How about I get one point of contention out of the way first.  They named the episode “Into The Mystic” and couldn’t get the Van Morrison song?  I love that song!  It's actually one of my favorites, but I guess in a way I’m glad it wasn’t a killer song.  That might have ruined it for me.  However, given the MOTW, there was one song I ended up singing just as soon as the word was uttered: 

Stonehenge! Where the demons dwell
Where the banshees live and they do live well
Stonehenge! Where a man's a man
And the children dance to the Pipes of Pan

Yeah, I know, it was already used in season two’s “Simon Said.”   But it was kind of perfect, no?  Okay, no.

Anyway, when you get a midseason episode like "Into The Mystic," sometimes it’s good to just look at the forest from the trees, aka it's place in the overall scheme,  because looking deep at this plot doesn’t reveal much.  It wasn’t all that complex and did very little to move the overall arc forward.  As a matter of fact, in its construction, the episode was rather paint by the numbers.  There was a tie in to last week, which was important, and some lingering ramifications that were dealt with by the end of the hour, all bridging the standard investigation of another MOTW attack. In other words, it’s typical midseason filler. 

However, the word “filler” has bad connotations, and I didn’t think “Into The Mystic” was a bad hour.  No, overall it was well done.  It had its moments and was a good character story, but it didn’t get me all excited about the events to come either.   Aside from that the guest stars were very likeable, there were some good life’s lessons to be learned and we got resolution (sort of) to a long standing fan complaint, one that strangely didn’t need resolution.  Yeah, it helps and we are grateful that you thought of us show, but the attempt didn’t resolve as much as throw things out of sorts. 

15

The MOTW didn't have a song that caused people to die as much of a high pitched screech, one that only “the vulnerable” could hear.  So, right after the bloody teaser enter our “vulnerable” Winchester of the week, a sleepless Sam. He's having trouble with Lucifer's words and hasn't left the bunker in days.  But the real troubling sign, he’s cleaning his gun.  We all know from season seven that’s not a good thing!  Since there was a simple ghost case 15 minutes away though, they could take a little break from dealing with The Darkness and go help people.  By starting the episode with Sam a remarkable thing happened, the story was told from the Sam point of view.  It’s so rare to get a Sam POV, so I treasure these episodes.   We also didn’t get a full hour of “woe is me” emotional wreck Sam either.  He actually bonded with the people of the week.  He made a friend!  When asked if he was okay, he honestly answered (as we all figured, it was "no").  He even confessed to Dean the incident with Lucifer showing him things he forgot about and how much it affected him.   

The guest female characters of the week were amazing and each had a unique story, sort off.  Eileen survived the Banshee (Stonehenge!) attack that killed her parents as a baby because she was deaf.  Or her mother's spell made her deaf.  I couldn't figure out which.  So, she fell into the hunting life, which happens to be a perfect parallel to Sam's origin story.  Another similarity to Sam, her grandfather was a Men of Letters.  It’s about freaking time that Sam and Dean finally ran into a MOL legacy.  There should be tons of them out there, grandchildren of the fallen.  I’d like an episode someday where Eileen gets to visit the MOL bunker and read all about her grandfather and his contributions.  Heck, maybe even one of the cars in the garage was his. 

Mildred on the other hand was one open minded and lively senior citizen.  She knew she saw a monster kill at the senior village, which was all Sam needed to come to her, flat out tell her he and Dean weren't a FBI agents and they hunt monsters.  She didn't blink an eye at the picture of the Banshee and that gave her a reason to flirt with Dean for the rest of the episode.  Her reasoning for choosing Dean was absolutely the best, “I’m not much of a mountain climber anymore.”  Bwah!  That’s perfect. Yes, Dean was cougared for once.  Mildred found herself in the middle of the whole thing helping, even setting the trap that caught the Banshee and saving Dean's life.  Not bad for someone who spent her adult life in a Patsy Cline tribute band.  

04

Because of the Sam POV, that took our attention away from the real surprise, that our “vulnerable” victim was really Dean.  Unlike Sam, we hadn’t seen Dean struggling with anything too intense.  Time to guess again.  Mildred caught onto it, sensing that he was hurting for someone.  Practically pining.  “The heart wants what the heart wants.”  Hmm, curious.  Then there’s the end, when Sam is finally able to rest and it’s revealed that Dean is having his own sleepless nights.  So how strong is this urge and connection?  How heartsick is he really?  If a Banshee could see it and an old lady in a senior home, then it really must be getting bad.  Then there’s Dean actually telling Cassifer, but all evidence points to him underselling it there too.  Actually, the show is underselling it in general.

The one big nitpick I have is Sam’s guilt.  I get it, after his whole encounter with Lucifer, you better believe he should have been shaken to the guilt core.  That part makes sense to me.  One big question I asked in my reviews last season was what in the world drove Sam to risk the entire world just to save his brother?  I was honestly thinking it was the guilt from turning away from Dean after he was free of Gadreel’s possession and then finally swallowing his pride when his brother was dying in his arms in season nine.  But as Lucifer dug for the deep truth last week, turns out the tipping point was really season eight, when he hit that f***ing dog.  

Is that right?  I don’t blame Thompson for going there since Dabb set that precedence last week, but did have have to focus solely on that one incident?  I thought that Sam already earned forgiveness from Dean in “Sacrifice” when Dean opted not to close the gates of Hell to save his brother.  Sam was willing to die rather than not let Dean down again.  Why is that guilt lingering?  What about the guilt of telling Dean in “The Purge” that he wouldn’t save him if the circumstances were the same? Or didn’t he let him down when Metatron killed him?  Was the “I lied” comment an acceptable apology?  Wasn’t the driving force behind removing the Mark of Cain so that Dean wouldn’t become a demon again, the one thing they hate more than anything, because Sam couldn’t bear to go through that again?  So yes, while I felt Sam’s pain over the whole Luci situation, I’m still not buying that the true reason of his sadness and pain is because he didn’t look for Dean between season seven and eight. 

s11e11 548 bro talk

While I’m very much enjoying the soul searching and personal growth of Sam’s because of his remorse of letting The Darkness free, and I did love his apology, it all felt so unnecessary to me.  Lucifer chided him last week for not closing the gates of Hell and letting out the Darkness, so why didn’t Sam go there?  That would have had more impact to me.  By going to that point in season 8, it’s almost like the writers are trying to say they screwed up.  Yeah, you did, but that was so three years ago.  

As for Castiel, I don’t have a lot to say about that because nothing much happened.  I'm not sure why he was in the bunker and don't care just yet.  We didn’t find out what happened to Crowley, which has me a bit worried, and we got one big piece of continuity, an angel was able to recognize he was Lucifer.  A now dead angel.  I liked watching Lucifer be carefree and enjoy the simple things, even though I know it won’t last.  His interaction with Dean was inconsequential at best, but it was still fun to watch.

The Red Headed Monster 

I’ve been watching the return of The X-Files and positively loving it (yes, even the first ep back).  The episode that aired this past Monday reminded me of something so poignantly, Supernatural sucks at “show, don’t tell.”  We really don’t understand how powerful this inner struggle is with Dean and this episode was the first real evidence.  However, that evidence is primarily physical clues.  There’s no deep emotional connection to what he’s feeling.

In this most recent episode of The X-Files, both Mulder and Scully FINALLY addressed their feelings of loss over their son William.  Yeah, they talked about it with each other, but the real suckerpunch came when both imagined what it would have been like to raise their son.  Scully’s sequence had her joyfully taking him to his first day of school, then watching in horror as he turned into an alien.  Mulder visualized watching TV with him and shooting off rockets, both having a real sweet bonding moment, until he saw the horror of his son being abducted like his sister.  Both these montages were emotionally and sentimentally powerful with that right amount of shock at the end for maximum impact.  They also didn’t take away from the main story at all and really enhanced it.   

Wouldn’t it have been cool to see a scene like this with Sam experiencing the thought of rescuing Dean in Purgatory only to have reality hit, and/or then Dean imagining sweet times with Amara before becoming her eternal slave?  Something memorable to show exactly what they’re feeling.  I get that isn’t easy to do with a 23 episode season, but the show often lacks those aspects of storytelling that could be better.  For me, that “brotherly chat” at the end of the episode as the emotional wrap up scene is too cliché by this point in the series.   

s11e11 597 Dean last shot

Other Thoughts


Big kudos though from me for choosing a song from Warren Zevon’s swan song album ‘The Wind” for the closing montage, "Prison Grove."  
It’s a rather powerful album. He recorded it when he found out he only had months to live from lung cancer.  

So Sam doesn't want to think about retirement?  He thinks they might be dead before then?  He's not wrong but still, kind of a downer, wasn't he?  Could Dean be thinking long term because of Amara or was he just being cute?  Either way, I loved Dean considering the idea.

I wish Sam did know sign language so he could blush when those ladies were signing about how hot the boys were.  A comedic moment lost! 

Sam has a keepsake box now?  The brochure of the senior home earned a spot?  Huh.  I guess having a home does make a difference.  I never pegged Sam to be the sentimental type.  Maybe he's doing it more because he's a legacy and their history should be preserved too.  Any thoughts on this?  

Overall grade, oh, I waffle between a B- and C+. I’m just happy that this week’s filler remembered the overall plot, and Thompson again proves he’s awesome at dialogue.  Anyone that can make a random conversation work about who is the better Golden Girl during an important conversation of exposition wins with me.  BTW, it’s Rose.  Betty White rules all.

Comments  

cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-30 00:40
I really enjoyed this episode. A lot. For a stand alone MOTW the Banshee was creepy, the guest stars were perfect (they weren't cartoon characters), the brothers had real conversations (and yes Rose all the way for me too), Robbie Thompson made what I would assume was the best attempt his bosses would let him get away with at putting the f***ing dog out of our misery and no one got pissed at each other for any reason. I tend to love RT's scripts anyway but this one for what it was, was another good one for me. The final scene between Sam and Eileen was not scripted. John Badham told Jared and Shoshannah to make something up. They came up with a real moment between new friends and potential allies. I hope we see more of her. I like that thought of Eileen visiting the Bunker and learning about her heritage. Also since Mildred mentioned twice about her ghostly experience I hope we get to see more of her as well.

I read in another review that the box is the one from Home. It looks like there are keepsakes from both brothers in there. Superwiki has a full list of items.
MaryEllen
# MaryEllen 2016-01-31 17:54
Okay, for some lame reason my tablet is not letting me view comments but hopefully someone can answer this question and I will be able to read it.

I have NEVER understood what the issue was with Sam not looking for Dean - he had absolutely no reason to suspect that Dean was in purgatory. Big explosion as Dick Roman explodes, then Dean *and* Castiel are gone. Why wouldn't Sam think, since Dean vanished with Cas, that he had died and gone to Heaven? There's no reason for him to think anything else - Dean died in the line of duty so Sam retired, just like Dean did with Lisa. I don't understand why the answer to why didn't Sam look was that he had no reason to think Dean was anywhere other than heaven.
disgruntle viewer
# disgruntle viewer 2016-01-31 18:26
"What is permissible for Jove is not permissible for an ox". The only difference is in the attitudes of the brothers. One: Why didn't you try to be happy?
Quote:
SAM
So you never even tried, huh?
DEAN
Tried?
SAM
To go live a life...after. You do remember you promised that, right?
DEAN
Yeah, I remember.
SAM
So, why didn't you try?
DEAN
What makes you think I didn't?
SAM
'Cause look at you. Look at this. You're exactly the same.
DEAN
Yeah, you're probably right.
A long pause.
DEAN
I was with them for a year—Lisa and Ben.

The other: How did you dare try to be happy without me?
DEAN
Quote:
Yeah, I might have lied, but I never once betrayed you. I never once left you to die. And for what, a girl? You left me to die for a girl?
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-31 19:25
8.10 Torn and Frayed
DEAN You know what, man? I got this. You go.
SAM What?
DEAN Don't you have a girl to get back to?
SAM Yeah. I guess I do. Um... Since when are you on the Amelia bandwagon?
DEAN I don't know. I'm just tired of all the fighting. [He takes a beer out of the refrigerator.] And, you know, maybe I'm a little bit jealous. I could never separate myself from the job like you could. Hell, maybe it's time for at least one of us to be happy.
SAM What, you being such a big hugger and all? She does make me happy, and she could be waiting for me if I went back. I'd be a very lucky man if she was. But now... with everything staring down at us, with all that's left to be done... I don't know.
DEAN Huh.
SAM Yeah.
DEAN Well, I do know this – whatever you decide, decide. Both feet in or both feet out. Anything in between is what gets you dead.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 19:35
I remember that. But what was said earlier was also said. It was unjust and cruel, I can and have already said that it can be explained by Dean's PTSD, but it doesn't make Dean's attitude till 8.10 right. Moreover, he repeated the same list of greatest Sam's sins in 8 season finale, when Sam was dying, not a great speech to a dying man, don't you think? Dean's words mad? Sam's feel a failure, not Sam's actions.
Didi
# Didi 2016-01-30 01:06
Thank you for the great review. I always enjoy your perspective and often find myself nodding my head. Although I liked this ep more than you did. Probably due to the strong Sam POV.

I just want to touch on the looking/not looking thing. Which I previously said I wouldn't do because its been debated over and over by people way more articulate than me. And while I have nothing of value to contribute to the conversation that hasn't previously been said, since this episode went there I want make a request of Mr Carver.

Mr. Carver, why is Sam apologizing for your mistakes? I never blame the character for bad writing and I really wish that you would stop blaming Sam for your bad writing and your screw up. Having Sam apologize for the shitty not looking storyline is insulting. Note: we understand Sam -probably better than you do because we actually watch the show - and Sam does not owe anyone an apology. The year of the dog is on you and you alone. If you feel the need to apologize, go on ET, or Conan, or Comic Con, or social media and say I am so sorry that I screwed up so profoundly. Stop trying to incorporate your apology to the fans into Sam's POV. It's not helping.

On the bright side, IMO, Cheryl posted elsewhere on the site that Carver's new pilot was picked up by CW today. I really hope this means that SPN will have a new showrunner. Berens? Dabb? We've all been asking what's going on in the writers room, with Sam suddenly getting a POV for the first time since Carver took over...my guess is he was likely not around much, with the new show occupying much of his time this season. Bye JC. You won't be missed. At least not by me.

I'm encouraged that the writers stopped drinking solely from the vat labeled Dean Cool Aid. I think promoting Andrew Dabb to head writer this year helped (future showrunner?) For the first time in years it feels the show is about both brothers. I'm excited.

Loved both Mildred and Eileen. Loved that Sam had a conversation with someone not named Dean (although I've been loving the recent conversations between the bros). And she made it through the day in one piece. Since Eillen's a legacy, is she entitled to a key to the bunker like Sam and Dean? I really hope we see her again. Sammy, when shit hits the fan in the latter half of the season with Dean's Amara dilemma, don't call a demon for help. Reach out to Eileen instead.

The Amara storyline bores me. They need to pick it up, which I think they will do towards the latter half. We've got filler eps coming up (Jodi, the Sub, the wrestling ep, some others I'm sure) after that, I think Dean comes clean to Sam and all hell breaks loose. Sammy, please, no crossroad deals, no deals with any demon or Supernatural being of any kind. Please. I think Amara will have Dean so twisted by latter half of the season that I'm actually concerned that he will choose her. Of course he'll come to his senses, but I think Sammy will be in the big empty by then. Hope I'm wrong.

I probably worry too much. I'm sure everything will turn out fine. Right?
Alice
# Alice 2016-01-30 12:34
Quote:
On the bright side, IMO, Cheryl posted elsewhere on the site that Carver's new pilot was picked up by CW today. I really hope this means that SPN will have a new showrunner. Berens? Dabb? We've all been asking what's going on in the writers room, with Sam suddenly getting a POV for the first time since Carver took over...my guess is he was likely not around much, with the new show occupying much of his time this season. Bye JC. You won't be missed. At least not by me.
Frequency was only picked up for a pilot. It hasn't gone to series. If it does get picked up, Carver will probably do what Julie Plec and Greg Berlanti have been doing, be the main show runner for both shows but have trusted lieutenants handle the day to day. In SPN's case, Andrew Dabb has been running the writer's room this year and Phil Sgriccia has been in charge of the production aspects. So honestly, things wouldn't change all that much. You've already noticed this change this season when Andrew Dabb took over for Adam Glass in the writer's room. Much better.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-30 13:54
I am glad you clarified who would be in charge and who would be head writer in that situation Alice. That makes me feel like maybe the change this season and the return to something resembling balance in the show might become a permanent thing. : )
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-30 14:07
As in several more seasons? I would be so on board for that.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-30 18:44
At this stage from week to week would suit me :)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-30 17:55
Quote:
Andrew Dabb has been running the writer's room this year and Phil Sgriccia has been in charge of the production aspects: You've already noticed this change this season when Andrew Dabb took over for Adam Glass in the writer's room. Much better.
Is that what it is Alice? I figured you'd know more about this than anyone... I had also wondered if Bob Singer stepping down has made any kind of difference. I guess I hadn't realized that Glass was head writer..... that certainly sheds some light on a few things. No wonder thing were so lopsided. That man has such a "thing" for Dean and wrote Sam as thought he didn't especially like him, or even remembered he was there half the time. RT is better, but in the same vein. The change from 8/9/10 to 11 has been blatantly striking. They should have promoted Dabb AGES ago.
Gwen
# Gwen 2016-01-31 17:45
I too never realised that Adam Glass was head writer and, yeah, that explains so much about the writing for Sam these previous 3 seasons. This season is SO much better. I have been loving (and appreciating) every bit of the Sam pov this year so many many thanks Mr. Dabb.
vince
# vince 2016-02-01 17:32
Singer is still involved, he's just winding down on the day to day production stuff.
MollyMc
# MollyMc 2016-01-30 08:01
Quote:
Mr. Carver, why is Sam apologizing for your mistakes? I never blame the character for bad writing and I really wish that you would stop blaming Sam for your bad writing and your screw up. Having Sam apologize for the shitty not looking storyline is insulting. Note: we understand Sam -probably better than you do because we actually watch the show - and Sam does not owe anyone an apology. The year of the dog is on you and you alone. If you feel the need to apologize, go on ET, or Conan, or Comic Con, or social media and say I am so sorry that I screwed up so profoundly. Stop trying to incorporate your apology to the fans into Sam's POV. It's not helping.
^^^This!!!
sid
# sid 2016-01-30 09:00
Quote:
Quote:
Is that right? I don’t blame Thompson for going there since Dabb set that precedence last week, but did have have to focus solely on that one incident? I thought that Sam already earned forgiveness from Dean in “Sacrifice” when Dean opted not to close the gates of Hell to save his brother. Sam was willing to die rather than not let Dean down again. Why is that guilt lingering? What about the guilt of telling Dean in “The Purge” that he wouldn’t save him if the circumstances were the same? Or didn’t he let him down when Metatron killed him? Was the “I lied” comment an acceptable apology? Wasn’t the driving force behind removing the Mark of Cain so that Dean wouldn’t become a demon again, the one thing they hate more than anything, because Sam couldn’t bear to go through that again? So yes, while I felt Sam’s pain over the whole Luci situation, I’m still not buying that the true reason of his sadness and pain is because he didn’t look for Dean between season seven and eight.
Thank you for the review it was interesting and I too would have liked to see them do something like the dreams of William they had in the X files as like you I think it would have helped get in the guys heads more. As for example with the apology, I think it was more than just Carver and Co admitting they screwed up and fans didn't like it.

