think there has been resentment on both sides. i think dean resents the fact that sam lived normal while he was in a warzone...which isn't really sam's fault. i also think he resents the idea of sam being happy doing something that doesn't involve hunting with dean. dean still has a hard time separating the job from brotherhood/fam ily.

dean kept telling sam he didn't mean it, when sam tried to tell dean that he didn't want to hunt after they closed the gates of hell. ..he kept telling sam that it's just the way he's feeling now, but that's not fair to sam...to discount his feelings as irregardless and fleeting. sam has a right to want something different...jus t because he doesn't want to hunt forever doesn't mean he doesn't love or need his brother.i don't think sam is resentful that dean is back and in his life. i think sam does resent that dean disregards sam's dreams for his own life.

i just think the biggest problem is that the boys aren't communicating with ea. other. they have spent this season talking at ea. other instead of talking to ea. other and i know they are hearing ea. other, but i'm not sure if they are listening to ea. other...

but all of this should be changing very soon... :-)
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-21 03:04
Quote:
Quote:
Your very last sentence, if you switch the names Sam and Dean, is exactly how I feel about them at this moment.

Maybe I can have the Sam I used to adore instead of the one I have now...who I still love but am having a very hard time liking.

I think I preferred Soulless Sam to the one I have right now. His resentment of Dean is thoroughly depressing me right from the first episode this season. He gives the impression he would have been happier to never get his brother back. Just sayin'. :-*
i think sam is very happy to have his brother back. what i do think though is his return came very shortly after sam left amelia. i think sam was a little preoccupied at the time. he seemed to have very little focus when dean first came back. he did ask dean questions about purgatory, but dean dropped the subject. when sam explained that he wasn't hunting...dean got pissed off and has pretty much remained that way. dean has been pretty standoffish with sam ever since.

i think there has been resentment on both sides. i think dean resents the fact that sam lived normal while he was in a warzone...which isn't really sam's fault. i also think he resents the idea of sam being happy doing something that doesn't involve hunting with dean. dean still has a hard time separating the job from brotherhood/family.
Hey nappi,
I love your thoughts, which pretty much mirror mine. Though I thoroughly like Benny, I can´t trust him. There´s too much secrecy there.
The way, he tried to get rid of Cas in Purgatory...
It looks to me like: Find Dean Winchester, gain his trust, keep him away from the angel, get him out.
This might really have been done by Benny from the goodness of his heart, but still he was playing into someone else´s agenda.
And with the level angel manipulation, we now know, is going on, it might just as well have been the angels planting the thought inside Cas head, he wanted to stay in Purgatory. It might just as well have been the angels, snatching Castiel in the beginning, to give him a good brainwash.
I mean, what kind of cloths was Castiel wearing in the "torture" scene with Naomi in Torn and Frayed? Hospital gown or holy tax accountant?
He was clean shaven, so it most likely wasn´t during his Purgatory time.


Dean´s resentment is very easy. The reason he got pissed, is plainly not Sam ditching Kevin or anything:
"Good. That's good. Now, we – we... always told each other not to look for each other. That's smart. Good for you. Of course, we always ignored that because of our deep, abiding love for each another, but not this time, right, Sammy?"
Dean felt abandoned by Sam. Just the usual.
He thought Sam didn´t love him anymore. Plain and simple.
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 08:20
Quote:
Your very last sentence, if you switch the names Sam and Dean, is exactly how I feel about them at this moment.

Maybe I can have the Sam I used to adore instead of the one I have now...who I still love but am having a very hard time liking.

I think I preferred Soulless Sam to the one I have right now. His resentment of Dean is thoroughly depressing me right from the first episode this season. He gives the impression he would have been happier to never get his brother back.
I understand this feeling, Bevie, and I share it. I hope we're not done with the brothers being honest with each other, this past episode was Dean and I hope Sam will be doing the same thing in an upcoming episode. That's the only way I see fixing this relationship.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 08:32
What hasn't Sam been honest about? He told Dean he didn't look for him. He told Dean he had been in a relationship. He told Dean he asked Martin to watch Benny. Sam has been completely honest this season, IMO.

