This episode called “The Vessel” was written by Robert Berens and directed by John Badham. The episode begins with Nazi-occupied France, 1943. A German official is talking about delivering an artifact when his lover comes into the room. She asks to peek in the box at the artifact which contains something that she is stunned to see. She turns and kills the German officer and she takes the box. She tells the dead body that the Men of Letters send their regards.


In the bunker, Sam tells a caffeine denied Dean about the Nazi’s fascination with archeology. Apparently there are memos that tell of the Nazis taking the “Hand of God” and how they lost it to Delphine, the French lover, who turns out to be a woman of letters. In Crowley’s throne room, LuciferCas is playing a video game while demons huddle around giving updates. One demon steps forward and requests that he give them direction. LuciferCas trots out a chained up Crowley from a prison and he chastises the demons for talking back to their leader, Lucifer. LuciferCas calls Crowley a good doggie.

Back at the bunker, Sam and Dean are researching Delphine. Sam chastises Dean for drinking beer at noon, to which Dean says since Sam drank all the coffee, he needs to kind of shut up. They trace the hand of god and Delphine to a submarine that sunk during World War II, which was never recovered. Dean says they have a way to get to the artifact. Back in Hell’s castle, LuciferCas is disappointed in the weaponry that’s brought to him. He taunts Crowley about his defiance and makes Crowley admit that he thinks Lucifer is not strong enough to defeat Amara. They are interrupted by a call from Dean.

LuciferCas says that he can transport them back to the submarine. Sam argues against the plan but Dean says this is the one thing he can do since he can’t actually take out Amara. Sam makes Castiel promise to stay by Dean’s side. LuciferCas zaps Dean to the submarine and the Winchester finds himself alone and sees that the ship has been warded.

While Dean is on the ship, LuciferCas returns to the bunker all wet. He couldn’t make it past the hull of the ship. Dean takes out a soldier, trying to find Delphine. LuciferCas and Sam try to figure out a way to bring Dean back, which LuciferCas rolls his eyes at.

Back in time, Delphine is in the wardroom where Dean finds her. Before he can explain who he is, she pins him down. He claims to be a Men of Letters and the crew confronts him. He tells them he’s from the future and that within the hour, the ship will go down.

The Captain says that he thinks Dean is an AWOL soldier. The captain is skeptical about being attacked until his crew alerts him to an approaching ship. Dean asks Delphine about the warding and then explains that he needs the Hand of God to defeat a war in the future. The ship goes under water to avoid the attack.

Back at the bunker, Sam finds a spell that will help them but it requires the power of an archangel, which they don’t have. In the ship, Delphine says that the artifact is from the Ark of the Covenant and that she trusts him. The crew is called to their battle stations as Delphine goes to clear out the wards and sigils. The ship loses the signal from the attack ship and decides to go down deep for silent running. Delphine comes back and hands Dean a knife and shows him that she has a spellbound sigil that can only be cleared when she is killed. Dean hesitates and the ship is attacked.

LuciferCas is putting together the recipe for the spell and Sam notes that when Cas brought them back that he used Bobby’s soul in "Frontierland". LC says it’s not necessary but Sam insists and LuciferCas finally loses it and starts laughing. He reveals himself to be Lucifer and says basically that he doesn’t need Sam anymore and perhaps he kept him around because he’s like the girl that kept turning him down at the prom. LuciferCas decides he will kill Sam, via Soul Skewering.

Lucifer is stopped and he says “Hello, Castiel” as he removes his hand from Sam’s chest. In the submarine, the Germans are demanding their surrender and for Delphine and the artifact be returned to them. Dean asks Delphine to show him how to use the hand of God.

Castiel breaks through and tells Sam that they need Lucifer to save Dean.

Back in the submarine, Delphine uses the hand of God and the submarine starts lighting up and glowing. Explosions go off and just as Delphine starts to explode, LuciferCas appears and zaps Dean back to the future. Sam tells Dean that Cas is not Cas. LuciferCas smiles and says, “Cat’s out.”

LuciferCas tosses Dean across the room and then tells the brothers that he’s tired of the cover up. He takes out the hand of god to use against them but it doesn’t work. Its energy was depleted. Lucifer goes to kill Dean but Sam zaps him out of the bunker with a sigil. The brothers later discuss how to deal with the Castiel situation but Sam points out that he may not come back willingly since he chose it. Dean then reflects on the events in the submarine and he seems genuinely affected by their deaths. He asks about the German ship and Sam tells him that it was destroyed. Sam leaves as Dean sits alone, holding the useless Hand of God.

Another great outing by Robert Berens! He is my favorite, as you all know.

Thoughts, Feelings, Speculations

1. So how deep does the Men of Letters/Woman of Letters myth go this season? Does it seem they are focusing more on incorporating that background or is it me?

2. What do you think of Lucifer/Cas reveal?

3. What will Lucifer/Cas do next? How will Crowley come back into play?

4. What did you think about the Delphine story?

5. Will we have to find another hand of God to defeat Amara or was that a oneshot deal itself?

Leave your thoughts, feelings, speculations below!


 

Comments  

Debbie
# Debbie 2016-02-17 22:40
Thank you for the update, we are both back in I will watch supernatural again and so will my son David. Tonight we are both glad that Sam is still Sam again thank you
PSG
# PSG 2016-02-17 23:11
Did you miss the part where Lustiel says he needs Dean to defeat Amara. That seemed pretty important.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-17 23:48
It's Luciel. :D
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-18 07:12
Casifer
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-17 23:13
I enjoyed the episode very much and give it a solid B+. The entire plot surrounding Delphine, the Hand of God, the Germans and the sub worked well. It was engrossing and even moving. I had worried that the scenes on the sub would be hokey or cheesy, but they were actually pretty great. In their few scenes, the actors who played the crewmen managed to totally engage my interest and my sympathies. And the Delphine actress was fabulous. Too bad she's dead! Although it is a bit of a retcon that there was a female MOL, since wasn't Josie supposed to be one of the first, in the 1950s? But as Sam said, maybe it was an all hands on deck situation during the war. I loved the way the whole plot unfolded, that there was a credible reason that only Dean went into the past, and that Cas was unable to do so because of the sigil. It was excellent continuity to reference the Nazi necromancers, although this was telegraphed pretty clearly when the German ship was able to seemingly vanish. It is just awesome that the show is drawing on so many of the threads and stories from previous seasons, without trouncing canon in the process. It is also terrific that we are continuing to learn more about the MOL.

With all that was excellent about the ep, I still have some gripes. For one thing, I continue to be unimpressed with Casifer. Misha has dialed it down some, but there were frequent moments when his exaggerated facial expressions and/or his tone just made me cringe. But even more than Misha's acting, I don't like the way Lucifer is being written. It stands in stark contrast to the way he was written in S5 and I think it diminishes the character. This might sound odd, but I think Lucifer is above some of the nonsense and shenanigans he engages in in this ep. Lucifer supposedly hates demons, and he had utter contempt for them in S5 except for the odd way he called Meg "my child." But that was him simply using a demon for his own purposes. There is just no way he would waste his time and energy presiding at court and tolerating the demons and their bureaucratic concerns. It's as though he's Crowley on steroids, yet the S5 Lucifer seemingly had no interest in lording over hell, and I fail to see why this Lucifer would either. Which brings me to the worst part of the episode: the Crowley nonsense. First, it made me feel bad for MS. What indignities his character has suffered the past few seasons! More importantly, I just don't see Lucifer engaging in the petty degrading of Crowley. I would think that he would rather squash him like a bug as he did to the other gods in HOTG. It is silly and OOC for one of the most powerful creatures in the universe to engage in this behavior when all of his energies should be focused on crafting a strategy to defeat Amara. It strips Lucifer of his aura of power and menace to have him behaving like a schoolyard bully (albeit a powerful one) with his sycophantic followers. The Crowley/dog crap was almost as bad as the witch/hamster crap. I really did cringe at that scene.They are going to ruin Lucifer's character for me (and he's one of my very favorites) if they continue to have him behave this way.

My last complaint is with Cas being able to take control back from Lucifer, because to me it totally diminishes Sam's singular, and crowning, victory in Swan Song. Sure Cas was confronting the dire circumstances of Sam's imminent death, but it should be virtually impossible for a rank and file angel, especially one who is not at full strength, to best Lucifer. The seemingly impossible odds of any creature being able to accomplish this are what made Sam's achievement so powerful. This is what I feared when Cas agreed to possession, and it bothers me that the show is taking this route. It greatly reduces the threat posed by Lucifer if it is to be the case that Cas can wrest control back whenever Sam or Dean is in danger from Lucifer.

Despite these issues, I truly enjoyed most of the ep. I'm glad that the HOG, as impressive as it was when deployed, was a one-shot wonder. I wonder what Sam and Dean will do to dodge Casifer. Will they have to avoid the bunker? Presumably, they will. So are they back to crashing in motels? I actually would like that. So many questions remain, but the show is doing an amazing job of unspooling the plot slowly yet intriguingly. Although it seems a bit odd that the wrestling ep (which looks to be a humorous one) should follow such an emotional ep as this one. Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to it because the show has only rarely disappointed me this season.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-17 23:40
hey samndean,

I actually thought that the only reason Cas was able to gain control was due to the power of Sam's soul. Lucifer was touching Sam's soul at the time, and I just assumed that Cas was drawing power from Sam. I thought Cas weakened again when Luci let go of Sam's soul. Question here is....Can Luci be ejected by Cas at any time? Is that forshadowing? Will Cas eject the devil in order to save the Winchesters in the future? :o
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2016-02-18 01:31
I like your idea Sugarhi and that might be the case. But will he survive from that is another story. :)

- Lilah
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-18 02:11
Even if Cas was able to grapple control. I don't think it diminishes Sam's struggle with Lucifer in S5 To me it strengthens it. A mere young MORTAL man was so determined to save his brother and the world struggled forward at the last minute to defeat Lucifer and jump in the pit. Again it proves how LOVE will conquer all.
I really wanted to try and write something about this episode but SamandDean wrote it so perfectly that I won't bother. Thankyou SD :):):):)
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-18 03:28
I've lost track of the number of times Lucifer and Castiel have each touched Sam's soul. Plus Death, not-Ezekiel, now we can add Casifer to the list. Did I miss anyone?

