For the next few months, I will be trying a different format for my "Threads" review series. This evolution has been brought about by real life challenges and changes in schedules for both me and Alice. Going forward, I will be posting on Thursday with her review moving to Friday. I am calling this experimental review approach “Threads Lite”. I will still track arc threads, dialog, clues and speculation but given the accelerated timing, my review will not include the plethora of screencaps or quotes that have previously added evidence to my theories. I hope the content continues to stimulate your analysis of the episodes, though. Please let me know what you think of the change! As we have recently learned once again, the Devil’s in the Details!

I loved Supernatural’s return from this year’s mid-season hiatus. The episode’s pacing blew me away. I don’t ever rate shows, but I’d give this one a 9.5 out of 10 (at least that’s my 24-hour overnight rating as I’m still reeling from the shock).

Absolutely Wonderful, Amazing, Fantastic Parts of this Episode

s11e10 32 Crowley in PJs

Crowley in a Onesie Pajama, and Crowley’s genuinely excited face when he sees Santa!

s11e10 163 ColinFord

The very short appearance of a grown-up Colin Ford as Teenage Sam!

s11e10 195 Cemetery Luci Sam

The reprise of the “Swan Song” climax.  “Swan Song”, and especially the climactic scene therein, is, in my opinion, the nucleus of the entire series. Showing just that brief clip brought its entire emotional impact, and fans’ emotional response, forward into this episode. My throat constricted and my breathing raced. Accompanied by the brothers’ musical theme (“Americana”), slightly different angles, new editing, seeing Adam, younger Sam, younger Dean – all of it - elicited an immense, immediate, emotional connection to this episode. I was thrilled the writers (and the plot) remembered it happened, and that Lucifer acknowledged Sam “stood toe to toe with me and won”. Mostly, I just loved seeing it again. It was a very powerful two minute segment in season 11.

s11e10 213 GroundZero

The shot of "Smiting Ground Zero", then later the Darkness being sucked back into Amara. Great visual effects but the future Earth it foreshadowed was even more powerful. 

Billie! I’m so happy she has a recurring role (not so happy about her intentions, though). I love hearing her powerful, melodic, threatening voice (speaking as well as singing).

Long shot of Liane Balaban as Amelia, plus their beautiful Aussie.

s11e10 66 Lucifer Closeup

Mark Pellegrino’s incredible portrayal of Lucifer. “Snapping Necks and Cashing Checks – it’s what I do.” What a great line!

Crowley: “Don’t worry about Sam.”  
Dean: “I’m sorry. Have you met me?” -  Perfect!

Lucifer mentioned Gabriel and Raphael (claiming they are both dead), and Michael (confirming he is still alive). Bringing their names up in dialog ignites a tiny flame of hope that Gabriel and Michael may come into play again (I accept that being exploded by Castiel when he was the “New God” was a definitive end to Raphael.)

Pellegrino dancing to “Heaven Must be Missing an Angel”! Fantastic!

The CageMatch! The lighting, the drama, protecting each other, the side conversations – everything.

The only time in 11 years when all five of the main characters have been in a scene together. Jared told us about this scene at ChiCon’s Meet and Greet, and it was fabulous to see such a great assembly of characters in one place.

Rowena confessing the root of her hatred of Crowley was a touching and wonderfully executed scene. I’m glad Ruth was given the opportunity to extend her character in her last episode. It was also redemptive for Crowley. He finally has some closure and maybe a path to accepting himself (Crowley being a completely redeemed good guy is part of my vision of the end of the series. I’ll tell you about it sometime.)

Annoying Parts of the Episode

Sam’s guilt over Amelia is what kept him from closing the Gates of Hell (season 8)? Really? I thought it was for love of his brother when Dean begged Sam to not die. Lucifer could have been lying to Sam to taunt him to say ‘Yes’ but I am very, very tired of people throwing that period of Sam’s life back at him like it was an inexcusable, blatant, undeniable mistake.

“We’re both expendable. That’s why we’re here, right? You help, but Sam and Dean Winchester are the real heroes” (- Statistics Angel to Cas). That hurt.  Just like Lucifer’s lecture to Sam about being weak, this was the second piece of dialog that was brutally harsh. It’s like Andrew Dabb broke the taboo and said aloud what people were thinking.

Cas: "You think I’m afraid to die?"
Amara: "I know you are. You reek of fear and self-loathing.”
I would never accuse Castiel of being afraid. Poor judgement? Yes, but cowardice? Never. I don’t think Amara would have any reason to lie to Castiel, so do the writers believe Castiel is afraid? Maybe Cas was afraid because he was face to face with God’s sister of immense power, but that’s not the way I interpret her accusation. She then repeated that he was weak and expendable. Was all this character assassination just posturing to get Castiel to make his big sacrifice later? Was it to prove that Amara is blind to strength of character, positioning her for a future downfall? I’m interested in your opinions because this entire dialog was curious, and thus, suspicious.

A split second more and Lucifer would have been back in the cage. A fraction of a second!! UGH!!!  

Closed (?) Threads

09

Sam getting trapped in the holding cell with Lucifer was NOT part of a grand plan. Sam really was shocked when the warding failed. Dean did NOT know that Sam was in the cell with Lucifer until he was told by Crowley.

Rowena DID betray everyone. The warding failure was totally her doing. Crowley was not complicit in the betrayal, proving yet again that he is true to his word. He does not go back on deals.

I’m not yet 100% sure Sam’s visions were from Lucifer…but the chance of them being from God, Gabriel, Billie or anyone else lessened with this episode. In the opening conversation between Sam and Lucifer, Sam specifically repeated “You. The visions, everything…it was all you.” and Lucifer took credit for the parlor tricks. Rowena also said Lucifer came to her in a dream, confirming that Lucifer WAS able to telepathically reach outside his cage. I’m still holding out a tiny bit of hope that he’s lying about Sam’s visions, though (hot dog vendor?). Anyone with me on this?

s11e10 587 RowenaCas

Rowena is dead. I knew it was going to happen when Lucifer started to talk to her in a sickly sweet tone but I did not have a hint of a glimpse of an idea before that moment that she would die mid-season 11. I was utterly shocked. I am sorry to lose Ruth Connell, but being perfectly honest, I am not sorry to end the Mega Coven and Crowley’s woebegone family plot lines. They were going nowhere, weakened Crowley and slowed otherwise great episodes. Her assurance to Lucifer that she was the only one who could use witchcraft to open his cage (to put him back I presume) may have simultaneously ended the myth arc’s emphasis on witchcraft. For that, I am eternally grateful as well.

New Threads and New Canon

“After he stops the darkness, Lucifer will ascend to his throne in Heaven” (- Rowena). So Lucifer sees himself as the new God. Amara also sees herself as the new God. I must have missed the job vacancy notice!

Smiting Sickness – Love it! Lot’s wife turning to salt. That explains so much!

s11e10 259 OpeningHellsGate

Doorway to Hell – This isn’t completely new canon. The Colt opened a Gate of Hell so there is precedent for doorways to Hell being on Earth (versus in Purgatory). The new part was a reaper opening the gate by touching Enochian symbols (I think it was Enochian). I guess they have to get souls into Hell somehow. The boys now have a local gateway in Nebraska. I bet the show uses that location again! Anyone have any problems or find any contradictions with this canon addendum?

Amara was obviously weakened! Is her new vulnerability a result of the smiting attempt, her consumption of grace, or her contact with Castiel?  Does this tie into how the archangels were able to defeat her? This is a significant development in season 11’s myth arc.

The Newest, Biggest, Most Shocking Thread Ever

s11e10 569 LuciCas

Castiel is now a host for Lucifer.  This might be the biggest twist of the series. What do you think? There have been several other shocking left turns in the Winchesters’ long and winding road but I didn’t pick up on any clues, foreshadowing or speculation that this would happen. It was a sucker punch too. Just when the audience relaxed, believing that Lucifer had been teleported back into his cage and the danger had passed; right after a tender scene meant to trigger sympathetic emotions; after Team Free Will reunited and the “brotherly moment” had passed in the Impala – that’s when the bottom fell out from under us.

Can an angel occupy another angel’s vessel? It is a physical body and its occupant gave consent. It was definitely Plan C but I can’t think of a reason why it couldn’t or shouldn’t have worked. Angels can’t occupy corpses because no one granted consent to use the body but this body was ‘handed down’. Jimmy gave it to Castiel who then gave it to Lucifer. This is worth further examination so let me know what you think. I think this is a first for angel canon!

I’m anxious to hear your input and reactions! What did you think of “The Devil in the Details”? Can you even begin to imagine how Sam and Dean are going to fix the world now?

Comments  

ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-21 22:22
Love your review and your perspective on things! Thanks so much for taking the time to write that!

I found myself very enticed and intrigued by this episode. It's definitely taken some story arcs in a new direction.

I loved the emotional moment we got between Crowley and Rowena right before she was killed. Needless to say, I'm sorry to see the actress go, but the character had it coming. She played with fire (literally), and got burned for it. Mark Sheppard's performance really grabbed me in that scene, though. If it weren't for his outstanding acting and mastery over his character, I might not have been as emotional as I was.