So, what do you think Sam needs to be honest about? That is a genuine questions b/c I believe Sam has been pretty honest this year. I can't recall any secrets he's keeping.
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 09:35
Quote:
What hasn't Sam been honest about? He told Dean he didn't look for him. He told Dean he had been in a relationship. He told Dean he asked Martin to watch Benny. Sam has been completely honest this season, IMO.

So, what do you think Sam needs to be honest about? That is a genuine questions b/c I believe Sam has been pretty honest this year. I can't recall any secrets he's keeping.
Sam's attitude towards Benny for one. It can't be just because Benny is a monster because we've got canon from a previous episode this season that Sam was okay letting a monster go. I think there's resentment, guilt and jealousy on Sam's part.

I'll just copy and paste what I said in my post above, which you actually replied to:

"Also, I think this past episode tried to address Dean's thoughts about Amelia and Sam wanting to quit hunting, however, it didn't address Sam's feelings towards Benny, and I think that needs to be addressed, the real reasons. Because I don't think Sam just saying Benny is a vampire is the real reason Sam has hated Benny and wanted him dead. Even if you ignore Sam's attitude towards Lenore, you can just look at a few episodes back this season and how both brothers, including Sam, were okay letting a monster go (Kate, the werewolf in "Bitten"). They don't seem to be concerned about her killing, they've never followed up on her. I think there is some resentment, guilt and jealousy on the part of Sam that Sam needs to admit to."
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 10:12
Quote:
I think there is some resentment, guilt and jealousy on the part of Sam that Sam needs to admit to.
What if these are not his reasons.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 10:15
Well, what if it is just because Benny's a vampire? What then?

I don't know how you can claim Sam isn't being honest at this point. We may not believe it or like it, but Sam has in very vague terms stated his issue with Benny. Just because I think the writing is crappy and Carver doesn't actually understand Sam Winchester doesn't mean Sam's being dishonest.
Liz
# Liz 2013-01-21 10:30
Quote:
Well, what if it is just because Benny's a vampire?
Then that means Sam's okay to let a werewolf (Kate in Season 8's "Bitten") go, but not a vampire and that line he's drawing doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think Sam's being honest for a number of reasons, including basing it on some of Sam's reactions to lines or actions with regard to Benny.

But, clearly miles vary and I see fault, jealousy and resentment on both sides for the failings in the relationship, I don't blame just Dean, I see it in Sam. But, others seem to just see it in Dean and no fault in Sam. Okay, but I don't agree.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-21 11:03
Quote:
Quote:
Well, what if it is just because Benny's a vampire?
Then that means Sam's okay to let a werewolf (Kate in Season 8's "Bitten") go, but not a vampire and that line he's drawing doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think Sam's being honest for a number of reasons, including basing it on some of Sam's reactions to lines or actions with regard to Benny.

But, clearly miles vary and I see fault, jealousy and resentment on both sides for the failings in the relationship, I don't blame just Dean, I see it in Sam. But, others seem to just see it in Dean and no fault in Sam. Okay, but I don't agree.
Sam didnt let a werewolf go in Bitten, Sam and Dean let a werewolf go in Bitten and it was Sam and Dean that let Lenore go only after Dean witnessed for himself her resisting human blood .Sam has been perfectly honest about Benny right from the start he hasnt made any pretence over it and to be fair I think alot see it in both boys but like Dean girls reason his actions Sam girls try to do the same and its harder because we do not get the same pov and insight .