Poor Sammy.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-18 05:32
Sammys a soul-slut. Sorry, I didn't mean to soul shame.... ;)
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-18 05:40
So true. Sam's soul is like the village bicycle. Everyone takes a spin.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 07:24
I just hope they all washed their hands before touching Sam's soul. :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 07:22
Quote:
I actually thought that the only reason Cas was able to gain control was due to the power of Sam's soul.
I don't know sugarhi, I think that cuts both ways. Just as Cas could have been drawing power from Sam's soul, so was Lucifer. But in terms of whether Cas can eject Lucifer at any time, Cas certainly seemed to imply that to Sam. The whole ejection thing has never really been spelled out. Regarding Gadreel, Cas seemed to indicate that once Sam was made aware of the possession he would be strong enough to expel Gadreel, which indicates that maybe not every vessel is strong enough to eject the angel possessing them I assume we are going to find out by the end of the season.
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-02-18 10:48
I actually took Cas saying Sam could eject Gadreel as being more a comment on the iffy nature of his consent. I know that angelic consent is in no way like consent for human transactions. Blackmail, torture and being underage don't matter. But knowing that you are saying yes to being possessed may be another level. I think that it allowed the angel to take residence, but it could be revoked. Certainly Gadreel hinted that if Sam knew he was being possessed Sam could eject Gadreel. No other angel has worried about that.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-18 15:53
Hinted? Gadreel flat out said it. To Dean. Repeatedly.
CyanaT
# CyanaT 2016-02-19 17:30
Quote:
I actually thought that the only reason Cas was able to gain control was due to the power of Sam's soul. Lucifer was touching Sam's soul at the time, and I just assumed that Cas was drawing power from Sam.
I agree, that's how Cas was strong enough to be able to temporarily break free to stop Lucifer from killing Sam. Which helps a lot for those of still pissed of by the show pursuing this problematic storyline in the first place.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-18 06:03
I think Cas being able to temporarily gain control over Lucifer was a nice parallel to Sam's actions in Stull Cemetery. Sam was able to gain control because of his love for Dean. Lucifer was about to kill Dean and that elicited such a visceral emotion from Sam he was able to punch through. Cas was able to do the same thing for just a moment when his love for Sam helped him over come Lucifer just long enough to break Luci's grip. Yes Sam was powered by DB and that helped him but Cas is an angel and the only power he doesn't have as far as we know is teleporting. DB and angel powers are probably fairly similar in strength.

I need to do a re watch but I too was uncomfortable with the scenes of Crowley in hell. As far as Lucifer hanging out there though he has used demons before to help him gain control of earth so I suppose using them now to get intell on Amara makes sense. Poor demons they just can't seem to keep their King.

The submarine was very cool. I liked the adventure/quest of finding the artifact. I need to re watch like I said because that whole ending sequence on the sub was confusing.

I was really scared for Sam. And now we know that Lucifer wants him dead Sam better watch his back. After Amara realizes that the only thing that will break her hold on Dean is Sam she will want him dead too. I kind of fear for Sam's soul right now.

Need to watch again. I give it a solid 7 at the moment.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 08:08
Quote:
I think Cas being able to temporarily gain control over Lucifer was a nice parallel to Sam's actions in Stull Cemetery.
Cheryl, that's actually precisely what bothers me about it. The scene is equating the two events, and indicating that the Cas/Sam bond is equal to the Sam/Dean bond. Sam was able to defeat Luci because of the profound brotherly bond between him and Dean, a bond seemingly like no other on the planet. While Cas and Sam have established a strong friendship, and I think either one would die for the other, I don't see their relationship being anything like Sam and Dean's. Maybe, MAYBE, Cas could resist Luci for Dean's sake, because of their "special bond," but to be able to overcome Luci for Sam's sake makes it seem too easy. even Bobby was able to resist stunt demon #3 for just a split second, and that was to save the life of Dean, his favorite surrogate son. But Lucifer is another ball of wax entirely. The show built him up as having powers you couldn't even dream of, which is why it was so extraordinary that Sam could overcome him. In my mind, that should have been a once in a series achievement. Now instead they are laying the groundwork for a scenario in which Cas's ability to prevail over Luci could conceivably be the deciding factor in the brothers' battle against Luci and Amara. I really hope they don't go down that path because it would suck to have him be the Sam who saves the world this time. I want the brothers to figure out how to rescue Cas, and then go on to save the world. It's their job, not Cas's!:)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-18 10:21
Well for the last 4 seasons the only family that Cas has is the Winchesters. He may have a stronger bond with Dean but he has killed other angels for threatening Sam. He does come (when he doesn't have a deep bad secret to hide) whenever Sam calls him. He has proven that over the years he loves Sam as much as he loves Dean.

I am stubbornly hanging on to my theory that not-John wasn't a vision from Lucifer. His message was clear. It was the brothers together that will defeat the Darkness. Castiel's job may be to defeat Lucifer.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-02-18 10:29
Is that not what Sam did in season 5 and SS defeat Lucifer . The only reason he is walking around is Castiel,s wishy washy decision and the shows need to give him some relevance .

The way they are presenting everything you wonder why Sam went to all that bother his sacrifice as lasted 5 yrs .
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-18 13:04
In defeating Lucifer Cas may help him achieve some redemption like what happened with Gadreel. This part of the story could go in any of a 100 directions. It may be that Cas will shove Lucifer back in the cage but I don't think so. It would be a disappointing and pointless storyline. We'll have to wait and see what happens.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-02-18 13:19
They should of not gone anywhere near the Lucifer sl again that sacrifice by Sam was too big for Castiel to so easily become Lucifer . If they wanted a redemption for Castiel because he feels useless or not loved enough then they should of found something original for him.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 19:12
Quote:
I am stubbornly hanging on to my theory that not-John wasn't a vision from Lucifer.
I agree. I've felt pretty sure all along that this vision was sent by an emissary of God's. I will be very disappointed if that's not the case. And it seems even more likely given the recent spoiler.:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-18 22:56
Vision courtesy of Gabriel? He's the only one it makes sense to have said "I could never trick you" seeing as Sam - with Deans input - worked out who the man at the counter was and also knew that Bobby wasn't Bobby. Sam and Dean and Bobby also figured out that it was he as the janitor behind the hijinks in the episode which featured the dancing alien. Gabriel helped the brothers in their fight against Lucifer with the information regarding the keys to the cage, knowing it was going to take each of them together, so it tracks that he would tell Sam it would be both of them against the Darkness.

I think Robs coming back as the Prophet Chuck. No way would they spoil he was returning as God this soon. If at all. Probably flashback. Speaking of prophets I know Metatron turned the prophet tap off when Gadreel was squatting in Sam but he was defeated. Where's the new new prophet?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-19 07:10
Quote:
Vision courtesy of Gabriel? He's the only one it makes sense to have said "I could never trick you" seeing as Sam -
I agree with this. And the main reason I think he was in that vision as God's emissary is because it would have taken an act of God to bring Gabriel back. He was definitively killed by Lucifer in HOTG, so if they retcon THAT I'll be ticked off. Lucifer most certainly would not have been fooled by one of Gabriel's fake "deaths."

As far as whether Chuck truly is God, I don't know how I'd feel about that. Very mixed feelings. But it is obvious that he was no ordinary prophet. There has never been any indication that a prophet has any supernatural powers other than the ability to magically rejoin the pieces of the tablet, as Kevin did. Yet Chuck very clearly vanished at the end of Swan Song. The show went out of its way to include that scene and Kripke indicated that it was done deliberately to raise the question of whether he was God. Moreover, Kevin never had anything remotely like Chuck's ability to foretell the events that were about to transpire. So even if Chuck is not God, I think he is more than a garden variety prophet. And I think his reappearance and/or Gabriel's reappearance would be definite signs of God's presence or intervention.
E
# E 2016-02-19 12:23
I can't remember.... did Not-John actually use the word 'trick' or was it fool? The word trick would be very telling IMO that that particular vision did in fact come from Gabriel....... hmmm.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-19 13:01
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgdm85evWqk[/video]