Castiel is now a vessel to Lucifer. I can't help but think the writers will find a way (i.e. A loophole) to explain this. The way I see it, Castiel *inherited* Jimmy's body after Jimmy died. So, it was fully up to Cas to say yes or no in that situation. The question remains though: where did Cas's Grace go?! We have never seen this before, so I feel like it's uncharted territory and there's tons of potential to expand the mythology of the show the writers have thus far created. I, actually, wouldn't be half surprised if we end up seeing Mark Pellegrino again in the near future STILL in the cage (the real cage). Only, instead of him being Lucifer, he would be Cas! Kinda of like a body swap scenario. That's, at least, one possible way to explain away having two Grace's in one vessel - maybe there just isn't. Maybe Jimmy's body is now Lucifer's vessel and Nick's body is Cas's vessel. Honestly, not for nothing, but I'd find it terribly hilarious and thoroughly enjoyable to see Mark Pellegrino playing his character *like Castiel*. lololol.

But anyway, that's just one theory. Another, and far more likely, is just that Cas is still in there, but he's suppressed somehow. Of course, the writers needed to give Cas a damn good reason to say Yes to the devil, even if the devil is his older brother. And there aren't many better reasons than feeling completely worthless and expendable. Cas has been suffering from some kind of PTSD ever since the Attack Dog spell. Hell, he's been suffering from guilt and PTSD and everything else ever since he *accidentally* ate all those souls and became "God". LOL. So, Cas losing all self-worth and feeling like the only thing left for him to do for the world is to kill himself (essentially) has been a long time coming. The Statistics Angel's words were just the icing on the cake to push him over the edge and make him lose any hope or faith he may have had in himself to keep going. I truly believe that is why Cas said yes. I think, emotionally, he's broken and depressed and fearful of always doing more harm than good. And I think that's EXACTLY what Amara was referring to when she said she could smell the fear in him. I don't think she was referring to a physical fear. More so a haunting fear that no one really loves you and that you aren't ever going to make any kind of difference in the world no matter how hard you try. And gosh, that just breaks my heart when it comes to Castiel. Because he really does just try so so hard. I can't help but feel so bad for him. He truly has fallen in virtually every way possible and now he's even fallen far enough to the point where he's saying Yes to the devil. I mean, *technically*, Cas just KINDA-SORTA committed suicide. He sacrificed himself for the whole world, and he did so truly believing that the whole world really wouldn't miss him. Ugh. Oy, my poor heart. Especially since I have this theory that Castiel is actually the youngest of all the angels (i.e. The baby of the family).

Now, as for Amara, the part I found most interesting is how weakened she was after she sent Cas away. So, she's back, but not fully. I still don't know enough about her or have a good enough perspective on her given that she'd God's sister to make any real assumptions about her. Needless to say, I'm curious, but I still find her story line to be a bit too soap-operish for my taste. Hopefully, she'll have less tantrums and will be more menacing in the future so I can gain some more respect for the character. Until then, I'm just going with the flow with her.

One thing that DOES annoy me about the Amara arc is that the Archangels fought her! Wth?! When they first introduced her, she was supposed to be pre-biblical and before any Angels. I distinctly remember her being explained as a "scary bedtime story" for the Angels and that none ever believed her to be real. And now, all of a sudden, all of the archangels have always known about her and had fought her? Im just so confused. I wish I wasn't. Lol.

And yes!, I HAVE to believe that Gabriel is still alive. I just want to believe it so badly, so in going to keep on believing it as long as I can. I knew the holiday scene would be real, but Mark Sheppard in the onesie was more hilarious than I could have ever predicted. Him in that get up NEEDS to be a Pop Toy figure. Pleeeaaaase!!!!

Over all, great episode and great set up for the rest of the season. I can't wait for more!
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-22 08:01
Quote:
The question remains though: where did Cas's Grace go?!
I just assumed Cas is still co-occupying Jimmy's body. When angels assume a live human's body, the human's soul (and personality) remain within the body. They become subservient, or maybe dormant is a better word, to the more powerful presence but they are still in there. I actually thought Castiel might have an even better chance of overriding Lucifer eventually because at least Castiel is an angel, one step higher in power than a human. Since Sam was able to overpower Lucifer, I'm confident Castiel will eventually as well - but first he needs to believe in himself again and understand that he is not expendable to the boys or the world.
Quote:
Now, as for Amara, the part I found most interesting is how weakened she was after she sent Cas away. So, she's back, but not fully.
Maybe this will slow down her rampage of havoc a while. I think her weakening is definitely a clue to how to re-cage her. It shows she is not unbeatable.

As far as her timeline, she did predate the angels but she was still alive and kicking when God created the archangels. Maybe God created the archangels specifically because he needed warriors to help him defeat her. Think of her as the archangels' 'aunt' - predated in birth but still around after they were 'born'. She has history before they were created but they still have shared history afterward. You might extend the analogy and consider her the great-aunt of the normal angels, who were created after the archangels. They are 'younger', maybe created after she was caged, so they do not have a shared history with her.

Quote:
I don't think she was referring to a physical fear. More so a haunting fear that no one really loves you and that you aren't ever going to make any kind of difference in the world no matter how hard you try.
I totally buy this and hadn't considered it in this way. Thank you. That helps me.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 13:34
Quote:
I actually thought Castiel might have an even better chance of overriding Lucifer eventually because at least Castiel is an angel, one step higher in power than a human. Since Sam was able to overpower Lucifer, I'm confident Castiel will eventually as well -
OK, I agreed with almost all of your threads but this I completely disagree with. :) Not just because it would drastically diminish the amazing strength of will that allowed Sam to triumph over Lucifer, but also because I disagree that an angel would naturally be stronger and better able to resist. Angels have always been portrayed as followers who blindly, unquestioningly do as they're told by their superiors. Even when they were suddenly handed free will after Metatron's spell, mostly they were uncomfortable with it. Cas himself completely fit that mold, until the gradual process of thinking for himself began in S4. But even since then, he rarely seems to trust in himself and his own judgment and has expressed repeatedly that he does not want to be a leader. So the mere fact of being an angel IMO makes him LESS likely to be able to resist his "brother." Even aside from his status as an angel I think he should be much less likely than Sam to overpower Lucifer. Cas has shown much growth over the seasons, but it has come in fits and starts, with as many steps backwards as forwards. In terms of strength of will and determination, Sam has displayed those qualities more prominently and convincingly than Cas ever has. No knock on Cas, because he has many great qualities, but in its uncertainty about what to do with the character, the show has often portrayed him as weak and indecisive.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2016-01-22 16:47
Thank you. This is the part of the this storyline that really bugs me. Sam Winchester was supposedly "the least" of all of them and he overcame Lucifer and saved the world. I'm going to be seriously annoyed if they do something to diminish that sacrifice. And I agree 100% that Castiel's angel status does not make him more likely to be able to do it. I think it might help him, but Sam is Lucifer's "true" vessel. Sam is the only person on this show who seems to learn from his mistakes. Castiel appears to be incapable of it.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-22 17:06
I agree that of all the characters on this show, Sam has the greatest strength of character. He has more inner strength than anyone else, imo.

Angels may be more powerful, but you are right, most (if not all of them) don't even realize they have willpower. Castiel and Gabriel were the only two that ever made any reference to having free will. Maybe Balthazar knew that, but he was definitely not a leader.

But, to be honest, I don't even think Castiel said "yes" with the intention or hope of one day overpowering him. I think Cas said "yes" because he believed that he was expendable, as the previous scene with him suggested. Sadly, I don't think Cas has any intention at all of defeating his older brother. This was his sacrifice, in many ways, his final and fleeting attempt to make a difference in the world knowing & believing that the world won't miss him when he's gone.

And what I think is gonna come out of that is Dean and Sam both fighting and risking their lives to save Cas. And when they do (I have to assume they will), Cas will realize that his friends DO care if he dies and they DONT view him as "expendable". So, I predict it'll be a neat little story arc of development for his character by having Cas remove himself from the equation while creatively keepin Misha in the mix of the show.

And when you think about it, this is really the most danger Cas has ever been in. When he was "God", he wasn't really in danger and when the Leviathans took over, there was no way to save anyone at that time. And when he was in a coma and lost his mind, he wasn't nearly as deep in the hole as he is now. He's right under the Devil's thumb, and that's pretty final. So, it'll be interesting to see just how hard and long the brothers will fight to save Cas.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 18:00
Quote:
I agree that of all the characters on this show, Sam has the greatest strength of character. He has more inner strength than anyone else, imo.


You just won this Samgirl's heart ScifiSpirit, and I'm not going to disagree with you.:)
As to this point:

Quote:
But, to be honest, I don't even think Castiel said "yes" with the intention or hope of one day overpowering him. I think Cas said "yes" because he believed that he was expendable, as the previous scene with him suggested. Sadly, I don't think Cas has any intention at all of defeating his older brother. This was his sacrifice, in many ways, his final and fleeting attempt to make a difference in the world knowing & believing that the world won't miss him when he's gone.