I think the idea was Sam taking responsibility for his part in the brothers strained relationship in seasons 8 and 9 and like it or not it, a lot of it begins at the not looking and snow balls from there. The apology in the last episode also ties into a lot of the character growth Sam's had this season. Now I am not saying Dean isn't responsible for his part in their relationship and Dean has said the not looking and the rest of it is in the past so he is over it, it just takes him a while but he says he is. But the apology itself was as much about Sam as the fans so I think it is kind of important to Sam himself said it out loud even though Dean didn't need to hear it, so Sam can grow. This season so far every time Sam says 'he' is responsible for letting Amara out compared to when Dean says 'they', and Sam says 'he' because he made a decision to go ahead and get rid of the mark even though he knew there would be consequences. But if you look at discussions about not looking, until this episode whenever someone says about Sam not looking he's always says 'we had an agreement' when he's responded and now he is saying 'he' should have looked, just like he says 'he' let out the darkness. It is a more rounded more, more in control Sam that is emerging.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-30 11:40
Dean may of had a role but it is not be acknowledged which is my biggest bug bear . Sam,s role is was it really necessary for us or him to traverse over the 'not looking' situation like it happened last week as if Sacrifice was not enough .
Sam in season 9 was a victim of situation not of his making the strain in their relationship was a product of that .

I do not need heartfelt violin musiced scenes from either of them and esp where Sam labours again how he has let Dean down but rather just a little recgonition that it has not been just him and few lines from Dean would not hurt.
sid
# sid 2016-01-30 12:14
I don't want to turn this into a Sam v Dean thing, if you don't mind.

Especially when I said the whole scene was really for Sam's journey and not really about Dean.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-30 12:34
Then do not turn into one. It was a comment based on my perspective from certain comments nothing more.

And frankly nothing I have not expressed before .
sid
# sid 2016-01-30 12:22
Because have you not noticed the anvils - Sam is told to get rid of Amara he watch people he love die and is saying that he is going back the original mission of saving people hunting things and not saving just each other. Billy told him that if the Winchesters die they go to the empty and there isn't coming back from that but she was as nice as pie to Dean, and Dean's connection to Amara. Not to mention he is now saying 'he' for decisions he made, even if he or others have gotten on his back about it.

Sam is becoming more controlled and emotionally independent of Dean , especially at point where we know Dean is connected to a big bad so we may be getting to the point where the Winchesters are in real danger again - Dean may have to risk a real death and Sam knows that is the best course of action.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-30 12:36
No disrespect I think I will leave it , not going to get into a unecessary argument.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-30 15:14
Nicely put Sid.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-30 15:17
Sorry, I was referencing your initial comment regarding Sam's growth.
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 08:02
Thank you.

In a lot of ways I think the writers have finally found their feet with giving Sam a POV. Usually it is fleeting or given as a big desperate push because he tends to have the plot device role too. Last season it seemed big and desperate because he was trying to be good enough to save Dean, but by tying it in with to the not looking now and his changing his reasoning from the agreement to 'I' should have looked it feels he has gotten past his inferiority complex that he has had before, you know when he told Bobby he was lesser than all of them or the whole speech in Scarifice to explain his actions and his dispair. Sure I get the idea that his going overboard in season 10 and tying it into the not looking may feel like a stretch for some fans but I feel a lot of the strained relationship can be traced from the reaction of both parties to that decision and the decision was Sam's even if there was an agreement.

But I do agree with Alice having a dream sequence where Sam wakes up from a sequence where even if he tried and failed to get Dean out of purgatory and that lead to them being on better terms and how Dean then didn't go on about the trials and Sam wouldn't have felt so inadequate compared to Benny and then Scarifice wouldn't have played out in the way it did, they would have gotten Metatron was playing a long con because he and Dean wouldn't have been distracted by the trials and Dean wouldn't have been so open to Gadreel then Kevin wouldn't have died and the mark wouldn't have happened etc etc.

Now I am not saying it is Sam fault all that happened, I'm not before anyone screams at me. What I'm saying it can be argued that the strained relationship between the two of them in the past three seasons caused a snowball effect that hurt a lot of people and Sam's decision not to look that was the start. The horse shoe nail so to speak. You now the rhyme

Quote:
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
But most importantly with Sam finally putting the not just looking but everything else to bed in his head, he is putting to bed his inferiority complex and taking control of all his decisions just like when he says he let out the Darkness. He isn't dwelling on them but accepting them so he can resolve them because he isn't trying to emotionally protect himself from his choices either which I think when he used 'we had an agreement' he was in part to do.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 08:56
Quote:
What I'm saying it can be argued that the strained relationship between the two of them in the past three seasons caused a snowball effect that hurt a lot of people and Sam's decision not to look that was the start.
Hi Sid. I understand what you're saying, and I believe that what you describe in the above statement is exactly what TPTB had in mind when they wrote the "not looking" plot. but the problem that Sam fans (well, this Sam fan anyway!) have with this idea is twofold. One, you can play the causal connection game and go even further back than S8, because it's still a bit ambiguous as to why Sam didn't look. He told Amelia that his world imploded when he lost Dean so he ran, which makes perfect sense in the context of everything that happened to him from Swan Song on. So for example you could argue that had Dean never had Death return Sam's soul to him, he would have functioned just fine as Soulless Sam and none of the ensuing events would have occurred. Because SS would not have given a crap that Dean was gone. Now of course Dean never would have let that happen, but my point is that you can play this game of going further back to find the causes of an event, but with each step back the causal connection weakens. And I think that's what is weak about the show establishing Sam's failure to look for Dean as the cause of everything that occurred in the last 3 seasons. So many things occurred after Sam's action (or inaction) that really trump what he did in terms of leading to MOC Dean, etc, such as Dean's decision regarding Gadreel. My knowledge of this is a bit rusty, but that is why, under the law, people are only liable for events that were reasonably forseeable results of their actions.
But the other problem with the show tracing everything that's happened back to S8 is that, while you may not blame Sam, the show has framed things in a way that suggests Sam is to blame. You are correct that it's in Sam's nature to feel that he is to blame, but the fact is that the show has cast Sam's actions in a negative, blameworthy light through the words of various other characters. And what is galling about this is that, as eilf points out below, Sam can never win because he is blamed when he doesn't save Dean and when he does save Dean. It is Sam's personal Kobayashi Maru!

All of that being said, I agree that Sam has undergone some amazing and welcome character development and growth this season, and I'm loving everything about it. But I hate that the show is trying to trace it all back to an OOC, ambiguously-exp lained decision by Sam from 3 years ago.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-31 11:48
hey samndean,

I don't think show has framed it so the blame is on Sam. I think show has framed it so Sam feels like he should feel blame. I still think there's a bigger picture here. As much as Kripke brought up the boys' issues, he never really dealt with resolving them. We know what they are, we've seen how it's affected the boys in negative ways, but I don't think any of the boys' personal issues regarding the way they see themselves has ever been resolved. Carver was a part of those early years, and he in fact has written many an episode in which we see these issues. Then Carver leaves and when he returns ...we're 7 full seasons in and the boys are still suffering from the same issues as they were before they left...so while we've seen an awesome story with heartbreaking and amazing acts that pull us in all directions, we haven't really seen the boys' emotional growth. They both still have issues unresolved since they were children. Given Carver came off a show called being human, I saw part of his goal in telling the story to include the boys' emotional growth...but these are the Winchesters after all, so that story will have to be told in a way that makes sense for a Winchester.

Carver's way of telling the story wasn't in your face obvious for lack of better words, sometimes the story was more subtle and I think he took the more psychological/a nalytical approach in telling the story. I don't think that this story has been one sided though. I don't see one brother being blamed while the other brother sparkles like the top of the Chrysler Building. :D

I do agree that in Carver's attempt to be vague, he has incited fandom rage instead of going for the possible reaction he was aiming for, but he never swayed from the way he was telling his story , so my guess is because the story wasn't done yet. It's not about the tree, it's about the entire beautiful forest.

I do agree that Carver's style of the double meaning is emotionally exhausting. I will go so far as to even agree it's not necessary all the time. I also agree that bits of information rather than full disclosure is something that should be used more carefully. For instance, the pact...I understand completely the need for it, and the why it would be made but Carver using the double meaning for this, I didn't think it necessary. My guess is that if it was more definitive than we wouldn't have gotten the drama we got. It was all in the wondering, which I do think Carver takes personal pleasure in doing to the fans. JMO of course. I also think a timeline for this agreement would've been nice...but then again, perhaps if we knew the precise when the pact was formed it would've taken away from the drama that was to unfold. But I do firmly believe that the pact was worded in such a way to mean two things on purpose. As I've noted, there has never been any precedence at any moment for an agreement to be made for them to not seek ea. other out if they were simply missing...but there is way too much precedence for an agreement to be made in which they would promise not to look for a way to bring the other back. And since Carver at no time had Sam say that they made an agreement not to look when they go missing...he simply said we had an agreement not to look...and that was it...the not looking can be seen as not looking for a way to bring them back. Given their blatant history, it seems more likely that this is the true meaning of the agreement. The very fact that Carver introduced the agreement from the start, and Sam's insistence on believing Dean was dead, it makes ,at least to me that Carver was implying that the promise was not to look for a way to bring the other back.

Now all the focus is on Sam right now, but I think it's important to remember Dean here as well. I don't think show was showing how dean is always right and sam wrong at all. As a matter of fact, I actually saw Dean to be wrong in the first half of season 8. I didn't think show perceived Dean's pov to be the right one at all. I thought show actually illustrated how wrong Dean's perspective truly was...and they did that up until a little slice of kevin, when cas literally told dean...you're wrong and you only see what you want. ...I think cas was the voice of the fandom in that moment.;)

Dean spent a year in what he referred to as God's armpit, yet he appreciated it. He found a calm. Basically it wasn't as awful for him as he made sam believe it to be.
Dean befriended a monster. Dean Winchester friends with a monster. That alone is cause for alarm...that something is truly wrong with him.
Dean comes out of purgatory changed, and not for the better by the way. He's hostile, he's still in kill mode and he brought with him a monster who spent the last half a century killing on a daily basis. He not only brought purgatory out from within himself, but he brought a piece of purgatory with him through benny. Benny was part of his connection to a place where Dean became the worst part of himself.
Dean's worst part of himself isn't about the fact that he killed, it's in the fact that he found a peace in it, calm in it...something that never would've happened if he had Sam with him...because Sam keeps dean human.
Dean came out of purgatory lying and hurting people...friend s and others alike. His words, thoughts and actions were cruel and hostile. So needless to say, Dean's pov isn't a positive one nor does it come close to even being right. The man had no qualms about killing Kevin's mother...I don't see Dean as rational at this point.
As a matter of fact, I saw Dean to be irrational up to and including Southern Comfort. And that's where it all hit the fan for Sam and Sam fans alike. But if you really listened to Dean's speech, it wasn't even about Sam..it was about him. This is confirmed one week later in a little slice of kevin.
Dean accused Sam of lying...but yet it was Dean who was lying to Sam, about benny, about purgatory, about Cas
Dean accused Sam of leaving him down there for a girl...but in essence it was Dean who left Cas and it was Benny he brought out and Cas he left behind. He admits this to cas. Plus it wasn't sam who left dean in purgatory...but cas left dean in purgatory....se e the play on words...see the double meaning...left. .the word left was used...but the meaning is different...cas abandoned dean in purgatory...dea n spent all that time looking for cas and then found out that cas left him on purpose....Dean took all his anger out on Sam. Cas wasn't there for him to take his true anger out on.
Dean keeps benny from Sam. why? benny is the exception to the monster rule is he not? after all Dean and he are friends. Isn't that it though? dean being friends with a monster. is that a red flag I see?:D Dean in any other circumstance would never have become friends with a monster...and if sam came out of purgatory and brought a monster out with him...how do you suppose dean would've reacted? Would dean have understood and thought sam to be of his right mind? would he have endeared himself to sam's monster friend and trusted him....no....do you know why I know this...because it happened with ruby...a different kind of monster...but very similar like circumstances.
Yet dean, though he knew he can rely on benny in purgatory and he even might have been right that benny wouldn't kill him topside, he didn't in fact trust benny....for if he did, then he really had no reason to hide him especially from sam.
as we all know, sam is smart. sam can get a read on people. sam doesn't jump to conclusions either, he does his due diligence. When he said he might have to be the one to kill benny someday, it's because he knows that dean might not be able to...just like sam didn't have it in him to kill amy. see sam does listen and acknowledge his brother..;) Sam didn't just go after benny, he had benny watched, because really, dean hadn't been in a state of mind since he got out of purgatory where he can fully be considered rational.
Once Dean was forced to release all his pent up anger regarding his own issues and when he is absolved of is own guilt by cas, dean no longer brings up the issue of not looking again. Granted sam threatened to leave if Dean didn't move on and that had some influence, but it wasn't until after his talk with cas that we see dean in a slightly more rational state of mind.
Dean telling sam in that coin induced rampage that noted benny being more of a brother...becau se he hadn't let him down was pure fantasy. Cas had let him down leaving him alone in purgatory. Benny couldn't let dean down because if he did, he wouldn't be able to get out of purgatory...and Sam, well Sam wasn't with dean at all...he wasn't there to keep dean human. he didn't get him out, so dean had ended up becoming the worst part of himself. So yes, there was resentment towards Sam in dean...sam didn't save dean from himself:(.
We still have Benny topside. Whether you like benny or not, one needs to really see benny for what he truly is...and that's a monster who spent over half a century in purgatory killing on a daily basis and admittedly killed humans topside before that....after all benny admitted so himself. he declared himself to be a liar and admitted to not being the teddy bear (insert sarcasm there) he is today. Benny did nothing wrong in the sense that he was what he was and never really claimed to be anything but.
Dean was the one who was wrong. Dean, who friended a monster, needed to believe that benny was different. he was the exception to dean's monster rule...after all dean is his friend. dean wouldn't just pick any monster...if dean is going to be friends with a monster, he's going to find the exception....oh how dean loves to swim in the river of denial.:p Dean insisted that benny was on the up and up, yet dean would either sneak off without sam or flat out leave him behind whenever there was a problem that benny was a part of. it would've been so simple for dean to have brought sam with him in citizen fang...but dean left sam behind to see for himself what was going on because he didn't trust in benny like he claimed.. if he had sam would've gone with. and dean sending that text. that wasn't about his distrust in his brother. dean knows sam well enough to know that sam would investigate for himself. this is confirmed in taxi driver by the way, when dean had absolutely no doubt in sam getting benny out of purgatory. he didn't blink an eye...he flat out told benny you come out with...and benny replied you mean the sam that wants to kill me? dean hadn't a single doubt that his brother would save benny and he was right. so it stands to reason, that dean's trust in sam was never in question. but dean didn't fully trust in benny and he certainly didn't trust in martin and sam would've been stuck in the middle. So he got rid of sam, tried to get rid of martin and in the end.....benny ended up killing a human...who didn't have it coming, as dean tried to convince both himself and sam of. and if sam had seen martin's body...sam would've known that this wasn't just about saving his granddaughter.. ..martin's body was torn apart...benny's kill was that of a monster who spent half a century in purgatory. it was the kill of a monster and once benny taste human blood like that....there was no going back for him. if you watch the deleted scene, benny admits to killing humans.
Dean knew what he became in purgatory, and benny was symbolic of dean's fall...his friendship with benny , his need to believe in benny, and benny being his connection to purgatory....Sa m's ultimatum drove Dean to make a decision...just like dean had sam make a decision...and for dean it wasn't about benny and for sam it wasn't about Amelia. Dean had to choose who he wanted to be...did he want to be purgatory dean or did he want to be the dean he was before purgatory. Sam had to choose the hunting life or a normal life.....in the end, they not only chose ea. other, but they chose the who they wanted to be.

So basically, carver told the story of two perspectives... ..and it's not about right or wrong and it was never about who's to blame. it's about coming to terms with who they are and dealing with and crushing once and for all their inner demons.

no matter which view you take ....whether sam lied to dean about not looking and he did actually look and then quit. (which kind of makes sense in what njspnfan said when he noted that depending on the writer, sam's backstory...the imploding and running and the agreement often changed...if sam didn't tell dean the truth, then it makes sense that he couldn't keep his story straight...beca use in fact both were true.

or if you look at it the way I see it...that sam imploded and ran because of the promise he felt bound to keep. and that the promise was in fact about not looking for a way to bring them back...

whichever view you decide on the message seems to me to be the same. Sam's guilt doesn't stem from not looking, it stems from breaking...from quitting. From giving up and running away. Sam's apology was for breaking in the first place...not for not looking, because as the confession notes, he either did look and then ultimately imploded...or he instantly imploded. no matter how you slice it, sam's sees himself weak for breaking in the first place, and for giving up the fight...and not only for dean, but for kevin and all the others he read about and kept up with every time he picked up the paper. So it seems that he didn't totally give up on it....and when he was ready, he did go back to the cabin.