Well let's find out....
E
# E 2016-02-19 14:11
Hmmm...... 'fool' rather than 'trick.' The not-John character was more chummy than Gabriel usually was with the boys who was always a bit more flippant or caustic. Yeah... I got nothin! I have no idea who what was, except that I am pretty sure it wasn't Luci. I'm holding on to that.
CyanaT
# CyanaT 2016-02-19 17:51
[Quote:
I agree. I've felt pretty sure all along that this vision was sent by an emissary of God's. I will be very disappointed if that's not the case. And it seems even more likely given the recent spoiler
Ditto X2 (You and Cheryl). I'm stubborn, too. It was the only vision to not involve torture, The Cage and Lucifer, and not!John specifically said only the brothers could defeat The Darkness. I still hold that 'Lucifer' is too arrogant to even pretend to say nice things about Dean, including Dean's taking care of Sammy and Baby - Dean and 'Baby' played a huge role in Sam's being able to overcome Lucifer. Lucifer didn't even know about the Amara-Dean bond until 11.11.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-02-18 11:42
Absolutely. Agree 100 % with everything stated.
Sugarhi15
# Sugarhi15 2016-02-18 13:01
That is why I believe that it was the touching of sam's soul, which is unbelievably strong, given all the torture it has endured, that enabled cas to gain control. Im not saying his feelings for sam didnt play a part, its why cas wanted control, but i still think the power of sams soul helped, as the power of sams soul and who he is helped him gain control in swan song.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2016-02-18 07:44
I agree with your assessment about how Lucifer is being portrayed. That whole scene with Crowley was just ridiculous. I get that he wanted intel, but I don't see him playing Crowley's role, sitting in the chair, listening to stupid demons babble. My image of Lucifer from the show has always been how he was portrayed in Hammer of the Gods. So menacing and lethal. I think Misha is doing fine. He's really got some of the tone and nuances of Mark's down. I just don't find him menacing.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 08:10
Quote:
I just don't find him menacing.
Exactly my problem with him! He seems more like Metatron than like original Luci.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2016-02-18 08:34
I feel the same way. Every time he was supposed to be Luci it took me right out of the story. He's just not cutting it as Luci.
E
# E 2016-02-19 16:28
Agreed! Menace is not Misha's forte... I think creepy could work for him, you know, in that serial killer, stalker kind of way? That could be very effective. Misha has said in at least one interview that it was really impressed upon him by TPTB to watch Mark P's footage and really emulate what he was doing. It seems he's really been directed to imitate. Big mistake IMO. Mark P. could certainly do menacing and I've always loved how he could go from jovial to dangerous in a flat second, but to me the true master of that was Jared. His The End Luci was downright chilling, magnanimously charmingly dangerous. And in season five his Luci reminded me of a shark, circling wounded prey. You could tell which character he was, Sam vs. Luci simply by how he held the muscles in his face. To me, Jared was the one true, terrifying Lucifer. I wish they would let Misha find he own way with the character. Making him imitate is doing him a disservice as an actor. He doesn't need to be Mark P or Jared, he needs to be Lucifer in whatever way that he thinks is best.
Mallena
# Mallena 2016-02-18 11:44
Lucifer is an egomaniac. He likes an audience, followers, beings he can torture.. With the high level angels gone, who does he have? Right now he's playing to his demon audience, later I'm sure he'll move on to other things. The other angels, humans? I'm excited to find out. I like Misha and the way he is switching from Cas to Lucy. Not perfectly, maybe, but it is darn entertaining.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 18:17
Quote:
Lucifer is an egomaniac. He likes an audience, followers, beings he can torture..
Mallena, I agree that Lucifer is an egomaniac, and an extremely arrogant one, but I've never seen any evidence that he cares much about having an audience and followers, other than using them to achieve his purposes. His followers were mostly the demons, and he never showed anything but hatred and contempt for them. To me, Lucifer has been all about his prideful refusal to bow down before the hairless monkeys, and everything he did was to advance his agenda of eliminating them, rather than simply gaining power for power's sake. After all, in Swan Song he offered to stand down and would have agreed to a truce with Michael. His current agenda is seemingly to defeat Amara, because with God and all of the other archangels dead or in the wind, she is the only obstacle between Lucifer and absolute power, in which case he can do as he wishes with the humans and demons. So IMO there is no way he would be screwing around on Crowley's throne performing for the demons whom he despises. And what does he need them for? He alone of the angels can fly so he could have been to each and every one of his crypts in search of weapons before the minion demons could even get in the car. I know many viewers like Misha's interpretation of Lucifer, and sure it is entertaining at times, but to me it is completely unconvincing as a portrayal of the Prince of Darkness, one of the 3 most powerful beings in the universe. I think he's sapping Lucifer of all of his mystique. But I'm happy that you are enjoying it! :)
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-17 23:30
About to watch this ep now After reading comments I am very excited I will also watch for anything that you guys may have missed.
Thank you SamandDean your show opinion is one of 2 - 3 that I value As has been written before the writers appear to find it difficult to write good big bad characters.
I also think that we all should get a pat on the back because many of us speculated that it would be German/ and a secret organization of some sort So big clap to us all YEAH :):):):)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 06:54
Quote:
Thank you SamandDean your show opinion is one of 2 - 3 that I value
That's a very nice thing to say Jen! But now I feel great pressure to be especially incisive in my comments. :)
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-18 00:27
Can we discuss how this show after 10 full seasons keeps getting betterer and betterer WOW everything in this ep. was like a movie production Those submarine pics and actions FANTASTIC
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-18 03:14
I didn't think I'd enjoy this ep as much as I did. I was expecting it to be Sam-lite, but it was actually Sam-smart and Sam-strong.

Things that bothered me: That Sam did not seem too distressed about discovering that Luci is roaming the earth nor did he seem to distressed about coming face to face with Luci. I mean, this has to be Sam's worst nightmare and he seemed to take it all in stride. Not a lot of emotion from Sam. Dean, on the other hand, was in tears at the end. It just felt off to me.

I'm wondering if Amara is indeed the big bad this season...maybe Luci is the big bad? Just a thought.

I had to FF the Luci/Crowley scenes. Can't stand how Crowley is being written as Luci's pet. Hoping Crowley gets his mojo back soon.

In one of the promos we saw Sam pointing a gun at Casifer. I was expecting that scene to be in this ep, did I miss it?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2016-02-18 04:50
Quote:
I was expecting it to be Sam-lite, but it was actually Sam-smart and Sam-strong.
But was it Sam lite?I ask because I have not watched the last episode and am not watching others till the end of this season...most probably.
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-18 05:13
IMO, it was balanced. I didn't really enjoy the scenes on the sub like others have. It didn't feel like Dean was an active participant in the action - more of a bystander.

I thoroughly enjoyed the scenes with Casifer and Sam. I'm just surprised that Sam wasn't more distraught after coming face to face with Lucifer.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-18 05:39
At this point I think poor Sam and Dean are beyond shock. ;) Huh. Lucifers is in Cas now? Must be Thursday...

I'm amazed at this point that they can even get out of bed... Caffeine? I'd be guzzling antacids with booze and gulping down antidepressants !!! Ha!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-18 07:33
I think that Sam's reaction being muted was simply a matter of how they wanted the story to feel at the end of the episode, and that was to make it more of a Dean moment with the knowledge that he got the HoG, but it was a bust and all those men and Delphine still died. Sam's reaction wasn't the focal point of the episode at that point, it was Dean's sense of failure in that moment which I am guessing will motivate him to ramp up his need to make sure Amara is taken out somehow..... maybe fuel his recklessness and need to sacrifice himself.
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-18 05:06
Good point Didi we have been so focused on Amara because the show is taking us in that direction You easily forget about Lucy and Lucy was introduced late in the season.
It also makes you wonder -- a lot of the focus on Amara is "Is she Good or Bad" Is she simply misunderstood someone who really doesn't won't to hurt people but needed to ?? to get gods attenion. Whereas Lucy is just plain evil and will kill anyone and everyone for the fun of it. You have raised a interesting thought. Either way The Boys are going to need Devine help with these two
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-18 05:22
Jen, did you find it strange that coming face to face with Lucifer, basically Sam's worst nightmare, didn't seem to have a big emotional impact on Sam. His reaction felt like just another day at the office. I just wanted to reach through my tv, grab Sam by the lapels and say Hello, dude, Luci is roaming the earth - how are you not affected by that knowledge?
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-02-18 05:37
I think they have made a complete nonsense out of the Lucifer stuff as it is however he more than likely did not react because they never thought of it.
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-18 06:52
Yes & No Didi He is Sam's biggest fear but the time in the cage with him and Sam being strong really cemented it for Sam Like the clown in the elevator Sam faced it and won I don't think Sam would fear him so much any more (And Sam was more concerned about Dean) But Sam would fear his strength and power Not Lucy so much.