I agree that that seems to be the way they have framed this arc for Cas, with the somewhat ham-handed dialogue by Amara and bureaucrat angel to Cas. And I would infinitely prefer the plot that you suggest, in which Sam and Dean rescue Cas, proving his worth to them. But as a many times bitten, extremely shy Sam fan, I'm not altogether convinced that this story line for Cas won't end up trumping or overshadowing Sam's victory over Lucifer. I truly hope that you're right, because it could prove to be a good story for Cas and the brothers.
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-24 07:32
Quote:
I think Cas said "yes" because he believed that he was expendable, as the previous scene with him suggested. Sadly, I don't think Cas has any intention at all of defeating his older brother. This was his sacrifice, in many ways, his final and fleeting attempt to make a difference in the world knowing & believing that the world won't miss him when he's gone.
This is an extremely interesting point. Did Cas have time to think through any of the implications of giving Lucifer a vessel? I'm torn on how well thought out was his decision. At face value, he simply asked Lucifer, "Can you really defeat the Darkness?". I agree that foremost on his mind was 1)seeing Amara untouched from the greatest weapon Heaven could amass. Given Castiel's immense respect or faith in Heaven's power, that had to leave him feeling helpless. Amara confirmed he was afraid; and 2) two beings telling him he was expandable or worthless. I agree that his act was to sacrifice himself in a desperate attempt to do something useful with his 'life' while giving the world a weapon that might work against Amara. The counter thought is that I have always considered Castiel a good strategist in battle. He was a famous warrior in heaven before he started running around with the boys. He knows how to win wars. I believe he was giving the "heroes" a weapon they could use. Wouldn't he know, though, that Lucifer would compound the problem? Do you think he had time to think about the "flip side" (as Bobby would put it) of his action? Wouldn't he have in mind some end game? Which would win out - his crisis in confidence (expendable/let someone else figure this out/I'm just a weapon) or his training and experience as a strategist (confident the boys would figure something out/one thing at a time)?
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-26 16:41
Quote:
The counter thought is that I have always considered Castiel a good strategist in battle.
I've actually never considered this. Admittedly, I have my own thoughts about Castiel's past, before he met the Winchesters, so that is probably influencing my thinking now. But, to be honest, I never saw Castiel as a good "Strategist", per say. A good "warrior"? YES. A good "fighter"? YES. Exceptionally skilled and good at being a soldier, which is what he was when we met him? YES. But, a "strategist"? No, not really. I think Castiel has been lucky in battle, for lack of a better term. I think he's impulsive and reactionary and trusts his gut instinct more than his 'angelic programming'. I think if he was a good strategist, then he would have thought through his deal with Crowley more carefully, back in season 6 to find Purgatory. But, he impulsively said yes to Crowley and only saw the possible outcomes of the near future. He didn't think through any of the longer implications. And he made the same mistake with Metatron later on, which ended up costing him dearly.

But, speaking of Crowley and Metatron, those are two people I would say *are* good strategists. Crowley ALWAYS seems to have an endgame in mind, or a back up plan, or a *mysterious way* to get things done. (hint hint, lolololol). And Metatron, the master writer/author, definitely placed his pieces on the chess board very carefully, he had a clear plan and it was executed perfectly, according to him. Of course, he ultimately lost in the end, and is human now, but that doesn't mean the plan wasn't there to begin with.

My thoughts on Castiel is that he was always a little awkward, as we've come to know him. Going back to before he met the Winchesters, I would say this: He had to work hard to be the brute soldier, which is evident when we first meet him in season 4. Uriel was constantly yelling at him and putting him in his place. And, I think a result of his awkwardness and nerdiness (and adorableness, lol) would be, in simplest terms, him not having much of a social life while he was an angel. So, that means that while the other angels were just being angels and following their orders and such, Castiel had really nothing better to do *but* to train. He worked hard to be the soldier that he was and made captain of his garrison. He focused entirely on his mission and became the best at it, really. He was (and is) extremely skilled in fighting, which is why I think he was able to get to Dean and free him and succeed, where other angels had failed. He's clearly an excellent fighter and was a trusted leader because he knew how to do his job well, but I think it ended there. His job was to be a 'soldier'. And soldiers are best at following orders, not strategizing, not necessarily leading. So yeah, I've taken a few liberties with my theory there. But it's my way of tying in his personality with the way the other angels treat him. For me, at least, it all seems to fit. idk. lol.

So, to go back to the topic, I do believe that Castiel made an impulsive and rash decision to say 'yes' to Lucifer. I don't think he thought anything through. He based his decision on his feelings. And, at the time, he was feeling pretty expendable and feeling like he really hadn't accomplished much or made any kind of a difference, despite all of his efforts. I do think his decision, like most of his decisions, was foolish and ill-conceived. But, I'm hopeful that it's an arc they are building for him where it will end with him realizing just how valuable he is and has been, and not at all expendable. We'll see.
blsedbx3
# blsedbx3 2016-01-21 22:32
Amazing part of the show : I find things in different perspectives the amazing part of the show was for me when Rowena told Crowley the reason of her hatred towards him . Even though it would have been customary in Middle aged Scotland for the Lords to have sex with any peasant girl married or no .. I enjoyed the writers telling and using a part of historical fact . I loved the fact that the pain she would have felt then came across the screen in perfect form and adulation for her as an actress.
I also loved and laughed my ass off at the fact the reindeer head band "wont come off "... hilarious .
Annoying parts : Was not for me the conversation between Amara and Cas . Cas I believe is afraid . It is clear he has met her and knows her more than we know . I got the feeling that he knew her before she was betrayed and expelled from Heaven. I believe that she was jealous of him because God saw him as his favorite. I kept going back picturing God and Amara as children in a Greek realm where they were the children of the upper class and Cas was the servants child asked to come play with them, in the same house. Cas would be afraid because he knows his place and could be killed for overstepping the bounds of hierarchy. I also think God created the angels and Cas was the first and he is the first to be endowed and allowed to come to earth to witness the creation of humans and interact, he gained what God could not ..feeling and being like his images on earth. Cas is not only afraid of being smote by Amara but afraid of leaving his friends and the life he has grown accustomed to. How can he give up humanity and feelings he has learned and felt and then go to Heaven and never allowed to do that again. This conversation was vague but I really think Cas may be the best friend of God and Amara as children and that is why she didnt kill him. He may have been the friend to both and the mediator of the fight . She wanted a favor and I believe she switched bodies with him . Because we see Amara next staggering and looking dazed and like she doesnt belong . Then we see Cas looking totally afraid and freaked out. I believe she took over Cas body and is there to kill Lucifer because she know knows what is going on by reading Cas's mind or hearing the angels talk . More explanation down the line .
Closed Threads
Well one Im so happy was closed was the fact Lucifer did not rape or molest Sam , he wouldnt hurt a hair on Samanthas head .. Thank you BoBO and Andrew. I dont think this is the last we see of Rowena so she is not a closed option in my book ... Reason. She is a witch , alive for hundreds of years possibly immortal... either way Heaven wont take her soul . She cant go to purgatory because she is human in form , and Hell doesnt want her ... so this leaves her as a ghost ? In the promos I have seen shows a vengeful scary black entity and I believe its her . I also believe Crowley , like he did for Dean, can bring her back with a spell out of the book . Crowley is always 2 steps ahead . He has a plan and has planned for every contingency if it happens . So this is not closed .
NEW CANON
I dont think Amaras weakness comes from Cas ... he was not an archangel.. It took all the Archangels and God to get rid of her so one angel cant do that . as above I explained her weakness... she traded bodies into a weaker form . I think we are headed to a new step into dealing with immortality and lives .. because as with Billie we are constantly being on the edge of our seats hoping the boys dont screw up and get killed by accident ... because we know they will die for good . Which by the way ... who is playing Death ... we have to have a Death who goes around touching people .. the Reapers just carry the souls to what ever eternity its earned . Hence the door to Hell a well guarded secret and hidden from all by the reapers and Death . Only for supernatural beings and souls to use ... which now how the Hell does Dean just walk in . ???Hmm. Who is Billie working for ... Crowley, is he the new Death and we dont know yet . So we have to find a way to make sure the boys stay alive for they are the saviors of the world after all.
NEW Thread
Well here is what I have been explaining all over the page . Is that Lucifer in Cas's body? Lets play this scenario and see what you think . 1st Cas is full angel , he was blown up by Lucifer in Stull hence the memory visit (detail) then in the episode he came back he was asked how. He said God put him back together and Jimmy's Vessel and soul was finally given up to Heaven in past episodes. God made Cas in the form he was accustomed to and one that tthe boys knew . So this is not a human vessel its all Cas. 2. Amara and the weakness and favor (detail) she asked him for. The surprise in boths face . I believe she is in Cas and infiltrated Hell to kill Lucifer before he gets her . There is a moment of weakness in Lucifer transferring into the body so he can be killed during this time , but I think Amara(Cas) sent Lucifer back to his cage at the same time Rowena cast the spell . 3. If Lucifer was in Cas he would have killed Dean and Sam right off the bat . 4. When Cas (amara) asks Rowena if she is the only one that can open the cage , well if it was lucifer he would have known that answer to the question already, so why ask it . (Detail) So Amara pretending to be Lucifer in Cas kills Rowena not knowing she is a witch..so Lucifer the only one that can kill her will never get out again. 5. Then after saying a friendly goodbye to the boys which was creepy. Dean too calm like he is when Amara is around , and Sam acting like he has formed a new arch in the relationship with Cas. But ( Cas/Amara) is sizing up the loved brother of her love Dean. If you want to win your hearts desire killing his brother wont gain you a thing . Finally 6. Cas/Amara is seen coming back to Crowley and telling him we need to talk ... yeah sounds like she needs help and a person to run Hell while she finds God and ascends to Heaven. She is fixing to enlist the help of the Devil to gain her ambition under the subterfuge of being Lucifer and keeping Crowley in fear ... She keeping her enemies closer ... details details ... She will be next to the boys and learn Dean and gain his trust as Cas , keep Crowley under control by fear as posing as Lucifer .. She is positioning herself for anything . But here is the thing Crowley is smart .. he knows Lucifer will kill him unless its for a good reason, Crowley knows lucifer will kill the boys so he is going to know and catch on that this is not Lucifer ... will he need mommys help to cast Amara out of Cas body .. yes so he will probably sceme behind the scene. He himself cares about the boys and still as King of Hell needs to keep things status quo so he gets souls for hell . So the new canon is all archangel are in the box, darkness is loose on the world and after two things Dean's companionship and find God and destroy him . Sam hopefully will get a vision from Lucifer and eventually question is Cas ... Cas? If not who and then have to go through the jealousy of Dean and Cas's relationship as it becomes tighter ... Sam will have to save Dean im figuring ... And to last question of new Canon is Where is Cas ? is he in Amara's immortal body powerless and left wondering around with no memory... hmm Here's hoping God is watching and moving the chess pieces around to his enjoyment to see and learn why from the boys interaction in jealousy and how they deal with it he learns to find the truth of why the sister he had is back and why they had to part .. he is the puppet master using the problems of the boys to answer his own existence and learn .... I see God has left to find himself and reflect and grow by watching the boys overcome every hell thrown at them. Its called Life and its a hard lesson to learn.
Annie
# Annie 2016-01-22 02:59
Thank you for your full detailed new thread version. It's really intriguing! I have only one obsevation about Cas being God's best friend. More than once Cas said that he's never seen God. He went looking for him, but found nothing. Could it be explained by Naomi's multiple resetting of Castiel's opertive system?
Jen
# Jen 2016-01-22 06:50
You have obviously put alot of thought into this idea of Cas/Amara, but it just doesn't fit. It doesn't feel right I don't have anything to back this up just a feeling
The idea that Cas is in Lucy's original cage that is possible in the promos Dean says to Sam "We will save Cas, ice the devil and destroy the darkness" so they have there hands full,
Nightsky your new version of threads is good but I did love your very indepth with pictures story telling.
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-22 08:10
Love your theory that Castiel is the oldest of the normal angels and thus has more connection with humanity and is God's favorite. (I'm reminded of Lore in StarTrek Next Generation, who was created first and given human emotions but when that 'experiment' didn't work out, the later model, i.e. Data, was created without emotions).