As for other's blaming Sam....I thought both bobby, who wasn't in a rational state of mind, given that he had spent all that time in hell being tortured on a daily basis, and meg both pointed out what dean didn' t or wasn't able to do...which was questioning sam's action to begin with. out of everything sam told meg....she questioned why he hit the dog and stopped in the first place....a good question and one that should've been asked a long time ago and by dean imho. and bobby, well he was out of his mind and he never really let sam speak...but he did make an important point ....he did note that both boys went off the rails since he's been gone....and that fact was true and that was the point....that both boys were messed up. :(

Show was never about blaming .....it's about the boys dealing with this weakness they share...this low opinion of themselves that leads them to not only misperceive how the other thinks or feels about them, but overwhelms them with such guilt that it drives them into actions that end up doing harm where it was only about doing good. Lucifer's point was that Sam's guilt is his weakness...it drives him to make decisions that include only saving his brother. Lucifer...or in this case the writers...are finally telling the fans ...look it's not sam's actions that are wrong ....its' not blame that's being put on sam....sam's own perceived guilt is his weakness...mean ing sam has no reason for such guilt. he didn't do anything wrong....look fandom...listen to luci...it's not about sam having done anything wrong...it's about sam feeling like he's done something wrong...and we're telling you all that's not nor has it ever been the case....the issue lies within Sam and it's time to deal with this issue once and for all. The guilt he feels, that he's always felt is the weakness here....and this guilt he feels needs to go....so sam is releasing this guilt by apologizing for the moment he felt it all began...for breaking and running...and for allowing himself to believe he let his brother down.....dean's response is the writer's way of saying....sam you've never disappointed me. I don't blame you, I actually never really have....and this guilt of yours needs to stop. Let it go...time to move on. ;)

Sam letting go is a major step. Not only is he no longer driven by the need to prove himself...but he sets an example for dean to follow. For dean suffers from the same exact flaw. Dean too has led a life built on guilt which drives his decisions as well and dean is certainly the king of not wanting to look weak. If Sam can let go then Dean can let go....and these issues that they've carried for so long can finally be resolved...mayb e that's what the retirement home is symbolic of. mildred spoke of the secret to a happy life...follow your heart. I think dean's heart wants to tell sam the truth..i think it's his head that's stopping him....maybe all that talk of "retiring" means retiring from all that guilt;).

just a thought. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 14:08
I don't know sugarhi. I agree that we shouldn't take every word from every character as a reflection of the writers' POV, but IMO there have been too many instance of Sam consistently being cast in the wrong by other characters and by himself, with nary a word from him or anyone else in defense of him. In such cases, it seems inescapable to me that the writers are indicating that Sam was in the wrong. I do agree that Dean was not written very flatteringly in S 8 or 9 either, and there were little hints that he was in the wrong on some issues, such as when Bobby was appalled at the idea that he had befriended a vampire. But then the show made Benny into the nicest, cuddliest vamp ever, and even cut a scene in Taxi Driver which would have indicated that he had drunk human blood after escaping from Purgatory. At least that's what I read somewhere. The only reason to cut that is to make sure that Dean remains firmly in the right on that issue. If you are correct that the writers have not been trying to paint Sam as being forever in the wrong, and I would love it if you're correct, then IMO they've done a pretty crappy job of it!:)
Whatever the writers think about the actions of the brothers the past few seasons, for the most part I do agree with your interpretation of the brothers' actions and motivations.
sugarhi 15
# sugarhi 15 2016-01-31 14:36
I didn't think benny was portrayed that way at all really. He flat out was straightforward in his introduction , noting that he only wanted to help dean as a way out for himself. he's admitted to being a liar and a killer. The only reason he even wanted out of purgatory was to seek revenge. and then the next time we see benny, he kills martin in a way was way more extreme than simple self defense.....giv en martin wasn't truly much of a threat, benny didn't even really need to kill him. But the manner in which he did kill him. It was hinted throughout, as benny we see benny stalking kids and families picnicking in the park, that he was falling off the wagon quite quickly....and in a deleted scene, which is on the dvd and I've seen...benny did in fact kill humans prior to martin. The reason benny wasn't allowed to be seen that way in a more direct way, was so that when dean tells sam he killed benny to save him...had actual meaning for sam. if sam didn't believe dean cared more for benny then dean killing him would've meant nothing....dean kills vamps all the time. I also always believed that line about dean killing benny to save him was more of an admission that not only did he remember what he said to sam in sc, but that he never meant it....sam I killed benny to save you..what I said under the influence of the coin was crap..i just wanted to hurt you , but I never meant it.....not then not ever....then he follows up with the line of nobody coming before him, that it was never like that...not ever...... but sam wouldn't have gotten to this point if sam got to see the real benny....I think it's pretty much why dean kept sam away from benny the entire time.

you know...differen t eyes and all. ;):)

enjoy your day....off to work I go...maybe chat later....:D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 16:06
sugarhi, eilf's clip below supports my point. Because I think Benny clearly was portrayed as a friendly vamp. He loved a woman, was BFFs with Dean, wanted to establish a relationship with his granddaughter, and toe the straight and narrow. The show clearly seemed to indicate that Martin had it coming because he tried to use the girl against Benny. So Sam's distrust of him and use of Martin to tail him was seen by many solely the result of jealousy, which I never bought, rather than him simply being a good, prudent hunter. Yes they did include those little glimpses of Benny seemingly hanging around people to show temptation, but they cut the deleted scene purely to show that Dean was right to have placed his faith in Benny, and to make Sam look petty and jealous. While I didn't view Sam's actions that way, TPTB clearly intended to foster that impression or they would have left that scene in. To further accentuate how wrong Sam was, he actually had his ass saved by Benny and willingly admitted to Dean that he had been wrong about Benny, when apparently he HADN'T been wrong. The whole thing honestly infuriated me, in case you didn't notice.:) But now my rant is over.;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-31 17:08
If you are saying Sam hadn't been wrong based on an unaired scene then that's a false assumption. If it wasn't aired its irrelevant.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-31 17:18
If it was irrelevant they would not of filmed it to begin with.

It was simply a choice not to include it because by this time the perception of Benny was sealed IMO .
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-01 00:39
If it wasn't included it doesn't exist Show/Canon wise regardless of the fact it was filmed. It wasn't aired therefore it's irrelevant as the story goes/went. I'm sure they shoot a lot of scenes over a season that aren't included that we aren't privy to. It doesn't necessarily mean this scene held more importance than others they decided against.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-02-01 07:50
Alycat, I think we all understand that it's NOT canon. But some of us think that the show's conscious decision to NOT make it canon signifies a choice to make Dean appear "right" about Benny and Sam appear "wrong." So it is relevant to a discussion of how the show chooses to portray Sam and Dean.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-02-01 08:43
Canon has nothing to do with it Benny being associated with Dean did . The truth is Sam did not really do anything wrong where Benny was concerned it was just the choices in storytelling made him appear ''wrong'' and seemingly misjudging the vampire that Dean brought back.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 17:19
That isn't what she is saying. Or me. She is saying that the people making decisions on the show are deliberately screwing Sam over even more than was originally intended. That this scene was filmed is hard evidence of that. It doesn't matter that it isn't canon. It was, at some point, supposed to be.
It also leads me to assume that other sections of story-line that really make no sense are also the results of lopped-off stories.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 17:26
I disagree Alycat. If the topic is how TPTB are trying to portray the brothers it's clearly relevant. That scene was written and filmed to show that Sam was justified in his distrust of Benny and his desire to keep tabs on him. That someone (Carver? the director?) chose to cut it out while leaving in Dean's admission that he had buried Benny's bones (presumably so the door was open for rescuing Benny from Purgatory) as well as the scene in which Sam essentially apologized for misjudging Benny could have been done for only one purpose. they didn't want to muddy the waters about whether Dean had been right to trust Benny and Sam had been mean and wrong for not trusting him. This was not a tiny little scene of no significance. Whether Benny was trustworthy or not had been a matter of bitter dispute between the brothers. So it is relevant that they pointedly chose to eliminate this scene. IMO, of course.:)
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 18:45
Actually I am glad they cut that scene because it could have easily backfired and instead of saying Sam was right about Benny, he was responsible for the push that cased Benny falling off the blood wagon.

Up until Citizen Fang, Benny wasn't feeding on humans. We had one scene of him watching people at a funeral and that is all but not feeding, we don't know why he was looking at them. But what we do know is that was when he was on his hunt for vengeance so that was his primary concern, killing for food would mean he may get on a hunters radar and that would stop him getting his revenge for his girlfriend. After that he was living near his great granddaughter, who he said was his reason to stay dry and Martin hadn't actually seen him feed and another vamp was in the area when people started dying.

What changed from citizen Fang and Taxi Driver, Benny had lost his family and his friend and had had no given little choice but to kill Martin to save Elizabeth because after Martin had beheaded him could he trust Martin not to hurt her after he had terrorised her? And like it or not Martin wouldn't have known about Benny if Sam hadn't brought him in, so what you can argue is that if Sam hadn't been so desperate to prove Benny was wrong that he would have stayed on the wagon.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 18:53
Quote:
Up until Citizen Fang, Benny wasn't feeding on humans.
The scene in which Benny indicated that he had fed on humans wasn't specific in terms of when or how often. For all we know it was both before and after he tried to reconnect with his granddaughter. We'll never know, just as we'd never know that he HAD fed on humans if it hadn't been included in the deleted scenes.
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 19:03
But is it an argument that people want to have?

If it can be argued from the look of Benny pre and post Citizen Fang that Citizen Fang is the point he fed - what happened? Sam introduced Martin to Benny's world and Benny lost the little support systems he had. Pre citizen Fang he had had a mission and once completed he got another reason to stay off humans because as I said if Benny had left bodies he may have attracted a hunter that would have gotten in the way of his revenge plan.

But after Martin - he had no support as he lost Dean too, and he had no mission so really what incentive did Benny have to stay on the wagon? And why was Martin in the picture - Sam wanted to show that Benny would come off the wagon.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 19:54
Quote:
Sam wanted to show that Benny would come off the wagon.
Sam wanted to keep an eye on Benny because vampires- particularly ones that had spent a long time in a dangerous fighting environment - are extremely likely to fall off the wagon. He SAID that to Dean. It is not the same as your interpretation. That was why he let Dean go and talk to Benny - if he wanted to just get rid of Benny he needn't have allowed Dean to go and talk to him. What MARTIN did when Dean came back screwed up that decision because Martin was a loose cannon. Dean could probably have talked Sam around otherwise. But Dean already had a plan to screw with Sam, which made everything a whole lot worse.
The scene at the funeral was meant to make us wonder if Benny could stay on the wagon and the scene in Taxi Driver would have been the bookend to that. Dean knew that could happen. It was why he asked in the deleted scene, the deleted scene was removed so that Dean's (understandable ) connection to a supernatural creature who had helped him could not be judged as a bad thing. Which it actually WAS - if we accept Bobby's interpretation of Sam's actions then we have to accept his interpretation of Dean's also. Even with the scene removed we are only left not knowing if he Benny fed or not, indications in most episodes were that he had. Sam need never have known he was wrong about Benny feeding - since Benny atoned for that by staying in Purgatory. But it would have made it clearer to the viewers that he was judging this from a point of view of a HUNTER since people were so determined to see it other ways.
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-01-31 19:59
Quote:
And why was Martin in the picture - Sam wanted to show that Benny would come off the wagon.
No. Sam wanted to make sure Dean was right about Benny. He told Martin to watch and make sure that Benny was on the straight and narrow. Martin even told Sam that for the first month or so Benny didn't do anything. Then suddenly people started being killed by vampires. Since no one knew about the other vampire, Benny was a logical suspect. After all, in season one John told us vampires were virtually extinct, so there weren't a lot of them running around. They are supposed to be protecting people, not monsters. At least Sam didn't go and cut Benny's head off because "Dean couldn't be rational about Benny" or whatever Dean's reasoning was for killing Amy. Sam had Benny quietly watched. It wasn't his fault that the other vampire showed up. This is blaming Sam.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-03 11:37
I agree Percy. Let's just say that Dean didn't really present a great case in proving his own trust in Benny. Firstly, if Benny was exactly how Dean tried to convince both himself and Sam he was, then why hide him in the first place? There is no reason, if Benny was truly capable of being trusted among humans, that Dean would've kept him his dirty little secret. Even when Sam found out about Benny, Dean never gave Sam any info on him other than he got him out of hell. Dean had conveniently left out the part where the only reason Benny helped him out in the first place was because Dean was the only way for Benny to get out.

So if you think about it, RED FLAG....Dean hiding Benny in the first place....

The very next episode is SC, where Sam is told in oh so many words that Benny is more of a brother than Sam....Now disregarding the knife that Dean just lunged in Sam's heart, Dean also made it obvious to Sam that even if Benny turned out to be the monster Sam believed him to be, Dean wouldn't be able to kill him. He just pretty much confessed to that. If and when the time came, Dean just admitted, that he wouldn't be able to take care of Benny.... and do you know how I know this....because Dean once he got Amelia's info, Dean looked her up and got her number, for a text he was prepared to use when the time actually did come. Deep down he knew he wouldn't be able to take Benny out, and he knew it would be Sam who would...and he didnt' want Sam to be the one either....not because he didn't trust Sam, but because deep down he never trusted Benny and he feared Benny would kill his brother.

Then we get to Citizen Fang....Citizen Fang could've been the episode that laid all of Sam's doubts to rest. It was as simple as both Sam and Dean meeting up with Benny together once Martin let Sam know about the vamp kills. Yet Dean didn't bring Sam....he wanted to go on his own....why? If Benny was true blue having Sam there wouldn't have been a big deal. If Sam had gone with Dean he would've discovered the other vamp and Benny would've been absolved of Sam's doubts....and it wouldn't have taken away from Sacrifice, because Sam still had to live with the fact that Dean thought Benny to be more of a brother. But Dean went solo, machete at the ready, because he in fact did not trust that Benny didn't make those kills.

Martin of course isn't going to believe Dean, as he's defending vampires now...and Sam....well he's not really sure what to think at this point. But Martin clobbers Dean, and Sam goes with Martin to make sure Martin doesn't do anything rash....Sam insisted on taking the lead.

But Dean in his effort to either protect Benny or Sam or himself (because a confrontation with benny and Sam might learn some truths he kept from sam) sent Sam that despicable text, sending sam away from a situation that could've been avoided. So we end up with situation that looks kind of like this.

Martin, who isn't really much of a threat is ripped apart in front of Benny's granddaughter. Now if Benny was truly concerned about her, then you might think that showing his true monster colors would be what he shouldn't do. Benny could've easily have kicked martin's ass....tied him up, called dean and let dean take care of the mess. But Benny is a vampire and he did what vampires do. He killed martin in a way the most likely traumatized his granddaughter and no doubt she's not feeling the warm and fuzzies for him now. If Benny was truly the reformed vamp dean tried to get sam and himself to believe in , then benny most certainly could've handled martin in a less permanent and vicious way.

Sam, well Sam realizes that this text was sent from his brother and planned all along. Sam comes to believe that this text proves once and for all that Dean did mean what he said in SC when he told Sam that Benny meant more to him than he did.

Dean's actual doubts and distrust in Benny have him making Sam believe that Dean actually meant what he said in SC.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-03 11:37
I agree Percy. Let's just say that Dean didn't really present a great case in proving his own trust in Benny. Firstly, if Benny was exactly how Dean tried to convince both himself and Sam he was, then why hide him in the first place? There is no reason, if Benny was truly capable of being trusted among humans, that Dean would've kept him his dirty little secret. Even when Sam found out about Benny, Dean never gave Sam any info on him other than he got him out of hell. Dean had conveniently left out the part where the only reason Benny helped him out in the first place was because Dean was the only way for Benny to get out.

So if you think about it, RED FLAG....Dean hiding Benny in the first place....

The very next episode is SC, where Sam is told in oh so many words that Benny is more of a brother than Sam....Now disregarding the knife that Dean just lunged in Sam's heart, Dean also made it obvious to Sam that even if Benny turned out to be the monster Sam believed him to be, Dean wouldn't be able to kill him. He just pretty much confessed to that. If and when the time came, Dean just admitted, that he wouldn't be able to take care of Benny.... and do you know how I know this....because Dean once he got Amelia's info, Dean looked her up and got her number, for a text he was prepared to use when the time actually did come. Deep down he knew he wouldn't be able to take Benny out, and he knew it would be Sam who would...and he didnt' want Sam to be the one either....not because he didn't trust Sam, but because deep down he never trusted Benny and he feared Benny would kill his brother.

Then we get to Citizen Fang....Citizen Fang could've been the episode that laid all of Sam's doubts to rest. It was as simple as both Sam and Dean meeting up with Benny together once Martin let Sam know about the vamp kills. Yet Dean didn't bring Sam....he wanted to go on his own....why? If Benny was true blue having Sam there wouldn't have been a big deal. If Sam had gone with Dean he would've discovered the other vamp and Benny would've been absolved of Sam's doubts....and it wouldn't have taken away from Sacrifice, because Sam still had to live with the fact that Dean thought Benny to be more of a brother. But Dean went solo, machete at the ready, because he in fact did not trust that Benny didn't make those kills.

Martin of course isn't going to believe Dean, as he's defending vampires now...and Sam....well he's not really sure what to think at this point. But Martin clobbers Dean, and Sam goes with Martin to make sure Martin doesn't do anything rash....Sam insisted on taking the lead.

But Dean in his effort to either protect Benny or Sam or himself (because a confrontation with benny and Sam might learn some truths he kept from sam) sent Sam that despicable text, sending sam away from a situation that could've been avoided. So we end up with situation that looks kind of like this.

Martin, who isn't really much of a threat is ripped apart in front of Benny's granddaughter. Now if Benny was truly concerned about her, then you might think that showing his true monster colors would be what he shouldn't do. Benny could've easily have kicked martin's ass....tied him up, called dean and let dean take care of the mess. But Benny is a vampire and he did what vampires do. He killed martin in a way the most likely traumatized his granddaughter and no doubt she's not feeling the warm and fuzzies for him now. If Benny was truly the reformed vamp dean tried to get sam and himself to believe in , then benny most certainly could've handled martin in a less permanent and vicious way.

Sam, well Sam realizes that this text was sent from his brother and planned all along. Sam comes to believe that this text proves once and for all that Dean did mean what he said in SC when he told Sam that Benny meant more to him than he did.

Dean's actual doubts and distrust in Benny have him making Sam believe that Dean actually meant what he said in SC.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-03 11:43
damn double post....I must have really meant it.....:p:)

sorry about that.
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 18:54
Plus onto of that if they had kept it in and Benny had gone to purgatory and saved Sam, wouldn't Sam look like a moron if he said at the end he was wrong about Benny? Or that he was okay with Dean not burning Benny's bones?

Hell why would Dean keep Benny's bones if he knew Benny had failed to stay on blood bags? Unless he tells Sam that if Benny comes back they would have to act as proper vampire AA sponsors to give him the support he would need to stay off humans?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 19:35
Quote:
Plus onto of that if they had kept it in and Benny had gone to purgatory and saved Sam, wouldn't Sam look like a moron if he said at the end he was wrong about Benny? Or that he was okay with Dean not burning Benny's bones?