Benny is harder because people see him in scenes with Dean and relate to their relationship and the writing of Benny has been sympathetic but remember Sam doesnt see those moments anymore than Dean understood Sam and Ruby completely because he wasnt privy to everything. I feel Sam sees Benny closer to what happened with Ruby than what happened with Kate and Lenore mind you I am guessing here but looking behind the lack of insight that is something I can believe has alot to do with Sam here.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:21
Sam was totally on board with letting the werewolf in Bitten go--he jumped on the idea the moment Dean sounded it out with him. To try to say he didn't let her go is splitting hairs. Sam was always been all right with letting monsters who claim not to be dangerous to humans go, so his sudden fixation on Benny is a noticeable departure from his usual m.o. There has to be a reason for him to suddenly think that Benny should be dead then, because he's not giving him the same leeway he's willing to give other monsters.

With Ruby et al, Sam fully wanted Dean to trust just his word without proof of his own that they were good and should be let go. So in this way he's no different than Dean, it seems. There's no sign that he's equating Benny with Ruby at the moment in canon--he is equating her with Amy, and that's where the comparison falls short because Sam knew she had killed and was going to let her go.

I agree we are missing Sam insight here, but I think there is a definite possibility that Sam is not being honest, even if only with himself, about why he is holding Benny to different standards than he has other monsters.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-21 11:30
Emmau if you read my post properly I said SAM and Dean let the werewolf go it was both of them . At no time did I even remotely say it was just Dean in the same way that it was both boys who let Lenore go . This is the second time today you have jumped on one of my posts when all I did was put in a perfectly reasonable response to another post .

May I suggest you should stop replying to me then a problem will not occur.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 11:44
Fair enugh. I'm sorry, I also didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to comment on posts that were not directly addressed to me. I did not mean to offend you.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 12:19
Quote:
So in this way he's no different than Dean, it seems.
He is because ,he did not send Dean a text saying Lisa is in Danger so that he could be with Ruby.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:23
Why would he? Dean wasn't with Lisa at that time. AS far as we knew, Lisa didn't even have Dean's cell phone number at that point. There was no one to distract him with. So Sam just lied to his face and/or snuck out.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 12:46
Okay, Sam didn't send a text to Dean saying BOBBY or Ellen or Jo were in trouble and had to have Dean's help so he could be with Ruby. You DO agree that they was around and had Dean's phone number, don't you?

What Dean did was play with Sam's emotions to get him out of the way. The point being made was Sam did a lot of bad things during season four, but he didn't deliberately make Dean think someone Dean cared about was in danger to get him out of the way.

Oh and BTW, Dean was able to find Lisa in season five and she was living in a completely different house, so yeah, Dean had some way to contact her or he wouldn't have been able to do his goodbyes with her in PONR.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:53
Well, the text trick wouldn't have worked with Bobby, as he has so many multiple lines that it would have been logistically impossible for all his lines of communication to be blocked at once. As for Ellen and Jo, I'm not sure, but I doubt Dean would panic at a "I need help" text from any of them considering they were capable hunters who Dean believed could hold their own. I think he would have been concerned and tried to reach them, but I find it hard to believe he would have left Sam behind in a town to clean up a hunt with no word while he rushed to them.

I've never denied that Dean did a bad thing by send the text, however. I'm not going to get into comparing Dean's wrongs to Sam's wrongs and trying to qualify them as better or worse than the other. That seems like a matter of perspective and a clear path to Sam vs. Dean.

Dean is quite able to find someone using research if he has a mind to do so. It wouldn't be hard for him to track down her new address on the laptop. There is no sign in canon that he was keeping contact with her from S3 to S5, and no sign that Lisa had his number.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 13:37
And Sam was with Amelia?
roxi
# roxi 2013-01-22 21:40
No, he just willingly chose a demon over his own brother, and nearly killed him in the process. I love Sam but come on, he is not blameless.
And getting back to Benny, he was doing quite well controlling his urges, with Elizabeth as his source of strength. Martin coming after him was what really made him weak again.
So much is being made of this text. I agree it was a douchebag move on Dean's part but how does this excuse all the poor ways Sam has treated Dean so far?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 22:24
Quote:
how does this excuse all the poor ways Sam has treated Dean so far?
But it explains how the thoughtless dean is.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 12:41
Quote:
To try to say he didn't let her go is splitting hairs. Sam was always been all right with letting monsters who claim not to be
And Sam has never done it strictly on his own, except for Amy and when Dean decided Sam was wrong he KILLED Amy. He didn't watch Amy to see if Amy would keep her word, he decided that Amy had to die and Sam's judgement had to be overridden. Any other time monsters have been let go, it has been a mutual decision. You say Sam wanted to let Kate go, but his first reaction was to say to Dean that they probably should go after her and he didn't once argue against that. When Dean said give her a chance, Sam was relieved, but there was NO indication that if Dean had said hunt her down that Sam would have bucked that.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 12:47
Fair enough. I suppose my point remains that Sam is always willing to give monsters the benefit of the doubt, expect in this case. Why Sam was willing to let an unremorseful murderer go is beyond me, frankly, and I was fine with Dean killing her. Dean was definitely wrong to go behind Sam's back in order to kill her, and he should have and did face consequences with Sam for that.

