Well, that was creepy. It’s been a while since a cold open has freaked me out as much as “#THINMAN” managed to. It was giving me flashbacks to the season one episode “Bloody Mary” which had me avoiding mirrors for longer than I’d like to admit. It almost doesn’t even matter that Thinman didn’t turn out to be anything Supernatural, people can be just as sick and twisted as any vengeful spirit. Especially on this show of ours.

Initially, I wasn’t sure what to think about our monster of the week. For a while I was worried that we had another “Hell House” on our hands. While that episode had some golden Ghostfacer moments and some hilarious pranks between Sam and Dean, it lacked any real closure. And to be honest, I was never totally on board with the whole tulpa thing anyway. So I was happy to have them rule that out fairly quickly. Once I knew we weren’t dealing with some manifestation of thought, I was more than intrigued by the Thinman. And for me, it really paid off. I’m usually fairly good at noticing when something is off about a supporting character. But in this case, I totally dismissed the deputy as a paper pusher. So I was shocked (pun intended) when he turned on Sam and Dean. Did that surprise anyone else or was I just slow on the uptake? Either way, I enjoyed that whole turn of events.

Any episode featuring Ed and Harry is going to be chock-full of hilarious one liners, and this episode was no different. A.J. Buckley and Travis Wester have a gift for improvisation and Jared and Jensen know exactly how to play off of that comedy. It just works well. So needless to say, I was expecting this episode to be funny. But what I didn’t expect was for it to be sad.

SPN 0974

The Ed and Harry split at the end of the episode was a bit clumsy in its transparency as a Sam and Dean parallel, but for me it still worked. Sure, I wish the writers hadn’t cherry-picked lines of dialogue straight from previous conversations between Sam and Dean. I mean, we’re a smart audience and Lord knows we analyze and over analyze every moment of every episode. I don’t know that anyone needed that parallel so clearly drawn. But I can get past that because I thought Harry and Ed’s disagreement worked. Because of the nature of their characters it would have been too easy to make their fight about something ridiculous. But Ed did some serious damage with his lies. Not only did he break up Harry and his fiance, but people are dead because of the Thinman. And Harry is personally responsible for one of those deaths which is something he’ll have to carry around with him forever.

For me, the Harry to Sam parallel works better than the Ed to Dean side of things. Decisions were made for Harry and Sam and lies were told. Because of these lies, people are dead and they feel personally responsible. Not to mention the betrayal and loss of trust. We know that Ed created Thinman so that he wouldn’t lose Harry as a Ghostfacer partner. Comparing that to Dean fearing the loss of his brother’s life seems a bit thin to me. Yes, both Dean and Ed were acting selfishly, but in my mind the stakes were much higher for Dean. I say this, not because I think the parallel needed to work perfectly, but because I don’t want the reasons behind Dean’s decisions this season to appear trivial in comparison. Ok, I’m done now. So what did you all think of this parallel? Were you satisfied with it?

SPN 0204

We had a couple of interesting Sam and Dean moments in this episode. There was a lot of Sam and Dean avoiding eye contact because of the way Ed and Harry’s story mirrored what they were going through. Harry’s explanation in the back of the Impala really seemed to hit home for them.

Dean:  Harry, you ok?
Harry: “Yeah. I mean, no. You live with a guy for so many years you start to think he’s always gonna be next to you. Like when you’re old, on the porch, he’ll be in that other rocking chair. But something happens and you realize that other chair is gone. Empty. You know what I mean?”

Ouch. How did such a simple visual tear the heart right out of me? It’s so clear from the look on Sam and Dean’s faces that they once pictured each other in that other rocking chair. I know Dean is still holding out hope and it seems like Sam might be coming around a little bit. Don’t you think? Don’t get me wrong, they are nowhere near back to normal but there was a glimmer of hope in this conversation.

SPN 0734

Dean: “You know what video would have gone viral if we still had it? When you were five and you got dressed up as Batman and jumped off the shed because you thought you could fly.”

Sam: “After you jumped first.”

Dean: “Hey, I was nine and I was dressed up as Superman. Everyone knows that Batman can’t fly.”

Sam: “I didn’t know that. I broke my arm.”

Dean: “I know you did. And I drove you to the ER on my handlebars...good times.”

Sam: “Yeah they were.”
SPN 0733

Were those smiles I saw? Sam practically had to force the smile off his own face at the end of that conversation. He had to remind himself that they aren’t supposed to be brothers anymore. Strictly business. But the fact that he forgot for a moment is a good sign that we may be close to the beginning of forgiveness. And it can’t come soon enough for me!

All in all I really enjoyed  “#THINMAN”, aside from my new irrational fear of selfies. Although I would be happy to have that fear spread a bit. For an episode that was packaged as a monster-of-the-week filler it certainly packed a punch. I only hope that Ed and Harry can find a way to forgive each other. I don’t know that I can live in a world where the Ghostfacers no longer exist. So what did you all think of the episode?

SPN 0165

Dean: “Lately with you up is down and down is sideways. I don’t know what you want.”

Harry: “The Winchesters. Yay.”
Ed: “Says nobody.”
Harry: “Ever.”

Harry: “Say hola to my little pistola.”
Dean: “Am I supposed to be impressed with that treasure trail or the lady gun you got hiding in your pants there?”

“The Skinny on Thinman.” I would read this book.

I laughed out loud when Dean compared Thinman to Garth.

Harry: “We’re so close to finding Thinman, Ed. I can smell him. I can smell his musk.”

Harry: “We can’t let those jockstraps steal our glory!”

Harry: “Quit raining on my rainbow.”
Ed: “Rainbows can’t happen without rain.”
Harry: “Don’t try to use science on me.”

Dean: “This all sounds like sad times at bitchmont high.”

Sam: “Trust me here, secrets ruin relationships.”

Harry: “I just got punched right in the feels.”

Sam: “Look, there are things you can forgive and there are things you can’t.” Ouch again.

Dean: “So you’re Thinman, huh? That would make sense if it didn’t look like you just ate a fat camp.”

Ed: “It’s Scooby Doo time, douchebag. Take off the mask.”

Ed trying to pronounce meme was hilarious.

It looks like we have another mini hiatus. I am looking very much forward to some Crowley time on March 18!

(Screencaps from www.homeofthenutty.com)

Comments  

cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-05 20:18
Thank you Sophia I had to watch this ep twice to really appreciate the dynamics between Sam and Dean. The parallel was obvious. Sam and Dean's reactions to what was happening with Ed and Harry is what I missed the first time because most of it was done with no dialogue. Sam clearly wants to be with Dean. He still doesn't want Dean doing dangerous things without him as backup. When Dean was about to be killed Sam was freaked. The end scene with Harry was especially poignant. I think that Sam and Dean always saw themselves as best friends forever. I think that Sam needs to ask himself is this the road he wants to be on and what does he really need from Dean. I think that Dean wants to make it right he just can't figure out what Sam wants. Just because we all know what we would want doesn't mean these guys have a clue. I will always love Jenny for writing that precious scene of Batman and Superman.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-05 20:18
Thank you Sophia I had to watch this ep twice to really appreciate the dynamics between Sam and Dean. The parallel was obvious. Sam and Dean's reactions to what was happening with Ed and Harry is what I missed the first time because most of it was done with no dialogue. Sam clearly wants to be with Dean. He still doesn't want Dean doing dangerous things without him as backup. When Dean was about to be killed Sam was freaked. The end scene with Harry was especially poignant. I think that Sam and Dean always saw themselves as best friends forever. I think that Sam needs to ask himself is this the road he wants to be on and what does he really need from Dean. I think that Dean wants to make it right he just can't figure out what Sam wants. Just because we all know what we would want doesn't mean these guys have a clue. I will always love Jenny for writing that precious scene of Batman and Superman.
Puck
# Puck 2014-03-05 21:12
No longer in 'wordy' mode. Yay.

Quote:
Well, that was creepy. It’s been a while since a cold open has freaked me out as much as “#THINMAN” managed to. It was giving me flashbacks to the season one episode “Bloody Mary” ... It almost doesn’t even matter that Thinman didn’t turn out to be anything Supernatural, people can be just as sick and twisted as any vengeful spirit. Especially on this show of ours.
I KNOW! I AGREE! And I agree with cheryl 42 as well. Dean hasn't figured out Sam's cryptic statements, but neither do I. If I were Sam though I'd just want to be treated like a grown man, not a surly teen or demon blood junkie, and an intelligent one at that.
Puck
# Puck 2014-03-05 21:12
No longer in 'wordy' mode. Yay.

Quote:
Well, that was creepy. It’s been a while since a cold open has freaked me out as much as “#THINMAN” managed to. It was giving me flashbacks to the season one episode “Bloody Mary” ... It almost doesn’t even matter that Thinman didn’t turn out to be anything Supernatural, people can be just as sick and twisted as any vengeful spirit. Especially on this show of ours.
I KNOW! I AGREE! And I agree with cheryl 42 as well. Dean hasn't figured out Sam's cryptic statements, but neither do I. If I were Sam though I'd just want to be treated like a grown man, not a surly teen or demon blood junkie, and an intelligent one at that.
amyh
# amyh 2014-03-05 21:46
I enjoye3d the episode more then i thought. Though there were inconsistancies that bugged.

1) Harry and Ed thining they would grow old in rockers together. Umm...if Harry was planning on getting married and worming for his father in law....wouldn't that be awkward?

2) The Sam/Dean memory. Why is Sam getting hurt and Dean to the rescue (big brother the hero)....Dean sees it as goood times? I mean Dean doesn't remember the fun they had as good times...but Sam getting hurt and Dean being a hero.

And when was Sam ever batman? I mean for nearly 9 years SHOW has parelled DEAN as Batman. Dean even called himself Batman in Bad Day at Black Rock. Besides, I simply can't fathom Dean ever wanting to be Superman. Batman has the cool gadets...the car... It makes no sense story wise.

Sam telling Harry “Look, there are things you can forgive and there are things you can’t.”

What people seem to skip is he also adds "You ave to figure out which it is." So Sam is obviously still struggling..../ he hasn't given up on Dean or their relationship.

One thing i felt about both sets of guys...that they have grown uop a great deal. I dont know but to me it just really seems organic that Ed and Harry would part ways. They were kids fulfiilling a fantasy ....or rather their own idealized version of a questby chasing ghosts. Harry simply grew up and realized he can't or doesn't want that way of life forever. And you know...they are in over their heads. Their child hood dream simply lasted longer then most peoples. Their friendship lasted longer...

Meanwhile Sam and Dean meanwhile.....a re pretty much lifers. THeir life isn't a fantasyand thats where Sam adn Deans roads part from Ed and Harry. Sam and Dean are true soldiers. They arn't on a quest but a lifelong job and their eyes are wide open. Although...mayb e Sam and Dean ARE on a quest....to reclaim their brotherhood and to understand one another and themselves.
amyh
# amyh 2014-03-05 21:46
I enjoye3d the episode more then i thought. Though there were inconsistancies that bugged.

1) Harry and Ed thining they would grow old in rockers together. Umm...if Harry was planning on getting married and worming for his father in law....wouldn't that be awkward?

2) The Sam/Dean memory. Why is Sam getting hurt and Dean to the rescue (big brother the hero)....Dean sees it as goood times? I mean Dean doesn't remember the fun they had as good times...but Sam getting hurt and Dean being a hero.

And when was Sam ever batman? I mean for nearly 9 years SHOW has parelled DEAN as Batman. Dean even called himself Batman in Bad Day at Black Rock. Besides, I simply can't fathom Dean ever wanting to be Superman. Batman has the cool gadets...the car... It makes no sense story wise.

Sam telling Harry “Look, there are things you can forgive and there are things you can’t.”

What people seem to skip is he also adds "You ave to figure out which it is." So Sam is obviously still struggling..../ he hasn't given up on Dean or their relationship.

One thing i felt about both sets of guys...that they have grown uop a great deal. I dont know but to me it just really seems organic that Ed and Harry would part ways. They were kids fulfiilling a fantasy ....or rather their own idealized version of a questby chasing ghosts. Harry simply grew up and realized he can't or doesn't want that way of life forever. And you know...they are in over their heads. Their child hood dream simply lasted longer then most peoples. Their friendship lasted longer...