Question Why is Sam mothering Dean so much I know his concerned about the connection with Amara --- but has Sam gone a bit over board (no pun intended)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-18 05:43
Ah. I hope it doesn't turn out that Amara helps to defeat Lucifer... I'm reading different places criticism of Mishas portrayal of Lucifer. I think he's crushing it. You can see aspects of Mark Ps interpretation as well as Misha adding his own through Cas. Haters gotta hate. Nothing that man does could ever satisfy some.
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-18 06:45
Alycat I am so annoyed with myself I read the perfect article on just this Cas/Lucifer. Now I can't find the link to the article. When Misha was approached to do this he really wasn't sure he could pull it off Misha said it was overwhelming. He actually spent a couple of hrs with Mark Pelligrino to learn his take on Lucifer and practice different ideas with Mark, and how to portray Mark's Lucifer
Now that I speak of it I'm sure someone will know where to find it so it can be put here for people to read PLEASE

I like many arn't really sure on Misha's Lucy I'm glad he isn't pulling those facial expressions so much They just looked ugly not even comical. The other problem I think is Mark P in looks / looks rougher and meaner ? then Cas and the role was built and written with Mark in mind. Somehow Sam pulled it off really well but I think Sam played his Lucifer not Mark's whereas if Misha played his Lucifer with some Mark traits it might have been better. At the moment its off the scales -- SPN does have trouble at times writing for big villians. I would have prefered a more quieter manipultive Lucifer rather than a dirty ?? Lucifer I can't think of a word Sorry I just wrote below that I reckon this season is going to do a Big flip flop and Amara will kill Lucifer and the Boys Amara
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-18 07:35
I think this is the article you are referring to - this link is to an article at ew.com ("http://www.ew .com/article/20 16/02/17/supern atural-misha-co llins-lucifer")
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 07:03
Quote:
Haters gotta hate. Nothing that man does could ever satisfy some.
Jeez Alycat. I hope you're not saying that anyone who doesn't like Misha's portrayal is a hater. Because that certainly isn't the case with respect to me. I like Cas and I think Misha has done a great job with all of the various incarnations of Cas. I just don't like his interpretation of Lucifer. It feels like he has turned him into a cartoon villain, and there is nothing particularly impressive or scary about this version of Lucifer. I really find it very disappointing, but I certainly don't hate Misha for it.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-18 07:33
Samanddean10 - agreed... Misha's portrayal of Lucifer is coming across as a bad caricature and isn't working for me. I don't think there's anything particularly "hateful" about that statement, just a difference of opinion.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-18 07:56
I have to agree with you on several front samanddean....f irst off, I am not thrilled with Misha's portrayal of Casifer either, and I certainly can't be referred to by such a juvenile and pat term as "hater." Misha has not got an air of menace about him, he simply can't seem to do mean. That's an opinion btw, not "hating" but I guess any sort t of criticism, even valid criticism gets a suppressive label these days. I also think that maybe TPTB have made a mistake in asking Misha to craft his portrayal after MP's...... Mark P played Lucifer in the way that he saw fit as an actor and brought his strengths to that role. Jared did too; if you look at Jared'd portrayal next to Mark's you will see that neither actor is imitating the other, just playing the role in the way that is best for them; and that's worked well to create a single character from two differing perspectives; we perceive those two interpretations as one character even though they are really quite different. Because of the popularity of the character TPTB seem to be pressuring Misha to do an imitation rather than a characterizatio n which I think is a mistake. I think what might work better as far as Misha is an actor is concerned is if Cas's Lucifer was more a creepy serial killer type than a copy of MP's jovial menace..... Misha hasn't really got a "menacing" vibe to him, but I'll bet he can do creepy stalker like no one else.

Another thing I agree with... as soon as I saw Luci in Crowley's throne room I groaned. More bureaucratic angels...ugh. I was just watching Born Under a Bad Sign again on TNT and marveling at how awful, scary and dangerous a single low level demon USED to be on this show. I HATE what they've done with Hell and the way the demons operate. They've become comic relief, and that's a big mistake IMO. I wasn't thrilled about the turn in Crowley's story either. Given how awful he's been for years, I really felt sorry for him.... and really, they've given very little reason for Casifer to have any interest in keeping Crowley alive. I hope that they fix that soon, it's about to become a plot hole. Given even one small opportunity, Crowley will bolt and run screaming to the Winchesters.

My new spec is along the lines of AlyCat's that Amara will help defeat Luci. That would be a big disappointment for me if it happens, but I could definitely see them going in that direction. Boo. I am not getting a read on who is supposedly worse at the moment either. Amara is supposed to be more powerful, but Luci is clearly the bigger threat simply because he hates the Winchesters, especially Sam. Not sure where they are going, but really glad to see such a strong episode after two OK ones. Only 1 stinker so far (Bad Seed) and maybe 2/3 mediocre episodes out of 14....that's a great batting average and a huge improvement over seasons 9 and 10 especially.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2016-02-18 08:11
I agree with demons being comical now. Nicki's portrayal of Meg is my favourite. She makes demons seem like the worst thing to run into on this show!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-18 08:29
Yeah... and Jared was smoking in that episode.....




Literally!
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2016-02-18 09:40
*drools* Erm.. *wipes drool* Sorry, evil Sam is just hot :P

Oh man now I feel a strong desire to write some Evil Sam.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 17:43
Amen sister!:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-18 16:24
Bogirlie you need to read more carefully what was actually written by me. Not calling you a hater. Relax.
jane
# jane 2016-02-18 19:08
I am even more afraid that Sam and Dean are going to work with Crowley and Lucifer to defeat the darkness.
I would be so so disappointed with the show. As much as when Sam didn't look for Dean in season 8. It would me a total waste of both Sam and Dean sacrifice during the first five seasons.
jane
# jane 2016-02-18 19:17
I am even more afraid that Sam and Dean are going to work with Crowley and Lucifer to defeat the darkness.
I would be so so disappointed with the show. As much as when Sam didn't look for Dean in season 8. It would me a total waste of both Sam and Dean sacrifice during the first five seasons.
jane
# jane 2016-02-18 19:17
I am even more afraid that Sam and Dean are going to work with Crowley and Lucifer to defeat the darkness.
I would be so so disappointed with the show. As much as when Sam didn't look for Dean in season 8. It would me a total waste of both Sam and Dean sacrifice during the first five seasons.
jane
# jane 2016-02-18 19:17
I am even more afraid that Sam and Dean are going to work with Crowley and Lucifer to defeat the darkness.
I would be so so disappointed with the show. As much as when Sam didn't look for Dean in season 8. It would me a total waste of both Sam and Dean sacrifice during the first five seasons.
jane
# jane 2016-02-18 19:17
I am even more afraid that Sam and Dean are going to work with Crowley and Lucifer to defeat the darkness.
I would be so so disappointed with the show. As much as when Sam didn't look for Dean in season 8. It would me a total waste of both Sam and Dean sacrifice during the first five seasons.
jane
# jane 2016-02-18 19:17
I am even more afraid that Sam and Dean are going to work with Crowley and Lucifer to defeat the darkness.
I would be so so disappointed with the show. As much as when Sam didn't look for Dean in season 8. It would me a total waste of both Sam and Dean sacrifice during the first five seasons.
jane
# jane 2016-02-18 19:18
I am even more afraid that Sam and Dean are going to work with Crowley and Lucifer to defeat the darkness.
I would be so so disappointed with the show. As much as when Sam didn't look for Dean in season 8. It would me a total waste of both Sam and Dean sacrifices during the first five seasons.
E
# E 2016-02-19 13:37
It's my spec that this is exactly where they are going. They've worked with Crowley many, many times since his appearance in season 5, so I don't really have a problem with it here. Actually, Crowley has more reason to work with Sam and Dean now than he ever did before..... the enemy of my enemy and all that. I guess that the philosophy of "never trust or work with a demon" is well and truly gone.
BoGirle.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-19 07:16
Quote:
I HATE what they've done with Hell and the way the demons operate. They've become comic relief, and that's a big mistake IMO.
This is so true, and it's been really bothering me for the past few seasons.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-18 16:20
No, I wasn't referring to bona fide criticisms of Mishas performance as Lucifer - as you said, personal.opinio ns and all that. It's going to work for some and not so much for others. I was referring more to the attacks on him. Not that I've seen here but as I said that I've read in other places. People that let their severe hatred toward Misha color their criticism. For them he can't even breathe correctly.

Mishas not going to be dead on Marks performance - he can't be. Shouldn't be. Two different faces. But he's got a lot of his mannerisms down. I never found Mark Ps portrayal particularly scary. I understand this version of Lucifer. He's quietly evil. I like how he uses his power in a calm way like he doesn't have a care in the world. He's free and dare I say happy? Pleased might be a better word. Once Amaras out of the picture he can do whatever he desires. He won't be restrained by humans or demons. For now he's using anyone he needs to get to that point. I liked how we saw him lose his temper when he didn't get what he wanted. He's prideful, arrogant and angry and that's going to lead to his downfall.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-18 07:36
I think Amara is just as bad as Lucifer. I don't believe her to be misunderstood at all. She's made it basically clear that she has no regard for life whatsoever. She kills just to draw out her brother. She places no value on human life at all. She, like Lucifer, has a beef with God and thus is more than willing to destroy and corrupt out of spite. She's all about taking what she wants when she wants it to get what she wants. She's arrogant and prideful like Lucifer and thinks she can just do as she wishes without regard to free will...as we see in her quest for Dean. She is the original corrupter in the first place. The only difference, imho, between her and Lucifer is she has bigger boobs. They both have to go...

I kind of wonder if the Hand of God is actually a physical object. The angels kept referring to the Michael Sword, and we were led to believe it was an object, yet it turned out to be Dean. I just wonder if the "hand of God' metaphorical... .that it's not necessarily an object, but more...like faith or love...;)
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-02-18 10:57
I'm with you on Amara being as bad as Lucifer. She's not as malicious as Lucifer, but that doesn't mean she's not bad or should be understood. Smallpox isn't malicious, but we wiped that out anyway.

Amara wants to end everything, she has stated that she's the end. She takes away the one thing that makes us human, our souls. She's offering "peace" and making people feel peaceful about murdering others. She is as bad as Lucifer, who wanted the world to be cleansed of humans and returned to the state of the Garden of Eden, minus people. Both are bad for humanity and need to be stopped.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 19:20
Quote:
The only difference, imho, between her and Lucifer is she has bigger boobs.