As for Kate, Sam was quick to agree with Dean that she deserved a chance for me it's clear that he never wanted to hunt her down in the first place. His 'We should probably go after her' was half-hearted at best. We'll never know what would have been said if Dean had agreed with him that Kate should be hunted down. We can only guess what we think would have happened, and from there it's a matter of perspective.
E
# E 2013-01-22 18:36
I am not sure it's jealousy, but I think it does have something to do with his connection to Dean. Sam has always been an accepting sort... when it comes to monsters and people. He accepted Madison and wanted to give her a chance when Dean wanted to kill her, he's accepted Lenore when Dean's instinct was to kill her, he wanted to give Jack a chance in Metamorphosis as well as the much discussed Amy. Max in Nightmare was a human that Dean wanted to eliminate and Sam wanted to talk to. There have only been three instances that I can think of where Sam's instinct was to kill rather than to try and see what would happen or to show mercy first; one is Benny, another was Gordon and the third was Casey. In all these cases Sam was reacting to what he perceived was a threat to Dean. Sam feels (or felt) that Dean had come under the influence of a dangerous being and his reaction in all cases was to eliminate that threat quickly. In the past the writers have been able to show better how/why Sam felt that Dean's connection to these people was dangerous and to make it at least understandable as to why he reacted the way he did. With Benny? Not so much, at least not yet. One simple conversation with Cas could have given us insight into Sam's views on Benny without giving away any deeply concealed plot points (if there are any) and shown us that he fears for Dean, and perhaps thinks he is compromised by the vampire. So, I do think that Sam's current reaction to Benny does go against how we've seen him deal with monsters in the past, but it's been pretty consistent with how he deals with threats to Dean. OH, BTW, you can throw Alistair into this argument as well. Sam got rid of him pretty quick for messing with Dean.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-01-22 23:06
I really agree with your statement. Although it's true that Sam has been more lenient towards monsters in the past, it's the first time that Dean has gotten close to one. I'm sure that Sam was thinking about Ruby when he said "you know how these things turn out for us". He feels that Benny is a threat to Dean and that he has to take him out.

Let's think about it from Sam's perspective. The first time he hears anything about Benny, it's because Dean is in danger because of him. So, Sam gets another hunter to tail Benny, because Sam perceives him as a threat. Dean defends Benny but Sam probably thinks that Dean is too close to the situation to see it clearly, like he was with Ruby. And then there are 2 vampire kills and Dean is telling Sam that he's giving Benny a pass on trust alone. Benny has blood on his hands and apparently there is another vampire intent on having Benny blamed for the killings. That's pretty hard to believe for anyone. By then Sam is probably sure that Dean can't think clearly about this and is ignoring the evidence.