Meanwhile Sam and Dean meanwhile.....a re pretty much lifers. THeir life isn't a fantasyand thats where Sam adn Deans roads part from Ed and Harry. Sam and Dean are true soldiers. They arn't on a quest but a lifelong job and their eyes are wide open. Although...mayb e Sam and Dean ARE on a quest....to reclaim their brotherhood and to understand one another and themselves.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 03:06
Amyh Superman could fly, they were jumping off a shed. Nine year old Dean wanted to fly. And of course five year old Sam wanted to be just like his big brother (and I guess he didn't know that Batman couldn't fly). Dean has always been Sam's hero even to Sam until now, that is why Dean is having a hard time processing what went wrong.
When you are 80 years old and your brother/best friend comes to visit there will always be a rocking chair on the porch for them.
Sam has so not given up on Dean. It shows every time he freaks when Dean is in trouble. Sam is struggling with this as much as Dean.
They seem to be on the verge of another heart to heart. At least I hope so. Maybe not a full resolution but movement toward each other.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 03:06
Amyh Superman could fly, they were jumping off a shed. Nine year old Dean wanted to fly. And of course five year old Sam wanted to be just like his big brother (and I guess he didn't know that Batman couldn't fly). Dean has always been Sam's hero even to Sam until now, that is why Dean is having a hard time processing what went wrong.
When you are 80 years old and your brother/best friend comes to visit there will always be a rocking chair on the porch for them.
Sam has so not given up on Dean. It shows every time he freaks when Dean is in trouble. Sam is struggling with this as much as Dean.
They seem to be on the verge of another heart to heart. At least I hope so. Maybe not a full resolution but movement toward each other.
novi
# novi 2014-03-06 03:18
Nothing better at the end of a working day than a well-written, well-balanced review, so thank you Sofia! Wish I could express my views this clear and articulate.
What amyh said about being on quest versus having fulltime job is so true. Now Charlie is having her adventure she was dreaming about, and I wonder what will be the end of her quest. I'd like to see one single character in the show who will be able to find friends and happiness, not to lose either.
novi
# novi 2014-03-06 03:18
Nothing better at the end of a working day than a well-written, well-balanced review, so thank you Sofia! Wish I could express my views this clear and articulate.
What amyh said about being on quest versus having fulltime job is so true. Now Charlie is having her adventure she was dreaming about, and I wonder what will be the end of her quest. I'd like to see one single character in the show who will be able to find friends and happiness, not to lose either.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2014-03-06 03:44
I think the parallel between Dean and Ed was meant to show what a really selfish action is (Ed´s) and an action that looks selfish but it can be interpreted as a desperate action to keep a family member alive at any cost...speciall y if you know all the things the brothers know. Sam even said it once, in Faith (voice message to his father).
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2014-03-06 03:44
I think the parallel between Dean and Ed was meant to show what a really selfish action is (Ed´s) and an action that looks selfish but it can be interpreted as a desperate action to keep a family member alive at any cost...speciall y if you know all the things the brothers know. Sam even said it once, in Faith (voice message to his father).
kaj
# kaj 2014-03-06 03:45
When Sam and Dean reminiscent about their childhood, it makes me think if they were staying at Bobby's or at Pastor Jim's because there's no way John will let them do any fun while he took them on a hunt.

I'm guessing it was Halloween and Bobby or Jim bought them the outfit. If they're staying at Jim's or Bobby's then I'm not surprised if one of them also bought Dean a bike. Or Bobby let Dean repair a used and broken bike at his junkyard before Dean can work on cars.
kaj
# kaj 2014-03-06 03:45
When Sam and Dean reminiscent about their childhood, it makes me think if they were staying at Bobby's or at Pastor Jim's because there's no way John will let them do any fun while he took them on a hunt.

I'm guessing it was Halloween and Bobby or Jim bought them the outfit. If they're staying at Jim's or Bobby's then I'm not surprised if one of them also bought Dean a bike. Or Bobby let Dean repair a used and broken bike at his junkyard before Dean can work on cars.
E
# E 2014-03-06 08:47
Nice review. You liked the episode a little better than I did and I guess I found the parallel between Harry and Ed a little hard to take, so the effect of any benefit that we could maybe draw between them was diminished by it's heavy handedness. You did make a few comments though that took issue with. They are:

" I know Dean is still holding out hope and it seems like Sam might be coming around a little bit. Don't you think?"

and…

"Were those smiles I saw? Sam practically had to force the smile off his own face at the end of that conversation. He had to remind himself that they aren’t supposed to be brothers anymore. Strictly business. But the fact that he forgot for a moment is a good sign that we may be close to the beginning of forgiveness."

This seems to be a commonly growing sentiment among fans that somehow its up to Sam to forgive Dean and allow them to move on or for Sam to reconcile what he's feeling and letting Dean know; in other words everyone seems to be expecting Sam to be the one to get things to move forward. But what about Dean? He gets to tell Sam that "up is down and down is sideways, I don't know what you want?" as some form of criticism and a passive aggressive push for him to just get over himself? Dean is the one in the wrong here. Why should it be up to Sam to do anything? It's The Mentalists all over again. Dean does something AWFUL, creating a tremendous breach of trust, then bitches at Sam for not getting over the hurt on DEAN'S timetable. How about an APOLOGY from Dean to get the ball rolling? Geez, Dean can say he doesn't know what Sam wants but, I am sorry, a five-year old could figure out what Sam wants; acknowledgement that Dean's METHODS HURT and an apology for that hurt. WE all know what Sam wants, so why can't Dean figure it out? It makes Dean look insensitive or stupid or both and indicates to Sam that he isn't worth an apology.

And who knows, maybe Dean DOESN'T think he needs to apologize; and not because he doesn't understand that Sam was hurt, but because Sam is his brother, family, and therefore beyond such common, everyday expectations? That somehow Sam should know that Dean is sorry without Dean having to say it? Yeah, well.. too bad. That's a cop-out and not good enough, not this time. This is becoming a trend IMO as of late. Dean doesn't apologize for going behind Sam's back to kill Amy, he doesn't apologize for sending that awful text message, and now he doesn't apologize for taking away Sam's rights as a human being. And just like in The Mentalists and SoCo he's beginning to complain because Sam is still mad past the time that Dean feels that he should be. If Dean REALLY doesn't understand what Sam wants or what he's feeling or why he's mad, then he should, as the person in this situation who's instigated all of the hurt, be the one to take the first step, and that can be done with a simple "I'm Sorry." I am not sure why it's so hard for him to say those two little words, but I find myself liking Dean less and less with every episode that goes by with him complaining about their relationship and doing nothing to help fix the situation that was CAUSED by him.
E
# E 2014-03-06 08:47
Nice review. You liked the episode a little better than I did and I guess I found the parallel between Harry and Ed a little hard to take, so the effect of any benefit that we could maybe draw between them was diminished by it's heavy handedness. You did make a few comments though that took issue with. They are:

" I know Dean is still holding out hope and it seems like Sam might be coming around a little bit. Don't you think?"

and…

"Were those smiles I saw? Sam practically had to force the smile off his own face at the end of that conversation. He had to remind himself that they aren’t supposed to be brothers anymore. Strictly business. But the fact that he forgot for a moment is a good sign that we may be close to the beginning of forgiveness."

This seems to be a commonly growing sentiment among fans that somehow its up to Sam to forgive Dean and allow them to move on or for Sam to reconcile what he's feeling and letting Dean know; in other words everyone seems to be expecting Sam to be the one to get things to move forward. But what about Dean? He gets to tell Sam that "up is down and down is sideways, I don't know what you want?" as some form of criticism and a passive aggressive push for him to just get over himself? Dean is the one in the wrong here. Why should it be up to Sam to do anything? It's The Mentalists all over again. Dean does something AWFUL, creating a tremendous breach of trust, then bitches at Sam for not getting over the hurt on DEAN'S timetable. How about an APOLOGY from Dean to get the ball rolling? Geez, Dean can say he doesn't know what Sam wants but, I am sorry, a five-year old could figure out what Sam wants; acknowledgement that Dean's METHODS HURT and an apology for that hurt. WE all know what Sam wants, so why can't Dean figure it out? It makes Dean look insensitive or stupid or both and indicates to Sam that he isn't worth an apology.

And who knows, maybe Dean DOESN'T think he needs to apologize; and not because he doesn't understand that Sam was hurt, but because Sam is his brother, family, and therefore beyond such common, everyday expectations? That somehow Sam should know that Dean is sorry without Dean having to say it? Yeah, well.. too bad. That's a cop-out and not good enough, not this time. This is becoming a trend IMO as of late. Dean doesn't apologize for going behind Sam's back to kill Amy, he doesn't apologize for sending that awful text message, and now he doesn't apologize for taking away Sam's rights as a human being. And just like in The Mentalists and SoCo he's beginning to complain because Sam is still mad past the time that Dean feels that he should be. If Dean REALLY doesn't understand what Sam wants or what he's feeling or why he's mad, then he should, as the person in this situation who's instigated all of the hurt, be the one to take the first step, and that can be done with a simple "I'm Sorry." I am not sure why it's so hard for him to say those two little words, but I find myself liking Dean less and less with every episode that goes by with him complaining about their relationship and doing nothing to help fix the situation that was CAUSED by him.
E
# E 2014-03-06 08:49
Quoting kaj:
When Sam and Dean reminiscent about their childhood, it makes me think if they were staying at Bobby's or at Pastor Jim's because there's no way John will let them do any fun while he took them on a hunt.

I'm guessing it was Halloween and Bobby or Jim bought them the outfit. If they're staying at Jim's or Bobby's then I'm not surprised if one of them also bought Dean a bike. Or Bobby let Dean repair a used and broken bike at his junkyard before Dean can work on cars.


I can see this scenario working… who's going to write the fanfic?
E
# E 2014-03-06 08:49
Quote:
When Sam and Dean reminiscent about their childhood, it makes me think if they were staying at Bobby's or at Pastor Jim's because there's no way John will let them do any fun while he took them on a hunt.

I'm guessing it was Halloween and Bobby or Jim bought them the outfit. If they're staying at Jim's or Bobby's then I'm not surprised if one of them also bought Dean a bike. Or Bobby let Dean repair a used and broken bike at his junkyard before Dean can work on cars.
I can see this scenario working… who's going to write the fanfic?
sofia
# sofia 2014-03-06 09:13
Quoting amyh:
I enjoye3d the episode more then i thought. Though there were inconsistancies that bugged.

1) Harry and Ed thining they would grow old in rockers together. Umm...if Harry was planning on getting married and worming for his father in law....wouldn't that be awkward?

2) The Sam/Dean memory. Why is Sam getting hurt and Dean to the rescue (big brother the hero)....Dean sees it as goood times? I mean Dean doesn't remember the fun they had as good times...but Sam getting hurt and Dean being a hero.

And when was Sam ever batman? I mean for nearly 9 years SHOW has parelled DEAN as Batman. Dean even called himself Batman in Bad Day at Black Rock. Besides, I simply can't fathom Dean ever wanting to be Superman. Batman has the cool gadets...the car... It makes no sense story wise.

Sam telling Harry “Look, there are things you can forgive and there are things you can’t.”

What people seem to skip is he also adds "You ave to figure out which it is." So Sam is obviously still struggling..../he hasn't given up on Dean or their relationship.

One thing i felt about both sets of guys...that they have grown uop a great deal. I dont know but to me it just really seems organic that Ed and Harry would part ways. They were kids fulfiilling a fantasy ....or rather their own idealized version of a questby chasing ghosts. Harry simply grew up and realized he can't or doesn't want that way of life forever. And you know...they are in over their heads. Their child hood dream simply lasted longer then most peoples. Their friendship lasted longer...

Meanwhile Sam and Dean meanwhile.....are pretty much lifers. THeir life isn't a fantasyand thats where Sam adn Deans roads part from Ed and Harry. Sam and Dean are true soldiers. They arn't on a quest but a lifelong job and their eyes are wide open. Although...maybe Sam and Dean ARE on a quest....to reclaim their brotherhood and to understand one another and themselves.

Quoting kaj:
When Sam and Dean reminiscent about their childhood, it makes me think if they were staying at Bobby's or at Pastor Jim's because there's no way John will let them do any fun while he took them on a hunt.

I'm guessing it was Halloween and Bobby or Jim bought them the outfit. If they're staying at Jim's or Bobby's then I'm not surprised if one of them also bought Dean a bike. Or Bobby let Dean repair a used and broken bike at his junkyard before Dean can work on cars.


Yes, I love this. I was imagining them at Bobby's as well.
sofia
# sofia 2014-03-06 09:13
Quote:
I enjoye3d the episode more then i thought. Though there were inconsistancies that bugged.

1) Harry and Ed thining they would grow old in rockers together. Umm...if Harry was planning on getting married and worming for his father in law....wouldn't that be awkward?

2) The Sam/Dean memory. Why is Sam getting hurt and Dean to the rescue (big brother the hero)....Dean sees it as goood times? I mean Dean doesn't remember the fun they had as good times...but Sam getting hurt and Dean being a hero.

And when was Sam ever batman? I mean for nearly 9 years SHOW has parelled DEAN as Batman. Dean even called himself Batman in Bad Day at Black Rock. Besides, I simply can't fathom Dean ever wanting to be Superman. Batman has the cool gadets...the car... It makes no sense story wise.

Sam telling Harry “Look, there are things you can forgive and there are things you can’t.”

What people seem to skip is he also adds "You ave to figure out which it is." So Sam is obviously still struggling..../he hasn't given up on Dean or their relationship.

One thing i felt about both sets of guys...that they have grown uop a great deal. I dont know but to me it just really seems organic that Ed and Harry would part ways. They were kids fulfiilling a fantasy ....or rather their own idealized version of a questby chasing ghosts. Harry simply grew up and realized he can't or doesn't want that way of life forever. And you know...they are in over their heads. Their child hood dream simply lasted longer then most peoples. Their friendship lasted longer...