Agreed! maybe that's why they keep her in those low-cut dresses, so we don't confuse her with Lucifer.;)
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2016-02-18 05:19
Quote:
In one of the promos we saw Sam pointing a gun at Casifer. I was expecting that scene to be in this ep, did I miss it?
Most likely a cut scene, which we seem to be getting a lot of this season in the episode trailers. I'm hoping to see the blu ray to have a substantial amount of cut content.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-18 07:37
Quote:
That Sam did not seem too distressed about discovering that Luci is roaming the earth nor did he seem to distressed about coming face to face with Luci. I mean, this has to be Sam's worst nightmare and he seemed to take it all in stride. Not a lot of emotion from Sam.
Maybe I need to rewatch the ep Didi, but I thought Sam displayed enormous shock and fear when he realized it was Lucifer. He stood there dumbstruck while Casifer informed him that he had no need for him and was going to slaughter him. That's why I loved how he regrouped and managed to draw that blood sigil. I do think it's also true that his last experience in the cage has given Sam a sense of strength regarding Lucifer.While he still fears Luci and his amazing power, Sam will no longer cower in fear when confronted by him. Being trapped in the cage with Luci once again WAS Sam's worst nightmare yet he came out of it stronger than when he went in. He has learned that he is strong enough to resist him, and that he can even manage to get under Luci's skin and throw him off balance a bit. Or maybe, like me, he simply finds Casifer to be a watered down version of Lucifer, not worthy of stark terror!:)
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2016-02-18 05:09
1. So how deep does the Men of Letters/Woman of Letters myth go this season? Does it seem they are focusing more on incorporating that background or is it me? I don't think its going to matter much later on.

2. What do you think of Lucifer/Cas reveal? Wonderful! That scene was great. I was shocked Lucifer was going to kill Sam though. When he's really pissed off he'll even kill his true vessel! At least I got a bit of that tortured Sam. Wasn't the best but I'll take it. I'm going to have so much fun re writing that scene :P

On another note I thought Mark Pellegrino was listed as a guest actor? Was that scene cut or was it just a mistake?

3. What will Lucifer/Cas do next? How will Crowley come back into play? Typical of Crowley he's constantly plotting and waiting for the chance to strike. As for Casifer? I don't know but I'm looking forward to it.

4. What did you think about the Delphine story? Was good.

5. Will we have to find another hand of God to defeat Amara or was that a oneshot deal itself? One shot. Unless God pops in and re charges it!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-18 06:21
Liked it more on second watch and even better on third. It was sad getting to briefly know those sailors (and Spy Girl) enough to care about them that it was painful that they died. Well done. At least they had the satisfaction of knowing the allies defeat Hitler. I liked how it suddenly dawned on Lucifer to question why he was trying to keep Sam alive. Shows he's not omnipotent. He's prideful and arrogant which is going to assist in his fall. I wonder what the tie in is to Dean, Sam, Amara, Lucifer... what was the foreshadowing from when Spy Girl said the sigil is spell bound to her heart and blood. It's power lives and dies with her. Makes one think of the MOC/Amara.

So next week is the wrestling ep and then two week hiatus?
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2016-02-18 06:48
Yeah and from the promo Crowley is in a suit too so either he's escaped or he is basically running hell for a disinterested Lucifer. Hopefully that means Crowley is back to his conviving best working on bringing down Lucifer from the inside of hell as the demons in question didn't look too impressed with their new King.

Also liked the little hint that Lucifer bringing down Amara may have involved the other arch angels meaning Michael and Gaberial may be been involved more than Lucifer said.

As for the spy girls sigil, when she said it was tied to her heart I too thought about the MoC. Like they were finally explaining why they never brought up cutting off Dean's arm when he had it.
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-18 06:54
Alycat - I'm sure you wrote something interesting but all I saw was 2 WEEK HELLATIUS aaaaaaaaaaaaaah hhhhhhhhhhh :(:(:(:(:(:(:(
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-18 08:22
I though that this episode was excellent. Great characterizatio ns, interesting one off characters that I really cared about, a strong woman in Delphine...(lov ed her! Sexy, strong, ruthless, smart....so of course she's dead now :p). The visuals of the submarine in the open water with the storm approaching was stunning.... was that all CGI? Well done! I liked how convincing Dean was on the sub....he didn't even try and make up some story, knowing it was impossible, so he simply told the truth; I liked that. Delphine, as a Woman of Letters, had clearly been around the block enough to know he was telling the truth. How is it that Robert Berens can create so much richness and interest in side characters in a single episode when other writers can't seem to generate anything interesting in the characters that we already know? (Bad Seed for example....who could have cared less about Cas or Rowena in that ep? *raises hand*) As far as plot goes, this was pretty straight forward and simple and yet the detail was so much more satisfying, the dialog crisper and more meaningful, the reveals more weighty. With the small exception of the Crowley story, I liked everything that happened here. The Submarine was suitably claustrophobic, the atmosphere of it very convincing (kudos to the direction and set dressing!) Watching Sam work with Casifer was skin crawlingly tense as we waited to see if he would discover what we already knew. The timing on that was perfect, had the subterfuge gone on longer the boys would have begun to look dumb, so the reveal was timed really well. I love it that Luci just got tired of trying to pretend to be Cas and basically outed himself through his own impatience; I think that attitude might play into Casifer's downfall. All in all a really well-written classy episode.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-18 08:39
A very tense, fast moving, well written episode. I liked the earlier season tie ins to Nazis, necromancers, Men of Letters, etc; always good when the show remembers its history and stays true to it.

Some observations -

1. Lucifer realizes he isn't strong enough to take on Amara.

2. Casifer was acting very differently than Castiel, to the point where Sam should have noticed. The only way they could have made it more obvious would be for someone to stand next to Casifer with a sign that said "LUCIFER" with a big arrow pointing at Castiel. I can understand that Sam was somewhat distracted trying to find a way to bring Dean back, or overly caffeinated, but this was portraying Sam as an idiot.

3. The explanation for the "supernatural" warding was weak but I suppose it was the best they could do. How would they have warding that "blocked" angels when angels hadn't walked the earth in close to 2,000 years?

4. Time travel is always difficult to pull off and frequently leaves more questions than answers. If it were that easy/possible, just send Dean back to before he took on the MoC so he doesn't take on the MoC - that would alter history, Cain would still be living as a recluse with the Mark, Amara would never have been released and neither would Lucifer. But... then again, it sounds as though Castiel is no longer capable of sending someone thru time, but Henry Winchester was able to do so without an angel so I'm sure there's something kicking around in the MoL bunker.

5. The part about Delphine's sigil being tied to her heart and blood might be a little foreshadowing on how to defeat Amara. Might also explain Dean's reaction when in Amara's presence.

6. Why was Dean is denial about Castiel having said yes to Lucifer? He knows the vessel/meat suit needs to say yes in order to possess someone.

7. I'm not so sure that Castiel is strong enough to eject Lucifer even if he wanted to; him being able to temporarily overpower Lucifer was an act of desperation in trying to save Sam.

8. Heavy foreshadowing after Dean's confession to Sam about Amara last week and then being a witness to everything happening on the submarine. Dean is used to being an active participant/lea ding the charge against whatever they're facing.

9. Could have done without the Crowley on a leash and "good doggie" stuff; makes Lucifer look more petty and less menacing.

10. The ending scene by the water didn't work for me; seemed tacked on and strangely out of place in an otherwise very good episode.
Fi
# Fi 2016-02-20 10:55
I`ve only watched it once and late at night, so I could be wrong, but the impression I got was that Dean was more in denial that Cas may decide not to eventually reject Lucifer rather than the fact he said yes in the first place?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-20 20:33
That's how I took it. As in there is no way Cas wouldn't choose to come back.
Shante
# Shante 2016-02-18 08:53
i was bored, i dont care that dean went back in time, happened in season 7 was much better, i expected Sam to notice a lot earlier while Dean was gone within 15 minutes not 30 minutes in. theonly scene i liked was Sam and Casifer. im tired of Casifer now, i sayr ir again there are only 2 Lucifers Jared and Mark
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2016-02-18 10:58
1. So how deep does the Men of Letters/Woman of Letters myth go this season? Does it seem they are focusing more on incorporating that background or is it me?

Don't know if it foes deeper but I really do like them opening it up more. MoL history is interesting. It seems a little bit like "The Thule" was a nemesis of sort to them. Every Man or woman of letter have been interesting so bring them on. The sigil was also interesting. It is not enochian and looked more like rune writing. I am guessing it was in general "for celestial beings and monsters" and I would like to know how the MoL came up with it. They did not know about angels like they said. Delphine was also spicy and awesome. I love that they used my corner of the woods and the original language at the start and not just English. Always a plus. Can I have those books that Sam was researching? I really want them. ;)

2. What do you think of Lucifer/Cas reveal? From the start this has crept me me out. Misha is doing a good job and I did like to read the article about it. It is funny how he can play Cas, Lusifer playing Cas, Lucifer at the same time. And Cas so that he is little bit off with Lusifer. The situation itself makes my skin crawl. I mean if my friend was suddenly switched like that to a psychopath who meant a lot to me, who I trusted and told everything came into my home and I would tell him my secrets or trust my brother to her care. It creeps me out so Cassifer creeps me out. Also when he was trying to kill Sam or walking to kill Dean... He wants the Winchesters dead. Just no. Time in the cage have not been kind to Lucifer. He is a maniac which is understandable. If Michael is really in the state Lucifer says he is so why Lucifer would be any different? I can understand that Sam was petrified and that Dean was in denial about Cas. The disbelief about the situation was very justified.