Quote:
I believe she took over Cas body and is there to kill Lucifer because
Wow, that's a powerful new theory! Intriguing but I don't think I saw enough evidence to agree. I'll watch for it though.

My theory is that Billie is Death. That's why she takes it so personally that they need to stay dead. Why would your everyday reaper take such a personal interest in Sam and Dean? I think I made a case for that after 11.02 when she first appeared (I'd have to go back and see if I actually wrote it out or just thought it!)
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-22 09:26
I honestly can't believe that Castiel is the oldest. I can accept that Naomi has wiped his mind several times and that might explain why he always appears so naive about things at times, but it still doesn't add up with Kripke's original mythology. Michael was the oldest brother, *the quintessential* oldest brother, meaning that there was no one older than him. And lucifer was the younger one. That was the whole point of that apocalypse storyline with Dean and Sam. So, for Castiel to suddenly be older than all of his brothers just doesn't vibe properly.

I actually believe the exact opposite. I believe that Castiel is the youngest angel. And, for me, it really fits. I can draw parallels to him with the kid from Home Alone (who was also the youngest of that large family). But, aside from that, him being youngest allows for him to be "singled out" and "special", so it satisfies this situation we are dealing with where Cas is *clearly* different than all of his brothers and sisters. It accounts for his constantly screwing up and screwing things up. If he was the youngest of his siblings, then metaphorically speaking, he was sitting at the kiddie table while everyone else was at the grown-up table, so they would know more about running things and he'd often be left out or left behind. And if he ever did "try to help", he'd usually do it wrong or mess it up resulting in them wiping his mind. I attribute that to Angels just being lousy older siblings. Instead of teaching him how to be a grown-up angel like all of them, they would just remove the faulty parts of his brain and clean up his spilled milk, so to speak. It seems like they've been cleaning up after him for a while (at least that's the impression I got from Naomi). Also, being the youngest means he might not have had a massive amount of friends like all his older brothers/sister s. So he would have buried himself in his work and his mission and the result of that would be that he's an exceptional fighter and very capable - hence he was captain of his garrison. Lacking a social life would afford him the opportunity to focus on his job and his mission more. And that, it seems, has resulted in almost everyone underestimating him time after time after time after time. :) So, that's where I'm coming from with Cas. :)

And I actually really like your idea about Billie being Death. VERY interesting!!! Although i would be heartbroken if we never see that actor again who played the original Death, but maybe Billie is just a byproduct of all that's happened. I really believe that you can't "kill" Death, but obviously something happened. One thing though, Death was always so famously neutral about things. He's *let* God (not sure if Let is the right word) resurrect countless people in the past, why suddenly care about all that now? Why suddenly put your foot down? Maybe it's because Sam and Dean were the ones that "killed" him, so now he *is* taking it personally.... I could buy that. I still get sad at the thought of never seeing the old Death again, but your idea that Billie is Death (or maybe she's the first real Grim Reaper we've met and we just don't know it yet) is a really really good one!
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-24 07:40
Quote:
Michael was the oldest brother, *the quintessential* oldest brother, meaning that there was no one older than him. And lucifer was the younger one. That was the whole point of that apocalypse storyline with Dean and Sam. So, for Castiel to suddenly be older than all of his brothers just doesn't vibe properly.
I should clarify what I was thinking. Michael and Lucifer are archangels, a separate breed or 'generation' of angel. They absolutely came first. I was considering the possibility that Castiel was the oldest of angels 2.0, i.e. he is the oldest of the 'normal' line of angels. I like the idea that he identifies with humans so much because he's been around them the longest. You make a compelling argument that he is the youngest, and it all fits, but I guess I more strongly believe that the normal angels were all created at once and that this isn't a birth order thing going on. I like knowing your alternate scenario, though. It's kind of fun to think about.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-26 17:00
Quote:
I was considering the possibility that Castiel was the oldest of angels 2.0, i.e. he is the oldest of the 'normal' line of angels. I like the idea that he identifies with humans so much because he's been around them the longest. You make a compelling argument that he is the youngest, and it all fits, but I guess I more strongly believe that the normal angels were all created at once and that this isn't a birth order thing going on. I like knowing your alternate scenario, though. It's kind of fun to think about.
Ah! I see! That does help me. I did misunderstand you. And, honestly, it's not a bad theory. Perhaps he is the oldest. My thinking though, is that he's always seeming to screw things up. And it makes more sense to me that if he's gonna be this little screw up (correction: adorable screw up), then he wouldn't necessarily be the oldest. I remember in Season 9, he and Sam were paired off for a while and Castiel had said something to Sam along the lines of: "The only one who has screwed up more than you, is me." So, I draw from that and see some similarities between the two. I mentioned it elsewhere, but I think I'm going to make a post about it in the discussion forum and put all my thoughts in one place on this subject, but, to me, Castiel has always been treated like a younger brother. Dean has referred to him as a "kid" a few times, and the other angels always seem to be trying to either tell him what to do or clean up after his spilled milk. lol. They are always seeming to underestimate him, too. Like they wouldn't expect anything more from him, because he's just a kid, and then poof!, he surprises them with winning a fight or trying to take charge. I can seriously go on an on with some examples and parallels, like I can make with the kid from Home Alone, but I'd rather not clutter up this response. I think, sometime soon, I'll make that post so that I can better organize my thoughts and give people a chance to respond and tell me what they think.

But, in what I quoted from you, you seem to say two different things. Quote:
I was considering the possibility that Castiel was the oldest of angels 2.0, i.e. he is the oldest of the 'normal' line of angels.
and Quote:
but I guess I more strongly believe that the normal angels were all created at once and that this isn't a birth order thing going on.
I definitely like the idea that the 'normal' angels were NOT all created at the same time. I don't know why, but for me, it would solve a lot of story telling problems if the angels weren't all the same exact age. Many of them seem to have different experiences and personalities from each other for them all to be clones or equals, in some way. I think some are older and some are younger. Cas could definitely be the oldest of them. But, given his awkwardness, his inclination to screw things up, his memory always being wiped by Naomi, his virginity when we met him, etc etc etc.....he just seems like the youngest to me. And, to go along with what you're saying, I think him being the youngest explains why he would know humans more. God, according to the show, made angels and then he made humans. So, if Castiel was made last, it would stand to reason that he would be the most human like, given that humans were made right after him. Maybe that makes sense, lol. Even in The Man Who Would Be King, during his famous soliloquy, he mentioned: "an older brother telling me not to step on that fish, big plans for that fish." I never really thought he was talking about an Archangel in that statement. Because if there's only 4, why not just say the name, lol. It seemed like a more general statement about a general angel to me.