Meanwhile Sam and Dean meanwhile.....are pretty much lifers. THeir life isn't a fantasyand thats where Sam adn Deans roads part from Ed and Harry. Sam and Dean are true soldiers. They arn't on a quest but a lifelong job and their eyes are wide open. Although...maybe Sam and Dean ARE on a quest....to reclaim their brotherhood and to understand one another and themselves.
Quote:
When Sam and Dean reminiscent about their childhood, it makes me think if they were staying at Bobby's or at Pastor Jim's because there's no way John will let them do any fun while he took them on a hunt.

I'm guessing it was Halloween and Bobby or Jim bought them the outfit. If they're staying at Jim's or Bobby's then I'm not surprised if one of them also bought Dean a bike. Or Bobby let Dean repair a used and broken bike at his junkyard before Dean can work on cars.
Yes, I love this. I was imagining them at Bobby's as well.
sofia
# sofia 2014-03-06 10:12
Quoting E:
Nice review. You liked the episode a little better than I did and I guess I found the parallel between Harry and Ed a little hard to take, so the effect of any benefit that we could maybe draw between them was diminished by it's heavy handedness. You did make a few comments though that took issue with. They are:

" I know Dean is still holding out hope and it seems like Sam might be coming around a little bit. Don't you think?"

and…

"Were those smiles I saw? Sam practically had to force the smile off his own face at the end of that conversation. He had to remind himself that they aren’t supposed to be brothers anymore. Strictly business. But the fact that he forgot for a moment is a good sign that we may be close to the beginning of forgiveness."

This seems to be a commonly growing sentiment among fans that somehow its up to Sam to forgive Dean and allow them to move on or for Sam to reconcile what he's feeling and letting Dean know; in other words everyone seems to be expecting Sam to be the one to get things to move forward. But what about Dean? He gets to tell Sam that "up is down and down is sideways, I don't know what you want?" as some form of criticism and a passive aggressive push for him to just get over himself? Dean is the one in the wrong here. Why should it be up to Sam to do anything? It's The Mentalists all over again. Dean does something AWFUL, creating a tremendous breach of trust, then bitches at Sam for not getting over the hurt on DEAN'S timetable. How about an APOLOGY from Dean to get the ball rolling? Geez, Dean can say he doesn't know what Sam wants but, I am sorry, a five-year old could figure out what Sam wants; acknowledgement that Dean's METHODS HURT and an apology for that hurt. WE all know what Sam wants, so why can't Dean figure it out? It makes Dean look insensitive or stupid or both and indicates to Sam that he isn't worth an apology.

And who knows, maybe Dean DOESN'T think he needs to apologize; and not because he doesn't understand that Sam was hurt, but because Sam is his brother, family, and therefore beyond such common, everyday expectations? That somehow Sam should know that Dean is sorry without Dean having to say it? Yeah, well.. too bad. That's a cop-out and not good enough, not this time. This is becoming a trend IMO as of late. Dean doesn't apologize for going behind Sam's back to kill Amy, he doesn't apologize for sending that awful text message, and now he doesn't apologize for taking away Sam's rights as a human being. And just like in The Mentalists and SoCo he's beginning to complain because Sam is still mad past the time that Dean feels that he should be. If Dean REALLY doesn't understand what Sam wants or what he's feeling or why he's mad, then he should, as the person in this situation who's instigated all of the hurt, be the one to take the first step, and that can be done with a simple "I'm Sorry." I am not sure why it's so hard for him to say those two little words, but I find myself liking Dean less and less with every episode that goes by with him complaining about their relationship and doing nothing to help fix the situation that was CAUSED by him.

I think there are plenty of people who agree with you on this. I personally see fault on both sides of this coin, but that's besides the point.

I will say to clarify my statements that I never meant to insinuate that this fight is Sam's fault and he must compromise his feelings in order to heal things with Dean. I think it's up to him to decide if this is something he can/wants to forgive. He said it himself in this episode. And while I think a simple "I'm sorry" from Dean would go a long way, I don't know that he's going to get that because Dean's not sorry for what he did. He does seem genuinely apologetic for how what he did impacted Sam and Kevin, but he isn't sorry that he made that call.

Let's not forget that Sam doesn't ever have to forgive Dean. It's totally up to him to decide that for himself. So in that sense, the ball is in his court. At least in my mind.
sofia
# sofia 2014-03-06 10:12
Quote:
Nice review. You liked the episode a little better than I did and I guess I found the parallel between Harry and Ed a little hard to take, so the effect of any benefit that we could maybe draw between them was diminished by it's heavy handedness. You did make a few comments though that took issue with. They are:

" I know Dean is still holding out hope and it seems like Sam might be coming around a little bit. Don't you think?"

and…

"Were those smiles I saw? Sam practically had to force the smile off his own face at the end of that conversation. He had to remind himself that they aren’t supposed to be brothers anymore. Strictly business. But the fact that he forgot for a moment is a good sign that we may be close to the beginning of forgiveness."

This seems to be a commonly growing sentiment among fans that somehow its up to Sam to forgive Dean and allow them to move on or for Sam to reconcile what he's feeling and letting Dean know; in other words everyone seems to be expecting Sam to be the one to get things to move forward. But what about Dean? He gets to tell Sam that "up is down and down is sideways, I don't know what you want?" as some form of criticism and a passive aggressive push for him to just get over himself? Dean is the one in the wrong here. Why should it be up to Sam to do anything? It's The Mentalists all over again. Dean does something AWFUL, creating a tremendous breach of trust, then bitches at Sam for not getting over the hurt on DEAN'S timetable. How about an APOLOGY from Dean to get the ball rolling? Geez, Dean can say he doesn't know what Sam wants but, I am sorry, a five-year old could figure out what Sam wants; acknowledgement that Dean's METHODS HURT and an apology for that hurt. WE all know what Sam wants, so why can't Dean figure it out? It makes Dean look insensitive or stupid or both and indicates to Sam that he isn't worth an apology.

And who knows, maybe Dean DOESN'T think he needs to apologize; and not because he doesn't understand that Sam was hurt, but because Sam is his brother, family, and therefore beyond such common, everyday expectations? That somehow Sam should know that Dean is sorry without Dean having to say it? Yeah, well.. too bad. That's a cop-out and not good enough, not this time. This is becoming a trend IMO as of late. Dean doesn't apologize for going behind Sam's back to kill Amy, he doesn't apologize for sending that awful text message, and now he doesn't apologize for taking away Sam's rights as a human being. And just like in The Mentalists and SoCo he's beginning to complain because Sam is still mad past the time that Dean feels that he should be. If Dean REALLY doesn't understand what Sam wants or what he's feeling or why he's mad, then he should, as the person in this situation who's instigated all of the hurt, be the one to take the first step, and that can be done with a simple "I'm Sorry." I am not sure why it's so hard for him to say those two little words, but I find myself liking Dean less and less with every episode that goes by with him complaining about their relationship and doing nothing to help fix the situation that was CAUSED by him.
I think there are plenty of people who agree with you on this. I personally see fault on both sides of this coin, but that's besides the point.

I will say to clarify my statements that I never meant to insinuate that this fight is Sam's fault and he must compromise his feelings in order to heal things with Dean. I think it's up to him to decide if this is something he can/wants to forgive. He said it himself in this episode. And while I think a simple "I'm sorry" from Dean would go a long way, I don't know that he's going to get that because Dean's not sorry for what he did. He does seem genuinely apologetic for how what he did impacted Sam and Kevin, but he isn't sorry that he made that call.

Let's not forget that Sam doesn't ever have to forgive Dean. It's totally up to him to decide that for himself. So in that sense, the ball is in his court. At least in my mind.
Lkeke35
# Lkeke35 2014-03-06 10:34
@8 E: I agree. Dean is being written a little dense here. I prefer to think he's lying about not knowing what Sam wants and is just being stubborn.

On the other hand, he thinks Sam is mad at him but Sam keeps hanging out with him on hunts. He doesn't seem to be angry with him or actively avoiding him, so while WE know what the problem, Dean is too close to it to see it. People do that all the time,where people outside the relationship can see exactly what's wrong but the people in it are confused. At least I hope that's the case.

But you are right,people don't rule their emotions on another persons timetable and I have noticed a disturbing trend in the fans of giving Dean a pass and expecting the onus to be on Sam to fix their relationship whenever it goes tipsy-turvy,as if it's his responsibility all the time. Dean has to play his part too and he doesn't look like he has a clue what to do.

I sincerely hope it's just him being stubborn or the MoC is clouding his emotions or something because otherwise this makes him look not too bright and I dislike Dumb!Dean immensely.

I've even seen posts stating that they don't understand what's taking Sam so long to forgive Dean and stop being mean to him. I'm baffled by this thinking.
Lkeke35
# Lkeke35 2014-03-06 10:34
@8 E: I agree. Dean is being written a little dense here. I prefer to think he's lying about not knowing what Sam wants and is just being stubborn.

On the other hand, he thinks Sam is mad at him but Sam keeps hanging out with him on hunts. He doesn't seem to be angry with him or actively avoiding him, so while WE know what the problem, Dean is too close to it to see it. People do that all the time,where people outside the relationship can see exactly what's wrong but the people in it are confused. At least I hope that's the case.

But you are right,people don't rule their emotions on another persons timetable and I have noticed a disturbing trend in the fans of giving Dean a pass and expecting the onus to be on Sam to fix their relationship whenever it goes tipsy-turvy,as if it's his responsibility all the time. Dean has to play his part too and he doesn't look like he has a clue what to do.

I sincerely hope it's just him being stubborn or the MoC is clouding his emotions or something because otherwise this makes him look not too bright and I dislike Dumb!Dean immensely.

I've even seen posts stating that they don't understand what's taking Sam so long to forgive Dean and stop being mean to him. I'm baffled by this thinking.
amyh
# amyh 2014-03-06 11:05
as the person in this situation who's instigated all
I will say to clarify my statements that I never meant to insinuate that this fight is Sam's fault and he must compromise his feelings in order to heal things with Dean. I think it's up to him to decide if this is something he can/wants to forgive. He said it himself in this episode. And while I think a simple "I'm sorry" from Dean would go a long way, I don't know that he's going to get that because Dean's not sorry for what he did. He does seem genuinely apologetic for how what he did impacted Sam and Kevin, but he isn't sorry that he made that call.

Let's not forget that Sam doesn't ever have to forgive Dean. It's totally up to him to decide that for himself. So in that sense, the ball is in his court. At least in my mind.

I geuss this is the problem I have with Dean. IF Dean feels genuine remorse for the pain that resulted from saving Sam. The gaslighting...t hat lead to Sam feeling as if was going insane and soemthing was seriously wrong with him and this was his 'normal'..(god, imagine knowing/thinkin g blakcouts and loss of time and general crazy is your normal) .if Dean can't find any empathy or remorse for Sam and tell him "I'm sorry' for THAT. Then honestly Dean doesn't deserve foregiveness.

I'd be fine if Sam forgave for himself. Its not healthy to carry that anger and hurt adn I hope Sam lets it go for himself. But if that was the reason Sam forgave Dean and not because Dean could find a scrape of empathy and remorse that his lies led to Sam feeling as if he was losing reality amdist blackouts and lost time and beleiving insanty was his status quo ....then their brotherhood isn't worth saving.
amyh
# amyh 2014-03-06 11:05
as the person in this situation who's instigated all
I will say to clarify my statements that I never meant to insinuate that this fight is Sam's fault and he must compromise his feelings in order to heal things with Dean. I think it's up to him to decide if this is something he can/wants to forgive. He said it himself in this episode. And while I think a simple "I'm sorry" from Dean would go a long way, I don't know that he's going to get that because Dean's not sorry for what he did. He does seem genuinely apologetic for how what he did impacted Sam and Kevin, but he isn't sorry that he made that call.

Let's not forget that Sam doesn't ever have to forgive Dean. It's totally up to him to decide that for himself. So in that sense, the ball is in his court. At least in my mind.

I geuss this is the problem I have with Dean. IF Dean feels genuine remorse for the pain that resulted from saving Sam. The gaslighting...t hat lead to Sam feeling as if was going insane and soemthing was seriously wrong with him and this was his 'normal'..(god, imagine knowing/thinkin g blakcouts and loss of time and general crazy is your normal) .if Dean can't find any empathy or remorse for Sam and tell him "I'm sorry' for THAT. Then honestly Dean doesn't deserve foregiveness.

I'd be fine if Sam forgave for himself. Its not healthy to carry that anger and hurt adn I hope Sam lets it go for himself. But if that was the reason Sam forgave Dean and not because Dean could find a scrape of empathy and remorse that his lies led to Sam feeling as if he was losing reality amdist blackouts and lost time and beleiving insanty was his status quo ....then their brotherhood isn't worth saving.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-06 11:11
Quoting E:
Dean doesn't apologize for going behind Sam's back to kill Amy, he doesn't apologize for sending that awful text message, and now he doesn't apologize for taking away Sam's rights as a human being.