3. What will Lucifer/Cas do next? How will Crowley come back into play? I didn't like that much the humiliation of Crowley but I understood it. Lucifer has been torturing him (He asked about his wounds) and this is just continuation to that. Crowley will fight back immediately when he can but he is no match against Lucifer so he needs to get away from him first. As for Lucifer? Hopefully not trying to kill the guys. I think he will have the Crowley issue soon in his hands.

4. What did you think about the Delphine story? Loved it. Thumbs up! It was a surprise that the Nazi she killed was alive in the end and a Thule.

5. Will we have to find another hand of God to defeat Amara or was that a oneshot deal itself? I think that was one shot deal. The MoL is the professor side of Indiana Jones. I loved this story and that the Hand of God was a piece of the Ark of the Covenant. I might have squeed like a archaeology geek I am when I heard that. The story was very movie like and reminded me about Riders of the Lost Ark which I love to high heaven. Also the submarine sets were spot on and the VFX. Although it would be awesome if they would bring more Supernatural artifacts with the stories to Supernatural.

Have watched the episode five times already. :)

- Lilah
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-18 13:17
Can someone please help me understand the dealio regarding possession, consent, and expulsion. Trying to piece together the canon around this topic is like trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together. For me at least, it's an excersize in futility.

Can Cas expel Luci at any time? If so, wouldn't Luci know that is something Cas can do - so why is he so eager to kill off Sam, his true vessel? Makes S5 feel like a moot point.

As njspnfan said above, why is Dean in denial about Cas having said yes to Luci? Dean knows the rules. I don't know, maybe Dean is as confused by the rules as I am.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Dana
# Dana 2016-02-18 14:19
Rules? What rules? It's about as ethereal as the demon rules; who can just appear or dissappear, be summoned. Or Purgatory rules; only soulless monsters but lots of souls to use, no way in or out except... Or, MOL rules. Obvi the MOL had sigils even if they apparently didn't use them for angels, you'd figure they'd have used them on the bunker ( actually be quite funny to see angels bumping into the bunker on a regular basis but since the doors are apparently perpetually unlocked, I guess that's moot). I've actually stopped even trying to keep track of the rules once people started exploding when they weren't angel material or when they started appearing in heaven in meatsuits. The notion that 2 angels can inhabit one meatsuit was put forward earlier, but I assumed it was not referring to the arc Angels, and I was obviously wrong. My fear is that Cas will turn out to be more than he appears ( although I can't think of an explanation for that one).

I don't know what JC has planned to resolve this, and honestly have little faith anymore but it would be nice if both the darkness and Luci got sent back to the cage, maybe attached to eachother since "becoming one" seems to be a theme this year. No way is Cas gonna be killed. I do like how Misha is playing MP Luci but bored Luci is as irritating as bored Crowley. Here's hoping we get to real menace, horror or just some real bad assery soon.
Don't know why Dean is reluctant to believe Cas said yes, maybe he's finally getting a little faith (which could be good or bad) which appears to be another theme this season.
Anyway, outside of some inconsistencies , the episode moved along quickly had some good action, some humor, some discovery, heartbreak, it was a pretty good hour well produced. And, maybe God will recharge the hand of God so might not be gone for good.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-18 15:45
The show has played a fast and loose with some of this but here goes

Demons can possess anyone by force but can be expelled with the appropriate ritual, except for very powerful demons such as Knights of Hell. In some cases, a human can wrest control back from the demon for a period of time, but this is very difficult (Bobby in 5.01, John in 1.22, etc.)

Angels require consent but that consent can be the result of coercion (e.g. I'll kill your spouse or child if you don't let me possess you). Once an angel possesses a human, the human can expel them if they are "in control". However, angels can bury a human in their own mind, tucking them away in a corner so they aren't necessarily aware they are even possessed. Gadreel did this to Sam when he was sharing Sam's meat suit and decided to take control. However, Sam was unaware he was possessed at the time until Crowley also possessed him and told him. Once Sam found out, he was able to fight Gadreel, take control and expel him. However, what isn't clear is if a person knows they are possessed, can they expel the angel at any time or can the angel fight and prevent it. That isn't entirely clear and TPTB might have done this on purpose to give themselves some flexibility in the future.

Things get a little more complicated with archangels. Up until the point that Lucifer possessed Castiel, archangels required specific vessels (a bloodline thing as Michael put it). It looks as though archangels are a lot rougher on their human vessel, leaving them in even worse shape that demon or angel possessed vessels. This was clear in Season 5 when Lucifer's "improvised" vessel Nick deteriorated as the season progressed. Raphael also left one of his vessels catatonic.

The tricky part now is you have Castiel, an angel is full possession of a human vessel (Jimmy, who's soul is in heaven) being possessed by the archangel Lucifer. We are left to assume that the bloodline/speci fic vessel thing doesn't matter because Castiel is an angel possessing an empty vessel and doesn't have to worry about the vessel deteriorating or exploding (which has happened when angels possess willing humans that aren't fit for possession). The question is whether Castiel could eject Lucifer; I'm not entirely sure; we did see Castiel temporarily take control when Lucifer was killing Sam. The question of whether he could eject him is still up in the air because Castiel doesn't want to eject him; he thinks Lucifer is their best shot at stopping Amara.

As far as Dean goes, I think he's in denial and thinks Castiel couldn't do something that stupid; guess he underestimated Castiel :):)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-18 15:49
Castiel isn't strong enough to expel Lucifer. The only reason why Sam could expel Gadreel was because Gadreel was still damaged from the fall. I don't think any other human (Jimmy included) has ever been able to expel the possessing angel. Demons are different. Demons don't need permission but they can be exorcised from the host. Even though Sam could take possession of Lucifer for a moment he couldn't expel him and even if he could he didn't want to. Lucifer doesn't need Sam to achieve his goal with Amara whatever that is. He only needs Dean. He can't possess Dean because Dean would never allow it. So he will use Cas until he does whatever it is he is going to do or until the Winchesters figure out a way to separate the two. Now that may be canon busting.

The bunker isn't warded against angels because then Cas couldn't enter. I'm sure that will be remedied shortly. Dean has a cool new symbol now they can use. Monsters in Purgatory have souls there is no canon stating that they don't. The only beings in the SPN universe that we know of that are souless are angels and those whose souls have been removed from them.

I'm sure someone will shoot holes in my theories but that is how I understand it so far.

Njspnfan I think explained it better.
Dana
# Dana 2016-02-18 16:12
Ah, but I refer to the alpha vamp in season 6 who stated that if one has a soul you would go to either heaven or hell but if you had no soul (as Sam did not) then you would go to purgatory, implying that the 2 did not mix. Also, Crowley was told he had no soul in a later season, yet when they tried to cure him he would have apparently had a soul. The soul rules are convoluted too and statements are not rules so I seem to do better at assuming the actual rules are what has been shown and not what some character stated. So, technically while Cas said the Angels have not been on earth for 2k years, it doesn't make it a fact. I was hoping they would use Balthazars statement that there are no rules anymore to explain away the current inconsistencies in the rules.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-18 17:55
he didn't exactly say that; the Alpha Vamp said that Purgatory contained the souls of monsters - And it is filled with the soul of every hungry thing like me that ever walked this earth.

As far as what Castiel said about angels roaming the earth, we know that angels were under strict orders not to take human vessels (young Uriel - 1970's time travel episode). This was at a time when Michael was running heaven; things may have been corrupt, but they were orderly. Since Castiel was part of the garrison that watched over earth, I think it's reasonable to think he would have good first hand knowledge of this. Of course, we know that some angels did break the rules (Gabriel, the father of the nephilim in S8).
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-18 19:53
Thank you njspnfan, Cheryl, and Dana. Your insights really helped me understand the canon/retcon better. I really appreciate it.
Dana
# Dana 2016-02-18 20:54
You are quite right, after saying that Souls are predictable, when they die they either go up or down, he then says this line about the souls of freaks. The rule is apparently less about the Soul and more about how the soul is contained (by man or monster). Thanks for keeping me on my toes.
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-19 04:41
Cheryl sorry to blow a hole in one of your theories, but Dean can't use that knew symbol It needs to be bound to a person their heart and blood. If the warding ever needed to be removed whomever is carrying the symbol will need to die. Check out the scene again in the sub where the Delphine is telling Dean to kill her.
Also wondering this percific warding must have been stopping Lucifer from entering the sub. Delphine knew nothing of angels, only evil. So if Cas was not possessed and strong enough could he have boarded the sub. ?

May I add some interesting trivia Delphine Name meaning In French the meaning of the name Delphine is: Dolphin. Derived from the Greek name. Famous bearer: a thirteenth-cent ury French saint.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-19 10:23
Maybe Lucifer couldn't pass through because of the MOC?

I don't think death would stop Dean from using a protection spell. But he does have enough on his plate right now.
E
# E 2016-02-19 13:56
I am not sure monsters have souls, that's why they go to purgatory.... not heaven (for pure souls) or hell (where souls are corrupted). Crowley also has no soul as disclosed when he tried to buy Kevin at that auction thingie ......season 7?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-19 14:57
As Njspnfan said the alpha vamp explained that monsters souls go to purgatory. Some monsters were once human, i.e. vamps, werewolves, shapeshifters etc. and some like Levi's and chupacabra's might not have been human. Those souls should go somewhere and purgatory seems to be the dumping ground for leftovers.