Anyways, that's where i'm at with it. Hopefully, one day, we'll get more backstory and more insight into Castiel. I think many of us would love that, for sure.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 07:29
I agree with almost every word of your thread-lite Nightsky.
Quote:
Doorway to Hell – This isn’t completely new canon. The Colt opened a Gate of Hell so there is precedent for doorways to Hell being on Earth (versus in Purgatory). The new part was a reaper opening the gate by touching Enochian symbols (I think it was Enochian). I guess they have to get souls into Hell somehow. The boys now have a local gateway in Nebraska.
Suddenly having Purgatory easily accessible undermined the whole story of S6, but you're right that as early as S2 we were made aware that there were multiple access points to hell. That doesn't really diminish the idea of hell as being a dreadful place, because who the hell wants to get INTO Hell? :) It's getting out that's the trick. And it's true that reapers would of course need access to it to ferry the damned souls there.

I agree 100% about Rowena. I had a love/hate relationship with the character which depended entirely on how she was written. I thought she had a phenomenal last episode and an excellent send-off. And I agree that what I particularly hated about the character was the whole "mommy issues Crowley" story, so I'm glad that was seemingly wrapped up, in quite a moving way I might add. I too hope the idea of witchcraft as the cure all and solution for every problem is now over, though that pesky BOTD and codex is still out there.

I'm with you on the thought/hope that not all of Sam's visions were from Luci, particularly the John vision. It doesn't fit in with the rest, and I've decided that it will be revealed at some point that the vision was from an agent of God (Gabriel?:)) and Sam will ultimately be vindicated in his faith. Wishful thinking? Maybe, but I'm clinging to it.

As far as the S8 reference:
Quote:
I am very, very tired of people throwing that period of Sam’s life back at him like it was an inexcusable, blatant, undeniable mistake.
AGREED! 'nuff said.

I share your feelings about the set up for Cas agreeing to be possessed, in that I think the words of Amara and functionary angel were supposed to provide the motivation, but not convincingly enough IMO. Cas has gone through many ups and downs, but nothing that he has said or done this season has laid the groundwork for this plot twist. It was a rash, foolish decision that seemed quite OOC to me. My one thought is that, as another poster suggested, Amara might somehow be behind it, and that she did more to Cas than carve a warning on his chest. It's an intriguing possibility that Amara shares some kind of special bond with Luci as he was the original bearer of the MOC, we'll see if the story goes in that direction. I also was not thrilled with what we saw of Casifer, I hope it gets better.

I loved and agreed with every item on your list of fantastic aspects of the ep, especially the Swan Song revisit. It gets me every time. I loved, loved LOVED how Lucifer himself expressed not just respect for Sam, but the acknowledgment that he saved the world.
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-22 08:28
Quote:
Cas has gone through many ups and downs, but nothing that he has said or done this season has laid the groundwork for this plot twist.
Interesting thought that the dialog was so blatant because it was trying to very quickly convince us of something that hadn't been introduced into the plot before. Yet, it seems that Dabb just addressed the elephant in the room: critics/fans have been observing for a while that Cas doesn't really have a place of his own in the plot. The show/plots have never overtly acknowledged this before, so he did it all at once, in one episode. Clumsily abrupt, but an effective reset of Cas that finally called it out for what it was and addressed it.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-22 08:18
This episode was a lot better written that the prior one but there were problems, as Nightsky can attest to by some of my tweets during the show :)

I've always liked Mark Pellegrino's portrayal of Lucifer but it is starting to border on the campy. The book is still out on Misha playing Lucifer; in this episode he appeared to be doing an impression of Mark Pellegrino playing Lucifer so we'll see how it goes. It also didn't surprise me so I guess it lost a lot of its impact in that regard.

That line from Sam about his brother coming to save him and kick Lucifer's ass was kind of silly and out of character, at least to me. Really enjoyed Sam and Lucifer's stroll down memory lane; well done. Never would have guessed we would see Amelia again, even in a flashback. Was Andrew Dabb poking fun on Carver's decision to have Sam not look for Dean? I still don't buy in to that whole "agreement" thing. Thinking that their brother was dead has never stopped one of the Winchesters before. I could buy in to the fact that Sam was broken, may have snapped, or was even trying to kill himself when he hit that f'ing dog, but some context/POV on this would have been helpful instead of leaving fans to try to fill in all the blanks. I did like the fact that Sam ultimately started placing his faith in the right things, himself and his family. In the Supernatural universe, God is not deserving of faith.

Rowena, in the hands of one of the better writers, has been a welcome addition to the show. This was one of her better episodes. But that's kind of been the problem with her; in the hands of some of the writers, she has come across as annoying and campy. I knew she was a goner the minute she made a deal with Lucifer.

Based upon what Carver has said, as well as Lucifer, there's no reason to believe that any of Sam's visions were from anyone BUT Lucifer. Which is a shame because everyone was discounting it early on because it was so obvious.

Are the comments from Lucifer about Sam going soft and prissy indicating we're going to see some changes in Sam's character for the rest of S11? I realize Lucifer was trying push Sam into being his vessel but there was more than a grain of truth to a lot of what Lucifer said. Sam did reply "My answer is no. This isn't because of Dean or the past. This is about me, having faith in my friends, having faith in my family. We will find a way." so I think this is something to watch for.

A bit of a canon issue with the smiting sickness; when Castiel told Dean the last time this happened, Lot's wife was turned to salt (which kind of matches the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible). In 6.03, The Third Man, Lot's Salt (Salt Crystal) was used as an angelic weapon by Balthazar to turn Raphael's vessel in to a pillar of salt in order to save Castiel. This one didn't bug me much but the entire archangel vessel thing is a big problem.

Towards the end of S4, and early S5, a big deal was made of the fact that archangels were special cases and needed specific vessels. Michael referred to it as a bloodline thing, going back to Cain and Abel. For regular angels, they could use any suitable human vessel, and not all humans can be vessels; we learned this graphically in 9.03 I'm No Angel when one of Buddy Boyle's followeres exploded when she tried to be an angel vessel. When Lucifer had to take Nick as a vessel in 5.01, he called it an improvisation and you could see Nick's vessel deteriorating over the course of Season 5. Furthermore, Nick had to consume a lot of demon blood in order to keep from exploding. Now, all at once, Lucifer is able to use an empty vessel already being used by another angel? There are big logic problems with this; it's been established, and I can buy into, that Jimmy is an empty vessel being used by Castiel and that Jimmy's soul is already in heaven. If this is the way it worked, then why wouldn't Lucifer kill Sam and wait for his soul to be reaped, then resurrect him and take him as a vessel? After all, isn't Sam his one true vessel?

In Season 6, when Dean was trying to figure out what was wrong with Sam, one of the things he mentioned to Castiel was that Sam might be "gift wrap for Lucifer". Castiel told him no, the angels would feel it if Lucifer escaped the cage. So won't the other angels know that Lucifer has escaped the cage?

These types of inconsistencies really take me out of the story and have been happening all too frequently under Carver. And I'm not talking about what I'd consider to be small issues, such as the Grand Canyon thing; to me, that was minor and is bound to happen when a show's been on the air for 11 years. I also think these shortcuts/handw aving of canon is cheapening and lessening the importance of Season 4 and Season 5 under Kripke. Just my long-winded opinion :)
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-22 12:51
Quote:
If this is the way it worked, then why wouldn't Lucifer kill Sam and wait for his soul to be reaped, then resurrect him and take him as a vessel? After all, isn't Sam his one true vessel?
I see the difference being that Jimmy willing gave his body/vessel to an angel. Jimmy said "yes" to Cas then Cas said "yes" to Lucifer. Sam's dead body would still be protected by his "no".

The issue of the deteriorating vessel because of the archangel's power (or angel+archangel ) is valid. I would hope the writers address that. I wouldn't have expected Jimmy's body to explode (it has survived Castiel) but I remember Michael saying about one of Raphael's discarded bodies, "at least I don't leave them a sniveling mess". Maybe Castiel is using his power to hold the body together for the archangel? Gadreel was healing Sam's body from within, cell by cell. Castiel could be doing the same.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 13:19
Quote:
I see the difference being that Jimmy willing gave his body/vessel to an angel. Jimmy said "yes" to Cas then Cas said "yes" to Lucifer. Sam's dead body would still be protected by his "no".
This is exactly how I see it. It is a significant distinction IMO.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-22 13:28
True but according to Kripke, and Kripke is God, angels must take human hosts for vessels. Does that mean Castiel is human? I am so confused. And, for the record, I think a soulless Sam would say yes to Lucifer in a heartbeat :):)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 13:48
See my reply below! Misplaced comment syndrome:)
LEAH
# LEAH 2016-01-22 14:49
The heartbreak of MCS. We have all suffered at times from it.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 15:40
I feel so ashamed of this affliction. Is there a support group for it? :)
LEAH
# LEAH 2016-01-22 16:00
Not that I know of, the shame is still so great that people are reluctant to come forward. I am there for you though Samandean, you brave little angel.