Actually sid I had the opposite reaction. Presumably they had already filmed the scene where Sam admitted being wrong, when they decided to delete the other scene. Yet unless there was still another deleted scene in which Dean told Sam about this (which seems unlikely) Sam had no idea that Benny had fallen off the wagon. So I think that it's Dean who would have looked bad by sitting there silently while Sam essentially apologized for misjudging Benny. And as far as why Dean buried Benny's bones even knowing that Benny had fed, well, I'd assume that was gratitude for Benny's decision to go back to Purgatory to save Sam. If I ever had the opportunity to interview Carver, I would ask him about this issue and about a thousand others.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 20:05
Yes that is my interpretation too. I would have WAY more sympathy for Dean in that story-line than I do for him in this constant Dean cannot be seen to do anything wrong world of post-Season 7 SPN. Sam did the right thing regarding Benny and he was shown to be wrong. And Sam doing the right thing did not in any way make a zero sum situation where Dean would have been required to be shown to be definitively wrong. Sam was right to judge that Benny was a danger. Dean was right to protect his friend. Benny was right to stay in Purgatory.

This is the ongoing problem in the show. Sam does the right things and is described as a screwup. Why?
sid
# sid 2016-02-01 17:10
To me the original purpose of that deleted scene was to show Dean screwing up in terms of how he should be a friend considering Benny's body language in Taxi driver while on Earth compared to it in Citizen Fang. Benny pre Taxi Driver was strong and upright and Benny in Taxi Driver while on Earth looked like an addict in between fixes who didn't like being an addict. But the purpose of the scene was also to remind us how Benny got in dire straits and feel off the wagon because he lost his support network, Elizabeth through Martin cutting her and having to watch Benny kill to ensure her safety from Martin and Dean who willingly walked away.

But keeping it in causes problems for the portrayal of both brothers as it would reinforce Dean's previous behaviour of trying to ensure everyone is safe and him taking the lead in doing so, the controlling behaviour that people here don't like as it causes Sam to chaf.

But there is more than that, now we can all agree that Benny's purpose was to be a wedge and Sam was right to get someone to keep an eye and Dean was wrong to keep Benny a secret. But take a step back and take it from Benny's view if he started hunting humans between leaving the boyou and meeting Dean in that alley - what happened? He essentially got tied up in the strained relationship between Sam and Dean and like it or not that isn't right. Now Sam may not have asked Martin to go as far as he did, you can argue the logic of going to 'talk' to Benny while carrying machetes to the cows come home but we are taking this from Benny's POV not Sam's remember. And for Benny - Martin attacked his family and Sam brought him in. And if he had met them at his camp instead of Sam running off he wouldn't have seen them as just wanting to talk but as hunters wanting to attack him considering they weren't bringing anyone who could act as an arbitor on his behalf. He has kind of gotten Sam's not in a mindset for talking to him already, not only from Dean but because he has never talked to Sam out side the handshake and attempted beheading. And he has not seen Sam since then although there was nothing stopping Sam asking for a sit down and talk, hell we never even saw Sam talk to Cas about Benny. The other person who maybe able to give an opinion on the guy if he wasn't sure about Dean's telling. And after all Benny had been through and Dean's words about loyalty, how he supports friends and family etc Dean dumped him to aid the relationship with Sam in what was basically a crisis point since he got back on Earth, even though Sam never asked him to do so. Really why is that fair to Benny who even if he had been killing humans it turned out to be essentially a monster with no world changing agenda, no agenda once he had killed the nest that had destroyed his girl than to survive? He never played the Winchesters off against each other, he wasn't like Crowley or Lucifer or Metatron. But he got tied up in the mix of the brothers messy communication issues and not only he but the people he killed would have paid the price.

The minute you see it from that POV then that deleted scene basically plays out as Benny as something akin to a struggling alcoholic and the Winchesters are the people who overtly (Sam) and indirectly (Dean) gave him no other coping mechanism to turn back to the bottle and get in a car, and then Dean asked him to go save Sam and then kept his bones while Sam is saying Benny wasn't what he expected? Sorry I know this doesn't make me popular but that scene out does make things easier as with it in both brothers look like royal douches who allowed an addict to become a pawn in their relationship.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-01 19:15
I get what you are saying and I agree it does make sense. I think we all just wish that Benny (who could have been a cool new ally for the brothers) was introduced in a way that didn't seem to drive an unnecessary wedge between Sam and Dean. Sam would have felt just as horrible about his mistaken assumption that Dean was dead. I don't think it would have lessened the impact of the finale. I don't think the deleted scene would have changed the minds of those that despised Sam for not looking or those that understood why he didn't. To me the deleted scene was more about Benny and another reason he wanted to go back to Purgatory. He hated the human blood addiction and the killing of innocent humans (Christopher Moore's Practical Demon Keeping would have helped Benny there). I never thought it would have proved to Dean that Sam really was the better brother. Dean had already asked Benny to go save the better brother.
sid
# sid 2016-02-02 12:36
Cheryl I too wish that Benny had played out differently. He would have been a great sounding board with a completely different POV than any other character. A monster who didn't feed on people but wasn't saying he was good or bad.

As for changing the minds of people who despised Sam. I don't think people do despise him but I don't think the sun shines out of his backside either as I don't think either brother is the 'better' brother. That deleted scene is about Benny and Dean in many ways and the one that was left in does the job fine - Dean feels he should have been a better friend and you can see Benny making up his mind to stay in purgatory because he knows he's faltering and he doesn't want to. The scene as shown in the show gives Benny the dignity of choice, you can believe he'll fight in purgatory just that he is choosing that rather than fight the hunger, while not lessening the impact that he was still a toy in Sam and Dean's relationship. Because still we have the whole body language change - just not as much as the deleted scene. The guys still look like asses because of the affect of their problems have had on Benny but not right royal douche bags.

If they had kept the deleted scene, well Benny looks like he has not only given up Earth but as soon as he gets the chance in purgatory he is going to give up fighting so he can face oblivion. Dean looks like he is keeping Benny's bones because he feels the guilt of failing Benny and he knows he can't ever fail anyone like that again so he can't let go of trying to ensure everyone is safe and Sam, well Sam when he remeets Benny has dropped any suspicion about him. With the scene as canon it is because he not only needs him but because he was actually wrong about Benny and gets that as he and Dean are in a better place. With the deleted scene, Sam contributed mightly to pushing Benny to the point where Benny killed so proving Sam right but in stead of Sam still trusting that instinct even though him and Dean were more united he dropped that instinct that Benny couldn't be trusted because he needed Benny as a guide out of purgatory. Basically with the scene Sam's actions even though he doesn't know Benny killed is Sam putting his need over actually trusting his instinct if that deleted scene is in.

So better to be without that scene.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-02 13:06
Yes I agree the deleted scene wouldn't have enhanced the story at all. When I said that it wouldn't have changed the minds of those that despise Sam I meant that there are people that watch the show that despise Sam. I'm not talking about anyone on this site but some of the others commenting here have legitimate reasons for feeling that having Sam being written as always the "wrong" brother or as categorized all through the first half of S8 as the brother that couldn't be counted on or trusted, Benny as the awesome "better" brother becomes just another plot device that provides ammunition against that character. And you have to admit Sam was pretty trashed in the first half of S8.

My only point was that Dean chose the "better" brother because for Dean there was no other choice. What that scene meant to fans varies depending on how you feel about the characters and how they were written. I happen to think your observations are interesting and probably more on target than that scene looked like on the surface.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-02 13:58
I've never believed Sam was in any way responsible for Benny killing ( and I know that goes for you as well) Benny is not a monster saint. Benny was in purgatory in the first place because he was a vampire. He also killed humans before he was killed himself and went to purgatory. The reason Benny wanted out of purgatory...rev enge. Benny wanted to kill the vamp who took his girl. Benny did not seek freedom from purgatory to redeem himself from all his kills prior to and during his stay in purgatory. He wanted out so he can further kill. Benny didn't think further than his act of revenge. He never considered what would happen afterwards. Once Benny sought his revenge, he no longer knew what to do with himself or how to behave. He's a monster after all who spent most of his life killing. He doesn't know what not to do. Benny's inability to deal with life topside, is on him and only him. He had no right to be up there in the first place...isn't that why hunter's even exist, to rid the world of the monsters that are a threat to human life?

Dean befriended a monster. I think he felt obligated to the deal they had, allowing Benny his freedom. I highly doubt Dean even knew about Benny's plan to seek revenge. Dean cut Benny loose though. The moment they got out....Dean told him to be good, but their time was up. Dean may have been off the rails, but he was sane enough to recognize that this friendship they shared down in purgatory could never be shared the same way topside. Dean liked Benny no doubt, but there was no trust there. Every call that came from Benny,....had dean wondering what was wrong, what had happened....and usually involved killing for one reason or another.

Dean's coin induced speech about benny being the only one who didn't let him down, was fantastical. Cas had abandoned him in purgatory. Sam wasn't there for him and didn't rescue him, so he let him down...but benny, benny kept dean alive and found the portal. But truth is Benny did all that so he can escape purgatory with dean ...and why? so he can exact his revenge. Benny never would've let dean down in purgatory...but topside...well that's a different story.

The deleted scene reveals that Benny did in fact let Dean down. He killed humans. He failed at living topside, so in essence, he failed Dean.

Does anyone else think dean is blessed with this amazing gift....that no one ever WANTS to let Dean down....Sam, Cas, Benny, Kevin.....Nobod y ever wants to be a disappointment to Dean...how does Dean do it? What magic is in that boy that makes people feel this way? Ironic too, since I've always felt Dean to feel like he's been the disappointment.

I figured that Benny disappointing Dean would minimize the entire scene of dean asking for a favor. Dean knowing that Benny fell of the wagon so to speak wouldn't have made killing him as difficult for dean. it would've made it a lot easier knowing that he was killing a vampire who killed humans anyway. The significance of asking Benny to save Sam shows that Sam comes first in his eyes, now and always. It would be less emotionally powerful knowing Dean's kill of Benny was no big deal, after all he was a vampire and he had killed humans. I think Dean's love for Sam is shown to be more powerful because he didn't know about the human kills. Only believing that Martin was Benny's only kill, made Dean's willingness to sacrifice Benny proof positive that Sam has always been his one and only brother.....and no one else comes even close...not benny, not cas, not anyone.

I didn't mind the scene not being shown...but like I said, I was pleased we got to see it on dvd....because it just corroborated everything that I personally had thought regarding Benny...and I'll take what I can get. ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-02 15:20
I agree that Benny wanted his revenge but he also wanted out of Purgatory. It wasn't a fun place for him. Dean loved it but Benny at the time didn't appreciate the purity of the kill. I also think it was insinuated pretty strongly at the end of SC that Dean guessed that Benny probably was killing humans. He even told Sam essentially that he wouldn't be the hunter that put him down if he was. He also told Sam again while not under the influence of a penny or anything else that Benny was the only "brother" that had never let him down. I don't think the deleted scene would have made that much difference in the minds of most fans either for or against Benny or how Sam was characterized. It was pretty strongly hinted at that Benny was killing humans in the first episode of the season when we saw him at the grave site. I think that is why he was ok going back. He didn't want to be a monster killing innocent humans (again Practical Demon Keeping would have helped him) so he opted to help Dean and go back to where he could kill with no remorse. Even though I understand why Sam had to painted as letting Dean down it didn't make it any easier for Dean to say those things to him and have half the fandom cry foul when Benny was sacrificed for the "lesser" brother. It could have been handled differently with the same effect.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-02 13:12
I had always thought the reason for not including that scene was simple; the Purgatory arc, and Benny were popular with a lot of fans. Leaving that out made it a lot easier if they ever decided to bring him back. I think he's only been back once after Taxi Driver, and that was as hallucination-B enny in The Werther Project. And while I understand arguments on both sides, I would have preferred they had included it; always better when the show deals in gray areas rather than absolutes. But, on the other hand, Season 8 was a build up to Sam's confession to Dean in Sacrifice so the POV presented by the show (not saying I agree) was that Sam was wrong in not looking for Dean, wrong for abandoning Kevin, wrong in his judgment about Benny, wrong to honor an agreement that he made with Dean, wrong for wanting to go back to college and get out of the hunting life, wrong for behaving like a eunuch in a whorehouse, etc., etc. :):)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-02-02 14:08
I don't know, njspnfan, in the first half of season 8 I wasn't a samgirl yet, and I was thinking that Sam was right, the only thing which struck me as uncharacteristi c and unbelievable was the whole idea of not looking for, but I patiently waited for explanations. When at last I was given them (my world imploded...) I told myself that though it's quite unlike Sam, but that's possible, especially after everything he had lived through. And mind you, I wasn't a samgirl yet, but I thought that Dean's behaviour in the first part of the season was extremely unapealling, and I think the first part of season 8 played a large part into turning me onto a samgirl. So, really I don't know, in my book it was the first time when Dean's negative traits were accentuated so brightly, though they were also shown both by Kripke and Gamble.
sid
# sid 2016-02-02 17:31
Quote:
And mind you, I wasn't a samgirl yet, but I thought that Dean's behaviour in the first part of the season was extremely unapealling,
It doesn't matter if it is 'appealing' or 'unappealing' what matters is the behaviour true to the character and to a traumatised PTSD sufferer who is conflicted about his time in a war zone to find out he wasn't looked for and people moved on, he's allowed to be pissy for a bit. If he isn't then that wouldn't be true to well anyone who is human.

You can dislike me for saying it but what did you expect as a response from Dean in that circumstance? Really what was your expectation when Sam didn't look?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2016-02-02 22:16
Dean's behaviour was unappealing..cu lminating in that text which played heavily on Sam's fear.In that particular instance Sam's stone no one himself threw a boulder at sam
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 18:54
Plus onto of that if they had kept it in and Benny had gone to purgatory and saved Sam, wouldn't Sam look like a moron if he said at the end he was wrong about Benny? Or that he was okay with Dean not burning Benny's bones?

Hell why would Dean keep Benny's bones if he knew Benny had failed to stay on blood bags? Unless he tells Sam that if Benny comes back they would have to act as proper vampire AA sponsors to give him the support he would need to stay off humans? It is easier for that scene not to have played all around.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 20:08
You weren't around here for the endless (completely unjustified) shredding of Sam that went on over Benny I guess. :( Or you wouldn't be able to call this result 'easier'.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-31 20:54
It was easier for Benny not to keep that scene in, it did not do much for Sam keeping out.
sugarhi 15
# sugarhi 15 2016-01-31 21:56
i guess we see it a little different and that's cool. ;) i always believed the reason they cut that scene had more to do with audience reaction. What I mean is....Dean killing benny for Sam as we know due to the fact that Dean loves Sam more than anyone and no one comes first, not now, not ever...and this would be a fact even if we all saw the deleted scene....but then it could also be said, had the scene been included, that Dean killed benny because he was in fact killing humans. Dean's speech to Sam is all the more true and authentic because the fans didn't see dean learning the truth. Had the audience seen dean learn the truth from benny, then killing him wouldn't have had the same emotional impact in the scene where dean confesses to sam the he killed benny for him...because in fandom's mind....of course dean killed benny for sam, benny killed humans and dean knew it... do you get what i mean? it wouldn't have been the same for the audience.....i was ok with never seeing it onscreen. and i was appreciative for whoever includes those deleted scenes to include that one...because i'd made many a post claiming that benny was a vampire and killing is what they do and I noted I didn't trust him...and show proved me right...and knowing that i wasn't talking out of my butt was enough for me. ;):) it was kind of satisfying knowing that all the times i defended Sam, noting it wasn't about jealousy, it was about being a good hunter....i was correct in doing so.... perhaps another reason that they kept that info strictly between us fans is because they might use benny again in the future. Maybe a vampire from purgatory will come in handy fighting the darkness....

i didn't like benny i'll admit, because i found him dull. i actually didn't start respecting him til he killed martin...that's just because he was finally being true to his nature. I think this time around, benny could actually be more interesting if he's allowed to stay true to himself...and do what vamps do....i'd like to see him and the alpha vamp together ....a team like that could be useful to the boys. ;):D
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 22:10
Sugarhi it is a completely awful thing to do to tell someone you killed your friend to show them you love them more. Come on! Even if laying on that extra guilt is not your intention, it is adding a layer of guilt to someone who is suicidal because of guilt and then telling them that they have no reason to feel suicidal. Because you chose them.
It amazes me that Sam isn't entirely insane at this stage with the layers of other people's guilt he gets laid on him along with his own. Dean should never have included Benny (the 'more of a brother than Sam had ever been') in that list in the first place - Benny's death should have been connected to a debt between Dean and Benny ONLY. Not burning Benny's bones should have been Dean's payment for the debt HE (and he alone) owed Benny for asking him for a huge favor - which Benny made it clear he was not doing for Sam's benefit but for Dean's.
Dean shouldn't have done the other list before he left to go drinking in the pub with Castiel in Sacrifice either BTW.
Benny was a sentient being (who I detest, but that is beside the point) not a pawn in Dean's showing his greater love for someone else. Sam gets blamed for Benny's 'death' by the fandom also of course ... even though it had nothing to do with him. The moral core of this show, sometimes you just have to shake your head ...
ETA: I know you aren't trying to start an argument (and neither am I) I just totally disagree that this Benny argument should be seen as a good thing and I can't not say so. Even though I suspect Jeremy Carver also meant it to be seen as an example of 'no greater love'. It is just flawed logic on his part in not seeing Benny as a person any longer but as a point of Dean showing his love for Sam. It would be the same if Sam did something like that to one of his friends for Dean.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-31 22:33
when dean told sam that he killed benny to save you , I never saw it as dean trying to prove his love by killing a friend. I saw it as Dean letting Sam know that what he said under the influence of the coin, which I totally believe he remembered, wasn't true. Sam had just said to dean: what happens when you decide I can't be trusted again....who are you gonna turn to next time? another angel? another vampire? do you know what it's like to watch your brother....and then Dean tells sam to hold on....asks him..is that what you think? because it's never been that way, not ever...look I know I said some junk that knocked you on your knees, but Sammy c'mon...I killed benny to save you.....

now the junk that dean said that would've knocked him on his heels or knees, i forget which... i totally believe with every fiber of my being it's when he told sam that benny was more of a brother than he ever was. ( i never bought the i don't even remember what i said line, dean came up with it too fast and what he said in sacrifice about knocking sam on his knees....that's the only thing he said that would've done that. ) anyway, by telling sam that he killed benny to save him...i saw it as dean actually meaning that what he had said back in sc, about benny being more of a brother wasn't true. sam believed both cas and benny came first, dean is telling sam "no" ..i killed benny to save you , he doesn't come first...he never did,. For sam the issue is about trust, for dean it's about who comes first in his heart....dean telling sam that he killed benny to save him, didn't give sam guilt because for sam it wasn't about what dean thought it was about. in S9, sam was happy, feeling good, even though the world was falling apart around them....and that's because for the first time, Sam believed that dean trusted him....that's one of the reasons why finding out that dean had been lying about the possession hurt him so much. I never got the impression that Sam felt or was made to feel guilty by that.....as a matter of fact after sam heard dean say that, sam in fact changed his mind and didn't close the gates...i always felt that those words are exactly what sam needed to hear. to believe that dean did trust him more than cas and benny....that it's never been any other way. ...again...that 's just me. ;)

o
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 23:04
Ok well that is a rather different argument then the one I was replying to. : ) it is sort of once removed, I suppose, I can accept you can see that angle of it - though it still is a dubious thing. I think it is poorly thought out on JC's part after spending a season on how noble Benny was (coming back to the point that if Benny were a more realistic vampire then the Sacrifice speech wouldn't make Dean look ... well, ungrateful) as it still uses Benny in a way that doesn't reflect well on the value of Benny's sacrifice to Dean. Dean in all honesty doesn't come out smelling of roses in either interpretation - Benny shouldn't have been included in the Sacrifice speech and some indication that Dean values Sam's lifetime history of faithfulness for itself, not just as it compares to Benny's should have been. Sam is Dean's brother.
Sam responded to Dean's plea because he didn't want to let Dean down (again, as they both see it). Dean wanted him to live so Sam agreed - you can see how much he would rather have finished the trials and been done with the guilt and all the rest of it. And from what we know of Sam - and how he was at the end of Taxi Driver - he felt bad at the abandonment of Benny - there is no way he wouldn't feel guilty about his survival being directly as a result of someone else's sacrifice. When it turns out Sam is going to die anyway Dean then appeals to Sam with not being left alone - and again it is because Dean is asking for help that Sam agrees, not because Dean has given him any reason to want to live. It is really all very sad.