We still don't know what Crowley is. He doesn't fit with any conventional pattern. Lucifer called him "my old friend" and Crowley and Naomi seemed to know each other from "Mesopotamia" so maybe a fallen angel? Hopefully sometime before the show ends we will finally find out what he is.
E
# E 2016-02-19 16:36
True, I forgot about the Alpha Vamp's statement about Monster souls. Yeah... I wonder if there is a way to work Fergus McLeod's "sold his soul for a few inches below the belt" into Luci's "old friend" and Naomi's "tryst in Mesopotamia." Not sure how they are going to rectify those two ideas seeing as how old Fergus was pretty concerned with this mortal bones. I'm not sure how 300 year old corrupted soul Fergus can be inside Vessel Crowley and still be an old friend from Mesopotamia with no soul and red eyes. What the heck is he? I hope that they come up with something very clever to pull it all together, assuming of course that they understand that it needs straightening out to begin with.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-22 14:10
I was a little unclear about the Dean thing; at first Lucifer said he needed Dean to deal with Amara, then he turns around later and tries to kill him with the Hand of God. Unless, by needing Dean he meant traveling back in time to get the Hand of God in the first place. And, if Lucifer threatened to harm Dean, wouldn't Amara sense that because of her link to Dean? For that matter, why would Lucifer need the Hand of God to kill a Winchester; he's an archangel and can just snap his fingers.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-23 06:55
Lucifer allows his anger, frustration, superiority, pride and aggravation to get the best of him now and again. Clearly he hates mankind. It obviously really gets under his craw anytime that he has to lower himself to have to be around the Winchesters. These inferior beings not only beat him at his game the last time but they were also the reason for his return to the cage. Continued imprisonment courtesy of the hairless apes. As far as he knew, he wasn't ever getting out. So when he told Sam he was going to kill him and let Dean return to a gut covered MOL library he meant it. Remember he was still going to play the part of Cas, saying that he couldn't talk Sam out of the soul charge...and then Cas ruined that for him. Plan B? Lucifer knew he had to still go back and retrieve the Hand. Maybe due to the warding disintegrating off her and the split seconds left all he could do was lay his hands on Dean knowing he was holding the Hand because otherwise it makes no sense. Why bring bro back when he's fully aware that Sam's waiting and the cats out of the bag. Once Dean learns what is happening he can kiss goodbye any cooperation he was counting on from him. So he returns and at that point Lucifer foolishly gave into his anger. It was his own fault his plan was in shambles because of his bragging/attemp ting to kill Sam and not being able to control Cas but now he has the Hand of God and Is done lowering himself to being around these inferior humans. Two birds one stone - or one Hand. ;) Alas, his most powerful weapon turns out to be a one and done, he's lost his strategic advantage to get close to Amara - all in all not a great demonstration of this A game he was chiding Sammy about.. No wonder he was pissed. Then as if all that's not enough what is the elder Winchesrter doing? Being a smart mouth. After the day poor Luci had can you blame him for wanting to kill him? ;)
E
# E 2016-02-19 13:50
Quote:
Can Cas expel Luci at any time? If so, wouldn't Luci know that is something Cas can do - so why is he so eager to kill off Sam, his true vessel? Makes S5 feel like a moot point.
As far as I understand it Cas SHOULDN'T be able to eject Luci, and if he does so later in the season Imma gonna be pissed. As Gadreel stated multiple times in season 9 (and pretty clearly, IMO) is that a vessel can only reject an angel if the vessel's consent was coerced or dubious in some way, or if the Vessel is not even aware that they are in fact a vessel as was the case with Sam. Gadreel was basically hiding inside Sam, and took control over him repeatedly without his knowledge. Sam's conscious consent to allow Gadreel to take him was non-existent. Gadreel made it pretty plain that what he and Dean were doing was pretty shady (if completely necessary) and that if Sam found out he could force Gadreel out thus putting his life in danger, which was Dean's fear. That was my understanding of things. So, given this set up then NO Cas should not be able to force Luci out; Cas gave his consent knowingly and willingly. Tuff nuggies to him. It was a dumb decision. They'll probably change it now though, in a bad and canon bashing retcon, because Carver doesn't seem to care much about continuity. He cares more about easy fixes to plot problems rather than finding a way to make it work given what has come before. That's why Carver's era will never match up to Kripke's era IMO. Now that Andrew Dabb seems to be handling a lot of this kind of continuity as new head writer this year there has been a marked improvement in canon integrity and continuity. I only hope that continues. I am worried that if painted into a corner that the writers will take the easy way out. I guess we'll see.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-19 15:02
I will have to go back and watch those episodes but Gadreel seemed to indicate that Sam could eject him because Gadreel was too weak from the fall. Otherwise Sam wouldn't have been able to. After Crowley tortured Gadreel presumably he became incapacitated enough for Sam to eject him. Cas can't eject Lucifer because Lucifer is a fully powered arch angel and Cas is not. At least that is what I understood.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-19 16:08
I had a different take on it than you or E. I thought Gadreel indicated that his own physical weakness could enable Sam to eject him, but in Road Trip, when he was in Sam's head he also said to Sam "you're not strong enough" to eject Gadreel. IMO that implied that the vessel's strength of will also had to be sufficient to eject the angel. One reason it seemingly had never been done before is that it seemed from Jimmy's description that the vessel himself is only somewhat aware of the goings on. So why would a vessel ever decide that he wanted his meatsuit back? If they were devout enough to agree to walk away from their mortal life, presumably they had committed to it for eternity.Moreov er, why would a vessel even know that he/she COULD revoke consent? Sam only knew because Crowley told him. And I believe even Crowley intimated that it would require strength of will to do it. So I think it's a bit muddled. Maybe it comes down to a battle of wills between the angel and the vessel, presuming that the vessel even knows that he can actually eject the angel. And ejecting an archangel should be well nigh impossible given their awesome power.
E
# E 2016-02-19 16:41
I dont' know... it seems like retcon. It was pretty clear before season 6 that the 'permission' of the vessel was absolute. Now they are saying that if you really dont' wanna, you don't hafta. Boo. Jimmy said being a vessel was like being strapped to a comet so he clearly remembered something, and Sam clearly remembered killing Kevin, so they weren't totally sequestered or unaffected by being an angel vessel. I was pretty sure that Gadreel told Dean that Sam could eject him because of the dubious nature of the consent that he gave. I'll have to go back and look at the transcripts.
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-19 17:15
Are we still supposed to assume that Sam is Lucifer's one true vessel in the whole entire history of the world? This was my understanding, right up until Luci tried to kill Sam. What's up with that?
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-22 21:36
Who knows! It appears that no one even remembers that Sam or Dean are "true vessels" any more. Boo.
E
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-22 21:36
Quote:
Without his acceptance, Sam can eject me at any time, especially with me so weak. And if Sam does eject me, he will die.
Found it! Took me long enough. It was my understanding given what Ezekeal/Gadreel said it was the fact that he did not truly have Sam's "acceptance" and that's what made him vulnerable to being expelled... more so than being weak; his weakness would mean that he could't put up any sort of resistance.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-23 07:22
Nice work E! But I still think the show muddled this a bit with the references to Gadreel's weakness, and the comments by both Gadreel and Cas as to whether Sam was "strong enough" to eject Gadreel. The show does love to keep these things blurry to allow for greater flexibility in the plotting, but it is very frustrating. I like nice, hard-and-fast rules and parameters!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-24 20:56
And I think that they are really playing with that now, bring up Cas and his maybe wanting to "expel" lucifer. I don't like it. Cas said 'yes.' Own it dude.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2016-02-18 17:02
I can't believe that after all this time they're still telling creative stories. Yes, we have done time travel at least twice, but this was quite good. I loved Dean in his denim shirt. Did anyone else feel badly for Crowley-our little doggie.:( ?
Shante
# Shante 2016-02-19 08:34
....*speechless *...
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-18 17:53
...
edatur
# edatur 2016-02-19 13:16
Casifer was lying about what was needed to get Dean and himself on (and off) the submarine. When making the requisite potion, he noted that he was missing one ingredient -- the power of an archangel. Since Lucifer is an archangel, there should have been no problem with the blocking sigil and so on. He was knowingly throwing Dean into danger, not himself, and particularly if the
"Hand of God" had to be retrieved by innocent Dean or devious Lucifer, who did not want to shake the "Hand" at all, one assumes!
E
# E 2016-02-19 14:03
Here's a question.... if Luci can so easily time travel then why did they need Dean to go back in time to get the HoG anyway? Why didn't Casifer just pop back there himself and get it? He could have just smited anyone who got in his way, or made himself invisible or wiped the memory of anyone who saw him? What was the point of Dean doing this in the first place?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-19 16:18
OK, now that is a good question. Maybe because the brothers don't have enough trust in Cas's people skills to be sure that he could learn from the crew or Delphine where the HOG was?
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-22 06:23
That didn't or havn't sent Cas on this sort of mission on his own before - have they. ?? They only send Cas on his own for shopping ingredients ?? He didn't fetch the Phoneix Ash ok he was at war and busy but they didn't send him then either.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-22 21:38
But he can time travel, he's done so before, and so had other angels who had even changed major events just for fun, so why couldn't Casifer just zip back on his own to get the HoG? The Dean time travel thing makes no sense.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-23 07:12
If Casifer had gone back on his own he couldn't have gotten through due to the wardings. Sam would have then had to come up with the spell. Spell could be cast only by Casifer giving up his cover or the soul touch. Would Dean have been okay with that? So say the spell is cast and Casifer shows up on the sub. Would that also have eliminated the sigil bound to her? They were still under attack, set to sink in an hour's time. Would she have trusted him? Cas doesn't have the MOL history or knowledge that Sam and Dean do and that was what made her decide to help. If she didn't believe him could she have used the Hand against him by that point? He didn't even know what it looked like - would he have felt it and known where it was hidden? Gah. Now I understand why Show wise they didn't go that way...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-19 16:15
Quote:
When making the requisite potion, he noted that he was missing one ingredient -- the power of an archangel.