:D We better stop before we get in trouble for drifting off tpoic
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 16:09
Yes, we have indeed drifted off-topic, but I will always treasure being called a brave little angel!:) Actually, doesn't your comment bring our little exchange back ON topic? Angels are certainly relevant to the discussion.;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-22 13:54
Great explanation of the possession problem of a dead meat suit. I think Cas is unique among all angels. I don't recall any other angel since S4 who has occupied the same body for so long. God keeps resurrecting Cas. He isn't Jimmy anymore he is Castiel and very different from any other angel. He owns his own human body and has for a long time. I think that Cas may have been the target all along for Lucifer.

By the way I will miss your threads articles. They were my favorite threads to read.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-22 22:02
Actually, Gabriel has been in his vessel for thousands of years. Or, at least I imagine he's been "hiding" from his family as Loki/The Trickster for at least that long. According to what I know, Gabriel is the angel that came to Mary. So, I was always under the impression that he "ran away from home/heaven" some time shortly after that. But, who knows, really. Regardless, he's definitely been in his vessel far longer than Castiel has been in his.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-23 17:46
I remember he was in the janitor in S1. But I don't remember any explanation for his current meat suit.
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-24 07:49
Quote:
He owns his own human body and has for a long time.
You reminded me of something!! When Castiel's grace was stolen, Cas was human! He didn't have a soul but he was a powered-down angel, living as a human. Weren't there times (specific lines of dialog) that he, the brothers or Metatron actually said he was human? That may solve the "angels must possess humans" problem.
Bottom Line is that I have no problem with him granting consent for Lucifer to inhabit the Jimmy-looking body. It is Castiel's body now both through Jimmy's consent and through Castiel's time as a human. The only issue I see is the overwhelming angel power inside that body. I have to go with the theory that Cas is holding it together for Lucifer.

Regarding missing the full Threads - thank you for letting me know. It really helps to have the feedback. This is still an experiment. I may go back to full Threads by the end of the season, or for S12. I have a publishing deadline in a few months that needs all my time so a smaller review is all I can squeeze into my schedule right now.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-27 17:29
Metatron mentioned to Castiel that he had a soul. He said "get a wife, and when you die, and your SOUL comes to heaven, i want you to find me and tell me your story."

I think when Metatron stole Cas's grace, a soul was made (somehow, please don't ask me how. Haha) and he was in fact human, not just a powered down angel.

But also, I'm not in sure what all the fuss is about. In season 9, when Gadreel was taking over Sam, Dean told Cas to go into Sam and get Gadreel out. Cas said he couldn't even if he wanted to because he needed consent. But then Crowley stepped up and went into Sam. So, even back in season 9, they were mentioning how two angels could possess a single body. As for the body itself, Cas's body is a human body. It belongs to Cas now. Jimmy gave his consent and when he died, Cas inherited it. It's Cas's body now, so any new angel that wants in, Lucy included, would need Cas's permission. To me, that's the simplest explanation and makes the most sense.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-27 18:11
I think ScifiSpirit has the best explanation for the consent issue so far.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-28 13:30
Quote:
I think ScifiSpirit has the best explanation for the consent issue so far.
Thank you kindly! I posted it somewhere before, cant remember where, but my thoughts are that every being has a consciousness. And that the consciousness can be attached to a human soul, demon spirit, angel grace, monster soul/spirit, or not attached to anything at all. It can just exist in a body, which explains how Sam or any human could operate without a soul. And I have always seen it as an angel needing permission from the *consciousness* to take possession since that is what *owns* the body, not the soul or grace or anything else. Jimmy gave Castiel permission. When he died, Castiel inherited the body. Now Castiels consciousness owns that body and it is his permission that is needed for another angel to take possession. And so what if there are two graces in one body? In season 9, we had a human soul, Gadreels grace, and Crowleys demon spirit all in Sams body, so... nothing new there. To me, the reasoning seems to fit - every being has a *consciousness* and that is what owns the body, and the soul/grace/spir it is just something that resides in the body. But who knows if its really the case with what the writers are giving us. lol. I hope it is! lol
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2016-01-22 12:12
A lot of things has been going on in the 11 years the show has been on. Some things like what happened in season 4 and 5 are the past. Things have changed and the Winchesters know a lot more than they knew back then. So why can't the story follow the growth? I am sure that Lucifer didn't know in season five that the angels will fall and loose their wings? Or that an angel is made a human angel hybrid that has no soul but has an presence? They showed us that Cas can be a vessel and it works because he is different than a human vessel. The vessel must be a stronger one because it is not Jimmy's body anymore. It was blasted, gone. And this is even easier to say than pile up how many times Cas has been resurrected, but the main reason is that he was blasted in sub atomic level. Jimmy and his soul was in that instant gone. Rafael blasted Cas, Lucifer totally destroyed him. Leviathans made him explode after he had been God. He was turned to human. No soul but Cas's presence stayed when Metatron did it. He used other angels grace to keep him as an angel and now he is used as a vessel to an archangel and we will see if he survives it. If you look at these facts and Cas's past this is only new knowledge. I am just surprised Lucifer needed to ask Cas's permission as technically he does not have a soul just a presence, soul like grace. (Cas's memories, personality etc). It does not diminish what happened in season 5 because then these events were not possible. I do agree that Cas saying yes is fishy but like one said upwards. Amara did say she has a task for him. Maybe it was not only the message on his chest? Anyway, this might be an interesting story for Cas and it ties him also to the arc. I am all for it.

With what njspnfan said about killing Sam and just taking the vessel I don't see it the same thing because Cas has his presence there and he is a creature himself. So no, he would not be able to do that for Sam. :) Also:

Quote:
A bit of a canon issue with the smiting sickness; when Castiel told Dean the last time this happened, Lot's wife was turned to salt (which kind of matches the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible). In 6.03, The Third Man, Lot's Salt (Salt Crystal) was used as an angelic weapon by Balthazar to turn Raphael's vessel in to a pillar of salt in order to save Castiel. This one didn't bug me much but the entire archangel vessel thing is a big problem.
Nice catch! But if the smiting happened and it salted the place and created the salt crystal how wouldn't it be an angelic weapon if they got it from there? That it was a side effect of a smiting or something. Or what do you mean? I think nothing turned to salt now but it did make the effect that on daytime was night.

Same thing is the door to hell. We have never seen how reapers deliver souls to heaven and hell. Like Nightsky said the door to hell was introduced in season 2 already and that was the only one they knew then, then came the rogue reapers and the door to purgatory. I don't touch the rogue part but point was that a door was shown. That was actually pretty awesome the painted wall (artist self is speaking) and now it was shown with normal reaper. I don't think Billie is a rogue reaper because she said "I am not working for him. I am working with him" Of course reapers work with heaven and hell because they deliver souls to both places. And she was the reaper luckily Crowley knew and send Dean to.

Things grow and evolve and the story moves on. I only see we were shown evolved canon that is possible even if you like it or not. And I don't actually believe that Rowena is dead. I at least hope she was not stupid enough to protect herself with a spell or something because they have not shown she is stupid. Season 10 finale is a good example when she escaped but we will see. It was a nice effect that the darkness was released on the smiting and how it gathered back inside Amara. Pretty nice effect

Don't know if what I wrote made sense but it does to me so didn't see them canon stomping on this.

- Lilah
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-22 13:20
I'm not talking about growth, we're talking about logically building upon existing canon; a lot more care used to be taken on this. Kripke and Gamble were far from perfect and, while it may not present an issue to you, Carver does a terrible job and some of us do care about it. If you're going to build a world, at least be consistent in the rules you follow.

In 10x09 The Things We Left Behind, we find out that Jimmy died when Castiel was killed by an archangel, and his soul went to heaven when God resurrected Castiel. So that begs the question; when did Jimmy's soul go to heaven? Castiel was killed by an archangel a couple of times (5.01 and 5.22) but, in the Bloody Valentine episode, Castiel was in the presence of Famine and started devouring hamburgers. Famine said that "hunger doesn't come just from the body, it also comes from the soul". So that kind of means that Jimmy was still there, doesn't it? So I guess Jimmy left the building when Lucifer kill Castiel in Swan Song?

In Season 4's Official Companion, Eric Kripke said angels need to use human hosts (see quote below). So does that mean Castiel is a human or not? Or does this get a hand wave because of God's intervention? Clearly I'm giving this more thought than the show runner

"The most unique element about angels (in Supernatural) that isn't in typical lore is the notion that they have to possess. They control a human host in much the same way demons do. The only difference is that angels have to ask permission and demons don't. That provided us with all sorts of morality plays to work through because angels are nominally good, but they are putting human victims through this horrific experience just because the humans were devout enough to give their will away."
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2016-01-22 13:43
Hmmm, well Cas's body is human originally like Anna's was when it was returned to them. Cas's presence is the difference. And I think Cas said the hunger was from Jimmy, but it wasn't said it wasn't left to him if the soul was gone or the soul still there. So even if the soul was gone the craving still would be there as they were part once and Jimmy's body was made as it was for Cas. But I guess it is a matter of opinion and how you interpret the words. The quote is down about the famine. Even if Jimmy is now in heaven I believe Castiel would still have same appetite for red meat. It is the effect of the vessel. But I understand your take too.