ETA: On a lighter note from your last post: if I never saw Benny ever again that would be soon enough for me : ) They should bring back Rowena (which I am hoping they will since 'I am the only one who can put Lucifer back in the cage' is a double edged (survival) sword I think) and pair HER with the Alpha vamp - that would be an excellent clash of worlds (and heights)!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-31 23:45
oh I totally hope to see Rowena again....I liked her...even when she was written a bit over the top....I just saw that as her persona....a bit over the top at times but totally smart and ruthless all the same. I thought here over the topness...can I say that....was more of a ruse anyway....kind of like columbo always playing the bumbling detective..;)
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-02-01 07:04
Quote:
what happens when you decide I can't be trusted again....who are you gonna turn to next time? another angel? another vampire?
Of course one of the great ironies is that now that Dean is in trouble about Amara and their connection he does EXACTLY what Sam feared, turns to another angel. Even if he thinks it's Cas, he's continuing the behavior that undermined Sam's self confidence and helped him think that dying was the only way to make things up to Dean. Sadly I doubt that Dean turning to another angel over Sam will ever be discussed, just like it wasn't when he turned to Cas to tell him to throw him into the sun to manage the Mark. Sam's job is to apologize to Dean and reassure Dean's worries. Dean's job is to keep on acting in ways so Sam's worries are validated.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 14:54
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs6MEicUeoo[/video]
1.13
Supernatural: Making Sam look bad for trusting his instincts (and having PTSD) since Season 8
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 15:19
You know, samandean, it really seems like you put it, and at first I thought exactly like you. But later, when I rewatched the show I changed my mind. You know, if the authors really wanted to show that Sam is always in the wrong and Dean is always right, there are much simpler ways to do so. If we take every situation we will see that all Sam's actions are right, or justified or just not wrong like his decision to quit hunting for example (what's wrong with it? Is saving the world not enough? Hunting is not his obligation, it's the choice, especially for Sam, he doesn't owe anything to anybody, the world owes him for saving it), but they are blamed by the characters of the show and his heroic actions are not appreciated, on the other hand we are shown the wrong or at least questionable things made by Dean, and they are evaluated by the other characters in a rather favourable light. In fact one can acquire a kind of cognitive dissonance while watching the show :D Why not make Sam do something questionable or shady, and Dean do unquestionably right, if they wanted to show that the real hero of the show is Dean and Sam is always wrong? I think the authors only reveal the psychology of the characters by such evaluations, nothing more. I think that their aim is to show that Dean thinks that he is always right and that Sam thinks that Dean is always right, and that's why he always takes Dean's perspective and assumes that he himself was wrong, if he had disagreed with him. Have you noticed by the way, that under Carver Sam never killed a human, even a bad one, like those in Thinman, and earlier in season 8 all that captive possessed, which could be saved, were killed by Dean or Cas, but never by Sam? So, now I'm not sure, but think it's not that simple, as it seems.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 16:20
disgruntled, to a large degree I think you're right, because the writers like to have lots of shades of gray in the situations they present, rather than pure black and white. You're also right that much of the brothers' words and actions are meant to primarily reveal something about themselves. And truly TPTB could completely torpedo Sam's character if they really wanted to. But on some issues (Sam not looking, Sam being pissed about the Gadreel possession, etc) I think the seemingly concerted effort to provide a sympathetic view of Dean's actions, and a noticeably less sympathetic view of Sam's, is so pronounced that it seems clear that at least some of the writers' sympathies lie with Dean alone. The fact that many Carver era eps also lacked any significant Sam POV makes it harder to glean what Sam is really thinking and feeling. I share your opinion of Sam's character and behavior these past few seasons, I simply wish more characters on the show expressed the same opinion.:)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 16:41
I'm with you wholeheartedly :D I think it's high time to make more adequate evaluation of everything that happened, not to sweep it under the rug for good. That's the whole point of such storytelling that closer to the end everything should be shown under a different angle.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-31 15:06
Very well thought out SugarHi. Really interesting. I remember reading a piece you wrote like this regarding Carver on a thread quite sometime ago where you explained where you thought he was going and why it made sense to you which pretty much hit the nail on the head. Just like this one. So many fans view Carver as the Devil for not understanding and tearing the brothers relationship apart. Destroying both characters. When that's been the furthest from his intent as you explain so clearly in your first paragraph. There is a method to his madness. It's been painful and at times all I've wanted to do is throttle him ;), but necessary in order for the boys to grow. Great read!
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 14:00
I think, you are not digging deep enough, sid. I think all can be traced to much earlier decisions made by Sam, all started from his rash and treacherous decision to be born.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 15:16
I believe that actual concept was also mentioned in the show.
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 18:30
I don't think your response is especially constructive to the discussion do you?
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 18:48
And I don't think it's constructive to blame Sam for every decision Dean made. it makes him legally incapable, don't you think? So, do you seriously think, that Dean's enjoying killings in Purgatory and consequent PTSD is Sam's fault, that Dean's decision to close the Hell of Gates which both of them thought a right thing to do is Sam's fault, that Sam's dying because Dean was in the hurry to close them and didn't want to wait until Kevin read all the trials is Sam's fault, that Dean's decision not to lose Sam at any cost is Sam's fault, that Dean's decision to take on the Mark of Cain is Sam's fault, that Dean's decision to go after Metatron, which Sam by the way was against, is Sam's fault, that Dean's disability to resist the Mark and stop killing Sam's fault? I'm sorry but what I saw in your comment is quite masterful blame game and a good try to shift all the blame to Sam, who, by the way only did exactly what Dean had done after season 5.
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 19:06
I didn't blame anyone for anything, I said the scene was one for Sam and not about Dean. And you are trying to make it a Sam v Dean argument from your comment which sorry I'm not going to play. Feel free if you need to but I don't want to.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 19:27
I'm sorry but you are doing exactly that. You wrote exactly that:
Quote:
that lead to them being on better terms and how Dean then didn't go on about the trials and Sam wouldn't have felt so inadequate compared to Benny and then Scarifice wouldn't have played out in the way it did, they would have gotten Metatron was playing a long con because he and Dean wouldn't have been distracted by the trials and Dean wouldn't have been so open to Gadreel then Kevin wouldn't have died and the mark wouldn't have happened etc etc.
So, implying that Sam's decision not to look for caused that chain of event is not "blaming anybody of anything"? As I said a nice try to show that Sam is to blame for everything Dean did.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-31 19:51
Sid, I read your post and you certainly did not lay the blame for all of Dean's woes on Sam. Disgruntled viewer has made similar responses to my posts.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 20:12
You know that Dean (just before he escaped because he was 'nearly human' (by his own interpretation) demon character) very specifically blamed Sam for being born as the source of all Dean's problems - specifically the death of Dean's mother? As it is actually canon to the story disgruntled's point is not exactly random. Dean on some level believes that Sam's very existence is responsible for everything that has happened to Dean and therefore everything Dean has done. This is something he should be learning not to believe. God knows you couldn't have said that about him in earlier seasons - I don't know why they are retconning him this way. But the show keeps reinforcing his thinking that way and also encouraging the fandom to think that way - while showing us that Dean is in fact the only character really allowed to apply his free will.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 20:37
Disgruntled as I said somewhere else the Purgatory thing is the last point in the storyline that can be placed at Sam's feet because he was the only one involved. If Sid (as he and Spnlit appear to be agreeing - and you can correct me if I am interpreting you wrong guys) is saying that everything else that happens is as much Dean's fault (which it is) then I should accept that if I were you. (In all honesty the only direct result of the Purgatory story was Sam ending up taking on the trials (though he had no choice in the end) because he thought Dean was suicidal after being in Purgatory.) Some stuff like the MOC are totally unforced errors on Dean's part and have nothing to do with anything Sam did, technically the possession isn't either. I assume at SOME point Dean will have to face up to what he did, and that it was all him, if Sam is being made to endlessly face up to the Purgatory thing. The difference of course is that Sam's misdeed has been kept alive in episode after episode over the past 3 seasons and the fact that Dean was stupid to take on the incredibly dangerous MOC has never been addressed. They are running out of seasons for Dean to even acknowledge any of it, never mind accept that some things are just wrong things, but we must have faith that the writers are better than that.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-02-01 05:48
Quote:
In all honesty the only direct result of the Purgatory story was Sam ending up taking on the trials (though he had no choice in the end) because he thought Dean was suicidal after being in Purgatory.) Some stuff like the MOC are totally unforced errors on Dean's part and have nothing to do with anything Sam did, technically the possession isn't either. I assume at SOME point Dean will have to face up to what he did, and that it was all him
eilf, it was exactly what I was trying to say :) And I only argued with sid's assumption that
. Quote:
What I'm saying it can be argued that the strained relationship between the two of them in the past three seasons caused a snowball effect that hurt a lot of people and Sam's decision not to look that was the start. The horse shoe nail so to speak.
What is it if not a try to put the blame for everything that happened on Sam?
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-02-01 06:06
What I'm trying to say, is that Sam's decisions are Sam's decisions and Dean's decisions are Dean's decisions, and Sam is responsible for Sam's decisions, and Dean is responsible for Dean's decisions. And attempt to put the resposibility of Dean's decisions on Sam, as certain fans are trying to do is wrong.
MK
# MK 2016-01-31 14:13
Sam and Dean's relationship was strained long before season 8, and the reaction of both Sam and Dean to the 'not looking' situation is testament to that. If Sam and Dean's relationship was in a strong place, or even a half decent place, prior to season 8, then Dean would never have reacted as he did and just assumed the worst of his brother, and Sam would have been strong enough to justify himself and his actions to Dean. Dean reacting as he did, and Sam reacting as he did, is not new to the show. It is, unfortunately, a long running feature of their relationship, possibly the defining feature of their relationship. Nothing snowballed in season 8, it just gathered up even more steam and while things might have slowed down for now, because nothing has been resolved in regards to that incident, that snowball still hasn't stopped.

And while I would wholeheartedly endorse Sam ridding himself of his 'inferiority complex', he first needs to acknowledge where this inferiority complex stems from. And as unpopular as I know this statement will be, a lot of it stems from the words and actions of his brother.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-31 15:32
Absolutely agree with this MK!! Well said. Not only does Sam need to acknowledge where his "inferiority complex" comes from, that source needs to own up, just as Sam is doing. All of Sam's beautiful character growth this season is making Dean's current inability to do likewise or even tell he truth worse and worse.
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 18:34
Yes the guys relationship goes with an ebb and strain of flow but for Carver's reign the strain starts at the not looking, so the apology or the readjusting his reasoning has to start there.

As for where the inferiority complex comes from, it seems a bit mean to simply go 'it's all Dean's fault'. Plus as I said above I don't want to get into a Dean v Sam as I said that end scene was about Sam and for Sam's character development.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 20:33
Quote:
As for where the inferiority complex comes from, it seems a bit mean to simply go 'it's all Dean's fault'.

I agree that Sam's inferiority complex has its roots in events independent of anything Dean said to him. I think it started with the whole demon blood thing. Sam time and again referred to being a freak, unclean, having this "evil" inside him, etc. And when he unintentionally freed Lucifer, I felt like Sam underwent a noticeable personality shift. He seemed much less self-confident, and at the same time much more accepting of other people's mistakes. Kind of "judge not lest ye be judged." But there were many things Dean said over the years that reinforced Sam's sense of being inferior or unworthy of Dean. While some of Dean's harsh statements to Sam (which he admitted to in Sacrifice) were counterbalanced by his expressions of love for, trust in, and dependence on Sam, the fact that he has on a number of occasions dredged up Sam's past mistakes seems to have taken a toll on Sam's sense of self-worth. That is one thing I'm loving about this season -- Dean's attitude towards Sam has been generally great. He trusts in his judgment, listens to him and seems to have such appreciation for him. And that partly explains why we are seeing a newly confident, strong Sam who puts his full faith and trust in Dean AND in himself.
MK
# MK 2016-02-01 02:40
Carver was not the first show runner. He built on things that went before. The agreement between Sam and Dean was necessary based on their actions, and the consequences of same, in prior seasons. Dean has persistently brought up things that happened in prior seasons i.e. Ruby, Sam losing his soul etc etc etc.

Secondly, I didn't say it was 'all Dean's fault'. It really is a 'bit mean' to misquote and then comment based on that misquotation. What I did say was ' a lot of it stems from the words and actions of his brother', something I stand by and will develop at a later time.

Thirdly, nothing about the comments here are 'Sam vs Dean'.

I wholeheartedly disagree that the last scene was about Sam and Sam's character development. Mainly because, on so many occasions in the past, the end scene has gone the exact same way; Sam takes full responsibility for a situation they were both involved in, he is the one who apologies, he is the one who seeks to make amends, he is the one who says he is wrong, Dean sits back, accepts zero responsibility, and benevolently accepts the apology (for now). The status quo of 'Big brother is always right' has been maintained.

What would have been character development is Sam justifying his actions and/or his decision to Dean. He apology would still have been part of it. You can feel guilty but still stand up for yourself at the same time. It would also have been absolutely fantastic character development for Dean, to see that his interpretation of events wasn't accurate, and it might have led him to question why his interpretations of what Sam does and says is always so negative. (And this is something that has been an issue since season 1, even before it.) Had Sam justified what happened, especially at a time when he and Dean were getting on okay so Dean wouldn't have just shut him down, then it would have forced Dean to think beyond 'You left me to die for a girl'. However, another opportunity lost.
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 18:34
Yes the guys relationship goes with an ebb and strain of flow but for Carver's reign the strain starts at the not looking, so the apology or the readjusting his reasoning has to start there.

As for where the inferiority complex comes from, it seems a bit mean to simply go 'it's all Dean's fault'. Plus as I said above I don't want to get into a Dean v Sam as I said that end scene was about Sam and for Sam's character development.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-31 20:37
Quote:
He first needs to acknowledge where this inferiority complex stems from. And as unpopular as I know this statement will be, a lot of it stems from the words and actions of his brother.
I don't think Sam has an inferiority complex. But I will leave that issue for another time. I think he does take on a lot of responsibility and guilt. I don't agree that a lot of it stems from the words or actions of Dean; some but not a lot. The majority of it stems from his inner feelings from circumstances out of his control that started at birth. The demon blood dripped in his mouth as a baby, the feeling of being unclean, his own thoughts that he was responsible for his mother's death, his own decision to trust Ruby drink demon blood and kill Lilith ( I blame the angels for the Apocalypse). he blamed himself for Jess's death because he had the dream and he did not warn her. He feels cursed. He felt guilty for everything he did as soulless and went back to dig it up himself. He took some responsibility and guilt for fighting with his Dad. Dean has been harsh at times and supportive and positive. Dean also takes on a lot of responsibility and guilt; it is in their DNA.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-31 14:41
Yes. Sam being able to finally allow himself forgiveness and understanding in his own mind for everything that has happened, good and bad, has got to be a tremendous weight off his shoulders. A new Sam. A stronger Sam in so many ways. And this new found attitude and belief in himself is going to be crucial as Dean loses himself further and further to Amara. I'm afraid that in the end Sam is either going to have to finally let Dean go or that they are both going to have to sacrifice themselves. Ah. My heart.
sid
# sid 2016-01-31 18:29
Yes Alycat it does look that way, doesn't it.

There has been too much about how if the Winchesters die they stay dead. And what with both Amara and Dean having smitting sickness at the same time, why would someone godlike get it even on a mega smitting? Though a godhead connected to a mortal who has it may feel its affects, I'm thinking. So that may be Dean's plot.

And Sam's maybe to let Dean go if that is what it takes or even do the deed because he knows it is the only choice, and for that you need a more emotionally put together Sam.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-02-01 02:37
I didn't take it as Amara having smiting sickness so much as it was her reaction to absorbing an angel/Grace. It's the first Angel we've seen her consume. I think that's where her moment of weakness came from. I loved the visual of her recapturing the darkness into herself.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2016-01-30 10:26
I mostly agree Alice, and as a side note, can I tell you how excited I've been to be watching Mulder and Scully again? My first fandom. Sigh. Anyway, I agree with you that as a filler episode, it was good and as we've all said this season, Sam POV is gold. I also agree about the Castiel thing. It was a contrived plot device to have Castiel there so Dean could suddenly feel like spilling his guts and conveniently tell him not to tell Sam (which will blow up in his face spectacularly no doubt) and not tell Cas why he's not to tell Sam. For once, I DO want to hear what Dean is thinking. They've shifted this to the year of Sam getting to show us his feelings, but as in the past, they can't seem to give us both brothers at the same time. But I suppose the fact that Lucifer now knows Dean's secret will be a plot point later so I guess it isn't all bad. An if nothing else, it makes me curious about how it's all going to come out.