Sam doesn't apologize for not having trusted Dean about Benny (even after Benny has saved his ass in Purgatory). Sam doesn't' apologize for not looking for his brother when he disappeared (even after finding out that he wasn't dead but in Purgatory. Even in "Sacrifice", Sam never said "I'm sorry").
So apparently both brothers have a hard time saying those two little words.

About Sam, maybe I'm stupid and insensitive as Dean (along with many others people, reading other forums), because I acclaimed Dean when he said that line, I really think the authors are not been so clear about what Sam wants and I understand perfectly the confusion of the older.

As usual, sorry for my english.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-06 11:11
Quote:
Dean doesn't apologize for going behind Sam's back to kill Amy, he doesn't apologize for sending that awful text message, and now he doesn't apologize for taking away Sam's rights as a human being.
Sam doesn't apologize for not having trusted Dean about Benny (even after Benny has saved his ass in Purgatory). Sam doesn't' apologize for not looking for his brother when he disappeared (even after finding out that he wasn't dead but in Purgatory. Even in "Sacrifice", Sam never said "I'm sorry").
So apparently both brothers have a hard time saying those two little words.

About Sam, maybe I'm stupid and insensitive as Dean (along with many others people, reading other forums), because I acclaimed Dean when he said that line, I really think the authors are not been so clear about what Sam wants and I understand perfectly the confusion of the older.

As usual, sorry for my english.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-06 11:19
Quoting E:
I am not sure why it's so hard for him to say those two little words, but I find myself liking Dean less and less with every episode that goes by with him complaining about their relationship and doing nothing to help fix the situation that was CAUSED by him.


It's a little bit hard take the first step and try to resolve the situation when Dean starts talking and Sam escapes to his room (last episode)
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-06 11:19
Quote:
I am not sure why it's so hard for him to say those two little words, but I find myself liking Dean less and less with every episode that goes by with him complaining about their relationship and doing nothing to help fix the situation that was CAUSED by him.
It's a little bit hard take the first step and try to resolve the situation when Dean starts talking and Sam escapes to his room (last episode)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 11:42
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cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 11:42
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Aro
# Aro 2014-03-06 12:08
#16 - cheryl42 I think if you go back and watch those episodes you will see that he didn't... In both cases Sam never said "I'm sorry".

8x23-Sacrifice
"SAM: What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again? I mean, who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another -- another vampire? Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just – "

for me is not "I'm sorry for not having looked for you"

8.19-Taxi Driver
Dean:I buried Benny... but I didn't burn his bones. After he said he'd try to get you out of there, it just didn't seem right. I know you got no use for him, but -
Sam: No, no, no. You know what? I get it. I do. He's a... He's a little different from what I thought. So, go ahead and leave the door open if you want.

Sam says he now understands but he doesn't say "I'm sorry for not trusting you and your judgment and ruined Benny's peace putting Crazy Martin on his heels"
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-06 12:08
#16 - cheryl42 I think if you go back and watch those episodes you will see that he didn't... In both cases Sam never said "I'm sorry".

8x23-Sacrifice
"SAM: What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again? I mean, who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another -- another vampire? Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just – "

for me is not "I'm sorry for not having looked for you"

8.19-Taxi Driver
Dean:I buried Benny... but I didn't burn his bones. After he said he'd try to get you out of there, it just didn't seem right. I know you got no use for him, but -
Sam: No, no, no. You know what? I get it. I do. He's a... He's a little different from what I thought. So, go ahead and leave the door open if you want.

Sam says he now understands but he doesn't say "I'm sorry for not trusting you and your judgment and ruined Benny's peace putting Crazy Martin on his heels"
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 12:10
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cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 12:10
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Aro
# Aro 2014-03-06 12:47
#18 Maybe you are right cheryl42, but if that is how the guys say I'm sorry, than it's false that Dean didn't apologize for sending that awful text message, he didn't say "I'm sorry" but HE SAID "I was wrong", that is pretty much the same.
And why Dean would have to apologize for Amy if the same Sam in "The mentalists" admitted that Dean was right about Amy?
Now I think that Dean is sorry for the pain he caused to Sam, certainly not for saving him, but I also think that he is confused about the real problem, because, like I said, Sam was not clear at all.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-06 12:47
#18 Maybe you are right cheryl42, but if that is how the guys say I'm sorry, than it's false that Dean didn't apologize for sending that awful text message, he didn't say "I'm sorry" but HE SAID "I was wrong", that is pretty much the same.
And why Dean would have to apologize for Amy if the same Sam in "The mentalists" admitted that Dean was right about Amy?
Now I think that Dean is sorry for the pain he caused to Sam, certainly not for saving him, but I also think that he is confused about the real problem, because, like I said, Sam was not clear at all.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 13:04
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cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 13:04
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nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-06 15:08
e i totally get where you are coming from. i think i agree.
first off, dean not knowing what sam wants? i'm not buying it at all. dean knew before he even let zeke inside sam how much sam was against it. he admitted that sam would never want it. he did it anyway , because he didnt' want sam to die. but don't think for one moment that he didn't know that tricking him into saying yes was going to upset his brother.
secondly, the lying. he knew lying to sam would bite him in the ass. he knew it because he wanted to tell sam right away. lying over and over. letting sam believe he was "all wrong". dean has lied to sam before and he knows sam's reactions to those lies. there is no way on chuck's green earth that i'm buying that dean doesn't know what sam is mad at or what he wants him to do. dean is not an idiot. i'd rather people paint him as stubborn rather than insensitive or stupid.
sam made it pretty clear that if dean wants to be partners, they'll be partners.
well, partners work together.
partners talk to ea. other.
partners have ea. other's back.
sam is doing everything one would do with/for his partner.
so the whole, comment about not knowing what sam wants...bogus in my opinion. sam may have told dean they would be partners, but that's only because when sam told dean that he couldn't trust him, all dean wanted to do to fix it, or not fix it, was just go back to work. get a few wins. give sammy time and he'll forget all of it. sorry dean, not this time. so in sam's anger he told dean, you want to be partners we'll be partners...so sam is just following dean's initial wish.
i'm one who thinks it's dean who needs to apologize. he needs to show sam that he cares about fixing what he's broken and he hasn't done that. he instead tries to pass the buck to sam. he's trying to turn the tables so that sam feels bad for what he's feeling and how he's dealing with it. instead of taking responsibility for his own actions, he's trying to make sam feel guilty. seriously? he's trying to lay it on sam? and apparently he's not the only one. boggles my mind to no end.
it might be in sam's corner to forgive but it is not up to sam to force an apology from his brother. where is the lesson in that? what will dean learn if sam gives him a play by play of everything he did wrong? sam's done that before and look where we are...it doesn't work. dean has to figure this out on his own. he cannot be spoon fed all the answers. that doesn't work on dean. it's just in one ear and out the other. dean has to work at fixing this relationship, which means he has to put in the effort of trying. and there hasn't been one moment since sam found out the truth that dean has tried to fix anything. what has dean done to indicate that he's trying? please just one thing dean has done to show sam that he's sorry or that he even wants to fix things..sam has shown dean. he's there by his side. he's working with him. he's softening up to open the lines of communication with dean...short of handing dean a grocery list of everything dean needs to apologize for, i don't know what more sam should do.
why is it up to sam to ask the question do we let things go until it's gone too far? why is the victim the one who is supposed to walk the high ground here? why cannot the one who did the hurting take the high ground as he/she rightly should since it was them who caused the pain. shouldn't dean be asking himself, how long am i going to ignore the pain i caused my brother? how long am i going to hold onto my stance that i did right even though i know i did wrong as well? how long am i going to hold out on taking responsibility for my actions in the hopes that sam just breaks down and forgives me....so that i never have to truly learn from my mistakes and i never have to do a single thing to change...
and the cycle never ends....
given what i know of sam and dean, most likely it will be sam who takes that higher ground. i don't think he's the one who should, but most likely, and yes an assumption on my part, he will be the one that will. if that's the case, it will just make me proud to be a sam girl(who's dean curious)...but i would love to be wrong here...i so want it to be dean. just...because..
i get that it's important for dean to be a hero, but a true hero accepts responsibility and tries to make right what he/she done wrong. if he truly wants to be sam's hero then dean will do that.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-06 15:08
e i totally get where you are coming from. i think i agree.
first off, dean not knowing what sam wants? i'm not buying it at all. dean knew before he even let zeke inside sam how much sam was against it. he admitted that sam would never want it. he did it anyway , because he didnt' want sam to die. but don't think for one moment that he didn't know that tricking him into saying yes was going to upset his brother.
secondly, the lying. he knew lying to sam would bite him in the ass. he knew it because he wanted to tell sam right away. lying over and over. letting sam believe he was "all wrong". dean has lied to sam before and he knows sam's reactions to those lies. there is no way on chuck's green earth that i'm buying that dean doesn't know what sam is mad at or what he wants him to do. dean is not an idiot. i'd rather people paint him as stubborn rather than insensitive or stupid.
sam made it pretty clear that if dean wants to be partners, they'll be partners.
well, partners work together.
partners talk to ea. other.
partners have ea. other's back.
sam is doing everything one would do with/for his partner.
so the whole, comment about not knowing what sam wants...bogus in my opinion. sam may have told dean they would be partners, but that's only because when sam told dean that he couldn't trust him, all dean wanted to do to fix it, or not fix it, was just go back to work. get a few wins. give sammy time and he'll forget all of it. sorry dean, not this time. so in sam's anger he told dean, you want to be partners we'll be partners...so sam is just following dean's initial wish.
i'm one who thinks it's dean who needs to apologize. he needs to show sam that he cares about fixing what he's broken and he hasn't done that. he instead tries to pass the buck to sam. he's trying to turn the tables so that sam feels bad for what he's feeling and how he's dealing with it. instead of taking responsibility for his own actions, he's trying to make sam feel guilty. seriously? he's trying to lay it on sam? and apparently he's not the only one. boggles my mind to no end.
it might be in sam's corner to forgive but it is not up to sam to force an apology from his brother. where is the lesson in that? what will dean learn if sam gives him a play by play of everything he did wrong? sam's done that before and look where we are...it doesn't work. dean has to figure this out on his own. he cannot be spoon fed all the answers. that doesn't work on dean. it's just in one ear and out the other. dean has to work at fixing this relationship, which means he has to put in the effort of trying. and there hasn't been one moment since sam found out the truth that dean has tried to fix anything. what has dean done to indicate that he's trying? please just one thing dean has done to show sam that he's sorry or that he even wants to fix things..sam has shown dean. he's there by his side. he's working with him. he's softening up to open the lines of communication with dean...short of handing dean a grocery list of everything dean needs to apologize for, i don't know what more sam should do.
why is it up to sam to ask the question do we let things go until it's gone too far? why is the victim the one who is supposed to walk the high ground here? why cannot the one who did the hurting take the high ground as he/she rightly should since it was them who caused the pain. shouldn't dean be asking himself, how long am i going to ignore the pain i caused my brother? how long am i going to hold onto my stance that i did right even though i know i did wrong as well? how long am i going to hold out on taking responsibility for my actions in the hopes that sam just breaks down and forgives me....so that i never have to truly learn from my mistakes and i never have to do a single thing to change...
and the cycle never ends....
given what i know of sam and dean, most likely it will be sam who takes that higher ground. i don't think he's the one who should, but most likely, and yes an assumption on my part, he will be the one that will. if that's the case, it will just make me proud to be a sam girl(who's dean curious)...but i would love to be wrong here...i so want it to be dean. just...because..
i get that it's important for dean to be a hero, but a true hero accepts responsibility and tries to make right what he/she done wrong. if he truly wants to be sam's hero then dean will do that.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-06 15:33
i really liked this eppy and i just hope that this ep has lifted the fog that has been blinding dean and he is finally able to resign himself to finally make his first attempt to try to fix things with sam.
for sam, i hope this eppy brings him to the point of a clearer understanding of what he doesn't want for him and dean...that he realizes he doesn't want that rocker on the porch to be vacant. that he will forgive. but what's important also is that they both come to accept ea. other views and make the necessary changes so that their relationship could evolve into a stronger one.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-06 15:33
i really liked this eppy and i just hope that this ep has lifted the fog that has been blinding dean and he is finally able to resign himself to finally make his first attempt to try to fix things with sam.
for sam, i hope this eppy brings him to the point of a clearer understanding of what he doesn't want for him and dean...that he realizes he doesn't want that rocker on the porch to be vacant. that he will forgive. but what's important also is that they both come to accept ea. other views and make the necessary changes so that their relationship could evolve into a stronger one.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 16:05
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cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 16:05
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Karin Shah
# Karin Shah 2014-03-06 16:06
I've been having trouble watching this part of the season because their fighting bothers me so much. For me, watching them work together to solve cases and the tightness of their relationship is the reason I watch the show. They are Sam and Dean pretty much one word to me. If the writers don't get them back on track soon, I don't know if I can continue watching.
Dean violated Sam's trust, but no matter what Sam thinks, he did it out of love. I hope half of what is coming out of Sam's mouth is just to hurt Dean and not intended to be the truth, because if it's supposed to be how he truly feels, then I don't think it's in character.
Anyone else think it's time the Winchesters stopped using supernatural short-cuts without reading the fine print?
Karin Shah
# Karin Shah 2014-03-06 16:06
I've been having trouble watching this part of the season because their fighting bothers me so much. For me, watching them work together to solve cases and the tightness of their relationship is the reason I watch the show. They are Sam and Dean pretty much one word to me. If the writers don't get them back on track soon, I don't know if I can continue watching.
Dean violated Sam's trust, but no matter what Sam thinks, he did it out of love. I hope half of what is coming out of Sam's mouth is just to hurt Dean and not intended to be the truth, because if it's supposed to be how he truly feels, then I don't think it's in character.
Anyone else think it's time the Winchesters stopped using supernatural short-cuts without reading the fine print?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-06 17:36
Quoting Aro:
Sam doesn't apologize for not having trusted Dean about Benny
Because It has not been shown that benny was telling the truth.Quote:
(even after Benny has saved his ass in Purgatory).
This does not prove that benny did not kill earlier episode.Quote:
Sam doesn't' apologize for not looking for his brother when he disappeared
Because he thought Dean was Dead and his world imploded.There is nothing to apologize.That was the only time when a brother came back without any appreciable consequence.Dea n should be thankful to Sam that any angel or Demon did not hold him for ransom .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-06 17:36
Quote:
Sam doesn't apologize for not having trusted Dean about Benny
Because It has not been shown that benny was telling the truth.Quote:
(even after Benny has saved his ass in Purgatory).
This does not prove that benny did not kill earlier episode.Quote:
Sam doesn't' apologize for not looking for his brother when he disappeared
Because he thought Dean was Dead and his world imploded.There is nothing to apologize.That was the only time when a brother came back without any appreciable consequence.Dea n should be thankful to Sam that any angel or Demon did not hold him for ransom .
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-06 17:37
Quoting cheryl42:
Nappi15 I know what you are saying but I think that Dean wants it to be better between them. He is giving Sam space and trying not to force the issue. But like I said Sam wants him to play a role that he doesn't know how to play. I am not saying that Sam needs to spell it out for Dean but he can't have it both ways either. He is never not going to be Dean's brother. Sam clearly cares about Dean far more than just a hunting partner. He is hurt, angry, beyond confused and he doesn't know where to go from here. I really don't think this is the relationship he wants to have with Dean either. And he is going to keep Dean at arms length (as long as he doesn't get too far out of his sight) until he can decide if he can trust Dean again. Unfortunately for both of them Dean has no clue at this point how to regain Sam's trust. And yes Dean is getting frustrated with Sam (not saying he is right just being written that way) but this episode I think pointed out to both brothers where they could end up if they stay on this road. Again there is a big difference between forgiveness and apologizing. And there can be no forgiveness if there isn't understanding how they got here from Dean. Dean is clearly sorry for everything that happened. He is just never going to be sorry that Sam is alive. That Is the sticking point for both of them. I am not saying that Sam has to make the first move. But he was the wronged person in this equation it is up to him, can he get past it or not. Dean can apologize until the cows come home but it won't mean squat if Sam can't forgive Dean. JMO of course.