Fast forward 1 week, and Dean has sent the text to protect Benny (per Dean), so is it any wonder that Sam wants what he thinks is such a dangerous influence on Dean gone? I wonder what Dean would have done in the same situation. Is there any doubt Benny would be dead?
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 11:38
I see jealousy too, but I mostly plot point, bad writing to be honest. Carver doesn't understand Sam,and the writers don't give Sam a voice so his motivations and reasons aren't as clear.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-21 12:16
Quote:
Then that means Sam's okay to let a werewolf
the werewolf whose movie about her life Sam had the front row seat to.Quote:
I don't think Sam's being honest for a number of reasons,
Sam is being honest.He does not like Benny and he has said that.Quote:
But, others seem to just see it in Dean and no fault in Sam.
Oh no the only difference is in the extent of Sam's fault
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-21 13:40
All this talk of fault and blame keeps popping up in my inbox...is that what this show is?

Is that the lens through which people analyze these characters?

Who's more at fault for what, who hurt who more, who blamed who for what, who committed the worse sin, or which fan or vague fan group somewhere on the internet seems to be defending one character more than another?

My goodness!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 11:01
He's been honest about his attitude towards Benny. He doesn't trust him. Period. Sam hasn't pretended to be Benny's friend or that he isn't disturbed and worried about Dean defending Benny. You may think that there are reasons Sam doesn't trust Benny other than Benny is a vampire and trusting monsters hasn't worked out for the guys in the past, but there is nothing textual to refute that. Sam has been totally honest about how he feels about Benny. Dean just doesn't like it.

I'm really annoyed by the idea that if Dean says something he's being honest and true. If Sam says something he's not discussing the REAL reasons. Benny being a vampire and the guys having been burnt by trusting monsters before is a logical, valid and understandable. Trying to say that Sam is just a liar makes no sense to me.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-21 11:45
Quote:
I'm really annoyed by the idea that if Dean says something he's being honest and true. If Sam says something he's not discussing the REAL reasons. Benny being a vampire and the guys having been burnt by trusting monsters before is a logical, valid and understandable. Trying to say that Sam is just a liar makes no sense to me.
I am too, Percy! As you know, I actually agree with the jealousy theory but Sam is not a liar, IMO. He may have not said much, but he made it clear that he didn't trust Benny. Would I like Sam's opinion to be more fleshed out? Sure, but that's not likely to happen so I have to move on.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-21 12:50
Quote:
He's been honest about his attitude towards Benny. He doesn't trust him. Period. Sam hasn't pretended to be Benny's friend or that he isn't disturbed and worried about Dean defending Benny. You may think that there are reasons Sam doesn't trust Benny other than Benny is a vampire and trusting monsters hasn't worked out for the guys in the past, but there is nothing textual to refute that. Sam has been totally honest about how he feels about Benny. Dean just doesn't like it.

I'm really annoyed by the idea that if Dean says something he's being honest and true. If Sam says something he's not discussing the REAL reasons. Benny being a vampire and the guys having been burnt by trusting monsters before is a logical, valid and understandable. Trying to say that Sam is just a liar makes no sense to me.
Absolutely! IMO Sam has been completely honest about how he feels about Benny and may I add he has also told Dean that once the hell gates are closed he is out of hunting for good. It's just that Dean doesn't want to hear it.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-22 08:56
Pretty much in line with what Bob Singer/Jeremy Carver have been saying this season, that Sam is the one being honest with Dean where Dean has been lying and hiding things.

There was also the stuff about Dean being a hypocrite in the whole Benny situation.

I think Deas always pretty much heard what he wants to hear or perceived things how he wants to without giving a thought for the otherside of the story. Stanford being the standout example.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-20 16:40
The season is depressing and maybe some of the feeling towards Sam is justified considering the way he has been written. I do not feel his reaction to Dean's text however to be unfair or wrong and I was disappointed in Dean and hurt for Sam in that situation.

Neither do I feel resentment is solely a Sam's issue if resentment is how it is seen as demonstrated at what Dean said to Sam in Southern Comfort but again it depend's on how a individual views the story and the brothers this season.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-01-20 17:01
Quote:
I think fans in general have a healthy skepticism about Bennny. I am taking him at face value until it is shown that he is otherwise. I don't think Dean leaning fans are any more invested in him being " good" than others. Some fans want him to be "bad" just so Dean can be wrong. Right now he appears sympathetic so that is how I view him but I am up for and expect twists.