As far at the dog thing, yeah, it's annoying that this was the focus of their conversation. And one freakin' line from Dean along the lines of "Well, I did try to kill you with a hammer last year so I think we're even" might have gone a long ways. I don't think it's wrong for Sam to feel the guilt because that's Sam, but I do think it was supposed to be some sort of resolution for the fans that just didn't work really, at least for me.
Amruta Karve
# Amruta Karve 2016-01-30 11:02
I agree with your idea of scenes where Dean imagines being with Amara and Sam imagines saving Dean from Purgatory. They should have included those scenes and cut the length of Dean and Sam's individual scenes with the ladies. I thought those scenes slowed the pace of the episode(if there were any :D) and felt like filler to me instead of the whole episode. :D

And how can you say that you didn't peg Sam for being sentimental? I was surprised when I read that statement. I mean even Dean is a bit sentimental with all the photos he keeps with him. Then why not Sam? And not just because Dean but for me it really was not odd to see Sam having keepsake box and being sentimental.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-30 11:20
Quote:
what in the world drove Sam to risk the entire world just to save his brother?
It had to be the Purgatory thing because that is the last time that Sam (apparently) did something that he alone can be blamed for and feel guilty about - everything else involves taking into account Dean's role, and the show apparently doesn't want to do that. It had to be something completely out of character, of course, (You know me. You know why. I'm not leaving my brother alone out there). But if Sam really didn't look for Dean well, ok, guilt. In fact the story is still as ambiguous as it ever was. We still don't know what Sam actually did or didn't do, or why. I don't understand the people who are calling this an apology to the fans or closure. There was nothing new there. And you would have to be an extreme anti-Sam person to say that Sam hasn't both apologized and atoned for whatever he did, or didn't do, a LONG time ago. This was just RT (who is not even remotely a pro-Sam writer, he is just really good at sly digs) poking a sleeping bear (the fans). Which mostly the sleeping bear has chosen to ignore so far.
If Sam feels guilty for, for example, being willing to destroy the world to save Dean then we should be asking, well, was there any other way? If Sam had not tried to save him then what? He did agree to MOC Dean killing him on 2 separate occasions. He basically tried to kill himself on 2 other occasions as a part of trying to sort out the MOC or the Gadreel problem - neither of which disasters he was responsible for in any way. Sam dying or the MOC being removed were the two viable-by-SPN-s tandards options.
Really the sensible decision might have been to leave Dean go to Purgatory on earth (as Cain did) - live alone, not fight, control the mark, and live forever. And for Sam not to try to rescue him at all, which was very clearly what Dean wanted, he said so time and time again in season 10. It could have been an agreement between them ... goodness that sounds like a familiar storyline, I wonder why? As long as Dean entirely controlled the mark and didn't do ANY supernatural related bad things then he could have been left with the MOC. Right?
The difference of course was that in the other Purgatory Dean got to fight and it was 'pure' and he enjoyed it on some level. And he could have 'people' keep him company. Imagine Dean keeping bees? Alone.
But hey, maybe Sam didn't want to live alone without Dean? That has always been, on previous occasions, a reasonable excuse for whatever damage results.
Sam has always been fine with dying for the greater good, Dean is the one who won't allow it. Sam has been in a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation regarding Dean his entire life. But last season he saved Dean from Dean's Purgatory and it nearly destroyed the world.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-30 12:53
elif, I like your comment and can't agree more. Just a short comment.
Quote:
Sam dying or the MOC being removed were the two viable-by-SPN-standards options.
Exactly, and Sam chose dying. By the way, the world is still staying, and Amara hasn't done more damage than any file-and-rank demon yet. Marked Dean, on the other hand, was ready to rampage around the world just like Cain did in "Executioner Song". Have you noticed, by the way, that Cain's motives in his killing spree and Dean's motives in killing that Styne kid were absolutely identical: "They should die, because they had the wrong blood"? The only reason Cain had been holding it together until Dean came because he hadn't been killing anybody at all, but Marked Dean didn't even try that, so he didnt' even have a chance against the Mark. The Mark demanded killing and he did exactly that, so his getting off the rails completely was only a matter of time.
As for Sam's apology, I don't watch the show from characters' point of view neither Dean, nor Sam, just processing the information they give me. What I saw:
1. Sam felt guilty for not looking for, or not doing enough, his words were a bit ambiguous, but let's presume it was just an awkwardly written phrase. Is that anything new? No. Dean forgave him, at least till the next Sam's "transgression" . OK, so we already guessed. Then, nothing new here. Sam said the phrase "He always stood by me, I let him down" He had already said that. So, nothing new. The only new thing was that in the final scenes Sam stopped feeling guilty. So I think the only meaning of raising that issue again was exactly that. Writers wanted to wrap up the issue of Sam's guilt. I take it as an encouraging sign.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-31 07:08
Quote:
what in the world drove Sam to risk the entire world just to save his brother?
Maybe it's because Dean demands it of Sam on a regular basis. If Sam seems unwilling to save Dean at all costs he is lambasted from every corner. He was vilified for being ungrateful that Dean was in fact willing to do just that for him in season 9 with the possession when he himself was in fact willing to die for the greater good. Now we've come back around with Lucifer telling Sam that he's no longer a hero because he's willing to save Dean at all costs. So, when Sam was willing to let Dean go in season 8, and when Sam was willing to die in season 9 to protect the world he was criticized by the fans and Dean and the show and proven to be wrong. Now that he's willing to follow Dean's lead, to save Dean at all costs and doom the world just to do it (season 10), once again he's wrong. Poor guy really can't win can he?
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 08:12
As I'm going on to say Dean's opinion is Dean's opinion as well as Sam's opinion is Sam's opinion and, if a large number of fans watch show from Dean's point of view taking it for the authors', that's their problem. Sam's and Dean's opinions don't show who is right and who is wrong they only reveal something about their personality. If Dean was kicking Sam for not looking for and Sam was feeling a profound guilt about it, that doesn't mean that the authors think that Sam did something to be blamed for, it only shows the personal traits of the characters. So, the whole situation showed that at that period Sam had lost his confidence and started to rely on Dean's opinion as the only right one because he stopped to trust himself after his fiasco with Lilith and his insanity, he made Dean's opinion his cornerstone number one and that's why despite his own feelings he kept the promise and stopped looking. But after Dean's return Dean kicked him for exactly that, and Sam came to the realisation, that he was mistaken that he had done exactly what Dean had wanted, then he was driven to close the Gates of Hell, but Dean asked him not to, and out of his feeling of his guilt, he did exactly as Dean wanted despite his own conviction (both of them thought at that moment that Dean was always right - Hallucifer to Sam said that Sam considered Dean to be saint and LeviDean said that Dean "has application for sainthood"). Then, he blindly trusted Dean in 09.01, and in 09.12 and 09.13 he came to realisation that Dean wasn't always right that he can't always follow Dean. Funny, that this realisation is considered by many as something Sam should feel the guilt for. How he even dared think that Dean is not always right! That was a turning point of Sam's returning his confidence, the process which has been shown us up to this last episode. Not in this episode Sam at last let his guilt go and that's an important step towards his returning his confidence.
I don't want to tell what I think about Dean kicking Sam for the same things he himself had done and for the fact that Sam simply kept his promise to Dean, so I'll leave that out.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 08:15
Quote:
Not in this episode Sam at last let his guilt go and that's an important step towards his returning his confidence.
Now in this episode Sam at last let his guilt go and that's an important step towards his returning his confidence.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-31 15:37
But it does mean the authors feel the same way when Dean's POV is shown multiple times and Sam's isn't. It does mean that the authors feel that way when other characters criticize Sam's actions and bring them repeatedly into our view over and over again in a negative light and Sam STILL does not defend himself. Like it or not, the actions and words of the characters reflect how the authors of the events feel about those events and the characters roles in those events, and in that vein the writers have screwed Sam repeatedly for the past three years.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-31 16:33
Now I think that it's a plot device, you know. We are given facts and we are given opinions. Viewers should make their own decisions, not to rely on the opinions of the characters of the show, all characters involved in the plot are unreliable narrators to some degree. Sometimes the authors express their own point of view, but it usually happens through some episode or subsidiary characters, like it was with Chuck in season 5 finale, or Death, I also think that the authors point of view was expressed by that teen author in the 200th episode, it should be always somebody not deeply involved in the story, just somebody introduced to clear up some points and then dissapear for good or for a very long time.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-31 18:37
A three year plot device that has had no definitive outcome or resolution? I disagree. If the "Sam is wrong" and "Dean is right" take that's been going on for years was a plot device then it would have had to evolve somehow, but it hasn't. And fans opinion are swayed by the characters themselves, what they feel, what we are shown about them, and their actions. When these actions are delved into in great detail in one character and not in another character then it becomes difficult to do anything but sympathize with the character that has the most depth and detail. With Sam the audience is expected to fill in too many blanks on their own. HIs words are often unsympathetic with no insight as to what is driving them (The Purge, Sharp Teeth); his actions are largely unsupported in the narrative (The Year of the Dog, The Year of Saving Dean), nothing sympathetic is revealed about him (his nightmares are a single line of dialog rather than shown) so it becomes difficult to understand and therefore support him. Therefore we take what the more sympathetic, detailed and rich character has to say as gospel.... or at least many fans do. WFB is a rarefied environment of those who value Sam DESPITE how he's been shown and portrayed; we cut him every break, reinterpret the little information we've been given endlessly to try and mitigate the damage done to him in the writing. That's what makes this place so special.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-31 21:13
A good example of a writer writing in a way which instills subliminal bias is in this last episode where RT had Sam describe a list of visions from a previous episode which included himself kissing a girl and, oh yes, sacrificing himself to hell for eternity to return Lucifer to the cage as '..a highlight reel of my greatest failures...'
One single episode after someone unarguably and for the first time since it happened (if you don't include Death - which personally I always have) definitively acknowledged the importance of Sam's sacrifice and that it was Sam that made it ...
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-01 08:56
Good point. We've been arguing and commenting since season 5 that no one seems to remember that it was SAM who saved the world from Lucifer. Character's have praised Dean for this continually, and Dean has praised Cas, but Sam gets the blame for breaking the world (Tracy) and no one reminds them that the ultimate sacrifice was Sam's. Now we finally, six whole years later get a reminder and it's framed as a "failure." This is the kind of thing that makes Sam as a character suffer and turns fans against him.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-02-01 19:06
Quote:
Now we finally, six whole years later get a reminder and it's framed as a "failure."
How do you see Sam's sacrifice framed as a failure ?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-02-01 20:50
I think the failure that Sam saw was that he didn't pursue the normal life (in school kissing the girl) education, law school, family. Also that he (even though accidentally) let Lucifer out, not that he sacrificed himself to shove him back in. His life with Amelia was the only thing he apologized for. Because that was the only vision that he really felt guilty about.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-02-01 10:26
Quote:
WFB is a rarefied environment of those who value Sam DESPITE how he's been shown and portrayed; we cut him every break, reinterpret the little information we've been given endlessly to try and mitigate the damage done to him in the writing. That's what makes this place so special.
That's not the only thing that makes this place so special :), I've never seen so unbiased, in-depth, informative and interesting articles which are published here anywhere else :)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-01 20:41
True dat! :P
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-31 20:53
Quote:
what in the world drove Sam to risk the entire world just to save his brother?
I don't buy into the idea the sole reasons being guilt or because Dean demands it. It was because he loved his brother and did not want him to be a demon. Sam had experienced his brother's death, died in his arms and he laid his body on the bed and then was horrified to see what Dean became. Maybe he just wanted to be there for Dean.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-30 11:31
Hey Alice,

In regards to your question about Sam's apology. This is the way I had interpreted the last two episodes.

P. S. This is a post that I had posted on Nightsky's thread, so if anyone has happened to glance over it before, there's no need for an encore :p. It was just easier to copy and paste rather than rewrite all my thoughts.


Last week's episode, Lucifer tried to manipulate Sam by convincing Sam that he was too weak to take on the Darkness. He wanted Sam to believe that he no longer had the fight that he once had which had enabled him to save the world. Lucifer did this by taking Sam for a walk down memory lane, showing him what Lucifer perceived as Sam's boldest, bravest moments and then showing him when he lost it all. Lucifer showed Sam with Amelia and in that moment Lucifer did his damnedest to convince Sam that by choosing to run from hunting, by giving up, this was the moment Sam became weak, he lost his will to fight and he no longer has what it takes to beat Amara.

Lucifer's attempt to get to Sam failed, but it did manage to cause Sam to feel guilty all over again, this as we saw in the moments when Sam couldn't sleep and the conversation between him and Lucifer kept swimming through his head. The guilt is still with Sam as we all saw and finally got to hear in tonight's episode, but I don't think it's all black and white and I feel that both Andrew Dabb and Robbie Thompson have at last showed the fans what most of us have believed all along, so thank you for finally letting us see for ourselves what we've been saying all along.


Weakness has been a hot topic concerning Sam and Dean this season. They both believe that at one point they have been weak and thus perceive themselves to be a failure/disappo intment to their brother. As we have seen in the last two episodes, and all those previously in one form or another, both these boys are still guilty of this false perception. I think Sam and Dean share the same basic flaw and it's THIS flaw that is their weakness at times, it's their own perception due to their low opinion of themselves which often leads to guilt. Lucifer had Sam thinking his moment of weakness came, not by keeping a promise, but by running away from hunting and hiding in a fantasy world that included a woman Sam never truly loved and a dog. Sam as he admitted, imploded and ran. He didn't have the strength at the time to stay in the life that killed his family, and he didn't have the strength any more to care about the rest of the world. At the time of his grief, until he hit the dog, Sam seemed to stop living and caring about anything. The truth of the matter is, hitting that dog saved Sam's life. Sam shifting his focus to start caring again, to start helping again, as is why he chose a broken Amelia, who had lots of similarities to Dean. In that time he chose to run, he found the strength to get through and even before Sam knew Dean was alive, he left Amelia and went back to the cabin. We saw Sam coming to terms with his need to stop running during his conversation with Amelia's father even before the call came in about dear dead Don's magical reappearance. Amelia's lost husband returned and the bond they shared was no longer there. Sam knew it was time to get back to his real life or at the very most he couldn't share a life with a woman he didn't truly love because love was never what brought them together.

If Lucifer tried to convince Sam that his greatest weakness was in leaving the hunting life and running from it, I disagree with Lucifer's assessment. Though Sam was broken, he found a way to survive. He found the strength to live again and when the time came, he left the life of normal and headed back to the cabin. Finding a way to survive a devastating loss is possibly one of the strongest things a person can do and not too long ago, Dean did the same thing in order to find a way to keep going, to survive as well.

The flaw here in Sam is his own perception of self loathing and guilt. He did nothing wrong in believing his brother died. He did nothing wrong in keeping a promise they made. He did nothing wrong when he broke and ran away from the life that killed everyone, Mom, Dad, Jess ,Dean, Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Ash etc....he did nothing wrong in finding a way to survive. What he did do wrong was allow himself to feel guilty over all of it, to believe that he was a failure to his brother. His flaw was in allowing his self loathing to take over and fall victim to misperception. He did not fight back when Dean constantly ragged on him about not looking. He doesn't give his brother a beat down when Dean doesn't get that he was keeping a promise to his brother and most importantly, he doesn't tell Dean himself that he imploded and ran, that it was hell, that all he wanted to do was look for a way to bring him back but they made a damn promise and that's what Sam believed Dean wanted.

I just wanted to mention something regarding the promise. This pact/agreement that was made is very important. Although made off screen, it was made for a reason. The three of them made this promise because of everything that's happened since Dean made his demon deal. This agreement didn't just come out of the blue, there is precedence for the boys to make this promise to one another. When the Winchesters make a promise to ea. other, they stick to it. We must remember the significance of this pact...if the pact didn't exist, then Sam most likely would never have imploded and ran. What we have to remember is, once upon a time Dean wanted to call it quits when Sam died. He said he gave enough. He said he lost enough...and when Bobby told Dean something big was coming, end of the world big...Dean's reply was "then let it end". The only difference between Dean's circumstance then, and Sam's back in s8, was that Sam was bound to a promise...and Dean, well was free to do whatever it took...Here's the kicker, it's Dean's act in the first place that ultimately led to the pact the boys made. If Sam wasn't burdened with a promise, he would most likely have looked for a way to bring his brother back from the dead. Without the agreement, there would be no implosion.

damn I digressed again:p:.....Sa m's flaw was his low opinion of himself and his belief that he deserved to take the beatings and his belief that his brother saw him as a failure. (which was never the case and Dean's issues were not about Sam, they were about him...but then that goes back to Dean's flaw...same as Sam's ..self loathing....onl y it's worn differently on each of them...but the result is always the same....misperc eption and the false belief that they are a failure to the other).

If the stroll down memory lane did anything, it was having Sam recognize this guilt that stems from how he sees himself and not how his brother actually sees him. Showing Sam the moment with Amelia seemed to have the opposite effect on Sam....the way I saw it, it seemed to clarify once and for all that his time with Amelia wasn't about weakness, it was a sign of strength, Sam found a way to survive, because of his love for his brother. Sometimes one just needs a little time to regroup, by Sam focusing on Amelia, we see Sam not giving up on life, but as a means of surviving it, even he if had to do it by living a life that wasn't a reality. ;) But of course the guilt is still there. Lucifer did remind Sam of the guilt that he does feel. The guilt for breaking in the first place. The guilt for running away. The guilt for seemingly disappointing Dean.

I think Robbie Thompson has continued to use the double meaning method of writing in which the story can be interpreted in two ways, depending how you choose to view it. No matter how one chooses to view it, the same message is there.

Sam: "I should've looked for you . When you were in purgatory, I should've turned over every stone, but I didn't ...I stopped." This statement can be interpreted in two ways.

We have option A.
One can look at it like this; "I should've turned every stone but, I didn't, I stopped"...Does that mean Sam in fact did try? Those first months when Sam said the just got in the car and drove, did he make the attempt to look but failed in that attempt? He stopped because he had no information, no clue, no help, nothing....did he convince himself that his brother had died because he couldn't face up to Dean just being missing and Sam not able to find him.?

or....

Option B
"I should've looked for you." (as in I should've looked for a way to bring you back). "When you were in purgatory, I should've turned over every stone" (meaning, I should've looked for other ways besides demon deals to bring you back from the dead. I should've tried other methods, promise or not.) But I stopped (but instead I ran. I stopped hunting. I couldn't do it. I was weak and I failed you.) *This is of course how Sam sees himself, not at all as I see Sam.