cheryl, we won't know though until dean makes that apology. i don't think i'm getting what you are saying here...are you saying that sam needs to bend in order for dean to apologize, otherwise why should dean even bother if it won't do any good? imho, that's not how it works..one doesn't apologize only if it's accepted. one apologizes because they did wrong. they can only hope that they are forgiven. if forgiveness doesn't come easily, than that person, in this case dean, has to decide if they want to fight for their relationship by making things right again, to gain that trust back, or are they just going to give up. dean didn't give sam his forgiveness so easily back in s5 and he certainly didn't give sam his trust. sam had to fight for it. dean never told sam what to do either. he never told sam..look this is what you need to do for me so that i can trust you again...sam had to figure out what to do. sam could've given up on the relationship at that time, he almost did, but he didn't. it wasn't until sam showed faith in him in ponr that dean decided that he could put faith in his brother again. as for dean forgiving sam for ruby, well as of sacrifice, apparently dean still hasn't . he's still bringing it up and using it against sam. this all happened 5 years ago and dean still hasn't forgiven sam for it. apparently he hasn't forgiven him for being soulless either. he hasn't forgiven him for believing him dead and not rescuing him from purgatory. for me it feels like all dean does is hang on to his anger at sam.
i'm not going to play favorites here. i don't expect sam to have to be all forgiving for everything dean has done. i'll support whatever his feelings are in regards to that. if these boys are going to have a letting go party, then the letting go should apply to them both. i certainly don't believe that sam has to make what dean did easier on him just so that dean feels that an apology is worth his time. that's just batty to me.
look, the way i see it, my ghostfacer friends really opened the boys eyes and hearts. i hope that dean offers sam up that apology. i don't mean dean has to apologize for saving sam. he should own up to the trickery and deceit. that will open up a response from sam that will most likely have sam telling dean what it is he wants/needs from him. sam's pov, dean's pov, a common ground to be reached. i'm not saying one conversation will resolve everything...bu t it will lead to the resolution of these age old issues that they have.
but cheryl it has to start with dean. he has to apologize because he hurt his brother. because he lied to his brother. because he broke his trust. dean has to apologize regardless of whether he thinks sam will forgive him or not. like i said, you don't only apologize if you think it's worth it for you, you apologize because it's the right thing to do when you hurt someone, especially someone you love.

other than that, we're in total agreement :P :D
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-06 17:37
Quote:
Nappi15 I know what you are saying but I think that Dean wants it to be better between them. He is giving Sam space and trying not to force the issue. But like I said Sam wants him to play a role that he doesn't know how to play. I am not saying that Sam needs to spell it out for Dean but he can't have it both ways either. He is never not going to be Dean's brother. Sam clearly cares about Dean far more than just a hunting partner. He is hurt, angry, beyond confused and he doesn't know where to go from here. I really don't think this is the relationship he wants to have with Dean either. And he is going to keep Dean at arms length (as long as he doesn't get too far out of his sight) until he can decide if he can trust Dean again. Unfortunately for both of them Dean has no clue at this point how to regain Sam's trust. And yes Dean is getting frustrated with Sam (not saying he is right just being written that way) but this episode I think pointed out to both brothers where they could end up if they stay on this road. Again there is a big difference between forgiveness and apologizing. And there can be no forgiveness if there isn't understanding how they got here from Dean. Dean is clearly sorry for everything that happened. He is just never going to be sorry that Sam is alive. That Is the sticking point for both of them. I am not saying that Sam has to make the first move. But he was the wronged person in this equation it is up to him, can he get past it or not. Dean can apologize until the cows come home but it won't mean squat if Sam can't forgive Dean. JMO of course.
cheryl, we won't know though until dean makes that apology. i don't think i'm getting what you are saying here...are you saying that sam needs to bend in order for dean to apologize, otherwise why should dean even bother if it won't do any good? imho, that's not how it works..one doesn't apologize only if it's accepted. one apologizes because they did wrong. they can only hope that they are forgiven. if forgiveness doesn't come easily, than that person, in this case dean, has to decide if they want to fight for their relationship by making things right again, to gain that trust back, or are they just going to give up. dean didn't give sam his forgiveness so easily back in s5 and he certainly didn't give sam his trust. sam had to fight for it. dean never told sam what to do either. he never told sam..look this is what you need to do for me so that i can trust you again...sam had to figure out what to do. sam could've given up on the relationship at that time, he almost did, but he didn't. it wasn't until sam showed faith in him in ponr that dean decided that he could put faith in his brother again. as for dean forgiving sam for ruby, well as of sacrifice, apparently dean still hasn't . he's still bringing it up and using it against sam. this all happened 5 years ago and dean still hasn't forgiven sam for it. apparently he hasn't forgiven him for being soulless either. he hasn't forgiven him for believing him dead and not rescuing him from purgatory. for me it feels like all dean does is hang on to his anger at sam.
i'm not going to play favorites here. i don't expect sam to have to be all forgiving for everything dean has done. i'll support whatever his feelings are in regards to that. if these boys are going to have a letting go party, then the letting go should apply to them both. i certainly don't believe that sam has to make what dean did easier on him just so that dean feels that an apology is worth his time. that's just batty to me.
look, the way i see it, my ghostfacer friends really opened the boys eyes and hearts. i hope that dean offers sam up that apology. i don't mean dean has to apologize for saving sam. he should own up to the trickery and deceit. that will open up a response from sam that will most likely have sam telling dean what it is he wants/needs from him. sam's pov, dean's pov, a common ground to be reached. i'm not saying one conversation will resolve everything...bu t it will lead to the resolution of these age old issues that they have.
but cheryl it has to start with dean. he has to apologize because he hurt his brother. because he lied to his brother. because he broke his trust. dean has to apologize regardless of whether he thinks sam will forgive him or not. like i said, you don't only apologize if you think it's worth it for you, you apologize because it's the right thing to do when you hurt someone, especially someone you love.

other than that, we're in total agreement :P :D
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-06 17:39
Quoting Aro:

It's a little bit hard take the first step and try to resolve the situation when Dean starts talking and Sam escapes to his room (last episode)
There were other episodes where Dean had his chance and did not take it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-06 17:39
Quote:

It's a little bit hard take the first step and try to resolve the situation when Dean starts talking and Sam escapes to his room (last episode)
There were other episodes where Dean had his chance and did not take it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 18:12
delete
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 18:12
delete
E
# E 2014-03-06 21:58
Quoting cheryl42; "I know from personal experience with siblings that sometimes you have to decide what is most important to you. Does Sam want to be Dean's brother and accept him as he is?"

But why is it always up to Sam to accept his brother 'as he is?' That is such a huge cop-out and one that everyone expects Sam to do for Dean but that no one EVER talks about Dean doing for Sam. It's a huge double standard IMO. Any act of understanding that you expect from one brother should necessarily be expected of the other brother, but in this instance, and in many others (the Amy thing, the text message) Sam is expected to understand that Dean 'is who he is' and to move on tout-suite before Dean has to feel too much of that nagging, pesky guilt. Sam is not asking for the moon here, he's asking that Dean acknowledge that what Dean did HURT him, betrayed him, went against his moral code, caused him to doubt his sanity and his health. The funny part in all this is that Dean already KNOWS that his actions hurt Sam and that he'd feel betrayed! He said as much in the first episode when he was considering the possession in the first place. Dean knows exactly what he needs to apologize for, and its not saving Sam, it's the betrayal, the lies, the wresting control. I for the life of me, just can't figure out why Dean won't say, "I am sorry I hurt you Sammy, I am sorry that saving you got Kevin killed, what can I do?" The way I see it, Dean knows that his actions hurt his brother, emotionally as well as physically, and shattered his trust. All Dean needs to do is address these things that he knows, then from there they can begin to hash out what his wrong between them. But Dean needs to acknowledge the pain that he caused and apologize for it. As things stand now, Sam must be feeling that Dean doesn't think that Sam is even worth an apology because if he felt otherwise, he'd have done so already.
E
# E 2014-03-06 21:58
Quoting cheryl42; "I know from personal experience with siblings that sometimes you have to decide what is most important to you. Does Sam want to be Dean's brother and accept him as he is?"

But why is it always up to Sam to accept his brother 'as he is?' That is such a huge cop-out and one that everyone expects Sam to do for Dean but that no one EVER talks about Dean doing for Sam. It's a huge double standard IMO. Any act of understanding that you expect from one brother should necessarily be expected of the other brother, but in this instance, and in many others (the Amy thing, the text message) Sam is expected to understand that Dean 'is who he is' and to move on tout-suite before Dean has to feel too much of that nagging, pesky guilt. Sam is not asking for the moon here, he's asking that Dean acknowledge that what Dean did HURT him, betrayed him, went against his moral code, caused him to doubt his sanity and his health. The funny part in all this is that Dean already KNOWS that his actions hurt Sam and that he'd feel betrayed! He said as much in the first episode when he was considering the possession in the first place. Dean knows exactly what he needs to apologize for, and its not saving Sam, it's the betrayal, the lies, the wresting control. I for the life of me, just can't figure out why Dean won't say, "I am sorry I hurt you Sammy, I am sorry that saving you got Kevin killed, what can I do?" The way I see it, Dean knows that his actions hurt his brother, emotionally as well as physically, and shattered his trust. All Dean needs to do is address these things that he knows, then from there they can begin to hash out what his wrong between them. But Dean needs to acknowledge the pain that he caused and apologize for it. As things stand now, Sam must be feeling that Dean doesn't think that Sam is even worth an apology because if he felt otherwise, he'd have done so already.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 23:14
delete
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 23:14
delete
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 23:46
Quoting E:
Quoting cheryl42; "I know from personal experience with siblings that sometimes you have to decide what is most important to you. Does Sam want to be Dean's brother and accept him as he is?"