Quote:
Dean: Okay, but what about you? I mean, since when do angels secretly hunger for White Castle?
Castiel: It's my vessel -- Jimmy. His, uh, appetite for red meat has been touched by Famine's effect.
Dean: So, Famine just rolls into town and everybody goes crazy?
- Lilah
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2016-01-22 18:51
What you said does make sense! The way I see it is that every "being" (for lack of a better term) has a consciousness. And that consciousness can be attached to a soul, Grace, demonic spirit/soul, or monster spirit/soul, or not attached to anything. It can just be in a body on its own. This is truly the ONLY way I can explain how Sam could even exist without his soul in season 6, (or anyone for that matter) or how Cas could still "be Cas " without his Grace. And I've always believed that it was *the consciousness's * permission that was needed to say yes to an angel, not the soul's permission or the Grace's permission. So for an Angel to enter anyone, soul or not, Grace or not, it's the INDIVIDUAL that has to say yes (i.e. the conscious), because that's who/what "owns the body". The soul doesn't have ownership over the body, nor does the Grace.... Does that make sense? Gee, I hope it does because it truly and totally makes sense to me.

So, based on what I'm saying, an angel could have totally possessed soulless Sam (just assuming that he would actually say Yes, for example). And this also goes along with what Lucifer (and a few other Angels) said that "only the meat suit is needed". So, once a person says "yes", they could die and their soul could move on, but the body, at that point, has been handed over.

This is why, according to me, lol, Lucifer totally needed Cas's permission. Because it is Castiel's consciousness that owns that body now. It has absolutely nothing to do with his Grace or Jimmy's former soul. When Jimmy's consciousness was in the body, Cas needed his permission. When Jimmy died, Cas inherited the body. Now, it's Castiel's body, so his consciousness gets to call the shots. And if another angel wants in and wants to possess it, they need his permission. Has nothing to do with a Grace or soul or anything.

Also, when Metatron removed Cas's Grace in heaven, he said to him "...and when you die and your soul comes to heaven, I want you to find me and tell me your story". So, either it was a part of Metatrons spell or something else that happens, but according to Metatron's words, Cas did have a soul once his Grace was removed. And maybe that's a thing? Maybe if an Angel removes his/her Grace, or it gets removed from him/her, it's considered like a form of Falling - becoming more human and less angel. I could totally buy that. Because it seemed to me that Anna had a soul seeing as she was born on earth and was a normal girl for a while as she grew. She ripped her own Grace out causing her to fall from heaven. She was human, but with powers, like the angel radio. Same as Cas was when he was human. My big question has always been: "When Cas got his Grace back, did his soul just go away or get absorbed, or does he still have one somehow?!"
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 13:44
Quote:
True but according to Kripke, and Kripke is God, angels must take human hosts for vessels
Yes, but the ACTUAL God in the show (if that makes any sense) went out of his way to reassemble Cas's (now empty) human meatsuit after Luci exploded it and sent Jimmy to heaven.
Which brings me back to my position that Cas and his vessel are the special exception to the rule. If Cas is able to inhabit this special, empty meatsuit, why wouldn't Luci be able to? "God trumps canon" has become my new mantra. Or should that be "God creates canon"?

Oops, I meant to make this a reply to your comment njspnfan.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-22 14:57
no worries... sorry I'm being cranky about this but Carver's callous disregard of such things really pisses me off. And it doesn't take long exposition scenes to fix, either.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 15:26
It's true that so many of the instances of canon-busting events and scenes could have been easily avoided by just adding a few lines of dialogue. That TPTB don't bother to do this indicates that either: they don't realize they're contradicting canon; they realize what they're doing but don't think the viewers will notice; or they don't give a damn! I hope it's the first possibility, but I suspect it's the third possibility. And some of it makes me cranky too.:)
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-24 08:05
Actually, there's a 4th possibility: that the lines to explain the canon were cut for time by the editor. Several times Jared and Jensen have said at conventions that they filmed lines and then were surprised when fans tell them those lines weren't in the episode. Some of the lines have been extremely important to fans. I give the writers credit for putting in the lines but the editors have a hard and unforgiving 42 min cap. I believe the writers think of these things and are usually very thorough, but some of it gets lost in translation to film.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-24 09:40
Huh, that hadn't occurred to me Nightsky. I guess in the interests of a tighter, more exciting ep I could see the editors cutting some exposition, perhaps in the belief that the serious fans don't need everything spelled out and that we can fill in the blanks, which is true--to a point. But when the exposition relates directly to some important bit of canon, I would think that they would choose to spell things out. Although maybe their opinion of what's important differs from mine!:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-24 15:21
Exactly. This is something a lot of people don't even take into consideration. We've all seen the cut scenes on the DVDs and usually the consensus is that the right choice was made but I would imagine that what we are shown is only one out of the many we didn't see.
Didi
# Didi 2016-01-24 15:53
I wonder if the writer and/or Carver need to give approval of the final cut? I've always assumed the final cut needs to be signed off on by someone involved in the storytelling process and not just left up to the editors to hack away at will.

I guess I just always pictured it as a collaborative process where the writer and director are in the editing room as well and everyone is working together.
JJA
# JJA 2016-01-22 15:02
Is it just me, or has Colin Ford grown up into quite the handsome young man?

Hey CW & WB! Colin Ford & Dylan Everett would be great lead for a "Young Sam & Dean Adventures" series.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-22 19:40
Now, that would be cool and worth watching.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-22 19:05
Nightsky, thanks for your article, they are always fascinating both in old and new format. A couple of considerations.
Quote:
Sam’s guilt over Amelia is what kept him from closing the Gates of Hell (season 8)? Really? I thought it was for love of his brother when Dean begged Sam to not die. Lucifer could have been lying to Sam to taunt him to say ‘Yes’ but I am very, very tired of people throwing that period of Sam’s life back at him like it was an inexcusable, blatant, undeniable mistake.
It seems to me that what Dabb did is justified every Sam's actions which caused questions from part of the fans. Sam didn't look for Dean because he promised not to, he just followed Dean's wish despite his own wants and dispite his wishes. It was confirmed in this episode in no uncertain terms. Sam thought that closing the Hell gates should be done and didn't close them only because he felt guilt before Dean and didn't want to let him down again, it wasn't his decision not to close them, it was his following Dean's decision. His words in season 9 make much more sense, don't they?
Quote:
Just like Lucifer’s lecture to Sam about being weak
Every time Sam gets that lecture, (and that lecture is not new, the first one was given by Dean in Point of no return, the second by Tortured!Sam in 6 season finale, the third was given by Gadriel seconds before he was kicked away by Sam from Sam's body) he proves otherwise. It is an old tradition of this show, like Dean being splashed with holy water.
Quote:
I’m not yet 100% sure Sam’s visions were from Lucifer…
Neither do I... We still have only Luci's words, and that's not enough for me. Moreover, Lucifer's words: "He has never been with you. It was always me" make me doubt his words even more.
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-01-22 23:53
I agree about your interpretation of Sam's guilt. He stopped closing the Gates of Hell because he loved Dean and felt guilty for not looking for him. He didn't feel guilty about Amelia only about letting down Dean.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 22:04
Welcome back Nightsky, I hope you had a very happy holiday break. It's been a long Hellatus this time around, but I must say after two watches, it was very much worth the wait.
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-01-23 00:00
Cas: "You think I’m afraid to die?"
Amara: "I know you are. You reek of fear and self-loathing.”


I think that Amara can smell the emotions, but doesn't understand the underlying motivation of those emotions. I don't think Cas is afraid to die. I think he is afraid that he is expendable and that he has left such a mess in his wake. He was just reminded that in the eyes of many if not most angels, he's an angel killer. He's be reminded that Sam and Dean make the ultimate saves, while he is only a "helper". So I don't think he fears death, but he is afraid of being useless and being only seen as a murderer of his brethren.

I also think that having him watching Netflix off screen for weeks at at time gives us insight into his emotional state. Not engaging in normal activities and hiding out in a room are signs of depression and/or PTSD. The writers may have been hinting at a mental health crisis for Cas with the watching Netflix story line. It fits into a mindset that doesn't mind being destroyed/subju gated to save the world.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-23 19:52
I must say this episode certainly had my mind swimming but before I bore you with all my theories, I just want to first sing high praises to everyone involved in tonight's episode. It was an enticing episode that grabbed you by the boot straps and did not let go...not for a second. Everyone brought their A game and every emotion one can feel all at once...I think was felt during this episode. I must confess that for me, the MVP player award for the night belongs to Jared and Mark P, as I saw them as a unit, for what was a gut wrenching, nail biting, stand up and cheer performance that left you in a state of goodness.