I believe with all my heart that it's the latter, Option B. Dean's non reaction to Sam's confession has me convinced of this. But no matter how you look at it, Sam has borne the burden of this guilt to this day....and even though it would've been nice for Dean to admit that a promise was made, I think by telling Sam to let it go...he's long forgiven him...and all that matters is that they're together, was his way of letting Sam know that Dean loves him and never has truly seen Sam as a disappointment. I also think it implies that Dean understands. I think Dean understood ever since Sacrifice. Sam's willingness to die because he didn't want to let Dean down again, his confession that his biggest sins were letting dean down in the first place...it was then that Dean realized his part in making Sam feel this way, even if he didn't realize he was doing it. I think Dean also at this point understood where Sam was coming from, I think he understood all the way back to Larp and the Real Girl, when he confessed to Charlie. I think Dean's actions in the second half of the season basically was his way of letting Sam know he understood and was no longer angry, after all Dean has been through the same thing. I didn't see it necessary for Dean to talk about the promise and go into it all again, because I felt like he sort of did that in his own way during Sacrifice. Dean didn't need, want or even expect Sam to apologize. Sam's apology was not only for Dean, it was for Sam. Sam has been carrying this guilt for so long now, even still, even after brother's keeper....this was Sam letting go of the guilt. Dean didn't even know Sam was feeling this way....But when Sam does finally let himself free of the guilt....Dean, the king of guilt, is gracious enough not to dismiss it, but to allow Sam this freedom...and to assure Sam that none of it mattered and the only thing that's important to him is that they're together....and I appreciated that. :D

This is kind of a p.s.

Another reason that I believe it to be option b is because sam never used the words you were missing and i couldn't find you. It was very important and notable that right from the start carver made it perfectly clear that sam thought dean was dead.....anothe r reason is that there is no precedence for an agreement to be made about them being missing..everyt hing that has ever gone wrong has been because of resurrections. I totally believe that dean's question of not looking for him was not about him being missing, it was about sam looking for him as in looking for ways to bring him back...i don't think dean wasn't hearing sam when he repeatedly told dean he thought he died.

And as i think more about it, i am more sure than ever, given sam's new outlook which is the boys old outlook, that sam's apology was more about him believing he was weak when he imploded and ran. He has been so driven by his guilt over failing his brother he had forgotten what being a hunter was all about..he forgot about the innocents and his focus was soley on dean...by breaking and imploding, by running away, by carrying this guilt and being driven by it, he unleashed the d on the world. Sams weakness is guilt..by apologizing for it he rids himself of it..and by dean allowing sam to apologise, without going into his part..he is enabling sam to finally let go....now sam can do what it takes to stop the darkness without the burden of guilt influencing his decisions.;)

anyway that's my interpretation ....jmo of course. ;)
Alice
# Alice 2016-01-30 12:39
Thanks, great analysis! I don't mind you reposting from another thread. It is relevant to both places!
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-30 13:02
Hey Alice, I just want to make a short comment.
Quote:
What about the guilt of telling Dean in “The Purge” that he wouldn’t save him if the circumstances were the same? Or didn’t he let him down when Metatron killed him? Was the “I lied” comment an acceptable apology?
May be the authors think that Sam has nothing to feel guilty about in these situations? Dean's perspective is not the authors' perspective. And may be they even think, that Sam was right in that Gadriel's possession thing? And I don't understand how it should be Sam's guilt that Metatron killed Dean in any way.
Mallena
# Mallena 2016-01-30 13:20
This is the first episode of the season that I have not rewatched yet. I usually can't wait to do that the next day. I liked Mildred, just wish she had been toned down a bit. Too many sexual overtones. Look and admire, sure, don't we all, but the hand on knee moment went too far for me. I liked Eileen, but wouldn't being deaf make it hard to be a hunter? I'm not dissing the disabled. In the last three generations of my family we have loved ones with autism, brain damage from a scull fracture, deafness from another accident, blindness from glaucoma, and cerebral palsy. I should call Sam and Dean, I think one of my ancestors might have pissed off a gypsy. I guess Sam and Dean get snuck up from behind and hit on the head a lot, so maybe other senses kick in. Sam does need a friend, they could text. When Sam started talking about purgatory, I was happy, maybe an explanation that makes sense was forthcoming. Then I was let down when all he said was "I stopped". Really!! That's all. Disappointed!!! Have to let it go, but it's hard. Loved Sam's memory box. Hidden way underneath is the real amulet, I'm positive. Sam, get a bigger bed!! Dean, please talk to your brother about Amara so us the viewers can understand what is going on in that head of yours. Fear in Dean usually comes out as anger or action. But please speak, man. Liked the songs...It's wonderful, wonderful.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-30 15:18
I liked this one a little better than you did Alice, and gave it a B+. The story was pretty run of the mill, other than the fact that we got a banshee as the monster for the first time. They did a nice job of giving some depth to the Mildred and Eileen characters, to the point where you actually cared about them and would enjoy seeing them come back again; so, nice job by Robbie Thompson. And if as suspected, Andrew Dabb is responsible for the marked improvement in writing and continuity this season, well done.

Early on, I thought there was a reason for the whole Sam not looking thing stuff that has been brought up over the these last two episodes have proven that this was just a ginormous f'up by Carver and he, or Andrew Dabb on his behalf, are trying to smooth things over to the point of doing a retcon. At first the story was Sam thought Dean was dead and his world imploded. Then we got the damn "we had an agreement" pile of manure. Now we're told Sam stopped looking and that it's his biggest regret. No shit, Sherlock; we kind of figured that out in 8.23 Sacrifice. I took these conversations/s cenes as, by proxy, an apology for that Season 8 nonsense, have moved on, and hope they stop revisting it.

The other possibility is that they are spending a lot of time on this and neglecting some of Dean's transgressions in S9/S10 in order to setup Dean for the big fall, where he ends up choosing Amara over Sam. Deep down, that might be Dean's biggest fear; he was able to turn on Amara when she threatened Sam earlier this season, but will he be able to when it happens again?

Jim Michaels said they tried to get the rights to Into The Mystic but the artist declined permission. But I did love the Warren Zevon song they used for the closing montage.
Didi
# Didi 2016-01-30 16:11
I agree with you in that it's possible that Dean may choose Amara. I said the same thing in my comment above. Dean chose Amara once already, when he didn't take Sam's call in Devil in the Details. I wonder if Dean not taking Sam's call will get revisited by the writers in future eps, seems like a bit of forshadowing to me.
paladinteacher
# paladinteacher 2016-01-30 15:45
Eileen survived the Banshee (Stonehenge!) attack that killed her parents as a baby because she was deaf. Or her mother's spell made her deaf. I couldn't figure out which

I thought that I saw blood coming from the baby's ear after the Banshee attack and I assumed that the Banshee's screams had deafened her. She didn't die because her mother's spell banished the Banshee before it ate her brains.

Sam has a keepsake box now? The brochure of the senior home earned a spot? Huh. I guess having a home does make a difference. I never pegged Sam to be the sentimental type. Maybe he's doing it more because he's a legacy and their history should be preserved too. Any thoughts on this?

I have always thought of Sam as having a cigar box with a few things that are important to him in it. Some things like a few baseball cards, an action figure. Things that he carried around from place to place as they rode around. His kid writing would be on the outside of it - "Keep out Dean!" A place to put a few things he treasured. Jessica's engagement ring would be in it. Sam has always seemed to me to be the one that would be more sentimental, but not let on about it. John had Dean's first sawed-off shotgun and Sam's soccer trophy in his storage building, and it has been said more than once on the show that Sam is a lot like John.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-30 16:04
I think Sam hides his toothbrush in that box as well and leaves the other one out as a decoy for Dean :P
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-30 16:09
Quote:
Sam has always seemed to me to be the one that would be more sentimental, but not let on about it.


I agree.
paladinteacher
# paladinteacher 2016-01-30 15:48
Okay, I tried to do the quotes, but I didn't do it right.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-30 15:53
When it comes up it says [quote}[/quote} you need to put the text you are quoting between the two bits so: [quote} Text you want [/quote} : )
(it is all square brackets)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-30 16:02
Quote:
The other possibility is that they are spending a lot of time on this and neglecting some of Dean's transgressions in S9/S10 in order to setup Dean for the big fall, where he ends up choosing Amara over Sam. Deep down, that might be Dean's biggest fear; he was able to turn on Amara when she threatened Sam earlier this season, but will he be able to when it happens again?
Njspnfan, I've been wondering if they are going to go the opposite route and set Sam up for yet another Sophie's choice of whether or not to save Dean. Because it is odd that they have chosen to revisit the whole "not looking" issue in such depth. I don't think they did it for the fans who have hated or questioned that whole plot, because that just seems odd that they would do that 3 years after the fact. also, the way they have framed it this season has left many fans just as pissed off as they were before. (me, for example:)). So there has to be some reason relevant to this year's plot. Option A is what you suggest, that they're setting the table for Dean's version of Sophie's choice, choosing between Sam and Amara. That is certainly plausible, but if they go that route I hope it entails other characters on the show judging Dean for it the way Sam has been condemned for not looking, culminating in a scene in which Sam magnanimously "forgives" Dean. Which he of course would do, because that is Sam to the core. Option B is that they are setting up a situation (again) in which Sam has to choose between saving Dean and saving the world. The reason that seems more likely to me is because it is Sam's story this season, deciding to get back to their original mission of saving all people, not just each other. And that was a big part of Lucifer's walk down memory lane, establishing that Sam has strayed far from that core mission, unlike when he jumped into the pit to save the world. It would be a somewhat repetitive plot, having just been done last season, but the outcome would be very different. It would be a real Sophie's choice for Sam because he would be torn between letting Dean down (right after he has managed to put aside his guilt over the S8 crap), and letting the world be destroyed. It might in fact be like Swan Song if Dean is written as begging Sam to defeat Amara even if Dean will be lost as well. The plotting for Sam this year indicates that this time he would do as Dean did in SS and let his brother sacrifice himself to save the world. If the story does unfold this way, the one potential danger is that once again some characters (and many fans) will see this as yet another betrayal by Sam, rather than the right thing to do. I wasn't watching the show in S5 but I'm assuming that there was little or no condemnation of Dean for letting Sam take the bullet to save the world. Those are my thoughts at this point, though they change on a daily basis.:)
Didi
# Didi 2016-01-30 16:28
Your post made me tear up. What are your thoughts on Lucifer? Who's gonna take him down? Who's gonna retrieve Cas from wherever he is?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-30 18:31
Honestly Didi, I'm still not sure what side (if any) Luci is on. I'm leaning towards thinking that he will not be aligning with Amara, because, well, Luci doesn't play well with others. I guess we'll find out more about that in the next few eps. But if I had to guess, I'd say that somehow the brothers (if the plot goes as I'm surmising) might contrive a way to get rid of both Amara and Luci in one fell swoop, with Dean as the unfortunate collateral damage. Maybe Sam figures out a way to get them both sent to the empty, although I'm not sure exactly how this would impact Dean. In this scenario, which is based entirely on conjecture, Cas has already been saved from wherever the heck he is. And that's as far as I've gotten!:)
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-30 16:47
I agree with you about the Sophie's Choice. In all seriousness I don't know where Sam currently stands on the whole saving the world business. He seems to be currently at:
1) I won't allow my brother to die under any circumstances whatsoever even if it results in the destruction of the world (Ep 11.1)
2) I won't say yes to Lucifer even if it means that I and my family and friends all die (11.9)
3) I won't allow myself to die because it makes Dean do (stupid) things to get me back that I then get punished for because they lead to even bigger problems down the road that are somehow entirely my fault. Also Dean gets upset with me if I get pissed about it and that is a worse sin than world destruction.
If anyone has an answer as to what Sam should do next time he has no choice I would like to hear it.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-30 16:55
Move over to Arrow .

Seek the advice of the magic conch.

Or he could just bang his head against the nearest wall.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-30 17:10
Hi Sharon, I don't know the conch reference sorry :D And I deleted most of my post but njspnfan basically has what I was saying but in a less emotional way. Anyway I think I would like to see if anyone has an answer to what Sam's current mindset is after all ....
Didi
# Didi 2016-01-30 18:04
Just dusted off my Oracle... It's tells me that when Sam finds out about Dean/Amara and Luci roaming around topside, he will reach out to his new hunter friend Eileen for help. Because for the first time in a long time the writers seem to have remembered that Sam is smart. No more making deals with crossroads demons or any other unsavory types.

I think Sam is going to find himself truly alone. I think Amara will have Dean so twisted that he will choose her. So Sam is going to be fighting 3 big bads - Amara, Luci, and Dean. Not to mention try to bring Cas back. Sam working together with Eileen to intelligently figure this mess out is where I hope his head is at.

My Oracle is oftentimes wrong though.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-30 18:48
I agree that Sam has displayed some contradictory thoughts on the issues of saving the world vs. saving Dean. But as I commented below to njspnfan, I think all of his conflicting thoughts and emotions should be resolved into saving the world vs saving Dean if his story arc this season is to have any meaning. And it should be framed as the right and just thing to do, although I'm a little uneasy on that count given the show's recent history with respect to Sam's decisions. I've just been so heartened by how favorably Sam has been portrayed this season that I feel like they might follow through with it until the end of the season.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-30 17:00
Great points, samanddean10. Sam has already had two "Sophie's Choice" (great way of putting it, btw), when he didn't look for Dean when he thought he was dead/world imploded/stoppe d looking/getting a shampoo and haircut/take your pick/ at the end of Season 7, then at the end of Season 10 when he went to extremes to save Dean from the Mark of Cain. So your scenario flips the roles in Swan Song which, when you think of it, makes sense because Amara and Lucifer on the loose is Apocalypse II. We've already had had some indication that you might be on to something; Sam emphatically told Lucifer NO this season, after saying Yes in Season 5 in a last ditch effort to put Lucifer back in his cage. And that brings us to your great point; if Dean and Amara are linked, and killing Amara would result in Dean's death, would Sam stand by and let that happen? The wild card in all this is Lucifer.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-30 18:42
Quote:
if Dean and Amara are linked, and killing Amara would result in Dean's death, would Sam stand by and let that happen?


I'm leaning yes, especially (or maybe only) if Dean is on board with the plan. Otherwise, every bit of character growth that Sam has shown this season is meaningless and we will simply have a replay of Brothers Keeper. I think the point of the reminder of the S8 debacle was merely to raise the stakes for Sam and make his decision even more wrenching. Because nothing can ever be simple for the poor guy! The difference will be that this time, Sam will leave no stone unturned trying to rescue Dean from whatever befalls him when Amara is dispatched. I really think this scenario would be consistent with all of the threads they've begun this season, some of which I had been puzzling over. But stay tuned for next week, when I will come up with an entirely different theory.;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-30 19:02
Or both brothers sacrifice themselves ala Kripkes original ending before the show was renewed for a sixth season...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-30 19:29
what are you referring to? I never heard that that was how Kripke would have ended it. I thought it would have ended with Sam in the pit and Dean with Lisa.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-31 15:46
That's how I heard it to, that Kripke's plan all along was to have Sam make the ultimate sacrifice.... that the end of the show as he wanted it was Sam in the pit forever and Dean having to let go. I'm pretty sure Kripke has said as much in interviews. I haven't heard any other interpretation of the ending of SS.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-02-02 09:48
i read basically the same thing; the original ending had Dean alive, with Castiel and Bobby dead, and Sam in the pit. They added the Castiel/Bobby resurrections, and Sam back from the pit because of S6.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-30 16:41
Quote:
I thought that Sam already earned forgiveness from Dean in “Sacrifice” when Dean opted not to close the gates of Hell to save his brother. Sam was willing to die rather than not let Dean down again. Why is that guilt lingering? What about the guilt of telling Dean in “The Purge” that he wouldn’t save him if the circumstances were the same? Or didn’t he let him down when Metatron killed him? Was the “I lied” comment an acceptable apology? Wasn’t the driving force behind removing the Mark of Cain so that Dean wouldn’t become a demon again, the one thing they hate more than anything, because Sam couldn’t bear to go through that again? So yes, while I felt Sam’s pain over the whole Luci situation, I’m still not buying that the true reason of his sadness and pain is because he didn’t look for Dean between season seven and eight.
I agree. So much has transpired between the brothers that i find it difficult to believe that Sam's motivation, pain and anguish was based solely on guilt because of his decision to not look for Dean. That seemed so over and done. I do not see Sam being motivated solely by guilt especially something that was already forgiven and buried under many more pivotal moments in their lives.
Freebird
# Freebird 2016-01-30 18:56
Thank you for your review, Alice.

Something has me left confused, and not just in this episode: if the bunker is warded, how come Lucifer was able to get in? Did I miss anything?
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-01-30 19:17
I know this one. Lucifer is still an angel and the bunker isn't warded against angels.The MOL wouldn't have considered angels to be evil and Sam and Dean didn't ward it against angels so Cas could come in. I don't think the MOL ever considered the idea that Lucifer would get out of The Cage, or Hell or wherever they thought he was, so they think to ward it against him.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2016-01-30 20:14
Well Castiel was an angel, he was in the bunker and Dean did not seem surprised, plus there was the whole Netflix watching thing so I'm guessing the angel warding has been disabled.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-31 10:22
Technically, there is an out for the writers on this; in 8.12 As Time Goes By, when Sam was inquiring about the key to the MOL bunker, and how to stop Abaddon

Larry You don't. If you know where the key is, then take it to these coordinates. Throw it in. Shut the door forever. And walk away.
Sam Wait, w-why would I do that?
Larry Because it is the safest place on earth, warded against any evil ever created. > It is impervious to any entry, except the key.

So, if the door is unlocked or you have a key, about anyone can get in. What confuse me back in S9 is that Crowley teleported in to the bunker just before Dean became a demon; that made no sense at all.

And, technically, while angels aren't considered evil, A certain archangel named Lucifer is :):):) Just as demon Dean shouldn't have been able to roam freely about the bunker when he tried to kill Sam; there are devils traps and all sorts of warding at different places on the floors and walls.
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-01-31 10:42
I suspect that much like the Prime Directive in Star Trek limited the action too much, the writers decided that a bunker warded against all evil was a waste of a set and so it just was quietly forgotten. They have some cover as to Crowley because he was brought to the bunker by Dean in 9.02 Devil May Care I'm guessing they lowered the wards against Crowley then and then didn't reinstate them. But let's face it people and creatures wander in all the time and Sam and Dean must have made a ton of extra keys what with Sam, Dean, Cas, and Kevin all being able to come and go as they please. Frankly, they probably hid one under a rock, just in case they lose theirs.