But why is it always up to Sam to accept his brother 'as he is?' That is such a huge cop-out and one that everyone expects Sam to do for Dean but that no one EVER talks about Dean doing for Sam. It's a huge double standard IMO. Any act of understanding that you expect from one brother should necessarily be expected of the other brother, but in this instance, and in many others (the Amy thing, the text message) Sam is expected to understand that Dean 'is who he is' and to move on tout-suite before Dean has to feel too much of that nagging, pesky guilt. Sam is not asking for the moon here, he's asking that Dean acknowledge that what Dean did HURT him, betrayed him, went against his moral code, caused him to doubt his sanity and his health. The funny part in all this is that Dean already KNOWS that his actions hurt Sam and that he'd feel betrayed! He said as much in the first episode when he was considering the possession in the first place. Dean knows exactly what he needs to apologize for, and its not saving Sam, it's the betrayal, the lies, the wresting control. I for the life of me, just can't figure out why Dean won't say, "I am sorry I hurt you Sammy, I am sorry that saving you got Kevin killed, what can I do?" The way I see it, Dean knows that his actions hurt his brother, emotionally as well as physically, and shattered his trust. All Dean needs to do is address these things that he knows, then from there they can begin to hash out what his wrong between them. But Dean needs to acknowledge the pain that he caused and apologize for it. As things stand now, Sam must be feeling that Dean doesn't think that Sam is even worth an apology because if he felt otherwise, he'd have done so already.


That's my big problem, the idea that Sam has to continue to make the first move. He agreed to work with Dean. He opened the discussion in Sharp Teeth. He continued the discussion in The Purge. He didn't walk away. Dean hasn't talked about Sam giving him the silent treatment the way Sam said Dean had been in Southern Comfort. He hasn't called Dean names, or insisted he apologize or say he was wrong the way Dean treated Sam in The Mentalists. He's been polite and civil. He has played well with others (Dean).

When Sam walked away at the end of Slash Fiction and had been gone for an entire week in The Mentalists, the cries of how badly he was treating Dean were all over the place. Now Dean walks away for several weeks, when they run into each other on a case Dean LIES about seeing Garth and tries to make Sam go away. Then Sam agrees that working together is a good idea. This week Dean suddenly plays dumb. You want to work with me? How am I supposed to know that? I never know what you want. The one thing Sam was clear on, was that he did want to work with Dean. He isn't ready to let things go and IMHO he shouldn't be until Dean is willing to admit that Dean did something wrong. But Dean playing I didn't know if you still wanted to work with me, is being very passive-aggress ive. (Yes I know Sam can be P/A as well, I'm talking about how Dean is behaving this time).
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 23:46
Quote:
Quoting cheryl42; "I know from personal experience with siblings that sometimes you have to decide what is most important to you. Does Sam want to be Dean's brother and accept him as he is?"

But why is it always up to Sam to accept his brother 'as he is?' That is such a huge cop-out and one that everyone expects Sam to do for Dean but that no one EVER talks about Dean doing for Sam. It's a huge double standard IMO. Any act of understanding that you expect from one brother should necessarily be expected of the other brother, but in this instance, and in many others (the Amy thing, the text message) Sam is expected to understand that Dean 'is who he is' and to move on tout-suite before Dean has to feel too much of that nagging, pesky guilt. Sam is not asking for the moon here, he's asking that Dean acknowledge that what Dean did HURT him, betrayed him, went against his moral code, caused him to doubt his sanity and his health. The funny part in all this is that Dean already KNOWS that his actions hurt Sam and that he'd feel betrayed! He said as much in the first episode when he was considering the possession in the first place. Dean knows exactly what he needs to apologize for, and its not saving Sam, it's the betrayal, the lies, the wresting control. I for the life of me, just can't figure out why Dean won't say, "I am sorry I hurt you Sammy, I am sorry that saving you got Kevin killed, what can I do?" The way I see it, Dean knows that his actions hurt his brother, emotionally as well as physically, and shattered his trust. All Dean needs to do is address these things that he knows, then from there they can begin to hash out what his wrong between them. But Dean needs to acknowledge the pain that he caused and apologize for it. As things stand now, Sam must be feeling that Dean doesn't think that Sam is even worth an apology because if he felt otherwise, he'd have done so already.
That's my big problem, the idea that Sam has to continue to make the first move. He agreed to work with Dean. He opened the discussion in Sharp Teeth. He continued the discussion in The Purge. He didn't walk away. Dean hasn't talked about Sam giving him the silent treatment the way Sam said Dean had been in Southern Comfort. He hasn't called Dean names, or insisted he apologize or say he was wrong the way Dean treated Sam in The Mentalists. He's been polite and civil. He has played well with others (Dean).

When Sam walked away at the end of Slash Fiction and had been gone for an entire week in The Mentalists, the cries of how badly he was treating Dean were all over the place. Now Dean walks away for several weeks, when they run into each other on a case Dean LIES about seeing Garth and tries to make Sam go away. Then Sam agrees that working together is a good idea. This week Dean suddenly plays dumb. You want to work with me? How am I supposed to know that? I never know what you want. The one thing Sam was clear on, was that he did want to work with Dean. He isn't ready to let things go and IMHO he shouldn't be until Dean is willing to admit that Dean did something wrong. But Dean playing I didn't know if you still wanted to work with me, is being very passive-aggress ive. (Yes I know Sam can be P/A as well, I'm talking about how Dean is behaving this time).
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 04:45
Quote:

Because It has not been shown that benny was telling the truth.
This does not prove that benny did not kill earlier episode.
I'm sorry but it is not true, what the show told us was that Benny did not kill anyone but Martin and only for self defense. Martin's death was Sam's fault 'cause Martin was sick and Sam sent him, but Sam never took the responsibility for it. If for Sam is not enough that benny died to save him, I do not know what else he could have done.

Quote:

Because he thought Dean was Dead and his world imploded.There is nothing to apologize.That was the only time when a brother came back without any appreciable consequence.Dea n should be thankful to Sam that any angel or Demon did not hold him for ransom .
Sam doesn't see Dean die, Sam see Dean disappear, Dean could be everywhere and yes, Sam has to look for him, not save him from Purgatory, just look for him. Try to understand where the brother is. Any of us would do that if if a loved one disappear! And yes, Sam would apologize for not having done.
Wow, the world really is upside down.
A brother disappears under mysterious circumstances and the other does nothing but he has not to apologize for it.
A brother is dying and the other saves him but he has to apologize.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 04:45
Quoting anonymousN:

Because It has not been shown that benny was telling the truth.
This does not prove that benny did not kill earlier episode.


I'm sorry but it is not true, what the show told us was that Benny did not kill anyone but Martin and only for self defense. Martin's death was Sam's fault 'cause Martin was sick and Sam sent him, but Sam never took the responsibility for it. If for Sam is not enough that benny died to save him, I do not know what else he could have done.

Quoting anonymousN:

Because he thought Dean was Dead and his world imploded.There is nothing to apologize.That was the only time when a brother came back without any appreciable consequence.Dea n should be thankful to Sam that any angel or Demon did not hold him for ransom .


Sam doesn't see Dean die, Sam see Dean disappear, Dean could be everywhere and yes, Sam has to look for him, not save him from Purgatory, just look for him. Try to understand where the brother is. Any of us would do that if if a loved one disappear! And yes, Sam would apologize for not having done.
Wow, the world really is upside down.
A brother disappears under mysterious circumstances and the other does nothing but he has not to apologize for it.
A brother is dying and the other saves him but he has to apologize.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 05:01
The previous episode ended with Sam that closes himself in his room without saying a word. For what we know, Sam could have not spoken to Dean since then. But of course at the beginning of this episode Dean should know that Sam wants to go with him for the job.
Sam's "we can be partners, not brothers" is the biggest stupid thing Sam ever said. Even Sam knows it. How could Dean take seriously that?
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 05:01
The previous episode ended with Sam that closes himself in his room without saying a word. For what we know, Sam could have not spoken to Dean since then. But of course at the beginning of this episode Dean should know that Sam wants to go with him for the job.
Sam's "we can be partners, not brothers" is the biggest stupid thing Sam ever said. Even Sam knows it. How could Dean take seriously that?
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-07 05:04
Quoting Aro:
Quote:

Because It has not been shown that benny was telling the truth.
This does not prove that benny did not kill earlier episode.


I'm sorry but it is not true, what the show told us was that Benny did not kill anyone but Martin and only for self defense. Martin's death was Sam's fault 'cause Martin was sick and Sam sent him, but Sam never took the responsibility for it. If for Sam is not enough that benny died to save him, I do not know what else he could have done.

Quote:

Because he thought Dean was Dead and his world imploded.There is nothing to apologize.That was the only time when a brother came back without any appreciable consequence.Dea n should be thankful to Sam that any angel or Demon did not hold him for ransom .
Sam doesn't see Dean die, Sam see Dean disappear, Dean could be everywhere and yes, Sam has to look for him, not save him from Purgatory, just look for him. Try to understand where the brother is. Any of us would do that if if a loved one disappear! And yes, Sam would apologize for not having done.
Wow, the world really is upside down.
A brother disappears under mysterious circumstances and the other does nothing but he has not to apologize for it.
A brother is dying and the other saves him but he has to apologize.
With respect they are two different situations and whether people liked it or not the shows argument was that Sam saw Dean basically blow up along with Dick and Castiel and believed that Dean died .

Sam did not violate Dean , he did not impose his will on Dean .The upsurping of someones autonomy and hijacking of their body to keep them alive is not the same as thinking someone had died . People bringing up Sam not looking does not negate the wrong in what Dean did even in the name of a idea of 'saving'.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-07 05:04
Quote:
Quoting anonymousN:

Because It has not been shown that benny was telling the truth.
This does not prove that benny did not kill earlier episode.


I'm sorry but it is not true, what the show told us was that Benny did not kill anyone but Martin and only for self defense. Martin's death was Sam's fault 'cause Martin was sick and Sam sent him, but Sam never took the responsibility for it. If for Sam is not enough that benny died to save him, I do not know what else he could have done.

Quoting anonymousN:

Because he thought Dean was Dead and his world imploded.There is nothing to apologize.That was the only time when a brother came back without any appreciable consequence.Dea n should be thankful to Sam that any angel or Demon did not hold him for ransom .


Sam doesn't see Dean die, Sam see Dean disappear, Dean could be everywhere and yes, Sam has to look for him, not save him from Purgatory, just look for him. Try to understand where the brother is. Any of us would do that if if a loved one disappear! And yes, Sam would apologize for not having done.
Wow, the world really is upside down.
A brother disappears under mysterious circumstances and the other does nothing but he has not to apologize for it.
A brother is dying and the other saves him but he has to apologize.
With respect they are two different situations and whether people liked it or not the shows argument was that Sam saw Dean basically blow up along with Dick and Castiel and believed that Dean died .

Sam did not violate Dean , he did not impose his will on Dean .The upsurping of someones autonomy and hijacking of their body to keep them alive is not the same as thinking someone had died . People bringing up Sam not looking does not negate the wrong in what Dean did even in the name of a idea of 'saving'.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-07 05:07
Quoting Aro:
The previous episode ended with Sam that closes himself in his room without saying a word. For what we know, Sam could have not spoken to Dean since then. But of course at the beginning of this episode Dean should know that Sam wants to go with him for the job.
Sam's "we can be partners, not brothers" is the biggest stupid thing Sam ever said. Even Sam knows it. How could Dean take seriously that?

Then it is long past time for Dean to take it seriously.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-07 05:07
Quote:
The previous episode ended with Sam that closes himself in his room without saying a word. For what we know, Sam could have not spoken to Dean since then. But of course at the beginning of this episode Dean should know that Sam wants to go with him for the job.
Sam's "we can be partners, not brothers" is the biggest stupid thing Sam ever said. Even Sam knows it. How could Dean take seriously that?
Then it is long past time for Dean to take it seriously.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 05:18
#34 No, Sam just left his brother to rot in purgatory, and only thanks to Benny, Dean didn't remain there for eternity.
In no way Sam could be sure that Dean was dead, he didn't see a dead body, he didn't see anything, only Dean and Cass disappear. Like I said, Dean could have been anywhere. Sam has chosen the easy way believing that he was dead and move on. Really someone Dean can trust.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 05:18
#34 No, Sam just left his brother to rot in purgatory, and only thanks to Benny, Dean didn't remain there for eternity.
In no way Sam could be sure that Dean was dead, he didn't see a dead body, he didn't see anything, only Dean and Cass disappear. Like I said, Dean could have been anywhere. Sam has chosen the easy way believing that he was dead and move on. Really someone Dean can trust.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-03-07 05:51
Quoting Aro:
#34 No, Sam just left his brother to rot in purgatory, and only thanks to Benny, Dean didn't remain there for eternity.
In no way Sam could be sure that Dean was dead, he didn't see a dead body, he didn't see anything, only Dean and Cass disappear. Like I said, Dean could have been anywhere. Sam has chosen the easy way believing that he was dead and move on. Really someone Dean can trust.