I agree that Dean is feeling bad about and responsible for Benny. For all his defensiveness I think Dean is very conflicted about Benny. I think the parting of the ways was both about getting the job done and Sam. More than a liitle.
Leah, "healthy skepticism" is a good way of putting it. A lot has been made of perception this season. I'm interested in how things progress with Dean's perception for the remainder of the season.

Dean's memory of leaving Castiel behind in purgatory was wrong; it was Castiel who pushed Dean away and chose to stay behind.

In Citizen Fang, Dean asking Sam "does that sound like the Benny you know?" was an odd question. Not sure why that was included, other than for the viewers to question Dean's memories/perception?

In Dean's FBs this season, Benny said a couple of things to Dean that IMO warrant our healthy skepticism. When Benny saved Dean from the vamp, he said "he was my friend, and now you are". Later in that conversation, he said, in effect, to not trust anyone. Then in A Little Slice of Kevin, he said "I lie. I don't get lied to".

All in all, happy with how the season is unfolding.
serita
# serita 2013-01-20 18:14
I did not care for the torture scenes, I think they went too far. But if I can overlook that (which is hard), I am ok with this episode. I do not think we have seen the end of Amelia...
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-01-20 19:28
Katmundu and opening scenes were the best part of the ep
isode except for scenes with Cas and Dean. Sam is being portrayed as such a douche and Dean looked at the end like he was pissed and fedup. It almost looks like he wished Sam had taken him up on going to Amelia the boring. The torture scenes were way over the top and I am surprised they got past quality control, someone said the headgear looked like a halo to me it looked more like a crown of thrones.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-21 11:24
Well I think Dean has been a self righteous (edited) all season but I guess it comes down to each fans perception of what they see on screen.

(Note from Alice - You know, you could have left the comment at Dean being self righteous. Whenever anyone throws insults like that at a character, my "Reported Comment" inbox lights up like a Christmas tree. So watch the insults).
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-22 08:49
confused-the post I responded to called Sam a douch but that was left unedited? Is it not an insult when its referring to Sam?
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-21 12:53
Quote:
Katmundu and opening scenes were the best part of the ep
isode except for scenes with Cas and Dean. Sam is being portrayed as such a douche and Dean looked at the end like he was pissed and fedup. It almost looks like he wished Sam had taken him up on going to Amelia the boring. The torture scenes were way over the top and I am surprised they got past quality control, someone said the headgear looked like a halo to me it looked more like a crown of thrones.
IMO at Sam. What else is new?
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-21 12:54
Quote:
Quote:
Katmundu and opening scenes were the best part of the ep
isode except for scenes with Cas and Dean. Sam is being portrayed as such a douche and Dean looked at the end like he was pissed and fedup. It almost looks like he wished Sam had taken him up on going to Amelia the boring. The torture scenes were way over the top and I am surprised they got past quality control, someone said the headgear looked like a halo to me it looked more like a crown of thrones.
IMO at Sam. What else is new?
Don't know what happend to the rest of my post. I said that IMO Dean has been a bigger douchebag this year. He's always pissed at Sam. What else is new?
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-20 22:01
i don't think sam is a douche at all. i have enjoyed sam for the most part this season, although i still would like to hear his pov..hopefully that will be coming soon. ;-)