But that was only after his attempt to get on failed because of the warding, about which he'd been unaware. And at first when Sam was describing what was needed for the potion, Casifer was still pretending to be Cas, so he was going through the pretense that he would try anyway even if he lacked an archangel's power, on the off-chance that it would work. Only after Sam volunteered his soul did Casifer come clean about being Lucifer, and at that point I think he was going to power his attempt to get on the sub with Sam's soul rather than with the potion simply for the sheer joy of blowing Sam apart. That was my take on it, anyway.:)
E
# E 2016-02-19 16:46
Yeah, that's how I saw it too. He didn't know about the warding (and another question? Why was the sub warded against Angels when no one knew that they even existed or was that an unforseen side effect of the special warding that was Delphine?) and so got bounced out and was trying to maintain his "I am Thursday's Angel Cas" until Sam pushed enough to get him to come clean. I think Casifer just got tired of the charade and came clean through pure impatience. And I think samandean is right, Luci decided to use Sam's soul rather than his own arc angel powers for the sheer hell of it (pun!) and to stick it to Sam for ditching him at the prom.
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-22 06:20
Delphine said to Dean at the table that the warding was to protect her and the HOG from Supernatural enemies I took that to mean Lucifer he being a fallen angel and the supreme king of hell wouldn't get through the warding. If it was Castiel the Angel he may have got through the warding Good Cas vs Bad Cas/Lucifer
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-19 17:24
I always saw it this way....I always believed that God planted the notion that the boys were the true vessels of Michael and Luci because God always knew the boys would be the ones to stop the Apocalypse. They had to be born. So in retrospect, given that the boys did stop the Apocalypse, I no longer feel that the whole vessel issue is truly valid. I think Luci might think he has to have Sam, but in reality, at this point, Luci can enter anyone he sees fit.
Didi
# Didi 2016-02-19 17:33
I'm not sure about your theory that Luci can enter pretty much anyone. If that's the case, then why was Nick deteriorating when Luci was using him as a vessel?
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-19 17:38
i'm talking about now. Sam and dean were the true vessels yes, but I always believed that little nugget was planted by God, because God knew that Sam and dean would stop the Apocalypse. They did. Now though, I don't think Sam or dean are still truly vessels.....the y did their job as far as stopping the Apocalypse. I'm not so sure that luci needs Sam as much as he wants him or wanted him. I also kind of think the Apocalypse was a test....which the boys passed ...to ready them for their true mission.....the Darkness.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-02-20 03:25
The Darkness is not their true mission , her release was a result of actions taken by the brothers stemming from Dean,s MOC it was not a intended battle . The Apocalypse was predicted for 1000,s of years Sam was born to be Lucifers vessel that does not change because Castiel was stupid enough to say yes .

I know this show muddy,s the waters like no other but the whole Lucifer vessel thing is whatever suits at the time . They wanted Cas to have a role and so lets give him Lucifer whether it makes sense or not.
Russ
# Russ 2016-02-22 01:04
Hey folks, I have a stupid-headed numpty cannon type question. Also, allow me to pre-apologise if it's already discussed in this thread. I skimmed through it, but you all talk, a lot :P I may have missed it.

For whatever reason (maybe me not paying enough attention), I was always under the impression that when someone does that blood sigil thingy that zaps the Angels out of the room, that it sent them back to Heaven.

Does that mean Sam just zapped Lucifer back into Heaven? How does that work?

If it doesn't send Angel's back to Heaven, where does it send them? If it's not Heaven, then why can't they simply teleport immediately back to the same place?

Anyways, as for the episode itself ... loved it. I could have watched a double-episode of that story.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2016-02-22 01:55
I think Cas was blasted all over the US when he did it and I think they haven't said anywhere that heaven is the place they go. I think they are usually blasted even further as they take time to get back from where ever it takes them.

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-22 07:24
Quote:
I skimmed through it, but you all talk, a lot :P
Guilty as charged!:)

Quote:
as for the episode itself ... loved it.
Not one little quibble or F bomb? I'm shocked. :o

As far as the sigil, they never said heaven was the destination, and it's always been the case that it takes the angel awhile to return. It would be a pretty useless tactic if the angel could instantly zap back, so maybe a component of the sigil is that it temporarily incapacitates the angel from returning.

Pithy enough for you Russ?:)
Russ
# Russ 2016-02-23 06:12
No f-bombs. :D I'm maturing. Mum had me tested.

My only quibble is it wasn't long enough. Far too many episodes I can't wait until they're over, but every now and then they drop a little gem that could really have been better served as a two-parter. This was one of those episodes. Not because they didn't tell the story well enough, but because there was plenty of room for a deeper look at what was offered. And you know they're never going to come back to. Maybe we'll get an off-hand reference next episode, or next season, but that's it.

That's a shame this show continues to deal it's viewers. All the garbage filler episodes, and the random breaks and hiatuses, they can't put in a little extra effort and string a few of those B, C, and even D-grade plot-lines together?

The recent Alex/Claire/Jod i episode was a perfect example. Alex's PTSD and Jodi's struggle raising the girls could have been sprinkled throughout a few episodes prior, rather than truncated into one episode. A phone call or two from Jodi. Maybe Sam mentioning to Dean some emails he got from Claire asking for help on some lore. Just something. Something that connects each episode beyond what they can cram into the "previously" montage.

With all these short breaks and hiatuses, I want a genuine back to back double episode. A mid-season mini movie if you will. Since Arrow follows the same calendar, let them do it too.

Before going into a break, rather than have 2 weeks of Arrow/Supernatu ral. Have the first week a double episode of Arrow - that is deliberately written as a 2 part episode for the event, then the following week, give us a double dose of Supernatural. They take seemingly random breaks mid-season, so an extra week without an episode won't matter.

This episode would have been a perfect candidate for that double feature.

I'm in rant mode. Sorry.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-23 07:18
Quote:
Before going into a break, rather than have 2 weeks of Arrow/Supernatural. Have the first week a double episode of Arrow - that is deliberately written as a 2 part episode for the event, then the following week, give us a double dose of Supernatural.


I love this idea, Russ, but I'm not sure this ep would have been the best candidate for it. I actually loved how tightly written and self-contained this ep was, and dragging out the scenes on the sub or even in the bunker would have sapped them of some of their energy and tension. I think a double ep would work better with a heavy myth arc ep, since those are the eps that usually leave me wanting more when the hour is over. But the one problem I see with this idea is the writing schedule. My understanding is that it takes many weeks to write each ep (or am I wrong about that?) which is why each writer only writes 4 or so scripts. And IMO the same writer should do the entire double ep, because on the rare two-parters that we've had, the differences in writing sometimes stand out, often in a negative way. The perfect example of this was this season's mid-season finale and then part 2 in Jan. The latter episode was MUCH better than the finale, IMO! But if the same writer (or writing team) crafted the double ep, would that wreak havoc with the rest of the writing schedule? If not, I would love to see a full 2 hour episode--unless it featured a certain teenage hunter.:)
Russ
# Russ 2016-02-23 22:53
A 2 hour Krissy centric episode, coming right up!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-24 08:08
:p:p:p:p:p:p times a million! ;)
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-24 20:02
Russ sadly the site is predominantly women and we don't talk alot we have extremly important and meaningful converstions LOL :):):):) which we each discuss very passionatly. After all this time I thought you would have got very experienced at how this is done and joined in LOL So join in or shut up. LOL Love you Russ - good to hear from you once in awhile a male perspective is welcomed and then discussed and blown off as a male thing. Joke xo :o:o
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-22 14:21
After Castiel took on 4 or 5 angels in 5.18 Point of No Return, carving the angel banishing sigil in his chest, he ended up bloody and unconscious on a shrimping boat off Delacroix. In 7.21, Castiel was banished to a dog track in Perth, Australia. Dean also questioned this in 9.01 when he asked, now that heaven is locked up, what would happen to the angels beating the crap out of him when he activated the angel banishing sigil.

Based upon what's been said on the show, it sounds as though it takes an angel some time to recover from being banished. And, nowadays angels (except Lucifer) can't teleport.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-22 21:45
They aren't supposed to be able to teleport but how did those bureaucratic angels get to that field and that Dean and Amara were in so fast? And how did Cas find Dean when he was sick on the side of the road so fast? I think TPTB forget that angel's can't teleport when it suits them.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-23 07:19
Maybe they can but only short distances? ;)
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-24 19:57
Dean had rung Cas earlier off screen Cas said so when kneeling beside Dean He was in his car if you look behind Cas you can see it. As for the 3 dumb angels, I'm assuming they didn't telaport because they came straight from heaven, they must be able to do that somehow. "Beam me down Scotty"
Russ
# Russ 2016-02-23 06:18
You're right.

For whatever reason, every time it's done, I think back to the first time we witnessed it when Annie did it in S4. From that moment, I simply assumed they were blasted back to Heaven, and that idea just stuck with me. Maybe I should be a little more attentive.

Like I said ... it was a stupid-head question :o
Jen
# Jen 2016-02-24 19:54
Yeah Perth Australia hahaaa It would or should have taken a week to get back from there LOL.