I truly believe that after everything Sam had been through, including 100+ years in Hell being tortured by Lucifer, he simply couldn't cope with the situation when Dean disappeared. Which of us could have managed 5% of what the Winchesters have dealt with?
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-03-07 05:51
Quote:
#34 No, Sam just left his brother to rot in purgatory, and only thanks to Benny, Dean didn't remain there for eternity.
In no way Sam could be sure that Dean was dead, he didn't see a dead body, he didn't see anything, only Dean and Cass disappear. Like I said, Dean could have been anywhere. Sam has chosen the easy way believing that he was dead and move on. Really someone Dean can trust.
I truly believe that after everything Sam had been through, including 100+ years in Hell being tortured by Lucifer, he simply couldn't cope with the situation when Dean disappeared. Which of us could have managed 5% of what the Winchesters have dealt with?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 06:04
Quoting Aro:


I'm sorry but it is not true, what the show told us was that Benny did not kill anyone but Martin and only for self defense. Martin's death was Sam's fault 'cause Martin was sick and Sam sent him, but Sam never took the responsibility for it. If for Sam is not enough that benny died to save him, I do not know what else he could have done.

Sam doesn't see Dean die, Sam see Dean disappear, Dean could be everywhere and yes, Sam has to look for him, not save him from Purgatory, just look for him. Try to understand where the brother is. Any of us would do that if if a loved one disappear! And yes, Sam would apologize for not having done.
Wow, the world really is upside down.
A brother disappears under mysterious circumstances and the other does nothing but he has not to apologize for it.
A brother is dying and the other saves him but he has to apologize.

The show did not tell us Benny told us.There is a difference between show telling us and Benny telling us that.If the show had showed us otherwise i would have agreed with you and if they show us in the future that Benny indeed did not kill anyone then I have no problem with believing that,But as of now it is not confirmed either way.
Sam sees a explosion and when you are in the epicenter of an explosion in a closed room you die.After you see the brother die your world implodes and you go into a depression which you come out of after you meet a dog.Sam saw explosion and not disappearance, which is canon.
A man sees his brother die and does not make a deal or violates anyone to have his brother back and he is expected to apologize.
A brother is violated by deception and a friend dies because of this and the possessed brother should just roll over,The world indeed has gone topsy turvy.
Quote:
The previous episode ended with Sam that closes himself in his room without saying a word. For what we know, Sam could have not spoken to Dean since then. But of course at the beginning of this episode Dean should know that Sam wants to go with him for the job. Sam's "we can be partners, not brothers" is the biggest stupid thing Sam ever said. Even Sam knows it. How could Dean take seriously that?
Because in the earlier episode dean the brother he did not want to talk to.If Dean the hunter wants to talk well that is okay .Sam has said this as clearly as he can.
As another poster said I hope they are showing Dean is stubborn and not that he is dumb.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 06:04
Quote:


I'm sorry but it is not true, what the show told us was that Benny did not kill anyone but Martin and only for self defense. Martin's death was Sam's fault 'cause Martin was sick and Sam sent him, but Sam never took the responsibility for it. If for Sam is not enough that benny died to save him, I do not know what else he could have done.

Sam doesn't see Dean die, Sam see Dean disappear, Dean could be everywhere and yes, Sam has to look for him, not save him from Purgatory, just look for him. Try to understand where the brother is. Any of us would do that if if a loved one disappear! And yes, Sam would apologize for not having done.
Wow, the world really is upside down.
A brother disappears under mysterious circumstances and the other does nothing but he has not to apologize for it.
A brother is dying and the other saves him but he has to apologize.
The show did not tell us Benny told us.There is a difference between show telling us and Benny telling us that.If the show had showed us otherwise i would have agreed with you and if they show us in the future that Benny indeed did not kill anyone then I have no problem with believing that,But as of now it is not confirmed either way.
Sam sees a explosion and when you are in the epicenter of an explosion in a closed room you die.After you see the brother die your world implodes and you go into a depression which you come out of after you meet a dog.Sam saw explosion and not disappearance, which is canon.
A man sees his brother die and does not make a deal or violates anyone to have his brother back and he is expected to apologize.
A brother is violated by deception and a friend dies because of this and the possessed brother should just roll over,The world indeed has gone topsy turvy.
Quote:
The previous episode ended with Sam that closes himself in his room without saying a word. For what we know, Sam could have not spoken to Dean since then. But of course at the beginning of this episode Dean should know that Sam wants to go with him for the job. Sam's "we can be partners, not brothers" is the biggest stupid thing Sam ever said. Even Sam knows it. How could Dean take seriously that?
Because in the earlier episode dean the brother he did not want to talk to.If Dean the hunter wants to talk well that is okay .Sam has said this as clearly as he can.
As another poster said I hope they are showing Dean is stubborn and not that he is dumb.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-07 06:46
Quoting Aro:
#34 No, Sam just left his brother to rot in purgatory, and only thanks to Benny, Dean didn't remain there for eternity.
In no way Sam could be sure that Dean was dead, he didn't see a dead body, he didn't see anything, only Dean and Cass disappear. Like I said, Dean could have been anywhere. Sam has chosen the easy way believing that he was dead and move on. Really someone Dean can trust.

No it was not a easy choice neither was it the easy way out . Sam is many things but he is not a coward.

Edited by Alice - putting words in another poster's mouth. That's a violating a clearly written rule.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-07 06:46
Quote:
#34 No, Sam just left his brother to rot in purgatory, and only thanks to Benny, Dean didn't remain there for eternity.
In no way Sam could be sure that Dean was dead, he didn't see a dead body, he didn't see anything, only Dean and Cass disappear. Like I said, Dean could have been anywhere. Sam has chosen the easy way believing that he was dead and move on. Really someone Dean can trust.
No it was not a easy choice neither was it the easy way out . Sam is many things but he is not a coward.

Edited by Alice - putting words in another poster's mouth. That's a violating a clearly written rule.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-07 07:09
Quoting cheryl42:
E and nappi I think this boils down to I know what I am trying to say I am just not articulating it very well. I don't disagree with either of you. I am just looking at this issue upsidedown and sideways. :-)

Quoting cheryl42:
E and nappi I think this boils down to I know what I am trying to say I am just not articulating it very well. I don't disagree with either of you. I am just looking at this issue upsidedown and sideways. :-)

i guess for me it's not all that complicated. Love isn't always enough to make a relationship work. There needs to be trust as well. A marriage doesn't work if there is no trust regardless of the love. It falls apart. For the marriage to succeed both parties have to work together to make the necessary changes that will save the relationship. Sam and dean are not unlike a married couple as admitted by dean in tall tales.
I keep hearing it's on Sam. I disagree that the victim in all of this also has to be the one make things right. I believe it's the party who caused all the hurt and broken trust who needs to make the first attempt in trying to make things right. But Sam has taken those steps that dean should've taken. Even as dean turned his back on his brother on that bridge instead of apologizing for the pain and hurt he'd caused him, Sam's words to dean were that him thinking he was poison was not the problem. Instead of staying and talking to Sam right there about what he meant, he left, leaving his brother alone to deal with everything..ins tead of dealing with it together.
Dean wanted to stay away too. he tried ditching Sam in sharp teeth, by lying no less, because dean couldn't face him. Still Sam stayed. Dean wants Sam to just forget all of it..bury it. And just go back to work like nothing happened. again dean running from Sam..but Sam can't use the magic eraser this time...yet does Sam leave? No, he stays. He wants to fix things. He has given dean time. He has given dean chances to make that move..to acknowledge sam's hurt and anger..but dean hasn't and Sam still stays..waiting. the way i see it, Sam has made the first move. He's still there. the question for me is....When is dean going to do his part?
How is the relationship going to work if only one of them Is trying to save it? Sam has to accept dean as he is but dean doesn't accept Sam for who he is and what he needs... that's not a relationship, that's more like a dictatorship. As I said, it takes two to make it work. It takes compromise. It takes understanding and yes it even takes change, and yes i mean change from both boys including dean winchester.
if ed and harry didn't help dean to see the error in his ways, then i really don't know who could.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-07 07:09
Quote:
E and nappi I think this boils down to I know what I am trying to say I am just not articulating it very well. I don't disagree with either of you. I am just looking at this issue upsidedown and sideways. :-)
Quote:
E and nappi I think this boils down to I know what I am trying to say I am just not articulating it very well. I don't disagree with either of you. I am just looking at this issue upsidedown and sideways. :-)
i guess for me it's not all that complicated. Love isn't always enough to make a relationship work. There needs to be trust as well. A marriage doesn't work if there is no trust regardless of the love. It falls apart. For the marriage to succeed both parties have to work together to make the necessary changes that will save the relationship. Sam and dean are not unlike a married couple as admitted by dean in tall tales.
I keep hearing it's on Sam. I disagree that the victim in all of this also has to be the one make things right. I believe it's the party who caused all the hurt and broken trust who needs to make the first attempt in trying to make things right. But Sam has taken those steps that dean should've taken. Even as dean turned his back on his brother on that bridge instead of apologizing for the pain and hurt he'd caused him, Sam's words to dean were that him thinking he was poison was not the problem. Instead of staying and talking to Sam right there about what he meant, he left, leaving his brother alone to deal with everything..ins tead of dealing with it together.
Dean wanted to stay away too. he tried ditching Sam in sharp teeth, by lying no less, because dean couldn't face him. Still Sam stayed. Dean wants Sam to just forget all of it..bury it. And just go back to work like nothing happened. again dean running from Sam..but Sam can't use the magic eraser this time...yet does Sam leave? No, he stays. He wants to fix things. He has given dean time. He has given dean chances to make that move..to acknowledge sam's hurt and anger..but dean hasn't and Sam still stays..waiting. the way i see it, Sam has made the first move. He's still there. the question for me is....When is dean going to do his part?
How is the relationship going to work if only one of them Is trying to save it? Sam has to accept dean as he is but dean doesn't accept Sam for who he is and what he needs... that's not a relationship, that's more like a dictatorship. As I said, it takes two to make it work. It takes compromise. It takes understanding and yes it even takes change, and yes i mean change from both boys including dean winchester.
if ed and harry didn't help dean to see the error in his ways, then i really don't know who could.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 07:29
Benny didn't kill anybody but Martin, It's canon (see "Citizen Fang" and "Taxi Driver").
Sam saw a disappearance, not a death. Sam was in the same room and he didn't die.
Did you see Sam's depression after Dean's disappearance? I didn't, can just imagine it.

Well, Dean can talk to Sam only about the job... he can not talk like a brother... and how can Dean try to resolve the situation if he can not even talk about it? To me Sam looks as stubborn (or dumb if you like) as Dean.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 07:29
Benny didn't kill anybody but Martin, It's canon (see "Citizen Fang" and "Taxi Driver").
Sam saw a disappearance, not a death. Sam was in the same room and he didn't die.
Did you see Sam's depression after Dean's disappearance? I didn't, can just imagine it.

Well, Dean can talk to Sam only about the job... he can not talk like a brother... and how can Dean try to resolve the situation if he can not even talk about it? To me Sam looks as stubborn (or dumb if you like) as Dean.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 07:48
Quote:

No it was not a easy choice neither was it the easy way out . Sam is many things but he is not a coward.
For me was a easy choise. The hard choice was to deal with the pain and look for his brother.

Edited by Alice - The comment you replied to was removed as a violation of our rules, so I'm removing your reply as well.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 07:48
Quote:

No it was not a easy choice neither was it the easy way out . Sam is many things but he is not a coward.
For me was a easy choise. The hard choice was to deal with the pain and look for his brother.

Edited by Alice - The comment you replied to was removed as a violation of our rules, so I'm removing your reply as well.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 08:13
Quoting Aro:
Benny didn't kill anybody but Martin, It's canon (see "Citizen Fang" and "Taxi Driver").
Sam saw a disappearance, not a death. Sam was in the same room and he didn't die.
Did you see Sam's depression after Dean's disappearance? I didn't, can just imagine it.

Well, Dean can talk to Sam only about the job... he can not talk like a brother... and how can Dean try to resolve the situation if he can not even talk about it? To me Sam looks as stubborn (or dumb if you like) as Dean.

Replied in the bitterness thread.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 08:13
Quote:
Benny didn't kill anybody but Martin, It's canon (see "Citizen Fang" and "Taxi Driver").
Sam saw a disappearance, not a death. Sam was in the same room and he didn't die.
Did you see Sam's depression after Dean's disappearance? I didn't, can just imagine it.

Well, Dean can talk to Sam only about the job... he can not talk like a brother... and how can Dean try to resolve the situation if he can not even talk about it? To me Sam looks as stubborn (or dumb if you like) as Dean.
Replied in the bitterness thread.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 08:15
Quoting Aro:
Quote:

No it was not a easy choice neither was it the easy way out . Sam is many things but he is not a coward.


For me was a easy choise. The hard choice was to deal with the pain and look for his brother.