like i said, different eyes...differen t views.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-21 08:57
Thank you
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-01-21 15:37
I thought "Katmandou" was a bad song choice for the Road So Far montage. Love the song & Bob Seger, just didn't see it as relevant for this show. :-*
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-21 22:50
this is so off topic...but i so would love to hear ac/dc shoot to thrill as an opening montage....ok we all can now return to topic at hand... :lol:
E
# E 2013-01-22 18:48
Hi Nappi815.... just a little tidbit I learned from Jim Michaels about some of the songs... they are incredibly expensive!!! AC/DC songs cost a premium! One Lead Zepplin song the show wanted to use was $100,000! Yikes. I guess 'Katmandu' came cheap!
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-01-24 00:20
i just thought because they used like 4 ac/dc songs that they were able to afford them...maybe the budget is less than it was before...bummer too...i think it's a fitting song for the show. like bob seger...not too keen with katmadu though....oh well...
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-01-24 02:52
I had been up for awhile reading posts on here about the episode and almost all of them seemed to be siding with and going along with the way Sam is being portrayed and Iwas tired and a little angry when I suggested that Sam was a Douche and that was over the top. However, it seems to me that all Dean does is apologize forever since this season started and does not get a pass on anything or what he has been thru. Then tonight they spoil a great episode by Dean once again being put in the wrong over the text. The text was not a great move but Sam has done some pretty ofc stuff this season but is not being called on it. I hope Carver cleans this up.
I enjoy this site but it is very very apparent that it is a Sam loving place and there is not alot of room for Dean Love IMO
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-24 03:38
Quote:
I had been up for awhile reading posts on here about the episode and almost all of them seemed to be siding with and going along with the way Sam is being portrayed and Iwas tired and a little angry when I suggested that Sam was a Douche and that was over the top. However, it seems to me that all Dean does is apologize forever since this season started and does not get a pass on anything or what he has been thru. Then tonight they spoil a great episode by Dean once again being put in the wrong over the text. The text was not a great move but Sam has done some pretty ofc stuff this season but is not being called on it. I hope Carver cleans this up.
I enjoy this site but it is very very apparent that it is a Sam loving place and there is not alot of room for Dean Love IMO
Oh, don´t let sweetondean hear this!

WHat sums up this season perfectly for me, is one sentence: "You didn´t ask me, to trust YOU. YOu asked me to trust BENNY!"
That´s all folks

And btw, how is Sam giving in to Dean´s desire to let lose and dress up and him going along with it... c´mon, how is that not just the cutest thing ever?
The boys playing together :D and Sam going along?
SAM?! Sam, the grumpy?
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2013-01-24 04:09
Quote:
I had been up for awhile reading posts on here about the episode and almost all of them seemed to be siding with and going along with the way Sam is being portrayed and Iwas tired and a little angry when I suggested that Sam was a Douche and that was over the top. However, it seems to me that all Dean does is apologize forever since this season started and does not get a pass on anything or what he has been thru. Then tonight they spoil a great episode by Dean once again being put in the wrong over the text. The text was not a great move but Sam has done some pretty ofc stuff this season but is not being called on it. I hope Carver cleans this up.
I enjoy this site but it is very very apparent that it is a Sam loving place and there is not alot of room for Dean Love IMO
Seriously? Do you read the reviews for the episodes on this site or did you look at the top 15 episodes by the admins over the hiatus? This site is very much a Dean site as well as a Sam site. In fact, it seems to be the only one which is why people come here to get away from all the Dean versus Sam crap.

I am a Sam girl and I stay away from places that talk trash about either brother and believe me when I tell you it's hard to find a place that doesn't talk trash about Sam. So I'm very grateful for this place. It's actually nice to have a place where you can say good things about Sam and not get smacked with hate. Conversly, it's nice to hear good things about Dean and know it's mostly from people who like Sam too.

Just because some people thought that Dean did something bad in this episode and have discussed it, doesn't mean this is a Dean-hating site. It's actually THE POINT of this site. So people can state an opinion and not get trampled.

I'm not trying to bash you, I'm just saying that when I read you comment about there not being room for Dean love, I almost spit out my coffee.
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-01-24 02:57
Earlier in another thread someone else had stated that this was a Sam site and I had replied it was to some extent but that I felt they treated Dean fairly . I don't think I believe that anymore altho I enjoy very much the analysis by the writers on here of the show and the episodes .
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-24 06:44
So because some thought Dean was wrong to send the text, this is no longer a site that treats Dean favorably in your opinion? Okay.

Are you looking for a place where Dean is never criticized? I can give you some suggestions for that.