I will admit that I could not make any sense how or why Dean found out about the church murders and then would simply just take off on Sam, given the circumstances. It nagged on me for most of the hellatus. Thanks to Andrew Dabb, what made no sense what so ever now seems plausible and understandable, and Dabb did it in such a subtle way, I wonder if anyone else had noticed. Dean had said to Cas, if it worked then when you go bring back Amara's body and if it didn't run. I believe twice Dean used the term "if it worked" and that got me to thinking....was the angel smiting actually a plan? It seemed odd that Cas wasn't involved in Brother Where Art Though and a lot of people had taken notice to that. After watching tonight's ep and listening to Dean and Cas, it has me believing that there was a plan discussed between all of them. I think Dean and Sam went in knowing that Dean would go off. That it was actually preplanned and I think Cas may have been keeping tabs on the angels and informed Dean off screen of the church murders. Judging from the call from Crowley, it seemed to me that Crowley was supposed to make sure everything stayed kosher on the Luci front. That's my take on it and I'm sticking to it.


Now was anyone else curious by the fact that Cas for apparently no reason stayed behind while Ambriel went off on her own, and ending up having her soul sucked out? I can't help but wonder if Cas might have been affected as well by the smiting sickness, or at the very most by the darkness that had consumed the afternoon. I also wonder if Amara didn't do more than leave a message on Cas's body. This leads me to my theory regarding Luci/Amara..... I thought the message "I am coming" wasn't regarding Amara, but it was regarding Lucifer. I have this theory that Amara and Luci are bonded, as Amara is the Darkness and Luci is the original bearer of the MOC. My theory is that Amara corrupted Luci and the reason banished Amara to wherever she was, and Lucifer to the cage, was to prevent Amara and Lucifer from destroying the world he'd created. I think God didn't banish Luci so much to punish him as it was to protect him and the rest of the world. Lucifer had the lock/key, and under Amara's corrupting influence, Lucifer could've unlocked her from what might have been her cage. If Luci was able to send Sam visions ( though I still don't think the one from Baby is from Luci) and if he can even get to Rowena as we learned he had, then I can't see why Amara and Luci can't have been in contact with ea. other. I don't think Sam was the one Luci was after....I think Amara/Luci had wanted Cas all along.

There's a lot of debate as to how Luci and Cas can reside in the same vessel, but I don't think Cas and Luci are in the same vessel, I think Cas is in the cage. What got me believing that is Luci asking Rowena if there was anyone else who can open the cage. He killed her because he didn't want to go back in and he didn't want Cas to get out. Cas saying yes to Luci....I can't help but wonder if Amara's touch had something to do with that, because it just doesn't ring true that Cas believing himself expendable would be reason for him to allow Luci free.

I really enjoyed the walk down memory lane and I found this to be so very important. Like Zachariah had tried with Dean, if it was Luci's intent to break Sam to say yes by pointing out all that was deemed weak, Luci in fact proved to Sam the opposite. Luci tried to manipulate Sam into believing he wasn't strong enough to fight the Darkness. He tried to show that Sam was weak and he did so by showing Sam his most decisive moments and the one moment in which Sam had temporarily been damaged...not broken....damag ed. He had pointed out that choosing to be with Amelia and Riot was the defining moment in which Sam lost all his fight. By pointing out that Sam hadn't looked for Dean and because of that his guilt took over, and for that reason he moved heaven and earth to save his brother, damn the rest of the world. He tried to make Sam believe that he was weak and he no longer cared about everyone, that he just cared about his own family. Luci thought he had Sam...he thought he broke him, but to Luci's surprise, Sam's rebuttal was a big fat "no". Not only did Sam see through all that manipulation, but Sam, for the first time has come to the realization, that he is strong enough. He gets that Luci wasn't wrong, guilt did drive Sam and the result was the unleashing of the Darkness. Sam also realizes that he'd done what he needed to do to make Dean understand that he loves him, he no longer has to prove or atone to Dean....so Sam is ready to die to make things right, he is ready to watch his family die to make things right...he's proved himself already, he no longer has to fear disappointing his brother or feeling like he failed his brother....The boys are now at a point where there is no need to prove their love...it's their, it's strong and it's unbreakable. Sam's faith in his family, his friends, himself and I still believe even in God is as strong in him now as it's always been....and Luci has underestimated Sam's strength once again....I think this could very well be foreshadowing of Luci and Amara's downfall....the bad guys never seem to understand the power of the Winchester bond....with the exception of Crowley.


I was sorry to see Rowena get killed. I liked her and her character, but I kind of wonder if we've actually seen the last of Rowena. I mean wouldn't it make sense that once she dies, she would go to hell and ultimately end up a demon? Isn't that what happened to Ruby? She was a witch as a human and then when she died she ended up on hell, where she eventually became a puff of demon smoke? I feel like Rowena might not necessarily be gone gone.

I just kind of wanted to explain too why I don't believe that all the visions were from Luci. While two of the visions were of Sam's torture in the Cage, the one vision with Not John was more of message with a warning. Not John told Sam in the vision that "he could never fool him". It kind of makes sense given what we saw in this eppy and Luci's attempt at manipulating Sam into saying "yes". In the end, Sam wasn't fooled by Luci at all. Plus, Luci is in Cas now, so it stands to reason that Sam, given that he spent a century with Luci, might recognize Luci's attributes in Cas. The message also noted that God helps those who help themselves...wh ich Sam seemed to take to heart as he declared his faith in his brother, his friends and even in himself. I still think there's someone else in play here and I kind of have my money on it being Gabriel.

I really enjoyed seeing Billie again, and I do believe she might be more than she's saying. I do think she's gone out of her way twice now to help the Winchesters. I don't think that the boys will be able to ice the Devil or Amara, which has me sticking to my theory that the only way to stop them is for the boys to somehow send them both to the Empty. Given that strange alliances are being formed, I do think it's possible for the Winchesters to succeed....give n that I think Cas is in the cage...my only question is, will Cas ever be reunited with his vessel again?
nightsky
# nightsky 2016-01-24 08:19
Quote:
I think Cas is in the cage. What got me believing that is Luci asking Rowena if there was anyone else who can open the cage. He killed her because he didn't want to go back in and he didn't want Cas to get out.
So they exchanged bodies? Castiel is in Nick's body in the cage; Lucifer is in Jimmy's body running around free. Very, very interesting possibility! That would solve the body exploding issue a little (still archangel vs angel vessel but we're getting closer). I picked up on his question to Rowena (in my review I said I 'presume' why he asked the question) but I didn't have time to really consider it. I've added that to the official theory list. (I think someone else may have mentioned it too.)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-24 08:29
That can't be possible. Nick's body rotted in Detroit long ago. What Sam and others saw in that cage is just a representation, because human perseption is limited and our mind tried to reduce inconcievable to the known images. Zachariah said about that:
ZACHARIAH: In heaven, I have six wings and four faces, one of whom is a lion. You see this because you’re…
Zachariah breaks off to run his fingers down Mary’s arm. It’s Sam who can’t watch this time.
ZACHARIAH: (continuing) ...limited.
The same way we saw Dean in the Hell, though it was only his soul, or Sam in the Cage, though it was only his soul, Bobby in Hell and Purgatory, though it was only his soul.
Sugarhi15
# Sugarhi15 2016-01-24 08:45
I dont think it a body switch, i think it was a soul/grace or whatever it is that goes to heaven or hell is. Whatever cas true heavenlyy visage is is whats in the cage, its only from the human perspective that
We see human form.
Cathy
# Cathy 2016-01-24 06:23
Has anyone noticed how much the Darkness is like Dean? Almost like the female version of Dean, some of the things she says and the way she says them like, "barely scratched my top coat" . I wonder if because she is bonded to Dean and was with him as the mark.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-24 09:06
I don't see any similarities to Dean, but I do see similarities to Lucifer. Both Amara and Lucifer seem to have the exact same gripe with God, for both Luci and Amara it's jealousy. For both Luci and Amara it's an "I want it my way or the highway" situation. It's why I think Luci is bound to Amara, that she is the one who corrupted him. Luci's jealousy was always there, she just reinforced it .....God entrusted Luci with the mark after they trapped her. But after all that, God made humans and wanted the angels to bow to them/us. Luci, prone to jealousy as he was the most glorious and adored by God of all the angels, got jealous and refused...but by this point he'd already bore the lock/key which amara had corrupted. Her feelings towards God, became Luci's feelings towards God. It's as though Luci were her voice, her puppet from within her cell. I still believe that God sent Luci to the cage, not because he refused to bow to humans, but God saw that Luci, who is the one entrusted with the lock was becoming corrupted by Amara....so God put Luci in the cage...

I know Cas could've been feeling all those things and Amara sensed it...which is why I think her touching him wasn't just about sending a message....afte r all why would she send a message that says "I am coming" when she's already been here. It's why I think the message was about Lucifer....Luci fer is coming, because after all he's the one who's been trapped in the cage all this time. He's the one making a return....which I kind of think Amara and Luci planned on....:o
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-24 15:30
Yeah but then wouldnt she write "HE IS COMING" on Cas then seeing as she would not be referring to herself? Or maybe more appropniately, "WE ARE COMING" aka "YOU BITCHES BE IN TROUBLE NOW!!!" ;) I suppose she was brief because she didn't have much room to write on...