Quote:

There is no Sam is the worst brother for this but Dean is a great brother for the way he saved Sam .
Never said that. I always said that both brothers were wrong. But here it seems that only Dean has to be condemned.
I will reply to this in the bitterness thread.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 08:15
Quote:
Quote:

No it was not a easy choice neither was it the easy way out . Sam is many things but he is not a coward.
For me was a easy choise. The hard choice was to deal with the pain and look for his brother.

Quote:

There is no Sam is the worst brother for this but Dean is a great brother for the way he saved Sam .
Never said that. I always said that both brothers were wrong. But here it seems that only Dean has to be condemned.
I will reply to this in the bitterness thread.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 08:36
Edited by Alice - Stay on topic. Comments about others are not allowed.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 08:36
Edited by Alice - Stay on topic. Comments about others are not allowed.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 08:43
Quoting Aro:
somebody maybe has no more arguments

8) and no need to be vague you can do better.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 08:43
Quote:
somebody maybe has no more arguments
8) and no need to be vague you can do better.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-03-07 08:46
Quoting Aro:

Did you see Sam's depression after Dean's disappearance? I didn't, can just imagine it.


I did see it actually, as someone who suffers from it. I imagine the writers didn't labour the point because it would make terrible television.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-03-07 08:46
Quote:

Did you see Sam's depression after Dean's disappearance? I didn't, can just imagine it.
I did see it actually, as someone who suffers from it. I imagine the writers didn't labour the point because it would make terrible television.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 08:47
As adult as Sam's behavior :-)
Don't like something? Just ignore it.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 08:47
As adult as Sam's behavior :-)
Don't like something? Just ignore it.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 08:53
#47 Actually, the authors just skipped that point.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 08:53
#47 Actually, the authors just skipped that point.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-03-07 09:12
Quoting Aro:
As adult as Sam's behavior :-)
Don't like something? Just ignore it.


That comment is highly ironic. I guess a grownup discussion is out of the question. Bye then.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-03-07 09:12
Quote:
As adult as Sam's behavior :-)
Don't like something? Just ignore it.
That comment is highly ironic. I guess a grownup discussion is out of the question. Bye then.
alice
# alice 2014-03-07 09:29
Okay, somewhere around post #13 the conversation veered from Sofia's review about this episode to more escalated banter about Sam and Dean again, not to mention by page 3 we're back to Sam vs. Dean bickering. These episode discussions are really meant for the episode that just aired. I hate the idea of wiping out pages of comments, especially with the amount of time you all put into them so I'll just say, back on topic! Talk about Thinman. Any comment after this that doesn't stay on topic will be stricken.

I'm implementing a new commenting system this weekend and I might end up changing the rules where ALL comments go through moderation before they get posted. This is just getting ridiculous.
Alice
# Alice 2014-03-07 09:29
Okay, somewhere around post #13 the conversation veered from Sofia's review about this episode to more escalated banter about Sam and Dean again, not to mention by page 3 we're back to Sam vs. Dean bickering. These episode discussions are really meant for the episode that just aired. I hate the idea of wiping out pages of comments, especially with the amount of time you all put into them so I'll just say, back on topic! Talk about Thinman. Any comment after this that doesn't stay on topic will be stricken.

I'm implementing a new commenting system this weekend and I might end up changing the rules where ALL comments go through moderation before they get posted. This is just getting ridiculous.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 09:42
Quoting Aro:
As adult as Sam's behavior :-)
Don't like something? Just ignore it.

Thank you for your compliment.But I will bow out of this conversation after this.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 09:42
Quote:
As adult as Sam's behavior :-)
Don't like something? Just ignore it.
Thank you for your compliment.But I will bow out of this conversation after this.
alice
# alice 2014-03-07 10:14
Would it help if I open up more Let's Discuss threads? A forum maybe? A place where you all can continue conversations like this but not flood episode review threads? I can put the Let's Discuss menu back on the front page for easy access. I don't want to shut down conversation, but the back and forth is very hard for those that come here wanting to read about the episode.
Alice
# Alice 2014-03-07 10:14
Would it help if I open up more Let's Discuss threads? A forum maybe? A place where you all can continue conversations like this but not flood episode review threads? I can put the Let's Discuss menu back on the front page for easy access. I don't want to shut down conversation, but the back and forth is very hard for those that come here wanting to read about the episode.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 10:36
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Quoting Aro:
As adult as Sam's behavior :-)
Don't like something? Just ignore it.

That comment is highly ironic. I guess a grownup discussion is out of the question. Bye then.


Just to say I didn't mean you but anonymousN who said to me "I will Reply to this in the bitterness thread".
Sorry Alice, I just wanted to express a different point of view on the situation. Bye!
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 10:36
Quote:
Quote:
As adult as Sam's behavior :-)
Don't like something? Just ignore it.
That comment is highly ironic. I guess a grownup discussion is out of the question. Bye then.
Just to say I didn't mean you but anonymousN who said to me "I will Reply to this in the bitterness thread".
Sorry Alice, I just wanted to express a different point of view on the situation. Bye!
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-03-07 11:19
Quoting alice:
Would it help if I open up more Let's Discuss threads? A forum maybe? A place where you all can continue conversations like this but not flood episode review threads? I can put the Let's Discuss menu back on the front page for easy access. I don't want to shut down conversation, but the back and forth is very hard for those that come here wanting to read about the episode.


Alice, it's nice you try to work things out. Thinman like all the episodes have loads of stuff that you can talk about. On my behalf I have noticed who of the commentors actually talk about the episodes and don't turn it to cat fight. People should be little less stricted or too passionate because it will turn nasty to read.

The brothers are having a tough time. They are arguing but they really don't need people defending and joining to their argue. Supernatural is so much more. So, I don't know about others. But if you go to negative zone I skip you fellas. Nothing personal.

Too bad that the discussion that would contribute and lift the spirit of the fans will not be seen by some because of this.

And great + to all reviewers. I really like them all and this site.

Lilah
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-03-07 11:19
Quote:
Would it help if I open up more Let's Discuss threads? A forum maybe? A place where you all can continue conversations like this but not flood episode review threads? I can put the Let's Discuss menu back on the front page for easy access. I don't want to shut down conversation, but the back and forth is very hard for those that come here wanting to read about the episode.
Alice, it's nice you try to work things out. Thinman like all the episodes have loads of stuff that you can talk about. On my behalf I have noticed who of the commentors actually talk about the episodes and don't turn it to cat fight. People should be little less stricted or too passionate because it will turn nasty to read.

The brothers are having a tough time. They are arguing but they really don't need people defending and joining to their argue. Supernatural is so much more. So, I don't know about others. But if you go to negative zone I skip you fellas. Nothing personal.

Too bad that the discussion that would contribute and lift the spirit of the fans will not be seen by some because of this.

And great + to all reviewers. I really like them all and this site.

Lilah
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-03-07 11:57
Quoting Aro:


Just to say I didn't mean you but anonymousN who said to me "I will Reply to this in the bitterness thread".


That changes nothing. I believe Anonymous was just trying to respect Alice's wishes that there be no Sam v Dean or discussion of past issues.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-03-07 11:57
Quote:


Just to say I didn't mean you but anonymousN who said to me "I will Reply to this in the bitterness thread".
That changes nothing. I believe Anonymous was just trying to respect Alice's wishes that there be no Sam v Dean or discussion of past issues.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 12:09
Quoting alice:
Would it help if I open up more Let's Discuss threads? A forum maybe? A place where you all can continue conversations like this but not flood episode review threads? I can put the Let's Discuss menu back on the front page for easy access. I don't want to shut down conversation, but the back and forth is very hard for those that come here wanting to read about the episode.
Yeah,that maybe a good idea and I have bookmarked the bitterness thread and unhappy thread..so I think if i ever feel that the conversation is going negative I will either cease the convo otherwise post in these two places
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 12:09
Quote:
Would it help if I open up more Let's Discuss threads? A forum maybe? A place where you all can continue conversations like this but not flood episode review threads? I can put the Let's Discuss menu back on the front page for easy access. I don't want to shut down conversation, but the back and forth is very hard for those that come here wanting to read about the episode.
Yeah,that maybe a good idea and I have bookmarked the bitterness thread and unhappy thread..so I think if i ever feel that the conversation is going negative I will either cease the convo otherwise post in these two places
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 16:40
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Quoting Aro:

Just to say I didn't mean you but anonymousN who said to me "I will Reply to this in the bitterness thread".

That changes nothing. I believe Anonymous was just trying to respect Alice's wishes that there be no Sam v Dean or discussion of past issues.


Glad to know you're anonymousN's defense lawyer.
He/She replied to me in an ironic way and I replied to him/her in an ironic way, I don't understand what is the problem. Oh no, I'm sorry... of course his sentence wasn't ironic, it was a grownup discussion.

I didn't started any Sam vs. Dean thing, I replied to a message that, referring to past events (Amy, text message) said that Dean is not able to apologize. I said that BOTH brothers have this problem, reffering to Benny and Purgatory .

I posted this yesterday
Quoting Aro:

So apparently both brothers have a hard time saying those two little words.

Both brothers!!!!!!!!!

Some of you replied that Sam did not have to apologize for Benny and Purgatory but Dean has to apologize now.
Some of you started the Dean vs. Sam thing, not me.
I said both brother was wrong, I said that Sam is AS stubborn AS Dean, NOT MORE.

Quoting Aro:
To me Sam looks as stubborn (or dumb if you like) as Dean.


But if somebody can comment here only if he always gives the reason to Sam, then I'm sorry that I interfered.

To Alice and Sofia
I am really very sorry. Your reviews are always interesting and objective. I just wanted to express my opinion in reference to some comments. I did not want to start any war or offend anyone. Anyway I will avoid commenting in the future.
Aro
# Aro 2014-03-07 16:40
Quote:
Quote:

Just to say I didn't mean you but anonymousN who said to me "I will Reply to this in the bitterness thread".
That changes nothing. I believe Anonymous was just trying to respect Alice's wishes that there be no Sam v Dean or discussion of past issues.
Glad to know you're anonymousN's defense lawyer.
He/She replied to me in an ironic way and I replied to him/her in an ironic way, I don't understand what is the problem. Oh no, I'm sorry... of course his sentence wasn't ironic, it was a grownup discussion.

I didn't started any Sam vs. Dean thing, I replied to a message that, referring to past events (Amy, text message) said that Dean is not able to apologize. I said that BOTH brothers have this problem, reffering to Benny and Purgatory .

I posted this yesterday
Quote:

So apparently both brothers have a hard time saying those two little words.
Both brothers!!!!!!!!!

Some of you replied that Sam did not have to apologize for Benny and Purgatory but Dean has to apologize now.
Some of you started the Dean vs. Sam thing, not me.
I said both brother was wrong, I said that Sam is AS stubborn AS Dean, NOT MORE.

Quote:
To me Sam looks as stubborn (or dumb if you like) as Dean.
But if somebody can comment here only if he always gives the reason to Sam, then I'm sorry that I interfered.

To Alice and Sofia
I am really very sorry. Your reviews are always interesting and objective. I just wanted to express my opinion in reference to some comments. I did not want to start any war or offend anyone. Anyway I will avoid commenting in the future.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 23:46
@58
The problem with your comment was you were attacking the people who were commenting and not the comments.
Your opinion is that both brothers should apologize and ours is that only Dean has to apologize.If you don't agree well and good .But if you attack me or someone there will be consequences.
As far as manzanita being my lawyer,she simply understood what I was saying.I did not want post my comment here as it was going away from the discussion which this article was intended for.I think you are new to this site.There is actually a bitterness and a unhappy thread where we can post our opinions which disrupt the flow of an article.I have posted my reply there.
I think Dean is being self righteous and has to apologize and you think Sam has to apologize for Benny and Purgatory.You can post it in this site but this is simply not the thread for it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-07 23:46
@58
The problem with your comment was you were attacking the people who were commenting and not the comments.
Your opinion is that both brothers should apologize and ours is that only Dean has to apologize.If you don't agree well and good .But if you attack me or someone there will be consequences.
As far as manzanita being my lawyer,she simply understood what I was saying.I did not want post my comment here as it was going away from the discussion which this article was intended for.I think you are new to this site.There is actually a bitterness and a unhappy thread where we can post our opinions which disrupt the flow of an article.I have posted my reply there.
I think Dean is being self righteous and has to apologize and you think Sam has to apologize for Benny and Purgatory.You can post it in this site but this is simply not the thread for it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-07 23:57
I have just created a Let's Discuss Supernatural after Thinman thread for those who want to use it. We can push the deeper discussions about the show, and what a new episode brings to the table. I'm going to try and post a new one for each episode for a while so we have a place to hash things out, without overwhelming the episode reviews thread.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-07 23:57
I have just created a Let's Discuss Supernatural after Thinman thread for those who want to use it. We can push the deeper discussions about the show, and what a new episode brings to the table. I'm going to try and post a new one for each episode for a while so we have a place to hash things out, without overwhelming the episode reviews thread.