Lucifer is a great evil, but although the MOL were good, they weren't omniscient. Lucifer was seen as a myth, heck even the demons thought he was a myth, and they may not have had any idea they had to ward against him or had any reason to even try. If they knew anything it was that Lucifer was locked behind a number of seals and that 66 had to be broken in order to free him. So they worried about warding against less unique threats. The Bunker probably isn't warded against The Darkness either.
Freebird
# Freebird 2016-01-30 19:24
Thanks a lot, percysowner :)
Jen
# Jen 2016-01-30 21:29
I wasn't going to comment here, except to say Thank you for a well written reveiw Alice - I got the impression you enjoyed the show but had your reservations, which did come across in the tone of your words. Thats fine that is what this sites for and Thank you. I would like to add to some of the great ideas and theorys that you all have put across

1. I feel Cas is going to be the big sacrifice this season not the Boys everybody will be expecting a sacrifice like SD has suggested but I think Cas won't be able to beat Lucy and he beleives he has to redeem himself to Heaven and mankind. Also Cas would be the easiest to bring back in S12 if we have one.
2. I listened to a interveiw with J2 regarding Dean / Amara connection it is not a voodoo doll connection Amara can be sent back to the big beyond without affecting Dean. Jensen also said that when it comes to Amara in this second half - he will be relying on Sam to take the lead because Dean doesn't trust himself. Whether Dean tells Sam soon I don't know
3, SD also feels that part of Sam's character growth this season may be leading up to a sacrifice of either his brother or himself, I'm not leaning that way at all. I'm hoping that all these confessions / forgiveness /travels back in time with Lucy / is all to get Sam back to his former self He always had the stronger personality the strength and knowledge and convictions to do the right thing.
I'm hoping this is being shown as a type of clensing for Sam so he is ready to support his brother, who has either under a spell or a mind meld thing happening with Amara. I think Sam will be fighting more his brother than Amara to save him. Not in the physical sense but more as Family and free will
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-31 12:52
That could be it Jen. They have really been harping on Sam's apparently unwillingness to let loved ones die this season (which is a total laugh as that directly contradicts the entire premise of the start of season 8 and the Year of the Dog.) Maybe the 'loved one' Sam will have to sacrifice is Cas in order to defeat Amara and Luci and to save Dean. Still though, if anyone thinks that Dean is going to get any scenes of soul-searching and self realization into his own culpability in things they'd better think again. This show is incapable of such insights where Dean is concerned.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-31 20:59
Quote:
They have really been harping on Sam's apparently unwillingness to let loved ones die this season
Who is harping? I do not see it but am willing to take a look. The only one who said this was freaking Lucifer who was trying to manipulate SAM. You did see how Lucifer that Sam was weak for not looking for his brother and for saving him at all costs. It is not the show runners that think this it is LUCIFER, the Devil.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-02-02 08:24
Sam himself has said it several times already this season.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-31 13:56
Truthfully Jen, I hope you're wrong about Cas being the one who sacrifices himself. I like the character and I've been rooting for them to give him a better story line, but the brothers are the ones firmly at the center of the show, so I feel like the emotional stakes are high only if one of them is at risk. It will seem like a letdown to me if after the big build up of a return to the brothers saving all of the people, and confronting the biggest threat ever, it is Cas who sacrifices himself to save the day. Which is not to say that your theory is wrong, rather that I hope it's wrong.:)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-31 16:01
I agree....it's better if its Sam or Dean it's more intense that way. I am really not sure where the story is going to go. It could be Cas, the set up is there. It could be Dean who has to make the ultimate sacrifice and they seem to be setting up a Swan Song parallel where Dean has to get control of himself to defeat the big bad and Sam has to be willing to let Dean go and with all of the parallels to earlier seasons lately, that is my primary guess. I'll be a little disappointed if that's how it goes though. Dean really needs to learn a few things, and I'd like it especially if it was Sam to have to make that sacrifice. They've been harping on how Sam won't let Dean go and is willing to ruin the world to do so, but that's Dean's schtick also and has been for far longer than it has been so for Sam; doesn't Dean need to learn this same lesson? Supposedly he did learn that lesson in season 5, but nothing of his actions in recent years has shown that that lesson has stuck, especially not in season 9. So I for one would like for Dean's character to get some much needed development and it won't happen if he's compromised all season long.
debbab
# debbab 2016-02-01 10:24
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree that this episode is filler. It is a monster of the week that brings forward many issuesl The MOW premise is the distraction for the forward movement of Dean, Sam, Cas. The selection of music, the lighting, the choice of guest actresses, the use of a hearing impaired actress brilliant choices. Robbie Thompson manages to get in humorous lines. The parallels between Eileen and Sam are outstanding. Sam's confession to Dean- fandom has been waiting for 3 seasons. The chemistry between Eileen and Sam for many reasons. Sam's turn about. Dean's vulnerability. Have to admit I did not see this one coming in a MOW- that head banging scene-ouch.Dee Wallace is perfect and shows Dean another way. The follow your heart and Dean's "attraction to Amara-. How Dean still tells "Cas" before he can open up to Sam. How the boys are listening to each other without walking on their speeches. The performance of Misha as a toned down Lucifer/Pelligr ino- rolling up his sleeves-hint that it is not Cas. And that final set of scenes with Dean in his own mental cage of torture as Prison Grove plays- This is at least a 9.5 out of 10 IMHO. It hit so many good notes.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-01 15:00
i'm just not getting why everyone keeps using the word "blame" here. No-one in the last two eps have used or insinuated blame on anyone for anything, not Dean, not Sam, not even Lucifer. This episode isn't about blame at all.

Sam's confession was just that ...a confession. I don't even think he used the word 'sorry". He said i should've looked for you, when you were in purgatory i should've turned over every stone, but i stopped. This is a confession....a n unloading of his soul, his unburdening of his guilt...but no where did i hear sam say that he was sorry....becaus e there was nothing to be sorry for. Writer's apparently think so since they didn't write it in.

Look at Sam's confession....h e noted he should've looked for you, he should've turned over every stone...but he stopped. Now Luci, in his effort to manipulate sam, told Sam that he didn't even bother to look for dean( and i still believe it was look as in look for a way to bring him back)...luci didn't say to sam you couldn't even bother to try harder...you just gave up....now the fact that luck specifically told sam he didn't even bother to look indicates to me that Sam's stopping was immediate....an d as we know from his confession to Amelia,....stop ping really means imploding and running. So from Dean's non reaction to Sam's confession and Luci's you never even bothered, I'm pretty convinced that Sam broke immediately, considering in his mind he made a pact with Dean and there was nothing he could do....he ran away....

Lucifer didn't blame sam for not looking. he just noted that he didn't do it, but more than that, he noted when sam's true weakness began....it was when he quit. it was when he ran. it was hiding out with a woman and a dog. Luci simply noted to Sam that it was due to breaking that he's been carrying around this guilt and this guilt has been a driving force in sam, influencing his decisions and narrowing his focus on saving dean alone. Luci has pointed out to sam that his guilt has been his guide.

Sam had already come to this realization on his own, as we see in the first ep of the season and sam's realization that they have to change and cannot only live by half the bumper sticker. But it's his trip down memory lane that brought his feelings of guilt to the surface and his recognition that luci was correct in that Sam has let guilt be too much of an influence. Sam knows that this can't be anymore, so he gathered up his strength and he confessed to his brother and thus unburdened himself of all that guilt he kept deep down inside. he's free. for the most part....because sam is still very much like his brother and he is a winchester and sadly winchesters have been raised where they're not allowed to show weakness. If you noticed in Sam's confession, he still didn't use the words he used with Amelia...he still couldn't bring himself to explain in detail, his imploding and running....he simply used the word stopped. To actually use the words, to admit to dean flat out that he was weak.?...no way.....subtle is the way to go here....i think Dean can figure out, at this point, what stopped really means.

confession is good for the soul and now sam is free from the guilt he has buried deep down. now sam can do what it takes to kill the D without the burden of feeling like he could let his brother down. Now it's dean's turn to do some confessing..... i think he should start with the whole amara/bond thing.....hopef ully he'll follow sam's lead as he's done since the season began.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-02-01 21:05
Quote:
Lucifer didn't blame sam for not looking. he just noted that he didn't do it, but more than that, he noted when sam's true weakness began....it was when he quit. it was when he ran. it was hiding out with a woman and a dog. Luci simply noted to Sam that it was due to breaking that he's been carrying around this guilt and this guilt has been a driving force in sam, influencing his decisions and narrowing his focus on saving dean alone. Luci has pointed out to sam that his guilt has been his guide.
The only part I agree with is that Lucifer did not blame Sam for not looking for Dean. I think your thoughts are plausible but you made me think about my view on this and it is different. I think Lucifer is the master manipulator. Did Lucifer point out this decision in Sam's life because it IS when Sam broke and his true weakness began and allowed his guilt to be his guide through the rest of his life? I say no. I do not agree with any of your premises. I do not think Sam quit and was hiding out with a woman and a dog. I think he cared about Amelia chose it and finally had something he never had before- Sam's words in Season 8.1. I also disagree with your premises stated elsewhere that Sam was suicidal and/or attempted suicide when he hit the dog. I also refuse to believe that Sam is solely motivated or the driving force of Sam's decision to save his brother are motivated by guilt. I disagree that Sam's guilt is his guide. So why did Lucifer highlight this scene of being with Amelia and the dog? Lucifer's end game is to get Sam to believe that Sam is not fit to take on the Darkness that only he mighty Lucifer can do it and Sam has to say Yes and release him from the cage. Is Lucifer telling Sam that guilt is his guide and it makes him weak and he is pointing this out because he cares and does not want Sam to be weak? NO. He is capitalizing on a decision that Sam made to not or/ stop looking for his brother. Sam thought Dean was dead and moved on the best he could and ended up finding something he never had before. When Dean came back, Sam may have had some remorse or regret for not looking because his brother was alive and hurting and Kevin needed him and the demons were still causing death and destruction. After seeing all that, Sam may have felt bad. So Lucifer takes this regret and twists it into something dark that he thinks can be used to get his way. He wants Sam to think that all he felt was guilt and the guilt motivated him to save his brother and that it was all wrong and saving your brother means you are guilt ridden and weak, not capable of saving the world because you have to die and destroy yourself to defeat the Darkness and Sam is just too much of coward to do it now because all he cares about is brother. But Sam rose above all the feelings Lucifer wanted him to feel.... guilt, regret, inadequate, weak , doubtful, incapable. I think he also rose above Lucifer's planted seed that guilt and weakness is why you save your brother and it is wrong. Sam's final answer to Satan: "Is it? Really? 'Cause this is what I think, I think that whoever wins -- you or the Darkness -- everyone else loses. So no. My answer is no. This isn't because of Dean, or the past, this is about me having faith in my friends, having faith in my family. We will find a way. I'm ready to die and I'm ready to watch people I love die, but I'm not ready to be your bitch. Then after days of listening to Lucifer's words in his head he let out the his regret and let it go, you are right he never said he was sorry because he was not and he did not have to be sorry he just felt bad because he felt he should have looked because in retrospect that is the choice he wished he made and then when given the choice as Dean put it for one of them to be happy; to stay with Amelia, the normal life, and no hunting he made that choice to look out for his brother stay, carry on the business. Sam beat the devil with his faith and love after all in his friend and family particularly his brother: Sam " You'll taunt me, and you'll torture me, and I'll say 'no.' And eventually, sooner than you think, my brother is gonna walk through that door and kick your ass." And you know, that is what they, Sam with a little help from his friend, Dean did. Sam and Dean would have walked out of there without Castiel's rash decision to say YES. And why did Cas say Yes? because he was not as strong as Sam and they beat Cas down with the same tactic that Sam survived.
Castiel: You think I'm afraid to die?
Amara: I know you are, you reek of fear and self loathing. Oh, scary. She's right you know, you are expendable and weak. And why God took a special interest in you, I'll never understand. My brother always did have horrible taste in men. Amara used the same you are weak, afraid to die, fear, self loathing, doubt and brothers being wrong routine.
Amara certainly knows the way of the Devil.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-02-01 22:40
spnlit,
You have misinterpreted my post....I was giving my opinion on the interpretation of Lucifer's words....those are not mine. I had just written an very long post where I actually noted that Sam's time with Amelia was a sign of his strength, not his weakness. I did nothing but praise Sam for finding a way to survive the loss of his brother. While I don't agree that Sam was in love with Amelia, I do feel that he loved the normal life he got to live when he was with her. I think you can love someone and not be IN love with them. I think he loved her for being there when he needed her, for giving him something to focus on rather than his own grief, and for letting him be there for her. The relationship though wasn't founded or based on love, it was founded and based on grief and loss....that I do stand by. I thought Sam hitting that dog did save his life, and I'm not referring to any suicidal tendency. I do stand by my feeling that Sam was devastated at the loss of Dean. He himself used the words imploded and ran...Given that I find it totally plausible that Sam was in no state to be driving when he hit the dog. Now whether or not his grief pushed Sam to the point that he didn't care whether he lived or died...well we have seen in the past, Sam's willingness to die at the hands of Lilith...and as Ruby noted he didn't want to survive because then he'd have to go on without his brother. So there is precedence for Sam feeling this way.

Sam didn't seek out a normal life. He fell into it accidentally. He hit the dog and was made to feel guilty by Amelia to take care of it. He then sought a job at the motel as a handyman in the meantime. She lived in that motel and he recognized how broken she was and that's when their bond began to form. Don't get me wrong, he did find something while he was with her...I had noted that on many a post as well. Not only did he get to live a life, where the for the first time he was unburdened by the weight of the world, but in time he eventually found his strength again. Sam did leave Amelia before he even knew Dean was alive. During Sam's conversation with Amelia's father, he was reminded that they were two lost people simply holding onto ea. other. Sam knew he was right, and the call about Don just made him do what he was going to do anyway sooner.

As for the rest...like I said, I was noting what Luci said and what Luci was trying to get Sam to believe. I'm with you on him being the master manipulator. Luci told sam that he didn't bother to look, he hid out with a woman and a dog, but then dean came back and now sam's driven by guilt to do whatever it takes to save his brother.

Sam loves his brother more than anything. Nobody has faith in Dean the way Sam does and nobody sees the goodness in Dean the way Sam does. Absolutely guilt is not the primary force that guides Sam...hell that's the wrong word..i should never have used that word...influenc e ...I think I should've used that word, I like it much better....I apologize on using the word guide...it's not really what I meant. Love is the main reason Sam does what he does for his brother...alway s and forever....but I still stand by my premise that guilt influences Sam as well....and I'm not even referring to him not looking for Dean and the regret/remorse he feels there, dusted with a dash of guilt:p:, i'm talking about the deep down guilt that I believe he's buried but yet still remains from his inability to stop Dean from going to hell. I still think that Sam has never really forgiven himself for that...I still think Sam sees that as a fail on his part. Sam by nature does carry guilt as does Dean. Sam felt guilty for the action of soulless Sam ....sam spoke to dean a few times in s6 about having to make it right. Sam also felt guilty for Kevin...whether one might see that as rational or not...it was his hands that killed kevin and he suffered from the nightmares envisioning it over and over. He also told Cas in First Born to keep going with that needle, that he needed to do something right for once..as he also felt guilty for not closing the gates...if he had closed the gates, he would've died and thus he wouldn't have killed Kevin....So there is precedence that Sam is prone to guilt. There is also precedence that there have been times where Sam's actions were influence/motiv ated by his guilt. His desperate need to save Dean in s10 was most definitely an act of love, without a doubt....but I still think sam's guilt was also an influence as well, because he wasn't going to let his brother die again, and he certainly wasn't going to allow him to become a demon. Neither Sam or Dean are one dimensional cardboard cutouts....they are complex characters whose motivations/act ions are influenced by different emotions.

I'm totally with you on Sam's ability to rise above and see through Luci's manipulations and his attempt to get Sam to say yes....I've always,, always praised sam about his strength of character.... Sam is the strongest character on the show, even dean admitted to that.

Still, Sam's confession to dean......I should've looked for you, I should've turned over every stone, but I stopped and I've never forgiven myself for it..... So with that it leads me to believe that Sam's guilt lies with his notion that him stopping was his crime so to speak. now for me...stopping is equivalent to imploding and running. so Sam's burden seems to me, based on his confession what he's never forgiven himself for is the fact that he imploded and ran.....these are sam's feelings...not my feelings that sam should feel that way.

he's never forgiven himself for that...thus he's laden himself with the burden of guilt which he buried deep down....but I don't think he buried them deep enough, because I do think that sam's feelings of guilt for not saving dean from hell, compacted with feelings of guilt for the actions of soulless, the stopping, his believing he let dean down, him not closing the gates of hell, the actions of gadreel having him kill kevin, watching dean die again because of metatron, and then watching his brother become a demon......you mix that all up with the absolute love and adoration sam has for dean, and you're gonna get sam doing everything it takes to save his brother ......

I totally agree with you that sam and dean would've gotten out....cas saying yes to Lucifer reminds me a lot of him going to Crowley back in s6. Dean begged Cas to trust in them....in the three of them and Cas chose not to and look what happened ....now he's doing it all over again...

I still think amara and the devil are sympatico....no t so sure luci wants her gone....what if luci was looking for something in the bunker, not to destroy amara, but to help amara find/destroy God? :o:o
Sugarhi15
# Sugarhi15 2016-02-02 08:09
I watched the ep again last night to reaffirm my posts and in watching again it still hasn't changed my perception, and it's not about being stubborn

Sam had trouble sleeping because lucifer's taunts swam through his head. Sam actually told dean that luci showed him his greatest failure..his words not mine.

Sam also told Aileen or Eileen or whatever her name really was that his btother was always there even when he let him down.

Sam's exact words in confession "i should've looked for you. When you were in purgatory i should've turned over every stone, but i didn't...I stopped and i've never forgiven myself for it."

He could have ended it with i didnt and ive never forgiven myself and that would indicate his regret came only from not looking...but his statement of not forgiving himself came after "i stopped"...whic h as i stand my belief that stopping=Implod ing and running. Sam's speech in hunter heroici to the guy from "mash" also confirms my belief.

Mostly what confirms my belief as it occurred to me is Sam. When Sam left Amelia he could have gone anywhere if it was about simply moving on in his normal life, but Sam returned to the cabin. He didnt even know dean was alive at this point. I thought it very telling that of all the places sam chose to go, he went back to the place that represents all he ran from...at the time, it was the closest thing the boys had to what could be represented as home.

Given his speech in hunter heroici, ive always believed that had sam been given the chance, he wouldve started to look for kevin again. Dean's sudden reappearance soon to be followed by deans anger just aggravated the guilt sam already had buried. I do think that sam felt guilt because he told dean that he kept up with the news, he read the papers...seems to me that sam really couldnt let it go..he just couldnt do it...


And given the boys' attitude towards what they deem to be weakness,,,show ing it in any form is a big no no, because unfortunately in the winchester world if you seem weak you are a failure or disappointment to your brother...and both the boys have been raised in a manner that they see it that way...and that is the saddest part of all